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2012/06/21 11:17:34
Subject: 5th Edition Vs 6th Edition: An experiment to see just how much things change (Finished)
A week before 6th Edition dropped, me and a mate got together to have a final "farewell to 5th" battle. Before starting it was decided that we will have a rematch the week after 6th is released (giving us time to read everything through a couple of times) using the exact same board layout and identical armies, so we can see just how much has changed! With this in mind, we built army lists to incorporate as wide a variety of unit types as possible, focusing on some of the stuff that the rumour threads suggest might see big changes. Obviously the lists won't be super competitive due to the fact that we tried to cover all the bases, but I just thought it would be interesting to see a direct, side by side comparison. Hopefully you guys will enjoy! I've gone through and spoilered the first report simply to save space on the first post, and to hopefully keep things clear.
So this list includes infantry, jump infantry, some feel no pain, lots of 5/6+ armour, some rending, fast skimmers, open topped vehicles, a skimmer that may soon become a flyer, some large blasts, beasts and load of AP2 Lance weapons.
The second list ended up looking like this:
Chaos Space Marines 1500 points
Daemon Prince: warptime, wings
8 Plague Marines: rhino
10 Khorne Bezerkers: plasma pistol, rhino
5 Terminators: 2 fists, combi-flamer, combi-melta, heavy flamer
Land Raider
Dread: Lascannon
3 Bikes: plasmagun, meltagun
3 Obliterators
This one provides a MC (and psyker), more FNP, furious charge, some 2+ armour, some flamers and melta's, some AV14, some normal transports, a walker, some bikes and some deep striking.
Table set up
Spoiler:
Right! so this is the board will be laid out for both of the two reports. We classed the rivers as difficult and dangerous terrain, the pieces of paper are roads (that I think we completely forgot to use the extra movement bonus for), everything else should be pretty self explanatory
Deployment So now we've seen the board. onto the start of the battle! We rolled and got "Spearhead" for the deployment type and the mission was kill points. I got "Painbringer" as my combat drug this time, the one that allows me to re-roll all fails to wound, IMO the most helpful result.
Chaos won the roll for to deploy first and picked a corner where they could hide from the opening barrage of Dark Lances. Keeping the Dread at a safe distance in case he decides to go insane
In reply I set up as follows....
With everything now set up, it was time to rock and roll!
First thing's first, we had to make sure the Dreadnought would behave himself. My mate rolled a 4 so thankfully he was able to actually do what he wanted with him this turn! The Land Raider starts by rolling around the corner and popping smoke. Everything else; the two rhinos, the Daemon Prince and the bike squad move 12" but stay hidden behind both the Land Raider and the big central building
The Dread marched up towards the bridge giving him a nice view of the left hand side of my DE. In the shooting phase nothing really happened, the LR had popped smoke, the rhino's had moved to fast and the bikes and DP couldn't draw LOS to anything (even if they could they were almost certainly out of range too!). The Dread did get to take a shot at the rightmost Ravager shown in the pic below, which would have penetrated, had it not been for my trusty flickerfields!
That concluded what turned out to be an extremely swift 1st turn for the Chaos Space Marines!
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Dark Eldar Turn 1
In the movement phase I decide to split my force up, sending two Ravagers around to deal with the Dreadnought, just to ensure I didn't end up being attacked from two sides. All of my other vehicles shimmy over to get a clear LOS on the Land Raider, whilst the beasts edge forward and the hellions jump up onto the balcony of the building. The hellions have to take a dangerous terrain test, but thankfully only one of the ten man unit was incompetent enough to kill himself by flying into the wall.
The two Ravagers that I left to take care of the Dread managed to land 4 hits, 2 of them did nothing at all, but fortunately for me the other 2 both penetrated the AV12. The first result was shaken, but the second was wrecked. Job done! on that side of the board anyway!
Over on the other side, my 4 Dark Lances (1 from each Raider and 2 from the Razorwing) score 3 hits, resulting in a single glance and another penetrate. When rolling on the vehicle damage chart I got two threes, as one was a glance that meant one weapon destroyed (I chose the left hand TL-Lascannon) and a shaken result.
At the end of turn 1 that meant I had just taken the lead, 1 kill point to 0.
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Chaos Space Marines Turn 2
Much like last turn, all of the vehicles shoot forward 12", the Terminators spilling out ready to unleash chaosy death on my beast squad. The bikes just bring up the rear, still unable to get a decent line of sight. The Daemon Prince successfully casts Warptime before flapping his way up onto the roof.
In shooting, The terminators combi-flamer gets 6 hits, the Heavy flamer scores another 6 and the remaining bolters get 2 more. All of these boil down to 11 wounds, killing 1 Khymera, 1 Beastmaster and 1 Razorwing flock (leaving a second on a single wound).
On to the assault phase now, the Terminators charge into the beast squad and up on the roof top, the Daemon Prince assaults the Baron and his squad of hellions. In the beast's combat I got to strike first, bringing down two of the Terminators (1 from a rending attack by the birds and the other from the 7 additional wounds caused by the rest of the unit). In reply, the two power weapon Terminators bring down a Khymera and one of the two remaining Beastmasters. The surviving power fist causes 3 wounds, at this point I realise I've screwed up my wound allocation, and to avoid putting wounds on a razorwing flock (that would give me a further -5 in combat resolution and a near impossible Ld test) I have to take my chances, killing off the final Beastmaster and two Khymera. Having lost the combat by 3 and with a masterless unit of beasts, things aren't looking good. To make matters worse I roll a 12 for my leadership followed and get cut down as they try to flee.
