Due to the vastness of Focusedfire's "Ideas for the next Eldar Codices" thread we've decided to compile all our ideas in a new thread. Myself and many others have been debating for months and we've decided to compile all our ideas so its more approachable for others to join in the discussion. Mahtamori has been working his balls off to compile the majority of our ideas into an article, The key points of which I will list below. If anybody has any suggestions of changes or complete overhauls that we could consider then feel free to chip in! Remember, nothing listed is set in stone and not all the suggestions are suggested to be ballanced when taken in collaboration with all other suggestions....thats for later! So if you have constructive criticism then feel free to tell us all that we're being stupid

Gorechild wrote:Right, a quick rundown of what we've covered so far and what is still left to sort out (updated 21/3/11):

HQ:
Autarch - Done
Farseer/SeerCouncil - Done
Avatar - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Hoec - Done
Eldrad - Not covered
Iyana - Done
Biel Tan guy - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Nahadu (sp?) - Done

Troop:
Dire Avengers - Done
Guardians - Done
Rangers - Done
Jetbikes - Done

Elite:
Howling Banshees - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Striking Scorpions - Not covered
Fire Dragons - Done
Harlequins - Done?
Wraithguard - Done

Fast Attack:
Warp Spiders - Done
Swooping Hawks - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Shining Spears - Done
Vypers - Done

Heavy Support:
Dark Reapers - Done?
Wraithlords - Not covered
Fire Prism/Night Spinner - Done
War Walker - Discussed but no real conculsion made

Dedicated Transports:
Wave Serpent - Done
Falcon - Discussed but no real conculsion made

Army-wide special rules/Army-wide alterations:
Fleet of Foot. Move Through Cover for Aspect Warriors. Skilled Rider/Skilled Flyer for jetbike/jump infantry Aspect Warriors. Aspect Warriors roll 2d6 and pick the highest when running.

Each Aspect squad has a mandatory Exarch. Guardian and Wraithguard squads have a mandatory Warlock. Rangers and vehicles do not have a mandatory "sarge" (much like Space Marines).

All units in the army gain +1 skill as appropriate to their intended use; Guardian Defenders and Dark Reapers gain +1 BS while Guardian Storm and Banshees gain +1 WS, for instance.
Another suggestion was +1 WS for melee aspect warriors and +1 BS for shooting aspect warriors, with Guardians of both types being kept at WS3 BS3.

Rending Shuriken Weaponry- The potential killing power of all rending weapons are increased by giving them the Rending USR. Alterations to units using these weapons may significantly change their individual potency. There is, for example, less foreseeable impact on Wraith Lords, but significant impact on Guardians or Dire Avengers. By improving the default weaponry of the core units in the Eldar codex you offer a different prospect than decreasing their price or improving their range, staying true to the high-risk-high-reward style of the Eldar race.

Improved Shuriken Catapult range-Increasing the range of Shuriken Catapults to 18". Improving the range of Shuriken Catapults significantly affects the viability of Dire Avengers, to whom improved range is not analogous to an improved design niche. The most glaring discrepancy of the current Eldar codex is the Guardian's potency as a high cost, yet very low reward unit. By improving the range of their basic weaponry, Guardians are better able to be the ranged infantry they are, avoiding melee if handled correctly.

Heavy Weapons to become cheaper- Reducing the cost of all Heavy Weapons, with the possible exception of certain already-cheap Shuriken Cannons, would have Eldar mandatory upgrades more in line with what other armies pay for equivalent power on similar fire-bases. The reduction in points must be assuming that each individual weapon discounted is not improved in other ways

Starcannon- Increase Starcannon attack to Heavy 3, This depends on other improvements not making the Starcannon significantly cheaper, and may mean that units which are currently BS3 may experience price increases if they are made BS4. This plasma weaponry's current flaw is that it is only useful if fired on Marines out in the open. Marines seldom stay in the open, and there are a significant amount of other armies where Marines are not prominent. By improving the weapon's number of attacks, the weapons killing power against Marines is not grossly put to shame when compared with the Scatter Laser and also functions against less armoured opponents, if then slightly cost-inefficient.

Exarch powers as psychic powers- Essentially, the risk of using a psychic power for an Exarch is the same as using a Gets Hot! weapon with 4+ armour save. Each major exarch power, such as Bladestorm, are boosted in effect to merit the risks involved in using them.

Craftworld specific special rules- Reintroducing specific rules for each major craftworld, keeping viability anb ballance between all the craftworlds has been a difficulty

HQ:
Farseer- Generally seen as being ok, Mind War ignores cover saves. Eldritch Storm becomes an anti-deepstrike power (mechanics for this not fully discussed).

Autarch- Outflanking army: Allow units arriving from reserve to enter from any non-hostile table edge. Army groups: Allows the Eldar player to roll for reserves for groups of units instead of individual units. Exact number of units per group, or how to handle transported units, is not determined.

Avatar- In addition to granting Fearless to nearby Eldar, the Avatar grants Stubborn to all Eldar units on the table in order to not so much force an Eldar foot army to stay in a small area. Avatar stats and combat abilities increased with price increased to match (the idea is to make the Avatar a God of War). proposed ability was to allow the Avatar to inflict an S4 hit on all units in base contact instead of attacking in melee.

Prince Yriel-

Eldrad-

Phoenix Lords- All Pheonix Lords get some form of invulnerable save. Pheonix Lords can make a squad of their aspect scoring. Phoenix Lords are no longer independent characters, but rather form the basis for an HQ unit. Each Phoenix Lord may be joined by up to 9 Aspect Warriors (4 in Maugan Ra's case) of their own aspect, where the Phoenix Lord acts in place of the Exarch. Equality for all, all aspects get one each.

Bone Singer- A Bone Singer is a support psycher with a special synergy with Wraithguard, Wraith Lords and vehicles. The psychic powers below are simply suggestions, the model would otherwise be very similar to a Farseer. One model or vehicle in contact with the Bone Singer is entombed, unable to perform actions until psychic power is ended. Would probably also protect the entombed.Repairs vehicle weapons and immobilizations. Resurrects Wraithguard and repairs Wraith Lords. Wraithguard and Wraith Lords in tight proximity / same squad, gain Feel No Pain. Provides area terrain, This terrain's size and danger to enemies is not determined. Improves the toughness or armour value of Wraithguard or Wraith Lord, or improves armour value of a vehicle.

Warlock- Removal of Seer Council,The Seer Council is proving to be a difficult obstacle in order to provide a serious boost for Guardian squad leaders or the individual Warlock psychic powers. Additionally, the Seer Council gives rise to crude tactics not quite benefiting an Eldar. Conceal is Stealth, Currently Conceal provides little meaningful benefit since terrain is recommended to be plentiful. Conceal may instead provide a squad with Stealth USR. Conceal like a Grey Knight, Conceal may instead provide a range limiter similar to night-fighting. The benefit here is that it clearly provides an incentive for the enemy to get within the range where Eldar is more comfortable, but does not provide a reliable or extra defence when the enemy is within that comfort zone. Psychic Ballistics Skill, In order to better adapt a Warlock to ranged Guardians, they would also need a psychic power which benefited them. Enhance could be modified to provide this, or a new psychic power introduced to keep Enhance from becoming a no-brainer. Warlock Proliferation- In order to make Eldar more Psychic, Warlocks may be purchased as an upgrade for all Infantry units (apart from aspect warriors). True Psycher, The Warlock psychic powers are improved to the point where they justify taking a psychic power test.

Elite:
Harlequins- Left for Codex: Dark Eldar to sort...but Codex: Dark Eldar didnt change them! need to discuss.

Striking Scorpions-

Banshees- Assault Drill: Banshees can assault after disembarking. Either an innate ability, or an optional Exarch power.

Fire Dragons- Flamer replacement or upgrade option for Fire Dragons in order to diversify their role.

Wraithguard- Moved to troop, possibly as an option when Bone singer is chosen as HQ. Changing CC attacks to power weapon, possible immunity to poison.

Troop:
Dire Avengers- Increase range, Increase RoF, add rending, add ignores cover or keep them the same. All depends on what changes are decided for shuriken weapons in general and changed made to guardians.

Guardian Jetbikes-

Rangers- Assault Snipers: Rangers are able to move and shoot, simple cost decrease; Rangers are good, but only in an environment with fewer tanks. A cost decrease would adapt Rangers to the reality where few units are not deep striking or being transported. Pathfinder is a "sarge" upgrade: A single member of the squad is able to upgrade to a squad sergeant who bestows the improved bonuses to the rest of the squad. Additional wargear may thus be enabled. Ranger disruption table, A lesser form of the ranger disruption table returns. Several possible iterations. Primarily to combat transports and deep striking.

Guardian Defenders & Storms- This is going to be a huge section, it is an integral part of the army. Also, please note the interaction between Guardian Defenders and Dire Avengers. What is agreed on is that Guardians are overpriced by a huge margin, some even argue that this was also the case in the previous codex as well. Note that Guardians are heavily affected by weaponry change suggestions! Decreasing the cost of the models: By decreasing the cost of the models to something close to what they are worth, estimated around 5 points, you gain a fair trade for your investment. This suggestion has the danger of going strictly against Eldar fluff in that people may start using Guardian blobs or Guardian bubble-wrapping. Increasing the possible number of platforms: By simply increasing the number of platforms, the Guardians (Defender) become a viable heavy weapon base where their own performance matters less. The key is to find a number of platforms, and the natural incentive to purchase them. Integral with this suggestion is that a platform with a Shuriken Cannon is free and that to upgrade this to something else you gain a discount compared to the price for purchasing each weapon with no trade-in. Merging Storms and Defenders by combining Guardian Storms and Defenders into a single model choice with equal capability of both units, you gain a diverse unit in an army which only offer specialization - but at the price of the unit not being particularly great at either role. Each Guardian would be armed with a Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Pistol and Close Combat Weapon. A small number of Shuriken Catapults may be upgraded to flamers or fusion guns and the squad may be accompanied by a heavy weapon platform. Improving Storm Guardian weapons: Guardian Storms would gain Chainswords (+1S). Alternatively, more exotic wargear could be given to them chosen among the non-exarch gear found in the rest of the army. Better saves; Eldar armour save begin with 4+ by improving Guardian armour to the same level as aspect warriors, citing that it makes no sense not to protect the most valuable assets the craftworld has if they have the capability to do so. An important aspect of this is that the aspect warriors do not gain better saves because of it. Grenades; Plasma Grenades, defensive grenades, and Haywire Grenades. Distribute as appropriate to the Guardians.Alternative squad leaders;Ranger Pathfinders may provide an alternative squad leader for Guardian Defenders, where a Warlock often fail in providing efficiency in the long-range game.

Fast Attack:
Vyper- Removal of open-topped, by removing open-topped status from Vypers, you remove an unnecessary vulnerability which gives none of a transport's benefits. Vypers are plenty easy to destroy with AV10 regardless. This is simply closing the gap to a Vyper's current cost by making them a fraction more durable. A Vyper squadron will likely succumb to massed Bolter fire, regardless. Vyper Jetbikes: Vypers are changed from being vehicles with very little protection into simply Jetbikes. This gives them the ability to fire both it's primary weapon and the secondary weapon as well as make a 6" move in the assault phase - but precludes vehicle upgrades. By changing Vypers to normal Jetbikes you play on Eldar's high-risk-high-reward style. They immediately become vulnerable to most melee and to strength 3 weapons, but the over-all durability against mid-power weapons such as Autocannons increase.

Swooping Hawks- Huge stumbling block, many different ideas have been looked at but nothing smmes to work, suggestions apprichiated.

Warp Spiders- Giving weapons the night spinners "monofilament wire" rule, changing weapon to blast or template have all been discussed. Changing strength and AP, giving the Rending USR.

Shining Spears- ability to arrive from reserve at will, no need to roll. Making weapons into power weapons. Making into TEQ/MC hunters.

Heavy Support
War Walkers- Move them to Fast Attack, Provided that no light version of the War Walker is introduced in the Fast Attack section. War Walkers are Scouts, and it is customary that Scouts are in the Fast Attack section - more importantly, the Fast Attack section is less crowded than the Heavy Support section. An additional advantage is that a pure foot army becomes infinitely more possible, adding much needed spread to fire-power by allowing both War Walkers and Wraith Lords without FOC competition.

Wraith Lords- No more twin-linking, Can buy the same weapon twice without twin-linking them. Easier twin-linking, A second weapon of the same sort is half as expensive. Twin-linked weapons aren't as powerful as two weapons of the same kind. Three for the FOC-price of one, Each FOC slot may provide room for up to three Wraith Lords. Each Wraith Lord is a unit of it's own for all other purposes. Improved Melee, Return of the 3 base attacks in melee OR by having Wraithsword provide bonus attacks (in which case double-blade becomes an option). The idea is that the Wraith Lord is FOC-slot ineffective and easily tied down in melee for a monstrous creature. Aspect Lords, Wraithlords are equipped according to their former Aspect. Each lord will also feature a slightly different statline to differentiate between the heavy and the light aspects. This is a rather large topic due to the number of itterations, but also requires the base statline for Wraith Lords to be decreased. For example a Spider Wraith Lord would come with double swords and a Mandiblaster, bumping it's base attacks up to 4, in addition to being able to infiltrate. A Spider Wraith Lord would have increased Strength of 8(9) and a high toughness of 8. The basic idea is also to cut down on the number of iterations, maybe so much as to only get one melee archetype, one ranged archetype, and one miscellaneous archetype, and allow for some variation.

Support Weapon Platform- Moved to Guardian Defenders. Heavy Weapon Platforms may be upgraded to support weapons, and as such a limited number of Support Weapons may be found in the Troop section instead. Lowered cost, lowering the cost drastically to reflect the relative difficulty at which these are used. Relentless, a major drawback of these weapons is that they are stationary (and expensive), This is a tactical upgrade. Improved performance, most of the Support Weapons perform poorly, and particularly the Vibro Cannon's rules are poorly written. Shadow Weaver need to be improved in the AP or special rules section. Vibro Cannon need to give proper benefit when adding more, and the rules for shooting on vehicles (particularly squadrons of vehicles) need to be re-written.

Dark Reapers- Slow and Purposeful, Can choose to be Slow and Purposeful or to move as normal each turn. While moving normally, Reapers may not move-and-fire. Relentless,
Contrary to Slow and Purposeful, Reapers are fully Relentless. Shared Vision, The missiles are guided and the Reapers may share vision between each other, if a unit is in line of sight of one Reaper squad, it is in line of sight of all Reapers in the squad, could possibly be expanded to be able to share vision from other units. One alternative is that a unit not in line of sight with the Reapers, but with a visual-link unit, gains a cover save but is not completely immune. Upgraded Reaper Launchers (fire modes), Reapers Launchers are changed to have a single-fire mode where you gain high-strength shots at the expense of rate of fire, this in order to better combat the lack of anti-tank when opting for Reapers.

Falcon Gravtank- Crystal Target Matrix, an alternative to the vehicle upgrade, this is offered as a unique upgrade to Falcons only; can shoot two weapons after moving up to 12". Dedicated Transport, Falcons are moved to be dedicated transports. Their relative similarity to Wave Serpents might be problematic. Assault Vehicle,While Falcons are not necessarily dedicated transports, they are considered assault vehicles meant to transport elite assault squads.

Nightspinner-

Fire Prism-

Transports
VenomThe name "Venom" is a work in progress. With the Dark Eldar now having Venoms, naturally a more animalesque name for Craftworld Eldar is more appropriate. Squadrons, The basic idea is for the Vyper to lose the cannon and to have a troop capacity, specifically for Banshees and Harlequins, maybe Scorpions. Each Vyper would be able to carry 2-3 models each, where Venom casualties would either also lose the models they carry or have the entire squad force a disembark. Solitary Venoms, This idea is to add open-topped assault vehicles for Craftworld Eldar. Naturally they wouldn't be very protected and succumb quickly to shooting, so cost would be low, durability would be left for cover saves, and life expectancy only long enough to give their squad a boost. Troop capacity around the 6 model mark.

Wave Serpent
Inertia Containment Compartment (Assault Ramp), optional upgrade, allows units inside to assault on a turn they disembark from the vehicle.

Well...Thats 31 pages of work cut down to a single post! Thanks to Mahtamori for doing most of the work but from here we can crack on with some more suggestions!

I'll keep adding to my article sporadically. If you spot something in this or the other thread that's not in the article, feel free to add it, just try to remember to make a brief explanation why and if there's any major issues that need to be dealt with.

(I have, so far, skipped the huge black that is the fast attack section, for instance. Jeeves, that section is a lot of trouble...)

@Mahtamori - Will do, but its probably best to put all our ideas in here first to help keep the article tidy.

After copying all of that out I'd really like to have a rethink for Harlequins. Seeing as we were expecting the Dark Eldar codex to update them before (and they obviously didnt). It gives us another unit to look at. Looking at CC probably means we'd have to collect ideas for Scorpions and Banshees too, along with the thoughts for an open topped transport maybe?

Well, the basic idea is that the compilation contain the "sane" ideas which have survived the benefit of doubt in the discussion thread(s).

Harlequins aren't all that bad in my guestimation, but rather the lack of assault vehicles in the Eldar codex. That said, I still haven't seen a single DE list make good use of Harlequins, so it might just be that GW chickened out and took the easy path when making the Harlequins for DE. Probably didn't want to risk CWE going back to clown mobiles.

Yeah, Scorpions and Banshees need a 5th edition make over, but I feel their concepts and over all armament are nice as is. Probably re-cost them around having 2 base attacks. Banshees are still very reliant on Doom, though.

I think I agree with everything. Everything I think I want from a 5E Eldar 'dex is represented here. Good work all round!

The thing is, with an open topped transport Harlequins would be pointless IMO. Their niche at the moment is a middle ground between Scorpions and Banshees that doesnt need a transport (god bless veil of tears). With a venom style transport, Banshee's would be faster and better VS MEQ and Scorps would be faster and better VS GEQ. They'd need somthing else to make them a decent choice.

I dont play Eldar, but i love the Dark Reapers (their name just sounds cool, their old SC is one of the best Eldar i have read about, IMO) and thought, along the lines of your "shared" vision, perhaps a cheap upgrade that allows them to have a "psychic link" to one of the HQs (the points would come from the reapers, not the HQ) thereby allowing them to use the HQs LOS to the target, thus negating any cover saves (if the HQ has clear sight to the unit being shot at)

Or, they could get the Split Fire rule, like the Long Fangs in the SW codex. So long as the Exarch does not fire, they may fire at up to 2 targets.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:I dont play Eldar, but i love the Dark Reapers (their name just sounds cool, their old SC is one of the best Eldar i have read about, IMO) and thought, along the lines of your "shared" vision, perhaps a cheap upgrade that allows them to have a "psychic link" to one of the HQs (the points would come from the reapers, not the HQ) thereby allowing them to use the HQs LOS to the target, thus negating any cover saves (if the HQ has clear sight to the unit being shot at)

Or, they could get the Split Fire rule, like the Long Fangs in the SW codex. So long as the Exarch does not fire, they may fire at up to 2 targets.

Maybe allowing them to draw LOS from any other Dark reaper unit? The splitting fire could make sense, but the issue is that DR squads are generally minimum size due to their high cost per model. If they were given a second tank poping mode of fire then it could be viable, but against infantry you really need to fire a whole squad at a unit to get a decent number of wounds through.

I think I wrote something similar down in the article. Another way to approach it is to allow Dark Reapers to fire indirectly full stop, but at reduced BS. This would allow the warriors to remain in use even when the exarch is using his barrage weapon.

Str 7 Starcannons would be in all ways better for Eldar than Heavy 3 Starcannons.

A glut of weapons who are all defined by Str 6 is just bad design. The 5 Eldar heavy weapons (shuriken cannon, star cannon, scatter laser, EML, bright lance) need to entirely different roles to play.

With S7 it becomes a Pulse Laser -1S, on the other hand. Some people have raised opinions that they'd like to see the pulse laser as a standard heavy weapon. Food for thought.

I think the biggest problem is that two of them are almost identical (Shuriken Cannon and Scatter Laser) while the Star Cannon actually perform a different role.

How'd you think about Scatter Laser being {Heavy 6 S4 Ap5}? Or, alternatively, the Shuriken Cannon change to that.

Shuriken cannon 24" 4 4 Assault 4, Rending
Starcannon 36" 7 2 Heavy 2
Scatter laser 36” 6 6 Heavy 6
Pulse laser 48” 8 2 Heavy 2, Lance

For Dark Reapers instead of split fire a rule that would make more sense and be way more helpful would be for them to ignore cover altogether and keep them otherwise the same except for maybe slow and purposeful.

I'd rather remove the reaper launcher altogether and give them back Missile Launchers.

That's another option but it completely changes the dynamic of the unit.

I'm a fan of Reaper Launchers as-is. The suggestion for a single-shot higher Str attack is a good one. Although, would it just be higher Str, or just a rule like 2d6 penetration?

I'd prefer the 2d6 penetration. It means that the Reapers can't become a "I deal out tons of ID" unit.

S7 starcannons is an interesting look - it very much puts them into a place they can act as a very effective AT weapon, penning a AV10 target on a 4+. As with many things, it depends very much on pricing, but a vyper with a S7 starcannon could really cause problems for 11/10/10 units.

Perhaps a S7 starcannon, a slight proliferation of the pulse laser, and an Ap1 or S9 brightlance is the solution to the eldar's ranged AT woes?

CC general thoughts:
Vehicles which can be assaulted out of generally come in two types: Tin cans that are open topped (orks, DE) and iron boxes that have assault ramps (land raiders). the effectiveness of the tin-can variety is attenuated by being ... tin cans. The effectiveness of LRs is attenuated by being expensive (250 pts).

I firmly believe that allowing a unit (such as banshees with appropriate power) to assault out of a 100-150pt transport, or allowing said transport to allow any unit to assault out of them, is a seriously bad idea given what the transport can carry in the eldar codex.

I don't feel that the inability to assault out of a transport is a serious drawback of the current codex.

As to the units themselves:
I feel all three units are fairly well balanced internally to the codex, but perhaps not to the 5th edition environment. I feel like the trick will be coming down on suggestions that improve all three units in a 5th edition context without disrupting the balance of power.

For instance, my favorite is harlequins, so one suggestion is their invuln becomes a 4+ invuln, but they are precluded from boarding any craftworld vehicle, and have no DT for themselves.

Scorpions - beasts at beating up horde units, but not elite units, make them 2+ armor, 4 initiative. They butcher hordes and vanish vs any sort of power weapon or rending attacks.

Banshees - always-go-first, enemy is WS1 first round of combat (no test at all) etc.

just ideas

Give striking scorpions fleet of foot and I'm happy. They're not really all that bad a unit. Perhaps come automatically with infiltrate.

Swooping hawks- A beautiful unit that just doesn't do much at the moment. They need a boost in utility. A couple ideas- have the option to take haywire blasters instead of the grenade pack, and Hit and Run standard. Lasblasters boosted to assault 3? Or perhaps simply a drop in cost per model.

I'd also like to see the Sustained Attack exarch power return, but that's probably going to stay in 3rd edition.

I would be happy if the only changes they made were:


A rule stating that eldar psychic powers can never be canceled on better than a 5+, or never better than 4+ but have to reroll the hooding ld test.
20-30 pts off the cost of waveserpents,
falcons made BS4
cheaper access to lance weaponry (45 pt tlbl or waste popints on a guardian squad hmmm)

The basic costs of the Eldar tanks aren't bad, it's rather the cost of the heavy weapons. 30 points for a Bright Lance at BS3? I do think a Wave Serpent should cost about 90 points, but the cost of the mandatory weapon should be lowered and the Shuriken Cannon should really be a defensive weapon. An interesting upgrade could be that the under-slung weapon could be upgraded just as the top weapon, but at a 33% lowered cost.

