Results! If you're name is spelled wrong (Frankie needs hooked on phonics! haha) let us know and we'll fix it.
Ready to form Voltron! Activate interlocks! Dyna-therms connected. Infra-cells up; mega-thrusters are go! Form feet and legs; form arms and body; and I'll form the head!
Yeah, that's right everyone, Reecius here to announce the launch of the Bay Area Open 2013, March 1-3!
Like the mighty Voltron, this event is loved by good, feared by evil and ready to chop some nasty old Robeasts into little bits, Ki-Yi!
So, what is the BAO? It is the largest miniatures gaming tournament on the West Coast of the USA, what started Team Zero Comp and Frontline Gaming. Way back in yonder years a group of buddies that loved playing in 40K tournaments decided to throw their hat in the ring and run one for themselves. It turned out to be a good idea as the event was a big success and was what gave them the idea to open a Game Store and live the gamer life, full time!
So, the BAO is a very special event for us. We've really worked hard to make this the best year yet, and the feedback we've been getting so far has been just awesome. So many people are excited to come and it really means a lot to us to see the excitement building! We've got folks coming in from all over the USA and a few teams saying they're coming in from out of the country! One of the awesome things about the BAO is the low price. Our tickets are very affordable and the Hotel is super cheap ($69.99 per night for a double! Just tell them you're there for the Bay Area Open) which makes the BAO the most affordable, major GT in the country. You can grab tickets here!
You can see results and pictures from last year. BoLS own Goatboy nearly won it all!
Prize support at our events is AWESOME! We give out entire armies, awards for best painted, best costumes, Renaissance Man, our very popular "Best Of" awards that go out to the player that does the best with each army, and our very awesome new Tournament Champion award, The Belt of Russ!
Yeah, you read that right! We're making a super awesome belt of awesomness that will have the winner's name on it, straight up WWF style! We will keep the belt on display at Frontline Gaming and every event's winner will have their name added to the Belt of Russ! What's not to love about that?!
So mark your calendars, the BAO 2013 is coming up, March 1-3 and is gong to be a super fun, can't miss event!
Tickets have been moving fast, so be sure to grab your soon!
Looking forward to having you all!
So far we know Goatboy and Alan B (winner of the ETC singles and Wargamescon) will be coming, Team Zero Comp including last year's winner, ChristianA, Jy2, and a ton of other very fun, very good players.
We've got folks coming in from all over the place, it is going to be a blast!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alex Bessinger signed up too, winner of Feast of Blades!
We've also got the Leadership2 guys signing up now who run the Quake City Rumble, they're excellent Fantasy Player and a lot of fun.
Josh Rosenstien, winner of the Fantasy side last year, is signed up, too! Gong to be a strong field and a lot of fun!
My Thousand Sons will be reprising their appearance in the 40k tourney, just picked up my ticket. If you're on the fence about going, I highly advise it, we had an incredible amount of fun last year.
Very excited to have you both, especially some of you coming out to your first event, that is awesome!
We moved a lot of tickets today, but we still have plenty of space left. If tickets keep moving at this pace though, we'll be sold out in a matter of days.
I would highly suggest that anyone coming out please get your tickets soon, thanks!
So, I was listening to the Signals from the Frontline podcast, and you were wondering about getting people to commit to the Las Vegas Open, and getting the seed money to rent out a hotel ballroom.
I was wondering if you have ever thought about putting up a Kickstarter?
That way you can sell tickets to see how much interest you have in it without committing to anything until you sell a certain amount of tickets.
You can sell tickets for $100 or something and you can have a funding goal of $10,000.00 that you will hit when you reach 100 attendees.
Blackmoor wrote: So, I was listening to the Signals from the Frontline podcast, and you were wondering about getting people to commit to the Las Vegas Open, and getting the seed money to rent out a hotel ballroom.
I was wondering if you have ever thought about putting up a Kickstarter?
That way you can sell tickets to see how much interest you have in it without committing to anything until you sell a certain amount of tickets.
You can sell tickets for $100 or something and you can have a funding goal of $10,000.00 that you will hit when you reach 100 attendees.
The Days Inn website shows they are sold out from the 1st to the 3rd of March.
The Ramada (just a few blocks south) still has rooms open. They are also running a discount right now...61USD +tax a night. About 135 total for 2 nights.
She Who Must Be Obeyed has given her blessings. See you there Reece.
Just purchased my ticket. Ill have my orks there, fully painted with display board and placard. In addition Ill be bringing a full table of scenery for the table contest. Can you say Trench warfare ^.^
I also bought mine. I guess I will try this business. If anyone is coming from LA and wants to car pool, I'm rolling solo atm. Hit me up and we can sing happy songs all the way up!
I just finished basing all the scenery for the table Im bringing. Reeclus; are there any requirements I should know about while planning and building this thing as far as LOS blocking and such? My table features more difficult terrain and lots of low structures/barricades verses large buildings. There are three baston sized buildings that do block full LOS. Just wanted to double check before plunging into painting everything. And of course the middle of the board features a full boxed set of the Wall of Martyr's trench set.
Looks like I wont make it this year here is hoping for 2014 but was wondering do you guys host newbie events? A tournament can be quite over whelming for a newbie. Im Asking because I would love to get some games in but my wife not a gamer till now:} The painting got her hooked. Is new and we play but would love to get her into a narrative event or somthing. She has ove 5000 points of marines and is now working on a chaos army.
No strict requirements, we want you to go crazy and use your imagination! All we ask is 25% table coverage and LOS blocking terrain in the middle of the table.
Can't wait to see your entry!
@warhammernut
Too bad you wont be making it, sorry to hear that. We don't have a specific Newbie event, but the Team Tournament and the Narrative event are both not super competitive, so they are a good venue to cut your teeth. We may do a 500 point tournament next year though, just to help teach new players. That's a good idea.
@thread
We are almost out of ticket for 40K! Grab em while they're hot, guys.
A 500 points or a 1000 would be great. its a fine balancing act took 28 years to get the wife to play and dont want to scae her off. she is competitive though and wants to play more. she is a painting machine though!
So heres a preview of some of the terrain Im building for you guys. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/498365.page Its at the bottom. Its going to look awesome when its all finished, lots more details to paint on and add still. I also have a painted felt mat for the scenery, just add a table and its good to go.
I'll be there. However I'm looking forward to getting my ass handed to me due to the following:
"Forge World units will be allowed so long as they are neither a Super Heavy nor Gargantuan Creature. The most recent version of the rules must be used. This means not just the “40K Approved” units, but any that do not fall within the above restrictions."
I think this is going to have some serious balance implications for people who exploit it.
Your wife wants to play and is a painting machine? Wow, you sir, are a lucky man!
@MikeFox
Nice one, that table and your army looks sweet!
@a1steaks
Well, this will be the 4th GT we've run using FW and so far, it has been no big deal at all, honestly. They do impact the meta, but so far they have not been even fractionally as bad as a lot of folks thought they would be. The impact has been rather underwhelming, to be honest.
To get ready for dealing with competition like you, Dave, or Dok, I'm reading a Peter Benchley novel, White Shark , which apparently, "makes Jaws looks like a guppy." So, I'll be totally prepared to take on anybody!
Who needs new dice? Who needs practice games? Not me!
To get ready for dealing with competition like you, Dave, or Dok, I'm reading a Peter Benchley novel, White Shark , which apparently, "makes Jaws looks like a guppy." So, I'll be totally prepared to take on anybody!
Who needs new dice? Who needs practice games? Not me!
Dok wrote: Hey Reece, How will "the hunt" warlord trait play into the BAO mission scenario?
Well, if you read the event guidelines you'd see that any bonus points earned from Warlord traits apply to the primary mission, but you clearly didn't read it, did you!!!*!$!%)!*%$_!
Haha, but don't feel bad, I get about a half dozen emails a day from people asking me questions that are clearly answered in the tournament guidelines. I don't even know why I bother writing them,sometimes! haha
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and only 8 tickets left for 40K!
Dok wrote: Hey Reece, How will "the hunt" warlord trait play into the BAO mission scenario?
Well, if you read the event guidelines you'd see that any bonus points earned from Warlord traits apply to the primary mission, but you clearly didn't read it, did you!!!*!$!%)!*%$_!
Haha, but don't feel bad, I get about a half dozen emails a day from people asking me questions that are clearly answered in the tournament guidelines. I don't even know why I bother writing them,sometimes! haha
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and only 8 tickets left for 40K!
I also finnaly bought my ticket. Trying to get my army painted but can't seam to find the motivation. @Reece I'm going to bring my table for the compitition and you've seen it, do I have to still send pictures to see if its up to snuff?
FAQ inbound, we are working it as I write to you now. Input from everyone welcome, this will be a rough first draft.
@OverwatchCNC
I can't speak for Yak, but from talking with him he has priorities in his life that take him away from writing the INAT at this point in time.
@Dok
Hahaha, we do expect a lot form you all!
@SabrX
We hope you can make it, buddy. Your Sisters are deadly.
@Levi
Glad you're coming! Zero Comp needs to represent! And your table for the table contest is going to be awesome. Last year your table was easily one of the best there.
FAQ inbound, we are working it as I write to you now. Input from everyone welcome, this will be a rough first draft.
@OverwatchCNC
I can't speak for Yak, but from talking with him he has priorities in his life that take him away from writing the INAT at this point in time.
@Dok
Hahaha, we do expect a lot form you all!
@SabrX
We hope you can make it, buddy. Your Sisters are deadly.
@Levi
Glad you're coming! Zero Comp needs to represent! And your table for the table contest is going to be awesome. Last year your table was easily one of the best there.
That's is entirely understandable, and explains it.
I wish I had my costume out here to go in. Just moved from the east coast and it had to stay to make room in the car for more important things. ITs ok next year me and fiancee might make an appearance as a Commissar and sister of battle.
Nice. My aunt is making Mine. Just got back from a fitting.
Its going to be expensive, The buttons alone cost 30$ and the patter 15.
Its Black denim with a red velvat inside
@Reecius: For the team event; if our two teams are Desperate Allies on the chart in the rulebook, do we need to declare which army is primary detachment and which is secondary?
So like Crimson Fists and Orks team-up, if the orks are secondary, they cannot score or deny....
How does the "3 Objective Markers on 25mm bases, 2 Objective Markers on 40mm bases." is t per player or team?
And What do you mean by the amount of kill points on the List?
Isnt a kill point 1 per unit?
I will add to the question pile-on: any idea if you'll be organizing a shuttle service from the BART station? That would be pretty neat. If not, any idea how much cab fare I'll have to eat?
whigwam wrote: I will add to the question pile-on: any idea if you'll be organizing a shuttle service from the BART station? That would be pretty neat. If not, any idea how much cab fare I'll have to eat?
I was told there'd be a shuttle at 3, 6 and 9 PM Friday. This was onfirmed this week (on the podcast I think?) as well as added that anyone coming in Thursday might be able to make an arrangement to get a ride.
In checking all options I did see that public transportation was an option (at least google maps seemed to think so) although it includes a 20 minute walk from the bus stop to the hotel.
winterman wrote:I was told there'd be a shuttle at 3, 6 and 9 PM Friday. This was onfirmed this week (on the podcast I think?) as well as added that anyone coming in Thursday might be able to make an arrangement to get a ride.
In checking all options I did see that public transportation was an option (at least google maps seemed to think so) although it includes a 20 minute walk from the bus stop to the hotel.
Thanks for the info! Figured it might be something like that...too bad my flight doesn't land until 10pm Friday. Heard any mention of a shuttle on Monday? Funny to think the flight will likely be the least painful part of traveling out there..!
No word on a shuttle Monday. I wasn't as worried about getting out of Antioch on Monday.
It might be worth a call to the hotel to see if they provide any sort of shuttle. Many do and a pickup from bay point bart seems like it could be somewhat common. Dunno though.
There will indeed be a BART shuttle, we are running it at 3, 6, and 9pm.
If a number of you fellas are coming in later, we can organize a 4th shuttle time. We want to make sure it is as easy as possible for folks to get there and away.
We will be running folks to the BART station after the awards on Sunday, and we can run another on Monday, that is no problem. I will set up a time for that this week and we'll post it on the site and on the Podcast, and again here to get the word out.
Next year we are going to a hotel for sure, we just hesitated to do it this year as with 6th being so new, we wanted to minimize our financial risk. But with how much we've grown this year, next year we'll be able to negotiate a good deal on a hotel that will be close to an airport to make it much easier to attend. This will be the last bash in the barn!
The barn rules. Hotels close by and pretty cheap. Various types of food stations within walking distance of the hotels. Tons of parking (for free). Lots of space between tables (which are 8' giving ample room for armies, dice books, etc).
Yeah, the barn (it's not actually a barn though, just a huge, open building at the fairgrounds) does have a lot of positives. We just always get some complaints about the venue. Now that we have lots of folks flying in, being closer to an airport would be better, and the fact that we will be going to at least 200 players for 40K alone next year means we can get a good deal on a hotel. It won't be as cheap as the BAO traditionally is, but that is the trade off.
So for now, the barn is going to be rockin one last time!
OK, here's an update. We have a group of the major TO's in the country on a conference call tonight to hammer out some of the last details on a universal tournament FAQ.
We should have that this week, if not the BAO will put up a temporary FAQ to get you guys ready to roll.
Sorry for the delay, but there are more hands in this cookie jar than just my own.
Grimgob wrote: I still say keep the barn (maybe rent rubber standing mats) and do a festival style 40k tournament. Its uniqe and very California.
What, bad accoustics, no climate control, poor amenities, and no easy food options? That doesn't say "California" to me. I'll give you "difficult to get there," though.
You've never been to an outdoor music fest? If there were a food stand or two and some live music you would be at one (down to the concrete smelly bathrooms).
Acoustics play a minor role in the whole deal. It didn't really get hot last year, but you are at the mercy of Mother Nature.
I agree that food trucks or something would be an awesome add. Mediocre sandwiches and pizza are not that awesome.
I dig the space though, I hate trying to play on 6ft tables and I even more hate playing on tables with no space on the end. BAO has neither of those, well few of those. Last year, Table 1 was in the far NE corner, so the one short edge was up against the wall. Just a slight hindrance for checking LOS and stuff.
During the event itself? None. The fairgrounds are about 5-10 (driving) minutes away from anything. That 10 minutes does get you to the usual collection of fast food & chain restaurants, though.
You can, however, bring whatever you want on-site. (I'd suggest not bringing illegal substances.)
Reece and his team had Pizza and Sandwhiches for sale at the event also.
I was there for 3 days, and 3 days of "Con" food is not the business. If you are there for any of the 1 days events, the pizza and sandwiches are reasonably priced for event food.
Cortez667 wrote: After what we learned last year, my buddy and I are bringing an ice chest full of BEER. That might be your best bet, hotsauce.
Fixed that for you. The beer in the ice chest in my car was all that got me through drawing Eldar opponents for rounds 1, 2, and 3 last year all with Eldrad and I was playing GK ... There were only 4 Eldar players there!
Cortez667 wrote: After what we learned last year, my buddy and I are bringing an ice chest full of BEER. That might be your best bet, hotsauce.
Fixed that for you. The beer in the ice chest in my car was all that got me through drawing Eldar opponents for rounds 1, 2, and 3 last year all with Eldrad and I was playing GK ... There were only 4 Eldar players there!
Cortez667 wrote: After what we learned last year, my buddy and I are bringing an ice chest full of BEER. That might be your best bet, hotsauce.
