How about "The next time a model in the effected unit makes any voluntary movement, all models in the unit count as having moved through difficult and dangerous terrain"

That means they don't take the test if they have to make a "defenders react" movement, only when they have the option not to move but do anyway.

I'm no good at rule lawyering so it might be best to ask somebody who who knows what their on about to make it water tight

Gorechild wrote:If we were going with your style then I don't see anything wrong with them apart from the poisoned ranged weapon, it doesn't seem to fit to me.

I'm assuming (looking at the 10 edits) you've updated your original suggestion?

Mostly due to typos, really

I don't think Death Spinners are actually meant to be templates from a fluff-perspective. Nevertheless, it's an interesting idea, but would be very hard to pull off without either making the unit grossly overpowered or vastly underpowered.

My reasoning behind the poisoned 4+ weapons, and bear with me here, is that I believe that as long as they are high enough strength to harm a vehicle, that AP- will stay, nor will we get rending or any other special rule that might make them good vs vehicles. And there's a good reason for that, they're fast and tough, having S6 AP6 would turn them more into excellent transport hunters, infantry AND MC killers. If Death Spinners become S4, now they become only infantry killers and as I already said, I think that an expensive unit should have some flexibility. Poisoned weapons are a nice compromise, because this way they can't hurt vehicles, but they reliably hurt high T models and infantry, which is exactly what they do now, only better. So I've improved their current main roles, while removing their secondary, not-so-good role as transport-hunters. Point being, whoever bought their spiders in 4th edition codex, won't find them drastically changing in the 5th, which I think is important if the unit doesn't need much improvement. Don't try fixing what isn't broken and all that.

As far as the wording on the monofilament goes, I'm not sure we should bother. GW will use their own writing which will be deliciously vague and RAW-exploitable, no matter what we say here.

Mahtamori wrote:The thing with that wording is that there's several situations where mandatory movement explicitly states a model is immune to difficult or dangerous terrain. Now, if they immediately take a dangerous terrain test that is all fine and well, but the difficult terrain test will amount to nothing.
Example of such movement is the "Defenders respond" during an assault.

Allright allright, what about this then?
"Should a unit be hit by a weapon with the monofilament wire special rule, the unit count as being in difficult and dangerous terrain the next time it moves for any reason."

Which is precisely what I originally wrote, except you used the word "unit" and I used "squad".

No, you wrote "until the next time it moves for any reason" - that could mean that exactly before they move, they stop being in difficult terrain. Oh well.

Fair enough, just agree on which wording you want to use and I'll edit it in my profile, so others can use it if they want to make their own Warp Spider profile without the effort of changing the basic rules.

Swooping Hawks

Swooping Hawks wings count as Jet Packs that move 12" in the movement phase (and the standard 6" in the assault phase)

Skyleap - Remove the Swooping Hawks from the table and replace the unit with a Token. Each subsequent movement phase the controlling player may move the marker 24" in any direction and place the marker once again or the player may choose to "land" the unit as per deepstrike rules. Enemy unit may shoot at the Swooping Hawk using the Marker as LoS and shooting distance, but suffer a -18" to their range (ah la nightsheilds) and the swooping hawks benefit from a 3+ cover save as if they had just move using the turboboost USR (this allows flak cannons etc to negate the save)

Swooping Hawk grenade pack - Confers assault and haywire grenade to the unit, addditionally while the unit off the board during skyleap it may choose to make a Swooping Hawk Grenade attack against any unit it passes over (ah la reaver jetbikes). Resolve this attack using one of the following profiles based on home many models are in the unit equipped with Swooping Hawk Grenade packs : 1-4 S4 AP5 Barrage, 5-9 S6 AP5 Barrage, 10+ S8 AP5 Barrage.

And for god sake make the Lasblaster at least AP4.

I don't think giving SHawks and WSpiders JSJ is a great idea. I've been toying with ideas for them but still cant think of anything I like, I'll chuck my ideas out there incase they help someone else come up with something:

Deepstriking into assault
Can choose to move 18" but not assault
Can used ranged weapons in assault instead of normal attacks
Other units of swooping hawks can shoot into a combat as long as the only friendly unit involved has hawk wings.
Give them grenades identical to wyches haywire grenades.

Out of those five options, I think Deepstriking into assault and Can choose to move 18" but not assault are what I like the most. Though thhe first would need the unit to be a bit able to fight in CC, of course.

The major problem you'll have with that is that SWH are not CC specialist so DSing into assault would just make them a liability to whatever is currently fighting. Swooping Hawks fly through the sky, so they suffer the same pseudo 3D issue that jetbikes, eldar grav tanks, etc have in that they can't live up to their fluff.

My 40k pic of Swooping Hawks would be as close to a superhero with wings as you could thing. The SHW Pack has a self sustaining power source of plasma, they have leg dropped grenades, and long range laser rifles, so why would they be assaulting? I would think they would carpet bomb from the air strategically while using their rifle range to take out targets. Only time I would see them landing is to get a haywire shot in a vulnerable spot on a vehicle.

These aren't assault marines and allowing shooting into cover would be opening too much of a can of worms.

Big hurdles to overcome:
- Point cost balance, boost effectiveness or lower cost
- No reason to take more then 5 per squad, give me a reason to field 30 hawks
- Low survivability to damage output ratio

BlueDagger wrote:Big hurdles to overcome:
- Point cost balance, boost effectiveness or lower cost
- No reason to take more then 5 per squad, give me a reason to field 30 hawks
- Low survivability to damage output ratio

How about a reaver jetbike style attack from the grenade packs? Any unit they move over takes D3 x Number of models in the unit hits, they can then shoot afterwards with assault 3 ap4 rifles.

Wraith Lords- No more twin-linking, Can buy the same weapon twice without twin-linking them. Easier twin-linking, A second weapon of the same sort is half as expensive. Twin-linked weapons aren't as powerful as two weapons of the same kind. Three for the FOC-price of one, Each FOC slot may provide room for up to three Wraith Lords. Each Wraith Lord is a unit of it's own for all other purposes. Improved Melee, Return of the 3 base attacks in melee OR by having Wraithsword provide bonus attacks (in which case double-blade becomes an option). The idea is that the Wraith Lord is FOC-slot ineffective and easily tied down in melee for a monstrous creature. Aspect Lords, Wraithlords are equipped according to their former Aspect. Each lord will also feature a slightly different statline to differentiate between the heavy and the light aspects. This is a rather large topic due to the number of itterations, but also requires the base statline for Wraith Lords to be decreased. For example a Spider Wraith Lord would come with double swords and a Mandiblaster, bumping it's base attacks up to 4, in addition to being able to infiltrate. A Spider Wraith Lord would have increased Strength of 8(9) and a high toughness of 8. The basic idea is also to cut down on the number of iterations, maybe so much as to only get one melee archetype, one ranged archetype, and one miscellaneous archetype, and allow for some variation.


Wraithlords are S10

I keep hearing that the swooping hawk exarch was almost like a kungfu master in previous editions. What if we made Hawks like the ultimate hit and run with assault. My vision is like a real-world hawk swooping down and raking an intruder with its claws. Give them grenades to synthesize this, that deal damage to any unit they fly over. Then reconcept their weaponry from the lame lasblasters to something a tad more close combat, make them be able to fleet of foot with their wings, going maybe 2d6, then give them some sort of close combat weapon envisioning a sort of a claw but not sure what it would do. Give them the hit and run ability, so we have essentially an extremely elusive infrantry and light vehicle assault troop.

Just my two cents, i know this would be a major reconception of the hawks that we know but really the hawks that we know aren't the greatest thing to begin with.

@Oriallis - I think this is probably the best way forward, unlike a lot of the units that just need minor changes, I think the only really way to make the Hawks a different and viable choice would be to just start from scratch again. Now that we have more of an idea what we think the other FA choices should behave like we should be able to fill the gap with them.

As I see it, SSpears are TEQ/MC hunters, Warp Spiders are a general harassment unit, vypers are a fast platform for heavy weapons. As I see it what is missing is a quick MEQ or GEQ killer.

If we were going to theme them around actual hawks I'd agree with Hit and Run, maybe deep striking into combat, rending? Exarch has power claws (I'm thinking like zagstruk (sp?) the ork storm boy character) maybe give Baharroth the ability to allocate any wounds he inflicts rather than the opponent doing it?

Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack - These leg-mounted grenades are used as shock weapons when assaulting enemy positions. In a phase in which the unit with these grenades are assaulting, the Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack count as offensive grenades and will negate any reactive ability the unit being assaulted has, such as defensive grenades or counter-assault.

Lasblaster - 12" S6 Ap 2 Assault 1 Lance
Vorpal Blades - close combat weapon, forces enemy to re-roll successful armour saves.*

Standard Swooping Hawk kit = Haywire Grenades, Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack, Lasblaster, Shuriken Pistol, Vorpal Blades.

Standard abilities = Deep Strike, Jump Pack, Hit and Run, Move Through Cover**, Fleet of Foot

Exarch Abilities = Sky Leap (turbo-boost), Fell Swoop (Hit and Run moves up to full 18" rather than rolling)

* I envision these to be a go-between for Power Weapons and normal Close Combat Weapons. Typically given to Storm Guardians.
** I envision Move Through Cover to be an Eldar army-wide ability.

Here's an idea for an Exarch weapon, sort of like a way for the unit to cut down on the retaliation before running.

Name- Talon blade

Ability- +1 Attacks, vorpal
for every unsaved wound an enemy suffers in assault the unit must take an inititive test, for every failed test the unit loses 1d3 attack in that assault.

Almost like a hawk swooping down on an enemy with little to no fear of retaliation, mostly a way to avoid the constant problem of being buried alive by Ork squads before being able to run away

Right, a quick rundown of what we've covered so far and what is still left to sort out:

HQ:
Autarch - Done
Farseer/SeerCouncil - Done?
Avatar - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Hoec - Done
Eldrad - Not covered
Iyana - Done
Biel Tan guy - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Nahadu (sp?) - Done

Troop:
Dire Avengers - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Guardians - Done
Rangers - Done?
Jetbikes - Done?

Elite:
Howling Banshees - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Striking Scorpions - Not covered
Fire Dragons - Done
Harlequins - Done?
Wraithguard - Done?

Fast Attack:
Warp Spiders - Done?
Swooping Hawks - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Shining Spears - Done?
Vypers - Done?

Heavy Support:
Dark Reapers - Done?
Wraithlords - Not covered
Fire Prism/Night Spinner - Done
War Walker - Discussed but no real conculsion made

Dedicated Transports:
Wave Serpent - Done
Falcon - Discussed but no real conculsion made


Distributing the units in these FOC slots leaves them with a fairly even spread of units in each section.
As the discussion seems to be slowing down at the moment I'll try to compile everything we've covered so far and get it all written up.
Any suggestions for shuffling the units around or anything I've missed?

I have been thinking about the Eldar Codex, and I came up with a device for having a general phoenix lord (e.g. master exarch) vs. an Elder Phoenix Lord (e.g. the Named Phoenix Lords).

Its equivelent would be Marneus Calgar vs. Chapter Master. One is a Chapter Master (of the Ultramarines) the other is a Chapter Master (of unnamed Chapter).

dralend wrote:I have been thinking about the Eldar Codex, and I came up with a device for having a general phoenix lord (e.g. master exarch) vs. an Elder Phoenix Lord (e.g. the Named Phoenix Lords).

Its equivelent would be Marneus Calgar vs. Chapter Master. One is a Chapter Master (of the Ultramarines) the other is a Chapter Master (of unnamed Chapter).

I like the idea of a master exarch, but perhaps that would make the Autarch a little too "over-shadowed". But I do find it quite interesting, yes. Master/High Exarch... I've always thought Exarches should be more like the high priestes of their shrine, not just sergeants of a squad.

Also, gorechild, weren't vypers supposed to be added to jetbikes? Or did we delete that idea?
And also, could you put that list on the first page, and maybe also add links on it for tha page were the start of their discussion started? Hmm, maybe that last thing is a bit much...

For the Phoenix Lord (Master Exarchs) idea and for Asurmen, Jain-Zar, Kharandras, Baharroth, Fuegan and Maugan Ra.

Phoenix Stones: Each Phoenix lord carries a special set of spirit stones that are attuned to him. These ancient Eldar artifacts, known as Phoenix Stones, serve to resurrect a Phoenix Lord should he fall in battle. If a Phoenix Lord falls in combat. The Controlling player may roll a d6. On a roll of 5+ the Phoenix Lord rises anew (with one wound remaining) in a halo of fire. Center a Large Blast template over the Phoenix Lord. All models caught beneath the template take a single Strength 5 hit at AP 4, the Phoenix Lord himself is unaffected.
If by evil chance the Phoenix Lord fails to return or falls anew in combat, leave the model on the table. For the rest of the game, all Eldar units of the same Aspect as the Phoenix Lord gain the Fearless special rule. If the mission uses objectives, the Phoenix Lord’s remains are counted as an additional objective. If the mission uses kill points, the Eldar player forfeits an extra d3 kill points unless he has a model within 2” of the Phoenix Lord at the end of the game.

This was to rationalize the ressurection of the Ancient Phoenix Lords in a Rules format. I admit to having a bit of a "phoenix" frenzy with the fiery ressurection and all.

If we want a name change we might go with Phoenix Guard or Phoenix Knights.

Alot of the above rule was founded in Bjorn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saintspirit wrote:

dralend wrote:I have been thinking about the Eldar Codex, and I came up with a device for having a general phoenix lord (e.g. master exarch) vs. an Elder Phoenix Lord (e.g. the Named Phoenix Lords).

Its equivelent would be Marneus Calgar vs. Chapter Master. One is a Chapter Master (of the Ultramarines) the other is a Chapter Master (of unnamed Chapter).

I like the idea of a master exarch, but perhaps that would make the Autarch a little too "over-shadowed". But I do find it quite interesting, yes. Master/High Exarch... I've always thought Exarches should be more like the high priestes of their shrine, not just sergeants of a squad.

It is especially true that there might be a Heirarchy of Exarchs.

Saintspirit wrote:

dralend wrote:I have been thinking about the Eldar Codex, and I came up with a device for having a general phoenix lord (e.g. master exarch) vs. an Elder Phoenix Lord (e.g. the Named Phoenix Lords).

Its equivelent would be Marneus Calgar vs. Chapter Master. One is a Chapter Master (of the Ultramarines) the other is a Chapter Master (of unnamed Chapter).

I like the idea of a master exarch, but perhaps that would make the Autarch a little too "over-shadowed". But I do find it quite interesting, yes. Master/High Exarch... I've always thought Exarches should be more like the high priestes of their shrine, not just sergeants of a squad.

Also, gorechild, weren't vypers supposed to be added to jetbikes? Or did we delete that idea?
And also, could you put that list on the first page, and maybe also add links on it for tha page were the start of their discussion started? Hmm, maybe that last thing is a bit much...

No, Vypers were discussed becoming Type: Jetbikes, they weren't really discussed as being added to Guardian Jetbikes, as far as I know.

Saintspirit wrote: gorechild, weren't vypers supposed to be added to jetbikes? Or did we delete that idea?
And also, could you put that list on the first page, and maybe also add links on it for tha page were the start of their discussion started? Hmm, maybe that last thing is a bit much...

I was going with the T5 jetbike style Vypers, just as their own unit. I wasn't certain if that was a popular choice or not though, hence the "?"
We did have a look at having them as upgrade models for GJB squads, but i think they are best kept seperate.
I was going to slowly compile them into 1 uber post to help me with writing them up, But I'll move that summary into the 1st post now aswell.

Swooping Hawks - XXX Points

-------------------------WS---BS--S--T--I--A--W--Ld-- Sv
Swooping Hawk------4-----4----3--3--6--1---1---8---4+
Exarch-----------------5-----5----3--3--7-2---1---9----3+

Unit Size: 1 Exarch and 4 Swooping Hawks
Up to 5 Additional Swooping hawks may be purchased for XX points per model

Unit Type: Jump Infantry

Wargear: Hawk Wings, Lasblaster, Grenade Pack, Vorpal Talons
The Exarch may upgrade his Lasblaster to a (don't know name) for XX points and his Vorpal Talons to Crushing Tallons for XX points.

Special Rules: Fleet, Hit and Run
The Exarch may take any of these powers: Skyleap - XX points - The exarch and his unit may move 24" in the movement phase, but cannot shoot or assault in the same turn. Fell Swoop - XX points - When you use Hit and Run the unit automatically moves up to 18" instead of 3D6".

Hawk wings - changes units type to JI
Lasblaster - R12" S3 AP- Assault 3
Grenade Pack - When a unit with a grenade pack moves over an enemy unit they inflict D3 automatic hits. They are resolved at S4 AP- against a non vehicle unit, or glance a vehicle on a 4+ and penetrate on a 6.
Vorpal Tallons - Enemy must re-roll sucessful armour saves
(exarch gun) - R12" S4 AP5 Assault 4
Crushing Talons - Power weapon, wounds inflicted by Crushing talons are allocated by the controling player.

Yes, no or maybe?

Hmm, I like this actually. Makes for some nice harassment.
The Exarch gun could be called Skyblaster or perhaps Hawk's Wrath.
Also, I think the normal CCW should be called Hawk Talons or just Talons, while the Exarch CCW could be Vorpal Talons or something likely. But I don't like Crushing Talons. In any case, Vorpal/whatever Talons should give +1 attack (the Exarxh does have one on each hand, right?)

And about the Phoenix Lord and Master Exarch problem together with the over-filled HQ part, maybe just make a SC choice "Phoenix Lord" and give the names as an (obligatory) upgrade? That would give at least some space, I guess... Or if we just should remove the Phoenix lords...

Maugan Ra et al could simply be name characters, while Phoenix Lords require a mandatory "shrine" upgrade. This would go well with upgrading or replacing a normal exarch, thus the Phoenix Lord may give the unit some local buffs as well.

Naturally this makes the awesome shock effect of Fuegan in an Apocalypse game as demonstrated in the GW battle report lessened.

Regarding Falcons as transport: They are currently very similar to Wave Serpents. If Wave Serpents were made Assault Vehicles and Falcons could shoot two heavy weapons at combat speed, this would distinguish them.
The risk is that the new gun-boat Falcon would even more encourage DAVU, so it would have to go with enforced Exarchs etc. Preferably all Eldar infantry would have some form of special rule which made them better when walking, so that mechanization is a choice rather than a requirement.

Do you want a refined Idea then. It would take me a couple of days to reorganize my notes but I could do it. I don't believe getting rid of the Phoenix Lords (as they are in current codex) is a wise Idea, personally. But I could work them into something

Well, iterating ideas is what the thread is all about. Or at least what I am all about.

Personally I don't care much for Phoenix Lords, but that's because I have a profound dislike for named hero characters. I wouldn't mind more faceless or generic Phoenix Lords, maybe not toned down so much as adapted to be the shrine leader of the craftworld - sort of on the same level as an Avatar, more special than a Farseer or an Autarch, but less special than Eldrad and Yriel.

Just something I thought I'd add to the hawks:
Since they are harassment units, I think the Exarch should have the possibility to buy a Sunburst Cannon (basically a Heavy Flamer, maybe with some stat changes).
Template S3 Ap4 Assault 1?

And about the phoenix lords... No, I have no idea what to do with them. I'd really prefer our SC:s to be Eldrad, Hoec, Iyanna and so on, but at the same time they are an important part of the Eldar background.

Saintspirit wrote:Just something I thought I'd add to the hawks:
Since they are harassment units, I think the Exarch should have the possibility to buy a Sunburst Cannon (basically a Heavy Flamer, maybe with some stat changes).
Template S3 Ap4 Assault 1?

And about the phoenix lords... No, I have no idea what to do with them. I'd really prefer our SC:s to be Eldrad, Hoec, Iyanna and so on, but at the same time they are an important part of the Eldar background.

My suggestion was just a "get the ball rolling" post, so feel free to change anything else, I just put down the only thing I could think of theat was different from what we've already got going in the FA slot.

about the PL's, I agrre with having the craftworld specific SC's in favour of he pheonix lords. I can't see a whole lot of variation being possible with the pheonix lords aside from basically having a whole army of their aspect. I think having them as a unit upgrade ("one fire dragon exarch may be upgraded to Fuegan for 45 points, this unit may re-reroll any vehicle damage chart results and also counts as scoring as long as Fuegan is on the board") will give us more breathing space in the HQ slot, stop them randomly joining other aspects and give them a really useful role in the army.

The thing here is that PL:s are frikkin' demi-gods. Really, I'd prefer to just have them in Apocalypse, powered up.
And instead of PL:s in the regular codex, make it possible to upgrade one exarch in the army to Shrine Keeper or whatever, which is just a better exarch and that makes his/her unit scoring.

I'm not sure about shrine keepers, maybe as simply a unit upgrade, but my concern is that Exarchs are shrinekeepers, essentially when you use an Aspect Warrior squad led by an exarch, you are playing a temple's elite led by their high priest. Shrine Keeper would throw this out of proportion

But if we see the exarchs as priests, my idea is that Shrine Keepers would be the High priests.

The balance in Eldar fluff has changed a bit from what I've heard. Early days the shrines were relatively small in number, most craftworlds only had a single shrine per aspect and seldom all aspects, but now there may even be several shrines per craftworld.

Eldar are less and less becoming the dying race in the fluff, and more and more numerous. Aspect warriors were never the elite of the priesthood, though - they were the priesthood, the Eldar whom are travelling the path of Khaine. Exarchs are lost on the path, just as there are Farseers whom will never return to the normal cycle and artisans whom will never again pick up a different tool.

Well this thread seems to by dying a death so I'll try and kick start it yet again

The CC specailsts:
Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions and Harlequins.

Of the three, banshees are the most reliant on a wave serpent. Scorps can outflank and the shadowseer can look after quins whilst they dance up the field.

The only real issues I currently see with HB's is they really need a doomseer escort to reliably work and hey can't assault out of a moving vehicle.
I'd suggest we keep them the same with the following exceptions:

Change the Acrobatic exarch power to "A unit with the Acrobatic rule may disembark and assault if the vehicle transporting them hasn'y moved more than 12" this turn."

Give them the Furious Charge USR

Increase their points accordingly (18-20ppm?)

You'd then have 3 S4 attacks per model on the turn the charge, but still keep the T3 4+ vulnerability that will mean they dont want to get bogged down. They'd hit hard and fast, or get trapped and die.

Scorpions IMO arent that bad, maybe 4 attacks per model on the charge would be good to set them appart from the shee's? 3+ armour and maybe S4 T3? makes them more suited to long running assaults with bigger units?

Harlequins could do with kisses as standard, they are always take as options anyway and they'd make a coo half way house between the other two. Other than that I think they are okay.

Thoughts?

Scorpions IMO arent that bad, maybe 4 attacks per model on the charge would be good to set them appart from the shee's?

Errr scorpions have 4 attacks on the charge now .... look at mandiblasters ....

The big problem with the Scorpion and Banshee case is that Eldar are specialized.

Sure, Banshees having good out-of-the-vehicle assault works when fighting MEQ. What if you face GEQ on the ground? Rely on Scorpions when GEQ are more likely then MEQ to have cover-negating weapons?

I recon both the anti-MEQ and anti-GEQ close quarters specialists need to be suited for both mechanization and sneakiness.
Additionally, due to over specialization, they both need to be more distinctly good at their area of expertise. If a unit of Banshees assault a unit of Marines (regardless of armour or equipment), they should win provided the marines assaulted aren't a distinctly larger point investment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a random thought on Phoenix Lords, btw:

Essentially a tiny bit older fluff had the Phoenix Lords be sort of reborn as a psyche, absorbing the knowledge and skills of the exarchs into which they are reborn.
1. Phoenix Lords are not deployed onto the field. A Phoenix Lord is always deployed in reserve. When a Phoenix Lord arrives from reserve, replace any exarch model alive (either in reserve or on the board) with the Phoenix Lord.
2. When the Phoenix Lord dies, the model is removed from the table and placed back in reserve. Return to 1.
3. The stat-line should de-emphasise wounds due to the rebirthing nature, although keep in mind you sacrifice an exarch for him!

Swooping hawks:

Some things that I think won't work, or I think should be avoided:

dropping grenades over any enemy unit it flies over - this won't work, unless the hawk squad can move 36" in a turn, and here is why: Assault range is default 12". If the hawks can move 24", in order to "fly over" an enemy unit which is ZERO inches wide, they must start, or end, their turn in assault range, or rapid fire range, of an enemy unit. For an expensive fragile jump troop, this means a bunch of dead hawks.

Skyleap remaining in the current schema (allowing re-deployment) - any rule which is designed to keep a unit off the table as much as possible should be avoided, in my opinion.

Deep-strike grenade drop - its gimmicky and poorly designed. This, combined with sky leap, makes the hawks a really gimmicky unit.

I feel hawks should be completely redesigned.


Statline: Aspect Warrior standard, 'medium' armor save (on par with banshees, DAs, etc)

Special Rules:
All normal eldar army-wide rules, and fleet
Masters of the Skies: On any turn in which the hawk unit moved, cover saves may not be taken against wounds inflicted by the hawk squad in the shooting phase.

Wargear:
Swooping Hawk Wings, Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack, Lasblaster


Swooping Hawk Wings: Swooping Hawks are Jump Infantry, and have the Hit and Run USR
Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack: Swooping hawks have assault, defensive, krak, and haywire grenades
Haywire grenades: 1: shaken 2-4: glance 5-6:pen

Lasblaster:
Several profiles I could see working:
S4 Ap5 R24" Assault 2
S3 Ap6 R24" Assault 3
S3 Ap6 R24" Assault 4

Exarch:
Sunrifle
Hawks Talon


Powers:
Intercept: The hawks never need worse than a 3+ to hit any vehicle. In any turn in which they assaulted a vehicle, they may always utilize their hit and run USR at the end of the assault phase (this allows them to attack and destroy a vehicle/transport, and still get away from reprisals, which is one of their major weaknesses currently).
Skyleap: The hawks have the 'Turboboost' USR.
Aerial Assault (many points): At the start of the assault phase, the hawk unit may make a leadership check, if passed, all swooping hawks in the unit may use their normal number of attacks when attacking with grenades.

So, very simply, the hawks role is supporting anti-infantry fire, and anti-vehicle. I've buffed their movement, and buffed their ranged shooting. I've buffed haywire grenades, and given hawks a mechanism of escape from the aftermath of vehicular combat.


Scorpions:
Their major problem is that they aren't fast, and their prime role - anti horde CC - isn't that useful, because generally when the eldar army is fighting CC against a horde, the game is already lost. My fixes for them are S4 base, which allows for a S8 claw, and a 2+ armor save. (I strongly support a 2+ armor save for all aspects which currently have a 3+, but thats another debate).

I've already nailed down my agreement on Skyleap = Turbo-boost, so I'll comment on the rest.

Another way to guard against vehicular explosions is for Haywires specifically state Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes! count as none-explodes result.
Keep in mind that Scorpions typically have Haywires as well!

I see a fix for Scorpions to be more anti-horde CC. Simply generalise the Exarch powers! Defend would be excellent for Scorpions! Move infiltration to aspect power rather than exarch power and add in Defend.

Mahtamori wrote:Another way to guard against vehicular explosions is for Haywires specifically state Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes! count as none-explodes result.
Keep in mind that Scorpions typically have Haywires as well!

I think this is the best way around it, simply add "any "Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes" results caused by haywire grenades instead count as "Vehicle Destroyed - Wrecked" instead"

I'd second your suggestion of giving the scorps defend, I'm not too keen on 2+ armour though

Here's me being bored. This is a complete suggestion. Point costs are attempted to be kept the same, so unless something is noted otherwise, assume no change there.

No, there is no TL - DR. This is the TL - DR. There's no fluff!

