Other than all aspect warriors being increased to A2. Sure it is a non-issue for the shooting aspects but the +1 attack is vital to making all the CC aspects playable or at least have an argument for playing them.

I would agree that SS should not have the assault capability. Perhaps +1 cover saves as well as +1D6 for movement through cover.

As far as wraithguard it is tough. 12" range means they are a one shot and done unit. T6 sounds good but for 35 pts I would like something better than that afterall we are talking terminator range for cost. FNP, 2 wounds, lower the T to 5 and increase to 3 wounds. All of these sound like options that should be considered otherwise they are way too inefficient compared to fire dragons and too soft in CC.

Updated my suggestion for the scorps

Wraithguard are a bit more interesting, I'll go back through the threads in a bit and see if I can find all the previous suggestions. IIRC we had issues with giving them FNP because they became almost unkillable without firing a load of dedicated anti-tank weapons at them for several turns. T6, 3+ 4+FNP takes a LOT to hurt.

Maybe just increase Howling Banshee's and Striking Scorpion's (and Shining Spears?) to base 2 attacks? I don't like the sound of giving that to Dark Reapers or DA's

I completely agree with raising the base attacks for Howling Banshees and SS, but why not do that for Harlequins too then?
After all, they are the MOST glass-cannon like of the three melee units, they lack the power weapon attacks of the Howling Banshees (although they do have access to Rending) and they only have S4 on the first round of combat (although, granted, they DO have Hit and Run to eliminate this issue).
But taken into account, Harlequins are also the most expensive melee unit, a whole 2 points more expensive than the others and they take 4 more points to make rending. Along with this, unit upgrades are even more expensive to the Harlequins and the most essential one for their survival, Shadowseer, costs a grand 30 pts. In exchange for this, they get WS 6, BS 5 and I 6, but they don't have more attacks than the Striking Scorpions who do after all have Marine saves - although the Troupe Master does have 5 attacks when assaulting, but the SS have an equivalent of this and he can re-roll misses and fails to wound.
If you intend to give Howling Banshees as many attacks as Harlequins, our monster clowns should at least be less expensive.

On the issue of the Wraithguard, it's quite an issue with their weapons. I very much agree that their survivability needs to be increased, but their weapons also seem very... inefficient for a unit you can't really transport. 12" range means they have to be in assault range of the targetted unit and probably being close to one unit means that there are others nearby too, making it very risky to actually hit anything with your Wraithguards that cost 35 pts. each. But at the same time: The weapon DOES hurt a lot (I mean 2+ to wound and ID on a 6, ignoring armour saves is in no way half bad). So increasing their range would perhaps make them far very deadly.

on wraithguard, increasing/decreasing toughness and giving them FNP does nothing for them. They currently only die (really) to close combat attacks which ignore armor. Giving them FNP doesn't do anything for this, it is just a different form of the same thing.

The question, regarding wraithguard toughness, should be what the goal is. Is the idea of changes to their defensive aspects to remove their dependence on a farseer fortune-unit upgrade? If so, then add FNP. Very nearly as good as fortune, they just get a 4+ reroll instead of a 3+.

If the idea is to make them tougher against the type of attacks which murdered them in droves previously, give them 2 wounds.

What I think should happen, regarding toughness - do not decrease cost. Give them 2w, and FNP. Then, make them Elites, 3-10, and remove the current "as troops" clause. In order to take them as troops, you need to select the Iyanden SC (probably Iyanna), who costs 300+ points, and the unit must number 10 wraithguard at the start of the game. She is a spiritseer - NOT a farseer. Thus, to give this now very-tough unit fortune, you need to spend upwards of 400 points in the HQ section of a list which spends 350 minimum on their special troops. You can do it, but it probably isn't worth it. Combine this with a change to conceal which grants 5+ cover and special stealth which doesn't work on the 5+ cover, and you have a unit which basically walks around with a 3+ cover save, 3+ armor save, and FNP. Quite tough, but difficult to fortune, in practice.

Offensively - far and away the best suggestion I have seen for the wraithcannon is R18" Rapidfire, combined with Relentless for the wraithguard. 1 shot out to 24", 2 shots within 18", when combined with moving. A whole lot of death at close range.

@ Wooly
Maybe give kisses to harlequins as standard? It would make them a good middle ground between scorps and banshees. And make them much more appealing for their point cost?

Giving Wraithguard T6, 3+ save and FNP would mean a Tactical Marine (half range) would have a 0.037 chance of killing one, In other words, it would take 29 marines (that are in half range) to reliably kill 1 (!!) Wraithguard. Obviously thats not using the right tool for the job, but still, it does make then stupidly survivable.

@Gwyidion
Apart from Wraithguard needing to be units of 10 for Iyanna to make the troops, I think your ideas make a lot of sense. You don't want to make Iyanden armies suck because they can only take 3-4 units in a normal game, I'd say units of 5 + spiritseer should become troops.

I don't know if Wraithguard are a good unit to have with a max size of 10. They seem a bit too large, bulky, and costly for that max size. 5+seer is a better sum, like Gorechild suggests.
Gorechild, by the way, regarding FNP: that's the value of 10 Wraithguards to kill 1 Wraithguard per turn, using the weapons least suitable for the job. By comparing a Marine killing another Marine at half range you need the value of about 5 Marines (10 shots at 11% chance) using a weapon that's partially suitable for the job, while a Guardian killing his own kin using a weapon meant for the job you need 3 Guardians for every 2 you want to kill reliably.
10 to 1 isn't all that bad when you put it in perspective of what tool you use. An auto-cannon is (as is always the case with imperials shooting at Eldar) a much better choice at not too great relative cost.
P.S. you need around 72 IG shots, which is 360 points at long range, almost twice as cost-effective as Marines. Irony!

---

I was in the progress of writing something with inspiration from Commisar Rant's post in General Discussion... Let's see if the sum of my ideas are still with me.

Over all army range: Another approach is to simply keep the Eldar army being difficult to use by increasing their strength rather than range of their basic weapons. This way Guardians would have the same, consistent, fire power of a bladestorming Dire Avenger, but with the drawback of being in guaranteed counter-assault range should the target live.
The same can be said to be true for all Eldar (infantry) weapons, decrease range and increase fire power. Swooping Hawks have a Haywire Blaster with the same profile as the current Lasblaster -12" range +haywire?
(A note on Dire Avengers: they would perform the role of more competent Guardians that have both 'pult and pistol+sword. Guardians would be lead by Black Guardians, i.e. standard sarge)

Warlocks and Farseers: Essentially, heavily alter these ones. Remove Warlocks as Guardian leaders, and make them a 3-for-1 Elite choice.
Warlocks takes care of the whole Dooming/Guiding/Fortuning while Farseers develop some powers on their own. Stronger and more reliable Mind War, a counter-psycher power, and maybe a summoning-type power.
After all, most of the current Warlock powers aren't integral for the army and attach to units that aren't all that great.

Naturally unit costs are not holy and would need to be revamped.

The whole decreasing range thing breaks down when you get to 12".

12" is the standard assault range, and the mantra goes, shoot the choppy things, assault the shooty things. A shooty unit such as DAs, Guardians, Hawks, etc, is quite useless if they must enter into assault range to fire (unless they are SO shooty that the assault unit they target is completely eviscerated by the shooting).

Overall army design scheme is great, but when applied on a unit to unit bases, Guardians with 12" range weapons is still poor unit design. It just doesn't make sense from any angle.

Wraithguard:

Right now, the best way to run wraithguard is with fortune support. Basically, you buy them the 100 point Farseer+warding+fortune upgrade, and they now have a 3+ rerollable armor save.

My proposed change (FNP and 2 wounds) does two things: it removes their dependence on a farseer, which is good, and it lessens their giant achilles heel against things like genestealers and TH/SS terminators. this change only makes sense if you simultaneously make it very difficult to get fortune on a wraithguard unit. This change, combined with rules which make it a poor idea to buy a farseer with the wraithguard actually make the wraithguard's cumulative save go down (3+ rerollable to a 3+/4+FNP), while making them tougher. Also adding smaller units means their total wounds doesn't increase twofold.

So how about this:

Wraithguard - 165 points

Unit Size - 4 Wraithguard + Spiritseer

Stats - WS/BS:4 S/T:6 1A, 3I, 2W, Ld10 sv3+

Wargear -
Wraithcannon: SX AP2 R18" Rapidfire
Wounding rules as now

Special Rules -
Wraithguard- Wraith, Extreme strength
Spiritseer - see Warlock entry

Options -
Up to 4 additional Wraithguard may be purchased for 35 points each.
The Spiritseer may take any of the options specified in the Warlock entry except the Eldar Jetbike.

Wraith - Wraiths are not living beings but wraithbone constructs animated by the souls of long deceased warriors. As a result they are not affected by poisoned weapons and have the Fearless, Relentless, and Feel No Pain Universal Special Rules.
Extreme strength- The wraithguard are far taller than even the tallest of the living eldar, because of their giant stature they are able to strike with such force that the enemys armour often proves to be no defence. Any model that suffers a wound in close combat from a wraithguard must re-roll any successful armour saves.

Iyanna Arienal - 375 points
Iyanna:
WS/BS:5 S/T:3 2A I5 W3 Ld10 sv -

Wargear:
Spear of Vaul - a singing spear which ignores armor saves
Armor of Vaul - Instead of saving wounds in the normal way, Iyanna must take a leadership test every time she suffers a wound. If the leadership test is passed, the wound is saved. This save counts as invulnerable save. The Leadership test may not be modified in any way, but may be rerolled if it is forced or enabled to do so.
Runes of Warding

Special Rules:
Independent Character
Fleet of Foot
Psyker
Spiritseer of Iyanden : An army which includes Iyanna may take Wraithguard units as troop selections. In addition, while Iyanna is alive, no Wraith unit needs to test for wraithsight.

Psyker Powers:
Iyanna has all of the warlock psyker powers, and employs them all simultaneously. Note that she may still only make one shooting attack in the shooting phase.

Iyanna's Wraithlord Husband (I need to re-read the Iyanden fluff)
Normal Wraithlord, doesn't take a FoC slot, basically a "free" HS choice. Maybe +1 WS/BS.

Basically, in the above schema, the player needs to invest 375 points to get Wraithguard as troops to start with. If the player wants to take a farseer on top of that (in what will be a point-strapped list), they are free to do so.

There is no possible way that is worth 375 points... unless it also included a Wraithguard bodyguard in its cost. In order for it be effective as you posted, a significant portion of your army has to be used in very few units of Wraithguard/Wraithlords, leading to an even lower model count than in today's Wraith armies. It just isn't viable.

As for Warlocks, I'd like to see them become more combat focused. In their Codex entry it talks about them returning to their Aspect shrine to prepare for war, so maybe they should be able to take different powers based on which Aspect they came from, that way, using Mahtamori's idea about making them a 3-for-1 Elite choice, you can specifically tailor them to the role you need them to fulfill.

Well, you get Iyanna, who has all the warlock powers, +1 BS/WS over warlocks, +1A, +1I, +2W, and an invulnerable save that is obscenely good (looking at it now, she needs to be Ld9, or 8, especially since her embolden allows her to reroll her own leadership test). She also has the singing-spear-power-weapon, available today only on yriel and eldrad. Also comes with runes of warding.

So:
Warlock: 25 pts
powers: 45
+1BS/WS: 20
+1A, +1I: 20
+2W :30
Vaul :30
Spear :20
Runes :15 (at least)

190ish points of wargear and abilities. Lets not forget her spiritseer power and the FoC changes. Those are at least 30 each.

so 250 or so.

Then, you get a FOC-free wraithlord who should probably have special weapons and boosted abilities, like +1 BS/WS/W, and able to carry a D-cannon if wraithlords can't already (forgeworld wraithseer anyone?). Even if he is a totally normal wraithlord, that is still an FoC free wraithlord for 125 points, which isn't too much over what they probably will cost in the next codex.

It isn't that outrageously costed, just read the post. Even if you give her special abilities for free, the wraithlord she comes with should have special gear and stats, and makes up for the cost.

And we can point out a whole army here, since they are pretty easy units to construct:

Iyanden 2000pts

Iyanna/Wraithlord husband - 375
Avatar of Khain - 155

Troops:
7x Wraithguard + spiritseer - 270
7x Wraithguard + spiritseer - 270
7x Wraithguard + spiritseer - 270
6x Wraithguard + spiritseer - 235


Heavy Support:
1x Wraithlord EML/EML - 140 (today's prices with no TL)
1x Wraithlord EML/EML - 140 (today's prices with no TL)
1x Wraithlord EML/EML - 140 (today's prices with no TL)

Not even a well-balanced or thought out competitive list, but I'd take it against anyone, as a Iyanden player. Each wraithguard squad has more firepower and wounds than today's squad at far lower prices.

Oh, I didn't realize she came with a free Wraithlord, my bad.

If the Wraithlord was a retinue that would be awesome. Maybe make it an optional upgrade (a la dias of destruction)?

What Gwyidion just wrote gets my vote. The only thing I'd like to change is the spear (which is by the way called the spear of teuthlas), I dunno if that should be as powerful as the spear of twilight. In the last codex it could instead be thrown 18", how does that sound?

Iyanna sounds like a very interesting application, but I'm with Gorechild in that the Wraithlord should be a choice (i.e. a retinue).
This is first of all to allow her to actually enter lower level games (although at 250 pts. she is still more expensive than Eldrad).
Still I would like her to be a little cheaper to be an HQ that is actually cheaper than she should technically be, just like Eldrad.
But I do believe that giving her a Power Weapon fits about right. If you intend to let her walk alongside a Wraithlord, it makes absolutely no sense to make attacks non-power weapon, especially not in an Eldar army, which is all about specialisation. You want your squads to have ONE purpose, i.e. Tank busting for the Fire Dragons, CC'ing armoured enemies for the Howling Banshees, long ranged combat for the Dark Reapers, etc. etc.

@Gorechild I do believe that making Harlequin's Kisses standard equipment would help a lot but I don't think Harlequins will ever be the middle ground between SS and HB, nor should they be. In terms damage output, they would indeed be a middle ground, but having as many attacks as the Striking Scorpions and being even more vulnerable than Banshees makes them their own entirely, which is, after all, the charm of the Eldar.

Gorechild wrote:If the Wraithlord was a retinue that would be awesome. Maybe make it an optional upgrade (a la dias of destruction)?

Because of the unit rules, making the Wraithlord and Iyanna form a single unit essentially upgrades Iyanna to T8, and gives her cover from ID until the wraithlord dies. It also allows the wraithlord to very easily obtain cover, as if Iyanna is in cover, 50% of the unit is in cover. She's already tough enough with a pseudo-Invulnerable save that depends on her re-rollable leadership. Making the wraithlord an option is fine, but making the wraithlord a retinue isn't a good idea.

I don't think anything should be optional on a special character. I'm sure there's a precedent somewhere to prove me wrong, but I can't think of a single case where a special, unique, character has major options.

I'm fine with making it a required upgrade (or really, just part of the HQ choice). Wraithwall lists are all about expensive choices. I am heavily opposed to making the wraithlord a retinue, for the stated reasons.

Mahtamori wrote:I don't think anything should be optional on a special character. I'm sure there's a precedent somewhere to prove me wrong, but I can't think of a single case where a special, unique, character has major options.

Well, some special characters can choose a retinue, Eldrad for example, can take a retinue just like any other farseer - or choose not to.
I do believe that the model itself should have no upgrades available, but I don't think you should have to include their retinue, I think that should be a choice.

Technically Eldrad doesn't have a retinue since the Warlocks are an independent unit (and therefore do not offer the protection of a retinue, as well as offer up a kill point). Technically he's not a Farseer, either, but most people aren't quite so literal about the rules.

Mahtamori wrote:Technically Eldrad doesn't have a retinue since the Warlocks are an independent unit (and therefore do not offer the protection of a retinue, as well as offer up a kill point). Technically he's not a Farseer, either, but most people aren't quite so literal about the rules.

In Eldrad's rules it says 'Eldrad counts as a farseer for the purposes of including a warlock unit' iirc.

How on earth would you argue that Eldrad's technically not a farseer?
He's obviously a psyker lost on the path of the seer, i.e. Farseer.

Can't remember his name, you know someone who camped you make da call a lot and got banned a few times, essentially argued that unless a model was called "Farseer" then he couldn't use abilities which were "Farseer" abilities (like Mind War). Same goes for other armies and their special characters, etc.

It is immaterial to this discussion any way. Making Iyanna able to form a unit with a wraithlord is a bad idea. It gives easy cover to the wraithlord, and gives effective T8 to Iyanna.

I don't think it should be optional. People who play wraithwall are probably taking 3 wraithlords in HS anyway, and they can just take one less if they are squeezed for points.

Would anyone be opposed to giving her a Wraithguard retinue?

Wooly wrote:@Gorechild I do believe that making Harlequin's Kisses standard equipment would help a lot but I don't think Harlequins will ever be the middle ground between SS and HB, nor should they be. In terms damage output, they would indeed be a middle ground, but having as many attacks as the Striking Scorpions and being even more vulnerable than Banshees makes them their own entirely, which is, after all, the charm of the Eldar.

The bit in bold is what I meant The complete lack of any exarch-style powers and the fact the unit is so customizable (Shadowseer, Death jester ect) keeps them individual enough, but rending just serves as a middle ground between power weapons and having loads of normal attacks.

Mahtamori wrote:I don't think anything should be optional on a special character. I'm sure there's a precedent somewhere to prove me wrong, but I can't think of a single case where a special, unique, character has major options.

Asdrubael Vect has a 200 point option (dias of destruction)on top of being 240 points just for himself. As well as that, the dias MUST be filled with 9 other models as well. This effectively means he (for 1 unit) can cost between 240 and 638 points (if taken with 9 Incubi).

Gwyidion wrote:

Gorechild wrote:If the Wraithlord was a retinue that would be awesome. Maybe make it an optional upgrade (a la dias of destruction)?

Because of the unit rules, making the Wraithlord and Iyanna form a single unit essentially upgrades Iyanna to T8, and gives her cover from ID until the wraithlord dies. It also allows the wraithlord to very easily obtain cover, as if Iyanna is in cover, 50% of the unit is in cover. She's already tough enough with a pseudo-Invulnerable save that depends on her re-rollable leadership. Making the wraithlord an option is fine, but making the wraithlord a retinue isn't a good idea.