Fixed that for you. The beer in the ice chest in my car was all that got me through drawing Eldar opponents for rounds 1, 2, and 3 last year all with Eldrad and I was playing GK ... There were only 4 Eldar players there!
LOL, actually we're bringing a separate cooler for the adult beverages.
The food each year is such a pain in the ass we said screw it this year and are just having some lunch trucks come out. No matter what we did, people complained! hahaha, not dealing with it this year.
We will have water, sodas, Gatorade and Energy Drinks.
And yes, feel free to bring your own food and drinks, guys were even bar-b-quing last year!
As I have not attended to partcpate yet have been there to watch and bought stuff. Hopng to attend n 2014. A hotel based event may be good may not be I guess it all depends. To be honest I think the fair grounds give the event a very unique and enjoyable feel.
Cortez667 wrote: After what we learned last year, my buddy and I are bringing an ice chest full of BEER. That might be your best bet, hotsauce.
Fixed that for you. The beer in the ice chest in my car was all that got me through drawing Eldar opponents for rounds 1, 2, and 3 last year all with Eldrad and I was playing GK ... There were only 4 Eldar players there!
And you didn't share???
I asked if you wanted some! But I only had Coors Light left by that time and you turned your nose up at my mass produced American lager . Not all of us have blogs about the finer points of beer brewing . This year I will try to bring a few more Microbrews for those of us with more refined beer palates.
We like the Fairgrounds, actually. Some folks don't and I understand why, but I like having all the grass around, and the trees. It's a pretty spot.
Plus it allows us to keep our ticket price so low. We are easily the cheapest major GT and when you look at our prize support, we blow away most events with much higher ticket prices. That is because of the lower cost of the fair grounds.
Now that we have a lot of folks flying in, it is a bit of a pain in the butt to get there from the airport. That is our main concern.
Reecius wrote: We like the Fairgrounds, actually. Some folks don't and I understand why, but I like having all the grass around, and the trees. It's a pretty spot.
Plus it allows us to keep our ticket price so low. We are easily the cheapest major GT and when you look at our prize support, we blow away most events with much higher ticket prices. That is because of the lower cost of the fair grounds.
Now that we have a lot of folks flying in, it is a bit of a pain in the butt to get there from the airport. That is our main concern.
Seeing as how I have attended every BAO and I will be there this year too I feel the need to lend my $.02. While there are some drawbacks to the fairgrounds there are more bonuses. The low cost of the event, with large prize support. The grass and trees are nice, the non-corporate, down home feel of the whole event feels much more laid back than other GTs. There is something to definitely be said for having a nice relaxed setting in which to enjoy a weekend of gaming. Not to mention the freedom to bring in your own beverages and food if you feel so inclined and the room for 8 foot tables is a real bonus to the site in my book. Personally I have zero problem with the venue.
OT for the thread, I encourage anyone reading this who is thinking of attending on the Warmahordes side to do so. I know the ticket sales have been low but my friends, who have attended every year for Warmahordes, will vouch for the fact that the BAO Warmahordes event is completely worth attending. It just won't feel quite so much like the BAO without the Warmahordes guys there, so sign up!
Seeing as how I have attended every BAO and I will be there this year too I feel the need to lend my $.02. While there are some drawbacks to the fairgrounds there are more bonuses. The low cost of the event, with large prize support. The grass and trees are nice, the non-corporate, down home feel of the whole event feels much more laid back than other GTs. There is something to definitely be said for having a nice relaxed setting in which to enjoy a weekend of gaming. Not to mention the freedom to bring in your own beverages and food if you feel so inclined and the room for 8 foot tables is a real bonus to the site in my book. Personally I have zero problem with the venue.
Sounds heavenly, but I spend most weekends in the summer camping so its my kind of venue. I can see that being a turn off to some but sounds great to me.
I agree with OverwatchCNC completely. In the past I have found the fairgrounds to be an excellent environment for a tournament and I am looking forward to attending again this year.
Grimgob wrote: I would suggest a summer camping 40k event but that would probably make the gamer stench unbearable.
Haha, you're a foo Levi!
To be honest, I haven't brought food or drink either time and I made it out alive. I was generously provided with some beers in the last match last year and that made the game a blast. So... I think I may be chucking my competitiveness out the window and just getting drunk and throwing dice. I think I may have lost my point...
But if food trucks will be present, then I'm sure that will be awesome. Just make sure to bring some cash...
We will have plenty of small bills on hand, and in a pinch we can have someone run their card on our Square and give them cash (with a surcharge to cover our expense of course) but that is a last resort and not something we want people to count on.
Please be prepared and have some cash handy. Thanks for saying that Dok, i forgot to mention it. I will include that in the next update email.
@Overwatch
I like the laid back feel too, but as others have said, I prefer to be outside to being in a nice hotel. Hotels are great, I don't dislike them, but when you can go sit on the grass and drink a beer and eat a sandwich you brought from home, that is more my speed.
Yeah, I have no idea why Warmahordes is lagging so hard on ticket sales this year. Every other year we have gotten between 20-30 players per day and it typically outsells Fantasy. This year, Fantasy is gong hot and blowing Warmahordes out of the water and 40K is going gang busters! We have a double digit waiting list for 40K (more folks on that waiting list than we have signed up for Warmahordes). We need to rethink our Warmahordes promotions strategy for coming years as we definitely want that to be a part of the BAO.
I am working with a local TO to come up with some solutions if we do have to cut Warmahordes. I agree, it just doesn't feel the same if we don't have lots of different game systems. That is why we hesitate to cut it, even if we aren't making any money or take a slight loss.
Reecius wrote: Yes, bring cash! No ATMs at the Fairgrounds!
Yeah, I have no idea why Warmahordes is lagging so hard on ticket sales this year. Every other year we have gotten between 20-30 players per day and it typically outsells Fantasy. This year, Fantasy is gong hot and blowing Warmahordes out of the water and 40K is going gang busters! We have a double digit waiting list for 40K (more folks on that waiting list than we have signed up for Warmahordes). We need to rethink our Warmahordes promotions strategy for coming years as we definitely want that to be a part of the BAO.
I know at least 9 people who plan on attending this tournament. The reason that ticket sales are probably low at this point is we, as gamers and consumers, generally will only purchase the tickets at the latest date we need to. Why shell out the money ahead of time, if there is not a reason too. If there is not a risk of them selling out, most people will put off buying them to latest possible date.
I however just bought my ticket to hopefully help alleviate some of your concerns
BryanC wrote: I know at least 9 people who plan on attending this tournament. The reason that ticket sales are probably low at this point is we, as gamers and consumers, generally will only purchase the tickets at the latest date we need to. Why shell out the money ahead of time, if there is not a reason too. If there is not a risk of them selling out, most people will put off buying them to latest possible date.
I however just bought my ticket to hopefully help alleviate some of your concerns
Reece, you need to post the last email you sent out. If the Warmahordes players don't know that you're contemplating cancellation of the Warmahordes event, this attitude is likely to prevail & bite everyone involved.
BryanC wrote: I know at least 9 people who plan on attending this tournament. The reason that ticket sales are probably low at this point is we, as gamers and consumers, generally will only purchase the tickets at the latest date we need to. Why shell out the money ahead of time, if there is not a reason too. If there is not a risk of them selling out, most people will put off buying them to latest possible date.
I however just bought my ticket to hopefully help alleviate some of your concerns
Reece, you need to post the last email you sent out. If the Warmahordes players don't know that you're contemplating cancellation of the Warmahordes event, this attitude is likely to prevail & bite everyone involved.
Janthkin, someone did this already for our bay area Warmahordes Google Group.
Defeatmyarmy wrote: Lol I have less than a month to learn the 6th rules! Time to get kraken! Been busy with work can't wait to see who makes it to the top :-)
Better make some flashcards for all those new and fancy USRs.
Reecius wrote: Yes, bring cash! No ATMs at the Fairgrounds!
Yeah, I have no idea why Warmahordes is lagging so hard on ticket sales this year. Every other year we have gotten between 20-30 players per day and it typically outsells Fantasy. This year, Fantasy is gong hot and blowing Warmahordes out of the water and 40K is going gang busters! We have a double digit waiting list for 40K (more folks on that waiting list than we have signed up for Warmahordes). We need to rethink our Warmahordes promotions strategy for coming years as we definitely want that to be a part of the BAO.
I know at least 9 people who plan on attending this tournament. The reason that ticket sales are probably low at this point is we, as gamers and consumers, generally will only purchase the tickets at the latest date we need to. Why shell out the money ahead of time, if there is not a reason too. If there is not a risk of them selling out, most people will put off buying them to latest possible date.
I however just bought my ticket to hopefully help alleviate some of your concerns
Oh, I totally understand. People in general procrastinate. It's just that we came to a situation where we have run out of space in the venue, and have mounting pressure to open up more 40K spots and the Warmhordes tickets just aren't moving and I have been running around in the community trying to get folks motivated and it's just come to this. If people don't buy ticket by tomorrow we have to go with the event that has greater demand, it's only fair to the players and fiscally intelligent.
Next year we'll have more square footage and we'll avoid this problem entirely.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, but on a side note, I found an ulterior venue to host an event for Warmahordes even if we aren't able to have it in the BAO itself, so I think we may be able to find a middle ground regardless!
We opened up more spots for the BAO40K event, and gave first dibs to those on the waiting list. Now, we’re opening it up to everyone, so grab them while they’re hot!
They’re already moving fast. After we sell these, that’s it, there is physically no more room in the venue for more players! That will put us at 150 40K players! What we will do for rounds (as you need 8 round over 128 players), is add a championship round (assuming that we have over 128 show up, we typically have about 20 no-shows). Everyone else will still play 7 games, but the top 2 players will play one last game to determine who the top dog is. That way everyone who has travel plans can still stick to them, but we still have a true champion at the end of the event.
40K Doubles is going really strong, too and some of the costumes we’re seeing are hilarious! Fantasy is pushing 50 players at this point, which is awesome, and the 40K Narrative event is looking to be good fun, too and there is still room for that!
I registered today after you opened up some slots. I received an email confirmation of the payment, but did not receive any sort of confirmation regarding the ticket. Is that normal, or should I poke the contact email address to make sure I'm on the list?
As I understand it, the Death from the Skies book has no new rules. It is just a compendium of flyer rules, but it does give the Storm Raven to Marines and BT, I think. I don't think our store is even going to get one of them, to be honest. Our rep said they didn't print many of them. We'll know more in a few days when it's released.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Blood Lord Soldado
Reecius wrote: As I understand it, the Death from the Skies book has no new rules. It is just a compendium of flyer rules, but it does give the Storm Raven to Marines and BT, I think. I don't think our store is even going to get one of them, to be honest. Our rep said they didn't print many of them. We'll know more in a few days when it's released.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Blood Lord Soldado
See you there!
Any news on that FAQ? I am really interested in seeing what you guys decide for the Banner of Devastation. If it effects Storm Bolters as the BGB implies then I need to seriously reassess my lists.
I just got the V1.2 rough draft and we are having another call tonight to go over another round of questions.
It is a long, time consuming process and we can't get to all the questions in one go, there are too many. So, you may not see answers to questions immediately.
As to the FAQ posted on the frontlinegaming site... Am I reading that correctly? Necron players can Mindshackle a Deathwing Knight, then force that model to use Smite mode on his attacks, and the rest of the unit has to do so as well? Does that blow their once-per-game? That's a pretty significant decision to allow one player's rules to force the expenditure of another player's once-per-game ability.
I'm more disappointed that they didn't take the chance to clarify that the Eldar Psyker FAQ answer should have said "No, they cannot cast outside the vehicle" rater than simply "no".
"Kudos to you guys for giving this a go. Might want to touch on the Space Wolf double HQ for allies since you did for Chaos Daemons. It’s under the GWFAQ but not blantantly spelled out. Also Relic/Flyer/Night Scythe issue as you can techinically now take the relic into reserve by embarking on and crashing your own scythe by RAW.
Not a fan of the tankshock ruling but I can see where it comes from. It does open up other issues though. Would you also ignore vehicles? They can’t be tankshocked and therefore should not be movable but the ruling implies they would.
I just flatout disagree with these:
Blast Weapons
•Models completely out of LoS of the firing unit can be hit by a blast template and add wounds to the wound pool for the shooting attack. However, models completely out of LoS cannot have unsaved wounds allocated to them, and so cannot be removed as a casualties.
Since the rules say you can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight I’m unsure why that’s being ignored for the purposes of this ruling.
•Fast Attack and Heavy Support choices count as denial units in The Scouring and The Big Guns Never Tire missions respectively.
The rules are pretty explicit about scoring and denial units. Troops are specifically mentioned as both for a reason. I feel this is a rule change, not a clarification.
Just my thoughts. Again guys though, kudos on getting this thing together. It’ll be nice for the sake of consistancy at major events"
pretre wrote: Yeah, maybe a separate thread in this sub-forum for discussion of this FAQ?
Actually given that the FAQ came about from discussions amongst major tournament TOs, it might be worth posting in YMDC for further comment there. As I understand it, this is sort of the first draft of the new INATFAQ for 6th Edition since the original author hasn't been able to work on the new one? That would make that a good place for it to go.
1.) I am 1 member of the council, I do not unilaterally make decisions. We vote on most of these issues after a lot of debate.
2.) No decisions were made arbitrarily and a lot of the rules questions are a LOT more complex than it appears when taken in the context of a single instance of the rule. The rules interact with one another and a lot of decisions have to be made for consistency across multiple iterations of a rule and in different context.
3.) Every effort was made to be fair, and there was no agenda to change the game in any way.
4.) Try to look at this from the perspective of a TO, not a player of a specific army. People get mad when a rule affects their specific list, often failing to see how it affects the game as a whole.
5.) No FAQ will make everyone happy.
And please bear with me, I am getting blasted with questions across multiple websites right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I am not going to get into rules debates in this thread only because it will turn into YMDC and totally derail the thread.
1.) I am 1 member of the council, I do not unilaterally make decisions. We vote on most of these issues after a lot of debate.
2.) No decisions were made arbitrarily and a lot of the rules questions are a LOT more complex than it appears when taken in the context of a single instance of the rule. The rules interact with one another and a lot of decisions have to be made for consistency across multiple iterations of a rule and in different context.
3.) Every effort was made to be fair, and there was no agenda to change the game in any way.
4.) Try to look at this from the perspective of a TO, not a player of a specific army. People get mad when a rule affects their specific list, often failing to see how it affects the game as a whole.
5.) No FAQ will make everyone happy.
And please bear with me, I am getting blasted with questions across multiple websites right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I am not going to get into rules debates in this thread only because it will turn into YMDC and totally derail the thread.
aren't the terms YMDC and derailed thread nearly synonymous at this point?
It's getting close to time and I have some painting to so if I want to bring a list that can compete. At this point I am starting to consider a Destroyer Lord... If only they could take a royal court.
So will we need to have the Death from the Skies supplement to use the flier rules? I cant afford to go to the BAO and but a new stupid book. And Ill have images of the gaming table over to you guys later for the table contest. Its looking awesome.
I of Course cannot make this years BAO unfortunatly.
I would like to make an officil request lol :} For some kind of Begginers event for Warhammer 40k and Fantasy well at least 40k. With either a low or no prize support to keep the sharks away. I would like to expose more inexperienced players to the joy of convention style gaming. Anyway just a thought. I would be interested in helping set up the event to if you guys need volunteers.
