I just tried to buy the above in GW store (Watford, UK) but it was not on the shelves. Upon asking the staff member said they were told by management to take DH codexes off the shelves as there is a rumour the new one is out soon?!? Seems a bit weird to me as BA codex is out shortly but no mention of new DH codex in WD etc, anyone have any ideas aboout this??

I've heard many romours about this. Its coming soon and its not going to be a combined 'dex as others have siad.
But i havent heard about it being taken off the shelves. . . .

Cant wait if its really true. I was going to collect inquistion fully but I heard new stuff was possibly coming out so I am waiting for then. Menawhile my chaos army is being made better.

Witch hunters are ok inho. But its the DH that need an update, the new deamon codex really screwed them over. as instability was taken out and many powers revolve around those.


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Witch hunters are ok imho. But its the DH that need an update, the new deamon codex really screwed them over. as instability was taken out and many powers revolve around those.

no, no real rumors. we basically have a hint as to what the next marine one is (ship based chapter, "winging" its way toward us, possibily dark angels) but no idea if the next one is actually a marine one.

Deamon Hunters arn't just marines (Grey Knights) They are the Ordo Mallleus too. Or does it count as a marine 'dex to GW?

no idea. there is no real info about them and the fact that they're generally left out of alot of supplements isn't a good sign (planetstrike, battlemissions, etc).

Sounds abit stupid of GW to combine WH and DH in one book, wouldn't they lose money ? unless they doubled the codex cost.

Yes they would and thats the only reason they arn't combining the two according to what i heard

So, no news.

And no rumour.

Just total speculation...

The only idea I have of why they are getting rid of the witch hunters and daemon hunters codex is so they can releases the ordo millitant ones for both grey knights and sisters and probable release a separate inquistion one with all three ordos.

That imo will ruin them and make it way over complicated.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:So, no news.

And no rumour.

Just total speculation...

I thought that was the point of this forum. It is not like there ever are any news or rumours here, just speculation. I was about to make a new thread `there could be alien life in a parallel universe where a being named Jervis Johnson and another going by the moniker HBMC are best friends'. Should I not?

VikingScott wrote:I've heard many romours about this. Its coming soon and its not going to be a combined 'dex as others have siad.
But i havent heard about it being taken off the shelves. . . .

how come you haven't heard about that? They've been off the GW site for a month or so now along with the 10 sister box of battle sisters

warboss wrote:no, no real rumors. we basically have a hint as to what the next marine one is (ship based chapter, "winging" its way toward us, possibily dark angels) but no idea if the next one is actually a marine one.

surely the black templars are more of a ship based chapter and in more need of an update than the DA.

Elric of Grans wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:So, no news.

And no rumour.

Just total speculation...

I thought that was the point of this forum. It is not like there ever are any news or rumours here, just speculation. I was about to make a new thread `there could be alien life in a parallel universe where a being named Jervis Johnson and another going by the moniker HBMC are best friends'. Should I not?

Well then feth it, lets have another chat about the Dark Eldar, Genestealer cults, LatD and the expected creation date of the plastic wraithguard then.

Does anyone know when the next bit of terrain is getting released?

Will they ever do a warlord titan in plastic?

And do make your thread. It sounds like it might generate more interest than this one can currently muster.


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Here's a 'zany' idea, why don't we let the person with some actual news start a thread.

It might alleviate the 'trawl 30 pages of wishlisting until you find a piece of news or actual rumour or picture' trend that seems to clutter the gak out of so many threads here.

I can easily see them combining the two codexes and making a strict organization chart.

Besides I would love to see what kind of psychic powers matt, robin, or phil can come up with for a chapter of marines that are all psykers.

Jaws of the Living Blood Lightning infused lance.. It has unlimited range and each enemy unit in its path takes D6 hits which they must pass an Init. test or be removed, if they pass they also take a S8 AP1 lance hit..

Kirasu wrote:Jaws of the Living Blood Lightning infused lance.. It has unlimited range and each enemy unit in its path takes D6 hits which they must pass an Init. test or be removed, if they pass they also take a S8 AP1 lance hit..

No seriously I think they should have some neat automatic powers similar to warlocks.

Maybe this will be the army to get the new plastic warhound titan someone once speculated on.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Maybe this will be the army to get the new plastic warhound titan someone once speculated on.

Nah, that's Codex Cadian Shock Troops.

And it'll be a multi-part Warhound/Fuzzybear pattern Titan.

What's wrong with all the other threads asking for DH news and rumours?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/283168.page

BTW, the German DH Codex is OOP for 3 years now, so what?

MGS wrote:So, no news.

And no rumour.

Just total speculation...

Wasn't there a recent thread by someone claiming to have seen early concept/miniatures for DH, WH and DE? It was from Warseer, IIRC. I think a few people rated the source as fairly credible...

I personally don't give a gak. Wanting information on something won't make it happen quicker.

Farmer wrote:Sounds abit stupid of GW to combine WH and DH in one book, wouldn't they lose money ? unless they doubled the codex cost.

How would they lose money?

They constantly release new codices as fast as they can. I don't see how combining them into one book would leave some kind of vacant codex release gap. Also there is so much redundancy between DH and WH codices that a well designed combined codex wouldn't be double the size of a regular codex.


My person opinion is that they should combine it. All of the units in it just seem to work so differently from a fluff perspective. They get their orders from the inquisition, they are more closely tied to terra than a space marine chapter which works independently for example.

If they were to be combined I think a good structure to go with would be, you choose a HQ (inquisitor xenos, hereticus, malleus etc, also canoness and greyknight captain) which lets you take other such units in the codex appropriate to that order.

A big question however is what will they decide to do about Allies, if that will remain in or not.

I'd be slightly annoyed if it was just DH (glorified Marine chapter) instead of either joint =][= codex or, even better, a non-Imperial 3E update.

But hey, at least they'd be taking care of an army that hasn't seen a new codex since 3E. Here's hoping for DE and Necrons on the soon side.

I was thinking of starting a DH army soon now that i hear there might be a new codex I don't know if i should wait or get the to codex just to have it. So many choices

Kroothawk wrote:

BTW, the German DH Codex is OOP for 3 years now, so what?

If I understand correctly it means the Germans will get their DH codex 3 years before the rest of us!

My God...the Germans really did make a time machine!

OUT OF A VOLKSWAGEN!

Well, at a gamesday last year, Phil Kelly said he was working on grey knights. Whatever that means, I have no idea. You can find that tidbit on warseer last year.

I wouldn't expect any news until after the Orc redo in May. Blood Angels aren't even out yet, so GW will make a concerted effort to focus marketing and hype on them. It's possible after blood angels we might find out for sure what's going on. But for now, there's going to be a deadzone for rumors.

Copy paste of what I wrote in the other thread :

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55212

25/02/2010
PAGK were removed from all GW sites except US, Canadian and Australian.

Was told the justicar and some other model was up for 10% off on the Oz site, if this is true or not I dont know.
I have not even able to confirm it myself, when I tried to order the price was infact increased by 10% but that may have been because I live in Finland.

Yes I know they can still be found in Fast Attack but when you click them it says No Longer Available.

From what I hear a new codex of some sort can be expected this year, if its true or not I dont know.
Rumours say end of summer-autumn and it being the next 40k codex after BA.

Personally I think june and july will be fantasy 8ed and new rulebooks for some armies. If we see a GK/Inquisition this year I would think it will come in August but thats just my guess.

Kroothawk wrote:What's wrong with all the other threads asking for DH news and rumours?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/283168.page

Albatross wrote:

MGS wrote:So, no news.
And no rumour.
Just total speculation...

Wasn't there a recent thread by someone claiming to have seen early concept/miniatures for DH, WH and DE?

Some people not only demand instant news&rumours on their favorite army when they feel like it, they also demand it in their own thread. Remember, if they would read the news&rumour forum, they wouldn't start threads like this.

But Dakkadakka moderation seems to tolerate this pointless thread spam, as can be seen by 2 active DH threads, one active WH thread and 2 active Chaos threads at the moment.

Here's some actual, factual confirmation from GW:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showpost.php?p=591748&postcount=70

And to quote it for those too lazy to click:

Originally Posted by Games Workshop
Hi there

Daemonhunters and Witchhunters are not being discontinued. The codexes and a number of products have been removed from the range as we are looking to do a new Inquisitorial codex at some point in the near future.

I would recommend keeping an eye on the website and in White Dwarf for developments on this product.

I hope this helps.

Cheers

they and dark eldar are going to end up just like squats .... we all know it in the back of our minds as it slowly consumes us into fear like the many tendrels of a venomthrope...

Brother SRM wrote:Here's some actual, factual confirmation from GW:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showpost.php?p=591748&postcount=70

And to quote it for those too lazy to click:

Originally Posted by Games Workshop
Hi there

Daemonhunters and Witchhunters are not being discontinued. The codexes and a number of products have been removed from the range as we are looking to do a new Inquisitorial codex at some point in the near future.

I would recommend keeping an eye on the website and in White Dwarf for developments on this product.

I hope this helps.

Cheers

Uh-huh. Some schmuck emails them, and GW, bloody kings of information control, let it slip that they're working on a new codex? I find that incredibly doubtful.

Not doubtful that they're working on it, just doubtful they actually sent that email.

Papaskittels wrote:they and dark eldar are going to end up just like squats .... we all know it in the back of our minds as it slowly consumes us into fear like the many tendrels of a venomthrope...

Man, I love it when people ignore the post I posted right before theirs! They're getting redone, and in the near future. No reason to get into such a tizzy.

i think that that post on heresy was fake becouse the GAMES WORKSHOP did not have a tm by it jkjkjkjkjk

but it is fake


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yes i read ure thing i just like getting yelled at for bringing the poor poor squats into this

Papaskittels wrote:they and dark eldar are going to end up just like squats .... we all know it in the back of our minds as it slowly consumes us into fear like the many tendrels of a venomthrope...

I think DE would get a PDF/WD codex before they ever squatted them. And I seriously doubt that they'd even consider squatting anything Imperial, especially with all the love =][='s been getting from Dark Heresy and now the Deathwatch RPG.

Hell, if I'm to start a third army, I'd definitely play an Inquisitorial force on fluff alone.

Inquisition is being revised, some new plastics will come with it as for any big release these days and assuming something doesn't cheese the deal the release should be in the not too distant future.

BrassScorpion wrote:Inquisition is being revised, some new plastics will come with it as for any big release these days and assuming something doesn't cheese the deal the release should be in the not too distant future.

Seems like an =][= release would be pretty freaking huge though, right? There's a desperate need for a lot of plastic in those lineups. Aren't they the only armies who still don't have plastic troops?

At the very least you'd need a plastic SoB and GK in power armor sets, not to mention Inquisitorial troopers. Combine that with, GK termies, the different SoB varieties, etc...

Thought: if they were to revamp it, do you think an Inquisition force would look more like Inquisitorial troopers augmented by troops from the Chambers Militant? For example, normally your troops choices would be, more or less, troopers, with SoB/GK squads in Elites. But depending on what kind of Inquisitor you take as an HQ, either GK or SoB or Deathwatch marines get moved to troops or something?

That way they'd play significantly different from Marine chapters.

This is what I found About the Sisters, a new Order and Special Character

Anpu42 wrote:This is what I found About the Sisters, a new Order and Special Character

Yay, immaturity and sexism distilled in a single post.

Besides, there's going to be like a billion more Special Characters in the book than just one one-eyed Nun.

bhsman wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:This is what I found About the Sisters, a new Order and Special Character

Yay, immaturity and sexism distilled in a single post.

You actualy got the basic point, the other was just to lighten the mood.

I like your idea Ostrakon. Personally I would play Ordos Xenos. Deathwatch freaking kick! However, having power-armoured and terminator-armoured marines all in elites seems a bit strange. Power-armoured marines are supposed to go hold objectives etc . . . still love the idea though =D

IMO it's more probable that it will be like the Daemons codex. Where you get one choice for each God in Troops, one in Elites, one in Heavy Support. I don't like this as much though, cos if you want to go all out Xenos, then it really limits the choices you can take. =[

Oshova

Papaskittels wrote:i think that that post on heresy was fake becouse the GAMES WORKSHOP did not have a tm by it jkjkjkjkjk

but it is fake


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yes i read ure thing i just like getting yelled at for bringing the poor poor squats into this

If you dont like what I do and claim its fake then could you please provide some proof? If you cant do that then fu** off.
I spend an hour or two each day searching for rumours and I call and email GW once every 2 weeks and ask pretty much the same thing. So far I have been told multiple times they are working on a new Inquisition codex of some sort and once been told by the guy I talked to that he does not know.
Instead of being an ass you could email GW yourself and ask once a week over a period of 1-2 months and then draw your own conclusions. Just dont come on here and talk gak about something you dont know anything about.

Anyways, I dont really care what people think, I compile the info so its easy to read and to save space. If you havent noticed my thread has become rather big with all the information I have gathered over the last 4 months, Im not sure how large a single post is allowed to be so I cut out all the worthless stuff to make it easier to read what you actually might want to read.

But here, just for you, because youre so high and mighty you need actual proof.



I guess I should ask GW for a written contract from now on for every email they send me, or maybe I should use a camcorder to record me typing the email to them and then record when I get the actual reply and post that. Im sure people would love to sit and watch 5minutes of me typing and then a second or two to read the reply from GW... or I could keep doing it like I am now, copy paste what they write me leaving out the name of the sender to protect them from GW authority.
If you still think its fake then I invite you to come visit me so you can see the frickin email with your own eyes.

It's also entirely possibly that the web orders guy was making stuff up, as to be honest it's been demonstrated that they don't know the rules, much less GW's advance plans.

I have no idea what my employer is planning to do in the next year beyond broad plans, and I don't believe half of those. I'm an IT Mole and don't need that info, so I don't get it. The UK Web orders staff doesn't need to know releases beyond the window GW announces stuff in, so...

Threatening to buy Warmachine stuff was a nice touch. I agree we can't take anything for absolute certainty at the moment (barring an email from GW, of course), but I wouldn't discount that email just yet.

Anpu42 wrote:You actualy got the basic point, the other was just to lighten the mood.

So what are you actually saying, that you intentionally made a terrible joke or that you are a terrible poster?

That may be true, but that doesnt mean the info I got is fake. It might be inaccurate, or guesswork from the guy at GW but that still doesnt mean its FAKE.

Fake suggests I made it up, that the info I pasted was something I made up. That to me is a big insult to the work Ive put into my thread.

My guess is the employees hear rumours around the office and can make guesses as to whats next, or even hear something from the guys upstairs. Who knows, my point is that what was written to me may or may not be true, but it sure as hell isnt FAKE.

lol, if you're contacting them that often, they could possibly tell you that just to stop you for a few weeks/months and get some peace. i'm sure they're working on every codex except IG, Nid, SW, and BA; the question isn't if they're working on it but rather when it'll actually come out.

Did you notice that there's a notice at the bottom of that e-mail stating that it and all info contained within are copywrite of GW and should not be disclosed?

RustyKnight wrote:Did you notice that there's a notice at the bottom of that e-mail stating that it and all info contained within are copywrite of GW and should not be disclosed?

I thought that was pretty funny, myself.

But it certainly verifies that Web Orders Guy is pointing to an incoming Inquisition codex.

The question now is, of course, does Web Orders Guy know his gak?

It is solely for the intended recipient(s), well I write on behalf of all the people who read my forum posts on the forums I visit so the information in the letters are meant for them

Thats my response to that

warboss wrote:lol, if you're contacting them that often, they could possibly tell you that just to stop you for a few weeks/months and get some peace. i'm sure they're working on every codex except IG, Nid, SW, and BA; the question isn't if they're working on it but rather when it'll actually come out.

