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With the rumors of an impending 11th Edition and a new Codex, is it best for me to wait a couple months to see what changes before heavily investing in an army?

Or should I just build what I want and hope that it's still usable in the near future? (While assuming things like Detachments will change or be removed).

It depends on what you intend to use the army for.

If you intend it for tournament play and meta chasing then you should wait a bit until 11th and the new meta is discovered.

If you want to use it more for fun and casual games then you can start right away and just get what ever you want. The thing about Space Marines is that they are the generalist army of the game and because they are the most popular pretty much everything (the older stuff, fortifications and flyers notwithstanding) is viable and can be used even at their worst.

As long as you magnetize everything, you can always change loadouts for every edition going forward

Historically, it's always been a good time to build space marines, and got new models in every launch/starter box. Beginning in 8th, with the shift to primaris, Marines began getting new units, not just new models, and with it new ways to play. there was a slow loss of firstborn units. Then, with 10th, Space Marines lost a large swathe of the remaining first born, keeping only Tacticals, Devestators, Vanguard Vets, and the Rhino/Razorback.

The smart money is that those final firstborn holdouts will be gone, possibly to be replaced either directly (like sternguard or terminators) or very closely (like assault intercessors with jump packs replacing assualt marines). Further, Stormcast in AOS had a surprise cull of relatively recent models. Marines are even more bloated, so I'd guess some stuff might get the ax.

What I would say is start with stuff you know isn't going anywhere, and build one of each unit. Stick with releases from the last two editions. Paint what you like, since there's no way of knowing what will be good.

IMO its almost always a good time to build an army, SM or otherwise.

But I play games in the here & now and am confident that I can make whatever I have work no matter what changes come along.

If i wanted to build a new army & the next edition was 6 months away (& it is, so mark your calender)?
I'd build & play the army.

Depends how niche your choices are and how bothered you will be if they are bad/unplayable.

If for example you went all/only terminators it's a potential risk.

It's also possible that Intercessors say are due a reprint. Would that annoy you if you got some now?

I'd say don't heavily invest in an army. Pick up a squad you like, make it, paint it. Then do another one, and another one.

By the time the new edition rolls around you won't have invested that heavily but you'll have a little start and can pick up the starter box and add to it.

If you're worried about stuff going obsolete just pick more recent kits and you'll probably be fine.

Right now I have the contents of the Dawn of War: Onslaught box

3 × Eradicators, 3 × Bladeguard Veterans, 1× Bladeguard Ancient, 1 × Judiciar, 1 × Chaplain.

(Still haven't decided on what chapter to paint them up as)

But I'm wary of spending money on units I won't be able to use in the foreseeable future.

I was burned badly by the Great Stormcast Eternal Purge in AoS.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Right now I have the contents of the Dawn of War: Onslaught box

3 × Eradicators, 3 × Bladeguard Veterans, 1× Bladeguard Ancient, 1 × Judiciar, 1 × Chaplain.

(Still haven't decided on what chapter to paint them up as)

But I'm wary of spending money on units I won't be able to use in the foreseeable future.

I was burned badly by the Great Stormcast Eternal Purge in AoS.

The only reason you were burned is because you choose not to use Legends.

ccs wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Right now I have the contents of the Dawn of War: Onslaught box

3 × Eradicators, 3 × Bladeguard Veterans, 1× Bladeguard Ancient, 1 × Judiciar, 1 × Chaplain.

(Still haven't decided on what chapter to paint them up as)

But I'm wary of spending money on units I won't be able to use in the foreseeable future.

I was burned badly by the Great Stormcast Eternal Purge in AoS.

The only reason you were burned is because you choose not to use Legends.

Sadly, it isn't up to me.

I have a Warhammer store and an Unfriendly Local Game Store. I either leave the Legends rules at home or not play.

Those are my options.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Right now I have the contents of the Dawn of War: Onslaught box

3 × Eradicators, 3 × Bladeguard Veterans, 1× Bladeguard Ancient, 1 × Judiciar, 1 × Chaplain.

(Still haven't decided on what chapter to paint them up as)

But I'm wary of spending money on units I won't be able to use in the foreseeable future.

I was burned badly by the Great Stormcast Eternal Purge in AoS.

The only reason you were burned is because you choose not to use Legends.

Sadly, it isn't up to me.

I have a Warhammer store and an Unfriendly Local Game Store. I either leave the Legends rules at home or not play.

Those are my options.

