Tomb King wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:

Also, as I state repeatedly to anyone that will listen: "OP" is a sore loser's way of saying "I don't have the skill or the drive to make an army that can take this one".

Sigh... you should really read the thread before posting garbage like this because your basically calling over 50% of the people that voted in the thread sore losers. A lot of good players(skill) hate grey knights(drive) with a passion and regardless of what they do sometimes victory is just unachievable. Say you run against a draigowing and you have the tools to beat and you manage to pull off the win. The next round you run into Purifier spam and get smashed or even if you pull it off the following round could see henchman spam. If you can find me an army that can deal with all 3 of those builds while still be an all comer list against other armies let me know. As of right now such an army does not exist. That is why the general consensus agree they are over-powered because they have so many options available to them that if you build to handle them you have to cover such a wide variety of strong list that you could still hit a mismatch.

So, lets say you run up on deathwing first game, then you run up on A vulkan list next round, and then you have to go up against guard or eldar, THEN you have to go up against tau....

dude your logic here fails.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:

Also, as I state repeatedly to anyone that will listen: "OP" is a sore loser's way of saying "I don't have the skill or the drive to make an army that can take this one".

Sigh... you should really read the thread before posting garbage like this because your basically calling over 50% of the people that voted in the thread sore losers. A lot of good players(skill) hate grey knights(drive) with a passion and regardless of what they do sometimes victory is just unachievable. Say you run against a draigowing and you have the tools to beat and you manage to pull off the win. The next round you run into Purifier spam and get smashed or even if you pull it off the following round could see henchman spam. If you can find me an army that can deal with all 3 of those builds while still be an all comer list against other armies let me know. As of right now such an army does not exist. That is why the general consensus agree they are over-powered because they have so many options available to them that if you build to handle them you have to cover such a wide variety of strong list that you could still hit a mismatch.

So, lets say you run up on deathwing first game, then you run up on A vulkan list next round, and then you have to go up against guard or eldar, THEN you have to go up against tau....

dude your logic here fails.

Oh that is easy. Grey knights beat them all.

yeah. Sure. Deathwing has access to Stormshields, Vulkan has freaking twinlinked melta and flamer weapons, and guard, well guard tear grey knights a new one. and tau? tau can sit outside of the effective range of most of the grey knights stuff, be immune to anything they have past 24" (practically) and shell them with str 10 ap 1 shots.

I'm curious to just how the toughest bastards in the known reaches of space are supposed to not be the toughest


I mean if you are comparing things do you not take into consideration that they are different?

Tomb King wrote:Sigh... you should really read the thread before posting garbage like this because your basically calling over 50% of the people that voted in the thread sore losers. A lot of good players(skill) hate grey knights(drive) with a passion and regardless of what they do sometimes victory is just unachievable. Say you run against a draigowing and you have the tools to beat and you manage to pull off the win. The next round you run into Purifier spam and get smashed or even if you pull it off the following round could see henchman spam. If you can find me an army that can deal with all 3 of those builds while still be an all comer list against other armies let me know. As of right now such an army does not exist. That is why the general consensus agree they are over-powered because they have so many options available to them that if you build to handle them you have to cover such a wide variety of strong list that you could still hit a mismatch.

So if the three GK powerbuilds were distributed across three distinct, mono-build books, that would be better?

Gornall wrote:

Tomb King wrote:Sigh... you should really read the thread before posting garbage like this because your basically calling over 50% of the people that voted in the thread sore losers. A lot of good players(skill) hate grey knights(drive) with a passion and regardless of what they do sometimes victory is just unachievable. Say you run against a draigowing and you have the tools to beat and you manage to pull off the win. The next round you run into Purifier spam and get smashed or even if you pull it off the following round could see henchman spam. If you can find me an army that can deal with all 3 of those builds while still be an all comer list against other armies let me know. As of right now such an army does not exist. That is why the general consensus agree they are over-powered because they have so many options available to them that if you build to handle them you have to cover such a wide variety of strong list that you could still hit a mismatch.

So if the three GK powerbuilds were distributed across three distinct, mono-build books, that would be better?

Apparently IG having foot guard, air cav and leaf blower makes them also op. Necrons have wraitwing, scarab farm, ctan trickery, etc so must be op since they also require different stuff to win. BA dreadnaught spam, DOA, DC and such also all need different stuff.. Must be op. Dont use the idea of multiple builds meaning a book is op. Almost every new codex can make 3 or more competitive lists thats different to play against.

Freaking air cav, IG lists with model counts that low should NOT be that competitive. At least without a squadron or two of heavy tanks.

gendoikari87 wrote:Freaking air cav, IG lists with model counts that low should NOT be that competitive. At least without a squadron or two of heavy tanks.

