Since the preview copies of final Codex: Eldar are shipping now to GW stores around Europe, I managed to grab a hold of one too. I spent a couple hours with the book reading through every last bit of it and of course took some notes.

I like the cover of the book, and the fluff & hobby section of the book is filled with great art. Almost all of the art is black and white which gives the codex a certain feel, and I can't help but think that a few page-size color pictures would've made it look better. A lot of the art is re-cycled from ages old books but this isn't a bad thing as most of the art like the classic Avatar triumphant picture looks awesome, and of course there's a lot of new stuff in there too. The army list section has no art whatsoever and seems to have a totally new look to it. All the units are simply listed in as few words as possible. For example, the first two pages have 10 different HQ choices printed on them in a pretty cramped manner.

The book has a lot of fluff about the Eldar race, their history and their mysterious goals. All of the largest craftworlds get a couple of pages dedicated to them, and there's a few tidbits about the Dark Kin too. I think the pages have been filled well. All in all I give the outlook and 'feel' of the army book a B+. There's quite a lot of stuff to read but I would've liked to see more new art and a little more color, but to each his own I guess. Sometimes I felt I couldn't find proper descriptions of weapons and exarch powers, and would've liked a wargear section in the book but alas there is none. You have to jump back and forth from the fluff description of the unit to the army list entry.

To the units then, and how I think they work.

The biggest change in the HQ section is that none of the special characters count as special characters. They are simply HQ choices with wargear that you can't alter in any way, and none of them seemed unbalanced in any way. As a matter of fact, I don't think I would ever field any of them since the custom built ones are more points effective. However, if you want to use Eldrad Ulthran, Prince Yriel, or any of the Phoenix Lords, you don't need your opponent's consent. The Phoenix Lords are basically Autarchs with a slightly improved statline (higher WS, one more attack, etc) but cost a massive amount of points. For example Asurmen the hand of Asuryan costs a whopping 230 points. Phoenix Lords have special rules that apply to all of them, for example that they cannot be instakilled, but since it's not always easy to get these types of models into combat I fear we won't see a lot of them.

Farseer is an entry we will see a lot of however. It costs 55 points and comes already equipped with weapons and some gear. The weapons work exactly as before, and the upgrade from blade to spear costs 3 points. Runes of Warding make the enemy roll 3D6 for all psychic tests and any roll of 12 or more is a perils of the warp. Runes of Witnessing work as before, and so does Ghosthelm and Spirit Stones. The Farseer must choose one psychic power but may choose more, but can normally only use one psychic power per turn. All of the Farseer powers except Mind War are used at the beginning of the Eldar turn. Doom costs 25 points and has 24" range and requires no line of sight, and allows all Eldar units to re-roll wounding rolls against the affected enemy unit. Fortune costs 30 points and allows an Eldar unit to re-roll all saves of any kind. The Farseer can buy a Warlock Bodyguard of 10 models, but they cost 25 points each because they are equipped with Witch Blades and Pistols. Warlock Powers haven't changed.

Avatar is now about 70 points more expensive than before and works exactly as rumoured. He makes all Eldar units within 12" fearless. He is still painfully slow. He has 4 attacks, 3+ armor save and 4+ invulnerable save, comes equipped with the meltagun and is immune to melta.

Autarch is basically an Exarch entry with slightly improved stats. The special rule of having him in the army is that you can add +1 to all your reserves rolls, which might make him worth having. He can be given a jetbike and various Exarch weaponry, but the choice is not totally free and you have to choose from a rather small list.

Going to the Elite units, we'll quickly find that Fire Dragons and Banshees and Scorpions all cost 16 points per model. The Striking Scorpion Exarch now has a S6 power fist available to him, and powers available to him are infiltrate and move through cover. Mandiblasters gives the models +1 attack, and the chainblade +1 strength so the unit does have a lot of S4 attacks. The unit still can't fleet. Fire Dragons got their Fusion Gun strength upgraded to S8 which naturally makes them a lot better than before. The Exarch can get a heavy flamer.

Then we get to the Harlequins. I must say this is a wonderful unit, and I can't help but feel that this is one of those occasions when GW really wants to sell a model and writes unbelievably good rules to it. You'll see a lot less Fire Dragons in Eldar armies than you thought because Harlequins are not 0-1 like some punk tried to claim and you can take 3 units of 10 if you wish. So, here it is: The models cost 18 points each and have a pistol and a close combat weapon. Any number of models can buy a Harlequin's Kiss which makes their attacks rending. Two models in the unit can buy Fusion Pistols which are range 6" Fusion Guns with double penetration at 3". The Death Jester carries a Shuriken Cannon with the pinning special rule, but I don't know how often you would want to fire it instead of running in the shooting phase. Harlequins can fleet of foot, and have WS5 S3 T3 I6 A2 and a 5+ invulnerable save. Harlequins ignore difficult terrain, and have the Furious Charge and Hit and Run special rules and I really don't know how their points cost justifies these veteran skills, but I guess GW really wants to see a lot of these guys. So you're looking at 4 S4 I7 rending attacks per model on the charge. What's best, the unit can upgrade one model to Shadowseer status for 20 points, who gives the unit Hallucinogen grenades which make the unit always fight in initiative order regardless of cover, and the Veil of Tears special rule. The Veil of Tears is as incredible as rumoured, and you have to roll 2D6x2 (not 3!) to be able to shoot at the unit. If you fail the check to spot the Harlequins, you cannot shoot at anything that turn. There are no special rules that would ban independent characters from joining this unit or Harlequins from embarking on a Falcon.

Somehow I see the Seer Councils slowly fading away, only to be replaced by masses of Harlequin units lead by fleeting Farseers who cast Fortune on their units. Re-rollable 5+ invulnerable saves reduce casualties to minimum especially as most of the time you cannot be fired upon. The average range of spotting Harlequins is only 14 inches which is way inside their assault range. This unit is awesome to say the least and I know I'm going to try 2x10 Harlequins with Farseers, and one unit of Snakes on a Plane.

Going to Troops choices we see Dire Avengers, Guardians and Guardian Jetbikes. Dire Avengers cost 12 points per model and their catapults have a 18" range. The Exarch can get the Dire Sword or one Dire Catapult in both hands. I think with double Catapults and Bladestorm Exarch power he shoots 6 times at S4. The Dire Sword forces a wounded target to pass a leadership test or die instantly. The minimum unit is 5 models so you can take 6 and throw them in a Falcon if you wish.

Guardians come in units of 10 or more, and the same applies to the Storm Guardians, so no more 6 man throwaway flamer units in a Falcon. Guardian Jetbikes come in squads of 3 or more, and cost 22 points per model. Every third model can buy a Shuriken Cannon (S6 AP5 3 shots). Small 3man units might be a good way to use the compulsory Troops choices, and I guess you could take more if you like bikes. The Eldar Jetbike special rule of always being able to use the assault move is a nice bonus I guess. Wraithguard are totally horrible just like before, as they cost 35 points per model, can't fleet and and as we know have range 12" guns that are worse than Fusion Guns. The Rangers cost 19 points per model, and get AP1 on 5+.

The Wave Serpent cannot buy a holo-field upgrade unlike rumoured, but can buy all the other vehicle upgrades. It still has the energy field as before.

As Fast Attack choices we can buy Singing Spears for 35 points per model. They have T4 and 3+ armor save, S6 power weapon attacks on the charge (but of course each model only has one attack) and the weapon can also be used in shooting as a S6 AP4 Assault 1 Lance weapon. I read some rumours about a deep strike related Exarch power for these guys but I don't know where that came from. Singing Spears can hit and run and are skilled riders. I think they are rather expensive for what they do to be honest. Warp Spiders move as jump troopers and can teleport 2D6 in the assault phase but any roll of double results in a dead Spider. Their Exarch can be upgraded with Surprise Assault which allows the unit to always deep strike regardless of mission. The Vyper got more expensive believe it or not. It is still open-topped, and costs 45 points without weapons but you must buy one. The Bright Lance upgrade is 30 points and the Starcannon 25 points. This means that a Starcannon Vyper costs 5 points more than before and shoots less, which is ridiculous to say the least. Swooping Hawks cost 21 points per model and little has changed with them. If they buy the Exarch power they can Skyleap out of combat and go back into reserve only to deep strike at a later time. They can get Haywire grenades which are good, and the Hawks never need more than 4+ to hit a vehicle in close combat. The Exarch can get an Assault 6 S3 AP5 Pinning gun.

Heavy Choices look really interesting and just like with the Elites choices you'd want more than you can get. The Falcon is the obvious choice for most as the new Vectored Engines work exactly as rumoured: The tank costs 115 points flat, can get Holo-Field for 35 points, Vectored Engines for 20 points, Spirit Stones for 10 points, and Star Engines for 15 points. Shuriken cannon costs 10 points as an upgrade from the catapults, and 5 points as a normal weapon mount. Scatter laser costs 15 points, Eldar Missile Launcher 20 points, Starcannon 25 points and Bright Lance 30 points. I think the most popular pattern will be Holo-Field, Vectored Engines, Spirit Stones and 2 Shuriken Cannons as defensive weapons. This will make the Falcon cost 195 points and it can shoot twice with the S9 AP2 Pulse Laser and 6 times with S6 AP5 shurikens.

The Fire Prism also costs 115 points flat and can also upgrade the catapults to a Shuriken Cannon and has the same vehicle upgrades available to it. It has the Prism Cannon that fires S9 AP2 small blast or S5 AP4 big blast. If a second Fire Prism has line of sight to the tank and supports the beam, the beam gets +1 strength and +1 ap (S10 AP1 small blast or S6 AP3 big blast) and becomes twin-linked. The standard Fire Prism would thus cost 190 points. The Fire Prism has BS4 unlike the Falcon which only has BS3. Tough competition, eh?

The Wraithlord costs 90 points flat, still has catapults or flamers in both hands, and must buy one heavy weapon and can buy two. Wraithlord is a monstrous creature. Starcannon costs 30 points, Bright Lance 40 points, Scatter Laser 20 points, Shuriken Cannon 10 points, Eldar Missile Launcher 25 points and the sword that allows you to re-roll hits in close combat 10 points. If you buy two of the same weapon they count as twin-linked. This is dumb, as no such rule exists for any other vehicle in the army. Even War Walker weapons fire separately. Of course the Starcannon is way overpriced here too. To avoid Wraithsight problems you need to have a Warlock within 6" or an upgraded Warlock within 12". If you don't have one, you roll a D6 and on a roll of one you can't do anything at all that turn.

War Walkers come in squadrons of one to three, and only cost 30 points each without weapons. They have the Scouts special rule. Starcannon costs 25 points, EML 20 points, Scatter Laser 15 points, Shuriken Cannon 5 points and Bright lance 30 points. If you give them two Shuriken Cannons they only cost 40 points per model and fire 6 times at S6 to 24". They don't have the field anymore, but they are not open-topped either.

Dark Reapers cost 35 points per model so a unit of five is going to cost some points. They have 3+ armour save now, but considering they have no ablative wounds to lose and still only T3 I'm not sure how useful they can be. I guess GW was afraid of giving them a 2+ armour save which people would cast Fortune on. The Support Weapon platforms are still useless because D-Cannon became a mere Wraithgun with a blast template, and the other weapons didn't change.

All in all the army list looks somewhat promising but also lacking in the same time. Harlequins stand out as the best unit in the entire army and as one of the best units in the entire game no doubt, and Fire Dragons will be used. Falcons and Fire Prisms are good, and Wraithlords and War Walkers have their uses too. Dire Avengers aren't entirely useless now, and neither are Guardian Jetbikes. The units that I thought should've been better are Wraithguard, Banshees, Scorpions, Hawks, Spears, Spiders, Reapers and Vypers. As you can see the list is long and includes almost all of the Aspect Warriors, so we can't say that the army book was a total success. Some of the units still suffer from intolerable weaknesses because of the way Warhammer 40K 4th edition is played, and not enough special rules were introduced to counter them. Harlequins are a perfect example of an assault unit that works in 4th edition, since they have abilities and special rules that allow them to simply dance their way to the enemy instead of resorting to death trap transports.

I like the book regardless of its failures and will be building an Eldar army, and if GW can get me to build a force out of these Space Elves I'm sure the army will be a hit everywhere.

P.S. I wrote this in a hurry so forgive me for any spelling errors. I might have forgot something, but feel free to ask questions if you have any.

Thanks for the review Therion.

I'm kicking myself for selling all my old Harlequin figures. I used to own 30 of them

So with all these changes, how do you envision Warwalker loadouts to be?

I have two both with Eldar missile launchers right now (painted and everything!)...

Can you give us anymore info on the way craftworlds work?

Specifically Iyanden? Do wraithguards have to come in squads of 10 for troops? Can I take 6 wraithlords (as rumored) if I have 3 wraithguard troop squads?

I'm sorry to disappoint you but craftworlds have no special rules whatsoever. Everyone uses the same list.

Hmm, now I'm seriously tempted to do ninja jedi space elf death clowns.

Yeah, that's the one big rumor that I clearly remember: no Craftworld rules.

Ah well. Too bad the release schedule is every 6 month. I could dream, then, of
a Codex Craftworlds

wow thanks for the report.. Its cool harelquins are the new uber huh.. hmm.

Really nice review, seems like ninja-eldar-gunboats are in fashion this fall.

shadowseers cost a bit bore than stated, that was the points cost for the troupe leader
other than that, looks pretty bang on

wow, thanks, just what I wanted to hear.

one thing though. did I get that right, Autarchs can have Exarch gear?

so we could feasibly still do somewhat of a all harlie army... 3 elite choices for them, jetbikes can be painted up to be harly and take the troop choices, the Autarch could even be the old Avatar or whatever he was...

also, since Craftworlds are the way of the Dodo.. you could use an Autarch on a Jetbike to simulate the Wild Rider Cheiftain in a Saim Hann themed army? Any other ways of representing him?

No Exarch gear for Autarchs if all the rumours are true.

Harlequins against wyches is going to be a matchup I look forward to seeing!

exarch / aspect gear, but no exarch powers, which kind of surprised me, but I guess it keeps you from taking EVERYTHING for your superhero.

Posted By Relapse on 10/07/2006 11:27 AM
Harlequins against wyches is going to be a matchup I look forward to seeing!

Harlis vs psycannons.

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 10/07/2006 12:28 PM

Posted By Relapse on 10/07/2006 11:27 AM
Harlequins against wyches is going to be a matchup I look forward to seeing!

Harlis vs psycannons.

Did that in a tournament a couple years ago... I was the Grey Knight player and it was over by Turn 3 

I don't want to get spanked by clowns in close combat !

Killer Ninja Clowns from outer space, Joe. that's a difference

I don't know. Adding Hit & Run to the spears really makes it have some potential.

I believe they have a 3+ save, right? So they dive in, decimate a unit, and even if the unit holds they can run in the enemy phase and do it again.

They cost more than disposable Rough Riders, so they aren't a throwaway unit, but they should be able to be used throughout the game instead of just once.

They also don't have to worry about failing to keep up with the rest of the army and can be there when you need them. Also, one of the better loadouts for the Autarch is the Jetbike, spear and mandiblaster, so he can join them, and I believe he benefits from the exarch's powers? It was rumoured as such anyway.

The only thing I am concerned about with the Harlies is their speed. They are fast for other lists, but when every other model in your army moves 12" a turn gauranteed, and can move 24", they have the danger of being left behind, or being unable to redeploy as fast as the rest of your force.
Still, for what you get, they should still be dangerous.

Therion, are Farseers 0-1? I'm just thinking about your dual Harli squad loadout--2 Farseers, one for fortuning each unit. Furthermore, are you sure that there isn't any conflict with the "Unless specified in the rule itself... the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character" rule? (Rulebook 50)

I also don't see how Wraithlords can be that effective. A 40 pt Bright Lance? A 30 pt Starcannon? SC Wraithlords lost a starcannon shot for the same price, but BL Wraithlords now cost another 10 pts? I wanted to figure out a way for a WL to be a gun platform for either anti-tank or anti-infantry work, but with the required babysitter, that just can't work. It's got to advance. I'm thinking the sword will be worth taking, even more so depending on the number of attacks. It used to be 2(3) because of the 2 dread CCWs. Does it have 3 base now? Either way, at 10 pts, that's a bargain. Assuming it survives, of course. Then again, my Wraithlords have a nasty tendency of getting Assault Cannoned (or Genestealered) to death before they get a chance to swing, so even if you increase your CCW hits by 50% for a scant 10 pts, if you never make it to combat, maybe it's not worth it. I just don't know what I'm going to do with them, especially when they're competing with Falcons.

I'm really unhappy about WG. All the rumors were true. They're tougher and more deadly, so that makes them worth taking? No, GW, no. The range had always been the most important factor in the outlandish pt cost, and they decide instead to "fix" two of the other problems while ignoring the most important and giving us no point break at all. All my stuff is painted in an Iyanden scheme, but with this new book, I don't know what I can do. I used to be able to take 3 Falcons, 2 WL, and 2 min-sized squads of WG while not having to worry about troops choices. I used to be able to take WG as troops. No more (unless the alleged 10-strong squad as troops is true, which is prohibitively expensive anyway). Now WG are competing against improve Fire Dragons and the aforementioned God-like Harlequins (which I proclaimed were going to kick ass if they really had 2 base attacks, netting 4 on the charge, weeks ago, BTW) , and they just can't pass muster. And for good measure, they still can't fit into Falcons. Swell. And now WLs have to compete against Falcons for heavy slots. The way they completely destroyed any chance at a decent (and even then, not even 3rd-tier) Iyanden army makes me wonder: are you sure you didn't see anything in the fluff that says that Iyanden no longer exists, having been completely destroyed, and that Yriel is the only one left?

I think I'm going to be taking 2 units of 3 bikes each with a Shuricannon as my troops choices. That's only 4(?) pts more expensive than the 6 DA loadout in each Falcon, and they JSJ from 24" out every turn. The DA can jump out of a Falcon for an objective on turn 6, when the Falcon goes to get something else, but the Bikes can operate entirely independently (and if you took the first turn, the turbo-boost can give you a nifty invulnerable save).

Finally, Therion, what do you think about the Scatter Laser? 5 more pts than the Shuricannon on a Falcon and 10 pts more on a WL. You get 1 more S6 attack but lose the somewhat important AP5. So, against IG and MEQ:

1.11 SL IG dead compared to 1.24 shuricannon IG dead on a Falcon
1.48 SL IG dead compared to 1.67 shuricannon IG dead on a WL

0.56 SL MEQ dead compared to 0.42 shuricannon MEQ dead on a Falcon
0.74 SL MEQ dead compared to 0.55 shuricannon MEQ dead on a WL

The SL also gets an extra S6 shot against vehicles. Because a Wraithlord lacks mobility, that doesn't really help against Russes, Predators, Exorcists, or Hammerheads, so it's a much straighter evaluation. For a Falcon, I'm not so sure. For 5 more pts, you get another S6 shot, and with that sort of speed, you can get the angles you need for side shots. And of course, it's more effective against MEQs, which are the most prevalent opponents.

I myself think I'd rather spend the extra 5 pts on the Scatter Laser on the Falcon. An extra S6 shot never hurt anyone.

Man, I'm going to have to buy a lot of new models. And I don't know what I'm going to do about my Iyanden color scheme.

EDIT: Damnit, the shuricannon upgrade on the Falcon is 10 pts, while the regular mount is 5 pts.  So the Scatter Laser is an extra 10, not 5, pts.  Hmm.  I still might consider taking it, but the Shuricannon is just so cheap, especially in comparison to the formerly-awesome Starcannon.

Another thought: with the new FAQ ruling (rules change to which the devs freely admitted) that range is now measured from the muzzle of weapons on vehicles, is the Shuricannon mounted on a turret, in order to fire, not going to force the Falcon to be closer to enemy lines than we'd like? I suppose the shuricannon on the underside also forces us to get closer than before the ruling, but I suppose if we accept that we're going to get shaken all time (with the change to spirit stones), we might as well get up close and unload everything, eh?

@BigChris, so does this mean that you are actually going to PLAY 40K again?

Darrian

I sickens me that GW still cannot write a Codex to save themselves, and by that I mean the whole Starcannon debarcle. Reducing its shots yet keeping it the same price if not making it more expensive just doesn't make any freaking sense. Neither does the twin-linked weapons on the Wraithlord for double the cost of a single gun (they got it wrong with Tyranids, then got it right with Tau, and have now screwed up again with Eldar). If I'm going to pay twice the cost of one gun for two guns, then I want to fire two guns, not make one gun into a twin-linked gun.

I'm also very dissapointed that the useless Shadow Weaver, Vibro Cannons and Wraithlords didn't get fixed... oh... wait... silly me! They're not getting new models. Of course they weren't going to get good rules! Just like how Gaunts got toned down and Tyranid Warriors got worse because they weren't getting new models. I must remember that when it comes to writing a Codex that you do not get new rules if you don't get a new model. Guess that explains the Vyper getting more expensive yet becomming less effective, and the Harliquens being super-scary with their wonderful new models.

But don't worry Eldar players. Nine or so years from now all the useless units will become useful again as they get new models, and all the useful models will be made redundant as their model lines are kept active...

I hate GW.

BYE

HBMC

wraithlords are getting a new model. so your arguement is slightly broken. Yeah the support weapon batteries were neglected but with the war walkers wraithlord falcon dark reapers and fire prism. they had a pretty full heavy support selection. The support weapons were probally just kept in  for people who have them and want to field them.

starcannons were to good they need to be nerfed or get a price increase. they nerfed them.

if you want two weapons on a walker go with war walkers.

Not all the choices in an army book need to be the bees knees not everyone plays in tourneys. some of us play for fun. a strange kinda fun not revolving around winning but putting together fun interesting battles with different stuff in it.

I think it sounds like all the units in the eldar book are useable some not as stellar as some but does that really matter.

Thanks for the review.

Two questions as an Ulthwe player:

a. Is the Farseer's toughness reduced to 3?
b. If the Farseer takes Warlocks, is he still an independent character? (Opposite the current Seer Council)

Locally, I'm seeing lots more non MEQ armies. I can actually see using some of these new units: Swooping Hawks, Harlequins, Jet Bikes.

Still can't bring myself to put Warwalkers in place of my Falcons, though.

HBMC, are you actually trying to argue that the starcannon was balanced in the old list?

Well I think paying the price for two guns and only getting one that is twin linked is overly expensive and lame.  But if the WL is a monsterous creature, doesn't that mean it can only fire one gun anyways?  Unless they get some kind of wargear like a Multi-Tracker for the Tau.

First off, thanks a lot for the nice review Therion!

It's nice to see that there's some more potential for non-MEQ lists.  It is unfortunate that several units still aren't making the cut, however.

And HBMC, I assume you meant Wraithguard, not Wraithlord, since the Wraithlord is getting a new model.


As far as the argument of "if they're not getting new models, they aren't getting good rules" goes, I find that interesting.  If that is actually GW's  attitude I wouldn't be surprised.  However, I must say that that is one of the most moronic things I have ever heard.  Honestly, if you make a new codex, and give everything good, balanced rules and stats, people will buy the minis!  Unless the minis are absolutely hideous, people will still buy the old Wraithguard, Vibro Cannon, and Shadow Weavers, etc.

You can sell new minis and old minis at the same time.  You still make money!  I would think that a new Codex with good rules for everything would encourage people to buy both the shiny new minis and the old minis (as long as the rules were good.)

Obviously GW hasn't figured out that good rules all around are better for everyone.


However, I am glad the Harlequins are good, and that overall, the Eldar seem to be capable of some interesting and powerful armies.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/07/2006 4:24 PM
I sickens me that GW still cannot write a Codex to save themselves, and by that I mean the whole Starcannon debarcle. Reducing its shots yet keeping it the same price if not making it more expensive just doesn't make any freaking sense. Neither does the twin-linked weapons on the Wraithlord for double the cost of a single gun (they got it wrong with Tyranids, then got it right with Tau, and have now screwed up again with Eldar). If I'm going to pay twice the cost of one gun for two guns, then I want to fire two guns, not make one gun into a twin-linked gun.

I'm also very dissapointed that the useless Shadow Weaver, Vibro Cannons and Wraithlords didn't get fixed... oh... wait... silly me! They're not getting new models. Of course they weren't going to get good rules! Just like how Gaunts got toned down and Tyranid Warriors got worse because they weren't getting new models. I must remember that when it comes to writing a Codex that you do not get new rules if you don't get a new model. Guess that explains the Vyper getting more expensive yet becomming less effective, and the Harliquens being super-scary with their wonderful new models.

But don't worry Eldar players. Nine or so years from now all the useless units will become useful again as they get new models, and all the useful models will be made redundant as their model lines are kept active...

I hate GW.

BYE

Boy, does someone need a hug...

Posted By Sarigar on 10/07/2006 5:00 PM
Thanks for the review.

Two questions as an Ulthwe player:

a. Is the Farseer's toughness reduced to 3?
b. If the Farseer takes Warlocks, is he still an independent character? (Opposite the current Seer Council)

Locally, I'm seeing lots more non MEQ armies. I can actually see using some of these new units: Swooping Hawks, Harlequins, Jet Bikes.

Still can't bring myself to put Warwalkers in place of my Falcons, though.

I think warwalkers will be quite good in city fight. I havent played many games with my warwalkers since COD came out, but by the looks of things, one cheapo unit will be a nice variety. I can afford 120 points for 18 str 6 shots that could potentially last longer with a move through cover rule.

Some corrections or clarifications to what I said earlier: Shadowseer upgrade costs 30 points not 20, and the Shining Spears don't automatically have Hit and Run but can buy it as an Exarch power.

Chris: I really like the Shuriken Cannon but if you got points to spare you can upgrade a couple of them to Scatter Lasers. I haven't built any complete 1.5K army lists yet so I'm not sure what the final loadout will be, but it seems to me that most Eldar armies will have no Bright Lances and no Starcannons. Tank busting will be taken care of by Dragons, Harlequins and masses of S6 shots to rear or side armour. About your Iyanden - I agree it would've been nice to have a couple of extra rules for each Craftworld but in the same time I got to admit that it would always lead to one Craftworld being better than the rest and quite possibly (knowing GW) much more powerful than the main army list. If everyone plays a certain Craftworld then it's not all so special is it, and should just follow all the normal rules. I also hate the fact that people paint their armies in their own colors and one day follow Alaitoc rules and the next day Ulthwé rules, depending on what the cheese of the day is. Now you can still play the traditional Iyanden fluffy list and lose every game, or pick whatever units you like and play them regardless of your yellow and blue paint scheme.

