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After a thousand more posts we're moving onto the third incarnation of the "Ideas for the next Eldar Codices" thread.

I've summed up a lot of the ideas that got some sort of consensus in the two old threads and put them into a PDF. I've left all the points values blank for now, so that we can get some feedback to see if our existing ideas are vaguely fuffy and basically make sense! Please don't suggest specific point values yet, We'll establish those when we have a good overview of how the whole 'dex will look.

If you've got any suggestions for things to add/change then feel free to chip in, regardless of what direction the conversation seems to be going at the time. If you simply start your post by saying "@Howing Banshees" or "@Seer Council of Ulthwe" ect, if you do, I'll make sure to go through it and if it makes good sense then I'll add it into the next version of the Fandex


Anyway....Here it is

Alright, just something. I feel that the Farseer should have SOME kind of offensive psychic power. I'm not sure what it should be, yet, but I would just like to let them be something else than a force multiplier - while force multiplying would still be their main role.

YEAHHHH! MKIII!!!!

The avatar should probably have eternal warrior.

I'm not sure if you meant to have scorpions be able to get to 14, or wraithguard to be a 4+warlock, with option for 5 more.

I also still think shining spears need more help - they need to be able to be more durable in the 2nd round of assault, and I think the shimmershield should be fluff'd to be a larger, bike mounted unit which gives 4++ in CC. They probably won't be operating near a farseer. If their lances are retconned to work like executioners, that would be pretty good.

Something I'd add is that rangers/pathfinders stealth is not cumulative with Hoec's Less Than a Shadow.
Also, Wraithguards Extreme Strength should only work in close combat.

And I'm saying it for the third time: Star Lance should be an Exarch Weapon!

Otherwise I like it.

Thanks! Will review it and hopefully make some helpful suggestions.

Overall I think the dex is fantastic.
Some minor tweaks/questions

@The Avatar of Khaine: I don't see much of a change at all from the current version (which very well have been the consensus). I still think his offensive capabilities should be enhanced. Compared to other CC geared MC's he is pretty meh, often outperformed by trygons or maybe even the new Talos. I would give him re rolls to hit at least, maybe even another attack, and I agree that EW is a good call.

@Farseer: I don't get runes of nullification. Why do we need another anti psyker rune when we already have a really good one (runes of warding). Giving him both seems like overkill

@scorpions: Especially considering the new stalker power (which is great) I think these guys need move through cover. Also am I correct in reading that we gave them another attack on their profile?

@Fire dragons: Y you no fleet? Since they are awesome in CC with melta bombs now I think this is a no brainer.

Also I take it from their disappearance from the dex, that War walkers and fire prisms are fine as is (with heavy weapon point tweaks of course)?

Tortoiseer wrote:

@scorpions: Especially considering the new stalker power (which is great) I think these guys need move through cover. Also am I correct in reading that we gave them another attack on their profile?

+1 to this. In the current Dex, Move Through Cover is an Exarch power. They should either get this as a standard ability, or it should be incorporated in one of the Exarch abilities.
However, it seems that SS will be universally hated by EVERYONE now.

Wooly wrote:

Tortoiseer wrote:

@scorpions: Especially considering the new stalker power (which is great) I think these guys need move through cover. Also am I correct in reading that we gave them another attack on their profile?

+1 to this. In the current Dex, Move Through Cover is an Exarch power. They should either get this as a standard ability, or it should be incorporated in one of the Exarch abilities.
However, it seems that SS will be universally hated by EVERYONE now.

I would agree they need move through cover.

There was a lot of discussion and I thought agreement on adding 1A to all the aspects and perhaps 1 WS. The idea being that they are at least the equivalent of every veteran marine who gets a base A2. The WS idea is more a concession to the T3 that all eldar suffer from. This gives them more survivability due to more lethality and less susceptibility to things like khorne berzerkers.

Tortoiseer wrote:
@The Avatar of Khaine: I don't see much of a change at all from the current version (which very well have been the consensus). I still think his offensive capabilities should be enhanced. Compared to other CC geared MC's he is pretty meh, often outperformed by trygons or maybe even the new Talos. I would give him re rolls to hit at least, maybe even another attack, and I agree that EW is a good call.

Giving the Avatar something like Preferred Enemy against everything would make sense and give him the re-rolls, perhaps he could transfer it to nearby eldar like he does with Fearless.

@ Saintspirit: Wraithcannon is AP2, so a re-roll on a non-existant armour save is fine

@ Offensive Farseer ability: Mind War could effectively be made into a psychic shooting attack with the profile R24" S10* Ap1 Assault 1 Blast. * This power uses the affected models leadership value rather than toughness value. A model without a leadership value may not be harmed by this attack. Should a model be wounded by this ability, but have no wounds in their profile, the model is instead stunned and may not take any voluntary actions during it's next player turn.
No longer an assassination power, but it's more in line with other psychic powers and quite obviously a PSA. Aaaand it works against Dread-Librarians.

@PDF: Bloody excellent write-up, Gorechild! Stick more points in there and it's a functioning codex

Major things.

Autarch / Banshee: Banshee Mask (rules fix).
Currently Banshee Mask does not work as intended. Previous edition had the defender at I10 when behind cover, current edition has the assaulting unit at I1 when assaulting through cover. Suggestion:
"In the first round of an assault a model wearing a Banshee Mask has Initiative 10 and negates any Initiative benefits or drawbacks due to grenades or cover."

Autarch: Logistical Espionage
It's a bit random. A roll to re-roll. I feel 2 is a good even number.

Autarch: Deception
Dangerously random. You don't know if you get to re-deploy 1 or 3 units, thus limiting how deceptive you can be. I feel 2 is a good number.

Warlock
These, surprisingly, only have LD8. Should have LD9. Mind War is going to be useless at LD8, but appropriate for a Warlock power at LD9 in addition to following the style of unit Sarge' providing +1LD to squad.
Also, have we scrapped the Warlock council? Can the Farseer take these as retinue?

