Vote for your favorite!

the last version of this poll got botched so i decided to recreate it.



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someone actually voted for <deleted from imperial records>

lol

I voted for Russ of course

me, too!

Sanguinius!

Sanguinis.
The Dude has wings...nuff said.

Also, don't REALLY see the attraction of Russ. Sure he's heck funny to laugh at when he loses his temper but other than that the only thing going for him is that he's kind of got a dog-like affection for the Emprah.


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An honorable mention to Vulkan. The founder of the "humanitarian" chapter.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Sanguinis.
The Dude has wings...nuff said.

Also, don't REALLY see the attraction of Russ. Sure he's heck funny to laugh at when he loses his temper but other than that the only thing going for him is that he's kind of got a dog-like affection for the Emprah.


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An honorable mention to Vulkan. The founder of the "humanitarian" chapter.

Space Wolves are just as "humanitarian" as the Salamanders, but the Space Wolves have better fluff, and beer.

Demogerg wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Sanguinis.
The Dude has wings...nuff said.

Also, don't REALLY see the attraction of Russ. Sure he's heck funny to laugh at when he loses his temper but other than that the only thing going for him is that he's kind of got a dog-like affection for the Emprah.


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An honorable mention to Vulkan. The founder of the "humanitarian" chapter.

Space Wolves are just as "humanitarian" as the Salamanders, but the Space Wolves have better fluff, and beer.

And we don't look like burn victims

I don't call throwing a tantrum when you don't get your way humanitarian. In the 1st War for Armegeddon the Space Wolves didn't like it that thier COMRADES had been quarantined. I think that Salamanders are far less aloof and more people friendly. They help CIVILIANS and actually talk to people.


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@Gwar: At least Salamanders aren't just a few hairs away from a bear. (And they aren't too racist either)

Salamanders are pussies, they are nice to everyone. You have to EARN the Space Wolves respect.

OHhhhh, so being NICE makes you a pusssy? That goes a long way in explaining your attitude Gwar.

Space Wolves really aren't nice. They are HONORABLE, but hardley HUMANITARIAN.

Emperors Faithful wrote: I think that Salamanders are far less aloof and more people friendly. They help CIVILIANS and actually talk to people.


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@Gwar: At least Salamanders aren't just a few hairs away from a bear. (And they aren't too racist either)

emphasis mine, You just called the space wolves racist? why? there is nothing to suggest anything racist in any Space Wolf text. At this point I would say you are just grabbing at staws and hoping to hit on something. You like the Salamanders more, thats fine, but to call the Salamanders more humanitarian than the Space Wolves is just wrong.
Read up on the canon please. Space Wolves are one of the only chapters that will stop and save humans from destruction

Didn't call Spaz Wolvziez racist, that was directed at Gwar (hint: the @Gwar sign). Anyway this is all a matter of opinion. But it is my belief (discerned from the facts) that the Salamnders are more humanitarian than the space wolves.

Space Wolvz love battle glory. In the 3rd War for Armageddon it was Tushan he saved the civilian populaces and actually struck a captain of another chapter for bombarding a refugee camp while there where orks in the perimeter. I doubt Spaz Wolvz would give a damn about anyone who wasn't a warrior.

Please read Wolf At The Door. Or at least read a synopsis

I don't understand why people like Sanguinis so much. But then again I don't understand why people like that movie (or those books) "Twilight," either. My guess is that these things are connected.

Sorry for botching the last lot.

Anyway, I voted for Alpharius.

Ferrus Manus. You can't beat indestuctable metal hands.


Fun Fact: Ferrus Manus is actually Iron Hand in Latin.

Sanguinis was the only Primarch to make the ultimate sacrifice for the Emprah. Yes the other loyal primarchs died bravely or dissapeared, but it was Sanguinis alone who stood against Horus and said "C'mon, have a go mother£$"%*!"

Also, he wins sheerly through breaking the back of a Greater Deamon of Khornes across his knee.

Sanguinus is awesome, and oddly enough I'm a big fan of Corax too. But, if for nothing more then my heritage, I have to vote for the space viking. How can you not vote for space vikings?

They're like pirates.

In space.

With beer and exterminatus capabilities...

Holy crudsticks, I'd be really scared of the Wolves if I lived in the 40k universe!

...So it comes down to this.

The honourable Sanguinis VS the Drunk/Rowdy Space Viking...

Sanguinius, 'cause he's the prettiest Primarch of all!

Yay!

But Russ is such a bad@ss that Horus had to wait till he was on the other side of the galaxy before he started his assault on Terra.

If Russ was there he would have stopped Horus.

Nobody voted for Horus.

@Demogerg: Horus waited mainly becuase of the ultramarines as they were the biggest and strongest legion at the time.

@Exarch_Nektel: That's becuase Horus=EPIC FAIL!!!

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Demogerg: Horus waited mainly becuase of the ultramarines as they were the biggest and strongest legion at the time.

No, he didn't. He waited till Russ was Far away because he knew he could kick his ass. Gulliman was overtaken by Greed so he over extended his legion. If Horus had not turned to chaos Gulliman would have been the next choice.

On that note, it seems Leman, Sanguinius and <Deleted from Imperial Records> are winning

...greed? That IS stretching things my little troll.

Horus waited for A LOT of legions to be scattered before striking. Mainly Gulliman becuase his ultramarinz had suffered the least casualties. (becuase he was clever or a wimp I don't know). It was not mainly becuase of RUSS.

Guilliman. Didn't see any other Primarchs holding the Imperium together and creating a military frame work that would keep the Imperium alive for 10,000 years and longer.

Emperors Faithful wrote:...greed? That IS stretching things my little troll.

Horus waited for A LOT of legions to be scattered before striking. Mainly Gulliman becuase his ultramarinz had suffered the least casualties. (becuase he was clever or a wimp I don't know). It was not mainly becuase of RUSS.

Keep telling yourself that.

The fact is, as soon as Horus heard Leman was days away from Terra, he gambled with combat against the Emperor, and lost. That is how much he was pissing himself in fear of Russ.


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djones520 wrote:Guilliman. Didn't see any other Primarchs holding the Imperium together and creating a military frame work that would keep the Imperium alive for 10,000 years and longer.

No, because all the other primarchs weren't stuck up their own arse. If you do your research, you will find Gulliman nearly caused a Second Civil War because HE wanted to be in charge via the codex.

I am a fan of <deleted from imperial records>.

not all records, apparently. read "mechanichum"

Hey guys. Sanguinis here. Thanks for all the votes.

Gwar, where do you get this stuff?

I swear you make it up as you go along.

Anyway, Guliman came up with a great system as to how the Spaz Marinz should work.

What is all this bawwww over how great Roboute is? That troll with the long sig about how he is always right brings up a good point. What is the motivation behind making up the codex? To preserve the Imperium? Then why nearly go to civil war with all the units that PROVED themselves loyal during the heresy just to have it enforced? Sounds pretty shady.

guillman just wanted to enforce his loserness, so he made up a plan to make him seem special.

Dorn is far more impressive.

My favorite, however, is Lorgar. Especially after reading "Scions of the Storm,"

Probably becuase in the case of a rebellion (which does happen to chapters believe it or not) it would only be a single chapter lost. Not another bloody LEGION.

Anyway, I think Chapters work more efficiently than a whole Legion. At least when Protecting the imperium. With the crusades you NEEDED big armies to conquer civilizations. Now Imperium is on the defensive.


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Dorn is an idiot. He got 400 of his men killed in a pointless conflict against the Iron Warriors and then threw a tantrum.

Exarch_Nektel wrote:Dorn is far more impressive.

Yes, that's correct.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Dorn is an idiot. He got 400 of his men killed in a pointless conflict against the Iron Warriors and then threw a tantrum.

You ought to read the Lexicanum closely about this point.

For Gulliman! For Macragge!

What have I done?!?
I only wanted people to see that Horus was more afraid of Gulliman than Russ!
I never meant for people to actually vote for Gulliman!

So desperate for trolling that you are comparing the most badass Primarch to Twilight?

...who waz that aimed at?
...And please, don't even mention Twilight.

Dreadwinter wrote:So desperate for trolling that you are comparing the most badass Primarch to Twilight?

I have half a mind to go dredge up some tame furry pics.

See that? That's the fate of all you dog lovers. Coure, you'll prolly be dressed as dogs and not cats.

I spot at least seven Space Wolf fans in there. Maybe more, some of the animals look kinda like dogs to me. And then there's a Storm Trooper. I have no idea what he's doing in there. Maybe he's gonna suicide with a Thermal Detonater? Take 'em all out. Or maybe it's the whole standing-by-ugly-people-makes-you-look-better-by-comparison type scenario.

Manchu wrote:

Hey guys. Sanguinis here. Thanks for all the votes.

I lol'd


Seriously though, Guilliman wrote the codex astartes and tried to get all the old legions to follow it, only a one primarchs was ballzy enough to say flat out say no. Leman Russ.

I dont think people understand the amount of awesome this was, right after the Heresy, to say no to something like this puts you and your whole legion at risk of becoming labled traitors. No one did label them as traitors though because no one wanted to get their ass handed to them by Russ.

yea yea yea, Sangui died protecting the Empra, but Russ is still alive searching for a way to restore the big E.
He was an alcoholic and a glutton.
He killed a Kraken with his bare hands.
Horus was scared of him.
The Imperial Heirarchy was scared of him.
He has a Main Battle Tank named after him.
10,000 years of service to the Emporer.
"Will return."


what does Sangui have?
Wings?
Died for the Emp (like billions of others)
Emo style?

...U put alchoholic as a positve?
Anyway, where do you get the idea that Horus was scared of Russ?
Also, Russ was not the only one to refuse to change his chapter. Dorn was stubborn too.
Actually, Dorn was an Idiot...now that you mention it. Dorn and Russ have A LOT in common. They could be bestest buddies!!! Idiots in Arms!

Emperors Faithful wrote:...U put alchoholic as a positve?

Damn right it is!

Anyway, where do you get the idea that Horus was scared of Russ?

From the fact he had to make him go away before attacking Terra. Also how he took the Gamble with fighting the Emperor the moment he heard Russ was on the way to Terra.

Also, Russ was not the only one to refuse to change his chapter. Dorn was stubborn too.

Dorn relented, proving he was nothing but an emo pussy, making the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines the only two 1st Founding Legions to fully follow the Codex.

Actually, Dorn was an Idiot...

Yup.

Fulgrim because he thought people should always try and better themselves, his cause just got a little perverted/exploited along the way and he got trapped in his own body

I would play loyalist Emperor's Children if the fluff allowed it :(

Grim.Badger wrote:I would play loyalist Emperor's Children if the fluff allowed it :(

You can! Just say they are pre heresy EC. Of course, getting all those Pre Heresy Suits might be a Problem...