Veterans with camo-cloaks. 2+ cover save and 3 BS 4 potentially twin-linked plasma guns.
That for the same cost as a ten-man marine squad.

Joey wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:Freaking air cav, IG lists with model counts that low should NOT be that competitive. At least without a squadron or two of heavy tanks.

Veterans with camo-cloaks. 2+ cover save and 3 BS 4 potentially twin-linked plasma guns.
That for the same cost as a ten-man marine squad.

145 points. Can be spammed a gak ton. Also it's only a 3+ cover.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Joey wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:Freaking air cav, IG lists with model counts that low should NOT be that competitive. At least without a squadron or two of heavy tanks.

Veterans with camo-cloaks. 2+ cover save and 3 BS 4 potentially twin-linked plasma guns.
That for the same cost as a ten-man marine squad.

145 points. Can be spammed a gak ton. Also it's only a 3+ cover.

Give them vox casters for 150, chances of receiving an order are pretty high. Go to ground in the shooting phase for 2+ cover and you can order Back To the Fight (or whatever it's called) and they can shoot again. The enemy will need 6 wounds to kill each one so they become incredibly durable, the only downside is the sheer amount of wounds that can be inflicted will inevitably have to be allocated on the specials, today I had all three of them roll a 1...d'oh.

Go to ground in the shooting phase for 2+ cover and you can order Back To the Fight

That's freaking diabolical.... And people call grey knights OP.

Edit: Add a chimera so they will ALWAYS have that cover..... dude.....

gendoikari87 wrote:

Go to ground in the shooting phase for 2+ cover and you can order Back To the Fight

That's freaking diabolical.... And people call grey knights OP.

Edit: Add a chimera so they will ALWAYS have that cover..... dude.....

Yup. And rapid firing plasma guns from the firing hatch. And having five of these in a 1500 point list. Plus the command squad, with four plasmas, plus 3 Leman Russ Demolishers for a solid base in your gunline. I think most IG players are so civilised that it doesn't bother people.

How many competetive lists a codex can make does not make it OP. If anything, I applaud a codex with the kind of internal balance that allows for multible lists. GK has a lot of problems, not being monobuild is not one of them

Luke_Prowler wrote:How many competetive lists a codex can make does not make it OP. If anything, I applaud a codex with the kind of internal balance that allows for multible lists. GK has a lot of problems, not being monobuild is not one of them

Agreed. It doesn't really matter how many strong builds a codex has, it matters how powerful specific builds are.

Joey wrote:Give them vox casters for 150, chances of receiving an order are pretty high. Go to ground in the shooting phase for 2+ cover and you can order Back To the Fight (or whatever it's called) and they can shoot again. The enemy will need 6 wounds to kill each one so they become incredibly durable, the only downside is the sheer amount of wounds that can be inflicted will inevitably have to be allocated on the specials, today I had all three of them roll a 1...d'oh.

I take it people in your area don't use template weapons such as flamers, heavy flamers, incinerators or my favorite tank, the redeemer

Tomb King wrote:Sigh... you should really read the thread before posting garbage like this because your basically calling over 50% of the people that voted in the thread sore losers. A lot of good players(skill) hate grey knights(drive) with a passion and regardless of what they do sometimes victory is just unachievable. Say you run against a draigowing and you have the tools to beat and you manage to pull off the win. The next round you run into Purifier spam and get smashed or even if you pull it off the following round could see henchman spam. If you can find me an army that can deal with all 3 of those builds while still be an all comer list against other armies let me know. As of right now such an army does not exist. That is why the general consensus agree they are over-powered because they have so many options available to them that if you build to handle them you have to cover such a wide variety of strong list that you could still hit a mismatch.

40k was like that well before the GK's came out, honestly I think the DE dark lance spam is beyond a joke, I played a guy at 1k and he had 9 dark lances in his list, just horrible, I was lucky I managed to deploy all my stuff in cover so I could take out the ravagers turn on one, I had played the list before and got completely wiped out. What about space wolves? grey hunter spam is still damn good, relentless longfangs with counter attack anyone? I think we have a lot of silly options now, certainly certain things should have never made it into the books and I don't agree with characters that change the force organization. Purifiers and Paladins should never have a option to be troops, then again neither should deathwing, I don't mind when characters make things to count as scoring (thats ok). I feel we are getting back to the point that special characters are starting ruin the game and I think thats really the main issue with grey knights. Purifiers and Paladins wouldn't be half as bad if they had to compete over the limited elite slots!

The grenades are silly but if we look in all the new books we can find something that's just as silly, mind scarabs, haywire grenades, devs with A2 and counter attack (I hate longfangs), the list could go on really.

itsonlyme wrote:

Joey wrote:Give them vox casters for 150, chances of receiving an order are pretty high. Go to ground in the shooting phase for 2+ cover and you can order Back To the Fight (or whatever it's called) and they can shoot again. The enemy will need 6 wounds to kill each one so they become incredibly durable, the only downside is the sheer amount of wounds that can be inflicted will inevitably have to be allocated on the specials, today I had all three of them roll a 1...d'oh.

