Reading lexicanum the other day about the legions of the emperor.
It mentioned two unknown primarchs and their legions. Does anyone know any more fluff concerning these?

No, there isn't. That's kind of the whole point of them, that they're unknown.

I've not really read anything about it, but it would certainly be interesting if one of them turned out to be the proginator of the Orks... I can't remember off the top of my head how widespread the Orks were during the Great Crusade, or if they had been encountered prior to the creation of the Primarchs.

Though perhaps when GW finishes bring everything up to date they will introduce them into the fluff.

Mods: In the name of all that's holy, dispatch this abomination of a thread to the deepest pits of the background forum.

When I mean fluff, I mean does anyone know if there dead or something like that?

Ive seen about twenty of these threads since starting dakka, there is some fluff on them, in the Horus Heresy book "Mechanicum" Rogal Dorn is talking to a high imperial guy, about the defence of terra from the traitors, and the imperial guy says, something like "We have thirteen legions, the traitors have five" and Dorn said "If only they were fifth teen" and imperial high guy said " Do not think about them, they are lost to us forever".

Wow.What about the legions they would have owned?

No idea, thats all i got, i think there something else from an iron warriors book, but i dont konw.

You know what rubiksnoob screw you!

Whoa, It's just a picture. Just take a deep breath and calm down. No need to get worked up here.

i thought the idea of the two unknown legions, was so that you could make your own legions

Yeah I think thats what there there for. I just wanted to see what other people thought.

SilverMK2 wrote:I've not really read anything about it, but it would certainly be interesting if one of them turned out to be the proginator of the Orks... I can't remember off the top of my head how widespread the Orks were during the Great Crusade, or if they had been encountered prior to the creation of the Primarchs.

The Orks were engineered by the Old Ones as a warrior caste. So they're in the same ballpark age-wise as the Eldar. Certainly well before the Great Crusade.

Dan Abnett's short story the Lightning Tower further hints at the two missing Primarchs as being killed by the Emperor most likely: "The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?"

Wow.

Whatever happened to them, they obviously took their legions with them and it happened sometime during the Great Crusade. I assume it wasn't chaos that took them as Horus would have tried contacting them.

Thanks for the quote BrookM.

If the idea originally was to let people come up with their own legions and spin off chapters, it seems to have changed to these legions doing something really bad and being either destroyed or banished. I don't think any chapter with a link to these legions would now be accepted. Who knows though right? Maybe some of them survived and were used to set up the Death Watch or Grey Knights along with the survivors of the treacher legions.




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rubiksnoob wrote:Whoa, It's just a picture. Just take a deep breath and calm down. No need to get worked up here.

Nah mate, it's pretty rude posting a huge picture that basically says the thread sucks and is a waste of time. If you don't like the thread go elsewhere.

No, the Grey Knights and Deathwatch were founded by members of the Traitor Legions who remained loyal to the Emperor and escaped the Traitors.

BrookM wrote:Dan Abnett's short story the Lightning Tower further hints at the two missing Primarchs as being killed by the Emperor most likely: "The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?"

Or it could refer to these Primarchs falling to Chaos.

You know, if we wanna speculate.

I've heard one is meant to have fallen to chaos, the other was loyal, but it's probably just rumours.

We don't even know if the primarchs were found after being scattered, they could still be out there! Plus we don't know if there was enough genetic material from the primarchs to create their legions in the first place, but there probably was.

Never heard that GK were made from the traitor legions, is that cannon? I knew that they were meant to have been formed before Guilimans big book of fun split the legions though. I also heard that the high lords didn't destroy the genetic banks from the traitor legions

GK are the second founding chaper of 666.

The grey knights were founded by (most likely) a bunch of traitor legion members that did not follow their primarchs with horus, and instead stayed loyal to the emperor. Most were death guard but there were at least some world eaters and a thousand son, iirc.

The two unknown legions are mentioned in the book Mechanicum. Dorn was wishing for their aid against Horus, but the was told that they were "lost to the Emperor".

Cheese Elemental wrote:No, the Grey Knights and Deathwatch were founded by members of the Traitor Legions who remained loyal to the Emperor and escaped the Traitors.

I said that, treacher is another word for traitor. I just wondered if survivors from the other two legions may have been included as well.


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Grim.Badger wrote:I've heard one is meant to have fallen to chaos, the other was loyal, but it's probably just rumours.

We don't even know if the primarchs were found after being scattered, they could still be out there! Plus we don't know if there was enough genetic material from the primarchs to create their legions in the first place, but there probably was.

Definitely, when the crusade began the Emperor had 20 legions recruited from the people of earth. As the primarchs were found, the legion that bore their gene-seed was given to them. Sometime during the 200 odd years of the crusade two legions were banished or just left. Whatever the cause, it was bad enough for them to be erased from history records. As the legions themselves were lost to the Imperium, it would suggest that their primarchs had been found and did something naughty, otherwise the legions would still have existed at the time of the heresy and Dorn would have had his 15 legions mentioned above.

Never heard that GK were made from the traitor legions, is that cannon? I knew that they were meant to have been formed before Guilimans big book of fun split the legions though. I also heard that the high lords didn't destroy the genetic banks from the traitor legions

I think it's a theory, The Grey Knights don't know (or aren't willing to say) who their primarch is. Maybe they were started by loyalists from the treacher legions and maybe the Emperor created them from scratch.

cadbren wrote:
I think it's a theory, The Grey Knights don't know (or aren't willing to say) who their primarch is. Maybe they were started by loyalists from the treacher legions and maybe the Emperor created them from scratch.

One theory is that their primarch is Mortarion, and they were formed by Nathaniel Garro.

I think one of the missing Primarchs is Sigmar...the other is Nagash.

Let's not forget that the Adeptus Mechanicus has an army of genetically superior (and augmented) warriors guarding Mars. Payment for services rendered anyone.

Also I remember a very early quote that was something like "The Emperor carried with Him a great sadness for his lost sons." and that was Pre Heresy.

RxGhost wrote:I think one of the missing Primarchs is Sigmar...the other is Nagash.

Who's Nagash?

I heard that Alpharius of the alpha legion had a twin named Omegon. Could this be an unknown primarch that was hiding in plain view?

deadratman wrote:I heard that Alpharius of the alpha legion had a twin named Omegon. Could this be an unknown primarch that was hiding in plain view?

No, Alpharius and Omegon are the same Primarch, although they are different people.

That is confusing. How can they be the same primarch but different people?

deadratman wrote:That is confusing. How can they be the same primarch but different people?

there is nowhere that it says a primarch has to be one person. Also, think of them as a Hydra- cut off the head and two grow in it's place.

Oh that is way their symbol is a hydra.Yes but it is saying that there are two actual people. That means that there would be 21 primarchs.

deadratman wrote:Oh that is way their symbol is a hydra.Yes but it is saying that there are two actual people. That means that there would be 21 primarchs.

No. 21 People. 20 Primarchs.

WTF! Can someone strighten this out? I am confused!!!!

Fo'real. Math is hard.

It is not that. It is just confusing cause no one ever mentioned him. There are 21 people but 20 primarchs.
Never got the hang of time travel and twins.

deadratman wrote:It is not that. It is just confusing cause no one ever mentioned him. There are 21 people but 20 primarchs.
Never got the hang of time travel and twins.

Read "Legion"

I can understand why it might be confusiong it's a relatively new addition to canon fluff.

Hell yeah. What is "Legion" about?

It's about Alpha legion and it's turning to Chaos, or more accurately, against Chaos.

What do you mean! I know about the Cabal but nothing else. GOD THIS IS CONFUSING!!!!!!!!!

deadratman wrote:What do you mean! I know about the abal but nothing else. GOD THIS IS CONFUSING!!!!!!!!!

It shall be unconfusing if you read the Book.

Here's a pic.

That is the cover right?

The cover is the right hand side of the pic.

Oh.COOL!

Exarch_Nektel wrote:

deadratman wrote:I heard that Alpharius of the alpha legion had a twin named Omegon. Could this be an unknown primarch that was hiding in plain view?

No, Alpharius and Omegon are the same Primarch, although they are different people.

One Soul Two Bodies.

Can someone explain the relationship of the twins.

They are twins. Both born from the same test tube. You'll have to ask the Emperor for that details.

Exarch_Nektel wrote:They are twins. Both born from the same test tube. You'll have to ask the Emperor for that details.

Major lawls.

Is it possible that as they drifting in space and all that 2 primarchs died?

So the whole Alpharius thing is totally reasonable.
"Hi I'm a guy who's really two guys. Oh, here's the other me. He says hi too. Wait, I mean I say hi too. No, wait...er...you know what I/we mean. By the way, don't look now but I/we are also behind you.

In several places, it is stated that all 20 primarchs were found and fought in the Great Crusade. All 20 Legions fought in the Crusade. Also, the Legions existed before their Primarch was found (and at least the Death Guard had a different name - the Dusk Raiders and different colors). What happened to the two missing primarchs is unknown. I'd guess it'll be revealed in the Heresy series, but that's just a guess.

AFAIK, it's not clear how long the Great Crusade lasted. Several hundred years, but I think it's estimated at anywhere from 200 to 500 years.

There's a good discussion on the Black Library forums, here: http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=177" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=177
The OP has some interesting theories.


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PS: I think at the time of Rogue Trader, Sigmar was intended to be one of the lost Primarchs based on the fluff associated with him at the time (a twin-tailed comet fortold his coming, he was bigger and stronger and nearly impossible to kill, etc.). At the time, the Warhammer World was part of the 40k universe, but blocked off by warp storms. I would guess the other missing primarch was a Chaos warlord, but I didn't follow the WFB fluff much (I did play the RPG, but it really just covered the Empire), so I don't know if there was a chaos-guy that fit a Primarch's description. Since RT was published, they have retconned so that the Warhammer World is not in the 40k universe.