Yeah, once every 2 weeks is such a hard deal for them to handle. Its practically harassment isnt it to talk to them on the phone for 30seconds every 2 weeks or answering an email every 2 weeks. Im sure the GW staff will need counselling after all that harassment

Meh, I do what I can to get some information. It all depends on who you get to talk to, some people know stuff, some people think they know stuff and others dont know stuff.
I cant exactly call or mail them and ask to speak to every single person who works there about what they think GW are doing, that would just be silly

To be honest, I was looking at making a Sisters army just this week and the Codex is pretty good, just needs some updates for 5th Ed, and I liked the army list build I came up with quite a bit. That being said, I would never spend as much as I estimated it would cost, so I would love a redo of the model line to get loads o' plastic Sisters and Inquisitional Stormtroopers out there. A cheaper Exorcist wouldn't break my heart either. As it is, though, with the book off the shelves, loads of speculation on a redo, and no desire to shatter my bank account on an army that might suddenly not operate in the same way, I'll wait for actual news/rumors and hopefully a new release in the next 12 months. It's not like I don't have a ****load of orks to paint in the interim.

Skarboy wrote:To be honest, I was looking at making a Sisters army just this week and the Codex is pretty good, just needs some updates for 5th Ed, and I liked the army list build I came up with quite a bit. That being said, I would never spend as much as I estimated it would cost, so I would love a redo of the model line to get loads o' plastic Sisters and Inquisitional Stormtroopers out there. A cheaper Exorcist wouldn't break my heart either. As it is, though, with the book off the shelves, loads of speculation on a redo, and no desire to shatter my bank account on an army that might suddenly not operate in the same way, I'll wait for actual news/rumors and hopefully a new release in the next 12 months. It's not like I don't have a ****load of orks to paint in the interim.

Eh, I flipped through it and was rather unimpressed. They are in need of an update, probably as much as Crons and DE. There's really no excuse to have 50 point rhinos anymore.

Ostrakon all you need to do is get your mates to play with Forge World updates. They have all the =][= vehicles at the new prices, with all the proper upgrades etc. =]

Also it's free to download off the Forge World site =D

Oshova

Oshova wrote:Ostrakon all you need to do is get your mates to play with Forge World updates. They have all the =][= vehicles at the new prices, with all the proper upgrades etc. =]

Also it's free to download off the Forge World site =D

Oshova

I might do that, if I actually knew anyone who played SoB. My LGS is pretty much all SM and Tau.

All SM and Tau? There's 1 other tau player at my LGS.

agnosto wrote:All SM and Tau? There's 1 other tau player at my LGS.

There are a lot of IG players, but they seem to play Apoc exclusively. Each one of them must have like 15 LRs.

Probably been said already (too lazy to check), but why would the GW store pull off the shelves a book that is still 'current', because there are rumours of a new one?

Seems a bit stupid to me, they should want to sell both.

I've been to place where they have multiple edition of books side by side... (not GW stores)

Witch Hunters had a few of the odd "Why would you EVER take this?" options that a lot of the 3rd/4th Codices had. For example, Sarissas (The SoB version being essentially a big bayonet for a Boltgun) were a neat option, but who gives a character a boltgun and spends points on a melee upgrade for it?

It might have been a neat option if it was available to the rank and file, but as wargear...

Other oddball stuff included the bolter-stake crossbow. Neat idea, but ambiguously defined and of negligible value.

Ideally, I'd break the 'Power Armor = 3+' rule and knock them to a 4+ save and repoint everything. Space marine armor should be better (and I'm not a Space Marine fan!) since it's definitely bulkier looking. The Sisters should use numbers and their own weird stuff (and faith in the emperor, of course).

Balance wrote:Witch Hunters had a few of the odd "Why would you EVER take this?" options that a lot of the 3rd/4th Codices had. For example, Sarissas (The SoB version being essentially a big bayonet for a Boltgun) were a neat option, but who gives a character a boltgun and spends points on a melee upgrade for it?

It might have been a neat option if it was available to the rank and file, but as wargear...

Other oddball stuff included the bolter-stake crossbow. Neat idea, but ambiguously defined and of negligible value.

Ideally, I'd break the 'Power Armor = 3+' rule and knock them to a 4+ save and repoint everything. Space marine armor should be better (and I'm not a Space Marine fan!) since it's definitely bulkier looking. The Sisters should use numbers and their own weird stuff (and faith in the emperor, of course).

I think it would be reasonable for Sister to be 4+/5++ due to their faith powers.

Grimstonefire wrote:Probably been said already (too lazy to check), but why would the GW store pull off the shelves a book that is still 'current', because there are rumours of a new one?

Seems a bit stupid to me, they should want to sell both.

I've been to place where they have multiple edition of books side by side... (not GW stores)

Removing a codex from the online store usually preempts it being replaced by a newer ruleset. See: Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, Tyranids...

Probably been said already (too lazy to check), but why would the GW store pull off the shelves a book that is still 'current', because there are rumours of a new one? Seems a bit stupid to me, they should want to sell both.

GW pulls the older book months ahead of replacing it. It's not stupid, it allows them to sell off the old stock and then be done with it instead of having a pile of obsolete books when the replacement is released. This practice also protects their customers from buying a book just a few days or weeks before it is obsolete. Be grateful they do this now, they were not always so careful in the early days of the Warhammer hobby.

This doesn't always happen though. GW Oxford Street still had the old Skaven book on sale a month before the release of the new one. I remember thinking it was a bit cheeky...

We didn't say anything about brick and mortar stores, though.

Sadly, sometimes if stores have copies on their shelves they still sell them a little too close to the release of their replacement to be good for long-term business. Good managers won't sell them because it will just anger the customer when they find out they bought a book just days or a few weeks from obsolescence and it's not very good for customer retention to do that, but these things do happen occasionally.

More on topic, it's ridiculous to think that GW has discontinued two popular model ranges. Granted, they haven't sold as well as they might the past few years, but that's largely because of the age of their army books and the expensiveness of the all-metal model ranges. All that's about to be corrected.

BrassScorpion wrote:Sadly, sometimes if stores have copies on their shelves they still sell them a little too close to the release of their replacement to be good for long-term business. Good managers won't sell them because it will just anger the customer when they find out they bought a book just days or a few weeks from obsolescence and it's not very good for customer retention to do that, but these things do happen occasionally.

More on topic, it's ridiculous to think that GW has discontinued two popular model ranges. Granted, they haven't sold as well as they might the past few years, but that's largely because of the age of their army books and the expensiveness of the all-metal model ranges. All that's about to be corrected.

I dunno about 'popular' though. I've never met an actual DH/WH player or painter for that matter.

They have a strong niche following and the models look good; they're just fixed-pose metals that are hard to personalize. Plastic kits would go a long way towards making the army more mainstream by making it cheaper and by allowing much snazzier conversion opportunities.

Ostrakon wrote:Eh, I flipped through it and was rather unimpressed. They are in need of an update, probably as much as Crons and DE. There's really no excuse to have 50 point rhinos anymore.

They need an update for sure, but I don't want to lose the faith powers, ability to field crapload of Immolators as a 65-point troop transport, and so on. There's plenty to like in there as well. They are a niche army, they shouldn't necessarily bowl you over like some of the other armies, but they are VERY competitive, even as is.

Ostrakon wrote:I dunno about 'popular' though. I've never met an actual DH/WH player or painter for that matter.

That's because us DH/WH players - who are all Casual Gamers - don't mix with the lower folk. We're too busy enjoying our casual games from atop our glorious mountain of ivory.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:I dunno about 'popular' though. I've never met an actual DH/WH player or painter for that matter.

That's because us DH/WH players - who are all Casual Gamers - don't mix with the lower folk. We're too busy enjoying our casual games from atop our glorious mountain of ivory.

Nonsense, I'm a casual player too. I mean, jeez, I play freakin' Necrons. And it's not like my LGS isn't filled with casual gamers anyway, they're always playing Apoc, which as far as I can tell as far from competitive as it gets.

You're only a casual player if the DCGM says you are.

And they say you're not. They say you secretly harbour intentions of tournament play.

We will pray for you.

H.B.M.C. wrote:You're only a casual player if the DCGM says you are.

And they say you're not. They say you secretly harbour intentions of tournament play.

We will pray for you.

I can't casually attend tournaments with no intention of winning?

WHY WAS I NOT INFORMED?!

Entering a tournament with no intention of winning is a very... silly... thing to do.

We will pray for that also.

[quote=OstrakonI dunno about 'popular' though. I've never met an actual DH/WH player or painter for that matter.

I dont think GW would change sister save from 3+ to 4+ or whatever. Sisters of Battle wear power armour and power armour is a 3+ save. One could argue SM armour is bulkier because the soldiers themselves are gene enhanced.

SoB armour looks like it does because of GW sculpting them that way nearly 20years ago. Afaik they have the same look now that they had back in 2ed.

I dont think they will wear the combat corset when they are remade but who knows. Who are we to say what material the armour is made of? You also have to look at the stats for them. They have the standard human stats of T3 while sm have T4.
Nerdish voice : Bush thash becaush they are ghene enhansched.
Well, it does make the SM tougher to kill if only slightly but that doesnt nullify the fact that both wear power armour.

Ive heard allot of people complain about the combat corset, that it makes them look like whores and that its sexists etc etc etc.
Technically you could chop of the heads of SM and replace them with Sister heads but then SM players would complain that they arnt as tough as SM and that the look isnt right, this would be true because they arnt.

We also have to remember that its a game and GW will make what they believe will sell the most models. In a real world application there would be no boobcups on the sister armour, it would look the same as male armour which it also does. But in 40K where it seems looks are more important than practicality they dont follow the normal rules of common sense.
Im sure wearing all those purity seals and scrolls really helps from a combat perspective. It might scare the opponent and raise the moral of the troops and wearer but thats about it.

Now lets take a look at it from a gaming point of view.
What would happen if the Sisters of Battle were reduced to a 4+ or even 5+ armour save. First of why the hell would an elite group of warriors who represent one of the largest and most important ordos of the imperium have the same armour as a lowly Imperial Guard soldier?
5+ armour save would be slowed and the rules changes to make up for it would have to be really substantial. Sisters are a 12-24" ranged combat army, Id sure love to see you have a good time standing out in the open with a 5+ armour save because you have to get within 12" of the enemy to be effective...
But Acts of Faith could offset that, no it would not unless they kept the current rules for how many you can use and changed them to IG orders. This however would be really silly and I will explain why.

You have 10 Battle Sisters in a rhino heading across the board. Your rhino gets destroyed half way and you are now 24" away from the opponent, lets say IG bunkered down in terrain.
You can now take potshots at them or move into the 12" golden range that is where Sisters do their battles.
The problem is your 10 sisters will face the First rank, second rank fire next turn and you are likely to lose about 5 or more sisters because of a crappy 5+ armour save.
So how would GW balance this? With Acts of Faith you say.
They would have to add some new AoF for sure because the current ones wouldnt help one bit.
The current ones give +2S but attack at I1, +2I, AP1 bolters on 6s to wound or power weapon attacks on 6s, Inv save equal to armour save (yeah, a 5+Inv save would really help) and finaly the fearless faith.
Which one of these would help foot slogging sisters to get within the 12" range which is where sisters need to be to be effective and help them stay alive at that range?
There would have to be some new acts of faith that help with that. There are 3 ways with the current rules you can go.
AoF of armour, you gain a better armour save but this would be pointless since why have this if you could just leave the armour rating where it was? So this isnt valid.
AoF of Feel no Pain, I could accept this. 5+ armour save plus a 3+FnP save. Heck, they would be better than they are right now. But then people would scream OP.
AoF of cover, you get a cover save of 3-4+. I guess the sisters would have smoke launchers in their boobcups or something or their faith in the emperor gives them bad gas and that provides the cover save. Maybe if they were Sisters of Nurgle...

Another problem would be point cost, are you telling me its fair to pay 11pt for a sister with a 4-5+ save just because she has acts of faith? With the current AoF the price would have to be similar to the price of IG infantry. So about 6pt per sister because they have a Bolter.
The only way the price could stay the same would be if they received some new AoF that helped them survive to and at the 12" range. Only viable one I see would be FnP faith. Rest wouldnt make sense.
So with every single group of footsloggers or sisters who have disembarked you would have to do AoF of FnP just to be able to survive at the 12" range. Staying at 12" range means you are within range of the enemy flamers which happens to be AP5 with heavy flamer at AP4. This means you would also have to use Inv save AoF.

With the current rules you receive 1 Faith Point per veteran sister superior, celestian squad and seraphim squad and HQ Palatine and +2 for a Canoness. You also get the same amount when the faithful character dies.
At 1000pt you are lucky if you have 5FP, at 1500 around 7FP. So every enemy shooting phase and probably assault phase as well I would have to spend 2 FP per squad I own just to be able to keep them alive at the 12" range. This would be slowed so Faith would have to become morale checks instead. Unless they made every faithful char give 5FP... Ok, I have 36FP left, now I used this and that and have 27FP left...

So every shooting phase I would have to do atleast 2 AoF for every squad just to be able to keep them alive and ontop of that I would have to do more AoF to get the bonuses to combat some of them give.

Changing SoB armour to 4-5+ save would be slowed, they would have to change the way sisters play completely.
Its the same thing as telling an IG player they have to get within 24" of the enemy to be able to attack at all.
Sisters of Battle only have 2 long range weapons, Hvy Bolter and the Exorcists tank.

You tell an IG player the only weapons he is allowed to use are max 12 Hvy bolters but they count as Heavy Support so he isnt allowed any tanks. Or he can take 12 Missile launchers that can only fire krak missiles with AP1 but they also count as Heavy Support, he can mix them in groups of 4 for each HS choise, so 4Hvy bolters and 8 missile launchers or however he can have 4 of the same weapon in each group.
Then all his troops gets Bolters instead of lasguns, he can also bring a flamer or two and melta guns as well.
But this is all he is allowed to bring. He still gets to use is Orders (which are better than AoF).

Im pretty sure hed tell you you are insane but this is basically what you are saying should happen to the Sisters of Battle.

Before you say something stupid like change their armour try playing them and actually winning with them vs a 5ed army. Then think about what your proposed change would do to the army and the way they play.
SoB are not a gunline army, they are not a CC army, they are a 12" army. They need their armour and the AoF just to be able to stay alive at that range.

Pfft, rant over...

Edit : Before you whine too much about what I wrote try to understand what Im saying. Also 12" is within flamer range, if you are 12" away from me I can move 6" and burn you to a crisp in my turn.

MadCowCrazy, i think you're the one who suggested 5+ armor... So, as I don't remember anyone saying that, a big chunk of your post is irrelevant.

(I did see a suggestion to give them a 4+/5+ invulnerable, which is completely different.)

The idea of the 4+ is to make the stats fit the models better. 4+ would allow the base SoB to be a bit cheaper, and differentiate them from Space Marines more. It's still better armor than the majority of Guardsmen, just not as good as the SM.

Ah, well... Off to see if I can get some of the new drones

I just remembered that a few months before the guardsrelease there was a lot of talk about guards with greatcoats (alá Death corps) and stuff. Might it be possible that would be released as WH/DH guard allies? Just a thought that poped up when I was reading this thread. My heart says nice, my brain says don´t think so. It would be almost like if GW would start a new guards line.

CptM Mograin wrote: I just remembered that a few months before the guardsrelease there was a lot of talk about guards with greatcoats (alá Death corps) and stuff. Might it be possible that would be released as WH/DH guard allies? Just a thought that poped up when I was reading this thread. My heart says nice, my brain says don´t think so. It would be almost like if GW would start a new guards line.

They could, but Guards with Greatcoats were rumored since before the current plastic Cadians, so I'm skeptical...