I take it people in your area don't use template weapons such as flamers, heavy flamers, incinerators or my favorite tank, the redeemer

If they get close enough to use them.. lol

itsonlyme wrote:

Joey wrote:Give them vox casters for 150, chances of receiving an order are pretty high. Go to ground in the shooting phase for 2+ cover and you can order Back To the Fight (or whatever it's called) and they can shoot again. The enemy will need 6 wounds to kill each one so they become incredibly durable, the only downside is the sheer amount of wounds that can be inflicted will inevitably have to be allocated on the specials, today I had all three of them roll a 1...d'oh.

I take it people in your area don't use template weapons such as flamers, heavy flamers, incinerators or my favorite tank, the redeemer

One of my favorite units to use as IG is a Platoon command squad with four flamers, and twin flamers on the chim. Now that, Ladies and gentlemen, is what you call a close range scorking hellhound.

Draigo wrote:If they get close enough to use them.. lol

Do what, now?

Monster Rain wrote:

Draigo wrote:If they get close enough to use them.. lol

Do what, now?

Yes because everyone has those..

Draigo wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Draigo wrote:If they get close enough to use them.. lol

Do what, now?

Yes because everyone has those..

My sternguard, tactical squads and venerabe dreadnought does, I think thats everyone but my speeders my grey knights get close enough, cover and popping smoke people are usually to busy shooting the stormraven to worry about anything else :p

gendoikari87 wrote:

itsonlyme wrote:

Joey wrote:Give them vox casters for 150, chances of receiving an order are pretty high. Go to ground in the shooting phase for 2+ cover and you can order Back To the Fight (or whatever it's called) and they can shoot again. The enemy will need 6 wounds to kill each one so they become incredibly durable, the only downside is the sheer amount of wounds that can be inflicted will inevitably have to be allocated on the specials, today I had all three of them roll a 1...d'oh.

I take it people in your area don't use template weapons such as flamers, heavy flamers, incinerators or my favorite tank, the redeemer

One of my favorite units to use as IG is a Platoon command squad with four flamers, and twin flamers on the chim. Now that, Ladies and gentlemen, is what you call a close range scorking hellhound.

I love my Paladins with twin incinerators for the template abuse , great way to target multiple units at once great fun storming out of a redeemer, maybe I should give my GM a incinerator as well for 5 strength 6 templates in one spot

itsonlyme wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Draigo wrote:If they get close enough to use them.. lol

Do what, now?

Yes because everyone has those..

My sternguard, tactical squads and venerabe dreadnought does, I think thats everyone but my speeders my grey knights get close enough, cover and popping smoke people are usually to busy shooting the stormraven to worry about anything else :p

Ah still naming things that not everyone has congrats. Though keep telling yourself the grey knight can do it that easy because youll need it if they blast you off the table. lol

Draigo wrote:Ah still naming things that not everyone has congrats. Though keep telling yourself the grey knight can do it that easy because youll need it if they blast you off the table. lol

If they don't have them then its not my problem really :p I will keep telling myself that, last time I played guard my redeemer was the only thing I had left, it was fine because he didn't have anything left :p was amusing chasing his infantry around with that, actually did that to a DE player as well, he forgot to give his wyches haywire grenades so my redeemer killed all 40 of them

itsonlyme wrote:

Draigo wrote:Ah still naming things that not everyone has congrats. Though keep telling yourself the grey knight can do it that easy because youll need it if they blast you off the table. lol

If they don't have them then its not my problem really :p I will keep telling myself that, last time I played guard my redeemer was the only thing I had left, it was fine because he didn't have anything left :p was amusing chasing his infantry around with that, actually did that to a DE player as well, he forgot to give his wyches haywire grenades so my redeemer killed all 40 of them

ouch lol

Was more funny because he was implying that Redeemers are rubbish and going on about how no one uses them, I don't think he realized it ignored FNP on his wyches my grey knight redeemer showed him and his stupid paper planes.

I am preety sure every marine player owns at least one. Hell, I play BA and I even own one. It is used for terrain.

Don't kid yourself, drop pod armies are scary beasts.

Hhhmm every marine? Im afraid my gk dont and neither do any xenos outside of nids. Though as far as your statement on drop pod lists I diagree. Go ahead and bring your army piecemeal to me I will appreciate it and ill appreciate the extra kp.

Until your opponent learns that he can reserve everything. It stops working after that. It also doesn't work if they have a land raider with a unit with warp quake inside. I hate warp quake.

Draigo wrote:Yes because everyone has those..

Truly, Space Marines (and variants thereof) with Drop Pods are a rarity.