Sarigar: You're correct - The Farseer has T3 but the (free) Ghosthelm gives you a 3+ save against Perils of the Warp so I wouldn't be overly worried about the little toughness problem. The Warlock bodyguard follows the normal rules for retinues and command squads.

What is it with people saying the starcannon was overpowered...its just the eldar version of the plasma cannon...at BS 3

So is it Singing Spears now?

I thought they used to be Shining Spears.

Sorry, minor issue, I know.  I'm just curious.

That was a typo It's 7am here and I'm tired.

a starcannon is the eldar version of the plasma cannon... except it has more shots, can't kill the weilder and has a lower points value....

Posted By 2.0 on 10/07/2006 8:32 PM

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/07/2006 4:24 PM
I sickens me that GW still cannot write a Codex to save themselves, and by that I mean the whole Starcannon debarcle. Reducing its shots yet keeping it the same price if not making it more expensive just doesn't make any freaking sense. Neither does the twin-linked weapons on the Wraithlord for double the cost of a single gun (they got it wrong with Tyranids, then got it right with Tau, and have now screwed up again with Eldar). If I'm going to pay twice the cost of one gun for two guns, then I want to fire two guns, not make one gun into a twin-linked gun.

I'm also very dissapointed that the useless Shadow Weaver, Vibro Cannons and Wraithlords didn't get fixed... oh... wait... silly me! They're not getting new models. Of course they weren't going to get good rules! Just like how Gaunts got toned down and Tyranid Warriors got worse because they weren't getting new models. I must remember that when it comes to writing a Codex that you do not get new rules if you don't get a new model. Guess that explains the Vyper getting more expensive yet becomming less effective, and the Harliquens being super-scary with their wonderful new models.

But don't worry Eldar players. Nine or so years from now all the useless units will become useful again as they get new models, and all the useful models will be made redundant as their model lines are kept active...

I hate GW.

BYE

Boy, does someone need a hug...

Boy, does that mean you're offering?

*extends arms and exposes nipples*

while the plasma cannon is a real threat to vehicles, can be deployed far more aggressively than the starcannon ever could, and is cheaper (in tac squads anyway) than the starcannon.

Next people are going to want the bright lance (already strictly inferior to the lascannon) to be nerfed.

Posted By Centurian99 on 10/07/2006 6:30 PM
HBMC, are you actually trying to argue that the starcannon was balanced in the old list?

Not in the slightest. My ire stems from the fact that we've tried the Starcannon in so many different configurations that we worked out why the Starcannon is unbalanced, and it was not its Strength Value nor it's AP nor its rate of fire. The problem with the Starcannon was that it made every other Eldar weapon other than the Bright Lance redundant.

The problem with the Starcannon was that it could handle all infantry types better than the ShuriCannon and the S-Laser, and it could tackle vehicles in the same way as a S-Laser, make those two weapons redundant.

In our rules, and this is nearly if not two years ago that we started re-writing 40K, starting with the Eldar, we tried making them Heavy 2, but leaving the rest of their stats the same. They weren't worth the points you paid for them. We tried making them S5. Again, not worth it. We made the ShuriCannon R30" and Assault 4 and made the S-Laser Heavy 4. Still they were redundant. The Starcannon could do everything, and do everything very well.

So, after over a year of playtesting, we gave the Starcannon the 'Glance Only' rule that the Venom Cannon (unfortunately) has. Since then we haven't looked back. The ShuriCannon reigns as the superior secondary weapon, or main weapon en masse. The S-Laser is the 'multi-laser' of the group, great for thinning out light troops with its 4 shots and high strength while at the same time being able to tackle AV10 and 11 vehicles excellently. And the Starcannon remains the premiere anti-heavy infantry weapon, but it can't handle vehicles. We created a role for each gun.

All GW have done is take away a shot and made it more expensive, but I guess that shows the difference between us and them:

We playtest our rules...

BYE

@HMBC, When you refer to this "we" Who are you refering to? Who is this "we" that playtests the rules?

Darrian

Darrian: He's talking about his gaming group and the house rules they write
to make 40k play better for them.

Posted By Darrian13 on 10/07/2006 11:03 PM
@HMBC, When you refer to this "we" Who are you refering to? Who is this "we" that playtests the rules?

My gaming group.

Before 4th Ed was released one of our group decided to re-do the Eldar Codex as he was tired of not being able to use half his units 'cause they sucked. And we hoped against hope that 4th Ed would fix 3rd's problems. We had a working Codex and a number of weekends playing several games with the new Eldar long before the new edition was ready.

Then 4th Ed came out, we played a bunch of games, and after we stopped laughing at the rules and picked ourselves off the floor we decided to expand the Codex Eldar Revisited project into the Warhammer 40,000 Revisited project. Since then we have re-written the rulebook, continued developing the Eldar Codex, and added Marines, Daemonhunters and Tyranids to the list of working Codices. We also have Chaos Marines, Tau and Orks in the first draft stages - and I'm writing Necrons as we speak. Our last big playtest was last weekend, where we tested out Tyranids and Orks for two straight days (along with some Chaos, Marines and Daemonhunter stuff along with our new building rules). It was a huge success, and the changes and over/under powered combinations that we found will all be implimented for the next version.

Most important of all, we're having fun playing 40K again. We don't have to worry about units being too powerful or too weak, and we cirtainly don't have to worry about waiting 9 years for GW to fix its mistakes. And if a question from our group comes up frequently enough, we answer it, we don't wait 2 years and then answer it.

BYE

ahhhh.....hbmcHammer
I get it....well I don't but that's ok

Posted By deitpike on 10/08/2006 1:38 AM
ahhhh.....hbmcHammer

Hardly.

BYE

Overall, I think it sounds really good. I can see uses for most units (except maybe Banshees now in all takers lists).

Warwalkers in COD can have it's uses as well, especially with cheap weapons like the Shuriken Cannon or Scatter Laser as AP won't be nearly as important. I'm glad someone pointed that out.

I don't have to buy any models to continue playing my Ulthwe, but GW has made some nice alternatives to consider.

One thing of note is that it wasn't just the new models that got decent rules:

a. Shining Spears got a buff
b. I actually hear folks thinking about taking Jetbikes as a Troop Choice.
c. The Fireprism is making folks go hmmm.

There are a lot of different units crammed in this codex. Off the top of my head, I think it has more choices than any other codex out there (Chaos as an exception). It's bound to have units that won't be to everyone's liking (eg: Harlequins are cool, but these can be very expensive units which some folks don't like dropping that many points on).

GW dropped the starcannon shot by one; big deal. It's cheaper; I can rely on 4 shots every turn from Scatterlasers for even less points; I get two shots every turn from Pulse Lasers; 18" Catapults on a troop choice. From a tourney standpoint that uses army comp, this just isn't a big deal. The changes to the other weapons actually buff our comp friendly lists considerably.

I wonder the guys are doing with their leftover 60+ Warlocks?

They'll probably try something like Avatar, 30 Harlequins, 3 Wraithlords and a few minimum sized Jetbike squads, and they'll win a ton of games with it

So did I read this wrong, or are vypers not as worthwhile at this point, due to the loss of CTM and the de-buffing of the Starcannon?

Sounds like lists are going to look something like:
Farseer on bike (or on foot w/harlies)
autarch on bike
2+ min jetbike squads (w/warlocks? or too cost prohibitive?)
2x harlies
FDs
max falcons w/fds on board.

Does that sound right? How worthwhile are warp spiders do we think at this point?

And more to the point: what the sam's hill am I going to do with all my footslogging guardian?

are Autarchs allowed to take a retinue of any kind? and what if they're on a jetbike?

Posted By Therion- on 10/07/2006 7:54 AM
I'm sorry to disappoint you but craftworlds have no special rules whatsoever. Everyone uses the same list.

What about this post from Brimstone?

Iyanden
HQ – Farseer w/Spiritseers
Troops – Wraithguard w/spiritseers
Heavy Support – Wraithlords

Saim-Hann
HQ – Autarch w/Jetbike (Wild Rider Chief)
Troops – Eldar Jetbikes
Fast Attack – Vypers or Shining Spears
Heavy Support – Falcons

Alaitoc
HQ – Farseer/Warlocks
Troops – Pathfinders (upgraded Rangers)

Biel-Tan
HQ – Farseer or Avatar
Elites – Striking Scorpions/Fire Dragons/Howling Banshees
Troops – Dire Avengers
Fast Attack – Warp Spiders
Heavy Support – Dark Reapers

Ulthwe
HQ – Farseer w/Seer Council
Troops – Guardians/Storm Guardians

Is that possible still?  How can Wraithguard become troops?

With Wraithlords having Wraithsight, do Farseers count or is it only Warlocks/Spirit Seers?

For myself, Vypers were delegated for taking objectives last turn (I'd take 2 at most). I rarely used CTM's and did not really try shooting that much with them. I can still see the use of some cheapo Vypers.

Therion- Rumor had it Wave Serpents would be able to hold 12 models and Guardian heavy weapons would be able to be transported; any truth in this?

WG can become troops if you take 10 of them and have a spiritseer in the squad
there are no "rules" for craftworlds, but as per brimstone's example, you can still make most of them.
just no more black guardians

Posted By Darrian13 on 10/07/2006 3:50 PM
@BigChris, so does this mean that you are actually going to PLAY 40K again?

Darrian

The results are in: the auspices are good.  Once football season is over I can get to blowing a bunch of cash at the warstore and painting like a madman all of winter break.

Man, that harlequin combo with fortune, falcons, fire dragons and whatever, sounds pretty darned nasty.

Any truth to the rumored reduced point costs for guardian heavy weapons?

From looking at the relative point costs on vehicles, I think we'll see quite a few Eldar Missile Launchers (outside of falcons), especially if they have the same stats. A 65 point Vyper with EML, isn't that bad a buy. It gains range on the Brightlance, loses the Lance rule and is a lot cheaper. Combine that with the option for a Strength 4 AP 4 template. The AP 4 will make it a good meta-game choice vs. other Eldar armies as well.

What's more, I've got a ton of EMLs sitting in my bits box. Swapping them in for Starcannons and brightlances makes for a quick change to the new codex.

I've got to agree with HBMC, rant and all, and the Vyper thing simply boggles my mind. I was expecting them to get massively cheaper to be more in line with the Tornado, especially given that the Land Speeder is an exotic choice for a Marine list while a fragile fast skimmer ought to be a staple for the Eldar.

I'm sure that it's a better codex than what we have now, but what exactly have they been doing for the two or so years in which they've been thinking about this? Farseers are the same (God forbid they get some revamped psychic powers that put them more on a level with the Librarian) except for being cheaper, being more vulnerable to Perils, and throwing another version of the Psychic Hood into the game when we should be trying to get rid of the first one. Warlocks are virtually identical. Banshees and Scorpions haven't changed at all, and Fire Dragons just got a flat buff (and here I thought that they were quite competitive as they were). Guardians, one of the more complained about choices, are staying the same, for some mind boggling reason. Reapers got an incredibly obvious fix, and Spiders and Hawks don't seem much different. Looking at all preexisting Eldar infantry, it appears that only the Dire Avengers had any kind of real thought put into them.

They've done almost nothing with psychic powers, which strikes me as almost insulting given what they did for the Librarian. They've done nothing for the vehicles other than to turn the Prism into a Hammerhead ripoff. They've done almost nothing for any of the nonvehicular units that were anything close to competitive, and, as for the ones that were screaming out for fixes, they've generally tossed them a seemingly ill thought out bone that, except in the case of the Spears, doesn't seem to address the issues people had with them (+S +T for Wraithguard, Skyleap and Haywires for Hawks, massive point cut, a strength boost, and power weapons for Spears). As for the heavy weapons, they made absolutely no effort to diversify them or bring them more into line with the background, and that disgusts me almost as much as the failure to do anything with the psychic powers. They nerfed the Starcannon, fiddled with the costs, and called it a day. Strength 6 on the majority of Eldar heavy weapons just doesn't make sense.

And then we have our new units. Harlequins sound obscene, and the only thing stopping me from packing a list full of three squads is that I'd like some Fire Dragons too. The Autarch is middling, though I find the concept rather uninspired, and I'm sure that his Reserves thing will come in handy with mechanized lists (and can you really imagine playing the new codex any other way?).

My list will likely be a single squad of Harlies with a Farseer, two squads of Fire Dragons, three Falcons to carry those, my compulsory Jetbikes (perhaps Avengers in Serpents, if those prove effective), and an Autarch with some Spears. The vehicles and Jetbikes handle the light stuff while the Dragons, Harlies, and Spears tear through the MEQs. A second Farseer instead of an Autarch, or a repurposed first Farseer, could also ride with the Spears for that sweet rerollable 3+ Inv save.

the problem with taking 30 harlies is that they are a toughness 3 model with a 5+ save for over 600 points once kitted out. one unit of ten guards men can kill 4 in a turn of rapid firing the flashlights. if you are in charge range you will be in rapid fire range. then once you get into combay you better hope you wipe out the squad or you could quickly lose guys.

I sort of agree with Gotchaye. They should've done more about the unusable units, thought the weapons through more carefully, and added something new to the psychic powers. All Eldar armies will still look like copies of eachother, the only difference to the previous armies being that everyone has to buy new models.

I think a big problem with many of the Aspect Warriors is that they aren't specialised enough believe it or not. Many of them fulfil the exact same battlefield roles as another aspect, and some of them are a lot more points efficient than others. We still won't see anything else than Fire Dragons in competitive lists and that means Phil Kelly's Eldar designs are a massive failure overall. I look at the 2nd edition Codex: Eldar and I see all this potential, and then I see squandering

Just a few examples:

1. Why don't Death Spinners use flamer templates like they did before? This would actually add something new to the list. There's plenty of low AP or no AP S6 firepower as it is.

2. Why can't Howling Banshees assault from a moving transport? Was it somehow terribly unbalancing that the Wave Serpent had to turn its rear armour towards the enemy to disembark a bunch of S3 T3 models towards the Marines who had a good two turns time to stun or destroy the transport?

3. Why can't Striking Scorpions fleet? As it is they are painfully slow, transports are basically a non-option for the above reasons, and cost 2 points more than a Chaos Space Marine with pistol and close combat weapon and a bunch of heavy and special weapon options. What exactly are Striking Scorpions paying for?

4. Why can't Dark Reapers have a 2+ armour save? As it stands now they will not be able to compete with Falcons, Prisms, Wraithlords or War Walkers for any heavy slots which means you can drop them from the army list altogether if you want. Everything can be balanced by putting the right points cost to it, and right now the Reapers are too expensive. If the Dark Reaper costs 12 points or so, having an inferior statline to Space Marines, it would mean each Reaper Launcher costs 23 points and you have to buy them for each model. It's a 10-15 point gun at best.

5. What justifies that a S3 T3 model with 5+ armour save and a lasgun costs 21 points? Somehow Phil Kelly thinks this is appropriate for the Swooping Hawks, and I'm somehow sure noone agrees. Compare Swooping Hawks to Assault Marines and despair.

Well, too bad. Atleast we got the Harlequins. Cheers for that.

I agree. The two changes I really wanted to see didn't materialize. Eldar should have the ability to assault out the waveserpent. Transports already are non-scoring, allowing troops to charge out would have been fine.

That should have been combined with nixing the holofield. In typical GW fashion, they got rid of the wrong upgrade that was a problem in the last edition, namely the crystal targetting matrix. IMHO, they've only made the problem worse. They changed the other upgrades to better compliment the strategy, and in a certain sense, making things more expensive only exacerbated the problem. One of the problems I've had with playing against Eldar is that you can focus on slaughtering the rest of the army, but the more points they've got stacked in the unkillable falcons, the better they do. Those are all points I can't get to, and many times those increased points get doubled by sitting on top of any objective they need to.

Tri-falcon needed to be shown the door, instead it became the defacto standard for the next half dozen years. At least it will be easy for beginning players to collect an army.

This codex fails in the same way as the previous one. Most of your army selection choices are made for you instead of offering interesting tactical opportunities.

@BigChris. Let me know when you are ready to get back into playing, we can get in a game.

Darrian

Posted By Therion- on 10/08/2006 6:44 PM
What exactly are Striking Scorpions paying for?

Not being marines?

What justifies that a S3 T3 model with 5+ armour save and a lasgun costs 21 points?

It's not a marine?

All Eldar armies will still look like copies of eachother, the only difference to the previous armies being that everyone has to buy new models.

Then the codex is a success!

And comedy rears its ugly head...

Asside from the GW bashing this thread is enevitable going to go into, I decided to address some of the tactical considerations brought up by Bigchris1313...





Wraithlords in my mind do have potential. My load out will be Scatter Laser, Shuirken Cannon. You could have fun and run a "Eldarzilla" list with three Wraithlord collectively throwing out 21 STR. 6 shots a turn have them run with an Avatar attached to a Seer Council (by the new codex standard). Therefore you have a whole lot of toughness 8 and 6 wounds and are garunteed to have a Spirit Seer nearby that is untargetable because the Wriathlords are in the way. Furthermore Wraithlord should be fun in CoD, immagine one holding a Medicare Building.



I think small units of bike are a little too fragile, even with an invulnerable saves you are really only looking at the equivalent of 3 Space Marines moving really fast. My two troop choices will probably be a unit of 10 DA without Exarch in a Scatter Laser, S. Cannon Wave Serpent and a unit of 6 Bikes with 2 S. Cannons. A little more survivable and a lot of move and shoot Heavy Weapons. I would keep the DA mounted almost all game so they can take objectives.



The Scatter Laser almost always wins out in my mind for one reason, range. With the new ruling regarding vehicles fireing from the weapon, vehicle mounted Scatter Lazers always wins out. Not so much on the Wraithlord, but almost anything else you buy an extra attack for cost ten points so it isn't that big of deal. The AP issue doesn't matter much because I am not to worried if a GEQ has to make a bunch of 5+ saves. Besides, I think it would be a waste shooting Falcon and Wraithlord weapons at GEQ squads anyways, thats what bikes and DA are for.

I'm very (x2) disappointed by this codex. In the first stages (aka first rumours) the codex wasn't looking that bad at all:
The Aspects seemed to be streamlines so everyone had it's niche, the Dire Avengers would be the basic, yet decent, troop type. Jetbikes would be better ect.ect...

But what happened?

The one thing that pisses me off the most is the sudden appearance of the halies. Nothing against their fluff but, as already said, they are simply superior to the other aspect choices... How wants to take scorpions or harlies from a performance standpoint? (I will due to style reasons...)

Agree with a lot of posters here: Nothing really new (Psychic powers, change of aspects (Warp spiders for example!) and just a shifttowards other powerhorses... SAD!

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. I'm reading H.B.M.C.'s Eldar codex now...I will see what i can out of it.

"P.S. I'm reading H.B.M.C.'s Eldar codex now...I will see what i can out of it."

We've found that things in our Eldar Codex tend to be very... expensive. Taking cheaper choices when your only transport is 100 points before weapons makes life difficult for smaller Eldar armies.

BYE

Something else I want to bring up, Falcon versus Fire Prism:

This is one of my favorite things about the new codex, as GW has really made a tough decision in choosing. A lot of people are argueing that the Falcon is a no brainer, well lets see...

Falcon with Pulse Laser, Scatter laser, and S. Cannon Versus MEQ's

Pulse Laser 2 Shots, 1 Hit (50%), .83 Wounds (83%), Ingnors Saves so .83 Dead
Scatter Laser 4 Shots, 2 Hit (50%), 1.66 Wound (83%), 0.55 Failed Saves (33%)
S. Cannon 3 Shots, 1.5 Hit (50%), 1.25 Wound (83%), 0.41 Failed Save (33%)

= for a grand total of 1.79 dead MEQ

Fire prism with S. Cannon Upgrade

Prism Cannon 1 Shot (Wide Spread), .66 Hit (66%), Template covers an average of four so four hit, 2.4 Wounds (66%), 0.79 Failed Save (33%)
or Prism Cannon 1 Shot (condensed Shoot), .66 Hit (66%), Template covers an average of one and two partials so 2 hit, 1.66 Wounds (83%) with no save
S. Cannon 3 Shots, 1.98 Hit (66%), 1.64 Wound (83%), 0.54 Failed Save (33%)

= for a grand total of 1.33 on Wide Shoot, or 2.2 on condensed.

So we know it's (rough) kill potential, let examine their pros and cons (in comparison to one another):

Falcon

Pros:
Transport Compasity
More Reliable Wounding

Cons:
BS3
Lack of high number of low AP shoots (best you can get is four with Puls Laser and Star Cannon)

Fire Prism

Pros:
BS4
Rewards taking multiples

Cons:
Random Wounding (template rules)
No transport Compasity



I dunno, it seems like a tougher choice to me. It would really depend on the rest of the army composition. Do I need the Falcon transport compasity? Do I have points to take two Prisms? Bottom line is that it does give us an equal choice.

Posted By Mahu on 10/09/2006 6:06 AM
Asside from the GW bashing this thread is enevitable going to go into, I decided to address some of the tactical considerations brought up by Bigchris1313...
 

Its because GW can't win...  if they had made a powerhouse codex for the Eldar everyone would have been up in arms against GW for that, they didnt' make a powerhouse codex, they basically streamlined what the Eldar already are because they still had a very competitive 7 year old codex and they still get slammed for it.  I think the codex sounds about right for the Eldar and I'm excited to start em up for the 2nd time.

Jumpin Jebus on a pogo stick, Harlequins are nasty! How much does the harly's kiss cost per model? So theyve got fleet, a 5+ invuln, a bunch of vet skills, for a couple of points can get rending, and for a couple of more points they cant be shot at until theyre in assault range. WTF? Where are my genestealer's vet skills? For 20 pts a model I get a 4+ armor save and none of the other crap. What did my stealers do to deserve this?

And is the 6 wraithlord thing true? If it is it totally trumps the nid godzilla army. 6 monstrous creatures with good melee and good AP weapons vs 6 low point carnifexes w guns that can occasionally penetrate skin. Oh and the little guys behind them are better than genestealers. Yippee, sign me up for that.

I think the Fire Prism still loses in the end. First of all sometimes it's not easy at all to have the large template cover 4 models. If the opponent spaces his models properly and has 2" between them small blast templates hit 1 model and large templates 2 models. In my opinion GW did the right thing in improving Fire Prisms drastically, as atleast some people will now use them, but I know I'll start my Eldar army by building 3 Falcons and a couple squads of Fire Dragons. Eldar tanks get shaken easily and as such they are not perfect gun platforms but they are excellent transports. In addition, although only one in 36 glances will destroy an Eldar holo-field tank, they still suffer from plenty of weapon destroyed results and as the Falcon has more guns it wins in this respect too.

BigChris: What worries me about the Autarch is that he is instantly killed by Shuriken Cannons, Scatter Lasers, Assault Cannons etc after he fails one save, and he isn't exactly cheap firepower if you just plan to 'JSJ' with the Reaper Launcher. I do love the +1 to reserves though.

I know that I will start with the Falcon, but the Prism is very cool too. I know a compbined shoot is death to Drop Podders, or two individually can put a hurting on deep striking terminators. So essentially you are looking at either A) you oponent is walking towards you so they are less effective, or B) they are using a movement that forces them to be crowded, which the Prism starts to shine. Not to mention how fun it would be to take to Fire Prisms against a Gaurd Army using close order drill. I can see myself using 2 Prisnms and a Falcon as a good one-two punch later down the line.



I think the Autarch lives for support roles. He looks like he is better of supporting an Aspect Squad with an Exarch than anything else, imagine getting 3 Reaper Shots in before your Spears charge!

I like the New Codex and look forward to taking the Eldar to Adepticon.

As cool as the combined shot of the prism sounds I won't really use more than one. Falcons still seem to be a no brainer and harlequins on foot w/ seer will replace my scorpions and seer in a serpent.....

 

I'll be playtesting in the next few days..

Lazarus.

I am not looking at the Prism just for it's combined shot. I like the flexibility that the tank has, facing Gaunts, two spread shots own it. Facing a lot of Terminators, two concerntrated burst own them. Facing Drop Pods, Combinded shot all the way. Facing Necrons, well now I have two Str. 9 shots to face those Monoliths with, or I would just leave the liths to my Fire Dragons as the Prism combine shoot them to death, or combine shot with a STR 10!

I could be off here, but it is certainly an option.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Mahu </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

I am not looking at the Prism just for it's combined shot.

Yeah, it's great on it's own but I'm still not sold on using two of them as independant units. A weapon destroted result renders the tank largely useless and it doesn't have the ability to transport units....you have to have something  to do on the rounds that you are shaken right?

well now I have two Str. 9 shots to face those Monoliths with, or I would just leave the liths to my Fire Dragons as the Prism combine shoot them to death, or combine shot with a STR 10!

Just ignore the monolith (joke)...sort of like trying to ignore the fact that you are on fire...lol

Hawks / dragons can handle that job now. By themselves prisms are still just lascannons so I wouldn't count on much there...I'm still skeptical about using up two heavy choices for a single shot.

I'll certianly use a single prism in my list though. Great times ahead!

Lazarus.

are they making a 100% plastic prism? or are we still going to have the same one? Not that i don't like the current one, its probably my favorite looking tank in all of 40k, but it'd be nice to have something that wasn't so top heavy

Drop pods are going to do a number on the ubiquitous 30 clown army from hell. I was already fond of dual-flamer pods. If you cover six marines, a flamer is just as good as a plasma gun, doesn't keep you from charging, and doesn't overheat.

Quick math comparison: say 10 man squad of fortuned Harlequins, vs. 8 man drop pod with two flamers, and vet sergeant (one of the configurations I tend to use).

11 bolter/bolt pistol shots. x 2/3 to hit = 7.33 hits
give each flamer six hits (not hard to do, and I've gotten much more) = 12 hits

19.33 Strength 4 hits vs. Tough 3 = 12.88 wounds
12.88*2/3 (5++)= 8.6 dead clowns if on their own
8.6 x 2/3 = 5.7 dead clowns if fortuned

So just one drop pod is going to do a number on walking ninja clowns. 12.88 wounds means I get a torrent of fire roll as well. Now just imagine two pods hitting one squad as they often do.

Did they get a webway porthole in this version?

If so that would change a lot of things.

2 min jet bike squads, 3 max harli squads and an avatar or farseer.

No webway portal. Old news.

"exarch / aspect gear, but no exarch powers, which kind of surprised me, but I guess it keeps you from taking EVERYTHING for your superhero."

So the Autarch CAN use Exarch weapons?

Mandiblaster+Executioner for 4 s5 power weapon attacks
Mandiblaster+Mirrorblades+ccw for 6 s3 power weapon attacks
Mandiblaster+scorpion claw+pistol 5 s6 powerfist attacks.