I voted for Magnus. Mythical creature (cyclops)? Check. Sorcerer? Check. Tragic tale of misunderstanding? Check.

RustyKnight wrote:I voted for Magnus. Mythical creature (cyclops)? Check. Sorcerer? Check. Tragic tale of misunderstanding? Check.

Tragic tale? He was told not to mess about, and almost caused Eye of Terra (See what I did thar) when he sent that bound Dæmon.

RustyKnight wrote:I voted for Magnus.... Tragic tale of misunderstanding? Check.

That is a good reason to vote for him, even if he did go directly against the word of the Emporer and practice witchery.

Horus- Russ, my main man, mah bro, go blow up Magnus. The big E has decided he wants to kill one of his sons instead of talk it out.
Russ- Okay.


Also, Magnus sent the daemon cause he realized OH SHI- Horus was a traitor. He needed to get the message there fast.

Gwar! wrote:

RustyKnight wrote:I voted for Magnus. Mythical creature (cyclops)? Check. Sorcerer? Check. Tragic tale of misunderstanding? Check.

Tragic tale? He was told not to mess about, and almost caused Eye of Terra (See what I did thar) when he sent that bound Dæmon.

At least its an interesting story, as opposed to Sanguinis who is pretty cliche' IMO.

When the Emperor Tells you "DO NOT MUCH ABOUT WITH DÆMONS!", you don't muck about with Dæmons.

Demogerg wrote:At least its an interesting story, as opposed to Sanguinis who is pretty cliche' IMO.

Gwar! wrote:When the Emperor Tells you "DO NOT MUCK ABOUT WITH DÆMONS!", you don't muck about with Dæmons.

QFT. There isn't much more that needs to be said on these topics. As to this . . .

RustyKnight wrote:Horus- Russ, my main man, mah bro, go blow up Magnus. The big E has decided he wants to kill one of his sons instead of talk it out.
Russ- Okay.

more like:

THE HORUS HERESY

Emprah: Hours, go reconquer the galaxy so there can be a new golden age.
Horus: But I should be Emprah, bawwwwww!

Emprah: Magnus, stop it with the sorcery.
Magnus: But I know what's best, bawwwwww!

Emprah: Horus, tell Russ to bring Magnus to me because I said so.
Horus: Emprah wants you to kill Magnus because he said so.
Russ: Fine. Emprah's always right. Plus Ole Red has already been denounced as a traitor and I never liked him anyway.

Russ: You're about to die, cyclops!
Magnus: O noes! Tzeentch, I choose you! Bawwwww!
Russ: Ah well. Now to go kill Horus.

Russ: Rowboat, how have you not been doing anything?
Guilliman: . . . I've been writing a book.
Russ: Sigh. Let's go.
Guilliman: And I fought the Word Bearers!

Horus: Oh shi--Spess Puppies a'comin?
Abbadon: And the Ultramarines, sir.
Horus: Who? Anyway, this looks bad. *enter Sanguinis* What are you doing here? Come to join me?
Sanguinius: *throws self on Horus's power claws* Alas, I am undone! When you play Castlevania, remember me!
*enter Emprah*
Emprah: Horus! So my favorite son killed my favorite daughter!
Horus: What about the Lion?
Emprah: Never liked her.
Horus: No one does. Now prepare to die! *mortally wounds Emprah*
Emprah: Au contraire, you dick. *kills Horus*

Dorn: Okay, now I just plug this into this and . . . okay, it works! Emprah? Hellooooo?

Jonson: I did nothing!
Guilliman: I did more nothing that you!
Jonson: Nuh-uh. I was the most worthless!
Guilliman: Have you read my book?
Dorn: No one likes that book.
Khan: C'mon guys. It's not that bad.
Dorn: I guess not.
Russ: You all suck. Ima go bring the Emprah back to life.

Manchu wrote: more like:

Emprah: Hours, go reconquer the galaxy so there can be a new golden age.
Horus: But I should be Emprah, bawwwwww!

Emprah: Magnus, stop it with the sorcery.
Magnus: But I know what's best, bawwwwww!

Emprah: Horus, tell Russ to bring Magnus to me because I said so.
Horus: Emprah wants you kill Magnus because he said so.
Russ: Fine. He's already been denounced as a traitor and I never liked him anyway.

Well put.

@Demogerg: See edit above.

Manchu wrote:THE HORUS HERESY

Emprah: Hours, go reconquer the galaxy so there can be a new golden age.
Horus: But I should be Emprah, bawwwwww!

Emprah: Magnus, stop it with the sorcery.
Magnus: But I know what's best, bawwwwww!

Emprah: Horus, tell Russ to bring Magnus to me because I said so.
Horus: Emprah wants you to kill Magnus because he said so.
Russ: Fine. Emprah's always right. Plus Ole Red has already been denounced as a traitor and I never liked him anyway.

Russ: You're about to die, cyclops!
Magnus: O noes! Tzeentch, I choose you! Bawwwww!
Russ: Ah well. Now to go kill Horus.

Russ: Rowboat, how have you not been doing anything?
Guilliman: . . . I've been writing a book.
Russ: Sigh. Let's go.
Guilliman: And I fought the Word Bearers!

Horus: Oh shi--Spess Puppies a'comin?
Abbadon: And the Ultramarines, sir.
Horus: Who? Anyway, this looks bad. *enter Sanguinis* What are you doing here? Come to join me?
Sanguinius: *throws self on Horus's power claws* Alas, I am undone! When you play Castlevania, remember me!
*enter Emprah*
Emprah: Horus! So my favorite son killed my favorite daughter!
Horus: What about the Lion?
Emprah: Never liked her.
Horus: No one does. Now prepare to die! *mortally wounds Emprah*
Emprah: Au contraire, you dick. *kills Horus*

Dorn: Okay, now I just plug this into this and . . . okay, it works! Emprah? Hellooooo?

Jonson: I did nothing!
Guilliman: I did more nothing that you!
Jonson: Nuh-uh. I was the most worthless!
Guilliman: Have you read my book?
Dorn: No one likes that book.
Khan: C'mon guys. It's not that bad.
Dorn: I guess not.
Russ: You all suck. Ima go bring the Emprah back to life.

WHY IS THIS MAN NOT WRITING FOR GW!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kurze was the best. End of thread

Manchu wrote:

Demogerg wrote:At least its an interesting story, as opposed to Sanguinis who is pretty cliche' IMO.

Gwar! wrote:When the Emperor Tells you "DO NOT MUCK ABOUT WITH DÆMONS!", you don't muck about with Dæmons.

QFT. There isn't much more that needs to be said on these topics. As to this . . .

RustyKnight wrote:Horus- Russ, my main man, mah bro, go blow up Magnus. The big E has decided he wants to kill one of his sons instead of talk it out.
Russ- Okay.

more like:

THE HORUS HERESY

Emprah: Hours, go reconquer the galaxy so there can be a new golden age.
Horus: But I should be Emprah, bawwwwww!

Emprah: Magnus, stop it with the sorcery.
Magnus: But I know what's best, bawwwwww!

Emprah: Horus, tell Russ to bring Magnus to me because I said so.
Horus: Emprah wants you to kill Magnus because he said so.
Russ: Fine. Emprah's always right. Plus Ole Red has already been denounced as a traitor and I never liked him anyway.

Russ: You're about to die, cyclops!
Magnus: O noes! Tzeentch, I choose you! Bawwwww!
Russ: Ah well. Now to go kill Horus.

Russ: Rowboat, how have you not been doing anything?
Guilliman: . . . I've been writing a book.
Russ: Sigh. Let's go.
Guilliman: And I fought the Word Bearers!

Horus: Oh shi--Spess Puppies a'comin?
Abbadon: And the Ultramarines, sir.
Horus: Who? Anyway, this looks bad. *enter Sanguinis* What are you doing here? Come to join me?
Sanguinius: *throws self on Horus's power claws* Alas, I am undone! When you play Castlevania, remember me!
*enter Emprah*
Emprah: Horus! So my favorite son killed my favorite daughter!
Horus: What about the Lion?
Emprah: Never liked her.
Horus: No one does. Now prepare to die! *mortally wounds Emprah*
Emprah: Au contraire, you dick. *kills Horus*

Dorn: Okay, now I just plug this into this and . . . okay, it works! Emprah? Hellooooo?

Jonson: I did nothing!
Guilliman: I did more nothing that you!
Jonson: Nuh-uh. I was the most worthless!
Guilliman: Have you read my book?
Dorn: No one likes that book.
Khan: C'mon guys. It's not that bad.
Dorn: I guess not.
Russ: You all suck. Ima go bring the Emprah back to life.

BRILLIANT.

"Sanguinius: *throws self on Horus's power claws* Alas, I am undone! When you play Castlevania, remember me! "

Best line out of it I reckon :3

"Russ: You all suck. Ima go bring the Emprah back to life. "
That was my favorite line.

total slap in the face to all the do-nothing primarchs who just sat around being tools for the high lords of terra after the "Emprah" decided to sit down for a while.

Loin el johnson
he's still alive....nuff said

airman wrote:Loin el johnson
he's still alive....nuff said

So are Gulliman, Russ, Jaghatai Khan, Vulkan, Fulgrim, Perturabo, Angron, Mortarion and Lorgar.

Manchu wrote:I don't understand why people like Sanguinis so much. But then again I don't understand why people like that movie (or those books) "Twilight," either. My guess is that these things are connected.

@Manchu: Before Saguinis was killed by Hours he made a small dent in The Warmaster's armor wich the emperor used to defeat Hours.

airman wrote:

Manchu wrote:I don't understand why people like Sanguinis so much. But then again I don't understand why people like that movie (or those books) "Twilight," either. My guess is that these things are connected.

@Manchu: Before Saguinis was killed by Hours he made a small dent in The Warmaster's armor wich the emperor used to defeat Hours.

Say the Blood Angels.

Great Primarch Sanguinius, Master of the Blood Angels, Favored of the Emporer, Denter of Armor.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sanguinius#Horus_Heresy

p.s. I do not play blood angels, I play dark angels and starting to play Tzeench demons.

airman wrote:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sanguinius#Horus_Heresy

You do realise that all Fluff is bias depending on what viewpoint it is from? It has been stated many times there is never a 3rd Person Omnipresent "Correct" Viewpoint. EVERYTHING is coloured by who is "Writing" the facts.

Also, to have your life's achievement be "I dented some twits armour" is kind of pathetic.