Monster Rain wrote:

Draigo wrote:Yes because everyone has those..

Truly, Space Marines (and variants thereof) with Drop Pods are a rarity.

Well minus gk..

Though that option doesnt do much for non sm.

It was one common method of delivering flame templates. I shouldn't have to explain that it wasn't an exhaustive list of things that can ignore cover that can come up on you in a hurry.

Codex: Grey Knights has a nice looking options and variation. The problem is that every single unit in it is insanely low points cost.
5pts to increase weapon str. 5pts increased cost for vehicles that can ignore stunned and shake results. 10pts for 4 S7 rending shots for basic infantry.
Those are the thing what makes the codex OP.

Psycannons are that "cheap" on the PA choices because you replace a Force Weapon, Fortitude can be shut down and Psybolts are silly and should be more expensive on vehicles.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Psycannons are that "cheap" on the PA choices because you replace a Force Weapon, Fortitude can be shut down and Psybolts are silly and should be more expensive on vehicles.

5 skaven slaves is still pretty cheap when you compare the psycannon to a plasma gun. Sure the plasma gun is hugely over-costed, but the versitility of the psycannon and it's rending ability more than make-up for the loss of a single force weapon. Especially when the rest of the squad still have pointy-death-sticks.

Fortitude can be shut down by only half the armies in the game!
Damn strait it's a seriously OTT ability when Orks/Tau/Chaos marines/Necrons/Dark Eldar/Daemons can do sweet piss all to stop it going off.

Psybolts should be 20-30pts on dreads, psyflemen are just rediculous for their cost.

Oh, and warp quake seriously needs to have it's range halved so that Daemons can actually play the game!!!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Psycannons are that "cheap" on the PA choices because you replace a Force Weapon, Fortitude can be shut down and Psybolts are silly and should be more expensive on vehicles.

They replace a force weapon they get for basically free. So it's not a bad deal.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Fortitude can be shut down by only half the armies in the game!
Damn strait it's a seriously OTT ability when Orks/Tau/Chaos marines/Necrons/Dark Eldar/Daemons can do sweet piss all to stop it going off.

You forgot Black Templars and Imperial Guard. IMO it's not proof that it's OP but rather that all Codices need psychic defense added somehow. That issue isn't limited to Fortitude, after all.

We've been over Warp Quake; not many lists include that many Strike Squads or Interceptors. We've also been over opportunity cost for Force Weapons.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Fortitude can be shut down by only half the armies in the game!
Damn strait it's a seriously OTT ability when Orks/Tau/Chaos marines/Necrons/Dark Eldar/Daemons can do sweet piss all to stop it going off.

You forgot Black Templars and Imperial Guard. IMO it's not proof that it's OP but rather that all Codices need psychic defense added somehow. That issue isn't limited to Fortitude, after all.

We've been over Warp Quake; not many lists include that many Strike Squads or Interceptors. We've also been over opportunity cost for Force Weapons.

So rather than fixing psychic powers in a single codex, you are suggesting that every other codex in the game gets a counter versus said psychic powers. In other words, these powers are overpowered, until every other codex gets fixed?

Mandor wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Fortitude can be shut down by only half the armies in the game!
Damn strait it's a seriously OTT ability when Orks/Tau/Chaos marines/Necrons/Dark Eldar/Daemons can do sweet piss all to stop it going off.

You forgot Black Templars and Imperial Guard. IMO it's not proof that it's OP but rather that all Codices need psychic defense added somehow. That issue isn't limited to Fortitude, after all.

We've been over Warp Quake; not many lists include that many Strike Squads or Interceptors. We've also been over opportunity cost for Force Weapons.

So rather than fixing psychic powers in a single codex, you are suggesting that every other codex in the game gets a counter versus said psychic powers. In other words, these powers are overpowered, until every other codex gets fixed?

They aren't overpowered, they work just as intended against Codices with psychic defense. The Codices that DON'T have psychic defense, however, are UP in the respect that they can't do anything to stop them. If they were OP, would you say that Fortune, Null Zone, Shrouding and Catalyst are OP too?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Fortitude can be shut down by only half the armies in the game!
Damn strait it's a seriously OTT ability when Orks/Tau/Chaos marines/Necrons/Dark Eldar/Daemons can do sweet piss all to stop it going off.

You forgot Black Templars and Imperial Guard. IMO it's not proof that it's OP but rather that all Codices need psychic defense added somehow. That issue isn't limited to Fortitude, after all.

We've been over Warp Quake; not many lists include that many Strike Squads or Interceptors. We've also been over opportunity cost for Force Weapons.