Fair enough, I didn't really plan out how it might play, it just struck me as a cool idea. Maybe if you included an additional line that was something like; "If Iyanna is accompanied by *insert name of Wraithlord here*, all cover saves and movement are determined as if both models have the "Monstrous Creature" unit type for as long as the Wraithlord is on the board."? That way she'd have to be 50% obscured as well, and tbh, for a ~200 point upgrade I don't think its that OP, Especially for a HQ that I can't see as being that regularly taken outside of fluffy games. Leaving her as an IC would just leave her to run with a unit of 10 T6 wriathguard with the option to hop between units if the previous 1 is getting hammered, and then have a random 4th wraithlord on the board.

MandalorynOranj wrote:Would anyone be opposed to giving her a Wraithguard retinue?

I don't think it would be that bad, it just wouldn't make as much sense (fluff wise) as her being accompanied by the wraithlord that (apparently) she always hangs with. See end of last paragraph

Do they have to be in the same unit configuration? "Being accompanied" doesn't necessarily mean "being dogged by".

My thoughts about new rules. I'm sure some of this has already been covered in the 25 or so pages that I haven't read through yet, but I wanted to ad my two cents.

To me the phoenix lords have been a great fluff to the Eldar, I would hate to see them go away or become just another exarch upgrade. I feel like they are something you should be able to design your force around. They are way too expensive these days though. I mean the Avatar is 50 points less then most of them.

I would say you could easily chop 50 points off of each of them, and an added ability would be that any squad of their aspect they are with becomes scoring. So you purchase your phoenix lord and as long as he is part of a squad, they can hold objectives. If the PL leaves the squad they are no longer scoring, if he joins another squad, they become scoring. I think this could then lend to people building armies around various aspects. They could also bestow one of their abilities to the squad they are teamed with. Maugan Ra could give fast shot or crack shot. Fuegan gives tank hunter...etc.

The aspect warriors:

Fire Dragons: A little powerful for the cost, but they seem to be pretty good as is. They are specialized to take on tanks, and hard armor. They fill that role for the eldar very well.

Howling Banshees: From my perspective Banshees are supposed to be anti MEQ, and giving them the ability to assault out of a wave serpent I think would help them fulfill that role. If they don't get that first attack off they will likely be taken out before they can perform their role.

Striking Scorpions: Scorpions to me shouldn't be mounted in a wave serpent, they should be assaulting from a hidden position. They are geared towards taking on the IEQ squads, and I think can fill that role well.

Dark Reapers: A bit expensive for what you are getting, I like the role they fill as being Marine killers from range, I don't think they need to be adjusted that much, or given an anti tank role, they have their specialization and that's good enough. The are too expensive for what they do though, I would like to see them dropped to 25-30 points.

Swooping Hawks: They are just so incredibly average right now. I've always imagined they would be the close combat jump infantry for the Eldar, they could keep their average lasblasters for a take and hold with Baharroth, but then have some kind of power weapon knives. Thinking hawk talons. They drop from the sky, engage a squad of devastators behind enemy lines then jump away before the opposing army can react. That's what I imagine. I've seen a lot of people aiming them towards the AT role, however that seems to be the niche the Shadow Specters from FW are supposed to fill.

Warp Spiders: A PL for the warp spiders please! I love the threads I have seen with a warp spider PL and I would love it! Giving some kind of role 3d6 and pick the two you want for your warp jump. I like the assault 4 weapons, seems to fit the way they work. They aren't supposed to be CC just jump in and lay waste to a lightly armored squad then jump away before they can be tied up. I wouldn't mind an AP of 6 to show some armor penetration.

Shining Spears: I think the Spears do pretty well, they fill the role as they are supposed to and they aren't all that expensive in my mind. They deserve an sweet PL as well. I would imagine one springing up from the Samm Hainn craftworld if anything.

Dire Avengers: Great troops, I'm a little disappointed in the neutering of the range on the shuriken catapults both for the DAs and Guardians. I'd like to see the guardian version have an 18" range and the DA's have a 24" range.

Sorry for the great long post, and if I'm addressing things that have already been taken care of, I've only gotten through the first ten and the last three pages of this massive thread so far.

Well, I think one of the greatest focal points of this post has been to keep the new Eldar fluffy.
Warp Spiders and Shining Spears currently don't have Phoenix Lords because they are rare, newer Warrior Aspects. The Phoenix Lords are the original Exarchs of each of the first aspects, i.e. Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees, Swooping Hawks, Striking Scorpions, Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers.
That being said, I wouldn't mind some kind of Warp Spider HQ showing up.
And the idea that Striking Scorpions should be able to assault from vehicles was scratched in the last page. ^^
But over-all your ideas seem decent, although many people have already come to the conclusion that 24" for an Avenger Catapult is a little OP compared to the bolter - although, lorewise, of course, Eldar weaponry should be OP compared to human tech... silly Mon'Keighs

My fluff is a bit fuzzy, but Karandras isn't the original Exarch, the original Exarch is with the Dark Elves, no?

However, let's face it, regardless of what boost or nerf the units get, it is their costs and relative implementation that count. Having Dire Avengers run around with Storm Bolters isn't as much an issue as whether it fits with the rest of the codex - is it true to the identity of the Eldar, and the troop concerned.
Personally, Dire Avengers are a bit too much up-close-and-personal for Storm Bolters in my opinion, and would be happier if their weapons and abilities better represented a duality between the two roles.

As for Swooping Hawks, it's a recurring theme in this thread. Suffice to say their current implementation is wrong, and that's just about all we've come to a conclusion regarding so far. I'm personally partial to a melee-esque or duality Hawks more focused on destroying light infantry / Orks than Marines / Necrons or tanks.

I'd personally love to see an aspect - or outcast for that matter - who are focused on short range infiltration skirmish. Think Rangers with Avenger Catapults.

I would really like some feedback concerning Wayseer's and the Webway. In the book "the path of the warrior", it depicts eldar aspect warriors using the webway to enter the battlefield.

Wayseer. Upgrade a farseer to a wayseer for +30 points.

Wayseers have the "webway" psychic power, and allow aspect warriors to use the webway to enter the battlefield. During the Eldar players first turn, the eldar player signifies a 6' Radius area to be the webway entrance to the battlefield. The webway follows the same rules as infiltrating, and must be 18' away from units with line of sight, and 12' away of enemy units without line of sight. During the Eldar first turn, all aspect warriors declared using the webway portal must enter battlefield, and must be deployed within 2' of the Webway Portal. If the eldar army has an autarch , eldar models may move, shoot, and assult as normal. If the eldar army does not have an autarch, the eldar units may not move or assult the turn they webway'd in.


Im not sure exactly how a webway and wayseer should be used. Mabe an entire eldar army should be allowed to deep strike in turn one. Mabe only 1 unit should be allowed. Mabe it should allow for all eldar aspect warriors to have a teleport like option. Discuss.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:My fluff is a bit fuzzy, but Karandras isn't the original Exarch, the original Exarch is with the Dark Elves, no?

However, let's face it, regardless of what boost or nerf the units get, it is their costs and relative implementation that count. Having Dire Avengers run around with Storm Bolters isn't as much an issue as whether it fits with the rest of the codex - is it true to the identity of the Eldar, and the troop concerned.
Personally, Dire Avengers are a bit too much up-close-and-personal for Storm Bolters in my opinion, and would be happier if their weapons and abilities better represented a duality between the two roles.

As for Swooping Hawks, it's a recurring theme in this thread. Suffice to say their current implementation is wrong, and that's just about all we've come to a conclusion regarding so far. I'm personally partial to a melee-esque or duality Hawks more focused on destroying light infantry / Orks than Marines / Necrons or tanks.

I'd personally love to see an aspect - or outcast for that matter - who are focused on short range infiltration skirmish. Think Rangers with Avenger Catapults.

swooping hawks in the fluff dont really land, there constantly up in the air shooting there grenades at stuff. I dont think they are an assult unit at all.

The webway is a little difficult to implement.

As you have it there, it is overpowered. Since all aspect warriors using the webway come in without rolling, you can place the webway 18" from the enemy, deploy say, a maxed out banshee squad 2" from the webway - on a direct line towards the enemy. The 6" radius means that they are deployed 10" from the enemy. With an autarch, that is a guaranteed 1st turn charge. Even if you don't look at that, fire dragons can be deployed at the same range, and, with an autarch, move and be within 4" of any enemy target - which will soon be very dead.

It is the perfect alpha strike.

Eldar units are too fragile and too powerful to use with the webway in that manner. Either the webway allows them to launch a strike upon arrival to the board - which is overpowered, because eldar units hit like a truck. Or, the webway doesn't allow first-strike capability, in which case the eldar aspect warrior unit has to stand around for a turn - which they are too fragile to do.

I'm on the side of shooty-hawks. They don't strike me as a close combat unit, unless they are totally redesigned and their fluff changed to put more emphasis on the "Hawk" part of their name, rather than the "Swooping".

If we wanted to make them assault infantry, that would be fine. Just keep in mind they are fleet jump infantry, and so have a natural charge range of 24"

Eldar will likely get the same Webway as Dark Eldar, both use them extensively, even though Dark Eldar are possibly slightly better at it (considering the location of their city and all). Reversely, Craftworld Eldar are significantly better at warp travel.

The difficulty with Hawks is mostly their interaction, considering niche, with Spiders. You just can't have two anti-GEQ shooters in the same FO slot.
The current Hawks would work pretty damned well, if you removed yo-yo and simply dumped their prices to a more reasonable level (probably in the 14 point range) to more accurately describe how they perform.
(They are Jump Dire Avengers with -1 strength and no Blade Storm. How much is Jump Infatry worth anyway?)

What would Spiders be, then? They perform the same role at considerably more risk, but with stronger shots. If Hawks are Jump Dire Avengers, then Spiders are Jump Dire Avenger Ninjas. Sort of. I mean, they'd be slightly upgraded Swooping Hawks in the same FO slot, and that there is bad design, meaning the role of the Spider in that case would need to change.
What if hits from Spiders automatically forced the hit model to take a dangerous terrain test (max 1 per model) while placing the entire unit in dangerous terrain the next time the unit moved. This would make it bloody dangerous for both MEQ, GEQ, and TEQ, but the killing volume would depend more on the targeted unit's willingness to move and would probably be smaller than the direct fire of the Hawk.

Sorry for the tendency for rambling here, it's closing hour at work so I guess the incoherency well represents my mind at present.

I don't believe CWE are that much better at Warp Travel as the Eldar as a whole mostly avoid it.
I mean, sure, the Craftworlds hover around in the Materium (I'm not exactly sure why, but it's probably because of A) Pride B) There isn't room enough in many webway paths C) There are Maiden Worlds and the like that can better be accessed from the Materium or D) They are simply too old fashioned, or a mix), but it's specifically stated that strike forces go by webway transport, just like the Dark Eldar.
I mean Warp Spiders are described as being brave because they risk their souls on the field of combat... I wonder what an Eldar thinks of a Rogue Trader.
Anywho, I'm on the side of Shooty-Swoopies and on changing Warp Spider role a bit, because they could be a real bitch to many armies and I sure as hell wouldn't mind paying a little extra for that. I mean just add an AP and they go from GEQ killers to... well... killers-depending-on-the-given-AP.
Or indeed give them the Monofilament rule from the Night Spinner, you'll basically make your opponent stationary.

As I wrote, I blame my incoherent rambling on my state of mind at the time. I was actually thinking of D-cannons and wraith cannons.
Eldar spacecraft can, according to the codex, apparently travel through the Warp (without the astronomicon), although it is a slow and dangerous process.
I believe the true reason the Warp Spiders are such brave individuals is because they travel the warp largely unprotected.

I just spent a few minutes finding the rules for the webway portals, and they do seem to fit nicely for the Craftworld Eldar as well.
Considering that craftworld Eldar seldom, if ever, attack further than a "few light years" from a webway gate, there is more than a little fluff supporting that CWE should have access to portable webways as well.
As far as Wayseers go, though, Eldar seem to approach the webway in a pragmatic and cautious manner, preferring the path previously travelled rather than divining new ones. A wayseer do not quite seem to fit for some reason.

Well... I'd rather see the Solitaire or some other Harlequin HQ re-enter the game.
As is noted, Cegorac, the Laughing God, Inspiration/Master of all Harlequins is basically the only one who knows all of the webway - guess who comes second in knowing the webway? I do indeed believe that to be the Harlequins.
So why not let a Harlequin HQ have an ability that lets you use the webway - if nothing more than just for the Harlequins.

Mahtamori wrote:I just spent a few minutes finding the rules for the webway portals, and they do seem to fit nicely for the Craftworld Eldar as well.
Considering that craftworld Eldar seldom, if ever, attack further than a "few light years" from a webway gate, there is more than a little fluff supporting that CWE should have access to portable webways as well.
As far as Wayseers go, though, Eldar seem to approach the webway in a pragmatic and cautious manner, preferring the path previously travelled rather than divining new ones. A wayseer do not quite seem to fit for some reason.

Just to prevent them being the same as DE, they could be done similarly to the webway portals in DOW. Make them immobile structures that can be destroyed and are place before the start of the game. Maybe AV12 all round, if glanced or penetrated they are removed? Maybe needing to be activated by moving a psyker within maybe 6"? Just to make them tactically different from the Dark Eldar.

Wooly wrote:Well... I'd rather see the Solitaire or some other Harlequin HQ re-enter the game.
As is noted, Cegorac, the Laughing God, Inspiration/Master of all Harlequins is basically the only one who knows all of the webway - guess who comes second in knowing the webway? I do indeed believe that to be the Harlequins.
So why not let a Harlequin HQ have an ability that lets you use the webway - if nothing more than just for the Harlequins.

That would be awesome, I hadn't thought of Solitare. If they made Quin's troops as well I'd HAVE to make a complete clown army

Gorechild wrote:
That would be awesome, I hadn't thought of Solitare. If they made Quin's troops as well I'd HAVE to make a complete clown army

Why not just let the Solitaire make Harlequins a troops choice like so many other special characters/HQs let your something-something become a troops choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - something else that has struck me is how badly the Death Jester fits into the Harlequin squad.
Sure he lets the squad do something if the unit as a whole is prevented from moving, but that hardly makes up for the LOSS of an attack in close combat. I mean it's not like it's Marines, Orks or any other army where units may be multi-purpose. Eldar units should have but one function that they focus on entirely.

Been thinking on the role of the swooping hawks a bit more, and I have come a 180 from the idea of making them close combat, I agree that just doesn't fit the fluff. They are always up in the air, so maybe instead, leaving them with what they have now, they could have a special rule as pertains to assault.

Swooping hawks not in close combat cannot be assaulted. Shot at fine, but not assaulted. They can choose to assault, and once they are entangled on the ground they can be charged or counter charged etc... but if they've moved, you would have to say they are still aloft and can't be brought to CC. That would make them a bit more useful as is. able to just hover above assault troops and drop grenades on them.

seapheonix wrote:Been thinking on the role of the swooping hawks a bit more, and I have come a 180 from the idea of making them close combat, I agree that just doesn't fit the fluff. They are always up in the air, so maybe instead, leaving them with what they have now, they could have a special rule as pertains to assault.

Swooping hawks not in close combat cannot be assaulted. Shot at fine, but not assaulted. They can choose to assault, and once they are entangled on the ground they can be charged or counter charged etc... but if they've moved, you would have to say they are still aloft and can't be brought to CC. That would make them a bit more useful as is. able to just hover above assault troops and drop grenades on them.

Thats an interesting idea......it would make them extremely different. Maybe something like:

"If a unit with Hawk wings moved in their previous movement phase, they may not be assaulted by enemy models until the start of the next eldar turn, as they glide above the battlefield. They may choose to assault enemy models however, but if they remain locked in combat, other enemy units may assault them during their turn. All cover saves from swooping hawks shoooting are decreased by 1 (4+ becomes 5+ for example) because of thier elevated vantage point, unfortunately this also makes the swooping hawks an easy target. As a result any cover save taken by the swooping hawks is also decreased by 1"

Its overly wordy, but I think it gets the point across. If they then had Haywire grenades (exactly like DE) and a S3 R18" AP4/5 assault3 gun? Any attempts at re-writing the hawks wings bit so its more "to the point" would be appreciated

Gorechild wrote:

seapheonix wrote:Been thinking on the role of the swooping hawks a bit more, and I have come a 180 from the idea of making them close combat, I agree that just doesn't fit the fluff. They are always up in the air, so maybe instead, leaving them with what they have now, they could have a special rule as pertains to assault.

Swooping hawks not in close combat cannot be assaulted. Shot at fine, but not assaulted. They can choose to assault, and once they are entangled on the ground they can be charged or counter charged etc... but if they've moved, you would have to say they are still aloft and can't be brought to CC. That would make them a bit more useful as is. able to just hover above assault troops and drop grenades on them.

Thats an interesting idea......it would make them extremely different. Maybe something like:

"If a unit with Hawk wings moved in their previous movement phase, they may not be assaulted by enemy models until the start of the next eldar turn, as they glide above the battlefield. They may choose to assault enemy models however, but if they remain locked in combat, other enemy units may assault them during their turn. All cover saves from swooping hawks shoooting are decreased by 1 (4+ becomes 5+ for example) because of thier elevated vantage point, unfortunately this also makes the swooping hawks an easy target. As a result any cover save taken by the swooping hawks is also decreased by 1"

Its overly wordy, but I think it gets the point across. If they then had Haywire grenades (exactly like DE) and a S3 R18" AP4/5 assault3 gun? Any attempts at re-writing the hawks wings bit so its more "to the point" would be appreciated

Quali-teee!

Frankly, I think you are onto something now. That sounds great for hawks.

So do I, thanks for the suggestion seapheonix
I'll try and write up a full entry for them thats along those lines a bit later.

Waht do you reckon would be best, AP4 or 5? I'm leaning towards 4, purely to keep their cost down.

Gorechild wrote:So do I, thanks for the suggestion seapheonix
I'll try and write up a full entry for them thats along those lines a bit later.

Waht do you reckon would be best, AP4 or 5? I'm leaning towards 4, purely to keep their cost down.

How would a better AP keep the cost down?

Saintspirit wrote:

Gorechild wrote:So do I, thanks for the suggestion seapheonix
I'll try and write up a full entry for them thats along those lines a bit later.

Waht do you reckon would be best, AP4 or 5? I'm leaning towards 4, purely to keep their cost down.

How would a better AP keep the cost down?

Brain fart. I meant AP5


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swooping Hawks - xxx points
Unit size - 4 Swooping Hawks, 1 Exarch

Stats:
As now

Special Rules:
Aspect Warriors
Fleet

Unit Type:
Jump Infantry

Wargear:
Hawk Wings
Lasblaster ((is that its name? I hardly ever use them!) R18" S3 AP5 Assault 3)
Haywire Grenades (1=nothing 2-5=glance 6=pen)

Options:
Up to 5 Additional Swooping Hawks may join the unit for XX points each
The Exarch may take Hawks Talons (power weapon) for XX points
The Exarch may upgrade his Lasblaster to *can't think of name* (R18 S4 AP4 Assault 4) for XX points.