Up on the roof the Deamon prince inflicts 4 wounds, killing 3 Hellions but the 4th bounces off the Baron's shadow field. The Baron does nothing when attacking back, but thanks to combat drugs the unit get 4 wounds through. Sadly these all bounce off the DP's armour. They remain locked in combat.
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Dark Eldar Turn 2
In the movement phase I simply edge everyone backwards 12" to give me enough breathing space to allow for another turn of shooting.
I fire a single Raider at the Plague Marines rhino (the blue one that looks suspiciously like an Ultramarines rhino ) and I managed to shake it, keeping them out of the action for another turn. Everything else lays into the Land Raider and after a very mediocre round I immobilize and shake it . This is followed by another uninspiring assault phase on my part. The Baron and his squad do nothing, and the Daemon Prince kills two. I pass Ld and we remain locked in combat again.
So at the end of turn 2 my Dark Eldar are on 1 kill point, the Chaos force have caught up to level the score at 1:1.
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Chaos Space Marines Turn 3
I lost track of things during this turn and forgot to take pictures until the very end. Hopefully my notes will be enough to give you an idea of what went on though
The Daemon Prince starts by successfully casting Warptime again. The bikes and the Bezerkers rhino (the black spiky one) passes the dangerous terrain test for trying to move over the barrier and the bikes follow around whilst the Terminators plod forward towards the wall of Raiders.
In shooting, thanks to all of the shaken results last turn, only the Terminators can shoot. The combi-melta shot hits but somehow fails to glance the AV10, the bolter fire fails to do anything either.
In combat, the Daemon Prince kills another 2 Hellions, The Baron is saved yet again by his shadow field, he then manages to cause a single wound before I fail my Ld test and get cut down! The Prince consolidates down onto the balcony.
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Dark Eldar Turn 3
I move everyone forward slightly in the movement phase, and one of my Wych units gets out in front of the Terminators that are now dangerously close to my skimmers. My Haemonculus' liquifier ends up being AP4, and does little to bother the Terminators, the wyches fire their splinter pistols but they fail to achieve anything either! The Razorwing fires his Dark Lances at the blue rhino, stunning it, but I concentrate the rest of my AP2 on the Daemon Prince, managing to kill him off with my final Dark Lance.
The Wyches Then charge the short distance into the Terminator squad. My Hekatrix, who normally is comically unreliable manages to slay two with her agoniser, the rest of the unit score 4 wounds, and my friend roll's a single 1, finishing the squad off. The wyches then consolidate 3", just enough the get most of them behind some cover.
So that brings us to the end of the 3rd turn. I'd managed to restore my lead, leaving the score at Dark Eldar 3 - Chaos 2
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Chaos Space Marines Turn 4
Finally the Obliterators arrive from reserve. Thanks to the fact that they appeared so late in the day my mate had to be bold with his deep striking, but luckily for him they didn't scatter and appeared directly in front of my Wyches. Elsewhere, the Bezerkers rhino manages to immobilize itself when attempting to cross a barricade. Seconds later, one of the bikers also dies when attempting to cross the same barrier After that awful luck, the Bezerkers climb out of their beached transport and run forward an additional 3". The Plague Marines also disembark.
The Plague Marines unload their bolters into my Wych squad, 5 shots get past the cover and of those, only 2 get past FNP. The Bikers finally get a chance to fire, shooting into the Wych squad as well, this time killing 1. Then, the Oblit's crack out their heavy flamers. Long story short, they wipe the squad.
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Dark Eldar Turn 4
I have little to do in my movement phase, everything is pretty much out of assault range, so I shuffle about a bit to make sure I've got clear LOS with everything and get stuck into the shooting phase.
Finally having something to shoot at, I let all 4 of my missiles fly into the Bezerker's. There are 3 direct hits, but the 4th scatters so wildly that it disappears of the edge of the board. The way I place the big blast conveniently covers both the bikes as well as the vast majority of the Bezerker unit. When the dust settles, both bikers are dead, along with 6 of the Bezerkers.
Next I fire a Ravager and a Raider onto the Obliterators, of the 4 shots, 2 hit. Both of those wound and ID 2 of the 3. The last squad member is mown down by the splinter cannons of my Venom.
It may seem like over kill, but to make sure I nab one more kill point I unleash a Ravager and a Raider to mop up the remaining Khorne Bezerkers.
With nothing to assault again, turn 4 comes to an end. For the first time my DE have a tiny bit of breathing space, with the kill point totals at 6-3
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Chaos Space Marines Turn 5
With the possibility of the dame drawing to a close soon, and a fairly considerable kill points deficit my mate say's he's just going to throw everything he could forward and hope for some lucky wrecks. This time the Rhino manages to crash on through the barricade, moving as fast as possible in a direction that I can only assume would be to line up for a ram next turn. The plague marines just march around the corner to see if they can get lucky glancing a venom to death.
Things start positively, after not being able to do anything for what felt like a pretty considerable time Mr Land Raider gets to shoot with his one remaining lascannon (and heavy bolter, but that did nothing ) The lascannon hits second time around, thanks to twin-linked, and penetrates with ease. Flicker fields fail me this time and one of the Raiders (the only vehicle that wouldn't have got a cover save) is wrecked. The PM's then try to hold up their end of the bargain, scoring two glances. Both of those got through the FF's and they destroyed a splinter cannon and shook the Venom.