Sounds like you need to make the Unfriendly Local Game Store friendlier.
Offer to run the next Crusade/Path to Glory. And since your the organizer, authorize Legends.

 Polonius wrote:
Historically, it's always been a good time to build space marines, and got new models in every launch/starter box. Beginning in 8th, with the shift to primaris, Marines began getting new units, not just new models, and with it new ways to play. there was a slow loss of firstborn units. Then, with 10th, Space Marines lost a large swathe of the remaining first born, keeping only Tacticals, Devestators, Vanguard Vets, and the Rhino/Razorback.

The smart money is that those final firstborn holdouts will be gone, possibly to be replaced either directly (like sternguard or terminators) or very closely (like assault intercessors with jump packs replacing assualt marines). Further, Stormcast in AOS had a surprise cull of relatively recent models. Marines are even more bloated, so I'd guess some stuff might get the ax.

What I would say is start with stuff you know isn't going anywhere, and build one of each unit. Stick with releases from the last two editions. Paint what you like, since there's no way of knowing what will be good.

I think they lose the Tacticals, but keep the Devastators. I don't think GW has enough goodwill and time left to continue replacing the devs one "element" (Bolter, Plasma, Melta, Las, Flamer, Grav, etc) at a time. Devs cross the rubicon in 11th is my guess and Tacs disappear.

I also think now is a pretty good time to make a new Marine army. As mentioned, there's about to be a whole lof of cheap models available with the Starter Sets and Pre-Starter Set (Assuming they replay Leviathan plans) Supposedly the next set (and thus the meta Games Workshop THINKS they're going to build around is Fast Attack. GW is not always correct. I think they thought everyone was going to love Terminators (And Elites in Sternguard) in 10th. This did not happen.

Breton wrote:
I think they lose the Tacticals, but keep the Devastators. I don't think GW has enough goodwill and time left to continue replacing the devs one "element" (Bolter, Plasma, Melta, Las, Flamer, Grav, etc) at a time. Devs cross the rubicon in 11th is my guess and Tacs disappear.

I also think now is a pretty good time to make a new Marine army. As mentioned, there's about to be a whole lof of cheap models available with the Starter Sets and Pre-Starter Set (Assuming they replay Leviathan plans) Supposedly the next set (and thus the meta Games Workshop THINKS they're going to build around is Fast Attack. GW is not always correct. I think they thought everyone was going to love Terminators (And Elites in Sternguard) in 10th. This did not happen.

This might be hard crazy - but I almost think the opposite. Its now been long enough for GW to bring back Tactical Marines.
I mean they'd be Intercessor Mk 10 or whatever models, but with a range of weapon options.

Or they could re-do the Intercessor kit.

There doesn't have to be a "basic MEQ troops(ish) unit" in the not-starter licence to print money box, but it seems like a weird omission otherwise.

It's always a good time to build an army, what will be competative or good in the next edition I don't know, if the game was as balanced as people say then no units would be bad and you should be able to have a good army/comppsition with just about anything.

If you are building an army with modern kits, and don’t care about being bleeding edge efficient, go for it. Things will change, rules will shift. Change is a constant that holds true every edition. What’s hot will shift. Things will be nerfed in giant pendulum swings. But models, for the most part, endure.

One thing I’d suggest is keeping to the main theme of marines. Don’t collect for a detachment that is legal now, but not “classically” how marines play. The more you slide into niche builds, the more likely you are to be burnt.

Buy models you like, not for their rules. Rules change. But marines generally do what they say on the tin. So if you buy a unit to do something, it should still get the job done in the next edition. Might not be the best choice for the job, or most efficient. But it should still work.

At this point I’d avoid firstborn units, older vehicles, and some odd things like old push-fit primaris. Not to say they are going to legends, but the odds are higher. We won’t know for months what to watch for but there is a lot of stuff out there that should be mostly “safe” you ccan start with.

I kept with the "main theme" of Marines and feel like I'm watching them get phased out anyways.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I kept with the "main theme" of Marines and feel like I'm watching them get phased out anyways.

What he said. Devs, and pretty much the entire marine army losing access to Heavy Flamers (besides some vehicles) was a dick move, also, jump pack assault squad lost its teeth by dropping the better sergeant weapon options and eviscerator disappearing, and is now only viable in larger squads and with some wombo combos granting LETHAL HITS or some other gimmick. Now you're supposed to use aggressors or those leviathan box snapfit dudes as your flame deterrent unit, and idk even what to use if you want a hard hitting assault unit without it costing a shed load of points.