In the above case, then.

Archaon the Everchosen (Think of Abbadon in 40k, yet with actual sway over the Legions) Is a Primarch, and Sigmar is the other.


IF GW intended WHFB characters to be the missing primarchs, any ideas as to who?

I'm not sure Archaon existed at the time of Rogue Trader in the Warhammer fluff. He might have, I just don't know. I do know that Sigmar existed, because I played the RPG.

I don't think it was Archaon either,

He did not exist at the time of Sigmar, but in that case it is up for grabs.

Dear lord guys.

Read up on some Lexicanum stuff. Sigmar being a Primarch was debunked a long time ago. WHFB and 40k now have nothing to do with each other. Different universe and all that.

Alpharius and Omegon are two different people, but Omegon was never 100% revealed because he is a secret of the Legion.

To help you guys out: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alpharius

Nothing good comes out of these threads, just confusion.....

dietrich wrote:PS: I think at the time of Rogue Trader, Sigmar was intended to be one of the lost Primarchs based on the fluff associated with him at the time (a twin-tailed comet fortold his coming, he was bigger and stronger and nearly impossible to kill, etc.). At the time, the Warhammer World was part of the 40k universe, but blocked off by warp storms. I would guess the other missing primarch was a Chaos warlord, but I didn't follow the WFB fluff much (I did play the RPG, but it really just covered the Empire), so I don't know if there was a chaos-guy that fit a Primarch's description. Since RT was published, they have retconned so that the Warhammer World is not in the 40k universe.

Dreadwinter wrote:Sigmar being a Primarch was debunked a long time ago. WHFB and 40k now have nothing to do with each other. Different universe and all that.

As I said, at the time of RT, I think that Sigmar was intended to be one. He's clearly not now, since they've changed with Sigmar's and the Warhammer World's fluff.

Who is sigmar?

Sigmar was the founder of the Empire in Warhammer Fantasy.

Oh.I see. Now who is this Nagash?

www.lexicanum.com

Read up on some fluff my friend.

Uh that is what I did my friend. That is why I started this thread. Because I read some fluff and I wanted to ask the fair people of dakka.

The Grey Knights were founded by the loyalist remnants of the Death Guard.

In regards to Legio II and XI: anything could've happened to them, but it is certain that they are no more. In all likeliness something happened to their Primarchs during their time alone in the tube and on whatever planet they landed. It could be the taint of chaos, as there are plenty of instances where chaos has bled through or permeated a world. Such as Caliban.

One of the theories is that one of them was a stillbirth in the tube. I believe when Chaos is trying to bring Horus to chaos, he is given a vision/sent through time or something and he hits the tube one of them is in, saying something along the lines of "What a waste." The tube cracks when he hits it.

So much speculation.....

Reading that paragraph, I assumed it was his own tube he cracked. It was written with such vagueness that it was difficult to decipher whether this was some sort of time travel (given the fight with the Custodes) or just part of the Chaos-induced vision.

AHHHH!!!! MORE TIME TRAVEL MAJIG AND CRAP LIKE THAT!!!!!!!

Right, its a very vague entry. But still, it COULD mean something. But then again, it probably doesn't..

Its definatly not Balacore and Sigmar because not the same universe anymore it wasn't just you know a warp storm like before that can't be them its impossible. *Sarcasim*

The chaos gods brought horus back in time and showed him the incubators and then the warp storm happened and the emporer was there, oh and this happened "He stopped by the tank with XI upon it, he placed his hand upon the smooth steel feeling the untapped glories that might have lain ahead for grew within, knowing that it will never come to pass"

So the 15s was obviously never discovered or dead, or flew into the eye of terror and was lost.

Ok.This starting to make some sorta sense.

RxGhost wrote:I think one of the missing Primarchs is Sigmar...the other is Nagash.

Skimming through the post when I saw this. I could not allow this to go by unpunished.
Sigmar = YES!!!
Nagash = NO FETHING WAY!!! HERESY!!!

Yes! I agree with Emperors Faithful. That is blasphomy!BURN THE HERETIC!!!!!!!!!!!

Mabye the Emprah tasked one (or both) with a secret missions even the other primarchs were not aware of. Perhaps it was a totally suicide mission (hence "they are lost to us" by High Imperial)

That post has made the most sense since I started this post. That means they were sort of in like a witness protection progam, like when some one could get killed the government erases all form of info about that person.

My post? (look hopeful)
Or perhaps they had failed the Emprah and he saw this as punishment.
Perhaps there was a threat so great that it took two whole legions to take it down. (early nids or necrons or something similar)
Perhaps they went rouge like Farsight and either carved out thier own empires willingly or were cut off from the Imperium by warp storms and such.
Or mabye they REALLY got owned on Istaan V.

Yes I was talking about your post.I am thinking that the first,second and last one are the most likely.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Or perhaps they had failed the Emprah and he saw this as punishment.

Very likely.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Perhaps there was a threat so great that it took two whole legions to take it down. (early nids or necrons or something similar)

Could be but there's no fluff to support it.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Perhaps they went rouge like Farsight and either carved out thier own empires willingly or were cut off from the Imperium by warp storms and such.

Possible extrapolation of your first suggestion.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Or mabye they REALLY got owned on Istaan V.

Simply wrong.

As in SO owned, SO ass kicked, that nobody even REMEMBERS thems. (p.s. sarcasm test manchu, you failed)

Actually the last reason is starting to seem unlikley. The primarchs were the best. And the books mention no unique characters who owned like 100 space marines.

As in the Istaan V scenario? That = joke deadratman.

Sorry.

Emperors Faithful wrote:As in the Istaan V scenario? That = joke deadratman.

Sarcasm or heresy, EF? Sometimes it's hard to tell. You may eventually have to burn yourself, lol.

Way ahead of ya.

LOL!!!!!!

Ok lets gather fluff info, we know that 2 primarch are missing, horus went back in time and its possible that one of them 15 never survived.

Factor

Two primarchs were deleted from imperial records.

There were twenty legions when Horus turned, during the Great Crusade.

Possible

That the Legions were banished for some unspeakable crimes.

That one Primarch was never found.

They were mutanted/deformed and locked up somewhere for it, possible as mutants were to be purged, and the space emporeh wouldnt want people's to know.

They were taken down in some pre-heresy early nid battle.

Sent on some secret mission that would result in there death and noone as to know.

Is this all we got people's, looks like all were ever gonna get though.


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Ok lets gather fluff info, we know that 2 primarch are missing, horus went back in time and its possible that one of them 15 never survived.

Factor

Two primarchs were deleted from imperial records.

There were twenty legions when Horus turned, during the Great Crusade.

Possible

That the Legions were banished for some unspeakable crimes.

That one Primarch was never found.

They were mutanted/deformed and locked up somewhere for it, possible as mutants were to be purged, and the space emporeh wouldnt want people's to know.

They were taken down in some pre-heresy early nid battle.

Sent on some secret mission that would result in there death and noone as to know.

Is this all we got people's, looks like all were ever gonna get though.

One, mabye BOTH were never found.
I love the idea that Sigmar was a primarch. (Twin-Tailed Comet = Baby pod/capsule)

If the primarchs had never been found then their legions would have remained under the aegis of the Imperial authorities and would not have been lost. The only way for those two legions to have been lost is if their primarchs had led them to some fate outside the wishes of the emperor. Ergo, the primarchs were found and were able to screw up their respective legions.

Ah! Logic!

I hope someone hasnt made this joke yet.
Sly marbo IS the 2 missing legions.

Emperors Faithful wrote:One, mabye BOTH were never found.
I love the idea that Sigmar was a primarch. (Twin-Tailed Comet = Baby pod/capsule)

The TIME OF LEGENDS novels about Sigmar are quite specific that he was born from a woman (his mother to be precise), not a comet. Plus he didn't grow up at an accelerated rate, nor does he have a longer lifespan than the average man.

It's been said that all twenty Primarchs were found, and that Dorn at least knew about all of them. We also know by the time of the Heresy they were a non factor. Horus made plans for each Legion and didn't mention those two, which means they weren't a danger to him.

Since it was supposed to be a case of one going to Chaos and one staying good, I suspect the Legions aren't gone. I suspect they are still out there, somewhere. My personal suspicion was that the Emperor hid them somewhere in the Warp using the same kind of shielding as the Webway, holding them as an Ace in the Hole, and the barriers failed on one. But since they're both stuck in stasis...

But that's just a personal theory.

@BrookM: But mabye the time of legends is just a piece of INQUISITORIAL PROPAGANDA! WOW! Didn't see that coming!

I try to laugh but ugh, you kids can't crack a good joke these days.

Aren't the LoTD one of the missing ones?

@BrookM: Wow...way to shoot a try-hard down. My mamma always says, "If you can't say anything nice, then shut the %$£* up." (joking...again...)

@Shinigami: LotD went missing AFTER the Horus Heresy, and they were only chapters, no primarchs involved as far as I know.

Jon Garrett wrote:It's been said that all twenty Primarchs were found, and that Dorn at least knew about all of them. We also know by the time of the Heresy they were a non factor. Horus made plans for each Legion and didn't mention those two, which means they weren't a danger to him.

Dorn said he wished he had those 2 legions at his side, maybe "they are lost to us forever" doesn't mean the 2 legions have turned
traitor or got destroyed.
Possible to see them as "cannot be contacted" or those 2 legions were sent through the webway when it broke and stranded in another galaxy ?

Its one of the secrets GW should never reveal....

Well if the primarchs were lost wouldn't that mean the legions would have died off due to unstableness possibly mutation and loss of gene seed?

deadratman wrote:Well if the primarchs were lost wouldn't that mean the legions would have died off due to unstableness possibly mutation and loss of gene seed?

no

Primarchs were useful as "master-copy", but not necessary for a legion to exist.
Space marine legions were created without their primarchs around. Space marine chapters survive without primarchs.

