Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Warning: The following post makes use of logic and deduction. If the use of Logic applied to the background of Warhammer 40k gives you a brain aneurysm from the mere thought, please step away now.

After reading though a couple of the older threads on Dakka and others about the size of Great Companies, I've noticed a trend of people assuming that they are much larger than a Codex Company and that the Space Wolves Great Companies range anywhere from 600 marines to 6,000 marines.

And just to get this out of the way now, if this all seems familiar, it is. This thread is a huge rewrite of a thread I posted a while back on Warseer, so if you read that quite a bit here might seem similar too.

Firstly I want to point out that I do understand where the idea of a huge Space Wolves legion comes from. Space Wolves are to many the most reminiscent of the pre-heresy Legions, who along with the Salamanders and Iron hands seem to, for lack of a better analogy, use the Codex Astrates as highly absorbent loo roll. And after all, if the Black Templars can have so many, why cant the Wolves (Firstly the Black Templars just recruit from whatever worlds they come across, and second they are a bunch of Fanatical Emperor Worshipping Loyalists, not horrible Mutated wolves who fire at nosy Inquisitors ships).

Now being a Long time Space Wolf fan and player (I have been playing 40k and Space Wolves since the beginning of 3rd edition, and had been a big fluff fan in the dying throes of 2nd) I admit I did submit to that school of thought, imagining the Sons of Russ massing in their thousands to defend mankind from whatever is next in line for a good kick in the Bawlz.

However, in the past year or so I have a bit of a rethink in that regard. Perhaps being older and wiser I can look back with a slightly more objective eye. And the more I thought about it, the more such large companies didn't make the slightest bit of sense, especially if one looked at the big picture compared to Codex Marines.

What now follows is a systematic approach to a number of issues that I have considered with regards to the Space Wolves and the Size of a Great Company (and by extension the chapter). For the purpose of comparison and to help put my arguments into context, I shall be using the oh so perfect Ultramarines as an example of a typical codex chapter. While not strictly true, there is more information about them than anyone else, and for this discussion they fit the bill close enough.

So, to as a special treat for all of you, I give you this monster as my 1,000th post!

Premise:
Space Wolf Great companies are, in fact, not larger than a Codex company and may in fact be slightly smaller than one, similar in the way the Salamanders have fewer marines than most codex chapters.

What we know about Codex Chapters:
According to the Codex Astrates, as laid down by Roboute Guilliman,a chapter of the Adeptus Astartes consists of 10 Companies, (A veteran Company, Four Battle Companies, Two Tactical Companies, One Assault Company, One Devastator Company and a Scout Company), with a Space Marine Captain, Apothecary, Company Standard and Chaplain for each company.

Each Company (with the exception of the scout company) at full strength consist of 10 Squads of 10 Marines, along with the Command Staff for that Company.
It is clear from that alone that a fully operational Chapter that never takes casualties, consists of a fair bit more than 1000 Marines. The best research on the matter I have found, a wonderful article called “The Thousand Marine Myth”, puts the estimate at at least 1500 Astartes. As such, I shall be using the concept of a 1,500 man Full strength chapter as the standard in this thread.

For ease of reading I have broken up my “evidence” as such into separate points. Each point will consist of a title, a full description and a short summery at the end.

Point #1: Homeworlds
The Ultramarines hail from the Ultramar sector, which has a collection of no less than 8 star systems that the Ultramarines call home. This collection of planets is regarded as something of a Sparking Diamond in the black ocean of shittyness that is the Imperium. Each is self sufficient and prosperous, despite the wide range of environments they contain. The population enjoy a level of comfort, education and prosperity unlike anywhere else in the Imperium. The Towering Spires of Necromunda or the harsh Hives of Armageddon have no place here.

This is not to say they are all fat internet nerds playing intergalactic chess. Oh no. With perhaps the exception of Cadia, Ultramar is the most highly militarised sector of the Imperium. The vast majority of the population are enlisted within each planets PDF, each able and willing to join the Imperial Guard whenever the need arises.
So, Billions and Billions of well developed, educated and highly trained adolescents just ripe for the picking.

And then we have Fenris. Fenris is akin to Ultramar in the fact that they are Planets. Past that, there are very few similarities. For those who may not know, while the Ultramar system is technologically advanced, Fenris is a feral world. It's population have a technology level akin to that of the Vikings in the years 800 CE – 1000 CE. Every day is a struggle for survival.

Fenris is a Land of extremes. It consists mostly of a single huge ocean, with a single continent upon the planets' upper pole known as Asaheim (which only the Space Wolves and a few “in the know” clans live), while the planet spanning ocean is dotted with thousands of Volcanic Islands (where all the other poor sods live). Its highly elliptical orbit roughly the length of 2 Standard Terran years. This long orbit results in high extremes of temperature in Summer and Winter.

A Fenrisan winter is cold and harsh. So cold in fact that large swathes of ocean are known to freeze over. The summers aren't much better. Not only does the crust strain under the additional heat and gravity caused by it being so much closer to its sun, it also passes through an asteroid belt, causing huge meteors to fall from the sky, causing tsunami and earthquakes. This as expected, kind of messes up the whole “lets live on the volcanic island that provide the only land we can live on” lifestyle, so the natives ride it out, praying their little island doesn't disappear.

As you would expect, that rarely happens. Once things calm down a bit, those Fenrisans who lost their homes (i.e. All of them) go off in search of new living space. Sadly, others want it too, leading to brutal clan wars over the vital land.

