Do the Tau have what it takes to defeat the untold horrors of the 40k universe? Will they be able to stop the green tide of orks and the floods of tyranids? Will there be a day when the tau banner flies over all of the universe? Or will the mighty Imperium or the Chaos forces crash down and completely wipe them off the map?
This is a set up for a good ol' fashioned Tau bash. Yeeeehaw. Let's wait until all the parties concerned arrive.
No, they don't have what it takes currently. Their FTL travel is sub par. Not up to task when it comes to a Galaxy wide empire. They still use short warp jumps like the humans of the way gone times. It works for them now because they're small but it won't work later.
The Imperium is too bogged down in other wars. Chaos wants nothing to do with them. Necrons would respect their honor. Dark Eldar only raid. Eldar will mostly leave them alone. Orks can't unite on the scale required to deal with them.
ironhand45 wrote:Do the Tau have what it takes to defeat the untold horrors of the 40k universe? Will they be able to stop the green tide of orks and the floods of tyranids? Will there be a day when the tau banner flies over all of the universe? Or will the mighty Imperium or the Chaos forces crash down and completely wipe them off the map?
First let me show you how big universe really is ( well not the universe itself, but what we can see with HABL ):
And the answer is: NO.
Without the Imperium Tau would get eathen twice already by Tyranids.
They never face big Ork WARGHHHHHH!!!!
Or a great Daemon invasion scale of Armageddon one.
Or a Imperial Crusade scale of Solar Macharious one.
They have inferior technology when it comes to big guns and FTL travel.
and so on....
And this is for my good old Tau friend Beef and Kroothawk:
P.S. The funny thing about this video is: Tau didn't kill even one Sister, why they killed bunch of Tau + Grater Knarlock. Emperor's blessing indeed
Funny thing about that Soulstorm game, I killed thousands of Sisters of battle, Blood Ravens, orks ,eldar etc with my Tau and ultimatly drove them from the system, so does that make it offical as well, or just a freaking game.
BTW Coa, for someone who thinks so little of the Tau, you sure do talk about them alot....maybe your a closet Tau, just cant face the truth.
Leave them alone and go paint some minis and play some actual games, and lay off the fluff for a bit, it seems to have adled you faculties.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Funny thing about that Soulstorm game, I killed thousands of Sisters of battle, Blood Ravens, orks ,eldar etc with my Tau and ultimatly drove them from the system, so does that make it offical as well, or just a freaking game.
Actually, Relic stated that IG won the campaign in Soulstorm. Driving every other faction out there. There is even war gear in DoW II to point at this.
BTW Coa, for someone who thinks so little of the Tau, you sure do talk about them alot....maybe your a closet Tau, just cant face the truth.
Leave them alone and go paint some minis and play some actual games, and lay off the fluff for a bit, it seems to have adled you faculties.
I would play minis if I had more money to buy some, I have 360 point army thus far.
And I talk about them so much because they are lot of thread about them, and 50% of them are on the same subject.
And how am I a traitor if I know a lot about one xeno race? I know history off all xeno races in most sci-fi genres.
I will read as much as I want whenever I want, unless to much reading is bad for people...
BrainDeleted wrote:Back to the thread at hand, how do the Tau overcome their limitations and strike out beyond the Eastern Fringe?
By assimilating what they conquer and recruiting new Alien species into the Tau. I have a very strong suspicion that the Tau have the technological ability to extend the quantity of raw matierals and 'limited' raw materials, so one of the colonies resources lasts longer and begins to grow.
If the Demiurg are coming about in the new codex, then Tau get another advantageous boon of Demiurg Ship Technology.
Its through small victories and strong alliances that will allow the Tau to reach into such territories as Ultramar and the Ghoul Stars. The future of the Tau is bright, and even the Eldar see great potential within them.
There are two known options here: Warp travel and Webway travel. It's highly unlikely the Tau will be able to penetrate the Webway. No one's done it besides the newcrons. I mean penetrate as in make their own webway gates, not just jack an open one. That's not reliable FTL.
Warp travel is much easier to achieve, they actually have...Sort of. They use a method that harkens back to the early days of humanity: Short, controlled warp jumps. Like skimming the warp. It works but it is not fast enough over large distances unlike the Imperium's warp jumps which can go from point A to point B entirely through the warp. Why can the Tau not achieve this? Because they lack the psykic potential to 'navigate' the warp as well as a 'landmark' or beacon in the warp to navigate by which the Imperials have the Astronomicon for...So the Tau have to either develop a psykic potential within themselves or make use of some xenos. Possible, I suppose, but they also need something equivalent to Gellar Fields to protect them in the warp. Then they need warp drives capable of the task. I suppose that is possible through reverse engineering Imperial tech though that would be quite a task and everything would have to be adapted to the specific needs of the Tau.
Or they could invent something else entirely which...Ha...That's it's own set of problems.
Why not have a device that does mutiple short jumps through the warp. It removes the rather dumb idea of confining the tau and its not as good as the older races warp drive. Or am I wrong?
Who knows what the next bout of fluff can bring until it arrives, they can easily set the entire fluff nazi's world on end by saying the Tau develop a artificial wormhole drive, or somesuch as a way for them to overcome the tech gap, or they just pat their head and say booga booga, and they are there...its just lines of text in a book to them, but to the fans its gospel.
Space Crusader wrote:Why not have a device that does mutiple short jumps through the warp. It removes the rather dumb idea of confining the tau and its not as good as the older races warp drive. Or am I wrong?
Space Crusader
I don't know what you're asking. AFAIK the Tau do just that currently...Short jumps. It's slow, too slow. Like you said?
I doubt GW will add the Demiurg because they really dont have much to them just as being trade partners with the Tau. The Imperium rarely sees them too. The Tau could always to the orky way and take junk Imperial ship drives and adapt them to Tau ways. Or take it, study it, make their own version, and prosper.
The problem is more about navigation. The Tau have no way to navigate the warp on their own. They would need to capture Imperial navigators to achieve this or use some other race somehow...Either way, not too reliable.
Step 1: Unite the Eastern Fringe.
Step 2: Bridge the technological gap in travel methods.
Step 3: Double empire size every 50 years. (C:SM)
Step 4: Take Macragge.
Not like any of these steps are even required though, humans surrender to the Greater Good so fast, it's almost always a war of reclamation on the Imperiums part.
ironhand45 wrote:I doubt GW will add the Demiurg because they really dont have much to them just as being trade partners with the Tau. The Imperium rarely sees them too. The Tau could always to the orky way and take junk Imperial ship drives and adapt them to Tau ways. Or take it, study it, make their own version, and prosper.
They had ships and fluff in Battle Fleet Galactic.
The Tau cannot conquer the Imperium militarily as they are.
However, they don't need to. The Imperium's own policies drive heresy and treason. All the Tau need to do is say the right thing to the right people and entire systems fall without a shot being fired.
Now the FTL question is an interesting one. Those wh say Tau FTL doesn't use the Warp are incorrect. What happens is the Tau skim along the very edge of the warp, rather than plunging inside of it. So far this limits them to short jumps, but if they could find the way to keep riding the edge of the Warp potentially they could go as far and as fast as those that go into the Warp, without the excessive side effects.
The tau have access to those able to navigate the Warp already (Demi-urg, human allies and even the Kroot possess some ability in these regards) plus the Tau are currently able to navigate their Warp's edge style jumps.
So the Tau don't necessarily need to develop new warp technology, but could get away with improving what they got.
However, the Tau are also known for their ability to trade for technology. Relations between the Eldar and the Tau seem decent enough and there are persistent rumours that the Eldar have altered the Tau in some fasion. Perhaps in time the Eldar access to the Webway could be negotiated by the Tau.
But again, I suspect that these are developments that would be more salient in a game of WH45K than WH40K.
Ultimately though, th Tau do not want to destroy the Imperium. What they want to do might not even be fully described as conquering them. Ultimately, what the Tau want to do is to teach the Imperium about the benefits of giving themselves over to the Greater Good.
I'm not a Tau hater but in all fairness I do think there's a lot of Imperium genocide fantasy threads as well (look at all the "will the Imperium fall" and "how will the Imperium die" stuff) and to a lesser extent Craftworld Eldar. It comes with being seen as the "better guys" (I don't use good guys to describe them).
Harriticus wrote:
I'm not a Tau hater but in all fairness I do think there's a lot of Imperium genocide fantasy threads as well (look at all the "will the Imperium fall" and "how will the Imperium die" stuff) and to a lesser extent Craftworld Eldar. It comes with being seen as the "better guys" (I don't use good guys to describe them).
ironhand45 wrote:Do the Tau have what it takes to defeat the untold horrors of the 40k universe? Will they be able to stop the green tide of orks and the floods of tyranids? Will there be a day when the tau banner flies over all of the universe? Or will the mighty Imperium or the Chaos forces crash down and completely wipe them off the map?
First, the Orks. No, if the Eldar couldn't do it at the height of the their Empire, and the Imperium couldn't do it during the Great Crusade, then the Tau can't do it either.
Two, the Tyranids. Impossible. The Imperium has to increase recruiting 500 percent just to defeat the Tyranid Hive Fleets not yet arrived, and when you consider that the Imperium rules over a million worlds, the Tau just can't defeat the Tyranids completely.
Three, the Tau conquer the galaxy. Impossible. Even if they reverse-engineer other races warp technology, they couldn't use it because it needs psychic abilities to use. The Ethereal Caste forbade further psychic research after the Fall of Medusa V. So it's not gonna happen.
Four, will the Imperium or Chaos destroy the Tau Empire? The Imperium has other, more important concerns to waste it's time on the Tau. As for Chaos, it's only a matter of time before a gue'vasa psyker gets influenced by Chaos and opens a daemonic portal, or something similar happens. Without psychic abilities and true awareness of the warp, it's impossible to fight Chaos effectively.
To sum it up, the Imperium probably won't end the Tau, it'll be the Orks, the Tyranids, or the Forces of Chaos.
The Greater Good died on Ancient Terra long ago, it will die again in the grim, dark, future...
Is all that really needed, Wouldn't it be best to just let it go? I get it, you like Tau, they don't, but at some point its better to let him go on liking red, and you go on liking blue. As long as they aren't hurting anybody cause they like red who cares?
I contacted the MODs to close the Tau vs Imperium thread. I am tired of the sides throwing feces at each other like monkeys. That is why I think Tau fans should ignore Imperials and show them the picture.
No, the funny thing is that in reality that one marine would probably beat a whole unit of crisis suits. Still, it's a funny pic and a really well-done piece of work.
agnosto wrote:No, the funny thing is that in reality that one marine would probably beat a whole unit of crisis suits. Still, it's a funny pic and a really well-done piece of work.
One marine beating three crissis suits. Why do you think that?
agnosto wrote:No, the funny thing is that in reality that one marine would probably beat a whole unit of crisis suits. Still, it's a funny pic and a really well-done piece of work.
One marine beating three crissis suits. Why do you think that?
Ok, one grey knight with his force weapon could ID the whole unit before they even get a chance to strike. It might take 2-3 vanilla marines and just one plague marine with a power fist.
Tadashi wrote:I don't think so. One squad maybe, but not one marine.
I think you underestimate how easy it is to kill tau in close combat. Low WS and low initiative ensure that you lose 1 or 2 suits before you get to swing back. Sure it would probably take more than 1 marine but not much more than one, especially if power weapons are involved.
Battlesuits are surprisingly good in close combat. And your also trying to sword fight someone with a freaken jetpack. you would need a jetpack just to get to them and that still dosen't stop them form hop shooting back and forth.
Tadashi wrote:I don't think so. One squad maybe, but not one marine.
I think you underestimate how easy it is to kill tau in close combat. Low WS and low initiative ensure that you lose 1 or 2 suits before you get to swing back. Sure it would probably take more than 1 marine but not much more than one, especially if power weapons are involved.
In assault phase Tau will almost always get owned. But in ranged, one regular marine can't take on a battlesuit team, unless he's got special abilities or an independent character.
I don't get all the Tau hate. They're hardly my favorite faction but they do bring a fresh military sci-fi feel that's grounded in reality (drones & tech, not psychic stuff). Also having a faction that is not completely psychotic can be refreshing.
Harriticus wrote:I don't get all the Tau hate. They're hardly my favorite faction but they do bring a fresh military sci-fi feel that's grounded in reality (drones & tech, not psychic stuff). Also having a faction that is not completely psychotic can be refreshing.
Thats exactly what I think everytime I see all this hate. It may not be the thing I like, but I wont bash everything about them just because I dont like them.
Only one name among the Tau have I ever respected: Commander Farsight. He alone it seems among the Tau understands the true reality of the grim, dark future. To quote Codex: Tau, 4th Edition, p.44: "Each must find their own way. If those in our heartland had witnessed the savageries of the void as have we they would know this. The hand of each of the starfarers is turned against the other; none will join their strength together just to see their ancient enemies prosper. Neither should we.". - Attr Commander Farsight 765.M41
Tadashi wrote:Only one name among the Tau have I ever respected: Commander Farsight. He alone it seems among the Tau understands the true reality of the grim, dark future. To quote Codex: Tau, 4th Edition, p.44: "Each must find their own way. If those in our heartland had witnessed the savageries of the void as have we they would know this. The hand of each of the starfarers is turned against the other; none will join their strength together just to see their ancient enemies prosper. Neither should we.". - Attr Commander Farsight 765.M41
Well, one could argue that Farsight is delusional, a throwback to the bad old times of near racial extinction.
Besides that, the relative success of the multi species Tau Empire which went from a single system to a regional power in just 300 years, proves him wrong.
At least until an Armageddon-level Waaaaaggghh!!!!!!!!!!!!! hits their Empire, or a gue'vesa psyker opens a warp portal and unleashes a daemonic horde on their Empire. The Imperium doesn't really consider the Tau a major threat. If they did, the result would be the largest and bloodiest Crusade since the Sabbat Worlds.
Tadashi, the Tau would chrush the orks and the Tau have already defeated several deamonic hordes. The Imperium on the other hand loses to savage orks that use sticks.
No, the Tau have never faced a full Chaos incursion like a Black Crusade, or the First War for Armageddon. And the Second and Third Wars for Armageddon were the biggest Waaaaagggh!!!!!!!!!! since the Ulanor Crusade during the Great Crusade. The Tau can't handle either.
They haven't faced a full onslaught but there's no reason they should considering there's no real payoff for chaos to do so. Tau are extremely difficult to impossible to possess and they barely register in the warp so they're krill compared to the buffet that is human emotion and corruptibility.
There's a Tau Sept located not far from some chaos incursion point (I can't recall the name) and the Tau have a major fleet parked there.
Tadashi wrote:No, the Tau have never faced a full Chaos incursion like a Black Crusade, or the First War for Armageddon. And the Second and Third Wars for Armageddon were the biggest Waaaaagggh!!!!!!!!!! since the Ulanor Crusade during the Great Crusade. The Tau can't handle either.
Nor have a hundred other alien empires. Ork Whaaghs, Black Crusades ( which, for rather obvious reasons tend to target imperial worlds ), major hivefleets and the like are extremely rare things that happen perhaps once in a thousand years. What we have seen is that the Tau ( as well as various other alien empires for the Tau are merely one empire amongst several ) managed to thrive and continously expand despite the rather hostile nature of the 40k galaxy. This expansion might one day come to a stop, sure, but the same can be said for all other factions. If the Despoiler manages to crush trough the Cadian Gate then... If the Necrons attack the Eldar en mass then... If the Dark Eldar descend into another civil war then... If the Despoiler overstretches his forces then...
Regarding Armageddon, it seems to pale in comparision to what hit ( and largely comquered ) the Scarus sector during the 13. Black Crusade.
The tau absolutely cannot handle a full-on war. However, their technology and numbers are advancing far faster than any other race, so basically if they stay just under the radar, the tau could position themselves to do quite well in the next few thousand years.
Rented Tritium wrote:The tau absolutely cannot handle a full-on war. However, their technology and numbers are advancing far faster than any other race, so basically if they stay just under the radar, the tau could position themselves to do quite well in the next few thousand years.
With their Empire's current size and advanced technology they can and actualy do handle a full scale war. What they cannot handle are galactical threats like full scale hivefleets, unusualy large whaaghs ( Scarus and perhaps Armageddon ) and fully fledged Black Crusades. In fact i would argue that the Imperium of Man is the only faction which can reliably deal with such threats ( the Eldar and Orks are fractured, the Dark Eldar don't care, the various alien empires, like the Tau, the Rakhgol and whatever else stalks the galaxy, lack the numbers ).
Rented Tritium wrote:The tau absolutely cannot handle a full-on war. However, their technology and numbers are advancing far faster than any other race, so basically if they stay just under the radar, the tau could position themselves to do quite well in the next few thousand years.
With their Empire's current size and advanced technology they can and actualy do handle a full scale war. What they cannot handle are galactical threats like full scale hivefleets, unusualy large whaaghs ( Scarus and perhaps Armageddon ) and fully fledged Black Crusades. In fact i would argue that the Imperium of Man is the only faction which can reliably deal with such threats ( the Eldar and Orks are fractured, the Dark Eldar don't care, the various alien empires, like the Tau, the Rakhgol and whatever else stalks the galaxy, lack the numbers ).
Those are the things I am referring to when I say "full-on" war.
CpatTom wrote:The Tau empire have also never created Super Chaos Space soldiers (I wonder why the Imperium keeps getting attacked by those: I blame Daddy )
no they havent, but all those "allies" will turn on them in one way or another. At least it would be an awesome story.
Tadashi wrote:No, the Tau have never faced a full Chaos incursion like a Black Crusade, or the First War for Armageddon. And the Second and Third Wars for Armageddon were the biggest Waaaaagggh!!!!!!!!!! since the Ulanor Crusade during the Great Crusade. The Tau can't handle either.
Tadashi wrote:No, the Tau have never faced a full Chaos incursion like a Black Crusade, or the First War for Armageddon. And the Second and Third Wars for Armageddon were the biggest Waaaaagggh!!!!!!!!!! since the Ulanor Crusade during the Great Crusade. The Tau can't handle either.
Nope, you are wrong. The Tau are better.
On what scale?
Individual battles? Sure. In fluff, the tau tactics and constantly upgrading equipment are phenomenal. In larger scale wars? I'm not sure they could handle those things. They don't have the numbers.
Their technology acts as a force multiplier, but even with that they STILL can't stand up to the full force of a lot of the other races. Give them 100 more years of technological development while everyone else stays in a dark age and things might be different.
Rented Tritium wrote:The tau absolutely cannot handle a full-on war. However, their technology and numbers are advancing far faster than any other race, so basically if they stay just under the radar, the tau could position themselves to do quite well in the next few thousand years.
With their Empire's current size and advanced technology they can and actualy do handle a full scale war. What they cannot handle are galactical threats like full scale hivefleets, unusualy large whaaghs ( Scarus and perhaps Armageddon ) and fully fledged Black Crusades. In fact i would argue that the Imperium of Man is the only faction which can reliably deal with such threats ( the Eldar and Orks are fractured, the Dark Eldar don't care, the various alien empires, like the Tau, the Rakhgol and whatever else stalks the galaxy, lack the numbers ).
Unusual? Waaghs are probably the epitome of variety, and any real waaagh can and will endanger any system they hit, be Tau, Eldar, human or any other race out there.
The change we had this year, was the rise of the Necrons, so soon another faction will handle incoming Hive fleets, ork waaghs, etc..
Space Crusader wrote:
Nope, you are wrong. The Tau are better.
.......N O .
Fido198674 wrote:
CpatTom wrote:The Tau empire have also never created Super Chaos Space soldiers (I wonder why the Imperium keeps getting attacked by those: I blame Daddy )
no they havent, but all those "allies" will turn on them in one way or another. At least it would be an awesome story.
Time will tell. Tau really seem to fear civil wars so a rebellion could be interesting.
Rented Tritium wrote:
On what scale?
Individual battles? Sure. In fluff, the tau tactics and constantly upgrading equipment are phenomenal. In larger scale wars? I'm not sure they could handle those things. They don't have the numbers.
Their technology acts as a force multiplier, but even with that they STILL can't stand up to the full force of a lot of the other races. Give them 100 more years of technological development while everyone else stays in a dark age and things might be different.
100 years is nothing until one cheats with time.
And thats not happening again.
Tau lost the cover they had from being small and unknown. Most threats know about their existence now.
The 3 contenders for the galactic east,tyranids, orks and necrons plus the IoM and its dark cousins of chaos aren't going to hold back for the new kid on the block. The chance of the Tau is to stop pissing on their neighbours lawn and start to cooperate without anyone adopting their "greater good". If they don't alter their course, it won't be just a "cultural exchange" like they had with DE.
Imo if the Imperium mobilized the resources necessary to take out the Tau Empire it wouldn't be able to maintain itself between all of its other wars. Imperium is so overstretched that it can't destroy the Tau even if it wanted without risking its very existence. People like to say that blah blah Damocles Crusade would have won but the Tau Empire is 100 worlds and the Tau themselves can create a quagmire with relatively few men. It would take a very significant mobilization of Imperial resources to destroy them completely, probably on the level of 3rd Armageddon. And again, if the Imperium did that them Armageddon will fall, the Tyranids rampages throughout Segmentum's Ultima/Tempestus won't be stopped, Cadia would likely fall, the Sautekh Dynasty would overrun the Eastern Fringe, and many other smaller warzones would risk total defeat. A situation the Imperium simply can't allow.
1hadhq wrote:
100 years is nothing until one cheats with time.
And thats not happening again.
Tau lost the cover they had from being small and unknown. Most threats know about their existence now.
The 3 contenders for the galactic east,tyranids, orks and necrons plus the IoM and its dark cousins of chaos aren't going to hold back for the new kid on the block. The chance of the Tau is to stop pissing on their neighbours lawn and start to cooperate without anyone adopting their "greater good". If they don't alter their course, it won't be just a "cultural exchange" like they had with DE.
They still have the cover of not being the largest threat. Tau technology is chugging alone at an alarming pace compared to the rest who are not chugging at all. 100 years is enough for the tau to basically double their tech level. Who KNOWS what that looks like? Staying under the radar for 100 years is not really a tall order in the 40k universe. Everyone still has much higher priorities than stopping the tau.
Before we get to exited with genoside fantasies I want to say (to no one in particular) that the Tau have about a hundred worlds, a population of tens of billions and a military of several billions. That might not be much compared to the fighting forces of the galaxy, but still whomever wishes to destroy them they will need bilions themselves. And that is a whole lot.
BrainDeleted wrote:I thought this thread was about Tau expansion, not Tau survival?
And my argument is that since the tau have lower numbers, they need to play their cards just right and expand carefully and quietly. This REQUIRES the ability to not be a primary target of the other races, survive and increase their tech level and expand with superior strategy and efficiency.
Tau survival plays strongly into that.
Tau expansion can't be fast, it's got to be slow and calculated.
Now that the strongest Necron Dynasty has been confirmed to be on the Eastern Fringe, as are the bulk of Tyranid Hive Fleets and Ultramar, further Tau expansion is gonna be an issue. Though even the Eastern Fringe is a huge place.
It makes one wonder what the next Tau Codex will include in it to indicate why the Tau haven't been swallowed up by one of the above, now that the Warp Storms are gone.
Jefffar wrote:It makes one wonder what the next Tau Codex will include in it to indicate why the Tau haven't been swallowed up by one of the above, now that the Warp Storms are gone.