Firepike on a jetbike

too bad those nifty Exarch boosting powers are gone now. Burning Fist had cool imagery around it, a big psychic punch that can bust power armor.

Harlies sound really nice but I still think that they fall much too easily to alot of really prevalent unit out there in competitive armies (or units that can be easily modified to become anit-harli).

Marines have drop pod units for rapid firing, assault squads with flamers, tornados, whirlwinds (castellan mines - HELLO!) FoTA

IG don't really fear them too much if played well because conscripts or line squads can take the charge and after *ahem* valiantly offering their lives have the 4 flamer command squads or even line squad with rapid firing lasguns come in and clean up. Indirect ordinance... nuff said. Hellhounds. Suicide Drop Squads with demo charges

Tau- stealth suits, fish of fury, sms?

Eldar- dire avenger serpent of fury, just the pure number of S6 shots available to fast moving eldar units (Warp spiders, falcons, serpents, jetbikes)

Dark Eldar- wyches- have better save once in combat, will probably charge (webway raider) maybe cheaper (sorry don't know much about DE)

Sisters- seraphim with hand flamers, dominions, regular sisters with drive by heavy flamings, Spirit of the Martyr.

Running harlies at a gun line just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. It may be but I'm just not convinced. Alot of armies bring stuff to deal with hordes and it all works against harlies... except you have to be within 14" and your target costs about as much as an assault marine. Counter-assault and they work fine, but running into guns... not so much.

I'd rather take the fire dragons to ride in falcons. Those are points that aren't being given up unless they've taken something big down with them.

the good thing about the harlies is the death jester. 24" range pinning cannon, so the harlies can sit outside of any shooting range (with help of the veil) and pelt until you come to them drop pods can be dealt with like always...

You're going to stand still with a 200pt unit firing a single 24" range S6 AP5 gun hoping for pinning?

sure, i'm crazy like that

it is 3 shots now, i'm just saying that if i'm looking at witch elves or something that i know i'm going to have to really deal with, the Death Jester isn't a bad idea to have around to pin if i can

Posted By Mannahnin on 10/09/2006 6:56 PM
You're going to stand still with a 200pt unit firing a single 24" range S6 AP5 gun hoping for pinning?

Word on the street is that it's now assault 3, but even if you can move, you're still giving up your fleet roll.   Of course, that hardly justifies giving up 3.5" of movement per turn in the name of pinning.  Pinning.  Hah!

I'm trying to reserve judgement until I see the Codex, but I am already concerned with what I've read.

Fire Prism = a better Hammerhead Railgun?

I was already disappointed in the new Tau Codex, but now...now there's a non-Space Marine army with more mobile firepower AND assault capability? Why play Tau!?

Which brings me to my next post: 1 Tau army for sale - cheap.

fire prism hasn't changed at all on its own... it's only changed when you couple it up with another one. 2 Hammerheads can still dish out enough to give 2 prisms a fight.

Posted By Furious on 10/09/2006 11:06 PM
I'm trying to reserve judgement until I see the Codex, but I am already concerned with what I've read.

Fire Prism = a better Hammerhead Railgun?

I was already disappointed in the new Tau Codex, but now...now there's a non-Space Marine army with more mobile firepower AND assault capability? Why play Tau!?

Which brings me to my next post: 1 Tau army for sale - cheap.

that's two prisms though, 260pts minimum (and nobody fields them bare), and if you destroy one of those 12/12/10 skimmers they can't charge up.

Also, aren't the rules for laying blast templates in such a way that Heavy1 shots are better for penetrating vehicles?

Did you know?:
in 2nd ed, the Fire Prism was the 'railgun' of 40k, it had more penetration dice than any other weapon (I think...)

It used to be BS3. But that BS4 makes a world of difference now, doeasn't it?

Eldar get a BS 4 heavy, with a small template/large template weapon that can be improved further for even more MEQ death. The STR9 AP2 Small blast is quite nice (as it should be easy enough to get two MEQs or terminators under the template), but double up and you get AP3 under a large template? WOW. Not to mention that you're only putting one vehicle at risk to make it happen. "If a second Fire Prism has line of sight to the tank and supports the beam" means, in my mind, that both tanks can begin the turn out of LOS. One tank moves to establish LOS to the enemy while the other remains in LOS to the firing Fire Prisim and out of LOS to the enemy. So with two Fire Prisims you get either two BS4 small template shots or one "around the corner" large template shot - both area effect weaponry, both anti-MEQ goodness. And, might I add, possibly the anti-Drop Pod list answer...

So why play Tau now?

I first want to address the idea of a Shuricannon on a Fire Prism which someone had a few posts back: no. The Fire Prism is for staying 60" away and unloading, not for getting within 24" of anything. So don't bother with that upgrade: it's going to be wasted pts.

Secondly, the uber-plasma cannon on the FP isn't for whacking run of the mill terminators as they trudge around the board (as if they ever are!). It's best utilized against DSers. Those Termies are bunched up, and then it's showtime and you get to unload with 1 full and 4 partials. Unfortunately, the assault cannon is the best gun in the game against Eldar skimmers, so it's going to be tough to position your forces such that you can protect your Fire Prisms, if that's even possible. Because if they get a single glancing hit against either of them, it's game over and you won't be shooting until the termies have had a chance to spread out.

I still think the Falcon is going to be a better buy. I just don't have much faith in a single BS4 shot. But that is what Tau players get, as has been pointed out, so maybe the idea is worth a try.

Railguns are also S10 AP1 or S6 AP4, and Hammerheads are Av13 - means they're a lot more likely to get to shoot their gun.

There's a large gap between penetrating landraiders on a 4 and penetrating landraiders on a 6, and a larger gap between shooting and not shooting.

Same same for wounding T4 on 2s and wounding on 3s (S6 pie v. S5 pie).

You don't buy Eldar Av12 tanks with the expectation you will get to shoot them. They're simply too easy to glance and ignore. The strength of the holofield is that it makes you tough enough to get close and unload troops, tank shock things, shoot lots of close range guns, and draw (and absorb) lots of fire.

Fire prisms are OK for VP denial I guess, but I'd rather have a useful transport.

I got to read the codex mid last week here in Australia but the demands of final exams for my medical degree hampered my spreading the word.

Thanks for the review Therion.

The first unit that jumped out was the harlies followed by the new improved fire prisms.

Good to see they helped some of the truely lame units, but its a shame they missed the opportunity to make all units useful.

Hey can we get a confirmation that the Veil is a psychic effect and as such Sisters and Grey Knights would be immune?

Don't mind me, I'm suffering from Codex Envy at the moment. >.<

The new Elder Codex sounds nifty and I'm looking forward to reading through it.

To get the most out of the Falcons (we) the Eldar players would need to ignore Harlequins and just go with 3 units of Snakes on a Plane. I'm wondering if the 11man Seer Council would still be worth it when combined with the new Avatar. Sure there's no ablative wounds in there now, but the unit is still made of the stuff of awesomeness and will draw a lot of fire away from the Falcons and possibly Shining Spears and Jetbikes. If it doesn't draw any firepower then the enemy will die a horrible death in close combat during turn 3.

That was my idea for an "Eldarzilla" list. Decent size Sheer council with attached Avatar and 3 Wraithlord with point effective shooting.

I'm most curious to see what everyone is taking for compulsory troops...

The cheapest seems to be 3 bikes at 66 points. The other ones seem to have pretty poor returns on points investment until you reach the 200 point zone, where you can afford full mounted avengers or largish bike squads.

It looks like 3x snakes on a plane will run around 1000ish points and use 3 slots. That leaves fast attack and HQ to beef up on since either of these appears to give better return on points invested than troops...

So it looks like from here we can go 2x spears + mounted HQs i.e. autarch + farseer or... council + mounted min guardians to save points...

or...

uber 11 man HQ, min sized bikes and 1x spears...

Eldarzilla seems to lack resilience vs snakes on a plane, since each squad of snakes + plane (w/ scatterlaser and shuricannon) will inflict 3 and 1/36 wounds on a lord in 1 turn of shooting.  Snakes on a plane would appear to trump the harlies at first blush, since the snakes can take a dragon's breath. - Protected from charges due to Bird of Fury config as well...

An attached avatar w/ fortune is just plain sick. I used to do that in my old foot slogging Ulthwe list before switching to mechanized....It was sick back then.

The only down side is that you won't be fleeting due to the speed of the avatar.

Lazarus.

I used to do the old Avatar slingshot with Guardians...

Still a valid tactic... possibly the only use for Guardians.

what the hell is snakes on a plane referring to?

Posted By keezus on 10/10/2006 10:33 AM

I used to do the old Avatar slingshot with Guardians...

Still a valid tactic... possibly the only use for Guardians.

my guardians, will be used defensively like they are originally intended.  table quarters and protect flanks/rear of the deployment zone

snakes on a plane is the name of a Samuel Jackson movie about, Snakes on a plane.

so it's safe to say that Autarchs get Exarch weapons? I didn't read anyone challenging the statement in this thread.

ok, i realize snakes on a plane is a movie with Samuel L Jackson, but it is being referred to in an Eldar context.. thats what i was wondering about

Posted By derling on 10/10/2006 10:24 AM

There's a reason Dakka Dakka is not a respected forum outside it's own little microcosm.  Post like this is the primary reason. 

Unbridled cynicism is just what HBMC does.  But you can't honestly think people like HBMC are the problem here.  Once you get past his harsh exterior, you find that he's actually part of a group of very intelligent posters.  His gaming group has been re-writing the 40k rules and various codecii for some time over a year now, constantly playtesting in order to find the perfect balance, a task that GW has been unable to do thus far.  From what I've heard they've been pretty successful.  HBMC is also a resident authority on IG list construction and tactics. 

No, HBMC doesn't really come to mind when I think of problems with Dakka.  Just because he posts with the cynicism of an old man doesn't mean that he doesn't have good things to say.  And I for one can deal with that.

got it thanks

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Mahu </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

I personally see it as a waste as Fire Dragons have no survivability once they get out (especially in such small unit),

Really? A waste? Wow, I find them to be great and that's under the old rules....now they get alot better than before. I wouldn't use 3 units though but only sause I want other stuff to add colour....

and while they are in (according to the new FAQ) they don't make the Falcon Scoring

They don't need to. The falcon is already  a scoring unit by itself.

Lazarus.

Posted By Lazarus on 10/10/2006 12:20 PM
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Mahu </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> and while they are in (according to the new FAQ) they don't make the Falcon Scoring

They don't need to. The falcon is already  a scoring unit by itself.

Lazarus.

I am not sure I understand your post. Mahu is stating that while a falcon is embarked, it does not count as a scoring unit.

You say they dont need to because the falcon is already a scoring unit by itself.

How the hell does that work? Please explain.

Ummm...Falcons are Heavy Support choices. They're Tanks,and they are also transports, but they are not dedicated transports. So they're scoring. They just happen to be able to squeeze 6 skinny elves in the back.

The only non-scoring vehicles that I'm aware of are dedicated transports and immobilized vehicles. The Falcon is neither of these. So it's a scoring unit, regardless of whether anyone is riding inside or not.

I think he was being ironical, dude.

And thank you for bringing us back on topic.

Mahu had it slightly backwards - the Fire Dragons are arguably incapable of holding an objective or of being a scoring unit while in a transport as per the new FAQ. However, for most missions, this is irrelevant when they're in a Falcon because the Falcon itself is a scoring unit. It's much more of a problem for Wave Serpents.

To go back to Furious' post from page 6 that got a bit lost in the recent scuffle, I don't think that the Fire Prism comes close to competing with the Hammerhead; I'm rather disappointed with the thing myself.

For starters, it's categorically weaker as a single model. The Hammerhead has better strength on both modes of fire, and Blast hardly matters against vehicles. The difference between S10 AP1 and S9 AP2 is absolutely tremendous, too. The Prism is far easier to Shake, as it has weaker armor, shorter range, and fewer relevant defensive options (I'm mostly talking about the 6" range reduction thing that the Hammerhead has that comes in very handy against several weapons). Two Prisms are still less effective against vehicles than are two Hammerheads, and shaking just one of them reduces the effectiveness of the pair down to a single Lascannon's worth. They're obviously also less effective against everything with more than a 3+ save. Against 3+ saves, they're roughly 68% better, but that's it. While they'd be theoretically very cool against deep-striking 2+ saves (they're hardly any more effective than single-shot Railguns against 2+ saves in normal formation), they're just not going to get to shoot. Two Assault Cannons combined have around a 60% chance of preventing a Prism from shooting in the next turn, and you can bet that that'll be a priority target for the Marine player.

I've got to agree with a few others - Snakes on a Plane all the way. Scatter/ShuriCan Falcons are individually shootier against everything but 4+ saves, and they're even better against them if they're spaced out to avoid the Prism Cannon. Best of all, when your Falcons are Shaken or Weapon Destroyed, as happens after 88% of all Glancing Hits, they're still useful.

I suppose I would have liked to see the Prism as a true anti-tank specialist, without that anti-infantry option, or with rules reminiscent of the Vibrocannon (but moreso).

I think the best option woudl be something like:

1 x 6 harlies
2 x snakes
3 x planes

Then whatever else. A squad of 6 harlies popping out of a falcon after it's zoomed 24" would be just fine.

But Mahu is totally missing the point behind 3 x 6 fire dragons. They're cheap, and after they're done shooting if you dump all 3 squads in one turn, they won't be wiped out. One or two might be punked but 3 x 6 4+ save guys in cover is harder to dislodge than you think.

Sure they're fragile but they cost like 96 pts. Trade that for a tank or a squad of obliterators any day.

Quick question for those in the know. Does the auxilary fireprism have to be able to shoot to add its strength to the primary prism?

Basically, I'm wondering if the only qualification for adding the prism's strength is "that it can draw LOS". If so, and a prism gets shaken, then it can just go into a support role. You could very easily have two of them them tag-team.

Posted By Longshot on 10/10/2006 4:08 PM
I think the best option woudl be something like:

1 x 6 harlies
2 x snakes
3 x planes

SNAKES ON A PLANE!!!

But in all seriousness, I'm inclined to agree, I don't like putting the harlies in a transport, but I think it's about as good an option as we have currently.

What would you think the troops would be? 2X min bikes? or two min guardian squads with EMLs\Brightlances?

Depends on your list I guess. A bunch of jetbikes would be ok I'm sure, just because they are super fast and pretty resilient for the points.

I really have to see the whole codex in its entirety. Maybe shining spears would be ok, but 35 pt T4 3+ guys don't really appeal to me that much as much as people seem to think they're OK. Just add an element of frailty that the army doesn't need I don't think.

I think warp spiders could be OK simply because they are very fast and resilient, with pretty strong guns despite short range. Good way of getting fairly tough guys for not too many points. And easier to conceal than jetbikes.

I think, personally, I would toy with the idea of loading up on tons of jetbikes. They have a lot of antipersonnel utility, can have a spearlok to get some extra antitank, and are fast and resilient. And also don't start on the board in escalation.

A cheap autarch with a jetbike, laser lance and mandiblasters would be pretty cool I think, combined with a cheap farseer on a jetbike with fortune and a singing spear.

Really tough to say, but I really do like the autarch's +1 to reserves. That can be huge.

I don't know how you see bikes as being resilient. They can shrug off a wound or two when they turbo-boost but if you're shooting at anything during your own turn a single heavy bolter has the potential of wiping the small Bike squad completely out. I see them as a nice and cheap scoring unit if you need extra ones.

I think I'm going to start with Seer Council, Avatar, Harlequins, 2 x 6 Dragons in Falcons (Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon equipped), Wraithlord with Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon (both cheap upgrades) and two 10man Guardian squads with Lances (the gunners now come from the existing squad members). This kind of 1500 point army should look cool and be quite effective. Then I'll go on trying it without the Wraithlord and with a third Falcon or a Prism, possibly also trying the army without the Guardians, using Bikes instead. I got to say here that I do still like the Wraithlord for his ability to combine a nice amount of BS4 firepower with anti-horde capability and close combat prowess. With the S6 guns he is an anti-Land Speeder battery that cannot be silenced with a vehicle shaken result.

When the rumours came out a lot of people (including myself) quickly thought that all the old armies are dead and new Biel-Tan style armies will reign supreme. Everyone would just take the Autarch, Bikes, Shining Spears and Dragons in Falcons. However, after some careful consideration I think the multiple UK GT winner Ulthwé with Council, Avatar, 1-2 Wraithlords + 1-2 Falcons, Guardians + Vypers -style army will still be very very powerful because although the Seer Council now has no ablative wounds and Starcannons have been removed the list has been buffed in other ways, namely the Falcons becoming indestructible and the Dragons being the bane of everything, and the Harlequins being a great all purpose unit in their own right especially if supported by other close combat troopers. The new Avatar will make the entire army fearless untill he is killed (and if he is Fortuned this is a huge task). I think that a fool-proof way to play the new Eldar is to take all of the resilient choices and leave the fragile 'connoisseur' units to fluffbunnies. This means using the Seer Council, Avatar and as many Holo-Fielded tanks as you can get. Black and bone coloured elves will still be popular. Since this is exactly the army the designer of the Codex plays himself, I wouldn't have expected anything else. Pete Haines didn't make his Iron Warriors exactly unplayable either.

well i am going the biel tan route with mine most likely.. from different sources Ive pooled an army list tentatively together and came up with: Avatar, Autarch (planning to give the autarch SH wings or WS jumppack, dire sword, manidiblasters) , 10 Scorpions (infiltrating), 6 Snakes, 3 X 10 Dires, 2 X 6 Spiders, 1 Wraithlord to get me to 1850, add in a pinch of Reapers to make it 2000. I love infantry and hate painting vehicles so itll be perfect for me

I've been following the eldar codex rumors for the last month or so. I started eldar about 9 months ago while my son did SM. I guess that makes me rather new to the game. However, having played several games, watched some local tournaments, read the forums, and worked on strategy with my son, I would like to make some newbie observations about the new codex.

First, it seemed to me that compared to SM, the problem with the Eldar was very week troop choices (Guardians and DA), particularly given the short range of their primary weapon and poor close combat stats. I completely understand the max/min approach alluded to in other posts--either a squad babysitting a weapon platform or a large mass suicide squad of cheap troops storming across the field using as much cover as they could find. Now, the babysitting option seems gone (too expensive to field min 10). While DA seem to be able to fill the storm squad role, it seems to me the squad size is too small to hold up. With an Exach, a 10 person DA squad costs out (at 134+unknown exarch power costs) to about the same as a 10 man SM squad, but doesn't seem able to hold its own in HtH even with the charge. Moreover, since there is no option to regroup once the unit falls below 50%, they will almost surely run off the table before the game is over.

In the new codex, I thought the pathfinder looked like the most compelling troop choice, but it doesn't appear that anyone else agrees with me. I do see that the Gaurdian jetbikes may also be an option, but they were so weak in the current codex that I wonder how many people actually have the models.

Regarding the elite choices, consider me a grumbling old man, but I get the feeling that most of the existing choices were ignored so that the Harlequins could get center stage. It seems to me that many of the choices in the current codex needed small, but significant updates.
For example, why were Scorpions not given fleet of foot? The reduction to S3 made sense, but why Mover through Cover and Infiltrate? I don't get the reasoning. Moreover, I don't get why these option but not fleet of foot?

Wraithguard seem to be a defensive only unit providing a line of defense for more fragile troops. But 35 points each for a defensive unit? (BTW--I do see the offensive ability if mounted in a WS, but too few troops, too few shots, and too many points for a so-so offensive push.) A decrease in points (to 25 each?) rather than a gun upgrade and T6 would have made more sense. The limited range of the gun makes the upgrade nearly useless--one round of shooting and into close combat. My experience has been that Wraithguard are great at just tying up SM's for several turns in HtH since they rarely score enough wounds (after saves) to whittle away a SM unit, but usually last several turns just because they are so hard to beat up. As an elite choice at 35 points each, they should compare (roughly) to a SM terminator and there is just no comparison. Again, try a 7 man Terminator unit (280 pts.) against an 8 unit WG squad (280 pts.)

Firedragons are better, but were already great. (Luckily, I have several of them :-}) They kill things great, but are tough to keep alive.

I haven't played banshees or spiders, but I don't see them as having been given any great boost.

The WS seems good, but again, compared to a Rhino, is it overpriced? How much value is a 24" move worth? I don't think I can answer that, but since the WS can't unload troops after moving 12" (the same as the Rhino), I can't see almost double the price. Now, mount a twin-linked weapon and it seems nicer, but so is a Razorback with lascannons. More to the point, why don't the eldar have a low-cost transport especially given the fragility of their troops? Wouldn't such an advanced race find a way to get fragile troops to the front lines quickly without getting shot-up? The suggestion of being able to assault out of a WS (like that of a land-raider) also seems like a reasonable addition since the skimmer is only moving half it's maximum distance before disembarking troops.

Regarding heavy choices, the changes to the wraithlord, falcon, and fire prism all seem reasonable with just a few exceptions. First, why is spirit stone equated to additional armor? Doesn't spirit stone sound more like a Power of the machine spirit upgrade? I also don't see what was wrong with the current version. Finally, if it is extra armor, why does it cost eldar 10 pts while a SM gets extra armor for 5 pts. And if I can anticipate that the answer is how it works with holofield, then why not make holofield cost more and include the downgrade. BTW, I am very glad they didn't change the holofield (or the force shied on the WS for that matter). And finally, why twin-link weapons on the WL for the same cost as two-weapons? That is one I just don't get.

The Dark Reapers seem to have been left way short of their potential. On the stat line they are weaker than SM, but do benefit from a gun that is better than their SM equivalent (Heavy Bolter). Here, the biggest problem is their inability to add troops to the squad to allow for some extra wounds and the ability to upgrade more than one unit member to an exarch. Again, compared to a SM devastator squad, the devastator squad typically adds a few marines so their heavy weapons stay on the table longer and, if they do fail leadership, they automatically regroup the next turn (well almost automatically). On the other hand, the reapers loose big guns with the first wound and, when they fail leadership, they are likely to head straight for the edge of the table since they cannot regroup if they loose 3 units. Why can't reapers add a few guardians to the squad to act as guards for the reapers while they take aim on the advancing marines across the table?

I've not played warwalkers or heavy weapon platforms that often, and I can't see any reason to start.

While I get that the starcannon is the best eldar weapon, I don't think it is the best 40K weapon given the cost. If assault cannons were available to eldar, how many starcannons would be put on the sidelines to make room for them? (That's a rhetorical question--I don't want to start an argument.) I think the best way to handle the starcannon was to handle them similar to the assault cannon in that they are only available to limited units (such as WL's, vypers, and falcons). Again, this makes a lot of sense to me and meshes well with how other "super weapons" are handled.

Finally, I am looking forward to the new rules for swooping hawks since I like the models, but couldn't get much out of them in terms of gameplay. I haven't played shining spears, but I have used Vypers. What were they thinking?

OK, well this ended up a lot longer than I thought and please forgive me if my questions seem idiotic to veteran players.

Finally, after reading some other posts and looking at my own thoughts, I can't help but wonder about GW's motives. With the investment required to play this game, why turn people off by devaluing the investment they've already made? The Harlies do sound great, but why so much better than eldar squads already in the game?

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/10/2006 5:04 AM
Hey can we get a confirmation that the Veil is a psychic effect and as such Sisters and Grey Knights would be immune?

They wouldnt be immune as even though its a psychic effect, it is not targeted at the Sisters/grey knights (its target is the harlies) and so would not be affected by their nullification abilities.

Posted By hobo1430 on 10/10/2006 9:07 PM

First, it seemed to me that compared to SM, the problem with the Eldar was very week troop choices (Guardians and DA), particularly given the short range of their primary weapon and poor close combat stats. I completely understand the max/min approach alluded to in other posts--either a squad babysitting a weapon platform or a large mass suicide squad of cheap troops storming across the field using as much cover as they could find. Now, the babysitting option seems gone (too expensive to field min 10). While DA seem to be able to fill the storm squad role, it seems to me the squad size is too small to hold up. With an Exach, a 10 person DA squad costs out (at 134+unknown exarch power costs) to about the same as a 10 man SM squad, but doesn't seem able to hold its own in HtH even with the charge. Moreover, since there is no option to regroup once the unit falls below 50%, they will almost surely run off the table before the game is over.

Think of it this way, Hobo.

Eldar are strength 3, and their wepon is strength 4. Now since the added bladestorm ability (or whatever its called) they get three shots at the marine squad before charging. Now once they charge, the enemy gets -1 attacks to a minimum of one attack. This on top of the avengers getting a 5+ invulnerable save.

Theyre not space maarines, but for eldar, this squad has some good offensive power along with some good staying power. I have seen a buddy of mine playtest this squad several times this summer, and if this is what is going to appear in the codex, this will be a damn good marine killing unit, with minimal losses to the avengers.

Posted By Ruleslawyer on 10/10/2006 10:16 PM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/10/2006 5:04 AM
Hey can we get a confirmation that the Veil is a psychic effect and as such Sisters and Grey Knights would be immune?

They wouldnt be immune as even though its a psychic effect, it is not targeted at the Sisters/grey knights (its target is the harlies) and so would not be affected by their nullification abilities.

Interesting name, new poster.  Anyway, yeah, you're right.  Of course, if GW inexplicably decides to declare it a minor power, then it will be worthless.  But no one has minor powers except Chaos anyway.  I'd expect it to be more along the lines of a Warlock power--always on and unhood/aegis-able, unless it's just a straight-up special rule.

He's a Rule Slawyer!

You misspelled slayer, dude.

Or perhaps he's trying to communicate (in code) that he is in fact Paul Sawyer, here incognito!

Im reading it as rules-lawyer, as in some kind of legal person.

Way to go, Banesword.  You killed the joke.  Are you satisfied?

You can order the new Eldar Codex on GW UK now, don't know if this has been brought up yet.

Posted By bigchris1313 on 10/11/2006 12:47 AM
Way to go, Banesword.  You killed the joke.  Are you satisfied?

Leave BanesWord alone.
Not everyone has a sense of humour.

HHeh, the Word of Bain.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>hobo1430 </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

I've been following the eldar codex rumors for the last month or so. I started eldar about 9 months ago while my son did SM. I guess that makes me rather new to the game. However, having played several games, watched some local tournaments, read the forums, and worked on strategy with my son, I would like to make some newbie observations about the new codex.

Welcome to the party!