Exarch powers:
Sky leap - Unit gains the Hit and Run USR
*Cant think of a decent name* - Unit never required any more than 4+ to hit a vehice when using grenades.

Aspect Warrior- A unit with the "Aspect Warrior" Special rule can regroup as long as it is above 25% of its starting strength (rather than the usual 50%), all other conditions that prevent a unit from regrouping still apply.

Hawk Wings- If a model with Hawk wings moved during the movement phase, they may not be assaulted by enemy models until the start of the next eldar turn (as long as they don't move again next turn!). If a model with Hawk Wings chooses to assault and remains locked in combat at the end of their assault phase, other enemy units may assault them during their turn. If they moved in the preceding movememt phase, all enemy cover saves from a model with hawk wings are decreased by 1 (4+ becomes 5+ for example). This commanding vantage point makes the swooping hawks an easy target, as a result any cover save taken by the swooping hawks is also decreased by 1"

I would say make Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks different points class. Having two similar priced choices in the FoC-slot is just bad design.
Why? It will always end up in the question of which unit is ultimately the best. Rather make Swooping Hawks cheaper, I'd say, so we won't end up on the question of Warp Spiders > Swooping Hawks?
Also, I like the idea of them never touching the ground, but if they lose 1 point of cover save, you need to really make them a shooty/deadly unit and IMO, S3 in an Eldar army is... not really that useful, not even if you get a lot of shots. If we are up against a Horde, we bombard them with templates, and the occassional storm of DA volleys. At least make their weapons S4 so that they won't end up wounding on a 5+ against a LOT of enemies.

Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees are the same point cost and both elite's, is that bad design? My point is, as long as the role of the two units is different, there shouldn't be any overlap between them even if they cost the same number of points.

Spiders (if thay have the monofilament rule as discussed) would make a great harrasment unit for bogging down the enemy, the hawks would (IMO) provide an alternative to fire dragons for anti-tank whilst maintaining some decent anti GEQ shooting ability, They'd be particularly good at surrounding transports. It would free up the Elite squad from dragon spam and make room for the CC units to see the light of day.

Hawks would be the bane of armies like nids and orks, as you could keep moving around infront of your shooty units and prevent them from being able to assault. Spiders would be particularly good against IG blobs or ork hordes because of the vast number of dangerous terrain tests they'd have to take. I think they'd compliment eachother really well, not compete with eachother, ymmv though.

Good point, good point.
Still, I think SH should have S4

I just think if they have S4 they will become a jack of all trades. If they have the ability to cut down waves of orks/nids/IG with them and take on AV14 and help screen the rest of your army from assaults, they automatically don't fit into the whole aspect warrior idea of having one very focused role.

...Point.

Despite the potential slowdown, I like converting their lasrifle into a grenade launcher with two modes of firing:

Assault 1 18" Small Blast S3 AP6
Assault 1 18" Haywire Grenade.

Yes I understand it will slow down the game but the blast template preserves the power of the large blast drop down
and the haywire grenade preserves their AT capability. Both without exposing them to CC.

Change the abilities to:

Wings of baharoth: All SH get a 5++ invulnerable save due to their unorthodox and hard to follow movement.

Skyleap: In lieu of normal movement any SH can be deep striked to anywhere on the board with a 1D6 scatter.

This gets rid of the yo-yo hawk stupidity and the small blast templates remove the need for the large blast template when entering the board.

But isn't a "barrage" (I know it's not necessarily going to follow that rule) of 9-10 small blasts a bit OP?

With 2 base attacks on aspect warriors (i.e. upgrading them to veterans, essentially), Banshee vs Scorpion matchup against light infantry looks like this. I'll add in poison scorps (where Mandiblasters confer 4+ poison instead)

Imperial Guard:
B: 3x0,333 chance of slaying. 0,296 chance of failing.
S: 4x0,296 chance of slaying. 0,245 chance of failing.
PS: 3x0,395 chance of slaying. 0,222 chance of failing.

Orks:
B: 3x0,222 chance of slaying. 0,471 chance of failing.
S: 4x0,278 chance of slaying. 0,272 chance of failing.
PS: 3x0,417 chance of slaying. 0,199 chance of failing.

Marines:
B: 3x0,167 chance of slaying. 0,579 chance of failing.
S: 4x0,083 chance of slaying. 0,709 chance of failing.
PS: 3x0,125 chance of slaying. 0,670 chance of failing.

What's interesting to note here is that a Banshee has an oddly high chance of failing to kill an equally costly Marine on the assault. The Banshee vs Marine stat can be used for current assaulting Banshee vs defending Marine, the Banshee is meant to kill Marines specifically. While the Marine is a multi-purpose unit, possibly more geared for ranged combat.
The poison Scorp is more of a hold-its-own unit, better suited for infiltrating, but not so good for synergising with Farseers.

So, essentially, my idea for the day: Mandiblasters add poison, instead!

Although, a Marine only has 1x0,133 of killing the Banshee, I suppose...

I'm unsure how you've done your calculations on the Scorps counter the Poison Scorps.
Because if we say that a Poisoned Mandiblaster makes your Scorpions Poisoned (4+), then they would theoretically be a worse than the current scorpions at attacking ANYTHING with T4 or below, unless you intend to also give them the usual +1 attack in addition to giving them poisoned.
But even in that case, regular scorps would be better against Guardsmen (S4 vs. T3 = 3+ to Wound, Poisoned (+4) vs. Anything = 4+ to Wound). The only time where Poisoned Scorps would really make a difference would be if they get into combat with opponents with a toughness of 5 or higher... and I don't see that happening too much. Scorpions are meant as anti-Horde where Banshees are meant as anti-MEQ. I just don't see Horde armies spamming units with T5. If you do happen to stumble upon a unit or two of T5 creatures (for example the DE Sslyth and Grotesques - though I doubt we'll see many of the latter), the Eldar codex already has plenty of ways to deal with those guys.
Bottom line: I don't think Scorpions need poison at all, unless it's 3+ and that would be slightly OP too.
Unless I've misunderstood something... if so, do notify me.

They get a re-roll to wound against T4 or below.

Why, is there a rule I don't know? *Scratches cheek* If so... sorry for ignorance.

Wooly wrote:But isn't a "barrage" (I know it's not necessarily going to follow that rule) of 9-10 small blasts a bit OP?

Admittedly, the small blast template goes up in power the more blob like the opponent is so say it touches 3 on average.
10 barrage templates with 3 touched on average is 30 hits, 10 wounds versus orks 15 against guard but the AP 6 means the flak jacket is in play so again 10 kills. Certainly it is better than a 24" Assault 2 S3 AP6 las blaster by about 33% but it is by no means OP.

The big thing to me is getting rid of the need to deep strike to use the S4 large blast template and all the silliness that that implies. Also by allowing them to use it as a haywire grenade launcher it gets rid of the need to assault with them. (i.e. suicide the unit to kill a vehicle.)

Striking Scorpions are a sneaky tough anti-horde unit.
I'd change them by giving them the stealth, move through cover, scout, and infiltrate USRs. Drop the point cost down to 12.
Alternatively, to keep their point cost the same, bump them up to strength 5 or give them rending (or s5 and a possible rending option via the exarch.) It's rare for a unit to have a wide disparity between strength and toughness, and goes well with the Eldar theme of fragile unit that really hits hard in the right role.

You'd have to change banshees as well, but they need changing anyway.

While rending makes sense on a unit that uses highly sophisticated chainswords, it does put Banshees out of work. Scorpions are as it is very effective against MEQ/TEQ when compared to Banshees and considering Scorpions aren't meant to be anywhere close to beating Banshees in that department.

Banshees need some way of gaining Furious Assault.

Perhaps instead of increasing the strength of the swooping hawks weapons, ad pinning? Doesn't affect the space marine style units with high leadership, but would reflect the; "Whoa! Where did that shot come from" of being attacked from the air. I think that would help slate them towards a bogging down large units job, while a CC group moves in to attack.

Spiders are more of a go kill large groups by themselves team, so that wouldn't be crossing over their purposes.

Anyway: Scorpions were already covered in the previous page and I do believe the result was quite alright.

@ Wooly: Yes and no. Scorpions were covered two pages ago summarily, and only really discussed in the scope of a mech list. Gorechild posted a summary of a few aspects which had Scorps get Infiltrate base and Banshees get Furious Charge. The problem is that the most commonly agreed upon codex-wide alteration is that aspect warriors are elite soldiers or veterans, and all elite soldiers and veterans in 5th edition codexes have 2 base attacks - this includes the direct equivalents in Codex: Dark Eldar.

seapheonix wrote:Perhaps instead of increasing the strength of the swooping hawks weapons, ad pinning? Doesn't affect the space marine style units with high leadership, but would reflect the; "Whoa! Where did that shot come from" of being attacked from the air. I think that would help slate them towards a bogging down large units job, while a CC group moves in to attack.

Spiders are more of a go kill large groups by themselves team, so that wouldn't be crossing over their purposes.

The problem with the rule of pinning is that it's ineffective by it's own right. It is hardly ever useful and doesn't stack up. Most units have some way of getting better than a fair chance of succeeding a morale roll, and this includes the low-morale armies, and when you are struck en-masse with these attacks they don't really make the morale check more difficult or more numerous, only more certain that you'll have to roll your two dice - unless you happen to be immune to morale, pinning, fear, prone, etc.
Ironically, it almost seem like Marines are more vulnerable to pinning that the hordes of trash.

I'd personally say that Swooping Hawks are best to simply copy-paste Dark Eldar Haywire Blaster. Instant decent anti-tank role. 0,444 chance of glancing and 0,111 chance of penetrating per aspect warrior and round of shooting. BOTH Exarch powers would have to be remade, though.

I'd personally say that Swooping Hawks are best to simply copy-paste Dark Eldar Haywire Blaster. Instant decent anti-tank role. 0,444 chance of glancing and 0,111 chance of penetrating per aspect warrior and round of shooting. BOTH Exarch powers would have to be remade, though.

Sounds to me like the way to go. That gives a tank hunter in FA, leaving some place for other choices in Elite apart from Fire Dragons. Won't compete with Spiders as they are anti-infantry.
For the Exarch powers I would say
Turbo Booster (has already been suggested)
The usual intercept power or tank hunters.

Saintspirit wrote:

I'd personally say that Swooping Hawks are best to simply copy-paste Dark Eldar Haywire Blaster. Instant decent anti-tank role. 0,444 chance of glancing and 0,111 chance of penetrating per aspect warrior and round of shooting. BOTH Exarch powers would have to be remade, though.

Sounds to me like the way to go. That gives a tank hunter in FA, leaving some place for other choices in Elite apart from Fire Dragons. Won't compete with Spiders as they are anti-infantry.

This makes a lot of sense, with Spiders performing an anti-infantry role and Hawks covering anti-tank (just not to the same degree as FD's), Would it then make sense for Shining Spears to do anti-TEQ/MC? A few high strength power weapon attacks and maybe a short range AP2 shot? I can't remember if we've been through this before or if it was just something I had been thinking over

Gorechild wrote:

Saintspirit wrote:

I'd personally say that Swooping Hawks are best to simply copy-paste Dark Eldar Haywire Blaster. Instant decent anti-tank role. 0,444 chance of glancing and 0,111 chance of penetrating per aspect warrior and round of shooting. BOTH Exarch powers would have to be remade, though.

Sounds to me like the way to go. That gives a tank hunter in FA, leaving some place for other choices in Elite apart from Fire Dragons. Won't compete with Spiders as they are anti-infantry.

This makes a lot of sense, with Spiders performing an anti-infantry role and Hawks covering anti-tank (just not to the same degree as FD's), Would it then make sense for Shining Spears to do anti-TEQ/MC? A few high strength power weapon attacks and maybe a short range AP2 shot? I can't remember if we've been through this before or if it was just something I had been thinking over

Yes. That should be their role. I never understood why the shooting of the laser lance is Ap4.

We've been through it, but nothing solid's been done. Shining Spears is a difficult one, though, since they are so fragile and costly that they risk breaking either their own usefulness (current) or becoming too good.

I think a good middle ground would be, among others, an exarch power which allows during a consolidation move, the unit may opt for a Hit and Run move which do not require an initiative test.

That would then leave Vypers (are we going for the 2W T5 jetbike approach?) as a fast scouting heavy weapons platform. That would give each unit in the slot a distinctive role and cover two or three things that would remove the dependence on FD's. It wouldn't make Dragons needless, but if you can get them to the point when you only really need 1 unit to nuke the biggest badest tank on the board, then I think its a great success.

Simply having them (Vypers) as Jetbikes would be sufficient in my mind, since this would effectively give them a firepower increase at fully upgraded. Whether increased wounds and toughness over normal jetbikes matters less, I should say, as the effect would be cheaper Vypers if the lower toughness is kept.
With an increased toughness the current cost should be retained as this would make them more durable than the current incarnation, but with a more normal jetbike stat the cost ought to decrease some since this leaves them vulnerable to lasguns, and Tau melee, among other things.

This also leaves room for Hornets, should they make it, although Hornets challenge Falcons.

Havent seen any creative ideas in this thread, and all the creative ieas ive thrown out havent been mentioned by the original poster.

Smitty0305 wrote:Havent seen any creative ideas in this thread, and all the creative ieas ive thrown out havent been mentioned by the original poster.

Nice Idea, he should pay more attention to this trolling

Maybe some sort of system where by units gain bonuses for each unit they kill.

cheapbuster wrote:Maybe some sort of system where by units gain bonuses for each unit they kill.

Bright Points?

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

cheapbuster wrote:Maybe some sort of system where by units gain bonuses for each unit they kill.

Bright Points?

yeah, and a unit that gives them out to friendly units when it causes wounds...

No, Power from Pain does not suit Craftworld Eldar at all. If you really wish to troll, please do it on some other forum.

Mahtamori wrote:I do not know how to take a joke and must take every message very seriously!

well, i know that...

cheapbuster wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:I do not know how to take a joke and must take every message very seriously!

well, i know that...

QFT

<stay on topic; stay on topic!>

Mahtamori wrote:While rending makes sense on a unit that uses highly sophisticated chainswords, it does put Banshees out of work. Scorpions are as it is very effective against MEQ/TEQ when compared to Banshees and considering Scorpions aren't meant to be anywhere close to beating Banshees in that department.

Banshees need some way of gaining Furious Assault.

Banshees: Always strike first so the +1 I is a throw away - +1 S is an option but I cringe at that combined with Doom.
Perhaps preferred enemy as an exarch ability.
TODAY:30 PW attacks 15 hit, 5 wound 5 kill due to PW
TODAY w Doom: 30 PW/ 15 hit 8 wound 8 kill due to PW
Furious Assault: 30 PW attacks 15 hit 7.5 wound 7.5 kill
FA with Doom: 30 PW attacks 15 hit 11.25 wound 11.25 kill
Preferred enemy: 30 PW attacks 22.5 hit 7.5 kill
Preferred enemyw Doom 30 PW attacks 22.5 hit 12.5kill
WS5 w PE: 30 PW attacks 27 hit 9 kill
WS5 w PE & Doom: 30 PW attacks 27 hit 15 kill.

Pick your poison and cost accordingly. PE is persistent as of course is WS5. Furious assault is going to be the one round wonder and done.

Janthkin wrote:<stay on topic; stay on topic!>

Congrats on your modhood Janthkin

Anyway, back on topic.....

Mahtamori wrote:Banshees need some way of gaining Furious Assault.

In the version I posted I was just giving it to them as a basic special rule for the unit, not tired to an exarch power or anything. I also gave Scorps a rule (can't remember if it was stealth or infiltrate) so they would stay at a similar point level.

Their Exarch powers could then allow them to assault from a moving transport and have an initiative (rather than Ld) based version of Warshout.

Are we still thinking of giving both aspects base 2 attacks (4 on the charge for banshees, 5 for scorps?). I don't know why, but I feel like that's too many for HB's, especially with furious charge. 36 S4 power weapon attacks and 4 S6 is enough to hurt hoardes just as well as scorpions should, and more than enough to wipe a 10 man SM squad off the board.

Well, the closest equivalent to be found are Incubi. Coming in at another 6 points they have one more WS, I, and S as well as one point better save.
We already know that the current version of the Banshee cost too much, although if they have some means of gaining close combat from transport not so much (I still think that pure foot should be viable - but this is a poison of 6th edition where transports are universally too cheap, and where assault from deap strike too common).

Banshees with their current armament would exchange the Incubi's +1S with a pistol (+1A and neglible ranged attack). How much is that change worth? What about the rest of the profile?
I'd personally land Banshees at around 18-20 points, a bit depending on what happens with psychic powers.
Now, the question remains what role the Scorpions serve if Banshees are model-effective at destroying hordes as well? Of course, a Scorpion could be altered to provide a defensive/stealth role. The alteration wouldn't be a whole lot, infiltrate base and then an exarch power Defend and you've got a whole completely different cup of tea where the Banshees is assault and the Scorpion is defense (rather than MEQ vs GEQ)

I actually agree a lot with Mahtamori.
Also, since the whole point of this codex suggestion is to keep things fluffy, Karandras did train the scorpions to be patient killers. As far as I remembered, one of the new suggested exarch powers (since infiltrate became a base ability of theirs) was to give them a "Pathfinder cover save", e.g. +2 to any cover save (so 5+ becomes 3+, and so on).
I would suggest also giving them some sort of ambush ability that really allows them to lie in waiting. I don't know if this is in any way feascible, but it strikes me as fluffy and cool.
But since we are talking about HB and SS, where would we like to put the Harlequins, and for what cost? I mean, we've discussed them as being middle ground soldiers (between GEQ and MEQ) but if we merely make HB offense oriented and SS defence oriented, what do we want to do with the Monster Clowns?
I would actually like to refer back to a previous suggestion of mine, regarding an Eldar webway portal possibility. Why not make the Harlequins an extremely aggressive unit that might just as well be made of paper? Since they are the Eldar that know the Webway the best, let them have some way of Deep Striking and spreading carnage... with their puny 5++ save which of course means that they would die rather quickly.

The only problem I have with 'Quins having something like a WWP is that it would basically make the shadowseer and deathjester pointless. If they appeared right up in your opponents face the VoT would be useless. I'd prefer them to be the foot-slogging alternative to HB's. If a kiss was included in their base cost (as discussed before) they could dance their way up the board (maybe a unit of 5-15?) and then rend stuff to death. As you wouldnt have to factor in the cost of a waveserpent, they would be a really good offensive CC unit in lower point games.