Warlock: Spiritseer
...and any unit within 6"? To help Wraithlords out which can never be put into the same unit as the Warlocks.

Defender Guardians
I'm still uncomfortable with 2-for-1 deal on support platform upgrade. We're then back to a situation where 70% of the unit's cost has nothing, what so ever, to do with the unit's role.
Essentially, since the support weapons are all barrage, the unit is going to spend a lot of time shooting at stuff that their shuriken cats can't even target - and since they are cunningly no longer artillery the unit can a) move-and-shoot with them, but b) not shoot at different targets.

Fire Dragons: Exarch abilities
I think we'll have to discuss these specifically. This unit is extremely hard to get a good pair for, but I do like the anti-walker ability as this covers one slight drawback - but I must say this that a walker which has survived a round of shooting from Fire Dragons deserves to live (generally speaking, dreadnoughts have more than 27,8% chance of being out-right destroyed by a Fire Dragon attack - per Fire Dragon).

Vypers
Some minor points which forms a major one.
Unit size: Squad size is 3-5 with these pimped stats?
Crew-members: This has two crew-members, something which the BRB oddly allows the look of the model to dictate and heavily affect the outcome of the rules. Perhaps this should be specified for clarity?
BS/WS: Wouldn't these still be crewed by Guardians, unlike the super-pimp Warp Prism?
Attacks: Since it's two crew-members, wouldn't it have two attacks?
Pimping: Sorry for using this word, I'm tired, ok?

Wraithlord: Wraithsword
Does this still provide re-rolls in melee? If so, the base point cost could be extrapolated to the 120-125 region (BS/WS was increased as well, I note), with the additional Wraithsword coming in at at least +15 points.

Dark Reapers
2 minor things turn into a major point
Slow and Purposeful - the drawback here is that even if they do not shoot, they must move as if in dangerous terrain. The clash with the fluff is that the armour locks itself to form supportive exoskeleton when needed, and the unit is otherwise quite mobile.
Destroyer - I get where you are coming from with this, but wouldn't it make more sense if the Exarch himself was able to split fire (I almost wrote "doggy style")? It feels a bit artificial that this ability should stem from a weapon.

War Walkers
It was my impression that War Walkers were more or less agreed to be wrongfully placed in the FOC, but conceptually working? Now, this might change with a functional Vyper unit, but a War Walker squadron would make most sense as the preference for Fast Attack in an Iyanden list, or for that matter an Alaitoc list even though there's no obvious Alaitoc-style HS.

Minor things.

Farseer / Warlock: Singing Spear.
Effectively you are trading one melee attack for an upgraded ranged attack which is not compatible with Psychic Shooting Attacks. This upgrade ought to be free, or the range on the spear should be increased (in which case it would work admirably to provide a PSA-light for a Supportseer).

Autarch: Master Strategist
I have a feeling all of these stratagems could be made equal in effect, thus negating the need to pay for them or simply blanket cost them.

Autarch: Ambush!
Would it not make sense to allow a Alaitoc-style army to infiltrate units that are not inherently deceptive with this? "Up to two units gain Infiltrate special rule." Stick those Banshees somewhere it'll hurt. As an alternative moderation: "Up to two units may deploy as if they had the Infiltrate special rule, note that this ability is not conferred between dedicated transports and their host unit the way a normal Infiltrate special rule is and must be given to each unit separately for them to infiltrate together."

Banshee: War Shout
This falls under the rules limbo of "taking initiative tests for units without homogeneous initiatives isn't covered by the rules". If each model takes the test, I'd have to warn against huge amount of rolls!
Also, it's a bit weak for an upgrade that only functions on one turn. Might I suggest simply "models assaulted must re-roll rolls to hit"? If they live that long, they are probably going to do some heavy damage to the Banshees the following turn anyway. Naturally, this will push the points for the power up from 1-5 points range. to keep the points down somewhat, have it affect models in BTB rather than all of the enemy unit.

Swooping Hawks
I am happy

Shining Spears: Star and Sun Lance
Unless Star Lance and Sun Lance are specified to only be allowed during an assault phase in which the Shining Spears initiates an assault, then the Shining Spears will never be allowed to use their pistol+CCW since the Lances are special close combat weapons. Additionally, with a 12" assault range, the discharge option for the lance will be... limited... and only the catapults ever used. Match lance range with charge range?
"A Star/Sun Lance is a two-handed weapon which may only be used during a player phase in which the model initiated an assault. It strikes at strength 6(8) and ignores armour saves. In addition, it may unleash a powerful ranged attack which has the following profile: Range 12" S6(8) Ap2 Assault 1 Lance"

Warp Spiders
Even though we can discuss points (especially on the spinnerette), I am happy

Wraithlord: Heavy Flamer
I feel this is over-kill as the model is already half a god in melee.

Wraithlord: Wraithcannons
I like.

Now, I tried to clean this up, but it's honestly way past bed time so it'll probably not make sense enough. Just take it with a pinch of salt.

Love the move to mark III, though I haven't read all the way through it yet, I wanted to revisit the Avatar.

@avatar: What if there were two levels of avatar. The current one which would help lead you to take the avatar in smaller battles, affordable points, fairly powerful but not dominant. Then have another version, the greater avatar say and have him costing up around the 275-300 point range with comparable stats to make him a force comparable to a god of war. Thought of this because I thought I saw a picture of a Forgeworld avatar that was bigger then a wraithlord while my old style citadel avatar is smaller then the old style wraithlord.

I imagine the greater avatar would have stats perhaps similar to this?
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
10 5 7 8 5 8 5 10 2+

As well as his current abilities and some others?

Lot of great ideas in this MarkIII. So don’t think that I’m mercilessly ripping on this as you read. I like a lot of what I see in here.