We've already been over it. Wiping out the tau still represents a vast loss of resources. Everyone involved just keeps putting it off till later and saying they aren't a threat.
Harriticus wrote:Imo if the Imperium mobilized the resources necessary to take out the Tau Empire it wouldn't be able to maintain itself between all of its other wars. Imperium is so overstretched that it can't destroy the Tau even if it wanted without risking its very existence. People like to say that blah blah Damocles Crusade would have won but the Tau Empire is 100 worlds and the Tau themselves can create a quagmire with relatively few men. It would take a very significant mobilization of Imperial resources to destroy them completely, probably on the level of 3rd Armageddon. And again, if the Imperium did that them Armageddon will fall, the Tyranids rampages throughout Segmentum's Ultima/Tempestus won't be stopped, Cadia would likely fall, the Sautekh Dynasty would overrun the Eastern Fringe, and many other smaller warzones would risk total defeat. A situation the Imperium simply can't allow.
There is no such thing as overstretching.
See what Mr cruddace had done. First we had the IG....now we got billions of regiments of IG. The IG is free to move , not the common garrison which is the PDF. So with 1.000.000 worlds in mind, a billion of regiments is 1000 regiments per world + x.
Notice the billion S Mr cruddace put there in the old fashioned "i don't know, what is this scale people talk of?" manner..
Thus based on 5th background presented in codex imperial Guard and debated on dakka, the Imperium could provide lots of Regiments,who are about 1.ooo - 100.000 wo/men under weapons because GW cannot bother with a detailed answer as they did in previous editions, and therefore an impressive force of thousands of regiments could be unleashed against any unexpecting foe.
GW also deemed it a good idea to give the necrons million of worlds and surely "some" necrons to defend these.
GW also just raised the number of marines in a pre-heresy Legion from around 10k to 100k and if one pays attention they pretty much
moved on from conflicts with millions of combatants ( Armageddon in 3rd ed ) to far greater headcounts of involved forces.
GW added other forces if campaigns did run as planned ( Eldar for example ) and necrons are most likely the candidate for this job in the future.
So a "correct" size of a given force in 40k exists only inside a publication, not across the background.
Rented Tritium wrote:
They still have the cover of not being the largest threat. Tau technology is chugging alone at an alarming pace compared to the rest who are not chugging at all. 100 years is enough for the tau to basically double their tech level. Who KNOWS what that looks like? Staying under the radar for 100 years is not really a tall order in the 40k universe. Everyone still has much higher priorities than stopping the tau.
Priorities are all nice, until "eternal war" hints on multiple conflicts going on at once and multiple "threats" don't have to gather at a single theatre of war but could start a lot of 1 vs 1 conflicts so anyone is part of it without actively seeking out a role in this.
MrTau wrote:Before we get to exited with genoside fantasies I want to say (to no one in particular) that the Tau have about a hundred worlds, a population of tens of billions and a military of several billions. That might not be much compared to the fighting forces of the galaxy, but still whomever wishes to destroy them they will need bilions themselves. And that is a whole lot.
Source for these imagined populations and military size?
IIRCGW never told anyone after codex Tau anything reliable about the population.
Also zero data of their military when it comes to the overall size.
Wishes to destroy?
The orks don't think their fun, chaos mostly ignores them, necrons just kill the tresspassers, IoM only retaliates and also kills tresspassers,
Eldar are busy picking flowers or grab a few Tau to have fun with but leave the rest alone,that reduces it to nids who are just hungry and can't resist an dense cluster of inhabitable worlds, thus biomass found in one spot without much travel.
I don't see these wishes to destroy anywhere...
Rented Tritium wrote:
And my argument is that since the tau have lower numbers, they need to play their cards just right and expand carefully and quietly. This REQUIRES the ability to not be a primary target of the other races, survive and increase their tech level and expand with superior strategy and efficiency.
Tau survival plays strongly into that.
Tau expansion can't be fast, it's got to be slow and calculated.
Right.
Jefffar wrote:It makes one wonder what the next Tau Codex will include in it to indicate why the Tau haven't been swallowed up by one of the above, now that the Warp Storms are gone.
Still take the spot of the role-model of the upcoming new races, add a few new "add-ons" and show them the darkness of this Galaxy.
Wild guess: if chaos is a major player ( again ) Tau may just be unlucky enough to sit on some artefacts and thus learn the danger of the warp cannot be ignored. This could alter their view a bit, as the claims of other races of what lies beyond can't be waved off as easily as they were.
Space Crusader wrote:Sorry you are all wrong. The Tau own the little Imperium.
Space Crusader.
The Tau own a place in the arc of my chainsword swinging down, thats all they own...
Seriously, stop that nonsense.
Tau have a place, just not to rule the Galaxy.
The Tauros campaign book from Fw says a hundred worlds if I recall correctly. Does 0.3 (= 1/23 of Earths curent population) billion Taus per planet sound reasonable? That is what I counted with.
Im sorry but you are all wrong. I am ignoring your facts and countering it with my dumb eastern european imperia... Tau fantasies. The Tau if mobilised would overrun the entire Imperium.
My beard is 10 metres long and very fat/oily.
Space Crusader wrote:Im sorry but you are all wrong. I am ignoring your facts and countering it with my dumb eastern european imperia... Tau fantasies. The Tau if mobilised would overrun the entire Imperium.
My beard is 10 metres long and very fat/oily.
Space Crusader
Ps. Your personal choice of army sucks.
Please remain mature. I get it, but it's really not the best way to handle the situation. Remain polite and cordial, as the Greater Good dictates.
MrTau wrote:The Tauros campaign book from Fw says a hundred worlds if I recall correctly. Does 0.3 (= 1/23 of Earths curent population) billion Taus per planet sound reasonable? That is what I counted with.
Earth is populated with humans not Tau.
Humans and Tau may like some similar environments but thats all they have in common when it comes to planets and population.
Tau seem to prefer it dry... and less crowded.
So earth = a planet in 40k isn't a good choice and earth filled with humans = planet x filled with Tau is worse.
To mix real life and 40k just doesn't work. Too much space magic.
Space Crusader wrote:Im sorry but you are all wrong. I am ignoring your facts and countering it with my dumb eastern european imperia... Tau fantasies. The Tau if mobilised would overrun the entire Imperium.
My beard is 10 metres long and very fat/oily.
Space Crusader
Ps. Your personal choice of army sucks.
Wich of the armies I have sucks?
Also when was Sweden counted as eastern europe? Run a false flag? Pirate?
Tau may overrun a imperium, just not the imperium of man as thats who they run away from and trample some other unlucky small empire in their stampede, like the cow-people they are.
ironhand45 wrote:I doubt GW will add the Demiurg because they really dont have much to them just as being trade partners with the Tau. The Imperium rarely sees them too. The Tau could always to the orky way and take junk Imperial ship drives and adapt them to Tau ways. Or take it, study it, make their own version, and prosper.
They had ships and fluff in Battle Fleet Galactic.
Yea ships. Thats it. They don't get involved with tau military that much. Just trading. They might join a space battle or two, but no planetside attacks.
Speaking as an avid lover of the tau and all they are and do:
there is no way in hell they will ever be important to the 40k universe. They are the least spread out army in the entire game, GW hates them, there is no chance of them ever getting near terra. That said, do they have the tech? yes. They easily have enough tech to wipe humanity of the face of the universe. Do they have the bodies? no. They do not. They are among the smallest army in the game, second only to DE and Eldar in terms of race size. They may be tightly packed into their little sector, but the tau still don't even have the mass of an imperial sector, let alone the girth of an ork Waagh!, or the unrelenting force of the eye of terror.
dbsamurai wrote:Speaking as an avid lover of the tau and all they are and do:
there is no way in hell they will ever be important to the 40k universe. They are the least spread out army in the entire game, GW hates them, there is no chance of them ever getting near terra. That said, do they have the tech? yes. They easily have enough tech to wipe humanity of the face of the universe. Do they have the bodies? no. They do not. They are among the smallest army in the game, second only to DE and Eldar in terms of race size. They may be tightly packed into their little sector, but the tau still don't even have the mass of an imperial sector, let alone the girth of an ork Waagh!, or the unrelenting force of the eye of terror.
See? Even parts of your "greater good" know better, we win.
Tau will eventually develop a form of warp travel. It is inevitable. An entire Caste System is dedicated to its Navy and Naval Research (the Air Caste), so I wouldn't be surprised if some form of Segmentum-wide travel in the next Codex. And again there could be alien factions that have the potential to create galaxy-wide travel.
And people don't seem to understand that 'Armageddon-sized this' and 'Massive Warp-Incursion that' hitting the Tau Empire is unlikely due to its small size. And besides, humanity is far more tempting to Daemons and Orks (because Space Marines are dead 'ard).
KplKeegan wrote:Tau will eventually develop a form of warp travel. It is inevitable. An entire Caste System is dedicated to its Navy and Naval Research (the Air Caste), so I wouldn't be surprised if some form of Segmentum-wide travel in the next Codex. And again there could be alien factions that have the potential to create galaxy-wide travel.
And people don't seem to understand that 'Armageddon-sized this' and 'Massive Warp-Incursion that' hitting the Tau Empire is unlikely due to its small size. And besides, humanity is far more tempting to Daemons and Orks (because Space Marines are dead 'ard).
Some psycho mek boy might become obessed with Tau tech after the lootas get ahold of it
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Harriticus wrote:No faction in 40k will ever reach Terra. Even the Necrons were downgraded from a galactic to local threat. All that's left is the Tyranids.
Wouldn't the day that anything reaches Terra be pretty much the start of the end of the story?
The Tau aren't vastly technologically superior to the Imperium. In fact, I'd say they're inferior for reasons stated earlier in this threat which were largely ignored in favor of various Tau/Imperial bashing...The advantage they have is their technology is not stagnant, it is progressing.
BrainDeleted wrote:The Tau aren't vastly technologically superior to the Imperium. In fact, I'd say they're inferior for reasons stated earlier in this threat which were largely ignored in favor of various Tau/Imperial bashing...The advantage they have is their technology is not stagnant, it is progressing.
But their tech is also better, it's mostly a user error. Their flyers are stronger, but the pilots lack the same skill as imperial pilots. Pulse Rifles are definitely better than bolters, but the tau themselves have shoddy eyesight. Their tech isn't just progressing, it IS better. It's more reliable and more powerful, and if it isn't both it's one of them. Their main weakness is that they will NEVER develop warp travel. EVER. At current all they can do is push into the warp and bounce out, like hitting a trampoline. They will NEVER develop warp travel because the entire race registers as little more than a blip in the warp in terms of psychic potential. All the methods of true FTL travel require some psychic capabilities, and since they closest they've come to psychic abilities is the nacissar, who have little interest in war and stay the hell away from imperial space, they'll never be able to use FTL, and they certainly will never find a way into the webway, since only psychics and the necrons have done so, and necron tech is millennia ahead of Tau tech. Considering the necrons have been dormant since before mankind voted for kennedy, and their weapons are still more advanced than even the weapons of the 40k universe, there is no way the tau will ever catch up, and so they will never access the webway. thus the two methods of travel for the tau through the warp are gone, and they're screwed in that regard. It would take billions of generations for a force to reach terra, and while it will have grown to a massive size by then, there's no telling what might have happened to the imperium, or the tau, by the time such a force would reach terra. To give you an idea:
Tau build a battlegroup, the largest of it's kind totalling 10000 ships. They send it off towards terra at the standard FTL speeds of Tau ships.
That battlegroup arrives at terra. It's original mission is but a legend told to children aboard it's floatilla, now having grown to almost a million ships due to generations of breeding and growth. the history of the tau is also a myth, something akin to battlestar galactica, with few people ever believeing it could be true, that there could be a race of them on a single planet that would only stick to a single sector, since everyone on the battle group is used to constant nomadic travel, pillageing and trading for what they need as their armies grow. They reach terra to find that mankind has destroyed the planet. The emperor has moved on, the sollar system is on the verge of collapse as the sun itself is finally ready to go supernova.
That's how slow Tau FTL is. That's why they'll never reach it lol
BrainDeleted wrote:The Tau aren't vastly technologically superior to the Imperium. In fact, I'd say they're inferior for reasons stated earlier in this threat which were largely ignored in favor of various Tau/Imperial bashing...The advantage they have is their technology is not stagnant, it is progressing.
That is debatable. With the Tau's development of Drones and from what we can understand about Tau Colonies, I'd say the only advantage the Imperium has is its Gellar Fields and Warp Drives and to an extent, its political/propoganda machine.
And again, its the social and political agenda that dictate military research. If the Tau were ever as Genocida as the Imperium, they would have a far better delivery system for an Exterminatus than the Imperium would.
If you point out 'Super-Human Genetics', they don't really need it. They have the Kroot, who upgrade their genetics naturally.
It's a bold claim to say the Tau have superior technology just because Pulse Rifles beat out the humble Bolter.
The Tau don't have better ships...The Imperium has a pretty vast advantage in this regard. Imperial battleships dwarf anything the Tau have in both size and firepower. Yes, rail guns aren't considered anything special in ship to ship combat. The mightiest Tau vessel is the rough equal of a grand cruiser...Though my money is on the cruiser in a one on one, depending on the class. The Tau do have really nice drone guided missiles though. But don't even get me started on Ramilies Class Star Forts...The Tau have nothing at all like them. It's exactly what the name implies: Space Castle. Huuuge and massive fire power.
Tau have no teleportation technology.
EDIT: To the above, what makes you think the Tau would have better planet killers than the Imperium? They don't have better big guns (By this I mean face smashingly, mind implodingly HUGE guns) than the Imperium does on the Space level. They don't even have the platforms for guns equal to the guns the Imperium has got...But to the meat of what you're saying...Yeah, the Imperium is definitely genocide happy. It would be some serious litotes to say that the higher ups are jaded...Ha. However, the Tau haven't been around long enough to understand the necessity of some exterminatus action. It's hard to swallow, I know, but it is actually completely necessary in 40k sometimes. Not just because it would be a waste of resources otherwise...But because everything on the planet is already dead anyway (whether they realize it yet or not) and leaving it to rot would endanger billions more living people.
Ect, ect.
Since we're stuck in 41k the Imperial has a tech advantage over the Tau in the most critical areas. The thing is, the Imperium only gets slightly worse or, at best, stays the same with the passage of time.
The Tau; meanwhile, are always improving their technology. They've reached the point where there are some real barriers between them and further advancement but even if they've slowed down some they actually move forward........If they can survive, they have a chance to gain a legitimate technological advantage! They represent hope.
EDIT...Again: To Drones - Humanity has been there and done that Didn't work out so good. Who knows if the same will befall the Tau eventually...I think it probably will.
The Tau have certain obvious advantages over the Imperium technology wise (Ether drive has certain advantages despite being slower) and the Imperium has advantages technology wise in other areas. It's not a "generally either/or" thing.
The tau, however, have a more reliable logistical chain. ether drive doesn't seem to suffer the problems warp drive does, so despite being slower it is alot more reliable. And given the smaller size of the Tau Empire and the fact it is close together, they can still maintain a rather short logisitcal chainto keep their troops supplied and maintained. Whereas the IG has inconsistent logistics (especially at long range) and is lucky that it can equip most guardsmen with a lasgun and flak armor most of the time. Beyond that, anything else is sheer luck.
I'd say size is really the only reason the Tau have got a logistical advantage. Smaller armies are easier to equip especially when condensed in a smaller area. Their space travel is really inferior to the Imperium's in almost every way. They have smaller ships, slower ships, less heavily armed ships, and worse knowledge of the Galaxy. Imperial ships don't really get lost in the warp that much when you think about how much shipping there is going on in the Imperium total. It's kind of like ships/planes nowadays crashing/sinking. The major culprit is piracy.
*Please don't paint me a Tau hater. I actually like them, I'm just trying to be factual here.*
They aren't. They're all about size over strategy. But if space battles have taught us anything it's that all those guns and size are great until a small squad of single man craft attack your 2 meter wide exhaust port. Yes I'm mixing canon here but even modern naval battles show us: bigger ships are slower, slower to turn, harder to hit small targets, and vastly more easy to hit than their smaller cousins. Smaller is better in a space battle because you're a lot harder to hit and easier to hide with asteroids and such.
The Tau have better technology on the tactical and immediate level. Standard armaments, battlesuits, munitions accuracy, drones, electronic warfare, battlefield support, etc.. They've also certainly mastered plasma/anti-grav tech better and have a true understanding for their technology. Imperium has some more advanced systems like teleportation or Void Shields thanks to the Golden Age of Technology/Emperor. But if we're talking about the battlefield, Tau have a technological advantage.
But these areas of better tech is tens of thousands of years old and largely the same as it was then and the tech itself is so closely guarded by the AdMec and so shrouded in myth that it's gradually becoming a lost art. In the next few centuries the Tau will likely develop teleportation equivalents, true FTL travel, better shieldings/warships, etc..
Not really...Battle suits = power armor or TDA. The Tau are less accurate than marines, equal to guardsmen. Ordinance wise, the Tau tend to prefer the 'smart' bomb strategy when the Imperium will just bury its foes under sheer weight of fire. Neither is really superior, it's different styles there.. Drones aren't a necessity to the Imperium so I don't think they're really comparable. The Tau use drones to make up for their lack of raw manpower. Obviously the Imperium just uses people to bridge this gap though I suppose drones are comparable to servitors and servo-skulls really. Electronic warfare? I don't know what you mean. Battle field support? Do you mean air support or orbital support? Because the Imperium is arguably quite a bit better here.
Tactically, the Tau have no equivalents to Titans. I suppose Mantas, Barracudas, and Tiger Sharks could fill the gap but at the same time...Not really. The Imperium possesses much better super heavies whether tank or titan.
I think the game kind of shows that the Tau and the Imperium are, when it comes to battlefield tech, about on par. Yes. The Imperium uses crazy things like horses and other backwards stuff but then they also have some of the most powerful ground based war machines in the Galaxy alongside Necrons (Probably the most powerful tech-wise) and Eldar (Second to Necrons only). As well as some of the most advanced and able troops in the Galaxy when it comes to Space Marines. Yeah, the elite of the elite technologically and, well, in almost every way.
Speculation is kind of pointless. In the major area of space travel the Tau have hit a pretty huge technological roadblock. They have no psykers and no way to navigate the warp so they need to: A) Break into the webway somehow. Rising trend here. Though it's very, very improbable that they could do this or reverse engineer any Eldar technology as Eldar tech is very based in psykic crap. B) Find a means besides the webway or the warp. Neigh impossible. Their technology really isn't that good.
Spoiler:
Their space travel technology is only somewhat comparable to the IoM's because they found an 'alien' ship on one of their home planet's moons which had a warp drive. This is more than likely a Imperial ship considering known Imperial activity around the planet and well...How many races have warp drive and were there? So, really, their tech is largely based off of Imperial tech in many regards when it comes to space travel, obviously adapted to their needs.
C) Find a -reliable- race to partner with that can navigate the warp and also develop Gellar field equivalents and fully capable warp drives that can actually fully break into the warp.
C is most likely though still a long ways away for the Tau. They've kind of plateaued for a little while, technologically, after their enormous boom.
Electronic warfare means things like disruption pods decoy launchers. They have a device that scans for enemy communications, decrypts them, changes them then rebroadcasts them in real time so that enemies are moved around by false orders.
They might stand a chance, provided they don't catch the High Lord's or the Orks' attention, or Biel-Tan's anger by colonizing maiden worlds. A full-on Imperial Crusade (think Sabbat Worlds) or the Swordwind would tear the Tau to pieces.
Tau technology is superior in many ways, but as so many others have said, they are still inferior. Without psykers, they can't use warp technology to it's full potential, and I doubt the Necrons would share any technology with them. Navy-wise, they outrange the fleets of most other races, but they can't exactly outgun the Orks or the Imperials, while the Eldar and the Necrons would fly circles around them. And it doesn't matter in the long run if their technology is superior. The Germans thought the same in WWII, but the Soviets simply threw HUGE numbers at them until they broke, something the Imperium and the Orks can do and won't hesitate to do. It would cost dearly though, something Cain said in For the Emperor, stating that a full-on Imperial Crusade against the Tau would see the Imperium victorious, but it would also be the biggest bloodbath since the Sabbat Worlds Crusade.
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Space Crusader wrote:I find battlesuits superior to space marines. Can space marines use 4 guns at the same time?
No, but a full squad outguns and outranges Battlesuits. Not to mention the Tau would still get owned in close combat, especially by Assault Marines/Assault Terminators.
KplKeegan wrote:
And people don't seem to understand that 'Armageddon-sized this' and 'Massive Warp-Incursion that' hitting the Tau Empire is unlikely due to its small size. And besides, humanity is far more tempting to Daemons and Orks (because Space Marines are dead 'ard).
On the contrary, people seem to miss the point of waaghs and chaos incursions, which is the fact they happen wherever GW pleases to enact them. Small size? No problem there surely is a chaos follower with good BS... and orks just show up where the fight is.
Both are 'wildcards' , threaths GW can place freely without bothering to much. Size of the local 'empire' in question doesn't matter.
GW adds a artefact to a system and chaos swarms in to claim that. Orks don't plan their course and in a Galaxy filled with greenskin who is to say there isn't a waagh already close to this system? Same with necrons, establish a 'new' past of a system and mark it as tomb world,
viola crons in place to partake in the story. The level of strategy you seem to apply to the setting of 40k isn't there.
Threats show up, sometimes wellplaced sometimes facepalmworthy. Maybe they really roll a d6 for everything.....
Harriticus wrote: In the next few centuries the Tau will likely develop teleportation equivalents, true FTL travel, better shieldings/warships, etc..
Teleportation is restricted for a reason and the Tau are one of the most unlikely candidates for teleportation tech..
True FTL? did something happen to the necrons FTL recently?
Shielding? Stops death & xplosions, who wants that ? FX to the max FTW!
Space Crusader wrote:I find battlesuits superior to space marines. Can space marines use 4 guns at the same time?
Yes.
Tadashi wrote:
..... it would also be the biggest bloodbath since the Sabbat Worlds Crusade.
While I agree with most of what you just posted, the Imperium can ill-afford a bloodbath with the effects of the 13th Black Crusade and Hive Fleet Leviathan still kicking around.
CpatTom wrote:Battlesuits can only use three guns, and only two at the same time.
Twinlinked guns are technicaly two guns. So they can actualy fire three guns ( twinlinked weapon + extra weapon ) at the same time.
Only as a Team Leader. Not enough hardpoints to get the Multi-tracker on a twinlinked and an alternate weapon suit. I assumed we were talking regular run of the mill Marines and Suits. Once you start upgrading guys I'm sure there is a techmarine with five guns or something ridiculous like that.
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Tadashi wrote:I thought with twin-linked you just get to re-roll once a failed roll to hit?
You do, but it is to represent the second weapon firing at the same target. (Twin linked broadsides actually fire 2 railrifle rounds at targets, just only one can hit)
Thanks. A Techmarine with a servo-harness has a boltgun/bolt pistol, twin-linked plasma pistol and flamer. You can fire both servo weapons in a turn, or the boltgun/bolt pistol and one servo weapon.
BrainDeleted wrote:To the above, what makes you think the Tau would have better planet killers than the Imperium? They don't have better big guns (By this I mean face smashingly, mind implodingly HUGE guns) than the Imperium does on the Space level.