<Wargear>
* Shuriken Catapults are R18" S3 AP5 Assault 2
* Dire Avenger Shuriken Catapults remain the same
* Shuriken Cannons are R24" S4 AP4 Assault 4.
* Lasblasters are R24" S3 AP5 Assault 3
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers
* Haywire Grenades treat Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes! as Vehicle Destroyed - Wrecked.
* Vectored Engines (vehicle upgrade) allows a vehicle to deep strike, with a scatter of 1D6".

<Army special rules>
* All models are Fleet, including Walkers and Wraiths.
* All infantry and jump infantry have Move Through Cover.
* All unit leaders are psychers, and help with Wraithsight.
* All Exarch powers are psychic powers and function identically to Warlock powers.
* All Aspect Warriors are joined by an Exarch at no additional cost.

<Supernatural powers>
* Mind War causes single wound to one model within line of sight and 18". No saves of any kind may be made.
* Eldritch Storm has infinite range, does not scatter, requires no line of sight.
* Blade Storm changes name to Fire Storm. Increases the rate of fire by +1 for every full 2 shots it's normally able to fire, at the expense of needing to cool off next turn.
* Conceal grants Stealth USR, and may be used in open terrain.

<HQ>

Farseer.
* Knows two psychic powers, may cast one.
* Venerable upgrade replaces Soul Stone. Venerable Farseers know all psychic powers and may cast two per turn.
* Farseer cost increased to 80 points base.
* Venerable Farseer upgrade cost set to +50 points
* Up to three Warlocks may be joined to the Farseer as a retinue.
* Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon or Wave Serpent as dedicated transport

Warlocks
* These may not be purchased indepentently.
* These units may not be upgraded to Spiritseers, unless accompanying a Wraithguard unit.

Autarch.
* Master Strategist also includes the effects as seen in Eldrad's Divination.
* Move Through Cover.

Avatar.
* This unit is now Fleet.

Named characters.
* These are righteously ignored for the moment.

<Dedicated Transports>

Wave Serpent
* This unit is an assault vehicle. Models transported inside count as disembarking from a stationary vehicle for purposes of assault.
* This unit has access to Energy Fields as an optional upgrade for +20 points
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers

Falcon
* This unit is a gunship. The turret-mounted weapons are treated as a single weapon for purposes of determining which weapons may fire at a given speed.
* This unit has a carry capacity of 12
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers

<Elites>

Fire Dragons.
* Basic unit size is 4 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch.
* Exarch is a psycher.
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

Harlequin Troupe
* This unit may also select Falcon and Wave Serpent as dedicated transport

Howling Banshees
* This unit has Acrobatic with or without Exarch. Is not conferred to Autarch.
* Exarch power War Shout reduces the weapon skill of all models in base contact with Exarch to 1. No leadership test is made.
* Exarch has access to Banshee Veil (grants Scout USR to unit) for +10 points.
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

Striking Scorpions
* This unit has Infiltrate with or without Exarch. Is not conferred to Autarch.
* Exarch has access to Defend Exarch power for the same cost as Dire Avengers.
* This unit has Haywire Grenades
* Haywire Grenades treat Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes! as Vehicle Destroyed - Wrecked.
* This unit has Fleet
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

Wraithguard
* Unit consist of 3-10 Wraithguard and 1 Warlock.
* This unit may not be chosen as a Troop choice.
* Wraithsight changed, makes the unit Slow and Purposeful unless within 6" range of a psycher.
* This unit count as having Power Fists in close combat.
* Warlock may be upgraded to a Boneweaver for +20 points. Boneweavers grant Wraithguard and Wraithlord within 6" Feel No Pain (4+), but may not choose Warlock psychic powers.
* This unit has Fleet
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

<Troop>

Guardian Defenders
* This unit consist of 5-20 Guardian Defenders and 1 Warlock, and are upgraded in quantities of 5 Guardian Defenders.
* This unit has R18" S3 AP5 weapons.
* Guardian Defenders have BS4
* For every 5 Guardian Storm in the unit, two members must will crew one heavy weapon platform at the point cost of the weapon.
* One weapon platform may be upgraded to a Support Weapon Platform at the point cost of the weapon.
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

Guardian Storm
* This unit consist of 10-20 Guardian Storm and 1 Warlock, and are upgraded in quantities of 5 Guardian Storm.
* Guardian Storm have WS4
* Guardian Storm have Scouts USR
* Guardian Storm have offensive and Haywire Grenades
* Haywire Grenades treat Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes! as Vehicle Destroyed - Wrecked.
* For every 5 Guardian Storm in the unit, one model must be given an additional special weapon (flamer or fusion gun) which does not replace current armament
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

Guardian Jetbike
* This unit consist of 3-9 Guardian Jetbikes and 1 Warlock.
* This unit has twin-linked R18" S3 AP5 weapons.

Rangers
* This unit has a cost of 22
* This unit has all the benefits of Pathfinders by default.
* This unit may not be upgraded to Pathfinders.

Dire Avengers
* The basic squad consist of 4 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch.
* Dire Sword causes Instant Death on a successful leadership test.
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

<Fast Attack>

Shining Spears
* The basic cost of this unit is reduced to 30 points per model.
* The basic squad consist of 2 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch
* The unit has Hit and Run aspect ability, which is conferred to joined Exarchs.
* Exarch Withdraw power allows unit to utilized Hit and Run on a turn the assault at will, even if not all conditions are met.
* This unit has offensive grenades.

Swooping Hawks
* The basic cost of this squad is reduced to 18 points.
* The basic squad consist of 4 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch.
* Any unit in the army may measure visibility, such as for purposes of Night Fighting, from a unit of Swooping Hawks.
* Any unit in the army capable of firing Barrage may use Direct Fire if the target is within line of Sight of the Swooping Hawks.
* Skyleap grants the Exarch and unit Turbo-boost instead.
* Haywire Grenades treat Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes! as Vehicle Destroyed - Wrecked.
* This unit has improved basic weapons.
* This unit no longer has Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack.
* This unit has Move Through Cover

Warp Spiders
* The basic cost of this squad is reduced to 18 points per model.
* The basic squad consist of 4 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch.
* The Exarch no longer has access to Surprise Assault
* The Exarch has access to Warp Crawler for +5 points. This allows the unit to re-roll any assault-phase Warp Jump rolls. Second results stay.
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit has Fleet

Vyper
* This unit is no longer open topped.
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers
* This unit has Vectored Engines

War Walker
* This unit is now Fast Attack rather than Heavy Support
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers
* This unit has Fleet

<Heavy Support>

Falcon
* This unit is now a dedicated transport and may no longer be selected as a HS choice

War Walker
* This unit is now a Fast Attach choice and may no longer be selected as a HS choice

Support Weapon
* This unit is now a squad upgrade for Guardian Defenders and may no longer be selected as a HS choice

Dark Reapers
* The basic squad consist of 2 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch.
* Exarch no longer has access to any of the previous Exarch powers.
* Exarch has access to Fire Storm Exarch power.
* Exarch has access to Path of the Reaper Exarch power for +10 points. This allows the unit to select to be Slow and Purposeful or not at the start of the owning player's movement phase.
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit has Fleet

Fire Prism
* No additional changes

Shadow Weaver
* The dangerous terrain test is triggered immediately when next the unit moves, for any reason, and the unit is otherwise treated as if in difficult terrain for the rest of that move. This is a clarification change.

Wraithlord
* The heavy weapons are purchased individually and does not twin-link.
* The Wraithsword grants an additional attack, but does not allow re-rolling of failed attack rolls.
* Wraithsight changed, makes the unit Slow and Purposeful unless within 6" range of a psycher.
* Shuriken Cannon cost 5 points each.
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers
* This unit has Fleet

Grim reapers? lol.

rivers64 wrote:Grim reapers? lol.

Now with twin-linked scythes.

Right, my feedback on this (in red):

I apologise for it being critical, but I'll try to explain my points where possible, so hopefully it's constructive more than anything. Nonetheless, here are [just] my thoughts on what you've proposed:

Mahtamori wrote:Here's me being bored. This is a complete suggestion. Point costs are attempted to be kept the same, so unless something is noted otherwise, assume no change there.

No, there is no TL - DR. This is the TL - DR. There's no fluff!

<Wargear>
* Shuriken Catapults are R18" S3 AP5 Assault 2
* Dire Avenger Shuriken Catapults remain the same
* Shuriken Cannons are R24" S4 AP4 Assault 4.
* Lasblasters are R24" S3 AP5 Assault 3
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers
* Haywire Grenades treat Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes! as Vehicle Destroyed - Wrecked.
* Vectored Engines (vehicle upgrade) allows a vehicle to deep strike, with a scatter of 1D6".
Not sure whether I prefer Shuriken Catapults before or now tbh, but I'm relieved to see it's not rending as was previously considered.
I think you've made Shuriken Cannons significantly worse and I can't see why, they were largely outclassed by Scatter Lasers as it was; their only advantage now is being defensive, but I'd personally prefer Str6 over defensive.
Lasblasters may be a bit of an OTT change IMHO, maybe range 18" would be more suitable IMHO. However, Star Cannons are a fair points cost reduction, although I still see their use being limited.
Nice change for haywire grenades, makes sense. Although it may be simpler to simply move them in line with the DE (assuming they're different).
I personally don't see the reasoning or advantage behing vectored engines. Eldar have no close range or melta weapons to benefit from deepstrike and when was the last time you saw a vehicle other than a Land Speeder, drop pod or monolith deep-strike?

<Army special rules>
* All models are Fleet, including Walkers and Wraiths.
* All infantry and jump infantry have Move Through Cover.
* All unit leaders are psychers, and help with Wraithsight.
* All Exarch powers are psychic powers and function identically to Warlock powers.
* All Aspect Warriors are joined by an Exarch at no additional cost.

Move through cover is reasonable and fair IMHO. However, Walkers and Wraiths being Fleet makes no sense to me. Walkers would be shooting rather than running and the only walker (Warwalker) has scout as it is. Wraiths are similarly practically dead and can you imagine something akin to a Wraithguard going for a brisk jog? Particularly considering it's twice the size of a normal Eldar and inhabited by someone who's technically dead.
Free exarchs sounds fairly reasonable to me, similar to most 5th edition at least although I think it should be a 10pts increase to the units base points cost, akin to Space Marine sergeants etc. IMHO. I don't see the reasoning behind making Exarch Powers capable of being nullified, nor them helping Wraithsight?

<Supernatural powers>
* Mind War causes single wound to one model within line of sight and 18". No saves of any kind may be made.
* Eldritch Storm has infinite range, does not scatter, requires no line of sight.
* Blade Storm changes name to Fire Storm. Increases the rate of fire by +1 for every full 2 shots it's normally able to fire, at the expense of needing to cool off next turn.
* Conceal grants Stealth USR, and may be used in open terrain.
I'd argue mind war to be worse than it is now tbh. Keep your idea but with the current wound mechanic IMHO. Eldritch storm seems balanced if it had scatter I'd argue.
Conceal is good though.
Fire/Blade Storm is fine (As before) and the name change is good, although I'd just leave it with the same wording otherwise you get confusion for 3-shot weapons and EML's in Reapers get nerfed.

<HQ>

Farseer.
* Knows two psychic powers, may cast one.
* Venerable upgrade replaces Soul Stone. Venerable Farseers know all psychic powers and may cast two per turn.
* Farseer cost increased to 80 points base.
* Venerable Farseer upgrade cost set to +50 points
* Up to three Warlocks may be joined to the Farseer as a retinue.
* Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon or Wave Serpent as dedicated transport

80pts base seems like a bargain to me. Farseers are currently seen as the heart of an Eldar army and for 15pts extra they now don't have to pay for Psychic Powers and know two as standard?!
Venerable seems fine with me, although I don't see why Warlocks needed changing IMHO.

Warlocks
* These may not be purchased indepentently.
* These units may not be upgraded to Spiritseers, unless accompanying a Wraithguard unit.

Autarch.
* Master Strategist also includes the effects as seen in Eldrad's Divination.
* Move Through Cover.

Avatar.
* This unit is now Fleet.

Named characters.
* These are righteously ignored for the moment.

Rightly I assume you mean?

<Dedicated Transports>

Wave Serpent
* This unit is an assault vehicle. Models transported inside count as disembarking from a stationary vehicle for purposes of assault.
* This unit has access to Energy Fields as an optional upgrade for +20 points
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers

Falcon
* This unit is a gunship. The turret-mounted weapons are treated as a single weapon for purposes of determining which weapons may fire at a given speed.
* This unit has a carry capacity of 12
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers

The reasoning behind making Wave Serpents an assault vehicle is beyond me. I can understand it as an ability for Banshees, but a thorough assault vehicle doesn't make sense to me, no other vehicle of the same nature is and quite rightly it works as a balancing mechanism IMHO.
Also, why the Falcon is a DT also makes no sense to me. You said it yourself; "this unit is a gunship". To double its transport capacity (therefore out-classing the Wave Serpent), allow it throughout the army and to improve it's mobile-fire-power for no points change is plain wrong IMHO.
I'd recommend keeping it as HS, keeping its current transport capacity but allowing a single aspect unit to select it as a DT whilst keeping the mobile-firepower rule would be much more suitable IMHO.
Also, how come seemingly only Harlies and a Seer Council may select Wave Serpents?!

<Elites>

Fire Dragons.
* Basic unit size is 4 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch.
* Exarch is a psycher.
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

Harlequin Troupe
* This unit may also select Falcon and Wave Serpent as dedicated transport

Harlequins are tricky due to the DE codex, however I don't believe they should have a DT available IMHO, particularly with the WS as an assault vehicle!
Obviously, fire dragons are fine though.

Howling Banshees
* This unit has Acrobatic with or without Exarch. Is not conferred to Autarch.
* Exarch power War Shout reduces the weapon skill of all models in base contact with Exarch to 1. No leadership test is made.
* Exarch has access to Banshee Veil (grants Scout USR to unit) for +10 points.
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

Acrobatic sounds reasonable, although War Shout was much more balanced before and I don't think Banshees really need a notable boost with Assault Vehicles available.

Striking Scorpions
* This unit has Infiltrate with or without Exarch. Is not conferred to Autarch.
* Exarch has access to Defend Exarch power for the same cost as Dire Avengers.
* This unit has Haywire Grenades
* Haywire Grenades treat Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes! as Vehicle Destroyed - Wrecked.
* This unit has Fleet
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

Base Infiltrate, Move through cover sounds reasonable IMHO. Although to not change their points costs and add this alongside a free exarch, haywire grenades and fleet is excessive IMHO.

Wraithguard
* Unit consist of 3-10 Wraithguard and 1 Warlock.
* This unit may not be chosen as a Troop choice.
* Wraithsight changed, makes the unit Slow and Purposeful unless within 6" range of a psycher.
* This unit count as having Power Fists in close combat.
* Warlock may be upgraded to a Boneweaver for +20 points. Boneweavers grant Wraithguard and Wraithlord within 6" Feel No Pain (4+), but may not choose Warlock psychic powers.
* This unit has Fleet
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

Change to Wraithsight seems reasonable although with Exarchs benefiting it too, I can't see the need behind Wraithsight existing at all tbh. I don't see why they can no longer be taken as troops though; many Lyanden armies are based around such a concept. The Power Fists as standard also seems OP to me too, I don't see how it works with the fluff either IMHO.
I think a Wraithlord/Wraithguard FNP bubble is very much OP however, they're already high toughness. Add this to better movement (particularly through cover) and stealth and I'd argue it to be overpowered. Also, shouldn't a Boneweaver simply be a bonesinger?
Also, you would need to clarify how much space in a transport a Wraithguard takes up too.

<Troop>

Guardian Defenders
* This unit consist of 5-20 Guardian Defenders and 1 Warlock, and are upgraded in quantities of 5 Guardian Defenders.
* This unit has R18" S3 AP5 weapons.
* Guardian Defenders have BS4
* For every 5 Guardian Storm in the unit, two members must will crew one heavy weapon platform at the point cost of the weapon.
* One weapon platform may be upgraded to a Support Weapon Platform at the point cost of the weapon.
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

Whilst I respect what you're attempting to achieve here (Guardians clearly do need a boost), I don't see why they can only be brought in groups of five?
Also, they recieve less training than a Guardsmen or Firewarrior but have better BS? I think Guardians should be BS3 considering their being civilians IMHO.

Guardian Storm
* This unit consist of 10-20 Guardian Storm and 1 Warlock, and are upgraded in quantities of 5 Guardian Storm.
* Guardian Storm have WS4
* Guardian Storm have Scouts USR
* Guardian Storm have offensive and Haywire Grenades
* Haywire Grenades treat Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes! as Vehicle Destroyed - Wrecked.
* For every 5 Guardian Storm in the unit, one model must be given an additional special weapon (flamer or fusion gun) which does not replace current armament
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

Same points for Defenders, however I also feel Scouts (particularly with a DT) and Haywire grenades are too much IMHO. I also don't see why they 'must' take an additional special weapon.
My recommendation for Guardians would be the base warlocks and 7pts each, without the stat-changes, bar move through cover. That's what I'd recommend at least.

Guardian Jetbike
* This unit consist of 3-9 Guardian Jetbikes and 1 Warlock.
* This unit has twin-linked R18" S3 AP5 weapons.

I'd say a points reduction and/or scout is needed for Jetbikes.

Rangers
* This unit has a cost of 22
* This unit has all the benefits of Pathfinders by default.
* This unit may not be upgraded to Pathfinders.

This seems like a fairly good change to me, definitely suits the fluff although they will still suffer from their existing flaws, but nonetheless, it seems like a good change.

Dire Avengers
* The basic squad consist of 4 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch.
* Dire Sword causes Instant Death on a successful leadership test.
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

<Fast Attack>

Shining Spears
* The basic cost of this unit is reduced to 30 points per model.
* The basic squad consist of 2 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch
* The unit has Hit and Run aspect ability, which is conferred to joined Exarchs.
* Exarch Withdraw power allows unit to utilized Hit and Run on a turn the assault at will, even if not all conditions are met.
* This unit has offensive grenades.

Considering their strength on the charge, Hit and Run as a base ability sounds a bit much to me. Obviously they definitely need a boost, but points decrease and hit and run and grenades and an exarch is a bit much IMHO.

Swooping Hawks
* The basic cost of this squad is reduced to 18 points.
* The basic squad consist of 4 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch.
* Any unit in the army may measure visibility, such as for purposes of Night Fighting, from a unit of Swooping Hawks.
* Any unit in the army capable of firing Barrage may use Direct Fire if the target is within line of Sight of the Swooping Hawks.
* Skyleap grants the Exarch and unit Turbo-boost instead.
* Haywire Grenades treat Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes! as Vehicle Destroyed - Wrecked.
* This unit has improved basic weapons.
* This unit no longer has Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack.
* This unit has Move Through Cover

I really approve of the points cost change here, although I don't see why you've removed their grenade pack which is one of their better and more fluffy aspects.
I also don't see the reasoning behind the Nightfighting/Barrage rules, the latter of which is liable to being abused IMHO.

Warp Spiders
* The basic cost of this squad is reduced to 18 points per model.
* The basic squad consist of 4 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch.
* The Exarch no longer has access to Surprise Assault
* The Exarch has access to Warp Crawler for +5 points. This allows the unit to re-roll any assault-phase Warp Jump rolls. Second results stay.
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit has Fleet

18pts base is a bit too cheap IMHO, particularly considering their str6 weapons. Warp Spiders are still used in competitive lists today.
Warp Crawler seems like a good ability though, big thumbs-up for that.

Vyper
* This unit is no longer open topped.
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers
* This unit has Vectored Engines

I'm struggling to see why they're no longer open-topped, when the gunner is sitting out of the (open) top. Land Speeders are, why can't Vypers? Once again, I don't see the appeal behind star engines either.
I'd recommend a decreased cost and Shuriken Cannon base. I'd also recommend trying to compare them to Land Speeders.

War Walker
* This unit is now Fast Attack rather than Heavy Support
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers
* This unit has Fleet

Whilst I strongly support their move to FA () I don't see why they should have fleet or anyone would consider a Vyper next to these, particularly for the comparative amount of firepower they can dish out, for less.

<Heavy Support>

Falcon
* This unit is now a dedicated transport and may no longer be selected as a HS choice

War Walker
* This unit is now a Fast Attach choice and may no longer be selected as a HS choice

Support Weapon
* This unit is now a squad upgrade for Guardian Defenders and may no longer be selected as a HS choice

IMHO, whilst I believe you've now under-supported the HS slot. Whilst it was obviously over-saturated before, I think now it's very much under-saturated. Space Marines have 7 HS options, whereas Eldar now have 4?

Dark Reapers
* The basic squad consist of 2 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch.
* Exarch no longer has access to any of the previous Exarch powers.
* Exarch has access to Fire Storm Exarch power.
* Exarch has access to Path of the Reaper Exarch power for +10 points. This allows the unit to select to be Slow and Purposeful or not at the start of the owning player's movement phase.
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit has Fleet

Bladestorm's a reasonable addition (if potentially OTT), however I believe it would need play-testing to properly judge its balance. However, I feel this unit is (still) seriously under-powered. For 35pts each and gaining no additional firepower from before, I can't imagine anyone using them. Also, I believe they should have the option for a dedicated transport (cue Devastators).

Fire Prism
* No additional changes

Shadow Weaver
* The dangerous terrain test is triggered immediately when next the unit moves, for any reason, and the unit is otherwise treated as if in difficult terrain for the rest of that move. This is a clarification change.

I assume you mean Nightspinner?

Wraithlord
* The heavy weapons are purchased individually and does not twin-link.
* The Wraithsword grants an additional attack, but does not allow re-rolling of failed attack rolls.
* Wraithsight changed, makes the unit Slow and Purposeful unless within 6" range of a psycher.
* Shuriken Cannon cost 5 points each.
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers
* This unit has Fleet

Once again, I don't see the reasoning behind fleet and S+P not only contradicts this but is actually a nerf for the Wraithlord. I strongly support the no-twin linking which is a good change, but now they're worse in assault (wraithsword), no more durable and cost as much.

As I said, I've tried to avoid being too critical but I'm personally just voicing my opinion on the matter and hopefully it will help. I think, unless the special characters change this, you've actually taken away some of the flavour from the army (eg. Wraithguard, Seer Councils) and made changes where they don't need to be made IMHO. The Eldar Codex can still perform well in a competitive environment and some units/vehicles have had unnecessary changes made to them, whether for good or worse.

Also, I'd be aware that you should generally try to keep things underpowered if anything, particularly considering the proposed nature of these rules and how people can react to proposed rules.

Whilst I support some of the changes and better representation of the Eldar grace, I personally still see a lot of issues with your proposed changes...

Alright to enter back into the fray...

Eldar suffer from T3 to be an excellent HTH army. Sure Initiative helps but they need some more help. There are 3 ways to improve it base WS, Attacks and AC. What I would propose is 3 classifications of aspects - HTH aspects - WS 5 and A 2 . *Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Warp Spiders, Shining Spears*
Fire aspects - BS5 and A1. *Swooping Hawks, Dark Reapers
General Aspects - A2 *Dire Avengers, Fire Dragon

Exarch WS 5 and BS 5 and A +1 and Ld 10 plus special equipment and exarch abilities.

The increase in number of attacks brings the eldar elite in line with other races (Sterngard, Vangard Vets, Wolfguard, etc.)
A banshee pulling 4 attacks, is much more likely to still be effective without the necessity of a Doom.
(Current 3 attacks each generally hitting on a 4+ and killing on a 5+ so 30 attacks result in 5 kills. Versus 40 attacks hitting on 3+ killing on 5+ resulting in aroun 9 kills.)

Banshee:

Acrobatics - This grants all banshees a 5+ invulnerable or -- 4+ invulnerable when in HTH only.
War shout- A successful leadership test by the banshees results in Furious Charge (+1 S and +1 I to the unit)
Automatically go first.

Striking Scorpions:

Shadow: Infiltrate and +1 to any cover save
Stealth : 3d6 through terrain.
Gains fleet of foot. Has plasma grenades.

Warp Spiders:

H&R: Hit and run capability
Wisp: Due to the unnatural nature of the warp movement, spiders always go at initiative.
Weapon as is but add rending and the dangerous terrain test for any successive movement by an opponent.

Shining Spears:

H&R:
At one with their bikes: Never affected by terrain for initiative. Skilled rider. Grant a 5+ invulnerable from fire.

Swooping Hawks:

Change weapon to haywire launcher/lascannon. (Dual purpose but always one or the other.)
Skyleap: Due to the nature of SH, their targets never benefit from cover.
: Always hit any target on a 4+ with grenades ( Including walkers)
Haywire grenades

Dark Reapers:
Weapon changed to S7 AP3 ROF 1 48" or S4 AP4 ROF1 Blast G36"

Quickshot - the whole unit gets +1 ROF
Crackshot - the whole unit ignores cover.

The big change here is to the weapon. It give it some flexibility and complements whatever weapon the exarch is using. If he has an EML, you have the ability to match it with some missile fire that can affect vehicles. If he has a tempest launcher you don't end up with a costly escort that does nothing. Reducing the ROF of the weapon but granting the exarch abilities to the whole squad allows them to match abilities. Note these abilities, while tied to an exarch make reapers extremely deadly so the cost of them should be high - almost prohibitive for an exarch to take both.

Dire avengers basically as is with the addition of +1 A. These should remain the baseline troops of the eldar.

Fire Dragons: basically made general because we don't need even more reason to take them by being a fire aspect and having a BS 5. +1 A should help (albeit not much) in their being a pain when they get hit with the counter attack after they blow up the tank.

Guardian Defenders - 8 pts each. Rapid fire 18" range catapults. 1 support weapon for every 8 (rounded up) in the squad - with a mandatory Warlock. All have plasma grenades for free. 5+ armor save.
Support weapon costs: Shuriken cannon: Free Scatter Laser: +5, EML +10 , Starcannon +15 (rof 3), Bright lance +20. Base squad goes back to previious of 5 but plus the warlock so 65 points gets you 5 guardians with one shuriken cannon and one warlock without an ability. The max is 185 for 20 guardians with 3 shuriken cannons plus one warlock without an ability.

BS is still 3 because a guardian based force should depend on a farseer as a crutch moreso than DA. 5+ AC because there is a certain value in wounds. 185 for 34 S4 shots and 9 S6 shots with 20 wounds versus 30 S4 shots and 10 wounds albeit with a 4+ save. Besides the value of a warlock's conceal should be considered. I mean 20 AP 5 wounds will kill a 20-man defender squad but then again on average it will kill 10 dire avengers with ther 4+ AC. So points wise, they are about equivalent.

If everyone is hell bent on reducing the cost of Defenders - then make them a liability on KP missions - Guardians are emergency troops, while they are good in a fight they are the architects scientists and artisans of the craftworld. The loss of them will cause a severe hurt on the craftworld, therefore every guardian squad lost counts as +1 KP for being lost.

If you do that then feel free to up their BS to 4 and their SV to 4+ as there is now a real gamble to going guardian heavy with any force.

My thoughts in Green

Mahtamori wrote:
<Wargear>
* Shuriken Catapults are R18" S3 AP5 Assault 2
* Dire Avenger Shuriken Catapults remain the same
* Shuriken Cannons are R24" S4 AP4 Assault 4.
* Lasblasters are R24" S3 AP5 Assault 3
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers
* Haywire Grenades treat Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes! as Vehicle Destroyed - Wrecked.
* Vectored Engines (vehicle upgrade) allows a vehicle to deep strike, with a scatter of 1D6".

IMO that will make guardians suriken weapons pretty useless and would only get used the turn or two before they get assaulted (and wouldnt be too effective). I'm not too keen on the cannons either, maybe S5? Everything else seems okay

<Army special rules>
* All models are Fleet, including Walkers and Wraiths.
* All infantry and jump infantry have Move Through Cover.
* All unit leaders are psychers, and help with Wraithsight.
* All Exarch powers are psychic powers and function identically to Warlock powers.
* All Aspect Warriors are joined by an Exarch at no additional cost.