I do have a reason also some folks young or old new o the hobby can be scared off by the sharks. I myself am new to warhammer 40k and fantasy as is my wife. I am an exp gamer though my wife is not. But I am sure even if small there would be some kind of interest in this.
warhammernut wrote: I of Course cannot make this years BAO unfortunatly.
I would like to make an officil request lol :} For some kind of Begginers event for Warhammer 40k and Fantasy well at least 40k. With either a low or no prize support to keep the sharks away. I would like to expose more inexperienced players to the joy of convention style gaming. Anyway just a thought. I would be interested in helping set up the event to if you guys need volunteers.
I've yet to attend a BAO (going to my first this year), but my impression from the FLG website is that the Narrative 40K event might be a little more low-key, and could perhaps fit the needs of a con-style gaming experience without worrying about the "intensity" that some tournament players can often bring to things.
Hey guys, no need for the flyer supplement. We couldn't even get them in the store, so no worries. I will get more info tomorrow, but as I understand it the only rule changes were covered in the latest gwfaq.
And yeah, a beginner event sounds great! We will certainly look into that. I know a lot of the here players that hang out at the shop were intimidated to go to the singles event, too. I think a lower key learning event would be a really good idea.
Next year I want to add some other fun sfuff too, like rpg's and such (we love pathfinder at frontline!) So shoot me any ideas like this, they're all welcome.
Also, some of the costumes people are making for the team event sound so funny! Can't wait to see them! That's a great newbie event too, as it is ultra laid back.
I will be there for both days of the Narrative Event with my Necrons. One question I have for the first day though is the kill team missions will be 2 players per side at 250 points each? It's a bit unclear with the wording it has now.
Reecius wrote: Hey guys, no need for the flyer supplement. We couldn't even get them in the store, so no worries. I will get more info tomorrow, but as I understand it the only rule changes were covered in the latest gwfaq.
And yeah, a beginner event sounds great! We will certainly look into that. I know a lot of the here players that hang out at the shop were intimidated to go to the singles event, too. I think a lower key learning event would be a really good idea.
Next year I want to add some other fun sfuff too, like rpg's and such (we love pathfinder at frontline!) So shoot me any ideas like this, they're all welcome.
Also, some of the costumes people are making for the team event sound so funny! Can't wait to see them! That's a great newbie event too, as it is ultra laid back.
I would love patthfinder, that would be pretty cool, but wouldnt that kinda hard, you being so close to Dundracon? Dont you do it roughly the same time?
Reecius wrote: Hey guys, no need for the flyer supplement. We couldn't even get them in the store, so no worries. I will get more info tomorrow, but as I understand it the only rule changes were covered in the latest gwfaq.
And yeah, a beginner event sounds great! We will certainly look into that. I know a lot of the here players that hang out at the shop were intimidated to go to the singles event, too. I think a lower key learning event would be a really good idea.
Next year I want to add some other fun sfuff too, like rpg's and such (we love pathfinder at frontline!) So shoot me any ideas like this, they're all welcome.
Also, some of the costumes people are making for the team event sound so funny! Can't wait to see them! That's a great newbie event too, as it is ultra laid back.
I would love patthfinder, that would be pretty cool, but wouldnt that kinda hard, you being so close to Dundracon? Dont you do it roughly the same time?
Actually DunDraCon is going on right now as I type so adding RPG stuff to the BAO would not be a conflict.
What i mean, being so close together, they would be in conflict. People would not liekly want to go to Two cons within 2 weeks. nor would many have the money for that.
It would appear life events have conspired against me and I will have to miss the BAO for the first time. Good luck everyone, at least this is one less Cron Air build to worry about!
OverwatchCNC wrote: It would appear life events have conspired against me and I will have to miss the BAO for the first time. Good luck everyone, at least this is one less Cron Air build to worry about!
@overwatchcnc, you'll be missed, buddy. Next year!
@zathras, it's looking really good! More sign ups than last testament big jim said he's going to make it even more involved. That event was awesome last year, we heard nothing but cheers and laughs, so we expect more of the same this go around.
Do me a favor Reece. Don't give away my ticket just yet I am making a few back channel efforts to try and get there still. I will let you know via PM, email, or FB when I am certain.
@Overwatch, will do, and we always have about 20 no shows, so I am assuming there will be plenty of room for last minute changes.
@Dok, haha, you got this!
@Thread
40K Sold Out.....Again! This is just so exciting for us to see the event max out for the second go around! 150 players inbound.
Also, tomorrow or Monday I will be shooting out the last "get ready" for the BAO email, and I will post it here. We made a few minor changes to the BAO Tournament FAQ based on player feedback. We are also making the call on if we will allow the (very minor) changes from Skies of Blood to apply to the BAO (and we're leaning towards yes). Sorry for the last minute information, not our usual SOP, but this year we have some mitigating circumstances. All will be fine, we just want to give you guys the heads up with as much advance notic as possible.
Dok wrote: So, I'm going to start painting my army today. There should be just enough time I think...
Remember Primer counts as a color ;p I still have 40 meq's to finish as well.
Or should I just bring the Black Templar and hope to be the best one?
I have about 70 to do, haha. It's gonna be an epic paint slinging weekend. Dude, you can totally take stormravens now, omg!
What list are you painting for? I saw yellow guys, but I assume it's not imperial fists.
@Reece: no sweat! It's about to be a dark angel factory up in my house this weekend.
Finished my army off yesterday. including breaking down 4 of my army's 28mm 7 objective flags and mounting them onto 40mm bases! Now I just need to juggle my army transports and get to work on the "pretty" version of my army list.
@Reece: I may be missing this on the site, but are we using random game length for the missions? If I missed it, my bad, but I really did read the packet this time, haha.
Yup, random game length. We changed the book missions as little as possible to accomodate our format and tournament logistics (such as preset terrain, etc.).
@thread
Sounds like we everyone is going to be busy as hell! haha, we have to make some last minute extra terrain for the spots we opened up for 40K (to get us to 150), so we're going to be burning the midnight oil ourselves, too!
25% off pre-order special about to go for the upcoming GW pre-release on Monday! Hit up Frankie at: orders@frontlinegaming.org
And he will hook you up with the latest and greatest GW goodies at an awesome price! So long as it arrives on time, you will even be able to pick up your new stuff at the BAO!
Just had to share this pic! We finished the Belt of Russ last night, and it is AWESOME! Better pics to come, but this appeals to the little Hulkamaniac in me! The 40K Champion gets to have his name added to the Belt of Russ for future generations to venerate. A huge thanks to Ronnie for making this all by hand, well done, sir!
See you all at the BAO tomorrow!
- See more at: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/02/28/feast-your-eyes-upon-the-belt-of-russ/#sthash.AzW1zigu.dpuf
Just had to share this pic! We finished the Belt of Russ last night, and it is AWESOME! Better pics to come, but this appeals to the little Hulkamaniac in me! The 40K Champion gets to have his name added to the Belt of Russ for future generations to venerate. A huge thanks to Ronnie for making this all by hand, well done, sir!
See you all at the BAO tomorrow!
- See more at: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/02/28/feast-your-eyes-upon-the-belt-of-russ/#sthash.AzW1zigu.dpuf
Just had to share this pic! We finished the Belt of Russ last night, and it is AWESOME! Better pics to come, but this appeals to the little Hulkamaniac in me! The 40K Champion gets to have his name added to the Belt of Russ for future generations to venerate. A huge thanks to Ronnie for making this all by hand, well done, sir!
See you all at the BAO tomorrow!
- See more at: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/02/28/feast-your-eyes-upon-the-belt-of-russ/#sthash.AzW1zigu.dpuf
Hey Reece, any recommendations for those of us (maybe just me) arriving too late to take the shuttle from the Pittsburg/Bay Point terminal? I gather it's only a 10-15 minute drive from the hotel, so I'm guessing a cab would probably be the best option?
I will PM you my cell, hit me up when you are on the BART and I will see if I can get someone to swoop you up, just buy them a beer or toss them a few bucks for gas.
If I can't get someone to get you, a cab is your best bet, probably run you $30? Not certain, but I would bet that is a fair estimate.
No worries man, we always try to help folks out where we can.
@hotsauceman1
Yes, we will have soda, water, pizza at lunch, shirts for order (we only printed up enough to cover the those that purchased one with their ticket, but we can make more. Just didn't want to make a bunch and then have them sit around), product, etc. Plus there will be some vendors there as well.
Anyone else staying in some dives tonight? We're staying in the Holiday Lodge Motel with a dead phone, a door handle that's broken and piss stains in the shower.
We'll see you all tomorrow, or we'll be on the news with a series killer eating our entrails
I had a blast at this year's BAO tournament. Inexpensive food, discounted Warhammer products, great atmosphere, and good amount of terrain on each table. There was a huge turnout with many competitive lists. Most of the players I met were really friendly and easy to get along with.
The only downside was limited space when navigating between tables, registration on day 1 delaying first round, player match up posting, and difficult to hear official announcements in a noise environment.
But overall, this tournament was a huge success with surprising results. Good job Reecius, thanks for organizing this!
thelordcal wrote: Anyone else staying in some dives tonight? We're staying in the Holiday Lodge Motel with a dead phone, a door handle that's broken and piss stains in the shower.
We'll see you all tomorrow, or we'll be on the news with a series killer eating our entrails
Near constant. Pot odor from at least two rooms. Dealer likely in one, given the people traffic in and out. I ain't gonna say which one, as sometimes, dey is some crazy ass-folks. KnowwhatIamsayin'?
Otherwise good service & clean room.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SabrX wrote: I had a blast at this year's BAO tournament. Inexpensive food, discounted Warhammer products, great atmosphere, and good amount of terrain on each table. There was a huge turnout with many competitive lists. Most of the players I met were really friendly and easy to get along with.
The only downside was limited space when navigating between tables, registration on day 1 delaying first round, player match up posting, and difficult to hear official announcements in a noise environment.
But overall, this tournament was a huge success with surprising results. Good job Reecius, thanks for organizing this!
Didju bring Sisters? I debated about interrupting a game with a SoB army that looked like it might've been yours or jy2's.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tomjoad wrote: I just saw The Independent Characters' pics on FB. It made me even sadder I couldn't go. Looks like an awesome event!
SabrX wrote: I had a blast at this year's BAO tournament. Inexpensive food, discounted Warhammer products, great atmosphere, and good amount of terrain on each table. There was a huge turnout with many competitive lists. Most of the players I met were really friendly and easy to get along with.
The only downside was limited space when navigating between tables, registration on day 1 delaying first round, player match up posting, and difficult to hear official announcements in a noise environment.
But overall, this tournament was a huge success with surprising results. Good job Reecius, thanks for organizing this!
Didju bring Sisters? I debated about interrupting a game with a SoB army that looked like it might've been yours or jy2's.
Nope, I haven't played SoB much this edition. I know the army you are talking about though. That was a beautifully painted SoB army. I heard there were 5 SoB players at the tournament.
I brought my Tau-Orks army. I believe I'm the only one who ran that combo.
Nope, I haven't played SoB much this edition. I know the army you are talking about though. That was a beautifully painted SoB army. I heard there were 5 SoB players at the tournament.
I brought my Tau-Orks army. I believe I'm the only one who ran that combo.
No, there were several others who brought Torks. Got photos which I will probably be posting in my BAO batrep thread tomorrow.
Posted my quick summary of the BAO this year on my website. The title intro I use for the blog post is the same I use for all Tournament posts I make so don't take it as a reference to the contents inside. I also took over a 100 pictures I posted up as well!
Congrats to Liz giving the Old Demons a final hurrah before new rules and models come on line.
I could not believe the amount of Double-Triple HellDrake spam that was going on.
Nice to meet up with old freinds and aquaintenances and get some good games in.
1st day was long...with 200 people to get checked in and paired up it made for a late start. The barn was about as full as you could get it. If WFB plans to expand you'll need that second barn...along with staff and duplicate computers to run that room.
I know Reece wants to try and get the event into an actual hotel...but the hall size you need will run you 10-15K. You will never recover that kind of cost and that will cause this event to go bust.
Of course another option is to see how much renting a circus tent/canopy would be (including set-up) and using that giant grass field in front of the barn. Besides...that would add to the 'ambiance' of the Fantasy Event. It would also let the WFB guys do their announcements, get the loot, and get on the road rather than waiting for 40K to finish.
As for check-ins...start check-ins a day early. Most of the Friday Doubles players are playing the singles GT too. Let them check-in for everything on Friday. Also alot of us get in Friday afternoon and swing by to check out the Doubles and to say hi...check us in right then also.
Somehow you need more staff/Judges. Are other FLGS's willing to partner-up in exchange for body support? Maybe entice some good local players who aren't playing to help out in exchange for Store Credit or a Battleforce? Or even cash? Something. You're short by at least 1/2 to 2/3rds in staff. Even more next year if WFB moves to their own barn/tent.
A shame the food trucks bailed on you (was this because of the gate problem with the fairground itself and they could not get in???). You should tally up how much pizza you sold and show the cash flow to the venders. For an east 4-digit day in profit you'll get every roach-coach in Frisco.
DBs. TFGs. Yep, their were some issues with DBs. Perhaps its time to introduce a new category beyond expulsion from the event....a ban from the next years Open. With the specifics shared with other TOs so they can decide if they want this sort of activity at their events. A year of being excluded from alot of major events should cause most people to evaluate their behaviour. (This is for that Special DB who'se dice go cold and they start throwing models around and calling their opponent an MFer).
Bracket winners. Something for the people not bringing the latest Net Power list. After day 1 break everyone into 4 brackets. The top bracket plays for the Belt and the Glory. But also give a shoutout (and some loot...even if its just a basic troop box of their choice) to the top player in the other brackets. Everyone knows after your 2nd loss your done. People take it in different ways. No-Notice dropping leaving your matchups in a lurch. Nerd raging on their next opponent. Toal relaxation as they know they can just enjoy the game for the games sake. But if they have bracket matchings, that gives them the incentive to keep charging (or to do the DB thing and throw the other 2 day1 games so they can pound baby seals the next day...but most people will see right through that level of baggery).
Trophies. Even if its something simple and Cheap. Certainly for the winners. But as part of the swag a simple "I was their" participant keepsake. With a little brass tag to be sent later with their name and final standing engraved on it. Shirts and stickers and all are nice...but they wear out. Playing aides given out get lost or broken. But a little something to put on the shelf and revel in the magnitude of your Self-Nerdliness?
Wow, what a crazy ride!! I was about to have a heart attack the first day due to registration delays, but we got things back on track.
It was crowded, loud, hectic, and fun! We grew too fast and we were under-staffed, but we ended just barely behind schedule after a late start.
Fantasy had 50 players! 40K had 144! Wow, what a big increase over last year!
I am still just trying to get my head screwed back on after all the craziness. Thanks so much to all the guys that helped set up and break down as that is a HUGE task and the help was much appreciated.
Big news, of course, is that a female won the 40K championships! Liz Foster, a local girl who is a very good player and a cool person, went toe to toe with some EXCELLENT players, every single round. She faced Alan Bajromovic in the finals (winner of the ET singles and WargamesCon), and defeated him in a GREAT game. There was a huge crowd watching, and everyone was cheering with every roll of the dice, it was so much fun! She is the FIRST truly undefeated (7-0) player we've ever had at the BAO, so that is momentous in more than one way!
In the end, Liz pulled it off, and won. The first girl to win a major, competitive GT (to my knowledge), and she did it the hard way, fighting through some tough comp. Well done Liz! Way to break the gender stereotype! Alan, a Zero Comp Teammate and a fierce competitor, took the loss in stride and played the game like a true gentleman, a smile never leaving his face even in defeat. The Belt of Russ, our super, over-the-tops, WWF style "masculine" trophy was won for the first time by a girl! Hahaha, that is awesome!