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Dark Eldar Turn 5
In an effort to avoid that pesky lascannon I bunch all my vehicles (with the exception of the RWing that hid on the side of the LR that had its cannon destroyed early on) hide round the corner.
My plan here was to ensure I could bring down the plague marines. They're the only unit left that really has a hope of bringing down one of my skimmers, considering it would be a simple task to dance around the Land Raider, and that I'm faster than the kamakazi Rhino driver.
With that in mind I fire my first Ravager at the Plague Marines, he gets full marks, bringing down 3 Plague's with his trio of dark light shots. The Venom also gets past 3 armour saves, but this time the squad can take their FNP, bringing the casualty number down to 1. After almost a whole game of forgetting I had a blaster-warrior riding shotgun, he pops out to melt a 5th marine. My Razorwing fluffs both Darklight shots, but luckily kills yet another with the splinter weapon. By this stage my opponents squad is down to two models, I was hoping that my second Ravager could match the performance of the first one, but he only kills one. This left me with one lone PM to kill and a single Raider to fire. He just hits (rolling a 3) and just wounds (rolling a 2). With no cover, 3+ armour and no FNP my final shot killed him off
That brings the total to Dark Eldar 7- Chaos 4. We roll to see if we play on, and get a 1, game over, and a win for the evil elves!
Conclusion- 5th Edition Battle Report
Spoiler:
Dark Eldar Wyches: They made short work of the Terminators, but are really dependant on both having cover and their FNP out of combat. If all of the 6th ed rumours I've been reading are right, I think it will be even more important that Wyches try and never get caught in the open. Their FNP is never really needed against low AP shots, but purely to help reduce the volume of wounds they take from las/bolter fire. So for Wyches at least I think the change from 4+ only on AP3+ to a straight 5+ is a negative one.
Haemonculus:Did what they always do, provide a cheap pain token for very little point cost. The only thing that I could see making a major difference to these guys is the whole "challenges" thing. Haemy's are pretty poor in combat so I guess that refusing a challenge isn't a big loss to the units effectiveness though. Otherwise I may have to experiment withsome different load-outs to make them half competant fighters
Warriors:They didn't really see much action, but as far as I can see the change shoud be kind to the Kabalites. Their only real use in my list is to provide another venom, hold an objective and fire a blaster. None of these things will be effected as far as I can see, they just get the little perk of the 4 other guys having the option to fire 24" after moving.
Raider:Depending on how this "Jink" rule pan's out, and how common hydra's and things like that become. It may be possible to do away with the Flickerfields that are pretty much mandatory at the moment. Anything that effectively makes most DE vehicles 10 points cheaper can only be a good change though. I really dont know how skimmers will fare overall though, they might be getting a lot harder to hit, but I cant see them getting many HP's, and we all know about how fragile Raiders were to start with!
Venom: As the flickerfield is already built into the base cost of the Venom, the "Jink" rule may be less of a benefit over all to these. That said, as long as they're still cheap, still fast and still able to shoot 12 shots a turn I can't see them going anywhere any time soon!
Ravager: I'm probably more concerned for Ravagers than any other unit at the moment. They're easy to bring down but their big selling point up to now has been the fact that they are 30-40 points cheaper than a Razorwing. If flyers are going to become so much better than open-topped skimmers then I see those 40 points becoming much less of an issue.
Razorwing: This game, for the first time in aaaaaages, my Razorwing didn't die. The big flight stand and lack of cover made the really vulnerable, but hopefully that will change The rumours seem to finally justify the extra cost and difficulty getting cover saves finally, so I'm certain things will only improve for my Razorwing over the next few weeks. I think their movement limitations (only being able to turn 90 degrees and having a minimum movement distance ect) might make them interesting to get to grips with, but we will have to wait and see.
Hellions: These guys really werent very helpful this game, they got tangled up in combat before being able to do much and once there they failed to achieve much. Hopefully things will change, we'll have to wait and see.
Baron Sathonyx: see hellions
Beasts: These guys are normally my favorite DE unit, they are a real pain in the ass to kill off, its just seems that they had an off day today! I was worrying a lot about these guy until I saw the rumour that they may be able to completely ignore difficult terrain. If this is true I'll probably be able to completely drop Baron Sathonyx from my usual list.
Chaos Space Marines Daemon Prince: I've gone off Daemon Princes recently, thery used to be a pretty decent beat stick, but with all of the new codecies I've seen them get repeatedly outclassed. Hopefully the new psyker powers and the flying MC changes can make them interesting, I can imagine Vector strike being handy for bringing down Raiders if you can do it against vehicles
Khorne Bezerkers:Failed pretty epicly this game. I know they struggle not being able to assault from a moving transport, and I don't know if that is being addressed in 6th. I'd be curious to see if there is any change to furious charge, but other than that I dont think there is much that a core rulebook can do for these guys, they're more in need of a codex update.
Plague Marines: Like the Wyches, the FNP changes will probably be a huge factor for these dudes. At least their FNP will be safe when it comes to plasma weapons, but anything S8 wil stilll pose problems, stupid T4(5)!
Rhino: These look as though they will get hit rather hard to me. Not in a way that will make them useless, but I think the whole "go mech or go home" MEQ attitude will dissapear as other ideas, in comparrison, become more viable.
Bikes:They didn't realy achieve much this game, getting stuck behing the transports (to avoid the risk of getting munched by the dread) meant they couldn't really shoot much, point restrictions meant we had to use a small squad and that their movement was hindered by terrain. Hopefully they'll have better luck next time.