I wouldnt give wriaths feet, but theres no harm in giving it to walkers, everything else seems good

<Supernatural powers>
* Mind War causes single wound to one model within line of sight and 18". No saves of any kind may be made.
* Eldritch Storm has infinite range, does not scatter, requires no line of sight.
* Blade Storm changes name to Fire Storm. Increases the rate of fire by +1 for every full 2 shots it's normally able to fire, at the expense of needing to cool off next turn.
* Conceal grants Stealth USR, and may be used in open terrain.

I like mind war as it is but with no cover saves allowed, even with those powers eldritch storm is still a bit "meh" in my opinion. the name Firestorm is already used in planet strike, i feel that giving it to several units will steal the DA's thunder.

<HQ>

Farseer.
* Knows two psychic powers, may cast one.
* Venerable upgrade replaces Soul Stone. Venerable Farseers know all psychic powers and may cast two per turn.
* Farseer cost increased to 80 points base.
* Venerable Farseer upgrade cost set to +50 points
* Up to three Warlocks may be joined to the Farseer as a retinue.
* Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon or Wave Serpent as dedicated transport

+25 gets you 2 free powers, +50 gives you a free 20 point upgrade and access to every power, this strikes me as being a little too much. I like the retinue though but am afraid it might be a bit to deathstar-y

Warlocks
* These may not be purchased indepentently.
* These units may not be upgraded to Spiritseers, unless accompanying a Wraithguard unit.

sounds fair

Autarch.
* Master Strategist also includes the effects as seen in Eldrad's Divination.
* Move Through Cover.

is this including all the previously discussed stratagems? if so I ike it

Avatar.
* This unit is now Fleet.

Good shout

Named characters.
* These are righteously ignored for the moment.

<Dedicated Transports>

Wave Serpent
* This unit is an assault vehicle. Models transported inside count as disembarking from a stationary vehicle for purposes of assault.
* This unit has access to Energy Fields as an optional upgrade for +20 points
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers

Not a fan of just simply making them an assault vehicle, not sure why though. everything else is good

Falcon
* This unit is a gunship. The turret-mounted weapons are treated as a single weapon for purposes of determining which weapons may fire at a given speed.
* This unit has a carry capacity of 12
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers

Don't like the big capacity, they are primarily battle tanks, not for transporting huge units. maybe just add a ravager style rule "if the vehicle moves 12" or less it may fire all weapons"?

<Elites>

Fire Dragons.
* Basic unit size is 4 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch.
* Exarch is a psycher.
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

like

Harlequin Troupe
* This unit may also select Falcon and Wave Serpent as dedicated transport

like

Howling Banshees
* This unit has Acrobatic with or without Exarch. Is not conferred to Autarch.
* Exarch power War Shout reduces the weapon skill of all models in base contact with Exarch to 1. No leadership test is made.
* Exarch has access to Banshee Veil (grants Scout USR to unit) for +10 points.
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

maybe all models have WS reduced by 1? I dont see much need for scout but doesnt mean it cant be there

Striking Scorpions
* This unit has Infiltrate with or without Exarch. Is not conferred to Autarch.
* Exarch has access to Defend Exarch power for the same cost as Dire Avengers.
* This unit has Haywire Grenades
* Haywire Grenades treat Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes! as Vehicle Destroyed - Wrecked.
* This unit has Fleet
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

like

Wraithguard
* Unit consist of 3-10 Wraithguard and 1 Warlock.
* This unit may not be chosen as a Troop choice.
* Wraithsight changed, makes the unit Slow and Purposeful unless within 6" range of a psycher.
* This unit count as having Power Fists in close combat.
* Warlock may be upgraded to a Boneweaver for +20 points. Boneweavers grant Wraithguard and Wraithlord within 6" Feel No Pain (4+), but may not choose Warlock psychic powers.
* This unit has Fleet
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

I dont like them not being allowed to count as troops, unless this is specifically inked to a iyanden character

<Troop>

Guardian Defenders
* This unit consist of 5-20 Guardian Defenders and 1 Warlock, and are upgraded in quantities of 5 Guardian Defenders.
* This unit has R18" S3 AP5 weapons.
* Guardian Defenders have BS4
* For every 5 Guardian Storm in the unit, two members must will crew one heavy weapon platform at the point cost of the weapon.
* One weapon platform may be upgraded to a Support Weapon Platform at the point cost of the weapon.
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

I dont like the BS4, I'd go for units of 5-15 and 1 heavy weapon platform per 5 guys

Guardian Storm
* This unit consist of 10-20 Guardian Storm and 1 Warlock, and are upgraded in quantities of 5 Guardian Storm.
* Guardian Storm have WS4
* Guardian Storm have Scouts USR
* Guardian Storm have offensive and Haywire Grenades
* Haywire Grenades treat Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes! as Vehicle Destroyed - Wrecked.
* For every 5 Guardian Storm in the unit, one model must be given an additional special weapon (flamer or fusion gun) which does not replace current armament
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

other than WS4 I like it

Guardian Jetbike
* This unit consist of 3-9 Guardian Jetbikes and 1 Warlock.
* This unit has twin-linked R18" S3 AP5 weapons.

They will be really quite poor if they only have 3 models with S3 guns

Rangers
* This unit has a cost of 22
* This unit has all the benefits of Pathfinders by default.
* This unit may not be upgraded to Pathfinders.

I always take the upgrade anyway so I see no problem with this

Dire Avengers
* The basic squad consist of 4 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch.
* Dire Sword causes Instant Death on a successful leadership test.
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

I'd go for a toughness test by the wounded model, other than that its good

<Fast Attack>

Shining Spears
* The basic cost of this unit is reduced to 30 points per model.
* The basic squad consist of 2 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch
* The unit has Hit and Run aspect ability, which is conferred to joined Exarchs.
* Exarch Withdraw power allows unit to utilized Hit and Run on a turn the assault at will, even if not all conditions are met.
* This unit has offensive grenades.

like

Swooping Hawks
* The basic cost of this squad is reduced to 18 points.
* The basic squad consist of 4 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch.
* Any unit in the army may measure visibility, such as for purposes of Night Fighting, from a unit of Swooping Hawks.
* Any unit in the army capable of firing Barrage may use Direct Fire if the target is within line of Sight of the Swooping Hawks.
* Skyleap grants the Exarch and unit Turbo-boost instead.
* Haywire Grenades treat Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes! as Vehicle Destroyed - Wrecked.
* This unit has improved basic weapons.
* This unit no longer has Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack.
* This unit has Move Through Cover

I like it, what about skyleap/movement stuff?

Warp Spiders
* The basic cost of this squad is reduced to 18 points per model.
* The basic squad consist of 4 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch.
* The Exarch no longer has access to Surprise Assault
* The Exarch has access to Warp Crawler for +5 points. This allows the unit to re-roll any assault-phase Warp Jump rolls. Second results stay.
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit has Fleet

does this include the nightspinner style effect from the weapons?

Vyper
* This unit is no longer open topped.
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers
* This unit has Vectored Engines

I prefer the jetbike route, but this isn't too bad

War Walker
* This unit is now Fast Attack rather than Heavy Support
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers
* This unit has Fleet

like

<Heavy Support>

Falcon
* This unit is now a dedicated transport and may no longer be selected as a HS choice

War Walker
* This unit is now a Fast Attach choice and may no longer be selected as a HS choice

Support Weapon
* This unit is now a squad upgrade for Guardian Defenders and may no longer be selected as a HS choice

like
like
like

Dark Reapers
* The basic squad consist of 2 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch.
* Exarch no longer has access to any of the previous Exarch powers.
* Exarch has access to Fire Storm Exarch power.
* Exarch has access to Path of the Reaper Exarch power for +10 points. This allows the unit to select to be Slow and Purposeful or not at the start of the owning player's movement phase.
* This unit has Move Through Cover
* This unit has Fleet

like

Fire Prism
* No additional changes

Shadow Weaver
* The dangerous terrain test is triggered immediately when next the unit moves, for any reason, and the unit is otherwise treated as if in difficult terrain for the rest of that move. This is a clarification change.

Just change it from a dangerous terrain test to "roll a dice for each model in the unit the next time any model moves for any reason, remove a model for every 1 rolled, They also count as moving through difficult terrain.

Wraithlord
* The heavy weapons are purchased individually and does not twin-link.
* The Wraithsword grants an additional attack, but does not allow re-rolling of failed attack rolls.
* Wraithsight changed, makes the unit Slow and Purposeful unless within 6" range of a psycher.
* Shuriken Cannon cost 5 points each.
* Star Cannons are all cheaper. For every model capable of wielding on, the cost is reduced to the same level as Scatter Lasers
* This unit has Fleet

apart from fleet I like it

NEW ABILITIES
Fleet of Foot – Eldar roll 2D6 and pick the highest result when they run.
Exarch Abilities – Exarchs grant +1 WS to their unit when they charge.
Phoenix Lords gain a 4+ invulnerable save and make one squad of their Aspect scoring.
Dark Reapers – Reaper Launcher 2nd firing mode, 48” range S7 AP3 H1.

CHANGES
Shuriken Catapults – Range 18”
Farseer – Mind War – No cover saves. Fortune - increase range to 18”. (+5 points) Guide – increase range to 18”. Eldritch Storm – range 36” S6 AP- large blast, pinning, vehicles are hit on rear armor and spun in a random direction.
Avatar – Inspiring Presence - Eldar units with line of sight to an Avatar gain stubborn. Wailing Doom has 18” range. Increase the Avatar’s save to 2+. (+15 points)
Warp Spiders – death spinner - 18” range, Surprise Assault – grants infiltrate.
Shining Spear’s – Laser Lance and Star Lance have range 12”.
Warlocks- Conceal – During a friendly shooting phase, if the Warlock passes a leadership check, this unit and units targeting this unit must use the night vision rules during shooting. Conceal cannot affect units mounted on jet bikes or transports, and lasts for one full turn.
Support Weapon Platform – Guardian unit attachment. D Cannon – 24” Sx AP1 H1 (+5 points). Vibro Cannon – 36” S4 AP- H1, pinning, no cover saves. 1d6 hits on each unit along LOS, for each weapon that hits. Vehicles take one glancing hit for each cannon that hits. Shadow Weaver gains the monofilament rule, +5 points.
Spirit Stones become standard equipment on all vehicles.
Shuriken Cannons become standard equipment on Falcons, Wave Serpents, Vypers, and War Walkers. Other weapon upgrades have reduced point cost by 5, 10 for twin linked.
Wraith Lords – 2nd weapon of the same type is no longer twin linked. If a Spiritseer is within 12” of the Wraith lord, the 2nd weapon may target a different unit. Similar point cost reduction for weaponry. Wraith sword is free.
Falcon – BS 4
Vypers – Scout
Swooping Hawks – They may deploy by deep strike first turn.

Shuriken Catapult - The reason I put 18" S3 is mostly moderating it from being 24" S3. Essentially I think 24" S3 Assault 2 is reasonable for the price, but having such long range is touching slightly counter the Eldar nature of being close ranged. The other part is that I wanted Dire Avenger catapult to be +1S, and Storm Bolters on troop choice that can Fire Storm seemed a bit...
Shuriken Cannon - I simply want this weapon to be defensive. Upgrading the under-slung isn't always an upgrade and can work contrary to how you'd use it. Additionally, Eldar have a very large amount of S6, so if you want that you're better off purchasing Scatter or Star.
Star Cannon - Yeah, the armour piercing is dubious whether it's even better than twice as many shots. In fact, it's only worth it if you decrease the chance of saving by 3 die pips or more. This weapon on it's own deserves some discussion I think. S6 AP3 Heavy 1 Blast?

Walkers Fleet - simple form. Also opens up for a future melee-walker type with the same chassis.
Wraiths Fleet - more function than form this time. This is to better support swordlords and since 'guards now have powerfists you may want to assault them.
Wraiths - I might've sneaked it in, but the 1-in-6 of not functioning is removed and replaced with 6-in-6 of being slower instead. Also Spirit Seers are removed, but the over all saturation of psychers improved. They shouldn't be left on their own.
Free exarchs - several marine and imperial guard units get their sergeants completely free, and those aren't just better at fighting but also improve the unit's morale (something Eldar lesser leaders don't). Additionally, I don't think it should be neither punishment nor choice to have a unit leader, all units should have one. The only real conundrum here is what to do with Fire Dragons - just about the only aspect warrior which deserves a bit of extra flat increase to squad cost, but not to ppm cost.

Mind War - I dislike the incessant rolling. I edited it a lot. I think some of the edits it was causing instant death as well.
Eldritch Storm - it's a power without much oomph. If it's going to scatter it should be higher strength or cause additional effects.
Fire Storm - I changed the wording because I dislike it. Blade Storm sounds like a close-combat power. Additionally, I intentionally made the wording difficult 'cause I do NOT wish to see +100% fire power on EMLs Open to suggestions on name, of course. The reason I also gave it to Dark Reapers was simply that their exarch is a selfish ba***d with his powers and he needs to support his unit more. Blade Storm is ideal for Dark Reapers whom do not always get to shoot at a juicy target more than once or twice per game.

Farseer - Yeah, 80 points is too low, I tought I stuck it down to 90 points. The reasoning here is to allow more freedom, but not to punish the player for it too much. The Eldar psychic powers are currently costed to be fair if it's the only one you intend to use, buying more than what you use ends up being too expensive. It's a point of discussion, but I don't think you should take the powers at their face value, but rather consider that each additional power you buy devalues the rest that you have.
Warlock retinue - Nope, not deathstarry at all. It's actually a nerf to the deathstar. You are now severely limited in the number of Warlocks you can have compared to earlier and the Farseer must stay with them. Retinue does give the Farseer overall more protection, though.
Suggestion: Farseer 95 points base, Venerable Farseer +50 points but adds only one spell use and one spell known.

Autarch - Nope, not including the other stratagems. I personally don't think the Autarch needs to go on a power-trip.
Named Characters - Nope, I really mean righteously. I loath named characters.

Wave Serpents - I noted only changes. All squads that could previously choose Wave Serpents would still be able to. The reason for the Assault on the Wave Serpents is simple: Banshees are can openers, what do you do if you machanize a CC army and need fly swatters? Force them to stand around idle for a turn? Force them to run? Having only assault ramps for Banshees severely limits the diversity for this specific type of army and forces an inhomogeneous build.
Falcon - Yes, it's a bit stacking it on, I admit. I see it like this: you sacrifice some protection and the assault ramps to gain the firepower of an additional gun. Take the Wave Serpent and the Falcon and sit them next to each other the way I wrote it. The difference is thus: Falcon costs one heavy weapon more and can fire one heavy weapon more, the Wave Serpent may take Energy Fields for the cost of a heavy weapon, has assault ramp, and has 50% more efficient heavy weapon.
I simply chose to make the difference that one has assault ramp and the other hasn't. Additionally, I didn't want small BAVU Falcons, which simply would be devastating.
Falcon Fire - Yeah, Gorechild, that's a better wording. Guess I'm just leaving it wide open for different heavy weapons on the under-slung.

Howling Banshees - I simply want each unit to also be viable in a non-mechanized environment, although I know scouts is contagious onto dedicated transports. Reducing all models WS to 1 was of course the original plan, but since it now auto-succeeds on a unit that's quite likely to wipe the target out, I felt it was a bit over the top I don't agree with you, Just Dave, that War Shout was more balanced since nearly every advice you'll ever find on it is "it's a waste of points, avoid" - a reasonable compromise would be that it's the EXARCH doing the rolling and not the enemy.
Striking Scorpions - Just Dave, I'm operating under the calculated assumption that Eldar units cost way too much. Haywire Grenades isn't a big change, though, and mostly there to tone down the extreme reliance on Fire Dragons. Plasma Grenades vs Haywire Grenades on AVX/X/10 vehicles we can debate whether glancing hits are worth it over doubled chance of penetrate.
Wraithguard - since they've now got power fists I felt having them as a troop choice would be a bit over-much for Eldar. Iyanden named character is ideal since that army has a very significantly different approach to combat compared to Ulthwé and Biel-Tan, an Iyanden character would shift the army considerably and as such wouldn't be as much a min-max choice.
Harlequins - GW blatantly didn't alter the Harlequins in such a way they needed to fit in to 5th edition due to the CWE codex, and as such they are a gimmick in BOTH codexes. I know I didn't do much, either. With the changes I've suggested, though, they must have a DT since there are no non-DTs able to transport.
Wraithguard Power Fists - Wraithguards are made out of the hardest material in the universe, they carry guns which are described to be of crushing weight, and they tower over the tallest space marines. How their weapons are not ignoring armour is beyond me. Now, doubled strength in melee is a tad much with S5 I admit, but I felt that striking last is sort of fitting - even if not exactly consistent with Wraithlords.

Guardians - BS4 is a throwback to me realizing the new catapult's quite crap. 5-15 is probably the best number, even though I feel it is an odd number to choose. The current codex is very short on information on Guardians in general, but Eldar live a long time and aren't anywhere near the cannon fodder you see in other armies, with Farseers to guide them having experienced Guardians and even aspect warriors surviving to choose new paths in life are not at all unlikely. The gist of the matter is that while they lack the intense training of the short lived humans and the even more short lived fire warrior, the Eldar have significantly longer time of training. Calling them civilians is crude since the entire craftworld is an army ready for mobilization.
I am adamantly against anything that reduces Guardians in points. Fluff should be reflected and fluff should also make "sense"
Rangers - yeah, I'm at a loss for what's good. However, removing the mandatory upgrade felt right, and I sneakily reduced their price by a single point

Jetbikes - Naturally, under-slung upgrades aren't removed. Here's the shuriken problem crystalized, though; Guardians are a basic infantry in desperate need of longer range while Jetbikes are in desperate need to stronger fire power. They don't exactly go hand in hand.

What if Guardian Defenders had a de-sniperized Long Rifle? Say, between 24" and 36" S5 AP5 Assault 1?

Dire Sword - It's a sneaky Force Weapon Toughness test works as well.

Shining Spears - Just Dave, misuse of Hit And Run will get these killed. Point taken on the exarch power, though. I'm just not certain whether the point drop in itself makes them worth it without being thrown an additional bone.
Swooping Hawks - Yup, it's in there, Gorechild. Just Dave, I'm removing the grenade pack for two reasons: it that it doesn't scale with number of models and thus mess up the point balance. On the other hand they only land once now and the squad set up is based on purchasing squads not squad members... The Nightfighting/Barrage is meant to be abused. The indirect fire weapons in the Eldar arsenal aren't used very much and the nightfighting supplies the Eldar army with something it doesn't have at all so far. Gives a neat amount of synergy. Do note, however, that weapon fire range is always drawn from the firing weapon, not the swooping hawks.
Warp Spiders - No, Gorechild, it doesn't include Nightspinner effects. Just Dave, they are used, yes, but often with comment or criticism of being a bit too expensive. Again this is a throw back on the logic that everything in the codex (bar Farseer) is a bit too expensive but I have no clue how much. Maybe 20 points is a better cost?

Vyper - Just Dave, I tend not to look too closely at Space Marines, it hurts my brain. This isn't a dismissal of your reasoning, though, but it's rather that Vypers get eaten alive as soon as something looks at them and open-topped is the number one reason for them being a liability. If you can work tactics enough to force the enemy not to shoot at them they can make their points worth, though, but that's presenting your enemy with more urgent or better targets, or simply counting on his or her inability to fathom the rewards. Like Gorechild I do prefer to take the jetbikes route, though, but I tried to keep it simple

War Walkers - These tend to end up slower. This grace is what makes Vyper Jetbikes even more interesting a route since that'd make the Vypers faster and more able to dodge back at the expense of some firepower (depending on weapon) for a comparable point cost. Again, fleet is mostly there for form, just in case some Eldar youngster thinks "hey let's use these Wraithlord arms on the War Walkers!"

Heavy Support Section - there are plenty of good units in Forge World line up that are good candidates for this section in a regular Eldar codex. Add in Warp Hunter and Shadow Spectres and the section isn't so poorly off.
Dark Reapers - I believe I'd need some playtesting on these, period. I must admit I don't have too much experience with them as is.
Nightspinner - yeah, that I do mean
Wraithlord - I think you will find that two attacks with re-roll on failed to hit is worse than three attacks with no re-roll.

OK, I am not going to respond to this thread now. In all honestly, I disapprove of a vast number of changes you are proposing to the Codex which does not need such over-whelming and sweeping changes IMHO. I apologise as this will come off as rude, but it would've seemed a lot more rude had I responded to the ideas themselves.

I don't want to rain on your parade and my responding to specifics would only serve to aggravate myself and you, so I'm going to leave this thread alone and let you continue as you were...

Good day to you sirs.

As I read this thread, I see many intelligent contibutors, and many creative ideas.

As ithe thread has progressed however, I think it is becoming a wasted effort.

Not that it isn't a very good effort, because it is.

The reason that most of the ideas we have come up will never be used in a codex is because it is too much of a departure from established eldar traits.

See the thing is that you have to write a codex that will be acceptable to everyone. Including the people that are already happy with eldar right now, and everyone that will play against eldar armies.

Please don't take this as a complaint. It isn't. It is just that the number of changes discussed here will make the eldar into a completely different army on the table. The silent majority doesn't want that. They want subtle small changes that are easy to understand and digest, and help the army in games and advance the fluff in an interesting way.

You won't be able to see this new found wisdom by reading the ideas I have expressed here in the thread. I only came to this understanding recently by talking to a couple of very experienced players.

The structure of the army should not change. Stats for 99% of the units should not change. 95% of the weapons should not change. Point costs, and matching abilities to 5th edition rules and 5th edition competitive codices are where the changes should come from.

ArmyC wrote:
The structure of the army should not change. Stats for 99% of the units should not change. 95% of the weapons should not change. Point costs, and matching abilities to 5th edition rules and 5th edition competitive codices are where the changes should come from.

This is a good point - the issue of addressing the imbalances through cost or enhanced abilities (to justify the cost) need to be addressed. However I don't think that additional abilities should not change. If I look at the SM codex for example, there were a number of new and enhanced capabilities that were added that have put the pressure on the codex. If you will note, rarely is cost really brought up in these discussions so that part of a balanced build is never addressed. So I would restate the premise of this blog:

1. Make all eldar choices competitive choices. In this there is an attempt to improve (or reduce costs) of the various types of choices to make them a competitive choice.
2. Follow the fluff of the eldar to make the choices make sense.

As an example of this lets just look at the guardian defender.

Premise: The defender is overpriced an ineffective for the current cost. Problem - survivability, limited range of the catapult.

Solutions: Raise the save to 4+ . Good point it directly addresses the survivability question. Bad point- it puts defenders in the same line as aspect warriors.

Solution: Raise the cat to Assault 2 18" range Directly address the limited effectiveness of a 12" ranged weapon. Bad point - it stomps all over the dire avengers.

Solution: Improve the BS to 4. Bad point it stomps directly over the value of a dire avenger.

Solution: Allow a higher density of weapon platforms. It does address the limited range effectiveness.

While one of these solutions is fine in and of itself. If you combine them, you end up going back to the last Eldar codex and making Dire Avengers not playable.

So what I would recommend would be 5+ save BS 3 and rapid fire catapults - these are not good but it leaves room for Dire Avengers. This addresses the need for additional firepower but also leaves room for a guide seer to greatly enhance their firepower. Now the seconde is to allow 1 free shuriken cannon per 8 guardians (rounded up). This gives them a different role than DAs, also it allows them to come close to the firepower that EJBs can put out there with shuriken cannons. Less manueverability, less resilient but more wounds to insulate them. 20 defenders with 3 shuriken cannons for 160 points is
reasonable with rapid fire yielding 17 S4 shots plus 9 S6 shots at a BS 3. While it doesn't overplay Dire Avengers who put out 22 shots (33 with bladestorm) at S4 with a BS of 4.

The goal is not to make defenders the be-all-end-all choice but it is likewise intended to make them viable.

Well we come full circle.

Rapid fire is not a good idea. It gives essentially no benefit to the defender squad as they must be immobile to have ranger greater than 12". It is completely contrary to eldar mobility. Much better:

Bs3, 5+ sv, 6-12, current price.

1 platform per 6 guardians

catapults are S3 AP5 R24 Assault2.

The catapults will never be effective shooting without the support of a farseer's doom, but they can at least shoot at targets which aren't going to demolish the defender unit the next turn. The entire point of the two platforms is to help guardians chip in to solve the problem of ranged anti tank for the current codex. That being said, the problems with the current codex are, in my mind, as follows:

Guardians
Swooping Hawks
Shining Spears
Warp Spiders
Vypers
Dark Reapers
Heavy Support FoC overpopulation
Rangers
Wraithguard
Storm Guardians
Wraithlords
Autarchs
Psyker nullification
Eldrad
Phoenix Lords
Avatar
Elite Slot (really, the 3x Dragon Wagon 'requirement')

All of these units have problems which either limit their effectiveness or make them too effective. They need to be, in varying degrees, repointed, have their stats adjusted, have their rules adjusted, have their FoC slot adjusted, or have their place in the codex reconsidered.

I agree with some of the previous posters that some of the changes proposed lately are quite absurd. The default position of a change to a unit should be a re-pricing. If no re-pricing of a unit will make it desirable, then further changes should be considered, but changes for the sake of changes is un-needed.

Case in point: The wave serpent. The abilities of this transport are the envy of many marine players. It is, in many cases, as tough as a land raider. The idea that it should have assault capability and cost less than 250 points it pretty absurd. This is a prime example of a unit which is fine in the current codex, aside from the price. Adding assault capabilities to the wave serpent is a bad bad plan.

Example of a unit which needs extreme work: swooping hawks. Point them at 10 ppm and they are still pretty bad. Bad in shooting, bad in assault, not tough. Even if 10 of them cost 100pts, I'd rather have a current guardian unit so at least i can claim an objective with my 100 point investment.

The Avatar is a good example of a unit which needs minor rule tweaking to bring it up to speed. It could endure a complete redesign or massive buff - but why do we need to do that? Much simpler: Fleet, Eternal Warrior, 2+ save.

Agreed with most of the statements.

To simplistically argue the Catapult. Taking a catapult to S3 A2 also impacts on every eldar vehicle. So bikes are going to be putting out 2 TL S3 shots.

I'm not against giving cats the storm bolter profile - I just don't think it is realistic.

Eldar is a Xeno codex, it is therefore required to be inferior to imperials in most meaningful ways - thats just the way it is.

So, I'd rather have S4 AP5 R24 Assault2, but I don't think we'll get it, so S3 is much more likely.

And, R24 brings it in line with the shuriken cannon, which is great for jetbike squadrons - they become very mobile and shooty, as opposed to as currently, when they require much fiddling with JSJ, and sniping with just the cannons.

Gwyidion wrote:I'm not against giving cats the storm bolter profile - I just don't think it is realistic.

Eldar is a Xeno codex, it is therefore required to be inferior to imperials in most meaningful ways - thats just the way it is.

So, I'd rather have S4 AP5 R24 Assault2, but I don't think we'll get it, so S3 is much more likely.

And, R24 brings it in line with the shuriken cannon, which is great for jetbike squadrons - they become very mobile and shooty, as opposed to as currently, when they require much fiddling with JSJ, and sniping with just the cannons.

Alright so you have just made my army be EJB. 12" move + 24" range + 6 " assault jetbike move. I have the ability to field 12 bikes, firing off 12 S6 shots and 16 TL S3 shots out to 24" range. So 6 S6 hits and 12 S3 hits... tack on a doom seer and I should be averaging around 12 wounding shots a turn and not allow an opponent to get within 24" range. Sounds like our simple fix will make EJB the choice to spam and abuse. That is my primary reason for leaving it S4 and making it rapid fire 18". The idea of a guardian defender needing mobility is contrary to me. If you want mobility, you take the DAs that is it. If however you want an overwhelming ability... walk 20 guardians within 12" and rapid fire them while still unloading your platforms. I don't argue that the nature of Eldar is mobility, just that I will argue that a DEFENDER needs mobility. You are still mobile if your primary is the bright lances or pulse lasers shooting at vehicles or infact still being able to move and put out 12 S6 shots out to 36" range is pretty good.