Falcons have the potential of becoming true gunships that you can't find in other places in the Eldar codex. Having dual weapons is not unique at all, that's what you get with Hornets and War Walkers, after all, but the real problem is that Eldar don't have Power of the Machine Spirit and a ridiculous amount of defensive weapons.
Here's a thought for Falcons:
Crystal Target Matrix - the Falcon may fire any functional weapons as long as it's able to shoot at least one normal weapon.
Weapon systems - Turret mounted left, turret mounted right, and under-slung weapon. All weapon systems may be armed with heavy weapons.
I.e. The Falcon is essentially able to shoot three heavy weapons if it moves 12" or less, regardless of weapon strength. Basic cost of the Falcon could be increased to around 90, Pulse Laser is not default armament and must be purchased separately.

Reapers with normal Eldar Launchers is extremely tempting and does suit Eldar in the way of excessive dedication. They are currently armed with an equivalent of some sort of plasma weapon, but with straight up Eldar Missile Launchers the basic Dark Reaper is going to be worth while - even if they can't move-and-shoot.
The big question is, though, that since Dark Reapers are the equivalent of Devastators, what makes them special? Eldar equivalents are usually not as durable but have a twist you don't find with Marines at the expense of less adaptivity. If the Eldar equivalent of Devastators aren't going to be allowed to be adaptive, what sets them apart?
Currently the Dark Reapers are set apart by their Exarch having one awesome weapon, while the rest of the squads are extra wounds. Expensive extra wounds.

Hornet added as standard codex unit!

Wow were a little bit all over the place! There seems to be a lot of intrest in the heavy weapons/heavy support so maybe its a good idea to look into that in a bit more depth first.

DarknessEternal wrote:Str 7 Starcannons would be in all ways better for Eldar than Heavy 3 Starcannons.

A glut of weapons who are all defined by Str 6 is just bad design. The 5 Eldar heavy weapons (shuriken cannon, star cannon, scatter laser, EML, bright lance) need to entirely different roles to play.

I agree, S6 weapons seems to be Eldars "thing" as far as defining the army goes, but it does lead to a lot of difficulties as their role's often seem to overlap. Something needs changing but its just a matter of seeing what's most appropriate and how to get rid of the ranged anti-tank issue.

Mahtamori wrote: With S7 it becomes a Pulse Laser -1S, on the other hand. Some people have raised opinions that they'd like to see the pulse laser as a standard heavy weapon. Food for thought.

I think the biggest problem is that two of them are almost identical (Shuriken Cannon and Scatter Laser) while the Star Cannon actually perform a different role.

How'd you think about Scatter Laser being {Heavy 6 S4 Ap5}? Or, alternatively, the Shuriken Cannon change to that.

I think the weaker but high ROF would be more fitting for a shuriken cannon. coupled with a bladestorming DA unit, a S4 AP5 Heavy 6 twin-linked cannon would be great. Then all shuriken weapons would be S4 (just makes stuff simpler). I'm all for pulse lasers being more widely available, but I think Brightlances would need a change to make them stand out more.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Shuriken cannon 24" 4 4 Assault 4, Rending
Starcannon 36" 7 2 Heavy 2
Scatter laser 36” 6 6 Heavy 6
Pulse laser 48” 8 2 Heavy 2, Lance

As I just said, I think S4 AP5 Heavy 6 would be more fitting for shuricannons.
With your suggestion I cant see why anyone would choose a starcannon over a pulse laser (unless it was significanly cheaper). The higher ROF makes them into very decent TEQ killers, whereas the higher strength makes them into inferior pulse lasers.
I think Scatters are fine as they are, they are good at transport hunting on rear armour and somthing needs to keep that role.
Pulse laser is okay, nothing groundbreaking, but would have some practical use. Not sure about Lance though

I'd like to see S9 AP1 Heavy 1 Lance for a Bright lance, I see it as the best way to sort out the ranged AT issue.

Gwyidion wrote: S7 starcannons is an interesting look - it very much puts them into a place they can act as a very effective AT weapon, penning a AV10 target on a 4+. As with many things, it depends very much on pricing, but a vyper with a S7 starcannon could really cause problems for 11/10/10 units.

Perhaps a S7 starcannon, a slight proliferation of the pulse laser, and an Ap1 or S9 brightlance is the solution to the eldar's ranged AT woes?

I think it very much depends on the role we want the star cannon to play, you and Darkness seem to be thinking along the same lines, but I dont really see the need for more anti-AV10/11. The Brightlance sugestion I really agree with.


Ok...On to Reapers!

rivers64 wrote:For Dark Reapers instead of split fire a rule that would make more sense and be way more helpful would be for them to ignore cover altogether and keep them otherwise the same except for maybe slow and purposeful.

there is an exarch power for ignoring armour, maybe that should just be adapted so that it effects the whole unit rather than just the exarch? It would go a LONG way to making them a very good choice IMO.

Darkness Eternal wrote:I'd rather remove the reaper launcher altogether and give them back Missile Launchers.

As Mahtamori said, that would completely overhaul the unit, whilst still being an option, I dont see that they are in enough of a mess that they would need it (they are more viable than SHawks after all ). I think their main issues lie in the fact they are so darn expensive and that half of the time only the exarch gets to fire. Both of which are easier to fix than re-writing the unit.

Mahtamori wrote:Reapers with normal Eldar Launchers is extremely tempting and does suit Eldar in the way of excessive dedication. They are currently armed with an equivalent of some sort of plasma weapon, but with straight up Eldar Missile Launchers the basic Dark Reaper is going to be worth while - even if they can't move-and-shoot.
The big question is, though, that since Dark Reapers are the equivalent of Devastators, what makes them special? Eldar equivalents are usually not as durable but have a twist you don't find with Marines at the expense of less adaptivity. If the Eldar equivalent of Devastators aren't going to be allowed to be adaptive, what sets them apart?
Currently the Dark Reapers are set apart by their Exarch having one awesome weapon, while the rest of the squads are extra wounds. Expensive extra wounds.

The idea of reapers just becoming Eldar Devastators is HIGHLY unappealing to me. I (like Grakmar) am a fan of the reaper launcher. Its one of the few units that is a blatent middle finger to SM's. Giving them S+P, re-wording the Exarch powers and changing the points value to a more 5th ED friendly level is all I see that needs to be done.

Soooo much easier to read now

Good work. Will have a read through when I get home from work.

I have a feeling that your suggestions for Wraithguard might be a bit much, they're annoying to kill as-is, with power weapons it'd be almost impossible.

Not really. My Wraithlord is dropping consistently on turn 1 almost every game I've used it. It has almost neer gotten into close combat. If anything what I would say for it would be give it a 4++ invulnerable save and then add a rule that makes it immune to poison as it isn't really alive anyway soo this makes sense fluff wise as well.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I have a feeling that your suggestions for Wraithguard might be a bit much, they're annoying to kill as-is, with power weapons it'd be almost impossible.

Yes, they're annoying to kill, but they are also quite impotent at killing due to having a close threat range that is easily negated by going straight into melee.

Their biggest problem is that they are cost-ineffective. Sure, if you let them shoot they can make a Land Raider regret it, but it's not difficult to stay away from a 12" weapon on a model that prohibits transportation and makes cover saves difficult to acquire. The general argument was to either let them follow fluff to gain close combat weapon (using logic that they are just shy of monstrous creatures, and significantly stronger than most human-sized beings) or drop their points.

I wouldnt change the warp spiders at all, except give them ap6 so their better at taking down tanks.

The suggestion of modifying all the eldar heavy weapons is possible.

BL: 8/2 36" 1 Heavy, Lance
PL: 8/2 36" 2 Heavy
SC: 6/2 36" 2 Heavy
SL: 6/- 36" 4 Heavy
ShC: 6/5 24" 3 Heavy
ML: 8/3 48" 1 Heavy
4/4 48" 1 Hvy Blast

Looking at this (and considering DE codex similarities) and again assuming vehicles go to BS 4 but guardians stay BS 3, we are proposing making the PL the replacement for the BL.

S6 makes all the eldar weapons in that category pretty much a choice of shots vs AP vs Range and Cost.

I say leave the shuriken cannon as is but add rending. This makes it short ranged, multi-purpose and a cheap tank killer.

So we come to scatter laser and starcannon. The starcannon could become a dedicated MEQ killer like the DE destructor (or whatever it is called now) S5 AP2 ROF 3
It moves it off the anti-tank line but restores ROF and makes it a MEQ-killer choice. I don't think it should be S7 as SM plasma is that and brings Get's Hot rule also they are generally Rapid Fire or Heavy. Tau tune it down to S6 and avoid the Get's Hot but are still rapid fire.

Now to differentiate the Scatter Laser, to me there are a couple options. Make it an extreme ROF but Low Strength weapon but make it a troop killer and a poor anti-tank choice. Perhaps a 36" 5/6 Heavy 6.

So proposed.

ShC: ROF 3 R 24" 6/5 Rending
SL: ROF 6 R 36" 5/6
Star: ROF 3 R 36" 5/2

BL and PL fill the true anti tank options.
EML, ShC fill a jack-of-all-trades role with low cost and lack of range being the defining role of a Shuriken Cannon.

This puts Scatter Lasers and StarCannons in an anti-infantry role with limited anti-tank capabilities. The impressive ROF of scatter lasers is off-set by the fact that they really can't punch anything. While a star cannon gives you the anti-MEQ shooting without overpowering anti-tank because of the strength.

Gorechild wrote:
With your suggestion I cant see why anyone would choose a starcannon over a pulse laser (unless it was significanly cheaper).

Pulse lasers are only on Falcons and Hornets anyway, so that's a non-issue.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Gorechild wrote:
With your suggestion I cant see why anyone would choose a starcannon over a pulse laser (unless it was significanly cheaper).

Pulse lasers are only on Falcons and Hornets anyway, so that's a non-issue.

Not explained. This is compilation from the last posting. It was suggested to replace the bright lance with pulse laser as the platform weapon choice. With WS 3 on guardians, I agree this would actually be more useful.

Costs: We had discussed something like Free Shuriken Cannon then going up from there. Something like +5 Scatterlaser, +10 EML or Starcannon, +15 Brightlance and/or Pulse Laser.

Definitely give the bright lance ap1 and make it worth 20 pts and I'm fine.

It's worth more than 20 points now, at least according to the mathematical model set forth in Codex Space Marines (which may as well be the bar for everything pointswise). 25 for BS 3, one weapon units. More for multi-weapon units like War Walkers and Hornets.

It would be worth much more at AP 1.

Not on a guardian squad. Maybe more for people who can take it in droves.

A weapon like Bright Lance actually loses in value if you spam them in a single squad since a LOT of shots will be wasted. 6 Bright Lances in a War Walker squad is a bit of over kill (much like how more than 5 Fire Dragons are over kill). The question is how much you're willing to pay for reliability.

Regardless, the foundation for the suggestion of severely discounting heavy weapons for Guardians was that Guardians would never be in a suitable place on their own, and as such their high price (which is something desirable for Eldar) would be returned in cheap platforms.

Side-stepping: Btw, what if Shuriken Catapults were Assault 3? Dire Avengers would keep their range advantage, only Guardians would be more killy at short range. (Naturally, Blade Storm would lose it's significance and Dire Avengers would need to be increased in cost)

Back again: I still desire an upgrade to vehicle's defensive weapons. The twin-linked pea-shooter isn't cutting it, and once troops are on the ground a large amount of defensive weapons is nearly necessary (although you could argue that's when you dislodge troops from the hold).

Yeirls should be eternal

rivers64 wrote:Not on a guardian squad. Maybe more for people who can take it in droves.

Probably a good time to explain we were assuming a change to allow guardians to take 1 heavy weapon for every 5 guardians (dont know if I put that in the original post).

With the ability to take more weapons per squad they would become a reasonable investment just for sitting back and sniping.

I'm not sure about points but if were saying the Shuricannon comes free what would you think about:

Brightlance - Range 38" S8 AP1 Heavy 1 Lance
Pulse Laser - Range 38" S8 AP2 Heavy 2
Scatter Laser - Range 32" S6 AP6 Heavy 4
Shuriken Cannon- Range 32" S4 AP5 Heavy 6
Star Cannon - Range 32" S6 AP2 Heavy 3

I'm not sure I agree with your suggestions for Wraithguard. You already have a T6 unit with a Warlock, which has a gun that wounds on 2s against *anything* and inflicts ID on a 6, and you want to give them power weapons AND immunity to poison as well? Unless these models rocket to 45-50 points each I doubt very much I'd be happy with them getting such a buff.

I think a very simple alteration would be to give each model another wound each, to further represent their sturdiness, and maybe, MAYBE another attack to better come out on top in an assault (although this does go against the grain as to what the unit is designed to do IMO).

L. Wrex

Constructs like wraithguard and wraithlord to me can stay brittle. Yes tough but if a weakness is found they just fail to work. I like FNP for a bit more resiliency. If you don't bring power weapons, FNP T6 S5 wraithguard will be a break-even choice at best to get in HTH. OTOH they are still not an eldar terminator as they get owned by TH and PF armed units.

Wraithlord, if also given FNP, are more resilient but still can be taken down by Las and melta fire. My problem with them is the lack of punch in HTH. I would like to see a change on the sword so that it grants an additional attack and the baseline of attacks goes to 3. So if you outfit a wraithlord with a sword it will be packing 4 attacks.

Gorechild wrote:
Probably a good time to explain we were assuming a change to allow guardians to take 1 heavy weapon for every 5 guardians (dont know if I put that in the original post).

Well, that's a terrible idea. Eldar should never be encouraged to be a horde army. Heck, Guardians should be limited to 10 in a squad at most.

Gorechild wrote:
Scatter Laser - Range 32" S6 AP6 Heavy 4
Star Cannon - Range 32" S6 AP2 Heavy 3

This can't be allowed to happen. This problem has been plaguing Eldar since they got a codex in 3rd. Multiple str 6 weapons with different AP is bad design.

It isn't so much encouraging manifold amount of Guardians so much as making having varying amount of Guardians have impact. At the moment I haven't seen a single tactics page actually mention using Guardians (only as an unlocker for a *single* heavy weapon). Tying the number of heavy weapons you get per squad to the number of Guardians you have leaves you with more of a choice, the max number of Guardian models isn't set in stone and it is indeed healthy to decrease the max number to 10 (i.e. 2 heavy weapons) if you allow more heavy weapons.

Multiple S6 weapons isn't bad design if there's a difference between them. For instance, the practical difference between current Shuriken Cannon and Scatter Laser is less than the current OR proposed Scatter Laser and Star Cannon. Ap2/3 versus Ap4+ is a world of difference.
If anything, it's the Shuriken Cannon that needs changing in order to break the multi-S6 options.

However, having Star Cannon at Heavy 3 with Scatter Laser Ap6 at Heavy 4 is bad design from a completely different reason (I'm ignoring to-wound and to-hit rolls):
Star Cannon (3) against IG: 3 unsaved wounds.
Scatter Laser (4) against IG: 2.3 unsaved wounds.
Even if the Scatter Laser is significantly less expensive, the Scatter Laser against non-vehicles have a significantly harder time "earning it's money back" on the simple basis that they're mounted on a unit that's more expensive than a Star Cannon. Star Cannon will simply move up as the obvious choice.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Gorechild wrote:
Probably a good time to explain we were assuming a change to allow guardians to take 1 heavy weapon for every 5 guardians (dont know if I put that in the original post).

Well, that's a terrible idea. Eldar should never be encouraged to be a horde army. Heck, Guardians should be limited to 10 in a squad at most.

Well if you care to read the article then you'll realise we were saying to lower the squad size. If your going to pull apart everything without even reading what were talking about then there isn't much point. In the last thread we talked for pages about ways to discourage huge horde armies (and in the article and my first post), Your mistaken if you think I'm wanting to turn the "dying race" into a horde army...thats just dumb.

Although in all fairness, the suggestion to simply dump the price of Guardians was raised, and it is a valid one - provided GW retcons some lore to achieve it.

Given you also lower the maximum squad size. Otherwise, at 5-6 points per model you could get 120 guardians for 600 points. Otherwise its so un-fluffy it hurts.

@Darkness Eternal
The suggestion before was to limit guardian squads to 10 or maybe 15.

I also agree that everything at S6 is bad. My suggestion
from before was an attempt to separate them.

Lower the strength of scatterlaser and starcannon but leave their AP the same and raise both their ROF. By having a strength less than 6 they become troop killers and defensive weapons but lose their AT capability.

As it stands today, you might as well eliminate starcannons and shuriken cannons as there is very little reason to take them when the scatterlaser provides you the best ROF and good range for the cost.


Leave the shuriken cannon as S6 AP4? ROF3 and add rending. It is the base. It is the shortest range. Finally it is based on the core shruriken technology.

This puts: Bright Lance, Pulse lasers as the true AT weapons.

Scatterlaser and starcannon are infantry killers.

EML and Shuriken cannon are left as the multi-purpose weapons and each offers different benefits.

Gorechild wrote:Given you also lower the maximum squad size. Otherwise, at 5-6 points per model you could get 120 guardians for 600 points. Otherwise its so un-fluffy it hurts.

There is also the suggestion of using Guardians as auxiliaries. I.e. minimum squads with limited equipment options (it's Eldar, they already have minimum equipment options). It could work, but the question is how it'd handle and if it would make sense.

How bout for guardians making them 10-15 per squad and if you take a maxed squad you may take two heavy weapons, otherwise 1. Also I really like the idea of str 7 starcannons but rof 2 still. For wraithguard give them an invulnerable save of 5++, immunity to poison, and 18" range.

rivers64 wrote:How bout for guardians making them 10-15 per squad and if you take a maxed squad you may take two heavy weapons, otherwise 1. Also I really like the idea of str 7 starcannons but rof 2 still. For wraithguard give them an invulnerable save of 5++, immunity to poison, and 18" range.

Okay, we were initially thinking guardians would be purchased as 5 guardians with a Warlock and Shuriken cannon platform for say 70 points, then allowing 5 more guardians to be added for 8 points each and add another heavy weapon platform for every 5 guardians in the squad for X points. We also suggested that a squad with a HWP coudn't be transported in a vehicle. That would make a foot slogging squad somewhere around 125 points depending on warlock powers and heavy weapon options.

DAaddict wrote:
I also agree that everything at S6 is bad. My suggestion from before was an attempt to separate them.

Lower the strength of scatterlaser and starcannon but leave their AP the same and raise both their ROF. By having a strength less than 6 they become troop killers and defensive weapons but lose their AT capability.

I'd suggest that if we are going that way, it would make more sence to lower the strength of the shuriken cannon. As they are the main underslung heavy weapon it would allow them to be used as defensive weapons. You could then keep all shuriken weapons (pistol, catapult, avenger catapult, cannon) as S4 and just change the ROF and give the cannon rending.

Gorechild wrote:
I'd suggest that if we are going that way, it would make more sence to lower the strength of the shuriken cannon. As they are the main underslung heavy weapon it would allow them to be used as defensive weapons. You could then keep all shuriken weapons (pistol, catapult, avenger catapult, cannon) as S4 and just change the ROF and give the cannon rending.

If there is an aversion to all S6. I could handle the Shuriken Cannon as a defensive weapon but I like it outclassing shuriken catapults.
Likewise the scatterlaser needs to fit in the eldar pantheon of las weapons. My preferred "fix" for the nerfing of weapons fire from vehicles is to bring back
the venerable Crystal Targetting Matrix with it's effect being a second weapon of any class can fire as long as one weapon can fire.


So Shuriken Catapult base S4 R18" A2 as suggested Rending.
Shuriken Cannon R24" seems good but I don't want it to just turn into a gatling catapult with S4 Rof +++ So I am still leaning on S6 A3.

Las tech: Lasblaster S3 24" A2. Scatterlaser S? 36" A? Pulse Laser S8 36" A2. This- fluffwise - has always seemed to be geared at anti-personnel work so - for me -
S4 or 5 makes sense then looking at the model with 6 barrels give it a descent ROF for 4 to 6. (Lower S, Higher ROF) To gear it more for anti-personnel and avoid being a mass-ROF catapult, I would lean to S5 and a ROF of 4 or 5 to avoid becoming just a 3-in-1 shuriken catapult.

Taking the Dark Eldar vehicle weapon as an guide, I would like to see the plasma-tech starcannon not be an all-purpose weapon rather become a bane to Space Marines but not an anti-tank weapon. So to me the S5 AP2 or 3 ROF 3 or 4.

Now while a shuriken cannon is not a bright lance it can perform as a stop-gap AT weapon with ROF 3 S6 and rending and still be a good anti-personnel weapon. The thing with the shuriken cannon is it is short ranged and not as focused as the other options. If scatterlasers become S5 ROF 4 or 5 they have better range and put down more fire so GEQ will not like them. Likewise for MEQ killing a starcannon is the best but in a pinch a shuriken cannon can hold it's own and it also rends.

Pulse Laser ROF versus Bright Lance getting the Lance rule makes for your best AT because of Strength but do come at a cost. Meanwhile if you want better tank-killing power but want some infantry protection, the EML is probably the best general purpose weapon.

Do something where the shuriken cannon becomes the Jack-of-All-Trades choice but there are better options if you have a specific job in mind. If we modify scatterlasers and starcannons as above I like that the shuriken cannon stays S6 and is just a tad better than the other two at AT work but it is not anywhere in the
league of pulse lasers, bright lances or EML as a dependable heavy AT weapon.

Mahtamori wrote:Although in all fairness, the suggestion to simply dump the price of Guardians was raised, and it is a valid one - provided GW retcons some lore to achieve it.

It could be made similar to high elves and GW say that all eldar citizens are trained thouroughly in the art of war, as they are a dying race and need all the numbers they can get. Those better with a gun become guardian defenders and those better in melee become storm guardians. As a result both could get a boost. E.g. higher BS for guardian defenders and furious charge for storm guardians.

Eldar Own wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Although in all fairness, the suggestion to simply dump the price of Guardians was raised, and it is a valid one - provided GW retcons some lore to achieve it.

It could be made similar to high elves and GW say that all eldar citizens are trained thouroughly in the art of war, as they are a dying race and need all the numbers they can get. Those better with a gun become guardian defenders and those better in melee become storm guardians. As a result both could get a boost. E.g. higher BS for guardian defenders and furious charge for storm guardians.

I'm actually a fan of Eldar Guardian horde armies.

It fits from a fluff perspective if you assume they're more dying than typically thought. Just imagine that the population is so bad off that Aspect Warriors aren't in high enough quantities to field an army. So, Eldar have to rely on their last line of defense: The simple peasant. It's not what they'd like to do, but it's that's their only remaining option.

Everything S6 is bad, but reducing scatter lasers and starcannons S value isn't the answer. We need to improve eldar ranged AT, not neuter it.

How about:

Shuriken Cannon: S6 Ap4 R24" Heavy 3, Defensive
Scatter Laser: S6 Ap6 R36" Heavy 4
Starcannon: S6 Ap2 R24" Heavy 3
or
Starcannon: S7 Ap2 R36 Heavy 2 (this is an anti-MC, anti-tank weapon - the heavy 3 version above is an anti meq/teq weapon)
Pulse Laser: S8 Ap2 R48 Heavy 2
Brightlance: S9 Ap2 R36 Heavy, 1 Lance

Summarized: If its a tank and you want some S6 fire, its shuriken cannons. If its not a tank and you want some S6 supporting fire, its scatter lasers. (I like S7 starcannons) if you want some transport/anti AV10/11/anti MC fire, its a starcannon. If its anti AV11/12, its a pulse laser, and if you need to kill an AV13+ target, its a brightlance.

Wraithguard: They are overpriced now. Their weapons get a round of shooting, if that. Their role is to take a charge and wait to be rescued (hey, it works well, I only play wraithguard). For a 400pt unit, they need to do more. Their resilience is ok. I think giving them an invuln is a bad plan, as it makes them stupidly tough. They shouldn't be able to just go toe-to-toe with thunderhammers and not worry about it - neither should wraithlords.

Wraithguard: WS/BS 4, S6 T6, W2 I3 A2 Ld10 3+
Wraithlord: WS/BS4 S10 T8 W4 I2 A3 Ld10 2+

Wraithbone Construct: The unit is composed entirely of animated wraithbone, turning aside all but the sharpest claws and most powerful weapons. Weapons which wound on a fixed value wound on a 6+ instead of their normal value.