I’m coming around to having a Falcon be a transport. Initially I was like WTF, but upon further pondering I can see the Falcon as an Eldar equivalent to a Razorback.

Like the idea of inclusive sergeants (Exarchs / Warlocks) on minimum points buy.



Autarch
So where are the weapon options? I still think he should get some sort of Exarch bodyguard like Court of the Young King from Craftword Eldar.

Iyanna Arienal
Really needs to be able to turn Wraithguard and Wraithlords into troops choices in addition to their normal (Heavy/Elite) slots. Having WLs be heavy is such bunk IMO.

Hoec
Better seved as a squad upgrade like Sergeant Namaan or Lukas the Trickster. And what’s the deal with Silence? Our Rangers get to crack open Land Raiders and Monoliths now? Snipers should be snipers. Mentor of Guile is pretty cool though.

Defender Guardians
First the minimum troop size is all screwy. I don’t think that there’s a ten man squad in the game (Troops not Heavies) the runs with 2 heavy weapons. Also the idea of transporting 10 Guardians, 1 Warlock, and 2 HWPs in a Wave Serpent is too ridiculous. If you start the minimum squad size at 10 and give upgradability to 15 or 20 still give the players the ability to go MECH at a cost of not having 2 HWPs or a Support Platform or the ability to slog it out fleet style with a HWP or an SP.

As far as the support weapon (Vibro, D-Cannon, etc) you should probably tie this upgrade to a minimum troop size IE “If the 5 (or 10) extra Guardian are taken you may taken an additional HWP for a total of two. Optionally you may forego an additional HWP and replace the first for a Support Weapon”

Wraithguard
Unit size should be kept at 5 + Warlock.
Extreme Strength – I cannot buy into “Tall = armor rerolls” Rerolling armor saves is also a bit unprecedented. Maybe give them the rending USR instead.

Harlequin
Death Jester…why is his heavy weapon suddenly a power weapon too? Are we just upgrading for the sake of upgrading? If you must why not just give him access to an HK or a PW.

Swooping Hawks
Haywire Blaster…Omg too OP. SHawks have always been anti troop harassers. I think you’d have a lot of people crying foul at a 24” Haywire gun.
Also the decision to not acknowledge Hawk’s Grenade Pack is a travesty fluff wise and mechanically.


Great Fandex

-MightyG

seapheonix wrote:Love the move to mark III, though I haven't read all the way through it yet, I wanted to revisit the Avatar.

@avatar: What if there were two levels of avatar. The current one which would help lead you to take the avatar in smaller battles, affordable points, fairly powerful but not dominant. Then have another version, the greater avatar say and have him costing up around the 275-300 point range with comparable stats to make him a force comparable to a god of war. Thought of this because I thought I saw a picture of a Forgeworld avatar that was bigger then a wraithlord while my old style citadel avatar is smaller then the old style wraithlord.

I imagine the greater avatar would have stats perhaps similar to this?
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
10 5 7 8 5 8 5 10 2+

As well as his current abilities and some others?

It's a cool, idea, no doubt. But it doesn't really help us with the whole, sticking-fluff-as-it-already-is idea. My point: Craftworlds only have one Avatar, born from one shard of Khaine. I doubt there are any Craftworld avatars that are stronger than others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MightyGodzilla wrote:
Iyanna Arienal
Really needs to be able to turn Wraithguard and Wraithlords into troops choices in addition to their normal (Heavy/Elite) slots. Having WLs be heavy is such bunk IMO.

Oh, I can't wait 'till I have scoring Wraithlords. No, seriously, don't you think it's a little OP to have that option? I mean sure, you might make it elite or something, but I don't like the idea of a T8 shooting platform that can also hold objectives.

Love the idea for Iyanna Arienal, but I think the wraithlord husband thing is a bit weird. Yes I know in the fluff she is described as having a wraith(lord?) construct acompany her but I think it's a little much. He attempts to rescue her if she gets into combat? B^#ch has a badass singing spear, and insanely good armour, why does he need to recue her, because right now that appears to be the only thing distinguishing him from any other lord. Surely anyone using her would already have another wraithlord in their list so why not just say that he's the hubby and forget about it?

Anyway on to other things

I think the farseer needs a good shooting power. In the fluff they're depicted snapping tanks in half with their mind so maybe just keep eldritch storm but make it a bit more powerful. I was thinking
Range 24" S:6 Ap:4/5 (or maybe S:2d6 Ap d6?)

Hoec- should only be able to join rangers/pathfinders or make him an upgrade sarge thing

Im still an advocate for Fire Dragons being able to swap their fusion guns out for flamers. Im sure few people would but i like the idea of the option.

The Wraith Special rule has a big problem in that they arent affected by poison. Now i agree that they shouldn't be affected by poison as much as other units but poisoned weapons still need to be able to hurt them otherwise D.E will have a nightmare trying to down a full squad of 10 wraithguard (or is it 9 now?). I was thinking maybe just make it so all poisoned weapons would on a 6 instead of their norm value. Also Wraithguard should count as two models for the purposes of transport.

Death Jester- Shieker cannon needs to add +1 strength

Thats all i can really think of right now, but still its an excellent start, and much credit to you for writing what looks like a promising fandex.

The browser ate my edit, so I'll keep it a bit shorter and to the point (yeah right...).

MightyGodzilla wrote:Defender Guardians
First the minimum troop size is all screwy. I don’t think that there’s a ten man squad in the game (Troops not Heavies) the runs with 2 heavy weapons. Also the idea of transporting 10 Guardians, 1 Warlock, and 2 HWPs in a Wave Serpent is too ridiculous. If you start the minimum squad size at 10 and give upgradability to 15 or 20 still give the players the ability to go MECH at a cost of not having 2 HWPs or a Support Platform or the ability to slog it out fleet style with a HWP or an SP.