And perhaps you could even give them some neat, expensive upgrades that would make them great in higher points games too?
I just don't like the idea that one unit is only good at a set amount of points, sure they might be BETTER at low points, I just also want them to be usable at higher points.

What Eldar need is an OT transport for HB so they don't just bail out of a WS and die...

I think it was agreed pretty early that OT were NOT the way to go for Eldar. Doesn't fit them at all.
Instead we plan to give HB an exarch power so they can assault after disembarking.

The issue with just introducing an open topped transport is that does a lot more than just help HB's. It means Dragons can move and shoot without disembarking, or disembark and shoot and assault. It makes the foot-council really scary, without the massive cost of the jet-council. It means you can do a drive by bladestorm without having to disembark. And that's just naming the first things of the top of my head.

Gorechild wrote:The issue with just introducing an open topped transport is that does a lot more than just help HB's. It means Dragons can move and shoot without disembarking, or disembark and shoot and assault. It makes the foot-council really scary, without the massive cost of the jet-council. It means you can do a drive by bladestorm without having to disembark. And that's just naming the first things of the top of my head.

Well HB's are not that great in the current rules. You either should go big or go home if you include them in your list, one squad of 10 really won't cut it when your opponent will just gun them down if they disembark, then again you can keep them in move 6" run then assault

Yes, that's why the Assault Drill exatch power for HB came up here - so that they can assault out of their transport. That would avoid the balance issues Gorechild just posted.

Saintspirit wrote:Yes, that's why the Assault Drill exatch power for HB came up here - so that they can assault out of their transport. That would avoid the balance issues Gorechild just posted.

But there is a heavy balance factor for the OT vehicle, you could say it would be expensive, and then be AV 10 all round so you are paying a price to do the factors mentioned, the fact that the vehicle would be easy to destroy would be quite a big negative factor as it could be destroyed first turn of the game, this would balance it a bit more.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Gorechild wrote:The issue with just introducing an open topped transport is that does a lot more than just help HB's. It means Dragons can move and shoot without disembarking, or disembark and shoot and assault. It makes the foot-council really scary, without the massive cost of the jet-council. It means you can do a drive by bladestorm without having to disembark. And that's just naming the first things of the top of my head.

Well HB's are not that great in the current rules. You either should go big or go home if you include them in your list, one squad of 10 really won't cut it when your opponent will just gun them down if they disembark, then again you can keep them in move 6" run then assault

That's why we were suggesting other changes (a better version of warshout, Furious charge as standard, the assault drill power) to make them a better unit in their own right. Adding open topped would have a significant knock-on effect with other units would mess with the ballance of the entire codex.

Gorechild wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Gorechild wrote:The issue with just introducing an open topped transport is that does a lot more than just help HB's. It means Dragons can move and shoot without disembarking, or disembark and shoot and assault. It makes the foot-council really scary, without the massive cost of the jet-council. It means you can do a drive by bladestorm without having to disembark. And that's just naming the first things of the top of my head.

Well HB's are not that great in the current rules. You either should go big or go home if you include them in your list, one squad of 10 really won't cut it when your opponent will just gun them down if they disembark, then again you can keep them in move 6" run then assault

That's why we were suggesting other changes (a better version of warshout, Furious charge as standard, the assault drill power) to make them a better unit in their own right. Adding open topped would have a significant knock-on effect with other units would mess with the ballance of the entire codex.

I just think that Furious charge would be unfair though, the point of having scorps is that they are S4 with no power weapon, if you gave the banshees furious charge then they would be much better than scorpions and you would take them every time. I10 S4 power weapons on the first round, that's going to mess up any unit!

I don't think the OT vehicle would be such a bad idea, it would mean that yes, you can fire out of it, but when DA's and FD's have a 4+ save it isn't so bad because when you pop the vehicle it won't be too hard to kill the guys, you could also make it the Eldar Equivilent to a Venom to stop you having 10 guys in there spamming with Bladestorm or Fusion Guns

It's not very fluffy either. The eldar vehicles are designed to protect the passengers while they advance, but open-topped don't offer much of that. The Dark Eldar are more ruthless and don't care much about their lives, so they have those raiders.

I just think that Furious charge would be unfair though, the point of having scorps is that they are S4 with no power weapon, if you gave the banshees furious charge then they would be much better than scorpions and you would take them every time. I10 S4 power weapons on the first round, that's going to mess up any unit!

This I agree with. If they are given furious charge, scorps definitely needs something big to even it up. We spoke of earlier to give both HB and SS two attacks, maybe that only scorps gain an additional attack if HB have furious charge?

I liked Mahtamori's idea of making HB's an attacking unit and making SS's a defensive unit, rather than the current MEQ/GEQ divide. I don't know how it could be done though, I'll have a think and see if I can come up with anything.

If we were going for a simple fix I'd say give SS's 2 attacks and keep HB's with 1 (Scorps would have 5 on the charge; 2 base, 1 for pistol + CCW, 1 for charge, 1 for mandiblaster. Banshees would have 3; 1 base, 1 for pistol + CCW, 1 for charge), because banshee's would still make a mess of hordes if they had 4 strength 4 attacks each on the charge.

Gorechild wrote:I liked Mahtamori's idea of making HB's an attacking unit and making SS's a defensive unit, rather than the current MEQ/GEQ divide. I don't know how it could be done though, I'll have a think and see if I can come up with anything.

If we were going for a simple fix I'd say give SS's 2 attacks and keep HB's with 1 (Scorps would have 5 on the charge; 2 base, 1 for pistol + CCW, 1 for charge, 1 for mandiblaster. Banshees would have 3; 1 base, 1 for pistol + CCW, 1 for charge), because banshee's would still make a mess of hordes if they had 4 strength 4 attacks each on the charge.

Banshees would make a mess of anything

You would defo have to increase base points cost if they had 4 attacks on the charge S4 with a 4+ save, with power weapon attacks. 16 points for that is a bargain.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Gorechild wrote:I liked Mahtamori's idea of making HB's an attacking unit and making SS's a defensive unit, rather than the current MEQ/GEQ divide. I don't know how it could be done though, I'll have a think and see if I can come up with anything.

If we were going for a simple fix I'd say give SS's 2 attacks and keep HB's with 1 (Scorps would have 5 on the charge; 2 base, 1 for pistol + CCW, 1 for charge, 1 for mandiblaster. Banshees would have 3; 1 base, 1 for pistol + CCW, 1 for charge), because banshee's would still make a mess of hordes if they had 4 strength 4 attacks each on the charge.

Banshees would make a mess of anything

You would defo have to increase base points cost if they had 4 attacks on the charge S4 with a 4+ save, with power weapon attacks. 16 points for that is a bargain.

Maybe, The closest comparison would be DE Incubi, they are 22 points. But they have 3+ armour and are S4 all the time, not just the turn they charge. I think that the Banshee's are over costed for what they can do at the moment, I'd probably put them down at about 18 ppm if we put those changes in. Maybe 100 points for 5 (including exarch), then the option to add up to 5 more for 18 points each. that would probably put a full unit of 10 + exarch powers around the 220 point mark (exactly the same as 10 incubi).

Not really, it would make 10 Banshees with exarch cost 190, although of course you may add exarch powers (but so can Incubi).
Also, with what you propose, Banshees would only have 3 strength 4 attacks on the charge, not 4 (if we assume that Banshees will still only have one attack on their statline). Just to make things clear.

The problem with HB is they only work one round and they really only shine when the opponent is doomed.

So right now HB - in groups of 10 - generate 20 S3 attacks, will hit an average of 10 times and kill about 3.3 of the enemy. 5 kills on the charge.

A couple of suggestions have been raised before.

1. Increase all aspects A +1. That takes us to 5 kills and 6.67 on the charge.

2. Increase the WS to 5. This is probably the nastiest as with 1 base A this goes 4+ kills, 6.67 on the charge and with +1 A, 6.67 kills 9 kills on the charge.

Other options have been talked about like furious charge or preferred enemy but I like the cleanness of +1 A and perhaps +1 WS.

Now to the abilities, you have War Shout and Acrobatics.
I think Acrobatics screams to be changed into our assault out of a vehicle ability. War Shout is awesome for the 1 in 12 combats an opponent actually fails their leadership but I would like a more toned down version but something that will affect the enemy more often. Perhaps Ld test on 3d6 and the effect is -1 WS and -1 S on the target unit.

Gorechild wrote:Maybe, The closest comparison would be DE Incubi, they are 22 points. But they have 3+ armour and are S4 all the time, not just the turn they charge. I think that the Banshee's are over costed for what they can do at the moment, I'd probably put them down at about 18 ppm if we put those changes in. Maybe 100 points for 5 (including exarch), then the option to add up to 5 more for 18 points each. that would probably put a full unit of 10 + exarch powers around the 220 point mark (exactly the same as 10 incubi).

I guess 220 sounds fair, but then again it wouldn't be just those points im mentioning, Banshees have I10 on the first round aswell so they will go before anything no matter what (unless it's GK quicksilver) and then you can give them counter attack, so if they get assaulted then you still get your 4 attacks. They would be pretty mean for 16 points each = 160 + Exarch = 170 + Warshout = (dunno points) But around the 220 mark for 10 seems fair.

Well blood letters are 16 points for WS5 S4 T4 A2 I4 and furious charge, but there save is only a 5+ inv, so i dont think HB's need to be 18 points

cheapbuster wrote:Well blood letters are 17 points for WS5 S4 T4 A2 I4 and furious charge, but there save is only a 5+ inv, so i dont think HB's need to be 18 points

Yeah but they have I10 first round of assault, reguardless of any modifiers, so even if you charge into cover or are affected by special grenades you are still I10 first round. Plus they are I5 standard and have fleet of foot when letters don't. Then theres all the powers that you can give them with the exarch (Counter attack or make an enemy pass a ld test or he is WS 1. And they aren't that expensive. So if you put that with furious charge that makes it seem like 18 points per model is a fair choice, if you add the extra attack and the such.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

cheapbuster wrote:Well blood letters are 17 points for WS5 S4 T4 A2 I4 and furious charge, but there save is only a 5+ inv, so i dont think HB's need to be 18 points

Yeah but they have I10 first round of assault, reguardless of any modifiers, so even if you charge into cover or are affected by special grenades you are still I10 first round. Plus they are I5 standard and have fleet of foot when letters don't. Then theres all the powers that you can give them with the exarch (Counter attack or make an enemy pass a ld test or he is WS 1. And they aren't that expensive. So if you put that with furious charge that makes it seem like 18 points per model is a fair choice, if you add the extra attack and the such.

Isnt this ideas for the next codex not the rules for the current? and how does the fact that you can have some upgrades change the points ?

cheapbuster wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

cheapbuster wrote:Well blood letters are 17 points for WS5 S4 T4 A2 I4 and furious charge, but there save is only a 5+ inv, so i dont think HB's need to be 18 points

Yeah but they have I10 first round of assault, reguardless of any modifiers, so even if you charge into cover or are affected by special grenades you are still I10 first round. Plus they are I5 standard and have fleet of foot when letters don't. Then theres all the powers that you can give them with the exarch (Counter attack or make an enemy pass a ld test or he is WS 1. And they aren't that expensive. So if you put that with furious charge that makes it seem like 18 points per model is a fair choice, if you add the extra attack and the such.

Isnt this ideas for the next codex not the rules for the current? and how does the fact that you can have some upgrades change the points ?

This is ideas for the new codex. Currently HB's are 16 points, so if you gave them furious charge and the extra basic attack then surely that is at least a 2 point bonus per model?

They're not bonus points. maybe give them granades and make their mask like the blood angels death masks but with a different effect


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Instead of the assault drill maybe some vehicles can have a kind of WWP build on or maybe as an upgrade of 20 points or so, they would work like a land raider assault ramp allowing units to assault after disembarking

I'm going to stick my 2 cents in this convo.

HBs are supposed to be quick and deadly, like samurai. Base A2 (A4 on the charge is fine). No rending is necessary as they already have power weapons and the goals is not to see them light-saboring through a vehicle. Keep their S and T at 3 and their save where it is *but make it invulnerable to represent their agility. I agree with allowing them to assault/fleet from vehicles.

SS as CC specialists should also be A2 base. Let them pull a marbo or a lictor deployment to represent their sneakyness. Give them stealth while you are at it. Rending is good for their uber blender-blades. I do not see what else is necessary above and beyond what they already have.

Deuce11 wrote:I'm going to stick my 2 cents in this convo.

HBs are supposed to be quick and deadly, like samurai. Base A2 (A4 on the charge is fine). No rending is necessary as they already have power weapons and the goals is not to see them light-saboring through a vehicle. Keep their S and T at 3 and their save where it is *but make it invulnerable to represent their agility. I agree with allowing them to assault/fleet from vehicles.

SS as CC specialists should also be A2 base. Let them pull a marbo or a lictor deployment to represent their sneakyness. Give them stealth while you are at it. Rending is good for their uber blender-blades. I do not see what else is necessary above and beyond what they already have.

The problem is all those rules will make them expensive...

Not if we give it the SW treatment

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:I'm going to stick my 2 cents in this convo.

HBs are supposed to be quick and deadly, like samurai. Base A2 (A4 on the charge is fine). No rending is necessary as they already have power weapons and the goals is not to see them light-saboring through a vehicle. Keep their S and T at 3 and their save where it is *but make it invulnerable to represent their agility. I agree with allowing them to assault/fleet from vehicles.

SS as CC specialists should also be A2 base. Let them pull a marbo or a lictor deployment to represent their sneakyness. Give them stealth while you are at it. Rending is good for their uber blender-blades. I do not see what else is necessary above and beyond what they already have.

The problem is all those rules will make them expensive...

And with that volume of attacks (considering they get furious charge), HB's will be extremely good against almost anything, leaving no real need for you to use Scorpions.

I like the lictor-like deployment idea, but they will suffer hugely from not being able to assault when they do arrive. It would be much harder to hide a full 10-15 man unit in a possition where they will be useful next turn

Gorechild wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:I'm going to stick my 2 cents in this convo.

HBs are supposed to be quick and deadly, like samurai. Base A2 (A4 on the charge is fine). No rending is necessary as they already have power weapons and the goals is not to see them light-saboring through a vehicle. Keep their S and T at 3 and their save where it is *but make it invulnerable to represent their agility. I agree with allowing them to assault/fleet from vehicles.

SS as CC specialists should also be A2 base. Let them pull a marbo or a lictor deployment to represent their sneakyness. Give them stealth while you are at it. Rending is good for their uber blender-blades. I do not see what else is necessary above and beyond what they already have.

The problem is all those rules will make them expensive...

And with that volume of attacks (considering they get furious charge), HB's will be extremely good against almost anything, leaving no real need for you to use Scorpions.

I like the lictor-like deployment idea, but they will suffer hugely from not being able to assault when they do arrive. It would be much harder to hide a full 10-15 man unit in a possition where they will be useful next turn

Oh sorry, let me clarify. I do NOT think HB should have furious charge. Therefore all their attacks would be at S3.

4 attacks on the charge (S3) averages out 0.67 kills per banshee and an Exarch (with executioner) would get 1.78. That means a unit (considering you roll statistically) shoud kill 7.81 toughness 4 models. Against T5 (Plague Marines and the like) is 0.33 per Banshee and 1 from the Exarch, so the unit kills 4 models.

With Furious Charge (but 3 attacks) a banshee would average 0.75 kills (when charging) but 0.5 on subsequent rounds of combat. The Exarch would get 1.67 on the charge and 0.89 in following rounds. For the unit that means 8.42 kills on the charge and 5.39 in following turns.
Against T5 a Banshee would kill 0.5 on the charge, 0.25 in the next turn. The Exarch would average 1.33 on the charge, 0.75 in the next turn. 3 for the whole unit.

I hope my maths holds up I was doing it in a rush.

So with furious charge they would hit hard, but do poorly in drawn our combats. Where the base 2 attack's version is ess efficient on T1 of a combat, but doesnt fall on its ass after the 1st round. Personally I think the FC style is more fitting for HB's, but YMMV.

Furious Charge simply does not seem fitting for them. First, as previuosly stated, they don't benefit from the I bump. Second, why are they receiving a S bump?

I do not see why these masterfull swords(wo)men should be represented as initially hard hitting but floundering in subsequent turns. Can they not hold their own going toe-to-toe?

I stick by thoughts on the HBs.

Deuce11 wrote:Furious Charge simply does not seem fitting for them.

I think it does, HB's are supposed to be your swift unit that if they stay in after T1 of assault, they aren't as good, SS are your survivable ones, so Furious Charge fits HB's well, it keeps the balance there other than taking one over the other all the time.

Oh and BTW, at S3, you have a void to fill with SS and rending. the two units will play completely differently. Even if in the end they serves very similar purposes (which very well may happen) at least you have variety for the hobbyists.


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GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:Furious Charge simply does not seem fitting for them.

I think it does, HB's are supposed to be your swift unit that if they stay in after T1 of assault, they aren't as good, SS are your survivable ones, so Furious Charge fits HB's well, it keeps the balance there other than taking one over the other all the time.

Doesn't the loss of A1 in subsequent turns as well as the loss of the banshee mask special rule accomplish your fluff opinion? (b masks only work on the charge, right?)

Gorechild wrote:4 attacks on the charge (S3) averages out 0.67 kills per banshee and an Exarch (with executioner) would get 1.78. That means a unit (considering you roll statistically) shoud kill 7.81 toughness 4 models. Against T5 (Plague Marines and the like) is 0.33 per Banshee and 1 from the Exarch, so the unit kills 4 models.

With Furious Charge (but 3 attacks) a banshee would average 0.75 kills (when charging) but 0.5 on subsequent rounds of combat. The Exarch would get 1.67 on the charge and 0.89 in following rounds. For the unit that means 8.42 kills on the charge and 5.39 in following turns.
Against T5 a Banshee would kill 0.5 on the charge, 0.25 in the next turn. The Exarch would average 1.33 on the charge, 0.75 in the next turn. 3 for the whole unit.

Less wounds on the charge ?


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GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:Furious Charge simply does not seem fitting for them.

I think it does, HB's are supposed to be your swift unit that if they stay in after T1 of assault,

Swift seems fast and precise where as furious charge is better suited for ork. I dont think is suits HB's. 'Hit and run' could solve your locked in combat issue, but i dont think is suits bashees either.