Fearless

Wraithcannon: SX Ap2 R18 Assault 1 - always wounds on a 2, glance 2+, pen 5+
Wraithsword: 1 gives rerolls, 2 give +1 A, rerolls.
Flamers on WLs are heavy flamers.

2+ armor on wraithlords makes them much much much more resilient to missle fire, but no more resilient to rending, lascannons, or plasma.

immunity to poison simply establishes them back to where they were pre-tyranid and DE codex - if you want to kill them easily, you'll need heavy weapons or heavy CC units.

I strongly believe the units will not be viable in the next codex unless they are immune to poison.

CCwise, the CC/flamer lord gets a big buff, going from 2 A base with rerolls, to 4A base with rerolls (if you buy two swords) and heavy flamers besides. The wraithguard get a bump to S6, making them able to choke out multiwound T3 models (i can't think of a single time in all of my games this would have mattered), and getting an extra attack. This makes them better at getting out of tarpits vs T4 and T3 generic units, but will have essentially no effect in combats in which they would die anyway (because they are only I3. I don't think anyone is going to be shivering in their boots over 20 S6 attacks. They are not powerweapons, terminators will laugh at them (as will genestealers, tyranid MCs, and pretty much anyone else except for a marine tac squad).

Things I feel should be avoided at all costs:
giving wraithlord or wraithguard invulnerables of ANY kind (exception if an HQ wraithlord appears)
giving wraithguard power weapons
giving wraithguard or wraithlords FNP (FNP is denied by any weapon which denies armor saves, which is 95% of all the weapons wraithguard and wraithlords care about anyway. FNP is an upgrade to wraithunits which confers essentially no benefit but we'll have to pay for. please, no FNP)

Things that will be fun to look at:
giving wraithlords access to the pulse laser (maybe 2x pulse lasers?)
giving wraithlords access to support weapons (D-cannon!!!!)
variant wraithguard - exchange wriathcannons for executioners, conferring +2 S and power weapons status to attacks (combine this with enhance and i believe thats a WS5 S8 I4 statline. Could be interesting to see these make an appearance (still no invulnerable save!).

At this point, I don't feel Brightlances can be changed thanks to Dark Eldar. Str 8 AP 2 is what they are.

by that metric, anything with a mirror in DE will never, ever change.

Hey guys, just a bit input on the summary...

First of, I'm willing to bet the Farseer will have 2 wounds in the next codex. Just getting that out there...

And about heavy weapons...

I'm firmly in the "enough S6 weapons already!" camp. Starcannons need to be S7. S6 is NOT a reliable way to kill AV10/11. It is a reliable way to kill basic infantry.

So I'll reiterate what others have already said:

Brightlance: S8 AP1 R36" RoF1, Lance
Pulse laser: S8 AP2 R48" RoF2
Starcannon: S7 AP2 R36" RoF2
Scatterlasers: S6 AP6 R36" RoF4
Shuriken cannon: S6 AP5 R24" RoF3 Rending

EML is fine as is. Rending on shuriken cannons give us our own version of the assault cannon.

Pulse lasers should stay on Falcons alone, otherwise I see no point of having a starcannon at all. Also, imagine a Falcon with Pulse laser + Star cannon + underslung shuriken cannon...that's pretty immense for transport popping. Then it'd actually be worth the premium points we're paying for this battle tank.

DarknessEternal...if that IS what they are, then they damn well must cost half their current cost, because they certainly aren't worth their current 30/45 TL cost.

And we would do well to agree on this first, you know. No way we can decide what we think should be done with the Defender Guardians if the heavy weapons aren't first agreed upon.

There's nothing wrong with large quantity of Guardians, what truly is wrong is that a dying race with the most advanced production capability of the known universe can't equip their soldiers decently. Granted, not all of the good stuff reflects in combat performance on the dice system - I bet Eldar armour doesn't chafe as much as IG flak armour.

Gwyidion wrote:by that metric, anything with a mirror in DE will never, ever change.

Harlequins show this to be true. The final proof whether it's for better or worse would depend on what happens to Shuriken Catapults, I guess, considering Splinter Rifles got significantly better.

Araenion wrote:Brightlance: S8 AP1 R36" RoF1
Pulse laser: S8 AP2 R48" RoF2
Starcannon: S7 AP2 R36" RoF2
Scatterlasers: S6 AP6 R36" RoF4
Shuriken cannon: S6 AP5 R24" RoF3 Rending

EML is fine as is. Rending on shuriken cannons give us our own version of the assault cannon.

With the exception of the Brightlance missing the Lance rule, They seem reasonable. I'd maybe like +1 shot and -1S on the scatter laser to help it stand out, it would then make the ultimate anti-horde gun. I think the most important issue now would be to sort out the point cost.

DarknessEternal...if that IS what they are, then they damn well must cost half their current cost, because they certainly aren't worth their current 30/45 TL cost.

Leaving them the same as DE will not change the fact that people will just use fire dragons instead of using a brightlance. The difference between having to spend maybe 2-3 turns shooting a brightance compaired to it being almost certain to destroy a landraider 1st time with dragons is a HUGE difference.

Haha, good catch there, I forgot to put the rule in. Personally, I'd rather have a shuriken cannon being S5 AP4 rending, if we must have a S5 heavy weapon and leave the Scatter as is. It is a nice weapon and there's no reason to fix what isn't broken or overpriced.

I'm still very excited over that idea of a Falcon with 2 S8, 2 S7 and 3 S6 rending shots...I think I'll give it a try in a friendly game against my friend. Together with the ability to shoot all turret weapons while moving 12" and Falcons are set to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the point cost...and I'm talking about my version of the heavy weapons, of course.

Assuming our vehicles are given BS4 and that's already added in their point cost then there's no need to accomodate for it in the heavy weapons cost...

AP1 Brightlances 25 points.
EML 20 points
S7 Starcannons 15 points
Scatterlasers 15 points
Rending Shuriken cannons 10 points

Sounds balanced?

Beautiful. Also pulse lasers should be 35 pts

Pulse Lasers should really stay Falcons-only...I would never take EML if pulse lasers were available for Serpents and starcannons would be completely redundant.

Same thing with prism cannons. While it'd be cool to have Wraithlords carry those around, I'd rather they stay on Fire Prisms alone.

I don't thing a pulse laser having 1 extra shot, loosing Lance and having 1 worse AP warrants an 10 point increase over a brightlance I'd keep it the same point cost as a BL.

Lets look at it at Araenion's suggestion in context (using out previous suggestions):

Compairing them to DE seems most logical (similar stats, very recently updated so point comparisons would be fair) so here we go...

5 guardians + warlock and shuriken cannon - 90 points
4x12" S4 AP5 Assault 2 shots. 1x24" S6 AP5 Heavy 3 Rending shot. Fleet

VS

10 Kabalite Warriors - 90 points
10x4+ poison 24" Rapid fire weapons, Fleet, Power from Pain

Pros for DE:
4 more models
+1 WS and BS
Access to FNP, Furious Charge and Fearless
All their shots wound on a 4+
24" range.

Pros for Guardians:
2 heavy weapons
Higher Ld from warlock
Assault weapons
Warlock has Inv
Warlock wounds on 2+ in CC



Does that seem fair in your view? To me the DE seem far better, which may suggest something is wrong.

I don't have the Codex: Dark Eldar, but aren't their warriors supposed to be the fighting core of their army? And Wyches, naturally, but since they're melee it's not the same boat.

My answer to the Defender Guardians problem is to get them 24" rapid fire, 18" Assault 1 or 12" assault 2 weapons. I personally like the rapid fire option.

They really should have BS3, except the platform which should be BS4. Maybe it has a targeting lock that improves the aim? Or something of that sort. BS3 heavy weapon platform just doesn't work, even if there are more than one in the squad. And they should be limited to 10 per squad with 2 mandatory platforms per 5 models. Shuriken cannons should be the default weapon. Other options should then be offered for the cost of the weapon - the cost of the Shuricannon. So Scatterlasers would cost 5 points, EML 10, etc...

A warlock as a squad leader should have the option to give them defensive grenades for +1 points per model, or something similar and of course his chosen power. And improved LD profile, for heaven's sake!

People that want 18" assault 2 weapons with the same profile as avenger shuriken catapult, then give them weapon platforms on top of that, +1BS, etc...are heading down a wrong way with them, I think. They shouldn't be a spearheading squad like the Avengers, they should provide cover fire and long-range support, defending a home objective.

Araenion wrote:Pulse Lasers should really stay Falcons-only..

Agreed (and Hornets). Make them Lances and leave them on the vehicles.

It's not like Tac Marines carry Assault Cannons.

Araenion wrote:I don't have the Codex: Dark Eldar, but aren't their warriors supposed to be the fighting core of their army? And Wyches, naturally, but since they're melee it's not the same boat.

My answer to the Defender Guardians problem is to get them 24" rapid fire, 18" Assault 1 or 12" assault 2 weapons. I personally like the rapid fire option.

Yeah, Kabalite warriors are meant to be the fighting core of the army. Regardless of that, Warriors shouldn't be better than guardians when their the same point cost.

Rapid fire is unprecidented for eldar, but I agree that it would fit the defender guardians role quite well. Their tech is ment to have advanced so that you can fire at full capacity regardless of what your doing, so a fluffier solution could be having 2 firing modes. 12" assault 2 or 18/24" assault 1 maybe?

Just for the hell of it (and no, I'm not really serious):
Shuriken Catapult. R24" S4 Ap5 Assault 4, dispersed
Dispersed: The Catapult's salvo is inaccurate and rapidly loses accuracy over range, as such it will automatically miss one shot per full 6" increment (firing on a target 14" away, the weapon would automatically miss 2 of 4 shots).

Mahtamori wrote:Just for the hell of it (and no, I'm not really serious):
Shuriken Catapult. R24" S4 Ap5 Assault 4, dispersed
Dispersed: The Catapult's salvo is inaccurate and rapidly loses accuracy over range, as such it will automatically miss one shot per full 6" increment (firing on a target 14" away, the weapon would automatically miss 2 of 4 shots).

Hmm it is quite effortless to fire and eldar do live a long time. I will vote
for
Shuriken Catapult. R32" (2nd Ed) S4 AP5 Large Blast.

Now that that's settled, time to come up with a reason to field anything other than a guardian...

DAaddict wrote:Shuriken Catapult. R32" (2nd Ed) S4 AP5 Large Blast.

Now that that's settled, time to come up with a reason to field anything other than a guardian...

WTF?! please tell me your not being serious.

OMG. Of course not. I acknowleged they need more range and proposed rapid fire catapults. After being flamed for that, I just thought I would join OPA.(overpowered anonymous) Improve guardians? Yes.
Just keep the options logical so that there remains reason to field dire avengers and the like.

Where is the flaming?! I'm confused.....

DA's still have better armour WS and BS, plus the exarch powers. Although I agree that for 12 points compaired to these guardians at 8 points, I wouldn't say DA's are 50% better. The problem is, when looking at the comparison of capability vs points with the 5th Ed DE codex, Avengers are over priced.

I stand by what I said. Guardian Defenders themselves are at odds with the rest of the Eldar codex. I see no issues with them having rapid fire weapons. But then again I am a huge believer in clear purpose units, so flimsy heavy weapon teams that can't assault a fly without getting their asses kicked having short-ranged assault weapons is contra-productive to their purpose. It feels like they almost want us to assault with them.

True, setting them up as a "sit back and shoot" unit seems to be most logical. They'd then have a similar role to pathfinders, just swapping pinning and awesome cover saves for heavy weapons and more shots up close. That would leave us DA's and Storm guardians as the "get stuck in" troops and jetbikes as the super quick support/objective snatchers.

I dislike Rapid Fire simply because the Dire Avenger Catapult isn't all that different.
I can easily see Rapid Fire work for them, but then I'd also like to see Dire Avengers get some form of Hot Shot Catapult to maybe further set them apart.

On the other hand, if catapults were natively 3-shot, but kept their range, the Guardians would be high-risk-high-reward.
(Sort of the same reason I would personally prefer to leave poison vulnerability on Wraiths - you've got to have something your opponent can capitalize on)

This would naturally lead to Blade Storm being obsolete, and in need of a reform. Of course, it doesn't fix the problem that Shuriken Catapults are incompatible with heavy weapons in general.

Eldar weaponry should be assalt. The fastness and fluff of eldar would be compromised by anything else. How about simply making the basic catapult 18" range and the avenger catapult be 24" range?

Because 24" assault 2 woud completely outclass a bolter....and you know that would never be allowed to happen

It SHOULD outclass a bolter. Fluff wise the eldar are far more technologically advanced. The DA are worse in every other way than SMs.

Except initiative and fleet
But yes they should be better. I'd rather see them with assault 3 18" but that doesnt seem very appropriate for troops

Assault 24" weapons are not reasonable for a troop choice. I must say I don't understand the mentality of people that want to feel special and thus make chaos in the army profile...because since Eldar can't have rapid fire weapons due to fluff and can't have assault 12" catapults because that's unplayable, they must have assault 18" catapults but that makes Avengers too weak so we must make their catapults to 24" and and and...why not just go the simple and effective road, when it's already laid out in front of us?

The fact is that rapid fire weapons function very differently than assault weapons and Dire Avengers are safe within their own niche as the assault troopers and vanguard of the Eldar and Defenders have their own role too.

What I like:

Rending Shurikens:
The origional concept of the shuriken cataput was in every way superior to the bolter, including its ability to cut through armor, equal range and STR, and the ability to fire on the run. Rend brings it back to that, but the simplification of newer rules with an AP instead of a SAVE MOD left it on the sideline. Rend brings it back and makes up for the reduced range (kind of).

Better Phoenix Lords and Avatar:
everybody knows the PL are overpriced jokes taken only by confident players expecting 'friendly', not 'competitive' games against other equally non points efficient armies. I have no problem with their cost if they didn't die so easy. The Avatar is a pretty damn weak God of War as it is, and should be way more scary, harder to kill, and in general, inspiring as an army centerpiece/anchor, even if it costs twice as much.

Warlocks should be purchased like a marine command squad (as they are) and assigned like wolfguard and to any squad, not bought separately for guardians or wraithguard and ignored by aspects. In codex fluff, they are all ex-aspect warriors, so should be perfectly familiar with working with an aspect. As advisors to the farseer, they should have no problem working with strange things like harlequins and wraithguard either.

WHAT I DON'T LIKE:
psychic checks for exarch powers or warlock. Powers that affect the individual exarch are often just exceptional skills (fast shot and crack shot being obvious ones). Squad-affecting ones like skyleap, bladestorm, tankhunters etc reflect a tactical maneuver that a squad has been trained in and practiced in by their exarch, who excelled in such a tactic - not a magical boon like a farseer's blessing.
As far as the warlocks go, I can kind of see it making sense for destructor, but I'll give that up when chaos deamons have to give up their flamers of tzeentch to the same roll. Warlocks with destructor exude violent psyke energy when they put on that helm and go through the aspect ritual before a battle, it isnt a conscious choice like a farseer makes as to which strand of fate is being scryed, they become their psychic power just as an aspect warrior becomes his aspect the moment the armor goes on. Fluff aside, it also adds a big imbalance to points with the risk involved in such a drastic change.

Just my thoughts on game balance:

Squad-affecting powers like veil, bladestorm, stalker, tankhunters, skyleap, etc should be contingent on the number in the squad. A base cost for the exarch/shadowseer/warlock for being there in the first place then a second cost 'per-model'. Think like this: shadowseer:10 points + 2 points per model for veil of tears, and so on. This would change nothing in squad points cost from the current, but could allow players to experiment with smaller squads and peculiar uses for overlooked things by feeling short-changed by not using full squads while paying full points for the upgrade. Marines get a free weapon for having 10 guys, so most of them use, points allowing, 10 guys (plus they can split). We get a very pricey power that affects a squad of 5 the same as a squad of 10, so we field a squad of 10 so as to get maximum use of our squad-wide ability. That's why Death Jesters get no love. If a veiled harlequin squad of 5 without kisses was viable in points-crunching, the Death-Jester might be used a bit more. On the downside, it wouldn't allow for hiding special characters in there (which never made sense, but hey we exploit it if we can - fluff be damned when we have to compete against codex creep). This kind of reassignment of points would help an Eldar player feel comfortable using squads of different sizes, instead of the competative standard of how-many-can-fit-in-a-transport-and all-benefit-from-one-power. way of army building.

It's like marines in reverse. We PAY for a power so feel obligated to fill out the squad as much as possible in order for it to be a viable points expense for each guy we buy. Marines/grey hunters/ etc pay for their models and get a FREE boost for filling out their squad, so feel obligated to get more of the same guy so they can get the same guy plus a missile launcher. The marine model without a missile launcher in the squad of 9 is still a marine guy. The dire avenger guy without the bladestorm in his squad is not.

I feel like rapid fire is a really bad solution to the guardian issue. It gives them weapons that are identical to bolters, and makes them very very slightly better at shooting.

I still feel like (and this is carried over from the MkI thread) that S3 ap5 R24 Assault 2 is the way to go. Thats a weapon profile that makes me laugh with disgust on a 21 pt swooping hawk, but i feel it is quite appropriate on a 8 pt guardian. It is supporting fire, made only effective by Doom.

If you price it out (at current heavy weapon prices and with 1 profile per 5 guardians), thats 110 pts for 10 guardians and two scatter lasers, each shooting phase, they get 16 BS3 S3 Ap5 shots at 24" and 8 BS 3 S6 Ap6 shots at 36". Thats decent firepower, but it has essentially no AP, low BS, and its on a unit with 5+ armor that will go away if someone looks at them wrong. I think it's fair. If they can get star cannons at a reasonable price, its a decent AT unit. which will take some AT weight off the heavy and elite slots.

PLs: 4++ across the board. 3++ for Asurmen. Asurmen gives all DAs stubborn, other PLs make all aspects scoring (perhaps just one unit).


Also, with regard to the idea that 24" assault weapons aren't reasonable for a troops choice, PAGK get them. At 25 points they have a S4 AP5 R24 Assault 2 weapon, T4, 3+, a S6 CC weapon, and other goodies. The game will not end if DAs get 24" weapons.

edited, the proposed weapon profile for guardians above was supposed to be S3 AP5 Assault 2 R24"... fixed now.

Tweaking the weapon profile seems like a strange way to address the issue with a unit. To me, the Guardian and the Dire Avengers are an intriguing matter because they seem to do the same things, but one is obviously better. The solution may be in finding a new role for one of them and in that, I would suggest that the Guardians should be tasked with the role of delaying and misdirecting enemies and the Avengers should be the counterattack. The Eldar seem to be a giant exercise in the importance of combined arms tactics, thanks to all of its units specializing, and having a legitimate strategy, and fudging with the weapons seems to take away from that, as it seems like all of the discussion is about "how do we make it viable for the Guardians and the Avengers to sit in just one place and shoot?" I think the answer may lie in allowing for the Guardians to act like a picket, with fleet and, to make use of a special rule that can let them move again during the assault phase, so they can "light calvary" back d6 inches after delivering a volley of fire, along with the ability to infiltrate, so they can forward deploy and act like the false front of a defense in depth or counterattack. They can be just as weak as they are now, just as cheap, and if they need to be "sweetened" perhaps allow for the chance to them to be influenced by each Aspect Warriors' Shrine by gaining a special ability they can choose to use from any Exarchs that are within, say, six inches of the unit, whether it is the ability to fire in unison, and thus to make use of Bladestorm, from a Dire Avenger Exarch, being able to light-calv six inches when near a Warp Spider exarch, to dangerous and seemingly odd abilities that affect attack or strength from either Exarchs of the Howling Banshees or Striking Scorpions. The Guardians could, and I think should, be the distillation of the Eldar to "be like water" by having a ability to dull the enemy's alphastrike capacity or to harry, and then to augment whatever strategy is being used once the rest of the Eldar form up, so they can have both a role dictated by their set-up and have use once the real fight starts, no matter how you like fighting, to escape being "the Dire Avengers when you're too cheap to get actual Dire Avengers" and, also, to escape this cycle built around the shuriken cannon arms race.

I agree with those who say rapid fire is bad. Eldar are a fast army and a technologically advanced to be able to make their guns fire at full capacity whether they've moved or not. Maybe a standard shruiken catapault shouldn't out class a bolter, but the DA catapaults should, eldar are a more technologically advanced race so they'd be able to make better weapons and DAs are elite shooting aspect warriors, so it seems right. Or maybe the way to set the two types or catapaults apart is a AP decrease as well?

The way we differentiated the guardians and DAs in the MkI thread was to make the DAs a mechanized generalist anti infantry unit, and to make the guardians a non-mechanized fire support unit.

Guardians have S3 Ap5 R24 A2 weapons, 1 plat per 5 guardians, 5-10 squad size. Platforms are required, and a unit with a platform cannot embark on a transport.

DAs have S4 AP4 R18 A2 weapons, ccw, shuripistols. Stubborn and shimmershield make them a better tarpit than they are now. If they need to be better at shooting, give them A3 and remove bladestorm or give them rending.

There is little crossover in their roles in that framework.

I believe that due to the way Storm Guardians do not work in melee, Storm Guardians need to be merged into Defender Guardians simply because Storm Guardians do not work (currently their best function is tripple-flamer, and not get into melee)

In other words, I think Guardians are the unit best off with triplet weapons (cata+pist+ccw)

For Dire Avengers it'd be interesting exploring having them use their catapults in melee.

I Bring Answers or possibly more Questions

Craftworld Eldar 5th Edition Codex

Army Wide Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Exarch Powers: Hasnt changed
Doomed: The Eldar race is a almost extinct race, and all the living Eldar know that, they will fight on, untill they die.All eldar have the Stubborn Special Rule.

Forces of the Craftworld:

Autarch: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
6 6 3 3 6 3 3 10 3+ (4++)

Special Rules:
Master Strategist-+1 on reserve rolls
Doomed
Fleet of Foot
Independent Character

Wargear:
Shuriken Pistol
Close Combat Weapon
Forceshield

Farseer: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
5 5 3 3 5 3 2 10 --- (4++)

Speical Rules:
Independent Character
Psyker
Fleet of Foot
Doomed

Wargear:
Shuriken Pistol
Witchblade
Ghosthelm
Runes of Warding
Runes of Witnessing
Spirit Stones

Warlock: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
5 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 --- (4++)

Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed

Wargear:
Shuriken Pistol
Witchblade


Psychic Powers:
(Farseer)
Guide: A unit within 6” of the Farseer may reroll all failed roll to hits (including Close Combat) unril the next turn
Note: Vehicles can be Guided too

Fortune: A unit within 6” of the Farseer may reroll all faild saves of anykind until the next turn
Note: Vehicles can be Fortuned too

Doom: A enemy unit within 24” of the Farseer may be doomed by the Farseer, any friendly unit may reroll to wound against this enemy unit

Eldritch Storm: Psychic Shooting Attack:
Range: 18” Strength:4 AP:6 Large blast,pinning,rending, on vehicles 2d6 armour penetration, hit on side armour. Special rule: keep the large blast marker on the table, on the next player turn, any units wishing to deep strike within 18” of the Eldritch Storm marker, takes 1d6 hits.

Mind War: Any model within 12” of the Farseer may be the target of mind war, no LoS is needed, both models add 1d6 to their leadership. If the Farseer scores higher than the opponents model, then it takes that many wounds it lost by, with no saves allowed.

Warp Lightning: Psychic Shooting Attack
Range: 12” Strength:6 AP:2 assault D6, only Invulnerable saves may be taken.

Forsee: Any enemy unit within 24” of the Farseer can be targeted, does not require LoS, if that unit wishes to shoot at a Friendly model on its turn, then it must reroll all passed rolls to hit. If the unit has twin linked weapons, it looses the twin linked rule instead of rerolling all passed rolls to hit.

Warlock: Note: the warlocks dont need to roll for a psychic test when using these psychic powers:
Destructor: Psychic Shooting
Range: Template Strength:5 AP4 Assault 1

Enhance: If the warlock is with a unit and has this power, the unit gains +1 to its WS and initiative.

Embolden: If the warlock is with a unit and has this power, the unit may reroll all failed morale/pinning tests.