Not impossible to keep 2 legions in service without their primarchs, but those primarchs were their planned leaders and
the emperor could be too busy to care about them personally all the time.

Oh I see.

I like the stuck in the webway idea, i mean, the custodians couldnt fight all the demons off and had to close it.
Why would they fight if there's nothing important in there?

Apart from the ablitity to travel across space, but they would risk custodians for that, only like 100 of them at a time.

Yeah. The webway is a good scenario.

BrookM wrote:The TIME OF LEGENDS novels about Sigmar are quite specific that he was born from a woman (his mother to be precise), not a comet. Plus he didn't grow up at an accelerated rate, nor does he have a longer lifespan than the average man.

Actually they say he was but he was born on a night when a comet was seen how do you know that they didn't just say he was born and he was actually just found. I mean they thought the 2 tailed comet thing was a sign from god how do you know thats not what they did when they went looking for the comet. Plus he grew quite fast actually at 15 he freed the Dwarf king and was a powerful warrior. I couldn't do that at 15 lol. He then united all the tribes became emperor then left. You can't say he doesn't have an extended life span because he was actually quite old when he left (still cut as a god) then just never came back. He is a missing Primarch!

Wait till the warpstorm lifts you'll all see.

1hadhq wrote:

deadratman wrote:Well if the primarchs were lost wouldn't that mean the legions would have died off due to unstableness possibly mutation and loss of gene seed?

no

Primarchs were useful as "master-copy", but not necessary for a legion to exist.
Space marine legions were created without their primarchs around. Space marine chapters survive without primarchs.

Not impossible to keep 2 legions in service without their primarchs, but those primarchs were their planned leaders and
the emperor could be too busy to care about them personally all the time.

Well what about the Emperor's Children?Before Fulgrim was found something happened to the gene seed and the Emperor's Children had only 300 soldiers and were slowly dying out. What if something like this happened to one(or both)of the missing legions? Here is a scenario for you.
The legion's gene-seed was corrupted(maybe it was corrupted by toxic waste or something like that) and because the primarch was never found they had no more pure gene-seed and so the organs didn't work properly and so were easily killed off until there were no more soldiers.

The Emperor's Children suffered from a genetic flaw that affected over 95% of their original gene stock.

Excatly. If fulgrim wasn't found the legion would probly be destroyed.

But that's not to say that such a fate is INEVITABLE for a priamrch-less legion.

No it is not. What I am saying is if large amounts of gene-seed are corrupted and the primarch wasn'y found to provide pure gene-seed then such a fate is more likely. Even legions who's primarchs were found quickly still suffered mutation.

As much as i love debating fluff, and working stuff out that people have done hundred times before, no insult intented.

We have alot of idea's alot of fluff to support it, but it all comes down too GW created two missing legions, to make us by there novels for evidence, and discuss the game and get involved, also so people can make very expensive Pre-Heresy armys of the missing legions.

All 'bout the money these days.THE FILTHY BLOOD MONEY!!!!!!!!

GW are money grabbing Sh*t Heads.

Wow, aren't you being just a little harsh?

Given that we still "know" about the Traitor Legions and given what they actually did (or tried to do), just what could the {deleted} two legions have done that was...worse?

I mean, the Emperor's Children were running around on Terra rendering people down into drugs!

Good Point Alpharius. Perhaps theirs was a earlier heresy that was kept under wraps by the Emprah to avoid moral blow/ideas amongst the other Primarchs.

I'm all for the Unkown legions being either lost to us through a warp storm, utter anhilation early in the crusades (beforeb other primarchs) or simply never being found and their legions being subsidised into other legions to replace the losses.

Also, if a primarch was never found, and if he wasn't killed by an enemy, how long would they live? 10milenium? (look hopeful)

Emperors Faithful wrote:Also, if a primarch was never found, and if he wasn't killed by an enemy, how long would they live? 10milenium? (look hopeful)

Well the Space Marines only use inplanted genetic material from them (i.e. they're not clones) and they can live for over 1000 years, throw dreanought armour into the equation and you get old Bjorn! So yes the primarchs could easily live for 10k years.

It would be interesting if GW decide to ditch the whole *missing* idea and bring one of the legions back, you would have to seriously downgrade the power of the Primarch for gaming though; but then they do the same with the C'Tan and Daemon princes.

Primarch Sigmar! Head of the...Zeolot-people-who-love-comets-hate-beastmen-legion...? Don't know if it would work.

It would be nice for us SM players to have a primarch to rally behind, but then I suppose that's what the chapter masters are for Plus we'd probably just start arguing and creating civils wars because we don't like what they have to say

Rowboat is still technically alive.

@Grim.Badger: After scouring through some old White Dwarf I found out GW did use to sell the 40k size model of Leman Russ (with two wolves). There were no rules for him and he was mainly a collectible. Also, the miniture looked crap.


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Rowboat = Roboute Gulliman or...?

Yes he is and apparently el'Jonson is asleep somewhere in the lowest reaches of the Dark Angel's rock. I believe Vulkan is thought to be alive as well as Leman Russ.


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What happened to the White Scars primarch?

Trapped on Kommorah (SP??), endlessly fighting in the Dark Eldar gladatorial pits.

Cormarragh? Okay, thanks.

What happened to Rogal Dorn?He died at the end of the first black crusade right?

They found the remains of Dorn's hand. They don't know what happened to the rest of his body.

About Sigmar (since I keep bringing it up). GW has made in clear in the current fluff that Sigmar is not a primarch and that the Warhammer World is not in the 40k universe. In the Rogue Trader-era (and maybe even into second edition), it was heavily implied that Sigmar was a missing Primarch. But, like a lot of things, GW retconned that.

I've suspected one of the Legions fell into sorcery and was banished as a result or destroyed themselves by letting something lose. And that is why the Emperor forebade the use of Sorcery.

So that makes two legions who used magic.

dietrich wrote:I've suspected one of the Legions fell into sorcery and was banished as a result or destroyed themselves by letting something lose. And that is why the Emperor forebade the use of Sorcery.

What is the basis of your suspicion? We already have that story. To wit:

deadratman wrote:So that makes two legions who used magic.

I remember there being some fluff ages ago that suggested The Legion of The Damned were one of the lost legions, and they appeared to aid the Imperium in order to atone for some past sin.

Also, Nagash is the first and greatest of the Liches in WFB, he is essentially the source of the Undead armies in that lore. And GW have already said that Sigmar ISN'T a Primarch, the two universes, whilst similiar, are entirely seperate

Dark Lord Seanron wrote:I remember there being some fluff ages ago that suggested The Legion of The Damned were one of the lost legions, and they appeared to aid the Imperium in order to atone for some past sin.

LotD were Fire Hawks (all fluff forum speculation aside).

My guess is that they purposely got lost to generate an excuse for getting rid of that UGLY paint scheme and EVEN UGLIER symbol.

dietrich wrote:They found the remains of Dorn's hand. They don't know what happened to the rest of his body.

Actually they do

Rogal Dorn died fighting on board a Chaos ship, after attacking the first Black Crusade fleet with a vastly outnumbered force. Seeing the importance of attacking the enemy fleet while they were still preparing he relied on hit-and-run attacks until his reinforcements could arrive. Dorn died on board the Despoiler Class Battleship Sword of Sacrilege after leading a desperate attack on its bridge. His remains were recovered and his engraved skeletal hand is kept in stasis by his chapter.2

Dorn's skeleton without his hands is kept within a chapel, and embedded in clear amber contoured to the body form of the Primarch himself. Dorn's skeletal fists are kept within two shrines, the bones intricately engraved with the heraldry of all the Chapter's previous Masters. Only the Chapter Master has the right to engrave his name upon the bones. Each bone corresponds to former commanders. Left hand, the first metacarpal: Lords Bronwin Abermort, Maximus Thane, Kalman Flodensbog, the first phalanx of the thumb, Ambrosian Spactor, etc.5

Hasn't there already been like, 4000 of these threads?

Yes, but there are new users who have never seen these threads before and the horror goes on...

Manchu wrote:

dietrich wrote:I've suspected one of the Legions fell into sorcery and was banished as a result or destroyed themselves by letting something lose. And that is why the Emperor forebade the use of Sorcery.

What is the basis of your suspicion? We already have that story. To wit:

deadratman wrote:So that makes two legions who used magic.

I'm guessing. By outlawing the use of sorcery, it suggests that the Emperor knew it could go very wrong. But, the Imperium depends on psykers (notably navigators), so it can't be that all psykers are bad. Plus, there was the Council of Nikea which addressed the use of sorcery and psykers.


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And oops on Dorn. I remembered the skeletal hands, and I thought that was all they found of him.

Just worked this out for myself but thought others might find it useful:

I Dark Angels - Lion El'Jonson - Missing after fighting Luther, “Asleep” in The Rock.

II unknown - all records lost following the Horus Heresy.

III Emperor's Children - Fulgrim – Trapped in his own mind, now a daemon prince.

IV Iron Warriors - Perturabo – Daemon Prince.

V White Scars - Jaghatai Khan – Lost in the warp, possibly captive of Dark Eldar.

VI Space Wolves - Leman Russ – Sodded off with the 13th Great Company, missing.

VII Imperial Fists - Rogal Dorn – Dead, encased in amber with no hands.

VIII Night Lords - Konrad Curze – Willingly assassinated by Callidus.

IX Blood Angels - Sanguinius – Dead and buried on Baal, killed by Horus.

X Iron Hands - Ferrus Manus – Killed by Fulgrim, rumoured to be alive on Mars.