The narrative guys played a great game too, with so many awesome, beautiful models, it was crazy! Looked like a great time.
In all, we had some serious issues with logistics this year (we grew too fast this year), we will fix those problems. We're focusing on turning the weaknesses we had this year into strengths next year. What we get criticized on now, we will be complimented on next year!
Thanks to everyone for coming out, we plan to only improve, grow and get more fun as time goes by!
Any and all criticism is welcome, send me a PM, post it here, come in the store, whatever. Help us to see how we can improve our game and make our events better!
Thanks, and another one under our belt! Results will go up tomorrow.
+The event location. A lot of people dis the fairgrounds, but I actually think it's a great place for a tournament. The more "open" environment prevents the place from getting stuffy despite hundreds of people in a somewhat limited space. I actually like dkellyj's idea of maybe running the event outside, which IMO would be even better, but there are obvious logistical issues with that-- the most pressing being night!
+The missions were excellent, they were probably the best I've ever seen at any tournament and really lent themselves to strategic thinking and tight games.
+Good terrain. This is a key weakness at many events, but you guys were on the ball. Every table I was on had excellent amounts of terrain. Other events should look at pictures of your guys' boards to see how to run terrain in 6th edition.
+Forge World. I'm gonna say it right now, this event convinced me that I was wrong in my initial assessment and Forge World is totally fine for normal play. People were bringing pretty "serious" stuff and the games went fine. That said I will point out that this was only possible thanks to your guys' aforementioned good terrain. In games with insufficient terrain, especially insufficient tall terrain, the prevalence of Skyfire and Interceptor weapons available via Forge World seems perhaps too strong.
+I loved the Best Of awards (and not just because I won one)
+All of my opponents! Seven games, all good sports (win or lose), all very fun people to play with, no thumbs downs required!
+Reece, Frankie, and the rest of the crew for putting on a great event!
Slops:
-The registration delay day one was frustrating-- you've already touched on that, no need to go into it more.
-I had heard that there were going to be food trucks at the event and there weren't. No big deal for me because I'm fine with pizza, but more variety would have been nice, especially for those with dietary restrictions.
-The sound system was jacked up and made it hard to hear announcements. This was especially annoying when it came to time checks, which are pretty critical! A projector at the back part of the hall with a timer would have been really useful also, as there were several situations where I wanted to know how much time was left (especially when it was down to the wire) and we just didn't have time to run to the front of the hall and look at the timer, especially under the cramped conditions.
Recommendations:
~A "Best Sportsman," "Favorite Opponent," or similar would be cool, where people cast a vote for whoever they thought was most sportsmanlike/most enjoyed playing with at the end, and whoever has the most accumulated votes wins. This type of thing encourages polite play-- not that anyone I saw needed any encouragement!
~Consider revisiting the flyer 180 degree vertical line of sight ruling. I totally understand why you guys did this, but contrary to predicted effects it played a role in two out of three games that I faced enemy flyers in, allowing shots that would typically be prohibited.
~More time for games would be really, really appreciated. Of the seven games I played, only one of them finished by rolling to end the game, with the remaining six games either ending on turn four or on turn five without rolling for turn six. Even an extra 15 minutes would often mean an extra game turn, since the later turns tend to be faster anyway. One other unusual thing to consider is dropping to 1500 points-- not sure if you guys would want to do that, but I would strongly consider it. While 1500 points is low the designers have built the game and Codexes around it and I think there are a lot of interesting choices to be made at that level.
Overall this was a great tournament. I had seven great games and really enjoyed things. Overall I would say BAO 2013 is probably the most fun I've had at major tournament to date, so big thanks to Reece, Frankie, and all the other organizers. Hopefully I'll be back next year for BAO 2014!
It was a blast. I found out about a whole different stores there that are better then my current one(Frontline, you got yourself a regular customer). Im going to more tournaments now.
Im only sad i didnt get to face tyranids or SOB, those are the only armies I have yet to face.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I noticed, you copy and pasted alot from the Singles into the Doubles. This lead to quite a bit of confusion. I thought that allies was part of it, and if you where playing 2 different codex's that you had to use the rules for the allies matrix..
It was very confusing.
Does anyone know where to get that turn counter in the pic all the way to the right in the first row. It's a dark angels army with 2 drop pods and bikes.
Does anyone know where to get that turn counter in the pic all the way to the right in the first row. It's a dark angels army with 2 drop pods and bikes.
The black one?
It was the BAO 2012 swag. Contact reecius for one.
I had a great time with 7 fun games and many difficult opponents. Thanks for the fun GT Reece and gratz to Liz.
Last year at the BAO I did well, got plenty of complements on the look of my traitor mech IG, but my custom vendettas aesthetically bombed so bad they made the army as a whole look bad. The idea of small scale silver towers of Tzeentch running around as vendettas sounded good in my head, so I got to work. Towers became to unstable to play with, so the models became floating rocks, and I completely bombed in the execution of creating them. Unhappy with the models I ended up throwing them away after 2012's BAO and started over from scratch with a new concept of a giant oversize double headed double tailed screamer of Tzeentch. It worked so well a couple of months ago that after seeing the UberScreamer at tournament in Temecula (near San Diego) a couple of players complemented me on it then proceeded to trash talk the floating rocks I brought to the BAO in 2012 not knowing I was the jackass who made those abominations before taking them out of this world. Then yesterday at this year's BAO I won something I thought I would never in my life see, Renaissance man. After looking through some of last year's pictures of the floating rocks in action compared to the uber screamer now I feel like I have just came out of the dark ages. Thanks for the games to all of my opponents, and to anyone feeling a bit down in they bombed in 1 way or another just remember no matter how bad anything went this year they can go really well next year.
schadenfreude wrote: I had a great time with 7 fun games and many difficult opponents. Thanks for the fun GT Reece and gratz to Liz.
Last year at the BAO I did well, got plenty of complements on the look of my traitor mech IG, but my custom vendettas aesthetically bombed so bad they made the army as a whole look bad. The idea of small scale silver towers of Tzeentch running around as vendettas sounded good in my head, so I got to work. Towers became to unstable to play with, so the models became floating rocks, and I completely bombed in the execution of creating them. Unhappy with the models I ended up throwing them away after 2012's BAO and started over from scratch with a new concept of a giant oversize double headed double tailed screamer of Tzeentch. It worked so well a couple of months ago that after seeing the UberScreamer at tournament in Temecula (near San Diego) a couple of players complemented me on it then proceeded to trash talk the floating rocks I brought to the BAO in 2012 not knowing I was the jackass who made those abominations before taking them out of this world. Then yesterday at this year's BAO I won something I thought I would never in my life see, Renaissance man. After looking through some of last year's pictures of the floating rocks in action compared to the uber screamer now I feel like I have just came out of the dark ages. Thanks for the games to all of my opponents, and to anyone feeling a bit down in they bombed in 1 way or another just remember no matter how bad anything went this year they can go really well next year.
I actually played against her at last year's BAO in 5th edition (before the Daemons got their WD tweak) and ended up winning that game pretty handily, but she was an absolute class player the whole way and took it like a champ, so it is fantastic to see her on the opposite end of the spectrum winning it all in an absolutely spectacular fashion.
Anyone saying that Daemons are perhaps too powerful in their pre-6th edition incarnation is missing the point...that codex, by its very nature is incredibly random. So for someone to go a perfect 7-0 means that they're able to whether all that crazy luck and still come out on top.
So yeah, great, awesome, result and hopefully it goes a long way towards shattering idiotic stereotypes and all that junk.
Post text removed for being extremely rude. If you would like to bring up an issue involving another player, please do so in a polite fashion, even if you feel that they don't deserve it. --yakface
~Consider revisiting the flyer 180 degree vertical line of sight ruling. I totally understand why you guys did this, but contrary to predicted effects it played a role in two out of three games that I faced enemy flyers in, allowing shots that would typically be prohibited.
Can you please elaborate on the in-game situations you describe? The more detail the better.
~Consider revisiting the flyer 180 degree vertical line of sight ruling. I totally understand why you guys did this, but contrary to predicted effects it played a role in two out of three games that I faced enemy flyers in, allowing shots that would typically be prohibited.
Can you please elaborate on the in-game situations you describe? The more detail the better.
I had a Vendetta go into hover mode, and shoot straight down at the Doom of Malan'tai, 1" from the Vendettas base. Later, a different Vendetta Zoomed over and shot straight down at some Termagants sitting on an objective, again 1" away from the Vendetta's base (the following turn, the Vendetta off-loaded passengers, which made its relative position extremely important).
Janthkin wrote: I had a Vendetta go into hover mode, and shoot straight down at the Doom of Malan'tai, 1" from the Vendettas base. Later, a different Vendetta Zoomed over and shot straight down at some Termagants sitting on an objective, again 1" away from the Vendetta's base (the following turn, the Vendetta off-loaded passengers, which made its relative position extremely important).
Obviously flyers shooting straight down is not an example that needs to be given...that was the point of the ruling.
Instead, I'm looking for specific examples where the player would not have been able to simply alter their location to get those same shots in some variety.
Your 2nd example you say that the Vendetta then off-loaded passengers, but would the model having to be back a few inches to get the shots really have changed the ability for the models to disembark and claim the objective?
The more specific examples of things that happened that could not possibly have happened otherwise (if the ruling was not in effect and the player controlling the flyers could not have done something slightly differently to achieve the same results), the better.
@SCP Thanks. Everyone I played this year was cool, even the guy who beat me like a read headed stepchild.
@ Jantkin It's very understandable for the 180 degree rule to be upsetting in your situation, however other factors help balance out the meta. First and foremost with the presence of forgeworld ack ack meant Cron air stayed home, and the couple lists that had 3 or flyers weren't at the top tables. That means nids have to deal with fewer flyers.
Having a vendetta the only time the the 180 rule effected me was in my round against sisters a Vendetta with heavy bolters was able to go into hover mode, move 12" and rear shot an exorcist that was already down 1 hull point instead of going 6" and giving the exorcist a side shot against AV11. The difference was minuscule, it blew up without needing the AV10, and in hindsight math hammer favors the side shot.
Most importantly to me was I had no arguments over what a 22.5 degree down angle is. I didn't have to model my flyer at a 22.5 degree down angle to reduce it's minimum range from about 12" to about 3" while maintaining no penalty to it's maximum range. I didn't have to use a level and a protractor to find an exact 22.5 degree angle when attaching my flyer to it's base. I didn't have to argue if modeling the angle a flyer flies at is modeling for advantage. I didn't have to argue anything, or waste time in calculating or debating what a 45 degree arc without bringing the proper tools to accurately measure the firing arc of a flyer. All I had to do was move models, roll dice, and have fun.
~Consider revisiting the flyer 180 degree vertical line of sight ruling. I totally understand why you guys did this, but contrary to predicted effects it played a role in two out of three games that I faced enemy flyers in, allowing shots that would typically be prohibited.
Can you please elaborate on the in-game situations you describe? The more detail the better.
In one game, I had a unit of Scouts about 19" away from a Dakkajet, which moved to about 1" away and fired down on them, killing several. The rulebook flyer rules would not allow this attack and the Dakkajet would not be able to move into position to attack the Scouts because it has to move at least 18." Ultimately my opponent wasn't able to kill all the Scouts, so it didn't cost me the game, but with different dice it could have. I don't remember the specifics of the other event and it's possible my opponent in that game could have moved differently to get the same shot he took. My impression at the time was that cramped board space meant that he couldn't have done it without the FAQ allowing him to approach closer than normally allowed and still get shots.
I ended up winning both of those games and I'm not sour about it at all, but predictions about the ruling having no effect were not borne out in my experience.
Most importantly to me was I had no arguments over what a 22.5 degree down angle is. I didn't have to model my flyer at a 22.5 degree down angle to reduce it's minimum range from about 12" to about 3" while maintaining no penalty to it's maximum range. I didn't have to use a level and a protractor to find an exact 22.5 degree angle when attaching my flyer to it's base. I didn't have to argue if modeling the angle a flyer flies at is modeling for advantage. I didn't have to argue anything, or waste time in calculating or debating what a 45 degree arc without bringing the proper tools to accurately measure the firing arc of a flyer. All I had to do was move models, roll dice, and have fun.
Janthkin wrote: I had a Vendetta go into hover mode, and shoot straight down at the Doom of Malan'tai, 1" from the Vendettas base. Later, a different Vendetta Zoomed over and shot straight down at some Termagants sitting on an objective, again 1" away from the Vendetta's base (the following turn, the Vendetta off-loaded passengers, which made its relative position extremely important).
Obviously flyers shooting straight down is not an example that needs to be given...that was the point of the ruling.
Instead, I'm looking for specific examples where the player would not have been able to simply alter their location to get those same shots in some variety.
Your 2nd example you say that the Vendetta then off-loaded passengers, but would the model having to be back a few inches to get the shots really have changed the ability for the models to disembark and claim the objective?
The more specific examples of things that happened that could not possibly have happened otherwise (if the ruling was not in effect and the player controlling the flyers could not have done something slightly differently to achieve the same results), the better.
Ah. More specifics, then:
In the first example, the Vendetta could not have shot the Doom at all that turn, but for this ruling. It couldn't have lined up for a shot any other way - we were near a corner, with tall impassable terrain nearby, and other models on the ground would have kept it from backing off far enough to get a shot using "normal" weapon angle rules. (Zooming wouldn't have worked - he would have overflown the Doom by about 14", and couldn't shoot backwards.)
In the second example, the Termagants he was shooting at were at the base of a ruin - no LoS from most angles, including the angle the Vendetta was approaching from - it stopped literally right over their heads. But for this ruling, the Vendetta could not have affected the Termagant unit at all. (He also needed to be able to disembark his Troops the next turn near the objective, which he couldn't have done had he held back - they would not have been able to disembark & reach the objective.)
I was an anomaly at this event - I encountered relatively few fliers (1 Night Scythe, 2 Storm Talons, 2 Vendettas). In 1/3 of the games where I saw fliers, this ruling played a part.
schadenfreude wrote: @ Jantkin It's very understandable for the 180 degree rule to be upsetting in your situation, however other factors help balance out the meta. First and foremost with the presence of forgeworld ack ack meant Cron air stayed home, and the couple lists that had 3 or flyers weren't at the top tables. That means nids have to deal with fewer flyers.
No emotional content here; I'm not upset. I do disagree with the ruling, and provided my experiences with it per Yak's request.
Sabre defense platforms did far more injury to my Tyranids than anything the fliers I encountered did. Ouch.
schadenfreude wrote: I didn't have to model my flyer at a 22.5 degree down angle to reduce it's minimum range from about 12" to about 3" while maintaining no penalty to it's maximum range
So in other words, you didn't have to model for your advantage to maximize your firing capability.
Post text removed for being extremely rude. If you would like to bring up an issue involving another player, please do so in a polite fashion, even if you feel that they don't deserve it. --yakface
I guess a "my bad" is in order, so my bad. I will try to rephrase it more diplomatically. I was really just asking in too direct a fashion (mostly of reece and crew), something that really deserved a much more nebulous, general question. So what I'd like to know is, when some of the more "soft" prizes were given out, I'd like to understand the criteria for them being handed out. Specifically one prize, but I mean I guess you could ask it of ALL the prizes so as not to offend anyone.. Would any of your awards at the end have been given to reward such behavior such as profuse swearing, yelling, cheating, and dramatic arm movements? I'm guessing this one in particular was given ironically, but maybe I was alone in witnessing said behaviors, and in my tiredness failed to report it. Still I feel it would be a shame to let that kind of thing go completely unremarked. As I'm pretty sure we would all like to join an event that rewarded behavior like that, I feel it might be a very stress relieving activity!