Conceal: If the warlock is with a unit and has this power the unit gets the Stealth special rule, and if it is in the open, it gains a 5+ cover save (this save cannot be improved with the Stealth Universal Special Rule)

Warp Shield: If the Warlock is with a unit and has this power, it gains a 5+ inv save.


The Avatar of Khaine: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
10 6 6 6 6 4 4 10 3+ (4++)

Special Rules:
Monstrous Creature
Daemon (4++)
Molten Body (any Flamers,heavy flamers,hand-flamers,infernus pistols,flamestorm cannons, Inferno cannons, meltaguns, Multi-Meltas, Heat lances, combi-flamer or combi-meltas cannot wound the Avatar)
Fearless
Inspiring (any unit within 12” counts as being fearless)

Wargear:
The Wailing Doom-Range 12” Strength:8 AP:1 melta

Defender Guardians: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
3 4 3 3 5 1 1 8 5+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed
Heavy Weapons Platform: The Heavy weapon on the platform counts as an assault weapon.

Wargear:
Shuriken Catapult

Storm Guardians: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
4 3 3 3 5 1 1 8 5+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed

Wargear:
Shuriken Pistol
Close Combat Weapon
Plasma Grenades

Rangers: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
3 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 5+
Pathfinders: 3 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 5+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed
Stealth (2+ for Pathfinders)
Move Through Cover (Pathfinders
Infiltrate

Wargear:
Eldar Long Rifle (Sniper) (5 or 6 is a rending shot for Pathfinders and counts as AP1)


Guardian Jetbikes: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
3 3 3 3 5 1 1 8 3+
(4)
Special Rules:
Doomed

Wargear:
Jetbike (+1 Toughness, 3+ save, twin-linked Shuriken Catapult)

Exarch: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
5 5 3 3 6 1 2 9 3+
Special Rules:
Same rules as Aspect.

Wargear:
Shuriken Pistol
Close Combat Weapon

Dire Avengers: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 4+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed

Wargear:
Avenger Shuriken Catapult
2 Close Combat Weapons

Exarch Powers:
Bladestorm (Hasnt Changed)
Defend (Hasnt Changed)

Striking Scorpions: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
5 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 3+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed

Wargear:
Mandiblasters (+1 attack)
Scorpion Chainsword (+1 Strength)
Shuriken Pistol

Exarch Powers:
Shadowstrike (The unit gains the Infiltrate special rule)
Stalker (The unit gains the move through cover special rule, and the Stealth special rule)


Fire Dragons: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 4+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed

Wargear:
Fusion Gun
2 Close Combat Weapons
Melta bombs

Exarch Powers:
Crack Shot (Hasnt changed)
Tank Hunters (Hasnt Changed)

Wraithguard: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
5 4 5 6 5 1 2 10 3+
Special Rules:
Wraithsight: (Hasnt Changed)
Fearless
Posion Immume (Poision weapons wound on a 6+)

Wargear:
Wraithcannon (Hasnt Changed, no cover saves allowed)

Howling Banshees: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
5 4 3 3 6 1 1 9 4+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed

Wargear:
Banshee Mask (Hasnt Changed)
Shuriken Pistol
Power Sword

Exarch Powers:
War Shout (Enemies Leadership reduced by 2, enemy units in assault with the Banshees must take a Leadership test, or be WS1 for the rest of the assault phase. Can only be used when assaulting.)
Acrobatics (Unit gains Counter Attack Universal Special Rule and Move through cover, and rolls 3d6, pick the highest for running moves)

Harlequin Troupe: Hasnt Changed.

Shining Spears: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 3+
(4)
Special Rules:
Doomed
Skilled Rider

Wargear:
Laser Lance (Range: 12” Strength: 6 ap:4 Assault 1,lance counts as str6 power weapon in Close combat
Jetbike
Close Combat Weapon

Exarch Powers:
Withdraw (Hasnt Changed)
Furious Onslaught (all enemy units that the shining spears passed over in there movement phase, take a
Str6 power weapon hit that hits on a 4+, for each shining spear in the Squad, this cannot be done in the subseqeunt turn(like bladestorm)

Warp Spiders: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 5 1 2 9 3+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed
Skilled Rider
Deep Strike

Wargear:
Deathspinner
Warp Jump Generator (hasnt Changed)

Exarch Powers:
Withdraw (hasnt Changed)
Surprise assault (When deepstriking, the unit only scatters d6” and in the shooting phase, the weapons count as pinning in the same turn the warp spiders used their deep strike ability)

Swooping Hawks: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 4+
Special Rules:
Flying (The unit gains a 4+ cover save)
Fleet of Foot
Doomed
Skilled Rider

Wargear:
Lasblaster
2 Close Combat Weapons
Haywire Grenades (same as before)
Swooping Hawk Jump Pack
Exarch Powers:
Skyleap (Gains a 3+ cover instead of a 4+, flamers cannot hit the unit as they are flying too high up,when the squad Deep strikes, they may assualt on the same turn.)
Intercept (doesnt hit worse then a 4+ against vehicles)

Crystal Dragons: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
5 4 3 3 6 1 2 9 3+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed
Scout
Stealth
Assainator (May reroll to wound and to hits against IC's and MC's

Wargear:
Crystal Combat Weapon (Rending)
Close Combat Weapon
Crystal Carbine (Can Target any model in the unit. First roll to hit, each other Carbine shot that hits, the weapon gains +1 Strength, may combine any number of Carbines, the unit may shoot at any number of models)

Exarch Powers:
Withdraw (Hasnt Changed)
Acrobatics (Hasnt Changed see: Howling Banshees Entry)

Dark Reapers: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
4 5 3 3 5 1 2 9 3+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed
Slow and Purposeful
Wargear:
Reaper Launcher (Hasnt changed)

Exarch Powers:
Crack Shot (Hasnt Changed)
Fast Shot ( Hasnt Changed)





Support Weapon Battery (Hasnt Changed, Guardians are BS4)

Wraithlord: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
5 4 10 8 5 3 3 10 3+
Special Rules:
Fearless
Monstrous Creature
Posion Immunity (Posion weapons wound on a 6+)

Wargear:
Wriathsword (Hasnt Changed)
Flamers (Havent Changed)
Shuriken Catapults (Havent Changed)

Wave Serpent: (Hasnt Changed, has BS4 Now)

Vyper: (Hasnt Changed, Has BS4 Now, not open-topped)

Nightspinner (Hasnt Changed),

Fire Prism (Hasnt Changed)

Falcon (Hasnt Changed, BS4 now)

War Walkers (Hasnt Changed, BS4 Now)

Armoury: Range: Strength: AP: Type:
Lasblaster 24” 4 5 Assault 2
Shuriken Pistol 12” 4 5 Pistol
Shuriken Catapult 12”-18” 4 5 Assault 2 (Assault 1 at Range 18”)
Avenger Catapult 18” 4 5 Assault 2
Fusion Pistol 6” 8 1 Pistol,Melta
Fusion gun 12” 8 1 Assault 1,Melta
Crystal Carbine 12” 3 2 Assault 1
Shuriken Cannon 36” 6 5 Heavy 3
Scatter Laser 36” 6 6 Heavy 4
Starcannon 36” 6 2 Heavy 3
Eldar Missle Launcher:
Krak 48” 8 3 Heavy 1
Plasma 48” 4 4 Heavy 1,blast
Bright Lance: 36” 9 2 Heavy 1, Lance
Prism Cannon: Hasnt Changed
Doomweaver: Hasnt Changed
Wraithcannon: Hasnt Changed
Death Spinner 12” 6 6 Assault 2
Reaper Launcher: 48” 5 3 Heavy 2
Laser Lance: 12” 6 4 Assault 1
Pulse Laser: 48” 9 2 Heavy 2



Eldar Army List:
Force Organisation Chart:
Mandatory:
1HQ 2 Troops
Optional:
1 HQ 4 Troops 3 Elites 3 Fast Attack 3 Heavy Support

HQ-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Avatar of Khaine: 155

Autarch 70 Points
Options:
May Replace Close Combat weapon with....
Power Weapon..............................10 points
Executioner...................................20 points
Scorpion Chainsword...................10 points
Laser Lance (only on Jetbike)......20 points
Crystal Blade................................10 points
Scorpions Claw.............................25 Points
May Replace Pistol with:
Fusion Pistol.................................10 points
Fusion Gun...................................10 points
Deathspinner.................................10 points
Reaper Launcher...........................15 points
Lasblaster.......................................5 points
Laser Lance...................................20 points
Crystal Carbine.............................15 points
Avener Shuriken Catapult.............5 points
May Take:
Plasma Assault Launcher...............10 points (unit is armed with Offesive and Defensive Grenades)
Banshee Mask................................3 points
Mandiblasters................................10 points
Jetbike............................................25 points
Warp Jump Generator....................20 points
Swooping Hawk Wings.................20 points (Also gives 4+ Cover)

Farseer: 60 points
Options:
May replace Shuriken Pistol with a Fusion Pistol......10 points
May Take:
Spirit Stones..................................20 points
Runes of Warding.........................15 points
Runes of Witnessing.....................15 points
Jetbike...........................................25 points
May take up to 3 Psychic Powers:
Guide............................................20 Points
Doom............................................25 Points
Fortune.........................................30 Points
Forsee...........................................20 Points
Eldritch Storm..............................15 Points
Warp Lightning.............................15 Points
Mind War......................................15 Points

For Each Farseer in the army, you may include a unit of Warlocks, these do not count HQ, but otherwise functions as a seperate HQ unit.

Warlocks: 25 Points each
Unit Compositoin:
3-10 Warlocks
Options:
May take up to 1 Psychic Power:
Conceal.......................................15 Points
Warp Shield................................15 Points
Embolden....................................5 Points
Enhance......................................10 Points
Destructor...................................10 Points
May take:
Jetbike........................................25 Points
May take a Wave serpent as a Dedicated Transport (This option is not for warlocks that are with Guardians)

Troops:
Defender Guardians 8 points each
Unit Composition:
5-20 Defender Guardians
Options:
1 model in the Squad may replace there Shuriken catapults with:
Flamer...........................................5 points
Fusion gun....................................10 points

For every 10 guardians, 2 models in the squad may be upgraded to a Support Weapon team with one of the weapons from the following list:
Bright Lance.........................................30 Points
Pulse Laser............................................30 Points
Eldar Missle Launcher..........................20 Points
Starcannon............................................20 Points
Scatter Laser.........................................15 Points
Shuriken Cannon..................................10 Points
The Unit may be joined by a Warlock (See HQ section for points cost)
May take a Wave Serpent as a Dedicated Transport

Storm Guardians 8 Points each
Unit Composition:
5-20 Storm Guardians
Options:
Up to 2 Models in the Squad may exchange there CCW and Pistol with:
Flamer..............................5 Points
Fusion gun.......................10 Points
All models may take:
Plasma Grenades..............1 Point per model
Melta bombs....................5 Points per model
The unit may be joined by a Warlock (See HQ section for points cost)
May take a Wave Serpent as a dedicated transport

Dire Avengers 12 Points each
Unit Composition:
5-10 Dire Avengers
Options:
One Dire Avenger may be upgraded to a Exarch
Exarch may replace CCW and/or Pistol with:
Avenger Shuriken Catapult.............Free
Shimmershield................................10 Points
Diresword........................................10 Points
Power Weapon.................................5 points
Exarch May take:
Bladestorm......................................15 Points
Defend.............................................10 Points
Dire Avengers may take:
Plasma Grenades.............................1 Point per model
May take a Wave Serpent as a dedicated Transport

Rangers 18 points per mpdel
Unit Composition
5-10 Rangers
All models may be upgraded to Pathfinders....6 points per model

Guardian Jetbike Squad (Hasnt Changed)


Elites:

Howing Banshees 16 Points per model
Unit Composition:
5-10 Howling Banshees
One Banshee May be upgraded to an Exarch.....10 Points
Exarch may Replace CCW and/or Pistol with:
Executioner..............................10 Points (Hasnt Changed)
Triskele.....................................5 Points (Hasnt Changed)
Mirrorswords............................5 Points (Hasnt Changed)
Power Weapon..........................Free
Exarch May take:
War Shout................................10 Points
Acrobatics................................10 Points
May take a Wave Serpent as a Dedicated Transport

Fire Dragons 16 Points per model
Unit Composition:
5-10 Fire Dragons
Options:
One Fire Dragon May be upgraded to an Exarch....10 Points
Exarch May Replace CCW and/or Pistol with:
Fusion gun..............................Free
Fire pike..................................5 Points (Hasnt Changed)
Dragons Breath Flamer...........5 Points (Hasnt Changed)
Exarch May take:
Crack Shot.............................5 Points
Tank Hunters.........................10 Points
Any model in the Unit may replace their Fusion gun with:
Flamer....................................Free
Any Fire Dragon may Replace their Fusion with Flamers for Free
May take a Wave Serpent as a Dedicated Transport

Crystal Dragons 16 Points per model
Unit Composition:
5-10 Crystal Dragons
One Crystal Dragon may be upgraded to an Exarch...10 Points
Exarch May Replcae CCW and/or Pistol with:
Crystal Blade.....................Free
Crystal Carbine..................Free
Executioner.......................10 Points (Hasnt Changed)
Scorpion Claw...................15 Points (Hasnt Changed)
Exarch May take:
Withdraw...........................10 Points
Acrobatics.........................10 Points
May take a Wave Serpent as a Dedicated Transport

Striking Scorpions (Havent Changed, Exarch costs 10, shadowstrike costs 10 and Stalker costs 10)
May take a Wave Serpent as a Dedicataed Transport

Harlequins (Havent Changed.. AT ALL)

Wriathguard 30 Points per model
Unit Composition:
3-10 Wraithguard (If 10 Wriahtguard chosen, may be taken as a Troop Choice)
Options:
May be joined by a Warlock
May take a Wave Serpent as a Dedicated Transport

Fast Attack:
Warp Spiders 20 Points per model
Unit Composition:
5-10 Warp Spiders
Options:
One Warp Spider may be upgraded to an exarch for 10 points
Exarch may replace CCW and/or Pistol with:
Deathspinner...................................Free
Dual Deathspinners........................5 points (Hasnt Changed)
Spinneret Rifle...............................5 points (Hasnt changed, assault 2 now)
Exarch may Take:
Powerblades...................................10 points (Hasnt changed)
Withdraw........................................10 points
Surprise Assault.............................10 points

Shining Spears 25 points per model
Unit Composition:
3-10 Shining Spears
Options:
One Shining Spear may be upgraded to an exarch on a Jetbike.. 10 points
Exarch may replace CCW and/or Pistol with:
Laser lance.................................Free
Star Lance..................................10 points (Hasnt Changed)
Exarch may take:
Withdraw...................................10 points
Furious Onslaught.....................10 points

Swooping Hawks 20 points per model
Unit Composition:
5-10 Swooping Hawks
Options:
One Swooping Hawk may be upgraded to an Exarch with Swooping hawk wings....10 points
Exarch may take:
Lasblaster...............................Free
Haywire Grenades.................Free
Hawks Talon..........................5 points
Sunrifle..................................10 points
Power Weapon.......................10 points
Exarch may take:
Skyleap..................................10 points
Intercept.................................5 points



Vyper Squadron 50 points per model
Unit Composition:
1-3 Vypers
Options:
Vypers may take:
Bright lance...............................30 points
Eldar Missle Launcher...............20 points
Starcannon.................................20 points
Scatter Laser..............................15 points
Shuriken Cannon.......................5 points
Vypers may be upgraded with:
Holo-fields.................................25 points
Vectored Engines.......................15 points
Star Engines...............................15 points
Spirit Stones...............................5 points

Heavy Support:
Support Weapon battery (Hasnt Changed, D-Cannon changed to range 48” Ordanance Barrage, Vibro Cannon has now a base strength of 6,and counts as Ordanance Barrage, Shadowweaver counts as Ordanance Barrage ,and has the same special rule as the Nightspinner) The unit may move and Fire their Weapon, every platform costs 50 points now, D-cannon 35 points, Vibro cannon20 points, Shadowweaver 20 points)

Dark Reapers 20 Points per Model
Unit Composition:
3-6 Dark Reapers
Options:
One Dark Reaper may be upgraded to an Exarch....10 points
Exarch may take:
Reaper Launcher..........................Free
Eldar Missle Launcher.................10 points
Tempest Launcher........................10 points (Hasnt Changed)
May take:
Fast Shot......................................10 points
Crack Shot....................................5 points
May take a Wave Serpent as a Dedicated transport

Wraithlord 100 Points
Unit Composition:
1 Wraithlord
Options:
May take 2 of the Following:

Bright Lance.......................30 Points
Eldar Missle Launcher.......20 Points
Starcannon.........................20 Points
Scatter Laser......................15 Points
Wraithsword......................10 Points (if 2 are taken, the Wraithlord gains +1 attack)
Shuriken Cannon...............10 Points

War Walker Squadron (Hasnt Changed)

Falcon 80 Points
Unit Composition:
1 Falcon (comes with stock pulse laser)
Options:
May take 1 of the Following:
Pulse Laser............................30 Points
Bright Lance.........................30 Points
Eldar Missle Launcher..........20 Points
Starcannon............................20 Points
Scatter Laser.........................15 Points
Shuriken Cannon..................10 Points
May replace the Twin-Linked Shuriken catapult for a Shuriken Cannon....10 Points
May Take:
Holo-Fields...........................25 Points
Vectored Engines..................15 Points
Star Engines..........................15 Points
Spirirt Stones........................10 Points

Fire Prism 105 Points
Unit Composition:
1 Fire Prism
May Take:
Holo-Fields...........................25 Points
Vectored Engines..................15 Points
Star Engines..........................15 Points
Spirirt Stones........................10 Points
May replace the Twin-Linked Shuriken catapult for a Shuriken Cannon....10 Points

Nightspinner 105 Points
Unit Composition:
1 Night Spinner
May Take:
Holo-Fields...........................25 Points
Vectored Engines..................15 Points
Star Engines..........................15 Points
Spirirt Stones........................10 Points
May replace the Twin-Linked Shuriken catapult for a Shuriken Cannon....10 Points



Dedicated Transports:
Wave Serpent 80 Points
May take 1 of the Following:
Bright Lance.........................35 Points (Twin-Linked)
Eldar Missle Launcher..........25 Points (Twin-Linked)
Starcannon............................25 Points (Twin-Linked)
Scatter Laser.........................20 Points (Twin-Linked)
Shuriken Cannon..................15 Points (Twin-Linked)
May Take:
Vectored Engines..................15 Points
Star Engines..........................15 Points
Spirirt Stones........................10 Points
May replace the Twin-Linked Shuriken catapult for a Shuriken Cannon....10 Points

Feel free to tear it apart!

I still feel like the Defender Guardian issue is being blown out of proportion. They're so easy to fit into the codex with their own little niche and popular opinion here seems to be that somehow that would be a bad thing. But nevermind, not gonna fight a losing battle.

And usually I am not intimidated by a wall of text but damn! That is the chinesse wall of DakkaDakka!

Wait... so you just created this off the top of ur head, or it is actually information you have that will be in the next codex probably??

rivers64 wrote:Wait... so you just created this off the top of ur head, or it is actually information you have that will be in the next codex probably??

I highly doubt there's even rough drafts at the moment, so it's most likely a wish-list (something we're trying to avoid in this thread).

There are a lot of problems with that post. You fail to address some issues, make unneeded changes, and have some pretty wild costs and changes.

48" range Barrage D-cannons? As in, Guided death platforms of uber-killing?
20 point dark reapers? I think they should become cheaper, but thats a little much.

I think the fundamental problem is that no real changes are made. All that really happens is that the units we already have just get better in all the little ways but are still the same units.

rivers64 wrote:I think the fundamental problem is that no real changes are made. All that really happens is that the units we already have just get better in all the little ways but are still the same units.

The Eldar army list, by and large, does not need wholesale changes. It needs only 2 things: 1) 18" shuriken catapults, 2) things to cost what they're actually worth.

Outside of that, sure there's things that could use tightening up, but it's really just gravy.

rivers64 wrote:Wait... so you just created this off the top of ur head, or it is actually information you have that will be in the next codex probably??

I am trying to fix all the current problems


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:

rivers64 wrote:Wait... so you just created this off the top of ur head, or it is actually information you have that will be in the next codex probably??

I highly doubt there's even rough drafts at the moment, so it's most likely a wish-list (something we're trying to avoid in this thread).

if you call trying to fix units wishlisting, then this entire thread is just about wishlisting

If our codex gets updated is all you want to see points cost adjustment and 18 catapults? Really?

Yes, the Eldar codex is in good state, for a 4th edition codex. There's plenty of items to touch up to get it working, but sweeping changes aren't necessary to get the codex working as far as the fame is concerned.

That is, if you want to put a gun to the back of the Eldar fluff and make the army a horde-army (more precisely; a close-ranged / in-your-face version of Imperial Guard).

The current point cost of most units are good, but their performance ratio has been left in behind in the dirt comparing to all 5th edition codices, with a few units being the exception.

Nulipuli2 wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:

rivers64 wrote:Wait... so you just created this off the top of ur head, or it is actually information you have that will be in the next codex probably??

I highly doubt there's even rough drafts at the moment, so it's most likely a wish-list (something we're trying to avoid in this thread).

if you call trying to fix units wishlisting, then this entire thread is just about wishlisting

I keep my own wish-list (or complete re-write) separate in an article of it's own. We're trying to discuss ideas individually, even ideas we don't like for the merits for-and-against.

Araenion wrote:I still feel like the Defender Guardian issue is being blown out of proportion. They're so easy to fit into the codex with their own little niche and popular opinion here seems to be that somehow that would be a bad thing. But nevermind, not gonna fight a losing battle.

And usually I am not intimidated by a wall of text but damn! That is the chinesse wall of DakkaDakka!

Guardian Defenders have been cannon-fodder since 3rd edition, and each new edition since then makes them worse.

No, it's not a huge issue, but it is an issue. People aren't using the Guardian Defenders - they purchase a heavy weapon platform for 80 points + cost of heavy weapon. Or they purchase expendable troops. See where I'm going here?

Regardless, as long as they are improved and do not remain as they were in 3rd edition, there's going to be improvement.

*

??

@Nulipuli2 - I really thing that uberpost could do with an article of its own. were trying to keep things a little simpler and look at issues one at a time. Much of the stuff in the post seems largely unchanged anyway

Nulipuli2 wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:

rivers64 wrote:Wait... so you just created this off the top of ur head, or it is actually information you have that will be in the next codex probably??

I highly doubt there's even rough drafts at the moment, so it's most likely a wish-list (something we're trying to avoid in this thread).

if you call trying to fix units wishlisting, then this entire thread is just about wishlisting

@rivers- If it is information that was likely to be in the next codex it would be in News and Rumours, not proposed rules

I think there is a huge difference between wishlisting and trying to find practical fixes to make useless units viable. Although some of the ideas are a bit unrealitic, were gearing everything towards fixing things that genuinly need fixing (ie never get used competitivly).

Eldar remain a competitive army in today's game but...
The competitive eldar build has become dependent on a limited number of things so while the eldar codex may be 30 pages long, the reality is you could probably list the useable stuff in a 2 to 3 page document.

In a fun fluffy game, a lot of the codex is still playable but when we talk making an all-comers list too much of the codex is left at home.

What works: Waveserpents, Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, War walkers, Eldrad and to a lesser extent farseers, Yriel. Scatterlasers over all other vehicle weapons.

All the other stuff is situational or may see the light of day to address a specific issue but the above core dominates the competitive lists of today.

5th Ed really nerfed eldar vehicles in that they are costed with previous editions in mind. As an example in 3rd and 4th a Falcon in many respects was equal or better than a landraider and so it was acceptable that it costed out @200 pts. If you moved 6", your opponent could only glance your vehicle and you could fire all your weapons. Sure the glance chart was more lethal but you also had spirit stones and holofield to make the likelyhood that you would suffer no worse than a no shooting turn. Today your tank guns have only range but in 5th ed melta-tech has the premium position as being the anti-tank weapon. Now that you can suffer pens, your 12 AV is not too hot and the holofield is of questionable value. So in has stepped the Wave Serpent. Two-thirds the cost, same armor value but the shield makes you safe from melta fire (relatively speaking) so why field a higher cost vehicle that has less survivablity and no real ability to provide more firepower.