XI unknown - all records lost following the Horus Heresy

XII World Eaters - Angron – Daemon Prince

XIII Ultramarines - Roboute Guilliman – Poisoned by Fulgrim and mortally wounded, now in stasis and reputedly healing.

XIV Death Guard - Mortarion – Daemon Prince

XV Thousand Sons - Magnus the Red – Daemon Prince

XVI Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus – Horus – Dead, body destroyed but only after at least one clone made, unknown if any clones survived.

XVII Word Bearers - Lorgar – Daemon (Prince?)

XVIII Salamanders - Vulkan – Probably alive but missing.

XIX Raven Guard - Corax – Went mad and headed towards the eye of terror.

XX Alpha Legion - Alpharius and Omegon – Alpharius dead but Omegon alive – Traitors against the empire but work towards the fall of Chaos (followers of Malal?)

Chaos have seven Deamon Primarchs, could overthrow the Imperium pretty smoothly if you ask me, but only Angron has been out of the warp in 10,000 years, lazy buggers, the Imperium have 6 primarchs, Ultra smurfs primarch is slowly dieing in a static field while they try to find a cure.

Russ's armour and weapons were found and is possibly a demon dog running around the eye of terror or a pet for a Daemon Primarch, maybe Magnus they hated each other.

The others are either lost in the eye of terror, dead or gone missing.

Now wasnt Vulkan lost, in the battle on Instavann?
Maybe the Cabal have got him, and he's come back one day.

As we know, Vulkan is still alive. According to the SM dex, "Vulkan will return when the forge father finds all his artifacts" iirc.

Vulkan commented on the Codex Astartes so he must have survived Istvaan...

In regards to Ferrus, I doubt he's still alive seeing as FULGRIM BEHEADED HIM ON ISTVAAN AND SHOWED HIS HEAD TO HORUS IN A LITTLE BOX.

It's funny actually, most answers are out there in the novels and the Horus Heresy collected visions books.

Yes but the answers are arranged in such a way that when read them you don't realise that you found the answers and that they only raise more questions.

deadratman wrote:Yes but the answers are arranged in such a way that when read them you don't realise that you found the answers and that they only raise more questions.

Lol. Too true.

Hmm, I don't really see the novels as such mind-boggling affairs.

well lets see the primarchs some are still out there waiting to be called. And the Daemon Princes can't get near terra because their is such a massive warfleet surronding it. it would take 300 years to defeat -.-.
and every chapter would come running to terra with 4000 battle barges with them!
so i think the Daemon Princes would get OWNED!
but still the 2 missing primarchs are unknown but it might be the blood ravens or another chapter we don't know gw made that to make people likes agrue about this stuff.
I talked to the Regional Manger of the US and he talked about that so he said that Blood Ravens MAY be a legion but they want players to make their own legion up.

It takes a massive amount of chaos energy to summon a Primarch Daemon Prince from the Warp. Magnus has tried to get out of the Warp a few times, but he got screwed over by Space Pups every time.

Its not that their lazy, it just takes a whole lot of work and a couple of them probably have plans to get out.

thats not what i mean't :*(

Now if all the chaos primarchs could get out of the warp and combined there legions, titans and get the gods behind them, then they would go straight to terra, doesnt matter how many battlebarges, and space marines the imperium has, the primarchs are tactical genius and noone in the Imperium has the tactical mindpower like them.

Well all the space marine would come running to terra, and fight the Chaos marines, the only difference is that chaos marines have 10,000 years exprience fighting, well most of them do, and could unleash demons, and would be alot more powerful then last time during the assault on terra, back then they didnt have demons, as well as the amazing iron warriors to help lay down a seige, the chaos marines could conquer terra and the surrounding worlds in a matter of years.

Well lets say out of a traitor legion about 2,000 stayed loyal, now there are 8 legions that went traitor so roughly around 64,000 chaos marines now those killed and stuff over the 10,000 years would take off roughly 30,000 marines. So original traitors around 34,000,
a librarian said about 100 full chapters have turned to chaos so that boasts there numbers by about 70,000.
Theres a 100,000 space marines out there, and alot of them wouldnt be able to rush to terra.

This is all guesswork, but you get the point, if somehow all the primarchs got out the warp then they could destroy the Imperium.

How would they do that, i dont know sacrifice the whole cadian system to the chaos gods, maybe thats whats Abbaddon tryna acheive.

The primarchs are tactical geniuses. The daemon princes are no longer primarchs so whether they still have that tactical genius is not certain. The number of loyal marines is at least 700,000, not 100,000. The loyalists vastly outnumber the traitors unless the traitor legions have expanded far beyond their original numbers.

There are primarchs, its not like they are swapping there minds for the minds of a standard deamon prince, they are still what they were, but chaos and with 10,000 years exprience behind them.

I dont know where you get your numbers from there are a 100 chapters of 1,000 space marines.

Xav wrote:There are primarchs, its not like they are swapping there minds for the minds of a standard deamon prince, they are still what they were, but chaos and with 10,000 years exprience behind them.

That's right. They were "promoted" to demon prince status. They're still the same "person" (i.e., have the same memories, mental capabilities, etc). I also find those numbers somewhat troubling--to bad Gwar!'s not around.

Which ones? the very rough chaos marines numbers or the 700,000 space marines?

I was a bit mean to the chaos marines i mean about 40,000 marines out of 64,000 marines must have survived, i think, and add on atleast 50 full chapters added there numbers are going to be equal if not similar to Space marines, but without Guard support.

Xav wrote:Which ones? the very rough chaos marines numbers or the 700,000 space marines?

I was a bit mean to the chaos marines i mean about 40,000 marines out of 64,000 marines must have survived, i think, and add on atleast 50 full chapters added there numbers are going to be equal if not similar to Space marines, but without Guard support.

I meant all of the numbers posted in this thread so far. For a brief glimpse at how hard the number game is in Warhammer please see Gwar!'s masterpiece on the modern Space Wolves here.

Well i just read that and i think we can re-do how many marines are there.

Looks like there's 1200 per chapter at any given time, so thats about roughly 120,000 space marines in our world today, not including ones lost in warp storms or trapped in the warp.

Lets stick to 10,000 marines per legion, and say about 1,000 loyalist marines in every traitor.

Thats 72,000 chaos marines, if we add the traitor chapters, which is atleast 50 chapters, probaly having about 200 who stay loyal we got about 122,000 chaos marines.

Chaos space marines recruit into there ranks as well, just not as frequently as space marines, i think.

So i think that puts the numbers today at about 90,000 to 97,000 chaos marines, would anyone agree with me?

I always wanted to establish a number for the chaos marines out there.

isnt there supposedly ~ 1000 chapters around

I dont believe for a second there a 1000 chapters around thats million marines atleast! Thats bull, i dont care what GW say to make there fanboys sound better.

Xav wrote:I dont believe for a second there a 1000 chapters around thats million marines atleast! Thats bull, i dont care what GW say to make there fanboys sound better.

Well, that's the correct number. Hey--it's a big galaxy and someone's got to keep the xenos, mutants, witches, heretics, traitors, etc in order (no offence to the Guard or Sisters).

Mean while: everyone come and vote in the Best Current Codex Survivor Game!

I dont care what anyone says, there were twenty legions, 10,000 marines in each and thats a total of 200,000 half of them were lost to chaos, i can understand that the space marine might have incresed a few thousand over then thouasand years, but not 90,000 its bull.

Agreeing with that would be like agreeing that there's 1000 in a chapter, its obvious there not but its what GW says.

Gotta be WAYYY less CSM than that. Their ranks only get replenished when loyal marines fall, and lets face it, that doesn't happen often. On top of that, CSM have been fighting for ten thousand years. Not only against the Imperium but against themselves in the eye of terror. Fluff wise CSM are VERY rare as well. If there were really that many chaos marines the Imperium probably would've been overthrown already.

Xav wrote:Agreeing with that would be like agreeing that there's 1000 in a chapter, its obvious there not but its what GW says.

I honestly do not understand this argument. If GW or BL says something definite pertaining to the 40k universe, it is a fact of that universe until they say something else or unless they say something else at the same time. This is especially true when they say the same bit of information over and over again. For the sake of discussion, forty thousand years should be enough to recruit a million or so humans out of the many trillions that inhabit the Imperium.

firebat wrote:Gotta be WAYYY less CSM than that. Their ranks only get replenished when loyal marines fall, and lets face it, that doesn't happen often.

This seems very likely to me.

Because they cant get out of the eye of terror, and thats the only stable way to bring a big force out, they have to sneak into the imperium, what about the chaos space marine raiders like Huron Blackheart, and its a big imperium, if there were so many space marines then why havnt they launched a raid into the eye of terror and kill all the traitors?

Because it would ruin the game, like if the space marines could fall it would ruin the game so they create too many of them to kill.

Xav wrote:Because it would ruin the game, like if the space marines could fall it would ruin the game so they create too many of them to kill.

+++ALERT! ALERT! BREACH IN FOURTH WALL!+++

Seriously though, that's pretty much the bottom line.

The only reason any one race is ever a threat is because they are cuppled with all the other threats in the Imperium. There is no one Enemy the Imperium couldn't beat sept maybe tyranids but thats maybe. The imperium out mans and out anythings any race. If the imperium through there wieght at crushing CSMs in the Eye of Terror they'd win and overwhelmingly. ITs just the fact of using resources towards that other than elsewhere because that would be such a large undertaking.

CajunMan550 wrote:The only reason any one race is ever a threat is because they are cuppled with all the other threats in the Imperium. There is no one Enemy the Imperium couldn't beat sept maybe tyranids but thats maybe. The imperium out mans and out anythings any race. If the imperium through there wieght at crushing CSMs in the Eye of Terror they'd win and overwhelmingly. ITs just the fact of using resources towards that other than elsewhere because that would be such a large undertaking.