I don't think that EJB list is overpowered - you're still paying ... how many? ppm for a MEQ save that basically can't get cover on those stands?

Not to mention if they ever get caught in CC you can write them off.

In my mind, you take guardians to work in the back field, and you take DAs to be mechanized troops that can pile out and lay down a hail of fire.

I also support bladestorm adding rending to ASCs, and adding a rule making Def. guardian platforms disallow taking transports.

I guess my view is that DAs are fine as they are. Heck they along with fire dragons seem to define every competitive eldar build. So given the premise that DA are fine as they exist today in both power and cost, I am arguing that the guardian fixes need to take that into account and not push us into enhancements to DAs to keep them competitive.

I think the reason DAs define competitive builds is because they form the cheapest scoring cargo for a tank. The "most WAAC" list I've seen most people agree on is spammed 5-man DA squads with spammed FD squads all in wave serpents and falcons. DAs could use a boost, just to keep up with inflation.

Gwyidion wrote:Well we come full circle.

After god know's how many posts over two threads it was going to happen eventually
It seems to be one topic that gets alot of debate going though, to me this suggests that its one of the main problems.

my suggestion:

Defender Guardians: 75 points

Stats: Warlock (as now), Guardians WS/BS3 T3 5+

Unit size: 5 Guardians, 1 Warlock, 1 Shuriken Cannon weapon platform

Special Rules: Fleet

Wargear:Shuriken catapult R18" S4 Assault 2

Options: Up to 5 more guardians may be purchased for 8 points per model, If all 5 additional guardians are taken, another Shuriken Cannon weapons platform may be taken for free.
Any shuriken cannon weapons platform may be upgraded to: Star cannon (x points), scatter laser (x points) ect ect...
The warlock may take any of the options from the warlock entry.
If the unit includes 2 heavy weapons, they may both be replaced with a single D-Cannon for x points, Vibro cannon for x points ect...
May take WS dedicated transport.

Unit can't fire heavy weapons if it moved, Heavy weapons take up 1 transport capacity, D-cannon's ect take up 2.

Dire Avengers: 80 points

Stats: As now (BS/WS4 4+) 5++ from shimmershield

Unit size: 5 Dire Avengers, 1 Dire Avenger Exarch

Special Rules: Fleet, Aspect Warrior

Wargear:Shuriken catapult R18" S4 Assault 2, Exarch has shimmershield + 2 catapults

Options: Up to 6 more Dire Avengers may be purchased for 12 points per model
The Exarch may take any of the following powers: Bladestorm (as now), Defend (as now)
May take WS or Falcon dedicated transport

Aspect Warrior - unit can regroup as long as it is above 25% of its starting strength.

Lets simplify our arguement.

Shruriken Catapult - 18" A2 This is the base DA Catapult and combined with their BS, makes them particularly deadly. All this for 12 pts

Shuriken Catapult - 12" A2 The guardian weapon. With guide it can still be deadly but it defnitely suffers when you consider orc shootas were 24" Rapid Fire when this first came out. Between the 5th Ed running and the overwhelming power of HTH in 5th ED. This just seems underpowered for the cost.

So the choices are:

18" A2 S4 - make all of them equal counting on the difference in BS to show the difference of aspect warriors or guardians. Risk potentially making bikes and vehicles have too much firepower combined with their mobility. This runs the risk of making Guardians to powerful and probably should result in an increase in cost.

18" Rapid Fire S4 - It provides the additional range but at the cost of mobility. Sure you can move the defenders back but then you get no fire because you go down to 12" range. This provides a boost to every vehicle and EJB but not as overwhelming as the A2 S4 variety.

18" A1 S4 - well it gives them the range but does not provide a mass effect of firepower. Potentially good for guardians but it is an absolute nerf for EJB and vehicle mounts.

18" A2 S3 - makes them equal in range to DA but lowers the S to 3 so they will not be as effective. Still provides the range to EJB and vehicle mounts but is definitely not that impressive. Other dislike - is that it differentiates the catapult as a higher powered round available for DAs.


My choice in order would be. 18" Rapid Fire, 18" A2 S3, 18" A2 S4, 18" A1 S4. This improves the defender but does not make it a mobile threat - placing more emphasis on the weapons platforms within the unit but also providing a still nasty punch.

Fluff explanation: A Dire Avenger is following the path of the warrior and this allows him/her to become one with his catapult. This allows for accurate fire without any hesitation. Thus in the hands of a dire avenger a catapult yields a ROF 2 Assault 18". Defenders, EJB and the like all have the same catapult but not the same skill with the weapon. This allows them to accurately fire out to 18" but they must be stationary but once they get the enemy to point blank range, the ability to fire off deadly accurate fire goes up.

My idea

Regular Shuriken Catapult
18" S4 AP5 Assault 2

Dire Avenger Shuriken Catapult
18" S4 AP5 Assault 2, rending

I despise rapid fire for any Eldar weapon. I also feel that it is a slap in the face to guardians, who are currently, and without over-exaggeration, a joke, specifically for their weapon. (short range dying race meme, anyone?)

The only problem I have with Oriallis' solution is that it falls into the path of "rending" as the solution of so many problems.

Alternatively, a solution could be

S. cats: S4 AP5 Assault2 R18"

A. S. Cats: S5 Ap4 Assault 2 R18"


Thinking on that suggestion, I like it, because it removes some dependence of Dire Avengers on Farseer's doom.

I like the schema in Gore's post. Except for two changes I would make - Regular guardian platform weaposn are still classed as 'assault' weapons, due to the grav platform, but the heavy support weapons are move-or-fire. The other change is that platforms of any kind prohibit the use of a transport. Keep Troops toting S. cats as the realm of DAs.

Also, I'm sure it goes without saying that the heavy support platforms will be fixed/upgraded.

The problem with S5 catapults is that it wrecks them as defensive weapons. Let's just throw this one out there:
Range 12" S4 Ap5 Assault 3
Naturally, it goes without saying that with this weapon profile on relatively cheap troops, armour save of 5+ is kept and so is the basic profile.
The only problem I see with this solution is how to treat Dire Avengers with Blade Storm. Granted, Blade Storm could still provide +1 shot, but it feels both over the top at the same time as punishing a bit too much on the non-firing round.
There are, of course, other possible powers for them, but still...

Actually, that wouldn't wreck them as defensive weapons as only the Avenger cats would be S5; the normal catapults would still be S4 Ap5 but with 18" range.

Frankly there are so many possibilities with the shuriken catapults I have no idea what to make them into. The one i like personally is to keep them as is, but give defenders additional platforms (which should be kept as assault weapons).

Of course. +1S on Avengers. I'm actually proud I kept my post so much to the point considering the amount of whiskey.

I think that the reference in Gwydion's post to heavy weapons are support weapons. They follow the rules for artillery more or less, although I do think that Eldar should be able to run when they tug these beasts along.

Support Platform - through clever and sophisticated use of anti-gravity technology, these relatively compact platforms are able to bear the weight of the dense and oft gravitationally unstable massive weapons.
A support platform follows all the rules for artillery, but the unit is fully capable of running when crewing an Eldar Support Platform.

Ok, so is this is how the Guardian entry would be then? because frankly, I feel it would be good if we could become finished with guardians.
Guardian Defender squad: 75 points

Stats: Warlock (as now), Guardians (as now)

Unit size: 5 Guardians, 1 Warlock, 1 shuriken cannon weapon platform. A heavy weapon mounted on a weapon platform count as an assault weapon in all respects.

Special Rules: Fleet

Wargear: Shuriken catapult R18" S4 Ap5 Assault 2 (While Avenger Shuriken Catapult is the same but S5)

Options: Up to 5 more guardians may be purchased for 8 points per model, If all 5 additional guardians are taken, another shuriken cannon weapons platform may be taken for free.
Any shuriken cannon weapons platform may be upgraded to: star cannon +20 pts, scatter laser +10 pts, bright lance +25 pts, Eldar missile launcher +15 pts.
The warlock may take any of the options from the warlock entry.
If the unit includes 2 weapon platforms, they may both be replaced with a single support platform: D-Cannon +25 pts, vibro cannon +15 pts or doomweaver +20 pts.
A support platform follows all the rules for artillery, with the exception that the unit is capable of running when crewing an Eldar Support Platform.
May take a Wave Serpent dedicated transport, unless including a support platform.

That sounds pretty good, actually.

I do think Warlocks should be LD9, at least, though. They are psychers, after all, and quite experienced and dedicated.

Oh, and we still need to take a good look at Star Cannons. Compared to Scatter Laser, it's only better if it is able to bring you more than 50% worsened chance on the saving dice - meaning that against MEQ or lighter in cover it's worse, and against vehicles it's decidedly worse.
It is really only good against TEQ and MCs compared with the Scatter Laser at the moment. If it was upped to 3 shots, it'd only need to worsen the save ratio by 25% comparably to be worth it, meaning it'd be better against:
* Armour saves of 5+ or better outside of cover.
* TEQ, all kinds.
* Nearly all MCs.
* MEQ in cover (by 11.1%).
The scatter laser would be better against:
* Vehicles
* 6+ save outside cover
* Any unit where the cover save matches or is better than armour save

If, on the other hand, Star Cannon strength and armour piercing was improved by one point each, the calculation becomes significantly more difficult. It'd gain the upper hand against certain vehicles and most MCs, while the situation against MEQ remains unchanged.
Taking this route I think the Star Cannon would only reach a breaking point when it started treading on Missile Launcher territory (S8 Ap1 or Ap2), at which point the missile launcher's saving grace would be the plasma missile option to work against hordes as well.

I do not really see the Star Cannon having cover-negation, as that would make it a supreme choice against almost everything except vehicles.

The way I see it: Low-AP Shuriken Cannon or double-tap low-AP Krak Missile.

Or what if we followed the fluff and made star cannons as good as they are supposed to be, i.e. as good as plasma cannons?

Mahtamori wrote:
* Haywire Grenades treat Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes! as Vehicle Destroyed - Wrecked.
* All models are Fleet, including Walkers and Wraiths.
Wave Serpent
* This unit is an assault vehicle. Models transported inside count as disembarking from a stationary vehicle for purposes of assault.
Falcon
* This unit has a carry capacity of 12
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

Harlequin Troupe
* This unit may also select Falcon and Wave Serpent as dedicated transport

Striking Scorpions
* This unit has Fleet

Wraithguard
* This unit count as having Power Fists in close combat.

Guardian Defenders.
* Guardian Defenders have BS4
* For every 5 Guardian Storm in the unit, two members must will crew one heavy weapon platform at the point cost of the weapon.
* One weapon platform may be upgraded to a Support Weapon Platform at the point cost of the weapon.

Guardian Storm
* Guardian Storm have WS4

Rangers
* This unit has a cost of 22
* This unit has all the benefits of Pathfinders by default.
* This unit may not be upgraded to Pathfinders.

War Walker
* This unit is now Fast Attack rather than Heavy Support
* This unit has Fleet

Few things, mainly based on the recent DE codex
Haywire grenades, sounds like a great change but I dont see why only Eldar haywire grenades would do this. If they wanted to change them, wouldnt they have done it for DE as well.

Why should wraithguard and warwalkers have fleet, when Talos and Cronos do not?

Wave Serpents are rather nice transports, shame they are not assault vehicles. I feel that the added power of being an assault vehicle would add a lot of points so I think it should be a vehicle upgrade rather than something given by default.

Falcon: look at the models, the wave serpent is bigger than the falcon. IMHO the falcon should stay as 6man transports
Also the Falcon packs a lot of firepower, I dont feel they should be dedicated transports.

Harlequins: If DE cant give them a dedicated transport why should Eldar? Its annoying both ways but perhaps GW feels they should fight on their feet.

DE Incubi got fleet, I am certain scorpions will too in the next dex as they share the same lineage.

Wraithguaird: Powerfists completely change their dynamic by making them much better in CC. IMHO a powerfist would make them OP at 35pts per model. Would you rather have a T4 2+ terminator or a T6 3+ wraithguard who has a better gun and costs less points.

Guardians:
I dont know if I liked them getting BS4. I dont see why they should be better at hitting things than guardsmen. They are just part time soldiers.
Heavy weapon platforms per 5 models is too much. 1 per 10 is in line with other armies troop choices.
Storms:
Again I dont see why they should be WS4, the same as DE wyches, Ork Nobs, and Khorne Bezerkers who live their entire considerably long lives for close combat and practice every day.

Rangers:
**EDIT** I miss read. I think that the rules they have should be simplified, perhaps make them rend on a 5 and 6 and get rid of the AP1 on rolling to hit.

Warwalkers:
I dont think these should be fast attack. They are not fast and they can have way too many heavy weapons. They are not IG sentinels.

Here is the bottom line.

If each eldar codex needs to be respectful of the statlines of common units and wargear in the other codex (DE of CWE, and CWE of DE), there is going to be a serious problem of stagnancy in unit statlines, as statlines can't change in one book without "showing up" or "being unfair" to the other codex.

We can't consider the statlines and wargear in the DE codex in our proposed changes to the CWE codex, except in thematic, fluff, or game-balance decisions. If we did consider the DE codex, we are going to hamstring BOTH codexes for the forseeable future.

Before we move on from Guardians - lets try to not conflate decisions too much. Changing warlocks for the purpose of Guardians (and here again we come full circle) is dangerous without considering the Seer Council. Likewise, changing the star cannon needs to happen in the context of considering all platforms on which the star cannon can be taken.

S4 AP5 R18 A2 for shuriken cannons is good. I like this decision. I also like the schema for Guardians. I would also suggest (it is hardly the main point) that Pulse Lasers are added to the list of heavy support weapons they can take to replace their two heavy weapon platforms.

That being said, after the Shuriken Cat. profile, which affects so many units, I think a fruitful discussion would be the profiles for all heavy weapons and common weapons in the codex, as they will form the crux of many balance decisions. Not only should the profiles for each weapon be considered, the platforms these weapons are available on should also be discussed. Are we going to allow Guardian Jetbike Squads to access heavy weapons other than shuriken cannons? Are we going to allow the wraithlord to access the D-cannon? Can falcons swap their pulse laser for other weapons at cost? Can wave serpents access the pulse laser? This discussion, of profile and platforms, could solve a number of problems in a single blow, both the ranged anti-tank problem of the current codex, and the Fire Dragon dependency in the Elite slot.

Are we going to allow Guardian Jetbike Squads to access heavy weapons other than shuriken cannons?

No, I don't think so.

Are we going to allow the wraithlord to access the D-cannon?

Yes, but only if it holds no other weapon.

Can falcons swap their pulse laser for other weapons at cost?

No, I don't think so. IMO, the Pulse laser should be the falcons signature weapon.

Can wave serpents access the pulse laser?

See above.

DarknessEternal wrote:I'd rather remove the reaper launcher altogether and give them back Missile Launchers.

Naw Thats lame then there more expsnesive longfangs besides exarchs fight not direct and banshees should be like incubi thats how i think of them in my minds eyes.

Exergy wrote:Few things, mainly based on the recent DE codex

Eldar and Dark Eldar share ancestry, but their mindset, culture, technology, etc differ. There is a greater resemblance between Imperial Guard and Space Marines, but you still don't see them using mirrored or even very similar kit.

Haywire grenades, sounds like a great change but I dont see why only Eldar haywire grenades would do this. If they wanted to change them, wouldnt they have done it for DE as well.

It's a necessary change for nearly all grenades. The unit going into melee risk being completely taken out by the wrong "good" result.

Why should wraithguard and warwalkers have fleet, when Talos and Cronos do not?

Because they are not Talos or Cronos and they use considerably different manufacturing techniques.

Wave Serpents are rather nice transports, shame they are not assault vehicles. I feel that the added power of being an assault vehicle would add a lot of points so I think it should be a vehicle upgrade rather than something given by default.

You'll notice that I turned it around and stripped Wave Serpents of their Energy Fields so as to force them to be different from Falcons. And I'd argue that just because a vehicle is made better doesn't mean it needs to cost more - that's because I don't accept the assumption that the current codex is fairly costed.

Falcon: look at the models, the wave serpent is bigger than the falcon. IMHO the falcon should stay as 6man transports
Also the Falcon packs a lot of firepower, I dont feel they should be dedicated transports.

Re-examine the Falcon's fire power. Just Dave brought up that I double-tapped improvements on the Falcon, but if you actually take a good hard look at what relative fire power the two vehicles have, it's not so great.
Falcon: 1x Pulse Laser + 1x Scatter Laser.
Wave Serpent: 1,5x Scatter Laser.
It's not far off at all - that Falcon costs more and the Pulse Laser is arguably better than a Scatter Laser, but not by all that much. Then you add in that the Falcon has a smaller troop capacity and can't shoot both weapons at the same time and you're in a situation where currently the Wave Serpent most of the time has better survivability, better troop capacity as well as better fire power at a lower cost.

Harlequins: If DE cant give them a dedicated transport why should Eldar? Its annoying both ways but perhaps GW feels they should fight on their feet.

I've yet to see a competitive argument for adding Harlequins in either army, even though Footdar suits them a bit better. Harlequins need to be altered, changed, from their current form. The Dark Eldar codex is an abomination in this respect, and my own suggestion for them is half-arsed at best.

DE Incubi got fleet, I am certain scorpions will too in the next dex as they share the same lineage.

Indeed.

Wraithguaird: Powerfists completely change their dynamic by making them much better in CC. IMHO a powerfist would make them OP at 35pts per model. Would you rather have a T4 2+ terminator or a T6 3+ wraithguard who has a better gun and costs less points.

Just Dave brought this up as well. I focused on Power Fists having power weapon rule and strike last, and forgot about doubled strength. Wraithguard performance in close combat is a bit poor at the moment for a 35 point model, but I agree that with a power fist they simply become way too good not to have their points bumped considerably.

Guardians:
I dont know if I liked them getting BS4. I dont see why they should be better at hitting things than guardsmen. They are just part time soldiers.
Heavy weapon platforms per 5 models is too much. 1 per 10 is in line with other armies troop choices.
Storms:
Again I dont see why they should be WS4, the same as DE wyches, Ork Nobs, and Khorne Bezerkers who live their entire considerably long lives for close combat and practice every day.

Several Dark Eldar warriors have WS4 AND BS4, while they have an average life expectancy shorter than the time Eldar warriors spend with their dolls. Craftworld Eldar live a very, very, long life compared to nearly all races. The part-time soldier argument is getting old. They're a trained militia, not artists who've never seen a gun before, nor savages without any discipline or training.

Rangers:
Pathfinders spit out too much AP1 to be that cheap. Maybe give have the pathfinder rules for 22 points but just give them normal sniper rifles with no additional AP 1. It is kind of confusing anyway as it is.

I only decreased their point cost by 2 you know, and their inherent performance problems which prevent people from taking them isn't going to be weighed up by a point drop of less than 10% of their price.

Warwalkers:
I dont think these should be fast attack. They are not fast and they can have way too many heavy weapons. They are not IG sentinels.

No, they're not sentinels. They are even aberrant compared with the normal Eldar doctrine. The hornet version looks extremely interesting in this respect. I just consider them to belong less in Heavy Support.

I feel that the wave serpent and the falcon should be further differentiated by having the falcon sacrifice all of its transport ability for firepower in the next codex.

Turret-mounted weapons should be counted as 1 gun for firing purposes. The 2nd turret mount should be upgradable to a pulse laser. The Crystal Targeting Matrix should return and give Twin linking, at cost.

The wave serpent should lose its twin linking, and have to pay to get it back.

Then you have the artillery-type tanks with the fire prism and night spinner.

Haywires should be 2-4 glance 5-6 pen, all destroyed results are wrecks.


Wraithguard (I'm biased on wraithguard) should be downgraded to I3, and, being mini-MCs, be given power weapons in CC.

Guardians : 1 heavy weapon per ten is NOT on par with other race's troop choices at all. 2 per 10 is (see: every imperial codex)

War walkers being moved to fast attack, in my opinion is less because they "belong" in fast attack than it is because heavy support is way too crowded.

Gwyidion wrote:Here is the bottom line.

If each eldar codex needs to be respectful of the statlines of common units and wargear in the other codex (DE of CWE, and CWE of DE), there is going to be a serious problem of stagnancy in unit statlines, as statlines can't change in one book without "showing up" or "being unfair" to the other codex.

Surely one must change before the other. I just think that they should consider changing them both in the same edition. IE DE got the first 5th edtion codex, so they could have changed anything that the two share then. The next time I would change things they have in common would be 6th edtion.

On that note, the DE codex prices a BS4 DL at 25 points. I would imagine that Eldar would see a similar pricing, maybe 20 points for a BS3 on guardians(it can move and fire) and 25points for wraithlords and such which are at BS4


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:Several Dark Eldar warriors have WS4 AND BS4, while they have an average life expectancy shorter than the time Eldar warriors spend with their dolls. Craftworld Eldar live a very, very, long life compared to nearly all races. The part-time soldier argument is getting old. They're a trained militia, not artists who've never seen a gun before, nor savages without any discipline or training.

Significant numbers of DE remember the fall. DE go out and raid to harvest souls to keep them young but in doing so they become nearly immortal. They are regrown after death.
But length of life is not really as important as the fraction of your recent memory spent practicing. Even profesional soldiers that spent years in the army become rusty after a few years in the reserve.
I dont care if a guardian is 1000 years old, they probably train less than an hour a day. If you want professional soldiers take Aspect Warriors. Aspect Warriors spend their entire lives training and notice how they have the exact same stat line as DE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:You'll notice that I turned it around and stripped Wave Serpents of their Energy Fields so as to force them to be different from Falcons. And I'd argue that just because a vehicle is made better doesn't mean it needs to cost more - that's because I don't accept the assumption that the current codex is fairly costed.

Re-examine the Falcon's fire power. Just Dave brought up that I double-tapped improvements on the Falcon, but if you actually take a good hard look at what relative fire power the two vehicles have, it's not so great.
Falcon: 1x Pulse Laser + 1x Scatter Laser.
Wave Serpent: 1,5x Scatter Laser.
It's not far off at all - that Falcon costs more and the Pulse Laser is arguably better than a Scatter Laser, but not by all that much. Then you add in that the Falcon has a smaller troop capacity and can't shoot both weapons at the same time and you're in a situation where currently the Wave Serpent most of the time has better survivability, better troop capacity as well as better fire power at a lower cost.

I think the Waveserpent is fairly price, the weapons however are not. compared to an IG valkarie they are not exactly the same but they are comparable. Similar fast skimming assault vehicles include the Strorm raven and Vect's Dais, both of which come in at 200 points or more.

A falcon as anti GEQ might count a scatter laser as the same as a pulse laser but the pusle laser is longer range, AP2 and higher strength. It can glance AV14 and pen AV 12 and AV13 something a scatter laser can only dream of. It takes down terminators and overkills mega armored nobs. In almost every situation I would rather have a pulse laser than a scatter laser. Saying a scatter laser is better than a pulse laser is like saying an autocannon is better than a lascannon, you wont find many people out there who will go for that.
I support somethign that lets the falcon fire both its turret weapons, maybe all 3 of its weapons.

If you're going to go so far as to compare the Wave Serpent to the Storm Raven, then at the very least take everything into account. The Storm Raven has considerably stronger armament and extremely larger carry capacity.
+Access points on each side, not just rear
+Deep strike
+Able to drop people off after moving flat out
+Able to bring a dreadnought AS WELL
+1 Heavy weapon
+4 One-shot heavy weapons
+Assault Vehicle
+Melta protection in the rear
+Machine spirit
-Dedicated transport
-High strength protection

That's all for about +100 points compared with the current Wave Serpent. If the Falcon would be approaching THAT level of awesomeness, if I only had to pay an additional 70 points, I'd see no need for discussion.
And we've not even discussed that the heavy weapons Blood Angels have access to, for lower comparable point costs, also pack a stronger punch!


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Bottom line is, the lack of an assault transport or an open topped transport with a capacity of 12 models is hurting the Eldar machanized CC.

I think messing with the strength + range has too many knock on effects throughout the rest of the army.

Changing the heavy weapons platforms so they can't move and shoot would go a long way to help the roles of the DA and guardians stand out. If guardians can't move and maintain full firepower, have worse armour and BS3 they will have a very different use to the faster and higher ROF Avengers.

Oriallis wrote:My idea

Regular Shuriken Catapult
18" S4 AP5 Assault 2

Dire Avenger Shuriken Catapult
18" S4 AP5 Assault 2, rending

I dislike the rending idea. What, DAs sharpen their monofilament disks to be sharper? As I said my preference would be to make a shuriken catapult Rapid Fire 18" but I can live with the differentiating factor being the BS of DAs. However at this point I feel that you will make EJB awesome and guardians deserve a points increase.

I'm uncertain about the more recent Guardians, but my old ones (3rd edition) have significantly smaller shuriken catapults than do the Dire Avengers.

Guardians are overcosted as they are. Giving them 6" more range, with no other changes, barely justifies not having a points decrease - especially since they pay for platforms on top of their unit cost.

Making the normal S. cat. S4 AP5 R18" Assault 2 is not at all overpowering in any way. Even with GJB squads, they can't get out of 24" range if they want to fire their S. cats., which means they aren't immune to casualties. It hardly makes a difference for most vehicles, since they usually move far enough to prohibit firing at all, or are firing at different targets.

I think the S5 A.S. cat. and the 18" normal S. Cat. are good changes; they make guardians able to provide some fire support, and they make Avengers still clearly better AND make them less dependent on the farseer - all good things that needed to happen, in my opinion. They aren't overpowering in the grand scheme of things, and with the 5-10 guardian design, there will never be a horde-guardian army.

I dislike rending, as above, as it seems to be the generic "fix it" weapon add on.

Okay so let's compare these two and see how they do, I've changed the DAshuricat's strength, the weapons platforms ect.

Defender Guardians: 75 points

Stats: Warlock (as now), Guardians WS/BS3 5+

Unit size: 5 Guardians, 1 Warlock, 1 Shuriken Cannon weapon platform

Special Rules: Fleet

Wargear:Shuriken catapult R18" S4 Assault 2

Options: Up to 5 more guardians may be purchased for 8 points per model, If all 5 additional guardians are taken, another Shuriken Cannon weapons platform may be taken for +10 points.
Any shuriken cannon weapons platform may be upgraded to: Star cannon (x points), scatter laser (x points) ect ect...
The warlock may take any of the options from the warlock entry.
If the unit includes 2 heavy weapon platforms, they may both be replaced with a single support weapon: D-Cannon for x points, Vibro cannon for x points ect...
May take WS dedicated transport.

Any heavy weapon mounted on a platform can fire even if it moved in the movement phase, A support weapon may not fire if the unit has moved this turn. Any unit that includes a heavy weapon platform may not enter a transport

Dire Avengers: 80 points

Stats: As now (BS/WS4 4+) 5++ from shimmershield

Unit size: 5 Dire Avengers, 1 Dire Avenger Exarch

Special Rules: Fleet, Aspect Warrior

Wargear:Shuriken catapult R18" S5 Assault 2, Exarch has shimmershield + 2 catapults

Options: Up to 6 more Dire Avengers may be purchased for 12 points per model
The Exarch may take any of the following powers: Bladestorm (as now), Defend (as now)
May take WS or Falcon dedicated transport

Aspect Warrior - unit can regroup as long as it is above 25% of its starting strength.