20 man squads is a nail in the "dying race" fluff eye. By limiting the squad size to 10, it is still believable and makes for a more unique feel to the army where even the cheaper units must be given a purpose and can't be massed for victory.
While you are correct in that Guardians would then be the first unit to feature 2 heavy weapons in a single Troop choice in a 5th edition codex (if we ignore IF Heavy Weapons Squad which can feature 3 heavy weapons for significantly lower point cost, but at a lack of plastic wrap), this does not mean that it's a bad idea.
As a middle path, the Defenders could combine with Storm Guardians: "
* Any Guardian may replace their Shuriken Catapult with a Shuriken Pistol and a Close Combat Weapon at no additional cost.
* For every five Guardians in the unit, one Guardian may replace his Shuriken Catapult with one of the following for 6 points:
- Flamer
- Fusion Gun
- <Range 24" S4 Ap3 Assault 1>
* A squad of ten Guardians may be given a Shuriken Cannon platform at no additional cost, which may be upgraded"

However, this is completely dogging the Space Marine codices, which may be a bad thing, since it also assumes that there's a Devastator squad in the codex somewhere - which an Eldar codex won't have. Devastators can choose their weapons, while Eldar aspect warriors may not.

In either case, I personally consider 9 extra Guardians clustered around an artillery piece ridiculous, having 19 extra clustered around the same piece would take the price in excess.

Wraithguard
Unit size should be kept at 5 + Warlock.
Extreme Strength – I cannot buy into “Tall = armor rerolls” Rerolling armor saves is also a bit unprecedented. Maybe give them the rending USR instead.

Tyranid Bone Swords.
There have been several other suggestions as well, for example making them Monstrous Creatures (power weapons with extra vehicle annihilation at the cost of significantly reduced cover claiming) or straight up power weapons, or power fists. This is the first time I see Rending, but Rending for a unit which essentially would pick up a spess mahreeen and then crush his head in the palm for it's hand... Wraithguard are large, towering, powerful machines. They carry weapons which an Eldar can't carry, physically, and likely a Space Marine would struggle to even lift.

Harlequin
Death Jester…why is his heavy weapon suddenly a power weapon too? Are we just upgrading for the sake of upgrading? If you must why not just give him access to an HK or a PW.

Death Jester's cannon is a power weapon simply because he isn't chosen very often. You sacrifice most of his melee ability for a ranged ability which isn't all that great and not too uncommonly sacrificed when running. Power Weapon Shrieker Cannon allows him to contribute a bit better in melee, and may encourage people to take this awesome model to the table.

Swooping Hawks
Haywire Blaster…Omg too OP. SHawks have always been anti troop harassers. I think you’d have a lot of people crying foul at a 24” Haywire gun.
Also the decision to not acknowledge Hawk’s Grenade Pack is a travesty fluff wise and mechanically.

Dark Eldar Scourges. 32 points for a model with identical stat and FOC as the proposed Hawk, although the Scourges can only take two-in-five with these weapons. I'm unfamiliar with Dark Eldar army lists, but I don't think this particular weapon is a favoured option since Heat Lance, Blaster or Dark Lance are all better options for the unit at only marginally more points, unless we're talking about damaging specifically Monoliths.

I never said dont make it a power weapon, i just think it should also be +1 strength.

Dragons' special rulecould be 'Intercept' as it is identical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, be careful calling the Hawks' rule 'Aerial Assault'- Dark eldar vehicles have a rule called that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Other than that, great work-I especilly like the idea for eldritch storm and the autarch strategems.

Wooly wrote:Alright, just something. I feel that the Farseer should have SOME kind of offensive psychic power. I'm not sure what it should be, yet, but I would just like to let them be something else than a force multiplier - while force multiplying would still be their main role.

I tried to move all the offensive powers to the warlocks to make them a little more desireable, If you have any suggestions though I'll be happy to take a look

Gwyidion wrote: I'm not sure if you meant to have scorpions be able to get to 14, or wraithguard to be a 4+warlock, with option for 5 more.

I also still think shining spears need more help - they need to be able to be more durable in the 2nd round of assault, and I think the shimmershield should be fluff'd to be a larger, bike mounted unit which gives 4++ in CC. They probably won't be operating near a farseer. If their lances are retconned to work like executioners, that would be pretty good.

I've amended Wraithguard, but I intended Scorps to have a max squad size of 15 (14 Scorps 1 Exarch), which is what it says
Changing the Shimmershield to being jetbike mounted would make DA's suffer. Just giving them to the SSpear Exarch in the same fasion as the DA Exarch would do the same thing though.
I thought we were intending the Spears to be uset to hit hard for a single turn, then either kill a MC or TEQ squad or hit and run away? In my mind, Shining Spears shouldn't be hanging around and getting bogged down in CC, so we didn't design them that way.

Saintspirit wrote:Something I'd add is that rangers/pathfinders stealth is not cumulative with Hoec's Less Than a Shadow.
Also, Wraithguards Extreme Strength should only work in close combat.

And I'm saying it for the third time: Star Lance should be an Exarch Weapon!

Otherwise I like it.

Saves can't be improved to any more than 2+, so it isn't really necessary to say it isn't cumulative. I'll ammend the warithguard bit though, we intended it to only be in CC, but I guess that isnt clear from the wording. Thanks.
D'you mean the star lance should be an exarch weapon for SSpears?

Tortoiseer wrote:Overall I think the dex is fantastic.
Some minor tweaks/questions

@The Avatar of Khaine: I don't see much of a change at all from the current version (which very well have been the consensus). I still think his offensive capabilities should be enhanced. Compared to other CC geared MC's he is pretty meh, often outperformed by trygons or maybe even the new Talos. I would give him re rolls to hit at least, maybe even another attack, and I agree that EW is a good call.