First, it seemed to me that compared to SM, the problem with the Eldar was very week troop choices (Guardians and DA), particularly given the short range of their primary weapon and poor close combat stats. I completely understand the max/min approach alluded to in other posts--either a squad babysitting a weapon platform or a large mass suicide squad of cheap troops storming across the field using as much cover as they could find. Now, the babysitting option seems gone (too expensive to field min 10). While DA seem to be able to fill the storm squad role, it seems to me the squad size is too small to hold up. With an Exach, a 10 person DA squad costs out (at 134+unknown exarch power costs) to about the same as a 10 man SM squad, but doesn't seem able to hold its own in HtH even with the charge. Moreover, since there is no option to regroup once the unit falls below 50%, they will almost surely run off the table before the game is over.

Eldar much be approached as a combined arms strategy. You simply cannot just match your dire avenger unit with your opponent's space marine unit and call it a day. Also, most that I see will not be using full 10 man units of marines (it's often 7 or less where I play). Add in the effects of guide / fortune / doom or other supporting units and you will begin to take your opponent apart. If you are worried about your troops running off the table use the new beast of an avatar as he makes all your troops within 12" fearless....

In the new codex, I thought the pathfinder looked like the most compelling troop choice, but it doesn't appear that anyone else agrees with me. I do see that the Gaurdian jetbikes may also be an option, but they were so weak in the current codex that I wonder how many people actually have the models

I like pathfinders as well especially when combined with doom! However, my particular play style may not see them be fielded. It all depends on wether or not I keep my mech theme going. Jetbikes will undoubtably be around as most people seem to have at least 3-6 of them. Veterans of 2nd edition and back should have much more than that.

Regarding the elite choices, consider me a grumbling old man, but I get the feeling that most of the existing choices were ignored so that the Harlequins could get center stage. It seems to me that many of the choices in the current codex needed small, but significant updates.
For example, why were Scorpions not given fleet of foot? The reduction to S3 made sense, but why Mover through Cover and Infiltrate? I don't get the reasoning. Moreover, I don't get why these option but not fleet of foot?

It does seem as if the harlies did get all of the attention. (I love them though). The dragons were not ignored however, they are very powerfull now and at a cheaper cost. The wraithguard got more powerful but I'll admit they fixed the wrong problems with them (lol). Scorpions did receive a nerf especially when combined with the new FAQ regarding psychic powers in transports. They have move through cover / infiltrate as it fits their fluff. Fleet of foot is not given due to their heavier aspect armour....besides, if the could fleet of foot even less people would have taken banshees in the old codex..

Wraithguard seem to be a defensive only unit providing a line of defense for more fragile troops. But 35 points each for a defensive unit? (BTW--I do see the offensive ability if mounted in a WS, but too few troops, too few shots, and too many points for a so-so offensive push.) A decrease in points (to 25 each?) rather than a gun upgrade and T6 would have made more sense. The limited range of the gun makes the upgrade nearly useless--one round of shooting and into close combat. My experience has been that Wraithguard are great at just tying up SM's for several turns in HtH since they rarely score enough wounds (after saves) to whittle away a SM unit, but usually last several turns just because they are so hard to beat up. As an elite choice at 35 points each, they should compare (roughly) to a SM terminator and there is just no comparison. Again, try a 7 man Terminator unit (280 pts.) against an 8 unit WG squad (280 pts.)

I played a game last night with the new rules. A 10 man wraithguard unit with warlock & conceal closely supported by an avatar that joined the unit. Fortune the lot and you have something that's nearly indestructable to anything but lots of anti-tank weaponry. If someone wants to engage them in hand to hand that's fine (lol)  Certianly the wraihguard could have used better range or cheaper cost but I still do think that there is potential here. Want to compare terminators to wraithguard? Sure, you can try but you have to look at how the army works as whole in order to do that. You can't really compare the units just against each other.  With our abundance of ap2 weaponry we should pity the players who field terminators against us....

Firedragons are better, but were already great. (Luckily, I have several of them :-}) They kill things great, but are tough to keep alive.

The two tanks used to get them into firing posistion are now even tougher  to kill. Their new guns will instant kill most characters if given the chance. You will now wound MC's on 2+ and penetrate monoliths on a 6' With tank hunter for the unit and the str increase nearly any vehicle targeted is as good as dead even if not at the 6" range....and they are cheaper now as well. I'd say better is an understatement.....I never did understand this particular move by GW....they were already  just fine.

I haven't played banshees or spiders, but I don't see them as having been given any great boost.

Deepstriking a small unit of spiders now gives us the chance to go after peskt whirlwinds and bassiliks etc. Banshees got loads better when combined with doom and the tougher to kill transports. You always have to look at the stuff we combine things with.

The WS seems good, but again, compared to a Rhino, is it overpriced? How much value is a 24" move worth? I don't think I can answer that, but since the WS can't unload troops after moving 12" (the same as the Rhino), I can't see almost double the price. Now, mount a twin-linked weapon and it seems nicer, but so is a Razorback with lascannons.

The waveserpent is certianly cheaper with new codex...especially if you don't put the popular weapons on it....perhaps this is why GW buffed the dragons like they did. As far as to what it is worth? It may be expensive but it certianly gets your troops to where they need to go. With star engines you can now go 36" in a single turn! Also, if they allowed us to assault after moving it would bring back the serpent rush and those days are gone. Sure, landraiders can do it but they cost 250+.

More to the point, why don't the eldar have a low-cost transport especially given the fragility of their troops? Wouldn't such an advanced race find a way to get fragile troops to the front lines quickly without getting shot-up?

If we had fast low cost transports we'd be nearly the same as dark eldar...

Regarding heavy choices, the changes to the wraithlord, falcon, and fire prism all seem reasonable with just a few exceptions. First, why is spirit stone equated to additional armor? Doesn't spirit stone sound more like a Power of the machine spirit upgrade? I also don't see what was wrong with the current version. Finally, if it is extra armor, why does it cost eldar 10 pts while a SM gets extra armor for 5 pts. And if I can anticipate that the answer is how it works with holofield, then why not make holofield cost more and include the downgrade. BTW, I am very glad they didn't change the holofield (or the force shied on the WS for that matter). And finally, why twin-link weapons on the WL for the same cost as two-weapons? That is one I just don't get.

Spirit stone was made into extra armour becasue GW likes to have universal special rules / effects. I could agree that it does sound more like POTMS though. The current version was reviled by opponents of lucky rollers. Mine didn't work all that often but it's just the same effect of when playing a lucky necron roller.....not only doesn't it die but you don't even stop it from shooting you. As far as cost goes you can't compare exrtra armour to spirit stones as it is how they work on the list as a whole. As far as I know they did   make the holofield cost more. I'll agree that TL weapons on the lord seemed pretty dumb to me.

The Dark Reapers seem to have been left way short of their potential. On the stat line they are weaker than SM, but do benefit from a gun that is better than their SM equivalent (Heavy Bolter). Here, the biggest problem is their inability to add troops to the squad to allow for some extra wounds and the ability to upgrade more than one unit member to an exarch. Again, compared to a SM devastator squad, the devastator squad typically adds a few marines so their heavy weapons stay on the table longer and, if they do fail leadership, they automatically regroup the next turn (well almost automatically). On the other hand, the reapers loose big guns with the first wound and, when they fail leadership, they are likely to head straight for the edge of the table since they cannot regroup if they loose 3 units. Why can't reapers add a few guardians to the squad to act as guards for the reapers while they take aim on the advancing marines across the table?

I playtested these guys at 40pts each with a 3+ save and no other changes. I found that when fortuned in cover they were particularly hard to kill. The normal weapons used to kill them in the past were heavy bolters / whirlwinds / assault cannons etc. Now, all of those same weapons received a re-rollable 3+ save against. Sure, if the enemy throws enough firepower at them they can certainly be killed but then they serve the same rolls as the lord / falcon / seer council / avatar in the fact they absorb ridiculous ammounts of firepower leaving that much more of your army untouched. If we allowed them to have ablative wounds on top of that it would just be too powerfull. Now, the reapers are actually a little cheaper as well. Doom can also maximize the wounding potential of these guys if need be.

I've not played warwalkers or heavy weapon platforms that often, and I can't see any reason to start.

Beacause our other heavy choices are so good it is certianlt a problem. I think that some warwalkers will get used and if the vibro cannon doesn't need LOS it will get used...

While I get that the starcannon is the best eldar weapon, I don't think it is the best 40K weapon given the cost. If assault cannons were available to eldar, how many starcannons would be put on the sidelines to make room for them? (That's a rhetorical question--I don't want to start an argument.) I think the best way to handle the starcannon was to handle them similar to the assault cannon in that they are only available to limited units (such as WL's, vypers, and falcons). Again, this makes a lot of sense to me and meshes well with how other "super weapons" are handled.

The assault cannon is the best weapon in the game. The reason that marine players complained about the star cannon was that it was good at every task. The assault cannon is better as well as killing vehicles etc. So they nerfed our "super weapon"....but we got other stuff to make up for it didn't we?

Finally, I am looking forward to the new rules for swooping hawks since I like the models, but couldn't get much out of them in terms of gameplay.

Becasue the old unit was confused as to what it's battlefield role is. You have a light shooting / harrasemet type unit that contains a close combat monster....often reffered to as the EDS. The new rules make them harrassing again and quite dangerous to vehicles as well (especially the monolith)

I haven't played shining spears, but I have used Vypers. What were they thinking?

I don't know what they were thinking but we will certianly see less vypers in the new rules. Nearly noone played with shining spears but the new rules will change that.

OK, well this ended up a lot longer than I thought and please forgive me if my questions seem idiotic to veteran players.

No questions are idiotic if they help someone. 

Finally, after reading some other posts and looking at my own thoughts, I can't help but wonder about GW's motives. With the investment required to play this game, why turn people off by devaluing the investment they've already made? The Harlies do sound great, but why so much better than eldar squads already in the game?

It's all just marketing and the main reason why GW is not  my prefered company or game in general. When a company like GW sells you miniature you are buying them based upon the ruleset that supports them. If miniatures truly sold themelves based off of the miniature themself you would see lots more direavengers & shining spears flying off the shelves in this last edition....sadly, this is not the case. I think that it's bad practice to continually change stuff to force people to buy new stuff. Instead they should just make new units if they feel the need. In addition, if something is really broken balance wise fix it now instead of waiting 4-6 years and making us buy the fixes to a system that you sold us.

Lazarus.

Laz: Out of curiosity, your posts seem to involve lots of farseer buffs - in particular, fortune and doom. How do you aim to maximize returns from your farseers - espescially since "fortune" is a 6" power? This is very constraining if the Farseer is indeed 0-1, and annoying at best if you can have 2 "buff bubbles", since to fortune something, the Farseer is literally attached to that unit at the hip.

Can someone clarifiy if the Farseer entry is 0-1 or no restriction?

I agree 100% with Lazarus.

And that whole Falcon scoing nonsence is a result of long work hours...

I see a lot of people on this forum forgetting that when you field an Army, you are doing just that fielding an Army. Vacuum Hammer is good, but only to the extent of knowing what your individual units can do. Movement, Terrain, Flanking, Combined Arms, Synergy, and Speed, are things a lot of people seem to forget. Eldar is a combined arms finesse force, where half your victory is in your army selection.

Here are the list of things that I wished they could have changed, however:

Make Aspects Better against their entended targets, for example, Banshees should have gotten a Furious Charge Exarch skill (that affects the unit). Scorpions should have an always infiltrate rule and be immune to Rending and Choppa Close Combat effects.

Make Vipers closed top.

But that is pretty much it. I wold like people to stop comparing Eldar to Space Marines, because the playstyle is so different that points values between unit are hard to compare properly. If anything I would compare them with Tau or IG.

Whats all the fuss about Wraith Lord heavy weapons? Presumably the rule is that 2 weapons of the same type become twin linked only. With no limit to having 2 different weapons. Why is it such a big deal to have 2 seperate scatter lasers, star cannon etc. I've always fielded two seperate types of heavy weapon on my models, regardless of race.

For example crisis suits have the same rule...

But does that make them tactically useless? No not at all. Far from it they are some of the most useful units in the Tau army.

Theres more than one kind of weapon for dealing with one kind of situation, and i find it better to have two different weapons for 2 kinds of situations. If I'm kitted up to fight only tanks how will i deal with a huge mob of light infantry?

Like wise, if I'm beefed up to slaughter soft fleshy things, how am i going to handle that steel bohemouth ahead of me?

Eldar have always been a weaker army in respect to armour etc. They are a dying race hanging onto their tattered realm, the glory of the eldar is long gone and I think the changes in the new codex reflect this perfectly.

And come on HBMC the old eldar codex was a joke! And the craftworld supplement was a total waste of time. Your  seriously telling me that you'd prefer this rubbsih and the old models to whats been provided now. That maybe fine for power gamers and tourny nuts but I'd rather have something that is character driven and balanced.

As to your comment about all GW codexs being rubbish, have you not read Codex Space Marines, or Tau Empire. these are two great examples of recently made codexes that are lovely books to read, and good rules.

 

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>keezus </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Laz: Out of curiosity, your posts seem to involve lots of farseer buffs - in particular, fortune and doom. How do you aim to maximize returns from your farseers - espescially since "fortune" is a 6" power? This is very constraining if the Farseer is indeed 0-1, and annoying at best if you can have 2 "buff bubbles", since to fortune something, the Farseer is literally attached to that unit at the hip.

I'm under the impression that farseers are not 0-1. However, I'm not even sure if I'll field more than one seer as the avatar looks very promising (not to mention I'm getting the forge world model)

I mention doom / fortune / guide as the designers have this foremost in their mind when adjusting / creating new units and abilities.

my seer will likely  be bike mounted and he'll be assigned a specific  task to accomplish. With spirit stones he'll be tossing a fortune and doom each turn. In my old list the seer was assgined to the scorpion unit thus making the maximum benifit of fotune each turn. Since the new rules make spirit stones actually affordable I could then doom their target for example.

There is also nothing wrong with "attaching a farseer at the hip" to a unit. Many people attached a seer on a bike to babysit their innacurate prism in the old codex....I see no difference here. 

You need to figure out where your seer will serve you best and utilize him in that role.

Lazarus.

GW has put lots of handy roadblocks in the way of specialized "tactics" based armies:

1.  Build a tank heavy list - get penalized with 50% hull-down, only L3 terrain blocks LOS, inconsistent deployment 1/3 of games due to Escalation.  Transports do not count as scoring units.

2.  Build an elite infantry list - get penalized with no screening.  Target priority is a joke, with vehicles automatically ignoring it and Ld10 failing tests less than 8% of the time.  Too slow if on foot, and penalized with Escalation and non-scoring taxis if mounted.

3.  Normal mounted assault army - penalized by the "wait a turn" syndrome as well as the usual vehicle shenanigans (only L3 blocks LOS, non scoring, escalation etc)

4.  Fast mounted assault army - penalized by 3/4 wounds on destruction of their taxis as well as the usual vehicle shenanigans.  Skimmer mounted armies get the added bonus of not being able to shield your own troops.

5.  Foot based horde army (i.e. 80+ bodies) - unless they infiltrate en-masse, penalized by no-screening, shoot the best ones, general lacklustre toughness (sisters aside), brutalized by enemy rapidfire.

Other mechanics that are interesting but just don't work in V4 are:  Pinning, tank-shock and "No Escape" - which would be interesting tactical choices, if they actually accomplished anything - all of them happening once in a blue moon.  Pinning seems to be almost universally overvalued by GW across all codecies.

Mechanics which are absolutely busted in V4 are:  Ordinance due to the auto-place and scatter - which means that there is always a 1/3 chance of perfect result, and a better than even chance of doing 'something' - which is lacking in every other gun type.  As well, deepstrike seems to be almost a "free" or "rebate" style upgrade compared to infiltrate - which is also too readily available, and not restricted to models on foot!

So getting back to the topic at hand, the Eldar codex wouldn't seem to be so one-trick-pony if the basic ruleset didn't make the use of the "fluffy" units a fool's errand.

Gundammecha:  You're not paying full price for that second gun on the crisis suit.

5 man reaper squads can take on the ubiquitus 6 man tac squads now quite easily, close to wiping out one a turn, while with their range and armour saves fearing little in return. It made them better by degrees now that ap4 can't wipe them out.

And it has to be a little hard to create a codex that can take on the marines, and yet still be balanced against the other armies that sometimes show up. We do all of our comparisons against marine types, but look how much better DAs are against all other opponents now. Shuriken storm will average 13 gaunts or 9 orks dead in one round of shooting if I figured that right. Eldar definately are going to be an interesting and hard army to face on the tabletop, with a lot more options that are viable in games.

I think harlequins as a best unit are a knee jerk reaction. They are very expensive to field, and can be a bomb. I will still field Banshees and Scorpions as they have their uses and in a lot of situations can be more survivable. Once the codex has been played for awhile I can see them dropping off in popularity. But for a lot of us it is the return of a very awesome and characterful part of the Eldar race. The models are great, the rules fitting.

I don't like the cost of twin-linking because it doesn't make sense to me. Twin linked doesn't make the weapon twice as good. Do Marine dreads pay twice the points for the twin linked las-cannon? or autocannon? Do they figure the cost this way across the board? It doesn't seem so.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Mahu </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

And that whole Falcon scoing nonsence is a result of long work hours...

Completely  understood. I pulled two doubles this last week.

I see a lot of people on this forum forgetting that when you field an Army, you are doing just that fielding an Army. Vacuum Hammer is good, but only to the extent of knowing what your individual units can do. Movement, Terrain, Flanking, Combined Arms, Synergy, and Speed, are things a lot of people seem to forget. Eldar is a combined arms finesse force, where half your victory is in your army selection.

It's certianly a hard habit to break.

Make Aspects Better against their entended targets, for example, Banshees should have gotten a Furious Charge Exarch skill (that affects the unit). Scorpions should have an always infiltrate rule and be immune to Rending and Choppa Close Combat effects.

I'll agree with the furious charge....however, now that we have doom it's not needed. As far a scorpions go.....that would make them just plain sick when combined with fortune....I can't agree there.

Make Vipers closed top.

I was seriously hoping for some type of vyper improvements in this new dex. Clos topped as you suggest along with a deepstrike option perhaps? However, the changes made will only serve to put them on the shelf I'm affraid.

But that is pretty much it. I wold like people to stop comparing Eldar to Space Marines, because the playstyle is so different that points values between unit are hard to compare properly. If anything I would compare them with Tau or IG.

Everything  is compared to marines as it is the yardstick that everything  gets compared to. MEQ's account for such a huge percentage of the playing field that it's not even funny. I didn't even know how to act at the last RTT when my avengers got to fire at some storm troopers....wow, I actually wound & kill some of those things (lol)

No matter what you compare things to you must at least take the rest of the list into consideration when doing so. Look at dark eldar warriors compared to guardians. They have bs4 as standard and 24" guns for the same price. Thre can pack crap loads of darklances and splinter cannons into the list.....but you can't really look at it that way can you?

Lazarus.

Keezus, I think one of the main problems is that marines are so played. Most of the special rules benefit them the most. Target priority can be a problem in a lot of other army lists, but since marines are the standard, we don't see it often. It's the same with pinning and a lot of other rules.

Is anyone actually thinking of fielding warwalkers? I'll be getting the new models just for completions sake but I can't really see myself using them...

3 walkers w/ scatter lasers is what I'd likely try just for fun if I had to.

3 walkers w/ shuriken cannons has got to be super cheap but I'm affraid that the weapon's low range will help to kill off the walkers....

Any thoughts? Point costs etc?

Lazarus.

Posted By Lazarus on 10/11/2006 9:15 AM

Make Vipers closed top.

I was seriously hoping for some type of vyper improvements in this new dex.

They improved the points cost... uh...  wait... 

Posted By Lazarus on 10/11/2006 9:24 AM

Is anyone actually thinking of fielding warwalkers? I'll be getting the new models just for completions sake but I can't really see myself using them...

3 walkers w/ scatter lasers is what I'd likely try just for fun if I had to.

3 walkers w/ shuriken cannons has got to be super cheap but I'm affraid that the weapon's low range will help to kill off the walkers....

Any thoughts? Point costs etc?

Lazarus.

I thought I remember folk talking about using 'em for COD, but I could be mistaken. That might be an interesting choice, though...  

Laz:  I used twin scatterlaser walkers in V3 - while they threw out a mean amount of firepower the first turn they step into shooting position (avg 21 shots), the lack of guaranteed hull down and the BS3 med-strength and low AP value of the shots means that:  (a) you aren't killing enough infantry to save the squad from an a$$-raping on your opponent's turn or (b) you didn't glance that tank.

Also, a squad of warwalkers is overkill against skimmers, and while absolutely disgusting against lightly armoured troops, shuriken catapults are only fractionally less effective...

While scout and closed top helps, they suffer from a lack of focus since:  "range too short at the best price" (shuricannon), "weapon not strong enough for the cost at the middle price", (scatterlaser)  and "too few shots, and too expensive at the highest price" (all other options).

I usually field one or two war walkers armed with either scatter and bright lance or scatter and starcannon. I am not sure I will use the second load out anymore and would go with twin scatter. They usually sit back in the back and provide support for the rest of the army. I use them quite a bit in softening up large units and shooting at land speeders and other light vehicles.

Posted By Toreador on 10/11/2006 9:59 AM
I usually field one or two war walkers armed with either scatter and bright lance or scatter and starcannon. I am not sure I will use the second load out anymore and would go with twin scatter. They usually sit back in the back and provide support for the rest of the army. I use them quite a bit in softening up large units and shooting at land speeders and other light vehicles.

Interestingly, the question seems to be geared more towards:

5x Reapers = ~200 vs 2 twin Scatterlaser War Walkers = ~200

Both are obviously non-starters compared to the falcon in terms of flexibility. 

Scatterlaser Warwalkers Pros/Cons

The warwalkers are more mobile than reapers.
Scout
S6 vs S5
2 glances on speeders at 8 shots
50% hull down at best
Low AV and easy to shake/stun
Low BS

Dark Reapers Pros/Cons

Can get cover saves and benefit from fortune.
Have 48" range vs 38"
AP3 vs AP5
BS4
2 2/9 glances vs speeders on 10 shots
Can't be shaken/stunned
Each casualty degrades firepower
No move and fire
May flee

Yeah I remember remarking on the viability of walkers in COD.

But because of the environment, its a whole new ballpark and different units come to light.

That said, its a tough call what to take HS wise in COD, as all options are viable as far as wraithlords, warwalkers, falcons.

I still think that walkers are the weakest choice, but they do have their uses. I think in an all comers list for COD, it would be foolish to discount walkers out of hand without serious consideration.

As a rule, infantry are better for survivabilty than vehicles, but walkers reward the careful player who chooses their fights with a high rate of fire.

Though, I would mot pay any more points for a walker than the scatter laser, as you know they will fall anyways, so why spend even more points on a unit that will fall in short course.

maneuvering in city fight will be a pain though, as three large bases will be stupid to form right in dense terrain. I think that the same will hold true for warwalkers as does crisis suits. 2 models in the unit being optimum for maneuvering purposes.

Though I have to say in Keezus example is a bit off if the rumors are true.

If the rumours are true, then you will be able to field 3 warwalkers with twin scatter at 180 points. But only slight adjustments need to be made for calculations which any 2nd grader should be able to do without keezus modifying his post.

I'll be fielding twin scatterlaser warwalkers as replacements for my single scatterlaser vipers. I like to get a few heavy weapon platforms in the enemy flanks if I can, to take out indirect fire weapons and/or long range weapons protected by terrain, which the vipers were ideal for. However with the vipers points increase and the fact that the warwalkers now have the scout rule they can perform that role in a comparable way. Also the warwalkers are closed topped and three can put out can put out 24 S6 shots per turn. I'm won over. The volume of fire is arguably the most important factor though because with the new rules 24 shots will average out to about 10 wounds which will force your opponent to roll seperate armor saves for their heavy/special weapons, leaders, etc. Also the problem with the shuriken cannon is that it will pull you into range of most small fire weapons which will bring trouble.

With regards to the arguement that the other heavy choices are better I don't necessarily agree. Arguably the falcon is the best tank in the game and the best heavies choice, but I still don't like to use more than two leaving myself with one more choice. The wraithlord doesn't appeal to me as much as it used to. It needs to be babysat, costs more, and there are too many rending weapons running around now. Dark reapers are the other Heavy choice I still like but for a different role. For me they're MEQ killers and that's about it.

Just one side note. With the Eldar I think that talking about survivability is an interesting issue. In the previous edition with a combination of fortune and the fact that so many of my opponents tend to focus thier heavy weapons trying to take out my more survivable units, such as the falcon and wraithlord, and have a tendency to ignore my more vulnerable dark reapers and vipers despite the fact that they are putting out more firepower overall and have done more damage to their army .

In CoD, it's the Wraithlord hands doen. A toughness 8 monstroud creature taking a building? Priceless.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Mahu </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

In CoD, it's the Wraithlord hands doen. A toughness 8 monstroud creature taking a building? Priceless.

I did that last night....fortune the lord if you want to be mean (lol)

Yeah, my assessment of the walkers is that I won't buse them much....not sure why I buy them though...lol

Lazarus.

OK, I'm trying to get this whole "it's the whole army thing", but I've tried many, many combinations and I just don't see it. It still comes down to lists (1850 pts) with either:
1) all of the same killer type (farseers, 3 falcons, 2 harlies/1 FD in falcon or FD in WS/1 max harlie w/ WS, DA or Gaurdian bikes just enough to be legal and live a turn or two)
or
2) an army with mixed units that just doesn't hold-up.

I find the first incredibly boring (as well as expensive since most of those units didn't exist or were poor choices before) and the second--well why field an army that is going to just get kicked around.

The other thing I don't get is there is a constant mention of this unit or that unit being great with fortune or doom, but how are you getting all those farseer's into the list with the points restriction? Again, while at first glance the Eldar seem incredibly rich in choices, analysis seems to say just the opposite--take from very few choices or get hammered.

Now, my apologies to those who don't like comparison to SM. I've very little experience with other armies. So, the point is, again, compared to SM, they just seem predictable whereas SM are incredibly diverse and still playable in lots of configurations. So, if the eldar are predictable to the people who know the armies, how can they not be predictable to our opponents. Granted, that doesn't make them weak, but does make them boring. And, more to the point, is this how GW does business? If so, maybe it's time to shelf 40K and go with another game.

Please, someone tell me I'm wrong (with examples).

Hobo1430 - You hit it right on the head. - Then, I could be wrong as well.

I find it very telling that on the eve of GWs triumphant return to Q4 profits that they release the long anticipated Eldar codex...

...complete with repackaged products pushing competitive tournament armies running anywhere from $700-$1000 cdn (due to the requirements of bikes, tanks and harlequins)...