-----------------------------------------

10 Guardians, 2 shuricannons, Warlock with Conseal - 145 points.
11 Avengers, 1 Exarch with Bladestorm - 162 points.

Guardians Vs GEQ
IG take 40 Lasrifle shots - 13.33 hit - 6.665 wounds - 4.443 die (armour) 2.222 die (3+ cover (conseal))
or
Guardians take 16 S4 shots, 8 S6 shots - 5.33 hit + 2.67 hit - 5.778 wound - 5.778 die out of cover 2.889 die (4+ cover)

Dire Avengers Vs GEQ
IG take 40 Lasrifle shots - 13.33 hit - 6.665 wounds - 3.333 die (cover or armour)
or
Avengers take (bladestorm) 38 shots - 25.333 hit - 21.111 wound - 21.111 die out of cover (ouch!) in cover 10.555 die.


Guardians Vs MEQ
Tac squad take 15 bolter shots, 1 krak missile - 10 bolts hit 0.666 missiles hit - 6.666 bolts wound 0.555 missiles wound - 7.221 wounds out of cover, 2.407 wounds when consealed
or
Guardians take 16 S4 shots, 8 S6 shots - 5.33 hit + 2.67 hit - 4.445 wound - 1.482 die (armour)

Dire Avengers Vs GEQ
Tac squad take 15 bolter shots, 1 krak missile - 10 bolts hit 0.666 missiles hit - 6.666 bolts wound 0.555 missiles wound - 3.703 wounds (armour and Inv) 3.611 wounds (cover)
or
Avengers take (bladestorm) 38 shots - 25.333 hit -16.889 wounds - 6.63 die (armour)

-----------------------------------------

So, Avengers on average kill roughly 4 times as many MEQ's and GEQ's as Guardians do at 0-18"
Guardians really depend on cover to survive, where this makes little or no difference to DA's

This doesn't seem like a 17 point difference to me. The guardians would be little/no use at such short range so would really just end up being extra wounds for the big guns, because once they get close they are useless compared to DA's.

This doesn't seem like a 17 point difference to me The guardians would be little/no use at such short range so would really just end up being extra wounds for the big guns, because once they get close they are useless compared to DA's.

I see it so that the guardians are partially extra wounds for the big guns, and should the enemy come closer, they do have extra defense with their catapults with a bit longer range.
What else are guardians (defenders) good for, really? They are called defenders, aren't they supposed to defend objects then?

Fair point I guess. I just dont like the idea of purchasing a troop purely so it can act as a heavy weapons team.

I think the biggest issue is the cost, why on earth take defenders when you can have a unit of S5 avengers that can take out a 20 man unit of IG in one round of shooting for hardly any extra points?

Maybe it should be more so, that it is the heavy weapons that cost points and not the guardians.

Yeah, I changed this suggestion from my previous one so that the weapons platform isn't free.
The problem I see is that DA's (imo) are pertty much perfectly priced for their current 12ppm cost. Because of the changes to guardians we're having to change a perfectly ballanced unit so that it isnt made redundant, at S5 I think they'd be better suited at 15/16ppm

The guardians are definitely vehicles for the heavy weapons. Do the mathhammer for a Def. Guardian squad with missile launchers and a full DA unit vs AV10/11/12.

1. Guardians using Shuriken Cannon gain 6 S6 shots, not 8.
2. Dire Avengers gain +50% ROF one round for -100% the next, this also needs to account for.
3. The weapons compared are all Imperial Guard killers. Throw in some heavy bolters and what not and watch the Dire Avengers scurry for cover.

I don't think the Dire Avengers need a price hike. I think even with S5 they aren't over priced, compared with some of the more recent codices. What really tops it off is Blade Storm. It's really a no-brainer
20 points for an ability which increases your 150 point squad's effectiveness by 50% (let's face it, it's the first round of shooting that's important).
The Guide Doom Dire Storm Serpent is excessively potent, and it's the "Storm" part that's cheapest and has most impact.

As for separating them, I see the most logical role for Guardians to be purely special weapons teams. Higher platform ratio for Guardians and higher hot-weapon ratio for Storm, and then you have a troop choice which is distinctly different from Dire Avengers / Banshees.
Although with a higher ratio on Storms, then the price per flamer need to be reconsidered. 6 points per melta is decent, but 6 points for a flamer is a bit low if every second or third can take one.

There isn't much of an issue with storm guardians appart from being a bit 1 dimensional. They are good with lots of flamers + destructor, so we can either just keep them like that as they are, or we can try and overhaul them.

I'd be happy with WS/BS3 T3 5++. 5 guardians + warlock, can take 5 more for ?ppm may take 1 fusion gun/flamer per 3/5 models.

The only problem with 3 flammers + destructor is that they'll basically do the same thing as scorpions or DA's.

Gorechild wrote:I think messing with the strength + range has too many knock on effects throughout the rest of the army.

Changing the heavy weapons platforms so they can't move and shoot would go a long way to help the roles of the DA and guardians stand out. If guardians can't move and maintain full firepower, have worse armour and BS3 they will have a very different use to the faster and higher ROF Avengers.

DA - 20 to 33 S4 shots at BS 4 that can be moved. Also with Defend have an ability to stand up (not necessarily win) to an enemy assault. (22 hits out to 24" with move - 11 wounds)

Guardians - (Assuming BS3 + 1 per 5 weapons platforms) have the ability to put out 12 S6 shots out to 24" while moving and get to add in 32 S4 BS3 shots. (6 S6 hits and 16 S4 hits - 13 wounds)

Guardian Jet Bikes - Get to put out 16 TL BS 3 shots out to 24" along with 12 S6 shots out to 30" (Assuming the use of jet bike move to do stand off movement.(12 S4 hits and 6 S6 hits - 11 wounds)

Cost DA @150 Guardians @ 160 GJB @ 304. Both guardian formations have the ability to enhance their units with a warlock (Embolden, enhance, conceal)

Survival - 20 hits for DA. 20 hits for Guardians. 36 hits for GJB. (Assuming AP5 weapons hitting)

Advantages: DA have the defend and shimmershield to get 5+ invulnerable save in HTH and -1 attack. Ld 9 (4+ armor still leaves DA vulnerable to HB and AC direct fire weapons)
Guardian - Reduction in firepower lessened as 16 kills before loss of weapons platforms. Conceal makes guardians 1/3 harder to kill in shooting phase.
GJB - Reduction in firepower lessened as 8 kills before loss of cannon armed bikes. 3+ Armor removes risk from all high ROF weapons.

Overall, I think we have improved the GJB and defenders quite a bit. If we go on the assumption that DAs were priced right, I would argue that with our improvements, defenders need to increase in cost and perhaps GJB also.


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Gorechild wrote:I think messing with the strength + range has too many knock on effects throughout the rest of the army.

Changing the heavy weapons platforms so they can't move and shoot would go a long way to help the roles of the DA and guardians stand out. If guardians can't move and maintain full firepower, have worse armour and BS3 they will have a very different use to the faster and higher ROF Avengers.

DA - 20 to 33 S4 shots at BS 4 that can be moved. Also with Defend have an ability to stand up (not necessarily win) to an enemy assault. (22 hits out to 24" with move - 11 wounds)

Guardians - (Assuming BS3 + 1 per 5 weapons platforms) have the ability to put out 12 S6 shots out to 24" while moving and get to add in 32 S4 BS3 shots. (6 S6 hits and 16 S4 hits - 13 wounds)

Guardian Jet Bikes - Get to put out 16 TL BS 3 shots out to 24" along with 12 S6 shots out to 30" (Assuming the use of jet bike move to do stand off movement.(12 S4 hits and 6 S4 hits - 11 wounds)

Cost DA @150 Guardians @ 160 GJB @ 304. Both guardian formations have the ability to enhance their units with a warlock (Embolden, enhance, conceal)

Survival - 20 hits for DA. 20 hits for Guardians. 36 hits for GJB. (Assuming AP5 weapons hitting) Add 33% to Guardians if Conceal Warlock. 27+ hits
10 hits for DA. 20 hits for Guardians. 36 hits for GJB. (assuming AP4 weapons hitting) Add 33% to guardians if conceal warlock
10 hits for DA. 20 hits for Guardians. 12 hits for GJB. (Assuming AP3 weapons hitting)Add 33% to guardians and GJB if conceal warlock. 27+ and 16 hits respectively
Advantages: DA have the defend and shimmershield to get 5+ invulnerable save in HTH and -1 attack. Ld 9 (4+ armor still leaves DA vulnerable to HB and AC direct fire weapons)

Guardian - Reduction in firepower lessened as 16 kills before loss of weapons platforms. Conceal makes guardians 1/3 harder to kill in shooting phase.
GJB - Reduction in firepower lessened as 8 kills before loss of cannon armed bikes. 3+ Armor removes risk from all high ROF weapons.

Overall, I think we have improved the GJB and defenders quite a bit. If we go on the assumption that DAs were priced right, I would argue that with our improvements, defenders need to increase in cost and perhaps GJB also.


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Gwyidion wrote:Guardians are overcosted as they are. Giving them 6" more range, with no other changes, barely justifies not having a points decrease - especially since they pay for platforms on top of their unit cost.

Making the normal S. cat. S4 AP5 R18" Assault 2 is not at all overpowering in any way. Even with GJB squads, they can't get out of 24" range if they want to fire their S. cats., which means they aren't immune to casualties. It hardly makes a difference for most vehicles, since they usually move far enough to prohibit firing at all, or are firing at different targets.

I think the S5 A.S. cat. and the 18" normal S. Cat. are good changes; they make guardians able to provide some fire support, and they make Avengers still clearly better AND make them less dependent on the farseer - all good things that needed to happen, in my opinion. They aren't overpowering in the grand scheme of things, and with the 5-10 guardian design, there will never be a horde-guardian army.

I dislike rending, as above, as it seems to be the generic "fix it" weapon add on.

Guardian survivablity - 20 base wounds - + giving them 18" shots means more effective. 12" move + 18" range + 6" Jet bike move means no rapid fire 24" weapon will ever hurt them. BIG advantage to EJB.

S5 AP4 Rending DAs is way OP. Excuse me but if this happens I shudder to think of what will be justifiable for Tau (S6 AP4 30" RF rifles and S6 AP4 18" ROF 3 pulse carbines???)

I will say it again - make the focus of Defenders the fact that they have access to cheap weapons platforms as a determining factor. That their catapult fire is defensive in nature is FINE. Leave it 12" or make it rapid fire 18". The affect of Assault 2 18" is a little too big of a shift in the codex and will make the Eldar codex into the new SW codex (or DH) with brokenness and frustration abounding. If you field 20 guardians and get 4 shuriken cannon platforms for nothing - that is 12 S6 24" range shots that no DA can match.

you are quite simply wrong.

In what world is an 18" range + a 6" assault move untouchable by 24" RF guns? If the guns can't fire, the eldar player was cheating. That isn't even mentioning that there are plenty of weapons/delivery platforms which have no problem reaching out and touching an infantry unit at <24".

I don't think rending should be added. Its the ubiquitous upgrade.

Catapults Defenders can't use without basically committing suicide is not 'fine' its a joke. Adding 6" of range to a gun two troop choices and every tank takes is a minor change - especially when you consider the range and role of those tank's primary weapons. 18" range on S. cats matters for vypers and wave serpents, and really nothing else. And for those two really only when the main gun is destroyed!

It isn't a big deal. It is a little change meant to make one of the most maligned troop choices in the entirety of 40k a little more effective.

S5 on DAs is likewise, very small. It doesn't make them ID anything. It doesn't make them flexible into AT, it doesn't make them tear apart anything they care about. It makes them wound marines on 3s. That is an important shift because right now, their main role is "scoring cargo", and they need a doomseer to provide support for them to make them even marginally decent at killing the most ubiquitous infantry in the game. DAs need a buff, and it shouldn't be 24" range, it shouldn't be rending, i don't think it should be BS5. Running out of options.


And, in the recent frameworks for guardians posted, its been 5-10.

Gwyidion wrote: in the recent frameworks for guardians posted, its been 5-10.

I was purely doing this so we could keep them near their existing cost, without resulting in really cheap hoards of eldar.

I agree, eventhough I don't really like the idea of S5 Avenger Catapults, there isn't that many other options if we want to keep them different from Guardians.

@DAaddict- I was suggesting the shimmershield provides a constant 5++ (not just in cc) just as another way to seperate the two options and make up for guardians having conseal.

I like the 5-10 Guardian units, even if they are relatively cheap and vulnerable compared with aspects.

I'm confident of S5 Dire Avenger Catapults, but I'm less confident it's going to be easy balancing Blade Storm - an ability that's already on the cheap side.
Essentially, currently a unit of Dire Avengers with Blade Storm performs close to their points, while a unit without does not. In my opinion.

Shimmershield providing a full 5++ is certainly interesting. The problem is that it's stuck on the Exarch, this makes it a vulnerability at the same time as forcing it to be a flat upgrade cost which either results in too low or too high.
On the other hand, the Exarch is forced to use a single Power Weapon and can't shoot at all.

What if Dire Avengers instead of having Blade Storm, running on the assumption that they get S5 catapults, were to have an Exarch power that allowed them to make a difficult terrain move in the assault phase unless assaulting?

Gwyidion wrote:you are quite simply wrong.

In what world is an 18" range + a 6" assault move untouchable by 24" RF guns? If the guns can't fire, the eldar player was cheating. That isn't even mentioning that there are plenty of weapons/delivery platforms which have no problem reaching out and touching an infantry unit at <24".

I don't think rending should be added. Its the ubiquitous upgrade.

Catapults Defenders can't use without basically committing suicide is not 'fine' its a joke. Adding 6" of range to a gun two troop choices and every tank takes is a minor change - especially when you consider the range and role of those tank's primary weapons. 18" range on S. cats matters for vypers and wave serpents, and really nothing else. And for those two really only when the main gun is destroyed!

It isn't a big deal. It is a little change meant to make one of the most maligned troop choices in the entirety of 40k a little more effective.

S5 on DAs is likewise, very small. It doesn't make them ID anything. It doesn't make them flexible into AT, it doesn't make them tear apart anything they care about. It makes them wound marines on 3s. That is an important shift because right now, their main role is "scoring cargo", and they need a doomseer to provide support for them to make them even marginally decent at killing the most ubiquitous infantry in the game. DAs need a buff, and it shouldn't be 24" range, it shouldn't be rending, i don't think it should be BS5. Running out of options.


And, in the recent frameworks for guardians posted, its been 5-10.

Maligned as in not super killy is fine. Again giving them 1 free shuriken cannon platform per 5 and then backed up by either 12" range SC or rapid fire SC gives them a role that no DA can match. Make it +5 to shift to shuriken cannon and we are talking 90 pts for 8 S6 shots out to 36". If someone dares to get close to them, add 8 S4 shots and if they walk within 12" 16 S4 shots. So wounding we are talking about 6 for 90 pts at 18" compared to DA putting out 11 for around 150 pts. That seems reasonable. Putting out 10 wounds for 90 versus 11 for 150 at 18" range seems OP. The flexibility of guardians should be their selling point - the flexibility in 2 EML or 2 BL or 2 Scatter Lasers allows the guardians to be outfitted to fill a need in the eldar list. If you make it +5 for SL +10 for EML, +15 for ROF 3 StC and +20 BL you already have 120 for two Bright Lance or two pulse laser. for 80 pts you are putting out 6 S6 shots. - not too shabby. Sure a DA can put out a ton of shots at S4 but that is all it can do. It is a focused troop killer.

I disagree with S5 cats on the principle that it makes it vehicle affecting with a high ROF weapon (potentially 3 with bladestorm). To me the eldar are an over-concentration of 6 S heavy weapons backed up by a lot of S4 killiness designed to deliver the coup de grace. The TAU are the no heavy weapon S5 shootiness. I will say it again make DA cats S5 and you have ensured an OT upgrade to preserve the Tau their firepower.

As far as most maligned troop choice - I would put Necron Warriors and Tau Firewarriors far ahead of guardians with only the need for more platforms as a wish item. Going back to the old codex, the eldar loved to field 6-man guardian units (I believe it was 6 maybe 5) with a platform. The nerf of the current codex is making the eldar put 10 defenders out there to field 1 platform. That has added a 50% cost to any guardian formation as well as the low concentration of HW. Between war walkers, vehicle mounts and even wraith lords a guardian unit -at best offers the same firepower with no survivability. Thus when given the choice of a wave serpent or a 10-man guardian squad with a platform, it is a no brainer and you play a wave serpent.

I like the DA SS providing 5++ no matter whether it is shooting or CC.

Mahtamori wrote:I'm confident of S5 Dire Avenger Catapults, but I'm less confident it's going to be easy balancing Blade Storm - an ability that's already on the cheap side.
Essentially, currently a unit of Dire Avengers with Blade Storm performs close to their points, while a unit without does not. In my opinion.
*snip*
What if Dire Avengers instead of having Blade Storm, running on the assumption that they get S5 catapults, were to have an Exarch power that allowed them to make a difficult terrain move in the assault phase unless assaulting?

How about adding another drawback to bladestorm as well, maybe they cant assault after? or can only assault d6" after? Either that our you could just up the price of the power?

For swooping hawks what do guys think about changing lasblasters weapon profile to 24 inch str x, ap -, assault 2.
Units hit by lasblasters are always wounded on +4, furthermore if the targets armor save is better than a 4+ it is reduced to reduced to 4+, inv. saves are not effected. Lasblasters have affect no on vehicles.

so for example if it wounds a termie, they would have a 4+ save instead of a 2+ (unless the termie had a storm shield).

I got the ideal from bright lances, and it would help explain the 4+ save across the board, also this would give hawks and spiders different roles spiders would be anti-horde and hawks would be anit-heavy infantry, both would be fairly effective againist MC but not over the top againist them by any means.

For Swooping Hawks a small version of the Bright Lance would be interesting and set them apart from the other FA choices, however, I don't personally see a reason - gameplay or fluff - for them to be witchblade-tech.
They can be completely fine as "simple" advanced lasers of one kind or other.

I suggested a fixed to wound roll to keep them from being too effective againist hordes (leave that for warp spiders).

Considering that sniper rifles have a fixed to wound rate a laser based weapon that ignores armor to certain point could have similiar effects, and with DE having poison I thought it was appropriate from a rule and fluff prospective.

That said I think maybe changing it to wounding infantry on a 4+, and MCs on a 5+ would probably work better.

Random idea, just thought I'd pen it down so to speak.

Warp Lotus. 80 points. Fast Attack.
Front armour 12, side armour 12, rear armour 10.
Special rules: Tank, Fast, Skimmer, Warp Node, Distortion Field.
Weapons: None.

The Warp Lotus is a fast assault support vehicle for the Eldar. Sacrificing all armaments for a mobile stable warp entry point, the Warp Lotus is capable of bringing in any Eldar units from a very long distance. The Warp Lotus is a master piece of force manipulating energies, featuring some of the most sophisticated Eldar technology.

Distortion Field: Any model which is unable to escape from the Warp Lotus' tank shock automatically suffers a wound with no armour saves allowed, or in case of a vehicle suffers a penetrating hit. This damage is resolved before normal tank shock damage or death or glory, and if the target is destroyed the Warp Lotus will carry on moving until it reaches a new target or has moved it's full distance.
Warp Node: Any unit entering from reserves may choose to enter via the Warp Node. When entering through the Warp Node, treat the arriving unit as deep striking to a point within 6" from the Warp Lotus, but do not roll scatter. The Warp Node is not able to bring in units with structure points or flyers.

Upgrades
Standard Eldar tank upgrades.
Force Prow (5 points): When tank shocking, treat the tank's front armour as having an Armour Value of 14 for all purposes.

Model
I imagine the Warp Lotus to look something like a Falcon with it's troop compartment and turret removed, and it's "wings" twisted roughly 60° so that the inside of the vehicle forms something of a tunnel. Sort of like a warp gate from EVE: Online (one of the Amarr kind)

I think we have plenty of units to work on before introducing new ones, but certainly a system of some kind which helps with DS is probably needed.

I also thought that all eldar vehicles should be able to deepstrike default, as they can, you know, fly. Or, i saw it as a suggestion either here or elsewhere, vectored engines become an upgrade allowing deepstrike.

Interesting thing with the Warp Lotus and I agree that the Eldar need an assault vehicle, but maybe something similar to the Venom instead of a weird teleporter thing, it reminds me too much of a Monolith

Like I wrote, it's a random idea. Probably something that's only about as serious as a forge world kind of item, not a codex kind of item. Oh, and it doesn't allow you to assault the turn you deep strike.

Gwydion, yes I know I've written that a few times and I've seen others do it, too. It'd be a rather cheap upgrade going by Dark Eldar standards as well.
I'm mostly trying to facilitate a synergy between units at the same time as promoting non-mechanization.

loota boy wrote:Interesting thing with the Warp Lotus and I agree that the Eldar need an assault vehicle, but maybe something similar to the Venom instead of a weird teleporter thing, it reminds me too much of a Monolith

I tend to prefer the ideal of an exarch power allowing the unit to treat a vehicle as an assault vehicle because it helps each eldar army be more clearly defined.

I like the warp lotus concept for a forge world style list, but for all craftworlders it doesn't feel right, Also I think its undercosted for what its capable of doing.

edit: what slot on the force org would it take up, as a heavy I could see it being more balanced because of what your giving up for it.

It's fast attack the way I designed it. It's also quite fragile unless you stack holo-fields and more on it, so it will reach a point where it is no longer a very effective unit.

The distort field may be a bit much for a unit that's mostly designed to just bring in troops, but I also felt that unless a certain amount of power was implemented you'd just look at wasted FOCs.
80 points is a bit low, though, all things considered somewhere in the 110 region I recon, simply because you can't really upgrade it with weapons any further.
Could use a further limitation not to allow tanks, or even vehicles, from porting in near it. "Smaller units" and all that so to speak - letting the larger vehicles deep strike of their own motor.

The ideal is not to discount or punish a unit because it is a certain type of FOC or not, except Troop which is scoring, but rather to fill a certain type of slot with as near equally delicious units as possible.

But enough of the Lotus.

Swooping Hawks.

What about Lasblasters being r24" S6 Ap2 Assault 1 Lance? Swooping Hawks losing the grenade pack, and having a cost of around 20 points per model.
Exarch Sun Rifle r24" S6 Ap1 Assault 1 Lance Melta.
Exarch Hawk Talon r24" S4 Ap2 Assault 3 Pinning.
Baharroth would have a rifle that's r24" S6 Ap1 Assault 2 Lance.
Skyleap = Turbo-boost
Intercept = Some sort of anti-deep strike power. Say free round of shooting on anything that's attempting to drop near the Hawks prior to the unit landing.

I think if the strength of lasblasters was that high you'd have to restrict the range, they would be amazing at killing MCs.

If you were gonna make them ap 2 weapons I would probably lower the str to 5, and then give them meltabombs instead of haywires for assaulting vehicles.

It's S6 simply so the lance can glance AV12+. Hashing over them in the shower (best place for thinking) their weapons and stats would probably land them much closer to 25 points with those stats and that range.
Reducing the blasters to mini-lances, and giving them a range of 18 would be a middle path and also gives the intercept exarch ability a more manageable range as well.
Warp Spiders have no armour piercing but have two shots at 12" with a retreat warp. At 22 points they have proven to be close, but still overly expensive. The breaking point where Swooping Hawks would be better is when shooting at armour 3+ or better or vehicles with AV13 or better.

Essentially this differentiation leads to the spiders being better for harassment, dealing with infantry in cover, or light infantry caught in the open. Spiders would also be better at making sure ATSKNF models keep running.
With the Hawk exarch ability, they get the role of keeping watch against drop-pods and terminators for armies that spend most of it's time on their own legs, while Turbo-boost would allow them to rapidly re-deploy and get cover doing so as well.

The last concern would be their interaction or competition with Shining Spears, which essentially need to get close to do their job and cost more.
Shining Spears is one of those units that needs a lot of work, but suffice to say they do the job of annihilating Termies and MCs better, but have to present their shiny arse for a whooping so need to be used more carefully.
Here is a case of 1-shot at range versus 2-shots at melee with the same stats. Spears also get a round of low-power shooting before assaulting.

Gorechild wrote:Right, a quick rundown of what we've covered so far and what is still left to sort out (updated 21/3/11):

HQ:
Autarch - Done
Farseer/SeerCouncil - Done
Avatar - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Hoec - Done
Eldrad - Not covered
Iyana - Done
Biel Tan guy - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Nahadu (sp?) - Done

Troop:
Dire Avengers - Done
Guardians - Done
Rangers - Done
Jetbikes - Done

Elite:
Howling Banshees - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Striking Scorpions - Not covered
Fire Dragons - Done
Harlequins - Done?
Wraithguard - Done

Fast Attack:
Warp Spiders - Done
Swooping Hawks - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Shining Spears - Done
Vypers - Done

Heavy Support:
Dark Reapers - Done?
Wraithlords - Not covered
Fire Prism/Night Spinner - Done
War Walker - Discussed but no real conculsion made

Dedicated Transports:
Wave Serpent - Done
Falcon - Discussed but no real conculsion made

Updated first post to cover changes to DA's and guardians.

--------------------

Can one of you write up a full suggestion for the Hawks? I'm lost in all the suggestions atm

Quoting myself:

Swooping hawks:

Some things that I think won't work, or I think should be avoided:

dropping grenades over any enemy unit it flies over - this won't work, unless the hawk squad can move 36" in a turn, and here is why: Assault range is default 12". If the hawks can move 24", in order to "fly over" an enemy unit which is ZERO inches wide, they must start, or end, their turn in assault range, or rapid fire range, of an enemy unit. For an expensive fragile jump troop, this means a bunch of dead hawks.

Skyleap remaining in the current schema (allowing re-deployment) - any rule which is designed to keep a unit off the table as much as possible should be avoided, in my opinion.

Deep-strike grenade drop - its gimmicky and poorly designed. This, combined with sky leap, makes the hawks a really gimmicky unit.

I feel hawks should be completely redesigned.


Statline: Aspect Warrior standard, 'medium' armor save (on par with banshees, DAs, etc)

Special Rules:
All normal eldar army-wide rules, and fleet
Masters of the Skies: On any turn in which the hawk unit moved, cover saves may not be taken against wounds inflicted by the hawk squad in the shooting phase.

Wargear:
Swooping Hawk Wings, Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack, Lasblaster


Swooping Hawk Wings: Swooping Hawks are Jump Infantry, and have the Hit and Run USR
Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack: Swooping hawks have assault, defensive, krak, and haywire grenades
Haywire grenades: 1: shaken 2-4: glance 5-6:pen

Lasblaster:
Several profiles I could see working:
S4 Ap5 R24" Assault 2
S3 Ap6 R24" Assault 3
S3 Ap6 R24" Assault 4

Exarch:
Sunrifle
Hawks Talon


Powers:
Intercept: The hawks never need worse than a 3+ to hit any vehicle. In any turn in which they assaulted a vehicle, they may always utilize their hit and run USR at the end of the assault phase (this allows them to attack and destroy a vehicle/transport, and still get away from reprisals, which is one of their major weaknesses currently).
Skyleap: The hawks have the 'Turboboost' USR.
Aerial Assault (many points): At the start of the assault phase, the hawk unit may make a leadership check, if passed, all swooping hawks in the unit may use their normal number of attacks when attacking with grenades.

So, very simply, the hawks role is supporting anti-infantry fire, and anti-vehicle. I've buffed their movement, and buffed their ranged shooting. I've buffed haywire grenades, and given hawks a mechanism of escape from the aftermath of vehicular combat.

DAaddict wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Gorechild wrote:
With your suggestion I cant see why anyone would choose a starcannon over a pulse laser (unless it was significanly cheaper).

Pulse lasers are only on Falcons and Hornets anyway, so that's a non-issue.

Not explained. This is compilation from the last posting. It was suggested to replace the bright lance with pulse laser as the platform weapon choice. With WS 3 on guardians, I agree this would actually be more useful.

Costs: We had discussed something like Free Shuriken Cannon then going up from there. Something like +5 Scatterlaser, +10 EML or Starcannon, +15 Brightlance and/or Pulse Laser.