And if that wasn't bad enough, if you are deemed unworthy at birth, they just drown you. Even if you do survive the brutal winters and summers, from the age of about 6 or 7 (12-14 Terran years) you are considered to be a man, and go off to slaughter others when summer comes around.
Sounds utterly Delightful.

In Conclusion:
Ultramarines: Recruit from a cluster of well populated, advanced worlds with a potential recruitment Pool of hundreds of billions.

Space Wolves: Recruit from a Single world with a population conceivability in the tens of millions, who are at a Viking Era technology level.

Point #2: Selection Criteria
Sadly there is little to go on regarding the actual practices of how the Ultramarines select their recruits. Do they have recruitment drives? Do they go around rounding up random teenagers? I have not been able to find anything concrete. However, one can assume that because of the civilised nature of the Ultramar worlds, just randomly kidnapping kids would be a bit off, especially since “Throughout Ultramar proud citizens point to public statues of famous Ultramarines who were born to local families. Amongst the older aristocratic dynasties it is a matter of considerable esteem to provide recruits for the Space Marines.”
From that sentence I can sort of see that each person can apply to be tested to see if they are compatible for Astartes training and the most compatible are taken of their own free will.
Apologies for the lack of information on this point as I could not find anything more detailed.

The selection criteria for Fenrisans however is detailed much more graphically.

After each summer, during the period of what one could call Autumn, the Fenrisans take to the seas in search of new islands to live on. This is a dangerous journey, as being in the middle of a huge Ocean filled with whales the size of skyscrapers, Sea Dragons and Krakan is hardly a stay in the Ritz. It is imperative that each clan find land as soon as possible and take it. Even if someone else is there already.

These newly formed island are generally small, barely capable of housing one clan, let alone two. As such, when one clan make landfall on a claimed island, more often than not a bloody battle will ensue, one of pure barbarian rage as each man fights for his clan. It is these battles that the Wolf Priests of the Space Wolves watch upon from a distance, sometimes going so far as to make themselves a known presence. Native Fenrisans are kept ignorant of the Space Wolves true identity, instead being mythical “Warriors from the Gods” who take those who prove themselves in battle to become Warriors of Russ, who has achieved a sort of collective god-like mythical status for Fenrisans.

These Wolf Priests watch the battle, and during/after goes to those who fell in battle, for only those with the courage to meet death are worthy for the gods (although rarely select those few who have slaughtered so many of the enemy there are none left to kill him), bringing them back from the brink of death with Arcane Technologies, they bring these half dead blokes back to the Asaheim for their induction to the Space Wolves (detailed later on)

In Conclusion:
Ultramarines: Select via a rigorous screening from people who volunteer.

Space Wolves: Select whoever had enough balls to have otherwise fatal wounds in barbarian battle.

Point #3: Geneseed
As much a Point of argument as any, the Geneseed for the Ultramarines is, without a doubt, one of the most stable there is. Only the Dark Angels is comparable, but even then its more temperamental (so I have heard) and the High Lords trust the Dark Angels as much as we all trust that out of luck Nigerian Prince. It is a testament of the geneseed that it is still complete and able to support so many different initiate genetic profiles even after 10,000 years of use, hasn't mutated much, and is all in all very versatile.
Just some of the reasons why 90% of all Space Marines in M41 are of Ultramarine decent (the reason in M31 being they did bugger al during the Heresy)

Space Wolves on the other hand, have a highly mutated and unstable geneseed, prone to all sorts of dodgyness and instability. The Lengthening of the canine teeth with age as well as premature greying of the hair are two benign side affects of this, with the tendency to turn into a bestial hairy wolf-man a less than benign one.
But even then, its different for every Wolf. Many examples have been detailed of some Space Wolves “ageing” faster than others, with one Wolf Lord looking older than 700 year old Logan Grimnar despite being half that age, and one being almost as old as the Great Wolf himself but still having bright orange hair.

Which brings me to one of the two major advantages I can see that the Space Wolf Geneseed has. The first is Longevity. While it's true we haven't heard many tales of Ultramarines being so old, that might be because they lose their “edge” a lot faster so are killed in battle before it becomes noticeable. I mean, Logan is one of the oldest Marines there are, second to perhaps Dante (not including freak cases like Chaos Marines, Marines Stuck in the Warp or held in stasis). At 700 years old, he's hardly in the Prime of his life, but shows no signs of being anything but at peak efficiency. Contrast this to the Ultramarines, where Cassius, at a “mere” 400 years old is one of the oldest, most venerable Marines.

The second advantage is that of the Canis Helix. While a form of this implant exists for all marines regardless of Genetic heritage (this is in fact the first Implant an aspirant receives, for without it no other organs will work), the Space Wolves one has mutated significantly and is the cause of their possible change into Wulfen. However, in return it has given the Space Wolves a preternatural resistance to the lure of Chaos. Not much is known about the exact workings, but it is known that it is because of the Canis Helix very few Wolves fall to Chaos completely (After all, the 13th Company Seem to be doing aright after 10,000 years in the Eye of Terror. They may be mutated a little, but they certainly are not Chaos.)

Of course none of that helps when you get crazy Inquistors and most of the Ecclesiacity wanting to string them up for it.

Ultramarines: Stable, uncorrupted and resilient Geneseed

Space Wolves: Utterly broken and corrupted, but with a few choice benefits to compensate.