Agree 100%--well maybe 99%. I don't think the Tyranids would survive the full might of the Imperium.

Manchu wrote:

CajunMan550 wrote:The only reason any one race is ever a threat is because they are cuppled with all the other threats in the Imperium. There is no one Enemy the Imperium couldn't beat sept maybe tyranids but thats maybe. The imperium out mans and out anythings any race. If the imperium through there wieght at crushing CSMs in the Eye of Terror they'd win and overwhelmingly. ITs just the fact of using resources towards that other than elsewhere because that would be such a large undertaking.

Agree 100%--well maybe 99%. I don't think the Tyranids would survive the full might of the Imperium.

The nids we see now are just the scouting part, the nids have already devoured a whole galaxy, and this one's next, this is just the scouts when the trynids decided to turn there full attention towards this galaxy it doesnt matter how many times the Ultramarines, drive off billions of nids, ever though in the last BRB it clearly stated they were screwed and i was happy, but then they survived And there not aloud to survive

The Imperium of man shall survive!

Xav wrote:The nids we see now are just the scouting part, the nids have already devoured a whole galaxy, and this one's next, this is just the scouts when the trynids decided to turn there full attention towards this galaxy it doesnt matter how many times the Ultramarines, drive off billions of nids, ever

As they say, o rly?

Try this:

Andy Chambers, Pete Haines, Graham McNeill, Phil Kelly, & Andy Hoare wrote:The menace of the Necron expansion grows with each passing year and will soon reach catastrophic proportions. This could spell the end of Humanity, for the core of the Necron threat nestles like a cancer within the Imperium itself.

The Codices always strive to make their particular subjects the most threatening of all threats. And for all we know, the galaxy that the Tyranids last ate had little to no sentient life much less a force as overwhelmingly powerful as the Imperium.

Still thats alot of nids escially if these one aint the main group, there could be giant battlebarge sized nids out there, sniffing out galaxys.

But the good news is that if there sending scouts then this isnt the only galaxy there investigating, they may take a while to get here

They could also not be big as we all think. Of course there horrible but what if what we have seen is all there is? Sure that's hopefull at best but as Manchu says every race is made to be the biggest threat and super powerful at every chance.

SonofTerra wrote:isnt there supposedly ~ 1000 chapters around

Yes I'm afraid Xav is wrong, there are about 1000 loyal Chapters; about 60% of which are Ultramarines and so can more or less be depended upon to come to the aid of Terra. Most of the chapters would aid Terra, but not all as they all have their own agendas and the loss of Terra would not be a huge blow to the Empire (other than a moral one obviously).
But to take Terra you also have to get past the Adeptus Mechanicus who have massive armies and fleets of their own, they are unlikely to back Chaos this time as chaos offers them nothing they want; they strive for order and mechanical perfection, and mechanical things don't work very well in the warp lol
Also the AM are more organised than the imperium so will be able to call upon re-enforcements more easily.

There were Daemons during the first seige of Terra, although I don't know how many, as Sanguinius defeated a Blood Thirster at the Eternity gate.
Also, how many of the Primarchs would want to leave the warp? As far as I can tell Fulgrim and Mortarion have everything they could ever want in there, and their minions can bring them almost anything else

So the numbers would probably be roughly equal in an ideal world, but uniting the forces of Chaos is more difficult than uniting the twin powers of the Imperium and the Adeptus Mechanicus. Plus Daemons aren't very reliable outside of the gaming world, especially with Sister of Silence around.

Who are the sisters of silence? I've heard of them once before, but only a vague reference.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Who are the sisters of silence? I've heard of them once before, but only a vague reference.

They're Phsycic Nulls, instead of having psycic powers they nullify others phsycic abilities; sort of like walking psycic hoods

Edit: Just to throw some numbers around; the Progenoid takes 5-10 years to mature, allowing extraction to make new Space Marines. As there are two Progenoids, you can make two marines for each one recruited. Baring any loses (no battle loses as they are still in training after 10 years) the Chapter can therefore double in size every 10 years.
Taking the Ultramarines as an example, lets say there were 70,000 left after the heresy and subsequent unrest; in 10,000 years they could potentially have grown to 140,000,000 marines, so 1,000,000 marines in the entire empire is very conservative and also doesn't take into account the large chapters such as the Black Templars.

Chaos do steal geneseed, but I don't think anyone knows how the warp effects it's growth in new marines.

It could be more than a million as there is good evidence to suggest that a chapter numbers many more marines than the thousand who make up the line and reserve companies.


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Xav wrote:Well i just read that and i think we can re-do how many marines are there.

Looks like there's 1200 per chapter at any given time, so thats about roughly 120,000 space marines in our world today, not including ones lost in warp storms or trapped in the warp.

Lets stick to 10,000 marines per legion, and say about 1,000 loyalist marines in every traitor.

Thats 72,000 chaos marines, if we add the traitor chapters, which is atleast 50 chapters, probaly having about 200 who stay loyal we got about 122,000 chaos marines.

Chaos space marines recruit into there ranks as well, just not as frequently as space marines, i think.

So i think that puts the numbers today at about 90,000 to 97,000 chaos marines, would anyone agree with me?

I always wanted to establish a number for the chaos marines out there.

My 700,000 number is a complete guestimate based on what I think the minimum number of marines would be. Going with a minimum of 1000 chapters and having them all facing at least 30% casualties. At the other end you have 1000 chapters plus, each with 1200 marines giving 1.2 million marines.


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A million is not many anyway, that's less than one marine for every thousand or more planets.

I am so sick of this argument..PLEASE LOCK!!!!

Colonel is you dont like the discussion then dont read it.

I just cant beleive that, million is alot and thats means the space marines banded together could potentially destroy the nids, eldar, necrons, traitor marines.

Its just GW's way of showing The Space Marines, as the best thing in the galaxy, i dont realy believe that, and i didnt think anyone else did.

Its impossibly, mars would never be able to supply the amount of bolter rounds, it would require to fuel million marines, and there are billions of humans, but a very small chance that they are found at the right age and fitness levels to became a space marines, and survive basic training.

Xav wrote:Colonel is you dont like the discussion then dont read it.

I just cant beleive that, million is alot and thats means the space marines banded together could potentially destroy the nids, eldar, necrons, traitor marines.

Its just GW's way of showing The Space Marines, as the best thing in the galaxy, i dont realy believe that, and i didnt think anyone else did.

Its impossibly, mars would never be able to supply the amount of bolter rounds, it would require to fuel million marines, and there are billions of humans, but a very small chance that they are found at the right age and fitness levels to became a space marines, and survive basic training.

You don't believe Space Marines can't do that? They can't do it all at once but yes individualy SMs would crush any one of those force with no trouble at all. And Mars isn't the only place that produces equipment for marines there are forgeworlds all over the Imperium. If there was only the one no marine would have a single bolter round ever....


Also chapters like the Black Templar need to be counted there estimated to be as alarge as 6k marines.

Xav wrote:I just cant beleive that, million is alot and thats means the space marines banded together could potentially destroy the nids, eldar, necrons, traitor marines.
Its impossibly, mars would never be able to supply the amount of bolter rounds, it would require to fuel million marines, and there are billions of humans, but a very small chance that they are found at the right age and fitness levels to became a space marines, and survive basic training.

Marines make most of their own equipment. The Forge Worlds only make the really advanced stuff like Land Raiders and Lascannons, and there are loads of ForgeWorlds.
There are billions of humans on each Hive World and there are hundreds of Hive Worlds; most chapters draw their recruits on a regular basis from a set number of planets so finding recruits is not a problem.

Yes there are a lot of Marines, but there will be massively outnumbered by the Nids, and probably by the Necrons as well. The imperiums main defence against the nids is the Imperial Fleet anyway....

Grim.Badger wrote:As far as I can tell Fulgrim and Mortarion have everything they could ever want in there, and their minions can bring them almost anything else

Everything but vengeance!

Emperors Faithful wrote:Who are the sisters of silence? I've heard of them once before, but only a vague reference.

I think you'd really like them, EF. IIRC, they are in Galaxy in Flames, Flight of the Eisenstein, and have their own short story called "The Voice" in Tales of Heresy.

Grim.Badger wrote:Yes there are a lot of Marines, but there will be massively outnumbered by the Nids, and probably by the Necrons as well. The imperiums main defence against the nids is the Imperial Fleet anyway....

The main defense of the Imperium in every case is either the Fleet (as Badger remarked here) or the "untold billions" of the Imperial Guard. Most Space Marine Chapters are best employed as a surgical strike force (although not every Chapter specializes in this like the Raptors do). Xav, you have to think of Space Marines in the context of a galactic power that boasts the IG as its main air/ground fighting force. A million marines (or even significantly more) is still a tiny, tiny sliver in comparison to who knows how many thousands of regiments. Also, those million Marines are split up into one thousand Chapters which do not all cooperate. They are not a coherent force, barring an invasion of Terra. It's really not that hard to believe.

colonel584 wrote:I am so sick of this argument..PLEASE LOCK!!!!

Um, no?

However, feel free to ignore this thread.

Xav wrote:Colonel is you dont like the discussion then dont read it.

I just cant beleive that, million is alot and thats means the space marines banded together could potentially destroy the nids, eldar, necrons, traitor marines.

Its just GW's way of showing The Space Marines, as the best thing in the galaxy, i dont realy believe that, and i didnt think anyone else did.

Its impossibly, mars would never be able to supply the amount of bolter rounds, it would require to fuel million marines, and there are billions of humans, but a very small chance that they are found at the right age and fitness levels to became a space marines, and survive basic training.

Look at it this way...there are roughly a thousand chapter coming to a total of around one million marines. Some Chapters are larger than this but many Chapters are below standard strength, so it evens itself out.