Yeah me too, but it would be interesting.

Balance wrote:MadCowCrazy, i think you're the one who suggested 5+ armor... So, as I don't remember anyone saying that, a big chunk of your post is irrelevant.

I think he was referring to this post here:

Ostrakon wrote:I think it would be reasonable for Sister to be 4+/5++ due to their faith powers.

WH and DE are the only armies in this game that have really appealed to me, WH specifically, and I feel like I've sold of body parts to be able to afford them all. If they don't get a viable 5th ed upgrade or get "squatted" I can honestly say it'll kill all of my love for this game. :(

Oh and whoever said something about 65 point immolators...its a rhino chasis, when our rhinos drop to 35...immolator drops to 50...

Looking at the detail on the new blood angel plastics I can see grey knight plastics being a real possibility.

Papaskittels wrote:they and dark eldar are going to end up just like squats .... we all know it in the back of our minds as it slowly consumes us into fear like the many tendrels of a venomthrope...

Given the fact that Dark Eldar have sections in Planetstrike and Battle Missions, and that there are strong rumors floating about them being the next release, and given how integral the Inquisition is to the 40K mythos, saying they will be squated means you are either a troll or a moron. I'm willing to bet you're a bit of both, or a trollon.

More on topic, it's ridiculous to think that GW has discontinued two popular model ranges. Granted, they haven't sold as well as they might the past few years, but that's largely because of the age of their army books and the expensiveness of the all-metal model ranges.

I don't think it's that ridiculous. GW doesn't care why an army isn't selling as much, all they know is that it isn't selling and they have to do something about that.

Dropping the line altogether (as opposed to breathing new life into them with, say, a new book and minis which almost always works [except for Chaos but that was GW's screw up]) is not out of the realm of possibility seeing as how they've done it before.

It was done before because space dwarves was a goofy concept, and they played identical to the Imperial Guard. In fact, there are still some squat armies out there that use IG rules. They are just another variant of human.

Dark Eldar cannot be scrapped because they got segments in both Planetstrike and Battle Missions.

Inquisitorial forces cannot be scrapped because that would be tantamount to them scrapping Chaos and the idea of the Emperor. It's just not happening. It's core to the 40k mythos.

Terminus wrote:It was done before because space dwarves was a goofy concept, and they played identical to the Imperial Guard. In fact, there are still some squat armies out there that use IG rules. They are just another variant of human.

As concepts go, Dwarves in Space are no goofier than Elves in Space, Knights in Space, Dark Elves in Space, Vikings in Space, Orcs in Space, Cockroaches in Space, Dolphins in Space, Humans in Space, Vampire Knights in Space, Ogres in Space, Knights in Different Coloured Armour in Space, Halflings in Space, Vampires in Space or Attack of the Terminator.....

The problem was insufficient development of the concept, and the handing off of key elements of the standard Dwarf archetype to the Space Wolves (the Viking tendencies, for those who are interested). Dwarves in Space were certainly a lot more distinct in Epic, for instance, thanks to their unique war machines - I'd love to see a 40k-scale Iron Eagle Gyrocopter, in plastic, roughly the size of the Valkyrie.....

Just for the record: Current rumours supported by credible posters say the following:

1.) Both Grey Knights and Sororitas will get a new Codex EACH (not just one Inquisition Codex), both are currently worked on
2.) All Grey Knight models got a resculpt, many have been spotted by insiders. Standard GKs of course in plastic (Terminators?).
3.) Grey Knights seem to be the autumn SM Codex release. A Storm Raven release is part of that.

Less confirmed is the rumour, that both Codices do not include Inquisition or at least concentrate on non-Inquisition stuff, turning to Ecclesia in the case of Sororitas and that Inquisition will be part of separate rules (supplement? WD?). Still this rumour makes sense to me.

Edit: Some people claim that GW confirmed on GD Italy that GK will be the next Codex after Blood Angels.

Hurray for Grey Knights!

The only downside is that it will invalidate the Daemonhunter codex, so we will be left without a decent Inquisitor to induct. My guard will be screwed on the psychic front, or I'll have to take the very sub-par Witch Hunter Inquisitor. :(

Why oh why did they not give us an in-codex psychic hood? Argh!

Yay for GW invalidating another one of my armies.

Can GW make a final decision on whether to dump Black Templars altogether and then we can be 3 for 3!

Dump a Space Marine army? NEVER. If anything they'll be filling in the holes left by the Inquisition, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Tau, and everything else they don't like/are too lazy to update with moar Space Marines!

I think we should have a "Will X be dumped?"-thread-moratorium from the moment when it is confirmed to be the next Codex, really!

Kroothawk wrote:2.) All Grey Knight models got a resculpt, many have been spotted by insiders. Standard GKs of course in plastic (Terminators?).

Where did that one come from? Stickmonkey?

My greatest worry is that GW will go crazy with the new designs, like with the Blood Angels. "Suffer not the lack of ornaments, decorations and gizmos to live".

Terminus wrote:Hurray for Grey Knights!

The only downside is that it will invalidate the Daemonhunter codex, so we will be left without a decent Inquisitor to induct. My guard will be screwed on the psychic front, or I'll have to take the very sub-par Witch Hunter Inquisitor. :(

Why oh why did they not give us an in-codex psychic hood? Argh!

because they don't want you to be an anti psycher army? and want you to absorb the damage through strength in numbers?


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Kroothawk wrote:Just for the record: Current rumours supported by credible posters say the following:

1.) Both Grey Knights and Sororitas will get a new Codex EACH (not just one Inquisition Codex), both are currently worked on
2.) All Grey Knight models got a resculpt, many have been spotted by insiders. Standard GKs of course in plastic (Terminators?).
3.) Grey Knights seem to be the autumn SM Codex release. A Storm Raven release is part of that.

Less confirmed is the rumour, that both Codices do not include Inquisition or at least concentrate on non-Inquisition stuff, turning to Ecclesia in the case of Sororitas and that Inquisition will be part of separate rules (supplement? WD?). Still this rumour makes sense to me.

Edit: Some people claim that GW confirmed on GD Italy that GK will be the next Codex after Blood Angels.

Not at GD Italy, but rather on an italian forum, from the italian GW events manager. Post was on Warseer, posted by Erikthered.

On Power Armoured SoB. Power armour has always given a 3+ save, because of how tough it is. A Space Marine is bigger than a Sister because a Space Marine has been genetically engineered to be more muscley. That doesn't change how the armour works, just that it needs to be bigger to accommodate the larger body of the Space Marine. This is taken into account by worse stats elsewhere (Toughness and Strength 3 compared to 4)

I think that a joint codex would be better, as it would pull together =][= players, allow cooler looking armies, and cut down on shelf-space in stores. Something GW are always looking for.

Oshova

Of course, there's always that oft-forgotten fact that Space Marines get the black carapace implant in order to interface with the power armor, and the immaturity of this implant is the reason Space Marine scouts cannot wear power armor.

But SoBs get to ignore this because they're hot nuns with guns, I guess. I'm definitely interested in a new SoB army, but I'll be sad if they lose to combat corsets. The original metal models are still some of the best sculpts released by GW in the last 20 years. Jes Goodwin is unmatched. That's why I'm fearful about the Dark Eldar release, they may be just too purty for me to resist.

That's true. But it's not mentioned anywhere whether Sisters get this implant. It's unlikely, but you never know.

And I really hope they're not too purdy. I already have over 3000 points. And that's more than enough for me lol

Oshova

"Power armour has always given a 3+ save, because of how tough it is." seems like a tautology to me. That assumes all Power Armor is the same, much like saying all cars go the same speed or all computers cost the same.

If the system was finer grained, I'd at least make SoB power armor a 3.5 to the Space Marine's 3. It's clearly not as bulky.

The usual fluff is that Space Marine Power Armor requires the black carapace, but not all power armor is Space Marine power armor. Lots of big cheeses have access to power armor, including Inquisitors and of course the Sisters, but it's a different model. Even the Inquisitors in Space Marine style Power Armor presumably use a different model that uses cruder control interfaces. Space Marines probably have much better fine control over the armor, while SoB and Inquisitors need to be much more careful.

Another difference is probably sensor suites. SoBs seem even less likely than SM to wear helmets. Presumably, they also have less sensors and perhaps less 'comfort items.' (We never hear about SM or anyone else stopping to take a wee, for example.)

I didn't realise that Marines needed the toilet . . . They stay in those suits for weeks during war . . . Eww? lol

But yes it does make sense that others should face a penalty to using their Power Armour compared to SM . . . But IMHO SM should always have been Strength and Toughness 5. But there you go =p

Oshova

SOB armor has always looked to me to be closer to 4+ like kasrkin rather than 3+. as stated above, marines endure pain and cybernetic surgery to properly interface with their armor... and the nuns just have to... well do nothing. i hope they go down to 4+ (added variety for imperials if there is a 3+ standard army, a 4+ standard army, and a 5+ standard army with mixed stats inbetween) with a heavier 3+ devastator nun variant. really, i mean, come on... does it look like nun should get the same save as the marine?

Quality doesn't have to equal bulk, warboss.

I wouldn't change SoB armor to 4+ or anything of the sort. Remember that a 5+ armor save represents both the Cadian flak armor and a bunch of angry Rambos with naught but wife beaters and abs for protection. Leave power armor alone.

Dysartes wrote:Quality doesn't have to equal bulk, warboss.

right... because marines are equiped with the bulky, inefficient armor in the imperium? oh wait, they're not... they get the best of the best according to the fluff yet somehow the thin leather corsets of a nun can equal at 1/8 the thickness and 1/10 the weight.


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Brother SRM wrote:I wouldn't change SoB armor to 4+ or anything of the sort. Remember that a 5+ armor save represents both the Cadian flak armor and a bunch of angry Rambos with naught but wife beaters and abs for protection. Leave power armor alone.

this edition it does. in the previous codex, they got a 6+ wifebeater tshirt save. either way, the inaccurate depiction of catachan "armor" doesn't have much bearing on the discussion of an inaccurate depiction of sob "armor". i actually like it from a modelling perspective when gw makes a visual difference between the saves. 2+ should look different in size and protection from 3+ from 4+ etc. if you look at a kasrkin next to a cadian guardsmen, you can easily see the difference. either way, it's not like my opinion suddenly magicaly appears in the next SOB codex.

yeah,
4+ makes sense.
Add in their faith and I can easily see it being 4++.

Panic...

They aren't ever going to change the armor save of Sisters, no use arguing it.

If they don't mix the codices they need to keep allies abailable so I can make my Inquisitorial army and not be a sad panda. As for the armor save since the sisters are physically smaller (hence T3) they allot for the denser power armor to be smaller in size as well. The marines don't go under the knife to get power armor. They go through it to be the super soldiers with more strength and toughness than a mere human can achieve. Those stats are there to represent the person in the armor while the armor stat is there to represent *gasp* the armors ability to take a hit. If you want to make sisters 4+ saves for logic reasons I want BS4 or 5 standard instead of acute senses for the tau battlesuits "supior" sensor capabilites.

warboss wrote:

Dysartes wrote:Quality doesn't have to equal bulk, warboss.

right... because marines are equiped with the bulky, inefficient armor in the imperium? oh wait, they're not... they get the best of the best according to the fluff yet somehow the thin leather corsets of a nun can equal at 1/8 the thickness and 1/10 the weight.

They don't get the best of the best. They get quality stuff, but their budgets are nothing compared to the coffers of the Ecclesiarchy or Inquisition. They could buy and sell an entire Space Marine chapter with one week's revenue.

By the way, the Sister in that comparison shot is damn foxy.

It's not leather it's adamantium . . . But they're both made of cow skin right? . . . Ok now I just want to make an adamantium cow . . . but I digress

Also, the best of the best is a Land Raider surely . . . But really Terminator armour. So why don't they just equip every space marine with Terminator armour!?

Furthermore, SM suits of power armour are millenia old in some cases. They're relics along with every other piece of equipment. Yes new stuff is made, but the majority is handed down from one SM to the next. They aren't allowed personal possessions. Only those borrowed from the chapter for the use of their job.

And Terminus I second that . . . But don't tell it to her face, or you might not live to see the light of day again =p

Oshova

It'd be worth it.

Sigh...

If they made Sisters 4+ then they would have to get some really awesome buffs. In what form who knows, maybe every sister squad could get a Sister Hospitaller which give a 3+ FnP, that would make sense.

The price of a sister with a 4+ save would also be reduced to somewhere around 8 points. If they stayed at 11pt then they would also get all the grenades, frag, krak, defensive etc and bolt pistol as well. Same treatment SM got pretty much. Then again sisters have no read use of frag because they are not a CC army.

So keeping in line with the 12" army I could see them get defensive grenades, sister hospitaller with 3+ FnP and a lower points cost. It would mean allot more sisters on the table which in turn would mean allot more Ap1 bolter shots.

If Sisters get 4+ instead of 3+, could someone explain then what the powerpack on the back is for?

Thanks for bringing a touch of class to the thread Terminus.

... and thanks for discussing wanted rules changes for the Witch Hunter Codex in a news&rumour thread about Grey Knights.

If Sisters go down to a 4+ save they should get T4 like they had in 2nd edition.

BrookM wrote:If Sisters get 4+ instead of 3+, could someone explain then what the powerpack on the back is for?

It's still power armor, just not as heavy as that worn by the Space Marines.

Presumably they are equipped with helmets, even if they rarely wear them, so it's environmental controls, possibly commo, etc.

The main reason I think this would be an interesting avenue is that it gives them a different niche from the Space Marines and the Imperial Guard.

Thus eliminating the need for say, Inquisitorial Storm Troopers as well?

Balance wrote:

It's still power armor, just not as heavy as that worn by the Space Marines.

Presumably they are equipped with helmets, even if they rarely wear them, so it's environmental controls, possibly commo, etc.

The main reason I think this would be an interesting avenue is that it gives them a different niche from the Space Marines and the Imperial Guard.

Sisters play very differently than Space Marines right now. That 3+ save is not that big of a deal. Sisters have to soak a lot more wounds than a comparable number of space marines. They already have a different niche than Space Marines.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Thanks for bringing a touch of class to the thread Terminus.

What can I say? That's what I do.

Oh, and quoted by the way, completely out of context of course. That's also what I do.

BrookM wrote:Thus eliminating the need for say, Inquisitorial Storm Troopers as well?

No, you see Storm Troopers would go to a 5+, and inducted Guard would go to a 6+ and,

This whole discussion is stupid. Sisters will keep 3+ since they have power armor. They'll probably go down a few points and their acts of faith will be rejiggered. They'll probably stay T3, which would be nice. T3 and 3+ is a distinct profile, and doesn't quite fit into either GEQ or MEQ. I'd like it kept that way.

Kroothawk wrote:Less confirmed is the rumour, that both Codices do not include Inquisition or at least concentrate on non-Inquisition stuff, turning to Ecclesia in the case of Sororitas and that Inquisition will be part of separate rules (supplement? WD?). Still this rumour makes sense to me.

This was the really interesting talk in that conversation, IMO. An "allies" supplement/codex -- if done well -- could be a great, great release.

Imagine Inquisition for Imperials...LatD for CSMs...GCults for Tyranids... Huge potential there, and it'd be a bit of a bone to throw to vets.

right... because marines are equiped with the bulky, inefficient armor in the imperium? oh wait, they're not... they get the best of the best according to the fluff yet somehow the thin leather corsets of a nun can equal at 1/8 the thickness and 1/10 the weight.

lol
Repentia, a bunch of nekkid nuns, get equal saves to heavily armed carapace stormtroopers for crying out.

rocklord2004 wrote:I want BS4 or 5 standard instead of acute senses for the tau battlesuits "supior" sensor capabilites.