Point #4: Implantation Rituals
From what little has been written about it, I can say that most certainly the Ultramarines have had the implantations ritualised with a lot of needless blessing and rubbish, but it is done in a methodical and stable way, each initiate having each organ implanted safely and monitored to make sure they survive the transformation. Between implantations they are subject to hypnotherapy, chemotherapy and basic training for when they become Scouts (since we know it takes a few years to safely put all the implants in) so that no time is wasted in their training, all the while being monitored by the Apothecaries for any sign of rejection. After all, no point in wasting all that investment only for him to die of Kidney Failure after a week.

The Space Wolves however, go the opposite route. After spending a few Months training as normal humans on the slopes of Asaheim, which many do not survive anyway, they are implanted with the Canis Helix, drink a chemical mixture to kick start the organ into activity, and are given a huge feast of meat and ale.
They then wake up to find themselves being kicked out of a Thunderhawk by a Wolf Priest with nothing but a thin tunic and stone knife, thousands of miles from the Fang (easily noticeable since its the largest mountain on Fenris, so high its peak is actually in orbit) and told “Walk Back or die”.

Yeah... Charming.

So, they begin this journey back, across terrain that should kill any moral man. Not only are they in such hostile terrain, their bodies are being racked by the transformations the Canis Helix brings. Those who fail to find meat on the barren slopes perish. Those who are too weak to fight off the multitude of predators upon the slopes, also perish. Those who are weak of spirit succumb to the Wolf Within, turning into the beasts known as wulfen, Mad raving Beasts who do not live very long before dying. Those who do manage to somehow survive are taken and nursed back to health, before having the same routine of hypnotherapy and training that Ultramarine Initiates have before being stuck in some Power Armour.

In Conclusion:
Ultramarines: While ritualistic and of course harsh, the transition from human to neophyte is structured and monitored, making sure each organ implant done is pure and stable.

Space Wolves: The final test before becoming a Blood Claw involves them having the Canis Helix alone implanted, being dumped thousands of miles away from The Fang pretty much naked except for a stone knife, and told to walk back, all the while being mutated by the Canis Helix with a very real possibility of either just dying outright or mutating into a Wulfen.

Point #5: Training Techniques
For Ultramarines, the training process is thankfully well detailed. Aspirants, having completed their implantations and other such training, are given a suit of Carapace armour and assigned to a scout squad. Each Scout Squad is lead by a full Brother-Marine, who has been entrusted with passing the knowledge of centuries of warfare to the new initiates. In this way the chapters veterans pass their knowledge to the next generation of Marines. In order to try and keep them “safe” (and I use the term loosely) a Scout Squads job is that of Infiltration, reconnaissance and surgically striking lightly armoured targets, or providing intelligence for the remainder of the strike force , as well as carrying beacons so that their fellow brothers might come down to the heart of the enemy Safely (Teleport Homers and Locator Beacons). It is hoped that in this way each scout has the time to allow their transformation to stabilise and mellow out before being promoted to the 9th Company for Heavy Weapons Training.

Space Wolves again take the utter opposite approach. Upon the implantation of the Black Carapace, they stick the new Blood Claws in Power Armour, point them at some enemies and shout “fetch”. Ok that's perhaps a little harsh but the Space Wolves don't mess about, pushing the new Marines into brutal CQC action, all the while attempting to control their heightened senses and emotions caused by the Implantations, as well as fighting the effects of the Canis Helix (it is known for some Space Wolves to spontaneously mutate in to Wulfen under periods of extreme duress).

And while sometimes they may have a veteran Warrior to lead them (Generally a member of the Wolf Guard or sometimes a Grey Hunter or Long Fang who has lost their pack), most of the time they are left to do their own thing, with their knowledge picked up via the hypnotherepy or on the fly in battle.

In Conclusion:
Ultramarines: Scouts given a well rounded training backed up by centuries of experience from those veterans assigned to train the recruits. Formal instruction in the ways of war and their weaponry and ensuring they are solid well rounded warriors once they are deemed ready for Power Armour.

Space Wolves: Shoved into power armour from the get go and, for the most part, told "Bullets come of of here, enemy over there. Go." before the transformations and physical mutations have even slowed down, let alone stopped.

Point #6: Combat Attrition
Ultramarines would, simply by logic, have fewer aspirant deaths than Space Wolves, simply due to their two very different roles. Scouts are off skulking around, picking off targets from long range if engaging anything at all. Not to mention they have the experience of a veteran sergeant behind them telling them that doing ABC leads to gruesome XYZ death.

Blood Claws on the other hand just blindly charge into whatever the enemy of the week is. If they die or are injured, well sucks to be you I got more enemies to kill! If they live, they go off and kill more stuff. Again, a little overgeneralised, but the point I am making is that Blood Claws are much more likely to be in life threatening situations than scouts, and they can only roll 3+ so many times...

Add to that the Space Wolves preference for CQC alltogether (even when as Grey Hunters they excel in short range fire fights before assaulting into CQC) and you can understand that Space Wolves must take more losses than the Ultras.

In Conclusion:
Ultramarines: Low level of attrition, in part due to more formal training and in part due to the nature of a Scouts role, that of infiltration and reconnaissance.

Space Wolves: High levels of attrition, due to the nature of the engagements Blood Claws are used for, brutal CQC and breaching enemy bunkers et al.

Point #7: Unit Assignment
Scout Squads are replenished through new recruits, amalgamated due to combat losses or just outright replaced whenever the need arises. This way a scout squad is rarely under under full strength at any time and can easily gather replacements if necessary. It also allows for members to have training with a multitude of sergeants who may have different strengths and weaknesses (such as being assigned to Tellions squad for sniper training perhaps).