So sorry again for being a little too direct, typing from a phone, you know? I really need to take it easy and give these things the time they deserve.
I guess a "my bad" is in order, so my bad. I will try to rephrase it more diplomatically. I was really just asking in too direct a fashion (mostly of reece and crew), something that really deserved a much more nebulous, general question. So what I'd like to know is, when some of the more "soft" prizes were given out, I'd like to understand the criteria for them being handed out. Specifically one prize, but I mean I guess you could ask it of ALL the prizes so as not to offend anyone.. Would any of your awards at the end have been given to reward such behavior such as profuse swearing, yelling, cheating, and dramatic arm movements? I'm guessing this one in particular was given ironically, but maybe I was alone in witnessing said behaviors, and in my tiredness failed to report it. Still I feel it would be a shame to let that kind of thing go completely unremarked. As I'm pretty sure we would all like to join an event that rewarded behavior like that, I feel it might be a very stress relieving activity!
So sorry again for being a little too direct, typing from a phone, you know? I really need to take it easy and give these things the time they deserve.
Prizes at tournaments are very seldom handed out in an ironic fashion, and if they are it is usually done so very clearly tongue-in-cheek.
So if you have an actual issue with someone that you feel didn't deserve said award, then you should probably contact Reece directly and let him know what you experienced. And in the future, if you encounter someone who you feel legitimately deserves low marks for something by the rules given for the event, then by all means you should give them low marks. *Not* marking someone down and then complaining after the fact helps neither you, the person who was displaying bad behavior or the event in general.
Post text removed for being extremely rude. If you would like to bring up an issue involving another player, please do so in a polite fashion, even if you feel that they don't deserve it. --yakface
I guess a "my bad" is in order, so my bad. I will try to rephrase it more diplomatically. I was really just asking in too direct a fashion (mostly of reece and crew), something that really deserved a much more nebulous, general question. So what I'd like to know is, when some of the more "soft" prizes were given out, I'd like to understand the criteria for them being handed out. Specifically one prize, but I mean I guess you could ask it of ALL the prizes so as not to offend anyone.. Would any of your awards at the end have been given to reward such behavior such as profuse swearing, yelling, cheating, and dramatic arm movements? I'm guessing this one in particular was given ironically, but maybe I was alone in witnessing said behaviors, and in my tiredness failed to report it. Still I feel it would be a shame to let that kind of thing go completely unremarked. As I'm pretty sure we would all like to join an event that rewarded behavior like that, I feel it might be a very stress relieving activity!
So sorry again for being a little too direct, typing from a phone, you know? I really need to take it easy and give these things the time they deserve.
BAO rules packet was extremely clear in deciding whether a player deserves a thumbs up or thumbs down. The criteria for a thumbs down included:
-Being 15 or more minutes late to a round
-Verbally abusive or insulting
-Intentionally cheating
-Slow playing
There's a series of penalties for each thumbs down a player receives. There are four penalty levels based on the number of thumbs down received. First one is turning the thumbs down player's win to a lost. Second is the first in addition to being disqualified from prize support. Third and fourth is expulsion from the event, the later being no refund. This system deters unsportsmanlike behaviors.
Overall for my experience at my first and probably last BAO was really not a pleasant one. This being only my second main tournament I was intially disappointed with the venue being placed in a barn in a run down park in what appeared to be a bad part of town. I dont know if it was because my first tournament was at Duel Con which was held in a very nice hotel. Secondly I performed pretty badly with my Orks having gone 0-3 in the team tournament and 1-5 in the singles. The massive amount of weaponry that ignored cover meta was just too harsh for what many would call a good balanced tournament list. There were many games where I didn't get saves of any kind and it just seemed like I could have played on a blank table with no terrain whatsoever and it would not have changed much. Dual thunderfire cannons, double-triple heldrakes, forgeworld collossus', noise marines, drop podding armies with lots of flamers is just too rough for Orks right now. Thirdly the venue was far too small for the amount of people that were there. Given the "girth" of a good majority of the people that were there it made moving around almost impossible and good luck playing a game with someone directly behind you the entire time. Mentally and physically it was exhausting and given the 14 hour drive it took for me to get there in my opinion just was not worth it for me. I am glad to have met some great people and to have gotten to say hello to friendly faces I have met at Duel Con. Please do not let my personal experience disuade you from future attendance do experience it for yourself as everyone takes what they want from their own experiences. Thanks to Reece, Frankie and everyone else involved with running this event. I will be looking forward to Duel Con this year!
MightyGodzilla wrote: It just occurred to me that I didn't ask anyone at BAO who they were on Dakka. It would have been nice to put more faces to names.
At the doubles i meet some. People actually recognized me because of my costume
Prizes at tournaments are very seldom handed out in an ironic fashion, and if they are it is usually done so very clearly tongue-in-cheek.
So if you have an actual issue with someone that you feel didn't deserve said award, then you should probably contact Reece directly and let him know what you experienced. And in the future, if you encounter someone who you feel legitimately deserves low marks for something by the rules given for the event, then by all means you should give them low marks. *Not* marking someone down and then complaining after the fact helps neither you, the person who was displaying bad behavior or the event in general.
Yeah this was my bad, after messaging Reece he said there was no prize for best sports. Which is what I thought at the beginning. But they handed out all the best army prizes, and then afterward during the painting prizes and such handed out what sounded like best sports. But I think Reece just forgot the order or something, and his voice was giving out by then and it was noisy. So I think the prize was actually best ORKS, which makes more sense. So my bad, sorry to waste this much board space.
Nope, I haven't played SoB much this edition. I know the army you are talking about though. That was a beautifully painted SoB army. I heard there were 5 SoB players at the tournament.
I brought my Tau-Orks army. I believe I'm the only one who ran that combo.
No, there were several others who brought Torks. Got photos which I will probably be posting in my BAO batrep thread tomorrow.
Reecius just posted the 40k Championship results. I don't see anyone else running Tau/Orks combo. Perhaps the Orks or Tau were decorations for display?
Drats, George beat me by 15 points for best overall Tau player and 1 point in Battle Points. So close!
MightyGodzilla wrote: It just occurred to me that I didn't ask anyone at BAO who they were on Dakka. It would have been nice to put more faces to names.
At the doubles i meet some. People actually recognized me because of my costume
Costume? You didn't dress like Twilight Sparkle did you? Because honestly until I meet a person IRL I mentally them as their avatar. So Kronk is literally Will Farrell the cowbell pirate, Killkrazy a small Asian girl, HBMC a whirling comissarr, etc etc.... I swear if saw someone wearing a purple horn, I'd have come up and introduced myself.
Voodoo wrote: Post text removed for being extremely rude. If you would like to bring up an issue involving another player, please do so in a polite fashion, even if you feel that they don't deserve it. --yakface
profuse swearing, yelling, cheating and dramatic arm movements?
Except for the cheating, ** , I'm guilty of every one of these.
I roared in joy, arghed in agony. High fived opponents on *their* successes. I shot up my arms in V for Victory. And yep, swore. Not quite like my buddies who came with me (ex-navy?) . Pretty far away from Quentin Tarantino, but at least normal rated "R".
I was boisterous. I was loud. I had fun. Two opponents were wet blankets from the intro "My name is"/handshake onward, and I acccordingly toned it down.
Opponents 1, 3, 4 & 6 smiled and enjoyed themselves.
#2 was really mellow and calm. A quiet fellow and I brought it down to match him. My buddy played him later on and stated it was the same.
#5 quit at the end of Turn 1; he looked unhappy/serious from the start, and was demoralized when I destroyed 500 points of stuff on Turn 1. I didn't have the chance to be excited or boisterous.
There was no #7. I chose a 10 PM bedtime (instead of after midnight) after having to drive home to Los Angeles.
My point Voodoo, as I'm (hopefully) politely making, is that with 150 dudes in a room, testosterone is going to come forth, bad words being a product of that. We are getting out our baser, more brutal violent nature ... with plastic spacemen and dice. I think if we went back 80,000 or 800 years in time, there'd still be profuse swearing and dramatic arm gestures after bringing down an elk, deer, or, having just killed an enemy tribesman.
Still, I'm genuinely bummed that you had somebody who would direct anger (profuse swearing) when his game was going crappy (or otherwise).
I guess you know to expect swearing, "WAAAGH!" Wolf Howls and other celebratory outbursts. And hey, if it's causing a headache, ask the opponent to tone it down.
And report those cheaters!
**
I screwed up the FNP/Force Weapon sequence and was able to whack/ID Corbulo with my Rune Priest, not working in the chance for Corby's FNP. I did catch up with that opponent the next day, tell him I screwed up (we had a Draw) and he *still* put out his hand, said 'thanks' for telling him, and he wished me good luck for the day!
I tied for 7th in Appearance Score! I know that "Top 10 Painting Score" doesn't have the same ring as "Top 10 Battle Score" but that definitely met my major goal for the weekend (the secondary goal was "Top Eldar" but I played like ass. )
Thanks for hosting the event, organizers! This was my first two-day event since GTLos Angeles in like 1998, and I had a good time. I wasn't even too annoyed at the registration delay (since honestly that was more likely the fault of the fairgrounds having the front gate closed so people had to hunt for the event), but I'll definitely be looking forward to it moving to a location with a carpeted floor next year.
I screwed up the FNP/Force Weapon sequence and was able to whack/ID Corbulo with my Rune Priest, not working in the chance for Corby's FNP. I did catch up with that opponent the next day, tell him I screwed up (we had a Draw) and he *still* put out his hand, said 'thanks' for telling him, and he wished me good luck for the day!
Actually, GW's FAQ says that Force Weapon activation happens before FNP, so if you get the Force Weapon activated then FNP cannot be used as the wounds now inflict instant death.
So unless I'm misunderstanding, it sounds like you played it RIGHT on the first day.
I tied for 7th in Appearance Score! I know that "Top 10 Painting Score" doesn't have the same ring as "Top 10 Battle Score" but that definitely met my major goal for the weekend (the secondary goal was "Top Eldar" but I played like ass. )
Congrats! You really did have a beautifully painted Eldar army. The custom made cards for keeping track of psychic powers and warlord traits was a nice touch.
MightyGodzilla wrote: It just occurred to me that I didn't ask anyone at BAO who they were on Dakka. It would have been nice to put more faces to names.
At the doubles i meet some. People actually recognized me because of my costume
Costume? You didn't dress like Twilight Sparkle did you? Because honestly until I meet a person IRL I mentally them as their avatar. So Kronk is literally Will Farrell the cowbell pirate, Killkrazy a small Asian girl, HBMC a whirling comissarr, etc etc.... I swear if saw someone wearing a purple horn, I'd have come up and introduced myself.
Where you at the doubles? Because i was the guy in the commissar costume with the hat that had the stars.
Nope, I haven't played SoB much this edition. I know the army you are talking about though. That was a beautifully painted SoB army. I heard there were 5 SoB players at the tournament.
I brought my Tau-Orks army. I believe I'm the only one who ran that combo.
No, there were several others who brought Torks. Got photos which I will probably be posting in my BAO batrep thread tomorrow.
Reecius just posted the 40k Championship results. I don't see anyone else running Tau/Orks combo. Perhaps the Orks or Tau were decorations for display?
Drats, George beat me by 15 points for best overall Tau player and 1 point in Battle Points. So close!
I thought I had more pictures but this was the only one I could find:
BTW, this is SabrX's army (pictured below). SabrX, congrats on a very successful tournament run with an army you had very little practice with. The Torks are definitely a force to be reckoned with.
Voodoo wrote: Post text removed for being extremely rude. If you would like to bring up an issue involving another player, please do so in a polite fashion, even if you feel that they don't deserve it. --yakface
Opponents 1, 3, 4 & 6 smiled and enjoyed themselves.
#2 was really mellow and calm. A quiet fellow and I brought it down to match him. My buddy played him later on and stated it was the same.
#5 quit at the end of Turn 1; he looked unhappy/serious from the start, and was demoralized when I destroyed 500 points of stuff on Turn 1. I didn't have the chance to be excited or boisterous.
There was no #7. I chose a 10 PM bedtime (instead of after midnight) after having to drive home to Los Angeles.
My point Voodoo, as I'm (hopefully) politely making, is that with 150 dudes in a room, testosterone is going to come forth, bad words being a product of that. We are getting out our baser, more brutal violent nature ... with plastic spacemen and dice. I think if we went back 80,000 or 800 years in time, there'd still be profuse swearing and dramatic arm gestures after bringing down an elk, deer, or, having just killed an enemy tribesman.
Still, I'm genuinely bummed that you had somebody who would direct anger (profuse swearing) when his game was going crappy (or otherwise).
Lol, dude anyone thats ever played you (and I have) knows you're there to have a good time you're awesome to play, You could yell and scream all you wanted and it wouldn't annoy me, because I know it would be in good fun. Glad you had a blast.
Nope, I haven't played SoB much this edition. I know the army you are talking about though. That was a beautifully painted SoB army. I heard there were 5 SoB players at the tournament.
I brought my Tau-Orks army. I believe I'm the only one who ran that combo.
No, there were several others who brought Torks. Got photos which I will probably be posting in my BAO batrep thread tomorrow.
Reecius just posted the 40k Championship results. I don't see anyone else running Tau/Orks combo. Perhaps the Orks or Tau were decorations for display?
Drats, George beat me by 15 points for best overall Tau player and 1 point in Battle Points. So close!
I thought I had more pictures but this was the only one I could find:
BTW, this is SabrX's army (pictured below). SabrX, congrats on a very successful tournament run with an army you had very little practice with. The Torks are definitely a force to be reckoned with.
Wow, now I remember! I guess a lot of players listed their primary and didn't mention ally detachment. KFF Big Mek would have been useful on some of the tables.
I look forward to looking at the rest of your uploaded pics. A lot of my pics aren't good due to poor lighting.
Voodoo wrote: Lol, dude anyone thats ever played you (and I have) knows you're there to have a good time you're awesome to play, You could yell and scream all you wanted and it wouldn't annoy me, because I know it would be in good fun. Glad you had a blast.
I will humbly accept that compliment.
...
'Course, now I'm trying to figure out who you are.
- - - - - - - - - - - --
A general note:
Liz set up her army during registration right next to mine and I now kick myself for not commenting on the army's conversions and at least introducing myself. I congratulated her on FB and I do so here, to.
Wow, now I remember! I guess a lot of players listed their primary and didn't mention ally detachment. KFF Big Mek would have been useful on some of the tables.
I look forward to looking at the rest of your uploaded pics. A lot of my pics aren't good due to poor lighting.
Yeah, my camera rocks! Most of my pictures came out awesome even in the poor lighting.
For those who want to check out the armies and my BAO experience, you can find them in my thread:
38 out of 40 appearance points, hell Ill take it. That puts me at 88th over all and 3rd best appearance out of 144. Yes please, we'll have to revamp some painting stuff for next year.
Thanks to everyone I played and the TO's. It was a great event.
driving from tucson az. to northern cali was a ride but I would like to thank everyone who made this event fun and and awsome i will come back anytime and hopefully next year i can play. i would also like to thank all the people who made my job judging all the army paint scores easy thank you very much for the most part it was very easy and fun even tho there was a couple......yea you kno those guys.