Those stinkin bluies have big ol' bug eyes and STILL always seem to be squinting. I'm pretty sure they are nearly blind in comparison to humans and their robotech helmets are bringing them up to bs3/bs4. Mind you this is senseless biggotry and I am citing nothing...

MadCowCrazy wrote:If they made Sisters 4+ then they would have to get some really awesome buffs.

As somone pointed out earlier, faith would probably be able to make that 4+/4+. I personally imagine 4+/5+ for battle sisters, no faith required. Talk about an IG players nightmare... Hordes of 20 girl strong, 8-10 point, 4+/5+ battle sisters rampaging across the board like orks with 4+ invul saving repentia mixed in here and there. Toss in deepstriking double melta pistol toting seraphim & CC goddess st. Celestine, rivaling mephistion in pure kicka$$, and you have a really cool army. I wish my codex prophesy was accurate, but I digress.

BACK ON TOPIC PEOPLE!!!

What do you imagine PAGK's will cost in the new book? 18pts?

Or, inversely, bringing their power to match the point cost of 25. They are few in number and only fielded in quantity when Chaos gets its act together.

But that's not how GW operates! So yeah, 18 point PAGK, that way we need to field more (and so buy more)
I would love for GW to prove me wrong though because that's a depressing thought.

I'd be happy with 18pt GK's and 28pt justicars. Add additional GK's at +20 points per model. That would put a 5 man GK squad at an even 100 points, and a 10 man at 200. Yeah, it's 50 points more than 10 space wolves, but it's worth it.

For goodness sake's give the boys in grey some drop pods!!!

I'd rather see the Stormraven and jet bikes instead of yet another drop pod army, to be honest. GKs have a golden opportunity to distance themselves from classic marines.

I expect to see stormravens in the next Daemonhunters book, and the ability to induct them into your existing spess muhreen force.

There's a rumor though about GW sending allies outside of Apocalypse the way of the dodo
Which is something I'm very much for.

Edit: That'd put an end to some of the ridiculous tricks people pull off using the allies rule.

And an end to the imperial guard as a viable tournament army

I don't know how IG fares in tournaments, but it's rather sad on Games Workshop's part if that army is gimped without allies.
But then it means that if the allies rule stays that the GK/SOB codex need to be balanced with the Imperial Guards and Space Marines in mind, potentially diminishing the power of specific units in order not to create a screw-up like currently.

So either the good toys are shared and probably pre-nerfed, or only the lesser toys are shared and IG players won't care/use them since the only thing they want is an Inquisitor with Mystics and Sages

That's just poor design.

IG mainly need the Inquisitor for psychic defense, as the power level of these abilities is reaching ever more preposterous levels with every new book. The deep strike protection is also helpful.

In any case, it will take a very long time for the allies to be phased out, since both the Daemon and Witch Hunter books would have to be rendered invalid with Codex:GK and Codex: SoB, respectively. And anyway, I do not for one millisecond believe they would get rid of Inquisitors and Assassins. They have always been around and always will be around. Grey Knights and Sisters will undoubtedly no longer be able to be allied to other armies (although I can see an exception for a unit of GK Terminators as an HQ or elite choice, as that is also a classic option). And if we're being honest, what "screw-ups" exist currently? Other than deep strike protection (and for IG a psychic hood) with Inquisitors, no one uses allies for anything else. Both the IG and Space Marine books play way better if they stick to their own units. I don't understand where the histrionics stem from.

Fluff reasons.

I hate the unlimited range psionic defense items.

GW seems to agree, since 5th there has not been another one. It all got cut out.

So once Inquisition gets dumped back to 24" pdychic hoods, ill stop hating on the allies system. Oh and Eldar too. Just like them, to hide behind a wall of tanks andstill bring the most powerful anti psi onto the field.

You mean that creating a bubble of carnage for anyone who dares deepstrike in proximity is not a screw-up? That's the only one, but it's a huge one. Re-reading what I wrote I see that I used the plural, my mistake on that one. But that trick is doubly painful and annoying when more and more armies are capable of deepstriking and are balanced around their ability to do so (hello Tyranids and your AV that *needs* a pod!).

You get to deny a pretty large zone from drop pods, deepstrikers and daemons. Units that, you know, usually want to be up close to do their shtick. Not only that, it scales insanely well once superheavies enter the battle. With that in mind my gut feeling is that GW will reel in the ability to take allies or limit it to specifif fluffy units like Voronesh, in which case it's probably no longer interesting from a mathhammer point.

And accusing of histrionics? Did I offend you by giving my opinion? Kungfuhustler posted his, I posted mine, and so forth like normal people engaged in a discussion. What will happen to GK/DH/Inq is totally unknown and so open to a multitude of interpretations. Seems like you don't want your cherished IG to lose a toy

I'm of the oppinion that the current Inq/hood/mystics combo is fairly balanced in an IG force. Running without it many IG builds are easily crushed by deepstrike armies, and the hood with unlimited range levels the playing field against eldar a little less than half of all turns, keeping them honest. 4d6 inches is a gamble for my opponents (I run two of these) and adds another element of risk (and fun) to the game. Meh.

Without the hood, at least, IG are toasted by psy-creep.

Without the anti deepstrike radius they are severely hindered. I know a few spess marine players who also use mystics, but the reasoning behind it if baffling to me.

Time to prepare for the time where not every warband is immune to psionics provided by a 3rd edition Codex.

Come on, kunfuhustler, you need to prepare for the possibilty of losing the unlimited range fore sure.

GW has scaled the hood back to 24" since 5th ed. Yes GW is known for having multiple versions of the same piece of wargear in the game, but once it gets updated they get evened out.

My two cents on various things

- The idea that Guard are unviable if they DON'T have access to a 3ed Inq and Mystics seems a bit silly. The codex was only released last year. There are lots of new goodies in it. I don't believe scrapping allied inquisitors will suddenly ruin the army

- Sisters get 3+ because of Power Armour. Power Armour is Power Armour. Just like Flak armour is the same regardless if it's the Cadian flak jacket or the Catachan, um, vest.... SM Power Armour has systems that allow him to stay operational for months/years at a time, fight in any environment, even space, and interface with his current enhanced muscluature through a Black Carapace, giving him S and T and I 4. A 'regular' suit of power armour does none of these things, it just gives you a 3+ save, and the power bundles replicate your movements so that you can even move inside it....

Information gleaned from a billion different novels and rulebooks over the years.

Oshova wrote:A Space Marine is bigger than a Sister because a Space Marine has been genetically engineered to be more muscley.

Also, a space marine is a male, and a Sister is a female. There *are* average height and muscle mass differences.

I'd be happy with 18pt GK's and 28pt justicars. Add additional GK's at +20 points per model. That would put a 5 man GK squad at an even 100 points, and a 10 man at 200. Yeah, it's 50 points more than 10 space wolves, but it's worth it.

For goodness sake's give the boys in grey some drop pods!!!

Wrong!
Grey Knights are in reality worth exactly 15 points each!!!!!!
Hopefully GW will get that through and make rules for the accordingly, itehr lower point cost or up power levels to match the ridiculously overpriced 25p each they have currently.

Pyriel- wrote:

I'd be happy with 18pt GK's and 28pt justicars. Add additional GK's at +20 points per model. That would put a 5 man GK squad at an even 100 points, and a 10 man at 200. Yeah, it's 50 points more than 10 space wolves, but it's worth it.

For goodness sake's give the boys in grey some drop pods!!!

Wrong!
Grey Knights are in reality worth exactly 15 points each!!!!!!
Hopefully GW will get that through and make rules for the accordingly, itehr lower point cost or up power levels to match the ridiculously overpriced 25p each they have currently.

So, GKs that have marine statlines but have special rules are worth the same as tacmarines?

Grey knights are much better than tactical marines but they are not worth 25 points a piece and a Justicar is definitely not worth 50 points.

That's a full squad of 10 termaguants or 5 Tau Firewarriors (who themselves are overpriced). A tactical marine sargeant has access to more wargear to give them a variety of abilities as well even though their basic stats are worse and they do not have the special rules that a Justicar does.

I can see a tooled up Justicar with different wargear being 50 points but when compared to other things at that price it is pricey.

rogueeyes wrote:Grey knights are much better than tactical marines but they are not worth 25 points a piece and a Justicar is definitely not worth 50 points.

That's a full squad of 10 termaguants or 5 Tau Firewarriors (who themselves are overpriced). A tactical marine sargeant has access to more wargear to give them a variety of abilities as well even though their basic stats are worse and they do not have the special rules that a Justicar does.

I can see a tooled up Justicar with different wargear being 50 points but when compared to other things at that price it is pricey.

Definitely not 25 and 50

I think 18 and 30-35 would be more appropriate.

Maybe 18 on the power armored GK, but 30-35 seems low for a specialized terminator squad. Keep in mind that both units are likely to see tweeks to bring there special rule back in line with their relative abilities of 3rd-4th ed. I generally think the power armored GK should be kept at 25pts but given 2+ saves, making it artificer armor.

Given the more fleet based strike force nature of the GK, stormravens could make sense. As someone else said, the last thing we need is another drop pod army.

I personally think the Grey Knights should go to having their Terminators as Troops, with power armored troops being used in specialized roles, that still allows them to be used as troops, but provide recon for teleporter and dropship deployments and supply support fire with special weapons.

The special and heavy weapons GK have should also be expanded.

ArbitorIan wrote:SM Power Armour has systems that allow him to stay operational for months/years at a time, fight in any environment, even space, and interface with his current enhanced muscluature through a Black Carapace, giving him S and T and I 4. A 'regular' suit of power armour does none of these things, it just gives you a 3+ save, and the power bundles replicate your movements so that you can even move inside it.....

space marines are S/T/I 4 because they're 7 and a half foot tall steroid superfreaks genetically engineered by the emperor... not because they're wearing spiffy armor. don't believe me? look at the scouts. visually, the armor doesn't deserve to be 3+ but it is. fluffwise, it shouldn't give the same protection that a marine's much heavier yet not less advanced armor does but in game it does. ultimately, it's not game breaking and provides an interesting middleground between marines and guardsmen, with stats of both on the same line.

Kungfuhustler wrote:I'm of the oppinion that the current Inq/hood/mystics combo is fairly balanced in an IG force. Running without it many IG builds are easily crushed by deepstrike armies, and the hood with unlimited range levels the playing field against eldar a little less than half of all turns, keeping them honest. 4d6 inches is a gamble for my opponents (I run two of these) and adds another element of risk (and fun) to the game. Meh.

Without the hood, at least, IG are toasted by psy-creep.

Without the anti deepstrike radius they are severely hindered. I know a few spess marine players who also use mystics, but the reasoning behind it if baffling to me.

Though opinions are like butts, in that everyone has one, I completely disagree. My buddy runs IG with niether of these and if he doesn't come in first in the local tourney his dice had to have been bad. The hood isn't so much of a big deal, "leveling the field" psychically against eldar should be hard they are the best psychers in 40k fluff wise besides tzeentch. It stops adding fun when an inquisitor with 2 mystics along with Pask belt your entire army with 5 str7 ap2 blasts at bs4. The counter balance to podding armies is that they can only shoot when they arrive, this creates a huge problem against orcs and other CC focused armies.

Guard have too many things that can effect nearly every aspect of the game to say they would be underpowered by removing two out dated options.

aka_mythos wrote:Maybe 18 on the power armored GK, but 30-35 seems low for a specialized terminator squad. Keep in mind that both units are likely to see tweeks to bring there special rule back in line with their relative abilities of 3rd-4th ed. I generally think the power armored GK should be kept at 25pts but given 2+ saves, making it artificer armor.

Given the more fleet based strike force nature of the GK, stormravens could make sense. As someone else said, the last thing we need is another drop pod army.

I personally think the Grey Knights should go to having their Terminators as Troops, with power armored troops being used in specialized roles, that still allows them to be used as troops, but provide recon for teleporter and dropship deployments and supply support fire with special weapons.

The special and heavy weapons GK have should also be expanded.

From what we've seen in the coming blood angels codex we can make an educated guess that the Storm Raven will be included in a future Grey knight codex. From the different fluff I've read I can also see drops pods as well as the most other typical SM vehicles. Grey Knight's are basically a first response chapter to demonic invasions. Often times they use T-Hawks and drops pods together in order to get to where they need to be. If anything I would think Grey Knights should have Drop pods rather than many other marine chapters.

warboss wrote:
space marines are S/T/I 4 because they're 7 and a half foot tall steroid superfreaks genetically engineered by the emperor... not because they're wearing spiffy armor. don't believe me? look at the scouts. visually, the armor doesn't deserve to be 3+ but it is. fluffwise, it shouldn't give the same protection that a marine's much heavier yet not less advanced armor does but in game it does. ultimately, it's not game breaking and provides an interesting middleground between marines and guardsmen, with stats of both on the same line.

Scout armor is 4+

Brother SRM wrote:

warboss wrote:
space marines are S/T/I 4 because they're 7 and a half foot tall steroid superfreaks genetically engineered by the emperor... not because they're wearing spiffy armor. don't believe me? look at the scouts. visually, the armor doesn't deserve to be 3+ but it is. fluffwise, it shouldn't give the same protection that a marine's much heavier yet not less advanced armor does but in game it does. ultimately, it's not game breaking and provides an interesting middleground between marines and guardsmen, with stats of both on the same line.

Scout armor is 4+

i know. my point is that the armor doesn't give the marines the stats listed above (s/t/i), the fact that they're space marines does. arb ian was commenting that the armor does it.

Hmm, this thread is now perhaps better suited to a different board than the N & R one.

aka_mythos wrote:I personally think the Grey Knights should go to having their Terminators as Troops, with power armored troops being used in specialized roles, that still allows them to be used as troops, but provide recon for teleporter and dropship deployments and supply support fire with special weapons. The special and heavy weapons GK have should also be expanded.

I like this idea. Most of the Daemon fighting is done by the terminators, so relegating the power armored marines to a support role (heavy weapons, scouting, clearing out the surrounding heretics) makes sense.

And people really need to stop with this pointless argument about power armor. Every statistic in the game is a very general abstraction. Is a Space Marine really only 33% stronger than a guardsman? What armor is worth a crap when a butterknife will cut through it 1/3 of the time? Fluff != rules, period.

So, GKs that have marine statlines but have special rules are worth the same as tacmarines?

Grey knights are much better than tactical marines but they are not worth 25 points a piece and a Justicar is definitely not worth 50 points.

That's a full squad of 10 termaguants or 5 Tau Firewarriors (who themselves are overpriced). A tactical marine sargeant has access to more wargear to give them a variety of abilities as well even though their basic stats are worse and they do not have the special rules that a Justicar does.

I can see a tooled up Justicar with different wargear being 50 points but when compared to other things at that price it is pricey.

You heard correct.
GK troopers are worth exactly 15 points each and no they are not better then "tac marines", they are in fact worse since tac marines are worth 16p.
Shocking I bet but here is why...

Some time ago I sacrificed almost 24 full hours (two full night shifts at work with nothing to do but goof off) to make some heavy duty math statistics for a GK codex/rules project over at another ungrateful pos board. The project was dead serious however and so was the work I put into it.

So how did I do it and how come I came up with the GK-worth-only-15p-each conclusion?


I took a troop squad of every kind in the 40k game, SM, CSM with all variants, stormtroopers etc etc, you name it and paired those squads of vs a GK squad so that equal points met equal points.

I them proceeded to space them 24´apart (all in theory and with pure math, no dice was thrown as that would produce a flawed result) and gave first the other troop and then the GKs first turn.
I "played" both units to their best abilities, using them as tehy are ment to, thus IS troops did not want to end up in melee etc.