Through their extreme knowledge of plasma and magnetic technologies. If the ethos of Tau ever changed, I bet they could develop a Rail Gun that could slice a planet in half if the really wanted to.
BrainDeleted wrote:Tactically, the Tau have no equivalents to Titans. I suppose Mantas, Barracudas, and Tiger Sharks could fill the gap but at the same time...Not really. The Imperium possesses much better super heavies whether tank or titan.
As they've shown in the Taros Campaign, the Tau don't need equivalents. Perhaps another two-hundred years down the road, Titans and Baneblades and Land Raiders will be downed by Crisis Suits.
The Imperium thinks bigger equals better, while the Tau's armaments (to the Mechanicums detestment) keep getting smaller and more streamlined.
Which again is dictated by the ethos of both races. Tau want to preserve as much infastructure and resources as possible while the Imperium could care less what happens.
Tadashi wrote:The Germans thought the same in WWII, but the Soviets simply threw HUGE numbers at them until they broke, something the Imperium and the Orks can do and won't hesitate to do.
This is incorrect. There were other factors that affected Germany's defeat in the East, moreso than the shambling horde that was Russia's Army.
Tadashi wrote:Without psykers, they can't use warp technology to it's full potential
I honestly don't see that their inferior because they're a psyker-dead race. The Imperium has the latest and greatest Tom-Tom GPS (with all its flaws) built into their dash while the Tau stick the current Atlas on their iPads.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't it take a while for the Imperium to develop warp-based travel? Do we even know how long it took? How come you Emperor-Botherers don't give the Tau the same grace period to find galaxy-wide travel?
KplKeegan wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't it take a while for the Imperium to develop warp-based travel? Do we even know how long it took? How come you Emperor-Botherers don't give the Tau the same grace period to find galaxy-wide travel?
The Tau could easily expand if they target the right systems. Taking a system held by the chaos or Eldar or DE, they could easily take that system with the right numbers, resources, leadership etc. They could even take systems held by the IoM and Orks just because of their firepowers and tactics. The only race they really need to fear are the Tyranids because they're so massive and dangerous. If i was the Tau, I would keep my distance from the Tyranids and let the IoM handle them.
IoM thinks bigger is better, thats lame; HUGE computers years ago now a small phone that can fit in your palm does the same job way better Tau don't want psykers, that'd be daft, it'd make them a target for all sorts of chaos nonsense
Damocles gulf crusade = stale mate until IoM had to divert forces to deal with tyranid hive fleet; Implies that the IoM would destroy the tau empire if they wanted to but half the IoM would be consumed by Tyranids, Orks, Chaos... the list kinda keeps going
Its more difficult to make the Railgun on a hammerhead small enough to be carried by a pathfinder than it is to make bespoke railgun bigger: e.g. Plasma Pistol from Plasma Gun from Plasma Cannon which got upsized to fit on a titan How long until planet smashing railguns, hmmm.........
Basically, guys, bash tau all you like cuz in fluff tau have developed tech to compete with the IoM's (even with the use of manpower (not sexist)) in 6000 years whereas the technology level the IoM is at has taken approx 50000 years...
Give tau another 46000 years and they'll deal with anything in the WH40K universe without breaking a sweat, eldar, necrons, humans, chaos, tyranids, let the C'tan and Old Ones come back and get owned
The only variable factor: time, and if the tau can survive for long enough to achieve this level of technology
Anyways, tau are not communists or socialists, I hate it when people say that tau are reds seriously get reading fluff, you're just jealous...
Tau society has aspects of communism I'll grant that because they work together for the better of the whole ( a very noble concept) but the ethereals seem to occupy a position akin to monarchial rule almost or maybe republic or democratic with all the councils and voice of the people. Thus with this in mind, How can they be communists?
Anyway, Tau bashers, IoM lovers, Your civilisation has been around for a long time and not conquered the galaxy and if Tau eliminated humans then chaos would get a lot weaker (reason for chaos to target tau if they get too strong for the liking of the ruinous powers)!!! Step aside or get tossed aside; Its time to let the big boys play
What are you guys on about?? Webway doesn't need anything close to any psyker abilites Did you forget about DE, they hate all stuff psyker!
Maybe Eldar tech is psyker based but tau need only get they're little blue mitts on a DE and they have access to the webway
ironhand45 wrote:The Tau could easily expand if they target the right systems. Taking a system held by the chaos or Eldar or DE, they could easily take that system with the right numbers, resources, leadership etc. They could even take systems held by the IoM and Orks just because of their firepowers and tactics. The only race they really need to fear are the Tyranids because they're so massive and dangerous. If i was the Tau, I would keep my distance from the Tyranids and let the IoM handle them.
The Dark Eldar do not permanently hold systems and the Eldar tend to be extremely annoyed when it comes to taking away their toys.
Targeting imperal backwater planets which can be comparatively easily swayed by trade and diplomacy, which has the nice side effect of avoiding unnecessary bloodshed, is far smarter and less likely to result
in pricey long term comitments. After all, with the Eastern Fringe in turmoil the the Imperium will rarely invest large amounts of resources just to reconquer someworthless backwater.
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote: Its more difficult to make the Railgun on a hammerhead small enough to be carried by a pathfinder than it is to make bespoke railgun bigger: e.g. Plasma Pistol from Plasma Gun from Plasma Cannon which got upsized to fit on a titan How long until planet smashing railguns, hmmm.........
Basically, guys, bash tau all you like cuz in fluff tau have developed tech to compete with the IoM's (even with the use of manpower (not sexist)) in 6000 years whereas the technology level the IoM is at has taken approx 50000 years...
Give tau another 46000 years and they'll deal with anything in the WH40K universe without breaking a sweat, eldar, necrons, humans, chaos, tyranids, let the C'tan and Old Ones come back and get owned
The only variable factor: time, and if the tau can survive for long enough to achieve this level of technology
You're right about the time thing...But you seem to assume that just because they progress means that they'll keep progressing to infinity. This is a misconception. There is such a thing as a peak. A limit. Materials available can only do so much. The pace of Tau technological growth has already slowed down.
Another thing: You're assuming everything the Tau do is based off pure genius and imagination...This is also a complete misconception. The only reason the Tau have any form of warp travel is because they found an 'alien' ship on one of their homeworld's moons. More than likely an Imperial ship. They kinda failed at copying the meat of the drive but they managed to come up with what they've got now. The same goes for a lot of Tau tech. They've learned it from the other established races. One of the reasons why they boomed, boomed, boomed.
Just one more thing, please don't say things that are blatantly untrue. M18 was the peak of mankind's technological prowess. Where we didn't have to do a single thing because we had robots infinitely more advanced than any drone. We had technology that just destroyed whatever we wanted. STC pumping out super high tech anythings for little cost in resources. Technology that far eclipsed that of the Tau. Tech relics prove that much and that's only a small fraction of the technological wizardry humanity had. Seriously, everything they built, to put it in perspective, is a good 4-5 times older than the Pyramids are to us, to the IoM so we'll never even really know about most of their technology. Then mankind went through terrible, terribly hardship (Iron man rebellion, psyker gene appearance, warp storm craziness, ect.) and lost much technology until (Seriously, reduced back to barbarianism in many/most cases) around 30k when the good old Emperor decided to bail us out. That's when technological rediscovery began. Only lasted a short while till the Horus Heresy. And now the IoM is still in technological recovery mode. You can't just say it took 50k years to get to the IoM's level of technology...Because mankind lost almost everything in the middle of those years and stayed lost for a good 10,000 years enduring hardships that the Tau imagination can't even dream up.
So really, the Tau advanced twice as fast as Humans but with the help of 'alien' ships lying around for them to reverse engineer. Oh, and they didn't colonize the whole galaxy yet like Humanity managed by the time it peaked.
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:What are you guys on about?? Webway doesn't need anything close to any psyker abilites Did you forget about DE, they hate all stuff psyker!
Maybe Eldar tech is psyker based but tau need only get they're little blue mitts on a DE and they have access to the webway
The DE forbid the use of phykic abilities because they cannot afford to attract Daemons. They don't have spirit stones. Their souls are free to gobble gobble. They already have access to and reasonable knowledge about the webway though. They've already got all the portals and gates they are ever going to need...
Let's look at the Emperor's attempt to break into the webway. He had to use his psykic abilities to forge a path through the warp to existing webway tunnels then try to seal it off using, wait, what, oh he had to deal with Daemons the whole time. Something Tau don't know a single thing about...And he had to use his psykic abilities, his extremely potent one of a kind abilities just to get the project off the ground. Plus, he found an ancient, ancient relic...The Golden Throne...Which started his whole foray. Seems pretty unlikely the Tau will be able to do this same thing ever in a million years without a lot of help.
BrainDeleted wrote: The pace of Tau technological growth has already slowed down.
Another thing: You're assuming everything the Tau do is based off pure genius and imagination...This is also a complete misconception. The only reason the Tau have any form of warp travel is because they found an 'alien' ship on one of their homeworld's moons.
Just one more thing, please don't say things that are blatantly untrue. M18 was the peak of mankind's technological prowess. Where we didn't have to do a single thing because we had robots infinitely more advanced than any drone. We had technology that just destroyed whatever we wanted. STC pumping out super high tech anythings for little cost in resources. Technology that far eclipsed that of the Tau. Tech relics prove that much and that's only a small fraction of the technological wizardry humanity had. Seriously, everything they built, to put it in perspective, is a good 4-5 times older than the Pyramids are to us, to the IoM so we'll never even really know about most of their technology. Then mankind went through terrible, terribly hardship (Iron man rebellion, psyker gene appearance, warp storm craziness, ect.) and lost much technology until (Seriously, reduced back to barbarianism in many/most cases) around 30k when the good old Emperor decided to bail us out. That's when technological rediscovery began.
Oh, and they didn't colonize the whole galaxy yet like Humanity managed by the time it peaked.
The DE forbid the use of phykic abilities because they cannot afford to attract Daemons. They don't have spirit stones. Their souls are free to gobble gobble. They already have access to and reasonable knowledge about the webway though. They've already got all the portals and gates they are ever going to need...
Let's look at the Emperor's attempt to break into the webway. He had to use his psykic abilities to forge a path through the warp to existing webway tunnels then try to seal it off using, wait, what, oh he had to deal with Daemons the whole time. Something Tau don't know a single thing about...And he had to use his psykic abilities, his extremely potent one of a kind abilities just to get the project off the ground. Plus, he found an ancient, ancient relic...The Golden Throne...Which started his whole foray. Seems pretty unlikely the Tau will be able to do this same thing ever in a million years without a lot of help.
Here we go;
Tell me where it says that the tau found this ship I can't find a reference apart from people on dakka (genuinely, politely asking here)
Now, The Emperor tried to force his way into the webway with technology that someother person discovered and had been abandoned before he found it and tried to use it with no instructions As to the tau's lack of dealing with demons I ask you to look up Pg 10 of the codex at "The Perdus Rift Anomaly" - 'an area of space through which the corruption of the immaterium intrudes upon the material universe...acts as a gateway to elsewhere, through which things from nightmares may pass' - just because the tau barely register in the warp doesn't mean they have no experience with demons Where does it say the pace of tau technological development is slowing down, we're talking about a stationary point in the WH40K timeline? (a.k.a. it hasn't slowed down) Humans still peaked at M18 according to scenario, after almost 30000 years then - given that you yourself said that the tau are progressing twice as fast and haven't peaked (the second bit is me ) then give the tau another 4500 years and they'll have topped the Imperium's peak tech level I agree there are limiting factors as there are to everything but ingenuity is not limited, if there is a problem there is a solution It is unlikely given fluff that the tau will experience a similar point of civilizational collapse because of their overwhelming belief in the greater good
By the way check your facts: The Imperium is not by any means nor definition undergoing a technological recovery - GW calls it technological stagnation while the Adeptus mechanicus throttle the life out of the IoM by saying that technological development goes against the tenets of the Imperial Truth and occasionally they rediscover a lost technology and attempt to use it - they don't know what they're doing, cannot reverse engineer it and can't usually use it And let's be honest if the IoM was at its peak at M18 then how come very few worlds had enough knowledge to maintain if not actually progress with technological advancement, hmm... Because by the time they had robots to do everything they'd already began to stagnate and ingenuity was on the retreat and now the High lords of terra are kinda against discovering and implementing new tech, that's why they're innumerable hordes of gaurdsmen are armed with glorified flashlights
Tau Battle Fleet Gothic rules. You can dl them at the Gamesworkshop website. Don't have all their codices on hand but I believe there's mention in those as well.
The Tau race did not come into being 9000 years ago in the 40k timeline. That's where we choose their starting point. It's when they had a similar level of Technology to humanity at year 0. You're inflating things by using this misconception.
The IoM is technologically stagnant. The only thing they are doing is recovering humanity's lost technology. They aren't advancing. Thus they are stagnant. This does not mean that they aren't finding new things. They always are...Land speeder, Land raider, new combat knife STC, ect, ect. It just isn't advancing their technological level because they aren't making new things, rather, they are rediscovering old tech. It is also not quite true to say the AdMech stops technological research. They actually do carry out research it is just very restricted and they put much more effort into recovery. True, technologies are lost at times with the destruction of forge worlds...But the IoM does get a new toy every once in a while. By the way, when the AdMech discovers some old technology, they implement it if it is found to be pure. Please provide a counter example. They always utilize found human technology if it does take an obscene amount of testing and study.
Anyway, we (humanity) went stagnant sort of in the Dark Age of Tech...Because we reached the peak of what technology can achieve for all intensive purposes. It was to the point where humans did not need anything else. We rocked.
For the slowing of Tau tech, they boomed to space faring with their partial warp drive thingamagig then haven't done anything super major since. Counter examples?
To the Webway...The Tau don't have and very, very likely won't find a Golden Throne (Dark Age of Tech.) equivalent so their even more up the creek on breaking into the Webway than the Big E was when he tried. I don't see your point.
EDIT: Sorry, I post then edit a million times. It's my style.
I will simply say this: Human tech during the Dark Age of Technology make the Tau look like children. Humanity made the Iron Men, which are sentient AI, Supernova inducing weapons, Terraforming tech, created the Warp drive, created the Navigator gene, created Land Ships as per the Rogue Trader rpg, Void shields to defend cities as per RTrpg, may have built a planet if the implications are true as per RTrpg, have colony worlds with tech to sterilize planets, cloaking technology, all the other tech in the 40krpgs's etc.
If the Tau were ever taken from 40k and placed in the galaxy during the DAoT and they tried their nonsense on humanity. They would get stomped on so hard, the very first Tau that evolved would be feeling the beatdown.
The cool thing about the Dark Age of Technology is that we'll never really know the full heights of humanity's technology. All we know is that they were so advanced that humanity didn't have anymore needs...And there are a few mystified snips like Iron Men and Land Ships and Void Shields.
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:
Oh, and they didn't colonize the whole galaxy yet like Humanity managed by the time it peaked.
Almost the entire galaxy was colonised otherwise why are all these planet filled with primitive human keep being found?
The Imperium is not by any means nor definition undergoing a technological recovery - GW calls it technological stagnation while the Adeptus mechanicus throttle the life out of the IoM by saying that technological development goes against the tenets of the Imperial Truth and occasionally they rediscover a lost technology and attempt to use it - they don't know what they're doing, cannot reverse engineer it and can't usually use it
The Imperial truth was something that existed during the time of the Great Crusade and was replaced by the Imperial Cult post Horus Heresy. The Mechanicus use their influence to put their ideals of no or at least very little innovation as Imperial policy.
And let's be honest if the IoM was at its peak at M18 then how come very few worlds had enough knowledge to maintain if not actually progress with technological advancement, hmm...
Because by the time they had robots to do everything they'd already began to stagnate and ingenuity was on the retreat and now the High lords of terra are kinda against discovering and implementing new tech, that's why they're innumerable hordes of gaurdsmen are armed with glorified flashlights
Typhon, bored youngster
The Imperium didn't exist during the M18. Infact, the Imperium came into being with the advent of the Great Crusade which happened in the year M31.
BrainDeleted wrote:The cool thing about the Dark Age of Technology is that we'll never really know the full heights of humanity's technology. All we know is that they were so advanced that humanity didn't have anymore needs...And there are a few mystified snips like Iron Men and Land Ships and Void Shields.
Yeah, I truly like the Landships below:
Here is the kind of tech and damage DAoT colonies could do to themselves:
Zayth Gazetteer
Like so many worlds across the galaxy, Zayth is a place of never-ending war and bloody, futile conflict. For centuries uncounted, its human inhabitants have been locked in a bitter struggle against their kin—warrior clans living in behemoth land-ships and fighting for reasons lost in the smoke and blood of battle. There is much to interest Rogue Traders here, however—the land-ships themselves are artifacts of a time now lost to the Imperium; dark-age technology of incalculable value. The world’s blasted landscape is also a scavenger’s dream, littered with the remains of millennia
of warfare. However, no one just lands on Zayth and looks around—to even approach the world requires the support of at least one of the clans and more than one intrepid explorer has underestimated the power of the land-ships and had his vessel blasted from the sky.
The Big War
Even within the vaulted halls of the city-sized land-ships, the clans of Zayth have little memory of how their world came to be the blasted wasteland of death and destruction it is today. Visitors to Zayth from the Imperium, though few and far between, have pieced together something of the history of this tragic world and its descent into endless conflict. From patchy Administratum records compared against the incomplete data of the clans—kept for the most part locked in cogitators deep within the land-ships—it seems that Zayth was once a green and verdant world, settled millennia ago during mankind’s great expansion across the stars. Over time, however, the shifting tides of the warp and the waning strength of humanities’ grasp on the galaxy meant Zayth was cut off and forgotten.
Alone, its inhabitants turned inwards, and what had once been a single unified colony of man became a distrustful world of suspicious city-states and secretive nations. Still in control of powerful dark age technology—city-levelling macrocannons, virulent bio-agents and mighty land-ships the size of hives—the city-states and nations created the thousand-year treaty that restricted conflict to remote regions and far out to sea. It was a treaty that lasted less than a decade. There are no solid records of what began the Big War, but its effects are plain to see for anyone visiting Zayth. Everything was laid to ruin as armies swarmed across the land, bombs dropped from the sky, and the mighty land-ships strode across the earth like merciless gods of war. At first, there must have been some kind of plan for victory, some strategy to defeat the enemy and restore the peace.
However, as the war escalated, all seemed forgotten in years of fire, blood, and death. After a time (impossible to gauge from fractured records), only the land-ships and their crews remained, protected from their now-toxic world by thick hulls and flickering void shields. With nothing left to hope for, the crews fought on, driven by a bitter hatred of the other land-ships and the memory of their homelands burnt to ash. Generations came and went within the land-ships and what was once a military crew became a clan, a tribal city-state with no allegiances beyond its armoured shell. Today, the land-ships crunch and grind their way across the wasteland in paths set out by their Elder-Tacticians, driven on by the hatred of their Gun-Masters, and maintained by the secretive Engine-Orders. Occasionally a land-ship falls, its carcass stripped and looted by the others, and Zayth takes another slow and steady step toward the day it will become a dead world.
Ash and Death
Zayth is a wasteland pocked with craters and divided by vast dry ocean basins, long since boiled away by radiation and nuclear fire. Even the world’s mountains have been shattered and smashed by titanic exchanges of firepower until they are little more than lines of jagged foothills crisscrossing dust choked plains. It is across this remaining macro-continent that the landships sail—churning up great plumes of radioactive ash in their wakes. Occasionally their passage unearths a grim reminder of the past—the broken foundations of a pre-war city, the petrified stumps of an ancient forest, or even the skeletal remains of a destroyed land-ship. For the most part these desiccated remains are only given a cursory glance by the land-ship for anything of use, and then quickly forgotten. The clans have little connection to their past and less interest in exploring it.
Beyond these broken memories of the world that once was, the only other major landmarks on Zayth are the Great Craters. Caused by the first bombs dropped in the Big War, these craters are kilometres across and sometimes hundreds of metres deep. So potent were the bombs that made them that the land-ships still avoid crossing them, for fear of radiation hard enough to slice though their shields and fry their hulls. The Great Craters also act as a guide to those crossing the wastelands, their greenish glow visible for thousands of kilometres in all directions. In fact, they can even be seen from orbit as eerie glowing dots of light powerful enough to pierce the thick toxic atmosphere.
Aside from the Great Craters and the land-ships themselves, the greatest danger to a traveller on Zayth are the toxic storms. After centuries of warfare and the complete destruction of its biosphere, the world of Zayth has become a hellish place to visit. Its skies are constantly covered in boiling crimson storm clouds, lit from within by jagged bolts of purple lightning. Without natural barriers to stop it, the wind howls around the world creating tornados of dust and ash that can strip a man to bone in seconds —if the radiation and airborne toxins haven’t already reduced him to bloody slag. For the most part, these storms wash harmlessly over the land-ships’ heavy shields, but once every so often a titanic one tears across the wasteland and any land-ship in it path must stop and dig into the hard earth to survive—its inhabitants cowering in the ship’s hold, praying to the ancestor spirits of the Engine-Orders to keep their ship upright.
Land-Ships of Zayth
The humans of Zayth live almost exclusively in the land-ships, each one home to a fiercely independent clan with its own set of traditions and rites. Over the centuries, the land-ships themselves have also become unique: as the toxic winds of Zayth and the constant war between the clans damage them they are repaired in a variety of inventive and makeshift ways, mostly from parts scavenged from beneath the ash-covered plains or torn from vanquished rivals. From a distance, a land-ship looks not unlike an Imperial hive, its ringed hull tapering toward a point hundreds of metres above its vast base. Closer in, a multitude of protrusions become visible—gun decks, sensorium banks and dust glider hangers covering its hull like a thousand tiny wounds. At its base, behind a billowing cloud of ash and dust, legs, tracks and suspensor arrays can be glimpsed, holding the mighty structure aloft. There is nothing in the Imperial arsenal that completely compares to a land-ship, and more than one traveller from the Imperium has commented that it is as if a light cruiser had landed and sprouted legs—certainly a land-ship’s firepower is comparable to many battlefleet ships of the line.
Each of these monstrosities is home to a clan, the ancient descendants of its military crew. Within these clans exists a rigid caste system, perhaps brought about by the martial discipline of their ancestry. At the head of this structure are the Elder-Tacticians, mystic officers charged with plotting the course of the clan and the path the land-ship travels. Ancient and wise, the tacticians spend most of their time cataloguing and researching the centuries worth of records from countless engagements and weapon tests to prepare for their clan’s next encounter with a rival land-ship. In more recent times, the arrival of off-worlders has prompted them to re-evaluate how these outside influences might change the course of the Big War.
Beneath the tacticians are the Gun-Masters, those men and women specially trained to operate the weapon systems of the land-ships, be they conversion-beam batteries, macro-cannon turrets, or squadrons of missile-laden dust gliders. These are sacred positions aboard the land-ships, where surviving the next conflict is all that matters in the never-ending battle between the clans. Below the Gun-Masters dwell the teeming masses of the land-ships; men, women, and children who call the lumbering citadels their home. Of course they too have a role to play, for everyone aboard a land-ship contributes to its battle readiness—be it cleaning decks, crafting shells, or carrying fuel. Finally there are the Engine-Orders—secretive cults that keep the vast machinery of the land-ships running, passing on the secrets of their working from one generation to the next. Aboard a land-ship they seal off corridors, rooms, and sometimes whole decks behind tarnished copper doors—a clear message to all aboard that only those of the Engine-Order may pass beyond their threshold. Understandably, Adeptus Mechanicus techpriests and Explorators that have visited Zayth have noted the parallels between the Engine-Orders and the Machine Cult—and there are even rumours of the Mechanicus infiltrating the orders of Zayth to unearth the secrets of the land-ships. Some tech-priests have noted the similarities between the land-ships and similar structures on the moon of Cog and the mobile hive of Ambulon on Scintilla, only further increasing the Machine Cult’s desire to plumb their secrets.