Gwar! wrote:

airman wrote:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sanguinius#Horus_Heresy

You do realise that all Fluff is bias depending on what viewpoint it is from? It has been stated many times there is never a 3rd Person Omnipresent "Correct" Viewpoint. EVERYTHING is coloured by who is "Writing" the facts.

Also, to have your life's achievement be "I dented some twits armour" is kind of pathetic.

some other primarchs weren't present to do better ( maybe not only dent, but also scratch some paint from this armor at best )

Still, the <deleted> one has a lot of support here....

Honestly, what does it say about Sanguinius that the best that he could do was dent the armor of Horus? Compare this to Horus being afraid of Russ.


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1hadhq wrote:Still, the <deleted> one has a lot of support here....

Should that be the deleted ones?

1hadhq wrote:some other primarchs weren't present to do better

And why was that? Oh yeah, because Russ was sent half way Across the galaxy before Horus could attack Terra, and proceeds to gak himself when hearing he is days away, and so challenges The Emperor to single combat, ultimately losing the gamble.

In short: Russ is responsible for Horus Losing. Were it not for Russ, Horus would have overpowered the Emperor and Terra and blown up The Lion and The Wolf before they even reached Orbit.

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:some other primarchs weren't present to do better

And why was that? Oh yeah, because Russ was sent half way Across the galaxy before Horus could attack Terra, and proceeds to gak himself when hearing he is days away, and so challenges The Emperor to single combat, ultimately losing the gamble.

In short: Russ is responsible for Horus Losing. Were it not for Russ, Horus would have overpowered the Emperor and Terra and blown up The Lion and The Wolf before they even reached Orbit.

It wasn't so much the imminent arrival of Russ, as having three almost full strength legions turn up! Also I doubt Russ on his own would have scared him when below him on Earth there was the Emperor, Sanguinius and Dorn (can't remember who else, but I think my point is made)

Horus' armies couldn't even shift Sanguinius out of the Eternity Gate; I mean cummon, just one (albeit strong) bloke! Just imagine how much trouble they would have if three more Primarchs and their Legions turned up! Of course Horus panicked when he heard the Space Wolves, Ultra Marines and Dark Angels were on their way!

Grim.Badger wrote:It wasn't so much the imminent arrival of Russ, as having three almost full strength legions turn up when his armies couldn't even shift Sanguinius out of the Eternity Gate; I mean cummon, just one (albeit strong) bloke!

no, Horus definately killed Sanguinius.

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:some other primarchs weren't present to do better

And why was that? Oh yeah, because Russ was sent half way Across the galaxy before Horus could attack Terra, and proceeds to gak himself when hearing he is days away, and so challenges The Emperor to single combat, ultimately losing the gamble.

In short: Russ is responsible for Horus Losing. Were it not for Russ, Horus would have overpowered the Emperor and Terra and blown up The Lion and The Wolf before they even reached Orbit.

Why should horus, this overconfident fool think for himself instead of believing the lies of chaos?
Did those "visions" include horus getting punished by russ? No? Why should "the warmaster" fear russ?

Even without russ, this "warmaster" would have lost.
Any so-called tactician, that needs 7 legions to win against 3 legions isn't such a challenge.
Same at the palace. Only 3 legions to defend, but horus can't afford to fight against 2 additional legions.


Now, its a "favourite primarch poll" and those without any fluff can keep up with russ.
So those nameless ones are super-awesome and outshine russ if we would know them.

1hadhq wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:some other primarchs weren't present to do better

And why was that? Oh yeah, because Russ was sent half way Across the galaxy before Horus could attack Terra, and proceeds to gak himself when hearing he is days away, and so challenges The Emperor to single combat, ultimately losing the gamble.

In short: Russ is responsible for Horus Losing. Were it not for Russ, Horus would have overpowered the Emperor and Terra and blown up The Lion and The Wolf before they even reached Orbit.

Why should horus, this overconfident fool think for himself instead of believing the lies of chaos?
Did those "visions" include horus getting punished by russ? No? Why should "the warmaster" fear russ?

Even without russ, this "warmaster" would have lost.
Any so-called tactician, that needs 7 legions to win against 3 legions isn't such a challenge.
Same at the palace. Only 3 legions to defend, but horus can't afford to fight against 2 additional legions.


Now, its a "favourite primarch poll" and those without any fluff can keep up with russ.
So those nameless ones are super-awesome and outshine russ if we would know them.

I am very confused by your statements. Horus did believe the lies of chaos, and they were lies, they told him he should/would be Emprah. So Horus told Russ to go elsewhere (because he did not want to fight Russ, he was scared) then he attacked Terra. Tell me who this "Any so-called tactician" is? Sun-Tzu wrote in his book, The Art of War that in order to successfully attack an enemy in his own fortress you need at LEAST twice the force that your opponent has. Also, your generalization of Legions as a description of fighting strength is flawed in that the Legions were not held at a constant size.

It is a favorite primarch poll, and so far the Sons of Russ have shown the most interest, given the most votes, and given the most information. so i think you need to change your sentence here to "and those without any fluff can't keep up with Russ."

and in regards to your last sentence... What?

Gwar! wrote:

airman wrote:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sanguinius#Horus_Heresy

You do realise that all Fluff is bias depending on what viewpoint it is from? It has been stated many times there is never a 3rd Person Omnipresent "Correct" Viewpoint. EVERYTHING is coloured by who is "Writing" the facts.

Did you even read it

airman wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

airman wrote:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sanguinius#Horus_Heresy

You do realise that all Fluff is bias depending on what viewpoint it is from? It has been stated many times there is never a 3rd Person Omnipresent "Correct" Viewpoint. EVERYTHING is coloured by who is "Writing" the facts.

Did you even read it

Yeah, I did:

"Some say, however, that it was through this chink in Horus's armour that the Emperor was able to deliver the fatal blow. Thus the belief is that Sanguinius did not die in vain, but dying, allowed Horus to be slain and the Heresy destroyed."
"Because he is generally believed to have sacrificed himself to allow Horus, the "Great Betrayer", to be defeated"

Neither of those statements prove anything. All it shows is that he has a Cult of Personality.

um, Gwar? Were in the world do you believe that Russ was scaring the £"$% out of Horus?

It was the combined strength of the Spaz Puppy, Dark Angel and Ultramarinz legion that scared Horus, not one angry little dude.

Also, when it comes to bias, who do you think to be less reliable? Blood Angels who keep relatively stringent records? Or the Spaz Puppies who bawl out the exxagerated versions of their primarchs history or a few beers?

The Puppies are famous for exagerrating.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Also, when it comes to bias, who do you think to be less reliable? Blood Angels who keep relatively stringent records? Or the Spaz Puppies who bawl out the exxagerated versions of their primarchs history or a few beers?

The Puppies are famous for exagerrating.

The Puppies also have at least one person who was alive at the time of the heresy, and he awakens to test the knowledge of the Wolf Priests to ensure that the records are kept accurate.

Bjorn the Fell Handed.

And where did you get this fluff that the Space Wolves are famous for hyperbole? I have not read that anywhere.

Demogerg wrote:
It is a favorite primarch poll, and so far the Sons of Russ have shown the most interest, given the most votes, and given the most information. so i think you need to change your sentence here to "and those without any fluff can't keep up with Russ."

and in regards to your last sentence... What?

Why should i change a sentence, when its ( actually right now ) 14 votes to russ and 13 votes to those without a name?

If this poll would include some letters at its last option, i would use these and not " nameless" or <deleted>.

The fact stands, with ( moar russ ) in its header and "russ" as first option here ( to catch those too lazy to scroll ), chances to win "dakkas favourite primarch" title may be not as high as expected?

Looking at the nearly non-existant votes on traitors, this has either turned into a SW-only thread or chaos isn't scared about russ but
the SW fans.

We'll see how this turn out.
My bet is 2nd place for russ.

Bjorn the Fell-Handed takes naps after battle. NAPS! Who else does that?

Emperors Faithful wrote:Bjorn the Fell-Handed takes naps after battle. NAPS! Who else does that?

Who else is 10,000 years old outside of the Warp?

Compare keeping records to shouting out verbally the legends of your primarch. Which is gonna be more accurate?

Spaz Wolz are actually a lot like catachan. (who are also famous for hyperbole)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Gwar: THE EMPRAH!!!!

The reason for the title is because russ was at 50% of the votes in the first iteration of this thread, but then his votes magically disapeared.

Also, 1hadhq the reason why I asked you to retype your sentence is becuase i did not understand it, I now understand that you are refering to the option <deleted from imperial records> which looks like it became bugged and is now blank.

another way to look at it is this

Russ has the most votes, and <deleted from imperial records> has more votes than Sanguinius.

...But if SANE peoplev were voting then it would Sanguinis on top, then <deleted from Imperial Records> and MAYBE Russ would scrape into 3rd.

Russ for the Win!

Emperors Faithful wrote:...But if SANE peoplev were voting then it would Sanguinis on top, then <deleted from Imperial Records> and MAYBE Russ would scrape into 3rd.

Nah, most people dont go for emo.

alcoholic space viking is where its at.

lol
Obviously, the amount of sane people in this forum are lacking.

I would have voted for th eLion given that I am a long time DA player, but after reading this last book "Fallen Angels" and seeing how easily he is played by anybody with two brain cells to rub together I couldn't do it. He's a tactical genius, but a complete idiot when dealing with people.

Then I thought Sanguinis, dude took out ten greater demons of Khorn without breaking a sweat and only got beat down by the same guy who dropped the Emperor. Then I saw Manchu's post and I just couldn't do it.

I have to go with Russ. His personality carries him through his less than intelligent decisions. I enjoyed the SW books and the Norse theme of the chapter appeals to me.

Tyras wrote:I would have voted for th eLion given that I am a long time DA player, but after reading this last book "Fallen Angels" and seeing how easily he is played by anybody with two brain cells to rub together I couldn't do it. He's a tactical genius, but a complete idiot when dealing with people.

Then I thought Sanguinis, dude took out ten greater demons of Khorn without breaking a sweat and only got beat down by the same guy who dropped the Emperor. Then I saw Manchu's post and I just couldn't do it.

I have to go with Russ. His personality carries him through his less than intelligent decisions. I enjoyed the SW books and the Norse theme of the chapter appeals to me.

Russ: So awesome even Dark Angels vote for him!

Three cheers and a mug of ale for Tyras!

Cant we all just agree that Russ and Sanguinius are badass and with their combined power the chaos gods would crap themselves?

Also, can we agree that The Lion and Dorn are both slowed and pansies?

Sure on the first part. But Rogal is a cut above the Lion.

Barely.