Now...how many worlds are there in the Imperium? Millions. It would be impossible to Garrison each world with a single Marine, due to the numbers. You might, maybe, be able to do it for every habitable world out there but I doubt it.

Add in the fact that an average Imperial Guard Campaign will cost several million lives and you start getting a real idea of how few Marines a million is. Hence why they never stay long in a warzone. Marines cannot fight wars of attrition. They need the Guard for that. And it's why the loss of a chapter is such a blow to the Imperium.

As for the supplies...Mars wouldn't have to. There are hundred, maybe thousands of Forge Worlds out there, and many Hive Worlds are capable of making basic gear. It wouldn't be a shock to find a large part of the TechMarine's duties were to forge blessed bolter shells. I know in Dark Heresy mention is made that certain elite gun manufacturers are allowed to make at least some of a bolter shell before it's finished by trained Tech Priests.

As for how many Chaos Marines there are, it's impossible to say. It should be noted that at least some of the Legions seem to be determined to build there numbers again. The Iron Warriors made that nasty Daemonculaba to mass produce more Iron Warriors, there was a big feud between three Iron Warrior Warsmiths over Gene-Seed stolen from an Adeptus Mechanicus facility and the Red Corsairs spent three years stealing the Marines Errant Gene-Seed. It may be Chaos infighting, trying to build there own powerbase up, but I suspect between time, attrition, a lack of proper facilities and mutation the Chaos Marines have lost a lot of there Gene-Seed and numbers, and they're doing everything they can to make those numbers back up.

Alpharius wrote:

colonel584 wrote:I am so sick of this argument..PLEASE LOCK!!!!

Um, no?

However, feel free to ignore this thread.

Winner!

Yes, marines are usually sent to the most dangerous warzones or in the last few battles crucial to winning a campaign. Basically the IG are the mop while the SM are the paper towls.

And the Grey Knights are like Bounty, the quicker picker upper.

I can feel the sarcasm but your right manchu. The grey knights are sort of like bounty. They are sent to quickly pick up any Daemon infestation. Exactly as if the grey knights were the towl and the daemons the spill

I've got to master this [/sarcasm] button! I was following along with your metaphor and completely agreeing.

Sorry.

No prob, man. It's my fault (as I get that reaction far too often).

You dont have to apoligize. They should make a sarcasm orkmicon or whatever the smileys are called.

deadratman wrote:You dont have to apoligize. They should make a sarcasm orkmicon or whatever the smileys are called.

Grinz?

So, my theory on at least one of the missing Chapters:

Rainbow Warriors. Once upon a time in Rogue Trader mention was made of thier existance...before the conspiracy to erase thier memory from Imperial record was carried out!

You see, they had a fabulous idea...their Codex allowed for "Tactical Redecorating" which let you arrange your opponents forces in a more aesthetically pleasing fashion. A more heinous power was "Strategic Makeovers" the effects of which cannot be mentioned, as to this day it still drives Leman Russ to drink excessively.

Ultimately, their success was thier undoing. The Inquisitors of the Adeptus Marketus had coined the phrase we all know 'In the grim darkness of the future...' and the Rainbow Warriors were inadvertently campaigning against that. So, for those with knowledge of such things- it was no surprise when Inquisition sent every last Rainbow Warrior on insurmountable tasks, Redecorating the Warp, Teaching Fashion Sense to the Hive Fleets and Ork Waaghs.

Alas...the tales of thier mighty conquests are relegated to some dusty closet where only the lonely, but well dressed, lexicanum servitors visit.

So what your saying is that you think the rainbow queers are an "unknown legion"

deadratman wrote:So what your saying is that you think the rainbow queers are an "unknown legion"

Are you asking a question, or making a statement?

I said its a theory....first sentence...

It was a question my kind sir or madam.

deadratman wrote:It was a question my kind sir or madam.

Puttin a ?? on the end helps clarify that

Mistress of minis wrote:So, my theory on at least one of the missing Chapters:

And I said theory, and Im talkin about the now defunct Rainbow Warriors- who did exist in Rogure Trader era fluff. And suddenly disappeared....

Sorry. Just tryin to be polite.

Mistress of minis wrote:And I said theory, and Im talkin about the now defunct Rainbow Warriors- who did exist in Rogure Trader era fluff. And suddenly disappeared....

I think the point has been lost. This theory was meant to comment entertainingly about GW's commitment to marketability rather than continuity, no?

Wait- you mean GW adjusts the fluff to fit predicted saales patterns?

So....the Rainbow Warriors really arent helping the Squats find the pot of gold at the end of thier rainbows?!?! Say it aint so! :p

I am sorry but that is the truth. GW doesn't make minatures because they love people, they do it cause of the money. But your not totally wrong. The rainbow warriors probly do help the squats find the gold at the end the rainbow but on the way home a rainbow warrior parks in his garage and decides to "have a little chat about the money out back" if you know what I mean.

The only Rainbow Warrior I've heard of was the Greenpeace ship blown up by the French back in the 80s.

cadbren wrote:The only Rainbow Warrior I've heard of was the Greenpeace ship blown up by the French back in the 80s.

. . . simply can't resist . . .

FOR THE WOLFTIME (FtW)!

This is exactly why I can't understand why so many of my countrymen disdain the great Gallic people.

cadbren wrote:The only Rainbow Warrior I've heard of was the Greenpeace ship blown up by the French back in the 80s.

Wait a second.
Rainbow Warriors are Space Marines.
Chaos blows up Space Marines.
French blew up Rainbow Warrior.
OMG!!! The French are CHAOS! AAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!

Good thing that Rainbow Warriors are not Space Marines at all. ::prepares instruments of torture:: Isn't that right, EF?

Instruments of torture?

A Sisters of Battle player?

A Space Wolves player?

I like where this is going. Please continue.

lol!
Of course Dorothy is in 40k as well (read Deamon Codex fluff) "Somewhere, over the Rainbow..."

Cheese Elemental wrote:Instruments of torture?

A Sisters of Battle player?

A Space Wolves player?

I like where this is going. Please continue.

Hey . . . I have both Inquisitorial Codices, read Eisenhorn, and play Dark Heresy. And I have a growing devotion to the Sisters of Silence.
For my theme song see "God's Gonna Cut You Down" by Johnny Cash.

I still don't get who the Sisters of Silence are! Psycic nulls yeah, but are they on par with the custodes...or what?

The Custodes and the Sisters are, according the Visions of Heresy book, the "hands of the Emperor."

A whole legion of sisters...The Emprahs "hands" must be busy...

*sigh*

Emperors Faithful wrote:I still don't get who the Sisters of Silence are! Psycic nulls yeah, but are they on par with the custodes...or what?

Sisters of silence support other units in fights against psykers. ( alongside the custodes to hold the secret webway gate ).
They also crew the black ships and keep the psykers in check.

Wouldn't see them as gene-enhanced warriors, but naturally mutants with enough training to be on par with stormtroopers.

Spotted some sisters at the cover of the coming SW-HH novel ...could be interesting to find them with russ.

Manchu on the disussion about Deamonhunters being Bounty and deamons being the spill thats completely wrong.....there called plenty now.

I dont think the sisters of silence are in Galaxy in flaemes, just re-read it recently, i cant wait to the SW HH book, and then its thousand sons.

I have to admit now, im wrong there is a million space marines :(.

Putting aside that GW just want us to buy a legions amount of marines, seems like we covered all basic and reasonable theories, so we need put some crazy one up.

Robert Guillaman was SO perfect cause he ate the other primarchs, and the Ultraprats ate the other legions, making them so perfect.

Didn't the Rainbow Warriors recently reappear somewhere?

In the "How to Paint Space Marines Book"?

Maybe online, in the Gallery of Marine Chapters?

Bottom line: they're still around. Kind of.

Xav wrote:Manchu on the disussion about Deamonhunters being Bounty and deamons being the spill thats completely wrong.....there called plenty now.

Don't get it.

Xav wrote:I dont think the sisters of silence are in Galaxy in flaemes, just re-read it recently

Correct, my mistake.

Alpharius wrote:Didn't the Rainbow Warriors recently reappear somewhere?

In the "How to Paint Space Marines Book"?

Maybe online, in the Gallery of Marine Chapters?

Bottom line: they're still around. Kind of.

They show up in neither place these days. (Note, however, that the Chapter Gallery is far reduced.) Their chapter symbol, turned yellow, is now that of the Death Strike Chapter. The symbol (without color) appears in the 5th Edition Space Marine Codex Star Map (of Chapter Homeworlds), on page 30. Given that the planet indicated is called "Prism" it most likely refers to the Rainbow Warriors. The notation given is "<<record deleted>>". Perhaps there is a connection between the Death Strike and Rainbow Warriors Chapters. Could the Death Strike be a successor? Nothing in Rogue Trader suggests that the Rainbow Warriors are a First Founding Chapter. I would guess they are successors of the Ultramarines.

a Lexicanum user wrote:In [Rogue Trader] a Rainbow Warrior is illustrated being shot by an Adepta Sororitas.

This is supposedly from pages 225-26 but I don't have a copy so cannot verify that information. Rogue Trader apparently claims that the Sororitas work to maintain the genetic purity of the Space Marines . . . How's that for all you guys who think it takes an explicit recton to get rid of old fluff?

It's iffy using really old material because the fluff has changed so much. Compare this from WD97:

Chapter Ultra-Marine of the Legiones Astartes was founded during the inter-legionary wars of the thirty second millennium. Tradition places the date at 4001001.M32 - the very first day of the millenium. The chapter is therefore over eight thousand years old, making it a chapter of the third founding. Upon its inception, the Emperor gave the chapter the number 13 - formerly the number of one of the treacher-legions now banished to the Eye of Terror 'without number and name and with all honours erased.'