I agree the pulse laser would be better suited to BS 3 troops. On that note I would like to see the Starcannon restored to ROF 3 otherwise there is no reason to take it vs a pulse laser.
On that I would like to see the platform costs : Shuriken Cannon Free, SL +5, EML +10, Starcannon, Brightlance(Pulse Laser) +15.

As far as Swooping hawks - how about a total change of mission and an effort to get rid of the grenade pack drop.

Haywire Grenade/Frag Grenade Launcher - 18" A1 0r 18" A1 Blast S3 AP6

Change the exarch abilities to.

Skyleap: By the nature of hawks, they consider themselves to be 12" above the point of the model as far as LOS. Therefore it is very difficult for an enemy to gain a cover save from a hawk.

Other ability: Do to their erratic flight hawks get a 5+ invulnerable save.

The blast template preserves their GEQ nature and the haywire grenade launcher gives them a standoff anti-vehicle attack. Of couse the trade off is the loss of the 24" range A2 lasblaster and the drop in grenade attacks.

The only problem I have with that gun for hawks is the resolution of 10 small blasts - it would just take a lot of time.

Right, after an hour or so of going back throught this and the MKI thread, I've compiled everything that I think is pretty much complete and vaguely agreed on. Other things were: Keep rangers the same but lower their cost by a point or two, keep fire dragons the same, keep prisms the same, re word the night spinner rule (but leave the rest the same), Keep reapers the same (just lower the cost and maybe add S+P). These are the other changes/additions:

Defender Guardians: 75 points

Stats: Warlock (as now), Guardians WS/BS3 5+

Unit size: 5 Guardians, 1 Warlock, 1 Shuriken Cannon weapon platform

Special Rules: Fleet

Wargear:Shuriken catapult R18" S4 Assault 2

Options: Up to 5 more guardians may be purchased for 8 points per model, If all 5 additional guardians are taken, another Shuriken Cannon weapons platform may be taken for +10 points.
Any shuriken cannon weapons platform may be upgraded to: Star cannon (x points), scatter laser (x points) ect ect...
The warlock may take any of the options from the warlock entry.
If the unit includes 2 heavy weapon platforms, one heavy weapon platform per unit may be replaced with a support weapon: D-Cannon for x points, Vibro cannon for x points ect...
May take WS dedicated transport.

Any heavy weapon mounted on a platform can fire even if it moved in the movement phase, A support weapon may not fire if the unit has moved this turn. Any unit that includes a heavy weapon platform may not enter a transport

Dire Avengers: 80 points

Stats: As now (BS/WS4 4+) 5++ from shimmershield

Unit size: 4 Dire Avengers, 1 Dire Avenger Exarch

Special Rules: Fleet, Aspect Warrior

Wargear:Shuriken catapult R18" S5 Assault 2, Exarch has shimmershield + 2 catapults

Options: Up to 5 more Dire Avengers may be purchased for 12 points per model
The Exarch may take any of the following powers: Bladestorm (as now), Defend (as now)
May take WS or Falcon dedicated transport

Aspect Warrior - unit can regroup as long as it is above 25% of its starting strength, rather than the usual 50%.

Shining Spears - 90 points

BS WS S T I A W Ld Sv
4---5--3-3(4)-6-2-2--9--3+

Unit type:
Jetbike

Unit Size:
2 Shining Spears, 1 Shining Spears Exarch

Wargear:
Star Lance
Shuriken Pistol
Close Combat Weapon

Special Rules:
Hit and Run

Options:
Up to 2 additional Shining Spears may be purchased for 30 points each
One Shining Spear may upgrade to an Exarch for 12 points
The Exarch may upgrade his Star Lance to a Sun Lance for 8 points
The Exarch ay purchase a Shimmershield for 15 points

Exarch Powers:
Masters of the Charge - A unit with "Masters of the Charge" may assault 12" rather than the normal 6" - 20 points
Master Riders - The whole unit have the skilled rider USR and count as having plasma grenades - 5 points

Star Lance - A Star Lance is a two handed weapon that doubles the wielders strength and ignores armour saves on the turn they charge, They can also discharge a short range blast with the folowing profile Range 6" S4 AP2
Sun Lance - A Sun lance is a two handed weapon that increases the weilders strength to 8 and ignores armour saves, They can also discharge a short range blast with the folowing profile Range 6" S5 AP2

Araenion wrote:
Warp Spiders - 115 points
BS4 WS4 S3 T3 I5 A1 W1 Ld9 Sv3+

Unit type:
Jump infantry

Unit Size:
4 Warp Spiders + 1 Exarch


Wargear:
Warp jump generator
Death Spinner:
Range: 18" S4 AP6 Assault 3


Special Rules:
A unit equiped with a warp jump generator may make a 6" jump in the assault phase, they may choose to increase the distance of this jump by D6", but if a 1 is rolled one model in the squad is lost in the warp and removed as a casualty before moving the extra inch. This move may be used even if the unit is not in a position to assault.

The death spinner releases a barrage of shots of monofilament wires that covers the enemy, impairing movement and cutting through their flesh and bone should they move. Any squad hit with a Death Spinner is treated as if being in difficult terrain the next time it moves, every model in the squad must also roll a D6 - if a 1 is rolled they suffer a wound with no saves of any kind allowed.


Up to 5 additional Warp Spiders may be added for + 20 points each

Exarch wargear options:
The Exarch may purchase an addition Death Spinner for +5 points (fired as 1 assault 6 weapon) or may exchange it for a Spinneret Rifle. A Spinneret Rifle is a sronger version of the Death Spinner that is S5 and has Rending USR for +10 points; additionally, the exarch may be equiped with a pair of poisoned blades that provide an extra attack, wound on 4+ and have Rending USR for +10 points.

Exarch Powers:
Withdraw for 15 points, provides the unit with Hit&Run USR
Suprise assault for 10 points, when the Exarch's squad Deep Strikes from reserve, they scatter d6" instead of the usual 2d6"

Vypers - XXX points

BS WS S T I A W Ld Sv
4---4--3-5-5-1-2--9--3+

Unit type:
Jetbike

Unit Size:
3 Vypers

Wargear:
Twin Linked Shuriken Catapult
Shuriken Cannon

Special Rules:
Scout

Upgrades:
Up to two additional Vypers may be purchased for +XX points each
Any Twin Linked Shuriken Catapult may be upgraded to a Shuriken Cannon for +5 points each
Any Shuriken Cannon may be upgraded to Scatter Lasers for +XX points each
Any Shuriken Cannon may be upgraded to Star Cannon for +XX points each
Any Shuriken Cannon may be upgraded to Eldar Missile Lanchers for +XX points each
Any Shuriken Cannon may be upgraded to Bright Lance for +XX points each

Guardian Jetbikes - XXX points

BS WS S T I A W Ld Sv
3---3--3-4-5-1-1--8--4+

Unit type:
Jetbike

Unit Size:
3 Guardian Jetbikes + Warlock on Jetbike

Wargear:
Twin Linked Shuriken Catapult

Options:
Up to 6 additional Jetbikes may be purchased for XX points each
The Warlock may take any of the Warlock powers from the Warlock entry
1 Guardian Jetbike in every 3 may upgrade its Twin Linked Shuriken Catapult to a Shuriken Cannon for XX points

Gorechild wrote:Nuadhu 'Fireheart', Wild Rider of Saim Hann - XXX points

WS: 6 BS: 6 S: 3(6) T: 5 I: 6 A: 4 W: 3 Ld: 10 Sv: 3+


Unit Type:
Independant Character
Jetbike

Wargear:
Alean
Holofields
Shuriken Cannon
Spear of Wind

Special Rules:
Hit and Run
Furious Charge
Brotherhood of the Wind

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spear of Wind - Ignores armour, double strength in CC (already included in profile)
Holofields - 4+ inv save
Alean - A special Vyper that is riden as a jetbike, confers +2 toughness and a 3+ armour save (included in profile)
Reckless - Nuadhu confers all of his USR's to any unit that he is joined to.
Brotherhood of the Wind - The wild riders of Saim Han are masters of the eldar jetbike, perfectly equipt to take on any foe from the back of their wraithbone steeds. For every 3 models in a unit of Guardian jetbikes in an army with Nuadhu, 1 may upgrade their shuriken catapult with a fusion gun or flamer for +6 points, as well as the normal shuriken cannon upgrade option
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hoec - XXX points

-BS-WS-S--T--I---A-W--Ld--Sv
--8--5---3--3--6--2--3--10--3+

Unit Type
Independant Character

Wargear:
Silence
Defensive Grenades

Special Rules:
Less Than a Shadow
Mentor of Guile

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Silence- Range 48" S8 AP1 Heavy 1 Pinning or Range 48" S5 AP3 Assault 3 Pinning

Less Than a Shadow- Hoec and any unit he joins have all cover saves improved by 2 (4+ becomes 2+ ect) In addition, Hoec has a 4+ invunerable save against any wounds inflicted by a weapon that ignores cover.

Mentor of Guile- Every ranger long rifle in an army that includes Hoec changes its type from "Heavy 1" to "Assault 1"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Iyanna Arienal, Spiritseer of Iyanden.

Iyanna---5 5 3 3 2 5 2 10 -

Special Rules:
Spiritseer of Iyanden: All Wraithguard units in an army that includes Iyanna count as troops, while Iyanna is alive no unit in your army needs to test for wraithsight.
Iyanna has access to all Warlock powers and may use up to two per turn.

Wargear:
Spear of Teuthlas: Follows the rules for a singing spear, except it is S10 against targets with an AV and ignores armour saves. In addition it has a range of 18"
Armour of Vaul: This armour confers a 4+ invulnerable save to Iyanna, in addition its radiating effects confer a 5+ invulnerable save to her unit.

WRAITHGUARD - 165
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 5 4(6) 2 4 2 10 3+
SQUAD
The unit consists of 4 wraithguard and 1 warlock (165 points), upto 4 more wraithguard may be chosen for +35 points each.

SPECIAL RULES
Infantry.
Fearless: Wraithguard are not living creatures and are therefore not affected by emotions such as dread and urges of self-preservation. They are Fearless, and confer this ability to any characters joining them.
Wraithsight: Wraithguard do not see the world as mortals do, but instead witness an ever-shifting image of spirits that makes them slower to react to changes on the battlefield. At the start of their turn, roll a D6 for each Wraithguard unit that is not within 6” of a friendly psyker. On a roll of a 1, the Wraithguard is inactive until the end of their turn. Inactive models may not move, shoot, assault or attack in close combat, and are hit automatically in close combat.
Wraithbone: Wraithguard are not truly alive and their form is made up of dense layers of wraithbone. There are no weak points to exploit and ‘mortal’ wounds can easily be shrugged off. Any attacks that would wound on a guaranteed roll (such as witchblade attacks, poisoned weapons or sniper rifles) will require a roll of a 6+ to wound, They also have the Feel No Pain special rule
Relentless: Wraithguard have the USR: Relentless

WARGEAR
Wraithcannon: The wraithcannon works by opening up small Warp space/real space holes, tearing apart the target as it is ripped between dimensions. The wraithcannon always wounds on a roll of 2+ and a roll to wound of a 6 inflicts instant death to the victim (regardless of its Toughness value). Against targets with an Armour Value a wraithcannon always inflicts a glancing hit on a roll of 3 or 4 and a penetrating hit on a roll of 5 or 6. It has the following profile:
Range: 18” S: X AP: 2 Rapid Fire

Gwyidion wrote:
Wraithlord - xxx points

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 5 10 8 3 3 3 10 2+

Unit Type
Monstrous Creature

Special Rules
Fearless
Wraithsight
Wraithbone

Wargear:
two wrist mounted twin-linked shuriken catapults
wraithsword

The wrist mounted twin-linked shuriken catapults may be replaced with:
2 flamers (for free), 2 Heavy Flamers (for XX pts) or 2 Wraithcannons (for XX pts)

The wraithsword may be replaced with:
Shuriken Cannon (for free), Star Cannon (for XX pts), Scatter Laser (for XX pts), Eldar Missile Launcher (for XX pts) or a Bright Lance (for XX pts)

They may also take:
A second wraithsword (+1A) (for XX pts), a Shuriken Cannon (for XX pts), a Star Cannon (for XX pts) a Scatter Laser (for XX pts) an Eldar Missile Launcher (for XX pts) or a Bright Lance (for XX pts)

Alternativly, all non-wrist mounted weapons may be replaced with:
A Pulse Laser (for XX pts), a D-Cannon (for XX pts), a Shadow Weaver (for XX pts) or a Vibrocannon (for XX pts)

I'm getting ready to basically just copy/paste all this into the fandex, so we can post it and get some C+C for the whole thing. We just need a final solution for Hawks, a few tweeks for the CC elites and a wraithlord entry and I think were nearly there.

I always found the Star Lance versus Sun Lance to be oddly worded. One provides double strength and the other provides a set strength.

Here's a bit of constructive input:

Defenders
I'm still a bit iffy about having a huge unit accompany a single support weapon. Artillery can't move and shoot, so having all that manpower will just discourage you from purchasing the support weapons, when we want to encourage it.

Aspect Warrior - what if it altered when morale tests are taken to lower levels. 50% casualties and 25% remaining instead of 25% casualties and 50% remaining?

Dire Avengers
I'm curious, why are we increasing maximum and minimum squad size?

Guardian Jetbikes
With smaller Guardian squads, it feels odd having jetbikes' maximum squad size the same size. Maybe limit it to add up to 3 extra only?

Warp Spiders - 115 points.
4 Spiders, 1 Exarch

Shining Spears
I'd be careful here! They just got +1 attack and +1 wound. Lances are single-handed, you see, and as such compatible with pistols.

Hoec
Would it not be sufficient to give him Master Stealth, as this confers to squad?

Iyanna
Missing psychic powers on her. I haven't read her lore, is she a Warlock or a Farseer (ish)?

Horray this is exactly the sort of feed back I wanted

Mahtamori wrote:
Defenders
I'm still a bit iffy about having a huge unit accompany a single support weapon. Artillery can't move and shoot, so having all that manpower will just discourage you from purchasing the support weapons, when we want to encourage it.

How would you suggest we do it then? Just allow each gun to be upgraded to a support weapon? or say 1 per squad, but you dont need a full squad to take one?

Mahtamori wrote:
Aspect Warrior - what if it altered when morale tests are taken to lower levels. 50% casualties and 25% remaining instead of 25% casualties and 50% remaining?

That could work, The only reason I put it as I did was because of a game I played where a 20 man unit had taken 50% casualties and ended up falling back straight past a full 10 man unit and it made me realise how stupid it was

Mahtamori wrote:
Dire Avengers
I'm curious, why are we increasing maximum and minimum squad size?

Whoops, I didnt meant to increase the minimum. I just increased the max so that they would be capable of filling out a WS.

Mahtamori wrote:
Guardian Jetbikes
With smaller Guardian squads, it feels odd having jetbikes' maximum squad size the same size. Maybe limit it to add up to 3 extra only?

Could do, so they'd be allowed 6 bikes (2 with cannons) and a jetlock? Doesnt seem too bad to me.

Mahtamori wrote:
Shining Spears
I'd be careful here! They just got +1 attack and +1 wound. Lances are single-handed, you see, and as such compatible with pistols.

Good catch, I was meaning for them to be two handed, so they only get to use the pistol + ccw if they stay locked in combat.

Mahtamori wrote:
Hoec
Would it not be sufficient to give him Master Stealth, as this confers to squad?

To give a +1 to cover saves? the only reason I went for the 2+ is that pathfinders get 2+ anyway.

Mahtamori wrote:
Iyanna
Missing psychic powers on her. I haven't read her lore, is she a Warlock or a Farseer (ish)?

A Farseer I believe, I'm not 100% with her fluff either.

I'll update my last post to sort some of these out

For support weapons, I'd say "One platform per squad".

Lowering the thresholds for moral is actually a good idea, considering Eldar are desperate, without resorting to all out immunity to morale.

I think the Wave Serpents are size 12 so that you can take a max squad of Aspect Warriors + the 2 HQ choices.

Stealth confers +1, Master Stealth provides +2

Gorechild wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:
Iyanna
Missing psychic powers on her. I haven't read her lore, is she a Warlock or a Farseer (ish)?

A Farseer I believe, I'm not 100% with her fluff either.

I'll update my last post to sort some of these out

Iyanna Arienal is a Spiritseer from Iyanden. She was actually the first spiritseer available to Eldar.

Check out the last paragraph of page 20 of the 4th ed Eldar codex for some fluff on her.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More info on Iyanna:

Her stats from 3rd ed were: 75 pts, 4WS, 4BS, 3S, 3T, 2W, 4I, 1A, 9Ld, Special Save

She had the 12" wraithsight rule (first time appearing), she had both Enhance and Destructor, she had a special staff that was a Singing Spear with 18" range, and her save was an invul save that was an unmodified leadership test.

Mahtamori wrote:For support weapons, I'd say "One platform per squad".

Lowering the thresholds for moral is actually a good idea, considering Eldar are desperate, without resorting to all out immunity to morale.

I think the Wave Serpents are size 12 so that you can take a max squad of Aspect Warriors + the 2 HQ choices.

Stealth confers +1, Master Stealth provides +2

How would you word the "Aspect Warrior" rule then?

Yeah, but being able to take 12 DA's regardless would help stand them out from guardians more.

So how about "Any unit that is joined by Hoec has their cover saves improved by 2 (4+ cover is improved to 2+), whilst out of cover they get a 4+ coversave as well"?

Gorechild wrote:
How would you word the "Aspect Warrior" rule then?

Perhaps that they always have the ability to regroup, regardless of remaining number?

Some other small things I noticed (might sound a bit unnecessary, but still): I don't like the name sun lance, at least not as name for the exarch weapon, as that should be named after asuryans weapon (so the exarch should have the star lance).
Also, did we really agree to make the Spiders weapons poisoned? Then the night spinners weapon would need to be that too, right? I'm not very fond of that idea, actually...
Iyannas armour was really funny ruled, as Grakmar mentioned: her save was to make a leadership test - if she made it, she passed her invulnerable save. I would really like to have that rule on her, though it would probably require that she had Ld 9 instead of 10.

Saintspirit wrote:
Also, did we really agree to make the Spiders weapons poisoned? Then the night spinners weapon would need to be that too, right? I'm not very fond of that idea, actually....

Good spot I must have copied an entry that wasn't the most recent one (I was in a rush so didn't read through everything that thoroughly). I've amended it now

I think, for wraithguard, the changes are mostly good, except for a few -

Well actually, what doe runes of the undying do?

I'm not sure i'm a fan of T4(6). I understand why it is there, but I think it should be a natural T6. They aren't customizable, there is no risk of wound-allocation shenanigans.

8 max - 2 wraithguard is really a big deal? 10 is a nice and round number...

Rapid fire, relentless 18" range is a good compromise. It means they actually can reach out to 24", which is a nice buff, and it makes them even more deadly inside 12", which is another nice buff.

I feel like T4(6)'s main problem is thunderhammers in CC. We're not going to give them a 2+ save or a invuln save, because that would be silly-powerful in a book with fortune. I think making them immune to S8-based ID is a necessity. Even if you make it T5(6), that would be sufficient.

Vypers:
I know this was discussed back in the vyper discussion, but I feel like T4(5), 2W is better. It makes them very vehicle-like, in that a S8 weapon puts them down, but small arms fire might only do one wound. In order to avoid wound shenanigans, you could require all the vypers to be equipped with the same weapons, making them identical in game terms.

Spiders:
Certainly mobile, but their gun seems sort of... meh. I don't know how to solve this.

Shining Spears:
How do you solve the problem of the 2nd round of combat? Either the spears endure another round with S3 no power weapons, or they hit-and-run and risk being rapid fire'd to death. I still support making the spears just like executioners (+2 S 2h PW CCWs)

DA:
Still against falcons as DT. Whats to stop min-squad DAs serving as scoring upgrades for 6 falcon gunboats?

Guardians:
I like, but I still think that exploring the platforms precluding taking a WS as a transport (so, requiring the Guardians to be storm guardians to take a transport) is a good idea.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wraithlords:

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 5 10 8 3 3 3 10 2+

Right off the bat, you can see a pretty big buff. Unless I'm mistaken, the dreadknight is:
5 5 6 6 4W 4 3A 10 2+/5++, 130 pts naked

Characteristic of my new Wraithlord statline:
It stays just as tough, but, with a 2+, it now shrugs off those missle hits that were such a big problem. It becomes much more durable, and requires the dedication of true anti-tank weapons to down. MLs won't cut it anymore - lascannons and plasma weapons are the only recourse (and melta).

three attacks - not so much of a klutz in close combat. Opponents can totally throw termies at a 'Lord if they want, but they're going to take losses.

Special Rules (borrowing from above):
Monstrous Creature
Fearless
Wraithsight
Wraithbone

Wargear:
two wrist-mounted TL shuriken catapults
wraithsword (rerolls in CC)

Wargear options:
May replace his TL Shuriken Cat's with:
2 flamers (free)
2 Heavy Flamers (+Xpts)
2 Wraithcannons (+4X pts)

May replace his wraithsword with:
Shuriken Cannon
Star Cannon
Scatter Laser
EML
Bright Lance

May additionally take:
A second wraithsword (+1A)
Shuriken Cannon
Star Cannon
Scatter Laser
EML
Bright Lance
(all repeats are at the same price)

May forfeit both weapon options to take one of the following:
Pulse Laser
D-Cannon
Shadow Weaver
Vibrocannon



I should have added this in my previous post:
I think wraithsight should have some benefits, as well as some drawbacks:
Wraithsight: Wraithguard and Wraithlords do not see the world as mortals do, but instead witness an ever-shifting image of spirits ... (etc etc). As they perceive the world in a different way than normal individuals, they are also unaffected by the following rules, and pieces of wargear: Disruption Pods, Smoke Launchers, Night Fighting, Veil of Tears, (etc etc)

Warp Spiders
I don't think the Warp Spiders actually need all that much. A bit more reliable second-warp and a bit more cost-effective. It's already a pretty unique and useful unit, specifically great for "escorting" fleeing units and harassing the rear-hatch of transports.

I'd settle for 20 points per model and changing Surprise Assault into Warp Crawler (re-roll the second jump)

Wraithguard
With Wound 2 Wraithguard, a lower toughness value with secondary to-wound toughness value to ensure vulnerability to instant death is necessary to keep costs reigned in. Additionally, in that case I'd argue for reduced unit size (3-6 plus Warlock), but I personally dislike parenthesis values "just because".

The way I see it either a point drop to 25-30 points, or have their innate attacks be power weapons.

Iyanna should make them troop choice, in my opinion, not Spiritseers (which, honestly, is the Spiritseer's only use - bloody useless upgrade)

DAVU
However you put it, Eldar have tanks as dedicated transports, so DAVU will exist. Or GAVU. If you take a Falcon as it currently is, the Wave Serpent is actually a more versatile gunboat than the Falcon (hits better, and doesn't need to stand still to make up for it.)

I see Falcon as a Razorback to the Wave Serpent Rhino.

Wraithlord as support platforms
This is an interesting idea, once you scrap all weapons except the flamers (no one in their right mind would take catapults even with the upgrade).

I do think the Wraithsword should not add re-roll, but straight up +1A from the beginning, though.

The problem with T8 is that it's bloody strong, and it's the T6 that puts the Power Armoured Power Armour down in points.

I would personally rather suggest this: keep the Wraithlord within reasonable potency that taking them in squads isn't far-fetched.

My problem with T4(6) is that it makes them critically vulnerable to the most common elite close combat unit in 40k: the TH/SS terminator. If we give them such a glaring achilles heel, they still won't be very good.

Even with natural T6, they still get no save at all vs power weapons or rending. The only thing that protects them is the proposed 2w. Making them T4(6) means they get zero upgrade in durability from codex to codex against thunderhammers in CC. As it is now, Dire Avengers are better against TH/SS termies than wraithguard.

And falcons, if we make them true gunboats and give them DT and give them a price decrease... I'm fine with them having transport capacity and HS, but a DT means you can take 6 of them for troops. Thats way awesome.

Updated my big post....

@Gwyidion - Wraithguard being bad in assault its fair, if they didn't have a weakness would be really harsh, seeing as they are so insanely durable against everything else.

I'll copy up your Wraithlord suggestion and add it to the big post

OK so here is what I am going forward with for further playtesting.

Eldar roll 2D6 when running and pick the highest result.

Star Cannons - strength 7

Haywire Grenades – 1- no effect, 2-4 – glance, 5-6 – penetration, Count as AP-.

Phoenix Lords gain a 4+ invulnerable save and may designate one squad of their Aspect as a scoring unit.

Shuriken Catapults – Range 18”

Farseer

Warp Gate - Equipment item (25 points) While setting objectives, or prior to the first player's deployment in games where no objectives are used, place a warp gate (mounted on a 50 mm base) on the table outside of the opponent's deployment zone, and at least 12" from any objective. The warp gate is a terrain piece with an AV of 14 and a 4+ invulnerable save. If destroyed by the enemy it counts as a kill point. Each turn one Eldar non vehicular unit entering the table from reserve may treat the warp gate as a friendly board edge. If any enemy unit is located within 3" of the warp gate, it may not be used that turn. Any members of a unit using the warp gate that cannot be placed within 2" of the gate due to any reason are lost in the warp and removed from play.

Mind War – No cover saves.

Eldritch Storm – range 36”.

Guide - Range 24" All friendly ranged attacks against the target enemy unit may reroll "to hit" rolls for one turn. (30 points)

Dire Avengers - plasma grenades, Blade storm - Range attacks made by this unit gain rending this shooting phase. This unit may not make range attacks next turn.

Wraith Lords – 2nd weapon of the same type is no longer twin linked.

Avatar – Inspiring Presence - Eldar units within 12 of an Avatar gain stubborn.

Warp Spiders – Surprise Assault – This unit rolls 1d6 to determine deep strike scatter.

Shining Spear’s – 4 point cost reduction, Hit and Run = 15 points

Warlocks- Conceal – This Warlock's entire unit gains a 5+ cover save. Cover saves from terrain and units are improved by +1.

Support Weapon Platform Battery – Remove from FOC. One support weapon unit may be taken for each Guardian unit in the army. Shadow Weaver gains the monofilament rule, +5 points. Vibro Cannon - no cover saves.

Vypers – 35 points. Vyper vehicle upgrades: stones (5), stealth field - grants stealth to the vyper (5 points each), thrusters - grant a 6” move during the assault phase (5 points).

Swooping Hawks – (5 point cost reduction) Hawk Wings – (add) Hawks may deploy by deep strike first turn. Hawks may choose to reroll the scatter dice anytime they deploy via deep strike, but must accept the second roll.

Comments: Despite some criticism, I am going with this list. I am still open to comments, but I am going to test this out a few times.

ArmyC wrote:Warlocks- Conceal – This Warlock's entire unit gains a 5+ cover save. Cover saves from other sources are improved by +1.

So a 2+ cover save for a turbo boosting seer council?

While I like this rule for defenders and wraithguard it really gets bent out of shape when looking at a seer council

Other than that I like it Guide especially

Also, ap- on haywire grenades is a needless nerf. Using them already requires getting into CC with an expensive infantry unit against a vehicle.

Gwyidion wrote:Also, ap- on haywire grenades is a needless nerf. Using them already requires getting into CC with an expensive infantry unit against a vehicle.

You noticed the pen on 5+ rather than 6+. Actually it is a buff. The AP- keeps the tank from blowing up and killing the Hawks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alspal8me wrote:

ArmyC wrote:Warlocks- Conceal – This Warlock's entire unit gains a 5+ cover save. Cover saves from other sources are improved by +1.

So a 2+ cover save for a turbo boosting seer council?

While I like this rule for defenders and wraithguard it really gets bent out of shape when looking at a seer council

Other than that I like it Guide especially

Quick catch. I'll reword that to , "cover saves from terrain, and units"

ArmyC wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

alspal8me wrote:

ArmyC wrote:Warlocks- Conceal – This Warlock's entire unit gains a 5+ cover save. Cover saves from other sources are improved by +1.