Dreadwinter wrote:Also, can we agree that The Lion and Dorn are both slowed and pansies?

Lexi:

Dorn commanded his Legion and Expeditionary Fleets with peerless devotion and military genius. It was said that he possessed perhaps the finest military mind of the Primarchs, ordered and disciplined but still inclined to flashes of zeal and inspiration. Indeed, the Warmaster had said that he esteemed Dorn and the Imperial Fists so highly that he reckoned if the Fists, noted masters of defence, were to hold a fortress against him and his Luna Wolves, the resultant conflict would result in a never-ending stalemate.

Point proved I think....

So you disagree then?

Leman Russ is a Mary Sue.

PROVE ME WRONG!

...Death to the Heretic!!!! (orkeosaurus)

Orkeosaurus wrote:Leman Russ is a Mary Sue.

PROVE ME WRONG!

Calgar is Mary Sue

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

Seems someone needs to recrut votes: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=172856

Was it B&C only?

yep, just B&C

Demogerg wrote:yep, just B&C

*looks at poll*

Has worked well for you.

Congratz to the win.

i voted Magnus for the ....well i just voted

Well, now it's just more like the original poll.

how the hell did Russ suddenly leap ahead?
Surely that must be a glitch...

His votes from the last poll have reappeared as magically as they disappeared.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
His votes from the last poll have reappeared as magically as they disappeared.

@Manchu: It doesn't make sense the other day he was something like 15. Now he has "magically" gained 30 votes and the others have gotten squat.

I Demand a recount! This poll is rigged!

the other poll was rigged, he was at 20 when everyone else had ~5, then all his votes disappeared. This is exactly how the other one looked.

So you moved those votes HERE?!?

That's cheating! (pout)

Emperors Faithful wrote:So you moved those votes HERE?!?

That's cheating! (pout)

. . . how moved? With magic?

I actually do not know. What I SUSPECT is that somehow, Russ votes "magically" transformed from 15 to 40something in a small period of time.

How did that happen with no other votes to ANY of the others?

If Russ wasn't undeniably the most awesome of the primarchs, I'd be suspicious, too.

...Please tell me you don't actually believe that a sudden 30-35 votes out of nowhere is fair, or not suspicious.

Even though I love me some Space Wolves and Night Lords, I had to go with Horus, for some reason he just strikes me as my favorite.

Of all the primarchs, wasn't Horus the one who EPICALLY failed?

You could say that...

Or we could argue that it was Sanguinius, who accomplished nothing. Horus even in defeat managed to rock the Imperium to its core and cause a Civil War which isn't yet over.

...Sanguinus knew he was going to die. It's called sacrifice. And the CIVIL war is over. What are you talking about?

Anyway, Horus failed to achieve Universal domination. Which is wat he wanted. He FAILED. Sanguinis SACRIFICED himself.

HORUS FAILED.
SANGUINIUS SACRIFICED.
HORUS FAILED.
SANGUINIUS SACRIFICED.

Got it yet?

So that's why the Imperium is still fighting the CSM and why the Legions are still considering themselves in Civil War, because its over... Hmm, interesting thought.

Sanguinius died for nothing, so did Horus, but Horus's dying for nothing could still wipe out the universe.

Um, you do realise that the CSM having a temper tantrum (black crusade) every now and then is little more than a thorn in the side of the Imperium. The CSM lost mate. Realise that. Make it easy on yourself. That is like someone saying that a lone Nazi survivor sending mean e-mails to jews means that WWII is still going on.

The "Horus Heresy" was defeated the moment horus dies. Not utterly, yes. But the goodies won THAT war at least.

Also, Horus died a coward and traitor.
Sanguinis remained faithful. Big difference.

P.S. Blood Angels and co, ARE still in 40k.

And the Loyalists didn't throw a tantrum? I hardly see how the Black Crusades are a "thorn" in the Imperium's side beings how they are credited as being one of the largest threats to mankind.

When Abbadon breaks through the Cadian Gate he has free reign to do as he pleases, continuing the civil war.

A traitor yes, a Coward? Not so much.
Faith doesn't make you a coward or not.

So are the CSM.

Ok, did you see my little analog of the nazi?

Some die-hard CSM, while a threat, are not in the middle of a civil war. A war, yes. But for a civil war the whole imperium must be turned upon itself.

The horus heresy was a civil war becuase brother fought against brother, now the CSM are no longer brothers, but a minority.

P.S. Horus hasn't broken through Cadia yet, and I honestly don't think he will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Horus was WEAK then, he bowed to the whim of the dark gods.

Sanguinius stood pure.

The Nazi argument is hardly relevant, there are more than "some" die hard, there are a couple Legions of them. Its a Civil War because it never ended the Traitor Marines are still that, traitor marines.

According to the latest Black Crusade he has won, Abbadon that is.

...Abbadon won? First I heard.
Anyway, if he even tried to take on Terra he'd be screwed sideways.

Traitor Marinz fled the Imperium right?

Let's say that two politacal rivals get into civil war. 1 loses and flees the country. He is no longer a threat (not AS big as he started off) and the country is no longer in turmoil. Just becuase he is not dead does not mean the Civil War is still going on. Even if he does still make guerilla attacks.

From what GW has been telling me he won. And there isn't much between him and Terra.

You know what, Vietnam was similar to what you're describing and you know what that was? A Civil War. Just cause one side doesn't wanna call it that doesn't mean its not.

I don't think you understand how BIG the Imperium is. I think that CSM should be classed as renegades (which they are) they are not an army on equal terms with the Immperium.

How did Abbadon win? (honestly this is the first I've heard)

The Black Legion is still that a Legion united for the most part under the command of Abbadon, the Night Lords for the most part are a Legion still as well along with the Iron Warrior and the Word Bearers, only the Death Guard, 1ksons, Zerkers and Noise Marines are warbands, well them along with Renegade chapters and the Alpha Legion who does what ever it wants, then add in all the cultists that get drawn to them and the Traitor Guard and bam there goes Terra. The Cadian Gate isn't that far from Terra.

From what I've been told the 13th Black Crusade was a Major victory for Chaos on the ground with them controlling over 90% of the Planet and inspace they controlled roughly half. Strength through numbers and superior firepower.

Yeah, but storywise how did it go?
I heard something about Eldrad sacrificing himself to stop Abbadon.

Im not quite sure they've worked the story out, as Chaos winning means they have to move the story line forward.

I think Eldrad died in the 12th BC


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Taken From lexicanum:

The Thirteenth Black Crusade was the background to the worldwide Warhammer 40,000 Eye of Terror campaign, which resulted in a minor victory for the forces of Chaos and gave Abaddon a foothold in the Cadian Gate, though he suffered grevious losses to his fleet.

While the ground is largely controlled by the forces of Chaos, the skies above Cadia are almost entirely ruled by Admiral Quarren and the entire Battle Fleet Groups: Gothic and Solar and elements of several chapters of Space Marines, leaving the results open as the battle rages on. Having both space and air superiority gives a significant advantage to the Imperial forces, allowing the deployment of fresh troops and the bombardment of Abaddon's army.

There is rampant speculation among fans that Abaddon intends to eventually take the war to Terra itself, taking advantage of some type of conflict involving the Adepts of Mars and a big secret yet unrevealed.

SO apparently my Black Shirts havent been spot on but still. Foot Hold on Cadia ect.

Horus jumped the gun out of fear, because of it he failed.

Sanguinius held the Eternium Gate singlehanded and bitchslapped some Bloodthirsters around like little girls.

He then went onto Horus's battle barge with the Emperor and confronted Horus solo, knowing that Horus could pretty much kill him with a single stroke because he was backed by all 4 Chaos Gods. Instead of backing down, he tried to convince his brother to come back to the Imperium and Horus attempted to bring him to the side of chaos. Neither won and Sanguinius was struck down.

Even in a bloated and festering Chaos Barge, Sanguinius did not falter in his loyalty.

Sanguinius > Horus

As far as Abaddon winning Cadia goes, he owns the ground. Imperial Navy owns the skies and space. Hes not going anywhere for awhile.

So you follow Sanguinius because he was an optimist?


Unless he uses the Warp to get out. Another thing I heard is that Chaos should have completely won but GW dropped the hammer of RetCon because heaven forbid they advance the story.

RetCon?

Anyway Sanguinius beats Horus easy. Abbadon = Horus Wannabe.

Therefore Sanguinius (and Blood angels) beat Abbadon.

RetCon is when they change something that happens in the game to better suit them. Like rather than complete Chaos Victory, just a minor one.

But Sanguinius was killed by Horus, you may take the moral High Ground but you still lose the battle.

RetCon is a Portmanteau of Retroactive Continuity. Google it why don't you

...and Horus was killed by Emprah, Sanguinius best buddy.

YOU LOSE THE BATTLE!

Emperors Faithful wrote:...and Horus was killed by Emprah, Sanguinius best buddy.

YOU LOSE THE BATTLE!

Horus only fought the Emperor and Sanguinius in the first place BECAUSE Russ was days away from Terra. If Russ had not been en route, he would have stayed on his barge another month or two and easily won.

Gwar! wrote:RetCon is a Portmanteau of Retroactive Continuity. Google it why don't you

Sorry Gwar, my google-fu was feeling lazy.

Emperors Faithful wrote:...and Horus was killed by Emprah, Sanguinius best buddy.

YOU LOSE THE BATTLE!

Though not the war, yet anyway...

Gwar! wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:...and Horus was killed by Emprah, Sanguinius best buddy.

YOU LOSE THE BATTLE!

Horus only fought the Emperor and Sanguinius in the first place BECAUSE Russ was days away from Terra. If Russ had not been en route, he would have stayed on his barge another month or two and easily won.

Indeed, be glad Russ was on his way other wise Horus would have won and the Dark Angels would have helped to destroy the Space Wolves.

Lets be fair, the Dark Angels could in no way help destroy anybody. They were too busy being emo and destroying their home planet.

Saying that CSM are not brothers to the loyalists is just wrong, they are still indeed brothers, they have just been estranged by ten thousand years of warfare.

Also, Sangy's sacrifice accomplished a whole lot of nothing, Horus crushed him with no problems.
Then the Emprah was mortally wounded, and killed horus.

so if sangy didnt hurt horus, and horus was still killed by the emp, then if sangy didnt fight horus the emp would have still killed him, and then the Imperium would have been +1 primarch instead of +1 dead emo guy with wings.

I'm fairly certain that if it had just been Russ (and not his entire legion of Spess Puppies), Horus wouldn't have been overly worried.

Demogerg, a lot of fluff says that Flying Vampire Man put a chink in the armor of Horus that allowed the big E to defeat him. You can't truthfully ay he did nothing.