...that maybe veteran players are somewhat underwhelmed with the fact that they could conceivably rebuy a significant portion of army (for many times the cost of what a tournament sized army costs for their erstwhile competitor), only to produce an army made up of a small cross section of the total armylist...

Hopefully kids will buy this up. I already rebought a huge chunk of eldar stuff during V3 (I'm sure I own over 150 various aspect warriors). I have plentiful amounts of everything in the codex other than support batteries, bikes, spears and prisms... With such a diverse cross section, you'd think that I could put a diverse list together...

Of firedragons in falcons

Thanks GW.

Fool me once... shame on you.
Fool me twice... shame on me.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>hobo1430 </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

OK, I'm trying to get this whole "it's the whole army thing", but I've tried many, many combinations and I just don't see it. It still comes down to lists (1850 pts) with either:
1) all of the same killer type (farseers, 3 falcons, 2 harlies/1 FD in falcon or FD in WS/1 max harlie w/ WS, DA or Gaurdian bikes just enough to be legal and live a turn or two)
or
2) an army with mixed units that just doesn't hold-up.

I disagree. You have said that you haven't played Eldar that long....could that have something to do with it? They do not play in the same fashion that a marine army would for example. I have been playing eldar for a very long time and have won with them in numerous configurations over the years.

I find the first incredibly boring (as well as expensive since most of those units didn't exist or were poor choices before) and the second--well why field an army that is going to just get kicked around.

What your opponents are fielding could have much to do with this. There are many factors to consider when trying to figure out why your list is not performing to satisfaction...

The other thing I don't get is there is a constant mention of this unit or that unit being great with fortune or doom, but how are you getting all those farseer's into the list with the points restriction?

You doom an enemy  unit. From what I understand anything shooting at it will get to re-roll wounds.....that sounds like good coverage to me and goes along with that whole combined arms strategy doesn't it? Fortune will be used on what needs it most. Obvioulsy you can't have it everywhere and I never meant to imply that. You can't fit every  unit into your list every time anyways right? With the ability to take 2 seers you could be using 2 dooms and 2 fortunes a turn. Currently I use a single seer who casts fortune and most of my opponents hate that already....you put it on the right unit and it becomes very effective.

Again, while at first glance the Eldar seem incredibly rich in choices, analysis seems to say just the opposite--take from very few choices or get hammered.

We have more viable choices now than before. Sure, some choices will be better but the others are certianly more playable than in the last codex. At least that's my opinion...

Now, my apologies to those who don't like comparison to SM. I've very little experience with other armies. So, the point is, again, compared to SM, they just seem predictable whereas SM are incredibly diverse and still playable in lots of configurations. So, if the eldar are predictable to the people who know the armies, how can they not be predictable to our opponents. Granted, that doesn't make them weak, but does make them boring. And, more to the point, is this how GW does business? If so, maybe it's time to shelf 40K and go with another game.

Eldar are predictable  compared to space marines? Predictable in which way? I don't think my army is any more predictable than anyone else's army. I can pretty much look at your army that you put on the table and tell you what you will try and do with it. That's just a matter of knowing everyones codex and what it is capable of....

If I had to compare eldar to marines about which one was more "boring" it would certianly be marines....they all look to much alike (lol)

Most of the reasons people compare Eldar (or anything) to marines is that it is the most common opponent you will be facing. People get soo hung up on this that they sometimes can't see the game as a whole anymore....

Lazarus.

it really depends on your environment and opponents Hobo. GT tournies can be a lot different than RT tournies and even local games. Your opponents can dramatically change your play style.

I have never really played much of a mech force. I usually do well against my opponents. I always use Dire Avengers, Banshees and usually Scorpions. WarWalkers show up in my list from time to time. I have taken some local tournies with a mostly infantry list. I can number crunch all I want, but I choose my armies based more on what happens after games. I switch things around and adapt to what happens.

Theory is great, but your mileage may vary a lot. The internet is more of a top level discussion of the armies. How would army do against the best of the best army B. You may never encounter said army in normal play, but that is what we compare it against. I have absolutely no luck with some units other people find very affective, on the other hand I really like some units people find bad. (some units like the old shining spears were just horrible no matter)

So really, pick and choose your own way. Until we see Harlies in action, or new Fire Dragons we won't know how they will actually do in games. People adapt and respond to changes in lists to make their own armies better.

And every game has it's issues with people taking what is efficient. Take Warmachine for example and Hordes. You see a lot of the same armies with little changes here and there form different factions. There are some solos you see in almost all armies, the only reason some people don't take them is because "everyone" does. There is a lot of cookie cutter in all games. People gravitate to the better performing units in any list that is effective against the opponents in their area. Almost any game is that way.

And really, everything is opinion. Have fun playing what you like, not what others tell you to.

So really, choose your own way.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>keezus </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

I find it very telling that on the eve of GWs triumphant return to Q4 profits that they release the long anticipated Eldar codex...



...complete with repackaged products pushing competitive tournament armies running anywhere from $700-$1000 cdn (due to the requirements of bikes, tanks and harlequins)...

This is nothing new.....you don't think it was just a coincidence that the assault cannon got great new rules along with new plastic terminators do you? Do you think that Lysander was put in the codex to seel terminator armies to people to use? Old news from GW....I dpn't like their practices in this regard but I'm certianly not surprised by them anymore....

...that maybe veteran players are somewhat underwhelmed with the fact that they could conceivably rebuy a significant portion of army (for many times the cost of what a tournament sized army costs for their erstwhile competitor), only to produce an army made up of a small cross section of the total armylist...

Some of us have huge collection and so will not have to buy alot of this stuff. (bikes / spears / prisms / avengers etc.) However, take heart in knowing we had to already pay for this stuff and then watch it sit on the shelf for years & years (lol)

Also, not everyone plays in tournaments. To those players this codex is truly awesome. Most seem to forget that this is supposed to be a fun game where you play with little toy soldiers....it doesn't always have to be serious. 

Lazarus.

Posted By keezus on 10/11/2006 1:26 PM
Fool me once... shame on you.
Fool me twice... shame on me.

Words of true wisdom and words to live by.

You must keep in mind that there are a small variety of ways to use armies that GW has provided to keep naysayers like myself happy. Combat patrol, kill team, (even combined with COD!)  makes alot of these units (such as warwalkers for instance) useful and maybe even quite good.

I am hoping more and more people realize the potential of these very nice "side games" that GW has provided, in order so that the days of making RTT or GT lists will be long gone.

Snakes on a plane is good for those, but not even legal in combat patrol or killteam.

Thats what makes comabt patrol and kill team so much better than ordinary 40K. Less models to buy, quicker games. its hard to even compare 40k with killteam and combat patrol.

Whats the point in preparing this horrendously long lists for competitive use when GW cant even get their act together and make rules that stand up to the slightest breeze of scrutiny?

Sorry for the tangent, but I agree with Keezus, which is why I made this post. To compliment it hopefully.

I think it is funny that everything is a conspiracy anymore. GW generally tries to fix things that are blatant issues to them in the game, and yet keep balance. The assault cannon and bolter are suppose to be marine staples. The assault cannon sucked in the old rules. So they improve it, and now it is a conspiracy.

If they truly designed rules to sell models then wouldn't Monoliths be cheaper so you could have more? Wouldn't they have designed new "super crazy" rules for rhinos to make them unstoppable so they would sell tons? Or maybe war walkers?

No, they design rules and try to keep things balanced. Sometimes you have to throw things out into the world of gaming to truly find out how good it is, or broken often with very unexpected results.

Wraithlords sold well ever since inception. Did they make them crazy powerful now? No. Jess came out with some new concepts, they discussed how to balance it out and it is now a very different wraithlord. They probably have no idea when designing some of the models and rules how much it will even cost to produce in the end.

Laz: 

You're right about gaming environments.  I used to be a more laid back player... however it only takes one "bring an abusive list" player to ruin the whole environment.  One club I gamed with on a regular basis went through ever escalating levels of powergaming because nobody wanted to loose all the time.  That and combined with my repuatation for being a vortex of negative dice karma always leads me to pad all my decisions with a healthy dose of statistcal probability.

However, I must disagree on the "accept the codex and let models sit on the shelf" thing.  To me, it is utterly unacceptable to expect a player to "take heart, and that their swooping hawks, support batteries... (or insert crap unit here) will be better in the next edition"... because:

1.  They are cool models, were not inexpensive and they are paid for already.
2.  They waited an entire edition in hopes that they'd be worthwhile.
3.  They must now wait an entire new edition in hopes that they'd be worthwhile.

That's 20 years of uselessness.  How any company can take a product that has sucked for 10 years and then immediately made to suck an additional 10 years is beyond me.  To expect the customer to tolerate this is ridiculous, and no amount icing sugar on this will disguise these turds for what they really are.  (For some new generals, it might require a bite, but once you've had a taste, I'm sure you'll agree, Support Batteries are crap.)

The fact that I have 5000 points of Eldar already does not enter the equation at all.  I can adjust without buying much more stuff... but the fact that the MAJORITY of my collection is shelf and/or box-bound is maddening.  I had a bad feeling when Phil Kelly wrote the USF rules and then proclaimed them to be a worthy army... now I know my fears were well founded.

Torreador:

As for Warmachine - Warmachine is not a good comparison in army construction (and should only be compared to Warhammer and WH40k as game systems)...  Warmachine lets you fundamentally change the dynamic of your army by changing a single HQ model.  In addition, the "wave" release system alows for their studio to dynamically rebalance the armies every 8-12 months or so.  With GW games, you're stuck with your list (and any obsolete models from previous edition) for the entire edition.

Finally - as for the point that certain models find their way into every Warmachine list - it is because that model fulfils a specialized purpose and is the -only- unit that fulfils that purpose.  A good example is the Khador widowmakers.  These are Khador's only advance deploy shooting troop.  If you want a unit to kill unit leaders, or advance deploy, or both, you use it...  (other notables are Eyriss and the Junior Warcaster) - The funny thing is that when two units share the same niche and are both awesome... you see players taking BOTH instead of one or the other... a good example of this is the Exemplar Senechal and the Paladin, Order of the Wall.

In 40k, you often use a unit because the alternative is terrible...  A good example is Slugga Boyz over Shoota Boyz and Stickbommaz... Its not so much that the Slugga Boyz are overwhelmingly awesome, but that the other Boyz are kind of lacklustre.  This is a direct result rigid format of the force organization chart, and Fantasy does not really have this problem to the same extent.

Posted By Hellfury on 10/11/2006 1:53 PM

You must keep in mind that there are a small variety of ways to use armies that GW has provided to keep naysayers like myself happy. Combat patrol, kill team, (even combined with COD!)  makes alot of these units (such as warwalkers for instance) useful and maybe even quite good.

I am hoping more and more people realize the potential of these very nice "side games" that GW has provided, in order so that the days of making RTT or GT lists will be long gone...

Thats what makes comabt patrol and kill team so much better than ordinary 40K. Less models to buy, quicker games. its hard to even compare 40k with killteam and combat patrol.

 

Amen brother. It's amazing what COD, Combat Patrol and Killteam do for your armies of chocie and how you look at them. 40k leaves me cold, but COD gets me psyched up for my Freak Show Witch Hunters, Combat Patrol for my Grenadiers, and Kill Team for my Afriel Strain vets, my Howling Banshees, and all kinds of crazy stuff.

I just wish more people in the area played something other than 1850 prep-for-tournament type games...

Posted By syr8766 on 10/11/2006 2:22 PM

Posted By Hellfury on 10/11/2006 1:53 PM

You must keep in mind that there are a small variety of ways to use armies that GW has provided to keep naysayers like myself happy. Combat patrol, kill team, (even combined with COD!)  makes alot of these units (such as warwalkers for instance) useful and maybe even quite good.

I am hoping more and more people realize the potential of these very nice "side games" that GW has provided, in order so that the days of making RTT or GT lists will be long gone...

Thats what makes comabt patrol and kill team so much better than ordinary 40K. Less models to buy, quicker games. its hard to even compare 40k with killteam and combat patrol.

 

Amen brother. It's amazing what COD, Combat Patrol and Killteam do for your armies of chocie and how you look at them. 40k leaves me cold, but COD gets me psyched up for my Freak Show Witch Hunters, Combat Patrol for my Grenadiers, and Kill Team for my Afriel Strain vets, my Howling Banshees, and all kinds of crazy stuff.

I just wish more people in the area played something other than 1850 prep-for-tournament type games...

I agree 100%.  The local GW outlet is doing a sort of SUPER kill-team where you take a 5 man team of Guardsman equivalents into a Plague Zombie infested map...  Its got me totally excited about 40k again!  I'm either going to paint a 1 off unit of storm troopers or sisters of battle...  W00T.

Also, some new missions in WD (possibly with fixed armylists or asymetric points values) would be a breath of fresh air.... ARE YOU READING THIS, WHITE DWARF EDITORS????? 

It still doesn't matter much. When you show up to Warmachine tournies and there are only cookie cutter style armies it turns into the same thing that he was talking about above.

In 40k you can make all kinds of minor changes, different wargear, different vehicle loadouts, different gear on units. In Warmachine you can't do that, so the variety is based around the casters. Still a lot of cookie cutter.

Almost every time I have played against other 40k armies I will see a lot of little differences. So to really say that anything in 40k is truly a cookie cutter is a misnomer. Warmachine would have the greatest chance of being that with the variety only in units you take and not the individual models, but it isn't always the same.

Yes, Warmachine does keep releasing and changing rules and balance. It also can make some units completely useless. I still have a menoth Jack from the basic starter set that is still useless today.

No game is or will ever be perfect.

We play a lot of 500 and 1000pt games around my group. It changes the dynamic totally. In fact the 1000pt games I find to be some of the most fun.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>keezus </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

You're right about gaming environments.  I used to be a more laid back player... however it only takes one "bring an abusive list" player to ruin the whole environment.  One club I gamed with on a regular basis went through ever escalating levels of powergaming because nobody wanted to loose all the time.  That and combined with my repuatation for being a vortex of negative dice karma always leads me to pad all my decisions with a healthy dose of statistcal probability.

I know what you mean. Our group tends to bring some fairly stiff lists to the competition nowdays but that's what happens when people compete for money / prizes (lol). I'm slowly getting burned out on tourneys anyways....

However, I must disagree on the "accept the codex and let models sit on the shelf" thing.  To me, it is utterly unacceptable to expect a player to "take heart, and that their swooping hawks, support batteries... (or insert crap unit here) will be better in the next edition"... because:

1.  They are cool models, were not inexpensive and they are paid for already.
2.  They waited an entire edition in hopes that they'd be worthwhile.
3.  They must now wait an entire new edition in hopes that they'd be worthwhile.

I'm not meaning to say that I agree with GW's approach on this. I'm saying that I have more of my models usefull this time around than I did in the last codex...that's got to be a little improvement right?

That's 20 years of uselessness.  How any company can take a product that has sucked for 10 years and then immediately made to suck an additional 10 years is beyond me.  To expect the customer to tolerate this is ridiculous, and no amount icing sugar on this will disguise these turds for what they really are.  (For some new generals, it might require a bite, but once you've had a taste, I'm sure you'll agree, Support Batteries are crap.)

I've been playing this game for about that long. GW is far from perfect but they must be just good enough that we still tolerate this and buy their products. Customers speak with their wallets....

The fact that I have 5000 points of Eldar already does not enter the equation at all.  I can adjust without buying much more stuff... but the fact that the MAJORITY of my collection is shelf and/or box-bound is maddening.  I had a bad feeling when Phil Kelly wrote the USF rules and then proclaimed them to be a worthy army... now I know my fears were well founded.

Currently I have a little over 21,000 points worth of eldar. There will certianly be stuff hitting the shelf but what am I to do about it? I did all of my *female dog*ing about it on a different forum about 2 months ago. I decided to then accept it and make the most of it as there was nothing that I could do about it anywas. We can always move on to other games and for the most part 40K is a secondary game for me now...

You don't like USF? I actually enjoy that army from time to time and find them quite competitive as well....

As for Warmachine - Warmachine is not a good comparison in army construction (and should only be compared to Warhammer and WH40k as game systems)...  Warmachine lets you fundamentally change the dynamic of your army by changing a single HQ model.  In addition, the "wave" release system alows for their studio to dynamically rebalance the armies every 8-12 months or so.  With GW games, you're stuck with your list (and any obsolete models from previous edition) for the entire edition.

I still vastly prefer warmachine / hordes to 40K. 

In 40k, you often use a unit because the alternative is terrible...  A good example is Slugga Boyz over Shoota Boyz and Stickbommaz... Its not so much that the Slugga Boyz are overwhelmingly awesome, but that the other Boyz are kind of lacklustre.  This is a direct result rigid format of the force organization chart, and Fantasy does not really have this problem to the same extent.

There is always a "better" unit in any list. Once we get out of competitive play mode (ie tournaments) we seem to be able to make use of alot more of our units. It's easier for me to inlude certian things when my opponent isn't dripping cheddar all over the place...

Fantasy hgas a much better FOC type system and 40K should have taken notes from it. I believe that they are intentionally kept different to retain a different feel for each game..

Lazarus.

Posted By Lazarus on 10/11/2006 1:34 PM
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>hobo1430 </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

OK, I'm trying to get this whole "it's the whole army thing", but I've tried many, many combinations and I just don't see it. It still comes down to lists (1850 pts) with either:
1) all of the same killer type (farseers, 3 falcons, 2 harlies/1 FD in falcon or FD in WS/1 max harlie w/ WS, DA or Gaurdian bikes just enough to be legal and live a turn or two)
or
2) an army with mixed units that just doesn't hold-up.

I disagree. You have said that you haven't played Eldar that long....could that have something to do with it? They do not play in the same fashion that a marine army would for example. I have been playing eldar for a very long time and have won with them in numerous configurations over the years.

Inexperience is part of it.  But here's the thing, I've been slowly trying to learn the strenghts and weaknesses of an army that I want to model.  When I heard a new codex was being written, I thought it would address some of the obvious problems with the troop units.  Perhaps in a way it did with the DA, but why weaken the GDef troops by taking away an obvious possiblity.  As I look at it, why weaken units that were already weak?  That single change has made almost useless several units that I just prepared (time and money) within the last few months.  The same can be said for vypers.  Even warlocks and farseers (with the point increase) lost some aspects of their support role.  In short, I can't field the army I designed and started to collect less than 6 month ago thanks to the point increases and rule changes.  That hasn't left me feeling all that confident in the game.

The other thing I don't get is there is a constant mention of this unit or that unit being great with fortune or doom, but how are you getting all those farseer's into the list with the points restriction?

You doom an enemy  unit. From what I understand anything shooting at it will get to re-roll wounds.....that sounds like good coverage to me and goes along with that whole combined arms strategy doesn't it?

Sorry, my mistake.  Again though, how can you get  a farseer close enough to the enemy to Doom them while still being able to protect your heavy support and defensive troops with Fortune.  And with the Farseer and warlock points increase, how do you afford to field 2 or 3 farseers?

So, the point is, again, compared to SM, they just seem predictable whereas SM are incredibly diverse and still playable in lots of configurations.

Eldar are predictable  compared to space marines?

Yes, in the sense that if you want a competetive army, you are forced to pick obvious choices.  That's not true with marines.  You can field a very competetive SM army without a landraider.  You can create a competetive army around  terminators or dreadnaughts or a veteran squad or you can mix and match.  The same can be said about assault troop or landspeeders and the various tanks.  Yes, there are some clear support only choices like bikes, devestator sqads, and techmarines, but the point is you can have 10 SM players and every army will look different and have a different character and the only overlap will be the troop choices.  Can the same be said of eldar?  Can a competetive eldar army not have a falcon?  or fire dragons?  or (now) harlies? or farseer(s)?   Now that I think about it, the "character" of an eldar army will likely be in the troop choice.  Yes, we could put together armies with different choices, but I am doubtful of the success. That's what I meant by predictable.

If I had to compare eldar to marines about which one was more "boring" it would certianly be marines....they all look to much alike (lol)

Yes--they do look alike paintwise.  But isn't that how armies look in real life?  Variety in paint scheme is not the point--especially if done nicely .

Most of the reasons people compare Eldar (or anything) to marines is that it is the most common opponent you will be facing. People get soo hung up on this that they sometimes can't see the game as a whole anymore....

I suspect that it would take a great deal of time to see the game as a whole. In the meantime, how will a new player feel trying to play something (other that SM's) only to find out that what they put together will take a fair amount of skill to win with (something easily taken for granted) against their most likely opponent, and, if that's not daunting enough, when they finally get it together, the rules change?  In hindsight, I wish I had stayed away from Eldar--I didn't know about the new codex when I started and I certainly didn't expect the negative ramifications that it would bring about for my choices.

Lazurus,  I thank you for your comments and insights.  I look forward to seeing some 4th edition eldar army lists posted here.  In the end, I will keep playing, if for no other reason than to have some fun with my son.

I think the new Eldar armies will have some variety.

Previously the only competitive units were:

Seer Council
Avatar
Fire Dragons
Guardians
Vypers
Wraithlords
Falcons

Now we have all of the above and in addition the Autarch, Harlequins, Jetbikes, Shining Spears, Fire Prisms, War Walkers (to an extent), so things have definately improved. The Codex didn't improve as much as we would've liked but it still improved there's no disputing that fact. Also I don't agree at all that Codex: SM allows for more different types of competitive armies than Codex: Eldar. There's the shooty Space Marine army and there's the drop army and there's very little variation on what you should include if you wish to remain competitive.

Hobo, I think you are taking things in a vacuum. Play a bit with the new book before you discount things.

The farseer can be mounted on a bike or just running around. You pick your best opportunities with what is available and what is in reach. You position yourself as needed.

Funny thing about the competitive units you posted Therion. This is what I field out of it:
Guardians
Vypers
Wraithlords
Falcons

I never field:
Seer Council
Avatar
Fire Dragons


and I only ever fielded guardians because I needed to for support weapons. Usually in min sizes. I came from the early days and based most of my army around aspect warriors. I do quite well with them in friendly and RT games. So the new Eldar list gives me a lot more viable options and only benefits the army I already play. There are now even more units to choose from for me, and the lower cost of some of what I already field will give me more to put on the table.

Yes, most Eldar armies field Falcons. Most Marine armies field either a predator or land raider. The thing about marines is they are easy. You can choose most units, and they really are a lot alike. Eldar units are completely different. You have to field specific units to complete specific tasks. Marines are generally good at anything, so you can have a little more variety without issue.

Eldar you will see a variety mostly in what armies they play against. But, since marines are the most common, you will see eldar armies tooled against marines. Therefore they mostly will look the same.

If you were going up againsta horde tyranid list would you field Harlequins, or would you field 3 war walkers with scatter lasers? Different armies change things immensely.

Hobo, you aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

Back in the days of models blocking LOS, I used to run a 20 man guardian squad for LOS blocking purposes to my min sized platforms and I found that it was pretty decent at stopping units at close range with guide. A full 20 man squad, guided by a nearby farseer, kills 5 marines on average. It isnt the best use of 160 points, but it isnt a bad unit.

Personally, having read the Codex I feel its all good. Basically They seem to have taken up the challenge of what people complain about the most on both sides of the eldar argument. Firstly they have got rid of most of the abuses of both Eldar codices (especially craftworld ). 50 man seer councils with ablative warlocks - gone, all Fire Dragon Biel Tann - gone, All Vyper Saim Hann - gone, Disruption table - gone, small 5 man guardian squads with Weapons platform - gone, Exarch delivery system - gone, fire support aspects with solely close combat exarchs - gone ( and vice versa). Sure we lost a few things, black guardians, Kinsmen to name a few but we yhave gained so much more.

On the plus side they have given farseers a very effective anti-psyker piece of war gear, cheaper bikes, better warwalkers with scout rule, better Dire Avengers, Str 8 melta weapons on fire dragons, another HQ choice with plenty of wargear options, Swooping Hawks may re deep strike ( If you read it, Skyleap is an awesome ability) , More wargear for exarchs, Better and cheaper Shining spears (with hit and run , Str 6 powerweapons on charge and the lance abiltity), cheaper jetbikes, 3+ save on Dark Reapers, a new psychic power, Avatar with 3+/4+ invulnerable and cannot be affected by melta or flamer weapons, BS4 Fire Prisms with dual fire modes and ability to stack, More flexible (though more expensive in points) Wraithlord, now you can equip Defenders with a platform on a Wavesepent. I can't think of much more and in truth there are no no-brainer decisions about Eldar anymore. Even more so the eldar have become a finesse army with plenty of choices but little abuses

Ruleslawyer

Posted By Ruleslawyer on 10/11/2006 11:52 PM

Swooping Hawks may re deep strike ( If you read it, Skyleap is an awesome ability)

Really?  Best case scenario:

Turn 1 - advance.

Turn 2 - move into position and assault tank with haywires

Turn 3 - Skyleap

Turn 4 - Deep Strike out of LOS of heavy bolters and ass cannons but also within assault range of a tank

Turn 5 - assault tank with haywires

Turn 6 - grab an objective

But will those assaults destroy the tank?  If your opponent sees swooping hawks moving toward an expensive tank, he's going to move it the 6" he can.  There go half your hits.  Even if all 10 guys survive to hit the tank, that's 5 hits.  3.33 glancing and .833 penetrating.  That's not even a 50% chance of destroying the thing.  Maybe you immobilize it and get 1/2 the VPs.  So realistically you're going to need 2 turns to take down a tank if you haven't softened it up with some long-range firepower.  Even then, you've got to find the tank.  Hawks are mobile, but heavy bolters and asscans will cut them down like rebels charging cemetary ridge.

Having destroyed the first tank, you get to DS.  Fun.  Unlike drop pods, you don't get to A) ignore enemy troops B) ignore impassable terrain or C) get your own guaranteed cover.  Even then, your enemy gets 1 turn to lay the hat on you.  I'd "waste" a Battle Cannon template on you before you even have a chance to do touch the vehicle you're looking for--unlike Termies, who get to unload a pair of asscans the moment they touch down, your hawks get to sit around thumbing the hammers on their lasblasters for a turn while they duck and cover.  I'd "waste" a plasma cannon template on you.  I'd bring my single HB/Asscan speeder into LOS and nail you for 4 hawks.  Remember about those templates: you're not just DSing 5 Termies, but a fat squad of 8 or even 10 hawks.

If you DS with a big group of hawks, you run the risk of hurting yourself on landing, then getting torn up by templates, or whatever else can see you thanks to your random drop location.  You aren't using a VoD with Necrons.  You don't get T4, a 3+, and you wont' be back.

The fact is, a 12" terrain-ignoring move and a D6" fleet move is nothing to scoff at.  At least if you advance without skyleaping you know where you'll end up.