When they become full Battle Brothers the situation is the same, with losses being replaced by marines filtering up from lower Companies. While this allows for a full strength unit at almost all times, it does mean they do not form the bonds of loyalty to each other the Space Wolves do.

Some might be assigned to vehicle crew duty for a period, others might become pilots. Some might even become privy to the secrets of Mars or those with latent powers might join the Librarians. All in all, it is rather fragmented, with each marine being assigned to whatever duty is needed of him.

Blood Claw Packs (or in fact any packs) are formed together at inception and stay together for life. Even their transport Vehicles such as Rhinos or Razorbacks are crewed by members of the same pack (with other Vehicles like Predators and such being manned by Packs who have been reduced to low numbers). The only ways out of a pack are death or assignment to a very few number of select/specialist units. These consist of the Scouts and the Wolf Guard.

The scouts are Space Wolves who do not adapt to the pack mentality, loners etc., as it gives them a greater amount of freedom and space, and puts their abilities to better use (there are reports of some Scouts working for years behind enemy lines isolated from the rest of the Chapter)
The Wolf Guard, the chosen few of the Wolf Lord, who act as his Bodyguard in Battle or lead the Younger Wolves on occasion for the majority of Wolves.

The other way is into one of the Priesthoods. Wolf Priests are selected from the Oldest and Wisest of Long Fangs, many of whom are the sole survivor of their pack. The rune Priests are the Space Wolves historians and saga tellers. They are those who have latent psychic powers, similar to librarians of other chapters. The final one is the Iron Priest, taking the role of the Techmarine in Vanilla Chapters, they are responsible for the maintenance of the Space Wolves vehicles and such.

In each case however, those chosen knows he will never return to his Pack, and his brothers both celebrate and mourn for the loss of their brother. Many Space Wolves are known to refuse to join their Masters wolf Guard, for they feel it would be betraying their pack if they did.

In Conclusion:
Ultramarines: Marines move through companies as dictated by training or by conflict necessity, assigned to squads as needed, and given a general training as they move though the reserve companies (e.g. Heavy Weapons training while in the 9th, CQC training in the 8th and Bike training when in the 6th). While this gives a well rounded training, they do not bond together as well.

Space Wolves: Packs are formed and stay together for life, with combat losses never replaced, though multiple smaller packs may be assigned to work together on a temporary basis. Training moves from Berserk CQC to Calculated Short Range Fire fights and CQC to Heavy Weaponry as a Pack ages together, with those promoted to the Wolf Guard or Scouts (for acts of valour and natural skill respectively) being both congratulated and mourned for. By working together for life each Wolf knows each other as if they were them, leading to much better cohesion and reactions, and a bond that ensures each is indebted to each other a thousand times over.



All of these points add up to my main premise, that a Great Company is actually Smaller than a Codex Company. After all, with the lower requirement rate, higher combat attrition, in addition to their longevity and just being more elite in general, seem to suggest that the Space Wolves can be just as effective as a codex company with fewer marines.
I thereby deduce, with these points being my main "evidence" so to speak, that a Great Company is indeed smaller than a Codex company, perhaps in the scale of 60-80 Marines, with the company of the Great Wolf (Not Logans Personal Company, but a separate company all together) consisting of the Space Wolves Scouts, Priests and Dreadnoughts. Of course that is not to say that a Company couldn't be larger. They might have not taken any permanent combat losses in decades, and have continued to bring in new packs. However, this seems unlikely given the way that Blood Claws are utilised, along with the harsher than normal transformation rituals, Lower recruitment pool, and unstable geneseed, I cannot see this being a common occurrence.

Of course this is all subject to the mystical power known as "The Rule of Cool" which in no uncertain terms allows you to ignore everything I just said and say that the Space Wolves are 12,000 strong and never get scratched.

tldr:
Great Companies Smaller than Codex ones, but Rule of Cool overrides it.

Your most certainly humble servant,
Gwar!

Awww come on. No ones got anything to say?

Criticisms? Adoration? Nothing? :(

It makes too much sense, it makes my head hurt
By sheer defiance of the Ultrasmurfs I have to agree, this is all fine and logically reasoned... but what is in 40k!


"For Russ! For the Wolftime!"

I'll be honest, I didn't read it all.....Why people insist on writing war and piece on something that is PURELY fantasy, is a little worrying.

Anyhow, I think its almost, no, completely IMPOSSIBLE to apply logic to something that is fantasy based. My god, if you only read the actual fluff surrounding WH40K, even the sanctioned writers can't get it right!

Example, Ben Counter in The Hammer of Daemons, at the start of the book, Alaric is "nearly" twice the hieght of a man in power armour, yet towards the middle of the book, he now stands a head taller than a human male!! Ok, at this point he doesn't have his armour on, but come on, does power armour come with a set of MONSTER high heels?

On Topic: Yes, I belive each Great Company is the size of a standard Codex Chapter. I belive that was actually written somewhere, but judging by how quickly WH40K "facts" get changed, who knows where I read that.

Basis for my thoughts, cause thats the way GW wants it to be, maybe Fenris has a high volume of quality aspirants?!? Who knows....and in the end, does it even matter, who in the hell can afford to field a complete Wolf Chapter, whether it be a 1000 men or 12000?

Well I had a full great Company once (back when I thought they were hueg) but it all got burnt to a cinder.
Insurance covered it but I lost the heart, so I've only just started rebuilding them

I've always figured that a Great Company is a little larger than a Codex company, but not significantly. Going by the old '100 marine company', I would have guessed a SW great company is typically around 150 marines. While SWs probably take higher casualty rates, their methods of recruitment and training also results in a faster replenishment rate. And while Blood Claws are 'new' marines, they're already incredibliy tough - having grown up on an unforgiving world and having probably fought in more battles before becoming an aspirant than an Ultramarine fights in while a scout.