Standard terminators have been very meh, the new Assault termies hit hard but also cost quite a bit of points.

Overall, I feel like the classic marine force from 2nd edition times (tac/dev/assault, termies) is no longer viable on modern tables. Which makes me a sad Panda

If you want a Marine army which wont get invalidated in 11th, go for the newer kit releases, and stick to the loadouts that come in the kit, even if this makes for a relatively bland feeling army. Only pick your characters once you've seen the codex, since those buffs the characters will give you will probably be a huge deal once again...

You can still get HFs in a few places, Terminators, sternguard. Less of them in places like Land Speeders and on dreadnought fists. They were never common, but I did scatter a few around in the old times.

My big hope for 11th is a new tac/dev redo and a return to old. They could reduce bloat by consolidating some units entries, and return a lot of the classic lore and nostalgia mine us old hands. Not holding my breath, hope is the first step on the road to disappointment, etc.

One advantage of No Model, No Rules is that is helps somewhat with edition transitions. There should be less cases of someone’s lovely bike command squad they scrounged the parts for going away. (Even if just to legends). You built the box, you can probably still play the box. Probably, nothing is certain.

I feel you guys about the game moving away. I’ve been here from the start, have a lot of old metal on the shelves that just gets dusty these days. I like my squads 10 man, and my companies with a 6/2/2 split. Building armies with a little bit from every FOC slot. My comment on theme was really a warning about gimmick lists. If your army pushes the norms for the lore, and requires a specific rule to work on the table, that’s a danger of getting lost in the translation. But the lore and rules are moving targets. So nothing is promised.

But old editions still get played, cool models remain cool, and counts-as and legends are things in friendly play.

So, things to avoid: devastators, tactical Marines, rhino, whirlwind, predator, razorback, land raider, Vanguard Vets, any "Legends" marine vehicles or characters?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
So, things to avoid: devastators, tactical Marines, rhino, whirlwind, predator, razorback, land raider, Vanguard Vets, any "Legends" marine vehicles or characters?

Don't forget Flyers/Aircraft.
Those are always on people's lists of things that'll certainly go away soon.

ccs wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
So, things to avoid: devastators, tactical Marines, rhino, whirlwind, predator, razorback, land raider, Vanguard Vets, any "Legends" marine vehicles or characters?

Don't forget Flyers/Aircraft.
Those are always on people's lists of things that'll certainly go away soon.

Thanks. What about Centurions?

I’d be careful of any firstborn, including cents.

I’d echo perhaps be wary of Firstborn stuff.

I still don’t expect we’ll see it all go away, but it feels about the time for some refreshes. Which may limit weapon loadouts.

But broadly speaking? Marines have never really sucked as an army. Granted they’re not necessarily the tippity top all the time, but they’re kinda hard to make a really, truly useless army with.

However, and this is reasonable rule of thumb across all of 40K? Whatever is the hotness right now will, typically, be toned down in the next Codex or edition.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
So, things to avoid: devastators, tactical Marines, rhino, whirlwind, predator, razorback, land raider, Vanguard Vets, any "Legends" marine vehicles or characters?

Don't forget Flyers/Aircraft.
Those are always on people's lists of things that'll certainly go away soon.

Thanks. What about Centurions?

The only use i have for Centurions is to use them as the basis for looted ork mega-armor.
(I hate how they look, so would never include them in one of my marine forces no matter thier rules)

ccs wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
So, things to avoid: devastators, tactical Marines, rhino, whirlwind, predator, razorback, land raider, Vanguard Vets, any "Legends" marine vehicles or characters?

Don't forget Flyers/Aircraft.
Those are always on people's lists of things that'll certainly go away soon.

Thanks. What about Centurions?

The only use i have for Centurions is to use them as the basis for looted ork mega-armor.
(I hate how they look, so would never include them in one of my marine forces no matter thier rules)

Centurions, just like Mutilators which were equally ugly models, are well on the chopping block to be scrapped at some point entirely I'd say. Actually, Aggressors basically replaced them already as a concept. While it's well possible many "Firstborn" units get ported to Primaris, I'm thinking Centurions might just vanish at some point or their successors will be nothing alike them.

 Nevelon wrote:
You can still get HFs in a few places, Terminators, sternguard. Less of them in places like Land Speeders and on dreadnought fists. They were never common, but I did scatter a few around in the old times.
...