Deuce11 wrote:Oh and BTW, at S3, you have a void to fill with SS and rending. the two units will play completely differently. Even if in the end they serves very similar purposes (which very well may happen) at least you have variety for the hobbyists.


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GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:Furious Charge simply does not seem fitting for them.

I think it does, HB's are supposed to be your swift unit that if they stay in after T1 of assault, they aren't as good, SS are your survivable ones, so Furious Charge fits HB's well, it keeps the balance there other than taking one over the other all the time.

Doesn't the loss of A1 in subsequent turns as well as the loss of the banshee mask special rule accomplish your fluff opinion? (b masks only work on the charge, right?)

B masks work on the first round of assault, not necessarily the charge.

cheapbuster wrote:
Instead of the assault drill maybe some vehicles can have a kind of WWP build on or maybe as an upgrade of 20 points or so, they would work like a land raider assault ramp allowing units to assault after disembarking

I stand by Gorechild that it would make for example the foot seer council wickedly scary and so I'd much rather see it be a unique banshee power.


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Gorechild wrote:4 attacks on the charge (S3) averages out 0.67 kills per banshee and an Exarch (with executioner) would get 1.78. That means a unit (considering you roll statistically) shoud kill 7.81 toughness 4 models. Against T5 (Plague Marines and the like) is 0.33 per Banshee and 1 from the Exarch, so the unit kills 4 models.

With Furious Charge (but 3 attacks) a banshee would average 0.75 kills (when charging) but 0.5 on subsequent rounds of combat. The Exarch would get 1.67 on the charge and 0.89 in following rounds. For the unit that means 8.42 kills on the charge and 5.39 in following turns.
Against T5 a Banshee would kill 0.5 on the charge, 0.25 in the next turn. The Exarch would average 1.33 on the charge, 0.75 in the next turn. 3 for the whole unit.

I hope my maths holds up I was doing it in a rush.

So with furious charge they would hit hard, but do poorly in drawn our combats. Where the base 2 attack's version is ess efficient on T1 of a combat, but doesnt fall on its ass after the 1st round. Personally I think the FC style is more fitting for HB's, but YMMV.

I believe you are slightly inaccurate. First of all (that's just a me-thing, everybody else seems to do it), I don't like using percentages to calculate dice rolls (while fractions are harder to look at, they are more accurate).

So, first of all, I might of course be completely off track, but I did some mathhammering on a full size Banshee unit with an Exarch against a T4 unit. The Exarch does not have War shout (or at least the enemy passed his leadership test). I have four sample units: Two that have the current statline, but have furious charge. One of these squads has an exarch with a executioner and the other exarch has mirror swords. The same goes for two sample units with A2 on their statline and assuming that the exarch would then get A3 on her statline.

Alright, so when assaulting, their results should look like the following (sorry for any confusing-looking fractions, but once again: I prefer them):

Assaulting HB with FC and Executioner:
3 Exarch Attacks, 2 hits.
2 exarch hits at S6 = 1 2/3 wounds.
27 Banshee attacks, 13 1/2 hits.
13 ½ Banshee hits at S4 = 6 3/4 wounds.
In total: 8 5/12 W

Assaulting HB with FC and Mirror Swords:
5 Exarch Attacks, 3 1/3 hits.
3 1/3 exarch hits at S4 = 1 2/3 wounds.
27 Banshee attacks, 13 ½ hits.
13 ½ Banshee hits at S4 = 6 ¾ wounds.
In total: 8 5/12 W

Assaulting HB with A2 and Executioner
4 Exarch Attacks, 2 2/3 hits.
2 2/3 Exarch hits at S5 = 1 7/9 wounds.
36 Banshee attacks, 18 hits.
18 Banshee hits at S3 = 6 wounds.
In total: 7 7/9 W

Assaulting HB with A2 and Mirror Swords
6 Exarch Attacks, 4 hits.
4 Exarch hits at S3 = 1 1/3 wound.
36 Banshee attacks, 18 hits.
18 Banshee hits at S3 = 6 wounds.
In total: 7 1/3 W

So clearly FC is a lot better on the assault than simply having one more attack and now let's see the subsequent rounds (assuming that no Banshees die of course), which is basically A2 vs. Banshees as they are now:

HB with Executioner
2 Exarch attacks, 1 1/3 hits.
1 1/3 exarch hits at S5 = 8/9 wounds.
18 Banshee attacks, 9 hits.
9 Banshee hits at S3 = 3 wounds.
In total: 3 8/9 W

HB with Mirror Swords
4 Exarch attacks, 2 2/3 hits.
2 2/3 exarch hits at S3 = 8/9 wounds.
18 Banshee attacks, 9 hits.
9 Banshee hits at S3 = 3 wounds.
In total: 3 8/9 W

HB with A2 and Executioner
3 Exarch attacks, 2 hits.
2 exarch hits at S5 = 1 1/3 wounds.
27 Banshee attacks, 13 ½ hits.
13 ½ Banshee hits at S3 = 4 ½ wounds.
In total: 5 5/6 W

HB with A2 and Mirror Swords
5 Exarch attacks, 3 1/3 hits.
3 1/3 exarch hits at S3 = 1 1/9 wounds.
27 Banshee attacks, 13 ½ hits.
13 ½ Banshee hits at S3 = 4 ½ wounds.
In total: 5 11/18 W.

But yeah: T2 becomes a nightmare to your opponent if HB get A2 and as to those who claim FC doesn't fit HB - Games Workshop clearly thought so, just look at Jain Zar? I actually also did these in a scenario where you had cast Doom on your opponent, but I'll save you those terrible... TERRIBLE fractions one was 5/72.
But it depends if you want very expensive Howling Banshees. FC merely gives them a nasty punch on the first round and its not really that big an upgrade considering that they would still be heavily Doom reliant if you want them to get out of T2 of combat alive. A2 on the other hand is quite a huge upgrade. So I would say the choice ends up being whether to take FC and just keep their price at 16 pts. (as already said, they're currently overpriced), or take A2 and maybe increase their points cost a bit.
Hope the fractions were not too disorderly

And I create an account, just so I can chip in on a thread that was largely settled forever ago. Oy!

Right then! Today, I want to focus on Aspect Warriors. When it comes to Aspect Warriors, you have the Big Six, then the new arrivals, like Shining Spears and Warp Spiders. I'm more interested in the Six, for now.

Firstly, I think a universal statline for Aspects is ideal... while, yes, they are specialized in their role, the most common comparison (Space Marines) shows that melee troops don't have to have a higher WS or heavy weapon teams a higher BS ... a universal statline, with some modifications due to gear, sounds like the best idea. Exarchs, in this state, would be akin to sergeants in other forces, with upgrades available that were thematic per Aspect... the models would be just like a normal Aspect Warrior, only with +1 Attack and access to unique gear.

The statline should match the previous set-- WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 5, A 1, LD 9, SV 4+ (Exarchs are the same, but +1A)

DIRE AVENGERS (Troops)
The absolute most important aspect to get right, Dire Avengers are the core troop choice in a way that Guardians can't be. (We'll cover Guardians later, but, in general, due to the fluff issues of "Guardian Mobs", Dire Avengers should take centerstage for Eldar, with Guardians taking support roles.) Due to being the 'balanced' aspect, a Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Pistol, and a CCW seem standard, topped off with grenades. Due to Aspect Training, you can give Dire Avengers Rending on their Shuriken Catapults, an option that Guardians shouldn't have. (This weapon, after all, is the focus of DA training and it makes sense that they can thus make it deadlier than anyone else can) ... squads are 5-10 members, with both a Wave Serpent and Falcon Dedicated Transport Options.

(Exarch options are for later, but a Power Weapon is obviously one here.)

HOWLING BANSHEES (Elite)
Clearly they get a Fleet special rule, since the acrobatic style of the Banshee warrior is a core part of their legend. Shuriken Pistol and Power Sword as the only weapons on a standard Banshee, with the Mask giving special first-strike rule (Initiative 10) ... This gives them 2 attacks, 3 on the charge, but with power weapons, claiming a firm role. Squads are 5-10 members, with a Wave Serpent dedicated transport option.

STRIKING SCORPIONS (Elite)
As the Banshee are the scalpel, the Scorpions are the fist ... these are the right 'ard, get stuck in Eldar forces who so love getting up close and personal that they have a "knife" in their mouth to stab you one extra time. A base attack of 2, unqiue in the aspects, comes from this due to the Striking Scorpion Helmet (Exarchs get 3, natch) and a Strength of 4 as well, due to their sword (And also carry a shuriken pistol, natch). Striking Scorpions get Stealth. Striking Scorpions get grenades. Exarchs get an option to give the squad Infiltrate X points. Squads of 5-10, with a Wave Serpent dedicated transport option (Note: Taking Infiltrate and a transport is covere din the base rules and a watse of your points. Take one or the other.)

FIRE DRAGONS (Heavy)
Firstly, I move the Fire dragons to heavy instead of elite. Yes, it's a crowded area, but they make more sense here than elsewhere. Fire Dragons clearly get grenades, as well as a Meltabomb upgrade option. I'd *love* to see them get a flamer option, but, for now, we leave it and the Fire Pike in the hands of the Exarch only. Fire Dragons are, clearly, Tank Hunters. Squads of 5-10 with a Wave Serpent dedicated transport option.

DARK REAPERS (Heavy)
Reapers get a unique rule that they ignore Flat Out and Turbo Boost armor saves (The old special tracking helmets) ... aside from this, the big thing is to consider what you want their Reaper Launcher sto do ... are they "Swiss Army Knives", given to multiple roles? Should they be dedicated anti-tank types? Anti-troop? Anti-Marine? Odds are that this group will get the most reworking (Or, second after Swooping Hawks), primarily due to their gun. In a rare move away from fluff, I wouldn't give them movement penalties due to their armor. Their primary role is "Death from Afar" and since all other aspects have a range of 24 or less, the big thing for the Dark Reapers should be distance. I'm thinking that they should get Shuriken CANNON as standard weapons, and have upgrade options for other weapons, personally. Let them take missile launchers or Reaper Launchers as model upgrades for X points. Breaking with tradition again, squads wil be 5-10, but no Dedicated Transport option.

SWOOPING HAWKS (Fast Attack)
Poor, much-maligned Swooping Hawks. A new 'dex will be your breakout day, I just know it! Swooping Hawks get Jet Packs, rather than jump packs, to give them better mobility. Add in Hit-n-Run, to represent their ability to fly away from harm, and Deep Strike, for, well, swooping. Lasblasters are the default weapon, plus haywire grenades, to give them a little variety. With Lasblasters being assault weapons and having Hit n Run, Swooping Hawks make for interesting forces to harry with, able to attack and break away, or drop back and shoot, making them a more tactical option than most aspects.

As for Wave Serpents and Falcons, the Wave should probably get a 'stunning field' option, where you get the option to assault from it, but, the force field has to be dropped, leaving it vulnerable. This gives the troop transport an optional assault role for close-combat Aspects without making it a core built-in to the Aspects, where a more powerful Falcon looks like a no-brainer option. Mind you, I'd like to see the Wave Serpent redesigned instead of being a modified Falcon. Open-topped (but protected by the field), allowing for more assaultyness, instead of the more protected Falcon's rear hatch. Buuut, I'm probably in the minority, here.

(More later, afte rthis has had time to digest.)

Alright, many of your ideas seem good. REALLY good. Bottom line and biggest problem: Most of the things you suggest are already in the codex.

Sure you could give the Dire Avengers that 1 extra attack with a CCW and a pistol but that does not really do much to make them any better, only pricier. I don't care if I have an A2 S3 T3 4+ save model or an A1 S3 T3 4+ save model, none of those would be any good in combat. I know Banshees have S3 but they do have power weapons to help make up just a little bit for their low strength. Attacking at S3 and allowing armour saves is simply not worth the points. Dire Avengers are and will always be a shooty aspect, beside being balanced as far as offense and defence goes, unless of course people change them to make them desirable in melee rather than just being a mediocre tar pit in melee at best.

Banshees: I don't really see any new suggestion at all in here, unless you are suggesting making these the only Eldar in the codex with fleet, which is just unfluffy... all Eldar except a very few heavy ones should have Fleet IMO.

Scorpions: Giving them Infiltrate as a non-upgrade USR has already been suggested. The Exarch would then be able to get a "Pathfinder"-Stealth cover, allowing them to get 2+ to every Cover save (so 5+ becomes 3+)
I would like to add more but I've gotta run

Yeah, figured that most of it had been worked out an entire thread ago, but, had to at least speak up.

The DIre Avengers getting a second melee attack is, really, just fluff. No one is going to quake in their boots over a second Str 3 non-power attack, but, sinc ethey're supposed to be the all-around experts, it made sense. The point cost likely wound't change much, either. (Heck, I tossed grenades in there as well.) Making them 'properly' was one thing, but costing them properly would be a second. Off the top of my head, I'd say 12 points, so, cheaper than a Marine, but on par with a Tau Warrior. (Both are Str 3, Tou 3, SV 4+ models, with the Tau having a better range and Str 5 weapons vs the Dire Avenger's rending Catapult and 'impressive' melee capabilities. You could even argue a Dire Avenger to be a 10 point model, but, I figured 12 to be safe.

And, yeah, not much of a change with Banshees... they've always been solid troops. Fleet would allow them to assault after running, an ability that the average Eldar shouldn't have, and I went back and forth on if they should have counter-charge before finally settling against it. I tried to come up with some sort of "Acrobatic movement" rule, such as an invulnerable save in melee or being able to pass over troops, before realizing that rule creep was a problem, not a solution, and to keep it as simple as possible. I even considered upping their Weapon SKill to 7, thus making WS 3 troops only hit on a 5+, but, once again, taht seemed to go against the grain, where a trooper's statline doesn't really change, even if given a specialized role.

If you want some thing radically different, I considered doing up the Warp Spiders as 'hunters of the warp', where the guns they carried didn't do the web blasts of old but, instead, ignored invulerable saves, making them prime Daemonhunters, since ELdar have a bit of backstory with Slaanesh. A wee bit. A smidgen, even. Didn't in the end because, well, once again, once you start making exceptions to rules, and exceptions to exceptions, you tumble back to third edition, and that's never wise.

Why shouldn't the average Eldar have fleet?
They are all incredibly swift compared to most other races, which is what Fleet really describes. If you take away Fleet as a rule for the entire Eldar codex you take away a great strength of theirs. While it's only truly useful on a melee unit - meaning Dark Eldar benefit slightly more from it - that is what really becomes a strength of the current Eldar. Your opponent knows that your soldiers are squishy and so you can really surprise people by choosing to attack (and squishy Eldar can win battles purely from having a higher initiative score).

Fleet is pretty rare for one. Most of those with it had 'beast' or 'leaping' back in older editions, like hormagaunts or rough riders. Now, the old "fleet of foot" rule is universal as "running", which clearly the Eldar can do like everyone else, but 'Fleet' as a new power is the ability to get into melee after running, which is similar enough to a 12" assault move that it can be tied to those models which used to have it.

And that doesn't include Eldar.

Tacking it onto Howling Banshees alone helps sell the idea that they're uniquely swift and agile yet keeps it different from the Swooping Hawks, who move in assault, always, but can't assault after running.

Thus, everyne gets a niche.

But Banshees already have a niche being A) agressive because of their fragility and being the only truly CC unit (apart from Harlequins) with fleet and B) MEQ destroyers because they're a bloody power weapon unit.
Just my thoughts on it.

cheapbuster wrote:

Gorechild wrote:4 attacks on the charge (S3) averages out 0.67 kills per banshee and an Exarch (with executioner) would get 1.78. That means a unit (considering you roll statistically) shoud kill 7.81 toughness 4 models. Against T5 (Plague Marines and the like) is 0.33 per Banshee and 1 from the Exarch, so the unit kills 4 models.

With Furious Charge (but 3 attacks) a banshee would average 0.75 kills (when charging) but 0.5 on subsequent rounds of combat. The Exarch would get 1.67 on the charge and 0.89 in following rounds. For the unit that means 8.42 kills on the charge and 5.39 in following turns.
Against T5 a Banshee would kill 0.5 on the charge, 0.25 in the next turn. The Exarch would average 1.33 on the charge, 0.75 in the next turn. 3 for the whole unit.

Less wounds on the charge ?

And that's what happens when you rush and finish a post 2 minutes before the end of work
I think Wooly's numbers hold up though, I cba to do it all again at the moment.

Wakshaani wrote:Firstly, I think a universal statline for Aspects is ideal... while, yes, they are specialized in their role, the most common comparison (Space Marines) shows that melee troops don't have to have a higher WS or heavy weapon teams a higher BS ... a universal statline, with some modifications due to gear, sounds like the best idea. Exarchs, in this state, would be akin to sergeants in other forces, with upgrades available that were thematic per Aspect... the models would be just like a normal Aspect Warrior, only with +1 Attack and access to unique gear.

The problem is that Space Marines (whilst still being highly skilled) are nowhere near as specialised as the Aspect Warriors. They are made to be good all-rounders, whereas the aspects strive for perfection on one path to the exclusion of absoloutly everything else. There shouldn't be anything "generic" about any of the aspects, thats the whole point of them. Theres no way a Howling Banshee should be as good at shooting as a Dark Reaper, just as a Dark Reaper shouldn't be able to get as many attacks as a Banshee would in combat.
I think it would be best to just include as much as possible into their base stats, as it can get confusing if a unit has a mountain of wargear, but thats just me.

Actually I believe that's quite easy to simulate through Wargear.
A Dark Reaper may have 48" range at BS 4 or 5, the exarch having +1 BS, which is quite impressive as that would mean that foot soldiers can shoot better than tanks - if that's not impressive I don't know what is (after all, Falcons and WS's have BS 3).
On that note, I DON'T think Reapers should have Shuriken Cannons. Rather, they should have something like they have now, maybe with more shots, but at least an AP of 1-3.

Farseer should have Conceal as a power not MindWar

Warlocks should have MindWar

Swooping Hawks should have jet packs

Dark Reapers should be 25pts not 35pts and the Reaperlauncher should be heavy 1 not heavy 2 and the Dark
Reapers Exarch power that ignores cover saves should work on the whole unit (as it dose with every other Exarch
power in the game).

Guardians should have 4+ saves, defensive and assault grenades

Wraithguard should have a feel no pain since there dead (plus every man and his dog has it now)

Night Spinner should be banned or made 275pts

Warp Spiders should not die if they get a Double maybe only on a Double 6 if at all

Rangers should be 15pts


Automatically Appended Next Post:
just my 2 cents

Well, actually, that's a small fair point regarding Mind War. It's currently (at LD10) so impotent that it's power level is better suited for a Warlock ability. Warlocks need higher LD, though.
Conceal needs to be buffed, though, if applied to a Farseer.