I don't know about giving everyone psychic defense. Personally I'd rather it go the other way, where psychic hoods do something else, like let you reroll your psychic test, prevent perils or add range to powers then nullify abilities. It's kind of a silly mechanic that against half of my opponents the effectiveness of my librarian is halved, and it unfairly punishes the armies that don't have psy-def if enemies points costs are balanced around their powers only working half the time.

Carnage43 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Fortitude can be shut down by only half the armies in the game!
Damn strait it's a seriously OTT ability when Orks/Tau/Chaos marines/Necrons/Dark Eldar/Daemons can do sweet piss all to stop it going off.

You forgot Black Templars and Imperial Guard. IMO it's not proof that it's OP but rather that all Codices need psychic defense added somehow. That issue isn't limited to Fortitude, after all.

We've been over Warp Quake; not many lists include that many Strike Squads or Interceptors. We've also been over opportunity cost for Force Weapons.

I don't know about giving everyone psychic defense. Personally I'd rather it go the other way, where psychic hoods do something else, like let you reroll your psychic test, prevent perils or add range to powers then nullify abilities. It's kind of a silly mechanic that against half of my opponents the effectiveness of my librarian is halved, and it unfairly punishes the armies that don't have psy-def if enemies points costs are balanced around their powers only working half the time.

As long as the armies without psychic powers have some sort of power compensation, that sounds good.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:They aren't overpowered, they work just as intended against Codices with psychic defense. The Codices that DON'T have psychic defense, however, are UP in the respect that they can't do anything to stop them. If they were OP, would you say that Fortune, Null Zone, Shrouding and Catalyst are OP too?

So rather than being balanced in general, you are saying they are balanced against specific codices and are overpowered against all others, right?

And no, I don't think Fortune, Null Zone, Shrouding and Catalyst are overpowered specifically. Some others are way out there (JotWW, Warp Rift, Warp Quake, for example), but I see a certain trend here. And that is that they are all (or at least mostly) part of the, let's keep it at, "most powerful" codices. And coincidentally, these "most powerful" codices also have psychic defense... hmm... makes you wonder...

Thunder555 wrote:Codex: Grey Knights has a nice looking options and variation. The problem is that every single unit in it is insanely low points cost.
5pts to increase weapon str. 5pts increased cost for vehicles that can ignore stunned and shake results. 10pts for 4 S7 rending shots for basic infantry.
Those are the thing what makes the codex OP.

... On a 1 A model.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Damn strait it's a seriously OTT ability when Orks/Tau/Chaos marines/Necrons/Dark Eldar/Daemons can do sweet piss all to stop it going off.

Yeah because God knows tau have nothing to stop a dread that can ignore being shaken and stunned. It's not like they have a weapon that can penetrate it on a 3+ and wreck it on a 4+ at range.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Carnage43 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Fortitude can be shut down by only half the armies in the game!
Damn strait it's a seriously OTT ability when Orks/Tau/Chaos marines/Necrons/Dark Eldar/Daemons can do sweet piss all to stop it going off.

You forgot Black Templars and Imperial Guard. IMO it's not proof that it's OP but rather that all Codices need psychic defense added somehow. That issue isn't limited to Fortitude, after all.

We've been over Warp Quake; not many lists include that many Strike Squads or Interceptors. We've also been over opportunity cost for Force Weapons.

I don't know about giving everyone psychic defense. Personally I'd rather it go the other way, where psychic hoods do something else, like let you reroll your psychic test, prevent perils or add range to powers then nullify abilities. It's kind of a silly mechanic that against half of my opponents the effectiveness of my librarian is halved, and it unfairly punishes the armies that don't have psy-def if enemies points costs are balanced around their powers only working half the time.

As long as the armies without psychic powers have some sort of power compensation, that sounds good.

This is part of the core issue with balance of GKs and units with psychic defense. Do you balance their points cost around them only being able to use their powers less then half the time and make them "Over -powered/under-costed" against enemies with no psychic defense, or do you balance their points around them being able to use their power 80%-90% of the time, and make them "under-powered/over-priced" when faced with psychic defense. The third option is some sort of middle ground where you try to guess how often you will face psy-defense and balance to that random number, but that still has some wiggle room for balance.

This is one of the main issues why Zoanthropes for nids are so...meh. Against non-psy defense armies their warp blast is about as effective as a close range melta-weapon, but against armies with psy defense their effectiveness is halved. How to you balance that?

In my opinion Psy-defense needs to be done away with, and the powers balanced as any other weapon or ability. Without them being rendered half effective it's significantly easier to balance abilities. Other armies wouldn't NEED a power boost to compensate if everything was appropriately balanced against all armies.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Mandor wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Fortitude can be shut down by only half the armies in the game!
Damn strait it's a seriously OTT ability when Orks/Tau/Chaos marines/Necrons/Dark Eldar/Daemons can do sweet piss all to stop it going off.