Along with their number, the new chapter received the gene-sperm, implant zygotes, ritual, and other paraphenalia of indoctrination previously entrusted to the banished 13th legion. The chapter's founder was Roboute Gulliman whose bones now lie in the Reclusium on Macragge.

Manchu it happens that Bounty the toilet paper you described as the Deamnhunters has changed its name to Plenty, i was trying to be witty but obviously failing.

Xav wrote:Manchu it happens that Bounty the toilet paper you described as the Deamnhunters has changed its name to Plenty, i was trying to be witty but obviously failing.

Are you sure?
Clearly, this is an across-the-pond issue.

Here's an article about it:

http://www.brandrepublic.com/News/879655/Bounty-kitchen-towel-renamed-Plenty/

An 8mill campian to show people that there changing there name, guess it didnt work.

Well, as I was trying to say, the name only changed in the UK not in the US. We still have Bounty.

What a strange world we live in, i couldnt read your link internet pretty slow, back to crazy theories on the missing legions, what if they were never found, and joined other legions?

I mean they would delete them because it would be pretty weird 2 legions no primarchs.

Well, that's a good point. Whether or not the Primarchs were found, there were two other standing legions at the beginning of the Great Crusade. Now what became of all those Space Marines? There is no hint in the HH books that they were incorporated into the others. I think it stands to reason that over the course of the 200 years between the launching of the Crusades and the Heresy, those legions were destroyed. I'm not sure if it was by the Emperor (and by his own "hands"--the Custodes and Sisters of Silence) or by external threats, like Chaos. Wouldn't it be something if the Eldar were responsible for one or both's disappearance? What if them being missing has something to do with Emperor's plan for the Webway?

We know the primarchs are prone to mutation, eldar revenge steal a primarch that hasnt been found yet, and then mutate him horrible.

Are the primarchs PRONE to mutation? Or were Magnus and Sanguinius MADE that way? I've certainly found nothing fluffwise that favours either option. Although the Emprah ignores both mutations, either making him a loving reasonable father, or he had planned thier mutation from the start.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Although the Emprah ignores both mutations, either making him a loving reasonable father, or he had planned thier mutation from the start.

You're very well spoken today, EF. I like!

What? You mean I'm not always logical/reasonable/funny/witty/smart/wise?!?

Sangiuas was mutated landed on planet near eye of terror.

I mean serious tenticales etc.

What if one was found by chaos raiders, found the primarch sees what he is, and takes him, like the astral claws, could be running around outer space now raiding planets.

Maybe the Emperor's plan for the Webway was a partial success and two whole legions with their primarchs are waiting there for the end of the world when the starchild will come forth to conquer the warp, slay the void dragon, and save all humanity forever!

Haha, Thorian enough for you?

Where does the webway lead?

All over the place. The Eldar use it rather than the Warp.

Perhaps they charged through the webway, but were cut off. And now are stranded in some remote part of the universe, with realms similar to Ultramar (the one thing Ultramarines can get right), cut off by savage storms? (or whatever lurks in the ghoul/halo stars)

Isnt there some big warp storm covering like 20% of the galaxy the emporer storm or something, the webway collaposed as two full legions went through to gather survivers and bring them back through the webway. But suddenly Magnus pyshic cummicates with the emporer and put pyshic holes in the webways the Custodes rus through to fight the rampaging demons in side the webway, but alas cant hold them off and it closes.

This might be the first turn the webway feths up, must have happened a few times before they closed it for good.

Actually, I have solid fluff (white dwarf = solid, right?) that when magnus used sorcery to warn the Emprah, it broke all the protective barriers. So yes, Magnus could easily be the cuase of the webway becoming contaminated/collapsing, and would also explain why Emprah was so furious and sent Russ after him. (For EDIT: all the Emprah knew, MAgnus had broken his oath and gotten 2 of his bros and thier legions killed) Good thinking Xav.

So we have two possible theories:

Webway collaopse and primarchs never found, any more possible theories.

um, that's 1 theory.

There is another that, according to Horus, one of the primarchs was a stillborn.
I am also of the opinion that Sigmar is one of lost primarchs. Some backwater fuedal world...somewhere.

Ops forgot about stillborn so:

Webway collaopse, stillborn primarch and sigmar.

That makes 3.
Also, possiblilty of a FEMALE primarch? (prepare for murderous onsluaght)
Perhaps the same one from the deamon codex...with the little black dog?

CajunMan550 wrote:The only reason any one race is ever a threat is because they are cuppled with all the other threats in the Imperium. There is no one Enemy the Imperium couldn't beat sept maybe tyranids but thats maybe. The imperium out mans and out anythings any race.

You cant kill us Orkiez our spores keep us going! we will rule the galaxy!!!!!

"We is gonnas stomp da universe flat and kill anyfink that fights back. We're da Orks, and we was made to fight and win."-Ghazghkull Thraka

Orks are so gross.

If it was solely Imperium Vs soley Orksies. Imperium would pwn.

You might like this one better

"The orks plague the galaxy from end to end with their ceaseless warring and strife. They are a race rooted so deeply in war that peace is utterly incomprehensible to them. They cannot be bargained with or bought to save with weapons that they will inevitably turn against those who tried to bribe them. I pray with all my faith that some great catastrophe will annihilate them but i fear that ulitmately it is they, not we, who shall rule the galaxy." - Xanthius, High Lord of Terra

Emperors Faithful wrote:If it was solely Imperium Vs soley Orksies. Imperium would pwn.

700,000 Space marines, and about 10 Billion Guard vs maybe i dont know alot of orks?

The campain would last for years, you cant fit that many orks onto a planet.

But the High Lord of Terra is kind of taking into account all the other foes the Imperium must face. If the Imperium wasn't beset on all sides, orks would be finding their asses getting a serious amount of pwnage.

Emperors Faithful wrote:If it was solely Imperium Vs soley Orksies. Imperium would pwn.

heres my answer to that

"Orkses is never beaten in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die so it don't count as beat. If we runs for it we don't die neither, so we can always come back for anuvver go, see!"- Anon

*sigh*
This is getting of topic. But I'll explain it agian.
If you're dead...you LOSE. If this was true, then NO ONE in 40k would EVA lose.

If you're dead...you LOSE. If this was true, then NO ONE in 40k would EVA lose.

It's only true for Orkies but i agree this is getting off topic.
So how about them missing legions?
Im sure they just decided to take a break from all their hardwork and went to some popular vacation spot.
Possibly a world with lava pits so they can relax in the hot vapors.

There must be billions of orks if not trillions, and taking into account that in fluff a guard gets owned by orks.

6 foot muscly monsters stand in front of you with a bloody axe would you stand your ground.

With a couple of billion guns/tanks/titans/spaz ships backing me up, not to mention the Spaz Marinz? Oh yeaaaaaaaah.

The orkz have just as much tanks then the imperial guard and about a trillion footsoilders.

And if you dont flame everywhere in the Galaxy orks ever died, there gonna come back.

The orkz have just as much tanks then the imperial guard and about a trillion footsoilders.

And if you dont flame everywhere in the Galaxy orks ever died, there gonna come back.

The thing is when Orks die they let of Spores that can become other orks or grots or just fungus so in a way they can't really be stopped or completely killed unless maybe with some kind of disease or you simply just ignore their existence and there you go no orks

SoB flamers. Immolators. Ork-Death on wheels.

Maybe we should just start a whole new thread.

Who would win? The Mighty Orks or the puny pathetic imperium?

Ill do it first!

Go ahead!
I rolled to see if i could post a new thread but sadly i rolled a 2 and i need a 3+

?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You should post that on "You know you play too much 40k when..."

Ah!!! EF you beats me again!!!

What? I beat you to saying "you should post that on You Know you Play too much 40k when...", or that I started an Orks Vs Imperium thread?

ok well this for the other conversion. their is less space marines than there are ELDAR! the eldar population is around 100 Billion or more i don't know their specific amount but still. The Space Marines are the SUPER ELITE! The Legions were militia believe or not read the Collected Visions Horus Hersey book. It tells you that even if all the chaos legions banded together. That Would be the dumbest idea ever agianst an entire EMPIRE! not to mention how many fleets and forces that surrond terra the Chaos Troops Have lost their armies and have become a shadow of their former image, they may be larger than a chapter but still they would get owned by the Forces surronding terra not to mention that the People of Mars would just have 30,000 ships waiting for them. First of all there are 6,000 black templars. 2nd Grey Knights have more than 1,000. 3rd there is more than 120,000 space marines, i know of a ton of chapters that do not follow the codex. Like the Space wolves have more than 1,000 as well as the Dark Angels.So end!
keep going on disscussion i believe the Blood Raven's may be a Legion but they may not be. I just Believe they may be.

@ Emperor's Faithful: The fact that you mentioned orks against the imperium. I was planning to do a thread concerning the imperium against orks!

Eldar pop CANNOT be above a billion. Iyanden was the BIGGEST craftworld, yet only had a few million AT MOST.
I doubt eldar pop reaches 1billion.

Yeah that's probably right.Even if you count the DA(which of course is the same species) it would probably be like 40 million. No that is probly wrong.

The Eldar have probably 'upped' in number considerably since they were declared almost extinct...so maybe they're up around the billion mark now...that is helped by the fact that Eldar Females are inexplicably FIT/beautiful too :-P lol

I mean, Eldar w/full head of hair......or Sister of Silence w/partial-cum-completely bald!!!???


Also I think maybe the 2 depleted Legions......well XI's capsule was cracked....making them more prone to Chaos exposure......so may have, in turn, just outrightly become a Daemon Prince....as for II....I think maybe they fought one another thus emulating what would happen between the Emperor and Horus, except II and XI both died as a result.