I calculated the outcomes with what troop earned back what points vs the others and thus got an EXACT point-per-mini result for each and every encounter vs the GKs.

I then proceeded to DO IT ALL AGAIN but with different wargear loadouts, still giving both opponents the benefit of both first turn and the drawback of second turn.

I then DID IT ALL OVER AGAIN with yet other wargear loadouts.

I then DID IT ALL OVER AGAIN buying transports for the troop units that could take them, always keeping point costs equal.

All was done with exact mathematical percentage values every single step of the way, no shortcuts were ever used in rounding up or down killed minis etc.

The result, was staggering, the GKS were on average only worth 15p each.
Why?
Its not in the statlines, its in the wargear. Most squads can take waregar that negates GK armour like SM plasmacannons, missiles, CSM plasma pistols etc etc etc so a measly dirt cheap guardsman in a unit can kill of a 25p GK with ease if he is toting a plasmagun, melta or even a flamer or a heavy weapon.
It is those things, besides transports that strongly favour melee units vs GKs and can get cover saves to shooty units like IG that do it.

Even though the result was 15p per GK I biased the duel scenarios towards GKs in that I never used transports as means to get away from charge range for squads that did not want to end up in melee with the GKs.



So there you have it black on white and if you wish to refute my claim please bring substantial proof of that otehr then your opinion since I have TONS to back up myconclusion.
Knowing GW they´ll overprice the GK as usual making them utter crap yet again. Hopefully someone can send this post to the GW dev team just so they get something to think about when doing the next GK codex. A simple thing like better shrouding or more varied GK waregar would do wonders with making them worth more points.

Thanks, guys.

So... You're telling us that a space marine with a storm bolter, true grit, and a str 6 weapon + shrouding, the ability to take psycannons and superflamers

=

1 point less than a marine with a bolter & chainsword because that marine can take melta & plasma?

YOUR FAIL IS THE FAIL THAT HAS PIERCED THE INTERNETS

GK's do not play in the same fashion as other troops. there is an article about it on this very board.

So... You're telling us that a space marine with a storm bolter, true grit, and a str 6 weapon + shrouding, the ability to take psycannons and superflamers

=

1 point less than a marine with a bolter & chainsword because that marine can take melta & plasma?

YOUR FAIL IS THE FAIL THAT HAS PIERCED THE INTERNETS

GK's do not play in the same fashion as other troops. there is an article about it on this very board.

you fail in that you cannot even grasp basic reasoning.
You also fail in coming with crap argumentation, no reasoning otehr then your own point of view and capslock "fail" screaming. Didnt you learn anything in 3:d grade?

Its not the stormbolter and S6 weapon (reread my post instead of being so damn slow). IF and I say IF all otehr troops like Tac squads guard platoons etc only came naked, pretty much as the GKs do with NO transports, no heavy GK killing weapons (GK dont have range power like other troops have) but only bolters or lasguns vs GK stormbolters then yes, GKs would pretty much own them.

But sadly GKS dont have a magic ability to pop up in instant melee, nor do pure GKs have cheap transports, nor any protection against AP2-3 assault weapons or heavy weapons otehr troop units dish out.
The ranged fight is a massacre for GKs and as most deployments start at least 24´apart this is where things are to be calculated from.

Against troops like thousand sons and their AP3 bolters its a pure massacre.

Try and stand a tac squad up against a GK squad and see how much that plasmacannon or missile will own compared to the stormbolters.


And as for not playing in the same fashion you mean to tell me foot slogging, non transport GKs are a match to dirt cheap troop units that massacre them in shooting?
Or that the 250p landraiders that are popped by 150p melta drop pods on first turn are any kind of advantage?

Yes we all get that the GK's have few advantages over many modern army's i personally think you should judge them alongside SW grey hunters, both are versatile ranged/melee units and the GH's are only 15 points with an extra attack on the charge and counter attack and grenades, so i think we'll see grey knights becoming cheaper with the new codex.

I just hope they dont tough the nemesis weapons or shrouding etc or they'd lose the feel of grey knights to me...

Edit: and i like being able to kill eternal warriors with my force weapons

I would like for them to keep costing 25p each but get their power levels up to match that.

As it is now the GK stormbolter is not worth more then a tac bolter.

10 Tac squad + plasmacannon = 175p
6 GK = 175p

This is what is so pathetic. The 6 stormbolters output in wounds is equal to the tac squads (the same point costs) but the tac squad will absolutely massacre the GKs, even if the lone GK happen to survive against all odds in getting to melee it will die on the first turn of it anyway.

Pyriel- wrote:

So, GKs that have marine statlines but have special rules are worth the same as tacmarines?

Grey knights are much better than tactical marines but they are not worth 25 points a piece and a Justicar is definitely not worth 50 points.

That's a full squad of 10 termaguants or 5 Tau Firewarriors (who themselves are overpriced). A tactical marine sargeant has access to more wargear to give them a variety of abilities as well even though their basic stats are worse and they do not have the special rules that a Justicar does.

I can see a tooled up Justicar with different wargear being 50 points but when compared to other things at that price it is pricey.

You heard correct.
GK troopers are worth exactly 15 points each and no they are not better then "tac marines", they are in fact worse since tac marines are worth 16p.
Shocking I bet but here is why...

Some time ago I sacrificed almost 24 full hours (two full night shifts at work with nothing to do but goof off) to make some heavy duty math statistics for a GK codex/rules project over at another ungrateful pos board. The project was dead serious however and so was the work I put into it.

So how did I do it and how come I came up with the GK-worth-only-15p-each conclusion?


I took a troop squad of every kind in the 40k game, SM, CSM with all variants, stormtroopers etc etc, you name it and paired those squads of vs a GK squad so that equal points met equal points.

I them proceeded to space them 24´apart (all in theory and with pure math, no dice was thrown as that would produce a flawed result) and gave first the other troop and then the GKs first turn.
I "played" both units to their best abilities, using them as tehy are ment to, thus IS troops did not want to end up in melee etc.

I calculated the outcomes with what troop earned back what points vs the others and thus got an EXACT point-per-mini result for each and every encounter vs the GKs.

I then proceeded to DO IT ALL AGAIN but with different wargear loadouts, still giving both opponents the benefit of both first turn and the drawback of second turn.

I then DID IT ALL OVER AGAIN with yet other wargear loadouts.

I then DID IT ALL OVER AGAIN buying transports for the troop units that could take them, always keeping point costs equal.

All was done with exact mathematical percentage values every single step of the way, no shortcuts were ever used in rounding up or down killed minis etc.

The result, was staggering, the GKS were on average only worth 15p each.
Why?
Its not in the statlines, its in the wargear. Most squads can take waregar that negates GK armour like SM plasmacannons, missiles, CSM plasma pistols etc etc etc so a measly dirt cheap guardsman in a unit can kill of a 25p GK with ease if he is toting a plasmagun, melta or even a flamer or a heavy weapon.
It is those things, besides transports that strongly favour melee units vs GKs and can get cover saves to shooty units like IG that do it.

Even though the result was 15p per GK I biased the duel scenarios towards GKs in that I never used transports as means to get away from charge range for squads that did not want to end up in melee with the GKs.



So there you have it black on white and if you wish to refute my claim please bring substantial proof of that otehr then your opinion since I have TONS to back up myconclusion.
Knowing GW they´ll overprice the GK as usual making them utter crap yet again. Hopefully someone can send this post to the GW dev team just so they get something to think about when doing the next GK codex. A simple thing like better shrouding or more varied GK waregar would do wonders with making them worth more points.

So what you're really saying is, "I failed statistics in high school, but I'm going to make up a story about how I took painstaking research to make my inane wishlisting sound plausible."

I could go into extensive detail how stupid and implausible this is, but hopefully anyone who reads this should be able to come to that conclusion themselves.

Maybe, but i'm being nice cause he's an awesome sculptor (compared to me anyways )

DEATH89 wrote:Yes we all get that the GK's have few advantages over many modern army's i personally think you should judge them alongside SW grey hunters, both are versatile ranged/melee units and the GH's are only 15 points with an extra attack on the charge and counter attack and grenades, so i think we'll see grey knights becoming cheaper with the new codex.

I just hope they dont tough the nemesis weapons or shrouding etc or they'd lose the feel of grey knights to me...

Edit: and i like being able to kill eternal warriors with my force weapons

They are going to be cheaper, but they're never going to be cheaper than tacmarines. They deserve to be in the range of 18-20 right now. S6 in CC combined with true grit and shrouding and fearless does not equal 15 points, no matter how many times you say the word "mathematical" in your argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyriel- wrote:

So... You're telling us that a space marine with a storm bolter, true grit, and a str 6 weapon + shrouding, the ability to take psycannons and superflamers

=

1 point less than a marine with a bolter & chainsword because that marine can take melta & plasma?

YOUR FAIL IS THE FAIL THAT HAS PIERCED THE INTERNETS

GK's do not play in the same fashion as other troops. there is an article about it on this very board.

you fail in that you cannot even grasp basic reasoning.
You also fail in coming with crap argumentation, no reasoning otehr then your own point of view and capslock "fail" screaming. Didnt you learn anything in 3:d grade?

Its not the stormbolter and S6 weapon (reread my post instead of being so damn slow). IF and I say IF all otehr troops like Tac squads guard platoons etc only came naked, pretty much as the GKs do with NO transports, no heavy GK killing weapons (GK dont have range power like other troops have) but only bolters or lasguns vs GK stormbolters then yes, GKs would pretty much own them.

But sadly GKS dont have a magic ability to pop up in instant melee, nor do pure GKs have cheap transports, nor any protection against AP2-3 assault weapons or heavy weapons otehr troop units dish out.
The ranged fight is a massacre for GKs and as most deployments start at least 24´apart this is where things are to be calculated from.

Against troops like thousand sons and their AP3 bolters its a pure massacre.

Try and stand a tac squad up against a GK squad and see how much that plasmacannon or missile will own compared to the stormbolters.


And as for not playing in the same fashion you mean to tell me foot slogging, non transport GKs are a match to dirt cheap troop units that massacre them in shooting?
Or that the 250p landraiders that are popped by 150p melta drop pods on first turn are any kind of advantage?

Nobody's saying GK aren't overpriced, but your "conclusion" that they should only cost 15 points is downright stupid, and does indeed show that you have no working knowledge of game balance, statistics, or functional logic.

This game is balanced around some units having counters to outher forces. That plasma cannon that wrecks your PAGKs gets laughed at by an Ork or Tyranid player. Same goes for those 23point 1ksons marines. That's why 9/10 times I see players taking a multi-melta in their tac squads because it's much more useful universally.

Not to mention crafting a scenario that's basically "who wins a sub 200 point game" which I shouldn't even need to explain is a terrible balance metric.

Didn't mean cheaper than tac marines just cheaper than they are, I'd be happ with NFW, Storm Bolter, Bolt Pistol, F+G grenades and shrouding for 20 points, hell even 25 if they throw in the Aegis (army wide psychic hoods) aswell.

Edit: and take fearless away please just make us stubborn Ld10 instead

Well, I agree that they definitely should cost more than tac marines (I don't care how much "data" supports his conclusion, it is still one of madness, they are overpriced but not by that much), but the psycannons/super flamers are kind of part of the problem. A large portion of the points obviously goes towards the nemesis force weapon and storm bolter w/true grit, yet they give up both of those things AND pay 30 points on top of that to get a psycannon. Losing those WS5 S6 attacks hurts, especially when points limit unit size. Not being able to take dedicated transports is also a serious issue. Hopefully they borrow a page from the Blood Angels with dedicated raiders all around and stormravens as heavy support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyriel- wrote:
Try and stand a tac squad up against a GK squad and see how much that plasmacannon or missile will own compared to the stormbolters.

Okay. 10-man tac squad with missile launcher and plasmagun = 180 points. 12-man GK squad with no heavy weapons at your proposed cost of 15 per.

Marines go first. 8 bolters = 0.87 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.97 wounds, so two dead.
Grey Knights go. 10 stormbolters = 2.18 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 5.82 bolters = 0.63 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.73 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 8.27 stormbolters = 1.8 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 4 bolters = 0.44 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.54 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 6.73 stormbolters = 1.5 unsaved wounds. At this point, either the plasma or the missile launcher would have to take a save, but let's assume they pass and only bolters die.
Marines go. 2.5 bolters = 0.27 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.37 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 5.36 stormbolters = 1.17 unsaved wounds. Again, assuming the special/heavy weapons pass their checks.
Marines go. 1.33 bolters = 0.14 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.24 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 4.12 stormbolters = 0.9 unsaved wounds. At this point, both guys are taking checks, but we're still assuming only the bolters die.
Marines go. 0.43 bolters = 0.05 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.15 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 2.97 stormbolters = 0.64 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 0.8 of PG&ML = 0.88 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights go. 2 stormbolters = 0.44 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 0.36 of PG&ML = 0.4 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights go 1.6 stormbolters = 0.35 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights win with at least one guy standing.

So the Marines BARELY(as in, a fraction of one marine left standing) win if you let them go first
EDIT: Strike that, I realized I underestimated the stormbolter performance one round, so they actually STILL WIN even if you let the marines go first, ignore shrouding completely, ignore the impact of all but omnipresent cover on the damage output of the special/heavy weapon, always assume the special/heavy weapon make their saves, and allow fractions of models to continue firing (which also benefits the special/heavy more). If we did the same thing with any of the above factors counted in, the Grey Knights would win hands down. If we brought things to melee, the Grey Knights would win hands down. They are overpriced, but your "highly researched conclusion" as to their value is complete and utter nonsense.

So yes, your fail DOES indeed pierce the internet.

Terminus wrote:Well, I agree that they definitely should cost more than tac marines (I don't care how much "data" supports his conclusion, it is still one of madness, they are overpriced but not by that much), but the psycannons/super flamers are kind of part of the problem. A large portion of the points obviously goes towards the nemesis force weapon and storm bolter w/true grit, yet they give up both of those things AND pay 30 points on top of that to get a psycannon. Losing those WS5 S6 attacks hurts, especially when points limit unit size. Not being able to take dedicated transports is also a serious issue. Hopefully they borrow a page from the Blood Angels with dedicated raiders all around and stormravens as heavy support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyriel- wrote:
Try and stand a tac squad up against a GK squad and see how much that plasmacannon or missile will own compared to the stormbolters.

Okay. 10-man tac squad with missile launcher and plasmagun = 180 points. 12-man GK squad with no heavy weapons at your proposed cost of 15 per.

Marines go first. 8 bolters = 0.87 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.97 wounds, so two dead.
Grey Knights go. 10 stormbolters = 2.18 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 5.82 bolters = 0.63 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.73 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 8.27 stormbolters = 1.8 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 4 bolters = 0.44 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.54 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 6.73 stormbolters = 1.5 unsaved wounds. At this point, either the plasma or the missile launcher would have to take a save, but let's assume they pass and only bolters die.
Marines go. 2.5 bolters = 0.27 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.37 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 5.36 stormbolters = 1.17 unsaved wounds. Again, assuming the special/heavy weapons pass their checks.
Marines go. 1.33 bolters = 0.14 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.24 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 4.12 stormbolters = 0.9 unsaved wounds. At this point, both guys are taking checks, but we're still assuming only the bolters die.
Marines go. 0.43 bolters = 0.05 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.15 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 2.97 stormbolters = 0.64 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 0.8 of PG&ML = 0.88 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights go. 2 stormbolters = 0.44 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 0.36 of PG&ML = 0.4 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights go 1.6 stormbolters = 0.35 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights win with at least one guy standing.