You forgot Black Templars and Imperial Guard. IMO it's not proof that it's OP but rather that all Codices need psychic defense added somehow. That issue isn't limited to Fortitude, after all.

We've been over Warp Quake; not many lists include that many Strike Squads or Interceptors. We've also been over opportunity cost for Force Weapons.

So rather than fixing psychic powers in a single codex, you are suggesting that every other codex in the game gets a counter versus said psychic powers. In other words, these powers are overpowered, until every other codex gets fixed?

They aren't overpowered, they work just as intended against Codices with psychic defense. The Codices that DON'T have psychic defense, however, are UP in the respect that they can't do anything to stop them. If they were OP, would you say that Fortune, Null Zone, Shrouding and Catalyst are OP too?

And you stubbornly refuse to understand just how derpy a 10 man warp quake cabale squad is. Combat squads gives you double the coverage, typically on a unit that's used to hold objectives or on a squad that can move to almost anywhere at will.
By using the max 2" coherency, you effectively lock-off an area of about 30"+ that's now an auto-mishap! With just 5 guys... Sure, that's not OTT in any way. Now double that, and Daemons are fethed by just 10 models and have 0 ways to counter. Plus it seems you fail to take into account that the quake bubble forces the daemon player to try and land 7" back from the quakezone to avoid scattering into it!
Yep, that's brilliant games design right there!

Powers like Fortune, Shrouding, Catalyst, Null Zone can be delt with and don't radically alter the entire mechanics of the game. Fortitude & Warp Quake especially are absolute b ds to deal with, to the point of being broken against armies with little to no way of shutting them down.

Not having psychic defense doesn't make an army UP when most of the psychic abilities in the game are pretty sane. (Null Zone for me might be a pain, but it means Fateweaver for example becomes that much more of a bonus to have because his ability counters the psychic power's effects)
Some armies also don't allow for psykers by the very nature of their background - Tau have little to no psychic potential, while Dark Eldar outright hate those with psychic abilities. Black Templars are too distrustful of psykers, seeing them only as 'unclean witches'. Giving those armies psykers makes no sense, unless you're trying to say that automatically makes them UP forever because of it?!

GW dropped the ball big time with GK's by not showing any care or forethought to the army's external balances - just like they did with 7th ed Daemons, min/maxed pts denial VC's, Skaven SAD, 40k mechhammer and other well bemoaned problem books.

For the record strike squads are awful and rarely used by most players so really you should be more upset with those that do. Some daemon players have played against some less then good opponents for casual games.

If people are still going to harp on foritude then they need to include living metal and quick nit picking. Living metal cant be shut off like fortitude can be.

Draigo wrote:For the record strike squads are awful and rarely used by most players so really you should be more upset with those that do. Some daemon players have played against some less then good opponents for casual games.

If people are still going to harp on foritude then they need to include living metal and quick nit picking. Living metal cant be shut off like fortitude can be.

Living metal only works on a 2+ or a 4+
Fortitude is auto.
LM has a chance to fail.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Fortitude is auto.

Umm. No, it's a psychic power.

LM has a chance to fail.

As does Fortitude. LM can't be hooded or runic staff'd. LM doesn't have a chance of perils.

pretre wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Fortitude is auto.

Umm. No, it's a psychic power.

LM has a chance to fail.

As does Fortitude. LM can't be hooded or runic staff'd. LM doesn't have a chance of perils.

Do vehicles suffer perils of the warp?
And most armies don't have a runic staff. I for once have never seen fortitude fail. I have seen Living Metal fail plenty of times though.

Yes vehicles do. They take a glance if they perils.

Draigo wrote:Yes vehicles do. They take a glance if they perils.

Alright, fair enough.
The likelyhood of that happening though is really slim.

I think psipowers should be nerfed overall anyway. They are way too powerful for what is needed.
I mean, weaken resolve? Comon!

Draigo wrote:For the record strike squads are awful and rarely used by most players so really you should be more upset with those that do. Some daemon players have played against some less then good opponents for casual games.

If people are still going to harp on foritude then they need to include living metal and quick nit picking. Living metal cant be shut off like fortitude can be.

I've seen both Strike and Interceptor squads in some pretty competitive lists. And it's not like a GK player has to spam either in order to seriously screw up a Daemon player's deployment.

Janthkin wrote:

Draigo wrote:For the record strike squads are awful and rarely used by most players so really you should be more upset with those that do. Some daemon players have played against some less then good opponents for casual games.

If people are still going to harp on foritude then they need to include living metal and quick nit picking. Living metal cant be shut off like fortitude can be.

I've seen both Strike and Interceptor squads in some pretty competitive lists. And it's not like a GK player has to spam either in order to seriously screw up a Daemon player's deployment.