@Farseer: I don't get runes of nullification. Why do we need another anti psyker rune when we already have a really good one (runes of warding). Giving him both seems like overkill

@scorpions: Especially considering the new stalker power (which is great) I think these guys need move through cover. Also am I correct in reading that we gave them another attack on their profile?

@Fire dragons: Y you no fleet? Since they are awesome in CC with melta bombs now I think this is a no brainer.

Also I take it from their disappearance from the dex, that War walkers and fire prisms are fine as is (with heavy weapon point tweaks of course)?

Avatar - Good catch, I meant to include EW, I'll make sure to add that in. Prefered enemy might be a decent idea though, seems to make some sense.
Farseer - Overkill is what I wanted Eldar are meant to be the most powerful psykers, so I wanted to give them real control over the lesser races psykers. If you have any other suggestions on ways to do it I'm all ears
Scorps - I put "Stats - as now +1 attack" I couldn't think of a better way of explaining it without re-writing the whole stat line (that I don't have at work) and just changing it to A2. Move through cover would make sense, I just didn't want to give them too many special rules, maybe we could drop one of the other ones?
Dragons - Another good catch, Fleet was meant to be in there!

DAaddict wrote:

Wooly wrote:

Tortoiseer wrote:

@scorpions: Especially considering the new stalker power (which is great) I think these guys need move through cover. Also am I correct in reading that we gave them another attack on their profile?

+1 to this. In the current Dex, Move Through Cover is an Exarch power. They should either get this as a standard ability, or it should be incorporated in one of the Exarch abilities.
However, it seems that SS will be universally hated by EVERYONE now.

I would agree they need move through cover.

There was a lot of discussion and I thought agreement on adding 1A to all the aspects and perhaps 1 WS. The idea being that they are at least the equivalent of every veteran marine who gets a base A2. The WS idea is more a concession to the T3 that all eldar suffer from. This gives them more survivability due to more lethality and less susceptibility to things like khorne berzerkers.

I was having trouble destinguishing the roles of Banshees and Scorpions if they all had base 2 attacks, so I just addedd it into the scorpions for now. I can't really see why any other of them would need 2 attacks to be able to do their job properly, and I just think they'd feel less specialized if most units have the ability to throw out that many attacks. I'm more than happy to be convinced otherwise though!

ZeroSamurai wrote:

Tortoiseer wrote:
@The Avatar of Khaine: I don't see much of a change at all from the current version (which very well have been the consensus). I still think his offensive capabilities should be enhanced. Compared to other CC geared MC's he is pretty meh, often outperformed by trygons or maybe even the new Talos. I would give him re rolls to hit at least, maybe even another attack, and I agree that EW is a good call.

Giving the Avatar something like Preferred Enemy against everything would make sense and give him the re-rolls, perhaps he could transfer it to nearby eldar like he does with Fearless.

I've just addedd Prefered Warriror into my draft for the second version. Giving Prefered Enemy, Fearless and Stubborn seems a bit much, but it does sort of make sense I guess. I'll leave it a bit and see what the general consensus is

Mahtamori wrote: @ Saintspirit: Wraithcannon is AP2, so a re-roll on a non-existant armour save is fine

@ Offensive Farseer ability: Mind War could effectively be made into a psychic shooting attack with the profile R24" S10* Ap1 Assault 1 Blast. * This power uses the affected models leadership value rather than toughness value. A model without a leadership value may not be harmed by this attack. Should a model be wounded by this ability, but have no wounds in their profile, the model is instead stunned and may not take any voluntary actions during it's next player turn.
No longer an assassination power, but it's more in line with other psychic powers and quite obviously a PSA. Aaaand it works against Dread-Librarians.

@PDF: Bloody excellent write-up, Gorechild! Stick more points in there and it's a functioning codex

Thanks
As far as an offensive Farseer power goes, maybe something pinning would be good? It would be offensive but still fit into the whole support role. I'll leave the rest of your post until later, just to save my sanity

seapheonix wrote:Love the move to mark III, though I haven't read all the way through it yet, I wanted to revisit the Avatar.

@avatar: What if there were two levels of avatar. The current one which would help lead you to take the avatar in smaller battles, affordable points, fairly powerful but not dominant. Then have another version, the greater avatar say and have him costing up around the 275-300 point range with comparable stats to make him a force comparable to a god of war. Thought of this because I thought I saw a picture of a Forgeworld avatar that was bigger then a wraithlord while my old style citadel avatar is smaller then the old style wraithlord.

I imagine the greater avatar would have stats perhaps similar to this?
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
10 5 7 8 5 8 5 10 2+

As well as his current abilities and some others?

Thanks
We did discuss making the Avatar comparable to a Keeper of Secrets from the Daemons codex. Personally I'm a fan of having a 250+ point Avatar, but I think we came to the conclusion that, at his current level, he is affordable in smaller games and still does his job rather well.

MightyGodzilla wrote:
Autarch
So where are the weapon options? I still think he should get some sort of Exarch bodyguard like Court of the Young King from Craftword Eldar.

Iyanna Arienal
Really needs to be able to turn Wraithguard and Wraithlords into troops choices in addition to their normal (Heavy/Elite) slots. Having WLs be heavy is such bunk IMO.

Hoec
Better seved as a squad upgrade like Sergeant Namaan or Lukas the Trickster. And what’s the deal with Silence? Our Rangers get to crack open Land Raiders and Monoliths now? Snipers should be snipers. Mentor of Guile is pretty cool though.

Autarch: I was running short of space, so just kept the wargear options basic. Off the top of my head I couldn't think of (or find in the old thread) a decent list, I' open to adding other stuff though
Iyanna: Coppy/Paste from fandex "Spiritseer of Iyanden - An army which includes Iyanna may take Wraithguard units as troop selections. In addition, while Iyanna is alive, no units with the “Wraith” special rule automatically pass their Wraithsight tests."
Hoec:We were trying to introduce a SC for each major craftworld, thats the reason we came up with Hoec. Silence (in the S8 single shot mode) would be no more powerful against armour than a vindicare. And for a HQ slot, its his only real trick.