So the Marines BARELY(as in, a fraction of one marine left standing) win if you let them go first
EDIT: Strike that, I realized I underestimated the stormbolter performance one round, so they actually STILL WIN even if you let the marines go first, ignore shrouding completely, ignore the impact of all but omnipresent cover on the damage output of the special/heavy weapon, always assume the special/heavy weapon make their saves, and allow fractions of models to continue firing (which also benefits the special/heavy more). If we did the same thing with any of the above factors counted in, the Grey Knights would win hands down. If we brought things to melee, the Grey Knights would win hands down. They are overpriced, but your "highly researched conclusion" as to their value is complete and utter nonsense.

So yes, your fail DOES indeed pierce the internet.

Terminus, you really didn't need to do the calculations, because his model was so ridiculously flawed to begin with.

For example: what if there's a piece of area terrain between the two squads (something that will happen in nearly every game), nearly negating the benefit of the plasma cannon he used to show how tacmarines are supposedly so much better while completely not being a detriment to the storm bolters?

Hell, let's say the cost is 20 points per. 175 points for 10 marines with PG and PC, versus 8 PAGKs (no Justicar for the sake of simplicity) Don't forget the PA GKs will obviously be trying to close to melee, while the tacmarines can't move if they want to fire their PC

Without terrain, PAGK go first

16 SB shots: 1.77 dead marines. Rounding to 2.
1 PG shot + 1 PC shot (assuming an average of 1 hit per shot to account for scatter) + 6 bolter shots = 1.64 dead PAGKs, rounding up to 2.

12 SB shots = 1.32 dead marines, rounding down to 1

2 PG shots + 1 PC shot + 10 bolter shots = 2.6 dead PAGK, rounding to 3

6 SB shots = .6, round to 1. PA charge in for 9 S6 attacks for another 2 dead marines while the remaining marines son't even manage 1 kill most of the time. In the end the PAGKs will barely win most of the time due to their nigh-insurmountable CC advantage. This is especially true if we instead include a Justicar's PW into it (trading 2 PAGKs for a Justicar). If Tacmarines go first, they'll win by a more decent margin most of the time. Fair trade without terrain: equal points of similar units mean that the first turn advantage will be the winning factor.

With terrain in between it's not even close though. Even if we assume PAGKs go second, getting a cover save makes the Tacmarines a joke.

So what you're really saying is, "I failed statistics in high school, but I'm going to make up a story about how I took painstaking research to make my inane wishlisting sound plausible."

I could go into extensive detail how stupid and implausible this is, but hopefully anyone who reads this should be able to come to that conclusion themselves.

Your counter argumentation shines a light on severe intellectual challenges. Maybe I should type in baby speak next time to get through to you.

They are going to be cheaper, but they're never going to be cheaper than tacmarines. They deserve to be in the range of 18-20 right now. S6 in CC combined with true grit and shrouding and fearless does not equal 15 points, no matter how many times you say the word "mathematical" in your argument.

And all this you base on your opinion, hehe, priceless really.
That sound so convincing.

Sounds like you are the one failed math and are so scared of it now that you simply cannot face up to the arguments and retort to using your personal opinion and "proof".
LOL

Nobody's saying GK aren't overpriced, but your "conclusion" that they should only cost 15 points is downright stupid, and does indeed show that you have no working knowledge of game balance, statistics, or functional logic.

I compared troop choice only, that is with no whole picture deal, that is up for GW to decide and I never made any claims otherwise.
Are you slow for real or need I retype it for you?

Besides, thanks for letting your expertise on the game guide me to what is right. I´m sure GW would listen to your personal opinion based on the genious logic.

Well, I agree that they definitely should cost more than tac marines (I don't care how much "data" supports his conclusion,

Finally someone who knows how to argument and can be taken seriosly.
Yes I fully agree, they should cost more then tac marines but as I said the cost difference comes directly from wargear options in assault and heavy weapons and transports.
If GW simply gives them more options either for transports, getting into faster melee or having a more varied wargear selection then this alone might very well make them worth 20-25p each as they are.

The biggest problem (not that wargear takes away S6 attacks although that is important too) is that they dont have cheap transport cover and that a 6´guardsman can down a 25p GK simply by upgrading his dirt cheap squad with an additional weapon.

You can dance SB range all day long but you will still be outshot by most units before you reach melee and your transports are 250p points and cant be babysitting a squad each since the game is much about being spread out to hunt objectives.

Okay. 10-man tac squad with missile launcher and plasmagun = 180 points. 12-man GK squad with no heavy weapons at your proposed cost of 15 per.

Try 10 marines with plasmacannon vs 6 GKs.

For example: what if there's a piece of area terrain between the two squads (something that will happen in nearly every game), nearly negating the benefit of the plasma cannon he used to show how tacmarines are supposedly so much better while completely not being a detriment to the storm bolters?

Terrain goes both ways stupido.

Terrain goes both ways stupido.

No, it really doesn't. Not all cover situations are created equally. The GKs get saves they otherwise wouldn't from plasma, while the tacmarines gain nothing from being shot at by AP5. Your assertion otherwise just shows how flagrantly misplaced your belief in your analytical skills is.

God, you're backpedaling so hard I can barely see you anymore. I can't even bring myself to try to respond to most of this nonsense. Please leave the probabilistic analyses to people who know what they're talking about.

Okay. 10-man tac squad with missile launcher and plasmagun = 180 points. 12-man GK squad with no heavy weapons at your proposed cost of 15 per.

Marines go first. 8 bolters = 0.87 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.97 wounds, so two dead.
Grey Knights go. 10 stormbolters = 2.18 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 5.82 bolters = 0.63 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.73 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 8.27 stormbolters = 1.8 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 4 bolters = 0.44 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.54 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 6.73 stormbolters = 1.5 unsaved wounds. At this point, either the plasma or the missile launcher would have to take a save, but let's assume they pass and only bolters die.
Marines go. 2.5 bolters = 0.27 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.37 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 5.36 stormbolters = 1.17 unsaved wounds. Again, assuming the special/heavy weapons pass their checks.
Marines go. 1.33 bolters = 0.14 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.24 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 4.12 stormbolters = 0.9 unsaved wounds. At this point, both guys are taking checks, but we're still assuming only the bolters die.
Marines go. 0.43 bolters = 0.05 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.15 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 2.97 stormbolters = 0.64 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 0.8 of PG&ML = 0.88 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights go. 2 stormbolters = 0.44 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 0.36 of PG&ML = 0.4 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights go 1.6 stormbolters = 0.35 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights win with at least one guy standing.

So the Marines BARELY(as in, a fraction of one marine left standing) win if you let them go first
EDIT: Strike that, I realized I underestimated the stormbolter performance one round, so they actually STILL WIN even if you let the marines go first, ignore shrouding completely, ignore the impact of all but omnipresent cover on the damage output of the special/heavy weapon, always assume the special/heavy weapon make their saves, and allow fractions of models to continue firing (which also benefits the special/heavy more). If we did the same thing with any of the above factors counted in, the Grey Knights would win hands down. If we brought things to melee, the Grey Knights would win hands down. They are overpriced, but your "highly researched conclusion" as to their value is complete and utter nonsense.

So yes, your fail DOES indeed pierce the internet.

Really?


Lets see then...

10 tac with pc 175p
11 GKs (justicar costing an additional 15p) 180p

GKs go first for the fun of it, range is 24´ as its easy to get but should in fact be even more since the defending player (who wants to shoot) can easily back more.

Turn 1:

GKs shoot and go 6´ forward.
2.4 marines are dead.

6.6 marines shoot back.
1 PC shoots back.

PC scaters 66% of the times 3 inches on average and of these about 1/5 scatter in a bad direction. I assume 2,5 GKs are covered by each shot.

GKs loose 2.87 members.



Turn 2:
7.6 marines vs 8.13 GK.

GK now at 12 range.

1.77 marines down.

4.83 marines shoot back
1 PC shots back.

GKs loose 3.2 members.


Turn 3:

5.83 marines left vs 4.93 GK.

GK shoot and assault.
Marines loose 1.1 in shooting,

4.73 marines vs 4.93 GKs in melee.
Result is 0.47 GKs dead vs 3.19

Turn 4:
2.64 marines vs 4.46 GKs in melee.

4.16 GKs left vs all marines dead.

Pretty close and GKS got first turn.



Lets give SM first turn.

10 SM vs 11 GK, same range.

9 SM shoot, 1 PC shoots = 3.15 GK dead.

GK shoot back = 1.7 marine dead.



Turn 2:
Range 18´

8.3 SM vs 7.85 GK.

SM shoots and kills 3.05 GK.
GK now at 12´range kill 1 marine.

Turn 3:

7.3 SM vs GK 4.8 GK.

SM shoot and down 3.1 GK (assuming PC only hit 2 due to smaller squad, further advantage to GK)
GK down 0.37 marines.

6.93 marines vs 1.7 GK in melee.

SM kill 0.65 GK.
GK kill 2 marines.


Turn 4:

4.93 marines vs 1.05 GK.
SM kill 0.5 GK.
GK kill 1.72 SM.


Turn 5:

3.2 SM vs 0.55 GK in melee.

SM kill 0.35 GK.
GK kill 1.72 SM.

Turn 6:

1.5 SM vs 0.2 GK.


Its pretty fking close, dead on in other words in both scenarios where GK cost 15 p each.
Thus in 1 vs 1 scenarios the 15p GKs are perfectly matched to the 16p tac squad.


Making a third scenario where SM can buy a rhino will further show this.

You fail to prove me wrong, all praise the internet but you get a cookie for trying if it helps!

No, it really doesn't. Not all cover situations are created equally. The GKs get saves they otherwise wouldn't from plasma, while the tacmarines gain nothing from being shot at by AP5. Your assertion otherwise just shows how flagrantly misplaced your belief in your analytical skills is.

Look above.

Also try to give the tac a rhino, something GKs cant have and see where your plasma save will get you in your genius belief of your gaming expertise.
Damn but this thread made my day
Keep it up!

So... ah... Any News? Or Rumors?

Phil

boreas wrote:So... ah... Any News? Or Rumors?

Phil

Nope, just abject stupidity and intellectual dishonesty.

Didn't this get moved from N+R anyway?

I was told there would be no math.

Not to mention that this is severly off-topic.

So you based the point reduction on the fact that they don't have access to the same special weapons or cheap transport? I mean, I can see where you're coming from, but that's not how it works. You don't base the cost of a unit on the meta game, but on it's stats and abilities. It would make more sense (and be less of a headache) if GKs are just given access to rhinos and plasma guns and what have you (although I think you did point that out). They probably will be reduced in points, but I doubt it would be less than 19 pts. Justicar, on the other hand, definitely need a discount. I mean, 25 more points for an extra attack and a power weapon? ya, no.

Pyriel- wrote:

PC scaters 66% of the times 3 inches on average and of these about 1/5 scatter in a bad direction. I assume 2,5 GKs are covered by each shot.

Really? 2 1/2 hit GK each shot? You are grossely overestimating what a PC can do.

First off, 1/6 of the shot will get hot.
Second, even with a hit, properly spaced it will only cover 1 on a hit.

I would go with 1/2 scatter the wrong way, and 1/2 of those scatter to far.

So 1/3 hit. 2/3 miss. 3/4 of those misses still hit. 1/3 + 3/4 * 2/3 + 1/3 = 5/6

Only get to shoot 5/6 times, so 5/6 * 5/6 = 25/36

Let's assume sloppy placement and you get 3 models on average. 3 * 25/36 = 2.08

That comes out 0.4 less dead per volley, or 2.4 less kills per 6 turns.


So even with space marines shooting first, and not correcting for less GK's dying each round, that would be 2.6 GK's left vs 1.5 marines.

another thread heading to be closed:( way off subject again:(

lets ge back on track

Which would you prefer? Seperate GK, WH, and Inquisiton codices? How they already are? Or The ultimate Inquisition codex of all three orders and Inquisition.

My vote is on the triple with Inquisition. It gives you maximum choice, with minimum spent on books.

Thoughts . . .

Oshova

I'd prefer if GW consolidated Daemonhunters and Witchhunters into one codex, since that's one less codex they'd need to update. GW themselves have stated that they got a little "Inquisition happy" around 3rd ed. Besides, the few boxes of Sisters and GK getting pulled from the website hints toward this.

A unified Inquisition would be awesome. it doesn't force the players to choose, and allows for epic joint operations. I also really hope that the Ordo Xeno/Deathwatch also get a section.

I might explode if they did Ordos Xenos. So this would be good and bad . . . suppose it depends on how I explode. I mean I could face losing a few toes to get the most awesome and useful Ordos of the 3 IMO.

Oshova

The only problem is, how would they do Deathwatch/Ordo Xeno? The only fluff about them that I have read about them was in the Dark Heresy rulebook.

Well if anyone can make the fluff on Deathwatch it's GW . . . And basically they covered a little bit here, and a little bit there. They're in the 2nd Ultramarine book for example, and mentioned in passing in the new Crimson Fist book Rynn's World.

Also they did a set of rules for using them as an addition to your existing Space Marines of whatever chapter in White Dwarf's Chapter Approved.

So there's somewhere to start with those, but yeah there would be quite a lot of work involved in it. But that's what GW is there for. To create interesting fluff, models, and armies for hobbyists to enjoy . . . or so they say.

Oshova

I think the Sternguard has in many ways replaced the Death watch. Those funky bolter rounds are the Deathwatch's gag. The only thing that's missing is a heavy bolter that can move and fire.

rogueeyes wrote:
From what we've seen in the coming blood angels codex we can make an educated guess that the Storm Raven will be included in a future Grey knight codex. From the different fluff I've read I can also see drops pods as well as the most other typical SM vehicles. Grey Knight's are basically a first response chapter to demonic invasions. Often times they use T-Hawks and drops pods together in order to get to where they need to be. If anything I would think Grey Knights should have Drop pods rather than many other marine chapters.

Fluff wise though, Grey Knights are known for teleporting into battle. They don't use drop pods because they've mastered teleporation better than anyone in the Imperium. It would be nice if this were reflected in-game.

New army-wide rules, Deep Strike and Heroic Intervention!

DEATH89 wrote:so i think we'll see grey knights becoming cheaper with the new codex because GW wants to sell more PAGKs!

Fixed!

Just a quick post given the current SM Codex it is not unreasonable to just give GK two attacks base and do away w/ True Grit altogether.

My money they get some sort of Combi weapons (maybe three per w/ more in Fast and Heavy) and an Invulnerable save. Purgation Squads remain and maybe can even take an Inquistor instead of a Justicar.

Uriels_Flame wrote:

DEATH89 wrote:so i think we'll see grey knights becoming cheaper with the new codex because GW wants to sell more PAGKs!

Fixed!

This is true of almost any codex though... SOMETHING always gets cheaper, or at least buffed to the point to where you'd buy some if you didn't already have any...

And an Ordo Xenos codex would be downright amazing, though I dunno how they'd be reflected ruleswise compared to other Marine codices. In the fluff, do they bicker about being in squads with other chapters? For example, how does a DA and an SW get along in the same squad? Are they governed by Inquisitors or is it closer to a Codex Astartes organization?

I could basically see them as more expensive Marines with better gear. Nothing weird to explain it: no faith lpowers like SoB, no hyper-specialization psykraft like GKs, but heavily armed by xeno-derived tech and spurred on by a desire to outprove each other in combat. The most "human" of the Chambers Militant, as it were.

I can't see Ordos Xenos having a codex - what do they have aside from the Deathwatch? Give some slightly modified Sternguard to the Inquisition, and you'd have your Deathwatch right there.

Brother SRM wrote:I can't see Ordos Xenos having a codex - what do they have aside from the Deathwatch? Give some slightly modified Sternguard to the Inquisition, and you'd have your Deathwatch right there.

Well, what does Ordo Malleus have besides GKs, and a bunch of Daemonhosts solely there for fluff? And the same goes for Ordo Hereticus and SoB?