I used 2 strike squads in a draigowing tourney before due to a few guys I knew would be there. One had a nasty habit of dropping doom on objectives and the others had a need to plop furioso/ironclads. Wouldnt that be similar to orkz or nids spreading out their units to make it harder to ds? Granted maybe not as fast as interceptors but still in the same spirit?

Draigo wrote:For the record strike squads are awful and rarely used by most players so really you should be more upset with those that do. Some daemon players have played against some less then good opponents for casual games.

Whats wrong with them exactly? oh wait nothing, purifiers are just broken and make everything else look worse than they are, strikes are basically the GK version of a tactical squad, I know which I would rather have

Not a problem of grey knights but psychers overall. The more recent codexes have some huge game altering psychic ability contained within them and lo and behold these same psykers also have the best defense against psychic abilities (rune staff, runes of warding, psychic hood)

I have heard rumors that all psychers will be granted a base 5+ psychic defense to all psychers but that is of zero help to Tau or demons and still leaves CSM and Orks with a hand tied behind their back (as opposed to being hamstringed like now).

I would say offer the psychic hood as a 25-50 pt upgrade to a psyker rather than as a freebie and then we are all going to take some tough choices in our force selection...
Hmmm 200 pts for the psychic hood 2 powers per turn psyker or 100 pts for an offensive psyker without a hood...

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Draigo wrote:Yes vehicles do. They take a glance if they perils.

Alright, fair enough.
The likelyhood of that happening though is really slim.

Perils happens on 1,1 and 6,6 (not counting Shadows or Wards or whatever). Vehicles are 10, so that's 3 results (including 11) that could result in it failing.

If you include a psychic hood on the board, runic staff, runes or whatever, chances of fortitude going down the drain gets even better.

It's still an awesome ability, but it isn't perfect. LM is less accurate but more reliable.

pretre wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Draigo wrote:Yes vehicles do. They take a glance if they perils.

Alright, fair enough.
The likelyhood of that happening though is really slim.

If you include a psychic hood on the board, runic staff, runes or whatever, chances of fortitude going down the drain gets even better.
.

The problem there is that only IoM armies have those sorts of items (odd, really, considering how CSM and daemons don't, and yet they are supposed to be part of the stuff). And maybe eldar, but I am not sure. Bit of an imbalance in power, don't you think? Half the armies in the game have hardly anyway of counter-acting psi powers, and the ones who do are the ones that can use them!

CthuluIsSpy wrote:The problem there is that only IoM armies have those sorts of items (odd, really, considering how CSM and daemons don't, and yet they are supposed to be part of the stuff). And maybe eldar, but I am not sure. Bit of an imbalance in power, don't you think? Half the armies in the game have hardly anyway of counter-acting psi powers, and the ones who do are the ones that can use them!

Eldar and Tyranids.

Necrons and DE have some psychic defense, but no counters.

pretre wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:The problem there is that only IoM armies have those sorts of items (odd, really, considering how CSM and daemons don't, and yet they are supposed to be part of the stuff). And maybe eldar, but I am not sure. Bit of an imbalance in power, don't you think? Half the armies in the game have hardly anyway of counter-acting psi powers, and the ones who do are the ones that can use them!

Eldar and Tyranids.

Necrons and DE have some psychic defense, but no counters.

Oh right, shadow of the warp. I forgot about that . what was the range though? 12" or 24"?
And what do eldar get?

Yes, the gloom prism. A glorious 3" bubble that invites pie plates if you try to use it. Very effective.

And DE...what do they have? Crucible of malediction isn't it? What does that do?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

pretre wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:The problem there is that only IoM armies have those sorts of items (odd, really, considering how CSM and daemons don't, and yet they are supposed to be part of the stuff). And maybe eldar, but I am not sure. Bit of an imbalance in power, don't you think? Half the armies in the game have hardly anyway of counter-acting psi powers, and the ones who do are the ones that can use them!

Eldar and Tyranids.

Necrons and DE have some psychic defense, but no counters.

Oh right, shadow of the warp. I forgot about that . what was the range though? 12" or 24"?
And what do eldar get?

Yes, the gloom prism. A glorious 3" bubble that invites pie plates if you try to use it. Very effective.

And DE...what do they have? Crucible of malediction isn't it? What does that do?

Well be fair now gk dont really have a lot of templates outside of henchman for spiders and theyre mc who wont get doubled out.. template at best is A wound. SitW is very good vs gk since theyre powers are mostly cc. The range on it is 12 or 18 for swarmlord. Eldars covers the entire board. You know whats works real good too for de anti psyker? A dl to the face or 118 plus splinter shots.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Oh right, shadow of the warp. I forgot about that . what was the range though? 12" or 24"?
And what do eldar get?

Yes, the gloom prism. A glorious 3" bubble that invites pie plates if you try to use it. Very effective.

And DE...what do they have? Crucible of malediction isn't it? What does that do?