Alan Bajramovic and Lyzz Foster in the finals of the BAO 2013. Lyzz and her Daemons (5th ed book) vs. Alan’s Imperial Guard and Space Wolves. 1750pts, for all the marbles, both players undefeated!
After watching the video I came down to the conclusion that she must have had super hot dice the entire tournament. Causing 17 wounds out of 21 shots and making 10 out of 11 saves on the pink horrors. I remember playing against her in the team tournament and it seemed that way when we played cause I like to crunch the numbers in my head when dice are being thrown and I took note on a lot of above average occurences. I would be very curious also how many times a mishap happened. Back to the drawing boards with all you daemon players as the new codex has changed quite a lot of things.
I spread warp quake across the entire board and she only had a small corner to land in due to vangard strike. She hit on 5 out of 6 deep strikes.
Her dice were so good that when she did a fly-over attack with her screamers she did one hit less than maximum and I said "Well, at least you did not get everything to hit"
I'd like to know what Liz's thought process was when deciding to go first, as it was her choice. It doesn't make any sense to me, for three reasons:
A) Daemons almost always want to go second. Going first as a Daemon player gives your opponent an extra turn of shooting against your army, whereas if your opponent goes first, all they have to gain is a small amount of positioning.
The only time I would go first, as a Daemon player, is against Grey Knights, so as to not allow them the chance to get Warp Quake up and running. Also, if I noticed that my opponent made some terrible mistakes while deploying, I would try to steal the initiative so that I could take advantage of it without allowing them the chance to fix their mistakes.
Obviously, Alan was not playing Grey Knights.
B) This same concept can be applied to drop pod armies. Against drop pod armies, you want to go second in order to give yourself an extra turn of shooting. Moreso, with Daemons, if a drop pod army has to go first against you, they're essentially forced to guess where best to position themselves, nullifying any mobility advantage the pods would otherwise grant them.
However, in objective missions, there is the possibility that a drop pod army can block you off from the objectives before you have a chance to get there. This could potentially be a concern, as Liz would have had to waste a round of flamers/screamers taking out non-threatening drop pods, though it is quite hard to actually pull off.
C) On an objective mission, you almost ALWAYS want to go second if you feel your army has enough resiliency to make it out of the first turn with a functioning army. Being able to grab an objective on the last turn, without giving your opponent the chance to respond, is absolutely priceless in a mission where the only two victory conditions are both objective based.
This is the big one, and is almost unforgiveable considering my first two points.
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Not to take anything away from Liz, you can't make it undefeated through seven rounds in a swiss style tournament featuring many of the countries top players without being a heck of a player. I just don't understand this particular decision.
hippesthippo wrote: I'd like to know what Liz's thought process was when deciding to go first, as it was her choice. It doesn't make any sense to me, for three reasons:
A) Daemons almost always want to go second. Going first as a Daemon player gives your opponent an extra turn of shooting against your army, whereas if your opponent goes first, all they have to gain is a small amount of positioning.
The only time I would go first, as a Daemon player, is against Grey Knights, so as to not allow them the chance to get Warp Quake up and running. Also, if I noticed that my opponent made some terrible mistakes while deploying, I would try to steal the initiative so that I could take advantage of it without allowing them the chance to fix their mistakes.
Obviously, Alan was not playing Grey Knights.
B) This same concept can be applied to drop pod armies. Against drop pod armies, you want to go second in order to give yourself an extra turn of shooting. Moreso, with Daemons, if a drop pod army has to go first against you, they're essentially forced to guess where best to position themselves, nullifying any mobility advantage the pods would otherwise grant them.
However, in objective missions, there is the possibility that a drop pod army can block you off from the objectives before you have a chance to get there. This could potentially be a concern, as Liz would have had to waste a round of flamers/screamers taking out non-threatening drop pods, though it is quite hard to actually pull off.
C) On an objective mission, you almost ALWAYS want to go second if you feel your army has enough resiliency to make it out of the first turn with a functioning army. Being able to grab an objective on the last turn, without giving your opponent the chance to respond, is absolutely priceless in a mission where the only two victory conditions are both objective based.
This is the big one, and is almost unforgiveable considering my first two points.
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Not to take anything away from Liz, you can't make it undefeated through seven rounds in a swiss style tournament featuring many of the countries top players without being a heck of a player. I just don't understand this particular decision.
Well, she doesn't post here to my knowledge, so its unlikely you'll get any direct answer.
My guess would be the simple issue of the opponent performing area denial with Drop Pod units. This army could have done some pretty nasty area denial with first turn because the firebase blob could have spread out and then the pods can come in leaving a gap in the middle of the board between them and the firebase where any DS there would be risky (surrounded on all sides), which would have really pushed her deployment way out onto the fringes far away from the firebase (which she obviously wanted to be able to get to.
Its certainly unconventional, but she has been playing Daemons for years now so she probably recognizes the situations where table space denial is a worse of a threat than the opponent's firepower and I guess she deemed this to be one of those times.
I know there have been a few times playing Daemons where I thought there was no logical reason to go first only to see my opponent fan out and cover so much of the board on the 1st turn that it essentially costs me the game when a few units either end up mishapping or come down so far out of position they never really play a meaningful part in the game.
schadenfreude wrote: I didn't have to model my flyer at a 22.5 degree down angle to reduce it's minimum range from about 12" to about 3" while maintaining no penalty to it's maximum range
So in other words, you didn't have to model for your advantage to maximize your firing capability.
Yeah, it sounds like there are two types of people: People who used/abused the ruling and took full advantage, and people who got screwed by it.
The simple fact that competitive players have the attitude of "I didn't have to model my flyer at a 22.5 degree down angle to reduce it's minimum range from about 12" to about 3" while maintaining no penalty to it's maximum range" is awfully telling why we have arguments in the first place and who this ruling catered to. People argue because they are purposefully trying to play the rule wrong or MFA. A simple enforcement of the rules handles cheaters or people who don't know the rules much easier than letting them get their way.
I hope this rule doesn't make it to anything on the east coast.
nkelsch wrote: Yeah, it sounds like there are two types of people: People who used/abused the ruling and took full advantage, and people who got screwed by it.
The simple fact that competitive players have the attitude of "I didn't have to model my flyer at a 22.5 degree down angle to reduce it's minimum range from about 12" to about 3" while maintaining no penalty to it's maximum range" is awfully telling why we have arguments in the first place and who this ruling catered to. People argue because they are purposefully trying to play the rule wrong or MFA. A simple enforcement of the rules handles cheaters or people who don't know the rules much easier than letting them get their way.
I hope this rule doesn't make it to anything on the east coast.
It'd be nice if we could discuss this without imparting motives to either side of the discussion, or trying to divide the entire 40k playerbase into "us" and "them," with lots of negative attributes associated with "them."
i have played Lyzz many many time in Sacramento and played her 6th Round of BAO. She has changed her philosophy of playing Daemons to being very aggressive. She used to play rather passively. I and other players have talked with her and she has heeded some advice and changed her game accordingly.
I agree with her choice to go first. Alan had all of his weaker back field units in the open and ready to be destroyed. if she had gone second, alan could have podded in front of the ADL or created some sort of defensive perimeter aroudn the ADL forceing Lyzz to DS otuside where she wanted to.
Also, by going first, Alan didnt have 30 marines on the table. she put him in a defensive position on the get go. he had to play defensively rather than offensively podding in and being able to absorb all of her firepower.
Lastly, i am sure she wanted to get those Sabres down so her Bloodthirster could come in and just smash things around. Obviously that didnt happen.
I think she played it right and obviously took care of business.
Well, she doesn't post here to my knowledge, so its unlikely you'll get any direct answer.
My guess would be the simple issue of the opponent performing area denial with Drop Pod units. This army could have done some pretty nasty area denial with first turn because the firebase blob could have spread out and then the pods can come in leaving a gap in the middle of the board between them and the firebase where any DS there would be risky (surrounded on all sides), which would have really pushed her deployment way out onto the fringes far away from the firebase (which she obviously wanted to be able to get to.
Its certainly unconventional, but she has been playing Daemons for years now so she probably recognizes the situations where table space denial is a worse of a threat than the opponent's firepower and I guess she deemed this to be one of those times.
I know there have been a few times playing Daemons where I thought there was no logical reason to go first only to see my opponent fan out and cover so much of the board on the 1st turn that it essentially costs me the game when a few units either end up mishapping or come down so far out of position they never really play a meaningful part in the game.
She posts on Frontline's website (as Daemonette), though probably not very frequently.
If I was the daemon player in this game, I'd have gone 2nd.
- How far can the IG blob squad fan out? And why leave the safety of the ADL? No, they are going to stay put.
- You've got flamers and screamers and a flying monstrous creature. You've got a long, long reach.
- Why let the drop pods get the alpha-strike on your units? It's better to let them come on down and have no target. Or, depending on where they land (i.e. if they land in your deployment zone for linebreaker), you can actually avoid them completely or go deal with them later.
- And all the other advantages of a daemon player going 2nd.
Honestly, I think she was just a little over-cautious initially, probably because this was the final table and her opponent was very good. But IMO, she didn't really have to worry about area denial.
I took first turn for many different reasons. Primarily it was to throw Alan of his game.
Initially when I came up to the table and we exchange lists, Alan mentioned that he knew what I was going to do and how I was going to play.
I took first turn because I knew he would not expect it. Not only did this help him think I was a silly woman and didn't know what I was doing, it help him underestimate me.
Another reason I took first turn is because Alan is an aggressive player. I've played many games, When an aggressive player is attacked by another aggressive player it is difficult to change playstyle to a defensive. I've found that many of my opponents will try to recover but it is already too late or too difficult to change.
I wanted to Alan to react to me, not the other way around.
Getting into logistics, I wanted first turn to destroy the playpen, ADL. More specifically the S. Platforms. I also planned 2 feast on those guards men and hide in my 3 + cover ruins. (in the battle report we did not tell the people what are warlord traits were. I got conqueror of cities.: stealth and move thrugh cover in ruins.)
I understand that I had to take the other round of shooting, but I knew my 4 + invulnerable and 3 + cover saves would get me through the round. ( unfortunately I didn't do enough results to the Griffins to get first blood, but cut the losses don't dwell on the past. he couldnt win if he had nothing left.)
I had no doubt that I could get objectives, I also had no doubt that I would kill his troops. and defend my own.
Sometimes you have to do unconventional stategies. Don't always think inside a box.
But I like the box Congrats on an awesome win at what sounded like a great event. I may have to come out next year with my two little minions to watch.
I took first turn for many different reasons. Primarily it was to throw Alan of his game.
Initially when I came up to the table and we exchange lists, Alan mentioned that he knew what I was going to do and how I was going to play.
I took first turn because I knew he would not expect it. Not only did this help him think I was a silly woman and didn't know what I was doing, it help him underestimate me.
Another reason I took first turn is because Alan is an aggressive player. I've played many games, When an aggressive player is attacked by another aggressive player it is difficult to change playstyle to a defensive. I've found that many of my opponents will try to recover but it is already too late or too difficult to change.
I wanted to Alan to react to me, not the other way around.
Getting into logistics, I wanted first turn to destroy the playpen, ADL. More specifically the S. Platforms. I also planned 2 feast on those guards men and hide in my 3 + cover ruins. (in the battle report we did not tell the people what are warlord traits were. I got conqueror of cities.: stealth and move thrugh cover in ruins.)
I understand that I had to take the other round of shooting, but I knew my 4 + invulnerable and 3 + cover saves would get me through the round. ( unfortunately I didn't do enough results to the Griffins to get first blood, but cut the losses don't dwell on the past. he couldnt win if he had nothing left.)
I had no doubt that I could get objectives, I also had no doubt that I would kill his troops. and defend my own.
Sometimes you have to do unconventional stategies. Don't always think inside a box.
Whew! The store is starting to feel normal again and we're back to business as usual!
So, it was a fun time! We have plenty of room for growth and improvement, but everyone I talked to had fun, and those that did have critiques offered up constructive criticism. Can't ask for much more than that.
As for Lyzz's dice? Hey, sometimes you're just hot! Alan rolled her dice for a round in the finals (very nice of Lyzz to allow that) and he threw nothing but 1's and 2's! haha, so no monkey business going on there. It was just her day to win, she played well against some VERY good players (hell, she beat Blackmoor's Grey Knights with Warp Quake going second, that is crazy!).
So congratz to her! Kicked ass, took names, and walked as the first winner of the Belt of Russ!
And a big shout out to Derek Wiswell who won the Fantasy singles with Ogres! LD2 represented as a club in a big way.
I am still burning though my insanely inflated email inbox right now, so bear with me if you shot me a question.
Thanks so much to everyone who came, helped, had fun, encouraged us, etc. that is why we do this! It was super fun.
I will be posting up all the prizes and winner here as I forgot to say what some of the people won during the awards ceremony, doh! I was just so frazzled at that point that I forgot. Sorry, we will ship everyone their prizes and such. Also, if you didn't get your T-Shirt, just shoot us an email at: orders@frontlinegaming.org and we will get it to you.
Big shout to Caleb Wissenbeck, who won the Crystal Bursh qualifier and got a free plane ticket to Adepticon!
He tied for best appearance with Israel Sanchez (both got perfect scores) so we went to sports as the first tie breaker and they both had perfect sports, we then went to Battle Points as the third tie breaker and Israel got him there, winning best appearance! Both Tau armies, both amazing. Well done, guys!
So much fun! I am still collecting all my thoughts and such and will write a full review on the event. We give ourselves a solid B on the event, not great due to logistical errors, but not bad, either. We will only improve from here.
Oh, and a big shout to yoDisisRay and FleshTearers who helped set up, and to FleshTearer for doing the paint judging for 40K! that was a huge task, thanks so much! Oh and yoDisisRay, sorry you didn't have fun man, that sucks. Hopefully you will have more fun at DuleCon. Oh and BTW, the Colossus isn't a FW unit, it is right out of the IG Dex.
Big thanks to HippestHippo and Whigwam for coming out and helping so much with breakdown. You guys helped a ton! We were happy to buy you guys some drinks for helping!
Reecius wrote: We give ourselves a solid B on the event, not great due to logistical errors, but not bad, either. We will only improve from here.
I wish I could score it that high, but I can’t
The logistical problems where a major issue.
I know you will bounce back and make sure that they will not happen again. I do like your events (even though I do not like forgeworld), so I was disapointed.
BAO Issues
Most of these issues were cause by being very short staffed: Started late
No judges
No checking army lists.
Wait to turn in scores
Finished late (this was especially a bad one. A lot of time people come to these events not to win, but to have fun games and to socialize with people they only see at major GTs. We did not get out until 10:30pm Sat)
Solution: Next time do not count on volunteers who do not have any skin in the game. You need to give a few people a discount on their tickets if they help set up and break breakdown. Also have a staff that you can depend on. You might need to give some guys some store credit and have a professional staff.
Then there is the Venue: Barn (Loud, concrete floors, not near a hotel)
Questionable neighborhood
Hard to reach
No food
Bad hotels in the area
No hotel to rest
Solution: Move to a Hotel. You take it for granted when you are at a hotel how nice it is to go up to your room to relax, but when you are off-site like the Barn is, you are car pooling and you are trapped until your buddies finish their games.
Logistics: No Clock that the hall can see.
Solution: A projector that everyone can see would be good so we can see the time.
No visible judges
Solution: You need to give the staff brightly colored staff T-shirts. Otherwise there is no way to tell who was a judge.