This is just an example but the idea is to address all items so that 2/3s or more of a new codex will be playable. SM - due to the multi-codex nature get reviewed by GW on almost an annual basis. Sure it may not make it into your flavor of marines today but if you play Codex: Dark Angel you can bet it will be a twist on the Codex: SM, SW and BA enhancements. Eldar will more than likely get reviewed once every 4 or 5 years so if you enjoy playing eldar, if they get the codex wrong, you will be playing a cookie cutter list of 3 or 4 items for the next five years or worse your eldar will be collecting dust for those 5 years.

So long rant, but the higher purpose of this thread is to get a non-OP flexible and playable eldar codex that presents choices to an eldar player that allows you to make competitive armies that are not tied to a small snippet of the codex.

Good rant DA I agree completely (appart from missing out fire prisms when you listed what works well )

To try and move things away from the seemingly endless Guardian debate (and to give people a chance to collect their thoughts into a single idea rather than loads of random thought) I think we should move on to discuss another unit. In fear of getting bogged down with Swooping hawk ideas again I think its best we leave FA alone for a bit and move on to heavy support. Thoughts?

well then, lets start with Falcons shall we?

I suggest for them to get cheapaer upgrades, and make them BS4

I think BS4 for all tanks (except the wave serpent) would be a good starting point. I don't see the upgrade costs as that much of an issue, the problem is weapon costs IMO. If they were brought to the same sort of level as previously discussed it would make a huge dfference. The only other major suggestion I'd like to see considered was the chance to fire multiple weapons whilst moving. If we wanted to make the falcon into a heavy duty battle tank I'd like to consider changing it to AV 13/12/10

It was also suggested in the last thread (no clue who said it originally ) that the Falcon could just be moved to dedicated transport. If that was the case I'd say the ability to fire multiple weapons on the move should be limited a little.

by upgrades i meant all upgrades including weapons for your dedicated transport suggestion, maybe it could count as a dedicated transport and a heavy supprt choice, much like the Sisters of battle Immolator, and i like the av 13/12/10 idea, makes it less killable

Ooh I though you meant holo-fields and star engines ect. Generally speaking I think their okay. I think AV13 would work, but not alongside the bonesinger HQ suggestion. even the possibility of AV 14 with holofields is insane

so we can agree on AV 13/12/10 and BS4 and cheaper weapons

Well, in heavy support, one issue to deal with is obviously overcrowding - especially if the nightspinner takes up permanent residence (as we must assume it will)

I will say very little about the nightspinner, as I've never used it, nor seen it used. Assume that general changes to the tanks applies there as well.

Currently, we have (* indicate oft-taken things):
Fire Prism*
Wraithlord*
Falcon*
War Walkers*
HS platforms
Dark Reapers
Night spinner

Issues:
Overcrowding - prisms/WLs really benefit from having more than 1 (prisms more directly than 'lords - but lone lords are fairly nonthreatening)
Overpricing - to a lesser extent on the tank hulls, greater extent on dark reapers. Wraithlords I feel aren't terribly priced - I'd rather see a slight boost for them than a price reduction.
Impotence - HS platforms, dark reapers, falcons, and to a much lesser extent, wraithlords, are all offensively challenged. If heavy support are supposed to be the big guns, only the Prism and War Walkers are pulling their weight.

Solutions:
Overcrowding - we've discussed it before. With appropriate changes to the FA units, war walkers can make a move to FA. HS platforms have a few options - upgrade and leave in HS, upgrade and move to troops with guardians, remove them. I do not feel that dark reapers should be moved.

Overpricing - discussed before. 35pt DRs - no. tanks need a slight decrease. HS platforms are such a clusterf*** that they need a complete redesign, from weapons to squad to mechanics, before pricing can be discussed.

Impotence - HS platforms are just bad. All the weapons need improving, and they need to be more resilient to damage. Dark reapers - they're an exarch delivery vehicle. Falcons BS3 and can't move and fire their plethora of weapons. Lords - slight boost and redesign of upgrades.

More details: I support moving the platforms to upgrades for troop Defenders, at appropriate pricing. Upgrade the platforms as well - the only platform I really care about is the D-cannon 30" Heavy 1 Blast

DRs:
Standard profile (still not a fan of aspect-specific profiles) same as current.

squad size 3-8.

Relentless

Exarch retains crack shot and the tempest launcher, all DRs modify cover & obscured saves by -1 (i.e., 4+ becomes 5+ --- this means a wounded marine goes from rolling a 3+ armor to a 5+ cover when shot at by a DR, or, a 16 pt armor save to a 5 pt armor save - i'd take that).
Exarch power: Crack shot - as now
Exarch power: Fast Shot - if the squad does not move during the movement phase preceding the shooting phase, each model in the squad fires one additional shot. If the exarch uses crack shot, he may not benefit from fast shot (though the rest of the squad can).

Multiple firing modes - a method of strengthening eldar ranged AT. Reaper Launcher: S5 Ap3 Heavy 2, or S7 ap4 heavy 1

20-30 pts a model

Gorechild wrote:Ooh I though you meant holo-fields and star engines ect. Generally speaking I think their okay. I think AV13 would work, but not alongside the bonesinger HQ suggestion. even the possibility of AV 14 with holofields is insane

Nulipuli2 wrote:so we can agree on AV 13/12/10 and BS4 and cheaper weapons

I strongly disagree with av 13. You seem to be focusing on what the sm's have that you have forgotten the other armies and races. Here are my problems with the proposal:
1) you just created a fast hammerhead that can carry troops
2) you have just created a fast av13 transport
3) it goes against the fundamental fast, powerful but fragile design of the Eldar

I agree with bs4 and able to fire a second non-defensive weapon but would never agree with making the Tau a pointlessly redundant army. The way I see the Craftworld Eldar is that they are just a hair slower than their dark cousins but are slightly better armoured and much more disciplined/professional. The Craftworld Eldar should win by virtue of their adherence to the path (the skills of specializing in a certain aspect for centuries). They should not win by having technology that outclasses everyone else because that is the Tau's job.

I'm not trying to be harsh here, just trying to add perspective. Will post again soon with some ideas. Will lurk until then.

hmmm i geuss your right, so my opinion is the Falcons stays 12/12/10 still has 6 transport capacity, upgrades/weapons are cheaper has BS4 and has the Aerial assault rule, like the Dark Eldar ravager. move 12" and still fire all weapons, hows that?

I among others proposed moving Falcons to being dedicated transports. This removes them from the overload in Eldar heavy choices.
To that end, I would prefer the AV stays as is.

My related change would be to add a vehicle upgrade that allows all other weapons to be fired as long as the falcon can fire one weapon. I would bring back the old "Crystal Targeting Matrix" as the upgrade that allows for this. It should be a 25 to 35 point upgrade.

War walkers - I am on the other side of previous arguements to move them back to fast attack. They are a light heavy choice. Moving them to FA makes the vypers even less likely to be played.

Fire Prism and Nightspinner are both good as is.

If Dark reapers get relentless they fit the eldar better and their weapons are anti-MEQ. Only other change I would make is allowance to take a dedicated transport.

HW Platforms - agreed they are too vulnerable now and need to be moved to just another guardian platform in a guardian squad. Would like to see the spinner changed to match the night spinner with a large blast template and the night spinner rules. (Rending & Diffucult Terrain) That makes the choice to field them one of survivability (the vehicle) versus firepower (2 to 3 HW platforms in a squad)
Vibrocannon needs to be reworked. 5th ed glance charts makes the base effect almost valueless. I would rather something like this - treat any vibrocannon hit as a penetrating hit but any result of destroyed or weapon destroyed is considered an immobilize result. Add +1 to this roll for every platform beyond the first.

Wraithlords need weapons reduced. As the base WL has two fists, give it 3 base attacks. Make the sword +1 attack and reroll misses. In other threads I have seen suggestions of more wounds but reduced toughness and FNP. Something like W 5 T6 (wraithguard W1 T6 FNP). This changes the immumity of them. Also not averse to units of 1-3 per slot. The overriding problem is total points not limitation of the organisation slots.

War walkers should definitely be moved to FA as that is what they are. Otherwise take away scout from them.

War Walkers - Moved to Fast Attack (although this will upset my 9xWW + 9xHornet list)
Support Platform - Moved to Guardian Defenders - honestly, it's so obvious.
That leaves:
Wraithlord - the walker option
Falcons - the multi-purpose option / lightning strike option
Fire Prism / Nightspinner - the artillery option (could we get a Distortion vehicle?)
Dark Reapers - the infantry option

The beauty with this is that with War Walkers and Hornets in Fast Attack, you gain sufficient long-ranged anti-armour that you can afford to take infantry-punishers like Dark Reapers*

* Whom need to be better at defeating *all* sorts of heavy infantry, not just MEQ, but TEQ as well.

Nulipuli2 wrote:hmmm i geuss your right, so my opinion is the Falcons stays 12/12/10 still has 6 transport capacity, upgrades/weapons are cheaper has BS4 and has the Aerial assault rule, like the Dark Eldar ravager. move 12" and still fire all weapons, hows that?

Very good suggestions, I'd build on to this one; Vectored Engines could possibly be made the aerial assault upgrade, as it is currently serving a dysfunctional role.

Weapon additions shouldn't be made cheaper when BS4, although the Bright Lance and Star Cannon are grossly over-priced (Bright Lance has the monopoly on reliable anti-14, which is the only reason it's price is high.)

The "fire all weapons" option becomes intensely exciting if you add in the suggestion that the under-slung weapon be more freely upgraded. This makes the Falcon even more a glass-cannon. Falcon with 3 Pulse Lasers able to fire them all when moving 12"? Insanely expensive, but, damn... (For the record, even with our suggestions, a pure-pulse Falcon like that would end up 250+ points prior to other upgrades)

Armor and BS on Falcon is fine. It's not a main battle tank, that's the Fire Prism.

It should be a dedicated transport though, and a cheaper base cost.

Am I the only one who sees making falcons a DT as a bad idea?

Its the only way (currently) to access the pulse laser, which would be the best light-AT weapon in the codex, if it wasn't so scarce. All I see if we make falcons DT is the 4x 5xDA+Falcon+shuricannon upgrade+holofields, which sits at 205 pts total at current prices (which should all drop with a 5th ed codex).

Thats 4 pulse lasers, 4 scoring 12/12/10 holofielded tank hulls using only 4 troop slots, for less than 800 pts. Then add in three naked fire prisms and we're still under 1150ish pts.

Maybe its what eldar need, but it sounds stupidly awesome.

Upgrades to the falcon are all well and good. Making it a dedicated transport is dangerous.

How about something like "only 1 per army as transport" like LR w/ terminators. Or maybe one per all elites, and then 1 per all troops?

It would sell more tanks. So it's definitely a possibility.

If the Falcon is moved to dedicated transport I think it would be best if it was only available for Elites. It would stop units of 5 troops holding up in a vehicle with holo-fields and being un-hurtable. It would be useful as a tough transport to get scorps/banshees into combat. If they are too readily available then they will just become the new wave serpents.

Frankly, I'd rather keep them in Heavy Support. In my opinion they have no business in dedicated transport section and if they are made that way, that will only make GW balance it out at the cost of firepower/survivability.

As I said earlier in this thread, balancing heavy weapons, giving the Falcon BS4 and allowing it to move 12" and fire both turret weapons(not ALL weapons, mind) would be pretty much all it takes to make the Falcons very viable again. AV 13 is a possibility, but honestly, I think that this would make it cost way too many points.

I will agree with a couple of comments... A BS4 falcon as a dedicated transport could likely displace the wave serpent especially with 5th ed cost reduction.

An option is to leave it BS3 as a dedicated transport. Yes it provides volume of fire but it is inaccurate (50/50) as opposed to a waveserpent with a 75% accuracy. As I have played it over the years, it is a transport first and a weapons platform second. In previous editions it spent too much time being dinged and not shooting and currently it spends too much time as a smoking wreck unless you add 50 points in vehicle upgrades. Let the vehicles in heavy slots get the BS 4 but move falcons to dedicated transports.

Fire Prism/Night spinner - To remain as is. If it works well why change it? pricing may be a little off, i don't use them enough to comment effectively.

Wraithlord - Good as is... mostly... Ive toyed with the idea of aspect lords, but that would lead to way to many statlines, simply adding more options would suffice, such as,
Replacing the 2 shuriken catapults (attached to the wrists) with flamers, death spinners, reaper launchers, fusion guns, etc
The abillity to take 2 swords, or two of the same weapon without twin-linking them.
The ability to take only 1 main waepon, but take a support weapon as that choice.
Also if they were a little weaker and cheaper, units of them would be feasable, although armed with all the same equipment to avoid wound allocation shenanagins...

Falcon - kept as a 12/12/10 and moved to DT section for small aspect units. Throw in BS4 and the CTM idea and its golden. To avoid the spamming of it as DT the option to take it could be removed for DA, or DA could be unit size 10-15

War Walkers - Split into two units...
1) - Scout Walkers - As is, fast attack choice
2) - Combat Walkers - looses scout, gains a force field of some sort. Was thinking...
Force Barrier: War Walker combat squadrons are often deployed as a front line unit, usually lending mobile firepower to an Eldar infantry advance or as a rear-guard for the faster elements of the Eldar army. As such combat squadrons come equiped with a force barrier, increasing their front armour to 12. An additional effect is that any enemy attempting to assault one or more War Walkers with this barrier with at least one model in the front arc of that/those War Walker/s will have to test for difficult terrain.

HS platforms - Merged into guardian units, taken instead of 2 normal plaforms (or just a 0-1 expensive platform)

Dark Reapers -
USR: Slow and Purposeful.
- Reaper launcher: The reaper missile launcher has the following profile:
Range: 48” S: 5 AP: 3 Heavy 1
Range: 48" S:7 AP:4 Heavy 1
- Tempest Launcher: The Exarch has an ancient reaper launcher that fires clusters of small reaper missiles in a great arc. It has the following profile:
Range: G48” S: 4 AP: 3 Heavy 2, ignores cover, pinning
- Fast shot: The unit is adept at laying down a lethal hail of fire from any weapon, firing shot after shot into the enemy. The unit may add 1 to the number of shots fired by their weapons (example, Heavy 1 becomes Heavy 2) This power may not be used if the unit moves via the USR: Slow and purposeful.
- Crack shot: The members of the unit are supreme masters of ranged combat, able to pinpoint their targets with unerring accuracy. Any cover saves claimed from a unit with crack shot have a -1 modifier.

Ok, rate of fire down, but if the earlier proposal of BS5 is incorperated this won't be a problem, if the BS remains 4 then the 2 shots remain. I also like the idea of different fire modes mentioned earlier aswell, so i put that in.

I like the Falcon in HS with BS4. The Fire Prism fills the "tank" job nicely, but having multiple tanks isn't a bad thing. Fire Prism is your blast tank, Falcon is your massed fire tank.

What we could use is a brand new dedicated transport. The Wave Serpent is akin to a Razorback. (Maybe we could split it's TL guns and drop transport capacity to 6). What we need is a Rhino equivalent. Something that's minimal points with very limited firepower.

Perhaps:
FA 11, SA 11, RA 10, BS3
Twin-linked catapult that can upgrade to single cannon for 10pts
Skimmer, Tank, Fast
It does NOT have the energy field
Standard vehicle upgrades available
Transport 15
Access points: 3, rear and sides
Fire Points: 2, from the side hatches
Give it the option to buy an upgrade to make it an assault vehicle for 10pts

For... 45pts total? 50?

Also, the Fire Prism gun should be ordinance.

45-50 points for a skimmer and fast rhino that you can assault out of for another 10 points? too powerful in my opinion

Ordinance for the Fire Prism would help. It is. in theory, THE AT gun for eldar. Allowing 2 D 6 and taking the best for pen result would increase its effectiveness in this role.
If the small blast would be AP 1 it would increase its pen result effectiveness. With an army limit of 3 in a standard FOC, it would not be OP. The cost would probably need to change, but this would give them a true AT weapon. Leaving it with the small blast template also makes it work different than Tau Rail Guns.

just ordanance for the Fire prisms would be fine, you can already have ap1 by linking 2 prisms,i think thats all that needs to change

I feel like DT falcons are really not a good idea. They are very potent tanks (which we want to make better) these things are balanced in other codexes by being either pricy or requiring HS slots - these proposals remove these limitations.

I think AP2 reapers could be an interesting look. I think the multi fire mode with a S7 ap4 or ap5 weapon is good for some better AT, but ap2 reapers denies FNP and causes TEQs problems. I still like my fast-shot for the squad if they don't move thing.

I don't feel that war walkers to FA is a problem, if vypers and other FA units are fixed to be viable.

I have the opposite feeling on Falcons as DT. As stated it looks like a transport and plays like a transport. The tradeoff is just like marines between rhinos and razorbacks. Bigger squad less firepower or small squad big firepower. Serpents and Falcons are the same way just higher cost with racial philosophy in vehicles. (Fast medium armored transports with no light (rhino/razor) or heavy (landraider) options.) Leaving it a heavy slot means it fights with reapers, prisms, wraithlords and nightspinners for playing time. In that scenario the other options are more specialized to fit a need and less costly. A falcon fights with serpents now and it auto wins not only because other heavy choices are more viable but the gain of potential for a falcon is negligilble compared to a waveserpent and then comes at a higher cost. Make it a DT and let cost and squad size needs define the choice between falcon and serpent.

I hesitate about AP2 on any missile technology so don't like that for the reapers. I would prefer a light fast shooting missile like today or a heavy slow firing missile say the standard krak missile S8 AP3. If you want two profiles make it just like a hand-held EML. Then play with the exarch abilities. (Quick shot + 5 reapers = 10 S8 krak shots coming your way or 10 S4 AP4 blast templates.)

I understand the walkers going to FA but then work it out with vypers side by side for comparison. Currently your choice is fast, open-topped, higher cost versus scout move,
closed, lower cost. IF the costs of walkers was raised to equal vypers then it makes it a philosophy choice. Right now open-topped and higher base cost for gaining speed is a no win for the vypers.

I have to say I find comparing Falcons to Razorbacks quite odd. If comparisons are made, it has a lot more in common with Predators, while Fire Prisms are our Vindicators.

The only thing it does have in common is small transport capacity and honestly, if I had to choose between more dakka and losing the transport completely, I'd definitely choose the former.

Or do we really want Fire Prism/Nightspinner kit to be our only HS option for mech Eldar? :/

I agree with Aeraenion, Falcons dont need to be a DT, their fine in the HS section.

Leave them HS then trick them out. WS 4, ability to move and fire all weapons. Finally some option that gives them some protection. Paying @ 200 pts for a vehicle that needs to cost that much because it gets so many shots but really rarely fires because it is either dead or stunned is a non-starter. 2 x 100-120 pt wave serpents win every time or 2 fire prisms or 2 night spinners...

I am glad you have found them tanks "a la SM Predators," my experience was they were survival transports in 3rd & 4th ed and rarely played since 5th ed came out.
The SM analogy used to be spend @ 200 pts for Landraider-like survivablity but even with Spirit Stones and Holofields it fired no more than once or twice in a 6 turn game. Nowadays with penetrating hits being likely the survivability is somewhere above a predator for @200 points. Would you like to field a predator for @ 200 pts or two prisms for @ 250 pts? Leaving Falcons in HS right now is guaranteeing they won't get played. BS4 vehicles with 3+ shots S8 shots that never fire because they are continually stunned is not what I want to spend my HS slots on.

I agree with DAaddict, Falcons really need to be more different from Serpents to even be considered. They are currently acting like a 'serpent with worse protection, no TL, higher price and has to use a HS slot.
The only real benefit is that you don't need to fork out for the DAVU - but then again, that means you're losing scoring.

Realistically, even if they are made DT, they also need to offer a difference to serpents other than just "potentially stronger if I stand still".

P.S. Oh, and the clowns need a car.

Perhaps changing Holofields so they work on the AP, not the damage rolls? That'd nerf the survivability, but would up the chance that it will be able to fire.

Wait... if the fire prisms are ordinance then would the small blast also be ordinance, because otherwise I see no point and it actually being a detriment.

Perhaps allow the falcon as a DT provided it's bellow X points. I'm not too good at estimating viable cost, so I'll leave someone else to consider what a possible limit may be.

Mahtamori wrote:I agree with DAaddict, Falcons really need to be more different from Serpents to even be considered. They are currently acting like a 'serpent with worse protection, no TL, higher price and has to use a HS slot.

This is their biggest issue, they suffer because they do the same job as a serpent but not as well AND they cost more points! They need defining so that there is no overlap in their roles or improving so that the increase in cost is justified. Now they are stuck as a "Jack of all trades, master of none" which just doesnt work with eldar.

The targeting matrix would go some way to fix this I think, but that alone I dont think will save them.

rivers64 wrote:Wait... if the fire prisms are ordinance then would the small blast also be ordinance, because otherwise I see no point and it actually being a detriment.

Ordinance can either be the large blast (what you typically see), a small blast, a standard shot, or even a template. It has nothing actually to do with the size of the blast marker (although, if it just says ordinance blast, that means large blast, but that's just a holdover to clarify older codexes).

What making it Ordinance does is two things:
1) It can't fire the Prism Cannon and the underslung TL-Catapults/Cannon. (Not a big deal, I sometimes forget it even has that gun)
2) On an armor penetration roll, you roll 2d6 and take the highest

It'd improve the anti-vehicle ability of the Prism Cannon and make it more in line with the fluffy Tanks with a single big gun are ordinance.

Going back to a razorback analogy. Currently a BA rhino costs @50 vs @60 for anti-personnel razorback vs @90 for an AT razorback. The waveserpent/falcon has 12 AV so it should cost more.

The cheapest wave serpent - TL Shuriken Cannons- runs about 90 pts but the falcon has anti-tank power built in by virtue of its pulse laser, the falcon with the cheapest secondary weapon costs what around 125 but has no survivability. The survivability options are @ 50 pts so the true difference is 90 vs 175.

Virtually 1.5 to 1 like the SM. The problem to me is a wave serpent is not 2 to 1 better than a rhino nor is a falcon 3 to 1 better than a razorback as a transport or 2 to 1 better than a dakka pred as a tank. The survivability of eldar vehicles needs to be accounted for but this means their price needs to be somewhere less than today. So if a TL Cannon Serpent is a better protected AP razorback form the BA. It needs to cost somewhere more than 60 points anywhere up to the 90 points of today.

So the falcon is comparative to an AT razorback or dakk pred in its role. Magically these cost about the same for a marine. They in turn are about 1.5 the cost of a rhino so for me the base playability/cost issue is whereever a waveserpent is costed a falcon - with survivability - should cost about 1.5 that base cost of wave serpent.
So if the base serpent is 60 to 90, ideally a falcon should run about 90 to 135 to make it a viable option. Personally so the eldar does not end up with cheap tank spam, I would like to see the cost somewhere from 80+ for a waveserpent with TL Shuricannon and 120+ for a falcon with shuricannon.

That basis is really around the current capabilities of a falcon. (BS3, only 1 weapon fireable at 12" move, semi-protection of a holofield in 5th edition world.) If you increase the BS, the value of the guns really goes up. If you increase the weapons that can fire, the cost of the vehicle goes up. If you try to get survivability back to something like 3rd/4th edition, the cost goes up. Those enhancements could be built in or even dealt with as vehicle addons. (e.g. Crystal Targeting Matrix granting the ability to fire a second weapon, Holofield working like the DE personal defense allowing your to ignore D3 hits per fire phase, CTM also adding +1 to WS, etc.)

If a falcon costs 50% more than a serpent, it is priced about right where it will be used. If it starts approaching 100% more in cost, it will remain a non-played vehicle.