Swooping Hawks having Jet Packs is a favourite of mine as well, since it additionally alleviates the "deploy in a neat pattern that makes a frag missile kill the entire squad"-problem.

However, yorkskargrimironklaw, I do not understand your sentiment regarding the Night Spinner, as it is currently over-costed even compared to the 4th edition Eldar codex. Some would argue that it's situational, others would argue that it's useless. I still haven't seen anyone swear by them. The only situation where they are useful is against an Ork or Tyranid horde.

Damn, it sounds like you've been beaten in the face by a Night Spinner one to many times.....275 points is insane.

I think it's a decent idea to give the Warlocks Mind War but I also think that it's nice for the Farseer to have an offensive spell of sorts - and let's be honest: Elditch Storm is not meant to be utter destruction, just a fun utility power (as discussed it could be anti Deep Strike in some way.
I don't want to give the Farseer another average shooting power like, use your psychic power and you get this shooting attack, because on the paper, Mind War's a lot of fun - even though it's impractical. So I'll say: Just make it different.
Regarding Dark Reapers: Why on earth would anyone want to make them Heavy 1?! 4 Strength 5, AP 3 shots plus the exarch shots is just terrible when you look at the awesomeness of, say, the Fire Prism, the DAVU Falcon, the War Walker, the Night Spinner, hell even the Wraithlord and Support Weapon Platton is a lot better. I agree they should be lowered in price but they are overpriced as it is.

Borrowing from Gorechild wrote:

Swooping Hawks - xxx points
Unit size - 4 Swooping Hawks, 1 Exarch

Stats:
As now

Special Rules:
Aspect Warriors
Fleet

Unit Type:
Type is conferred by Hawk Wings

Wargear:
Hawk Wings discussed below quote
Haywire Blaster R24" S4 AP4 Assault 1 Haywire. (1=nothing 2-5=glance 6=pen)
Haywire Grenades. (1=nothing 2-5=glance 6=pen)

Options:
Up to 5 Additional Swooping Hawks may join the unit for XX points each
The Exarch weapons discussed below quote

Exarch powers:
Sky leap - The unit has access to Turbo Boost universal special rule.
Second exarch power discussed in the Hawk Wings discussion below.

Aspect Warrior- A unit with the "Aspect Warrior" Special rule can regroup as long as it is above 25% of its starting strength (rather than the usual 50%), all other conditions that prevent a unit from regrouping still apply.

Exarch weaponry- The current model for Exarch weapons are <single power weapon>, <more powerful>, and <extreme rate of fire and pinning>. With a change of role to be singularly dedicated to anti-armour (although as tradition goes, the weapon isn't too shabby at hunting Aspect Warriors, Scouts, and Tau, even though it is using a screwdriver as a hammer), there is need of change, naturally. I never did understand why every single aspect had to have the option of power weapon in close combat, when they did all they could to avoid it. Here's my suggestions:
Sun Blaster. R24", S8, Ap2, Assault 1 Lance. Better against light vehicles and MEQ/TEQ/MC, against medium vehicles and heavy vehicles it has increased penetration chance but decreased glancing chance (+1/6 pen, -2/6 glance). This is a light version of the Bright Lance.
Haywire Pulse. R24", S3, Ap4, Assault 2 Haywire. Death by glancing. With doubled number of chances to both glance and penetrate, this weapon is better at anti-vehicle than Sun Blaster, but the decreased strength over the original gun means it's only marginally better at anti-infantry and decidedly worse against MEQ/TEQ/MC.

Hawk Wings- As I see it there are two possible ways of dealing with this; either jump infantry or jet infantry. The benefits and drawbacks should be obvious, on the one hand jet infantry allows the unit to move in the assault phase on a turn when they arrive, and as such minimizing the effects of Frag Grenades and allows for safer insertions, and on the other hand jump infantry is slightly cheaper and allows for 36" reach instead of 30" reach of the main weapon. Naturally jet infantry should be the more attractive, but does it fit the unit? Personally I think it does more than arbitrarily dictating that the unit may not be attacked in order to signify that the unit is in perpetual motion - remember that even the Stubby Short Bus called "Valkyrie" can be assaulted and that's an aerial insertion craft. Hell, even Falcons are more air superiority fighter than tank.
This leaves the second exarch power. With two options, naturally there is no obvious power for them here, especially since the long range on the weapons mean that the unit prefers to stay out of close combat, and at times when they really must take something down there is some desperation so I do not think particularly that the current "always hit on no less than 4+" is poor for this unit. Here's a few I had in mind that could suit this unit:
Jump infantry - When deep striking, the unit is deployed freely in unit coherency around the central model.
Both - The unit may arrive as if it was one turn later than it really is. (4+ on turn 1 & auto on turn 4, instead of 4+ on turn 2 and auto on turn 5).
Both - Instead of arriving normally from deep strike, the unit may arrive from a table edge eligible for outflanking. This table edge is chosen, not rolled for.
Both - Overcharging their weapons, the squad's weapons have a +1 bonus to their armour piercing and strength characteristics as well as haywire rolls. One use only.*

* Do note that Eldar weapon and technology is archaic and semi-organic in nature. It would not even much of a retcon or rewrite of fluff to dictate that Eldar can influence their weapons directly through psychic/exarch powers, as the weapons themselves are already psychically made and activated. Although I should perhaps add, to my shame, that I just bought Path of the Warrior and still have not read it. It is an interesting path to explore for Exarchs in particular, though, especially for the ranged aspects - direct psychic interfacing with weapons. The codex is starved for group-benefits for especially Dark Reapers.

With hawks, why not just give the exarch this:

"Masters of the Skies: When deepstriking, the hawk unit may deploy in any arrangement, as long as it follows the normal unit coherency rule described in the Main Rulebook, rather than the usual deepstrike formation. Further, if the hawk unit should mishap during deepstrike, they always suffer a "delayed" result."

I also think that Intercept should stay. It is a nice power.

I support Jump infantry over jet infantry. Speed seems more their deal.

Well, I agree that Swooping Hawks seeming like a speeding unit.

Also, completely off-topic: Has it been discussed that Autarchs should be able to have different equipment?
I mean, let's call them the Eldar equivalent of an Archon (although, admitted, the Archon is a lot more self-focussed and the Autarch focusses on being a good general and such). The Archon can gain some rather neat equipment, no? Why not let the Autarch gain at least some equipment options that isn't just recycled from Aspect Warrios. Take the Diresword as an example: Not really that good with the Dire Avengers and it's the only Force Weapon (force weapon-ish at least) in the entire Codex! If an Autarch could get that as a pricey upgrade you could actually create a pretty mean killer (even though he might be heavily Doom reliant still).
I don't, however, think that making up a whole lot of new equipment is necessary unless people plan of including a whole of HQs that could all need some neat toys. Maybe just some the Exarch gear that isn't necessarily limited to that aspect (for example the Biting Blade is obviously a Scorpion-esque weapon, as the Mirror Swords are very Banshee-ish, but as my example states: I don't see what the Diresword has to do with the Dire Avengers).

Swooping Hawks Are Woeful.

Diresword is a fluff type deal. It makes no sense in the game, but it is a ritual instrument of the Avengers. Sort of the same reason why Baharroth is great in CC and the Hawk exarch isn't too shabby, while the Hawks themselves are hands down the worst CC aspect Eldar has.

Wooly wrote: Also, completely off-topic: Has it been discussed that Autarchs should be able to have different equipment?
I mean, let's call them the Eldar equivalent of an Archon (although, admitted, the Archon is a lot more self-focussed and the Autarch focusses on being a good general and such). The Archon can gain some rather neat equipment, no? Why not let the Autarch gain at least some equipment options that isn't just recycled from Aspect Warrios. Take the Diresword as an example: Not really that good with the Dire Avengers and it's the only Force Weapon (force weapon-ish at least) in the entire Codex! If an Autarch could get that as a pricey upgrade you could actually create a pretty mean killer (even though he might be heavily Doom reliant still).
I don't, however, think that making up a whole lot of new equipment is necessary unless people plan of including a whole of HQs that could all need some neat toys. Maybe just some the Exarch gear that isn't necessarily limited to that aspect (for example the Biting Blade is obviously a Scorpion-esque weapon, as the Mirror Swords are very Banshee-ish, but as my example states: I don't see what the Diresword has to do with the Dire Avengers).

Thing here is that those weapons are Exarch weapons, used only by them. Autarches was never Exarches. But I do agree they should get some more equipment options.

Yeah, I did come to that conclusion.
But a BS 6 Fire Dragon with a Power Weapon, 4/5 attacks and I 7 really isn't worth the points cost (about 100 pts.) There is no way that even with the Master Strategist that unit is worth 5 Fire Dragons (yes, I'm very aware that FDs are about the most points efficient aspect ever, not to say one of the best units in the bloody game).

A BS6 meltagun, with 4/5 attacks on the charge @ WS6 I7, with grenades, for 100 or so points is a pretty good deal.

If an autarch were S4 base, and wasn't competing with Yriel, the avatar, and Eldrad, he'd be on the table much more often for me.

The biggest problem with the autarch is that no matter how you build him, he is either A) designed to exist with a not-very-effective-unit (swooping hawks, shining spears) B) unavoidably unimpressive in CC (T3, combined with S3, means he can't exist in CC without help, as he needs to not take ANY S6+ wounds, and needs doom to wound T4 reliably) C) simply too expensive to be a ranged combat model

This means that he is taken for his reserves ability and kept as cheap as possible, if taken at all.

Customizability is good. retaining eldar achilles heel (T3) is good, not stepping on exarch's toes is good. But if an HQ choice desperately needs the assistance of a 2nd HQ choice to be effective against the vast majority of opponents, thats really not good.

My solution - keep most of his options the same - I feel he should be customizable, as he is, to fit with any squad the eldar can field. He does need some changes:

-- 3+ armor, 3++ invuln. Eldar technology should be good enough to make those force shields a 3++. Yes, it lends itself to possible abuse with fortune, but, priced correctly, it should be possible to make exploiting that synergy inefficient points wise.

-- S4. This runs somewhat contrary to conventional codex design, by giving what is an essentially run of the mill eldar a different statline - this is highly uncommon, but it can be justified in fluff by simply emphasizing throughout the codex that an eldar's strength in combat is directly related to the strength of the individual's mind. "The autarch is a highly experienced warrior and combat commander veteran of countless ...." etc etc. His inherent psychic ability is sufficiently strong enough to increase his strength one point. Now, he is a better threat against marines.

-- permanent Doom. GW has been adding this to codexes in different forms. For example, I believe the upgrade in the Tyranid codex is scything talons, which allows tyranids to reroll 1's (to wound or hit, not sure) in CC. The "power sword" for the autarch should become a dire sword should change from the current craptacular incarnation to always rerolling to wound rolls in combat.

Now, the autarch is a CC threat against pretty much anything T5 and under. He wounds T4 on 4+s, and rerolls failures, meaning he is going to be good for 2-4 wounds per combat round. He has a 3++ invuln, which attenuates his vulnerability to S6+ wounds (S6+ is going to be even more of a threat with GK, hammerhand and psycannons). Increase his cost by about 25/30 points and it isn't too unbalanced.

Autarch with:
fusion gun
mandiblaster
warp spider pack
dire sword
shuripistol
frag grenades

comes in around 155/160 and packs 6 S4 WS 6 I7 attacks on the charge. This, my favorite form of the autarch, as a nice buff to a warp spider mayhem-causing unit, is a mobile, good cc model with an accurate melta gun.

As we're going back to HQ's quickly I had an idea for Farseers/Eldrad.

Leave farseers basically as they are now, maybe changing Eldritch storm to make it useful, and changing Mind War (or giving it to Warlocks). Possibly removing the basic farseer's option to take Warlocks?

Then make the Ulthwe HQ "The Seer Council of Ulthwe". If it includes Eldrad, 2 farseers and 5 Warlocks (possibly allow them to upgrade to 10) but takes up 2 HQ slots. This will stop Eldrad appearing in every damn eldar list and make him be used as he should.

If you take the seer council it could allow the Warocks in the army to take some special powers only available to Ulthwe? It would encourage loads of guardians (cheapest way to ge another warlock on the board). It might look a bit death stary, but its how Ulthwe should be...almost entirely dependant on their psykers to guide them to victory.

Any thoughts?

Gorechild wrote:As we're going back to HQ's quickly I had an idea for Farseers/Eldrad.

Leave farseers basically as they are now, maybe changing Eldritch storm to make it useful, and changing Mind War (or giving it to Warlocks). Possibly removing the option to take Warlocks?

Then make the Ulthwe HQ "The Seer Council of Ulthwe". If it includes Eldrad, 2 farseers and 5 Warlocks (possibly allow them to upgrade to 10) but takes up 2 HQ slots. This will stop Eldrad appearing in every damn eldar list and make him be used as he should.

If you take the seer council it could allow the Warocks in the army to take some special powers only available to Ulthwe? It would encourage loads of guardians (cheapest way to ge another warlock on the board). It might look a bit death stary, but its how Ulthwe should be...almost entirely dependant on their psykers to guide them to victory.

Any thoughts?

Avatar should be able to be taken as a troops choice for every guardian squad you take, like a tervigon.

I actually think the idea is rather intriguing.
Especially because Eldrad is about the most badass psyker in the game (at least he should be. I mean... the guy's truly insane compared to other Eldar psykers and
those guys are the greatest psykers in the galaxy - maybe except for the Emperor. ).
And yeah: Encouraging a guardian/psyker based army for Ulthwé could be awesome, but doesn't that take us back to special rules based on Craftworld?
Then I propose the following should be the aim of the special rules:
Ulthwé: Pretty obvious, make a Guardian/Warlock army - very few Aspect Warriors whatsoever. Remember though, that Ulthwé DOES have Aspect Warriors, just not that many. But I don't think you should make something that takes up two HQ choices when thinking about that Eldrad has worked together with for example Maugan Ra in the past (battle of Haran).
Saim-Hann: Pretty damn obvious too, Saim-Hann should be all about speed. Make every Saim-Hann army focus on being Mechdar and jetbike and then solely focussing on their manouverability and speed. Saim-Hann jetbikes might be as fast as DE reavers and whatnot.
Biel-Tan: Aspect Warrior mania. As I see it, they are the most generic Eldar Craftworld there is. Perhaps make the Avatar very attractive to them? To illustrate that they are the most agressive of the Craftworlds.
Alaitoc: Rangers... Rangers... Rangers. All I have to say. Make Rangers attractive to Alaitoc. Would also be interesting to see a very Sniper-based army (and to see if it could work ).
Iyanden: Well.. once again, pretty obvious: Focus on making Wraithguard and Wraithlords attractive. At the same time I think there should be some attractive Corsair units in the codex that Iyanden may draw on (because of Yriel, of course). Come to think of it, that would also fit Alaitoc (Corsairs are outcasts too after all).

Wooly wrote:I actually think the idea is rather intriguing.

Not bad, is it?

Except the Avatar is a Special Character. XD

Wooly wrote:Except the Avatar is a Special Character. XD

Yeah lol, I wasn't being serious anyway, trying to add humour to all of these long posts that give me such a headache when i read them

Yeah, I figured. Hence my "XD"

Wooly wrote:I actually think the idea is rather intriguing.
Especially because Eldrad is about the most badass psyker in the game *snip* Encouraging a guardian/psyker based army for Ulthwé could be awesome, but doesn't that take us back to special rules based on Craftworld?

Well if each craftworlds rules are linked to a SC (this appears to be the norm this edition), then It shouldn't be hard at all.

Wooly wrote: Then I propose the following should be the aim of the special rules:
Ulthwé: Pretty obvious, make a Guardian/Warlock army - very few Aspect Warriors whatsoever. Remember though, that Ulthwé DOES have Aspect Warriors, just not that many. But I don't think you should make something that takes up two HQ choices when thinking about that Eldrad has worked together with for example Maugan Ra in the past (battle of Haran).

The only reason I was saying it should take both HQ slots is that you are effectively getting 3 Farseers + a butt load of Warlocks, I suppose it wouldn't be a problem if thet were given an appropriate point cost though (although I can see that being ~600 points ). The point is that I wanted it to encourage you to build an army entirey around the council, which is what you'd have to do. Another (probably more sensable) option would be for the Council to inculde just Eldrad and 5-10 Warlocks (Warlocks are compulsory), this would stop him turning up on his own in every list under the sun.

I like the idea of the über-costy council that might even take up two HQ slots. But couldn't the same be made for each craftworld:
For example, give Iyanden a version of Yriel with his Eldritch Raiders.

Gorechild wrote:As we're going back to HQ's quickly I had an idea for Farseers/Eldrad.

Leave farseers basically as they are now, maybe changing Eldritch storm to make it useful, and changing Mind War (or giving it to Warlocks). Possibly removing the basic farseer's option to take Warlocks?

Then make the Ulthwe HQ "The Seer Council of Ulthwe". If it includes Eldrad, 2 farseers and 5 Warlocks (possibly allow them to upgrade to 10) but takes up 2 HQ slots. This will stop Eldrad appearing in every damn eldar list and make him be used as he should.

If you take the seer council it could allow the Warocks in the army to take some special powers only available to Ulthwe? It would encourage loads of guardians (cheapest way to ge another warlock on the board). It might look a bit death stary, but its how Ulthwe should be...almost entirely dependant on their psykers to guide them to victory.

Any thoughts?

I like the idea of the Ulthwe council and making Eldrad part of the package. However I disagree with the leaving farseers as they are now. Fluff they are supposed to be the most bada$$, they pale in comparison to a standard epistolary librarian- they too can cast two spells a turn and there is a night and day difference between the effectiveness of SM/SW/BA spells and those wielded by farseers. Admittedly doom and fortune are still the best spells in the game but they are indirect.

I will raise - in simplicity - an idea discussed before for pschers. Warlock - retinue - LD 8 1 passive psychic ability. Warlock leaders - those attached to squads- LD9 1 active and 1 passive. Farseer Ld10 2 active abilities. This was discussed way before but I think psykers need a boost to reduce the Eldrad dependency.

Well, yeah, but I actually think the army-built-around-Eldrad-and-his-seer-council idea is interesting and good.
While the Eldar psykers might need some general lifts, the council suggestion actually broadens the scoop of Eldar armies you can create.
As it is now, we have roughly three kinds of lists: Jetbike lists (while most people would just work jetbikes into other lists), mechdar and footdar. So this would allow us to create the alternative Psyker list.

DAaddict wrote:

Gorechild wrote:As we're going back to HQ's quickly I had an idea for Farseers/Eldrad.