I will admit that Russ is likable. He is the least GRIMDARK of all the Primarch's ('cept maybe Vulkan) and he's easily the most entertaining.

RustyKnight wrote:I'm fairly certain that if it had just been Russ (and not his entire legion of Spess Puppies), Horus wouldn't have been overly worried.

Demogerg, a lot of fluff says that Flying Vampire Man put a chink in the armor of Horus that allowed the big E to defeat him. You can't truthfully ay he did nothing.

I will admit that Russ is likable. He is the least GRIMDARK of all the Primarch's ('cept maybe Vulkan) and he's easily the most entertaining.

"A lot of fluff says" is not an argument. It has been consistently stated that all fluff is bias and written from an In universe view.

Gwar! wrote:"A lot of fluff says" is not an argument..

Someone already linked Flying Vampire Primarch's Lexicanum page. It contains a lot of fluff. Guess what that fluff says. I'm sorry, I should have said,"LOLOL RUSS WINS!!1! ALL THE OTHERS ARE WORSE IN EVERY POSSIBLE MANNER!1!

Gwar! wrote:It has been consistently stated that all fluff is bias and written from an In universe view.

So, effectively, fluff is inadmissable as proof for anything and nothing is false? Demo said Flying Vampire did nothing. Fluff disagrees. Fluff is biased, so it doesn't matter. Demo can't be refuted?

Russ was a cross dressing furry with had a man crush on Horus. Horus duelled the Emperor to avoid being smother to death by Russ's kisses.

What the hell is all this furry talk there is no place in the 40k just war and emo Primarch guys

Chaos won Eye of Terror.

The Imperial claim that it was a "tie" because they held the space tiles is untrue. Games Workshop said as the campaign was going on that Chaos could pull supplies through warp gates, but the Imperial players ignored it.

Them claiming a tie is like claiming that you won an objective game because you had more of your army left, and you would totally kill your opponent if the game continued, when your opponent has more objectives and the game has ended. It just doesn't cut it.

Not that Games Workshop would dare advance the story.

RustyKnight wrote:

Gwar! wrote:"A lot of fluff says" is not an argument..

Someone already linked Flying Vampire Primarch's Lexicanum page. It contains a lot of fluff. Guess what that fluff says. I'm sorry, I should have said,"LOLOL RUSS WINS!!1! ALL THE OTHERS ARE WORSE IN EVERY POSSIBLE MANNER!1!

Gwar! wrote:It has been consistently stated that all fluff is bias and written from an In universe view.

So, effectively, fluff is inadmissable as proof for anything and nothing is false? Demo said Flying Vampire did nothing. Fluff disagrees. Fluff is biased, so it doesn't matter. Demo can't be refuted?

Russ was a cross dressing furry with had a man crush on Horus. Horus duelled the Emperor to avoid being smother to death by Russ's kisses.

If I say that Sanguinius is cool, will that settle things?

I thought Dreadwinter and I settled this a page ago.

Chaos won the Eye of Terror and the net effect was... nothing. Failbaddon still didn't take Cadia, and nothing changed except a few planets we didn't know existed until EoT got asploded.

It was nothingy result, riddled with GW's usual pathetic execution. Cascade effects in favur of the Imperium didn't work in the same manner as they did for Chaos so everything got skewed.

Gwar, why do you keep claiming that Horus was scared of Russ ALONE?

He was more scared of 3 entire legions bearing down on his ragged rear-end (Ultramarinz, Dark Angelz, and Spehz Puppehz) than one dude.

I don't see what the big argument is. Sanguinius and Russ are hands down the best Primarchs. Why you guys dick waving?

Emperors Faithful wrote:Gwar, why do you keep claiming that Horus was scared of Russ ALONE?

He was more scared of 3 entire legions bearing down on his ragged rear-end (Ultramarinz, Dark Angelz, and Spehz Puppehz) than one dude.

Sorry, but the Ultramarines and Dark Angels were boats of Fail and wouldn't have done anything.

Yeah. A Legion that ounumbered everyone else wouldn't have done "anything" to the foces of Chaos, especially when backed up by the Dar Angels and Woofs. No. Nothing at all.

But seriously Gwar!, I didn't have you pegged as a Woof fanboy.

hey, Rule #1, be nice.

but basically yea,

Demo can't be refuted?

pretty much.

also

fluff is inadmissable as proof for anything

true
this is science fiction, so yea, nothing is "true" or "real"
and because there is so much left to the imagination, we are all just a bunch of super nerds trying to make ourselves seem like we are the superior supernerds on a supernerd nerdrage forum.

no offense to anyone.

A critical amount of offence being taken over here, Demogerg. lol.

I like Russ, he's funny, especially when he either:
a) Throws a tantrum
b) Throws a tantrum and gets drunk
or c) Throws a tantrum, gets drunk and pummels someone

I just don't see why Gwar is madly frothing over the hairy space viking.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah. A Legion that ounumbered everyone else wouldn't have done "anything" to the foces of Chaos, especially when backed up by the Dar Angels and Woofs. No. Nothing at all.

But seriously Gwar!, I didn't have you pegged as a Woof fanboy.

So you utterly missed the gigantic post about space wolves I made?

P.S. Everyone read it and comment :3 http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236094.page

...Gwar, I...can't bear to look. If it is all about praises to Spehz Puppehz then no, man, you can't ask me to do that...

Well Gwar!, they should really be looking at MY posts in that thread to strengthen our arguement here.

Now were arguing about who's is the MOST loyal to Russ?!?

No! Oh, dear god-emperor, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Emperors Faithful wrote:Now were arguing about who's is the MOST loyal to Russ?!?

No! Oh, dear god-emperor, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

what>?

no one ever said that.

the thread that Gwar! linked too is just a very long conversation about the size of the Space Wolf Legion/Chapter

Demogerg wrote:the thread that Gwar! linked too is just a very long conversation about the size of the Space Wolf Legion/Chapter

However, the gist of it is that they are smaller but more awesome than any of the other legions/chapters (because they are :3)

Demogerg wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Now were arguing about who's is the MOST loyal to Russ?!?

No! Oh, dear god-emperor, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

what>?

no one ever said that.

No one?

I wonder why.

1hadhq wrote:

Demogerg wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Now were arguing about who's is the MOST loyal to Russ?!?

No! Oh, dear god-emperor, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

what>?

no one ever said that.

No one?

I wonder why.

Because a Space Wolfs' Loyalty to Russ and the Emporer is always unquestioned.

Demogerg wrote:Because a Space Wolfs' Loyalty to Russ and The Emperor is always unquestioned.

ZING! The only people we are not loyal to are the High Lords, because they are a bunch of Imposters who are dicks anyway, especially recently after what they did on Armageddon.

Demogerg wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Demogerg wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Now were arguing about who's is the MOST loyal to Russ?!?

No! Oh, dear god-emperor, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

what>?

no one ever said that.

No one?

I wonder why.

Because a Space Wolfs' Loyalty to Russ and the Emporer is always unquestioned.

And the wolfs never experienced the "red corsair incident" then....

1hadhq wrote:And the wolfs never experienced the "red corsair incident" then....

Nope, that was all lies and chaos Propaganda.

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:And the wolfs never experienced the "red corsair incident" then....

Nope, that was all lies and chaos Propaganda.

As is anything in a SW codex/novel SpaceWolves-propaganda...

1hadhq wrote:As is anything in a SW codex/novel SpaceWolves-propaganda...

Space Wolves do not Lie! We have Honour!

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:As is anything in a SW codex/novel SpaceWolves-propaganda...

Space Wolves do not Lie! We have Honour!

Propaganda must not include lies.

Sometimes, alcohol changes the story somehow from beating 1 opponent to defeating a whole army.

The wolves like a "colorful" description. Believe me, if 2 marines told you a story about their last battle, the space wolf would always claim he faced the bigger and scarier foes. And slew more of them.

1hadhq wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:As is anything in a SW codex/novel SpaceWolves-propaganda...

Space Wolves do not Lie! We have Honour!

Propaganda must not include lies.

Sometimes, alcohol changes the story somehow from beating 1 opponent to defeating a whole army.

The wolves like a "colorful" description. Believe me, if 2 marines told you a story about their last battle, the space wolf would always claim he faced the bigger and scarier foes. And slew more of them.

There is a very simple reason for that:

They did

1hadhq wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:As is anything in a SW codex/novel SpaceWolves-propaganda...

Space Wolves do not Lie! We have Honour!

Propaganda must not include lies.

Sometimes, alcohol changes the story somehow from beating 1 opponent to defeating a whole army.

Changes the story, but does not change the truth, and Space Wolves never lie, therefore the historical sagas they tell are complete truth.

The wolves like a "colorful" description. Believe me, if 2 marines told you a story about their last battle, the space wolf would always claim he faced the bigger and scarier foes. And slew more of them.

Because the space wolf did.

Gwar! wrote:

Demogerg wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Sanguinis.
The Dude has wings...nuff said.

Also, don't REALLY see the attraction of Russ. Sure he's heck funny to laugh at when he loses his temper but other than that the only thing going for him is that he's kind of got a dog-like affection for the Emprah.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An honorable mention to Vulkan. The founder of the "humanitarian" chapter.

Space Wolves are just as "humanitarian" as the Salamanders, but the Space Wolves have better fluff, and beer.

And we don't look like burn victims

Yeah but instead you're stinking drunks who need a haircut.

deadratman wrote:
you're stinking drunks who need a haircut.

If you could see a picture of me IRL you would understand the depth of the truth in this statement.

Gwar! wrote: ZING! The only people we are not loyal to are the High Lords, because they are a bunch of Imposters who are dicks anyway, especially recently after what they did on Armageddon.

Actually, that was the Adminstratum BASED on Armageddon. I doubt the High Lords even heard about the aftermath, if they even heard of the actual WAR.

Anyway, I what I meant was that I thought you two were starting to argue about which one of you loved Russ most.

The Gay, space viking frothing made me want to run for the hills! lol

Emperors Faithful wrote:Actually, that was the Adminstratum BASED on Armageddon. I doubt the High Lords even heard about the aftermath, if they even heard of the actual WAR.

Adminstratum, High Lords whatever. None of them Are The Emperor or Russ.

True. Except that picture in the Rulebook DOES make them look fething awesome!

Also, Russ does not = Sanguinius, so I'm sorry but your whole argument is moot.

Emperors Faithful wrote:True. Except that picture in the Rulebook DOES make them look fething awesome!

Also, Russ does not = Sanguinius, so I'm sorry but your whole argument is moot.

Yeah, Russ is awesome, Sanguinius is an Emo Bizzatch.