No aisles
Solution: You need to have an aisle that is twice as wide as all of the others so people can move up and see the pairings, and move with armies and display tables. It was difficult moving around especially when everyone was playing their games.
Not enough time
Solution: More time for rounds. This is a 6th edition issue but a lot of people were not finishing their games. You can't tell who the true winner of a game is if it only goes 3 turns.
Yeah, My family was worried about me going near antioch high-school. The concrete floors cause problems with models and dice, often traveling 10-20 feet when falling, I'm lucky i made it out with all my missle pod.
If you guys do choose the Antioch fair grounds again, think of putting up pointed signs that say "BAO this way" so many people got confused on where to go.
I have been fighting to get points down to 1500, but there is huge push back against it. Everyone wants more toys. The problem is, 6th just flat out takes too long.
We ran Comikaze and DuleCon at 1500pts with 2 hour 15 minute rounds, worked great.
If we add even 15 minutes to rounds though, it adds an hour to the day and we would still be getting out atfter 10pm.
Realistically, 1500 is the right size for a tournament, but folks get upset when they can't bring all their stuff.
I am really concerned about Adepticon. 1850 and player placed terrain is going to be CRAZY. I don't see many games finishing.
I have been fighting to get points down to 1500, but there is huge push back against it. Everyone wants more toys. The problem is, 6th just flat out takes too long.
We ran Comikaze and DuleCon at 1500pts with 2 hour 15 minute rounds, worked great.
If we add even 15 minutes to rounds though, it adds an hour to the day and we would still be getting out atfter 10pm.
Realistically, 1500 is the right size for a tournament, but folks get upset when they can't bring all their stuff.
I am really concerned about Adepticon. 1850 and player placed terrain is going to be CRAZY. I don't see many games finishing.
And kids always want candy before bed and want to stay up until 2am.
I think sometimes you just have to tell people they can't get what they want. You're committed to having a 140+ event with a single clear winner, and that means 7 rounds. I assume you can't realistically have people play longer games (and most people don't want that either), so that really just leaves lowering point values.
I say, so be it. People will bitch, but oh well.
Did you have anything on the scoresheets about whether players finished the game to its natural conclusion or not? Because I still can't believe more events aren't regularly tracking that statistic. If people are saying: 'we want to play 1,750!' and you can say: 'yeah, but 15% of games didn't play to conclusion last year' then it really comes down to a simple choice for your attendees: 'less rounds (which means less people allowed in your format), longer days (if that's even feasible for your location) or less points'.
But until that number is actually tracked, then you don't know if its a big issue, or not really a big issue.
The problem is that most tournament organizers only hold about one event a year, and they are all treating it as BAU. They do not realize that 6th edition takes a lot more time than 5th, and they are not adjusting their points or their times to compensate for this.
Oh, and one more thing...
People could not see the table numbers when everyone has their display board covering those plastic numbers that you had. You need to have those metal holders that stand the numbers up so everyone can see them.
I think 1850 and 2:15 per round is perfect. I used to be a 2000 guy, but I admit 6th meant drooping the points a bit. 1500 feels a bit too small to me, but then it could curb some spam.
All games got to at least the 5th turn except two. I did play a round against a fairly new player and almost did not finish through turn 2! The only reason I didnt thumbs down him was because he didnt do it on purpose. My fault for being so low in the rankings.
Grimgob wrote: All games got to at least the 5th turn except two. I did play a round against a fairly new player and almost did not finish through turn 2! The only reason I didnt thumbs down him was because he didnt do it on purpose. My fault for being so low in the rankings.
I had 2 games out of 7 make it to a natural conclusion by die roll, and one that ended with opponent concession on turn 5. Most of the rest ended on turn 4. At least one game's outcome was materially affected.
Grimgob wrote: All games got to at least the 5th turn except two. I did play a round against a fairly new player and almost did not finish through turn 2! The only reason I didnt thumbs down him was because he didnt do it on purpose. My fault for being so low in the rankings.
This is actually a pet peeve of mine. Often when people talk about whether or not there was enough time they say: 'well, at least we finished turn 5'. However, the problem with that train of thinking is that when you know the game is going to end on turn 5 (because you can see the time winding down), then the outcome of the game is often just as affected as if you had only finished 3 or 4 turns of the game.
That's why even when some tournaments have included a box to ask if people are finishing their games within time it doesn't include enough detail to explain to people what this really means. It needs to say something like:
Did your game reach a natural conclusion (Y/N)? With 'natural conclusion' meaning:
• One player conceded defeat.
• The game ended after completing turn 5 or 6 with a failed variable game length roll.
• The game ended with turn 7 completed.
That's the ONLY way you really know whether game outcomes are being adversely affected by round times. And once you have that data you can decide whether the issue is widespread enough to warrant changing something like point levels/round times or whether the issue isn't that big a deal and can be left alone...or hell, it can even tell you that it is such NOT a problem that you can consider raising point levels (or shortening round times) next year!
yakface wrote: That's the ONLY way you really know whether game outcomes are being adversely affected by round times. And once you have that data you can decide whether the issue is widespread enough to warrant changing something like point levels/round times or whether the issue isn't that big a deal and can be left alone...or hell, it can even tell you that it is such NOT a problem that you can consider raising point levels (or shortening round times) next year!
Yakface,
Can we (you, me?) someone rig up a ... thread/ poll for people to 'vote' in their game times at the BAO? That'd give Reece and other TOs a good idea of just how few turns got played.
I'll try a thread/poll on my own, shortly here. For the record, my games went:
Game 1 - Turn 4
Game 2 - Turn 4 (IIRC)
Game 3 - Turn 4
Game 4 - Turn 6 (IIRC)
Game 5 - Turn 1 (opponent conceded)
Game 6 - Turn 5
Game 7 - I bailed early.
Perhaps those slow times are my responsibility. I suppose that it might be me. As per my sig, I'm not a nooB and none of my opponents were either, but it did seem tough to get in a full 5.
And Game 4? Criminy, I don't remember hearing "Dice Down" called.
The things is that we run a LOT of tournaments, so I think our knowledge of how things flow at an event in terms of operating within the framework of 6th is maybe a few steps ahead of the average attendee. I think now that folks have seen how much slower the game plays, they may be open minded to lower points levels where they will actually finish games but have to play with less stuff.
I think just like being exposed to Forgeworld in a competitive setting and seeing it really isn't a big deal at all, people may not be willing to look at lower points levels. I am putting together a poll now to shoot to everyone to get their feedback.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and Blackmoor, we did have judges (just not nearly enough) and I agree about the table numbers. We used 8' tables and it was still tough to see the numbers. We will need to get something to hold them up. Just remember, that is the cost of them multiplied by 100! Haha, not cheap, even if they only cost a few bucks.
Reecius wrote: The things is that we run a LOT of tournaments, so I think our knowledge of how things flow at an event in terms of operating within the framework of 6th is maybe a few steps ahead of the average attendee. I think now that folks have seen how much slower the game plays, they may be open minded to lower points levels where they will actually finish games but have to play with less stuff.
I think just like being exposed to Forgeworld in a competitive setting and seeing it really isn't a big deal at all, people may not be willing to look at lower points levels. I am putting together a poll now to shoot to everyone to get their feedback.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and Blackmoor, we did have judges (just not nearly enough) and I agree about the table numbers. We used 8' tables and it was still tough to see the numbers. We will need to get something to hold them up. Just remember, that is the cost of them multiplied by 100! Haha, not cheap, even if they only cost a few bucks.
I would say that you were understaffed.
Also you might have had judges, but when everyone looks the same there was no way to tell who they were.
As far as Forge World goes, I had several problems. For example in my last game (remember that one?) I was playing against a Tau player. He handed me he army list and did not tell me much about it (he did explain the sensor towers when asked). He had a couple of hammerheads with 2 railguns on them. I was thinking that they were just conversions and so I screened my marines with LOS blocking terrain to his army and left them out in the open to the hammerheads thinking that loosing one or two to a railgun is no big deal. Then when he goes to shoot at my squad he then says that they are TL Plasma guns with 4 shots and I end up losing a squad to them. So much for WYSIWYG. Heck, if he was going to put 2 weapons on them he should have done it with the Ion cannons at least since they are closer to what they do than the railgun.
That is one of the many reasons why I quit that game. If I could not combat squad my paladins I could not kill all of his troops and he would have won since he was able to butcher my marines because he did not follow the modeling rules.
As far as Forge World goes, I had several problems. For example in my last game (remember that one?) I was playing against a Tau player. He handed me he army list and did not tell me much about it (he did explain the sensor towers when asked). He had a couple of hammerheads with 2 railguns on them. I was thinking that they were just conversions and so I screened my marines with LOS blocking terrain to his army and left them out in the open to the hammerheads thinking that loosing one or two to a railgun is no big deal. Then when he goes to shoot at my squad he then says that they are TL Plasma guns with 4 shots and I end up losing a squad to them. So much for WYSIWYG. Heck, if he was going to put 2 weapons on them he should have done it with the Ion cannons at least since they are closer to what they do than the railgun.
That is one of the many reasons why I quit that game. If I could not combat squad my paladins I could not kill all of his troops and he would have won since he was able to butcher my marines because he did not follow the modeling rules.
Did the army list have the Imperial Armor units listed (I'm assuming yes or you would have said so)?
I mean, yes, in a perfect world the guy would explain everything clearly (most people do, I find), but if you have an issue with Forgeworld, how hard is it to ask before each game: 'Do you have any Imperial Armor units in your army and if so where are they?'
And if someone doesn't have the IA rules available, then you simply mark them down on sportsmanship as they do not have a copy of their rules.
Its almost like you're purposely looking for ways to get bent out of shape about IA.
#1 don't use the projector to show listings it just creates a huge traffic jam. Instead I would suggest printing out 3 or 4 copies, give them to the first 3 or 4 players in line, and have them stick them up on opposite ends of the building. That will split 1 giant jam into several smaller ones. Then ask the first person who reports winning a game to tear down the old postings.
#2 save the projector to display remaining time.
On forge world.
Have players include a photocopied page of the unit with every copy of their army list. I only has 2 opponents that wanted to see the rules for tarantulas and sabers, and in hindsight it would have been better to leave them with a copy of their own.
Coming from the guy that has custom modeled counts models out in left field WYSIWYG needs to be a bit stricter when a gun clearly resembles another gun. Floating arcane orbs maned by psykers as sabers cannot be mistaken for something else in 40k. Worst case scenario is someone says "wtf is that?" , I explain, then it's "ok cool". When an opponent forgets what they are they look at it for a second and are forced to use their short term memory and they remember its a saber. When custom built duel rail cannons are modeled as forge world plasma gun worst case scenario is people say "ok cool", then forget it's plasma guns instead of rail guns. When they look at it they are not forced to use their short term memory, and their long term memory deceives them by saying it's a railgun.
@Blackmoor - I agree that was certainly problematic. I just fail to see how that is distinctly a Forgeworld one? Am I missing something? Did you mistake it for a Forgeworld unit? Your opponent had an conversion that was not properly modeled right?
I think the issue Blackmoor is stating (and I could be wrong) is that he is familair with the rules in most codices and their representations on the table. No know the FW rules makes it easier to make mistakes with counts as (I not only need to remember what the unit counts as, but also what it does.)
That said it sounds more like a WYSIWYG problem than a FW problem specifically in this case.
For how FW effects the overall meta, I would need to see a list of the top table armies, inclusion of any FW in those armies. I would also need to compare top tables to other non FW events (yes players are not the same) and see if there is a giant discrepancy in what armies perform well.
I.e. if Cronair is dominating non FW tournaments (example not fact) but not doing so in FW tournaments that is a change in the meta.
I'd be curious as to how many flyers showed up at this event and how many of those flyers were forgeworld. Conversely I'd be interesting in how many Mortis Contemptors, sabre platforms, and hyperios batteries and other interceptor/skyfire units showed up.
The first would be an indication that forgeworld allowance limited the flyers people brought. The second would indicate if ditching flyers was warranted or if just the possibility of including forgeworld limited flyers.
I'd also point out that even in a non-forgeworld environment the top 8 at Indy only averaged 2.4 flyers each in the top bracket which seems pretty reasonable.
As far as Forge World goes, I had several problems. For example in my last game (remember that one?) I was playing against a Tau player. He handed me he army list and did not tell me much about it (he did explain the sensor towers when asked). He had a couple of hammerheads with 2 railguns on them. I was thinking that they were just conversions and so I screened my marines with LOS blocking terrain to his army and left them out in the open to the hammerheads thinking that loosing one or two to a railgun is no big deal. Then when he goes to shoot at my squad he then says that they are TL Plasma guns with 4 shots and I end up losing a squad to them. So much for WYSIWYG. Heck, if he was going to put 2 weapons on them he should have done it with the Ion cannons at least since they are closer to what they do than the railgun.
That is one of the many reasons why I quit that game. If I could not combat squad my paladins I could not kill all of his troops and he would have won since he was able to butcher my marines because he did not follow the modeling rules.
Did the army list have the Imperial Armor units listed (I'm assuming yes or you would have said so)?
I mean, yes, in a perfect world the guy would explain everything clearly (most people do, I find), but if you have an issue with Forgeworld, how hard is it to ask before each game: 'Do you have any Imperial Armor units in your army and if so where are they?'
And if someone doesn't have the IA rules available, then you simply mark them down on sportsmanship as they do not have a copy of their rules.
Its almost like you're purposely looking for ways to get bent out of shape about IA.
First let me say my opinion on FW in tournaments was changed, primarily by the nightmare thread I began a few months ago. However in an event that allows FW and requires the player to have the rules then simply marking them down for lack of rules is not enough. If you do not have the rules then there are only 2 acceptable calls from the judges and organizer imo. 1. They may not use that unit in their games, allow them to replace it with something else of course or 2. They can play with the unit but their games will only ever count as a win for their opponents.
The second issue here is modeling. The FW allowance, as I said, is fine by me now but in our area we require the actual model to be used. This cuts down on conversion confusion. Conversions, especially cool ones like Mike Fox's Orks, are welcome and encouraged for normal 40k models but not FW. The problem with Allans' game isn't that he didn't properly check the list or ask clarifying questions about possible FW units, the problem is the unit was no where near WYSIWYG. WYSIWYG is in effect at the BAO and this player did not follow those rules, had the model been the actual FW models then the fault would be entirely Allans had he still not asked clarifying questions. Are we as players really expected to make sure the the sails on an Ork Battlewagon aren't making it a FW Ork Fightabomba? If FW is going to be used the actual models should be required.
It is both a Forge World problem and a WYSIWYG problem.
I did not know that there was even an option such as a TL plasma gun on hammerheads. I know about Ion Cannons, and I know about Railguns, but not these.
And Yak, I wll check his army list when I get home tonight, but I think it just says Hammerhead on his sheet. It was an army builder print out with all of the details and in left hand column it just says Hammerhead, and buried in all of the army builder fine print it says what it is armed with.
And yes, it is a WYSIWYG problem. Here is the issue with that...I have no idea what a hammerhead with that upgrade looks like. I did not know it was a WYSIWYG problem until I got home. There is a possiblity that he was using the correct model since I do not know what it looks like, or it is possible that FW wrote the rules for it, but did not make a model for it so everyone with this upgrade has to make a conversion of some fashion to play it. On the table top, in the moment, during our game there is no way for me to know that there even is a WYSIWYG issue.
Blackmoor wrote: It is both a Forge World problem and a WYSIWYG problem.