The World that Once Was
The dust plains and ash wastes of Zayth hide a past long forgotten and buried by war. Travellers to Zayth speak of ancient cities buried beneath the ash, some still mostly intact and littered with ancient Imperial technology, forgotten wealth, and records of man’s expansion into this region of space. One such city that even the clans themselves speak of is Zolran—fabled capital of Zayth and first colony of man. Stories tell of the city surviving the first bombs of the Big War—sheltered beneath a powerful shield dome. As the war dragged on, however, and more and more of the world was laid to waste Zolran found itself alone, its inhabitants unable to escape the dome that protected them from the land-ships and the world’s worsening climate. Finally its location was lost, buried beneath the shifting ash and dust of Zayth, the clans still whisper that the city and its inhabitants survive, hidden somewhere in the wastes.
There are also reports of something much older on Zayth, ruins that predate even the coming of man and the start of the Big War. It is said that far out in the dust basins are deep ravines, that once long ago would have been deepsea trenches—before the oceans boiled away—and within these deep cracks in the earth is the remains of an alien city, undisturbed and unvisited for millennia.
The Explorers’ vessel must enter low orbit (well within 10,000 km or one Void Unit of the planet’s surface) to initiate a bombardment (essentially, it will have no Manoeuvre actions until it breaks orbit, and must remain stationary—except for changing orientation—every turn it conducts the bombardment). A Zayth land-ship should count as a cruiser with Armour 16, 3 Void Shields, and 75 Hull Integrity. It also has the equivalent of two Mars Pattern Macrocannon broadsides, which—while designed for surface work—are easily capable of hitting a starship in low orbit. The land-ship has a Detection Rating of –10, and a Crack crew (Skills and Characteristics of 40). It will perform Extended Actions such as Focused Augury and Lock On.
All this^ is from the RT campaign adventure "Lure of the Expanse"
One final thing, Landships are armed with Vehicle-mounted Conversion Beamers which I bolded in the long text. What are Conversion Beamers you ask? Here's the answer, the ones below are from Deathwatch:
Although many of the weapons carried by Space Marines are wonders of technology beyond the dreams of normal men, there are some machines that are so exceptional that only a Techmarine may attend them. One of the most unusual of these is the conversion beamer, a rare weapon that works by converting matter to energy in a beam that becomes stronger the further it extends and the more matter is converted. It is only by the constant ministrations of a Techmarine that such a weapon can be utilised—should anyone else attempt to use the weapon, its war spirit might become greatly angered and turn its ire upon the wielder instead.
Astartes Conversion Beamer
A small number of these rare and deadly archeotech devices circulate through the hands of senior Techmarines. By using the energy stored in atomic bonds, a conversion beamer can annihilate creatures, vehicles, or nearly anything its beam reaches, provided it is given time to build to critical mass. When fired, a conversion beamer expels a stream of neutronbombarded particles, beginning an atomic chain reactionthat converts matter to energy in a blazing beam that hurtles towards the target. As the escalating reaction travels, more and more air molecules are converted into a deadly blast that finally consumes the target in an explosive release of energy. Conversion beamers are more powerful at long ranges as they can absorb more matter into the blast’s strength before it hits.
At distances of up to 15 metres, it does 1d10+9 Damage and has a Penetration of 2. Over that distance and up to Short Range, it does 3d10+9 Damage with a Penetration of 8 and gains the Felling Quality. Against targets further than Short Range it does 6d10+12 Damage with a Penetration of 14 and possesses the Felling and Blast(2) Qualities.
And this was for mere colony worlds. Truly humanity has forgotten more than the Tau will ever know. It makes one feel despair over what great heights humanity has fallen from .
I doubt the Tau could completely defeat every threat. But they are likely to be able to win most individual fights.
They are constantly improving their technology and adapting to deal with new threats.
The Imperium may have better technology in some key areas, but the majority of that technology is either unreplaceable or very difficult to get more of. When it's gone, it's gone.
The Tau are rapidly advancing and will likely be able to deal with the majority of threats soon. By the time something large (E.g a Waaagh, Tyranids, Crusade etc) reaches them they will be able to deal with it alot better than they could currently.
People, people. This is GW we are talking about. Stop taking their fluff so serious. In 6th edition we might have Space marines riding unicorns spreading love.
Space Crusader wrote:People, people. This is GW we are talking about. Stop taking their fluff so serious. In 6th edition we might have Space marines riding unicorns spreading love.
That's crazy. They cant do that. Spreading love is the tau's job.
Mentlegen324 wrote:I doubt the Tau could completely defeat every threat. But they are likely to be able to win most individual fights.
They are constantly improving their technology and adapting to deal with new threats.
The Imperium may have better technology in some key areas, but the majority of that technology is either unreplaceable or very difficult to get more of. When it's gone, it's gone.
The Tau are rapidly advancing and will likely be able to deal with the majority of threats soon. By the time something large (E.g a Waaagh, Tyranids, Crusade etc) reaches them they will be able to deal with it alot better than they could currently.
Sounds like a no-limits fallacy to me.
nomotog wrote:
Space Crusader wrote:People, people. This is GW we are talking about. Stop taking their fluff so serious. In 6th edition we might have Space marines riding unicorns spreading love.
That's crazy. They cant do that. Spreading love is the tau's job.
The Tau's goal is to conquer the galaxy not spread love.
ironhand45 wrote: If i was the Tau, I would keep my distance from the Tyranids and let the IoM handle them.
If you payed attention to GW, the IoM ( inq kryptman ) actually were faster than you and planned the Tau as speed bump of the tyranids.
Sorry they're not as slow as you think..
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:Think of it this way guys,
And here comes the request to alter this thread into a "Tau bashing"... WHY?
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:IoM thinks bigger is better, thats lame; HUGE computers years ago now a small phone that can fit in your palm does the same job way better
You sure? Its the IoM's fault your computer was lame?
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:Tau don't want psykers, that'd be daft, it'd make them a target for all sorts of chaos nonsense
No psykers is like no magic in a fantasy setting and we know how beneficial that is...
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:
Damocles gulf crusade = stale mate until IoM had to divert forces to deal with tyranid hive fleet;
Implies that the IoM would destroy the tau empire if they wanted to but half the IoM would be consumed by Tyranids, Orks, Chaos... the list kinda keeps going
Does it? This plot-armor, where angered neighbours always have something else to care for, it won't last.
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:Its more difficult to make the Railgun on a hammerhead small enough to be carried by a pathfinder than it is to make bespoke railgun bigger:
e.g. Plasma Pistol from Plasma Gun from Plasma Cannon which got upsized to fit on a titan How long until planet smashing railguns, hmmm.........
Hell freezes over first.
Why do you think railguns are downsized and plasma weapons upsized?
The rail rifle is a invention of a software project and was transferred to the tabletop cause the guys at GW liked it.
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:Basically, guys, bash tau all you like cuz in fluff tau have developed tech to compete with the IoM's (even with the use of manpower (not sexist)) in 6000 years whereas the technology level the IoM is at has taken approx 50000 years...
So we shall bash the Tau?
Not really sure where you pull that crap about developement time from....maybe your behind?
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:Give tau another 46000 years and they'll deal with anything in the WH40K universe without breaking a sweat, eldar, necrons, humans, chaos, tyranids, let the C'tan and Old Ones come back and get owned
Oh how come nobody realizes that?
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:The only variable factor: time, and if the tau can survive for long enough to achieve this level of technology
No factor at all.
40k is a setting not a story. Movement factor = 0.
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:Anyways, tau are not communists or socialists, I hate it when people say that tau are reds seriously get reading fluff, you're just jealous...
Agreed anyone elses, except yours, are not communists.
But I have to insist you take your stalinistic blue faced scumbags off of our beloved 40k.
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:Tau society has aspects of communism I'll grant that because they work together for the better of the whole ( a very noble concept) but the ethereals seem to occupy a position akin to monarchial rule almost or maybe republic or democratic with all the councils and voice of the people. Thus with this in mind, How can they be communists?
Its just your Tau.
Exceptions happen...
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:Anyway, Tau bashers, IoM lovers,
>The IoM would have nothing to do with Tau if they kept their blue asses of our lawn.!
Maybe the so called bashing isn't really hate but rather a reaction to your weird fan dreams? Once in a while, the background as provided by GW is to be accepted as is. Its fascinating how close minded the fans of so called 'enlightened factions' of a fictional wargame can be.
Ever considered there is a reason why it turns into Tau vs IoM and rarely in Tau vs X ? A result of the IoM bashing maybe?
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:Your civilisation has been around for a long time and not conquered the galaxy and if Tau eliminated humans then chaos would get a lot weaker (reason for chaos to target tau if they get too strong for the liking of the ruinous powers)!!!
Step aside or get tossed aside; Its time to let the big boys play
WTF?
Chaos is around without humans, it just swaps one favored victim for another.
1 great crusade = 200 years and a million worlds belong to mankind again. Thousands of years and what is the property of the Tau?
If this should be some sort of humor, you epically fail.
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote: Webway doesn't need anything close to any psyker abilites
Thats why necrons had it easy to break in...oh wait.... doesn't look like..
Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:Maybe Eldar tech is psyker based but tau need only get they're little blue mitts on a DE and they have access to the webway
Another "cultural exchange" ?
How often can Tau perform these before they run out of Tau ? DE are pretty fast consumers of playthings..
Mentlegen324 wrote:I doubt the Tau could completely defeat every threat. But they are likely to be able to win most individual fights.
They are constantly improving their technology and adapting to deal with new threats.
The Imperium may have better technology in some key areas, but the majority of that technology is either unreplaceable or very difficult to get more of. When it's gone, it's gone.
The Tau are rapidly advancing and will likely be able to deal with the majority of threats soon. By the time something large (E.g a Waaagh, Tyranids, Crusade etc) reaches them they will be able to deal with it alot better than they could currently.
Sounds like a no-limits fallacy to me.
It is. It also makes a number of assumptions based the early warning systems the Tau have capable to them. gak, Chaos could open up shop in a few minutes if GW focused its writers on that task.
nomotog wrote:
Space Crusader wrote:People, people. This is GW we are talking about. Stop taking their fluff so serious. In 6th edition we might have Space marines riding unicorns spreading love.
That's crazy. They cant do that. Spreading love is the tau's job.
The Tau's goal is to conquer the galaxy not spread love.
The Tau's goal is to spread the Greater Good, conquering the galaxy is the "Goodest" (haha, englih) way to do so.
CpatTom wrote:It is. It also makes a number of assumptions based the early warning systems the Tau have capable to them. gak, Chaos could open up shop in a few minutes if GW focused its writers on that task.
Agreed!
The Tau's goal is to spread the Greater Good, conquering the galaxy is the "Goodest" (haha, englih) way to do so.
Mentlegen324 wrote:I doubt the Tau could completely defeat every threat. But they are likely to be able to win most individual fights.
They are constantly improving their technology and adapting to deal with new threats.
The Imperium may have better technology in some key areas, but the majority of that technology is either unreplaceable or very difficult to get more of. When it's gone, it's gone.
The Tau are rapidly advancing and will likely be able to deal with the majority of threats soon. By the time something large (E.g a Waaagh, Tyranids, Crusade etc) reaches them they will be able to deal with it alot better than they could currently.
Sounds like a no-limits fallacy to me.
While GW could decide to unleash anything on them of that scale at any time, currently there is nothing we know of heading towards them. If something was sent, whatever it would be would take quite a while to get there and by that time it arrives Tau technology would have improved.
Prehaps i phrased it wrongly, but what i basically meant was that unless it's something completely new, they would have developed more counters towards the threat. I did not mean they would be able to completely destroy whatever threat arrives, just deal with it better than they could currently.
CpatTom wrote:Not all the other races, everyday, more and more races see the light that is the Greater Good.
I smell propaganda .
The Tau aren't developing any anti Chaos counters to my knowledge. So, watch for that.
As I have kept saying; its either Chaos or Nids who will win in 40k. Frankly, I want them to win just to spite you Tau fans cause you guys annoy me so much .
On the subject of warp travel and technology, it's obvious that warp travel involves technology because psychic devices such as the Geller Field generator, Librarian helmets and Teleporters exist.
Secondly, humans can't hear ultrasonic noises like dog whistles, but we can still sense them and generate them using technology.
Thus there is no reason why the Tau should not invent some form of warp drive not based on space magic.
Kilkrazy wrote:On the subject of warp travel and technology, it's obvious that warp travel involves technology because psychic devices such as the Geller Field generator, Librarian helmets and Teleporters exist.
Secondly, humans can't hear ultrasonic noises like dog whistles, but we can still sense them and generate them using technology.
Thus there is no reason why the Tau should not invent some form of warp drive not based on space magic.
The Tau already have a their version of a Warp travel which doesn't entail entering the Warp. Its just that they can't use Warp travel to its full capacity cause they are not psychic nor can they perceive the Warp.
I promise you'll like it. Just give it a try. its "good" for you.
As I have kept saying; its either Chaos or Nids who will win in 40k. Frankly, I want them to win just to spite you Tau fans cause you guys annoy me so much .
LET THE GALAXY BURN!!!
My money is on the Orks, but more or less the same outcome either way. Fighting to forever.
BrainDeleted wrote:To the above, what makes you think the Tau would have better planet killers than the Imperium? They don't have better big guns (By this I mean face smashingly, mind implodingly HUGE guns) than the Imperium does on the Space level.
Through their extreme knowledge of plasma and magnetic technologies. If the ethos of Tau ever changed, I bet they could develop a Rail Gun that could slice a planet in half if the really wanted to.
BrainDeleted wrote:Tactically, the Tau have no equivalents to Titans. I suppose Mantas, Barracudas, and Tiger Sharks could fill the gap but at the same time...Not really. The Imperium possesses much better super heavies whether tank or titan.
As they've shown in the Taros Campaign, the Tau don't need equivalents. Perhaps another two-hundred years down the road, Titans and Baneblades and Land Raiders will be downed by Crisis Suits.
The Imperium thinks bigger equals better, while the Tau's armaments (to the Mechanicums detestment) keep getting smaller and more streamlined.
Which again is dictated by the ethos of both races. Tau want to preserve as much infastructure and resources as possible while the Imperium could care less what happens.
Tadashi wrote:The Germans thought the same in WWII, but the Soviets simply threw HUGE numbers at them until they broke, something the Imperium and the Orks can do and won't hesitate to do.
This is incorrect. There were other factors that affected Germany's defeat in the East, moreso than the shambling horde that was Russia's Army.
Tadashi wrote:Without psykers, they can't use warp technology to it's full potential
I honestly don't see that their inferior because they're a psyker-dead race. The Imperium has the latest and greatest Tom-Tom GPS (with all its flaws) built into their dash while the Tau stick the current Atlas on their iPads.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't it take a while for the Imperium to develop warp-based travel? Do we even know how long it took? How come you Emperor-Botherers don't give the Tau the same grace period to find galaxy-wide travel?
Ah, and once again we hear about the galaxy-shattering railgun. And Tau fans wonder why Imperial fans get all irritated about them. And how many times do we have to say that the Tau can't use warp technology without psykers. The Immaterium is a psychic realm. Without psykers, you can't understand it. That's why the Tau can't fully use warp technology to it's full potential. As for Germany, yes, they overreached themselves in Russia. Same with the Tau. Sooner or later, they're going to to overreach into Imperial space, and the Imperium will retake those worlds such that the Tau can't reinforce until it's too late, or by the time their reinforcements arrive, they'll be walking into a trap.
Oh and the Tau don't have the advance technology in the galaxy. Historically, that would belong to pre-Fall Eldar (psychic technology), Necrons (material technology), and Dark Age of Technology Humans (a mix of both). In 40k, Eldar and Necrons still have the position of having the best technology in the galaxy with regards to their specialties.
Once the tau gain modern warp travel I believe they will be a much bigger threat. As of now they cannot expand beyond their current borders. If they were to get into any real size conflict with the IoM they would be incapable le often reinforcing the battle in their favour.
however IMO I think the biggest anchor to their forward movement is the greater good itself it causes them to be naive and overlook just how evil everyone is. They have shown this on several occasions.
First post since I joined the military, its good to be back.
Tadashi wrote:They can't acquire warp technology. They don't have the psykers to do it, and the Ethereals forbade warp research after the fall of Medusa.
You have said that a lot. Almost the exact same thing. After you make your point you don't need to keep restating it.
It's because people keep insisting the Tau would replace the Imperium and obtain better drives. How can they do either if they can't get from one place to the other?
Its a time will tell thing. That's why my very first post was only time will tell. If the tau make faster then FTL ships, then that's it they basically won when they get that. The problem is that making fast FTL is hard as heck the IoM barley dose it.
Which means they will never do it. Imperial psykers are unstable, so the Imperial Warp Drive is also less than completely reliable, but the Tau, lacking psykers, can never acquire an equal system. Their current system was reverse-engineered from a derelict vessel, so if they didn't manage to reverse-engineer, they never would have acquired FTL at all. And without psykers, they couldn't improve it at all. Not to mention that after the Fall of Medusa V, the Ethereal Caste forbade further warp and psychic research.
Your assuming they have to do it in the exact same way that the IoM did it and that they can't make new technology. There are a lot of ways they can achieve faster travel and they are always making new technology. It's one of thous things, you can't really tell what it will look like when its done, but given enough time they will do it. It will be hard, but it's has happend before.
My pet theory is giant slingshots, but the idea of them using the webway also tickles me.
nomotog wrote:Its a time will tell thing. That's why my very first post was only time will tell. If the tau make faster then FTL ships, then that's it they basically won when they get that. The problem is that making fast FTL is hard as heck the IoM barley dose it.
No, the Tau will still be hopelessly outnumbered by every race in 40k the acquisition of warp travel on the IoM's level will mean the other races will vies them as more of a threat than just a Tyranid speed bump and will actually TRY to exitinguish them.
When they are capable of furthering their territory they will obviously continue to acquire new followers for the greater good and this will surely start to annoy the IoM, who will then stomp a mud hole and walk it dry.
Ah, no. Not the Webway. The Necrons can barely do it, and their technology is superior even to the Eldar, at least in material terms. And with the removal of the inertialess drive in the new Necron Codex, there are now only two canon FTL in 40k: warp travel and the webway. Without psykers, the Tau can't master either. The Necrons don't have psykers, that's why their portals are unstable. The Tau might break into the Webway, but this would piss the Eldar off big time, and the Tau don't have the technology or the abilities necessary to stand against the Eldar.
Tadashi wrote:Ah, no. Not the Webway. The Necrons can barely do it, and their technology is superior even to the Eldar, at least in material terms. And with the removal of the inertialess drive in the new Necron Codex, there are now only two canon FTL in 40k: warp travel and the webway. Without psykers, the Tau can't master either. The Necrons don't have psykers, that's why their portals are unstable. The Tau might break into the Webway, but this would piss the Eldar off big time, and the Tau don't have the technology or the abilities necessary to stand against the Eldar.
Tau tech can stand up to the eldar, but I wasn't thinking they would go to war with the eldar. This is the tau we are talking about. They would brofist and work together. My pet theory is still the slingshot though.
nomotog wrote:Its a time will tell thing. That's why my very first post was only time will tell. If the tau make faster then FTL ships, then that's it they basically won when they get that. The problem is that making fast FTL is hard as heck the IoM barley dose it.
No, the Tau will still be hopelessly outnumbered by every race in 40k the acquisition of warp travel on the IoM's level will mean the other races will vies them as more of a threat than just a Tyranid speed bump and will actually TRY to exitinguish them.
When they are capable of furthering their territory they will obviously continue to acquire new followers for the greater good and this will surely start to annoy the IoM, who will then stomp a mud hole and walk it dry.
Good point. This would really catch the High Lords' attention, which would see the launch of the biggest Crusade and the biggest bloodbath since the Sabbat Worlds Crusade. That would mark the end of the Tau for sure. It might also attract the attention of the Word Bearers. Those guys HATE atheists more than they hate Imperials, and if the Tau start replacing the Imperium, Lorgar will probably pop out of his tower, and lead his own Black Crusade against the Tau.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nomotog wrote:
Tadashi wrote:Ah, no. Not the Webway. The Necrons can barely do it, and their technology is superior even to the Eldar, at least in material terms. And with the removal of the inertialess drive in the new Necron Codex, there are now only two canon FTL in 40k: warp travel and the webway. Without psykers, the Tau can't master either. The Necrons don't have psykers, that's why their portals are unstable. The Tau might break into the Webway, but this would piss the Eldar off big time, and the Tau don't have the technology or the abilities necessary to stand against the Eldar.
Tau tech can stand up to the eldar, but I wasn't thinking they would go to war with the eldar. This is the tau we are talking about. They would brofist and work together. My pet theory is still the slingshot though.
Not if they break into the Webway, they won't. And they might fight alongside each other, only for the Eldar to turn on the Tau once they're mutual interests are secure, and the Eldar's interests are paramount again. And the Tau lack the psychic abilities to engage the Eldar, even if they can match the technology.
nomotog wrote:I don't know why you keep assuming they will brake in.
Good Gracious man, do you really think the Eldar would grant long-term access to the Webway to anyone but themselves. In 40k the Eldar grant temporary access to the Webway, but only in dire need, like during a Black Crusade. They didn't do in the Dark Age of Technology, when Mankind was less xenophobic and we were actually advancing.
Tadashi wrote:Ah, and once again we hear about the galaxy-shattering railgun. And Tau fans wonder why Imperial fans get all irritated about them.
I didn't say galaxy-shattering. Please read the post. And that's only if the Tau change their ethos on military expansion and colonization. It's alot better than your 'derp drive-by Virus Bombs and Extermanatus derp' dreams, which will never happen.
And how many times do we have to say that the Tau can't use warp technology without psykers. The Immaterium is a psychic realm. Without psykers, you can't understand it. That's why the Tau can't fully use warp technology to it's full potential.
Who said anything about warp travel? I was merely asking about the Tau creating a Segmentum-wide engine drive that works in the Materium and then from that exapnding to a galaxy-wide travel, but since the Imperial Fans don't want to give Tau the same grace period in which the Imperium of Man developed their Space Travel, the discussion turns into one speaking to a brick wall with the Aquila on it .
As for Germany, yes, they overreached themselves in Russia. Same with the Tau. Sooner or later, they're going to to overreach into Imperial space, and the Imperium will retake those worlds such that the Tau can't reinforce until it's too late, or by the time their reinforcements arrive, they'll be walking into a trap.
Its not the same. And it wasn't Germany over-reaching (it was rather the opposite), and a slew of other factors which you're blatanly ignoring just so you can shore up your shoddy explanations.
Oh and the Tau don't have the advance technology in the galaxy. Historically, that would belong to pre-Fall Eldar (psychic technology), Necrons (material technology), and Dark Age of Technology Humans (a mix of both). In 40k, Eldar and Necrons still have the position of having the best technology in the galaxy with regards to their specialties.