The one thing it might be useful for is skyleaping on turn 5 and grabbing an objective on turn 6, especially if you opted to let your opponent go first.  Of course, if you do roll that 1, you won't be on the table at all.  Ouch.  I think if it's cheap enough, it might be worth it just to get on objectives in the last turn.  But Hawks are expensive as it is, and I think they'll still need to prove themselves competent vehicle killers (moreso than Harlequins, FDs, etc) before they make it into my list.  Once I decide they are worth taking, then I just might take Skyleap.  If it's cheap enough.  And if I feel like Tommy Tuberville.

Not only that, but they still have those ordnance sized template grenades that they let loose wherever they feel like before deepstriking.

Its str 3, but its a nice freebie. Add that into whenever you deepstrike and it might get a bit fun. I can imagine two units leapfrogging in and out of combat every other turn.

Oh yeah, and you always hit any vehicle on a 4+ supposedly, no matter how far it moved or if it is a skimmer. Even monoliths shall fear this unit if this is true.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>hobo1430 </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Inexperience is part of it.  But here's the thing, I've been slowly trying to learn the strenghts and weaknesses of an army that I want to model.  When I heard a new codex was being written, I thought it would address some of the obvious problems with the troop units.  Perhaps in a way it did with the DA, but why weaken the GDef troops by taking away an obvious possiblity.  As I look at it, why weaken units that were already weak?  That single change has made almost useless several units that I just prepared (time and money) within the last few months.  The same can be said for vypers.  Even warlocks and farseers (with the point increase) lost some aspects of their support role.  In short, I can't field the army I designed and started to collect less than 6 month ago thanks to the point increases and rule changes.  That hasn't left me feeling all that confident in the game.

It is difficult to plan an army when a codex is coming out as you do not know what will still fit into your plans without knowing the rule changes. I mostly play mech Biel-Tan right now (current rules) so don't normally use guardians much. However, when I do use them (formerly and Ulthwe player) I never used less than 10-14 in a unit. With that in mind having to field a minimun of 10 has no affect on me whatsoever. Also, they can ride in a serpent with 12 models and a platform....how is this not better than before? Certian vyper weapon loadout choices go weaker (star cannon) or more expensive (brightlance) yet I hardly ever fielded those either. I prefer the scatter laser / shuriken cannon combo as it is simply great for busting transports / light vehicles with the now guaranteed 7 str 6 shots. The cheaper jetbikes may well force me to choose them over the vyper but I still see this particular vyper could  have a place.  Warlocks & seers are certianly still viable...so we lost ablative wound warlocks...that was needed if you ask anyone.

Post your army list of what you were going to field before the changes and lets' take a look at this. Maybe between all of us we can come up with a solution for you on how to salvage as much as possible, remain competitive and be happy about it.

Sorry, my mistake.  Again though, how can you get  a farseer close enough to the enemy to Doom them while still being able to protect your heavy support and defensive troops with Fortune.  And with the Farseer and warlock points increase, how do you afford to field 2 or 3 farseers?

Doom has a range of 24" so getting close enough isn't much of a problem. What size games do you play? This will have a lot to do with determining what you can afford (1 seer or 2 for example). 1850 is pretty much our standard game here. As I've said in previous posts you need to figure out what you seers job is. If you want him fortuning your reapers then you know the use of doom will have a smaller range. (if both are cast at begining of turn) You could have the seer 6" in front of the reapers who deployed 4" in lets say. With that in mind you reach in a total of 34" into the board for doom coverage. Rest asured the enemy will soon be there if not already as that only leaves 14" of board. Infiltrators etc are easy to get with this no less deepstrikers when you see them. If you do not like doing it this way then don't fortune your heavies. Fortune the avatar for example and support his advance. It is really up to you to make the most of it.

Yes, in the sense that if you want a competetive army, you are forced to pick obvious choices.  That's not true with marines.  You can field a very competetive SM army without a landraider.  You can create a competetive army around  terminators or dreadnaughts or a veteran squad or you can mix and match.  The same can be said about assault troop or landspeeders and the various tanks.  Yes, there are some clear support only choices like bikes, devestator sqads, and techmarines, but the point is you can have 10 SM players and every army will look different and have a different character and the only overlap will be the troop choices.  Can the same be said of eldar?  Can a competetive eldar army not have a falcon?  or fire dragons?  or (now) harlies? or farseer(s)?   Now that I think about it, the "character" of an eldar army will likely be in the troop choice.  Yes, we could put together armies with different choices, but I am doubtful of the success. That's what I meant by predictable.

I have played in too many tourneys to count and nearly  all of the space marine builds fall into the same  cookie cutter templates.  The general will have alot  to do with making an army competitive. Most here would consider dire avengers and fire prisms under current rules to be a point sink in competitive play yet I can capture RTT's and have had great success at GT's as well with them. I have played competitive eldar that did not have a falcon or fire dragons in it. I have captured wins with foot slogging infantry eldar as well as mech eldar. It is really up to you.      This new codex will certianly be competitive.....

Yes--they do look alike paintwise.  But isn't that how armies look in real life?  Variety in paint scheme is not the point--especially if done nicely .

I'm saying that not only do they look the same painwise but buildwise as well.

I suspect that it would take a great deal of time to see the game as a whole. In the meantime, how will a new player feel trying to play something (other that SM's) only to find out that what they put together will take a fair amount of skill to win with (something easily taken for granted) against their most likely opponent, and, if that's not daunting enough, when they finally get it together, the rules change? 

There are many who will tell you that eldar are not a good beginers army. It requires a little more finesse to pull off and they are far less forgiving of mistakes. You need to use the right tool for the job in every situation. Once you do attain the skill to play this army then you will have to endure the cries of your opponents who now see what your army and generalship can do.

Yes, the rules do change. You happened to come in at the back end of our very  long awaited new codex.

In hindsight, I wish I had stayed away from Eldar--I didn't know about the new codex when I started and I certainly didn't expect the negative ramifications that it would bring about for my choices.

Again, I'd like to see a list from you and discuss these "negative ramifications" you speak of.

Lazurus,  I thank you for your comments and insights.  I look forward to seeing some 4th edition eldar army lists posted here. 

No problem. I also look forward to seeing what others will do with this new toy we have.

In the end, I will keep playing, if for no other reason than to have some fun with my son.

That's usually a pretty good reason on it's own isn't it? 

Lazarus.

Posted By bigchris1313 on 10/12/2006 12:27 AM
But will those assaults destroy the tank?  If your opponent sees swooping hawks moving toward an expensive tank, he's going to move it the 6" he can.  There go half your hits.  Even if all 10 guys survive to hit the tank, that's 5 hits.  3.33 glancing and .833 penetrating.  That's not even a 50% chance of destroying the thing.  Maybe you immobilize it and get 1/2 the VPs. 

Actually, that's on average .972 destroyed vehicles, and .833 immobilized results.

65% chance to destroy the tank, 21% chance to immobilize it if you don't destroy it.

I'd like to add to the rumour mill that Farseers aren't 0-1.

Excellent news. 

 

Lazarus.

Posted By bigchris1313 on 10/12/2006 12:27 AM

Posted By Ruleslawyer on 10/11/2006 11:52 PM

Swooping Hawks may re deep strike ( If you read it, Skyleap is an awesome ability)

Really?  Best case scenario:

Turn 1 - advance.

Turn 2 - move into position and assault tank with haywires

Turn 3 - Skyleap

Turn 4 - Deep Strike out of LOS of heavy bolters and ass cannons but also within assault range of a tank

Turn 5 - assault tank with haywires

Turn 6 - grab an objective

But will those assaults destroy the tank?  If your opponent sees swooping hawks moving toward an expensive tank, he's going to move it the 6" he can.  There go half your hits.  Even if all 10 guys survive to hit the tank, that's 5 hits.  3.33 glancing and .833 penetrating.  That's not even a 50% chance of destroying the thing.  Maybe you immobilize it and get 1/2 the VPs.  So realistically you're going to need 2 turns to take down a tank if you haven't softened it up with some long-range firepower.  Even then, you've got to find the tank.  Hawks are mobile, but heavy bolters and asscans will cut them down like rebels charging cemetary ridge.

Having destroyed the first tank, you get to DS.  Fun.  Unlike drop pods, you don't get to A) ignore enemy troops B) ignore impassable terrain or C) get your own guaranteed cover.  Even then, your enemy gets 1 turn to lay the hat on you.  I'd "waste" a Battle Cannon template on you before you even have a chance to do touch the vehicle you're looking for--unlike Termies, who get to unload a pair of asscans the moment they touch down, your hawks get to sit around thumbing the hammers on their lasblasters for a turn while they duck and cover.  I'd "waste" a plasma cannon template on you.  I'd bring my single HB/Asscan speeder into LOS and nail you for 4 hawks.  Remember about those templates: you're not just DSing 5 Termies, but a fat squad of 8 or even 10 hawks.

If you DS with a big group of hawks, you run the risk of hurting yourself on landing, then getting torn up by templates, or whatever else can see you thanks to your random drop location.  You aren't using a VoD with Necrons.  You don't get T4, a 3+, and you wont' be back.

The fact is, a 12" terrain-ignoring move and a D6" fleet move is nothing to scoff at.  At least if you advance without skyleaping you know where you'll end up.

The one thing it might be useful for is skyleaping on turn 5 and grabbing an objective on turn 6, especially if you opted to let your opponent go first.  Of course, if you do roll that 1, you won't be on the table at all.  Ouch.  I think if it's cheap enough, it might be worth it just to get on objectives in the last turn.  But Hawks are expensive as it is, and I think they'll still need to prove themselves competent vehicle killers (moreso than Harlequins, FDs, etc) before they make it into my list.  Once I decide they are worth taking, then I just might take Skyleap.  If it's cheap enough.  And if I feel like Tommy Tuberville.

You are forgetting one very important thing, everytime the hawks DS they get to fire the granade launcher again. Besides how I read Skyleap was that it happens at the end of the turn not in the movement phase ( Could be wrong) plus the reserve roll is teated as the turn it is on not reset to 4+ so by turn 4 your arriving on 2+. Does anyone know if the Autarchs reserve ability means that you cant fail a reserve roll.

A 1 is always a 1.

          When I first looked at the review of the Eldar codex I was a little disappointed, but now I think i cant complain all too much.  So far is seems that the HQ sections looks decent. I orginally thought that the Autrarch couldnt take any exarch weapons just aspect. That wouild make him useless, but GW made a good decesion by letting have exarch weapons. I kinda wish that they had more " Unique" gear though. I was also hoping that the Autrarch's ccw prowess would border that of its dark cousin the Acheron, but I dont think it will. People would probably think that  having a cc monster is an outrage, but I think the Dark eldar lord was a good close combat character, because so many armies have str 6 weapons in mass that could insta kill him. I think I am most disaapointed with the farseer entry though. I was hoping for some new powers and for them to stay T4. T4 imo was huge for a farseer. oh well. I am glad to hear the Avatar is back to being a decent sized demon, and am hoping for a new model of him. 

    As for the elites, I really think that they could have done some better things with some of the aspects. If banshees for instance were allowed to charge out of a transport (or maybe have an exarch ability that let them) that wouild have made them a decent choice and maybe made them a contender for a harlequin spot, but now I think they will be left home. Scorpians have had a slight nerf, only because the exarch is str 6 with his pfist. I am unsure if I will take them either. Firedragons and harlequins are amazing.  No one mentioned Warp spiders though. Did they receive any changes (lower points perhaps?) I am sadden by the viper being toned down and CTM gone. Also more expensive doesnt make much sense. Personally I think they went the wrong way with the starcannon. I have the opinion that many others have that  every army has a "super weapon" (psycannon, Assualt cannon) . I really didnt see much wrong with the starcannon because it was on a bs3 model. I think that the number of starcannons eldar could field needed some restriction (like maybe only wraithlords,falcons, and vipers could have them?) Something like that would make it so the dread 13 starcannon army didnt happen.

 One last thing. Do we know if there is going to be new harlequin models? because the old ones are so ugly.

Posted By skyth on 10/12/2006 6:01 AM

Posted By bigchris1313 on 10/12/2006 12:27 AM
But will those assaults destroy the tank?  If your opponent sees swooping hawks moving toward an expensive tank, he's going to move it the 6" he can.  There go half your hits.  Even if all 10 guys survive to hit the tank, that's 5 hits.  3.33 glancing and .833 penetrating.  That's not even a 50% chance of destroying the thing.  Maybe you immobilize it and get 1/2 the VPs. 

Actually, that's on average .972 destroyed vehicles, and .833 immobilized results.

65% chance to destroy the tank, 21% chance to immobilize it if you don't destroy it.

Right, right.  Don't know where my head was.  Thanks.

well now that gaurdian squads are a minimum size of ten, and the starcannon reduced by 1 shot, I dont think we need fear starcannons anylonger.

I would fear the shuricannon far before that happens. its damned cheap now and a decent weapon for the price.

for almost 100 points, you get one min sized gaurdian squad armed with a single additional wepon. for 120 points you get three warwalkers armed with 6 shuricannons doling out 18 str6 shots a turn.

I know what I am spending my points on for firepower.

Jet bikes wil be the new compulsory choice for small troops choices. Even then you get superior firepower when dealing with shuricannons at a cost that is cheaper.

The range is the killer for the shuricannon WW squad. They?ll buzz through non power-armored stuff, but against Marines you?re looking at 9 hits, 8 wounds, 2-3 dead. And then the bolters can hit you back in addition to plasma and any heavy weapon. Ugh. I think I?ll pay the extra for Scatter Lasers.

Posted By Mannahnin on 10/13/2006 5:28 AM
The range is the killer for the shuricannon WW squad. They’ll buzz through non power-armored stuff, but against Marines you’re looking at 9 hits, 8 wounds, 2-3 dead. And then the bolters can hit you back in addition to plasma and any heavy weapon. Ugh. I think I’ll pay the extra for Scatter Lasers.

While true, the kunnin' Eldar autarch orders  his warwalkers to only close with 2-3 of the enemy marine models in this scenarios, possibly stripping the plasmagun if it's foreward and minimizing counter firer soley to a heavy weapon (and maybe occasionally a bolter or 2 if things go wrong.

I use this type of tactic commonly in my 3rd ed Iyanden Wraithlords. who wield shuriken cannons for cost reduction and AP support for the wraithguard.  Don't want to get hit by those pesky plasma if I don't need to.

I do understand people's love of weapon range though.

wns,

tim

Sure, with a little crafty planning you can "range snipe" stuff but you can also do it with LOS as well. Posisition that lead wraithlord so that he blocks sight to everything but the trooper in question. (for the other lord to shoot)...

 

Lazarus.

Posted By Lazarus on 10/13/2006 10:07 AM

Sure, with a little crafty planning you can "range snipe" stuff but you can also do it with LOS as well. Posisition that lead wraithlord so that he blocks sight to everything but the trooper in question. (for the other lord to shoot)...

 

Lazarus.

additionally true.  That is the major strength of mobile firepower vs. stationary firepower.  Even with onyl a 6" move, the eldar in these situation get to choose the nature of the fight to their greatest advantage.  Only when the terrian is unforgiving are the tables turned.

wns,

Tim

Sooo... a couple quick questions (only scanned through 8 pages, so I'm sorry if this has been answered)...

1) Do jetbike Shur Cannons still cost 20pts?

2) Can Shining Spears get Shur Cannons?

Also, anyone who had a Saim-Hann army (well, with less than 10 Vypers) must be s&%$ing themselves right now.  Saim-Hann was already one of the best armies in the game, but now they can take 3 HS and 3 Elite Choices, while still keeping fundamentally the same army.

I looked back at my last 1500pt Saim-Hann army that went 7-1 in league play a year ago, and now that list would be only 1250pts or less if this post is correct.  PLUS units like Warp Spiders got even better, so my list would have been even MORE absurd.

I know eldar needed a boost, but jetbikes were useful at 35pts, a steal at 30pts, and now just crazy at 22pts.  SS's were ok at 50pts, would have been a steal at 40pts, and now are absurdly cheap at 35pts. 

Well, I must admit though, with all the financial problems GW has been having, encouraging people to buy 15$ jetbikes should help them out a lot.

1) A min sized bike squad with 1 SC costs 76 points...

2) Supposedly the exarch can but I can't confirm this.

Oh, and how much do warlock jetbikes cost? 

25pts base, and jetbikes are +14pts over guardians, so is 39pts or 40pts a good guess now?

Also, can Jetbike characters have Singing Spears?

So, a 3 man squad with cannon...

Was... 125pts
Now... 76pts

Geez!

Rumor is a Warlock on bike is 45 points (witchblade included, curious whether he has a pistol but dunno). Makes sense as base warlock is 25 and character jetbikes cost 20.

Posted By Mannahnin on 10/13/2006 5:28 AM
The range is the killer for the shuricannon WW squad. They’ll buzz through non power-armored stuff, but against Marines you’re looking at 9 hits, 8 wounds, 2-3 dead. And then the bolters can hit you back in addition to plasma and any heavy weapon. Ugh. I think I’ll pay the extra for Scatter Lasers.

I have COD on the brain and always forget to qualify that.

In normal 40K (with its lack of dense terrain), the scatter laser is the king here in this instance. In cod, where range isnt a large matter, I will stick with the cheaper shuricannon.

Though, after alot of playtesting, I am sure I will end up using the scatterlaser even in COD. Normally in the games here its hard to get long ranged LOS as we fairly densely pack the table with terrain. Time will tell there.

When you think about it, the shuricannon is cheap, but the scatter laser is just as cheap when you consider  the range and rate of fire increase.

That's good news about Jetbike Warlocks. If we can get a 66-point 3-man Jetbike squad with a ~48 point Singing Spear Warlock, that's a rather threatening and rather cheap unit. If Destructor's ~15 or so, that's a total cost of about 130 points for a very versatile unit (or 150 for four Jetbikes). With five models, you've got a free casualty before you have to start testing, and you have to lose all but two to become nonscoring. The total cost is about 60 points less than what I was spending on mounted Flamer squads in a Bright Lance Serpent and has comparable firepower and durability. A first-turn turboboost ups their survivability and positions them to either hurl a Spear or flame and shoot up an infantry squad. As well, all of those points are scoring.

Edit: To be a bit more explicit, the Jetbike squad has a 12" Lascannon and a heavy flamer, with the equivalent of 12 BS3 Shuriken Pistol shots, whereas my mounted unit had a Bright Lance, a heavy flamer and two normal flamers, and the equivalent of 6 BS3 Pistol shots.  The Jetbike squad has to suffer three Marine-profile casualties (sometimes with invulnerable saves) before it becomes nonscoring, and it can go all the way down to just the Warlock while still operating at almost full offensive capability.  Killing those first three from range is going to be about as hard as knocking down a Serpent (assuming S8 weaponry), and the Bikes aren't really all that vulnerable to Drop Pods and the like when they turboboost.  They go down more easily to small arms, but it shouldn't be that difficult, with an 18+" move, to play keepaway.  They've got a S9 shot from 24" away at the start of the turn and can end the turn 18" away from the target.  They can bring a heavy flamer to bear from 20".  Plus, they ignore terrain while doing all of this.  I see them as being a short-ranged, faster, and punchier version of Crisis Suits.  Stealth Suits with Fusion Guns are probably pretty similar, and a squad of 4 of those with one Fusion Gun runs slightly over 120 points for something that's much slower, has no ability in assault, and that can't pick up an invulnerable save.

With Spears, I'm thinking about taking a squad of four or five and deploying a Farseer among them. On my first turn, they'll get Fortuned and will turboboost forward while the Farseer does a normal move, Mind Wars a heavy weapon, and uses his assault move to get up to the Spears, relying on his IC status and shield of invulnerable Spears. On the next turn, they'll join together, get Fortuned again, move forward, Mind War, and charge. The enemy's going to be hard-pressed to stop the Spears (27 Bolter shots are needed to kill one, or 54 Lasgun shots) and I get all the benefits of turboboosting for the Farseer while still being able to use Mind War (or some other second power of my choice).

I've heard that the Farseer's bodyguard of warlocks is a seperate unit from the Farseer himself.

how useful would a falcon with 6 heavy flamers be? Expenisve though.

More than a few flame templates in one squad is almost always a waste.  One or two heavy flamer template should be enough to wipe out almost any squad with a 4+ save or worse.  Two to Four is usually enough for even marine squads (note: they likely won't wipe out the marines, but it's a waste of 15pts to add that next flamer because it'll likely only hit 1 marine.  It'd be much more useful to give the 4th or 5th warlock Enhance or embolden... or, just have a smaller squad).

So... Farseers are 55pts... Locks are 25pts...

How's this for a squad...

Farseer w/ Singing Spear (any power works)
2 Warlocks w/ Spears and destructor

Bout 165pts for 3 models, but it's a great anti-infantry and anti-tank squad if you're missing some punch at either role.  Put them in a Falcon and you're good to go!

Seems to me everyone is passing on the most important upgrade for Farseers and Warlocks...they all now have power weapons! Instead of relying on a slow Avatar for wounds to win combat, The Seer Council..though small is actaully quite lethal and does not need too much back up once Fortune-ed and enhanced. None of there saves are 3+ so they will be fleeting-getting there, making there delivery much more flexable than it seems people are making them out to be.

Even without jet bikes this is a terribly good HQ. and capable of winning combats instead of supporting/tar-piting the enemy. Detach a seer with some Harlies and you have 2x Rock hard units barreling at you... both fleet one reroling inv both hitting very hard and the other rending w/ lots of attacks.

I dont know why soo many peopel are worried about Eldar shooting...yes it seems like it is slightly weaker (less 'cheesey/boring) but the Army's HQ/CC elements are soo much deeper and lethal. CC still rules the day in 40k. There jsut seems like there is so much you can force your opponent to do by turn 2 that Eldar will be top tier. Im intrigued to see what expereinced Eldar generals are going to be able to do with just a little cover and all these upgraded units.

Once players stop trying to cram HVY weapons into there lists and up there body counts for some of these units, synergizing and adding longevity, Eldar will have a much better chance to win deeper into the games rather than having to try to pound it out with star cannons and gimmicky craft word special abilities.

Heck the only bad choice in the list seems to be the Wraithguard and Viper...and fearless T6 Wraithguard could be a good flank protector, forcing $$$ vehicles to check up and hard units to be bogged down allowing Wraithlords and other Aspects time to wheel or clear out...yes they are both viulnerable to heavy weapons but what isnt...

Just my $.02

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Brother CPT Ginn </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Seems to me everyone is passing on the most important upgrade for Farseers and Warlocks...they all now have power weapons!

That's news to me....last I heard they come standard with witchblades and as far as I know they do not have access to them.....could someone confirm this?

Lazarus.

Yeah, I have to say I've not heard anyone say Farseers and Warlocks have access to powerweapons. Any help on this would be appreciated.

My sources tell me no power weapons for the farseers / warlocks.

Jeez, I wish I had the codex right now ....

Lazarus.

Hope I didnt stir things up too much...I read over in the earlier Warseer Brimstone posts, though it was a while ago, that wychblades were also going the way of the power weapon. I havent seen anything recently, though I figured this was because people were intrigued about Sspears and HVY weapons.

I dont really care Ill just be adding a cheap Autarach to the small seer council if they dont have Pweapons.

I just have one question. Lately I have been reading other forums such as warseer and Librarium-online.com, and most of the rumors dakka has pointed out are spot on with them, except one. According to the other forums Autrarch's cannot have exarch weaponary. The review on this forum says they can. Do we know the real anwser to this? Personally I think if the Autrarch cant have exarch weapon he is nearly useless. Since my guess is he will be around 55pt to 70 points at the most. We'd have a character with a very similar statline to a farseer, possibly with one more WS, BS, and Init. Ok so effectively we have a character that well move quickly and die just a quick. This is because nearly every army out there have str 6 weapons in Close combat ( Greyknights, Sisters, Marines (pfist), Chaos, imp guard, ect.) He only have has a 4+ save and I know many people are saying well just fortune him, but I am sorry Fortune isnt the answer to everything, the farseer cant be everywhere on the battlefield something needs to stand alone and not have to be baby sat. To be honest I was really hoping for something just as powerful as a Dark Eldar Archeon, but instead we get a leader that has basic weaponary. I mean honestly what will you spend ur points on with this guy? Scorpian helm, Banshee Pweapon, Shuriken pistol and thats it? (oh and as a bouns you get strat rating 4 with + 1 to reserve rolls!) I am giddy with anticipation (/sarcasm). I mean do you guys really believe that this will be worth the points to field? Wouldnt you rather have an Autrarch with a +2 inv save (make it none rerollable by anymeans) and something like a punisher or maybe a excutioner from the banshee exarch shine?

To be totally honest I am really upset at the entire codex. Vipers went up in points, Because of new rules we cant screen Dark reapers, so they arent so good even with a 3+ save. Banshee's wont be seen much because they cant get out and assualt anymore, Scorpians are in the same boat because harlequins will be the premier eldar CC specialist unit. We have a much weaker starcannon now, its no where near as good and its point cost stayed the same? I mean Tau plasma technology is easily the equilvant to eldars now. Which it definitely shouldnt be that way! Eldar use to be the master of plasma, and tau can atleast have a bs 4 person shooting there nice weapons. It feels like space marines totally highjacked the eldar codex and whined enough to get everything they wanted. I really truely believe this codex falls short.

I know many of you guys will say well, you cant compare one army to another and most compare the army in context to itself. I honestly dont understand people that say that. Because rarely does ur army ever face itself. Maybe we're not marines with bs4 or Toughness 4 or neat little 3+ saves but to compensate for that we have to have something. Massive firepower that can melt away that armor. I know alot of eldar players here at home that are reading these forums and are just litterally disgusted. Eldar armys will change in another direction and we are going to see little variation in lists just like last time.

Hq's
Once people start to notice the Autrarch is a joke he wont be taken
So we will see Farseers (with the great T of 3 which stinks not only because perils of the warp but because they arent as effective in combat now many things in the 40k universe will slaughter them)
But they will still probably be taken because of their powers
Might see an avatar every now and then
Though I have heard some nice things about Prince Yriel if they are true I suspect he will be the new mainstay Eldar Hq (along with a farseer of course!)