If we simply compare the Wave Serpent and the Falcon in terms of effectiveness:

Hull: Same. Base price constant.
Defensive weapons: Same. Price constant.
Purchased weapon: 50% more efficient Wave Serpent. But this you pay separately for.
Default weapon: None wave serpent, pulse laser Falcon.
Default upgrade: Energy Field wave serpent.
Transport capacity: 12 v.s. 6

So the comparison is:
Extra weapon (Pulse Laser) versus Energy Field & +100% TC.

We know from Hornet (taking semi-official as precedent...) that the Pulse Laser is roughly 40 points. The question is thus:
How many points are the Energy Fields and extra transport capacity worth?
and
Is a second weapon that you will most likely not fire really worth 100%?

I'd personally argue that the Wave Serpent is well costed, but rather the other, cheaper, vehicles in other codices are too greatly discounted.

My own knee-jerk reaction is:
1. Cut price of Falcon down to same as Wave Serpent
2. Make Falcon able to fire up to 2 normal weapons when travelling at or below Cruising Speed
3. Make Falcon Dedicated Transport.

Wave Serpent: More survivable and larger transport.
Falcon: More offensive and less survivable transport.
Prices roughly the same.

The alternative is to make Falcons Vehicle Squadron (1-3), cut base price to similar to Wave Serpent, remove transport capacity, and discount the extra weapon by roughly 20%
This has precedent in several other armies where a slightly weaker vehicle is "squadronized".

P.S. I seem to have misplaced my codex

P.P.S. DAVU must be addressed, but I believe the easiest way is to add Exarchs as mandatory would fix it.

in my opinion, you can make the falcon a DT, or you can make it a HS fire platform, but you can't do both at the same time (make it a DT fire platform transport).

I support making it a HS fire platform, because we already have one of the most resilient non-LR transports (and fastest) in the game.

I'm not sold on the necessity for harlequins to have a transport. If harlies are the best foot assault troop (they are), what keeps them from being the best mechanized assault troop?

These last posts all sound very reasonable. But nothing concrete is said as a solution.

The problem with weapon platforms is that once they are even glanced, all their firepower goes to waste. LRs suffer from that same problem, but they're also transporting deadly unit that can assault out of it, so its usefulness is undeterred by this fact.

As for the Falcon, I don't think it needs a transport capacity at all. I think it needs some kind of a rule that allows it to shoot(limitedly) when otherwise it couldn't. Or some reliable way of avoiding being hit at all. Holofields are all nice and dandy when the tank's main purpose is to keep moving no matter what. But when it comes to shooting, Holofields are useless at that.

Mahtamori wrote:
My own knee-jerk reaction is:
1. Cut price of Falcon down to same as Wave Serpent
2. Make Falcon able to fire up to 2 normal weapons when travelling at or below Cruising Speed
3. Make Falcon Dedicated Transport.

Wave Serpent: More survivable and larger transport.
Falcon: More offensive and less survivable transport.
Prices roughly the same.

The thing is that the falcon can go 1 of 2 ways; Transport vehicle or gun boat. I sit on the transport side of the fence.
I agree with all 3 of Mahtamori's thoughts, another suggestion could be that the falcon could have the assault ramp style rule and make it a dedicated transport only for elites.

Then it needs a larger capacity than just 6-man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I still say that a HS section that has just 2 tanks(both with the exact same kit) is a very, very poor FoC. So should Falcon go DT, I expect at least one other tank taking its place.

The Tyranid codexs has no tanks, they aren't the definition of heavy support. Space Marines don't have any MC's in their heavy support, does that make that very very poor? Just because its different it doesn't mean its bad.

There would still be: Fire Prisms, Nightspinners, Wraithlords and Dark Reapers. Its not like its going to become a sparse FOC slot.

Hah, alright, the way I worded my last post I was just asking for a cheeky response like that. Still, taking your SM as an example...well, they can take Dreadnoughts as their HS with a certain HQ, which is their equivalent of a MC and make all-Dreadnought army.

But fair enough.

Thing is, I like diversity. If I want to take something anti-infantry in HS chart that I really like, I want to be able to take my AT within Elites or Fast Attack, for example. Vice versa, if I really like some anti-infantry Elites, I want to be able to fill in the blanks in AT from HS or Fast Attack. Get my drift?

That Heavy Support chart looks very lacking, in stark contrast with today's overcrowdedness. Then again, the only reason it is considered overcrowded is because all our really good units are here, so we want to be able to take many of them.

In short, I wouldn't really mind a small HS slot, as long as our FA and Elite slots fill in the blanks. But looking at it individually, yes, 4 units is a very sparse FoC slot in my view.

Diversity is important in a fun list.

So far, we are really leaving the Eldar locations right where they are today exceipt:

1. War Walkers to fast attack. (Personnally not sure about this)
2. HW Platforms to being an option for guardians.
3. Falcons to DT.

The rest we have talked about changing qualities (how many Wraithguard to be a troop)or quantities. (squadrons of 1-3 for one thing or another in one FO slot.)

So what we have done is empty the heavy slots: That leaves the walker choice, a troop choice and two vehicles. That gives a good variety of heavies. Pehaps it opens it up for eldar supersonic fighters and fighter-bombers.

Taking the falcon out of the heavy mix lends itself to being played. The points total of the force as a whole is still going to define/modify what you will play. Situationally the theoretical firepower of a falcon might be a good force add especially if I can hide a 5-man DA in it. But if points are king, I might just stay with serpents so I field 3 of them rather than 2 falcons even if I am giving up firepower.

The point is by making it DT it no longer means less walkers or prisms just by the fact I am taking one. The cost and squad limitation and lesser resiliency may mean I don't want one but I have the choice of a potential 9 S 6+ shot vehicle with taking up a heavy slot not entering in the equation.

I think recent codices prove that lists can be made to be fun and competitive, not just overusing the exact same thing. I expect no less from a new Codex: Eldar.

@Araenion

Agreed, allowing Falcons a bit more freedom of use (DT) and making it trade off of style and principle as Mahtamori stated, yields to diversity and also means an opponent doesn't know 90% of your list as soon as you say you are playing Eldar.

The issue of mech armies is a core result of the 5th Ed. changes to vehicle damage. So while ideally I want foot armies to be competitive, my minimal goal is I don't want to see 4-6 serpents + 0-3 prisms + 0-3 walkers + Eldrad, DAs and Fire Dragons as THE eldar list.

While at one level it works, it is quite boring.

I think Falcons should stay in HS and war walkers moved to FA, the Heavy support section is not overcrowded then

While my preference is to make Falcons DT an equitable stay in the HS is fine.

Just give me a reason to field one other than a prism or if the cost doesn't change a DAVU/serpent . What I oppose is any notion that a Falcon is viable when it costs more than a prism, is less accurate and I can field a serpent with dragons or DA for about the same.

I just don't want a codex of 50 something options with fluff but ability and/or cost makes the reality a codex of 5 or 6 playable cost effective options.

The notion of walkers - in a vacuum- better suited to fast attack due to the scout rule they have puts them directly in opposition to a vypers. So I can say I would accept walkers as FA but then give me your fixes to vypers. I have had a few ideas and have seen a number posted but right now, a vyper vs a walker is much in the same position as falcons are to serpents. Costs more and is less survivable but then you can add it offers less firepower as it has two weapons but one is locked into a shuricannon orTL catapult. Don't move walkers to FA and then displace Vypers. Make them different enough and cost effective so that they are both good options.

War Walkers can't exist in the same FoC slot as Vypers and Hornets. It'd be pointless.

DarknessEternal wrote:War Walkers can't exist in the same FoC slot as Vypers and Hornets. It'd be pointless.

Hornets are good, really good, but the War Walker doesn't compete with the Vyper. The Vyper offers speed and sacrifices fire power, move twice as fast with option for significantly better "run" at the expense of a single turret.

The Hornet on the other hand completely wipes the floor with both:
* More accurately costed
* Same fire power as War Walker
* Same speed as Vyper
* Discount on Star Engine
* Better armour than both
* Significantly better model than both

Regardless, what the War Walker is offering is two-fold:
* Better, but slower, fire power for your points
* Ability to tie up a squad of S3 infantry with no risk of losing

One potential fix could be to simply increase maximum squad size. For the price of 3 Hornets you get 5 War Walkers.

For Vypers it's more difficult. The most obvious problem is that they're bloody expensive. The second problem is that they have an unmotivated open-topped special rule. Unless you attach some sort of weird special rule to them, I'd say drop in cost and remove open-topped.
One other way to keep the Vyper interesting is to make the Vyper able to always fire the main weapon regardless of speed.

Vyper (Aspect Warrior) BS: 4 AV: 10/10/10 (45 point base)
TL-Shuricat (can be upgraded to Shurican)
Heavy weapon (can fire even if the unit moved up to 24")

Open-topped just has to go.

The swooping hawks really need a remake.

Mahtamori wrote:For Vypers it's more difficult. The most obvious problem is that they're bloody expensive. The second problem is that they have an unmotivated open-topped special rule. Unless you attach some sort of weird special rule to them, I'd say drop in cost and remove open-topped.
One other way to keep the Vyper interesting is to make the Vyper able to always fire the main weapon regardless of speed.

Open-topped just has to go.

What about twin-linking Vyper main gun and adding a possibility of a better second gun than a shuricannon? At any rate, open-topped does indeed have to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Umm...I just read the rules for a Hornet...are we sure it will make it into the regular 'dex? What is the usual deal with these FW stuff?

As it is, I'm at a loss how to improve the Vyper...because the Hornet is a Vyper only made seriously better. Huh.

If the Nightspinner is a precedent, then the smaller Forge World stuff have a chance of making it, but with improvements. The Hornet is, if you are to believe the preview from earlier months this year, costed conservatively "we'd rather buff it late" philosophy.

Meaning the Vyper is excrements

Another interesting way of handling Vypers is to treat them similar to the Spearhead formation - Vypers are upgrade vehicles for Falcons. You buy one Falcon, and up to 2 Vypers. This way Falcons offer a significant difference from the other tanks and do not have to be made DT to stand out enough.

Also, I'm still of the opinion that Shuriken Cannon should be made extreme-rate-of-fire defensive weapon. Or simply have a special rule that says "I'm a defensive weapon". The Shuricannon upgrade isn't an upgrade at all times.

rivers64 wrote:The swooping hawks really need a remake.

We've had plenty of re-hashes on these, but no good conclusion. They're simply difficult due to proximity in purpose to Spiders.

Some of the suggestions include:
Hybrid - has decent shooting and melee
Oversight - prevent or deter deep striking
Fire Command - lending from Tau marker-lights, applies buffs for shooting on enemies for other units
Hot-shot lasers - simply make them Jump-anti-MEQ
Bombers - makes the grenades the primary attack
Engineers - able to stick down mines and raze terrain

For Swooping Hawks, I think we should stay away from them...they always make a dozen pages with no clear conclusion. Let's see what the codex writers have to say on that matter.

And I'd be extremely glad if the Hornet makes it into the codex: Eldar. It's an awesome little piece of machinery.

An idea...how about if Vypers are made into jetbikes instead of vehicles? Just tougher and with more firepower. Something like assault bikers vs regular ones.

For vypers I'd suggest they loose open topped and gain deep strike (a la land speeder). Then give them a special rule that let's the main weapon always fire.

Another idea I've brought up several times is to only allow war walkers to have certain heavy weapons (shuricannons, scatter lasers ect) and only allow vypers the anti tank weapons.

Gorechild wrote:For vypers I'd suggest they loose open topped and gain deep strike (a la land speeder). Then give them a special rule that let's the main weapon always fire.

Another idea I've brought up several times is to only allow war walkers to have certain heavy weapons (shuricannons, scatter lasers ect) and only allow vypers the anti tank weapons.

This, i totally agree with.

Gorechild wrote:For vypers I'd suggest they loose open topped and gain deep strike (a la land speeder). Then give them a special rule that let's the main weapon always fire.

What do you mean by always fire? Even when moving flat out?

Possibly, seeing as there is a seperate gunner on the back of a vyper I don't see why they shouldn't be able to pull a trigger if the pilot is going fast. It would probably make sense to have a -1 BS modifier if firing when moving flat out though.

A separate gunner is hardly justification, almost no vehicle weapons are fired by the pilot. Aside from that, I can't see that ever being rule that didn't cause the opposition total disgust.

Flying a Scatter Laser from across the board to behind a vehicle would never sit well with anyone.

ok how about the Vyper can fire all is weapons, even when it moved 12", and arent we still talking about heavy Support not fast attack?

@Nulipuli2- We were but we've kind of digressed If you care to set us back on track with some suggestions I'd be happy to run through them

@DE- I don't really see a BS2 scatter laser (that is only really reliable VS AV10) striking fear into many players. It would just help make them stand out as something different and interesting.

ok lets talk about the Dark reapers shall we? lower points cost is a must of course, any other suggestions? there you go Gorechild

How about some specific unit-to-unit synergy?
Dark Reapers: May draw line-of-sight to determine cover and target visibility with their missile weapons from any unit of Dark Reapers or Swooping Hawk.
(Swooping Hawks: Only roll one 1D6 instead of normal 2D6 if they attempt to land within 18" of a unit of Dark Reapers or Swooping Hawks.)

I'm not terribly certain on the second one, just thought I'd give something back to the Hawks.

I think i had suggestions earlier in the thread:

fast shot becomes a squad power linked to relentless - if the squad doesn't move, they get +1 shot

I also feel they could be a source of additional light-AT, with a S7 Ap4 heavy 1 profile, as well as S5 Ap3 Heavy2 profile

targeting vanes are an option - a -1 modifier to cover saves or obscured saves.

Also - 2+ armor (i think they should get it)

Nulipuli2 wrote:ok lets talk about the Dark reapers shall we?

Eldar Missile Launchers instead of Reaper Launchers.

I agree with darkness. Either that or the targeting vanes idea from gwyidion.

Hawks I think should only scatter 1d6 period, or have an exarch power that allows them not to scatter at all.

NO EML. They have a role. Don't change it.

Eldar is based on Speed and Lighting Fast Crippling Attacks.

The "Problem" Right now is not their speed. Eldar is still one of the fastest armies in the game. The "problem" that eldar players face now is that alot of Eldar Weaponry is Overpriced and or not combat effective. Eldar needs more power/ap/melta weapons for a cheaper price.

Eldar need a balistic skill of 4, or it needs its guardians to be reduced in point cost by ALOT. If you look at an Eldar guardsmen and compare it to a conscript they are the same stats, but the eldar player pays 3 points more? Ok lol. Eldar guardians need to be buffed or lowered in point cost.

There are a few things that would make the Eldar Codex more viable.

1) Lower the Bright Lance cost to 25 points.

2) give the wave serpent fire points.

3) Give vypers twin linked weapons and an armor front value of 11.

4) Allow Dark Reapers to bring Str 8 Weapons.

5) Give Falcons an Armor value of 13, and allow its off weapon to be twin linked.

6) Allow Eldar Jetbikes to Bring Melta Weapons/Power Weapons.

7) Allow Shining spears to bring Melta Weapons/Give them a 4+ Invul with 3+ normal and or lower the points value.

8) Increase Wraithguards Range and give them an invul save.

9) Make Wraithlords an elite choice, Dreds are so why not wraithlord.

10) Make more Psychic Powers. A Str 8 Lighting Strike AP 2 would be nice.

11) Make Eldrad ignore instant death.
Give Phoenix lords invul saves.

12) Give Guardians something to make them actually decent or viable.

13) Warlock Power/Farseer Power- Open Warp/Teleport gate. 30 points.
Exarch Power- Teleport

"The Eldar Farseer is able to open a rift in the warp, allowing Eldar elite units with an exarch to warp in. During the Eldar players movement phase, if the eldar passes a psychic test, a warp is opened anywhere 6 inches from the eldar farseer. units warping in may assult/shoot that turn".

I think Eldar Elite choices should have the ability to Teleport in, much like CSM players and Icons. This would make eldar elite units viable, and would allow the eldar player to effectively use his elite units.

These are some of my ideas. I think GW must do a few things when updating the codex.
1) Rebalance the point costs, especially those of Bright Lances and Guardians.

2) GW needs to make Striking Scorpains an Banshees Viable. they need to reach their target somehow.

3) Eldar need Melta weapons on simple units.

4) More Phychic powers/Warlock powers need to be added.

5) The entire army should be given a BS of 4. Why does Eldar have Bs3 but Dark Eldar have bs4? It doesnt make sense and needs to be changed.

The best thing to do with Swooping Hawks, I think, is give their Exarch the ability to strike with haywire grenades at his usual number of attacks. Coupled with never needing more than 4+ to hit a vehicle, that means he'd have good chance of doing something to the vehicle, especially if the grenades are made better. Don't know what they are in the new Codex: Dark Eldar.

And it'd be good if they had the ability to consolidate d6 away from the vehicle BEFORE it gets to explode on them, taking half of the models with them.

As for the Dark Reapers, I quite like Gwydion's suggestion + DarknessEternal's, just as long as we realize Fast Shot on the whole squad equipped with EMLs is a bit OTT. Crack shot too.

The dark reapers role in 2nd (3rd?) Ed was long range with proper missile launchers. I don't see why we shouldn't consider changing them back, especially with the lean towards cover and vehicles in 5th ed?

5) The entire army should be given a BS of 4. Why does Eldar have Bs3 but Dark Eldar have bs4? It doesnt make sense and needs to be changed.

A Dark Eldar that isn't capable with a gun will end up as a corpse or stuck in a slave in a weapons factory. An Eldar that can't fire a gun can still be a highly successful and important part of their society, they can simply be drafted in as a guardian as and when they are desperatly needed.

I'm against giving Reapers EML's, I'm firmly in the "more variety = more fun" school of thought. When Guardians and every vehicle can have EML's why do you need a unit dedicated to them? I think Reapers would either need a S7 anti transport mode for their weapons, or the exarch to have a extra special anti tank weapon. Personally I'm a big fan of the Heavy 2 AP3 weapons, just not the mad point cost that comes with them!

I'd like to see Crack Shot made squad-wide for Dark Reapers instead of Exarch-only. But I'm concerned that might be a bit unbalanced.

Plus, I've a sneaking suspicion that if we did get that, it'd promptly get farmed out to the Marines, IG, and Tau in fairly short order...

give the wave serpent fire points.

I'm somewhat dubious about this one, personally. The Wave Serpent is supposed to be a sealed environment craft that can even be used in a vacuum. Firing points don't exactly fit with that. But firing points are so ridiculously common and over the top right now that I'm not sure what else could be done to compensate for the Serpent not having any. I think it would be fun to allow Rangers to snipe models using the firing points, but that might set a bad precedent.


My fluffy vibro-cannon idea -

Models hit by a vibro-cannon don't get cover saves (the ground is shaking - that wall you're hiding behind isn't going to protect you!). Additionally, any models hit by a vibro-cannon that are within an inch of an object that provides a 4+ or 5+ cover save must take a dangerous terrain test if they move during their next turn due to the cover being shaken and breaking apart (6+ cover is too light to pose a serious hazard, and 3+ cover is too sturdy to readily collapse).

@gorechild: I would be more than happy with this. I suppose if they went this way though, i would want BL's to come down a smidge in price. Yes, sacrificial fire dragons are great, but they're in almost every Eldar army and the Eldar aren't supposed to be a sacrificial style army. Every Eldar life is supposed to be sacred, dying race and all...

@Slice- If you hop back a couple of pages (maybe page 2 or 3?) you'll find all the changes we've suggested to heavy weapons in general, point reductions and changing things to stop everything being S6. They are the basic framework we've been working around.

Bit or a re-working and it comes out like this. Thoughts?

Dark Reaper
4 4 3 3 1 4 1 9 3+
Reaper Exarch
5 5 3 3 2 5 2 9 3+

SPECIAL RULES
Infantry.
WARGEAR
Reaper launcher: The reaper missile launcher has the following profiles:
Range: 48” S: 5 AP: 3 Heavy 2
Range: 48” S: 7 AP: 4 Heavy 2
EXARCH WARGEAR
Tempest Launcher: The Exarch has an ancient reaper launcher that fires clusters of small reaper missiles in a great arc. It has the following profiles:
Range: G48” S: 5 AP: 3
Heavy 2, ignores cover, pinning, small blast
EXARCH POWERS
Snap shot: The unit is adept at laying down a lethal hail of fire from any weapon on the move. If the unit moves their weapons are treated as Assault 1
Crack shot: The members of the unit are supreme masters of ranged combat, able to pinpoint their targets with unerring accuracy. Any cover saves claimed against a unit with crack shot have a -1 modifier.

dayve110 wrote:
WARGEAR
Reaper launcher: The reaper missile launcher has the following profiles:
Range: 48” S: 5 AP: 3 Heavy 2
Range: 48” S: 7 AP: 4 Heavy 2

I think Heavy 1 would be better (although that screws up the snap shot rule suggested), unless the AP was changed more significantly. Maybe you have S5 AP3 or (adding two to both stats) S7 AP5. I'm still not convinced that a unit theat can fire that many shots at such range shoud be that strong.

dayve110 wrote:
EXARCH WARGEAR
Tempest Launcher: The Exarch has an ancient reaper launcher that fires clusters of small reaper missiles in a great arc. It has the following profiles:
Range: G48” S: 5 AP: 3
Heavy 2, ignores cover, pinning, small blast

G48" is outdated, not that it makes any difference but I'd re word it to " Range: 48” S:5 AP:3 Heavy 2 blast, Barrage.

dayve110 wrote:
EXARCH POWERS
Snap shot: The unit is adept at laying down a lethal hail of fire from any weapon on the move. If the unit moves their weapons are treated as Assault 1
Crack shot: The members of the unit are supreme masters of ranged combat, able to pinpoint their targets with unerring accuracy. Any cover saves claimed against a unit with crack shot have a -1 modifier.

I like the snap shot suggestion, it's an alternative to giving them the option to move normally or have S&P.
Crackshot is a nice middle ground between what we have currently and the (IMO) slightly over the top idea of etting the whole unit ignore cover.

All in all I like it

Mahtamori wrote:How about some specific unit-to-unit synergy?
Dark Reapers: May draw line-of-sight to determine cover and target visibility with their missile weapons from any unit of Dark Reapers or Swooping Hawk.
(Swooping Hawks: Only roll one 1D6 instead of normal 2D6 if they attempt to land within 18" of a unit of Dark Reapers or Swooping Hawks.)

I'm not terribly certain on the second one, just thought I'd give something back to the Hawks.

I actually like this idea, different aspect warriors boosting each other, either as an innate special rule or as an Exarch power. It could result in some less used/viable units to be taken as a support roll for more popular ones. Preferably I would like to see them guided something like this:

-Exarch power: Needing both the giving and receiving units' Exarchs to take it. This would help balance points cost between scenarios of three giving units to one receiving unit (or reversed) and also let the point cost scale based on unit size if it becomes more advantageous if one half is larger (e.g. In the quoted DR/SH synergy 10pts per SH unit (so 10pts for one spotter unit, 30 for 3; Fixed price per unit as the effect is the same if there's 5 Hawks or 10) then a 2pts/model cost on the DR end (ability more powerful the more DR in a unit)).
-No aspect giving more than 2 bonuses: We don't want one aspect a must have because it gives a bonus to every other aspect
-No aspect receiving more than 2 bonuses: We don't want to take everything just to make one aspect invincible (or do we )
-Bonuses only travel one way: This would mean if the Hawk's synergy is to act as DR's spotters there would be no chance to have a synergy where Hawks get a bonus from DR. This would help cut down on the chances that a single team up will become a must have.

As for actual synergies (receiver/giver: (Power Name) power rules [Fluff Notes/reasoning]):
DR/Hawks: (Circling/Spotters) DR do not require LoS to fire upon a unit within 6" of a Hawk. Hit units do not receive cover saves from intervening units or terrain (Saves from occupied cover my still be taken). [Mahtamori's wording seemed a little too much for me, this way I feel it still gets the intention/fluff across without becoming too OPed]

Banshees/Scorpions: (Shady Backup) Any successful roll to wounds against a unit of Banshees may instead be taken against a unit of Scorpion engaged in assault with the attacker. This shift of wounds is done before rolling saves, which are then taken as normal. [While the foe is distracted by the Banshees' howls/onslaught, the Scorpions take the chance to sneak closer allowing their more nimble allies to jump back behind their tougher armour. Over all this leaves the Banshees more likely to survive after the initial assault, a problem they seem to have, but at an obvious risk. I had considered just giving the Banshees a reroll on the saves, but I like the idea of Eldar tactics being a little more subtle and deeper, do you take the hit and leave those better in prolonged assault, or do you take the better save to allow the Banshees to live long enough to get the first hit again later.]