Where in my post did I say Tau had the most advanced Technology in 40k?
Whether or not the Tau develop the technology to expand further into the Segmentum is a non-issue. Of course. All they need is time. Give them the same time that the Imperium had to create most of its Warp Technologies and I garauntee they'll have something to put around the Segmentum with.
The Tau don't need a grace period be use they have no way to truly master warp travel. They are already at the point when humans first began exploring the galaxy with "jumps" and they got there in no time at all. Giving them a grace e period is like giving a rock Time to learn to fly.
xXSir MontyXx wrote:The Tau don't need a grace period be use they have no way to truly master warp travel. They are already at the point when humans first began exploring the galaxy with "jumps" and they got there in no time at all. Giving them a grace e period is like giving a rock Time to learn to fly.
Finally, some one understands. Warp travel is psychic in nature. Lacking psykers, the Tau can't improve their drives, and if the Necrons, the most technologically advanced (at least in terms of material technology) race in 40k couldn't figure out non-warp FTL, then the Tau can't do it either.
CpatTom wrote:
I promise you'll like it. Just give it a try. its "good" for you.
NEVER!
My money is on the Orks, but more or less the same outcome either way. Fighting to forever.
No to me the galaxy will burn in that all life will die!
Tadashi wrote:Ah, no. Not the Webway. The Necrons can barely do it, and their technology is superior even to the Eldar, at least in material terms. And with the removal of the inertialess drive in the new Necron Codex, there are now only two canon FTL in 40k: warp travel and the webway. Without psykers, the Tau can't master either. The Necrons don't have psykers, that's why their portals are unstable. The Tau might break into the Webway, but this would piss the Eldar off big time, and the Tau don't have the technology or the abilities necessary to stand against the Eldar.
You seem to have forgotten about the Nids and their Gravitational drive.
nomotog wrote:
Tau tech can stand up to the eldar, but I wasn't thinking they would go to war with the eldar. This is the tau we are talking about. They would brofist and work together. My pet theory is still the slingshot though.
Which will never happen. The Eldar will occasionally work with other races if they have no choice or if it suits their whims but they have no intention of ever being friends or subjects of another races empire. The Eldar believe that the galaxy is their birthright and they intend to reforge the Eldar empire of possible, combine this along with the fact that they are xenophobic. So your idea unless done by GW plot fiat is not happening.
KplKeegan wrote:
Who said anything about warp travel? I was merely asking about the Tau creating a Segmentum-wide engine drive that works in the Materium and then from that exapnding to a galaxy-wide travel, but since the Imperial Fans don't want to give Tau the same grace period in which the Imperium of Man developed their Space Travel, the discussion turns into one speaking to a brick wall with the Aquila on it .
The Imperium didn't develop the Warp drive. It was developed by the DAoT humanity.
Tyranid Gravity Drives are biological in nature. You'd have to capture a Hive Ship to study it, and keep it alive. That's suicide. The Hive Fleets would be drawn to you faster than they would to a Genestealer call.
Tadashi wrote: Tyranid Gravity Drives are biological in nature. You'd have to capture a Hive Ship to study it, and keep it alive. That's suicide. The Hive Fleets would be drawn to you faster than they would to a Genestealer call.
And that's only if the Tau change their ethos on military expansion and colonization. It's alot better than your 'derp drive-by Virus Bombs and Extermanatus derp' dreams, which will never happen.
Change isn't necessary. Just lack of control of the etheral caste for a while...since this so called ethos is a lie.
Exterminatus is an option in 40k. So it may or may not happen. Da'lyth got close to it.
Exterminatus is chosen only if a ground campaign is unfeasible or the planet is deemed too tainted or dangerous to be allowed to continue to exist. Yes it's an option, but conquest is preferable.
Dude, you asume that te Imperium has the power to destroy a race? There are a ton of alien empires the size of the Tau empire but the IMperium hasnt wiped out any of them. The alien empires are thriwing and taking IMperial worlds. Besides, all imperial forces are sent to Cadia, Armageddon or against the nids. Please also tell me who said that the Tau are to replace the Imperium? Are you sure that was a person and not your imagination?
Isn't part of the OP asking if the Tau flag will fly over the universe? So many Tau fans have pointed out if the Tau acquire better FTL (not gonna happen) they could become a greater galacitc power; not to mention all the references about the Water Caste eventually causing a mass secession in surrounding sectors (resulting in the greatest Crusade since the Sabbat Worlds)...need I go on? Too many people have posted these for me to count or find.
Space Crusader wrote: you assume that the Imperium has the power to destroy a race?
Not an assumption, fact.
Enough dead worlds with ruins on them as evidence.
Space Crusader wrote:There are a ton of alien empires the size of the Tau empire but the Imperium hasn't wiped out any of them.
You don't hear about those who got exterminated...
Space Crusader wrote:The alien empires are thriving and taking Imperial worlds.
Thriving until they get eaten by nids, beaten by orks or oppressed or killed by necrons.
Not paying attention,eh?
There is no such thing as the imperium as the only target of the threats.
Space Crusader wrote:Besides, all imperial forces are sent to Cadia, Armageddon or against the nids.
No.
Space Crusader wrote:Please also tell me who said that the Tau are to replace the Imperium?
How about these (troll) posts, which aim to bait people into bashing the Tau so the lack of fluff doesn't end the thread too soon?
Its pretty obvious such nonsense gets posted regularly.
and Amen! Every time the Imperium expands, countless alien races are mentioned to be destroyed. The only alien races that are spared are those that lie outside Imperial reach, or are not considered priority targets.
Also I think the eastern fringe, namely the Macragge area, since it has been announced that Chaos may be playing a much larger role in the 6th ED backstory, the marine codex has seemed to lay the groundwork for it, see pg.40 last battle entry, and pg. 48 end of the zeist campaign description.
Some Chaos baddie named M'kar is leading a assault upon the Ultramarines homeworlds, and the Blue marines have recalled all their forces to defense of these systems, looks like some upheaval may be coming, the extent of which hopefully will be more than just another stalemate, so the IoM may yet again have to go into the planet reclamation bussiness, they have turned into galactic repo-men
Thanks to GW, we know that the Imperium has at least a million worlds under it's control. No matter how many worlds are lost, more worlds are conquered or discovered, keeping the number of worlds under Imperial control stable.
Which means that we Imperials have already won. The Lords of Creation at GW will never destroy the Imperium, since doing so would kill their business, so the great Imperium of Man can claim victory. You can attack us all you want, the Creators have already granted us victory.
Tadashi wrote:Thanks to GW, we know that the Imperium has at least a million worlds under it's control. No matter how many worlds are lost, more worlds are conquered or discovered, keeping the number of worlds under Imperial control stable.
Which means that we Imperials have already won. The Lords of Creation at GW will never destroy the Imperium, since doing so would kill their business, so the great Imperium of Man can claim victory. You can attack us all you want, the Creators have already granted us victory.
Actually you are completely and totally wrong
The Imperials will never win, since this game is all about War, and the selling of little plastic soldiers, no one will ever win, and no race will ever be eliminated unless its sales totally tank, all the creators have done is build a arena where the IoM is constantly prodded and tortured, so sorry in order for GW to continue to make money and support this game the IoM will never know victory, small gains and small losses, but no victory like you so desperatly hope for.
And all the races are in the same boat, no victory or defeat, only war....just like the advertising says.
That's not the point. When I meant the Imperium has won, I didn't mean that the Imperium has defeated all it's enemies. It's similar to saying that the Orks have won the battle for survival (which they have), but they're not the dominant species in the galaxy. The same with the Imperium. All it's enemies try to destroy and replace, but they can't because doing so would end 40k, so it's not gonna happen. No matter how many battles we lose, the Imperium cannot and will not be destroyed. It's a stalemate, but the Imperium has won already in it's goal to ensure Mankind's survival and continued galactic dominance.
Tadashi wrote:That's not the point. When I meant the Imperium has won, I didn't mean that the Imperium has defeated all it's enemies. It's similar to saying that the Orks have won the battle for survival (which they have), but they're not the dominant species in the galaxy. The same with the Imperium. All it's enemies try to destroy and replace, but they can't because doing so would end 40k, so it's not gonna happen. No matter how many battles we lose, the Imperium cannot and will not be destroyed. It's a stalemate, but the Imperium has won already in it's goal to ensure Mankind's survival and continued galactic dominance.
So....
You mean the IoM has won, but has not won.
Your parameters of victory can apply to every race in the game, all their enemies try to destroy them , all of them survive, Necrons, Tau,Orks, Chaos,Nids, Eldar, all come under constant attacks and all survive, all have the Goal to ensure their own survival, and no one has galactic dominance, since that very word entails control and domain over the galaxy.
and in your own statement you contradict yourself, saying its a stalemate, but the IoM has won because its surviving, sorry, surviving is not a victory, just a existance. no sale.
Imperium of Man - to ensure Mankind's survival and galactic dominance - successful
Chaos - to destroy the Imperium and subdue the galaxy for Chaos - not gonna happen
Tyranids - to consume all life - not gonna happen
Eldar - to survive and restore the ancient Eldar Empire - first goal success, second goal, not gonna happen
Dark Eldar - to continue to pillage and torment the galaxy - successful
Orks - to survive and get a good fight - complete success
Tau - to spread the Greater Good across the galaxy - not gonna happen
Necrons - to stop the Tyranids and ensure Necrontyr dominance - first goal guaranteed success, second goal, not gonna happen
And when I say dominance, I don't mean it becomes the sole race in the galaxy. I meant that it was the race with the biggest influence in the galaxy of 40k.
Tadashi, I did not know that you could see into the future. The Imperium of man is dommed. It is barly surviving. At one point it was split! Shows how powerfull it is when it cannot even keep itself together at all times.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
And all the races are in the same boat, no victory or defeat, only war....just like the advertising says.
Space Crusader wrote:Tadashi, I did not know that you could see into the future. The Imperium of man is dommed. It is barly surviving. At one point it was split! Shows how powerfull it is when it cannot even keep itself together at all times.
Doomed?
Doomed are the minions of chaos...
The IoM can split and reforge.
Take the etherals of of the Tau and we will see how this unity works out.
BTW, Orks are constantly split, as are Eldar , Necrons, and chaos itself.
Maybe united space elfs wouldn't be that bad, but orks , crons and chaos better stay separated...for the sake of the Galaxy.
Thinking of it, unified necrons would provide order and unity, so just pay tribute and go your merry ways doesn't look to shoddy.
Certainly next edition could mix up the stale brew that is 40 k now, the stasis vaults opening and chaos emerge again trying to conquer us all.
Until they get it wrong and 40k turns into LotR in spase, looking forward to see the disbelief of the Tau tested when the sky is filled with spiky things and reality folds under the strain of warp rifts..
Yes, but if it falls, there goes 40k, so no the Imperium will not fall. And I don't have unsanctioned psychic abilities, any more than a Sniper Drone is controlled by an Abominable Intelligence.
and I am looking forward to when I can actually enjoy discussing the Tau on this forum, without the IoM hordes always wishlisting doom on them, but that likely will never happen, since it seems thats how alot of you guys get your jollies off.
I have never stated once I want to see such and such race destroyed or removed, and I see each as a nice addition to the setting, I personally am bored to death of IoM , and chaos, but have tried a foray into marine terittory, will be building a Marines Malevolent force, just for giggles.
But you mentioned the stale brw of 40k..well Tau were one of the races implemented to shake things up, so by making them be "tested" i.e. molded to be yet another grimdark race in this stale setting, does nothing for its growth, just more of the same, with a differnt paint job.
When they Grimdark the Tau I will shelve my army , just not interested in that element enough to continue, It happened to me when they changed the brettonians in warhammer and I never went back, the Tau flavor is what has kept me in the game.
So the next time there is a Tau thread, maybe, just maybe let it stay one...but that won't happen.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:and I am looking forward to when I can actually enjoy discussing the Tau on this forum, without the IoM hordes always wishlisting doom on them, but that likely will never happen, since it seems thats how alot of you guys get your jollies off.
I have never stated once I want to see such and such race destroyed or removed, and I see each as a nice addition to the setting, I personally am bored to death of IoM , and chaos, but have tried a foray into marine terittory, will be building a Marines Malevolent force, just for giggles.
But you mentioned the stale brw of 40k..well Tau were one of the races implemented to shake things up, so by making them be "tested" i.e. molded to be yet another grimdark race in this stale setting, does nothing for its growth, just more of the same, with a differnt paint job.
When they Grimdark the Tau I will shelve my army , just not interested in that element enough to continue, It happened to me when they changed the brettonians in warhammer and I never went back, the Tau flavor is what has kept me in the game.
So the next time there is a Tau thread, maybe, just maybe let it stay one...but that won't happen.
I really like the IoM(more or less the old ideals when the Emperor was around) but have to break it that its prob going to fall,crumble. etc. Its not a all at once thing. It also doesn't mean that other races will be affected or that every world of Man just suddenly gets assaulted by Daemons and such. Just that the Governing body of the Imperium can no longer hold it together(cause of corruption, greed,etc. things alrady rife in the IoM) so worlds start governing themselves and slip away one at a time. I can actually see a good progressing story line being made by GW using the Tau as the new star race of the universe. I will of course stay ever faithful the the human race ....or chaos
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:and I am looking forward to when I can actually enjoy discussing the Tau on this forum, without the IoM hordes always wishlisting doom on them, but that likely will never happen, since it seems thats how alot of you guys get your jollies off.
I have never stated once I want to see such and such race destroyed or removed, and I see each as a nice addition to the setting, I personally am bored to death of IoM , and chaos, but have tried a foray into marine terittory, will be building a Marines Malevolent force, just for giggles.
But you mentioned the stale brw of 40k..well Tau were one of the races implemented to shake things up, so by making them be "tested" i.e. molded to be yet another grimdark race in this stale setting, does nothing for its growth, just more of the same, with a differnt paint job.
When they Grimdark the Tau I will shelve my army , just not interested in that element enough to continue, It happened to me when they changed the brettonians in warhammer and I never went back, the Tau flavor is what has kept me in the game.
So the next time there is a Tau thread, maybe, just maybe let it stay one...but that won't happen.
I really like the Wordbearer vs Tau idea. It is the perfect opposite of ideals. Brilliant stuff.
And one faction has already won: The Orks.
The Orks "objective" is to fight all the time. In 40k there is fighting all the time. The Orks have achieved their ultimate purpose, and thus are the winners of 40k.
Space Crusader wrote:Tadashi, I did not know that you could see into the future. The Imperium of man is dommed. It is barly surviving. At one point it was split! Shows how powerfull it is when it cannot even keep itself together at all times.
Unfortunately for you, that shows how resilient and powerful the Imperium is since it got reunified again .
Lord Chiasson wrote:I really like the IoM(more or less the old ideals when the Emperor was around) but have to break it that its prob going to fall,crumble. etc. Its not a all at once thing. It also doesn't mean that other races will be affected or that every world of Man just suddenly gets assaulted by Daemons and such. Just that the Governing body of the Imperium can no longer hold it together(cause of corruption, greed,etc. things alrady rife in the IoM) so worlds start governing themselves and slip away one at a time. I can actually see a good progressing story line being made by GW using the Tau as the new star race of the universe. I will of course stay ever faithful the the human race ....or chaos
Imperium worlds already rule themselves.
CpatTom wrote:I really like the Wordbearer vs Tau idea. It is the perfect opposite of ideals. Brilliant stuff.
And one faction has already won: The Orks.
The Orks "objective" is to fight all the time. In 40k there is fighting all the time. The Orks have achieved their ultimate purpose, and thus are the winners of 40k.
The idea is basically an extension of how they currently do things. It's a massive space structure with several jump drives (I call tau warp drives jump drives because they don't work like a war drive) They press down on the barrier between the material and the wap over a massive area around the ship. Then they let it go. As the barrier snaps back into place it launches the ship really really far.
Tadashi wrote:
Ah, and once again we hear about the galaxy-shattering railgun. And Tau fans wonder why Imperial fans get all irritated about them. And how many times do we have to say that the Tau can't use warp technology without psykers. The Immaterium is a psychic realm. Without psykers, you can't understand it. That's why the Tau can't fully use warp technology to it's full potential. As for Germany, yes, they overreached themselves in Russia. Same with the Tau. Sooner or later, they're going to to overreach into Imperial space, and the Imperium will retake those worlds such that the Tau can't reinforce until it's too late, or by the time their reinforcements arrive, they'll be walking into a trap.
Have you forgot that the Tau Empire isn't just the Tau? Several of their allies could have psykers.
Several Tau allied races are known to be psyker capable (Gue'vesa, Kroot, Nicissar) and/or have warp access (Gue'vesa, Kroot, Demiurg) so using the conventional warp is not beyond their allies.
Still, there is much talk of 'best' tech in the universe. I think that is a fundamentally flawed position to take. Each race had developed their tech along different lines and different priorities. As a result each race has one or more fields of tech that they are better than the rest of the universe in and a few areas where they are woefully inadequate.
Have the Tau peaked in their technological development? The fluff says no, but they may be close. The next codex may give us some insights into where things wind up. Perhaps there was a great breakthrough, or perhaps the Demi-urg have collaborated in exchange for entering the Empire as equals rather than subjects.
If they develop fast FTL rather than their current slow FTL travel it will certainly open up great advantages to them and great potential dangers. The Tau have already demonstrated the ability to outmanoeuvre the Imperium in space over short distance (Shadowsun was able to watch hit and run attacks across several different worlds without the Imperium being able to catch her) so a longer legged fast FTL could allow them to strike almost anywhere in the Ultima Segmentum.
The fact that the Tau are predominately active in the Ultima Segmentum povides good long term opportunities for them as well. That s the are in which the light of the Astronomicon is dimmest (and growing dimmer all the time) so Imperium Warp Travel is at it's most unreliable there. Given that Imperium worlds are not usually self sufficient this means that the Tau may eventually become the defacto power in the sector just through havign better lines of communication.
Assuming they do develop fast FTL to replace their current slow FTL. I see this as an eventuality, but it requires the timeline to progress considerably. We may see it if 6th edition rewrites the galaxy as rumoured.
Jefffar wrote:Several Tau allied races are known to be psyker capable (Gue'vesa, Kroot, Nicissar) and/or have warp access (Gue'vesa, Kroot, Demiurg) so using the conventional warp is not beyond their allies.
Gue'vesa(how I hate that word, hate I tell you!) are stated to be the descendants of Imperial Guard or former Imperial planets so I don't know if they actually have ships. Demiurg, IIRC, don't use the Warp as far as I know.
Still, there is much talk of 'best' tech in the universe. I think that is a fundamentally flawed position to take. Each race had developed their tech along different lines and different priorities. As a result each race has one or more fields of tech that they are better than the rest of the universe in and a few areas where they are woefully inadequate.
Have the Tau peaked in their technological development? The fluff says no, but they may be close. The next codex may give us some insights into where things wind up. Perhaps there was a great breakthrough, or perhaps the Demi-urg have collaborated in exchange for entering the Empire as equals rather than subjects.
If they develop fast FTL rather than their current slow FTL travel it will certainly open up great advantages to them and great potential dangers. The Tau have already demonstrated the ability to outmanoeuvre the Imperium in space over short distance (Shadowsun was able to watch hit and run attacks across several different worlds without the Imperium being able to catch her) so a longer legged fast FTL could allow them to strike almost anywhere in the Ultima Segmentum.
The fact that the Tau are predominately active in the Ultima Segmentum povides good long term opportunities for them as well. That s the are in which the light of the Astronomicon is dimmest (and growing dimmer all the time) so Imperium Warp Travel is at it's most unreliable there. Given that Imperium worlds are not usually self sufficient this means that the Tau may eventually become the defacto power in the sector just through havign better lines of communication.
Assuming they do develop fast FTL to replace their current slow FTL. I see this as an eventuality, but it requires the timeline to progress considerably. We may see it if 6th edition rewrites the galaxy as rumoured.
I can't see that happening unless GW does a plot fiat seeing as the Tau will have to battle against Ultramar(aka Wardland) itself to have the chance to take over the Ultima Segmentum and fight the Imperium itself and fight against the encroaching Nids as well.
can't see that happening unless GW does a plot fiat seeing as the Tau will have to battle against Ultramar(aka Wardland) itself to have the chance to take over the Ultima Segmentum and fight the Imperium itself and fight against the encroaching Nids as well.
The Ultima Segmentum is expansive. All the Tau have to do is simply avoid Ultramar and 'Wardland' becomes a non-issue. The Tau already fight Tyranids, why is this fact a shocker for most people?
can't see that happening unless GW does a plot fiat seeing as the Tau will have to battle against Ultramar(aka Wardland) itself to have the chance to take over the Ultima Segmentum and fight the Imperium itself and fight against the encroaching Nids as well.
The Ultima Segmentum is expansive. All the Tau have to do is simply avoid Ultramar and 'Wardland' becomes a non-issue. The Tau already fight Tyranids, why is this fact a shocker for most people?
Actually they fight 'nids rather successfully. Shadowsun managed to destroy an entire splinter fleet with no losses to her own forces.
can't see that happening unless GW does a plot fiat seeing as the Tau will have to battle against Ultramar(aka Wardland) itself to have the chance to take over the Ultima Segmentum and fight the Imperium itself and fight against the encroaching Nids as well.
The Ultima Segmentum is expansive. All the Tau have to do is simply avoid Ultramar and 'Wardland' becomes a non-issue. The Tau already fight Tyranids, why is this fact a shocker for most people?
But Ultramar is in the Ultima Segmentum so unless you mean the Ultramarines and Ultramar are just going to sit there and do nothing as the Ultima Segmentum is taken over by the Tau. There will be a confrontation. And according to the latest Dark Eldar codex, they don't seem to be doing too well and even more Nids are on their way so again bad luck.
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Jefffar wrote:
KplKeegan wrote:
can't see that happening unless GW does a plot fiat seeing as the Tau will have to battle against Ultramar(aka Wardland) itself to have the chance to take over the Ultima Segmentum and fight the Imperium itself and fight against the encroaching Nids as well.
The Ultima Segmentum is expansive. All the Tau have to do is simply avoid Ultramar and 'Wardland' becomes a non-issue. The Tau already fight Tyranids, why is this fact a shocker for most people?
Actually they fight 'nids rather successfully. Shadowsun managed to destroy an entire splinter fleet with no losses to her own forces.
So what? The Imperium deals with splinter fleets all the time. Its the main fleets that the Tau better be worried about.
A splinter fleet destroyed most of a fleet led by a veteran Ultramarine and then ate most of a heavily defended planet. Splinter fleets are dangerous to the Imperium since the IMperium reasons that sending men into the meatgrinder is a smart tactic against the nids.
Space Crusader wrote:A splinter fleet destroyed most of a fleet led by a veteran Ultramarine and then ate most of a heavily defended planet. Splinter fleets are dangerous to the Imperium since the IMperium reasons that sending men into the meatgrinder is a smart tactic against the nids.
Source? Its really beautiful how you Tau fans continuously howl about being attacked by fans of the other factions and yet when we have a nice civil discussion you spout out offensive nonsense. The Imperial plan of dealing with the Nids is strong defenses, not throwing men at the Nids by charging at them and if you think it is, it cause you're a fool.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:But Ultramar is in the Ultima Segmentum so unless you mean the Ultramarines and Ultramar are just going to sit there and do nothing as the Ultima Segmentum is taken over by the Tau. There will be a confrontation. And according to the latest Dark Eldar codex, they don't seem to be doing too well and even more Nids are on their way so again bad luck.