One HF on a squad of 5 is hardly a comprehensive anti-charge deterrent vs a large horde. Ideally, I'd want at least two, My fave Devastator loadouts always had one HF and one hand flamer on the sarge, this made em a lot less prone for getting tarpitted by a random chaff unit. Well, all that is still in Legends, but probably wont survive the transition to 11th. Anyways, I hope 11th will make classic "boring" marine units more viable again. While I can throw a bunch of Gravis on the table if I absolutely must, I'd prefer if I wouldnt have to do so just in order to be able to reasonably cope against most opponents like in earlier editions.

Indeed, Marines have never truly sucked, but getting superb performance from them has always seemed to require "beardy" lists, and I am not a fan of it personally

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
So, things to avoid: devastators, tactical Marines, rhino, whirlwind, predator, razorback, land raider, Vanguard Vets, any "Legends" marine vehicles or characters?

I would expect new kits for the Devastators and Vanguard Vets. Vanguard Vets have already been leaked for an Upsizing Primaris kit. Hopefully their rules are better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
So, things to avoid: devastators, tactical Marines, rhino, whirlwind, predator, razorback, land raider, Vanguard Vets, any "Legends" marine vehicles or characters?

Don't forget Flyers/Aircraft.
Those are always on people's lists of things that'll certainly go away soon.

Thanks. What about Centurions?

The only use i have for Centurions is to use them as the basis for looted ork mega-armor.
(I hate how they look, so would never include them in one of my marine forces no matter thier rules)

Centurions, just like Mutilators which were equally ugly models, are well on the chopping block to be scrapped at some point entirely I'd say. Actually, Aggressors basically replaced them already as a concept. While it's well possible many "Firstborn" units get ported to Primaris, I'm thinking Centurions might just vanish at some point or their successors will be nothing alike them.

I'm not sure on the Cent Devs. I'm easily convinced theyre at risk of going away, but I don't see Aggressors as their "replacement" No Las Cannon, no missile launchers etc. Cents are really their own thing if you do Lascannon and missile. I'm pretty sure they're gone if they get rid of Grav.

11th just seems like a good time to end the firstborn/primaris divide, drop the last of the older stuff, kill of some of the dumber primaris units, and finally give us primaris tacticals, and devestators. (and rhinos!)

8th edition primaris were all deliberaly different from any firstborn unit. Intercessors were all bolters with no specials, heavies or (at least at the beginning) melee weapons on the Sarge. You had helblasters instead of devs, inceptors insteads of assault marines, aggressors instead of termies, and reivers instead of huffing scotchguard. the early tanks were basically flying landraiders.

the phobos stuff was also all new, giving us tacticool marines that can infiltrate (including guys with light bolters, guys with slightly different light bolters, and guys with sniper rifles) along with another jump pack shooting unit. You also got the heavy intercessors, which are a unit that exist.

9th edition began to smooth that out, with assault intercessors being basically assault marines w/o jump packs, outriders being bikes without upgrades, Bladeguard being a very specific brand of melee veteran, and eradicators being a more classic fire power unit (not quite devs, but still). Then outriders could add a slightly heavier ride with a heavy weapon (never seen that before). then suddenly you had tanks or speeders that could be kitted for long range anti tank, short range anti-tank, or horde killing.

Then in 10th, you just got, like, rebadged firstborn units wholesale. Sternguard, Terminators, Scouts, Assault marines, mortis dreadnought, drop pods. Company heroes are a new take on the command squad, but not strictly 1:1, and the infernus are legit new.

so what does this all mean? I think GW, a company that mines it's own past more ruthlessly than a small pacific island full of guano, will not be just eliminating the concept of "Tactical squad" from the game. I also think they're not overly precious about relatively new releases any more. This isn't the old days when a plastic mold was expected to last for over a decade. I'd guess we'll see new version of the last firstborn, so new tacticals, devs, and vanguard vets. I can't believe Centurians have lasted as long as they have! I'm guessing we'll eventually see upgraded outriders (those kits suck anyway). I can see them dropping the supperssors (who never got a separate kit), Reivers (who never had a use case), and rolling infiltrators and incursors into one datasheet. I wouldn't be shocked if they drop the rhino, razorback, predators, vindicator, fliers, and other firstborn vehicles. I'm guessing one of the big kits for 11th will be a new landraider.

I really don't think Centurions are going away, because they're easy enough to hand-wave as Primaris - you see so little of the actual Marine that you couldn't really tell.

And while the ensuing rage-filled response video from Paul Is Bad At Stuff would be entertaining, I would NOT wish to see his army done dirty like that. He already got screwed by their recent points increase.