I did not know that there was even an option such as a TL plasma gun on hammerheads. I know about Ion Cannons, and I know about Railguns, but not these.
And Yak, I wll check his army list when I get home tonight, but I think it just says Hammerhead on his sheet. It was an army builder print out with all of the details and in left hand column it just says Hammerhead, and buried in all of the army builder fine print it says what it is armed with.
And yes, it is a WYSIWYG problem. Here is the issue with that...I have no idea what a hammerhead with that upgrade looks like. I did not know it was a WYSIWYG problem until I got home. There is a possiblity that he was using the correct model since I do not know what it looks like, or it is possible that FW wrote the rules for it, but did not make a model for it so everyone with this upgrade has to make a conversion of some fashion to play it. On the table top, in the moment, during our game there is no way for me to know that there even is a WYSIWYG issue.
This type thing can ruin a weekend for a player. Sorry that happened to you Alan.
Marking down their sportamanship score doesn't do anything to help Alan's situation. The logistics of bringing the additional FW rules with you and educating your opponent on FW rules within your play time should be the cause against allowing FW at tournaments.
Blackmoor I'd go as far to say the Tau player cheated. These are the kinds of things that give Forge World a very bad reputation. There must be stricter guidelines and active enforcement.
Exposure to FW will solve these issues. Saying you do not instantly recognize everything and therefore should not use any of it is a solution that perpetuates the problem.
The reason we allowed conversions is that for one, people got upset that they would have to pay FW prices for FW stuff, and 2, if it is going to be treated like normal 40K models, they should be held to the same standard. We allow conversions in normal 40K, so we applied the same rules to FW.
I will be very curious to see how other big GT's that don't allow FW go, Adepticon particularly. If the finals is dominated by Necron Flyers and Hell Turkeys which I have a feeling they will, it might open more folk's minds to it. We really felt that FW helped to mitigate the advantage of Flyers, but I understand that other folks may not share that belief.
And one of the biggest reasons we allow FW, is because it is fun! A TON of people there just brought the cool FW models they have in their army, a lot of which weren't even that good. It added a lot of variety and fun to the game.
I am putting together a poll though too, and that will really help to shed light on the subject and not just be our few opinions.
@Blackmoor
Each player was required to have a handout showing what any conversions were. If your opponent didn't have that, that is a legitimate reason for a thumbs down on sports. I am pretty damn sure Israel did have that, as he hangs out at our store and he knew what to expect. It was posted in the tournament guidelines WAY in advance, so everyone had plenty of time to do so. Most folks actually sent me their list with the conversions and pictures for approval, so I know a lot of people did it. Obviously though, we can't check every single person's list the day of the event, it would be logistically impossible.
#1. I have his army list still at home and I will post it here tonight. That is all that I received from him.
#2. A thumbs down on sportsmanship is worthless. An example:
Here is how my first game at the BAO went:
My opponent showed up over 15 minutes late.
I was handed an army list that had the unit names changed out to fluffy names and I had to go over their whole army to find out what everything is.
They were playing CSM/Demon list and they were using all tomb kings units and we had to go over every model to find out what it was.
It was the first time they have played this army. They did not know any of the rules for their units and had to look up all of the rules for their units. Yes I knew all of their rules but that did not change anything (the one thing they did do was put there rules on flash cards, but it was still slow).
So at the start of turn 5 I tell my opponent that it’s their turn and someone says that the round is over, I had my whole army (-5 interceptors) and they only had 7 cultists in one squad and 10 in another (ironically those units were 18” away from anything so they had no shooting or assaults possible). I explain to them that we started 15 minutes and all I have to do is move one unit for the win and they should let me do it, but they refused and they said that the round is over.
So I did the only thing that I could and gave them a thumbs down on sportsmanship, but what did that do? I still did not win, and the thumbs down did nothing to penalize them (and FYI they finished in the bottom 10).
Automatically Appended Next Post: And as far as Forge World's effect of the meta?
You can compare it to the Indy Open that happened last weekend.
At the Indy open you had Necrons and Chaos doing very well.
At the BAO you have IG doing very well.
I will make the leap and say that this was because of Saber Platforms.
So is it better to have IG on top rather than Necrons?
That sounds like a pretty crummy game, which sucks.
We accept full responsibility for any mistakes we make, and will fix them. However, things like what you described are unfortunately not within our ability to control. New players come to tournaments (we all start somewhere) and I encourage that! We want fresh blood coming in.
People are going to make counts as armies. And I encourage that, too! The artistic side of 40K is just as cool as the competitive side. I love competitive play the most (as do a lot of folks) but a very close second is the art, fluff and creativity that comes with it. I do not want to punish anyone for being creative and making an awesome army for everyone else to enjoy (and i know the army you are talking about, it was gorgeous!).
An unfortunate side effect of that is situations like you described. Someone who was not prepared, maybe new to the game, and in a situation where things are going to slow down.
The only solution to that is so suck the creativity out of the game and reduce it down to straight WYSIWG, no conversions, no counts as, etc. That to me is no solution at all as it degrades one of the coolest parts of the hobby.
We have to strike a balance as TO's. I am sorry to hear that you had some issues, that stinks. But I promise you we listen and do what is best for the event, not just what I, or the team, wants. if so, we'd already be at 1500pts! haha
Thanks for the feedback though, it is appreciated.
@thread
When I said earlier that we run a lot of events and maybe had more experience in understanding the game in a tournament setting, I hope I didn't come across as arrogant or that my opinion trumped everyone else's. I certainly didn't mean it that way. My point was that a lot of the stuff we've pushed for and met resistance on, has since been accepted once other folks have tried it in a tournament setting.
I was just trying to convey the fact that we simply have a lot of experience in tournament 40K and that once other folks have had a chance to play more, they may come to realize on their own the same conclusions we've come to. And, maybe not, which is fine too.
We will shape all of our events to reflect what the community wants as ultimately we can't run an event if people don't come. We try to keep our egos out of it as much as possible and the feedback we get is really useful for us to shape the event that people want to have.
Dozer Blades wrote: Blackmoor I'd go as far to say the Tau player cheated. These are the kinds of things that give Forge World a very bad reputation. There must be stricter guidelines and active enforcement.
I think the tau player in question scored a 40 on paint, which pretty much means anything he does will pass the rule of cool. It also means friends and local opponents are less likely to give him any negative feedback. I don't know the guy so I can't vouch for him, but I don't believe he would go through all that trouble of painting an army to a 40 just to confuse opponents with plasma guns modeled as rail cannons. All he needed to do was add something to the gun that makes it look like plasma, a magnetized plastic clamp would probably work, but his friends probably didn't warn him that the model is confusing. It's probably the last thing a passer by would notice about his army. The only time people tend to notice is after they forget they were told it's a railgun and their long term memory tells their conscious decision making "it's a railgun". He may have been set up for failure, and now a guy who can paint an army to 40 has become the unfortunate poster child of how a gun that looks like another gun is a bad idea for a conversion.
4 players with some IG (1 straight IG, others allies)
3 players with Chaos (1 allied in, 2 straight chaos)
2 Daemon1 (who won!, 1 allied)
2 Wolves (1 allied)
1 Tyranid (and 1 at 11th place)
1 Dark Eldar/Eldar combo
Of that, i believe only the IG players even used FW. I could be wrong, but I believe that is the case. 4 of the top 10 with FW is not overwhelming to me at least.
I would hardly call that domination by IG, but they did do the best. I would agree that Sabers played a big part in that.
However, with that distribution of armies, I really do not see that as a problem. That is pretty even.
What was the distribution at the Indy Open? How many players? tournament structure? What were their missions, terrain, etc. etc. There are so many variables that a direct comparison is hard to do, but at least we can look at the distribution of the top 10 to get a rough idea.
You know I love you Reece but I think you should lock down times between rounds, pairings, proper starting times, and flow of the event before saying 40k can't be finished at 1750 in 2 hours and 15 minutes.
***Disclaimer: The following is completely personal experience and may not reflect the whole or even a significant number of events I've attended*****
I can't speak for Nova since I don't know the numbers Mike has from his score sheets but I found that 2.5 hours was plenty to finish with an all foot army putting out 100+ shots with 1/2 of them prescienced in all of my games at Nova. I think only one even went to time and the roll off ended the game anyway. Games were 1,850. And this was when 6th was only 2-3 months old.
I feel the same way about the Indy Open this weekend. I had one game go to time and no others that didn't end naturally. And the dudes that rode with me had the same results outside of a single player three of them played. Games were 1,750 and 2 hours 15 minutes.
Games at a smaller event that was 5 games were all finished under time with nothing going to the mark for myself and I didn't see anyone going over time. Rounds were 2.5 hours at 1850.
I've found that 6th actually plays faster than 5th and most of the people I've talked to at events feel the same way at local events (local being Minnesota, Wiscounsin, Indiana, Iowa, and Nebraska).
Maybe adding Forgeworld has slowed the game down by adding another level of complexity to the game starting process of showing people what you have and what it does?
Just throwing it out there. I keep meaning to make it out to one of your events but the wife already gets cranky about 5-6 GT's I attend a year even if only 3 of them are out of state. I will say though that I won't attend an event not in a hotel if I'm flying. Way to much of a pain not to mention the additional cost of renting a vehicle to get to the location for the weekend.
BTW, here's what the Tau gun is supposed to look like: I remember seeing the dual-railgun hammerheads and wondering if there was a twin-linked railgun option that I didn't know about.
And one of those chaos could have been Daemons. Not sure if I remember if they were up there or not but the list isn't clear as it Chaos is also used for my buddies Daemons at the number 11 spot.
I'd also point out an average of 2.4 flyers or so. (17 flyers for 8 armies) in the top 8. Any idea on the number of flyers in the top 8-10 or at the event overall? Just curious.
No worries dude, any and all input is welcome. And don't worry about hurting my feelings, I have thick skin. I write for BoLS after all! haha
Like I said, I am not saying 1500 is the ONLY way, I just find that it works great in a tournament.
One of the things I think a lot of people forget is that we have to plan for the average attendee, not the top 10% who often are those posting on the boards and very vocal. The average attendee doesn't know the rules as well, isn't as fast and doesn't practice as much. They are just a bit slower.
Also, we do have rounds and times between rounds locked down and in the schedule. The problem was that we started late day 1, and with the physical problems of crowding, trouble with acoustics and getting everyone seeing pairings quickly, it made the normally adequate 15 minutes between rounds, not adequate. We had a layering of small issues that turned into larger issues.
I am not saying it can't work at 1750 or even 1850, just that experience has shown me that 1500 works great and results in the highest number of games finishing on time.
Day 2 we started on time and allowed people to start the round early as pairings were up a half hour before the round started, and a ton of games STILL went long, haha. It's like a goldfish growing as big as its tank allows.
As people get better with 6th, and in a setting that would facilitate faster play and better logistics, I think 1750 would work, but logically I don't think anyone would disagree that in the time frame, smaller points values means more finished games and a more leisurely pace.
And no worries about not making it out, man. I understand all too well that we can't afford to go to every event. I never take it personally when someone can't make it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Breng77 and Hulksmash
Thanks for the data, guys!
Now, before we jump to any conclusions about what FW did or did not do, we have to remember that this is 1 sample group, and that there are a million other variables in play. This is just an indicator of what may or may not have occurred, not a definitive answer in any way.
What about a big white board for the pairings? Give players numbers when they arrive. Put table numbers in the board with the player numbers. Easier to read then a laptop.
Something worth noting is that anecdotally, more casual players and more average gamers tend to play faster, and care less about most things. I.E.., most of your attendees don't even post on forums and such, and most of them know how to play, and most of them play at a fairly clipper pace ... very often by the very nature of their average-ness: they're less finnicky about LOS and rules calls, they dice off or guess on most things, they play pretty quick and loose w/out a lot of time figuring out the nuances of perfect model placement, and they rarely ever call over a judge.
The bigger issues are actually IN the 10% ... which are coincidentally the people who care enough to post on forums often, be loud on the internets, etc. This is why often you can see individuals be very loud in critique or praise of an event, but then see the event surveys not really match the loud individuals.
The reason I say the 10% is the source of most of the issue when there is an issue ... in this case, more competitive players often play more highly tuned lists (which are in 6th edition more model-heavy in most cases), and also tend to be more precise about playing every part of the game, being specific with model placement and LOS, and demanding the same of their opponents; plus, most won't resolve rules issues with a dice off or a shrug ... they'll call over a judge about it.
The other part of the 10% are the brand new players (ALSO not common at tournaments), who are slow by virtue of being completely new to the game.
I think the thing to focus on is .. the game DOES take longer, b/c armies are generally bigger per point, and there are more whacky rules (this is true regardless of points level - 3 years ago, Marines didn't cost 13-14 points, and Daemons didn't cost 9-10 points ... there's a clear trend, ya'll).
Figuring out a way to accommodate the game taking on average a little longer is a worthwhile adventure, but there's obviously not one solution. 1750/1850 and 2.5 hour rounds with proper leeway to get going on deployment / warlord / etc? 1500 and 2 hour rounds? Longer round times or more time in BETWEEN rounds so you have less traffic jamming due to singular late game instances? There's all kinds of solutions, and folks like Reece are proactive and positive enough that they'll figure out the solution that a) is a real solution, and b) is something that fits with their own nuanced views of how the game is supposed to play ... which is the nature of how TO'ing works.
One thing not to do is try and hamfistedly apply one broad-sweeping notion to a very nuanced and complex problem (which this is, it's not uniform across army types or points sizes or players, at all). "1500 points" is as NOT the solution as "3 hour rounds." Let each TO figure it out themselves in a sense ... but as attendees DO stick to your guns, and be heard so that TO's like Reece know exactly what bugs you and why (most of which is being done in this thread rather precisely).
One thing not to do is try and hamfistedly apply one broad-sweeping notion to a very nuanced and complex problem (which this is, it's not uniform across army types or points sizes or players, at all). "1500 points" is as NOT the solution as "3 hour rounds." Let each TO figure it out themselves in a sense ...
Random $.02 (if you'd even pay that much)
I think it is important just to make TOs aware that 6th edition takes longer to play out. There are so many little rules that take longer it is easy to over look that during the course of the game they really do add up. I also think that the player base is not aware that games are taking longer, and it is good to get the word out to them so they can make informed choices and do proper preparations.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Janthkin wrote: BTW, here's what the Tau gun is supposed to look like:
Spoiler:
I remember seeing the dual-railgun hammerheads and wondering if there was a twin-linked railgun option that I didn't know about.
I looked that up when I got home. If I saw something across the table that looked like that I would have said something.
100% agreed. I'm not in the camp saying 6th is faster. .. hell, nowhere is this more apparent than in pickup games. I used to get 4th and 5th edition beer-and-pretzel games done in 3 hours at most, playing really lazy/casually ... 6th is taking a lot longer on occasion. That does NOT mean you can only solve it by playing small-points games in tighter windows. My broader point is just that there are a lot of reasons WHY it's slower (many of which are: more competitive and brand new players both generally take longer, not shorter, to play), and each TO - while needing to solve it - may find different effective ways to solve it. No solution will probably convince or make happy everyone ... but that's no different than ever about anything :p
It is interesting to note that Lyzz’s dice change the whole forge world narrative.
If she drops down and rolls average and gets blown off the table by Alan’s saber platforms, it is a story about how powerful forge world is that that some armies are crippled by its inclusion.
Instead it is a story about how they are not overpowered and an army that did not take any forge world took them all on and won.
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... There were only 4 Eldar players there! 
. Not all of us have blogs about the finer points of beer brewing 