Land Raider: This guy did his primary job well, getting the termies up safely. After that it struggled to do anything thanks to being repeatedly shaken. I think the changes with HP's and the ability to move and still use al their guns will be crucial to getting these big expensive vehicles back into more lists.
Terminators: I think terminators will be another big winner from the new edition, with most power weapons suposedly being AP3 (and I assume rending wil be AP3 too) they may become a real problem.
Obliterators:Apparently Deep striking and Relentless will be getting minor changes, so that may effect these guys a bit. They turned up late to the party this time so couldn't do that much this game. Hopefully they will get to have a bigger impact next time.
Dreadnought: This guy failed hard. If the HP's can help prevent theis sort of 1 shot kill in the future then it might make them a litte more interesting.
Report 2 - 6th Edition
On Thursday we got time to go through and have our re-match, It was my second game of 6th (my friends 1st!). I know we made at least 3 mistakes (I'll point them out in the rep), but if you catch any more it would be helpful if you could point them out!
Thanks to the new rules for terrain, we made minor adjustments to a few of the pieces on the board. The river became mysterious, and the big centre building became now had a capacity of 20 models, with two separate battlements (roof and balcony).
Rather than rolling for deployment and the mission we decided to pick, so we could ensure this battle was a similar as possible to the 5th ed report. Now that spearhead has been removed, we went for the "Vanguard Strike" deployment and the "Purge the Alien" mission. I won the roll to deploy first (picking the same corner as in the last game), and I got +1 attack for my combat drugs. The FAQ say's that C:CSM Daemon Princes aren't classed as Flying MC's (which kind of screwed up out plan of including all these different unit types ), but he exchanged Warptime for "Terrify", the Telepathy psychic power. Both Warlords (DP and Baron) rolled on the Personal power chart and both got "Tenacity", the power that gives the warlord and his unit FNP if within 3" of an objective. As there are no objectives in this mission, it was utterly useless.
As this mission is basically just Kill points, my Wrack squad is a complete liability again, so I just keep them back in a ruin to try and keep them out of harms way. I hide the Baron and his Hellions on the far side, behind a ruin and (as they are no longer slowed by terrain) I put the beast unit right behind the barricade. All the vehicles just hang around in the centre of my deployment zone.
Again, the Dread had to strike out on his own, just in case he goes berserk. The Daemon and the LR squeeze in on the outer side of the riverbank, the Rhino's hold the bridge, with the bikes up front (so they'd actually get a chance to shoot this game ). The Obliterators start in reserve.
Once we were all deployed, my mate attempted to steal the initiative, but rolled a 3.
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Dark Eldar Turn 1
I started off by moving everything up 12". 2 Ravagers and 1 Raider move across to get a clear shot at the Dreadnought, The Baron shoots forward and everything else moves round to the right to take on the main bulk of the Chaos army.
Then I opened fire. (This is where we made the 1st mistake) I fire 2 Ravagers at the Dread, forgetting the DE special rule, I snap fired with one of the three Dark Lances. The first Rav misses with everything, the second one scored a single hit. It penetrated and I rolled a 3, with the +1 on the vehicle damage chart for the shot being AP2 It resulted in me destroying the Lascannon. Over on the other side, the Raider gets a glance on the Land Raider, reducing it to 3 Hull points. The Hellions run 3", but everything else misses or fails to do any damage
With nothing in assault range, that was the end of my 1st turn.
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Chaos Space Marines 1
Before he got moving, my mate tested to see if the Dread would go mad, again, luckily, he stayed in control. The Daemon Prince attempted to cast his power, which was successful. He targeted my beasts, who luckily passed their morale test, but would now has to treat any unit they charge as having the "Fear" USR for the duration of the next turn. With that out of the way, he started his movement. He first moved his Land Raider forward, over a crater which forced him to take a dangerous terrain test. Annoyingly for him he failed the test and immobilized the vehicle, as soon as that happened I noticed his enthusiasm for the game drop quite noticeably sadly, and he basically forgot about the LR for the most part from now on (this lead to probably the biggest error that was made in the game). Anyway, he soldiered on, moving everything up to the corner of the building, the Bezerkers disembarked as well, as you cant assault at all if you disembark from a closed-topped vehicle at all now, I think his logic was just to prevent them having to stand around in the open for a turn later on. This is where he has got to after his movement....
IN the shooting phase, thanks to me blowing the lascannon of the dread, he decided to run (3"). 2 of the Bezerkers were in range of the beast squad with their bolt pistols, both shots hit and one of them wounded the forward-most Khymaera, but the would was saved by its 4++. The bezerkers consider assaulting the beasts, but the risk of taking 6 poison shots, even at BS1) was apparently too great considering he'd need to roll 11"+ to get in.
So at the end of the first turn the score was still 0-0.
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Dark Eldar Turn 2
I start my second turn by rolling to see if my Razorwing arrived, sadly it didn't . Everything else moves up another 12" (except the hellions who just edge up to the near side of the river bank).
My first shot (one of the two Ravagers) managed to penetrate and explode the dread (thanks again to the +1 on the vehicle damage chart thanks to AP2). This bagged me the first victory point (kill point basically) and a bonus VP for the "First Blood" secondary objective. this left the other Ravager with nothing in front of him, so I had to fire just two guns (the one on the front and the right) all the way across the table to the LR. One of the shots penetrates, this resulted in a stunned (and knocking him down to 2 HP). The Raider over on the other side, takes a shot at the LR as well, but this one misses. Due to the fact that fleet no longer lets you assault after running, for the first time ever, I shoot with my beast masters. In celebration of this momentous occasion, they utterly fail, getting 0/6 hits...well done beasts, well done.