 Polonius wrote:
11th just seems like a good time to end the firstborn/primaris divide, drop the last of the older stuff, kill of some of the dumber primaris units, and finally give us primaris tacticals, and devestators. (and rhinos!)

8th edition primaris were all deliberaly different from any firstborn unit. Intercessors were all bolters with no specials, heavies or (at least at the beginning) melee weapons on the Sarge. You had helblasters instead of devs, inceptors insteads of assault marines, aggressors instead of termies, and reivers instead of huffing scotchguard. the early tanks were basically flying landraiders.

Intercessors are Tacticals with two Aux GL's instead of a range of specials and heavies. They got the Assault Squad Treatment (Two Flamers/Plasma Pistols/Eviscerators) + Sergeant upgrades.

the phobos stuff was also all new, giving us tacticool marines that can infiltrate (including guys with light bolters, guys with slightly different light bolters, and guys with sniper rifles) along with another jump pack shooting unit. You also got the heavy intercessors, which are a unit that exist.

Thus getting rid of Scouts which I don't think they wanted around after the "abuse" of taking scout sqauds as compulsory choices. Now the "Scouts" could still be 20ish PPM because they've got the 3+ Armor Save. I suspect the Suppressors were a temporary unit to fill in for Bikes and Speeders until those units could be released.

At the time I thought HINTS were the replacement for Terminators, but someone else suggested Heavy Bolter Devs which made more sense.

9th edition began to smooth that out, with assault intercessors being basically assault marines w/o jump packs,

Assault Intercessors were done to make base sprue for Assault Marines without Jump Packs, as well as the Bolter/Chainsword infantry specials like Crusaders and Grey Hunters.

outriders being bikes without upgrades,

The base sprue for Bike Squads, as well as eventually Ravenwing, White Scars Units, and potentially a return of Swift Claws.

Bladeguard being a very specific brand of melee veteran,

Bladeguard struck me as a sort of swap for Assault Terminators.

and eradicators being a more classic fire power unit (not quite devs, but still).

Eradicators were I think one of many units designed to split up but still replace Devs. (HINTS as Heavy Bolter, Hellblasters as Plasma, Desloation squad as Missiles, Infernus Squads as flamers, etc) But I think they ran out of time to finish that so Devs get Primarisized.

Then outriders could add a slightly heavier ride with a heavy weapon (never seen that before).

The Invader was the replacement for the Attack Bike

then suddenly you had tanks or speeders that could be kitted for long range anti tank, short range anti-tank, or horde killing.

Then in 10th, you just got, like, rebadged firstborn units wholesale. Sternguard, Terminators, Scouts, Assault marines, mortis dreadnought, drop pods. Company heroes are a new take on the command squad, but not strictly 1:1, and the infernus are legit new.

The Dreads were also base sprues for specials. The Ballistus is the "Dark Angel Dread" with 2LC and ML. The Brutallis is going to be the base for Mortis, Death Company, and Bjorn.

so what does this all mean? I think GW, a company that mines it's own past more ruthlessly than a small pacific island full of guano, will not be just eliminating the concept of "Tactical squad" from the game. I also think they're not overly precious about relatively new releases any more. This isn't the old days when a plastic mold was expected to last for over a decade. I'd guess we'll see new version of the last firstborn, so new tacticals, devs, and vanguard vets. I can't believe Centurians have lasted as long as they have! I'm guessing we'll eventually see upgraded outriders (those kits suck anyway). I can see them dropping the supperssors (who never got a separate kit), Reivers (who never had a use case), and rolling infiltrators and incursors into one datasheet. I wouldn't be shocked if they drop the rhino, razorback, predators, vindicator, fliers, and other firstborn vehicles. I'm guessing one of the big kits for 11th will be a new landraider.

The Land Raider probably gets an upgraded kit. Rhino Chassis vehicles are probably gone. There may be a Vindicator (and less likely Whirlwind) kit based on Gladiator/Impuslor base sprues. I think the "options" for the Impulsor top were SUPPOSED to be those replacements, but they're not. I think Reivers stick around, and they may even get supercharged in their rules for 11th. I think GW really does want to make Reiving happen. I wonder if the Cent replacement was SUPPOSED to be the Warsuit but it also landed with a thud - thematically and role wise it didn't happen. Sure the Warsuit and the Assault Cents are very overlapping, but the Warsuit is "Phobos" themed not Big Dudes In Suits Themed - and Assault Cents kinda suck so people weren't pay attention to them - so people didn't make the connection even subconciously.