So, if a Codex Company is really about 150 marines, I'd say a Great Company is probably around 200 SWs, on average. But, the possibility of losses and recruiting letting that number swing from about 50 to 400 SWs at any time.

Most SWs die in battle as a Bloodclaw.

I wrote this a year or so ago and posted it on B&C. Here's my take on how Russ argued with Guilliman about breaking up the Legion.

Guiliman: “Russ, we need to talk about breaking up your Legion.”
Russ: “What!?! There’s no way I’m doing that. We’re all proud Fenrisians.”
G: “Well, I want each chapter to be about 1,000 men strong. Look at me, I have like 30 or 40 chapters coming from my Legion. Now, I know that you have 13 great companies….”
“12.”
“I thought it was 13.”
“Well, it was, but the 13th chased that heretic Magnus from prospero and into the warp.”
“Hmm. Well, I guess those shouldn’t count then. So, how many marines are in your Legion?”
“I don’t know.”
“What do you mean you don’t know?”
“Hey, we use runes and oral histories. We’re a society that has few literate people. You’re giving me a hard time about numbers? I’m lucky to have a couple guys in each pack that can count past 10 without taking off their boots.”
“Well, okay, I guess. How many do you think you have? I’ve written down in this tome that a chapter should be split into 10 companies and each company should have about 100 men. That should be 60 tactical marines, 20 assault marines, and 20 devastators.”
“Eh, I’d guess we’re about 100 a company.”
“That sounds small. By my estimates, you should have roughly 100 grey hunters, 60 blood claws, 20 long fangs, another 20 grey hunters as vehicle drivers, and 20 wolf guard.”
“You can’t count the blood claws. They’re whelps, they’re barely marines. You can’t count them. There, see, about 100.”
“No, it’s more like 200.”
“Do your 100 men in a chapter include the commander or vehicle drivers?”
“Well, no, So 101, 111 – well, 112 including the command vehicle. And the command squad is another 9. Well, okay, it’s more like 121.”
“So, take out my drivers and the wolf guard – they’re just like your command squad.”
“The Blood Claws are novices like a chapter’s scouts, and the scouts count towards the 1,000 man limit. And there’s a lot more of your drivers and command squad…..”
“Take ‘em out, you didn’t count them. Take them and the blood claws out, they don’t count either. See, not it’s just 120 guys. That’s about 100.”
“No, no, the companies are still too large. And there’s too many of them, there’s 12.”
“No, they’re not too big or too many. They’re fine. I can’t split up the packs, the boys won’t tolerate it. Then what do I do? Kill one of them for refusing to leave his pack?”
“Well, no, I guess not. But, I….I….oh, to hell with it, I give up. Fine, leave it alone.”

And that is the story of how our primarch LeMan Russ outwitted Roboute Guilliman and kept most of his chapter intact.

But then again, a Limp Noodle could have outwitted Guilliman

Considering Guilliman couldn't even tell if he killed a traitor Primarch, you're probably right.

I'm curious to see how ol' Roboute is portrayed in the HH novels. I know that most people have portrayed him as a snotty know-it-all. On the other hand, he's a pretty sharp 'manager' who oversaw a huge organization.

Gwar, i agree with you on 99% of your post here, there is one point that i think is interpreted incorrectly though

"In Conclusion:
Ultramarines: Select via a rigorous screening from people who volunteer.

Space Wolves: Select whoever had enough balls to have otherwise fatal wounds in barbarian battle. "

Fenris is harsh, you described it very well, and you also mentioned that Every clan undergoes a fight for survival, frequently requiring war with other clans. by this logic, Every Fenrisian male has enough balls to die in battle.

also you mention

"Ultramarines: Recruit from a cluster of well populated, advanced worlds with a potential recruitment Pool of hundreds of billions.

Space Wolves: Recruit from a Single world with a population conceivability in the tens of millions, who are at a Viking Era technology level. "

so by Spase Mureen logic the ultrasmurfs would only recruit those who are are the most physically fit, intelligent, and capable. that way they do not waste any effort on them.

where as space puppies would be able to recruit every god forsaken soul who was unlucky enough to have been born on Fenris (as the simple act of living there makes you a badass).

so then we have 2 main variables,
X= the number of eligible candidates in the Ultramarine sector
Y= the number of eligible candidates on Fenris

and our equation is based on the chapters selectiveness
Ultramarines, even the name is condesending
Space Wolves, they actually fight with dogs. literally.


X would be based on a small percent of consenting male youth out of a population of billions who actually WANT to spend centuries doing nothing but killing and trying to not be killed- where as they can serve the Emporer just as well in the PDF and get the benefits of less risk and being home. There is no retirement for space marines.

Y is based on the entire male population of Fenris, as nearly every one of them will see combat. They do not apply to join the Space Wolves, they are selected. They do not turn down an offer to join the Gods.




I theorize that space wolves recruit a LOT more than the ultramarines. but as you mention, space wolves suffer from much higher attrition and more difficult (read: Fatal) indoctrination practices. Because of this, at any given time Space Wolves could have Great Companies that are as large or larger than a full chapter of codex astartes marines.

On top of this, Space Wolves do not count "lost companies" who have left the fang on a mission, and upon being recalled by the Great wolf they refused, as they believe their mission is incomplete (Each Great Company answers to its Wolf Lord, the Wolf Lord is not required to follow the Great Wolf) These lost companies are not counted among the ranks of space wolves, but they are not considered heretics, as they are still in the service of the Emporer and mankind. The 13th Company is the most famous of these, however more do exist.