So a 2+ cover save for a turbo boosting seer council?

While I like this rule for defenders and wraithguard it really gets bent out of shape when looking at a seer council

Other than that I like it Guide especially

Quick catch. I'll reword that to , "cover saves from terrain, and units"

Awesome, with that little change it becomes a much more attractive choice for anything on foot, while not being broken

The eldar you all propose would be called cheese by all but space marines but hell thats the gak we are fething paying for

TheWildHost wrote:The eldar you all propose would be called cheese by all but space marines but hell thats the gak we are fething paying for

sorrywhat?

@ArmyC - You could just say "All 'vehicle destroyed - explodes' results caused by haywire grenades count as 'vehicle destroyed - wrecked' instead". This would stop it nerfing the other vehicle damage results. Just a suggestion

Much better is Gore's change, than a simple AP-. It isn't a buff when it makes the likelyhood of actually accomplishing their task go down.

And really, most of the changes here aren't OP or OTT. Its more a case of xenos getting a little imperial love.

Another thing that might be a good idea would be to change the name of them. As Dark Eldar have haywire grenades I think it would just be less confusing than having two identically names bits of wargear with different rules but ymmv.

I appreciate the time and effort all of you are putting into this subject and hope that GW does as well.

As both this post and FocusedFire's original are QUITE long and I have not completely read either, please forgive me if this has already been discussed:

Eldar vehicles should have some equivalent to a Searchlight!

Thanks.

Scott wrote:I appreciate the time and effort all of you are putting into this subject and hope that GW does as well.

As both this post and FocusedFire's original are QUITE long and I have not completely read either, please forgive me if this has already been discussed:

Eldar vehicles should have some equivalent to a Searchlight!

Thanks.

I have to agree. Albeit I would rather see them get the night filter like the Tau. It always seemed stupid that the arguably most high tech race in the game preferred to fly blind while the relatively backwards imperium thought enough to put searchlights on their vehicles.

I like the knewly sugjested rules.

I'd say that Eldar vehicles should be able to shoot normally in games with the Night Fighting rule. After all, they're so sophisticated it makes sense.

Here's just a few things I've been thinking about the past few days. I'll try to make it short, as it's more of brainstorming than anything else.

Exarch powers - What if exarch powers are chosen from a pool of powers similar to Warlock powers? There could possibly be some limitations such as War Shout requiring a Banshee Mask. The idea is that the most important and role defining powers are NOT exarch powers, but squad powers and MANDATORY. Striking Scorpions would, as a squad, have Move Through Cover and Infiltrate, for example. Need something to act as a melee buffert? Striking Scorpions with Defend Exarch. Need to lay down a real long-ranged barrage? Dark Reaper Exarch with Blade Storm. Have to really punch a hole through a quad-HQ Space Wolf line? Shining Spears Exarch with War Shout. Are you playing Alaitoc and want to go all out fluff or just need to shake a fist at the Green Tide? Dire Avengers Exarch with Infiltrate.

Aspect Warriors not elite enough - Essentially, they're pants. In a universe where a Space Marine is a standard troop and you compare to Eldar Aspect Warriors, these fanatical, borderline sadistical, warrior monks have poor stats. +1A +1I for all of them and maybe souped up weapons for shooting aspects. Dire Avengers as troops is looking dubious at this stage, though. Naturally this leads to cost revamps. Duh.

Black Guardians - Not typical for Biel-Tan, Iyanden or Saim-Hann, but highly typical for Ulthwé and highly likely for nearly all minor craftworlds. These would fill the gap between Aspect Warriors and Guardians that Dire Avengers currently do. Essentially more exotically armed Guardians with better stats (+1WS & +1BS). We're talking no catapults, but an assortment of other weapons. Lasblasters, quasi-plasma, and "bone swords" (see Tyranid codex).

Mahtamori wrote:Black Guardians - Not typical for Biel-Tan, Iyanden or Saim-Hann, but highly typical for Ulthwé and highly likely for nearly all minor craftworlds. These would fill the gap between Aspect Warriors and Guardians that Dire Avengers currently do. Essentially more exotically armed Guardians with better stats (+1WS & +1BS). We're talking no catapults, but an assortment of other weapons. Lasblasters, quasi-plasma, and "bone swords" (see Tyranid codex).

I'd like something like this, just because Dire Avengers are the primary troop choice for me, outside of jetbikes. DAs can be made into Elites without too much trouble, if the Avenger Shuriken Catapult was made 1-handed, and they were given a CCW, and going with the idea of each aspect warrior getting +1A and +1I.

blackshark121 wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Black Guardians - Not typical for Biel-Tan, Iyanden or Saim-Hann, but highly typical for Ulthwé and highly likely for nearly all minor craftworlds. These would fill the gap between Aspect Warriors and Guardians that Dire Avengers currently do. Essentially more exotically armed Guardians with better stats (+1WS & +1BS). We're talking no catapults, but an assortment of other weapons. Lasblasters, quasi-plasma, and "bone swords" (see Tyranid codex).

I'd like something like this, just because Dire Avengers are the primary troop choice for me, outside of jetbikes. DAs can be made into Elites without too much trouble, if the Avenger Shuriken Catapult was made 1-handed, and they were given a CCW, and going with the idea of each aspect warrior getting +1A and +1I.

That would make for a horribly cramped Elite slot, Its full to bursting point already. That would just leave 4 flavours of Guardian (one of which would be "new" and very similar to the already used DA's anyway) and Rangers in troops. Putting DA in elite is either going to make them unused, or rob the rest of the army of CC or anti tank capability.

Honestly all I can think of would be to drop Storm Guardians. That would give us a scout style troop, a heavy weapon style troop, a jetbike troop, and an anti infantry troop, and leave the CC to the real specialists (why would you waste precious eldar lives charging blindy into an Ork mob without them been trained and armed properly for the job?).

Trashing Storm Guardians isn't such a bad idea, actually. They're going to be a pain to get right.

I like the idea of trashing storm guardians. Just allow the same special weapons option on regulard guardian defenders.

Just more options on regular guardians, no mandatory platform (dumb), potential weapon options for the squad like almost every other army's basic troops instead of all-or-nothing. Make their guns shoot a bit further, and maybe they would be worth more than an IG. Maybe just maybe they would actually be worth their X points.

I think with the poisoned weapons, invul saves, wound allocation, and FNP becoming so abundant in newer codex and important in 5th, it would be nice to see things like that. I'm pretty confident wound allocation will be revamped in 6th ed. because it is just stupid. Fortunately for Eldar, they will get their first unit where it is possible to exploit it right before the rules change again.

I don't see why a wraithlord or wraithguard wouldn't have FNP - and unaffected by poison would make sense too. a poisoned construct? stupid.

All PL should have an indestructable save. If an Autarch has access to wrist mounted force field, you'd think one of the 6 greatest Eldar warriors of all time would have it too. Stupid.

Allow shining spears to be vyper pilots too. Actually, just overhaul Vypers with some kind of ability to fire while moving fast enough to be defended by its speed. As it stands, Vypers are useless with two options: move and live, or get a shot off and die to a bolter. stupid.

Allow falcons to fire both turret weapons regardless of speed as long as it can fire one it can fire both. As it is they are meant to be fast moving gunships, but end up being either fast moving, or gunships, and Wave Serpents have better firepower than they do, as at least they are twin linked. Stupid.

The death jester's cannon fires a deadly toxic venom that causes its victims to violently erupt in a messy bio explosion... but its just venom in the description, not poison, right? stupid.

Since Harlequins do not have the same beefups available to the DE equivalent, they should not cost the same.

just off the top of my head here.

Mahtamori wrote:Trashing Storm Guardians isn't such a bad idea, actually. They're going to be a pain to get right.

That was exactly my thinking I couldn't really see a need for them, there's nothing they do that cant be done elsewhere, so why bother

DAaddict wrote:I like the idea of trashing storm guardians. Just allow the same special weapons option on regulard guardian defenders.

I suggested making these upgrade available to GJB's (when taken with a saim hann character) rather than normal guardians, any thoughts on that? How would you suggest you give defenders fusions/flamers? Instead of platforms?

yeenoghu wrote: I think with the poisoned weapons, invul saves, wound allocation, and FNP becoming so abundant in newer codex and important in 5th, it would be nice to see things like that. I'm pretty confident wound allocation will be revamped in 6th ed. because it is just stupid. Fortunately for Eldar, they will get their first unit where it is possible to exploit it right before the rules change again.
I don't see why a wraithlord or wraithguard wouldn't have FNP - and unaffected by poison would make sense too. a poisoned construct? stupid.

It would make perfect sense, its just a matter of balance though. A T8 immune to poison FNP 3+ save MC would have to cost a hell of a lot of points or it would be completely broken.

For Guardian Jetbikes, Dark Eldar can be both an indication of what is to come and what you can do.

I'm imagining the elite Black Guardians to be essentially Guardian statline +1 to skills and +1 to leadership.
Weapon options would be Lasblaster (24" S3 Ap5 assault 3), Pulse Lance (24" S6 Ap2 assault 1), and Scintillating Blades with Shuriken Pistol (close combat option, re-roll armour saves).
Possibly access to other miscellaneous options like a deep strike kit (not jump infantry, just deep striking) or similar landing gear.
Armour'd still be pants, cost would be relatively low 10 point region.

Let's consider what to do concerning removing SGs. Maybe, for every 10 Guardian Defenders, they make take one flamer or fusion gun.

Also, for black guardians, maybe they can be led by an individual Aspect Warrior unit, and let them take either a shuriken catapult, or a pistol and ccw, and get another few benefits, like an extra PW or 2 for banshees, a Scorpion Chainsword for a scorpion, fusion guns for dragons, etc... This way, they could be "aspect warriors lite", to enhance the "specialization" concept of Eldar Armies.

Their position as militia prevents them from gaining the shiny awesome gear needed to excel in close combat, while their lack of training prevents them from getting the useful special rules.
It's not that Eldar have a shortage of shiny spiffy things that they could conceivably give to them, but they do happen to have a shortage of manpower to give them to. Such precious manpower is best kept inside vehicles or manning the biggest guns.

Storm Guardians can be made to work as a flamer infantry, but this means they will be significantly more efficient than both Guardian Defenders and Dire Avengers at 2-8". Not that that is a great problem when we're increasing both of their respective ranges to 18", but the big question begs asking
What the hell are the other dudes doing there with pointy sticks when all you use is the 2-3 with flamers?

Making a troop choice unit with flamers (as in 1:1 ratio) is a bit much to stomach for non-Aspect Eldar. And dumping the Storm Guardian price to the 5-6 points they are actually worth is also quite a bit against their fluff (better dumping the unit entirely).

What is needed for Storm Guardians to perform, and we're not talking about the two guys with the flamers, is an increase in their net worth per model. This can be done by increasing their weapons to be power weapons (which would also increase their cost to near 11 per model), but that's stepping on Howling Banshees.
Increasing their attacks - Scorpions. Increasing their strength - Scorpions. Increasing their armour is conceivable, but why would they have better armour than Defenders?

I think the problem we've run into is that Storm Guardians in their current iteration simply don't fit into the fluff- there is no reason to charge Eldar en mass when they are a dying race. There is a huge amount of IG, Orks and Nids never stop regenerating, so they can afford to send a huge amount of units on charges, as opposed to the Eldar, who are technologically the strongest, and give their units pistols and knives.

I disagree that all-flamer troops is too much. The Eldar are, again, the most technological race, so it fits that they would arm basic troops to the teeth, to keep them from dying. I think raising the Shuriken Catapults' range to 18" would compensate for flamers, and lower the Avenger shuriken Catapult's AP to 4 compensate for the standard catapult. In addition, I think the DA exarch should be given, as a wargear choice, a S5 AP4 assault 2 Exarch Shuriken Catapult. I don't rate myself as a judge of overpowered-ness in the slightest, so my idea concerning shuriken catapults might be over the top, but I think that it is an idea that merits consideration.

I would like to see some of the vehicle options improved as well as a few new options and some improvements on some other units.

blackshark121 wrote:I disagree that all-flamer troops is too much. The Eldar are, again, the most technological race, so it fits that they would arm basic troops to the teeth, to keep them from dying.

Why on earth would you ever take War Walkers, Dire Avengers, Striking Scorpions or Defender Guardians when you could spend 100 points on a troop unit with 10 flamers?! They would utterly destroy any horde, and through sheer weight of numbers would cripple MEQ quads. Sure it doesnt make sense sending untrained poorly equipt eldar into battle from a fluff standpoint, but from a gameplay point of view, arming them to the teeth would be broken. Surely it would make more sense just to not have them on the battlefield at all?

not sure if this has been suggested yet because its such a massive post and i havent the time to read it, but about the all flamer unit; perhaps if fire dragons were lowered in cost (say 5pts so they would be 11pts each) and had a flamer as standard, then have the fusion gun as a 5pt upgrade (similar to in the BA dex were its a 5pts upgrade to give your termies TH/SS). this is just an of the top of the head thought but it seem to keep in theme with the "fire" dragons.

The_Solitaire wrote:not sure if this has been suggested yet because its such a massive post and i havent the time to read it, but about the all flamer unit; perhaps if fire dragons were lowered in cost (say 5pts so they would be 11pts each) and had a flamer as standard, then have the fusion gun as a 5pt upgrade (similar to in the BA dex were its a 5pts upgrade to give your termies TH/SS). this is just an of the top of the head thought but it seem to keep in theme with the "fire" dragons.

While the idea is great it is also very high powered to have a unit full of flamers. I would vote for a no cost switch out. Either flamers or melta guns for 16 each.

DAaddict wrote:

The_Solitaire wrote:not sure if this has been suggested yet because its such a massive post and i havent the time to read it, but about the all flamer unit; perhaps if fire dragons were lowered in cost (say 5pts so they would be 11pts each) and had a flamer as standard, then have the fusion gun as a 5pt upgrade (similar to in the BA dex were its a 5pts upgrade to give your termies TH/SS). this is just an of the top of the head thought but it seem to keep in theme with the "fire" dragons.

While the idea is great it is also very high powered to have a unit full of flamers. I would vote for a no cost switch out. Either flamers or melta guns for 16 each.

Fire dragons are one of the few already well balanced units, although I do like the idea of them having options for flamers their primary fucus should not change. How about "up to 2 fire dragons may replace their meltaguns with flamers for +8 pts per model. This would max out at 3 flamers (including the exarch). This way they become more versatile and cooler, but not unbalanced.

The idea has crossed my mind, as well, though I say like DAaddict - flamers are just so good, I'd say even better than meltas, that a cost decrease is not justified.

rivers64 wrote:

DAaddict wrote:

The_Solitaire wrote:not sure if this has been suggested yet because its such a massive post and i havent the time to read it, but about the all flamer unit; perhaps if fire dragons were lowered in cost (say 5pts so they would be 11pts each) and had a flamer as standard, then have the fusion gun as a 5pt upgrade (similar to in the BA dex were its a 5pts upgrade to give your termies TH/SS). this is just an of the top of the head thought but it seem to keep in theme with the "fire" dragons.

While the idea is great it is also very high powered to have a unit full of flamers. I would vote for a no cost switch out. Either flamers or melta guns for 16 each.

Fire dragons are one of the few already well balanced units, although I do like the idea of them having options for flamers their primary fucus should not change. How about "up to 2 fire dragons may replace their meltaguns with flamers for +8 pts per model. This would max out at 3 flamers (including the exarch). This way they become more versatile and cooler, but not unbalanced.

Aspect warriors are not meant to be versatile, they are meant to excel in one aspect of war to the total exclusion of all else. Giving an aspect unit multiple roles is completely contradictory to how an edar army should work. It's as fundamental to the army's design as skimmers and T3 are, if you want a versatile "jack of all trades, master of none" army, then you don't want to be playing Eldar.

well then maybe have leave them at the same cost (16pts), then have an option to have them all replace their fusion guns with flamers? also i think this idea makes the dragon's breath a more attractive choice so therefore it would need a cost increase too. perhaps 8pts so its on par with the firepike? (but in truth i really have no idea)

The Dragon's Breath is low in cost simply because it's not something you buy and use - it goes against the concept of the entire squad as it is anti-infantry in an anti-tank squad. The Fire Pike, however, is just over-costed for what it provides.

Should the squad be able to exchange their melta with flamers, then the Dragon's Breath might need to be increased in cost since it'll work very nicely with the squad.

All in favor of allowing a switchout to flamers at no cost but also universal. No squad of 5 flamers and 5 meltaguns. But if you want 10 flamers with the option of a hvy flamer for the exarch or 10 melta guns with an option of a firepike. The precident is set that the exarch can go hvy flamer or fusion gun/fire pike I have no problem with the all flamer version. I just do think in the current metagame, it is a non-starter. The eldar need AT not troop killing ability so if I am building a list I am going to field melta armed fire dragons and dire avenger squads versus fire dragon flamer squads and guardian platforms for AT.

Speaking of which... larger saturation of haywire grenade options and possibly even a fair amount of haywire launchers or similar items for exarchs?
Not truly awesome guaranteed one-shot-one-kill AT, but back up so you don't absolutely have to get Fire Dragons, maybe?

Still personnally for tossing the SH lasguns for haywire launcher/grenade launcher. Then lose the yo-yo hawk and template dropping. If you give the S3 AP6 small blast template sure potentially you will have to scatter 10 templates but who cares? This is going to give the hawks a stand-off firing capability that it currently lacks other than the stupid deep strike template drop. Haywire launcer gets them a stand off anti-tank instead of the suicidal assault to drop the haywire grenades followed by the successful blow up of the target only to be assaulted by the contents of the vehicle!!!

scattering 10 small blasts would take forever - it isn't a good mechanic.

Why not just make their las-blasters S5 Ap5 R24" Assault 1, Haywire?

Hmm, seems like we're back to square one with the Swooping Hawks again - the question what their speciality is. Is it vehicle killing (typically Fire Dragon turf, but they are Elite)? Is it infantry killing (something Warp Spiders do admirably given the chance)? Is it to fill the empty spot of mid-range MEQ killing?

Assault 1 Haywire make them undesirable attacking anything but vehicles - particularly large vehicles. Should note, though, that the haywire launcher was low both on S and AP, meaning they'd be somewhat decent against MEQ in a tight spot, and the lasblaster turned Haywire Blaster could borrow on that.

I would like us all to consolidate our thoughts into what each us us feel are the best ideas we have seen from this thread.

Then each person that wants to put those ideas into a post can do so.

It would be helpful to see what people would choose.

I will get mine up in a minute.

Gwyidion wrote:scattering 10 small blasts would take forever - it isn't a good mechanic.

Why not just make their las-blasters S5 Ap5 R24" Assault 1, Haywire?

How about 1 large blast template S= 2+ 1 per2 swooping hawks (rounded up) that means it would be a maximum of S7 AP5 blast template. 18" range is going to make it fairly short ranged. Or you can direct fire haywire grenades at a vehicle.

1. Eldar units with the fleet ability also gain Quick Feet. Quick Feet - Roll 2d6 and pick the highest when this unit runs.

2. Shuriken Catapults – Range 18”

3. Star Cannons - strength 7

4. Blade Storm – During this shooting phase, this unit’s Avenger Shuriken Catapults may gain the rending USR or act as assault 3 weapons. This unit may not use their Avenger Shuriken Catapults next shooting phase.

5. Phoenix Lords gain a 5+ invulnerable save and may select one squad of their Aspect as a troop choice.

6.

7.

8. Mind War – 10 points and add No cover saves.

9. Eldritch Storm - 10 points and range 24".

10.
11. Wraith Lords – 2nd weapon of the same type is no longer twin linked.

12.
13.Warp Spiders – Surprise Assault – This unit rolls 1d6 to determine deep strike scatter.

14. Shining Spear’s – Expand the maximum unit size to 8, 5 point cost reduction, Hit and Run = 15 points, get shuriken pistols.

15. Dark Reapers – Exarch may target a seperate unit. Change Crack Shot so it simply ignores cover saves, but it affects the entire unit.

16. Conceal – The Warlock's entire unit gains a 5+ cover save. Cover saves from terrain and units are improved by +1.

17. Wraithguard – Add a second option to the wraith cannon of range 24”, heavy 1.

18. Rangers – Ranger long rifle wounds on 3+, and has rending and pinning. Pathfinders rend on 5+.

19. Shadow Weaver gains the monofilament rule and rending, +5 points. Vibrocannon - no cover saves. D Cannon range 36" +5 points.

20. Vypers – 35 points. Eliminate access to current vehicle upgrades except spirit stones and two new ones. Stealth field – This upgrade grants stealth to the vyper (5 points each). Terrain sensors - reroll dangerous terrain checks (5 points).

21. Swooping Hawks – (2 point cost reduction) Hawk Wings - (add) Roll 1 d6 for scatter when they deep strike. Intercept (15 points) Add heroic intervention. Sky Leap (20 points) Add that they can roll to arrive from reserves 1st turn.

What about just making the unit's blasts follow the same rules as multiple barrage?

--

You'll excuse me if I am inspired by other's posts as I edit this

My preferences

Universal special rules:
* Fleet of Foot. All living or daemon Eldar. No vehicles or re-animated.
* Move Through Cover. All non-MC living Eldar.
* Exarchs are mandatory upgrades for one squad model at a baked-in cost of approximately 10 points.
* Warlocks are mandatory upgrade for one squad model at a baked-in cost of approximately 20 points.
* All aspect warriors are treated as veterans according to template. They all have +1 attack.

Psychic powers:
* Mind War removes one non-vehicle model within 18" and line of sight, regardless of toughness or wounds, the mind is weaker than the body. Allows invulnerable saves only.
* Eldritch Storm. R- S4 Ap5 Large blast, Barrage, Spinning. (Normal armour penetration)
* Conceal reads "Conceal improves the cover granted by terrain for the unit the Warlock is with by one, and as such gives a 6+ save even if the squad would not normally be concealed" (Stacks with Stealth, though unlikely to synergise, but does not stack with Turbo-boost)
* Spiritseer. Improves wraithsight range and provides wraith with Fleet.
* Others unchanged.

Exarch powers:
Chosen from a pool of powers. Each Exarch may only choose one Exarch power. (Note that this leads to better synergy with Phoenix Lords in a round-about way). The pool is as follows, and applies to all aspect warriors, Exarchs, Autarchs, and Phoenix Lords in a squad where they are present as long as the owning model is alive:
* Blade Storm. Each weapon in the squad is able to fire one additional shot, but needs to cooldown during the next shooting phase. 20 points.
* Defend. Attacks directed at the squad must re-roll their rolls to hit. 15 points.
* Withdraw. Hit & Run at the Exarch's initiative. 10 points.
* Shadowstrike. Infiltrate. 20 points.
* Warshout. Furious charge. 15 points.
* Keen Shot. Enemies must re-roll successful cover saves. 20 points.
* Acrobatics. May assault on the same turn the squad disembarks. 15 points.
<Note that these are available to all aspect warriors, even those for which they make no sense, and are meant to specialize the squad further rather than pigeon hole the squad as an option>

Weapons and upgrades.
Unit-specific weapons are located in their respective entries.
* Monofilament. This weapon attribute constitutes that the squad affected is in difficult terrain and must make a dangerous terrain test the next time it moves, for which ever reason it moves.
* Star Cannon. Change Heavy 2 to Heavy 1 Blast.
* Pulse Laser. This option is available to all units capable of choosing Star Cannons at the same price as a Star Cannon.
* Vectored Engines no longer protects against crash and burn, now provides deep strike.

HQ
* Farseer. Cost increased to 120 base. Farseers know two psychic powers. Spirit Stone replaced with Venerable upgrade and provides +1 power known and +1 power use for +50 points.
* Autarch. Provides optional +1 to reserve rolls and allows re-placement of two units per Autarch prior to scout moves during deployment. Counts as an aspect warrior (not an exarch).
* Avatar. Fleet of foot. Could fancy him up, but he's basically good as is.
* Warlock Retinue. Any psycher HQ choice may have up to 3 of these as retinue. Spiritseer upgrade now grants wraiths Fleet of Foot.
* Eldrad Ulthran. Removed.

HQ - Phoenix Lords
* All have Battle Fate (4+).
* Asurmen's Sword of Asur causes Instant Death and re-rolls melee to-hit.
* Baharroth. Remove Grenade Pack, plasma grenades, Skyleap and Intercept. Add Turbo-boost and Crack-shot.
* Jain Zar. War Shout is rolled by HER.
* Karandras. Remove Stalker.

HQ - Craftworld Specific.

Elite
* Scorpions. 20 points per model. +1 attack. Add: Infiltrate
* Banshees. 20 points per model. +1 attack. Add: Counter-assault.
* Fire Dragons. 16 points per model. +1 attack. May replace Fusion Guns with Flamers at no additional cost.
* Wraithguard. 45 points per model +1 wound. Add: Monstrous Creature. Weapon is Heavy 1 (simply to illustrate fluff at this point)
* Harlequin Troupe. 20 points per model. Add Rending to Dance of Death. Harlequin's Kiss causes instant death. Alter save to 5+ armour save, 4+ dodge.

Troop
* Storm Guardian. Removed.
* Support Platform. This is it's new home. Guardian profile +1 wound T3(5) (two crewmen, and there's only so much it can protect against)
- Shadow Weaver. Monofilament.
- D-Cannon. No further change needed.
- Vibrocannon. Ignores cover. Each additional Vibrocannon adds +1 to strength and +1 to number of hits as well as +1 to the damage roll against vehicles.
* Guardian Squad. Base squad is now 4 Guardians and 1 Warlock. May purchase one platform per 3 Guardians (Warlock doesn't count). Shuriken Catapult now has range of 18".
* Dire Avengers. 14 points per model. +1 attack. Dire Avenger Catapult is more powerful and fires shurikens with higher density, resulting in S5. Exarch option: Power weapon & Shimmer Shield now offers a 5+ invulnerable save with no melee restrictions, Diresword now causes instant death with no leadership rolls.
* Guardian Jetbikes. Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapult now has range of 18". Squad size is not 2 Guardians plus 1 Warlock with an extra 3 Guardians able to join. Any Jetbike may upgrade weapon @ old cost.
* Black Guardians. New unit, 10 points per model. 4 Guardians + 1 Warlock with extra 5 Guardians upgradable. Plasma grenades, Close Combat Weapon and Shuriken Pistol. Fleet of foot & Infiltrate. Guardian stats +1WS/BS/In. One in three Guardians may replace Shuriken Pistol with Fusion Gun or Flamer for +6 points (note, this reduces number of melee attacks). <This needs some serious thinking through... simple 2 S3 attacks in melee is still puny for their cost. They should be elite, but not as elite as Aspect Warriors>

Fast Attack.
* War Walkers. This is their new home.
* Warp Spiders. +1 attack. Monofilament (see Nightspinner). Add: Hit & Run.
* Swooping Hawks. +1 attack. Remove grenade pack, plasma grenades, and lasblaster. Add: Turbo-boost, Haywire Blaster (R24" S3 Ap3 Assault 1, Haywire). Exarch option: Hawk Talon (R24" S3 Ap3 Assault 2, Haywire), Sunrifle (unchanged)
* Shining Spears. +1 attack. Exarch option: Power weapon now comes with a Shuriken Pistol.
* Vyper. These are now Jetbikes, no longer vehicles. Guardian Jetbike profile +1 wound (two crew members) and is armed with a Shuriken Cannon. Cost of all weapons reduced by 5 points.<These are similar to SMurf bikes, but trades the grenades and +1 to all stats for -5 points and being a jetbike instead of a bike>

Heavy Support
* Falcon. This unit has Crystal Targeting Matrix, and is capable of firing one additional weapon than it normally would. <Straight up POTMS>
* Fire Prism. No further alterations needed.
* Nightspinner. 100 points per model.
* Wraithlord. Wraithsword adds +1 attack, but does not add re-roll to hit. Multiple weapons of the same kind are not twin-linked. May take two Wraithsword.
* Dark Reapers. 30 points per model. +1 attack. Add Relentless. Exarch option: Tempest Launcher is no longer barrage.