In an attempt to make up for their spectacular shooting phase, they attempt to charge. They only actually need 2" to get into assault, but I roll any way and get 7". This is where I start to notice how much these new allocation rules hurt these guys. I'd been sure to keep my Khymaera to the front during my charge across the board, just in case a stray lascannon attempted to instagib one of my precious 5 wound razorwing flocks, but this meant the Khy's had to eat all of the bolter fire (that I'd usually fob off onto the birds) from over watch. The 10 man 'Zerker unit rolled 3 hits from overwatch, two of which wounded. This killed of one of the dogs, which in the last edition would have still been up and running, and barely scratched on of the flocks. Thanks to the DP's psychic power, the beasts also have to take a fear test, which thankfully I pass. I attack first, killing a single bezerker with the Khymera, the flocks bring down one more thanks to a rending attack and even the masters get in on the action, killing off a 3rd bloke. In reply, the 'Zerkers lay down 9 wounds, 7 of which I fail. enough to bring down an entire flock, and putting a single wound on another one, and killing off another Khy. I lost by 4 and as a result I failed the leadership test. to make matters worse, just like last game, I fluff the initiative test and get cut down as I attempt to flee. Not good.
The marines then consolidate 6", getting them right up in my face, even before the start of their turn.
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Chaos Space Marines 2
With nobody in range this time, the Prince can't attempt to cast his power again. To make up for their poor effort in the 5th ed battle, the Obliterators make an early appearence. They try to DS right onto the balcony of the central building, which they achieve without scattering. Everyone else just marches on forward.
On to the shooting...The Land Raider shoots at my Raider (carrying the Wyches + Haemy), The heavy bolter scores a single glance and the Lascannon penetrates. Both shots get through my Flickerfields, reducing me to 1 Hull point, and the penetrating hit immobilises the skimmer. As it was already damaged, the bikes attempt to pick the Raider off, the plasma gun is in half range so gets two shots, one gets hot (doesn't harm the guy though) and the other glances. This stripped off my last HP and wrecked the vehicle. The bezerkers open fire on my Venom, The plasma penetrates (inflicting yet another immob) and the massed bolt pistol fire from the rest of the squad was enough to get another glance, wrecking the Venom. The newly arrived Oblits open fire with their multi-melta's, scoring a glance and a penetrate on the Ravager that is closest to them. He rolls a 3 on the vehicle damage chart, which results in the Ravager exploding (+1 for open topped, +2 for AP1 = 6). The 3" explosion hits all 5 of the Kabalite Warriors that had just disembarked from their wrecked venom, and 3 of them dies in the blast. the remaining 2 passed their Ld test though.
In the assault phase the Daemon Prince manages to get into combat with my wyches, thanks to his roll of 6" (I completely for got to overwatch here). The Bezerkers attempted to charge the remaining warriors (~8" away) but roll 4", I remembered to overwatch this time, but failed to do anything.
Back over at the DP/Wych fight, the Daemon Prince offers a challenge (mainly just so we could see how they worked), hoping to bring down my Haemy. I accept the challenge but instead send my Hekatrix forward. Thanks to having 9 other guys around I get 1 free re-roll (courtesy of the "Get 'Im Boss!" rule). Two of her attacks hit (which I upped to three with the re-roll), but only one of those was able to wound. Thankfully this got through the Daemons Inv save though. The DP then scored 3 wounds in reply, two of which I dodged with my 4++, but the final one slew my Hekatrix. Still, this meant the fight was drawn (1 wound apiece). So the combat continues.
So, at the end of turn 2 the Chaos Space Marines were just ahead, with the score currently sitting at 3-2.
Dark Eldar Turn 3
At the top of turn 3 my Razorwing Jetfighter turned up. I flew it 18" from my corner on a line with the near-right hand corner of the big central building, giving a good LOS to the bulk of the Chaos army. over on the far side of the board my Raider jumped over the river, the hellions broke from cover, heading towards the Obliterators and everything else just shuffled about to get a decent LOS. I must have taken this pic a little early, because I also moved my remaining Kabalites back to try and prevent me dropping another victory point.
In the shooting phase I made another little mistake, firing 3 of the Razorwing's missiles in a turn. Still, even with 3 large blasts I only managed to kill 4 Khorne Bezerkers. I then fire 1 Dark lance at full BS, and snap shot with the 1 remaining DL and the splinter, the combination of which is enough to wipe the unit. The Hellions then open fire with their spliter pods, laying down 6 wounds but they are all saved by the 2+ armour. Finally I shoot with my one remaining Ravage, getting two wounds on the Oblit squad, one gets past the cover save but the other inflicts instant death, knocking the unit down to two men.
With the shooting all wrapped up I move onto the assault phase. Thanks to the extra attack from my combat drugs, despite being S3 I still lay down 4 wounds on the Prince, and he fails two of the armour saves, after this, and the duel last turn the DP was only left him on a single wound. In reply he cuts down a single Wych (thanks to some epic 4++ saves by me). The Haemonculus struck last, getting a single hit and a single wound, which, somehow, killed the Daemon Prince! I dont think I can ever remember any of my Haemy's killing a single model to date, but thiis was one hell of a way to get started
With that extremely unlikely turn of events I'd achieved the "Slay the Warlord" secondary objective, effectively netting 2 VP for the price of 1.