Dorn's comments make me sceptical of this though...as the HH saga grows there are little references to these two legions...and it drives me mad aswell as tickles my fancy....but then thats what the guys at GW want isn't it.....they want us to THINK

Either way...DArk Angels RULE!!! HAHA

Do you know how many craftworlds there are? Not many.

RobDA wrote:that is helped by the fact that Eldar Females are inexplicably FIT/beautiful too :-P lol

That's cancelled out by the same being true of the males.

Bu-dum Ksh!

So, Orkeosaurus finds himself attracted to the males of different species? Hmmm, the plot thickens.

Bu-dum Ksh!

Shut up, Eldar guys ARE pretty.

The only thing prettier than an eldar is an ork holding up the shredded remains of a space marine.
now THAT is true beauty

Emperors Faithful wrote:So, Orkeosaurus finds himself attracted to the males of different species?

NO HOMO

ChaoticOrkz wrote:The only thing prettier than an eldar is an ork holding up the shredded remains of a space marine.
now THAT is true beauty

You're right orkesaurus. Now THAT is homo.

Canonness Rory wrote:Shut up, Eldar guys ARE pretty.

well met, Eldar guys ARE PRETTY! HAHAHA

RobDA wrote:
I mean, Eldar w/full head of hair......or Sister of Silence w/partial-cum-completely bald!!!???

Hmmm, militant religious zealots with no sense of humour who make hairy legged head shaved feminists look like little girls with plaits, or the females of an alien race that would as soon as slit your throat as look at you. Those ogryn girls are starting to look mighty fine all of a sudden.

Wow. We so got off subject my bad
But still we need to think about this Eldar Women are COUGH* HOT * but still We are suppose to be talking about the subject. Lets see oh we covered all of it.

I think this thread should die, well we've discussed everything to do with the lost legions and beyond...

I agree with you but at least this was a great disscussion!
I will SAy that.
And plus i love talking about this stuff we should start a thread about the primarchs!

lets start a thread about the primarchs!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Going back on topic though...I really think that if they were to write anymore about the two missing legions is would be that one became an embodiment of chaos and fought the other and they wiped each other out...thats why in the audio book when Dorn is looking at the statues the thoughts are of 'could this have been a forewarning'.

It would kind of make sense...but then in one of the other stories Dorn wishes the two Legions were in the loyalist number...which kind of throws one off abit, as perhaps they're not beyond slavation otherwise why would the intellect of a primarch even ponder on such a thing? Yes I know the Sigillite puts him straight....but why even think of it if there isn't a little hope for them???

Oh so many questions...

Final Post. (I hope, that way get the last laugh)

Lost Primarch = Awesome
Sigmar = Awesome
Sigmar = Lost Primarch

Emperors Faithful wrote:Final Post. (I hope, that way get the last laugh)

Lost Primarch = Awesome
Sigmar = Awesome
Sigmar = Lost Primarch

Sorry, wrong.

Sigmar is definetly not a primarch.

*Big Middle Finger*
Yes he is! And no amount of logical reasoning is going to convince me otherwise! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!

Emperors Faithful wrote:*Big Middle Finger*
Yes he is! And no amount of logical reasoning is going to convince me otherwise! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!

Such behaviour could get me the idea to change the health of your finger in a way you do not want to know.....


Maybe remeber that the legions were all founded? Plus sigmar had no space marines.

Lol. Pwned.

Sigmar was never found. Hence the UNKOWN primarch.
Sigmar was awesome. Primarchs were awesome. Why do you deny sigmar was an awesome primarch?

Twin Tailed Comet: Pod/Capsule wiv baby innit.
Story of forging Empire: Almost EXACTLY like the stories of other primarchs on thier worlds.

SIGMAR = PRIMARCH! DO NOT DENY THEIR AWESOMENESS!!!

Emperors Faithful wrote:Sigmar was never found. Hence the UNKOWN primarch.
Sigmar was awesome. Primarchs were awesome. Why do you deny sigmar was an awesome primarch?

Twin Tailed Comet: Pod/Capsule wiv baby innit.
Story of forging Empire: Almost EXACTLY like the stories of other primarchs on thier worlds.

SIGMAR = PRIMARCH! DO NOT DENY THEIR AWESOMENESS!!!

Are you trying to say Tzintz/Zinch/Tszintch/whoever he is, threw him straight through into another dimension when Chaos whisked away the infant Primarchs

I think he is trying to say that.

Xav wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:If it was solely Imperium Vs soley Orksies. Imperium would pwn.

700,000 Space marines, and about 10 Billion Guard vs maybe i dont know alot of orks?

The campain would last for years, you cant fit that many orks onto a planet.

And awesome technology.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:*Big Middle Finger*
Yes he is! And no amount of logical reasoning is going to convince me otherwise! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!

Such behaviour could get me the idea to change the health of your finger in a way you do not want to know.....


Maybe remeber that the legions were all founded? Plus sigmar had no space marines.

Your just proving EF's point! If Sigmar was a lost primarch that was never found of course he wouldn't have some spehz marines! He would have a legion but he would never have found them. Mabye warhammer is in the "Storm of The Eperor's Wrath" warp storm or whatever it is.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Sigmar was never found. Hence the UNKOWN primarch.
Sigmar was awesome. Primarchs were awesome. Why do you deny sigmar was an awesome primarch?

Twin Tailed Comet: Pod/Capsule wiv baby innit.
Story of forging Empire: Almost EXACTLY like the stories of other primarchs on thier worlds.

SIGMAR = PRIMARCH! DO NOT DENY THEIR AWESOMENESS!!!

In the older WFB fluff, they never said, "Sigmar is a lost Primarch", but I think it was heavily implied. It's my understanding that they've recently retconned Sigmar's origin (I don't play WFB, and my knowledge of Signar is based on the First Edition of the WFRP game, which was from like 1990) that he was born of a woman, and changed some other details.

So, in 2009, I'd say that GW has made it clear that Sigmar is not a lost primarch. But, about 15-20 years ago, it was heavily implied that he was.

Don't you see?!? Fools!
The inquistion is just trying to cover everything up! Slowly, but surely, every single member of GW who knows the TRUTH is being killed off!

It's only a matter of time before the secret is lost forever!

(Speaking in to a mega phone) Alright everybody tell anyyone and everyone the truth before earth is bombed to a bare rock!

*point to sky*
It's too late...
*cue exterminatus*

deadratman wrote:I heard that Alpharius of the alpha legion had a twin named Omegon. Could this be an unknown primarch that was hiding in plain view?

Yes Alpharious did have a twin in Omegon, this was confirmed at the end of the Horus Heresy novel legion when the Alpha legion met with the xenos group called the Cabal. But theres no way of knowing for sure if the emperor was even aware of Omegon as this was a secret closely guarded by the legion. This is also the reason why people question whether or not Guillimen had actually killed Alpharious because Alpharious and Omegon were twins.

But more on topic lol, it seems unlikely that Dorn would mention wishing he had the help of a primarch that he had no idea even existed. It also seems unlikely that the emperor could cast out a primarch that he possibly wasnt even aware existed.

Fools, the primarchs aren't lost. They are obviously Chuck Norris and Bill Gates. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!


Oh, and Gulliman should never get of his lazy butt. Because then, he'll probably end up writing the little blue book of spehhs marheinz II, ripping apart the space-time continuem, opening another eye of terror and screwing mankind.

Chuck Norris of course...but Bill Gates?
Since when did ANY primarch deal with computers and businessmen?

Ferrus Mannus was in love with technology. He made his soldiers cut o thier hands. Or maybe they did cause they were like emo or something.
And Roboute Gulliman was strictly buissness. During The Scouring he would never stop on a planet to say "Hullo Governor!!" No he would go to planets that needed his "Help" and do a bunch of crap and leave with out a " Good day Governor"

...*facepalm*
I kind of meant, what Priamrch was into both computers and bussiness yet did feth all while fighting...

Pertubo? Loved technology and when he talked it was sorta like he was in a buissness meeting

...ladies and gentlemen...*facepalm*...that is all...
I give up. One cannot argue with that kind of logic. But even you have to admit that Bill Gates is certainly not Primarch material.

You see, his disguise is so brilliant even you did not notice him, Emperors so-called faithfull. But one day, he shall reveal his true form, and lead the believers on a holy crusade. Thus will Nintendo and Sony be smoted and Primarch Gates shall inherit the earth, with us his loyal nerd legion behind him .

In the Audio Book "The Lightning Tower" it is hinted at that they may have fallen to Chaos before they were found by ' the False Emperor' sorry I ment Emperor !!!!!

well considering sigmar is from warhammer this is 40k NOT FANTASY!!!!!!

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:You see, his disguise is so brilliant even you did not notice him, Emperors so-called faithfull. But one day, he shall reveal his true form, and lead the believers on a holy crusade. Thus will Nintendo and Sony be smoted and Primarch Gates shall inherit the earth, with us his loyal nerd legion behind him .

Until he becomes corrupted and his followers ride on chaos-mutated xboxes.

Kk you confused me. Big time, can we not go no about this type of disscussion talk about the two unknown legions not the primarchs. -.-

It would be safe to assume that if there are two unkown legions, then there are also two unkown primarchs. Wether they have been united or not is impossible to say.

Hopefully by the end of the Horus Heresy series (which could be a while still) we will know what at least one of the lost legions are/were.

but that is the point to make your own legion. And make it more customizabale.

i think that one the lost primarchs founded the blood ravens

Silver Skulls are listed in the rulebook as "Unknown Founding." Perhaps they are descendants of one of the unknown legions.

Don't know if this has been mentioned but Mechanicum has a brief mention of the two lost legions. Dorn is speaking to Malcador and comments on how he wished he had 15 legions on his side instead of 13 and Malcador basically tells him not to speak of them, they are lost to us.

So whatever happened to the two missing legions, it happened pre Horus Heresy.