I counter your assertion that the Space Wolves recruit more with the fact that the Ultramarines have a potential pool that is bigger than the Space Wolves by a factor of (to use the scientific term) "a metric f---ton"

Your variable X (willing recruits to the Ultramarines) even if it is a % value several times smaller, still encompass more than the entire population of Fenris. Most of the worlds in Ultramar are Hive worlds, and it must have Hundreds of Billions, if not close to trillions of people living there. If even a fraction of a percentage of them are suitable, and a fraction of them are willing, you still come up with a number higher than the whole population of Fenris.

so in reality it boils down to that number, the population of the Ultramar hive worlds vs the population of Fenris.

but also consider, the worlds of Ultramar are the selection grounds for multiple chapters.

and also consider there is no PDF for Fenris, just the space wolves, servitors, and machines guarding the planet.

so lets say 100,000,000,000 vs 10,000,000

now lets say there are 5 chapters based in Ultramar (in reality, one cannot quantify that number because of "custom" vanilla chapters)

20,000,000,000 vs 10,000,000

there are no female space marines
10,000,000,000 vs 5,000,000

consider the willingness to serve in the armed forces in present day united states when given the freedom of choice 1,400,000 active duty vs 300,000,000 total population, or about 0.47%
that leaves a pool of 470,000,000 (Ultramar) vs 5,000,000 (Fenris)

of these 470,000,000 how many will choose to be part of the PDF? where they get military service benefits, get to stay at home, and can retire later in life. i would guess a large portion. lets say 3/4

117,500,000 vs 5,000,000

then we compensate for age, the demographic will vary greatly, but the median age for people on Ultramar is Definately much higher than on Fenris
so that would leave maybe 10,000,000 or so on Ultramar, and maybe 1,000,000 or so on Fenris

these 10 million then go through the Ultramarine selection process, which is limited by their adherence to the Codex Astartes. If they need 20 marines for a company they pick 20 out of 100,000,000. The Space Wolves pick recruits as they are available as opposed to when they need or are allowed to pick them. Out of 1 million, every one of them is a badass. 10,000 could be superbadasses, so the space wolves would recruit 10,000 superbadasses who would go through harsh (Read: Fatal) training, and 1,000 would become Blood Claws. split those 1000 among the 12 Great companies, 83 or so blood claws.
20 vs 83

this is just how i see it, Fenris is a better badass breeding ground, and the Space Wolves are less selective, but more harsh.
Space Wolf units have flaws but are more ferocious (WS3 BS3, Berserk Charge)

There is no fluff to suggest anyone BUT the Ultramarines themselves recruit from Ultramar, so that's a bit of a flawed argument off the bat. And don't forget that like Cadia military training starts from practically birth.

So, other than the Hive Gangers (who are prime candidates in their own right) can you really imagine anyone NOT wanting to volunteer for possible selection, with the only result of being unacceptable is to go back into your planets PDF, considering the veneration the plebs in Ultramar have for T3h SPESS MARHINEZ?

hive gangers would be uneligle by age alone

and these are humans we are talking about, the average person would not want to go and die for the Emporer when they can work a normal job, and fill normal duties in society.

Demogerg wrote:hive gangers would be uneligle by age alone

Incorrect. Who says you cannot be a hive gang member at 11 or 12? I would be surprised if a Hive Ganger lived past 20.

Demogerg wrote:and these are humans we are talking about, the average person would not want to go and die for the Emporer when they can work a normal job, and fill normal duties in society.

Except were it not for the fact that in the Ultramar system they hold a great amount of pride for the Ultramarines, and would gladdy go and be tested to see if they could be inducted at the very least. For the Affluent families, it would be because of social expectation, whereas for the less affluant familes (hey being in poverty in Ultramar would sure beat anywhere else, but you're still poor) it would be a way to get rid of unwanted children

@ Gwar

Hmm, somehow, from the fluff, I don't get the impressin that Ultramar and its various settlements, have the old "Hive gang" issue. In fact, GW specifically paints Ultramar et al, as being an idealised type of human society. So I'd say the inclusion of "Hive Gangers" for induction into the Ultramarines is a BIG no no!

Theres also the problem with genetic compatibilty that you guys seem to be forgetting. Even if the realms of Ultramar have a gazillion possible candidates waiting at the doors of the Ultramarine temple, it could well be that only a minute fraction are compatible with Roberts gene-seed. It could be that, good old Leman Russ has a much more human compatible gene-type so that far more Fenrisians are able to not only be inducted, but also pass the tests to become full-fledged Blood Claws

Delephont wrote:Hmm, somehow, from the fluff, I don't get the impressin that Ultramar and its various settlements, have the old "Hive gang" issue. In fact, GW specifically paints Ultramar et al, as being an idealised type of human society. So I'd say the inclusion of "Hive Gangers" for induction into the Ultramarines is a BIG no no!

The fluff indicates that they still have hives, but their worlds are not polluted wastelands like Necromunda. Also this "idealised type of human society" is just that, idealised. It is written from a pro-Ultramarines standpoint, so of course it will paint it out to be super. Even today in big cities of a few million people, you have differing levels of class and affluence, ranging from the super rich to those in poverty.