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Chaos Space Marines 3
In an attempt to rob my wyches of their much needed cover saves, the bikes roll around the barricades. There isn't much more movement to do but the Rhino's around the corner just shuffle around a bit. The bikes shoot at the Wych squad, unfortunately loosing the plasma guy to a "gets hot" related incident, but they do still manage to bring down 3 of the squad. The LR's Lascannon was the only weapon in range of the Flyer (Heavy bolter was only about 1" out), but the twin-linked ensured that he hit, despite having to make snap shots. The shot easily penetrates the AV10, but a poor roll on the damage chart means that its only stunned (which for flyers means it is forced to go 18" straight forward in my next movement phase). To round things up, the Obliterators fire 2 plasma cannons into the blob of Hellions. Both shots scatter, one misses completely and the second only hits two guys but it does manage to kill both of them though!
In the assault phase my opponent comes to the conclusion that he's probably best off charging my wyches rather than hanging about and waiting for me to charge him (considering I now have Furious charge from my 2nd pain token). They get a 10" charge, which is waaaaay more than was needed, but better safe than sorry! The plan pays off, Wyches fail to kill either of the bikes and the bikers bring down 1 wych, nothing spectacular, but a damn sight better than getting charged and wiped next turn I pass the Ld test and we remain locked in close combat. Please excuse the paint job on the bike It was one of the first models I ever painted when I was probably about 8 years old!
So by the end of our 4th turn I'd managed to turn things around! The score was now: Dark Eldar 5 - Chaos 3
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Dark Eldar Turn 4
Thanks to the damage result I had no choice but to got 18" forward with the flyer. I continued to swoop around with my Raider that was over on the far side of the table, whilst the Baron and my Hellions jump up onto the battlements to confront the remaining Obliterators. Everything else just shuffles around to get LOS.
I go flat out with my Ravager (around to the front of the LR) and with my Raider (around behind the Rhino's) during the shooting phase. The remaining Warriors run back another 3", which is enough to get them to the safety of the ruins, back with my Wracks. After all that movement I did actually get to do some shooting in my shooting phase! The Hellions shot at the Oblits, 6 of the shots wounded, and one of those got through the 2+ armour, leaving one of the 2 guys on a single wound. Everything else that can trys to snap fire, but to no effect.
The Baron charges his Hellions into the Obliterators, who overwatch with twin-linked flamers. This results in 4 wounds, toasting the front hellion. The Baron takes the next 3 on his 2++ save and manages to save them all. In the assault The Baron brings down the guy that was on 1 wound (thanks to his +2 S on the charge). His unit inflict two wounds on the remaining Oblit, but both of these are saved by his armour. WHen it was his turn to strike back, the Oblit attempted to fist Baron Sathonyx, but again it was saved by his trusty 2++.
Back over in the biker combat I just manage to sneak a wound through to finish off the unit. They consolidate 6".
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Chaos Space Marines 4
Now there really wasn't very much on the table for my opponent to move, but once again he re-arranged the Rhinos and hopped out with the Plague Marines to unleash some bolter fire into my newly arrived Raider.
To open the shooting phase he fired all the Land Raider had at the Ravager that had just sped towards him. Thanks to my 4+ Jink save, he only causes 1 glance, biut that does leave me on a single hull point. The PM's then take their turn to shoot at the speedy skimmers, but these guys (despite needing 6's to glance and having to get through a 4+ cover save) manage to glance twice, also leaving this vehicle on 1 HP.
The only thing to happen in the assault phase was for the Baron and hellions to fail miserably, and for Sathonyx's 2++ to finally fail him, resulting in instant death and a secondary objective for slaying the warlord. The squad still passed their Ld check though, and remained in the fight.
So at the bottom of turn 4 the score was now Dark Eldar 6 - Chaos 5.
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Dark Eldar Turn 5
At the start of turn 5, the night fighting rules kicked in. Again, during the movement phase everything just moves forward. The Raider jumps the River to get behind the land raider, and the Ravager comes at it from the front. I move my Razorwing to line myself up to line break next turn, and still being able to fire another DL at the Land Raider if needed.
I shot both the Ravager and the Raider at the Land Raider, They hit with 1 shot each both of which glanced, stripping the tank of its final 2 Hull points and reducing it to a wreck. This was IMO the biggest mistake we made in the game, but we both forgot about the Terminators that were still holding up inside (I guess we both completely forgot about them when my mate got annoyed and the LR immobilizing itself in turn 1 and never came to disembark them afterwards). We both failed to realise this mistake until after the game when we were both packing up sadly.
In the assault phase my hellions finally clean up the remaining Obliterator, and my Wyches attempt to charge the black Rhino, I only roll a 6 on 2D6 though, and am left just short.
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Chaos Space Marines 5
With very little left on the board now this turn goes by pretty quickly. With no other option the Rhino attempts to ram my Ravager (Strength 6) but fails to glance. In shooting the PM's manage to bring down the Raider that they had softened up last turn though. The Wyches narrowly avoid falling into the river when they spill out of the wreck.
With the Plague Marines having rapid fired, and the distinct lack of terminators, no Chaos units are able to assault. This is their view at the end of turn 5
At the end of the 5th turn my DE are sitting on 8 victory points and the CSM's are now on 6. We roll to see if the game will be continuing, and it does, so here comes turn 6!
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Dark Eldar Turn 6
Being mindful that the game is drawing to a close, I turn and zoom my Razorwing into the Chaos deployment zone. As long as he's still there at the end of the game, that will be another VP for me. In other news, the Hellions jump up onto the second battlement (roof) of the big building and secure a commanding view of the Plague Marines below. My little unit of Wyches run up to try and ensure they will be able to assault the Rhino this turn. The bigger squad just heads towards the PM's, whilst the one remaining Ravager lines up shots on the blue Rhino.