Unless the Ultramarines are of Legion strength, there's little they can do about aggressive Tau expansion. The Segmentum is vast, and Ultramar is but a blip amongst a sea of blips. Once Tau find away to make their ships faster, colonizing abused and forgotten Imperial Worlds in the upper Segmentum won't be far off.
Crowing about one incident in one occurance in the Dark Eldar Codex does not mean everything isn't going to well. And the Tau can manage the Tyranids quite well, even without the myriad of Forgeworlds and Imperial Guard regiments the Imperium needs, or pull a stupid stunt like the Octavian Wars. Good job Inquisition, you signed your own death certificate on that one.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:So what? The Imperium deals with splinter fleets all the time. Its the main fleets that the Tau better be worried about.
So should the Imperium. Why are you bringing up a mutual threat between both races? And the Imperium deals with Splinter Fleets in the most ass-backwards way possible.
KplKeegan wrote: Unless the Ultramarines are of Legion strength, there's little they can do about aggressive Tau expansion. The Segmentum is vast, and Ultramar is but a blip amongst a sea of blips. Once Tau find away to make their ships faster, colonizing abused and forgotten Imperial Worlds in the upper Segmentum won't be far off.
Crowing about one incident in one occurance in the Dark Eldar Codex does not mean everything isn't going to well.
Do you have any evidence that everything is going well other than blah blah the Tau own everything cause I say so?
And the Tau can manage the Tyranids quite well, even without the myriad of Forgeworlds and Imperial Guard regiments the Imperium needs, or pull a stupid stunt like the Octavian Wars. Good job Inquisition, you signed your own death certificate on that one.
The Imperium faces off against Tyranid Hivefleets. So far the Tau deal with splinter fleets. Next, Inquisitor Krptmann did what he did on his own, not with the approval of the Inqusition. Please read the fluff, your spouting of fluff is ill-informed.
So should the Imperium. Why are you bringing up a mutual threat between both races?
The Imperium is dealing with both the Nids and a Chaos invasion at the same time. I brought up the Nids cause if the Tau expand further they run into the same problems the Imperium suffers under of concentration of forces.
And the Imperium deals with Splinter Fleets in the most ass-backwards way possible.
Evidence?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here it is from the codex:
Doesn't sound like the Tau are pwning anyone to me.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:The Imperium faces off against Tyranid Hivefleets. So far the Tau deal with splinter fleets. Next, Inquisito Krptmann did what he did on his own, not with the approval of the Inqusition. Please read the fluff, your spouting of fluff is ill-informed.
Inquisitor Kryptman, using his authority as an Inquisitor of the Ordos Xenos still caused the Octavian War, regardless if he did it of his own accord or not.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Do you have any evidence that everything is going well other than blah blah the Tau own everything cause I say so?
The Second and Third Sphere Expansions? Unlike the whopping 6 Codicies you Emperor-Botherers get, the Tau have to wait a while for a fluff-update.
There's no point in arguing over this anymore. It's like talking to a brick wall with an Aquila on it.
KplKeegan wrote:
Inquisitor Kryptman, using his authority as an Inquisitor of the Ordos Xenos still caused the Octavian War, regardless if he did it of his own accord or not.
Such a fallacy. Inquisitor Kryptman was thrown out of the Inquisition for his action of mass planetary genocide before he implemented his plan for Octavious. Everything he did was him using his contacts on his own.
The Second and Third Sphere Expansions? Unlike the whopping 6 Codicies you Emperor-Botherers get, the Tau have to wait a while for a fluff-update.
Fail. I'm an Ork player and only have 3 codexes in my hardrive which are the current Ork codex, Tau codex and the Dark Eldar codex.
There's no point in arguing over this anymore. It's like talking to a brick wall with an Aquila on it.
Um....thanks for providing names. I was hoping it would be KplKeegan who would do this work.
However, how is DOW 2 evidence of anything seeing as the entire war effort in that region was complicated due to Eldar manipulation, an Ork Waaaagh, a Corrupt politician being a douche and the SM fleet being away(no doubt something done by Kyras).
Corporal_Reznov wrote:So what? The Imperium deals with splinter fleets all the time. Its the main fleets that the Tau better be worried about.
Yes they do, but how many times has the Imperium defeated a splinter fleet without taking a single casualty? To my knowledge, none.
The fact that the Tau can engage a splinter fleet successfully without suffering any losses indicates that the Tau are quite capable of fighting the Tyranids and winning handily.
I'm sure Tau Darkstar Warheads play a part of the anti-Tyranid strategy.
Now a protracted war with the 'nids is certainly looming and it will put the Tau forces to the test (as noted from another unnamed source they are calling in mercenaries and any other assistance they can. Perhaps they may even arrange a little enemy of my enemy is my friend action with either the Ultramarines (not likely), Eldar (reasonably likely) or Necrons (crazy talk, I know). However nowhere is it indicated that the current fear experienced in the Empire is based on a real possibility of the Empire being wiped out.
Space Crusader wrote:A splinter fleet destroyed most of a fleet led by a veteran Ultramarine and then ate most of a heavily defended planet. Splinter fleets are dangerous to the Imperium since the IMperium reasons that sending men into the meatgrinder is a smart tactic against the nids.
Source? Its really beautiful how you Tau fans continuously howl about being attacked by fans of the other factions and yet when we have a nice civil discussion you spout out offensive nonsense. The Imperial plan of dealing with the Nids is strong defenses, not throwing men at the Nids by charging at them and if you think it is, it cause you're a fool.
The Imperial fleet has success in the begining but are then almost destroyed when the nids use the Imperials own weapons against them. Before that the nids had eaten a few worlds with Kryptman exterminating a world( he sure loves doing that) before the Tyranids invade Tarsis Ultra. The Ultramarines, Mortifactors, two Guard regiments and the PDF focus on defending the capital leaving other major cities to be eaten. They use a static defence and manage rather well. But then the tyranids evolve and push the Imperials back. Only thanks to Kryptmans aid coming up with a poison that kills the Norn queen in the last remaining Hive ship does the Imperium take the day. However, the PDF, Guard, navy and astartes forces were almost completly destroyed.
Yes they do, but how many times has the Imperium defeated a splinter fleet without taking a single casualty? To my knowledge, none.
The fact that the Tau can engage a splinter fleet successfully without suffering any losses indicates that the Tau are quite capable of fighting the Tyranids and winning handily.
I'm sure Tau Darkstar Warheads play a part of the anti-Tyranid strategy.
Very possible. But to be frank I think its nonsense and wankish but I think the same of Calgar punching Avatars or Kaldor Draigo with his walking around in the Warp and stabbing a Primarch Daemon Prince .
Now a protracted war with the 'nids is certainly looming and it will put the Tau forces to the test (as noted from another unnamed source they are calling in mercenaries and any other assistance they can. Perhaps they may even arrange a little enemy of my enemy is my friend action with either the Ultramarines (not likely), Eldar (reasonably likely) or Necrons (crazy talk, I know). However nowhere is it indicated that the current fear experienced in the Empire is based on a real possibility of the Empire being wiped out.
Why not likely with the Ultramarines? Unlike popular opinion, the Imperium will temporarily ally with alien races in the face of greater threats like they did with the Eldar in the Gothic War. As for the Eldar helping the Tau; ha ha ha ha ha. Thats only happening of the Eldar have an interest with the Tau like the Tau were created by Eldar or Tau space has something that belongs to Eldar otherwise they won't care.
Oh btw, the Source is from the Dark Eldar codex page 18. I believe I mentioned this earlier saying that according to the Dark Eldar codex they're not doing to well.
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Space Crusader wrote: The Imperial fleet has success in the begining but are then almost destroyed when the nids use the Imperials own weapons against them. Before that the nids had eaten a few worlds with Kryptman exterminating a world( he sure loves doing that) before the Tyranids invade Tarsis Ultra. The Ultramarines, Mortifactors, two Guard regiments and the PDF focus on defending the capital leaving other major cities to be eaten. They use a static defence and manage rather well. But then the tyranids evolve and push the Imperials back. Only thanks to Kryptmans aid coming up with a poison that kills the Norn queen in the last remaining Hive ship does the Imperium take the day. However, the PDF, Guard, navy and astartes forces were almost completly destroyed.
I assume that this is from the Ultramarine books by Graham Mcneil? I'll be checking them out soon to get the full story.
Yeah Kryptman sure does love exterminating worlds which is why the Inquisition is after his head .
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Space Crusader wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Space Crusader wrote:A splinter fleet destroyed most of a fleet led by a veteran Ultramarine and then ate most of a heavily defended planet. Splinter fleets are dangerous to the Imperium since the IMperium reasons that sending men into the meatgrinder is a smart tactic against the nids.
Source? Its really beautiful how you Tau fans continuously howl about being attacked by fans of the other factions and yet when we have a nice civil discussion you spout out offensive nonsense. The Imperial plan of dealing with the Nids is strong defenses, not throwing men at the Nids by charging at them and if you think it is, it cause you're a fool.
The Imperial fleet has success in the begining but are then almost destroyed when the nids use the Imperials own weapons against them. Before that the nids had eaten a few worlds with Kryptman exterminating a world( he sure loves doing that) before the Tyranids invade Tarsis Ultra. The Ultramarines, Mortifactors, two Guard regiments and the PDF focus on defending the capital leaving other major cities to be eaten. They use a static defence and manage rather well. But then the tyranids evolve and push the Imperials back. Only thanks to Kryptmans aid coming up with a poison that kills the Norn queen in the last remaining Hive ship does the Imperium take the day. However, the PDF, Guard, navy and astartes forces were almost completly destroyed.
I still haven't read the book but according to Lexicanum the defense of Tarsis Ultra was defending an Imperum planet not because this spilter fleet was a threat to the existence of the Imperium. One of the defenders of the planet is a regiment from the DKoK which explains any meatgrinder tactics as the entire way of war the Kreig practice is meatgrinder. They know of no other way.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
However, how is DOW 2 evidence of anything seeing as the entire war effort in that region was complicated due to Eldar manipulation, an Ork Waaaagh, a Corrupt politician being a douche and the SM fleet being away(no doubt something done by Kyras).
That's the point. Blood Ravens kicked Tyranid Hive Fleet, Ork WARGHHH, Eldar raides and manage to hold down 4 planet using only 1 ship and 6 squads of infantry together with 1 Dred.
I think that credibility of Tyranid invasion was so lowered in this game.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:and I am looking forward to when I can actually enjoy discussing the Tau on this forum, without the IoM hordes always wishlisting doom on them, but that likely will never happen, since it seems thats how alot of you guys get your jollies off.
Just keep the IoM out of your discussions would help a lot.
The IoM 'hordes' tend to reply to weird claims, not to jump in and start it.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:I have never stated once I want to see such and such race destroyed or removed, and I see each as a nice addition to the setting, I personally am bored to death of IoM , and chaos, but have tried a foray into marine terittory, will be building a Marines Malevolent force, just for giggles.
Anyone accused you of that?
The imperials/chaos combo may stay a basic part of 40k for a very long time, I don't see your chance on entertainment if you try to get around this.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:But you mentioned the stale brew of 40k..well Tau were one of the races implemented to shake things up, so by making them be "tested" i.e. molded to be yet another grimdark race in this stale setting, does nothing for its growth, just more of the same, with a different paint job.
Seems I am adressed here..
A company driven on skulls does not care if you spot their copy&paste behaviour. They opted to make necrons more tomb kings in space and thus took of them what made them special. GW altered DE to space vampire pirates and the only thing sparing the Tau from a fate like that is they don't have a direct fantasy counterpart. OtoH the kroot could count as lizardmen with their heritage...
Now, I am not the one to take your Tau from you.
But GW laid out the foundation of a new path as they never revealed who created the etherals for example. Its right there from start.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:So the next time there is a Tau thread, maybe, just maybe let it stay one...but that won't happen.
Isn't it still a Tau thread?
What makes it a Tau thread? The absence of any non-Tau posters?
CpatTom wrote:
The Orks have achieved their ultimate purpose, and thus are the winners of 40k.
Not news.
nomotog wrote:
The idea is basically an extension of how they currently do things. It's a massive space structure with several jump drives (I call tau warp drives jump drives because they don't work like a warp drive) They press down on the barrier between the material and the warp over a massive area around the ship. Then they let it go. As the barrier snaps back into place it launches the ship really really far.
You need to get back somehow...
Plus weakening the barrier invites demons.
Jefffar wrote:Several Tau allied races are known to be psyker capable (Gue'vesa, Kroot, Nicissar) and/or have warp access (Gue'vesa, Kroot, Demiurg) so using the conventional warp is not beyond their allies.
This is part of GW publications where and when?
Oh look they dropped the gue'vesa idea...and the kroot mercs lists and the nicassar are pure BFG and never made it into the main line of 40k.
I think your idea isn't presented just in time, its more too soon if it ever comes to pass at all.
GW kept the necrons psyker free and took their drives from them...you know the recent example of a fluff update.
DE also have no psykers. Both got access to the webway tough, could get crowded there..
Jefffar wrote:so a longer legged fast FTL could allow them to strike almost anywhere in the Ultima Segmentum.
Achieving what exactly?
To support the advance of the nids?
To supply enough upheaval and wars for Orks to thrive?
To keep eldar farseers busy?
KplKeegan wrote:
Unless the Ultramarines are of Legion strength, there's little they can do about aggressive Tau expansion. The Segmentum is vast, and Ultramar is but a blip amongst a sea of blips. Once Tau find away to make their ships faster, colonizing abused and forgotten Imperial Worlds in the upper Segmentum won't be far off.
The Ultras could call for support and cruddace could throw these billions of guard regiments at them, walzing them flat under marching army boots..
Seriously, the point was a certain author countering any fluff you could make up, and the hold the design team has on the fluff outmatching the fans is an undisputable fact.
KplKeegan wrote:Crowing about one incident in one occurance in the Dark Eldar Codex does not mean everything isn't going to well. And the Tau can manage the Tyranids quite well, even without the myriad of Forgeworlds and Imperial Guard regiments the Imperium needs, or pull a stupid stunt like the Octavian Wars. Good job Inquisition, you signed your own death certificate on that one.
One incident?
You don't like to stay in touch with fluff don't you?
Tau pretty much got the image of naive, easy to prey upon, newbies who have their heads smashed in because of their dreaded misconception of everyone joining their greater good. After all of the commonly known threats got a shot, you still run with this claim of Tau handling things well? They are rife for a change, and the course GW is willing to take may provide a really different result than you expect.
KplKeegan wrote:
The Second and Third Sphere Expansions? Unlike the whopping 6 Codicies you Emperor-Botherers get, the Tau have to wait a while for a fluff-update.
There is a section of dakka, called news&rumors. Tau got their own thread there....maybe visit it once in a while?
Generally its piss poor style to whine about the emperor botherers having more codices, as 40k is based on the setting of a fictional universe with human readers in mind and therefore a focus on the humans of this "era". Get over it.
If GW moves it to chaos country, you may as well face 6 chaos dedicated codices, all filled with spiky mutated humans...
KplKeegan wrote:There's no point in arguing over this anymore. It's like talking to a brick wall with an Aquila on it.
The brick wall had to be erected since some "fans" deem their view of the background the only valid one. The Aquila on it is just a mark it belongs to 40k...
They built trenches when the capital had two huge walls. Then they abandon the trenches after the first wave. They even suffered heavy casualties before the first wave due to gargoiles. The deathkorps here are not really deathkorps. These have feelings and dont wear their gasmasks. It was only thanks to Kryptmans assistant that the Imperium won. Nerds for the win!
Jefffar wrote:Several Tau allied races are known to be psyker capable (Gue'vesa, Kroot, Nicissar) and/or have warp access (Gue'vesa, Kroot, Demiurg) so using the conventional warp is not beyond their allies.
This is part of GW publications where and when?
Oh look they dropped the gue'vesa idea...and the kroot mercs lists and the nicassar are pure BFG and never made it into the main line of 40k.
I think your idea isn't presented just in time, its more too soon if it ever comes to pass at all.
All of those were a GW publication. Them not being 'main 40k' doesn't mean they are completely disregarded or don't exist.
1hadhq stop spitting your dummy out.. Soo'vah'cha i think he was saying that he was not accused of saying he wanted to exterminate a race, but using it as a comparison to all the people who are saying that they want to exterminate this race or that (usually imperium players). Secondly 40K is not through just human eyes if they wanted this they would of made a large scale dungeons and dragons type game where everyone is a human and all the other race's are just there to be shot at. Stop getting confrontational and taking things out of context or not reading things properly. Also if you have nothing constructive to say keep it to yourself. I dont go on Imperium threads and start crapping on your ideas or theorys let people have their fun.
And on the actual topic this thread WAS MEANT FOR I think the TAU although being a young race they have proven they evolve extremely quickly. They were naive at the start thinking they could deal with every race out there but they learned quickly and adapted. It's nice not to have a race that all it wants to do is just kill every other being out there. I think fluff wise instead of reading about a race that basically looks different but in the end is thinking about mass xenocide is boring. Being able to talk, deal and be diplomatic adds a nice new dimension to the game. P.S If anyone responds to this in a nit picky argumentaitive way i will ignore you and assume you have nothing better to do then make arguments over the internet because you have nothing better to do
Tadashi wrote:Imperium of Man - to ensure Mankind's survival and galactic dominance - successful
Chaos - to destroy the Imperium and subdue the galaxy for Chaos - not gonna happen
Tyranids - to consume all life - not gonna happen
Eldar - to survive and restore the ancient Eldar Empire - first goal success, second goal, not gonna happen
Dark Eldar - to continue to pillage and torment the galaxy - successful
Orks - to survive and get a good fight - complete success
Tau - to spread the Greater Good across the galaxy - not gonna happen
Necrons - to stop the Tyranids and ensure Necrontyr dominance - first goal guaranteed success, second goal, not gonna happen
And when I say dominance, I don't mean it becomes the sole race in the galaxy. I meant that it was the race with the biggest influence in the galaxy of 40k.
You are far from correct on chaos's goal. This might be what abbadon wants. However I would say that the gods of chaos have gotten exactly what they want. They plunged humanity from their golden age into an ass backwards emperor worshipping empire that hates everything and is in constant..... wait for it! CHAOS!
Chaos can be marked as a success.
Also, on necrons that is also wrong. Tyranids steer clear of their planets completely and are still THRIVING off of the orks. I'm not sure how their goal of Tyranid stopping is a guaranteed success by any stretch.
While I'm not familiar with necron fluff, I have never heard of their goal being to stop Tyranid. I was under the impression they were just good at it. Being robots and what not. But please if this is new fluff then correct me I have been out of the loop for a few months.
1hadhq wrote:
Tau pretty much got the image of naive, easy to prey upon, newbies who have their heads smashed in because of their dreaded misconception of everyone joining their greater good. After all of the commonly known threats got a shot, you still run with this claim of Tau handling things well? They are rife for a change, and the course GW is willing to take may provide a really different result than you expect.
They are still existing aren't they? They are naive, but they learn and adapt from their mistakes. Like all armies, they have moments that they shine (the Taros Campaign) and places they don't (first contact with Dark Eldar), the bad moments stick out more because of their naivity. But they learn. I don't understand where this notion of dire straights is coming from, can you give me a source?
There is a section of dakka, called news&rumors. Tau got their own thread there....maybe visit it once in a while?.
So I can get rumored and subjective fluff that's rumored to be in the Tau Codex? Wowzers, that sure sounds swell...
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
However, how is DOW 2 evidence of anything seeing as the entire war effort in that region was complicated due to Eldar manipulation, an Ork Waaaagh, a Corrupt politician being a douche and the SM fleet being away(no doubt something done by Kyras).
That's the point. Blood Ravens kicked Tyranid Hive Fleet, Ork WARGHHH, Eldar raides and manage to hold down 4 planet using only 1 ship and 6 squads of infantry together with 1 Dred.
I think that credibility of Tyranid invasion was so lowered in this game.
Was Thule in a dred at the time, I can't recall. I thought he didn't become a dred till the chaos campaign. You shouldn't forget all the countless IG PDF and battle brothers that also are involved with the fighting. They also used 3 ships you can see them when you change planets. They also don't completely destroy the fleet rather they use a poison to separate it from the hive mind.
I might have to re check some of this stuff latter.
Tadashi wrote:Imperium of Man - to ensure Mankind's survival and galactic dominance - successful
Chaos - to destroy the Imperium and subdue the galaxy for Chaos - not gonna happen
Tyranids - to consume all life - not gonna happen
Eldar - to survive and restore the ancient Eldar Empire - first goal success, second goal, not gonna happen
Dark Eldar - to continue to pillage and torment the galaxy - successful
Orks - to survive and get a good fight - complete success
Tau - to spread the Greater Good across the galaxy - not gonna happen
Necrons - to stop the Tyranids and ensure Necrontyr dominance - first goal guaranteed success, second goal, not gonna happen
And when I say dominance, I don't mean it becomes the sole race in the galaxy. I meant that it was the race with the biggest influence in the galaxy of 40k.
You are far from correct on chaos's goal. This might be what abbadon wants. However I would say that the gods of chaos have gotten exactly what they want. They plunged humanity from their golden age into an ass backwards emperor worshipping empire that hates everything and is in constant..... wait for it! CHAOS!
Chaos can be marked as a success.
Also, on necrons that is also wrong. Tyranids steer clear of their planets completely and are still THRIVING off of the orks. I'm not sure how their goal of Tyranid stopping is a guaranteed success by any stretch.
While I'm not familiar with necron fluff, I have never heard of their goal being to stop Tyranid. I was under the impression they were just good at it. Being robots and what not. But please if this is new fluff then correct me I have been out of the loop for a few months.
According to the new Necron Codex, the reason the Silent King came back from his self-imposed exile in the inter-galactic void was because he realized the threat the Tyranid Hive Fleets posed, and so he came back to rally the Necrons to save the galaxy, even if only to ensure Necrontyr dominance. And good point about Chaos, although the gods can't just ignore the desires and wishes of their servants, and the Emperor being incapacitated may backfire on Chaos if the Star Child rebirth theory turns out to be correct.
The Silent king has a goal of fighting the Tyranids, but do the rest of the Necrons? I got the impression each of the Phaerons was more or less doing his own thing.
ironhand45 wrote:Do the Tau have what it takes to defeat the untold horrors of the 40k universe? Will they be able to stop the green tide of orks and the floods of tyranids? Will there be a day when the tau banner flies over all of the universe? Or will the mighty Imperium or the Chaos forces crash down and completely wipe them off the map?
Personnally I think the Tau will get mauled when they become a greater threat.
Yeah, they will. Once they catch the Elder Races' (which by this point includes Mankind, despite what the Eldar and other races say) attention, they'll either be destroyed or put in their place.
Tadashi wrote:Imperium of Man - to ensure Mankind's survival and galactic dominance - successful
Chaos - to destroy the Imperium and subdue the galaxy for Chaos - not gonna happen
Tyranids - to consume all life - not gonna happen
Eldar - to survive and restore the ancient Eldar Empire - first goal success, second goal, not gonna happen
Dark Eldar - to continue to pillage and torment the galaxy - successful
Orks - to survive and get a good fight - complete success
Tau - to spread the Greater Good across the galaxy - not gonna happen
Necrons - to stop the Tyranids and ensure Necrontyr dominance - first goal guaranteed success, second goal, not gonna happen
And when I say dominance, I don't mean it becomes the sole race in the galaxy. I meant that it was the race with the biggest influence in the galaxy of 40k.