Leave farseers basically as they are now, maybe changing Eldritch storm to make it useful, and changing Mind War (or giving it to Warlocks). Possibly removing the basic farseer's option to take Warlocks?

Then make the Ulthwe HQ "The Seer Council of Ulthwe". If it includes Eldrad, 2 farseers and 5 Warlocks (possibly allow them to upgrade to 10) but takes up 2 HQ slots. This will stop Eldrad appearing in every damn eldar list and make him be used as he should.

If you take the seer council it could allow the Warocks in the army to take some special powers only available to Ulthwe? It would encourage loads of guardians (cheapest way to ge another warlock on the board). It might look a bit death stary, but its how Ulthwe should be...almost entirely dependant on their psykers to guide them to victory.

Any thoughts?

I like the idea of the Ulthwe council and making Eldrad part of the package. However I disagree with the leaving farseers as they are now. Fluff they are supposed to be the most bada$$, they pale in comparison to a standard epistolary librarian- they too can cast two spells a turn and there is a night and day difference between the effectiveness of SM/SW/BA spells and those wielded by farseers. Admittedly doom and fortune are still the best spells in the game but they are indirect.

I'll just clarify, by "basically as they are now" I meant, keeping them as single independant characters that cast a couple of powers per turn. Tweaking their powers and/or runes to make them better than SM psykers would be included in that. This is opposed to the suggestion I made a few (probably a lot by now) pages back in which the basic Farseer's were basically taken as a seer council, with different models with powers to boost the farseers range, or be used to defend him in assaults.

If the Seer Council of Ulthwe consists of Eldrad and a 5 'Lock retinue (possibly give an option to add 2 more farseers and 5 more locks for big games), and the army had access to one or two extra warlock powers, it would make Ulthwe very characterful. Things along the line of:
"Amplify - If a model has the Amplify power, the range of every farseer psychic power is increased by 6" as long as the Warlock is alive. The effect of this power is cumulative."
"Distort - If a model has the Distort power, the range of all enemy shooting units that are fired at their unit is reduced by 6", In addition, when an enemy unit assaults a distorted unit they may only assault D6"."

Perhaps a Farseer can take a 'Warlock Council' as an honor guard, which numbers 5-10 Warlocks, and Eldrad can do the same, plus upgrade 0-2 Warlocks to Farseers as well?

Thus, any Farseer can get a small number of Warlocks, but Eldrad could get a Farseer or two riding shotgun for him, because, well, that's how he rolls.

(Incidently, what are the six-ish lists that the Eldar should have?

Beil-Tia as the 'vanilla Eldar'

Alaitoc, which could take Rangers as troops (Assuming that Rangers will be Elite while Dire Avengers and GUardians are the two Troops options)

Iyanden, which takes Wraithguard as troops (But likely has tight limits elsewhere)

Saim-Hann (Jetbikes!)

Ulthwe (Upgraded Guardians in some way.)

There should probably be a couple others, but care has to be taken since moving, say, Howling Banshees or Dark Reapers to troops can get overwhelming. Mind you, I'd love to see an 'Aerie' option, where Swooping Hawks were troop selections, but, not likely to happen.)

Amplify sounds like it could be heavily abused.
As it is now, Doom and Guide are awesome, epic and brutally fearsome psychic powers.
If you can extend the range of the Farseer's psychic ability then, let's hypothetically say that first of all, Mind War is changed to ignore cover saves. Now we assume that we have 10 warlocks with amplify.
Now we have an 84" Doom, a 78" Mind War, a 66" Guide and a 66" Fortune. 78" Mind War isn't that great, I must admit, because the Farseer would need line of sight, but just to emphasies: You can Doom ANYTHING on the board (what's not within 84 inches?), you can certainly guide ANYTHING on your side of the board and along with that, Fortune ANYTHING on your side of the board.
That is, if you ask me, slightly OP. Let's say the seer council has Eldrad, two farseers and ten warlocks. That's a total of seven psychic powers at ENORMOUS range. Sure, it might cost 1000 pts for ONE unit, but I don't really think that's a problem. You can basically very accurately bombard your opponent from turn one. You can even do this WITH your council hiding out of LoS, because your Farseers could not care less.
So, optimal use would be 4 guides and 3 Dooms, maybe exchange some of them with some fortune, but still... I wouldn't want to face that.

It'll cost you some 300 points to increase doom range that much, though, and it's still only one unit on the board.

Yeah, but no one would take 10 amplifies, 5 would be more than enough, because your units don't stray off that much and Doom has fine range as it is. You might not even buy more than two or three. My point is that you will have Doomed and Guided shooting on turn one and you don't even have to care where your units are placed. As it is now you at least need to think of placing your Farseer within 6" of whatever you need to Guide.

why don't we just change fortune/guide to 12" and doom to 24", and sidestep the entire problem?

Gwyidion wrote:why don't we just change fortune/guide to 12" and doom to 24", and sidestep the entire problem?

Not bad.. I do like the idea of doubling the range of mind war and eldritch storm. Also an amplify where the farseer can take a +1 to the Ld roll of a mindwar or +1 Str to an eldritch storm. Talk about indirect power of a warlock. 5 amplifys and we are talking mindwar at Ld 15 and Eldritch storm at Str 8. I don't really care if he is getting a cover save if I have a built in +5. This would be a major commitment of a council though and at the expense of enhance and embolden so go for it.

That seems like an ok change - just for those two powers, and they shouldn't have absurd range, but honestly, if you want to invest that large of a points block into being able to snipe a single model, i have no problem with it.

The really cool and fluffy one would be a council-fied eldritch storm.

It could be sort-of-living lightning:

The seer council takes a test using the highest Ld in the unit (10, 99.9% of the time).

The eldar player selects a point on the tabletop. This point scatters as normal for a blast attack. After determining the final location of the point, all units within 6" of this point are suffer 2d3 hits with the following profile: S4 AP4. For each farseer present in the seer council, add +2S. Foreach warlock present in the seer council, add +1 inch to the radius determining units hit.


I believe we already had a discussion of seer councils....

I was scanning this huge assed post and I was wondering about the Autarch. Specificially his 1 handed and 2 handed weapons choices. Cause right now he's getting weapon choices from the aspect basic troops choices (ie Avenger Catapults, Scorpion Chainswords, Power Weapons (Banshees), Single Deathspinners, etc.

These choices kind of just make the Autarch like an extra roaming troop of a various aspect. Certainly he's more mobile with his travel options, and just a little more advanced in hand to hand. But he doesn't pop. For me, who sometimes swings into a "I don't wanna HQ this game" mode the autarch is the way to go - because he's cheap and he doesn't do a whole lot. Now yes, we all put a fusion gun onto him and see how long he lasts....but onto my idea.

I had two ideas.

One - Instead of basic aspect weapons give the guy access to the exarch armory as they appear in the current codex. Mirrorswords, Triskele, Executioner, Spinneret Rifle, Dual Deathspinners, Sun Rifle, etc etc. My reasoning is that they make the Autarch way more diverse. Much more of a threat to higher toughness assaults by way of more attacks (ie Mirrorswords) or higher strength (Executioner, Biting Blade). In shooting, he would fill a number of roles and become a very diverse HQ.

I was also thinking that this would be a good time for a plastic Autarch box set, like what they did for the SM Commander. IMO we need Exarch weapons to kitbash with. I'd love to see a Sun Rifle, Spinneret Rifle, Webs of Skulls, etc for my Exarchs without having to do some extensive kitbashing. Rules like this for the Autarch could lead to a kit like this. It could be a win win.

Idea Two - A retinue for the Autarch. I was really impressed by the Court of the Young King in the Craftworld Eldar codex. I'd like to use that pretty directly to create a potent HQ unit out of the Autarch. This idea is about as detailed as it needs to be - you get the idea.

What do you think? Either 1 or 2, or both at the same time. Would having the Autarch be a little powered up through use of Exarch weaponry be too much to ask. Your thoughts?

-MightyG

Autarch was just covered.
While nothing finished came out of it, we could all agree that the Autarch should not have Exarch weapons, for lore reasons.
Autarchs have fought as multiple aspects, hence why they can choose every aspect's gear, but they have never been lost on one path and never been lost as one aspect - e.g. they've never been Exarchs. Therefore they do not have access to the ritual weaponry of the Exarchs.
We did, however, agree that the Exarch needs some sweeter gear.
Giving him a retinue sounds interesting enough, though.

Wooly wrote:Autarch was just covered.
We did, however, agree that the Exarch needs some sweeter gear.

Did you mean Autarch or Exarch up there?

Whoops, Autarch. Bottom line: Autarchs can't have Exarch gear for lore reasons.

I see there's nothing really been mentioned for Striking Scorpions or Swooping Hawks? If you don't mind I'd like to suggest a few ideas which.. I guess will mostly be ripped off from other codexes but whatever:

Scorpions: Give them Stealth either basic or Exarch upgrade. Possibly a special Stealth that gives +2 to the cover save but only takes effect if the unit is in cover (so no 5+ save for standing in the open). Could also have an Exarch power that allows them to come on from reserve in a piece of Terrain like the Ymgarl Genestealers. Both options make sense lore wise since Scorpions are meant to be the masters of the hidden ambush. Finally they should have Fleet. If incubi can do it so can they.

Hawks: Easiest option would be to give them Haywire Grenade Launchers or Haywire Blasters... just a way to let them use Haywire Grenades from range. Let them move faster, or make them more survivable, either with an invulnerable save or cover save. Lower the cost too I think. Skyleap is a good way to escape combat but maybe it should work like Hit and Run, in that they could skyleap away at the end of any combat phase, but remove the Grenade packs, or make it that if they skyleap in the opponents combat phase then they need an unmodifiable 4+ to come back on the Eldar turn, to represent the fact that sudden swift changes aren't always easy.

Swooping Hawks have almost literally just been covered. XD
We suggested making them anti-tank and giving the Exarch the haywire ranged weapon already. ^^
As far as Striking Scorpions go, an Exarch power has been settled for that increases any cover save they recieve by +2 like Pathfinders. Also, people have spoken about giving them a Lictor like deployment.
I agree that they should have the option to deploy in some sort of ambush. I am not compeletely aware of the rules for Ymgarl Genestealers, but I would propose that after deployment, you placed your Scorps in reserve and wrote down a piece of terrain on a piece of paper (I'm not sure this is the perfect solution, but it might work). When you then get your Scorps from reserves, you show what piece of terrain you wrote down.
Perhaps you could even twist this even more and further illustrate Eldrad's awesome farseer potential by saying that his replacement move (all of it, the whole D3+1 unit would be spent on this) would be to let you choose where the Scorpions were hiding when you they arrive from reserves.
I tried to limit the usefulness of this by making it Eldrad's replacement move, but I still smell an awful game breaker if this was to be taken seriously.
"Yo dawg, I heard you like playing Tau. So I exploited your hideous need for cover by using Eldrad in my army and have my Scorpions jump at those nasty Broadsides of yours. Lolol, problem?" (Sheepish smile).
But I'm sure the mechanic of ambush could be used in some way.

I think we're moving fast onwards to a mark 3. Now that'll be a huge amount of work, partly since a lot of the consensus needs to go in one section and all the other suggestions in the other.

Well... then we better get to work, no?

@zonino - we've been through almost all of the things you have suggested already, I think the general consensus has been theat they are decent ideas. I REALLY like the Ymgarl-like idea for scorps though, thats something we hadn't considered.

@Mahtamori - I will go back and collect the newest version of each unit that I can find through this thread and put it into one post. If there are any little changes we can sort them out, and then I'll copy/paste it into a PDF, then we can open MKIII. Sound like a plan?

Yer, if Scorps have Infiltrate as innate ability (this should stick their points to about 15-16 with their current statline anyway) and then allow the Exarch to upgrade it... I like.

Mahtamori wrote:Yer, if Scorps have Infiltrate as innate ability (this should stick their points to about 15-16 with their current statline anyway) and then allow the Exarch to upgrade it... I like.

Very good indeed.
I like too that we are going on to MkIII, so that we can see everything new at once. Tell us if you need help Gorechild

I apologize in advance for the length of this post

I think we're missing Fire Prisms, Nightspinners, War Walkers, Dark Reapers, Falcons, Wave Serpents, Quins, Farseer, Autarch, Biel Tan and Ulthwe SC's, Pheonix Lords.
I assume We'll leave the green ones as they are? If you can find the entries for any of the others in amoungst the madness it would be great. could you just post a link to the specific post and I'll add it into this monster.

If there are any other things that were discussed that I've missed out whilst going through all the pages of the thread then let post them and I'll tidy it up

Mahtamori wrote:

Borrowing from Gorechild wrote:

Swooping Hawks - xxx points
Unit size - 4 Swooping Hawks, 1 Exarch

Stats:
As now

Special Rules:
Aspect Warriors
Fleet

Unit Type:
Jump Infantry

Wargear:
Hawk Wings
Haywire Blaster: R24" S4 AP4 Assault 1 Haywire. (1=nothing 2-5=glance 6=pen)
Haywire Grenades: (1=nothing 2-5=glance 6=pen)

Options:
Up to 5 Additional Swooping Hawks may join the unit for XX points each
The Exarch weapons discussed below quote

Exarch powers:
Sky leap - The unit has access to Turbo Boost universal special rule.
Aerial assault - Because of the Hawks incredible agility they are able to strike at speeding vehicles with much great accuracy than mere humans. A unit with this ability never requires more than a 4+ to hit a vehicle in close combat, regardless of the speed it moved in the previous turn.

Aspect Warrior- A unit with the "Aspect Warrior" Special rule can regroup as long as it is above 25% of its starting strength (rather than the usual 50%), all other conditions that prevent a unit from regrouping still apply.

Exarch weaponry- Sun Blaster. R24", S8, Ap2, Assault 1 Lance.
Haywire Pulse. R24", S3, Ap4, Assault 2 Haywire.

Hawk Wings-A model with Hawk Wings is able to deep strike, instead of deploying in base to base contact after the first model has been places (and any scatter is resolved), they may be places however the controlling player wants as long as the unit remains in coherency

Howling Banshees - xxx points

Unit Size - 4 Howling Banshees + Exarch
Stats - as now
Wargear - as now
Special Rules - Aspect Warriors, Furious Charge.

Options - Up to 5 additional Howling banshees may be purchased for xx points each

Exarch powers
Warshout - As now, with following exception: Initiative test instead of Ld, If the test is failed then the enemy unit will attack at WS 1 for the rest of the turn: xx points
Assault drill - A unit with the Assaut Drill exarch power may disembark, shoot (or run) and assault as long as long as the vehicle they were embarked in has moved no more than 12" that turn: xx points

Exarch Wargear
Executioner- Two handed power weapon that allows the wielder to attack with +2 strength.
Mirrorswords - Replaces Shuriken catapult and power weapon. Two single handed power weapons, they allow you to re-roll fails to hit.

Striking Scorpions - xxx points

Unit Size - 4 Striking Scorpions + Exarch
Stats - as now +1 attack
Wargear - as now
Special Rules - Aspect Warriors, Infiltrate, Outflank
Options - Up to 10 additional Striking Scorpions may be purchased for xx points each

Exarch powers
Shadow Strike - All coversaves improved by 2 (4+ becomes 2+ ect)
Stalkers - A unit with this ability can come in from reserve from any piece of area terrain rather than their board edge.

Exarch Wargear
As now?

Fire Dragons - 115 points

Unit Size - 4 Fire Dragons + Exarch
Stats - as now
Wargear - as now
Special Rules - Aspect Warriors
Options - Up to 5 additional Fire Dragons may be purchased for 20 points each

Exarch powers
*Name?* -Always hit walkers on a 4+ when using metabombs in combat.
Meltdown - If a unit with this ability scores a total of over 6 (7+) on the vehicle damage chart, the strength of the hit inflcted on the unit being transported withing the vehicle is increases to 6

Exarch Wargear
As now?

Wraithguard - xxx points

Unit Size - 4 Wraithguard + Spiritseer
Stats - as now
Wargear - as now
Special Rules -
Wraithguard- Wraith, Extreme strength
Spiritseer - see Warlock entry

Options -
Up to 5 additional Wraithguard may be purchased for xx points each.
The Spiritseer may take any of the options specified in the Warlock entry except the Eldar Jetbike.

Wraith - Wraiths are not living beings but wraithbone constructs animated by the souls of long deceased warriors. As a result they are not affected by poisoned weapons and have the fearless special rule. Unfortunately this great strength also has a downside, at the start of each eldar turn roll a dice for each unit with the "Wraith" special rule, on a roll of 1, the unit may not move, shoot or assault for the entire game turn and will be automatically hit in close combat, as the spirit animating the construct becomes dormant.
Extreme strength- The wraithguard are far taller than even the tallest of the living eldar, because of their giant stature they are able to strike with such force that the enemys armour often proves to be no defence. Any model that suffers a wound from a wraithguard must re-roll any successful armour saves.

Iyanna Arienal - 375 points
Iyanna:
WS/BS:5 S/T:3 2A I5 W3 Ld10 sv -

Wargear:
Spear of Vaul - a singing spear which ignores armor saves
Armor of Vaul - Instead of saving wounds in the normal way, Iyanna must take a leadership test every time she suffers a wound. If the leadership test is passed, the wound is saved. This save counts as invulnerable save. The Leadership test may not be modified in any way, but may be rerolled if it is forced or enabled to do so.
Runes of Warding

Special Rules:
Independent Character
Fleet of Foot
Psyker
Spiritseer of Iyanden : An army which includes Iyanna may take Wraithguard units as troop selections. In addition, while Iyanna is alive, no Wraith unit needs to test for wraithsight.

Psyker Powers:
Iyanna has all of the warlock psyker powers, and employs them all simultaneously. Note that she may still only make one shooting attack in the shooting phase.

Iyanna's Wraithlord Husband (I need to re-read the Iyanden fluff)
Normal Wraithlord, doesn't take a FoC slot, basically a "free" HS choice. Maybe +1 WS/BS.

Basically, in the above schema, the player needs to invest 375 points to get Wraithguard as troops to start with. If the player wants to take a farseer on top of that (in what will be a point-strapped list), they are free to do so.

Defender Guardians: 75 points

Stats: Warlock (as now), Guardians WS/BS3 5+

Unit size: 5 Guardians, 1 Warlock, 1 Shuriken Cannon weapon platform

Special Rules: Fleet

Wargear:Shuriken catapult R18" S4 Assault 2

Options: Up to 5 more guardians may be purchased for 8 points per model, If all 5 additional guardians are taken, another Shuriken Cannon weapons platform may be taken for +10 points.
Any shuriken cannon weapons platform may be upgraded to: Star cannon (x points), scatter laser (x points) ect ect...
The warlock may take any of the options from the warlock entry.
If the unit includes 2 heavy weapon platforms, one heavy weapon platform per unit may be replaced with a support weapon: D-Cannon for x points, Vibro cannon for x points ect...
May take WS dedicated transport.