To be continued / altered. :p

Copied from above, with alterations

Universal special rules:
* Fleet of Foot. All living or daemon Eldar. No vehicles or re-animated.
* Move Through Cover. All non-MC living Eldar.
* Exarchs are mandatory upgrades for one squad model at a baked-in cost of approximately 10 points.
* Warlocks are mandatory upgrade for one squad model at a baked-in cost of approximately 20 points.
* All aspect warriors are treated as veterans according to template. They all have +1 attack.
* Wraith: Units with Wraith are undead constructs of wraithbone. They are fearless, immune to poison weapons (poison weapons or weapons which wound on a fixed roll wound on a 6+), and slow and purposeful. Slow and Purposeful is exchanged for relentless whenever the Wraith unit starts the turn within 12" of a Spiritseer.

Psychic powers:
* Mind War removes one non-vehicle model within 18" and line of sight, regardless of toughness or wounds, the mind is weaker than the body. Allows invulnerable saves only.
* Eldritch Storm. R- S4 Ap5 Large blast, Barrage, Spinning. (Normal armour penetration)
* Conceal reads "Conceal improves the cover granted by terrain for the unit the Warlock is with by one, and as such gives a 6+ save even if the squad would not normally be concealed" (Stacks with Stealth, though unlikely to synergise, but does not stack with Turbo-boost)
* Guide - Range 24". All friendly ranged attacks against the target enemy unit may reroll "to hit" rolls for one turn.
* Fortune: R 18"

PLs:
Phoenix Lords gain a 4+ invulnerable save, all squads of their aspect are scoring, one squad may be taken as a retinue (FoC free), DAs are stubborn.

Exarch powers:
* Chosen from a pool of powers. Each Exarch may only choose one Exarch power. (Note that this leads to better synergy with Phoenix Lords in a round-about way)

HQ
* Farseer. Cost increased to 120 base. Farseers know all psychic powers, cast 2 base. Spirit Stone replaced with Venerable upgrade and provides +1 power use and -5 modifier to the test for +50 points. (Question: Older Eldar, particularly Farseers, are described to have their skin become more and more like Wraithbone, and they toughen up as they grow older. +1T or is that just unnecessary fluffification?) This is why eldrad has T4 - if we kill eldrad, we can make an eldrad-like upgrade
* Autarch. Provides optional +1 to reserve rolls and allows re-placement of two units per Autarch prior to scout moves during deployment. Counts as an aspect warrior (not an exarch).
* Avatar. Fleet of foot. Could fancy him up, but he's basically good as is.
* Warlock Retinue. Any Farseer or psycher special character may have up to 3 of these as retinue. May no longer walk around on their own.

Elite
* Scorpions. 18 points per model. Natural S4, +1 attack. Add: Infiltrate, Fleet of Foot.
* Banshees. 18 points per model. +1 attack.
* Fire Dragons. 16 points per model. May replace Fusion Guns with Flamers at no additional cost. Fusion Gun: S8, Ap1, R12" Melta 1, Fusion (Fusion: Add 6" to maximum range of weapon when determining range for purposes of the Melta rule)
* Wraithguard. +1 wound, I3. Add: Monstrous Creature. Weapon is R18", Rapidfire (also, Wraithguard as MCs is a genius change, but wraithlords need more than 3w if we can take an entire squad of 2w MCs)

Heavy
* War Walkers moved to FA
* Reapers: enemy rerolls successful cover saves, Slow and Purposeful, 2+ Armor save, Exarch unchanged
* Wraithlords: see earlier post
* Fire prisms: Squadrons
* Falcons: Can upgrade turret to a 2nd pulse laser, Turret counts as single weapon

FA:
* Vypers: 2W T5 3+ armor, 1-3, may buy warlock-on-bike upgrade, unit type: jetbike
* War Walkers: 11/10/10, rest as-is
* Spiders: +1 A, weapons are monofilament, same as nightspinner
* Hawks: Multiple fire modes, S3 Ap5 R24" Assault 3, or S- Ap- R24 Assault 1, Haywire, Also have Haywire grenades, intercept, turboboost.
* Spears: "spears" are now executioners, 30ppm, 4-6, assault grenades, +1 A base.

Troop
* Storm Guardian. Removed.
* Guardian Squad. Base squad is now 4 Guardians and 1 Warlock. May purchase one platform/special weapon per 3 Guardians (Warlock doesn't count). Shuriken Catapult now has range of 18". Replace all platforms for 1 Heavy Support Platform (NOT an artillery unit) (4 gunners, who are different In Game Terms (this is wound allocation interaction), requires 2 live gunners to fire).
* Dire Avengers. 12 points per model. +1 attack. Dire Avenger Catapult is more powerful and fires shurikens with higher density, resulting in S5.

A point of further discussion: Eldar vehicles in squads.
- I see Gwydion has marked Fire Prism as squadron.

Eldar "suffer" from a lack of potent value per force organisation slot. While it is not a goal in itself to be able to make a list that's as expensive as possible, while still following FOC, the Eldar player may find that particularly Wraithlord and tank heavy lists run into a problem with the FOC.

Should Fire Prisms, Night Spinners, and Falcons be allowed to squadron? Should Wraithlords be allowed to group? How does this affect the attractiveness of the lesser Vypers and War Walkers - are they fine as they are FA or do their squadrons need to be increased?

One thing to remember is that Eldar tanks tend to be on the large side, meaning a squadron of three may be hard to fit together properly on the table.
On the other hand, it does provide a nice way of dealing with Fire Prism linking (although there's little sense in linking 3 prisms for a focused blast.)

Mahtamori wrote:A point of further discussion: Eldar vehicles in squads.

I think the FP is the most likely to be squadroned, yet it really reduces the cool factor of bouncing a shot across the board to pair up two prisms.

How about a Necron Tomb Spyder treatment. You can take up to 3 in one FOC slot, but they act as independant models.

Wraith Lords would be awesome grouped up, but I would rather see them sprinkled into other slots. We saw the Farseer Wraith Lord from Forge World. I can see another IC type of WL in a troop slot, or allow a WL to join a Wraithguard unit that is 10 strong and taken as a troop choice. Make it an upgrade of the Warlock. A Warlock Wraith Lord leading Wraithguard.

Matt Ward could only dream of such imagination.

Falcons seem like command vehicles and should not be squadroned, IMHO. I would not mind seeing Nightspinners able to group up to increase the strength of their web. I like them for the same treatment as the FP's.

Love this stuff

Random thought: Falcons as dedicated transports for specific HQ choices (essentially HQ that can take retinue, i.e. Farseers and possibly PLs or maybe Warlocks) but otherwise HS if taken separately.

It's sort of funny, I always viewed the Falcons as the typical run-in-group assault vehicle while the spinner and prisms I view as fire support. I.e. the reverse of your view ArmyC.

My view is to look at the codex in 2 ways.

First are the small changes that could be made right now and accepted among my play group that would allow me to use more models, and play more ways effectively. This is where I am putting most of my effort.

Second are the things that a new codex ought to have to make eldar competitive, and as fun and cool, as they ought to be.

I think much of Mahtamori's and Gwyidion's efforts fit in the second catagory.

Many of the ideas there are super cool and would be very effective and could be balanced, but a few of them would not "feel" very Eldarish to many long time players.

Something I run into from long time players are comments like, "But that isn't the way X is supposed to be." This shows that there is a very strong momentum of story behind all of these units, stats and abilities.

GW is all about story driven gaming. I feel like Exarchs drawing from a pool of abilities is contrary to the storyline of what aspect warriors are. Their wargear and fighting style is very ritualistic and it is written into all the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:Random thought: Falcons as dedicated transports for specific HQ choices (essentially HQ that can take retinue, i.e. Farseers and possibly PLs or maybe Warlocks) but otherwise HS if taken separately.

I have always liked Flacons as dedicated transports. Other codices have gone that way as well.

Phoenix Lords with a 5 man retinue certainly ought to have access to a Falcon.

A Farseer with 5 Warlocks would be perfect in a Falcon.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have an idea.

Following the GW trend to create IC as a means to give special rules to the army, Eldar IC's should be identified with a certain craftworld. I would love to see unique Autarch's, Farseer's, Warlocks, Exarchs, etc. all identified with a specific craftworld, and following that fluff and style.

Then an Eldar general rule should be that you cannot mix charactures from different craftworlds in the same army.

Due to that restriction, you can be more imaginative with the models, because you don't have to worry about OP combinations.

It's a fair point regarding the ritualistic and excessively focused way of combat, however, some abilities just doesn't make sense.

Why would a Striking Scorpion not take infiltrate, unless you're meta-gaming? Striking Scorpions are sneaky (actually, all Eldar are.)
Then there are the abilities which, honestly, are just a pile of dung and costed thereafter. Surprise Assault doesn't even work and was very situational even when it did. Intercept is good, but those flies often make a mess of themselves at the same time as the Land Raider (or get stomped the turn after.)

The gist of the matter is, there are several good abilities, and there's room to make the Exarchs much more interesting. Following that line of thought further;

Exarchs in squads must purchase an upgrade, may choose between two, but may not pick both. The upgrade or ability is not necessarily unique to the squad, but optimized for it.
* Blade Storm, for instance, is a sort of god-send for Dark Reapers, so their Exarch should be able to take that one.
* Infiltrate is another of those upgrades that could benefit the Eldar army in several places, especially those who wish to make their army Alaitoc.
etc

For instance, Banshee squad could look like thus:
4 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch 110 points.
WS/BS4, S/T3, W1, A2, I5, Ld9
PW+Pistol, Mask.
Additional Banshees at +18 points per model.
Exarch must choose one of:
* Shadowstalker (Infiltrate)
* War Shout (When using Banshee Mask, models in base contact with Exarch has WS1 for that turn) alt (Squad has FC)

Scorpions
4 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch 110 points.
WS/BS4, S/T3, W1, A2, I5, Ld9
SCS+Pistol, Mandiblasters.
Additional Scorpions at +18 points per model.
Exarch must choose one of:
* Shadowstalker (Infiltrate)
* Defend (Models in base contact with squad loses one attack to a minimum of 1)

(Exarch upgrade is calculated at +20 points, where it should be noted that Exarchs provide lower benefits than other squad leaders which are at times completely free in other codexes, so the +20 points is both for the additional attack at higher I as well as the power)

The difficulty is to NOT make a choice where one of the abilities is a dubious 5 pointer and the other is an awesome 20 pointer.

I like talking about eldar and reading what others have to say, so i'm bumping and updating my take on our changes, by stealing mahtamori's format and making changes.

changes in bold

Mahtamori wrote:
--
My preferences

Universal special rules:
* Fleet of Foot. All living or daemon Eldar. No vehicles or re-animated.
* Move Through Cover. All non-MC living Eldar.
* Exarchs are mandatory upgrades for one squad model at a baked-in cost of approximately 10 points.
* Warlocks are mandatory upgrade for one squad model at a baked-in cost of approximately 20 points.
* All aspect warriors are treated as veterans according to template. They all have +1 attack.
* Wraith: Units with Wraith are undead constructs of wraithbone. They are fearless, immune to poison weapons (poison weapons or weapons which wound on a fixed roll wound on a 6+), and slow and purposeful. Slow and Purposeful is exchanged for relentless whenever the Wraith unit starts the turn within 12" of a Spiritseer.

Psychic powers:
* Mind War removes one non-vehicle model within 18" and line of sight, regardless of toughness or wounds, the mind is weaker than the body. Allows invulnerable saves only.
* Eldritch Storm. R- S4 Ap4 Large blast, Barrage, Spinning. (Normal armour penetration)
* Conceal reads "Conceal improves the cover granted by terrain for the unit the Warlock is with by one, and as such gives a 6+ save even if the squad would not normally be concealed" (Stacks with Stealth, though unlikely to synergise, but does not stack with Turbo-boost)
* Spiritseer. Improves wraithsight range and replaces Slow & Purposeful with Relentless. Standard on farseer, upg on warlock.
* Others unchanged.


Weapons and upgrades.
Unit-specific weapons are located in their respective entries.
* Monofilament. This weapon attribute constitutes that the squad affected is in difficult terrain and must make a dangerous terrain test the next time it moves, for which ever reason it moves.
* Star Cannon. Change Heavy 2 to Heavy 1 Blast.
* Pulse Laser. This option is available to all units capable of choosing Star Cannons at the same price as a Star Cannon.
* Vectored Engines no longer protects against crash and burn, now provides deep strike.
* Haywire. Vehicles which suffer hits from a Haywire weapon are glanced on a d6 roll of 2-4, penetrated on 5-6 instead of using the weapon's strength. Non-vehicle units are not affected by this attribute.

HQ
* Farseer. Cost increased to 120 base. Farseers know, and can use two psychic powers. Spirit Stone replaced with Venerable upgrade and provides +1 power known and +1 power use for +50 points.
* Autarch. Provides optional +1 to reserve rolls and allows re-placement of two units per Autarch prior to scout moves during deployment. Counts as an aspect warrior (not an exarch), each autarch may designate a single board edge which is not listed in the scenario rules as 'belonging' to the opposing player as an additional table edge belonging to the eldar player, for reserve purposes.
* Avatar. Fleet of foot. Eternal Warrior. Could fancy him up, but he's basically good as is.
* Warlock Retinue. Any psycher HQ choice may have up to 3 of these as retinue. Spiritseer upgrade now replaces Slow & Purposeful with Relentless.
* Eldrad Ulthran. Removed.

HQ - Phoenix Lords
* Disciples: All aspect warriors of the same aspect as a phoenix lord are stubborn. When the PL is in the same squad, they are fearless. The attaches squad is also scoring.
* All have Battle Fate (4+).
* Asurmen's Sword of Asur causes Instant Death on failed opponent T test and re-rolls melee to-hit and wound.
* Baharroth. Remove Grenade Pack, plasma grenades, Skyleap and Intercept. Add Turbo-boost and Crack-shot.
* Jain Zar. War Shout is rolled by HER.
* Karandras. Remove Stalker.

HQ - Craftworld Specific.

Elite
* Scorpions. 20 points per model. +1 attack. Add: Infiltrate
* Banshees. 20 points per model. +1 attack, S4 natural, exarch 2+ armor save. Add: Counter-assault.
* Fire Dragons. 16 points per model. +1 attack. Add 6" to the range of their weapons when determining half-range for melta rule (makes them able to 2d6 tanks from 9", greatly protecting them from explosions).
* Wraithguard. 35ppm, 2w, S6, have S&P or Relentless from Wraith rule, weapon is R18, Rapidfire.
* Harlequin Troupe. 20 points per model. Add Rending to Dance of Death. Harlequin's Kiss causes instant death. Alter save to 5+ armour save, 4+ dodge. Enemy unit leadership values within 12" of a Troupe Master, Death Jester, or Spiritseer are modified by -2.

Troop
* Storm Guardian. Removed.
* Guardian Squad. Base squad is now 4 Guardians, 1 Warlock. May purchase one platform per 3 Guardians (Warlock doesn't count). Shuriken Catapult now has range of 18". if the squad numbers 9 guardians and 1 warlock, may forfeit all platforms to purchase a single Support Platform.
* Support Platform. This is it's new home. Guardian profile +1 wound T3(5) (two crewmen, and there's only so much it can protect against)
- Shadow Weaver. Monofilament.
- D-Cannon. R30".
- Vibrocannon. Ignores cover. Each additional Vibrocannon adds +1 to strength and +1 to number of hits as well as +1 to the damage roll against vehicles.
* Dire Avengers. 14 points per model. +1 attack. Dire Avenger Catapult is more powerful and fires shurikens with higher density, resulting in S5. Exarch option: Power weapon & Shimmer Shield now offers a 5+ invulnerable save with no melee restrictions, Diresword now causes instant death on failed T test by wounded model.
* Guardian Jetbikes. Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapult now has range of 18". Squad size is now 2 Guardians plus 1 Warlock with an extra 3 Guardians able to join. Any Jetbike may upgrade weapon @ old cost.
* Black Guardians. New unit, 10 points per model. 4 Guardians + 1 Warlock with extra 5 Guardians upgradable. Plasma grenades, Close Combat Weapon and Shuriken Pistol. Fleet of foot & Infiltrate. Guardian stats +1WS/BS/In. One in three Guardians may replace Shuriken Pistol with Fusion Gun or Flamer for +6 points (note, this reduces number of melee attacks). <This needs some serious thinking through... simple 2 S3 attacks in melee is still puny for their cost. They should be elite, but not as elite as Aspect Warriors> SM scouts do pretty ok in their role with similarly paltry combat ability and limited weapon options, though they serve as sergeant delivery systems from OT transports....

Fast Attack.
* War Walkers. This is their new home.
* Warp Spiders. +1 attack. Monofilament (see Nightspinner). Add: Hit & Run.
* Swooping Hawks. +1 attack. Remove grenade pack, plasma grenades, and lasblaster. Retain: Intercept, Add: Haywire Grenades, Skyleap(Turbo-boost), Haywire Blaster (R24" S3 Ap5 Assault 3, OR R24" S- Ap6, Assault 1,Haywire). Exarch option: Hawk Talon (Power weapon, Haywire) , Sunrifle (R24" S3 AP5 Assault 6, OR R24" S- AP6 Assault3, Haywire)
* Shining Spears. +1 attack. Laser Lance: This weapon is a 2 handed power weapon which adds +2 strength in close combat. In addition, the user gains +1 strength for every 9 inches moved in total in the movement and assault phase immediately prior to striking. Assault grenades.
* Vyper. These are now Jetbikes, no longer vehicles. Guardian Jetbike profile +1 wound (two crew members) and is armed with a Shuriken Cannon. Cost of all weapons reduced by 5 points.<These are similar to SMurf bikes, but trades the grenades and +1 to all stats for -5 points and being a jetbike instead of a bike> All Vypers must be identically equipped.

Heavy Support
* Falcon. This unit has Crystal Targeting Matrix, and is capable of firing one additional weapon than it normally would. <Straight up POTMS>
* Fire Prism. No further alterations needed. Three fire prisms may be purchased as a squadron, however, they function as independent units for all game purposes.
* Nightspinner. 100 points per model.
* Wraithlord. Wraithsword adds +1 attack, but does not add re-roll to hit. Multiple weapons of the same kind are not twin-linked. May take two Wraithsword. 2+ armor save (protects against the ubiquitous krak missle, but lascannons & rending still bypass.
* Dark Reapers. 30 points per model. +1 attack. Add Relentless. Exarch option: Tempest Launcher is no longer barrage. 2+ armor save (still T3, still just 5 of them, not OP)

I'm going to try and summaries things that are approaching a consensus within the recent summaries.

Codex-wide Special Rules.
Fleet of Foot - Avatar, Scorpions, Spiders, (Eldrad), etc receive it as well. Wraiths do not.
Conceal - Adds a stealth effect.
Aspect Warriors - gain one base attack.
Exarchs and Warlocks - these are all mandatory.

Weapons and items
Shuriken Catapults - Range 18"

HQ
Phoenix Lords - One squad of their aspect become scoring. One way or another.
Warlock - Spiritseer upgrade also provides better movement for Wraiths (either S&P->Relentless or +Fleet)

Elite


Troop
Support Weapon Platform - either integration into Guardian Defender or move to this position.
Support Weapon Platform (Shadow Weaver) - Monofilament
Support Weapon Platform (Vibro Cannon) - Ignores cover
(Guardian - 18" Catapults)
Dire Avenger - Stronger shots (S5?)

Fast Attack
War Walker - moved here
Warp Spiders - shooting weapon is monofilament

Heavy Support
Dark Reapers - Crack Shot combats cover saves for the entire unit. Either re-roll or completely.
Dark Reapers - More team-oriented abilities on exarch
Dark Reapers - Relentless
Falcon - Crystal Targeting Matrix (POTMS)
Wraithlord - No twin-linking
Wraithlord - Capable of taking dual sword

Stuff that are worth discussing
Banshees - With an extra attack, is 16 points too low?
Banshees - With an extra attack, would they still need more strength?
Banshees - Should they have counter-attack as base?
Exarchs - Several exarchs need their abilities looked at.
Scorpions - With an extra attack, is 16 points too low?
Scorpions - With Banshees having an extra attack, the Scorpions is less ahead in the number of attacks, are they still comparatively viable?
Scorpions - Should they have Infiltrate as base?
Shining Spears - With an extra attack, do they need further buffs?
Swooping Hawks - Are we settled on their counter-vehicle role?
Swooping Hawks - Counter-vehicle is a bit slim of a role, their out-of-role secondary - anti-MEQ or anti-GEQ? (Forgeworld has set the precedent that Haywire weapons are low strength with good armour piercing)
Swooping Hawks - These, more than any other Eldar jump infantry, could use something that allows them to avoid standing all in a small blast formation.
Wraithguard - D-weaponry with high rate of fire - good idea or not?
Wraithguard - Melee weapon power weapon?
Wraithguard - More survivability? How?
Wraithguard - All of the above? And how much would that cost?

Guardians. Again.
<Standard profile> 55 points.
Squad: Four Guardians and one Warlock.
Weapon: Shuriken Catapult.
Upgrades:
* Up to five additional Guardians may be added to the unit for +8 points per model
* Any model in the squad may exchange their Shuriken Catapult with a Shuriken Pistol and a Monofilament Edge (force re-roll armour saves) at no additional cost.
* For every three Guardians in the unit, one model may replace their weapons with a special weapon from the following list: Fusion Gun (+5 points), Flamer (+5 points), Shuriken Cannon platform (+5 points) etc
* Warlock may choose one Warlock power from (etc)
* One squad of Guardians may be upgraded to Black Guardians at +2 points per model, Black Guardians receive a bonus to Weapon Skill, Ballistics Skill, and Initiative of +1.
* The squad may take a Wave Serpent as a dedicated transport.

...and then you get support weapon squad as a troop choice.

<Further edits may be added...>

lots of cool ideas

Comments in orange, changes are crossed out and suggestions are written after each strike out.

Mahtamori wrote:
Stuff that are worth discussing
Banshees - With an extra attack, is 16 points too low? I wouldn't think an extra attack is needed, IMO they'd be better off with a few S4 than a lot of S3
Banshees - With an extra attack, would they still need more strength? See above
Banshees - Should they have counter-attack Furious Charge as base? Yes
Exarchs - Several exarchs need their abilities looked at. Yes
Scorpions - With an extra attack, is 16 points too low? It wouldnt be too low I don't think, It just depends if we give them USR's that the points might have to be increased
Scorpions - With Banshees having an extra attack, the Scorpions is less ahead in the number of attacks, are they still comparatively viable? See previous points
Scorpions - Should they have Infiltrate as base? If the points are increased then I think it would make sense
Shining Spears - With an extra attack, do they need further buffs? hit and run 18" rather than 3D6"?
Swooping Hawks - Are we settled on their counter-vehicle role? To make life easier, yes. Maybe make them anti artillery? so they drop in in the backfield and mess up basalisk's ect?
Swooping Hawks - Counter-vehicle is a bit slim of a role, their out-of-role secondary - anti-MEQ or anti-GEQ? (Forgeworld has set the precedent that Haywire weapons are low strength with good armour piercing)
Swooping Hawks - These, more than any other Eldar jump infantry, could use something that allows them to avoid standing all in a small blast formation. "All models must be depoyed withing 6" of the first deep striking model, rather than in base to base"?
Wraithguard - D-weaponry with high rate of fire - good idea or not?
Wraithguard - Melee weapon power weapon?
Wraithguard - More survivability? How?
Wraithguard - All of the above? And how much would that cost? I'd leave them as is, but with the Wraith rule posted above. Poisoned weapons/ snipers all wound on 6+ and have FNP

Guardians. Again.
<Standard profile> 60 points.
Squad: Four Five Guardians and one Warlock.
Weapon: Shuriken Catapult.
Upgrades:
* Up to five additional Guardians may be added to the unit for +8 points per model
* Any model in the squad may exchange their Shuriken Catapult with a Shuriken Pistol and a Monofilament Edge (force re-roll armour saves) at no additional cost.
* For every three five Guardians in the unit, one model may replace their weapons with a special weapon from the following list: Fusion Gun (+5 points), Flamer (+5 points), Shuriken Cannon platform (+5 points) etc
*If a unit includes 2 heavy weapons platforms they may both be replaced by a single support platform for x points
* Warlock may choose one Warlock power from (etc)
* One squad of Guardians may be upgraded to Black Guardians at +2 points per model, Black Guardians receive a bonus to Weapon Skill, Ballistics Skill, and Initiative of +1.
* The squad may take a Wave Serpent as a dedicated transport.

...and then you get support weapon squad as a troop choice.

<Further edits may be added...>

Maybe Farseers able to use a Web Way Portal because really DE can so why can't normal Eldar.

Mahtamori wrote:Aspect Warriors not elite enough - Essentially, they're pants. In a universe where a Space Marine is a standard troop and you compare to Eldar Aspect Warriors, these fanatical, borderline sadistical, warrior monks have poor stats. +1A +1I for all of them and maybe souped up weapons for shooting aspects. Dire Avengers as troops is looking dubious at this stage, though. Naturally this leads to cost revamps. Duh.

* Fire Dragons. 16 points per model. +1 attack. May replace Fusion Guns with Flamers at no additional cost.

Gwyidion wrote:
* Scorpions. 18 points per model. Natural S4, +1 attack. Add: Infiltrate, Fleet of Foot.
* Banshees. 18 points per model. +1 attack.
* Fire Dragons. 16 points per model. May replace Fusion Guns with Flamers at no additional cost. Fusion Gun: S8, Ap1, R12" Melta 1, Fusion (Fusion: Add 6" to maximum range of weapon when determining range for purposes of the Melta rule)
* Dire Avengers. 12 points per model. +1 attack. Dire Avenger Catapult is more powerful and fires shurikens with higher density, resulting in S5.

partially agree that Aspect Warriors should have 2 attacks, dont know about Init 6, IMHO 5 is high enough.
it should not be a free upgrade though. Looking at rules around the game, +1 attack is typically +3 or 4 points per model, even on shooty squads like DE trueborn.

seeing that; keeping FD, one of the best units in the current dex the same cost but giving them +1 attack, more weapon options, and better melta rules seems OP.
similarly taking DA, a unit already taken by most Eldar armies currently and adding +1 attack and +1 Str weapons for no additonal cost also seems OP.

with +1 attack only, I would say Banshees 20 points, Scorpions 19 points DA 15 points FD 19 points. No additional melta rules or flamers. With those costs on DA and FD, you might not WANT +1 attack on all aspect warriors.

look at DE trueborn for a second. 12 points instead of 9 and they get +1Ld and +1attack. With a blaster(most often worse than a meltagun) they are 27 points each with worse armor than firedragons. FD for 19 points with +1 attack would still be a very good unit.


on another note while thinking about FD for a second. What about swapping out their meltaguns for heat lances for a mild reduction in points? Better range, lower strenght, lance rules. IMHO the heat lance should be str7, like the DL/BL is -1 from a lascannon. Anyway just a thought.

The Avatar has to go up in points, although I play Eldar I have to admit that 155 points for an Avatar is too cheap.

If you take a Farseer with Fortune as well it becomes seriously hard.

Mahtamori wrote:Psychic powers:
* Mind War removes one non-vehicle model within 18" and line of sight, regardless of toughness or wounds, the mind is weaker than the body. Allows invulnerable saves only.

totally OP

compare to Gift of Chaos, requires a T test, 6" range has to be used at the beginning of the turn. Doesnt allow ++ saves, but still. Something that can remove a 250+ point character and has a threat range of 32"(falcon12 disembark2 range18) with no test at all is WAY TOO GOOD.