You are far from correct on chaos's goal. This might be what abbadon wants. However I would say that the gods of chaos have gotten exactly what they want. They plunged humanity from their golden age into an ass backwards emperor worshipping empire that hates everything and is in constant..... wait for it! CHAOS!
Chaos can be marked as a success.
Also, on necrons that is also wrong. Tyranids steer clear of their planets completely and are still THRIVING off of the orks. I'm not sure how their goal of Tyranid stopping is a guaranteed success by any stretch.
While I'm not familiar with necron fluff, I have never heard of their goal being to stop Tyranid. I was under the impression they were just good at it. Being robots and what not. But please if this is new fluff then correct me I have been out of the loop for a few months.
According to the new Necron Codex, the reason the Silent King came back from his self-imposed exile in the inter-galactic void was because he realized the threat the Tyranid Hive Fleets posed, and so he came back to rally the Necrons to save the galaxy, even if only to ensure Necrontyr dominance. And good point about Chaos, although the gods can't just ignore the desires and wishes of their servants, and the Emperor being incapacitated may backfire on Chaos if the Star Child rebirth theory turns out to be correct.
Ah I see, I know very little about necrons so I apologise. I have also been secluded from all kinds of fluff for several months haha. But I stand firm on my opinion of chaos. They did their thing and now they are feeding off of their cunning plan to throw humanity back into the medieval period of thought.
Brother Coa wrote: That's the point. Blood Ravens kicked Tyranid Hive Fleet, Ork WARGHHH, Eldar raides and manage to hold down 4 planet using only 1 ship and 6 squads of infantry together with 1 Dred. I think that credibility of Tyranid invasion was so lowered in this game.
They had 3 ships actually. The squads you had also fought alongside Imperial Guard stormtroopers and Imperial Guard artillery if took that item with you . All the squads managed to do was poison the main Hive ship, it was the returning main fleet that killed the Nids.
Space Crusader wrote:They built trenches when the capital had two huge walls. Then they abandon the trenches after the first wave. They even suffered heavy casualties before the first wave due to gargoiles. The deathkorps here are not really deathkorps. These have feelings and dont wear their gasmasks. It was only thanks to Kryptmans assistant that the Imperium won. Nerds for the win!
Still listed to be DKoK and what you posted are DKoK tactics of build trenches!
xXSir MontyXx wrote: Ah I see, I know very little about necrons so I apologise. I have also been secluded from all kinds of fluff for several months haha. But I stand firm on my opinion of chaos. They did their thing and now they are feeding off of their cunning plan to throw humanity back into the medieval period of thought.
No, the Chaos gods main goal, if such beings can truly have goals, is to merge the galaxy with the Warp and thus end up killing everyone and themselves.
Tadashi wrote:Yeah, they will. Once they catch the Elder Races' (which by this point includes Mankind, despite what the Eldar and other races say) attention, they'll either be destroyed or put in their place.
HURR FANBOI! HURR! Grow up Tadashi. The Tau already have the Imperiums attention and when the Tau become big enough the IMperium will be to weak to stop them.
Tadashi wrote:Yeah, they will. Once they catch the Elder Races' (which by this point includes Mankind, despite what the Eldar and other races say) attention, they'll either be destroyed or put in their place.
HURR FANBOI! HURR! Grow up Tadashi. The Tau already have the Imperiums attention and when the Tau become big enough the IMperium will be to weak to stop them.
BEHOLD! THE TAU WILL RULE THE GALAXY! thread. Yeah, no. As far as the Imperium is concerned, the Tau are just a relatively minor frontier threat. Not worth a Sabbat Worlds Crusade-type operation. We have more immediate concerns such as the 13th Black Crusade and Hive Fleet Leviathan. When the Tau become a galaxy-level threat, it's not just the Imperium. Even Chaos will be drawn to the Tau. Greater Good has a lot of similarities to the Imperial Truth, so the gods won't be pleased to see you rise. If the Imperium falls, I'll be more than willing to join Chaos (or in case of an Imperial Crusade) and kick the Tau's collectivist ass.
Space Crusader wrote:... when the Tau become big enough the IMperium will be to weak to stop them.
Basically your implying once the Tau Empire is big enough you'll replace the Imperium as the dominant galactic power and we can't do anything about it. Well, no matter. Even if you do replace the Imperium, I'll be a Chaos Champion leading daemons and chaos worshippers to sacrifice the worthless followers of the Greater Good to the Powers of Chaos.
Yeaaah, obviously we can't fight everyone at the same time, so we have to prioritize out attention. Minor frontier threats don't need that much attention. Not to mention that if the Imperium ever expands, entire alien races are expunged and forgotten. And even a small Astartes Crusade has enough strength to bust Tau heads. The Nimbosa Crusade certainly seems to have given the Tau a bloody nose. And eventually you will end up too deep in Imperial space where we have the leisure of fighting on home territory.
To be honest, is the imperium giving as much attention to the Tau sector of space? No. Will they pay for it? Maybe a little, but the loss to the imperium will not be much of consequence and they know this. Compared to a large or waaahgh! Or ANY of the major hove fleet incursions the loss would barely be noticed.
I would say the Tau will gain quite a big foothold into Imperium space. And force the imperium to pay attention. Once they have this attention the Tau advance will come to an abrupt stop. Then will be slowly pushed back, providing the imperium only uses standard ig defensive tactics. And not a massive crusade of space marines, which to me sounds plausible seeing as how the imperium could view the situation as "you have been asking for this for a long time now....".
I think one of the things we have to look at is the fading and possible failure of the Astronomicon. If 6th edition advances the story line, we may see no Astronomicon of very little of it outside of the Segmentum Solar. That would suddenly place the Imperium at a disadvantage to the Tau in terms of FTL travel.
That is one of the possible points I see for significant Tau expansion. Of course it has the side effect of giving Imperium bigger things to worry about than the Tau.
To be honest, looking at the whole picture I see the Tau as a potential eventual successor to the Imperium much the way the Imperium was the eventual successor to the Eldar. In both cases the destruction of the older empire will come from within rather than without.
xXSir MontyXx wrote:To be honest, is the imperium giving as much attention to the Tau sector of space? No. Will they pay for it? Maybe a little, but the loss to the imperium will not be much of consequence and they know this. Compared to a large or waaahgh! Or ANY of the major hove fleet incursions the loss would barely be noticed.
I would say the Tau will gain quite a big foothold into Imperium space. And force the imperium to pay attention. Once they have this attention the Tau advance will come to an abrupt stop. Then will be slowly pushed back, providing the imperium only uses standard ig defensive tactics. And not a massive crusade of space marines, which to me sounds plausible seeing as how the imperium could view the situation as "you have been asking for this for a long time now....".
Quite true, I would love to see Tau to try to take down Fortress world like Cadia. Tau best chance now is to stay small and take poorly defended worlds as they can. The moment they draw to much attention to themselves they will be finished.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Space Crusader wrote:Does it not say that the Tau defeated the Imperial NImbosa crusade? It says so in my codex.
"In the Nimbosa Crusade, the Black Templars and Imperial Fists fought alongside other Space Marines Chapters to reclaim the world of Nimbosa from the Tau after the third sphere expansion. The initial battles with the Tau took place in space aboard the orbitals the aliens had locked in geo-stationary orbit around Nimbosa. The Black Templars' Strike Cruiser Dorn's Wrath used its speed to evade the incoming fire and close to attack range. Using boarding torpedoes and Thunderhawk gunships it penetrated the hull of the target, designated Orbital Primus, and allowed the household of Castellan Folkert to board. The Tau Fire Warriors stationed abourd Orbital Primus turned the corridors of the space station into killing grounds with a warren of deadly ambushes, but the Black Templar force countered this by splitting up into small squads and attacked the defenders from multiple directions, using grenades and chainswords to smash their way through the bulkheads. This enabled them to outflank the defending Tau forces, who were pitiful at close combat, and crush the resistance. After fighting their way through to the gunnery controls of the orbital, the Marines were able to turn the guns of the station on the other orbitals. This, combined with the assaults of the Imperial Navy, was too much for the remaining orbitals to withstand. Meanwhile, the Ultramarines first company smashed into the defending Tau garrison, eliminating the Tau's anti air turrets and making short work of the Tau leaders. The campaign ended with the successful recapture of Nimbosa and the destruction of the entire Tau garrison."
Nimbosa was a part of the so called Second Sphere Expansion and while the Imperium did reclaim that world, there are 6 other noted Sept Worlds the Tau claimed during the same expansion phase.
So the Tau expanded into at least 7 Imperial worlds and the Imperium took 1 of them back.
At that sort of ratio the Tau will probably be able to gobble up a large portion of the Ultima Segmentum. Especially when the Astronomicon dims enough that long range Warp Travel becomes almost impossible in the area.
Jefffar wrote:Nimbosa was a part of the so called Second Sphere Expansion and while the Imperium did reclaim that world, there are 6 other noted Sept Worlds the Tau claimed during the same expansion phase.
So the Tau expanded into at least 7 Imperial worlds and the Imperium took 1 of them back.
At that sort of ratio the Tau will probably be able to gobble up a large portion of the Ultima Segmentum. Especially when the Astronomicon dims enough that long range Warp Travel becomes almost impossible in the area.
I wonder what happened to nimbrosa after the third expansion. assuming they are expanding the same direction, that would put nimprosa in space surrounded bu tau. Then again I doubt there is much left on the planet, seeing as the tau killed everyone.
There is nothing definite about the direction of the Third Expansion other than it headed towards Imperial space, which, as is pointed out repeatedly, is a big place.
Nimbosa isn't specifically mentioned.
Yes, the purging of Nimbosa was a regrettable incident which Brightsword was apparently censured for. I believe this censure contributed to Farsight's decision to set his own path for his followers and turn his back on the concept of co-operation with other races.
Jefffar wrote:Nimbosa was a part of the so called Second Sphere Expansion and while the Imperium did reclaim that world, there are 6 other noted Sept Worlds the Tau claimed during the same expansion phase.
So the Tau expanded into at least 7 Imperial worlds and the Imperium took 1 of them back.
At that sort of ratio the Tau will probably be able to gobble up a large portion of the Ultima Segmentum. Especially when the Astronomicon dims enough that long range Warp Travel becomes almost impossible in the area.
First:
They didn't take 7 Imperial Worlds, it is only said that they settled 7 worlds. There is no mention of Imperial worlds beside Nimbosa.
Those 7 worlds are: T'olku, Vash'ya, Tash'var, Elsy'eir, Ke'lshan, N'dras and Au'taal. Those are all colonies not Sept worlds.
Second:
You see how small Tau empire is when compared toward Ultima Segmentum? It's like comparing one small Earth island with the whole Pacific ocean. Even now they need a week to get from one end to their empire to another, how the hell are they going to "gobble up a large portion of the Ultima Segmentum" when their FTL suck big time? ( and please don't start with Human psykers or Demiurg - Etherials banned all research toward that after Medusa V ).
Third:
Their Third phase of expansion is over. It started at Zeist, Kronus and Kaurava. And Tau had been beaten back big time by Imperials, making temporary halt to Tau expansion plans.
The only planet they were able to took was Taros, and that campaign was stupid as blondes.
And to add that Farsight rebeled against Etherial and put his world at Democles. If Tau want to invade the Imperium it has first to go trough there and big Farsight won't let them.
nomotog wrote:I don't think they told us how the third phase ended.
"The Third Phase Expansion was convened on 997.M41 on the word of Aun'va. Commander Shadowsun was placed in command, and has secured at least two new septs for the Tau Empire. During the Zeist Campaign of 999.M41, Space Marines forces counterattacked against the expanding Third Sphere, drawing the Third Sphere to a, perhaps temporary, halt. "
This sum it up, with Kronus and Kaurava also beloning to Third phase expansion. Zeist being the main Tau advance. They also reclaimed all worlds that Tau took, except Taros.
nomotog wrote:I don't think they told us how the third phase ended.
"The Third Phase Expansion was convened on 997.M41 on the word of Aun'va. Commander Shadowsun was placed in command, and has secured at least two new septs for the Tau Empire. During the Zeist Campaign of 999.M41, Space Marines forces counterattacked against the expanding Third Sphere, drawing the Third Sphere to a, perhaps temporary, halt. "
This sum it up, with Kronus and Kaurava also beloning to Third phase expansion. Zeist being the main Tau advance.
They also reclaimed all worlds that Tau took, except Taros.
The tau expand into areas besides the IoM too. We won't get a full brake down till the next tau codex.
First, the Tau Codex and the map you posted identifies those as Sept Worlds.
Second, I didn't say this would happen overnight. It may take thousands of years before this starts to occur, plenty of time for the Tau to improve their FTL technology or the Ethereals to reconsider their actions (unlike the High Lords of Terra the Ethereals don't have problems changing public policy as circumstances change). Most of the worlds I am speaking off will have already been cut off from the Imperium as the light of the Astronomicon fades and will be desperate for a new protector who can stand up to Orks, Tyranids and the like.
Third, the Third Phase was actually successful taking a number of human and Ork worlds according to the Codex. 2 of these new Sept Worlds (Ksi'm'yen and Fi'rios) push around the Northern Flank of the Farsight Enclaves ensuring direct access to the Imperium without having to deal with Farshight. But again looking at the map you posted we see a Third Sphere expansion path projected out through the Farsight Enclaves, so apparently Farsight isn't even a barrier when his territory must be crossed.
Jefffar wrote:First, the Tau Codex and the map you posted identifies those as Sept Worlds.
MINOR Sept worlds. Even your codex state that they are MINOR colonies.
Second, I didn't say this would happen overnight. It may take thousands of years before this starts to occur, plenty of time for the Tau to improve their FTL technology or the Ethereals to reconsider their actions (unlike the High Lords of Terra the Ethereals don't have problems changing public policy as circumstances change). Most of the worlds I am speaking off will have already been cut off from the Imperium as the light of the Astronomicon fades and will be desperate for a new protector who can stand up to Orks, Tyranids and the like.
You really think that Tau will last that long? And as I said: more advanced FTL then the Tau currently have does not exist, Humans had that kind of tech for centuries before they developed Warp Drives, and in terms of technology the Tau are like the Orks toward Necrons.. Only other way trough that is Warp or Webway, both out of Tau hands because they lack Psykers and protection against Daemons. And great number of Imperial worlds are already cut off from the Astronomicon and they are surviving and receiving help ( like Ultramar who is beyond the Astronomicon).
Third, the Third Phase was actually successful taking a number of human and Ork worlds according to the Codex. 2 of these new Sept Worlds (Ksi'm'yen and Fi'rios) push around the Northern Flank of the Farsight Enclaves ensuring direct access to the Imperium without having to deal with Farshight. But again looking at the map you posted we see a Third Sphere expansion path projected out through the Farsight Enclaves, so apparently Farsight isn't even a barrier when his territory must be crossed.
You took only 3 worlds, 2 of them you just settled, with your main army defeated with most of your troops destroyed. How is that success?
Fluff fights are always silly. GW's just going to rewrite the fluff in the next codex and before you know it Tau are close combat gods that go around bro-fisting Calgar and peeing on tomb-worlds for fun. Shadowsun'll probably be roaming the IoM assasinating primarchs while the space pope convinces hive minds of the greater good. /hyperbole
Seriously, GW painted themselves into a corner by creating a stagnate point in time that will never advance. The only tool they have left to them to make anything remotely dynamic, storywise, is to use the big retcon brush and splatter ink everywhere things don't fit.
Still, it's funny to see people get so worked up over their fictional universe that doesn't even make sense. GW can't even keep timelines straight much less story arcs.
He didn't ask or wait for a replacement, that's how. He just turned and left. And what happened to Space Crusader's posts, they turned red all of a sudden.
handful : how many in a handful (depends on size of hands I guess and size of thingies in hands )
cluster : how many in a cluster...
All of these terms are pulled directly from the Tau codex pg: 15 and third sphere expansion description.
so based on those descripters how can anyone produce accurate numbers of worlds from that source.
And the Nimbosa campaign other than mentioning nimbosa precisely does not say any numbers aswell, unless the black templar codex is more precise, (and I will check that today)
Yeah fluff fights are muy stupidio but so is this thread...
Tadashi wrote:He didn't ask or wait for a replacement, that's how. He just turned and left. And what happened to Space Crusader's posts, they turned red all of a sudden.
What would happen if Farsight got near an etheral?
His posts probably were of poor taste and quality, and thus were edited.
Brother Coa, Ultramar is still within range of the Astronomicon (the line along the eastern border of the Imperium on the galactic map) for the time being unless you have an alternate source to cite that indicates they aren't.
Malroke wrote:1hadhq stop spitting your dummy out..
What?
Malroke wrote: all the people who are saying that they want to exterminate this race or that (usually imperium players).
See thats the problem. Its always the other guys fault. Don't you spot the flaw in this theory?
Malroke wrote:Stop getting confrontational and taking things out of context or not reading things properly.
This wasn't confrontational.
Context was kept, just not so easy to find so I wonder why I should be the one not reading things properly ...
Malroke wrote:Also if you have nothing constructive to say keep it to yourself.
Nice. Maybe try it for yourself.
Malroke wrote:Being able to talk, deal and be diplomatic adds a nice new dimension to the game.
Everyone except nids talks, deals and negotiates. Nothing added there. The civil life is just unimportant in 40k fluff since its focus is on war.
Malroke wrote: If anyone responds to this in a nit picky argumentaitive way i will ignore you and assume you have nothing better to do then make arguments over the internet because you have nothing better to do
Cool. Can I have my name added to your ignore list, now please?
KplKeegan wrote:So I can get rumored and subjective fluff that's rumored to be in the Tau Codex? Wowzers, that sure sounds swell...
Not only that. You also get more fluff than chaos legions, eldar, etc in 40k codices and expansions. Tau are really not the forgotten faction in 40k. They are part of almost every fluff release, have a few bitz in every codex. Abby could file complaints, Tau surely shouldn't.
Jefffar wrote:Brother Coa, Ultramar is still within range of the Astronomicon (the line along the eastern border of the Imperium on the galactic map) for the time being unless you have an alternate source to cite that indicates they aren't.
It is not, range of astronomicon is 50.000 light years. Ultramar is on the other side of the galaxy, a little over 50.000 light years.
See 40k Star Map for this.
I did. There is a line on that map. To the west (left) of that line is within range of the Astronomicon. To the east (right) of that line is out of the range of the Astronomicon.
Ultramar is to the West of that line, if only slightly. Should the Astronomicon contract by say 5%, they will likely be outside it's light and helpless.
Just be glad the full might of the Tau hasn't been brought down on the IoM yet.
We already know the largest attempt at destroying the Tau Empire was larger than any conflict to date and that the IoM lost it, aka The Iron Hammer Campaign.
We know that it resulted in the report sent by Cadians, after Hive Fleet Gorgon ravaged the Tau. We also know that the full might of the Tau war machine must be far stronger than previously thought, if they could survive a Nid fleet then turn right around and wipe out the largest incursion into their empire to date. Larger than the Zeist Campaign, Damocles Gulf, Nimbosa, Taros, anything. Meaning it must of had over 13 Space Marine Chapters, 2 Legions of Titans, a far larger Naval presence and more than 15 IG regiments in order for it to be far larger than anything to date. Soak that in and understand that unless GW made the Tau get wiped out in their next Codex, the IHC was a loss for the IoM.
So keep using really bad analogies of oceans to explain why the Tau pantsing the face off the Eastern fringe are actually losing.
At the end of the Hive Fleet Gorgon entry in the Nid dex, it mentions how the Cadians deemed the Tau a minor threat then gave a report of the battle they had fought in to their higher command. The result would be the Imperium waging the largest conflict to date against the Tau. The story concludes it being a tale for another time.
Here is the entry:
"This viewpoint, and the wilfully misinterpreted conclusions that fed it, was the chief perticipating factor in the commencement of the Iron Hammer campaign, which soon escalated into the greatest confrontation yet seen between the Imperium of man and the Tau Empire. But thats another story....."
I'd bet we will see it mentioned in the Tau 5th Edition Codex.
The interesting fact being that the conflict is larger than any to date, and there have been some fairly large conflicts so far. The Zeist campaign being large enough that Calgar issued a call for all Space Marines in proximity report for the war. So unless they retcon Tau, chalk this up to another loss for the IoM.
Just be glad the full might of the Tau hasn't been brought down on the IoM yet.
We already know the largest attempt at destroying the Tau Empire was larger than any conflict to date and that the IoM lost it, aka The Iron Hammer Campaign.
We know that it resulted in the report sent by Cadians, after Hive Fleet Gorgon ravaged the Tau. We also know that the full might of the Tau war machine must be far stronger than previously thought, if they could survive a Nid fleet then turn right around and wipe out the largest incursion into their empire to date. Larger than the Zeist Campaign, Damocles Gulf, Nimbosa, Taros, anything. Meaning it must of had over 13 Space Marine Chapters, 2 Legions of Titans, a far larger Naval presence and more than 15 IG regiments in order for it to be far larger than anything to date. Soak that in and understand that unless GW made the Tau get wiped out in their next Codex, the IHC was a loss for the IoM.
So keep using really bad analogies of oceans to explain why the Tau pantsing the face off the Eastern fringe are actually losing.
Tau > Imperial Apes
Where is now Kroothawk to see were did i get the idea that Tau could bet the Imperium. And they call me a troll
The tau will never win. Not because they're bad, but because the greatest power in the universe resides in the continued survival of the Imperium. Not the Emperor, but the status quo!
Not only that, but in the closed thread "Tau Empire vs. Imperium", I believe, one particular Trollpie didn't believe that there were fanboys as rabid as BeefCake Soup (this is not an insult, "rabid" is merely a descriptor referencing the level of love). Ha, this is a thread to mark for future ammunition.
Also, I believe that the Tau Empire will survive and prosper, but not that it could beat the Imperium of man in its current state.
Brother Coa wrote:Where is now Kroothawk to see were did i get the idea that Tau could bet the Imperium.
And they call me a troll
He is right behind you and only calls you a troll when you say ALL Tau players think the Tau Empire can beat the IoM any day. Or when you call all Tau players hateworthy. Or say that the Tau Empire is good for nothing and should be culled instantly for incompetence. Or if you deliberately make false quotes from the Codex. Or ...
Kroothawk wrote:
He is right in front of you and only calls you a troll when you say ALL Tau players think the Tau Empire can beat the IoM any day. Or when you call all Tau players hateworthy. Or say that the Tau Empire is good for nothing and should be culled instantly for incompetence. Or if you deliberately make false quotes from the Codex.
Oh and I forgotten, you are a Tau fanboy to who makes use of the situation and strike whenever appointed. Not once had I presented false claim from codex or twisted it to my will. For that is a heresy that is punishable by death. I simply claim in all my posts that Tau have no chance against Imperium's war machine ( I am talking about thousands of Imperial Guard Regiments and at least 20 - 50 Space Marine Chapters. A true Imperial Crusade Force ), while you and few others always trying twist that into Tau favor calling us fanboys.
I know you are trying to defend your faction but face it - you can't win that kind of war. And using Taros or Democles or Nimbosa is not proving anything but Tau managing to take advantage of small engagements.