Any heavy weapon mounted on a platform can fire even if it moved in the movement phase, A support weapon may not fire if the unit has moved this turn. Any unit that includes a heavy weapon platform may not enter a transport

Dire Avengers: 80 points

Stats: As now (BS/WS4 4+) 5++ from shimmershield

Unit size: 4 Dire Avengers, 1 Dire Avenger Exarch

Special Rules: Fleet, Aspect Warrior

Wargear:Shuriken catapult R18" S5 Assault 2, Exarch has shimmershield + 2 catapults

Options: Up to 5 more Dire Avengers may be purchased for 12 points per model
The Exarch may take any of the following powers: Bladestorm (as now), Defend (as now)
May take WS or Falcon dedicated transport

Aspect Warrior - unit can regroup as long as it is above 25% of its starting strength, rather than the usual 50%.

Shining Spears - 90 points

BS WS S T I A W Ld Sv
4---5--3-3(4)-6-2-2--9--3+

Unit type:
Jetbike

Unit Size:
2 Shining Spears, 1 Shining Spears Exarch

Wargear:
Star Lance
Shuriken Pistol
Close Combat Weapon

Special Rules:
Hit and Run

Options:
Up to 2 additional Shining Spears may be purchased for 30 points each
One Shining Spear may upgrade to an Exarch for 12 points
The Exarch may upgrade his Star Lance to a Sun Lance for 8 points
The Exarch ay purchase a Shimmershield for 15 points

Exarch Powers:
Masters of the Charge - A unit with "Masters of the Charge" may assault 12" rather than the normal 6" - 20 points
Master Riders - The whole unit have the skilled rider USR and count as having plasma grenades - 5 points

Star Lance - A Star Lance is a two handed weapon that doubles the wielders strength and ignores armour saves on the turn they charge, They can also discharge a short range blast with the folowing profile Range 6" S4 AP2
Sun Lance - A Sun lance is a two handed weapon that increases the weilders strength to 8 and ignores armour saves, They can also discharge a short range blast with the folowing profile Range 6" S5 AP2

Araenion wrote:
Warp Spiders - 115 points
BS4 WS4 S3 T3 I5 A1 W1 Ld9 Sv3+

Unit type:
Jump infantry

Unit Size:
4 Warp Spiders + 1 Exarch


Wargear:
Warp jump generator
Death Spinner:
Range: 18" S4 AP6 Assault 3, Monofilament wire


Special Rules:
A unit equiped with a warp jump generator may make a 6" jump in the assault phase, they may choose to increase the distance of this jump by D6", but if a 1 is rolled one model in the squad is lost in the warp and removed as a casualty before moving the extra inch. This move may be used even if the unit is not in a position to assault.

The death spinner releases a barrage of shots of monofilament wires that covers the enemy, impairing movement and cutting through their flesh and bone should they move. Any squad hit with a Death Spinner is treated as if being in difficult terrain the next time it moves, every model in the squad must also roll a D6 - if a 1 is rolled they suffer a wound with no saves of any kind allowed.


Up to 5 additional Warp Spiders may be added for + 20 points each

Exarch wargear options:
The Exarch may purchase an addition Death Spinner for +5 points (fired as 1 assault 6 weapon) or may exchange it for a Spinneret Rifle. A Spinneret Rifle is a sronger version of the Death Spinner that is S5 and has Rending USR for +10 points; additionally, the exarch may be equiped with a pair of poisoned blades that provide an extra attack, wound on 4+ and have Rending USR for +10 points.

Exarch Powers:
Withdraw for 15 points, provides the unit with Hit&Run USR
Suprise assault for 10 points, when the Exarch's squad Deep Strikes from reserve, they scatter d6" instead of the usual 2d6"

Vypers - XXX points

BS WS S T I A W Ld Sv
4---4--3-5-5-1-2--9--3+

Unit type:
Jetbike

Unit Size:
3 Vypers

Wargear:
Twin Linked Shuriken Catapult
Shuriken Cannon

Special Rules:
Scout

Upgrades:
Up to two additional Vypers may be purchased for +XX points each
Any Twin Linked Shuriken Catapult may be upgraded to a Shuriken Cannon for +5 points each
Any Shuriken Cannon may be upgraded to Scatter Lasers for +XX points each
Any Shuriken Cannon may be upgraded to Star Cannon for +XX points each
Any Shuriken Cannon may be upgraded to Eldar Missile Lanchers for +XX points each
Any Shuriken Cannon may be upgraded to Bright Lance for +XX points each

Guardian Jetbikes - XXX points

BS WS S T I A W Ld Sv
3---3--3-4-5-1-1--8--4+

Unit type:
Jetbike

Unit Size:
3 Guardian Jetbikes + Warlock on Jetbike

Wargear:
Twin Linked Shuriken Catapult

Options:
Up to 6 additional Jetbikes may be purchased for XX points each
The Warlock may take any of the Warlock powers from the Warlock entry
1 Guardian Jetbike in every 3 may upgrade its Twin Linked Shuriken Catapult to a Shuriken Cannon for XX points

Gorechild wrote:Nuadhu 'Fireheart', Wild Rider of Saim Hann - XXX points

WS: 6 BS: 6 S: 3(6) T: 5 I: 6 A: 4 W: 3 Ld: 10 Sv: 3+


Unit Type:
Independant Character
Jetbike

Wargear:
Alean
Holofields
Shuriken Cannon
Spear of Wind

Special Rules:
Hit and Run
Furious Charge
Brotherhood of the Wind

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spear of Wind - Ignores armour, double strength in CC (already included in profile)
Holofields - 4+ inv save
Alean - A special Vyper that is riden as a jetbike, confers +2 toughness and a 3+ armour save (included in profile)
Reckless - Nuadhu confers all of his USR's to any unit that he is joined to.
Brotherhood of the Wind - The wild riders of Saim Han are masters of the eldar jetbike, perfectly equipt to take on any foe from the back of their wraithbone steeds. For every 3 models in a unit of Guardian jetbikes in an army with Nuadhu, 1 may upgrade their shuriken catapult with a fusion gun or flamer for +6 points, as well as the normal shuriken cannon upgrade option
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hoec - XXX points

-BS-WS-S--T--I---A-W--Ld--Sv
--8--5---3--3--6--2--3--10--3+

Unit Type
Independant Character

Wargear:
Silence
Defensive Grenades

Special Rules:
Less Than a Shadow
Mentor of Guile

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Silence- Range 48" S8 AP1 Heavy 1 Pinning or Range 48" S5 AP3 Assault 3 Pinning

Less Than a Shadow- Hoec and any unit he joins have all cover saves improved by 2 (4+ becomes 2+ ect) In addition, Hoec has a 4+ invunerable save against any wounds inflicted by a weapon that ignores cover.

Mentor of Guile- Every ranger long rifle in an army that includes Hoec changes its type from "Heavy 1" to "Assault 1"

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Gwyidion wrote:
Wraithlord - xxx points

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 5 10 8 3 3 3 10 2+

Unit Type
Monstrous Creature

Special Rules
Fearless
Wraith

Wargear:
two wrist mounted twin-linked shuriken catapults
wraithsword

The wrist mounted twin-linked shuriken catapults may be replaced with:
2 flamers (for free), 2 Heavy Flamers (for XX pts) or 2 Wraithcannons (for XX pts)

The wraithsword may be replaced with:
Shuriken Cannon (for free), Star Cannon (for XX pts), Scatter Laser (for XX pts), Eldar Missile Launcher (for XX pts) or a Bright Lance (for XX pts)

They may also take:
A second wraithsword (+1A) (for XX pts), a Shuriken Cannon (for XX pts), a Star Cannon (for XX pts) a Scatter Laser (for XX pts) an Eldar Missile Launcher (for XX pts) or a Bright Lance (for XX pts)

Alternativly, all non-wrist mounted weapons may be replaced with:
A Pulse Laser (for XX pts), a D-Cannon (for XX pts), a Shadow Weaver (for XX pts) or a Vibrocannon (for XX pts)

The Avatar of Khaine: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
10 6 6 6 6 4 4 10 3+ (4++)

Special Rules:
Monstrous Creature
Daemon (4++)
Molten Body (any Flamers,heavy flamers,hand-flamers,infernus pistols,flamestorm cannons, Inferno cannons, meltaguns, Multi-Meltas, Heat lances, combi-flamer or combi-meltas cannot wound the Avatar)
Fearless
Inspiring (any unit within 12” counts as being fearless, Any unit that can draw line of sight to the avatar has the stubborn USR)

Wargear:
The Wailing Doom-Range 12” Strength:8 AP:1 melta

Rangers: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
3 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 5+

Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Stealth (2+ for Pathfinders)
Move Through Cover (Pathfinders
Infiltrate

Wargear:
Eldar Long Rifle (Sniper) (5 or 6 is a rending shot for Pathfinders and counts as AP1)

Dark Reapers - xxx points

Unit size: Exarch + 4 Reapers, can take 5 additional Reapers
Stats: As now
Weapon: As now
Special Rules: Slow and Purposeful, Aspect Warrior
Exarch Powers: Relentless: Unit replaces Slow and Purposeful with Relentless
Crackshot: coversaves of whole unit reduced by 2 (4+ becomes 6+)
Exarch Weapons Tempest Launcher: as now
*Can't think of name* - Range 48" S8 AP3, Heavy 1, Split fire (can fire at different unit as rest of squad)

Seer Council of Ulthwe - xxx points
Eldrad Ulthran, 4 Warlocks
Up to 5 warlocks may be added for xx points each and up to 2 Farseers may be addedd for xx points each.

Special Rules: Fleet.
Options: Each warlock may take one of the psychic powers from the Warlock entry, or one of the following: Amplify: The range of all Farseer powers in this unit are increased by 6", the effect of this power is cumulative. Distort: The range of all enemy shooting attacks fired at the seer council are reduced by 6", when assaulting a unit with a unit with the distort warlock power the enemy may only move d6", the effects of this power are not cumulative.
Any Warlocks or Farseers (except Eldrad Ulthran) may replace their Witchblade with a singing spear for x points.
The Farseers may take any of the psychic powers from the farseer entry, Eldrad Ulthran has all the powers, in addition to "Forewarn: This power can only be cast on a unit of guardians. If this power is sucessfully cast, the entire unit of guardians may fire in the enemies assault phase when an assault is declared against them, but before the enemy models move into base contact. They must fire at the first unit that is attempting to assault them.
The Seer Council of Ulthwe may take a Wave Serpent or Falcon dedicated transport.

PLEASE DONT MAKE ANY NEW SUGGESTIONS FOR THE TIME BEING, WE NEED TO TRY AND CONTROL THIS MADNESS!

OK I am going to break the request. One of the things making this stream being very hard to follow is that we are now going off on different tangents. Vehicles, aspects, farseers and warlocks, autarchs. Might I suggest that it is time to subdivide all these issues and make them a separate
post like "Ideas for the Eldar Mk III: Autarchs" and "Ideas for the Eldar Mk III: Swooping Hawks"

It'll be hard since some discussions will inevitably involve more than one unit. Spiders will interfere with Hawks, and Guardians and Avengers will wreck havoc on each other if kept separate.

Might be good to start compiling to a codex, even though that means costs will have to be worked out as well (something that's actual with Night Spinner, btw).

I'm really struggling to find any of our discussion on Quins or Dark Reapers. If anyone can remember anything or find a mock-up entry that one of us made could you quote it here again?

As far as points go, I was thinking we could leave them blank, and in MK3 others can look at the entries and give their opinion on what they should cost.

We agreed to give them Kisses as standard equipment.
Beyond that, suggestions were as far as I remember: Solitaire back as HQ maybe, possibly give the Harlequins only some kind of webway portal. Don't think there was much more to that.

Dark Reapers: there's been a few suggestions.
* Straight up Relentless.
* Option to go Slow and Purposeful for a turn.
* Indirect fire through other units (particularly Swooping Hawks) where you'd use the other unit's vision to determine cover and line of sight.
* Increased armour to 3+

No mockups though.

I'm going to admit I didn't read all the thread so I apologise about talking about things already discussed but I'm glad most of my suggestions were already suggested. Great minds and all that.

@Mahtamori Dark Reapers already have a 3+ Armour save, the other things sound interesting. Slow and Purposeful would allow them to move around but not too quickly. Indirect fire might be a bit much, but perhaps they could split fire between them and their exarch? After all if you give the Exarch an EML to shoot at heavier tanks it makes the rest of the unit a bit pointless, and at the same time when they shoot at the unit the EML isn't as good as the Tempest Launcher unless it's GEQ.

Fail on my part, keep thinking of 3e codex since I so seldom use them

Dark Reapers and Seer Council of Ulthwe added. Do they look okay?

If any units are remaining unchanged I'll just leave them out of the Dex entirely. I'm reluctant to make big changes (or any really) to Quins as it will stop them matching up with DE.

If anyone spots any massive screw ups let me know, I'll start moving that into a dex now

'quins won't really be used much in the DE codex which can support them due tot heir cost and in the CWE codex they are both costly and difficult to support, so they badly need to change. The big problem is their dual-codex nature which just ensures they will never change.

Shouldn't Wraithlords have the 'Wraith' special rule like Wraithguard?

Gorechild wrote:Dark Reapers and Seer Council of Ulthwe added. Do they look okay?

Just one thing I remembered: Warlock powers are never cumulative, so no need wording that Amplify and Distort aren't cumulative.

@ZeroSamurai - Good catch, it's stupid things like this that I'm missing. Thanks.

Aren't wraithlords also made of the same material as wraithguard and thus shouldalso be immune to poison? I fully understand that makes wraithlords nearly immune to all types of small arms fire but...

harlequins can't live under the "they need to match with the other codex" idea... or they will never, never change.

It is ok to change them.

Can anyone find the most up to date version of all the heavy weapons ideas?

I'm very nearly done writing up the dex. Its only a rough outline for each unit that we can work on in MKIII. I'll be leaving all the point costs blank though. I just need to sort out the 'Quins entry and do some tidying up and we'll be there!

Gorechild wrote:Can anyone find the most up to date version of all the heavy weapons ideas?

I'm very nearly done writing up the dex. Its only a rough outline for each unit that we can work on in MKIII. I'll be leaving all the point costs blank though. I just need to sort out the 'Quins entry and do some tidying up and we'll be there!

Can we Make the MKIII Thread?

I don't think we've got anything remotely approaching a consensus on the heavy weapons, but I'll try to recap on what's been discussed. Mainly it's about breaking the flavour-of-S6.

Shuriken Cannon.
- Keep as is.
- Alter to high ROF, low S to keep it defensive (Heavy 5 S4 Ap4)
(- Deny Reapers these)

Scatter Laser.
- Keep as is.

Missile Launcher.
- Keep as is.

Bright Lance.
- Cost reduction absolutely necessary. At least 10 points flat across the board.

Star Cannon.
- Heavy 2 S7 Ap2
- Heavy 3 S6 Ap2
- Heavy 1 S6 Ap2 Blast

Pulse Laser.
- Keep as is.
- Make available for all heavy weapons platforms at roughly the cost of current Bright Lance

---

Support weapons in general.
- Moved to replace a platform in a Guardian squad
- Moved to replace two platforms in a Guardian squad per support platform
(I'd personally love to see these particularly Vibro Cannon on Falcons)

D-Cannon.
- +12" range.
- Made available to Wraithlords

Vibro Cannon.
- Reference point scatter similar to barrage blast.
- Extra cannons add +1 hit / glance
- Ignores cover

Shadow Weaver.
- Monofilament

---

The key to remember about Eldar heavy weapons is that it's mainly the costs and Star Cannon that are the problem, the rest of their issues are more to do with the individual units using them. Guardians have a problem with survival versus volume of fire, Falcons have a problem with the new vehicle rules preventing them from using all weaponry, Wraithlords pay a premium for additional weapons of the same variety, Vypers have a problem with survival versus cost, etc.

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For 'quins, here's a suggestion:
All Harlequins are armed with Kisses, cost is increased by +2 (this is a cost reduction of 2). Shrieker Cannon counts as a two-handed power weapon in close combat.

Harlequin's Kiss could become a special ability (Rending Blades) to preserve model consistency. The actual Harlequin's Kiss models would in such case be provided a new shiny weapon which truly represents injecting a spinning monofilament wire into the enemy's body.
Single attack power weapon attack which causes instant death, which always wound on 2+? (Numbers on old kiss: (MEQ) 3x (((4/6)x(1/6)x(2/6))+(4/6)x(1/6) ~= 3x 0,148 = 3x (32/216) = 3 chances at 4/27 OR roughly 55.6% chance of killing with new Kiss versus 38.2% (47.3% on charge) chance of killing with old kiss)

Mahtamori wrote:Dark Reapers: there's been a few suggestions.
* Straight up Relentless.
* Option to go Slow and Purposeful for a turn.
* Indirect fire through other units (particularly Swooping Hawks) where you'd use the other unit's vision to determine cover and line of sight.
* Increased armour to 3+

No mockups though.

In an effort to make the foot dar army viable. Change the reaper launcher to S7 AP3 ROF1. With the exarch ability transferring to the squad of Quick Fire +1 ROF or Crack shot Ignore cover. S7 will give the foot dar the requisite number of shots and when added to an exarch packing an EML, that is potentially 8 S7 and 2 S8 shots. Relentless of course could be added. The issue is then the cost of the unit.

I've finished as much as I can for the PDF.

The MK3 thread, with the uploaded PDF has been opened HERE

DAaddict wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Dark Reapers: there's been a few suggestions.
* Straight up Relentless.
* Option to go Slow and Purposeful for a turn.
* Indirect fire through other units (particularly Swooping Hawks) where you'd use the other unit's vision to determine cover and line of sight.
* Increased armour to 3+

No mockups though.

In an effort to make the foot dar army viable. Change the reaper launcher to S7 AP3 ROF1. With the exarch ability transferring to the squad of Quick Fire +1 ROF or Crack shot Ignore cover. S7 will give the foot dar the requisite number of shots and when added to an exarch packing an EML, that is potentially 8 S7 and 2 S8 shots. Relentless of course could be added. The issue is then the cost of the unit.

No more suggestions for the moment, Gorechild is writing a codex with the suggestions so far. Wait 'till MKIII

I like the way Striking scorpions have been made into stealth experts, good call.