Glad we agree :3

Sanguinius is the closest you can get to the Emprah

(Chuck Norris is way above and beyond anyone)

Russ is the closest you can get to a rowdy hobo with a power axe.

I think Sanguinius pwns Russ here. Especially since Russ got a little bit BIATCH-slapped by the LION!

Gwar! wrote:

Adminstratum, High Lords whatever. None of them Are The Emperor or Russ.

RustyKnight wrote:Or Huron Blackheart.

Who Now?

has turtle pie been banned? and if not why isnt it on the vote?!?!

Gwar! wrote:

RustyKnight wrote:Or Huron Blackheart.

Who Now?

A man with a box of doggy treats.

lol

Talk, talk, talk.

Meanwhile, Russ has 57 votes. The next highest, at 25, are are the unnamed Primarchs. And THEN we have Sanguinius at 18.

Why are the unnamed even up there?

Gwar! wrote:Sanguinius is an Emo Bizzatch.

Are you kidding me? Sanguinius was, like most BA's, obsessed with personal beuaty. He was a pretty boy, not an Emo. Corax had more of the 'Oh woe is me!' schtick going on. So did Nighthaunter. Besides, Sang picked up the lord of all Bloodthirsters and snapped him over his knee. If that doesn't make him awesome, nothing will.

I don't know if Konrad was Emo, troubled yes, but emo not to sure.

I wouldn't call Konrad emo, just crazy.

Now The Lion and Corax, thems some emo bitches.

Also, what the hell is all this hate on Sanguinius? We all know he was a badass fighter. Far from Emo.

I don't hate him, I just like him less than Horus or Russ or Alpharius or Konrad or Dorn.

@Manchu: Hey, no fair that Russ "suddenly" got 30 votes when the others got squat. I swear this poll is rigged...(frown)

No one likes voting when the votes are against him.

BrotherStynier wrote:Why are the unnamed even up there?

Why Not? Are you just Jealous because Pretty Boy Angel is losing?

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Manchu: Hey, no fair that Russ "suddenly" got 30 votes when the others got squat. I swear this poll is rigged...(frown)

Manchu wrote:No one likes voting when the votes are against him.

Lets get this straight:

Poll at dakka
P: members may vote once
P: guests may vote too, but cannot be identified easily like members can
C: guest may vote several times. Just need a different address.

No problem to proof it.

#Visit dakka as guest.
#vote
#close your interweb connection
#reopen internet access
#vote again as a guest

and so on and so forth.

Polls open to guests can't be secured against "multivoting"

Gwar! wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:Why are the unnamed even up there?

Why Not? Are you just Jealous because Pretty Boy Angel is losing?

Hey, I've been going against Sanguinius this whole time, as noted several times my favorite, despite my liking of the Space Wolves and Night Lords, is Horus.

We cant help it you have terrible taste.

Gwar! wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:Why are the unnamed even up there?

Why Not? Are you just Jealous because Pretty Boy Angel is losing?

your just jelious your arch doesnt have sandals!!!! or errrr, gold armour?

alright, sanguinius kicked ass. sure he was a pretty little bitch sometimes, but that didn't change ANYTHING. he wasn't an emo bitch, he sacrificed himself to slow horus down so the emperor could get there in time. he broke the back of a bloodthirster over his BROKEN knee, that had before, broken BOTH OF HIS LEGS. lastly, HE CAN FLY!!!!! Russ was really cool, but i have to go with sanguinius. third choice, though, would have to be the lion. the last time he fought with a guy, the planet he was on shattered because of the pressure and extreme force between the two.

1hadhq wrote:Polls open to guests can't be secured against "multivoting"

"I demand a recount!!!" You'd fit right in here in America.

i dont know about that..... america is a pretty damn big place..... i think ill stop before i start speaking complete waffle(even though thats a bit late itself and stopping NOW!)!

Naw, go on. This thread has already proven the only possible point it could anyway.

Yeah, that Spaz Puppeh supporters are dirty cheats and have no respect for the democratic system! (Not that anyone in 40k goes for democracy anyway)

Democracy? THIS IS DAKKA!

im going to vote for the DUTP!(the Demacratic Union of Turtle Pie!)


need said i more?

No, that in itself will get you burnt at the stake as a heretic...

heracy is in the blood of an angel, as one would have to know what is wrong to know they are doing right....

...heresy?
Also, WTF was that last bit?

Pay no mind to the tiny Scotsperson.

try thinking a little, you must know what is bad to tell what is good, and read in reverse,

and heretics crimes are herecys...

...I think you misunderstand what heresy is. Yes, to some it is bad, but heresy is simply saying something contrary to anothers belief.

You support DUTP...which is heresy to those of pure hearts. Therefore...you are a heretic.

no, i have it fairly clear what that is, i think were just pretty much calling a cake a sponge, if you get where im coming from...

...no...?
I-I...don't get it...

We need an impartial party in this. I vote for Khaine.

I want to change my vote to Sigmar.

WOuldn't that be the Unknown Primarchs or is that outdated now?

Sigmar != Primarch

LIVE WITH IT!

?

Iwas under the impression that at one time GW was hinting at Sigmar being one of the lost primarchs?

BrotherStynier wrote:Iwas under the impression that at one time GW was hinting at Sigmar being one of the lost primarchs?

It was retconed

???

Forget retconned. They are just the Men in Black of GW, though less cool. There are WAY too many similarities between Sigmar and the other Primarchs history to just deny it.

Gwar! wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:Iwas under the impression that at one time GW was hinting at Sigmar being one of the lost primarchs?

It was retconed

That's too bad, I like having more connections between WHFB and 40k than the "Stargate" at the Northern Pole that turned into the Warp's primary breach into the FB world.

Russ would have a whole lot more appeal if there hadn't been a typo on the blueprints of his namesake...


The problem continued for several centuries before an administratum clerk noticed the typo.

Freaking double poast.

Manchu wrote:???

A good summary of this thread.


@ cheese elemental: where is Sly?

I've got to say Sanguinius. just because he can fly and broke the spine of a Bloodthirster over his knee.
And i play Ultramarines. Weird.

1hadhq wrote:

Manchu wrote:???

A good summary of this thread.


@ cheese elemental: where is Sly?

Hmmmmm.... Yes.....

Really?
A LEMON Russ??

HURR DURR CITRUS POWER

Sanguinius. I am with Emperors Faithful on this one.

You realize that a lemon refers to a used piece of crap car, right?

Sounds a lot like a leman (lemon) russ to me.
Used, piece of crap TANK. That can still blow you up with it's big middle finger.

Mortarion FTW! Love the whole wrapped in shredded rags and able to breathe gas that could probably kill the emperor and only get high.

Exarch_Nektel wrote:You realize that a lemon refers to a used piece of crap car, right?

Not in the porn industry it doesn't.

Shadow Nugz wrote:Mortarion FTW! Love the whole wrapped in shredded rags and able to breathe gas that could probably kill the emperor and only get high.

Nope, as the story goes Mortarion vowed to kill a certain evil dude up in the poisonious atmosphere without the Emprahs aid. (before he got his legion) He sucumbed to the poisons and fell uncouncious, but the the Emprah just walked up to the bad dude, smacked him down, and carried Mortarion to safety. As a result Mortarion had to swaer fealty to Emprah.

No single Primarch could take on the Emprah. Not even Horus with ALL the Chaos gods behind him.

I see the Wolf King is still easily winning this poll.

Via Cheating.

Does this shrill conspiracy theory of yours really allow you to continue thinking that a rational mind could actually prefer Dracula-Barbie to Leman Russ?

My favorite (non-obvious) thing about this poll right now (given that it should be declared closed and its result considered a matter of scientific law) is that Rogal Dorn--of all people--is beating out the Lion.

Eh, I have to admit, even without the "magic 30 votes" that were deposited, Russ would still be in the lead. At least Sanguinius is in the Final 3.

Dorn...was a jackass. Lion...was disturbed. Take your pick.

Well, we can agree that Dracula-Barbie is better than either of those two. Still, Dorn gets too raw a deal around here, especially from you EF. Did you ever read that Lexicanum article more closely, as I suggested?

No. I'm kind of lazy like that.

But after reading through several backrounds of traitor legions history before Horus Heresy, it certainly LOOKS like Dorn is a jackass. (from White Dwarf)

Firstly, Dorn boasts and brags about how impenatrable the fortress of Terra is to Pertuabo (Iron Warriors) and how he could never breach it.
Then he attacks the Night Lord primarch (who is slightly distubed and sad) for having visions about the Emprah killing him and calls him an ungrateful such-and-such.
Also (with gulliman) makes fun of Alphurious (Alpha Legion) as he was last Primarch and cannot hope to achieve what they have.

Finnaly, gets 400 hundred of his dudes killed for nothing in Pertuabo's trap, through sheer stubborness. (Gulliman had to bail him out)

Well, given all that you've just said (or rather restated), I think you'd better look at Dorn's entry. His worst flaw, IMO, is being just a shade less vanilla than Roboute.

Manchu wrote:Well, given all that you've just said (or rather restated), I think you'd better look at Dorn's entry. His worst flaw is being really really emo and a cry baby.

Fixed.

Dreadwinter wrote:

Manchu wrote:Well, given all that you've just said (or rather restated), I think you'd better look at Dorn's entry. His worst flaw is being really really emo and a cry baby.

Fixed.

That's rich coming from a Sanguinius supporter.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Sounds a lot like a leman (lemon) russ to me.
Used, piece of crap TANK. That can still blow you up with it's big middle finger.

Hmmm, yeah. Didn't really think about that.
Hopefully it's "big middle-finger" is a non-functional piece of crap too. It seems to be every time I face it in battle.

heh, the Blast from my leman russ always seems to scatter away from targets and smack bang on combats.

Manchu wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:

Manchu wrote:Well, given all that you've just said (or rather restated), I think you'd better look at Dorn's entry. His worst flaw is being really really emo and a cry baby.

Fixed.

That's rich coming from a Sanguinius supporter.

Just taking pot shots at anything that moves huh?

Guilty. You have to when things move so seldom, lol.

(run for the door)

Emperors Faithful wrote:(run for the door)

BANG!

We'll have to wait til October, when the Codex comes out, to see if that was a hit.

(slump)

Emperors Faithful wrote:No. I'm kind of lazy like that.

But after reading through several backrounds of traitor legions history before Horus Heresy, it certainly LOOKS like Dorn is a jackass. (from White Dwarf)

Firstly, Dorn boasts and brags about how impenatrable the fortress of Terra is to Pertuabo (Iron Warriors) and how he could never breach it.
Then he attacks the Night Lord primarch (who is slightly distubed and sad) for having visions about the Emprah killing him and calls him an ungrateful such-and-such.
Also (with gulliman) makes fun of Alphurious (Alpha Legion) as he was last Primarch and cannot hope to achieve what they have.