And this comment of yours proves me right at the end - you are the biggest troll of them all, defending your claims by calling other people trolls and their use of codex twisted to their own agenda.
CpatTom wrote:
Most of the arguments on this thread are invalid.
Except these: Tau will never take over the entire universe, it's to big. They will never be able to stop all the Orks and Tyranids, evne more advanced and ferocious races failed at that. Their banner will never "fly over all of the UNIVERSE", as for Imperium and Chaos destroying them we shall see when GW advance the timeline.
Now tell me: what is trolling in this comment and what is going against the established fluff?
I think the Tau as a civilization can expand greatly. Look at what they already accomplished. Combined with all the auxillary races the Tau recruit. Not to mention how fast the Tau advance technologically, they're a fraction as old as the IoM and twice as advanced.
I'm not saying the Tau would steamroll the entire galaxy, nor would i say they would dominate it. But the Tau Could definitly do some serious damage as well as take some.
I feel that GW put the Tau in a bad position. Not that it keeps me up at night or anything. However they are to small to do any rel damage to anyone. Now the Eldar are also small but they are always on the move and making temporary alliances to help themselves out. The Tau though.... they are just as stagnant as the entire 40k story.
Brother Coa wrote:
Except these: Tau will never take over the entire universe, it's to big. They will never be able to stop all the Orks and Tyranids, evne more advanced and ferocious races failed at that. Their banner will never "fly over all of the UNIVERSE", as for Imperium and Chaos destroying them we shall see when GW advance the timeline.
Now tell me: what is trolling in this comment and what is going against the established fluff?
Fallacy of Induction: C will fail because A and B did before it.
Its not trolling, its just based off faulty logic.
"when GW advance the timeline": Don't hold your breathe.
CpatTom wrote:
Fallacy of Induction: C will fail because A and B did before it.
Its not trolling, its just based off faulty logic.
So your "righteous logic" is that Tau will one day control the entire universe?
I don't see it happening, but yet again, Tau fan is a Tau fan...
Scarecrow fallacy (or straw-man). My position never stated that the C (Tau, as has been assumed) would succeed because and A and B had failed. It simply said that pointing to A and B as reasons why C would fail is faulty logic. Assuming my position is that the Tau would one day win is where you create the Scarecrow.
The Crusader wrote:Ultimately, the Tau won't be able to hold off a large scale assault be any of the races that can actually launch an assault of the required size.
Imperium, Tyranids, Orks and 'Crons would win through attrition
Chaos MAY win through their inherent unpredictability
DE could feasibly win with Guerilla warfare DE style: (poof) SLICE(poof)
Well, the Tau are in fact able to deal with fairly large scale assaults. The Achilus Crusade has at least 30 billion groundpersonal with one of it's three mainfronts devoted to a single, large ( and well armed )
Tausept ( keep in mind that a sept doesn't necessarily mean just one planet, it includes the septworld itself + the various other/allied planets under the septworld's control ). This front is currently stagnant.
Now compare that with the Sabbat Worlds crusade, which consisted of merely a billion people in all military branches.
While there is no doubt that the Imperium of Man theoreticaly has both the manpower and the technology to destroy the Tau Empire it is also hard to imagine that the sectors of the Eastern Fringe
are currently able and willing to organise and supply a sufficiently large crusade ( like the Achilus Crusade, perhaps even somewhat larger if we assume that the Tau Empire expanded in size and modernised it's navy in the ca 150 years between the Achilus crusade and our new, theoretical crusade ) to combat a relatively minor ( the Tau conquered/ anexed at most a few dozen Imperial worlds within their entire existence while Leviathan has the potential to devoure thousands of worlds; the Skarus Orks threaten an entire sector and possibly even more and the Despoiler, if victorious, could engulf the entire Segmentum in anarchy ) threat.
CpatTom wrote:
Scarecrow fallacy (or straw-man). My position never stated that the C (Tau, as has been assumed) would succeed because and A and B had failed. It simply said that pointing to A and B as reasons why C would fail is faulty logic. Assuming my position is that the Tau would one day win is where you create the Scarecrow.
If this was "Battlestar Glactica" I would agree But seeing that the enemy is a thing that Eldar and Humans at their highest moment couldn't wipe out leave very little hope for Tau.
So A + B should = C as well
BrainDeleted wrote:
The Tau players feel victimized and the IoM players get way too defensive and genocidal...Perfect.
Really?
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
“Just be glad the full might of the Tau hasn't been brought down on the IoM yet. “
“Tau > Imperial Apes”
“However, I doubt there is any other force out there rocking Railguns and Pulse Rifles pantsing Regiments and Crusades wholesale....”
"Also, Nimbosa wasn't a defeat. They massacred every imperial down to the last, then massacred every imperial sent down to the last."
"Chaos will never defeat the Tau Empire. Tau don't fall to the Gods of the Warp. Once the Empire brings to bear it's full military might against the pathetic stone throwing apes of the Imperium, they will bring a million Railguns to bear on anything that dares leave the warp. All 4 Gods sitting in a pig pen of warp filth as the smallest, most powerful, technologically advanced Empire ever to exist wipes out the threat of corruption by merely being incorruptible. "
"Daemons may be scary to the slow minded descendants of apes, that sleep a 1/3 of their life away while having nightmares about the horrors of the warp and take hours to understand a fear that takes Tau seconds to solve. The Warp may be a Daemons playground, but in realspace they are target practice for hammerheads. Plasma is a joke when a shield drone can shrug it off and compared to the ever evolving might of Railgun technology, we may aswell talk about how scary bayonets are. The Imperium of Man may fear Daemons... But so long as the Tau Empire stands, Daemons have not won."
"The Tau Empire doesn't worry about worthless warp dogs. The seat of power in the Empire will never be contested."
"The war between them and Chaos will come someday. When that day comes, the Tau will show the Imperium how you deal with a power hungry space chimp on warp roids... A rail shot to it's miserable face for the greater good."
"Barring Necrons full technological capacity, the Tau simply dominate the battlefield with superior Technology."
"As for the Shield Drones, they can take even the most punishing hit a Daemon can throw."
"Because if they ever achieve that fast of travel, their "tiny" Empire is going to blitz through an entire galaxy ripe for the taking. The sheer amount of planets that would simply surrender to better lifestyles would set the galaxy up for new rulers."
"Farsight isn't "dealing" with an Ork incursion, he is exterminating his way beyond sanctioned borders. That 2:1 odds are somehow supposed to kill a race that can fight against 20:1 odds? Farsight faced a planetary WAAAAGH for months before he evacutated the last of his FWs. Only to return and crush the forces that sieged him. "
"Daemons have an invuln. Tau have armor and invulns. Break the invuln on a daemon it dies or is wounded. Break the invuln on a Tau and it's flying frisbee dies."
"The Tau are the one enemy in the galaxy capable of crudding on Titans with superior Manta firepower, melting terminators with battlesuits and destroying guard with pulse rifle armed FWs."
"Sadly, the Imperium is comprised of slow thinking chimps with lasguns in comparison to them. Outwitted at every turn and put to shame in doctrines of warfare."
"Their most standard Tau infantry rifle, is capable of popping Rhinos."
"Had it been the full weight of the Tau Empire it would of been over in days for the Imperials. "
"The guard is garbage in every capacity to the Tau. "
"A Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield while a guardsman has to prey his lasgun doesn't just tickle an ork boy."
"Just don't be suprised when that little Empire everyone picks on wipes out a massive force sent to kill them and then goes from being 1% to 5 or 10% of your precious decaying Imperium."
". A team of broadsides can easily poke holes in a baneblade. A couple teams and you will have Baneblades popping wholesale. And what it takes to make a Baneblade vs a couple infantry in a battlesuit doesn't add up well for the Baneblade."
"The Tau outmatch the Imperium in this department hands down on the battlefield. The Tau can pop Land Raiders, Baneblades and Titans. These are all top tier weapons among the Imperium."
"Kroot, which have better weapons than Guard."
"Even then, one Tau Soldier in an XV88 Battlesuit can put the hurt on a Titan."
"I won't even get into how rediculous Battlesuit technology is. Suffice to say, they have weapons that turn Terminator Armor into piles of goo."
"I wish Tau could do something on a scale to fight the Crons."
"The Tau understand the concept of traveling in the warp"
"While the most basic grunt is carrying a weapon that outranges and out damages a Space Marines bolter."
"Hive Fleet Gorgon was adapting to Tau weaponry via hardened carapaces. If a Pulse Rifle was having little effect a bolter would have little to no effect."
"Lascannons are fine, for garbage."
"The mighty Warships of the BT would succumb under the weight of millions of remoras and the Tau fleets."
"Can the Imperium destroy the Tau Empire? No."
"When the day comes that the Tau need to create technology to make longer, faster jumps, rest assured, the Tau will create it, and it will most likely be yet again, superior to its Imperium technological counterpart. "
"The Tau Empire is capable of mobilizing every single adult into state service."
"a few battalions of Tau fought and defeated Regiments, Titan Legions, Astartes, etc."
"Tau Fire Cast outnumber Imperial Guard"
"Luxembourg, a small and tiny nation, commands the support of some of the most powerful nations on Earth. Not only that, but they are also backed by a super economy rivaling the U.S. and China"
"Tau are a more productive race than humanity. They sleep less, work more, live to fufill a role in a caste driven society that strives toward progress. If ever a race was destined to create a new form of travel that sets a benchmark it will be the Tau."
His knowledge about the Imperium:
“Termis can be killed by lasguns and guardsmen in close combat.“
"Elite and Imperial Guard is funny."
"When the Imperium has ANYTHING on par with tech like Rail Rifles or Eclipse Shield Gens or hell even Battlesuits you can talk superior tech... Until then, about the only thing better is IoMs FTL method."
"If Horus, the second most powerful human in all of existance could fall to Chaos, I'm not sure how a GK couldn't. "
'The IG is a messy group of bad tactics thrown into limitless numbers, where a bayonet charge can feasibly work, because you have millions upon millions to throw at an objective."
"Believe me I'm a fanboy.A Tau invasion of Terra would be a negotiation, not a war."
Well, in all fairness, you did come into a Tau thread and start a fight, you know you did. You could have just ignored the Tau threads but you like to argue, you know you do.
Brother Coa wrote:If this was "Battlestar Glactica" I would agree But seeing that the enemy is a thing that Eldar and Humans at their highest moment couldn't wipe out leave very little hope for Tau.
So A + B should = C as well
Begging the question/induction Fallacy: Assuming that the Human and Eldar can't do it is a false premise used to justify the A+B=C. Human + Eldar couldn't do it proves it is impossible (the false assumption) (although, neither is extinct, so it is entirely within the realm of possibility that it might occur) so the Tau cannot do it either.
Thats right, Human's still have a chance to "win" (IoM in particular). I don't have a problem saying that. Can you say that the Tau have a chance to win?
The only way Tau will rule the universe is if every one else kills each other leaving only Tau. And I don't think that's going to happen, because every one knows Sphess Muhreenz will always emerge victorious in the end, and nothing can stop The EMPRAH and blah blah blah.....
Iron Hammer never mentioned it was bigger than any Imperial campaign thus far. It only mentioned it was larger than any Tau-Imperial conflict thus far...closer to Armageddon rather than the Sabbat World Crusade.
Not really sure I consider people a jerk for not liking a race. That's kinda what warhammer is about. Having a favoured race you spend money on and another you would never spend a cent on and wanting them to suffer endlessly in the fluff. There's obviously people that hate Tyranid and imperial guard, I ain't gonna get all butt hurt about it haha.
Also, this is the internet. If I type something down as sarcasm or as a joke it is alot harder to tell if that's what my intent is. So I'm sure when it seems that someone is offended they really aren't. No reason to shut down threads and the like cuz it seems like somebody is gonna cry.
CpatTom wrote:
Thats right, Human's still have a chance to "win" (IoM in particular). I don't have a problem saying that. Can you say that the Tau have a chance to win?
Winning being complete control of the galaxy.
Tau would have a chance if you give them several thousand more years. They need bigger population, larger army and better FTL to conquer the good portion of the galaxy. Then they would have chance to win, it all depends on how writers will write fluff.
@nomtog That picture is so sweet
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xXSir MontyXx wrote:Not really sure I consider people a jerk for not liking a race. That's kinda what warhammer is about. Having a favoured race you spend money on and another you would never spend a cent on and wanting them to suffer endlessly in the fluff. There's obviously people that hate Tyranid and imperial guard, I ain't gonna get all butt hurt about it haha.
Also, this is the internet. If I type something down as sarcasm or as a joke it is alot harder to tell if that's what my intent is. So I'm sure when it seems that someone is offended they really aren't. No reason to shut down threads and the like cuz it seems like somebody is gonna cry.
This. I have two friends who also play 40k. One is hating Eldar for being arrogant and the other is hating Chaos. I don't insult them around, that's their opinion and that's ok.
KingDeath wrote: Well, the Tau are in fact able to deal with fairly large scale assaults. The Achilus Crusade has at least 30 billion groundpersonal with one of it's three mainfronts devoted to a single, large ( and well armed ) Tausept ( keep in mind that a sept doesn't necessarily mean just one planet, it includes the septworld itself + the various other/allied planets under the septworld's control ). This front is currently stagnant. Now compare that with the Sabbat Worlds crusade, which consisted of merely a billion people in all military branches.
While there is no doubt that the Imperium of Man theoreticaly has both the manpower and the technology to destroy the Tau Empire it is also hard to imagine that the sectors of the Eastern Fringe are currently able and willing to organise and supply a sufficiently large crusade ( like the Achilus Crusade, perhaps even somewhat larger if we assume that the Tau Empire expanded in size and modernised it's navy in the ca 150 years between the Achilus crusade and our new, theoretical crusade ) to combat a relatively minor ( the Tau conquered/ anexed at most a few dozen Imperial worlds within their entire existence while Leviathan has the potential to devoure thousands of worlds; the Skarus Orks threaten an entire sector and possibly even more and the Despoiler, if victorious, could engulf the entire Segmentum in anarchy ) threat.
1] From where did you get the 30 billion number for Imperial personnel(I assume you mean the Imperial Guard)? The only actual number ever stated for the Achilus Crusade is an estimate of 6 Billion Imperial Guard for the entire Crusade.
2] As far as I know The Imperium's offensive has become stagnant due to the beating its taking at the hands of Chaos, Tyranids and rebels As per my fellow 40k SBer's:
Deadguy2001;6910670 wrote:That's just a tad bit disingenuous. The Tau are engaging a tiny fraction of the Crusade forces, the vast majority of whom are busy being eaten by Tyranids.
The impression I got from the rulebook was that the Imperial forces in the Canis salient were outnumbered by the Tau.
Deadguy2001;6911163 wrote:Anyways, Satnav and I have discussed this in PM, and here are the full quotes.
What actually happened on page 16.
The assaults on Rheelas, Argoth, and Kaggeran (whichwould later become collectively known as the “Quarantined Worlds”) were swift and decisive. On the mining world Rheelas only minor skirmishes marred what otherwise would have been the triumphant return of the Imperium. Withinhours of the fleet darkening Rheelas’ sky, Adeptus Astartes had taken the Granite Spire of Rhee and placed the world’s governor and his staff under their ‘protection’. It was a similarstory on Argoth and Kaggeran, a few rebels making feeblestands against regiments of guardsmen and planetary leaders quickly bowing to Imperial rule.
pg 17 wrote:As a result, Achilus wasted little timesetting up garrisons on all three worlds, but moved the bulkof his troops to more pressing warzones.
The full version of your page 101 quote.
pg 101 wrote:Up until the time of Achilus’ death, the region nowcodified the Canis Salient was the main warzone in the Crusade,huge army groups and massed fleets intent upon reclaiming thoseworlds the Tau had usurped. Achilus was frustrated in his effortsby the unanticipated level of ‘native’ resistance to the Crusade,and he was forced to divert forces from the main advance topacify once-loyal worlds that should, by all rights, have greetedhim as a saviour and added their efforts to the Crusade. With the servants of the Ruinous Powers fomenting war and anarchyin the heart of the Reach, Achilus was unable to bring the fullweight of his fleet to bear on the Tau stronghold worlds, and thewar degenerated into a fruitless, bloody meat grinder
pg 103 wrote:Some whisper that it was Ebongrave’s hubris in covetingcommand of the Acheros Salient that caused Tetrarchus to appoint him to lead one of the two lesser Salients. Perhaps Tetrarchus sought to contain Ebongrave’s ambitions whilst taking full advantage of his prodigious abilities, perceiving inthe Lord Commander a potential rival best kept on a short leash. Whatever the truth, Ebongrave was given command of the Canis Salient. He fully intended to prove himself the better of the three Lord Commanders, and the xenos-pyres of the Greyhell Front would bear witness to his glory
So you really can't use the Jericho Reach as evidence for Tau withstanding anything seeing as the Imperium is battling Chaos and Nids as well as the Tau at the same time.
agnosto wrote:Well, in all fairness, you did come into a Tau thread and start a fight, you know you did. You could have just ignored the Tau threads but you like to argue, you know you do.
To be fair, he started half of the "Tau suck! Discuss!" threads
agnosto wrote:Well, in all fairness, you did come into a Tau thread and start a fight, you know you did. You could have just ignored the Tau threads but you like to argue, you know you do.
To be fair, he started half of the "Tau suck! Discuss!" threads
Because of the comments that were posted by certain individuals. Not all of them were Tau suck, some of them was to learn something
agnosto wrote:Well, in all fairness, you did come into a Tau thread and start a fight, you know you did. You could have just ignored the Tau threads but you like to argue, you know you do.
To be fair, he started half of the "Tau suck! Discuss!" threads
Because of the comments that were posted by certain individuals. Not all of them were Tau suck, some of them was to learn something
I have seen these, and again the intent of typed words was mistaken by Tau individuals.
Not that I care, I love the fluff debates and the stories of Tyranid walking through pulse rounds like a light snow.
Tadashi wrote:Iron Hammer never mentioned it was bigger than any Imperial campaign thus far. It only mentioned it was larger than any Tau-Imperial conflict thus far...closer to Armageddon rather than the Sabbat World Crusade.
Iron Hammer has to be larger than the Achilus Crusade ( which utterly dwarfs the rather tiny Sabbat Worlds crusade ) in order to be the largest Tau-Imperial conflict thus far.
Tadashi wrote:Iron Hammer never mentioned it was bigger than any Imperial campaign thus far. It only mentioned it was larger than any Tau-Imperial conflict thus far...closer to Armageddon rather than the Sabbat World Crusade.
Iron Hammer has to be larger than the Achilus Crusade ( which utterly dwarfs the rather tiny Sabbat Worlds crusade ) in order to be the largest Tau-Imperial conflict thus far.
Look man, I know you hate the Tau... but how long are you going to blindly follow your own made up awesome IoM romance novel?!
Pulse Rifle > Lasgun
Battlesuit > Space Marine
Fire Warrior > Guardsmen
I mean you can quote me all you want dude, but these are just the facts. And yes, I know you played a video game narrated by a WWE announcer, that talked about the Tau getting drop kicked in a Blood Ravens fapfest... but if we are counting that game... Fire Warrior is on the table.
Just be glad the full might of the Tau hasn't been brought down on the IoM yet.
We already know the largest attempt at destroying the Tau Empire was larger than any conflict to date and that the IoM lost it, aka The Iron Hammer Campaign.
We know that
Soak that in and understand that unless GW made the Tau get wiped out in their next Codex, the IHC was a loss for the IoM.
BeefCakeSoup wrote: The story concludes it being a tale for another time.
Here is the entry:
"This viewpoint, and the wilfully misinterpreted conclusions that fed it, was the chief perticipating factor in the commencement of the Iron Hammer campaign, which soon escalated into the greatest confrontation yet seen between the Imperium of man and the Tau Empire. But thats another story....."
I'd bet we will see it mentioned in the Tau 5th Edition Codex.
So unless they retcon Tau, chalk this up to another loss for the IoM.
So "we" "know" the outcome of storys untold?
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
KingDeath wrote:
Tadashi wrote:Iron Hammer never mentioned it was bigger than any Imperial campaign thus far. It only mentioned it was larger than any Tau-Imperial conflict thus far...closer to Armageddon rather than the Sabbat World Crusade.
Iron Hammer has to be larger than the Achilus Crusade ( which utterly dwarfs the rather tiny Sabbat Worlds crusade ) in order to be the largest Tau-Imperial conflict thus far.
Not going to post a reply to my post?
He can't.
The sabbat worlds crusade and large conflicts like Armageddon are old fluff, thus use a different more believable scale.
This 'iron hammer' campaign is bare of any data until GW returns to it.
The "achilus crusade" is a 3rd party production, yes?
No, not bad. Not bad at all, ig goes nicely trough Tau armor.
Look man, I know you hate the Tau...
I don't hate Tau - I hate you. You are the reason Tau are being hated.
Pulse Rifle > Lasgun Lasgun on HIGH setting and Krieg Lasgun>>Pulse Rifle. Battlesuit > Space Marine Terminator>>Battlesuit Fire Warrior > Guardsmen Cadian, Krieg, Elysian, Mordian, Preatorian>>>Fire Warrior
I mean you can quote me all you want dude, but these are just the facts.
No, the facts are you don't know anything about the Imperium, you said that Gaurdsman can kill Terminator in melee. Learn something about the Imperium and then make claims.
And yes, I know you played a video game narrated by a WWE announcer, that talked about the Tau getting drop kicked in a Blood Ravens fapfest... but if we are counting that game... Fire Warrior is on the table.
Your point? We have Draigo, Mephiston, Bjorn...
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1hadhq wrote:
So "we" "know" the outcome of storys untold?
Look man, I know you hate the Tau... but how long are you going to blindly follow your own made up awesome IoM romance novel?!
Pulse Rifle > Lasgun
Battlesuit > Space Marine
Fire Warrior > Guardsmen
I mean you can quote me all you want dude, but these are just the facts. And yes, I know you played a video game narrated by a WWE announcer, that talked about the Tau getting drop kicked in a Blood Ravens fapfest... but if we are counting that game... Fire Warrior is on the table.
Sorry facts?
In your dreams maybe..
Without these attempts to glorify your own choice of plastic models by pissing on somebody elses, and weirdly never aimed at anything but imperials, its no wonder if the thread caught attention of the owners of said models covered in your piss...
Isn't it time to consider the rest of the galaxy, those who are not humans ( or no longer count as such ) ?
Still a "royal rumble", this 40k verse.
1hadhq wrote: He can't. The sabbat worlds crusade and large conflicts like Armageddon are old fluff, thus use a different more believable scale.
WHAT? Most people I talk to say that the numbers for the Imperium at Armageddon were ridiculously low. The Achilus Crusade number of 6 billion troops are actually very believable seeing as the Achilus Crusade is not for one planet but multiple solar systems and planets. The Achilus Crusade started with a billion troops, similar to the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, which due to the number of foes the crusade is facing was increased until it became 6 billion.
The "achilus crusade" is a 3rd party production, yes?
Yes, so what?
King Death made a claim that the Tau are fighting off 30 billion Imperial troops, that he has yet to prove, when the only true number we have of Imperial troops btw, as far as I know, is 6 billion for the entire crusade and most of those are fighting off the Nids and Chaos.
The Tau own a place in the arc of my chainsword swinging down, thats all they own... 
So we shall bash the Tau?