MightyGodzilla wrote:
Defender Guardians
First the minimum troop size is all screwy. I don’t think that there’s a ten man squad in the game (Troops not Heavies) the runs with 2 heavy weapons. Also the idea of transporting 10 Guardians, 1 Warlock, and 2 HWPs in a Wave Serpent is too ridiculous. If you start the minimum squad size at 10 and give upgradability to 15 or 20 still give the players the ability to go MECH at a cost of not having 2 HWPs or a Support Platform or the ability to slog it out fleet style with a HWP or an SP.

As far as the support weapon (Vibro, D-Cannon, etc) you should probably tie this upgrade to a minimum troop size IE “If the 5 (or 10) extra Guardian are taken you may taken an additional HWP for a total of two. Optionally you may forego an additional HWP and replace the first for a Support Weapon”

Wraithguard
Unit size should be kept at 5 + Warlock.
Extreme Strength – I cannot buy into “Tall = armor rerolls” Rerolling armor saves is also a bit unprecedented. Maybe give them the rending USR instead.

Harlequin
Death Jester…why is his heavy weapon suddenly a power weapon too? Are we just upgrading for the sake of upgrading? If you must why not just give him access to an HK or a PW.

Swooping Hawks
Haywire Blaster…Omg too OP. SHawks have always been anti troop harassers. I think you’d have a lot of people crying foul at a 24” Haywire gun.
Also the decision to not acknowledge Hawk’s Grenade Pack is a travesty fluff wise and mechanically.


Great Fandex

-MightyG

Guardians: We were keeping the squad cap down on guardians to prevent payers from taking hordes of them. Currently they really aren't worth their points, and improving them so they do justify their point cost brings them into conflict with Dire Avengers. We went through this for pages and pages in both of the previous threads, and this is the best way about it that we came up with.
Wraithguard: It not so much that they are just tall, they are prety much half way between infantry and MC's. As there aren't and Monsterous Infantry rules in 40k, this sort of special rule is the best we could come up with. If you see them in things like DoW2, they aren't just normal infantry, they are uber powerful.
Harlequins this entry was a last inute entry that Mahtamori put forward when I was finishing the fandex, they are a real work in progress. Feel free to give any suggestions
Swooping Hawks: We discussed hawks for literally months to come up with this entry. Their issue is that they dont really do anything that well at the mmoment so have no focus. We've redefined them to give them a unique role that would remove some of the armies dependance on Fire Dragons and free up more elite slots for competitive armies. I know it isn't really right going by their existing fluff, but it makes them a viable unit and allows a lot more freedom to take other units. They are fairly similar to DE scourges this way, so they can't be that over powered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

spookman wrote:also, be careful calling the Hawks' rule 'Aerial Assault'- Dark eldar vehicles have a rule called that.

That where I remember it from! I just got it off the top of my head when writing it up, I knew it sounded familiar

Once again, We're open to suggestions for changes

The_Solitaire wrote:I never said dont make it a power weapon, i just think it should also be +1 strength.

I know, I was editing it for "clarity"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Farseer wargear
Rune of Force.
Version 1 "At any point in which the two basic dice rolled for the psychic test are doubles, the psychic power may not be cancelled or hindered by any external influences, though the Farseer may still suffer the consequences of perils in the warp as normal."
Version 2 "The Farseer may opt to burn the Rune of Force instead of making a leadership test for the psychic power. The rune may not be used again, and the psychic power is an automatic success which may not be cancelled or hindered by any external influences."

This means a piece of wargear which has the potential of countering psychic hoods, ignore Shadows in the Warp, and even force a psychic power to affect a model normally immune to psychic powers.
Neither version is a 100% safety 100% of the time. One of them provides a 1 out of 6 chance and the other 1 psychic power per game. In terms of frequency, the chance version crops up with similar frequency as the one-use without Spirit Stones and four times as often with a Spirit Stone. However, the one-use version ensures that you can pick the correct moment, since the chance based can very well not activate at a time where you'd need it.

Should be noted that the chance based rune makes a Farseer 1/36 more likely to succeed with the psychic test as well, since a double 6 would succeed...

D'you mean the star lance should be an exarch weapon for SSpears?

Thats right, just the name. I don't care really whet the usual SS weapon should be called, but the exarch weapon should be called star lance. I think laser lance if fine for the usual weapon.

^
Being very estetically pedantic.

[quote=GorechildI was having trouble destinguishing the roles of Banshees and Scorpions if they all had base 2 attacks, so I just addedd it into the scorpions for now. I can't really see why any other of them would need 2 attacks to be able to do their job properly, and I just think they'd feel less specialized if most units have the ability to throw out that many attacks. I'm more than happy to be convinced otherwise though!

:

What if we gave the Farseer an offensive psychic power that revolved around opening a gateway to the Warp?
I mean, the Wraithcannons and D-Cannons already open gateways to hell, why not give the Farseer something like this?
One version of it could be like a different kind of Mind War where the Farseer sniped a model and the model would then have to make a leadership test (at a penalty mayhaps) to avoid getting eaten by daemons.
Another version could be giving it a blast template. Any model beneath it makes a leadership test or instant dies.
A third way to do it could be to mix the Farseer's support capabilities with aggressive force, opening a portal through the warp that the Farseer in question could move his unit through, like a big and more risky version of the Warp Spider teleport. Of course it should either be so risky you'd only do it once, get more risky after the first use or only have a limited range.