And in anycase, the meaning of "nice living" differs in the 41st millennium, (See: Armageddon, Necromunda etc for how the typical pleb lives)

Delephont wrote:Theres also the problem with genetic compatibilty that you guys seem to be forgetting. Even if the realms of Ultramar have a gazillion possible candidates waiting at the doors of the Ultramarine temple, it could well be that only a minute fraction are compatible with Roberts gene-seed. It could be that, good old Leman Russ has a much more human compatible gene-type so that far more Fenrisians are able to not only be inducted, but also pass the tests to become full-fledged Blood Claws

Apart from the fact that the Ultramarines Geneseed is considered the second purist and most robust geneseed there is. If the Ultramarines Genestock were that fiddly to use, why would 90% of marine chapters be based off it? If that is the case, then every single marine chapter based off Ultramarine geneseed would also need a huge Empire to recruit from just to stay at combat strength, which we know does not happen (it is actually explicitly forbidden, but the Ultras get away with it because of the "1st founding bitch!" Card.)

@ Gwar

Well, what can I say to counter your point. Oh I know....right, the last time I was in Ultramar, conducting a "pleasure" survey, 90% of the citizens I met said they were happy with their lives and the other 10% said they'd be happier only if Rob would come back to life and bless them!

No one had any issues with Hive gangers, in fact I got a really weird look when I mentioned the phrase, and I had to explain that over on Necromunda they had a gang problem, etc etc!

So there you have it. Straight from the horses mouth. Next week, I'm heading out to Fenris to chase down some Fenrisian wolves, drink beer and then I'm off to the Lair to talk to the head honcho about the consistancy of his Geneseed.

I will report back on my return.

all of the numbers i presented in my post are just an example. in the end Ultramarines will recruit just enough marines to fill their ranks up to Codex Astartes standards, where as Space Wolves do not follow that codex, and can recruit willy-nilly.



also, you are going on the assumption that everyone WANTS to be a space marine.

do you WANT to join the army in the country you live? i know i dont.

Delephont wrote:@ Gwar

Well, what can I say to counter your point. Oh I know....right, the last time I was in Ultramar, conducting a "pleasure" survey, 90% of the citizens I met said they were happy with their lives and the other 10% said they'd be happier only if Rob would come back to life and bless them!

No one had any issues with Hive gangers, in fact I got a really weird look when I mentioned the phrase, and I had to explain that over on Necromunda they had a gang problem, etc etc!

So there you have it. Straight from the horses mouth. Next week, I'm heading out to Fenris to chase down some Fenrisian wolves, drink beer and then I'm off to the Lair to talk to the head honcho about the consistancy of his Geneseed.

I will report back on my return.

Gee, that's a convincing argument. There is no need to get all upset over it. Everything you read needs to be taken with a grain of Salt. Even GW admit that all fluff is written from a bias view. I am just using logic and examples of real life situations where lots of people congregate to suggest that Ultramar does have Gangs in their Hives. However, if you want to just ignore my Logical Argument and try and draw away from the fact I have neatly and succinctly shot down your argument, be my guest.

After all, what fluff do you have that says "Ultramarians all gak rainbows and fart skittles and there is never any gang violence ever"?
Nor do I have any fluff that suggests they don't, but since in the absence of detailed fluff, one (I assume) falls back to Logic, one can deduce that "Mmm, Several billion people all in hives? Seems like the underclasses would have a gang culture, same way as in real life cities with even a few million have such gangs."

Demogerg wrote:all of the numbers i presented in my post are just an example. in the end Ultramarines will recruit just enough marines to fill their ranks up to Codex Astartes standards, where as Space Wolves do not follow that codex, and can recruit willy-nilly.

All Chapters are always recruiting at all times. In the 41st Millenium they are always at war, and always taking combat losses. Don't forget as well that according tot he Codex, the Scout Company has no fixed upper limit so the Ultramarines could just keep recuiting as much as they need, and trickling up the most experienced scouts to full Brother whenever they are needed. And considering the Ultras are one of the Foremost chapters in fighting Tyranids wherever they may be, I think they are taking quite a few losses.

Demogerg wrote:also, you are going on the assumption that everyone WANTS to be a space marine.

do you WANT to join the army in the country you live? i know i dont.

As I said, the feeling I get from the Fluff is that becoming an Ultramarine is something people aspire too. For affluent families its because it gives the family social status and honour, and for lower downs it might be a way to just escape the crushing poverty (since I doubt many 12 Year old gangers will be signing up to the PDF any time soon). And lets not forget the effect of something we don't have here, and that is the Imperial Cult. The Imperial Cult teaches that every citizen must do the Emperors will. While I am sure there are many who couldnt give a rats arse, I am sure many would volunteer just on that alone.

And As I pointed out, In the world of the 41st millennium, a very high proportion of people are militarised, so have a much higher ratio of military personal to civilians that we would do today. That would conceivably rub off onto the kids and mean that a higher proportion view the military as something to aspire to.

I guess at this point we will just need to agree to disagree.

maybe some fluff in the new dex will clarify the chapters true size.

Gwar! wrote: Gee, that's a convincing argument. There is no need to get all upset over it. Everything you read needs to be taken with a grain of Salt. Even GW admit that all fluff is written from a bias view. I am just using logic and examples of real life situations where lots of people congregate to suggest that Ultramar does have Gangs in their Hives. However, if you want to just ignore my Logical Argument and try and draw away from the fact I have neatly and succinctly shot down your argument, be my guest.

Well, I'm not upset. The only flaw with your "argument" is its base.