Elites

Every list will have ATLEAST one squard of harlequins
and ATLEAST another of fire dragons (u'd be foolish not too)
Banshees and Scorpians will be neglected (shame they have good models now)

Troops

We are going to see dire avengers
10 man Guardian squads with with either Missile lauchers, Scatter lasers, or Brightlances
3 man jetbikes with a warlock and 1 shuricannon
possibly Pathfinders too (depending if they did anything with the points) (though I would definitley field a squad)

Fast attack

Vipers are gone! Out of the picture, Marine landspeeders and tau piranha's are superior (imo and many others)
Warpspiders are interesting, but will probably see the same amount of play as they use too (which isnt much)
We will probably see 1 swooping hawk unit in many lists.
Many people will probably try out shinning spears but still debatable weather they are worth fielding

Hvy support

Falcons are still amazing and will see atleast 1 in every list
Fire prisms are nice and will probably see 1 or 2 in most lists
Wraithlord is just sad, having a points increase and getting wraith sight hurts to much, Now we need a lock to baby sit furhter uping his points. Which is just great. GG marine whinies
Dark Reapers wont see much action between prisms and falcons, and they no longer get screened by other troops thanks to new rule book
Warwalkers will see some action but not much again because prims and falcons are better


In total the list is the same pretty much, they nerfed somethings that didnt need it, (personally I think starcannons should have had a limited number of units that can take them and be the same as now), Striking Scorps needed to stay str4 because now that pfist isnt worth it anymore and the farseers toughness going down a notch are among the most annoying issues.

For the record, star cannons are far from nerfed. Star cannons were once 50 points where as now they are 25. If they kill one termie or two space marines, they have more than made up for the points paid for a starcannon. It has one reduced shot and is far cheaper now. Boohoo. The scatter laser is indeed a better buy for firepower, but it does not gaurantee armor penetration of highly armored infantry. For the points, it is still a very superior weapon.

The rearrangement in stats is indeed a odd thing, but in keeping with eldar frailty, it makes sense if for nothing else but fluff. There are many ways to divert their frailty. By keeping the superior amount of firepower.

Sorry your not happy, but maybe you should play with them first before poopooing it entriely? Of course you will, you play eldar.

Hellfury, I was under the impression that the starcannon weapons platform runs 50 pts, including the 2 crewmen. No pts change. Stats decrease by 33%. Unless they somehow run 25 pts each as you assert.

Wraithlord: Down to 30 pts, but wraithlord up to 90 pts, bringing it to no pts change. Stats decrease by 33%.

Falcon: Down to 35 pts, but Holofield up to 35 pts. Spirit Stones constant, while Falcon 5 pts less. -5 pts net pts change for Starcannon + Holofield + Spirit Stones Falcon. Falcon shootability reduced by someone number incalculable while I am drunk. Starcannon stats decrease by 33%.

I don't know, Hellfury. Sure as hell looks bad overall unless Starcannons somehow drop by 25 pts (which you alone appear to have heard is happening).

Unless the rumours I read were wrong, the starcannon is now 25 points.

You look me in the eye with a straight face and tell me the wraithlord wasnt undercosted in the first place. Stats on the wraithlord stay the same.

I am not the only one to have read this, in fact, if this bit hasnt been deleted in the thread yet, here is the link.

www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/6/tpage/40/view/Topic/postid/93653/Default.aspx

The above is all I could find, but I have saved what was on page 19 of this thread before it got deleted.

Shuriken Cannon:         as it is now but       A3          5pts
Scatter Laser:                as it is now but       H4        15pts
Eldar Missile Launcher:  Same stat line as it is         20pts
Bright Lance:                as it is now                           30pts
Starcannon:                   as it is now but       H2         25pts
Pulse Laser:                  as it is now but       H2
Fire Prism:                   As in its Vehicle description

Dont know how accurate it is, as this is what lazarus posted. I am just going by what I read.

The WL was undercosted in 3rd ed? Yep.

But 4th? I think it was right on target, at least once the 4th ed marine dex arrived with the asscan.

As far as weapon platforms, I think those were particularly for vehicles, as opposed to guardian squads. Specifically for vehciles. Not guardian squads. But it's been quite some time---and I'm drunk. But in vino veritas, damnit! I swear to God I remember it correctly.  I swear: vehicles are 25 pts, but squads are something around 50.  Really.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Hellfury </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Dont know how accurate it is, as this is what lazarus posted. I am just going by what I read

Tamashi's roundup has proved pretty accurate. Perhaps someone with access to a dex can confirm some of this....I was pondering my current mech list.....

I recently had someone price my new falcon build with a scatter laser, shuriken cannon upgrade, holo field, stones and vectored engines....I believe it came to 205 which is just slightly less than my current 210 w/ the star cannon. Sure, I lose the star cannon but I'll make up that firepower elsewhere in the list and I gain a more survivable tank with a guaranteed 9 shots per turn. My spirit stones never shook ofmuch damage so they don't seem like that much of a nerf to me and on the few times they did my tank would miss. The sheer strength of my list is the resilience and it just got better at that. I look forward to mounting star engines on the falcons so I can grab objectives from 36" away.....that's just amazing and will make my tank only cost a total of 15 points more than it did in the last codex (225)

Star cannon & brightlance vypers went up in price which will effectively remove them from most people's lists....however, I'm curious to know how much a vyper with scatter laser & shuriken cannon upgrade is? It used to cost 75 in our current dex and was awesome for popping light vehicles and such...perhaps it will be cheaper and still have a place with 7 str 6 shots....

Jetbikes as troops leads to lots of options for me. Keeps nicely with the mech theme and adds even more speed to the list.  I think I can coax some tank busting out of these guys and capturing objectives will be a breeze.

I'll likely keep my prism in the list as it simply gets better....no other way to look at it. I also no longer need a seer to babysit that thing so more points are either saved or resources are shifted to where needed. The dispersed shot gives me a nice little boost against light infantry giving the tank some much needed versatility. I'll likely add the cannon upgrade as they are so cheap now. Nice to have a backup weapon and it's that much more of VP denial...

I'll likely be removing my scorps & seer in the serpent due to changes in the new codex as well as the FAQ nerfing powers in transports. Harlequins will now be the default choice. Banshees (already using) will be even better with the addition of doom. I only wish I could justify using an avatar in this list (lol)

Autarch is still going to be a tough choice for me. I really want him for the +1 reserves as I play escalation at least once in every tourney but a second doom seer looks awesome as well. Haven't given the phoenix lords much thought as they seem awfully expensive to field.

I was already  using avengers and they got even better. Problem is I think I'll be better off with jetbikes overall in the list....I'll have to do some playtesting with this though before I decide for sure.

I'm curious to know who will be using hawks? I love the idea of haywire grenades and their ability to deliver them to target with a good threat range is appealing.....however, they are soo fragile I'd be scared of artilllery ending them before I got to use them. My scorps took out a demolisher on saturdays ironman tourney with haywire greandes (I'll miss that)

Overall, I think that my mech list gets stronger and much more survivable as well as faster. Whats' not to like? It won't look exactly the same as before but that's not always a bad thing either.  

Lazarus.

 

 

Agreed, Chris, about the Wraithlord. He just wasn't all that in 4th. Heck, he really stopped being a problem once the trial assault rules came out and every squad with a powerfist trumped him.

I'm interested in seeing about the guardian playforms. The old StC was 50pts including 2 crew. So functionally 34 for just the gun.

Of course, you also have to look at the practical cost of fielding one. Even if it's only 25 pts now, with a minimum squad size of 10, you're looking at a minimum cost of 125 to get an infantry StC which shoots less than it used to, and is still BS3. The old minimum was 90pts (I liked my small squads 9 strong, totaling 106). I used to field maybe three squads with Starcannons for around 300pts. Now it's going to be closer to 400 and put out six shots instead of nine. Any way you slice it, that's a big hit. I could see one change or the other, certainly, but both seems a lttle odd.

I think the codex is certainly going to be playable, but the I'm not sure some of the changes really make sense.

Maybe I'm missing some points:

10 Guardians 80 points
Starcannon 25 points
Total 105

Also of note: The crew (from rumors poste) are taken from Guardians, not an addition so it can be 10 total Guardians with the Starcannon. So, if you are looking at 34 points for the Starcannon, and it is now 25, it seems just barely overpriced. NOTE: Assuming all the rumors are true.

315 points for 30 Guardians and 3 Starcannons; don't know how viable it will still be, but something to consider. Also of note, it appears we can get Waveserpents and put all the Guardians in. That can be a lot of concentrated fire and mobile fire to boot.

Personally, I'm not sure how many Starcannons I'm going to take anyways. With a Scatterlaser putting out 4 shots, it may be the way to just saturate your target unit and force torrent of fire saves among all the other saves. It's going to be interesting playing the new Codex.

The one thing I can't understand is the increased points for Vypers w/ Starcannons and Brightlances. The one thing that made them really ugly was the CTM, but now it is no longer. Why then the expensive Vypers?

US WD322 had some interesting points costs in the Eldar Battle Report:

12 Guardians with Star Cannon = 121 points

2 War Walkers with 2 Star Cannons Each = 160 points

Wraithlord with Brightlance = 130 points

Vyper with S. Cannon = 50 points



Take with that what you will. It looks like a Vyper with Scatter lazer and S. Cannon will be around 60-70 points, not bad if you ask me.

"For the record, star cannons are far from nerfed. Star cannons were once 50 points where as now they are 25."

Maybe if they cost 25 and still came with the two extra wounds... uhh... I mean crew, for the squad, then maybe. All that price reduction did was remove two Guardians and some change.

BYE

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Mahu </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

US WD322 had some interesting points costs in the Eldar Battle Report:

12 Guardians with Star Cannon = 121 points

2 War Walkers with 2 Star Cannons Each = 160 points

Wraithlord with Brightlance = 130 points

Vyper with S. Cannon = 50 points

The wraithlord seems pretty cheap as it is only 10 points more than before. I was lead to understand it was a more substantial price hike....perhaps wraithsight is part of that "hike"...

The guardian cost is nearly  the same as current but now you get one less shot on the cannon. 9 points cheaper for one less shot...hmmm, does anyone know if you can still arm your weapon crew with close combat weapons & pistols? I always liked to do that as you really only lost a single str4 shoit when shooting but gained a couple of close combat attacks....

Take with that what you will. It looks like a Vyper with Scatter lazer and S. Cannon will be around 60-70 points, not bad if you ask me.

Currently they are 75 for that setup and a decent deal. cheaper would certianly make them viable in this new codex. Luckily I already have 3 of them set up that way in my standard mech list.

Lazarus.

Posted By bigchris1313 on 10/17/2006 12:41 AM
The WL was undercosted in 3rd ed? Yep.

But 4th? I think it was right on target, at least once the 4th ed marine dex arrived with the asscan.

As far as weapon platforms, I think those were particularly for vehicles, as opposed to guardian squads. Specifically for vehciles. Not guardian squads. But it's been quite some time---and I'm drunk. But in vino veritas, damnit! I swear to God I remember it correctly.  I swear: vehicles are 25 pts, but squads are something around 50.  Really.

You could very well be right about the squad upgrade cost. I dont ever recall seeing anything other than the prices I listed, and that was from 4 different sources (here, warseer, librarium, dysartes) but then again, the sources might be the same person too.

And I do agree fully that 4th ed wraithlords, with the price they paid for the wepons they had was far better than what was around for 3rd. Lets do some math now that youve sobered up a bit.

3rd ed wraithlord with starcannon was: 120 pts.

The 4th ed rumoured wraithlord with same build (first price is therions rumours, second price is lazarus' rumours)
120 pts /115pts. (but the price is increased with the need of a warlock or even more expensive spiritseer babysitter, which makes sense technically, but it just makes it cost more overall) but you also now have the option of purchasing two weapons (though I would not recommend the same wepon as twin linking is simply over costed across the board for all codices)

I think that price increase for this edition was just to keep the MEq players from flooding GW with whining complaints to be honest.

Over all, considering how units support each other in the list in 4th ed, I would say that the wraithlord has slightly increased in cost as opposed to effectiveness.

I still reserve the right to eat major crow, as this is all based on rumours. I am not defending them, just pointing out that poopooing this stuff is pointless until we have a codex in our paws and play some games with them.

I'm surprized people are complaining about a Str 6 AP2 Heavy 2 Gun.

At 25 Points, it's quite worth it, besides can't you make a Falcon or some of the firing platforms effectively BS4?

Even if it competes with a 4 Shot Str 6 gun with negligable AP, when fired by a BS3 model the Starcannon will win out against MEQ's every time. Having a large number of high strength shots with little to no AP isn't going to help against things with 2+ saves, and it's not like you don't see a lot of Terminators or Big Nids with 2+ saves running around.

I guess what I'm trying to say is why wouldn't you take the starcannon, even if it was only 2 shots now?

VoodooBoyz: I believe that the majority of the information points to BS4 being available only for prisms, which makes any benefit of BS4 moot.

Things are best shown on a "shots per point" basis since BS doesn't enter into things.

Based on old points vs new points for -min- starcannon (minimum squad size vs body parity due to maximization of returns...) the new guardian starcannon platform is actually 42.85% worse than the old one on a points / shot basis.

Based on the new starcannon vyper rumoured to be 70 points, the new vyper is 38% less effective on a points / shot basis.

Based on Therion's rumourset, the Wraithlord is effectively 33.3% worse on a points / shot basis (the intangible being that it needs a baby-sitter to be 100% effective, otherwise there is a hidden factor which bumps it up to 40% worse.)

Based on the new starcannon warwalker rumoured to be 80 points, (and from memory of the old one costing 120 points...) the new warwalker has the -same- points / shot ratio as the old one. Fancy that!!!

So I think it is quite obvious where GW is forci... ahem... encouraging us to go in terms of gameplay.

Versus MEQ's:

Star Cannon
2 Shots, 1 Hit (50%), .83 AP2 Wounds (83%)

S. Cannon
3 Shots, 1.5 Hit (50%), 1.25 Wounds (83%), .41 Failed Saves (33%)

Scatter Laser
4 Shots, 2 Hit (50%), 1.66 Wounds (83%), .55 Failed Saves (33%)



The old Star Cannon killed 1.245 versus the news .83, however the Star Cannon is still the best MEQ killer on a gun per gun baises, but considering you can get the same kill ratio on two S. Cannons for slightly less points is the reason you won't see very many Star Cannons in 4th Edition Eldar. The best bet for the Star Cannon is War Walkers (max shots in one unit) and Wave Serpents (twin-linked), 160 points on the two War Walkers you get 3.32 MEQ kills a turn before Doom and Guide.

Well yes obviously the previous Starcannon platforms are going to go down in effectiveness per points cost, but I dare you to look at me with a straight face and tell me that the gun wasn't hyper effective for the points before that? I mean people designed GT winning armies using that as the primary infantry gun with a few Lances scattered around for anti-tank.

I don't mean to pick on Eldar players, I'd say the exact same thing to Marine players (me being one of them) complaining if/when GW nerfs the assault cannon to 3 shots or takes away rending. It's something that needed nerfing.

Honestly you can throw starcannons on BS4 models (wraithlord should still be BS4) or on resilient ones (Falcons, skimmers in general) and use the Scatter laser on cheaper more disposable things to thin out hoards.

And honestly you can't tell me that you're not going to use the gun a whole lot, what are you more likely to run into a hoard of Gaunts or Orks or a bunch of 2+ Save Terminators or a Flyrant with Warp Field?

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Voodoo Boyz </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

but I dare you to look at me with a straight face and tell me that the gun wasn't hyper effective for the points before that? I mean people designed GT winning armies using that as the primary infantry gun with a few Lances scattered around for anti-tank.

Something to consider: If the entire galaxy didn't walk around in power armour we might see more diversity in the lists. Approximatly 75% of all my opponents in tourney play are MEQ's and with this in mind it would be foolish for me not to prepare for them in some fashion.

I don't mean to pick on Eldar players, I'd say the exact same thing to Marine players (me being one of them) complaining if/when GW nerfs the assault cannon to 3 shots or takes away rending. It's something that needed nerfing.

If it was being nerfed strictly for game balance I'd be completely cool with it. Since most acknowledge that the assault cannon could use the same attention now they should release a FAQ changing it in the name of balance and fair play....instead it's simply marketing and we'll endure years more abuse (lol).

Honestly you can throw starcannons on BS4 models (wraithlord should still be BS4) or on resilient ones (Falcons, skimmers in general) and use the Scatter laser on cheaper more disposable things to thin out hoards.

I do utilize scatter lasers on vypers...the problem is that you will not survive long to try and thin out any hordes (lol). Especially now that the CTM is gone. At my last GT I faced 5 straight MEQ lists and I certianly wished at times that I had more than the 2 star cannons that I was using that day. (lol)

Lazarus.

I'm still looking at the fact that I can put the weapon platforms inside Wave Serpents. It will now be easier to throw in the Shuriken Catapult fire as well as the weapon platform, and you still have the Wave Serpent yet to fire.

People scoff at Guardians in Wave Serpents and tend to ignore them in favor of shooting the Eldar gunboats (Falcon). I've had pretty good success with Guardians and Warlock w/ Destructor lighting up a unit. Now add in the weapons platform.

For myself, that's worth the 'nerfing' of the Starcannon.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/17/2006 1:11 PM
I'm surprized people are complaining about a Str 6 AP2 Heavy 2 Gun.

At 25 Points, it's quite worth it, besides can't you make a Falcon or some of the firing platforms effectively BS4?

Even if it competes with a 4 Shot Str 6 gun with negligable AP, when fired by a BS3 model the Starcannon will win out against MEQ's every time. Having a large number of high strength shots with little to no AP isn't going to help against things with 2+ saves, and it's not like you don't see a lot of Terminators or Big Nids with 2+ saves running around.

I guess what I'm trying to say is why wouldn't you take the starcannon, even if it was only 2 shots now?

To be honest, as a deathwing player I would much rather go up against a eldar army who uses nothing but starcannons. I still get an invulnerable save.

I fear taking armor saves. Thats why I hate IG. Yeah, they use flashlights, but they still wound and cause me to take the bucket of dice out and roll umpteen million saves.

I fear the scatterlaser far more than the starcannon, as it has the same strength, but pours out twice the amount of firepower. At the eldar's BS of 3, I think it much more likely to take out termies through scatterlasers.

Put starcannons on a bs4 vehicle, and all bets are off.

Yes, but the Starcannon has literally double the chances of killing a Terminator (T4, 2+/5+) of the Scatterlaser, reguardless of the BS of the model firing it.

BS3 Model
Scatter Laser - 27% Chance of Killing a Terminator
Star Cannon - 55% Chance of Killing a Terminator

BS4 Model
Scatter Laser - 37% Chance of killing a Terminator
Star Cannon - 74% Chance of killing a Terminator

If the eldar takes enough guns (and they will take lots and lots of Starcannons, in my estimation of the guns available), you'll still have to roll a lot of saves and it'll be 5+ saves, not 2+. And I'd much rather take a 2+ Save than a 5+ save any day of the week.

Oddly enough things really start to get interesting when fighting Power Armored MEQ's, the Star Cannon is 1.5 Times more effective than the Scatter Laser at killing MEQ's:

BS3 Model
Scatter Laser - 55% Chance of killing an MEQ
Star Cannon - 83% Chance of killing an MEQ

BS4 Model
Scatter Laser - 74% Chance of killing an MEQ
Star Cannon - 111% Chance of killing an MEQ

Now the only real downside of the Star Cannon vs the Scatter Laser is that for MEQ's in 5+ Cover they are equal.

I'm sure I can hear the cries of how terrible this is for the Star Cannon, but looking at the tournament tables and from my own experience it's near impossible to have all your line squads of MEQ's huddled in 5+ cover as there's never enough in your deployment zone to use all of.

I still predict that the Star Cannon will be used quite a bit in the new dex. It's a Strength 6 AP2 Gun with two shots, it's still very very good. Besides it's supposed to be the Eldar Plasma Cannon and the Plasma Cannon took a nerf in 4th ed so now it's the Eldars turn. :p

The underlying problem the starcannon now faces is where it fits within the Eldar list as a whole. In theory the eldar heavy weapons break down like this:

starcannon: MEQ killer
scatter laser: horde killer
bright lance: vehicle killer
missile launcher: multipurpose

The problem in 3rd edition was that the starcannon, with it's large number of shots, also functioned as a good weapon against hordes while still being perfect against MEQs. This led to people running heavy starcannon lists that would give a MEQ army fits while also taking out the harder elements of most hordes. This complimented with aspect warriors (scorpions and banshees) that were perfectly suited for mopping up leftover elements of hordes.

The problem in 4th edition is that there are already very good anti MEQ units available. Most have acknowledged that the fire dragons, harlequins, and falcons will be the strongest units in the Eldar codex. All of these are well suited to taking out MEQs. The scatter laser, while not as good against MEQs in the open as starcannons, still does a descent job against them while being perfectly suited for taking out hordes. All of this for 15 pts less. Why am I going to pay 105 pts. for 10 guardians to babysit a 2 shot MEQ weapon when I already have all the anti MEQ taken care of?

Essentially the starcannon has the problem of being a decent weapon but not being able to compete with the other options that are suited for the same purpose. I won't be surprised if the scatter laser becomes the HW choice of the Eldar with falcons, fire dragons, and harlequins (with the kiss of course) being used as the focused anti MEQ elements of the list.

VoodooBoyz:

It is common knowledge that:

Eldar are deficient in small arms that fire R24"-R12" - the only option being the lasblaster

Other than the WL, HS Tanks, Avatar (arguablY) and Fortuned Seer HQ, the Eldar lack reslience.

What does this mean for an Eldar general?

If using fragile units, strike first and strike hard because you can't win a war of attrition. Use numbers and redundancy due to low LD and toughness. Hide behind terrain when possible.  It also means that to cover the area outside of 12", you HAVE to use heavy weapons.

- The starcannon adjustment means that the mainstays of this list, the guardian / vyper starcannon units are 30-40% less effective due to fewer numbers. The Vypers can no longer hide without CTM. Aspect Warriors are usually eschewed in this style of list due to the massive hit in number of bodies their higher cost and required transport entails. This also hurts the number of scoring units, which needs to be huge, since Eldar die so easily. Any starcannon firepower from these lists will have to shift to warwalkers which in the past offered the -worst- points / shot / game ratio due to the fact that they usually die instantly after their first volley. This will probably not change much since hull down is gone.

2. The tank heavy "tough" lists aren't affected by ths change at all since they are starcannon light.

3. The mounted aspect warrior army, while it took a huge hit due to V4 waveserpent, doesn't use many starcannons either.

The Plasma Cannon... that OFT used weapon in V3 took a nerf so its fair turnaround? Let's look at the re-balance of the new Eldar dex shall we?

Eldar V4 nerfs:

Skimmers - No LOS blockage, 3/4 casualties upon crashing, can't assault after mobile-deploy, Waverserpents can't score

Wraithlord - points +, wraithsight

Scorpions - Strength reduction

Starcannon - Shot rate reduction

Eldar V4 non-fixes: - or, these sucked already, let's see what's changed...

Rangers - Pinning is a joke. Rangers are not taken outside of Alatioc for the reason that they are supremely points-ineffective. Buying pathfinders is doubly stupid since that particular unit took a hit.

Howling Banshees - since the WS nerf, these ladies weren't all that useful. With harlequins on the horizon, they're damn near useless

Swooping Hawks - skyleap is laughable as instead of a force multiplier for a weak unit, it is a force reductor since you must voluntarily sacrifice a turn to redeploy - with the chance that they will not return due to a botched reserves roll. The vehicle attacking rule is interesting but taken alone, hardly a compelling reason to take hawks.

Wraithguard - Still too expensive, too slow and too few attacks.

Warwalkers - Scout and cheaper cost for a unit that is easily swiss-cheesed by just about every heavy weapon in the game after their first salvo. Scatterlasers and Starcannons can't scratch-up enemy armor and kill a laughable number of MEQs even in a full squad due to BS3.

Support Platforms - Were largely laughable in V3 and are still terrible due to few easily killed crew, low range on the d-cannon, lack of power on the shadow-weaver, and the super-expensive-kill-your-own-boys effect of the vibrocannon.

Eldar Boosts:

Avatar - Tougher and Ld boost

Farseer - Toughness reduction, new wargear, new powers - I put this guy under improved, but I think he stayed largely the same. Everyone's making a big deal out of doom, but rerolling wounds isn't as useful as everyone makes out. It works best on weapons with high ROF and around S4. Go to S3 or S6, and the effectiveness drops like crazy. It still doesn't take into account that power armor immediatly removes 2/3 of the rerolled wounds... so on say, doom'ed bladestorming avengers, instead of 3.3 unsaved wounds caused, it will cause 5... which, frankly, is pathetic considering how much points a unit of bladestorming avengers, their taxi, and accompanying farseer costs (300+ points). The Librarian screwing wargear is not so much a boost, but a fix to repair the overpowering effect Librarians currently have against Farseers.

Autarch - Jury is out on this guy - +1 to reserves is nifty, but I'm not sure this outweighs the benefits of a second farseer.

Dire Avengers - Jury is still out on these. I think they should go in the non-fixes, but many people think they'll be good.

Guardian Jetbikes - Points break

Shining Spears - Points break

Warp Spiders - These were pretty decent in V4 already.

Firedragons - These were awesome already, now they are just stupid.

Harlequins - GW: Let's make these GOD so that everyone will pay $200 to get 3 squads!

Falcon - See Firedragons

Fireprism - A needed boost to make the unit more competitive.

Dark Reapers - 3+sv. They should have had this already since they were specifically prohibited from using fleet in V3 despite having crap armour.

Conclusion:

Ok. So the stuff that hurt MEQs took a hit, other than the Starcannon, the stuff that was really good is still really good (or possibly godlike). HTH outside Harlequins and Spears is a joke... The stuff that really sucked continues to really suck. The stuff that was WAY overpriced is now more reasonable... Yes. I guess I must bow to your superior wisdom, since the Eldar really deserved a nerf, since the Plasma cannon took a hit.

The bit of the Starcannon taking a nerf (not the whole eldar army) because the Plasma Cannon took a hit was a bit of a joke, hence the at the end of the statement. I mean really now.

Second of all, I'm amazed you could sit there and tell me that the Eldar didn't need a nerf. They competed with Iron Warriors for # of UKGT wins and had some of the most broken armies in the game. The starcannon army of doom was just as bad if not worse than the assault cannon army of doom that Marines can now field, I fully expect that to be nerfed sometime in the future as well.

Also, take a look at your list of nerfs, non fixes, and then look at your buffs, and see which one has more units in it. Also I'm surprized you put skimmers down as a nerf, skimmers don't block LOS anymore but they became incredibly survivable now compared to any other tank in the game.

The fact remains that you have a S6 AP2 2 Shot Gun and it's awesome. I'm sure IG would kill for something like that.

VoodooBoyz:

Its funny you'd use Guard as an example, since I'm sure any Guard player would willing trade heavy weapons options (none of which shoot more than 36 other than the EML) with the Eldar in exchange for no-special weapons options, no equipment options, range 12 guns, more expensive basic troopers, no reduced squad options, and no troop affecting doctrines. 