Finnaly, gets 400 hundred of his dudes killed for nothing in Pertuabo's trap, through sheer stubborness. (Gulliman had to bail him out)

Dorn was asked by Fulgrim as to whether or not he felt Pert could take down his fortress and since he cannot lie he said Pert could not. Night Haunter attacked Dorn after Dorn confronted him about the vision. And I don't recall him making fun of Alpharius.

He got the 400 "dudes" killed because it was his, and his Legion's, way of repenting part of their failures during the Heresy. Also they had to die as the Codex states no more than 1000 active Brothers.

But Dorn doesn't obey the codex.

Yes Dorn does obey the Codex, so do the Imperial Fists, his Legion.

Russ, and Sigmund don't obey the Codex.

BrotherStynier wrote:He got the 400 "dudes" killed because it was his, and his Legion's, way of repenting part of their failures during the Heresy. Also they had to die as the Codex states no more than 1000 active Brothers.

Well put. But who is this Sigmund praytell?

The First Captain of the Imperial Fists, First Emperor's Champion, First (edit) High Marshal of the Black Templars.

Apparently he was number one...

Manchu wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:He got the 400 "dudes" killed because it was his, and his Legion's, way of repenting part of their failures during the Heresy. Also they had to die as the Codex states no more than 1000 active Brothers.

Well put. But who is this Sigmund praytell?

He means Sigismund, the founder of the Black templars.

Yeah that's the spelling...

And technically Dorn founded them, Sigismund just lead them.

Oh right! Stupid of me.

Sigismund used to be Dorn's second in command, basically. I always thought it a bit odd that BT came out of Dorn giving into Roboute's demands and yet BT not themselves giving in. Do you think they were noncompliant from the beginning, stopped following the Codex after Dorn's death, or were Dorn's way of evading strict compliance and thereby preserving the old ways? I can't imagine BT being noncompliant from their founding if it was against Dorn's wishes--come on, disloyalty has to be the worst thing ever among IF.

I think they might have started right of the bat, using the whole "Crusade Claus" loop whole Roboute left in the Codex. I'm sure Dorn didn't want his brother to have the last word...

Well, if Dorn felt guilty about his "failures" during the Heresy, think of what he thought Guilliman should be feeling. I wouldn't have wanted that guy to shape the future of Spess Mehrenz, either.

Would have been a hell of an argument.

Roboute:"You let our father die! Looks like you're little Forts aren't as good as you thought!"

Dorn:"Yeah and what did you do? You sat all cozy on the Eastern Fringe, letting our father die! I'll tell you where to put that Codex..."

Speaking of which, I'm not sure if you saw my abridged HH.

Manchu wrote:
THE HORUS HERESY

Emprah: Hours, go reconquer the galaxy so there can be a new golden age.
Horus: But I should be Emprah, bawwwwww!

Emprah: Magnus, stop it with the sorcery.
Magnus: But I know what's best, bawwwwww!

Emprah: Horus, tell Russ to bring Magnus to me because I said so.
Horus: Emprah wants you to kill Magnus because he said so.
Russ: Fine. Emprah's always right. Plus Ole Red has already been denounced as a traitor and I never liked him anyway.

Russ: You're about to die, cyclops!
Magnus: O noes! Tzeentch, I choose you! Bawwwww!
Russ: Ah well. Now to go kill Horus.

Russ: Rowboat, how have you not been doing anything?
Guilliman: . . . I've been writing a book.
Russ: Sigh. Let's go.
Guilliman: And I fought the Word Bearers!

Horus: Oh shi--Spess Puppies a'comin?
Abbadon: And the Ultramarines, sir.
Horus: Who? Anyway, this looks bad. *enter Sanguinis* What are you doing here? Come to join me?
Sanguinius: *throws self on Horus's power claws* Alas, I am undone! When you play Castlevania, remember me!
*enter Emprah*
Emprah: Horus! So my favorite son killed my favorite daughter!
Horus: What about the Lion?
Emprah: Never liked her.
Horus: No one does. Now prepare to die! *mortally wounds Emprah*
Emprah: Au contraire, you dick. *kills Horus*

Dorn: Okay, now I just plug this into this and . . . okay, it works! Emprah? Hellooooo?

Jonson: I did nothing!
Guilliman: I did more nothing that you!
Jonson: Nuh-uh. I was the most worthless!
Guilliman: Have you read my book?
Dorn: No one likes that book.
Khan: C'mon guys. It's not that bad.
Dorn: I guess not.
Russ: You all suck. Ima go bring the Emprah back to life.

lol That's great. I'll have to save it in mah email for future reference.

I know I saw it.

Lol, that's very flattering.

@manchu

I enjoyed your abrdiged Horus Heresy as well

@ all

I voted for Angron. Out of all of the primarchs he was the only one who had a valid reason for turning to chaos. Please let me explain in paraphrase.

Angron fell to a world full of gladiator types. Naturally he was the best. But he was still a slave, so him and his gladiator followers attacked their captors and fled to the mountains. They were fighting the invaders and were more than likely going to be killed do to insuffcuent tech/weapons.

Enter the Emprah. He tells Angron that he is going to pull him off the planet and let all of his brother that he has fought and died with eat it hard. Angron says the Emprah can shove that and that he would rather die with his brothers.

Now, logically the Emprah is supposed to be all smart, with a bunch of marines that he wants Angron to lead. Why doesnt he send those guys to crush and forces against Angron and then enlist all of his gladiator types as new recruits?

Nope. Emprah says instead I will teleport you out so you can watch your men die. Now please be loyal and love me. Also, if you are angry and sometimes hurt the enemies of mankind that is wrong.

Ridiculous! Angron is 100% justified for hating the Emprah and actually all of the space marines that didn't help him.

Modquisition on. Play nice or this thread will be closed.

Will do Grand Inquisitor Frazzled!

You might have issues with the Space Pups though, I hear they don't like Inquisitors!

ruff!

Frazzled wrote:ruff!

Bite like an Inquisitor, bark like a Space Wolf.

HERETIC!

Floats like a butterfly!
Stings like a bee!
Gets squashed like a bug...

Bodichi wrote:Angron is 100% justified for hating the Emprah and actually all of the space marines that didn't help him.

I see your point and think it's a very good one in some aspects. But I wonder that it isn't a bit like the story of Magnus: a primarch thinks that he knows what is best and so defies the Emperor. That defiance quite simply makes him a traitor. In the case of Angron, it happened at his reunion with the Emperor. The Emperor was not requesting that Angron join him but rather was ordering him to do so. The primarchs were made for a purpose and were not simply free to choose whether or not to become the generals of the Emperor's crusade. Such powerful beings could not be left to their own devices because they might threaten his plans. Hence the gravity of Horus's rebellion. I would not be surprised if the two missing primarchs resisted the destiny that the Emperor created them for and so were eliminated.

Dreadwinter wrote:You might have issues with the Space Pups though, I hear they don't like Inquisitors!

Feth the Inquisition.

Manchu wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:You might have issues with the Space Pups though, I hear they don't like Inquisitors!

Feth the Inquisition.

Awww, that's a good doggie!

Play dead, mutt.

Dreadwinter wrote:Awww, that's a good doggie!

What's that you say? The Inquisition can't actually do anything without the help of Space Marines, Battle Sisters, or Guardsmen?

Emperors Faithful wrote:Play dead, mutt.

And what? The Inquisition fails at ordering Space Wolves around like the others?

Just checking to make sure I heard right. I agree and those are good points. Helps to explain why no other primarch has even half the votes of Russ. Although, I've heard some whiny-britches moaning about conspiracies to cheat Dracula-Barbie out of first place. But why tell you that? I'm sure an Inquisitor would know heresy when he heard it.

But to get back on-topic: Angron was property of the Emperor, like all other primarchs--even Magnus. None of them have a "right" to be pissed at him. He created them for a specific purpose. If they failed to live up to it or betrayed it, they should feel lucky that he didn't kill them outright before the heresy. (Which is probably what happened to the two missing ones--who still have more votes than Sanguinius.)

Now you know we were joking man-chew (cept the part about Russ supporters cheating).

Also, you know as well as I that the Emprah loved the Primarchs like his own sons. (Explians why it took so much to convince him of far Horus had fallen). I really doubt that the Emprah had the heart to kill his own. Even if the other two missing primarchs were resistant (like angron) the Emprah would have kidnapped them (like Angron) and attempted to persuade them otherwise. It seems much more likely that the two primarchs were simply lost to the sands of time, caught in obscurity. It HAS been over 10 millenium, you know.

@ Manchu

I completly get what you are saying "What right does a tool have to question its maker?" Fari enough, but for all of the Emprah's vaunted wisdom he sure went about gathering some of his primarchs in a less than stellar way.

I would say that Magnus's case was different than Angron's in that Magnus was specifically forbiden from sorcery after he accepted the Emprah's command and took up the mantle of leading his followers. Angron had no idea there even was and Emprah until he was told to leave his men behind for him

Imagine instead of what happened you have this scenario: The Emprah finds Angron and his men holed up in a mountain awaiting their inevitable doom. He lets Angron know there is more outside the galaxy than this little planet. Angron insists he will die with his men. The instead of being a putz, the Emprah says okay I will transport you and your men to YOUR future ship with YOUR future warriors on it. We will equip you and your men with the best tech ever and then you can come down and beat the ever living piss out of these (what ever his enemies were called) for me, the Emprah.

Now there is no way Angron goes to chaos if that happened. You are correct, in that Angron had no business rebelling anyway, but the Emprah is a fool for using the tactics he did. Angron would have been the most loyal Primarch ever if the Emprah had treated him right.

On a side note, beside Angron, Lorgar is the only Primarch who had a reasonable excuse to turn to chaos. You spend your whole life waiting for your divine being to descend from the heavens. When he does he says there are no divine beings..... now what. But he is still not as justified as Angron

But what would have happened if the emperor condoned this rebellion? For that is what it was, a gladitorial uprising against the authorities (who may themselves have kneeled before the Imperium). Regardless of whether or not his son was invovled, there would then be countless uprisings as tales spread of the Emprah condoneing, and in fact aiding, an uprising against the rightful authorities.

Emperors Faithful (aptly named), Bodichi: You both make good points that provoke deeper understanding.