If GW can make GKs different enough to warrant a codex, I'm confident they could do the same for Deathwatch.

Or they can, you know, roll it into one codex. No need to come up with 3 different half codexes then CopyPaste the Inq part as filler.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Or they can, you know, roll it into one codex. No need to come up with 3 different half codexes then CopyPaste the Inq part as filler.

I'd rather see Codex: SoB, Codex GK, Codex: DW, AND Codex: Inquisition. The latter would focus more on inquisitorial warbands and stormtroopers. Depending on what kind of Inquisitor you take, you get SoB/GK/DW as allies in your Elites slots. Or something along those lines, anyhow.

Definitely the best way would be to have one codex for all 3. But my gut instinct for some reason says "drop WH, just have GK, and forget about Xenos." I hope GW don't do that. But for some reason that's what my gut tell some they'll do =[

Oshova

I also agree with the one codex option, but GW never will. They'd much rather gouge us for the price of three if they can.

Since GW gets less money from codex and more from models, one codex would make more sense. Players buy codex, look at all the unit options, and buy all the models. multi-codexs will end in less model sales. My opinion, anyway.

I'd want a single Codex as well, saves repeating the same entry for Inquisitorial Storm Troopers three times over.

Assuming there even is such a thing come the revision and we don't just get Codex: Defacto Grey Knights & Sisters.

I'd rather have two Codices where the specialties of GKs (Elite Elite SM with psionics and assaulty stuff) and Sororitas (Ecclesia, including certainly some fanatics/redemptionists) are expanded. Even if I will miss the Inquisitors.

I want a single codex as long as they dont turn GKs into a couple of units for decoration, I'm not big on inquisitors really so i'd like to be able to field varied GK, SOB, and DW armies (and possibly cominations of those).

Actually I'd be happy if they gave Purgation squads a good anti-tank/MC weapon, and lowered the cost of PAGKs and teleport attack squads.

Oh yeah and I want plastic

I want two or three codices. A single united codex would result in the following:

1) You can only have so many unit choices in a codex
2) If you've got three types of armies in one book you cut down on the options each can have in the different slots
3) If the codices are split, more slots are open to be filled with units and so each army can be better defined and developed creatively
4) Unit are balanced against each other, leading to "SoB troops better, GK Elites more powerful, Inq HQ overshadow the rest..." if you so much care about tournaments AND pure armies

I personally don't like the Sisters of Battle, so a single codex getting marred with them would be immensely disappointing.

But I'm not worried, GW employees have come out and said that the three factions were not getting compacted into one codex and just about every rumor right now points to a full-on GK/DH army, not combined forces.

I'd also like DW to have the captain/librarian still instead of the sarge

Yeah that was awesome. Worked out being quite expensive though. I also liked the ability to have one in each of your usual Marine squads. Added a lot of points to your army. But really gave you the ability to add some kick ass firepower.

Oshova

Kroothawk wrote:I'd rather have two Codices where the specialties of GKs (Elite Elite SM with psionics and assaulty stuff) and Sororitas (Ecclesia, including certainly some fanatics/redemptionists) are expanded. Even if I will miss the Inquisitors.

This. Separate lists will allow for more variety and unique units and models. Inquisitors and Assassins need to get their own mini-book in the old Heroes of the Imperium-style. Sororitas should be completely self-contained. Grey Knights too, except one unit of terminators can be taken as HQ or Elites as allies (again, in old school-style). Nothing beyond that.

I want to see some actual CC specialists for GK's
(they're not cc specialists in my eye until they at least get 3 attacks on the charge )

Edit I know the termi's do but what about a fast attack unit?

DEATH89 wrote:I want to see some actual CC specialists for GK's
(they're not cc specialists in my eye until they at least get 3 attacks on the charge )

Edit I know the termi's do but what about a fast attack unit?

Uh... don't they get 3 attacks on the charge with their S6 weapons thanks to NFWs and true grit?

What I would like to see is this

HQ/IC
Inquisitor Ira: Unlocks all of the Inquisitorial Forces
Brother Bob: Unlocks all of the Grey Knights
Sister Sara: Unlocks all Sisters
Billy Bob Death Watch: Unlocks all the Death Watch

Elites
Inquisitors: Assassins 0-1
Grey Knights: Terminators 0-1
Sisters of Battle: 0-1 Elite
Death Watch: 0-1 Terminators
Storm Troopers 0-3

Troops
Inquisition: Arbiters [with Marine Shotguns]
Grey Knights: Grey Knight Power Armor 0-2
Sisters: 0-2 Sisters
Death Watch: 0-2 Death Watch “Stern Guard”
IG style Veterans: 0-6

Ect.

It won’t be any more complicated/bloated as some of the others, but that won’t happen so I am not going to worry about it.

I actually like Anpu's idea. Would need some more refinement, but could work out pretty well.

Ostrakon wrote:
Uh... don't they get 3 attacks on the charge with their S6 weapons thanks to NFWs and true grit?

No. True Grit only works when they aren't charging. Basically, standard PAGK always have 2 attacks.

Which is why GK's should have A2...

I like Anpu's idea as well. It gives a sense of separation but also allow for unification without having to jump hoops with an allies system. As for 2A GKs, I'm not really sure if that would be wise, unless they get more expensive.

Pretty sure everyone thinks that it's going to turn out like Anpu describes...maybe not as defined as he put it...but as there already are restrictions on what you can take depending on your leaders already in the GK Codex it's not too far off...

Anyone think this has anything to do with Inquisition Deathwatch?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/02/40k-wfb-hidden-in-plain-sight.html

Luke_Prowler wrote:I like Anpu's idea as well. It gives a sense of separation but also allow for unification without having to jump hoops with an allies system. As for 2A GKs, I'm not really sure if that would be wise, unless they get more expensive.

you dont think they're expensive enough to swap true grit for +1 attack? Sternguard have 2A basic and look at all their toys for 25 points, Vanguard are only 20 points each and get 2A each, Wolf Guard are only 18 and they get 2A basic aswell.

GK's were a good deal in 3rd (i thought) but faced with equal points of any of those or even grey hunters or blood claws they will struggle, its not impossible to win with them like some seem to think but with basic troops being so cheap and well equipped now they are looking a bit strained

GK definitely need A2. Every Marine veterean has it. And GK are just that.

Plus it would cement their role as engaging their enemies in meelee which should be their forte. Shooting demons thats what the IG can do ^^.

So you based the point reduction on the fact that they don't have access to the same special weapons or cheap transport? I mean, I can see where you're coming from, but that's not how it works. You don't base the cost of a unit on the meta game, but on it's stats and abilities

True and I never claimed otherwise. Simply compared GK cost to the average in game troop cost in the scenarios I said, nothing more nothing less.
If there are certain slow people afterwards who keep yelling math doesnt work or that the game doesnt work like that, well I never claimed it does but soem people just dont get it and love to spew hate instead.

I specifically mentioned several times that GKs as they are against troops without upgrades are far more powerful (S6 attack and SB) and that it is the tiny difference in wargear options that skews things that much.
Ergo: It is very easy to fix without touching point costs to much...something I also mentioned.

It is also up to GW to bake in all this in the wider game mechanic picture.

But hey, its easier for retards like youknowwho to scream obscenities instead of grasping this but I understand that too, I was also 13 years old once.

So even with space marines shooting first, and not correcting for less GK's dying each round, that would be 2.6 GK's left vs 1.5 marines.

That was my point and that is also called point balance which I by now have proven beyond doubt. If you re read the above things and take them into context there is no problem with this.
As said, statline alone produce a very different set of balance then statline + wargear options. This is what I tried to highlite.
Granted I might have done it differently but the point remains.
Plus things really dont get improved when retards like Mr peebrain here start spewing hate from the first second. It just escalates.

You have proved absolutely nothing. Your conclusions are meaningless and your math is flawed. The more you clamor on about age, the more I'm convinced you are what you accuse others of being. Stop, just stop.

I think shrouding should be upgraded as well...there average sight on a squad right now is 30.5" if I remember right. Hardly ever helps at that distance...though I must say it has helped me win games.

I would like to see a Codex:Inquisition, Codex:Sisters of Battle, and Codex:Grey Knights myself. Make it so the Troops from the Sisters and Knights can be used at Elites in the Inquisition book to keep the blended feel if you want.

Of course I'm biased though as I've got a couple k points in Grey Knights, and would love a full Grey Knights book to expand my selection.

DEATH89 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:I like Anpu's idea as well. It gives a sense of separation but also allow for unification without having to jump hoops with an allies system. As for 2A GKs, I'm not really sure if that would be wise, unless they get more expensive.

you dont think they're expensive enough to swap true grit for +1 attack? Sternguard have 2A basic and look at all their toys for 25 points, Vanguard are only 20 points each and get 2A each, Wolf Guard are only 18 and they get 2A basic aswell.

GK's were a good deal in 3rd (i thought) but faced with equal points of any of those or even grey hunters or blood claws they will struggle, its not impossible to win with them like some seem to think but with basic troops being so cheap and well equipped now they are looking a bit strained

Well, Grey Knights are the only space marines I've played so I didn't really have something to compare. With that, it does seem like they need an additional attack

Also, just to compare notes, can we have why people want separate codexes? Because to me the "More units/expanded fluff" can just as easily be done in a combined codex

Because it *is* a limiting factor. You can only pack so much within a codex, and instead of being creative and expanding the choices each army has to offer you end up with a mish mash of various units and trying to field a pure army becomes a problem.

Imagine the following:
"Grey Knights could do with some anti-vehicle, they're pretty at it."
"Not really, the Sister troops in the codex handle them extremely well already."
"Alright then, let's leave this gaping hole in the Grey Knight! Players will just field some Sisters if they want AV."

And really, that's the issue: fielding a pure army, with its own strengths and weaknesses. Plus, not everyone likes both the Grey Knights AND the Sisters of Battle. I know I have zero interest in the SoB and would be annoyed at having to field some. That's why both codices were split, so that people who enjoyed one or the other could pick their favorite army.

But the real question is why should they be combined? We have Codex: Space Blood Wolves Black Angels, but having Codex: Grey Knights and Codex: Sisters of Battle is apparently a sin for some people.

My wish is for Codex: Grey Knights with an Inquisitor HQ, the various assassins and the Stormtroopers. They all mesh together extremely well, but the spotlight remains cast on the Knights.

Edit: And I've forgotten the most important point, Jervis said that there would not be a combined Inquisition codex

Ah. Well, I had assumed that a combined codex wouldn't force you to mix and match, instead lets you play a pure army or mix.

And to be honest, I not really interested in SoB, I'd just like the option without having to buy a separate codex.

Wait, when and where did Jervis say this?

Vhalyar wrote:Because it *is* a limiting factor. You can only pack so much within a codex, and instead of being creative and expanding the choices each army has to offer you end up with a mish mash of various units and trying to field a pure army becomes a problem.

Imagine the following:
"Grey Knights could do with some anti-vehicle, they're pretty at it."
"Not really, the Sister troops in the codex handle them extremely well already."
"Alright then, let's leave this gaping hole in the Grey Knight! Players will just field some Sisters if they want AV."

And really, that's the issue: fielding a pure army, with its own strengths and weaknesses. Plus, not everyone likes both the Grey Knights AND the Sisters of Battle. I know I have zero interest in the SoB and would be annoyed at having to field some. That's why both codices were split, so that people who enjoyed one or the other could pick their favorite army.

But the real question is why should they be combined? We have Codex: Space Blood Wolves Black Angels, but having Codex: Grey Knights and Codex: Sisters of Battle is apparently a sin for some people.

My wish is for Codex: Grey Knights with an Inquisitor HQ, the various assassins and the Stormtroopers. They all mesh together extremely well, but the spotlight remains cast on the Knights.

Edit: And I've forgotten the most important point, Jervis said that there would not be a combined Inquisition codex

1) Jervis also repeatedly denied that they were working on space hulk at the time of the whole "mystery box"

2) If a combined 'dex is impossible I would like to to direct your attention to the Chaos 'Dexs. A series of codexes that have accomadated FOUR different styles of play before the coming of Gav Thorpe and managed to successfully represent all 9 of the Traitor Legions as well as renegade Chapters. I tend to think of the Chamber Militant (which includes sisters,GK, and Deathwatch) as more of an armory rather than an army. Inquisitors can requistion anything in the course of their investigations and the Grey Knights books have sisters and Grey Knights fighting together on multiple occasions.

The Unending wrote:1) Jervis also repeatedly denied that they were working on space hulk at the time of the whole "mystery box"

Apples and oranges. I'm not sure how can can even try to compare someone coming out and saying "yeah, we're working on that" and "space hulk? I dun know nothing bout some space hulks" which was part of GW's new strategy of not revealing anything until the last minute. By your logic we should assume that, in fact, not a single new DE model has been sculpted, even though we've been told the opposite

Considering the sheer volume of whine and anger that the last C:CSM has generated from the lack of options and streamlining and removal of choices, you really picked a horrible example. So you want all 3 codices to be reduced to the level of bland that is C:CSM?

Chaos 3.5. I specifically said BEFORE the coming of Gav Thorpe.

EDIT: and since when were we talking about 3 codexes. Deathwatch has been suggested if that what your talking about?

Ah damn, my apologies. Well, as far as we know GW was quite happy with their new vision of the combined Chaos Space Marines when they released it, so it doesn't exactly inspire me with confidence.

Edit: I mean 3 in the form of the Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle and Inquisition. They are three distinct groups.

GK and the Inquisition are not separate entities. Grey Knights are the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus (and some hold membership in the Inner Circle), much like Deathwatch are the marine specialists of the Ordo Xenos.

Sororitas are indeed distinct, belonging to the Ecclesiarchy, and Ordo Hereticus has no official chamber militant. But given the nature of their quarry, they are far more likely to requisition help from the Sisters, local Arbites, etc.

On Ordos Xenos. From the new pictures released of the trip round Warhammer Worlds development area, we have seen that they are working on Deathwatch. However, can we believe these photos? They did appear on BoLS . . . lol

Oshova

That image was related to the RPG.

Bah! Dammit, got my hopes up there =[

Oshova

There's going to be a Deathwatch RPG? That's some good news, at least. :/

I believe it's as a part of the current RPG which GW dropped a week before the starter was released, but have still got another 2 expansions to release I believe.

Oshova

Not quite, have a detailed discussion on the RPG here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/268868.page
Actually the 40k RPG was always planned as having three stages: Inquisitor retinue, Rogue Trader, something with Space Marines (-> now known as Deathwatch).

Vhalyar wrote:Ah damn, my apologies. Well, as far as we know GW was quite happy with their new vision of the combined Chaos Space Marines when they released it, so it doesn't exactly inspire me with confidence.

Edit: I mean 3 in the form of the Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle and Inquisition. They are three distinct groups.

Inquisition will be a WD ruleset at best, not a Codex. One Inquisitor with a 5-man retinue is not an army. He may take control of an Imperial army, but he is no general (But then again, he can order an exterminatus for your battlefield). That's why GW wants to pull them out of the DH and WH Codex.

Inquisitors can be anything. There are Inquisitors that are Generals, with their own massive personal armies. And then there are Inquisitors who would prefer it if no one ever knew they were there.

Last?

You have proved absolutely nothing. Your conclusions are meaningless and your math is flawed. The more you clamor on about age, the more I'm convinced you are what you accuse others of being. Stop, just stop.

Ditto.

You dug up a topic just to say last? OK, that's just sad.

So here's an idea. If Xeno hunters get added, Radical Inquisitioners might have access to Xeno mercenaries, like Kroot and Ork Flash Gitz.

You dug up a topic just to say last? OK, that's just sad.