Funny you'd use Guard as an example, because Eldar players would kill to have a lascannon option, since S8 to AV12 reduction is worse vs all the common armor types compared to unmodified S9.

The tourny winning Eldar armies were either falcon heavy - NO NERFS THERE. or the Seer's Council army which is superceeded by the new codex without any stat changes whatsoever... so I guess major unit changes was needed to curtail these two army types... but wait, they didn't really.

You're totally right about the assault cannon army being reduced in power by GW...  in about 10 years.

Sure, the heavy support skimmers are very tough.  Yup.  They're awesome.  That's why I put the Falcon and Fireprism in the "eldar boosts" section.  The Waveserpent is significantly less tough.  And of course, the basic skimmer univeral rule is no-way-shape-or-form reduced in power from V3.  I must be loosing my mind! 

Posted By keezus on 10/18/2006 6:48 AM

VoodooBoyz:

Its funny you'd use Guard as an example, since I'm sure any Guard player would willing trade heavy weapons options (none of which shoot more than 36 other than the EML) with the Eldar in exchange for no-special weapons options, no equipment options, range 12 guns, more expensive basic troopers, no reduced squad options, and no troop affecting doctrines. 

Funny you'd use Guard as an example, because Eldar players would kill to have a lascannon option, since S8 to AV12 reduction is worse vs all the common armor types compared to unmodified S9.

The tourny winning Eldar armies were either falcon heavy - NO NERFS THERE. or the Seer's Council army which is superceeded by the new codex without any stat changes whatsoever... so I guess major unit changes was needed to curtail these two army types... but wait, they didn't really.

You're totally right about the assault cannon army being reduced in power by GW...  in about 10 years.

Sure, the heavy support skimmers are very tough.  Yup.  They're awesome.  That's why I put the Falcon and Fireprism in the "eldar boosts" section.  The Waveserpent is significantly less tough.  And of course, the basic skimmer univeral rule is no-way-shape-or-form reduced in power from V3.  I must be loosing my mind! 

You're not losing your mind, I just wasn't remembering things right.

Still an AV12 Skimmer is arguably more survivable than an AV13 Tank.

The Falcon heavy lists were nerfed somewhat by taking away the over-effectivness of the Star Cannon, which is what was usually put on them (that or they were put elsewhere in the army and the Falcons carried lances). 

The Seer Council got fixed simply by the fact that you can't take an unlimited number in the squad.  Having it limited to 10 models fixes it just fine.

They also fixed the Altioc Disruption army of doom, which is nice.

The new Eldar dex is still probably very competitive (Falcons are still safe VP denial/scoring units) and you got some other incredible toys (harlequins).  I'm sure that it'll turn out to be about as broken as Marines are, just not the stupidly simple GT winning armies that they used to be.

I was able to get ahold of the codex yesterday for about an hour....Overall, I have to say that I am pleased with it in general.

 

I'll be list building & playtesting soon. I think that Yriel will find his way into my list....he gets all the abilities of an autarch while also being a close combat monster (5 attacks on charge with a singing spear that ignores saves @ Init 7...wow)

 

The sigle biggest dilema for me will be the HQ section...11 choices! Eldrad is actually pretty damn good and more powerfull than before (and cheaper). His divination ability no longer has that stupid 6" restriction from before. 2-4 units completely  redeployed and of course he gains doom.

I think that we will see less brightlances overall as the serpent builds and vypers that carry them got more  expensive (as well as the wraithlord). I believe that we had improvements in tank busting in other areas for this very reason.

no more stormies in a falcon due to unit size. Stormies seem dead overall due to new changes. Dragons in a falcon however still rock. I'll often use a base unit w/o upgrades. Now, for only 6 points more I can add an exarch w/ a heavy flamer while the other 5 have str 8 melta wepons. I don't see much reason for the exarch powers or the firepike though...I think we'll also see more dragons getting into cheap serpents...

 

Vibro cannons seem pretty interesting and usefull now. No LOS needed now. Shadow weavers are unchanged but dirt cheap.

Magua Ra can dish out 5 pinning / rending shots at 36" str6....not to mention bash your head in with str6 power weapon attacks (lol)

Avatar is no longer an independant character that I can tell....no more joining him to your council to take advantage of fortune on the unit...(I could be wrong)

Singing spear is fixed with an AP value. It also simply states that when thrown against vehicles it simply has a str of 9 (instead of the strx3) so there is no issues w/ monolith ect.

 

Just some quick observations.

Lazarus.

Y'know, I think a waveserpent with vectored engines and spirit stones is probably the most reliable transport in the game for the points, other than a falcon of course.

Moves 24" and requires a glancing 6 to stop the guys from getting out next turn or do them any harm.

It won't be the optimal build but 10 banshees in a waveserpent moving 24, then deploying and assaulting next turn would be fairly decent.

Addi n star engines for a 36" move with no restrictions of last edtition. Gotta love it. (lol)

 

Lazarus.

I can see an Eldar army based around 2 units of Hariles, an aspect squad in a Wave-serpent and a couple of Fire Prisms doing very well in VP tournaments. Once the Harlies have initiated combat, the Aspects can be delivered far more securely.

Not so sure about this 3-1-0 system we have in the UK now though, non-engagement Mech Eldar seem a much better choice (move on turn 6 for the win!).

Looked thru the store promotional copy yesterday and Maugan Ra is the shizzle. Yriel aint no scrub either. My impression is how can you not play the Eldar air force list with a waveserpent movement of 36' and surviviability with vehicle wargear. Harlequin list should also make a showing and may become the new close combat list of choice for 4th edition. Three troupes of Harlequins, 3 wraithlords, bikes, and Vypers for flavor and walla just enough flexibility to take on most lists.

Yriel is simply awesome as he can hurt anything effectively with his weapon. For once, we have a multitude of CC HQ's that can dish out the hurt.

 

Maugan Ra is also pretty amazing for what he does....there are only a few that I wouldn't consider...

Lazarus.

Pound for pound the best Phoenix lord is Asurmen. That guy is the shizzle.

Capt K

Excuse me? Tell me you dont deploy as well.....

No. Star Engines get you 36", then you wait a turn before deploying the Aspects, who can move and assault because the tank hasn't moved. The tank has to SURVIVE a turn, but the new Vectored Engines rules (Immobilized is just Immobilized, not crashed and destroyed) give you a better chance to survive that turn.

The vectored engines are what I think makes it worthwhile. Halves your chance of dying effectively.

Killin a waveserpent with vectored engines and preventing it from delivering its cargo is no easy feat. Putting 6 glancing hits on an AV12 thing with a wave generator is pretty challenging - no meltaguns, lascannons only glance 50% of the time, etc.

I could see rolling 3 of them right up into a shootie army's face with a 36" inch tank shock to bunch them up for your fire prisms, for instance. Then dropping a load of banshees next turn. Heck that might even make prisms useful if you could force people into tight formation with 3 36" moving wave serpents I think that might be a bit too gimmicky though, who knows.

"No. Star Engines get you 36", then you wait a turn before deploying the Aspects, who can move and assault because the tank hasn't moved. The tank has to SURVIVE a turn, but the new Vectored Engines rules (Immobilized is just Immobilized, not crashed and destroyed) give you a better chance to survive that turn."

The tank having to survive a turn is hardly the issue. The issue is how do the troops inside get into assault when they first have to exit from the rear, go around the tank, and somehow still have enough movement to make it to the enemy troops that have smartly moved 6" away from you during their turn. You better get some fancy fleet rolls with your Banshees or hope that you've cornered some unit at the table edge/corner, otherwise that unit's getting Rapid Fired out of existance next turn.

Sure, you can park your rear towards the enemy and reduce about half of the inches you'll have to travel, but I don't put much faith in AV10...

BYE

In practice I always park the serpents at an angle. They have a big long side, so I can usually get the side or front facing most of the enemy army while still shortening the distance to the nearest enemy unit. Having a 36" move will make this easier. Note that I normally shoot enemy fast-movers (like landspeeders) FIRST, which again reduces the amount of fire my tanks take in the rear.

And Also remember, you get 14.9+1d6" of movement to get into assault.

And if they moved away and you might not get the assault, that's one less turn of heavy weapons firing at the rest of your stuff

Correct me if I am mistaken, but can you boost to your 36" move, leave the front armor facing the enemy, leave it for the rest of the turn then, in the next turn, either:

a- rotate the vehicle's rear to the enemy, then get out and assault? I think this counts as the vehicle moving, though, so perhaps not.

or

b-move 'underneath' your own wave serpent or falcon? There really isn't any need to go around the model, is there? It should be high enough off the ground that the disembarking troops can move freely underneath it. The skimmers can move freely over enemy troops should they wish to, so I don't see a reason that friendly troops can't move freely underneath skimmers. As long as they don't really end their turn there. Or would that even matter?

I don't know, just trying to find a way to make it work easier. I think that a 36" move is HUGE, and if it is simply immobilized and not crash and burn, then so much the better. Expensive for standard kit, maybe, but I bet it would be missed if not bought.

a- I thought this too, but then I read the rules again and turning in the movement phase counts as movement. You can turn in the shooting phase and not count as moving if the vehicle hadnt moved in the movement phase and needs to rotate in order to fire on a target.

b- I am almost positive you cant do this either. Maybe this is possible if your models dont end up underneath at the end of their move, but I doubt it.  I

The only solution to this problem that I can think of is to disembark at the start of the move, then move your tank out of the way. Then move and assault with your unit.

None of the above are legal under the rules. Units must be moved in sequence. You are not permitted to start moving one unit, move another unit, then finish moving the first unit.

Pivoting a vehicle in the movement phase is movement. So if you pivot first, the troops can't move or assault after they get out.

No units are allowed to move under other units, whether friendly or enemy. Skimmers have a special rule permitting them to move over other units. It doesn?t give other units the ability to freely move under them.

Ok, I see what you are talking about. Still, with a 36" move, if you cant get your transport close enough that the troops cant run around and assault, then there is something wrong with how you are playing.

The side armor is just as good as the front armor, so you can come up to the unit you want to assault sideways and then you don't have to worry about going under your vehicle.

Just like an alliance operative. Come at them sideways.

Posted By The Crawling Chaos on 10/21/2006 12:56 PM

Just like an alliance operative. Come at them sideways.

Exalt!

I played in a gladiator tourney this weekend and although we were using the current  edition codex still I couldn't help but to think of the new rules as I played my games. In my first game I lost my falcon to the only thing that could shoot it which was a melta gun. A 5' & 6' and it went crashing down killing 2 of the dragons on board. If I hadn't lost that falcon I could have pulled out that game (dumb scenario lol). My falcon would have landed with nothing else to shoot it and I'd still have all of the dragons left (which are also better).

My second game wouldn't have made much difference except for the mobility of star engines. New dragons would have helped with the land raider....

Third game I also lost 2 falcons in the same manner. I also faced a nidzilla list and the str8 dragons would have been simply amazing. I already tortured him with the regualr dragons as it was.

Fourth game I also lost a falcon due to immobilization against a Lysander wing. (and 3 of my dragons). It was the last unit to shoot at it so I'd be returning fire and moving with the dragons as well.

 

I told my opponents of these coming changes and they just cringed at it.

 

Lazarus.

Anyone doing any playing with the new dex yet?

 

Lazarus.

1850 RTT list to try....

 

(210) Eldrad

(155) Prince Yriel

(157) 9 avengers + exarch w/ dire sword, pistol & blade storm

(130) waveserpent w/ TL shuriken cannons, spirit stones & vectored engines

(129) 3 jetbikes w/ cannon + warlock w/ singing spear, pistol & embolden

(134) 3 jetbikes w/ cannon + warlock w/ singing spear, pistol & destructor

(80) 5 firedragons

(108) 5 fire dragons + exarch w/ dragon's breath

(215) Falcon w/ pulse,shuriken cannon,star cannon, holo,stones,vectored engines

(215) Falcon w/ pulse,shuriken cannon,star cannon, holo,stones,vectored engines

(180) Prism w/ holo, stones, vectored engines

(137) 4 warp spiders + exarch w/ spinerette rifle & surprise assault

40 models

9 scoring units

2 HQ (20%)

3 TROOP (30%)

2 ELITE (10%)

1 FAST (7%)

3 HEAVY (33%)

 

Yriel gives startegy rating of 4 and +1 on reseves and is a beast in close combat (vs. tanks as well) Eldrad supports army in the bgining by dumping guide on both falcons and dooming a unit if close enough...possbiliy casting fortune on himself if not. His precog power can really hose an opponent if they are not carefull. He can either get into a falcon or serpent if needed or simply fleet to keep up with the tanks advance. Casting doom twice a round should help make the most of the avengers / bikes or prism for example. No lances in the list makes me cringe a bit but I stil think I have plenty of anti-tank in there while being fast as hell. Spiders benifit from the reserve modifier to go after artillery via deepstrike if need be.

Any thoughts?

I'm thinking of dropping the spiders for more bikes? I had originally though of using a seer on a bike but it costs soo muc that Eldrad seems like a no brainer with all of the power that he gets....

Lazarus.

 

First off, that's about as HQ heavy as I've ever seen an Eldar army (Seer Council from Hell notwithstanding).

I don't understand the DA/Serpent choice at all. DAs seem too expensive for what they are: Fire Warriors with crappy guns and decent WS. I don't know what else you'd spend the pts on, but Bikes are the clear winners in the troops section this edition. I can't imagine taking DAs for any reason. You basically bank on running forward, surviving (you figure the enemy won't land 6 glancing hits), and then running forward. Really far. If the enemy has half a mind, they'll run. If you can charge them, you're in rapid fire range. And no, FoF won't help, because then you won't be able to use your oh-so-precious bladestorm. And even then, who's to say you get close enough to even use the bladestorm without the 3.33 MEQs removed taking you out of charge range? Sure, you can get out and bladestorm. 3.33 MEQs are lying on the ground, and whatever you shot gets to rapid-fire you back. The Diresword also seems like a waste of pts. Sure, it's a force weapon, but if your opponent knows you're packing a diresword, he's going to make sure to heavy bolter the squad to death before they get anywhere near one of his characters. (And at S3, it's not like it will be putting too much of a dent in regular squads: .89 MEQs per turn).

I guess you need the Warlocks with the Bikes for the mobile lascannons. But the powers seem superfluous. Anything you get close enough to get a decent heavy flamer shot on will be charging you the next turn, and you don't want the bikes tied down in CC. I question embolden as well, but I suppose with the FotD around, it could be worth it. But you can get 2 squads of 3 bikes each with Shuricannons for roughly the same price as one of your squads right now. But I don't know where else you'd put in anti-tank.

Why the heavy flamer on the FDs? Versatility means nothing. Specialization is the name of the game. Don't waste a shot against a predator, and you won't be tempted to flame a huge squad of gaunts late in the game either. I'd go with 2 squads of 6 Dragons, no upgrades at all. They're too good for the pts just as they are.

Starcannons on Falcons? Too early to tell, IMHO. It just seems like they're too expensive now. Just remember that in 5+ cover the scatter laser is statistically equal to the Starcannon against MEQs but actually slightly better due to the increased number of shots.

The Spiders are an interesting choice. The Spinneret rifle seems like a good choice, but let's look at it: against LD 10 MEQs (Marines + Necrons), you're looking at .35 failed pinning tests per game, assuming no one is in cover. Even against LD 9 Chaos, you're looking at .70 failed pinning tests per game, again with no cover. Not worth it. Perhaps a unit of Hawks with haywires to for vehicle hunting would be useful. That might let you drop the SS Warlocks and take 2 more scoring jetbike squads.

Again, until I see the book with my own eyes, and more importantly watch it in action, it's all just really-removed theory hammer. Not just regular theory hammer. The really out-there version.  Then again, I suppose all message board talk on list design is theoryhammer and thus far-removed.  But now I'm getting into the territory of disclaiming knowledge a priori, and that's just madness... you know what, I'm going to stop now.

Yeah, but they are really cool characters. However, I would rather take a standard Autarch to get those benifits and run him with the Aspect Squad he is best suited at supporting.



Don't you mean Fire Warriors with a longer range, better BS, and not crappy in close combat? Besides anthing in a Wave Serpent plays VP denial first. Also, anything CC oriented in a DA squad is for the counter charge not to charge thenselves. Though I think (to save more points) I wouldn't take the Exarch, and if I was going to take the Exarch it would be duel S. Catapults, which puts you at 2.6 Dead MEQs when you Bladestorm, 3.9 if the unit is doomed.



It does seem a little pricey. Unless you really think you need the 5+ Cover Save, or the flame template I don't see a use for it.



I agree, however, that Heaby Flamer upgrade is cheap and very tempting.



He probably doesn't want to change his models unless he has too. However, I get tired of the "best" situation versus "worst" situation arguement. How often are MEQ's in cover, and why can't that same cover be applied to hiding our vehicles. We must assume that everything is on the same battle field.



Spiders are good Tank hunters as well because their speed allows them to get around enemy vehicles to that precious side or rear. The AP could be useful on the Rifle.



Well lazarus has seen, read, spent hours in, and made a list from the new codex (the store got it's preview copy) coppled that with his 20 years Eldar experiance and impressive RTT win record, I am more than silling to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I am thinking something like:

Autarch with jetbike, mandiblasters, laser lance (130)
Farseer with fortune (120ish)

10 harlequins with shadowseer and whatever (250ish)
2 x 6 fire dragons (182)

4 x tiny jetbike squads for scoring, with one shuriken cannon and spearlok (powers are for sissies)

3 x falcons with scatterlaser/shuricannon/stones/field/vectored engines (645 or so)

Should work pretty nicely. The jetbikes are uber at giving you lots of super fast scoring units for:
1) Objective grab
2) Rear armor
3) block exit hatches/monolith portals/etc

Might be good to drop some jetbikes but man 22 pt T4 3+ save guys with a JSJ move are hard to argue with.

I think the 130 pt S6 jetbike autarch is seriously keen also.

I got my look at the codex today and absolutely none of the special characters really appeal to me. They are just too expensive or too slow or both. Yriel is too slow. Eldrad is expensive. Phoenix lords are both slow and expensive, mostly.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>bigchris1313 </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

First off, that's about as HQ heavy as I've ever seen an Eldar army (Seer Council from Hell notwithstanding).

I'll admit that it is a tad heavy on the HQ side but I think it will be quite effective. Eldrad is worth every single point with ease....

I don't understand the DA/Serpent choice at all.

Considering that I have won numerous tourneys with them in the list using the current crappy rules how can I not look at this as an upgrade? Besides, I do have comp scoring to worry about so having the most common aspect in there helps....lol, I also like the colour. (jeez, that's soo non tactical isn't it?)

I guess you need the Warlocks with the Bikes for the mobile lascannons.

Pretty much. I've come to the conclusion that GW no longer wants us to use brightlances as they are hideously expensive to use now. The spear and the dragons got buffs for a reason I suppose.

But the powers seem superfluous.

I'd never call embolden on a LD8 unit superfluous. Destructor is iffy but I had an extra 5 points (lol). This is still all playtesting though.

Why the heavy flamer on the FDs? Versatility means nothing.

Really? Tell that to the madly versatile scorpions of our current codex. (lol) So versatile they get nerfed in the new dex.

I killed termies w/ destructors on saturday. It only takes a single failed save in the unit to have the same damn effect that the melta gun had  anyways. In addition it certianly helps on the times that you do not have terminators or vehicles / MC's to shoot at.

Don't waste a shot against a predator, and you won't be tempted to flame a huge squad of gaunts late in the game either. I'd go with 2 squads of 6 Dragons, no upgrades at all. They're too good for the pts just as they are.

I think that with the increase in str the first 5 fusion guns will do the job. The heavy flamer upgrade is FREE so for me that's hard to pass up. I have the one unit at 5 so that I can put either character in there if need be. The new FAQ gives us some options when using escalation in regards to how stuff can come in....

Starcannons on Falcons? Too early to tell, IMHO. It just seems like they're too expensive now. Just remember that in 5+ cover the scatter laser is statistically equal to the Starcannon against MEQs but actually slightly better due to the increased number of shots.

I was originally going to go w/ scatter lasers but realized that with guide on both of them from Eldrad I'll be hammering a lot of hits on target. Sure, in cover the star cannon loses a little bit of it's punch but making a 5++ is harder than making a 3+ isn't it? Where the scatter laser wins out is vs. hordes and light vehicles....I already have stuff for that.

The Spiders are an interesting choice. The Spinneret rifle seems like a good choice, but let's look at it: against LD 10 MEQs (Marines + Necrons), you're looking at .35 failed pinning tests per game, assuming no one is in cover. Even against LD 9 Chaos, you're looking at .70 failed pinning tests per game, again with no cover. Not worth it. Perhaps a unit of Hawks with haywires to for vehicle hunting would be useful. That might let you drop the SS Warlocks and take 2 more scoring jetbike squads.

I'll be using the spiders to nail rear / side armour on whirlwinds / bassies and the like. With that in mind I think I already have enough glances to deal with it. The thought of getting a penetrating hit makes me feel warm and fuzzy! (lol) Also, pinning is relatively rare but when it does work it's golden! Not to mention ap1 means a dead MEQ even possibly a terminator....Cost is same for the twin spinner...

I knew my list wouldn't be well received but then again I get odd looks from time to time based on choices....till they see them played. (lol)

Lazarus.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Mahu </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Yeah, but they are really cool characters. However, I would rather take a standard Autarch to get those benifits and run him with the Aspect Squad he is best suited at supporting.

You don't think that Yriel can support a unit? 5 attacks on the charge that wound anything on 2+ and ignore armour saves? Hitting vehicles at str9?

Again, it is the versatility that he offers my list. Put him with banshees for example and he wrecks units right along with them fast as hell while also being able to handle dreads or whatever else.

Though I think (to save more points) I wouldn't take the Exarch, and if I was going to take the Exarch it would be duel S. Catapults, which puts you at 2.6 Dead MEQs when you Bladestorm, 3.9 if the unit is doomed.

I'm also tyoing with the idea of the power weapon & shimmer shield. Get Yriel and eldrad in there with CC and you have a pretty damn durable unit. (lol)

It does seem a little pricey. Unless you really think you need the 5+ Cover Save, or the flame template I don't see a use for it.

When looking at the list  what were you really  going to spend 15 points on? (lol)

I agree, however, that Heaby Flamer upgrade is cheap and very tempting.

Cheap as in completely free.

He probably doesn't want to change his models unless he has too.

I'll be buying all new stuff for scott to start working on so change is a moot point. I started looking at the math comparring the scatter laser to the star cannon and came to the conclusion that the star cannon is still better vs. MEQ's. The star cannon is certainly better vs. heavy infantry and MC's etc.

Im using spiders over hawks as they are more durable and immediately usefull upon deepstriking....I'd hate to see hawks being gunned down by a whirlwind....

Well lazarus has seen, read, spent hours in, and made a list from the new codex (the store got it's preview copy) coppled that with his 20 years Eldar experiance and impressive RTT win record, I am more than silling to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks for the support. Great, now my hat doesn't fit (lol).

I'm not saying my list is the end all be all of lists. I'm saying that I think I can win games with it and likely easier than with my last list.....I'll be playing it tomorrow so I'll let you know how it goes.

Lazarus.

Lazarus: hmm taking both Yriel and Eldrad? would that be wise in a tournament using comp scoring? I dont know ive never actually used a special character ever really... As my colour scheme is sorta Ulthwe-ish I could definately take eldrad but I would probably replace Yriel with a standard autarch. If you put the Autarch on a bike you can have a similar ammount of attacks and a fair bit of independent mobility. On a side note, Eldrad doesnt have a jetbike option does he?

The 5 man spider unit seems a great one for tank busting, and the spinaret rifle will only need a 4+ to penetrate most rear armour (ap 1?)
Avengers you know Ill be using as well, but the way you have equipped your exarch you seem like you're expecting them to see combat? For me personally that setup means less shuri shots, but are you seeing them being charged or actually moving them in? Or are you just going for versatility?

Seems like a fun list to play with though...
btw are those exact points values?

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>garinator </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Lazarus: hmm taking both Yriel and Eldrad? would that be wise in a tournament using comp scoring?

Sure, why not? I'm creating my own craftworld theme for this force based around pirates. Often, pirates will work with different people right?

I would probably replace Yriel with a standard autarch. If you put the Autarch on a bike you can have a similar ammount of attacks and a fair bit of independent mobility.

The autarch (decently equipped) on the bike begins to cost nearly the same a Yriel. I LOVE Yriel's model btw. I like the fact that Yriel can drop a  wraithlord  on the charge. Mobility I already have....you did see my tanks right?

On a side note, Eldrad doesnt have a jetbike option does he?

No, the only real glaring weakness that I spot. However, I found that when I put a decently equipped seer on a bike that he was nearly as expensive as Eldrad was. Eldrad can't be instant killed by perils, can toss 3 powers per turn (including same one twice) and his precog power is awesome!

If my falcons are shooting then they are moving 12" or less. With this in mind I can start him near them (guide both) and either walk + fleet behind them or if I need to get somewhere in a hurry just get into the one that has 5 dragons.

I know the HQ's are fairly expensive but I still have roughly the same ammount of models that are usually in my mech list....I'm going to try it this way and see how it works.

The 5 man spider unit seems a great one for tank busting, and the spinaret rifle will only need a 4+ to penetrate most rear armour (ap 1?)

I thought so too. Many will tell you that you are better off with dual spinners on the exarch as it basically affords you 3 more shots at ap-. I figured that I could get the job done with the unit as is....If I find this to not be the case then perhaps I'll switch back to the dual spinners as the price is idential. I'm also liking the spiders combined with the autarch's +1 on reserves. Since it says you "may" add the +1 it might be possible to try and "hold" the reserves for a turn or two depending on how bad of a roller you are (lol).

Avengers you know Ill be using as well, but the way you have equipped your exarch you seem like you're expecting them to see combat? For me personally that setup means less shuri shots, but are you seeing them being charged or actually moving them in? Or are you just going for versatility?

I was really just going for the versatility. When you use blade storm you will not get to fire next turn so I think it's best to have a little bit of combat punch. With either Yriel or Eldrad backing them up the get just a tiny bit better don't they? I was actually thinking of using the shimmer shield as when it is combined with fortune they'll stick around alot longer in CC. (just some thoughts)

Seems like a fun list to play with though...

My thoughts exactly. I could certialy go for some cheaper HQ's to gain some points for other stuff but I still want to try it this way.

btw are those exact points values?

Yes, they are. From my understanding you can post exact point valuse of units etc. as long as you are not posting individual costs of wargeat / upgrades etc.

Lazarus.