Your thoughts on this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DAaddict wrote:[quote=GorechildI was having trouble destinguishing the roles of Banshees and Scorpions if they all had base 2 attacks, so I just addedd it into the scorpions for now. I can't really see why any other of them would need 2 attacks to be able to do their job properly, and I just think they'd feel less specialized if most units have the ability to throw out that many attacks. I'm more than happy to be convinced otherwise though!

:

Alright A2 for scorps means 5 A on the charge. If you don't give it to all aspects that is fine but I would argue you will make Banshees the poor sisters as they would be A3 at S3.

Go through 10 of given aspect attacking:

Scorps WS5 50 attacks 33 hits 17 wounds 6 dead marines or 15 dead orks.
WS4 50 attacks 25 hits 12 wounds 4 dead marines or 10 dead orks.

HB WS5 30 attacks 20 hits 7 dead marines or 7 dead orks. With 2 base attacks 40 a 27 hits 9 dead marines or 9 dead orks
WS4 30 attacks 15 hits 5 dead marines or 5 dead orks. 40 a 20 hits 7 dead marines or 7 dead orks

Without the +1 A for HB they are almost flatline with Scorps so they have limited value when you take into account that the scorps also pack a 3+ save meaning they are more survivable.

To add +1 A to the other aspects is secondary. While it may help DA combined with defend, it is not going to make them world beaters. The numbers of the other aspects are limited so pulling the bonus attacks is not going to make a difference. I think it makes it very easy when you consider aspects as the same base choice.

CC Aspect WS 5 BS 4 I 5 A2 W1 T3 Ld 9 Scorp & HB & Shining Spear
General Aspect WS 4 BS 4 I5 A2 W1 T3 Ld 9 Hawk, Spider, DA
Firing Aspect WS4 BS5 I5 A2 W1 T3 Ld9 Fire Dragon, Dark Reaper
Exarch WS5 BS5 I6 A2 W1 T3 Ld 10

Mahtamori wrote:Warlock
These, surprisingly, only have LD8. Should have LD9. Mind War is going to be useless at LD8, but appropriate for a Warlock power at LD9 in addition to following the style of unit Sarge' providing +1LD to squad.
Also, have we scrapped the Warlock council? Can the Farseer take these as retinue?

I've upped it to Ld 9, I forgot they are 8 atm.
I was thinking of leaving the seer council out for normal seers, they are too deathstar-y if we want to make Warlocks more powerful individually as unit leaders. It still leaves the option for having a seer council if you take the Ulthwe council though. I thought this would kill 2 birds with 1 stone; stopping Eldrad appearing in every single army list, whilst removing the deathstar unit. The seer council of Ulthwe can't take jetbikes, so would provide a decent (but not insane) fluffy HQ that exemplifies Ulthwe (or your own flavour of pro-farseer craftworld).

Saintspirit wrote:

D'you mean the star lance should be an exarch weapon for SSpears?

Thats right, just the name. I don't care really whet the usual SS weapon should be called, but the exarch weapon should be called star lance. I think laser lance if fine for the usual weapon.

^
Being very estetically pedantic.

I've changed that in my V2 draft just for you

There are a few things that we still really need to think about: Biel Tan special character. Pheonix lords special power and wargear (I'm going for the exarch upgrade for the time being), final tweaks to the Avatar and the Autarch Wargear.

I'm going on holiday on Saturday so won't be able to post for a week (being why I rushed to get this 1st version up), so If we can start trying to sort some of the HQ issues out now I can have stuff to think over whilst I'm sat in the sun, and I'll go through all the posts I've missed when I get back. Once we have all the HQ sorted out 100% I'll post the second version of the dex.

I like the idea of a Court of the Young King for the Biel Tan SC, but that might be purely due to the fact that it's the only idea that keeps coming up

Alright perhaps with FC. I just like the idea of all aspect warriors getting base A2. I mean sterngard vets get 2 and they are the shooty oriented SM veterans. I think it should be a base right that all CC aspect warriors at least get 2 attacks base.

DAaddict wrote:Alright perhaps with FC. I just like the idea of all aspect warriors getting base A2. I mean sterngard vets get 2 and they are the shooty oriented SM veterans. I think it should be a base right that all CC aspect warriors at least get 2 attacks base.

While it sounds alright, I would still say FC serves HB to all intends and purposes. Besides, I did some mathhammering on what was wisest, A2 or FC for HB. I suppose, I'll just repost it (Slightly editted due to the change in Mirror Swords):

Howling Banshees and an Exarch w/ Executioner (Furious Charge)
3 Exarch Attacks, 2 hits
27 Banshee attacks, 13 ½ hits
2 exarch hits at S6 = 1 2/3 wounds
13 ½ Banshee hits at S4 = 6 ¾ wounds
In total: 8 5/12 W

Howling Banshees and an Exarch w/ Executioner (A2 base)
4 Exarch Attacks, 2 2/3 hits
36 Banshee attacks, 18 hits
2 2/3 Exarch hits at S5 = 1 7/9 wounds
18 Banshee hits at S3 = 6 wounds
In total: 7 7/9 W

Howling Banshees and an exarch w/ Mirror Swords (Furious Charge)
4 Exarch attacks, 3 5/9 hits (8/9 hits from re-rolls)
27 Banshee attacks, 13 ½ hits
3 5/9 exarch hits at S4 = 1 14/18 wounds
13 ½ Banshee hits at S4 = 6 ¾ wounds
In total: 8 7/18 W

Howling Banshees and an exarch w/ Mirror Swords (A2 base)
5 exarch attacks, 4 4/9 hits (1 1/9 hits from re-rolls)
36 Banshee attacks, 18 hits
4 4/9 exarch hits at S3 = 1 13/27 wounds
18 Banshee hits at S3 = 6 wounds
In total: 7 13/27 W


This is all assuming your opponent is marines, of course. Also, like then I apologise if the fractions look chaotic, but they are a lot more accurate than percentages (1/3, my point is proven).