Banshees/Avengers: ('kay, thanks, bye) While all enemy units currently in base to base with the Banshees are also in base to base with DA, the Banshees may make use of the Hit and Run USR. [With their part done the Banshees move one to find a fresh foe. Again Banshees don't like prolonged combat, but giving Banshees Hit and Run outright might be a little too much to ask.]

Hawks/Scorpion: (Sharp-Eyed Flankers) When attempting to deep strike within 12" of a Scorpion model, Hawks will only scatter 1d6". [With the Scorpion's infiltrate this can get the Hawks where you want them. The problems I saw with Mahtamori's suggestion was that 18" seemed like too large an area and DR are likely to stay back when you want Hawks attacking the enemy tanks that will also stay back (I think, did we ever really decided what to do with Hawks?)]

Shining Spears/DR: (Support Fire) Shining Spears do not need to test to use Hit and Run against a target hit be DR shooting in the Eldar's previous shooting phase. Alternative: Shining Spears gain +1 attack against a target hit be DR shooting in the Eldar's previous shooting phase. [As the foe cowers from the bombardment they are unprepared to engage the new areal threat]


I tried to keep the abilities somewhat toned down while also giving enough incentive to cause the "Standard" Eldar list to diversify and become more varied. I wanted to see it follow the patters of, "Well I'm taking DR, so it's probably a good idea to have a unit of Hawks to act as spotters. But I'll want them to Land where I want them, so a unit or two of Scorpions what go astray. If I'm taking Scorpions the..." Ideally all the synergies would come full circle so no matter where you start you'd end up wanting to take a unit of each.

One of the things I've always wished was better explored in the eldar codex was the property of being eldar that makes one psychically inclined.

Rules such as:
Rangers : all eldar units which fire at a unit rangers have shot at in the same shooting phase treat their weapons as twin linked
Guardians : may use the leadership value of any model within 12" for all leadership and morale tests.
Harlequins : enemies within 6" of harlequins suffer a -1 penalty to their leadership value for each model the harlequin unit outnumbers their unit by. (a 5-model Ld10 unit taking a test near a 10-man harlequin unit takes tests at ld5)
Farseers & warlocks: if a farseer can see the unit or model which inflicted a wound for which a warlock is about to roll a save against, the warlock may reroll if he fails.
Avatar: The avatar's strength is proportional to the number of eldar near him. He gains +1 S for every 10 models within 12".

Thoughts on above:
don't like EMLs on reapers. S8 is a very special strength value - it instant kills T4, obviously, which can be very powerful. S7 is anti-tank enough.

Dayve110's reapers are pretty nice, but i would change a few things -
#1 is add slow and purposeful
#2 is change the 3+ armor to 2+ armor

and thats it. point them right and i feel like those are good for DRs.

Smitty, a lot of your suggestions have problems...

2) wave serpent with fire points is iffy considering the durability of wave serpents and the firepower of some eldar units. This allows dragon wagons to move, flambe ANY tank in the game outside of the monolith, and place themselves at little to no risk of reprisals. That, all by itself, is a perfectly good reason to never put fire points on a wave serpent. (not to mention the fluff reasons)

4) Instant death to T4 models, no cover saves, ap3, high # of shots. No. (not for the amount of points i'd like to be able to field the models at, anyway)

5) Take away its ability to transport anything, and sure, why not.

6) Eldar jetbikes + meltas + power weapons = other troops choices never see the light of day (except for stormies. shooting their flamers and meltas out of firing points on wave serpents)

7) this doesn't fix shining spears. they suck because they're a fragile unit which has to get into CC against an enemy unit that is - small, high save, has no invulnerable, and can't hurt them in return.

8) wraithguard with an invulnerable save = a unit which will never, ever, ever die. +Range = yes, invuln = no.

9) Dreads aren't 3W T8 MCs.

10) not really in the idiom of the eldar. A better power would be the ability to make a psyker's head explode if he uses a psychic power which has a weapon profile.

11) I assume you mean Eternal warrior - why? he isn't an eternal warrior. He just isn't.
11.5) Sure, why not. They're still bad. They need more revamping than a invuln.

13) so, a farseer is sitting in a wave serpent, which moves flat out. The farseer then uses this power (which isn't a shooting attack), and deploys three eldar elite units, which can then do whatever they want. I hope I don't have to diagram why allowing a 36" charge range with absolutely no risk is a bad thing.

Gorechild wrote:All in all I like it

Thanks!

Just had a thought! Not much thinking through... but we can rip it apart and put it back together unit it works right.
So far we've been holding off on warlocks, if we bump up warlock power/stats/abilities to improve their units (guardians, storms, bikes) then we inevitably make the seer council OP... so...
Why not have 2 ranks of warlock? For working titles lets go with Apprentice and Battle Mage.

Essentially the Battle Mages are there for unit champion stand ins, having reieved sufficient training to be able to operate alone and command a unit. The battle mage for instance could be able to take 2 powers, one sustained, as it is now, always on and one requiring a psychic test. Along with a slightly better stat-line

The Apprentices would follow the farseer around, the farseer charged with keeping them safe while they learn important battefield roles. Their powers would be limited and basic, not having fully trained themselves in the art of war. There could be an option to include one battle mage, so as to have one powerful warlock spell but not OP the unit as a whole.

Here's a thought: how holy is the seer council?

There's a few ways you can go about this:
1. Keep it the way it is (Warlock unit is an independent unit purchased as a 0-1 upgrade to Farseers)
2. Stick the Seer Council down as an elite unit.
3. Scrap Seer Council completely and make them so that
a. you can purchase one warlock per type: infantry or type: jetbike squad, regardless of Aspect Warrior or not!
b. they are a body guard to Farseers
c. they may only be purchased by Guardian squads

Naturally, 3c lends itself best to upgrading the Warlocks, while the current strength-level on the Warlocks would lead to them being quite a good unit on their own right in the elite slot (2). If you are able to purchase them for all units (including for example Banshees) as per 3a, their psychic powers need to be looked over and the integration between certain Exarch abilities.

4. As an alternative you could revive them by incorporating them in craftworld specific sub-codices.
Non-Ulthwe can purchase them for Guardians, Ulthwe can purchase them for all non-jump infantry. Or Ulthwe can purchase entire units of them.

Design 4 lends itself best of all to power increase.

dayve110 wrote:

Gorechild wrote:All in all I like it

Thanks!

Just had a thought! Not much thinking through... but we can rip it apart and put it back together unit it works right.
So far we've been holding off on warlocks, if we bump up warlock power/stats/abilities to improve their units (guardians, storms, bikes) then we inevitably make the seer council OP... so...
Why not have 2 ranks of warlock? For working titles lets go with Apprentice and Battle Mage.

Essentially the Battle Mages are there for unit champion stand ins, having reieved sufficient training to be able to operate alone and command a unit. The battle mage for instance could be able to take 2 powers, one sustained, as it is now, always on and one requiring a psychic test. Along with a slightly better stat-line

The Apprentices would follow the farseer around, the farseer charged with keeping them safe while they learn important battefield roles. Their powers would be limited and basic, not having fully trained themselves in the art of war. There could be an option to include one battle mage, so as to have one powerful warlock spell but not OP the unit as a whole.

I like this alot too (you're on a roll this week ). It would sort out all of the problems we were worrying about with making them decent squad leaders

Maybe introduce 3 tiers of psychis powers: Seer, Warlock and Apprentice Warlock. Say you can select any powers from their tier or lower. Something along the lines of:

Seer: Doom, Guide, Fortune, Eldritch Storm (given we change it)
Warlock: Mind War, Conseal
Apprentice: Enhance, Destructor

Obviously that doesnt include everyhting but it will help with my example. A Doomseer could also have Conseal and be joined by 5 Apprentices with destructor. A guardian squad could be joined by a warlock with Conseal and enhance.

It would allow us to make psychers more prolific in the ary without uttery breaking the seer council.

The Seer council is good as it is, are we done with the Dark Reapers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and its much easier to talk about one unit at a time, so lets stick to it guys!

Nulipuli2 wrote:The Seer council is good as it is

Thats the point, they are brilliant as they are, but we want to be able to improve warlocks so that they become more prolific psykers without breaking the seer council.

Nulipuli2 wrote:are we done with the Dark Reapers?

Well there seem to be a lot of good suggestions from dayve110, if you check through his suggestion and find anything else you might want to tweak then we can throuw some more suggestions around

Dark Reapers: 20 points per model
WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
4 5 3 3 5 1 1 9 3+
Reaper Launcher:
48" Str: 5 AP:3 Heavy 1
or
48" Str: 7 AP:4 Heavy 1
Special Rules:
Slow and Purposeful
Exarch Powers:
Fast Shot-every dood in the unit gets +1 shot if the unit did not move
Crack Shot-enemy gets a -1 modifier on cover saves made


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i still find we should not change the warlocks, or the seer council. Maybe some more Psychic powers, but thats all

Nulipuli2 wrote:Dark Reapers: 18 points per model
WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
4 5 3 3 5 1 1 9 3+
Reaper Launcher:
48" Str: 5 AP:3 Heavy 2
or
48" Str: 7 AP:4 Heavy 1
Special Rules:
Slow and Purposeful
Exarch Powers:
Fast Shot-every dood in the unit gets +1 shot if the unit did not move
Crack Shot-enemy gets a -1 modifier on cover saves made

Fast shot in this version is incredibly powerful, for about 200 points you could have a unit that lays down 30 S5 AP3 shots at 48". I know Reapers are over costed at the moment but I think 18 points is too few. A unit of 10 would basically guarentee you kill a full SM squad each turn.

Edit: 20 points, both guns are Heavy 1, hows that?

I don't think the matter is the heavy 2 for S5, The problem as I see it is the exarch power and the point cost per model. If it was S5 Heavy 2 or S7 Heavy 1 with S+P they would be in the 20-25 point range, Then we'd just need a 2nd Exarch power.

Gorechild wrote:
Fast shot in this version is incredibly powerful, for about 200 points you could have a unit that lays down 30 S5 AP3 shots at 48".

There's another problem; Reapers should be 3-5.

The only time they were any other size was when they were a squad of 3 exactly (no changes allowed).

3-5 with Eldar Missile Launchers. Still can't give them Crack Shot or Fast Shot though. GW might consider something so absurd, since that's the new standard, but I could never live implementing it.

What if they simply had S5 Ap3 Heavy 3? Give more incentive to standing still and laying down a barrage.

I don't see the purpose of forcing AT on them if it is possible to get it elsewhere in the army (which is the aim of most of what we suggest - make AT options other than Fire Dragons viable)

Given the improvements we've suggested for the heavy weapons, Eldars ranged AT would be in a much better state than it is now. Giving an AT option would stop them being a "one trick pony", but when thinking about it, isn't that what aspect warriors are meant to be? If the squad was limited to 5 models then an exarch power to give +1 shot would be okay I guess, but on a unit of 10 it becomes too powerful. If they were kept with 1 fire type then I think 48" Heavy 2 S5, with Slow and Purposeful and Fast shot (+1 shot if they dont move) and crack shot (cover saves reduced by 1) would make them viable. Then it would just be a matter of costing them appropriatly.

I don't know, (if the Exarch is armed with a default reaper launcher) Heavy 2 with SnP and FS... 10 shots on the move, 15 stationary?

Currently you get 0 on the move, 11 stationary... i don't see the price dropping that much if your beefing up the shots and the whole unit gets crack shot (-1 to cover saves)

I prefer my Snap shot approach... 5 on the move, 10 stationary.

How about just relentless... 10 on the move, 10 standing still.

dayve110 wrote:I don't know, (if the Exarch is armed with a default reaper launcher) Heavy 2 with SnP and FS... 10 shots on the move, 15 stationary?

Currently you get 0 on the move, 11 stationary... i don't see the price dropping that much if your beefing up the shots and the whole unit gets crack shot (-1 to cover saves)

I prefer my Snap shot approach... 5 on the move, 10 stationary.

It depends if you want them reduced in points more than you want them to have more dakka.
I think that either opion is an improvement on the current set up though

relentless, 10 moving and 10 standing still, is best, though we should find another exarch power if we make that the case.

On the other hand, a unit which puts out 15 S5 Ap3 shots is still way overpriced at 35ppm.

They're still T3 3+ models, no matter how you slice it, and long ranged low Ap weapons are not great.

Would be interesting if they fully negated cover save as well (going to the fluff about how they pride themselves being some of the most accurate, even by Eldar standards)

A complete negation of cover saves would make them more effective against more targets, and I think it would be better to include than a cover save modifier.

On the other hand, if there is any model in the codex which should ignore cover, it would be pathfinders.

I also still feel that reapers are a prime place to buff the long ranged AT of the codex. They are still a one-trick pony set up with S5 ap3, an it doesn't go against fluff to make them effective against multiple targets - they are still murdering from far away.

30ppm (3-5 models)
WS/BS/S/T/A/I/W/Ld/Sv
Dark Reaper
4/4/3/3/1/5/1/9/2+
Dark Reaper Exarch
5/5/3/3/2/5/1/10/2+

Relentless
Reaper Launcher:
S5 Ap3 R48" Heavy 2
Or
S7 Ap5 R48" Heavy 1

Tempest Launcher:
S4 Ap3 R48" Heavy 2 small blast (as now, +12")

The real question is, what do we want to do about cover?
Relentless fixes them in DoW deployment, gives them some mobility. The 2+ armor makes them less vulnerable to having only 5 models in a squad (a necessary change, in my opinion). The S7 shot allows them some diversification and buffs the codex's ranged AT.

Cover is a major problem for R48" shots - especially AP3 shots. -1 modifier isn't bad, is a complete removal of cover overpowered? It would parlay nicely into ignoring obscured for shooting at those fast movers or other AV12- hulls (S7 is, lets face it, anti-AV11 or worse, which is fine).

We could do a few things, all with a piece of wargear:
targeting vanes:
Cover and obscured saves taken against wounds inflicted by the reapers in shooting are modified by -1 (i.e., a 4+ becomes a 5+).
or
Cover and obscured saves may not be taken against wounds inflicted by the reapers in shooting.
or
Successful cover and obscured saves taken against wounds inflicted by the reapers in shooting must be rerolled.

or, we can not do anything about it. Even forcing marines to roll on 4+ is moving them from a 16ptish save to a 8-12pt ish save.

What about something similar to the tyranid hive guard, i.e. they ignore cover saves granted by intervening models and terrain but if the target is in area terrain then they still get their cover save.
Of the other options I think a -1 modifier is the better way to go.

I also don't see anything wrong with having the second firing mode be S7 AP 5 heavy 2, that's just an autocannon with worse AP. For a 2+ save with two firing modes and a cover reduction ability they should probably have SnP instead of relentless and cost 35 points easily.

I think ignoring all cover saves would be over the top without increasing their point cost, I do like the re-roll sucessful cover saves and -1 modifier though. With the re-roll you'd (on average) kill 3.3 marines with a squad of 5, the modifier would kill 2.2. For a 200 point unit, is that ok?

Re-rolling saves in general (i.e. power weapon light) is something I'd like to explore.

I'm sorry if I bounce back to Guardians slightly, but I promise not to deal with Defenders.

Re-rolling cover saves for Reapers is a good middle ground. Being Relentless isn't inherently something necessary if they are good enough to merit standing exposed.

With Guardian Storms you have them squeezed in a situation where they are either too much like Scorpions if you give them +1 attack or too much like Banshees if you give them power weapons (not to mention power weapons being classically reserved for more elite models).
What about Reactive Swords or Vibration Swords or whatever you want to call them? Re-roll successful armour saves (i.e. bone swords?)

Maybe combine the re-roll with the -1.

Cover save taken at -1. Re-rolled with normal save if passed?

phyrephly wrote:Maybe combine the re-roll with the -1.

That would average 3.93 wounds Vs MEQ. Seem's okay I guess, it all depends on how many points they would be (especially the exarch powers). Keeping them as they are but improving it to a 2+ save and giving S+P I think 25-30 would be okay, probably closer to 30.

Could have (sticking with the same format) 2 Dark Reapers + Exarch for 100 points, Up to 2 extra reapers may be added for 30 points each. May purchase Crack shot exarch power for 20 points (modifies all enemies cover saves 1, re reroll all sucessful cover saves. and Snap shot for 10 points, allows them to move normally (not with S+P) but all weapons count as assault 1.

I'm sticking with S5 Heavy2 and S7 heavy2 with the snap shot rule.
Its not as OP as relentless or SnP but still gives the option to fire on the move.

As for cover saves, i think a -1 is more than acceptable, a re-roll on saves could be a new farseer power (the opposite of fortune? Curse?)

With -1 modifier and snap shot i'd put them at about 25 points. (20 each, 3 points ea for crackshot, 2 points ea for snap shot) Or there abouts.

I'd be wary of putting too much reliance on the Farseers again. Although it is a nice unit to have around, it shouldn't be essential for Eldar success, the current edition is way beyond the 1+ restrictions from past editions.

Mahtamori wrote:I'd be wary of putting too much reliance on the Farseers again. Although it is a nice unit to have around, it shouldn't be essential for Eldar success.

I think the other HQ's being rubbish is the real problem. Sure Farseers are good, but we only depend on them because 90% of the time the other HQ's are pointless. The only point to play with an Autarch is if your using yo-yo hawks or full mech all in reserve. An Avatar is pointless unless your all on foot and even then it REALLY benifits from having a farseer to help it survive.

I think the best option would be to improve the farseer and boost its cost considerably so that you'd only ever really need 1, but it can become the psychic powerhouse that it should be. They can hold the roll of psychic defence and epic buff's for your army. Autarch take care of the logistical side of things (entering from reserve, how you deploy, hindering opponents deployment ect) with some combat ability, a sort of all rounder. The Avatar should be the complete and utter master of CC.

If Reapers are properly discussed then I'd like to get busy with the HQ's.

Well i'm happy with reapers being H2 with snap shot and a 2+ save, were not going to agree on every little detail... or we'll be here for weeks on each unit, but we know roughly the general idea (-1 to cover, some sort fire+move, better save, less points)

For HQ's

Avatar
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
X 5 6 6 4 5 4 10 3+

SPECIAL RULES
Daemon: To all intents and purposed, an Avatar is a Daemon and will therefore be affected by weapons and abilities that affect Daemons. He benefits from a 4+ invulnerable save as well as his 3+ armour save and has the USR: Eternal War and USR: Fearless
God of War: The Avatar will always hit on a 3+ in close combat and will always be hit on 5+.
Inspiring: When led by their Avatar, the craftworld Eldar are filled with thoughts of bloodshed, and its presence inspires them to great acts of valour. Any Eldar unit with a model within 12” of the Avatar has the USR: Fearless and USR: Furious Charge
Molten Body: The Avatars body is fashioned from burning iron flooded with glowing magma. Melta weapons (all weapons with the melta type) and flamers (including heavy flamers, flamestorm cannons, etc) cannot wound the Avatar.
Monstrous Creature: The Avatar is a huge and fearsomely strong opponent and therefore has the USR: Monstrous creature.

WARGEAR
The Wailing Doom: The Wailing Doom is a weapon of immense power that may take the form of a vicious spear, a mighty sword or a many-bladed axe; it can be used to project a nimbus of burning energy, using the following profile:
Range: 12” S: 8 AP: 1 Assault 1, Melta

----------

Autarch
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
6 6 3 3 3 6 3 10 3+

SPECIAL RULES
Infantry/Jump Infantry, Fleet of Foot, Independent Character.
Master Strategist: Autarchs are superb strategists, able to command the Eldar units in perfect synchronicity. While the Autarch is alive, you may choose to add or subtract 1 to your rolls for reserves, regardless of whether he is in play or not (a roll of a 1 always counts as a failure and a roll of a 6 always counts as a success)...
In addition one unit in your army may gain scout for every Autarch in your force.

WARGEAR
Assault and defensive grenades.
Haywire grenades.
Shuriken pistol.
Forceshield: The Eldar favour sleeve-mounted field projectors over the clunky and restrictive armour used by other races. A forceshield confers a 4+ invulnerable save.
Normal weapon optoins (as is now)

----------

Farseers and warlocks will need to be done on their own, And Pheonix Lords will need to be done as a seperate group also. For now it should be more than enough work with these two

A few thoughts on preceding.

Avatar: Basically I like it with a couple suggestions. Put the WS at 10. Things like Lilith come to mind. With a WS of X how many extra attacks does she get? Possible enhancements - it is living molten metal. I could see granting it Regen. Not a guarantee but the ability to regenerate means shoot it quick or risk it going back to full strength. I like the melta spear added in the last codex. Perhaps add to that with a heavy flamer template (breath weapon) or a small blast weaker form of the thrown spear. Not allowing more than one being used but providing flexibility.

Edit add: Fluff defines it as daemonic nature. Give it the daemonic advantage. Immune to instant death.

Autarch: This would need to be looked at in detail for some brokeness. Standard values as given but add to it taking any two exarch powers along with any special exarch weapons. Say heavy flamer and executioner with defend and acrobatics as an example. Allow these autarch abilities to be shared with the unit he is attached to. This makes the autarch an extreme combat general offering a different kind of force multiplier than the farseer.

My other change is to restrict the eldar codex again (e.g. Pathfinders removed as standard troop, Jetbikes moved back to Fast Attack, Wraithguard strictly elites, etc.)
Do the new GW way and lift these restrictions by playing a named autarch to get past one of these. (i.e. A named Alaitoc autarch upgrades rangers to pathfinders, a named Saim Hann autarch releases the Jetbikes as troops, etc.)

Between the generic autarch enhancements and the named autarchs, I think autarchs will be desirable for the eldar player.

Phoenix Lords: As a starting point. The easy change is make their costs reasonable. Compared to all other codex, phoenix lords are too costly and offer no benefits to make them an option over an autarch or most certainly a farseer.

The other simplistic change would be to make all of their aspect fearless. The scary one is qualify their aspect to be fielded as troops or more mellow Pedro Kantor-like and qualify their aspect as being able to hold objectives. I like the first option best but live in fear of Fuegan led Fire Dragon armies. It would be desirable to make to allow for the old Beil-tan Scorpion or Howling Banshee cores but again I will turn green if Dakka becomes filled with Fuegan lists or some exploit of Maugan Ra or Baharroth. (The yo-yo army... yuck.) If changing the aspect to troops is allowed that handles everyone but Asurmen as DA are already troops so some unique buff for Asurment would be needed say the SM chapter banner bonus where all DA within 12" qualify for +1 A and being eldar perhaps +1 S or furious charge or perhaps preferred enemy.

dayve110 wrote:Avatar
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
X 5 6 6 4 5 4 10 3+

SPECIAL RULES
Daemon: To all intents and purposed, an Avatar is a Daemon and will therefore be affected by weapons and abilities that affect Daemons. He benefits from a 4+ invulnerable save as well as his 3+ armour save and has the USR: Eternal War and USR: Fearless
God of War: The Avatar will always hit on a 3+ in close combat and will always be hit on 5+.
Inspiring: When led by their Avatar, the craftworld Eldar are filled with thoughts of bloodshed, and its presence inspires them to great acts of valour. Any Eldar unit with a model within 12” of the Avatar has the USR: Fearless and USR: Furious Charge
Molten Body: The Avatars body is fashioned from burning iron flooded with glowing magma. Melta weapons (all weapons with the melta type) and flamers (including heavy flamers, flamestorm cannons, etc) cannot wound the Avatar.
Monstrous Creature: The Avatar is a huge and fearsomely strong opponent and therefore has the USR: Monstrous creature.