The hellions manage to gun down 2 of the plague dudes in the shooting phase, and the Ravager scores two hits on their transport, somehow I fail to galnce with either shot though so the Rhino remains intact.
In the assault phase I was glad I got up so close with the little wych unit, I only rolled a 3 for my charge range, but luckily that still got me into combat with the Rhino. The other unit then charges into the Plague's, rolling a 5 for the charge range. They over watch and manage to (after a failed "Look Out Sir! (or should it be Madame?) test) kill off my Hekatrix, that I stupidly left hanging out at the front of the unit. Even with the casualty I manage to get the unit into base contact with the Marines. My wyches fail to kill anything and the PM's only get a single wound through my dodge save, and that is saved by my 5+ FNP. That combat was drawn so they stay locked in.
Back over by the Rhino, the Wyches hit with all 3 of their Haywire grenades, all of them glance too, the the transport is wrecked. getting me another VP. This shows how things stood at the end of my 6th turn.....
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Chaos Space Marines 6
With my friend only having 1 unengaged model left ( the blue Rhino), this turn only involved a single ramming move (this time at strength 5). This time it did glance the Ravager, but as I still had 2 Hull Points at the start of the turn, it failed to wreck me.
With nothing to shoot, we moved onto the combat. Again, neither side managed to inflict any damage on the other, so they stayed locked in combat.
This time the game does come to an end when we roll at the end of the turn, so I get the Line Breaker secondary objective, and my mate doesn't . So at the end of the game our scores were Dark Eldar 10 - Chaos 6; Another win for the Dark Eldar!
Conclusion
Spoiler:
First thing's first, I've really enjoyed all the games of 6th I've been able to play so far. I primarily play Dark Eldar and Khorne CSM/Daemons, both of which (according to the internet) now suck, but I haven't had any major trouble so far (won (this game) and drawn (against GoDzBuZzSaW) with DE and will be getting my first game in with my Chaos this afternoon). Granted these lists aren't competitive by any stretch of the imagination, but that wasn't really the point of this thread.
I'll start with what (IMO) are the bigger changes...The Razorwing now plays completely differently (obviously ). There seems to be a lot of talk about flyers being OP and impossible to kill (especially considering the real lack of any Skyfire weapons outside of taking terrain), but due to their movement restrictions they can have limited use. I imagine it would be very difficult using multiple flyers in one list without constantly getting in your own way or spending most of the time in reserve or facing a board edge with nothing to shoot at! They're good fun though, I'll definitely be re-working my 1500 DE list to replace a Ravager with one of these bad boys.
Hull points arent THAT bad, but I do see them causing a heck of a lot of trouble for Venom spam lists. 2HP instead of 3HP doesn't seem to be that big a difference, but I've found it to be the difference between getting gunned down in a single round of bolter fire and still being able to endure and escape. The new vehicle damage chart is taking a lot of getting used to, I've nearly immobilized myself on a roll of 4 a handful of times already (immob is now a 5), but I guess that's just a matter of getting used to it. We didn't see any melta action in this match, but in my reads through and a bit of practice I had playing around, the +2 on the chart seems to be brutal, the +1 for AP2 is a welcome little treat for my DE though!
It was a shame about the FAQ stopping CSM Princes into flying MC's, but I completely understand the reasoning behind it. I'll be playing a game with a Bloodthirster and 2 Chaos Daemon's DP's this afternoon to check those rules out. The new psychic powers are fun, but I cant see many occasions where you'd risk rolling on the charts rather than guaranteeing yourself a useful power from your own codex, but we'll have to see what happens in the real 6E codecies to see if that changes.
Overwatch doesn't seem to make all that much difference in the instances I've come across so far (but I wouldn't fancy charging wyches at Burna's, lootas or even a shoota boy mob any more!). It's more realistic and doesn't seem to make all that much difference (outside of extreme examples obviously), so I think its was a really good addition.
The wound allocation does take a bit of getting used to, but I think it's an improvement on 5th. I'm dreading fighting my mates tooled up nob unit because of all the "look out sir"-ing , but to be honest, they were a pain in the ass last edition too . As I mentioned in the report I think this change does hit complex units like my beasts quite hard though. I'll have to play around with them a bit more, but sadly that have to be one of the things I drop.
I'm loving the new terrain stuff though, I didn't venture into the mysterious river this game, but I like the way it add's something else for you to have to consider. I was watching a game on Saturday where a Dread was stripped of two HP whilst wandering through an evil forest, I'm sure a lot of people would whine about something like that, but I'm sure they'd have been more than happy if it had turned out to be the one that gives you a 3+ cover save in area terrain. I'm not a massively competitive gamer, so my view is that you just have to take the rough with the smooth, suck it up if something goes awry, it was just a likely to happen to your opponent, and who knows, next time you might find yourself holding a vital objective sat in a river that grants your flimsy troop unit FNP!
That's all I can think of so far, but let me know if there's anything else you'd like a view on.
TL,DR - Basically
This message was edited 23 times. Last update was at 2012/07/09 11:32:10
I see dark eldar skimmers becoming a bit harder to kill, but their infantry becoming easier to kill... 5+ fnp really nerfs wyches. That said, I feel DE can carry the day both games, but I'm supremely interested in seeing how the DP and razorwing fare after the drop
I don't think it will be your last if I can play you this saturday becuase i Doubt the rulebook will be released then, GW normally allow a week after confirming what it is they are releasing.