Nope, had no choice, was working and away for 4-5 days now. Before making sad comments yourself do some post research the next time.
Besides it was fun countering a pathetic comment with one of my own. You know when in Rome do as the Romans and all that...

OH MAN I AM PUMPED.

PUMPED.

Anyone else think the GK might get some equivalent to the BA Librarian dreadnought?



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The Unending wrote:
2) If a combined 'dex is impossible I would like to to direct your attention to the Chaos 'Dexs. A series of codexes that have accomadated FOUR different styles of play before the coming of Gav Thorpe and managed to successfully represent all 9 of the Traitor Legions as well as renegade Chapters. I tend to think of the Chamber Militant (which includes sisters,GK, and Deathwatch) as more of an armory rather than an army. Inquisitors can requistion anything in the course of their investigations and the Grey Knights books have sisters and Grey Knights fighting together on multiple occasions.

Most people consider the chaos codex a failure in that respect. GW considered it failure in that respect. The backlash from that failure was enough to make GW consider doing separate codices for some number of the big 4 chaos leagions. So to expand the statement made by others its impossible to make a combined codex that is good.

Oshova wrote:On Ordos Xenos. From the new pictures released of the trip round Warhammer Worlds development area, we have seen that they are working on Deathwatch. However, can we believe these photos? They did appear on BoLS . . . lol

Oshova

Maybe, but haven't there been pictures of plastic eldar warbikes circulating for 2+ years?

I picture or two won't mean much to me until I see it in an official announcement or in a GQ blackbox that the store owners get.

Remaining hopeful, though.

Weren't those Deathwatch pictures were for FFG's "Deathwatch" RPG?

They are. Deathwatch is still the red-headed stepchild of the GW family.

Something wrong with red-heads? lol

Oshova

Luke_Prowler wrote:You dug up a topic just to say last? OK, that's just sad.

So here's an idea. If Xeno hunters get added, Radical Inquisitioners might have access to Xeno mercenaries, like Kroot and Ork Flash Gitz.

Now THAT is an interesting idea! Maybe not units (that's too blatant even for the staunchest radical), but I can definitely see Xenos (particularly Eldar) members for their retinue.

GW's idea now seems to be to focus of Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights, rather than the Inquisiton. So its unlikely that we'd see alternatives to those core units in books that would focus on them.

Well, we still don't know how they will handle Inquisitors and their various assassins, daemonhosts, retinue, etc. with these new books. I'm hoping for the return of Chapter Approved. That would be the easiest, low-cost option for them, IMO. Repackage some of the existing models to be released with the WD, and viola!

It really makes sense to throw all the different types of Inquisitors together though...Inquisitors aren't Ordo Xenos, Hereticus, or Malleus...they are just inquisitors...and it well makes sense that if they had their own book...they should be allowed to call upon anything they have access to...of course that would also mean Imperial Guard and Marines...but we're definitely not going that far.

Generally that can be true. But the Lords generally are a lord of one not the others. Also the Inquisitors generally work for one lord, but will deal with any other problems that crop up along the way. So although they may be a Malleus Inquisitor, they may well focus on any Xenos or Hereticus issues that need sorting.

Oshova

Well, Malleus are a breed apart, IMO. From the fluff, they are far more likely to hunt other Inquisitors for corruption, and if a particular incident/situation actually escalates to a level where Malleus involvement is required (i.e. daemonic incursion), their response is rarely short of Apocalyptic.

Whether its in an unlikely combined book or individual SoB and GK books, I think Inquisitors are really the realm of special characters. I think a codex should have 2 or 3 flavors of each ordo of Inquisitor, each with unique special rule sets, but with some rule that would allow them to be used in other imperial armies, under particular conditions. With different flavors only usable by a specific army; like no psykers for one ordo hereticus Inquistor to be taken, but requiring a psyker battle squad for the radical ordo hereticus Inquisitor to be used by IG.

I personally don't even want it to even be able to be allies with IG.

Too many Guard players use DH as a crutch.

Inducted Stormtroopers are the closest thing to Guard that us Inquisitorial players need.

ductvader wrote:I personally don't even want it to even be able to be allies with IG.

Too many Guard players use DH as a crutch.

Inducted Stormtroopers are the closest thing to Guard that us Inquisitorial players need.

Your ignorance shines more brightly then the shining light of the Astronomicon. Bravo. Not only do you advocate that one of the most longstanding aspects of WH40K be removed, but also think IG should be a tier 2-3 army as a result. Wow.

I don't think it's a crazy idea to expect GW to remove the Allies rules; inter-codex dependence is something they're (undeniably) doing away with.
Neither do I think it's a crazy idea to expect GK and SOB players to want their codices to be balanced without the added weight and limitations of the IG and SM codex balance.

I don't think it's crazy to expect GW to do away with it either, but I think it would be a bad idea. The IG would lose their balance w/o a psychic hood and would be torn apart by psychic heavy armies as a result. Where do you see them doing away w/ inter codex dependency in the 5th ed releases so far?

Fluffwise, allies is a fairly good idea, and for the IG at least, it is fairly helpful, when you consider how psychic powers get more and more devestating to match the absurd counter measures armies are given against them (seriously... SW took a big steamy gak on every single Farseer that ever lived), Guard have nothing against that but ablatave wounds.

Kungfuhustler wrote:I don't think it's crazy to expect GW to do away with it either, but I think it would be a bad idea. The IG would lose their balance w/o a psychic hood and would be torn apart by psychic heavy armies as a result. Where do you see them doing away w/ inter codex dependency in the 5th ed releases so far?

C: Space Wolves and C: Blood Angels made references to C: Space Marine for wargear, which resulted in wonky things.

Fair enough. Wargear and induction are a smidgeon different but now I see where you're coming from.

I think the best approach is that any Codex that has allies, needs to just simply have included in it entries of the units that can be taken from another list. Each codex should stand on its own.

Ductvader is right when he says: "Too many Guard players use DH as a crutch. "

No other army gets to reach out of its book to cure its biggest limitation and weakness. I don't think IG are a low tier army, but any codex that needs a second codex to work and maintiain balance might as well be.

Thank you aka_mythos.

No one thinks IG are a lower tier army...I firmly believe that it is a codex that does not need DH to survive.

If and when Inquisition is released, I hope that it stands alone with all the might of the Emperor rolled into one army.

It just doesn't make sense the IG would want to or need to piggyback on that.

aka_mythos wrote:I don't think IG are a low tier army, but any codex that needs a second codex to work and maintiain balance might as well be.

I agree completely, and unfortunately I believe IG are exactly the army you are describing in that sentence. I'll shut up abut it now though, I've said it enough

Guard do not need allies to function. Although I guess it best to simply drop it, since any argument on the internet will not end well.

So I was wondering, if we do get separate codex, will they be released simultaneously or one at a time?

To be honest, I wouldn't mind allies staying, simply because I can use my Grey Knights as a boost to help get say... an IG army... started.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Guard do not need allies to function. Although I guess it best to simply drop it, since any argument on the internet will not end well.

So I was wondering, if we do get separate codex, will they be released simultaneously or one at a time?

One at a time, like GW has always done.

Mumbles around the internet on the codex coming out this fall...can't take it for granted...but when there's a paragraph about Grey Knights on pg 38 of the Blood Angels book...you have to wonder.

I WANT A GK STORMRAVEN!!!

Vhalyar wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Guard do not need allies to function. Although I guess it best to simply drop it, since any argument on the internet will not end well.

So I was wondering, if we do get separate codex, will they be released simultaneously or one at a time?

One at a time, like GW has always done.

Oh yay, because that's just what we need. Three space marine codexs in a row.

No one said it was next. So don't sensationalize.

Grey Knights are a world apart from Space Marines.

Congratulations Luke_Prowler, that was a wonderfully slowed train of thought. Yes, GW will obviously release these codices in succession. Woe be Dark Eldar, Necrons, Tau and everyone else, these codices (we don't know if it will be one, two or three) will take priority over all.

Sorry if that sounded trollish, I just don't like the idea of Grey Knights being released as a separate Codex.

I think I'd prefer;

Codex inquisition - the abillity to field INQUISITION units from all 3 ordos

Codex Grey knights - tittle says all

Codex Ecclarchy (Sp?) - sisters of battle and priests.

But the format their in now would also work.

Personally I'm hoping for a stand alone codex with no allies rules.

Allies sounds great and makes perfect sense fluff wise and at the time of the release everything is usually alright with those rules. However over time as things change, ally rules trend to move from being cool to being abused. Take the Psychic Hood for example, GW decided to limit their range instead of affecting the entire battlefield (good call), however because of the allies rules in place, everyone just stopped using the new versions and picked up allies that had the old versions when they want psychic defense. Until their codices are updated, there is really nothing anyone can do I guess. I mean when people usually say they have Inquisition allies, 95% of the time it is either an Inquisitor (or Lord version) or Grey Knight Terminators which just isn't right in my book.

I would like to see them drop all allies rules completely honestly. I will even say just drop the Inquisition all together and make Codex: Grey Knights and Codex: Sisters of Battle. Through I would miss my assassins (and I LOVE them), I think it would be better in the long run.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Sorry if that sounded trollish, I just don't like the idea of Grey Knights being released as a separate Codex.

Have to agree here, GKs without a strong Inquisition component sounds meh.

Well yeah...right now what do GK's have that is theirs?

Troops
Terminators
Stern and GrandMasters
Good Dreads
Storm Raven
Psycannon
Incinerator
LR
LRC
GK Special rules that are too daemon oriented

Not much that doesn't mimic space marines...

And besides that...all the fluff says grey knights and inquisiton work together on almost everything...read the omnibus...


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Don't get me wrong...I love grey knights as is.

They are my first and my most played army...but I want the inquisitors

First post ever on Dakka, but I follow a lot of the threads.

I hope when they redo the codex that they just round it out. As someone who plays Grey Knights, but doesn't like using IG allies, I think that rounding out the GK codex would be the best choice.

Although I am indifferent about them keeping/losing allies I would like to see a few more options to round off the army and make it viable as only Grey Knights.

ductvader wrote:Pretty sure everyone thinks that it's going to turn out like Anpu describes...

Everybody clamoring for One Book To Rule Them All wants an Anpu list.

Everybody wanting standalone Sisters and standalone Inquisition as separate books thinks the unlocking and such is unnecessary when dedicated Codices do away with the very notion.

Aside from the DC being 0-1 in C: BA, are there any other restricted units since C: Eldar that aren't Special Characters?


And really, if GW did a Anpu-style book, it'd be like this:

Elites:
Imp. Assassin, DCA
GKTs, GKPA
SoB Veterans, Sisters
DW Veterans
Inducted Marines, Inducted Guardsmen

Troops:
Stormtroopers (Arbites)

One Troops choice, massively overloaded Elites, and the HQs would simply allow you to take GKPA, or Sisters, Guardsmen, or Marines as Troops. Something like that.

ductvader wrote:Well yeah...right now what do GK's have that is theirs?

Troops
Terminators
Stern and GrandMasters
Good Dreads
Storm Raven
Psycannon
Incinerator
LR
LRC
GK Special rules that are too daemon oriented

Not much that doesn't mimic space marines...

I think they're very likely to get the Land Raider Redeemer. Venerable or Librarian dreadnought as well.

If we assume GW will be making the power armor Grey Knights and Terminators in plastic, I think its safe to assume that they'll try to make the most of the kits and give a number of new options, but those new options could very well only be available to a new unit entry. For example, if GK termies got a "GK Assault Terminator" squad with storm shields replacing storm bolter.

In that same vein I wouldn't be surprised if Grey Knight dreadnoughts get reworked with new options and rules, given a new kit, and emphasized similarly to the Blood Angels Codex where more than 3 can be taken.

I think it might be appropriate if GK got some sort of "lone wolf" type character, in the sense of it being a single powerful GK running around on his own. This could easily be done as an alternative to GK Librarians. They could carry the spirited imagery of the dragon hunting knights of a fantasy setting, with daemons treated as the equivalent to a 40k dragon.

Given the direction this edition has gone, I think there will be a good number of special characters. I could see GW doing another couple of the 13 Grandmasters, maybe a veteran sergeant, maybe a Chaplain-esque character. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a character who made Terminator GK a troop choice.

GK, genrally need more in the way of Heavy Support and Fast Attack choices. If GW wants to really push the Storm Raven sales, I could see it count as either depending on how GK equip it. Jet Bikes fit their imagery and singularly can fill in for jumppack, bike, and landspeeder options, and seem a popular solution.

Didn't even think about the characters...

Things I dream of:

I'd love to see something/anything that makes it easier for GK to live longer...yes they are in power armor...but these guys already cost so much more than and are supposed to be heartier than any marine...I think FNP or T5 on the troops would be exceptional. Or increase the effectiveness of shrouding...that works too.

GK are getting the StormRaven...no doubt there. I don't think it';; be heavy. Heavies might be Dreads, Penitents, SoB tanks, current heavy squads,and LR variants. I could see some stuff being shifted to the underused elite spot.

Incinerator Redeemers...woahdang.

I personally don't think dreads will be emphasized as much as BA...but I could see them getting a strength 10 force weapon...just makes sense to me...

Grey Knights assaulting out of deepstrike...I cold see it given taking a special character like Hector Rex or someone who similarly can predict the future accurately.

I don't forsee Dread drop pods...but teleporting dreads instead.

I think you will be able to take GK with a certain HQ and Sisters with another...Stormtroopers regardless of which side...you'll be able to work them side by side but the list may not mesh as well as otherwise.

Do away with allies. Inquisition based codex needs Inquisition based troops and weaponry...why would the inquisition bring in troops that would fall so quickly to corruption?

I don't see jet bikes being worked in...I feel that's just something people want because Grey Knights need either A:higher mobility or B:more anti-tank. Though the idea of jetbikes seems cool to me...I don't see a Grey Knight hopping on one and flying around rather than crashing one into a pile of bloodletters and slicing 4 of them up before they realize it. (Would be cool if they could dismount bikes or something of that sort...but that's never going to happen.) The Codex needs some speed though...I do not want teleporting LRs.

A lone wolf character...I don't see Grey Knights being so uncoordinated and feral...Sisters either...I think it would have to be a beefy inquisitor...with a company of death cultists...for the fun of it.

Just spitballing ideas for the fun of it...(^_^)

I think the easiest ways to improve the power armored Grey Knights survivability is to justify through fluff either a 2+ artificer armor save or a better invulnerable save. Also whats not to say GW doesn't come up with a veteran power armor GK squad that has such stat improvements over basic power armor GK.

The idea of a combined codex, came from a rumor that pre-dates more recent conversations with GW designers. On more than one occaision different designers have said that their intention with the Daemonhunter and Witch Hunter codices is to keep them separate books and refocus them on Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle, to down play the role of the Inquisitor.

So you really have to put yourself in the mindset of how to build a Grey Knight book with sprinklings of Inquisition. That said I don't really see too much cross over occuring between Gk and SOB. For example any thing a penitent engine can do a Grey Knight Dread will likely do better. Redundancy is exactly what the whole two book approach avoids.

I thought I made it clear, when I said lonewolf, I just meant in the sense of 1-3 models as a single unit that can act independent of each other sort of way. That would be abnormally power psykers on par with Librarians. That they would need a unique heroic slant, and the knightly image of a dragonslayer seemed appealing for this.

I think it would be interesting deviation from plain Grey Knights, if some option allowed for the taking of Excorcist space marines, that would have mild controled daemoninc mutations per their fluff.

What about Codex Custodes before any of the DH/WH or Codex Crimson Fists?

*Ducks*

Seriously I would love to see them redo GH and DH although I find Inquisitors really annoying and hate people suggesting I take them in my IG - I don't like them so I'll suffer as a result.

I'm all for banning allies.