WARGEAR
The Wailing Doom: The Wailing Doom is a weapon of immense power that may take the form of a vicious spear, a mighty sword or a many-bladed axe; it can be used to project a nimbus of burning energy, using the following profile:
Range: 12” S: 8 AP: 1 Assault 1, Melta

I was thinking more along the lines of turning the avatar into a 250+ point moster rather than just tweaking its current profile. It is the incarnation of the god of war he should be crazy, Skarbrand (the dishonoured ex-bodyguard of Khorne that has now been replaced by another far stronger bloodthirster) is 300 points, you'd thing the avatar of an actual god would atleast compare to him. I'd want WS10 (always hits on 2+) S6 (re-roll fails to wound) and a load of buff's would be more than reasonable.

dayve110 wrote:
Autarch
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
6 6 3 3 3 6 3 10 3+

SPECIAL RULES
Infantry/Jump Infantry, Fleet of Foot, Independent Character.
Master Strategist: Autarchs are superb strategists, able to command the Eldar units in perfect synchronicity. While the Autarch is alive, you may choose to add or subtract 1 to your rolls for reserves, regardless of whether he is in play or not (a roll of a 1 always counts as a failure and a roll of a 6 always counts as a success)...
In addition one unit in your army may gain scout for every Autarch in your force.

WARGEAR
Assault and defensive grenades.
Haywire grenades.
Shuriken pistol.
Forceshield: The Eldar favour sleeve-mounted field projectors over the clunky and restrictive armour used by other races. A forceshield confers a 4+ invulnerable save.
Normal weapon options (as is now)

Just going to throw forward a few ideas from the old thread that I really liked incase anybody missed them first time round...
1) any units kept in reserve can be grouped togeter. Instead of rolling for an individual unit to enter from reserve, you roll for a whole group. For example
an autarch in a unit of warp spiders, a unit of swooping hawks and a squad of vypers are group 1,
3 units of dire avengers in wave serpents are group 2,
3 fire prisms are group 3.

Instead of rolling 9 dice for reserves you roll 3. If you pass the roll for for group 1 but fail the other two all of the fast attack arrives together, the troops and heavy support stay in reserve. It allows you to deploy units that compliment each other at the same time and avoid odd units coming in on their own to be wiped out.

2)Any board edge not specified as belonging to your opponent count as your own, this means you can enter from reserve from them, and will also fall back towards whichever edge is closest.

just throwing them out there as little interesting additions to consider

DAaddict wrote:A few thoughts on preceding.

Avatar: Basically I like it with a couple suggestions. Put the WS at 10. Things like Lilith come to mind. With a WS of X how many extra attacks does she get? Possible enhancements - it is living molten metal. I could see granting it Regen. Not a guarantee but the ability to regenerate means shoot it quick or risk it going back to full strength. I like the melta spear added in the last codex. Perhaps add to that with a heavy flamer template (breath weapon) or a small blast weaker form of the thrown spear. Not allowing more than one being used but providing flexibility.

Edit add: Fluff defines it as daemonic nature. Give it the daemonic advantage. Immune to instant death.

Change to WS X
Special Rule: God of War: The Avatar will always hit on a 3+ in close combat and will always be hit on 5+. In Instances where a WS value is needed for a special rule, count it as 10.

Regen could be a possibility, but that would be very nasty indeed... I do like the option to use the template or blast, treating the template as a heavy flamer like you said. The blast is more tricky, it can't be too high AP, and it would have to be short range, so im not sure on stats for that one.

I gave him Eternal Warrior (which is immune to Instant Death)

DAaddict wrote:Autarch: This would need to be looked at in detail for some brokeness. Standard values as given but add to it taking any two exarch powers along with any special exarch weapons. Say heavy flamer and executioner with defend and acrobatics as an example. Allow these autarch abilities to be shared with the unit he is attached to. This makes the autarch an extreme combat general offering a different kind of force multiplier than the farseer.

I Don't think Autarchs should recieve Exarch powers.
Exarchs are lost on the path of the warrior and are pretty much bound into their certain aspect for life. An Autarch would have studied each aspect, but not have become lost upon it, therefore would not have learnt the Exarch powers or recieved the Exarch weapons.
This is why he currently has 0 powers and only standard Aspect weaponry. I think it should remain that way and the Autarch gives buffs for deployment and reserves and such.

DAaddict wrote:My other change is to restrict the eldar codex again (e.g. Pathfinders removed as standard troop, Jetbikes moved back to Fast Attack, Wraithguard strictly elites, etc.)
Do the new GW way and lift these restrictions by playing a named autarch to get past one of these. (i.e. A named Alaitoc autarch upgrades rangers to pathfinders, a named Saim Hann autarch releases the Jetbikes as troops, etc.)

Complicated. With the Pheonix lords and a named Autarch for each craftworld (along with people like Eldrad and any non-autarch charecters) the special charecter pages will be overflowing with unused models.
I think its good as it is now being able to take certain units as troops without having to buy a special charecter. If i wanted a Seer/Avatar combo i'd be stuck with DA and Guardians... not good.

DAaddict wrote:Phoenix Lords: As a starting point. The easy change is make their costs reasonable. Compared to all other codex, phoenix lords are too costly and offer no benefits to make them an option over an autarch or most certainly a farseer.
The other simplistic change would be to make all of their aspect fearless. The scary one is qualify their aspect to be fielded as troops or more mellow Pedro Kantor-like and qualify their aspect as being able to hold objectives. I like the first option best but live in fear of Fuegan led Fire Dragon armies. It would be desirable to make to allow for the old Beil-tan Scorpion or Howling Banshee cores but again I will turn green if Dakka becomes filled with Fuegan lists or some exploit of Maugan Ra or Baharroth. (The yo-yo army... yuck.) If changing the aspect to troops is allowed that handles everyone but Asurmen as DA are already troops so some unique buff for Asurment would be needed say the SM chapter banner bonus where all DA within 12" qualify for +1 A and being eldar perhaps +1 S or furious charge or perhaps preferred enemy.

Interesting, i'll leave my ideas baking in my oven until the Avatar and Autarch are sorted to comment fully.

Gorechild wrote:

dayve110 wrote:Avatar
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
X 5 6 6 4 5 4 10 3+

SPECIAL RULES
Daemon: To all intents and purposed, an Avatar is a Daemon and will therefore be affected by weapons and abilities that affect Daemons. He benefits from a 4+ invulnerable save as well as his 3+ armour save and has the USR: Eternal War and USR: Fearless
God of War: The Avatar will always hit on a 3+ in close combat and will always be hit on 5+.
Inspiring: When led by their Avatar, the craftworld Eldar are filled with thoughts of bloodshed, and its presence inspires them to great acts of valour. Any Eldar unit with a model within 12” of the Avatar has the USR: Fearless and USR: Furious Charge
Molten Body: The Avatars body is fashioned from burning iron flooded with glowing magma. Melta weapons (all weapons with the melta type) and flamers (including heavy flamers, flamestorm cannons, etc) cannot wound the Avatar.
Monstrous Creature: The Avatar is a huge and fearsomely strong opponent and therefore has the USR: Monstrous creature.

WARGEAR
The Wailing Doom: The Wailing Doom is a weapon of immense power that may take the form of a vicious spear, a mighty sword or a many-bladed axe; it can be used to project a nimbus of burning energy, using the following profile:
Range: 12” S: 8 AP: 1 Assault 1, Melta

I was thinking more along the lines of turning the avatar into a 250+ point moster rather than just tweaking its current profile. It is the incarnation of the god of war he should be crazy, Skarbrand (the dishonoured ex-bodyguard of Khorne that has now been replaced by another far stronger bloodthirster) is 300 points, you'd thing the avatar of an actual god would atleast compare to him. I'd want WS10 (always hits on 2+) S6 (re-roll fails to wound) and a load of buff's would be more than reasonable.

Well, it is only a fragment of the God, and as such should not be OMG-PWNAGE, if he was that good i see no reason why the craftworlds simply don't re-unite his seperate parts and make him even stronger.
Nothing (i can think of) hits on a 2+ in combat, Even WS10 vs WS1 is a 3+. My God of War rule lets him hit anything on a 3+ which seems decent to me, hitting your opponents 'oh so mighty combat beasties' on a 3.
S6 with re-rolls... Perhaps each Avatar could be equipped differently depending on the craftworld (his fluff does say he could be carrying a sword, axe, spear, whatever) with each weapon conferring different abilities. One could be S8 and 2H for instance. The choice of weapon could also affect the wailing doom attack DAddict suggested (melta, flamer, blast varieties)

For a normal game of 40k, 155 (current) to 200, maybe 225, seems more than enough to spend on one unit (considering how expensive everything else is in our codex)
For an uber combat beasty, maybe he belongs in Apoc (where 2+ craftworlds have joined forces and their Avatar temprarily meld into one all-powerful killing machine)

Gorechild wrote:

dayve110 wrote:
Autarch
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
6 6 3 3 3 6 3 10 3+

SPECIAL RULES
Infantry/Jump Infantry, Fleet of Foot, Independent Character.
Master Strategist: Autarchs are superb strategists, able to command the Eldar units in perfect synchronicity. While the Autarch is alive, you may choose to add or subtract 1 to your rolls for reserves, regardless of whether he is in play or not (a roll of a 1 always counts as a failure and a roll of a 6 always counts as a success)...
In addition one unit in your army may gain scout for every Autarch in your force.

WARGEAR
Assault and defensive grenades.
Haywire grenades.
Shuriken pistol.
Forceshield: The Eldar favour sleeve-mounted field projectors over the clunky and restrictive armour used by other races. A forceshield confers a 4+ invulnerable save.
Normal weapon options (as is now)

Just going to throw forward a few ideas from the old thread that I really liked incase anybody missed them first time round...
1) any units kept in reserve can be grouped togeter. Instead of rolling for an individual unit to enter from reserve, you roll for a whole group. For example
an autarch in a unit of warp spiders, a unit of swooping hawks and a squad of vypers are group 1,
3 units of dire avengers in wave serpents are group 2,
3 fire prisms are group 3.

Instead of rolling 9 dice for reserves you roll 3. If you pass the roll for for group 1 but fail the other two all of the fast attack arrives together, the troops and heavy support stay in reserve. It allows you to deploy units that compliment each other at the same time and avoid odd units coming in on their own to be wiped out.

2)Any board edge not specified as belonging to your opponent count as your own, this means you can enter from reserve from them, and will also fall back towards whichever edge is closest.

just throwing them out there as little interesting additions to consider

1) The grouping together idea was origionally mine, can't recall if everyone decided on it being Autarch specific or simply a race-specific rule. I like the idea of it being Autarch specific.
2) Hmm. It may be OP, especially combined with point 1. Essentially your entire army can outflank and arrive in one big group. Possibly make it so units arriving this way cannot be grouped (so its a tactical choice) Or opening up the scout-giving abilites (say 1/3 of your force, calculated by KP) can outflank

Nothing (i can think of) hits on a 2+ in combat, Even WS10 vs WS1 is a 3+. My God of War rule lets him hit anything on a 3+ which seems decent to me, hitting your opponents 'oh so mighty combat beasties' on a 3.

Several things have this, units all over the pace have the ability via special rules. The first that comes to mind is Kharn the Betrayer and the rules for Gorechild (obviously ). Its not uncommon for CC specialists.

Gorechild wrote:

Nothing (i can think of) hits on a 2+ in combat, Even WS10 vs WS1 is a 3+. My God of War rule lets him hit anything on a 3+ which seems decent to me, hitting your opponents 'oh so mighty combat beasties' on a 3.

Several things have this, units all over the pace have the ability via special rules. The first that comes to mind is Kharn the Betrayer and the rules for Gorechild (obviously ). Its not uncommon for CC specialists.

Well there are certain... Downsides.
Effectivly Kharn cannot miss in his thirst for the spillage of blood, any blood.
The Avatar of Khaine, being the Eldar incarnation of the God of War, should fight with more... finesse, rather than brute force or insane bloodlust.

Things seem to have gone a bit quiet so I'll crack on with some suggestions. As far as the Avatar goes there are two ways forward, tweaking the current set up and keeping him around the 150-160 point mark, or cranking him up to make him special character standard. A few things I'd ike to see either way is some way of the Avatar giving stubborn to the army, either in a bubble like fearless or maybe army wide? The only gripes I have with the current set up for the avatar is the molten body only protecting from flamer + heavy flamers, not things like that SM land raider (can't remember name ). I'd also like to see a toughness boost (but his may only apply if we boost the points).

My prefered idea would be to go for something along the lines of.

Avatar of Khaine - .....points

BS WS S T I A W Ld Sv
-5--10--8-8-8-6-4--10-2+

Incarnation of a God-
The Avatar of Khaine is the physical manifestation of the God of war, hence he has a 4++ save. The Avatar is also treated as a Deamon in all respects.

Wailing Doom-
R12" S8 AP1 Assault 1, Melta. Always Strikes at S8 I8 in combat, regardless of any penalties inflicted by enemy rules/wargear.

Inspiring-
Whilst the Avatar is on the board all friendly units have the stuborn USR. In addition, any friendly model within 12" of the Avatar is fearless.

The Bloody Handed God-
Any enemy unit that attempts to assault the Avatar first pass a leadership test, if failed the assaulting unit may not assault the avatar or any other unit this turn. All Ld tests taken within 12" of the Avatar must do so with a -2 modifier to their leadership.

If he gets T8 and 2+ save, I honestly think that whatever his cost, he must have a special rule denying him the benefit of Fortune. Otherwise it'd be ridiculous.

I like your suggestion, except I strongly disagree with T8. He could have a rule saying Wailing Doom always strikes at S8, but T8 is hardly the way to go for such a combat monster.

The special rules are nice, but I'd add that should any creature wants to engage The Avatar in the assault, they need to pass a leadership check(with that -2 modifier you proposed). That lets him control the flow of the battlefield in addition to granting Fearless and Stubborn to the army.

But Seer powers should have no effect on him.

Updated my last post to include some of your suggestions
I just want a couple more opinions. On the toughness or immunity to friendly psychic powers thing. I can think of a decent way to incorporate the latter if we need. If not it could just be a matter of dropping his toughness to 7 so MEQ's can hurt him.

The only change I would make to the existing Avatar is BS 10. He's a god of war after all and should have a BS higher than the guys who represent aspects of him.

I see no reason to change anything else. He already works well.

@Darkness- I'm not denying he doesn't work at the moment. I just believe that as he is a god of war he should be better than say a Hive Tyrant which is just one of countless millions of big bugs. Wouldn't you agree?

Haha, is there anything at all in all of 40k that has BS of 10? Do they even have rules for BS10?

Yep...Nothing has it, but if your BS 10 then its 2+ to hit and if you fail you can re roll and still hit on a 2+, I wouldnt realy see the need on a model that only has an assault 1 weapon though.

Gorechild wrote:I just want a couple more opinions. On the toughness or immunity to friendly psychic powers thing. I can think of a decent way to incorporate the latter if we need. If not it could just be a matter of dropping his toughness to 7 so MEQ's can hurt him.

Cool.

To give a more detailed reasoning: Toughness 8 means that S4 can't touch him. Most of anti-infantry fire can't hurt him either. MLs hurt him, but need 4+ to do it and then he has 2+ save to save against it. Lascannons hurt him, except he still has 50% chance to shrug it off with his invulnerable. Fortuned up, the chance of a lascannon wounding him is lower than a lascannon single-shoting something useful to a monolith. Melta can't hurt the Avatar.

PFs hurt him on a 4+ and he strikes before any of them with the same effect. Heck, even as a 155 point MC he still eats the usual 5-man TH + SH Termie squads for breakfast when he's fortuned. Basically, your suggestion is a Nightbringer with a 2+ save - all but invulnerable to long-range AT, which is the only reliable way of ever doing something to T8 close combat specialist. That is something from the Apoc, not regular 40k, in my honest opinion.

T7 and 2+/4++ save is streching it. T7 and 3+/4++ save is just about right if we're buffing him to the 250-300 point mark. Or T6 and 2+/4++

And his strength should stay 6, I think. He's not so large or monstrous to warrant a S8 profile. He should only get S8 from his weapon, which is already a melta profile when shot. So basically the same thing, except he'd be S6 for any special rules, psychic powers or somesuch from other codices. Wailing Doom always striking at S8 regardless of any negative modifiers is a nice bonus, though.

Gorechild wrote:Avatar of Khaine - .....points

BS WS S T I A W Ld Sv
-5--10--6-7-8-6-4--10-2+

Unit Type- Monsterous Creature
Wargear- Wailing Doom
Special Rules- Deamon, Incarnation of a God, Inspiring,The Bloody Handed God.

Incarnation of a God-
The Avatar of Khaine is the physical manifestation of the God of war, hence he has a 4++ save. Khaine alone knows the true fate of his avatar's, to represent this an avatar is immune to the Fortune and Guide psychic powers.

Wailing Doom-
R12" S8 AP1 Assault 1, Melta. The Wailing Doom always Strikes at Strength 8 Initiative 8 in combat, regardless of any penalties inflicted by enemy rules/wargear.

Inspiring-
Whilst the Avatar is on the board all friendly units have the stuborn USR. In addition, any friendly model within 12" of the Avatar is fearless.

The Bloody Handed God-
Any enemy unit that attempts to assault the Avatar first pass a leadership test, if failed the assaulting unit may not assault the avatar or any other unit this turn. All Ld tests taken within 12" of the Avatar must do so with a -2 modifier to their leadership.

How does that look?

Gorechild wrote:@Darkness- I'm not denying he doesn't work at the moment. I just believe that as he is a god of war he should be better than say a Hive Tyrant which is just one of countless millions of big bugs.

The Avatar will beat a Hive Tyrant nearly every time, how isn't he better? He also does that while being about 50 points cheaper.

Against a Hive Tyrant, the Avatar goes first, has a higher WS, and has an invulnerable save.

I like the current Avatar because he's cheap enough to be fielded in a practical army while still being quite effective. Making him into an expensive monstrosity might make him more god-of-war-like, but it would also make him unplayable.

I can imagine a "burning corona" rule, or something similar.

The Avatar body radiates and pulses with the flames of war, searing the exposed flesh of his enemies and driving them back with his blazing fury, etc, or something similar.

The Avatar must make one attack on each model in base contact with him during combat, both friendly and enemies (freindly casualties [will/will not] count towards combat resolution for the opposing player) These attacks will be resolved at Initiative 10 and Strength [4/3]. These attacks will allow armour saves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Gorechild wrote:@Darkness- I'm not denying he doesn't work at the moment. I just believe that as he is a god of war he should be better than say a Hive Tyrant which is just one of countless millions of big bugs.

The Avatar will beat a Hive Tyrant nearly every time, how isn't he better? He also does that while being about 50 points cheaper.

Against a Hive Tyrant, the Avatar goes first, has a higher WS, and has an invulnerable save.

I like the current Avatar because he's cheap enough to be fielded in a practical army while still being quite effective. Making him into an expensive monstrosity might make him more god-of-war-like, but it would also make him unplayable.

I believe two statlines would be good.
One for the codex, one for Apocolype only.

Cheap enough that for it to have a practical use you absolutely must devote your Farseer with Fortune to babysit him, because he's too slow to be a threat(will get easily shot down from range) unless he's Fortuned.

That's not cheap. Like Fire Dragons aren't really 90-points cheap, but rather 90 + 100 for the Wave Serpent.

I'd rather pay 250 points for him and have a decent standalone MC HQ that is actually a threat to anything on the board.

With that said, I like the most recent Gorechild's proposal. And I think the addition of Fleet might be reasonable.

Araenion wrote:Cheap enough that for it to have a practical use you absolutely must devote your Farseer with Fortune to babysit him, because he's too slow to be a threat(will get easily shot down from range) unless he's Fortuned.

That's not cheap.

It also isn't true. Whatever style of 40k games you are used to, it certainly isn't universal.

OK. So the proposed statline I'd ballpark at 400 pts.

Gorechild: I definitely love your tweak. It fits the fluff of what the Avatar should be absolutely perfectly. But, I don't want to be paying the points to field that model. We need to tone him way down. Keep him in line with a Greater Daemon.

He's an **Avatar**. Just that. Not the god itself.

DarknessEternal wrote:It also isn't true. Whatever style of 40k games you are used to, it certainly isn't universal.

You said practical use. Of course there's use for him without Fortune, it's just not very practical.

Anyways, 350 point for The Avatar with Gorechild's profile sounds fair. I still find T7 too much. When I made my last post I misread it and thought you'd changed it for T6. Anything with a 2+ save is already survivable by itself, there are few things S6 that has AP2. I don't know, it's fluffy for the Avatar to be like a very strong, very tough, extremely resilient warrior. Not a towering behemoth.

What I propose:

BS WS S T I A W Ld Sv
5 10--- 6 6 6 5 4 10 2+

Unit Type - Monstrous creature
Wargear - Wailing Doom
Special Rules - Fleet, Daemon, Molten Body, Inspiring, Avatar of War

Wailing Doom - R12" S8 AP1 Assault1, Melta shooting attack. In melee Wailing Doom causes such grievous wounds that the Avatar may reroll any failed To Wound rolls in an assault phase.

Daemon - Avatar is a Daemonic incarnation of a dead god, receiving a 4+ invulnerable save and Eternal Warrior USR, in addition, any and all special abilities affecting Daemons affect the Avatar.

Molten Body - A beast of lava and flame, fire-based weapons have no effect on the Avatar, absorbed into his essence. Flamers, Heavy flamers and weapons with Melta profile have no effect on the Avatar.

Inspiring - Whilst the Avatar is on the board all friendly units have the stubborn USR. In addition, any friendly model within 12" of the Avatar is Fearless.

Avatar of War - An embodiment of Khaine, the Bloody-Handed god, the Avatar is a champion of martial combat on the battlefield, his attacks unerringly finding their mark. The Avatar may reroll any failed to-hit rolls in the assault phase. In addition, as a manifestation of a godly presence in the material universe, the psychic powers of the Farseers can never affect him directly.

I, like Gorechild, believe he must have some sort of effect on the Eldar army outside his Fearless bubble. There are several ways to do that. Like giving them Furious charge if they're 12" away from him, or improving their Ld so that every morale test is done with Ld 10, army-wide, etc...Stubborn seems like a good way to go to me.

One of the Avatar's problems atm is the fact that if you don't roll well, his 4 attacks are just not enough to reliably hurt the enemy. Rerolling to-wound and to-hit helps that greatly. He's still S6 here, though, so no one-shotting Warbosses or SM HQs. And because he can't be affected by Fortune, he really needs a 2+ save. And he really needs fleet. I own him, I use him, and I really can't count the times I was 1 or 2 inches short of assaulting something. In an army that is arguably supposed to be the fastest in 40k, their incarnation of a God of War should certainly not be left behind by the common citizens.

Gorechild wrote:Avatar of Khaine - .....points

BS WS S T I A W Ld Sv
-5-10--6-6-6-5-4-10-2+

Unit Type- Monsterous Creature
Wargear- Wailing Doom
Special Rules- Fleet, Deamon, Incarnation of a God, Inspiring,The Bloody Handed God, Molten Body.

Wailing Doom- R12" S8 AP1 Assault 1, Melta. The Wailing Doom always Strikes at Initiative 6 in combat, regardless of any penalties inflicted by terrain or enemy rules/wargear, In addition the Wailing Doom allows you to re-roll all failed misses to hit and wound in combat.

Incarnation of a God- The Avatar of Khaine is the physical manifestation of the God of war, hence he has a 4++ save and the Eternal Warriror USR. As a godly presence in the material universe an Avatar is immune to the Fortune and Guide psychic powers.

Molten Body - A beast of lava and flame, fire-based weapons have no effect on the Avatar, absorbed into his essence. Flamers, Heavy flamers and weapons with Melta profile have no effect on the Avatar.

Inspiring- Whilst the Avatar is on the board all friendly units have the stuborn USR. In addition, any friendly model within 12" of the Avatar is fearless.

The Bloody Handed God- Any enemy unit that attempts to assault the Avatar must first pass a leadership test, if failed the assaulting unit may not assault anyone this turn. All Ld tests taken within 12" of the Avatar must do so with a -2 modifier to their leadership.

Another re-write, using my last version and bits from Araenion's.....opinions?

Edits for clarity