It seems to me that in the days of the Great Crusade every system not yet in compliance was in rebellion. (This is the moral of the Tales of Heresy piece Wolf at the Door.) The ultimate "rightful authority" is therefore the Emperor in all cases. If the unnamed planet of Angron's youth was ruled by a people that bowed to the Emperor upon his arrival, as Emperors Faithful suggests, then they would indeed be the "rightful authorities" of that planet and Angron's revolt would be also against the Emperor--and, as Emperors Faithful points out, that would be intolerable. This is, however, just speculation. The fate of Angron's "homeworld" is unknown. But the general point stands: the Emperor would not allow any Primarch, the most powerful individuals in the galaxy other than him, to rebel against legitimate authority, namely his own.

Now, Bodichi notes that the Emperor was a fool to stir up in Angron's heart the sparks of rebellion by treating him so harshly. That may be true and may be the root cause for Angron's eventual downfall. But it could also be that the Emperor was teaching Angron a lesson: namely, "you will not disobey me; you will not be an agent of rebellion; you will be an obedient agent of my vision for humanity rather than your own ideas." This is the same lesson that Magnus and Lorgar failed to learn. (We could have a good discussion, I think, about whether the Emperor intended them to fail or at least foresaw their failure. I, for one, do not think that the Emperor seriously rejected his own divinity or was actually committed to rooting out all religion. Decimating all other forms of religion is, after all, a very effective precursor to installing a universal one that could unite an otherwise disparate and impossibly far-flung empire.)

You could argue that the Emperor was simply a bad teacher to them but I would content that the Primarchs, either because of or in spite of the fact that they were all superhuman not only in strength but also intelligence, could have reasoned that the Emperor knew best and so they should keep in line. This same superhuman faculty, however, also resulted in pride. The pride of Milton's Satan, to be specific: "I know better than my maker what my purpose is and so should rule myself." Lorgar is the clearest example of this and also the most ironic (so thank you for bringing him up). In any case, while the traitor's each have a tragic story leading to their damnation (except Horus, who is strangely unsympathetic) none have or had a right to rebel.

Mabye if Angron had not been so flagrant in his scorning of the Emprahs aid, the Emperor may have done otherwise. Perhaps if Angron had not been too proud to BEG for the lives of his men, then the Emprah may have listened. But definitely a good point there. I know however, that it would take more than a refusal to join the Emprah to make him kill his son (refutal of the fate of the two unkown).

Don't know about Lorgar, but for the others:
1) Mortairion: After failing to kill baddie himself (Emprah saved him), in return he is FORCED to swear allegiance to the Emprah. Doesn't like it.
2) Konrad: Repeatedly had wracked visions of Emprah killing him, and deeply truamatised.
3) Alphurius never really knew the Emprah on a personal level, closer ties to Horus.

So...Why FULGRIM? WHYYYYYYY?!?!?!?!?

Emperors Faithful wrote:So...Why FULGRIM? WHYYYYYYY?!?!?!?!?

That is a very good question when you ponder the details of the story and look for "justification" (IMO there are no justifications for the Heresy), but ultimately (and more obviously than any other Primarch) Fulgrim succumbed to pride.

As to the lost legions: It is clear that the Emperor would not kill his sons for simply refusing to join them. We can learn that from Angron's story. I would propose that the other two betrayed him, foreshadowing the much grander and more terrible Horus Heresy.

Look, GW left those two guys to be open to interperation. I don't think the Emprah killed them, even if they went renegade. (He couldn't even bring himself to kill Konrad when he went psycopathic) They were simply lost to the wear and tear of history.

Deja Vu: It HAS been over 10 millenium, okay?

Just to put this out there. I never whined about the votes. Not that I remember anyways.

I am content with knowing how awesome Sanguinius is, don't care if others do or not. /shrug

Emperors Faithful wrote:Look, GW left those two guys to be open to interperation. I don't think the Emprah killed them, even if they went renegade. (He couldn't even bring himself to kill Konrad when he went psycopathic) They were simply lost to the wear and tear of history.

Deja Vu: It HAS been over 10 millenium, okay?

It's simply my proposal for the purposes of discussing the world of 40k as if it is a serious subject meriting discussion, as I think it is. I know very well that it is a fact that GW's motives are preeminently to make money and that leaving gaps is a marketing tool. What I don't understand is why the discussion I just mentioned must always be reduced to that crude fact. Further, I don't understand why people who think it is necessary to do so would bother posting in the fluff section of this forum. Finally, it is canonically untrue that the nameless Primarchs were simply "lost to the wear and tear of history" in light of the short exchange between Malcador and Dorn in the novel Mechanicum. Whatever way you interpret Malacador's words, one thing is clear: the lost legions were lost before the heresies and not over the course of ten millennia.

@Dreadwinter: Sanguinius is awesome, as we agreed earlier in this thread. Pity he died. It'd be over for Chaos, as you mentioned, if he and Russ returned together.

1) Hadn't read Horus Heresy Novels so didn't know about conversation, but I thought you REALLY meant that the two had been "offed" by the Emprah, I see now it was just a proposal.

2) Both are awesome. (even Russ in a I-like-dogs kind of way).

You really should think about reading them. They're very entertaining IMO.

I voted for Leman Russ, because the Space Wolves are my favorite of the official First Founding Legions.

I also like [Stricken from Imperial Archives].

[Stricken from Imperial Archives] are one of the coolest things about the 40k background. I hope they never change.

Russ did relent in the end and split his chapter into the ill fated Wolf brothers so he did in fact listen to guillaman. sure he did not follow the codex but he did split his legion, this does not sound like he told guillaman where to go.

Its the retconned HH that has people thinking Russ was conned into killing magnus by Horus, the old Fluff has that order from the EMP himself. also the Custodes were sent with Russ so he was sanctioned by the EMP, if he was not then the custodes would not have been there as Horus had no control over the custodes.

Also funny how when this poll was done a few years ago Russ was no where near as popular as he is now. Hmm could be the new codex. Brings in a lot of new blood to the fang

beef wrote:Also funny how when this poll was done a few years ago Russ was no where near as popular as he is now. Hmm could be the new codex. Brings in a lot of new blood to the fang

Who was in the lead back then?

Also, I'd say the HH "retconning" may have something to do with this.

Or it could be that all the Space Wolves players just started playing again after 5th edition came out because 4th was bad for us (or so I hear, I quit back when 3rd edition came out, started playing again with 5th)

Demogerg wrote:Or it could be that all the Space Wolves players just started playing again after 5th edition came out because 4th was bad for us (or so I hear, I quit back when 3rd edition came out, started playing again with 5th)

Maybe, I didn't think there was too much of a difference.

But there is this perspective. I will quote the relevant portion:

As the Space Wolves had been intended for 3rd edition, they were heavily geared towards close combat while Warhammer 40K 4th edition was about moving, shooting and hiding behind large clumps of cover. Space Wolves, who specialised in aggressive charges were suddenly unable to leap out of their transports and bound into close combat. Meanwhile the rapid codex revisions of the Space Marines and other armies, left the Space Wolves overpriced and underpowered.

In any case, I'd still like to know approximately when the poll you (beef) are talking about happened and who won.

@Manchu and Emperors Faithful

Great retorts gentlmen excuse my late reply I was painting a house (ugh!)

Any way I see how if (and that is a big mysterious if) the planet that Angron was on was somehow someway sympathetic to be taken over to the rule of the Emprah. Then and only then do I see Angron's reason for heresy being debunked and him merely another wayward primarch. However, if the planet that Angron was on was not partial to the Emprah, that what better way to not only engender trust in to your new found son (Angron) than to give him a legion of warriors raised with his specific gene seed, to wrest the planet from the hands of his tormentors. Had this happens the out come is vastly different.

I see Angron more akin to a dog (no offence meant) in the ways of loyalty and obedience. He is not a rocket scientist, nor a schemer, nor an articulate primarch. Had the Emprah earned his trust instead of spurning him, I feel that it may well have been the world eaters going to destroy Magnus or left behind on terra to defend the Emprah.

As for Lorgar, youare both correct. Not only did the Emprah tell him that his religion was wrong but that all religon was wrong. And he tells this to a man looking for and answer as to which one is correct and the answer is none. What a huge mental let down. Lorgar had to be spirtually distraught after that answer. Infact I would feel that though Angron could not articulate his feelings he would feel that same as Lorgar. One valuing martial skill and honor, another praise and worhsip, and both being told that those are all meaningless compared to the glory of the Emprah!

@ Manchu

Your are also correct in pointing out the strangeness of Horus not being sympathetic in the least??? How Strange.

Manchu wrote:I don't understand why people like Sanguinis so much. But then again I don't understand why people like that movie (or those books) "Twilight," either. My guess is that these things are connected.

Yeah same.

Sanguinius Sucks Compared to Fulgrim.

Manchu wrote: Angron was property of the Emperor, like all other primarchs--even Magnus. None of them have a "right" to be pissed at him. He created them for a specific purpose. If they failed to live up to it or betrayed it, they should feel lucky that he didn't kill them outright before the heresy.

Slavery? I thought most people thought that slavery is bad, mmmkay.

RustyKnight wrote:Slavery? I thought most people thought that slavery is bad, mmmkay.

40k much?

RustyKnight wrote:

Manchu wrote: Angron was property of the Emperor, like all other primarchs--even Magnus. None of them have a "right" to be pissed at him. He created them for a specific purpose. If they failed to live up to it or betrayed it, they should feel lucky that he didn't kill them outright before the heresy.

Slavery? I thought most people thought that slavery is bad, mmmkay.

Its a pretty good idea that if you think something is sick or sadistic or just bad, somebody in 40k is probably into it.

Dreadwinter wrote:Its a pretty good idea that if you think something is sick or sadistic or just bad, somebody in 40k is probably into it.

You can pretty much bet that it has its own divisio within the Administratum.

Manchu wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:Its a pretty good idea that if you think something is sick or sadistic or just bad, somebody in 40k is probably into it.

You can pretty much bet that it has its own divisio within the Administratum.

Ooooh, pot shot?

Dreadwinter wrote:Ooooh, pot shot?

Nope, absolute agreement.

I think this thread has a lot more going for it than the Chaos vs Nids thread.

I voted Russ. Dude the fething tank is named after him. THE fething TANK.

nuff said

There's a Chaos v. Nids thread? Going on without me? Lol.

Manchu wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:Ooooh, pot shot?

Nope, absolute agreement.

Sure sure

@Dreadwinter:

Also, @Bodichi: A great example of what I'm talking about is the story called Scions of the Storm in "Tales of Heresy."

Is Lorgar the primarch of the Word Bearers?

Horus just because he was that one different one lol. I don't even play chaos =P

Emperors Faithful wrote:Is Lorgar the primarch of the Word Bearers?

Yes.