Look, you're talking about a fantasy land, and you're applying all types of "real world" theory and "logic" and sitting back smiling feeling happy with yourself. Ok, no problem, its a free world. So you decide to post your thoughts, and invite comments.....people agree to comment, and put forward equally "logical" statements and counterstatements based in a fantasy setting, yet you try to shoot them down, claiming your "logic" of the fantasy is more logical then theirs.....do you see the stupidity in the whole thing?

Its like school children arguing over the actual color of the "yellow brick road" based on pollutants in the air, the make up of the bricks and the number and colour of the shoes people used to walk on it......

The reason I fell to "the absurd" was to highlight that in a fantasy setting anything goes....maybe Fenris is the size of the whole of Ultramar and its subsector planets....can you claim thats incorrect? based on what? Maybe the planet of Fenris has more population that whole of the Ultramarines empire! Is this wrong to assume? Maybe Fenris is a collection of planets, rather than just one? Is there a statement somewhere that denys that? and if there isn't how can you use real world "logic" to say that I'm wrong and you're right?

In the end, like I said before, what does it matter what size the Space Wolf legion actually is? The fluff sets out a few points that allow us, the gamer to percieve the chapter.

1. The Space Wolves do not follow the tenets of the Codex Astartes.
2. Rather than having one chapter of 1000 marines, there are instead 12 Great Companies.
3. Each Great Company is an army in itself, and is completey independant of the Space Wolves "Chapter" and have their own place in the Space Wolves "temple". (Here its hinted that a Great Company could rival the size of a Codex Chapter)

And I believe thats all that GW gives us, lets face it, what more do you need?

And Gwar does it again! The arguments are great. But I've read your article and I do think you have many valid points, especially the wolves being the most similar to 'pre-heresy' chapters.

My question is this: Does anyone know all of the necromunda fluff to see if there are any more direct parallels to what's been said? Everyone has made interesting points. In the end the tyranids will eat them all but it's nice to think about in the meantime.

It took me a while to read your post (concerning you being upset there were no replies). I spend much time reading up on stuff from various sources, even dug out stuff I had packed away to read. I didn't read everybodies reply, I like everything you've written, I just don't know how it really relates to your initial topic. Everything is predicated on initial selection of potential marines. Even given the difficulties in becoming a Space Wolf instead of an Ultramarine, if the Space Wolfs begin with more aspirants, they can afford to have more die off.

Your arguement has a few fatal flaws. But im going to focus on one.

you point out that the ultramarines have billions of people to feed into their Chapter, whilst the space wolves only have one planet with maybe ten million on it for them to recruit from.

But when looking at their life styles you fail to look at the possibility that the Fenris's lifestyle may breed more space marine quality humans. Also it sounds like the space wolves are not picky, picking basically any guy who gets wounded but doesnt die in combat, whilst the ultramarines have rigourous screenings that maybe one in a 100 million may pass.

The idea that the space wolves pick any guy who might be able to become a space marine means that they would have huge amounts of initiates so there high attrition rate would be ofset by this.

Likewise whilst the Ultramarines may have a larger population to recruit from, their dogmatic adherence to the codex astrates may well mean only 1-2 people on an entire planet may pass the screening per year.

in conclusion, the space wolves are alot less finicky about recruitment, meaning that their high attrition rate during the initiate stage would be compensated for. Whilst the Ultramarines have the option to be more selective in recruitment.

though to be fair im not sure of the great companies size either, im just playing devils advocate to highlight problems in your theory so you may improve it.

Nice read mate.

Very interesting point you make here. I would have a tendency to agree with space wolves being less finicky about recruitment. I would also think that they would be more apt to accept their own people as it seems like Fenris would breed tough, capable people anyways... Unlike the ultramarines, that would have to sort the wheat from the chaf of many worlds.

^^^ my points exactly

Well, you mention that perhaps only 1-2 per planet pass the testing, I have to disagree with that. Ultramarine combat Losses are far higher than that, and the codex also dictates that there is no limit on the scout company, so that a chapter can always be reciting. If they recruited only 1-2 per planet per year, that's like a squad an a half of scouts per year, and I am sure they need a bit more than that to just break even (unless a year on Macragge is like 6 Weeks, Possible but Unlikely)

While I coincide that perhaps the space wolves do take more aspirants per year and are a lot less picky, a much higher proportion are weeded out through all the different trials they have to partake in.
Furthermore these recruitments are not stable and constant like the Ultramarines, who recruit at any time during the year if a suitable aspirate appears, Space Wolves recruit once a year, and only pick those who were so manly they suffered moral wounds, then kept on fighting. I am sure they don't get to bring everyone they wanted back.

Of course, one implication of my argument is that a Great Company could be very varied in size depending on when you look at it. One Great Company might not have taken any significant losses in many years, and number anywhere up to 200 Marines, while another might be a new Great Company gifted to a Worth Space Wolf to replace one tragically destroyed. It is worth noting that the SW Legion has been wiped out to a Single Great Company at least twice in 10,000 years (yeah taken from Black Library so perhaps a Bucket of salt is needed on this one) and considering it took the Ultras over a Century with all those lovely planets to replace 2 or 3 companies after Macragge (iirc), imagine the time it would take to replace 11 "Chapter Sized" Great Companies.

Seems like we're all taking about numbers that aren't really out there. Do we know for sure that the wolves only recruit once a year? That caught my attention...

We are certain. Space Wolves only recruit from the most fierce warriors who "die" in battle.

The only time Fenrisans have any reason to fight is after the Summer of Fire when they must claim new land or sie at sea.

There are occasional clan wars, and the Space Wolves will look over them, but they are few and far between from my understanding.

I see. Thanks for the background!