2012/06/21 13:28:40
Subject: 5th Edition Vs 6th Edition: An experiment to see just how much things change
Zid wrote:I see dark eldar skimmers becoming a bit harder to kill, but their infantry becoming easier to kill... 5+ fnp really nerfs wyches. That said, I feel DE can carry the day both games, but I'm supremely interested in seeing how the DP and razorwing fare after the drop
Yeah, the 5+ FNP will be a bit of an issue, but if the WD battle report is correct at least it will now work against power weapons. I agree that the flyer will probably have the most noticable change, but we will have to wait and see! I'm curious to see what AP rending will be, if the whole thing about power weapons being AP3 is true and rending is the same, then it could completely screw up my usual plan with the beast squad
GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:I don't think it will be your last if I can play you this saturday becuase i Doubt the rulebook will be released then, GW normally allow a week after confirming what it is they are releasing.
Aah crap I forgot to PM you, sorry man I will be busy this weekend so I wont be able to get a game in after all. I'm off work the 2nd week of July so I can get loads of 6th ed played so maybe we can grab a game then?
This is exactly the thing I want to see from Dakka. A well-thought out comparison setup. Thanks, Gorechild, I really appreciate this!
Falling down is the same as being hit by a planet — "I paint to the 20 foot rule, it saves a lot of time." -- Me
ddogwood wrote:People who feel the need to cheat at Warhammer deserve pity, not anger. I mean, how pathetic does your life have to be to make you feel like you need to cheat at your toy army soldiers game?
2012/06/24 22:16:32
Subject: Re:5th Edition Vs 6th Edition: An experiment to see just how much things change
Briancj wrote:This is exactly the thing I want to see from Dakka. A well-thought out comparison setup. Thanks, Gorechild, I really appreciate this!
Thanks man, I hope it proves to be at least a little useful to somebody
1st report is all written up in the 1st post now, sorry it took so long (bit of a hectic weekend) ! Tomorrow I'll try and write up a little conclusion; what I think worked well, what I think sucked, what I think/hope will change. In the mean time, please let me know what you think!
Played my first game of 6th today. There's a lot to get used to, but I don't think I should have trouble being able to get enough of a grasp on the rules over the next week to have a go at the report. First impressions are positive though!
This reinforces my belief that casual players got a big boost, and tournament players got a big .
Falling down is the same as being hit by a planet — "I paint to the 20 foot rule, it saves a lot of time." -- Me
ddogwood wrote:People who feel the need to cheat at Warhammer deserve pity, not anger. I mean, how pathetic does your life have to be to make you feel like you need to cheat at your toy army soldiers game?
2012/07/09 20:38:41
Subject: Re:5th Edition Vs 6th Edition: An experiment to see just how much things change (Finished)
Briancj wrote:Thanks for the effort! Sad about the LR/Termies.
This reinforces my belief that casual players got a big boost, and tournament players got a big .
I cant imagine the Termies would have made a big enough difference to turn the game around, but in the sake of fairness it was a really big shame we didn't catch the mistake, especially considering that they did well in the first game.
I think you're right about the casual vs tourney thing though. I'll try and do another rep in a couple weeks when I've properly got my head around everything and I've put a more sensible list together, to see how things pan out then!
I think you're spot-on: Those that just play the game for fun now have more wacky fun things that can happen from weird terrain to spectacular psychic shenanigans to fliers going WHEEEEEEEEEEE BOOM all over.
For the competitive player that can no longer contest with vehicles last minute, that depends on his troops being able to get where they need to go and succeed at assaults where he needs them and keep models he paid a lot of points for alive, it screws him. Assault the enemy 3" away! ....Snake eyes? NOOOOOOOOOOO game over.
It's too much randomness, too unpredictable. I need to suck it up, learn it as an uncompetitive game, and just trust to dice I guess.
40k Armies I play:
Glory for Slaanesh!
2012/07/13 10:57:38
Subject: 5th Edition Vs 6th Edition: An experiment to see just how much things change (Finished)
GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Can't believe how lucky ur Dark Eldar get all the time!
Nice Rep, Looks good and I'll have to do one with you in the future!
It's not luck if it happens all the time
Spellbound wrote:I think you're spot-on: Those that just play the game for fun now have more wacky fun things that can happen from weird terrain to spectacular psychic shenanigans to fliers going WHEEEEEEEEEEE BOOM all over.
For the competitive player that can no longer contest with vehicles last minute, that depends on his troops being able to get where they need to go and succeed at assaults where he needs them and keep models he paid a lot of points for alive, it screws him. Assault the enemy 3" away! ....Snake eyes? NOOOOOOOOOOO game over.
It's too much randomness, too unpredictable. I need to suck it up, learn it as an uncompetitive game, and just trust to dice I guess.
The more games I play the less and less convinced I am that the new rule set bones competitive play, sure people might have to start from the ground up again, but what can you expect from what is essentially a brand new game? Thinking that the game is uncompetitive just because the uber 5th ed lists aren't unbeatable any more doesn't mean that 6th can't work competitively.
The only massive failures I've seen so far have been from completely fluffing armour saves and stuff like that, nothing new. Sure you'll occasionally come up short on an assault, but I've found that I'm slowly getting used to having a back up plan if you end up 1" short in a charge. TBH, if a player is depending on making a single assault to be able to win a game then they must have made a lot of mistakes up to that point.
After that awful luck, the Bezerkers climb out of their beached transport and run forward an additional 3". The Plague Marines also disembark.
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