Gorechild wrote:

Saintspirit wrote:

D'you mean the star lance should be an exarch weapon for SSpears?

Thats right, just the name. I don't care really whet the usual SS weapon should be called, but the exarch weapon should be called star lance. I think laser lance if fine for the usual weapon.

^
Being very estetically pedantic.

I've changed that in my V2 draft just for you

Yay

Gorechild wrote:There are a few things that we still really need to think about: Biel Tan special character. Pheonix lords special power and wargear (I'm going for the exarch upgrade for the time being), final tweaks to the Avatar and the Autarch Wargear.

I'm going on holiday on Saturday so won't be able to post for a week (being why I rushed to get this 1st version up), so If we can start trying to sort some of the HQ issues out now I can have stuff to think over whilst I'm sat in the sun, and I'll go through all the posts I've missed when I get back. Once we have all the HQ sorted out 100% I'll post the second version of the dex.

I like the idea of a Court of the Young King for the Biel Tan SC, but that might be purely due to the fact that it's the only idea that keeps coming up

I came up with an idea for a special Bieltan autarch earlier, looked like this if you remember:

Reqhiel, Autarch of Biel-Tan - 175.
WS7 BS7 S3 T3 W3 I6 A4 Ld10 Sv3+
Unit type: Infantry
Wargear: Force Shield (4+ Invulnerable Save), Plasma Grenades, Banshee mask, Fusion Gun, Fusion Pistol (perhaps), Sword of Bahzhakain
Sword of Bahzhakain: This sword is said to have been a gift from Khaine, appearing in front of the Avatar of Khaine when Biel-Tan left the Eldar homeworlds. It fills the wielder with such rage that he appears to be possessed by the God of War. It is a power weapon which grants the wielder +D6 attacks - roll at the beginning of each round of combat - and the Furious Charge special rule.
Special Rules: Fleet of Foot, Independent Character, Master Strategist

...and then some special rule (like, being able to make one aspect squad scoring).

In any case, I feel the Biel-Tan SC should be an autarch.

With 2 basic attacks, you get the following situation on a charge:

Banshees.
MEQ: 4 attacks, of which 2 hit, of which one wound, of which one kills.
GEQ: 4 attacks, of which 2.67 hit, of which 1,33 wound, of which 1,33 kills.

Scorpions.
MEQ: 5 attacks, of which 2,5 hit, of which 1,67 wound, of which 0,56 kills.
GEQ: 5 attacks, of which 3,33 hit, of which 2,22 wound, of which 1,48 kills

Harlequins.
MEQ: 4 attacks, of which 2 hit and 0,67 rends, of which 0,67 wounds, for a total of 0,89 kills.
GEQ: 4 attacks, of which 2 hit and 0,67 rends, of which 1 wounds, for a total of 1,33 kills.

In other words, while Banshees would be twice as good at killing MEQ as Scorpions and Harlequins being 50% better than Scorpions, the difference in killing potential against GEQ is negligible.
Thus, the balance between the three is eschewed. Banshees would be the supreme aspect for melee, with Scorpions niching in at infiltration. Harlequins wouldn't be taken at all.
Adding FC to Banshees in this situation would mean that the specialization of Scorpions being anti-GEQ have to be completely abandoned, and the question needs to be asked "is a melee infiltrator sufficient?"

Wooly wrote:

DAaddict wrote:Alright perhaps with FC. I just like the idea of all aspect warriors getting base A2. I mean sterngard vets get 2 and they are the shooty oriented SM veterans. I think it should be a base right that all CC aspect warriors at least get 2 attacks base.

While it sounds alright, I would still say FC serves HB to all intends and purposes. Besides, I did some mathhammering on what was wisest, A2 or FC for HB. I suppose, I'll just repost it (Slightly editted due to the change in Mirror Swords):

Howling Banshees and an Exarch w/ Executioner (Furious Charge)
3 Exarch Attacks, 2 hits
27 Banshee attacks, 13 ½ hits
2 exarch hits at S6 = 1 2/3 wounds
13 ½ Banshee hits at S4 = 6 ¾ wounds
In total: 8 5/12 W

Howling Banshees and an Exarch w/ Executioner (A2 base)
4 Exarch Attacks, 2 2/3 hits
36 Banshee attacks, 18 hits
2 2/3 Exarch hits at S5 = 1 7/9 wounds
18 Banshee hits at S3 = 6 wounds
In total: 7 7/9 W

Howling Banshees and an exarch w/ Mirror Swords (Furious Charge)
4 Exarch attacks, 3 5/9 hits (8/9 hits from re-rolls)
27 Banshee attacks, 13 ½ hits
3 5/9 exarch hits at S4 = 1 14/18 wounds
13 ½ Banshee hits at S4 = 6 ¾ wounds
In total: 8 7/18 W

Howling Banshees and an exarch w/ Mirror Swords (A2 base)
5 exarch attacks, 4 4/9 hits (1 1/9 hits from re-rolls)
36 Banshee attacks, 18 hits
4 4/9 exarch hits at S3 = 1 13/27 wounds
18 Banshee hits at S3 = 6 wounds
In total: 7 13/27 W


This is all assuming your opponent is marines, of course. Also, like then I apologise if the fractions look chaotic, but they are a lot more accurate than percentages (1/3, my point is proven).

The problem with this is that you're only looking at it on the first turn of combat, obviously FC is going to be more effective on the turn they charge. It really falls down on subsequent turns, but as I've said before, I think thats appropriate for Banshees; hit hard, hit fast, then get the hell out of there. Scorps should be the ones in long drawn out combats.

That would be my point too. As with Shining Spears.
S3 in itself is too heavily doom reliant to be any good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Except if you have the Seer Council HQ of course... the potential 7 psychic powers means that you can cast 4 Dooms a turn, which means that you won't be caring if you have S3, at least not as much.