You might want to research what exists a bit before making declarative statements.

SotW is 12" and roll 3d6 for all psychic. Perils on double 1 or 6s, fail as normal.
Eldar have the only remaining unlimited range psychic defense with Runes of Warding. All opponent psykers roll 3d6 and peril on any roll above 12 (in addition to normal).
Gloom Prism is for any unit within 3", not model. All it takes is one model in the unit to be in range for the entire unit to have the gloom prism effect.
DE have Malys (who is immune to psychic powers) and CoM (every psyker within 3d6" takes a leadership test or is removed from play, no save).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, Nids have Deathleaper as well. A less popular choice, but he can lower the leadership of an enemy psyker. Makes it a pain to try to make your psychic test on a 7.

The big difference between Living metal and Fortitude (other then psy-def messing up Fort obviously) is that fortitude is all or nothing. If you get stunned/shaken and pass the psy-test, all is good. If living metal ignores that stun/shake, you can just fire another weapon at it and make him take another save until the vehicle is either dead or stays stunned. The thing that makes fortitude better IMO is that you can stun a vehicle, then move on to other targets, but it can un-stun itself later. At least when you manage to stun a Necron vehicle you know it stays that way.

Also, if you were to volley fire 5 missiles or an AC and 2 LCs (from Long Fangs or a predator for example) the necron player has to make a save for each stun/shake, where the GK player only has to pass 1 psy test whether it's 1 or 5 stuns. If GK had to make the psy-test after each stun/shake result immediately, I wouldn't have an issue with it.

pretre wrote:You might want to research what exists a bit before making declarative statements.

SotW is 12" and roll 3d6 for all psychic. Perils on double 1 or 6s, fail as normal.
Eldar have the only remaining unlimited range psychic defense with Runes of Warding. All opponent psykers roll 3d6 and peril on any roll above 12 (in addition to normal).
Gloom Prism is for any unit within 3", not model. All it takes is one model in the unit to be in range for the entire unit to have the gloom prism effect.
DE have Malys (who is immune to psychic powers) and CoM (every psyker within 3d6" takes a leadership test or is removed from play, no save).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, Nids have Deathleaper as well. A less popular choice, but he can lower the leadership of an enemy psyker. Makes it a pain to try to make your psychic test on a 7.

Dark Angels have an unlimited range psychic hood as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:And you stubbornly refuse to understand just how derpy a 10 man warp quake cabale squad is. Combat squads gives you double the coverage, typically on a unit that's used to hold objectives or on a squad that can move to almost anywhere at will.
By using the max 2" coherency, you effectively lock-off an area of about 30"+ that's now an auto-mishap! With just 5 guys... Sure, that's not OTT in any way. Now double that, and Daemons are fethed by just 10 models and have 0 ways to counter. Plus it seems you fail to take into account that the quake bubble forces the daemon player to try and land 7" back from the quakezone to avoid scattering into it!
Yep, that's brilliant games design right there!

Powers like Fortune, Shrouding, Catalyst, Null Zone can be delt with and don't radically alter the entire mechanics of the game. Fortitude & Warp Quake especially are absolute b ds to deal with, to the point of being broken against armies with little to no way of shutting them down.

If you combat squad then you are testing on an 8. And that's not always feasible given a KP mission. Ok, you are putting forward a list of stuff that could shut down daemons. Here's another list:
What if the daemons go first? Then there is no time for warp quake.
What if you fail your psychic test? Then you are exposing an entire flank and giving up that five man squad for dead.
What if they plant their first unit and then bring in everyone else around the icon? Then your power did nothing but delay the assault for a turn.

Everyone seems to be looking at only the negatives here, but there's a 50% chance that warp quake won't even be usable against daemons.

Well be fair now gk dont really have a lot of templates outside of henchman for spiders and theyre mc who wont get doubled out.. template at best is A wound. SitW is very good vs gk since theyre powers are mostly cc. The range on it is 12 or 18 for swarmlord. Eldars covers the entire board. You know whats works real good too for de anti psyker? A dl to the face or 118 plus splinter shots.

I was actually referring to IG then. Weaken resolve, I find, is a stupidly powerful ability.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I was actually referring to IG then. Weaken resolve, I find, is a stupidly powerful ability.

Only if you run huge 500+ point deathstar units that aren't fearless. Otherwise, it is good but not overpowered.

pretre wrote:

SotW is 12" and roll 3d6 for all psychic. Perils on double 1 or 6s, fail as normal. Good against GK force weapons, not so good at anything outside that. Like that SW spell.

Eldar have the only remaining unlimited range psychic defense with Runes of Warding. All opponent psykers roll 3d6 and peril on any roll above 12 (in addition to normal). Ok, that's really good

Gloom Prism is for any unit within 3", not model. All it takes is one model in the unit to be in range for the entire unit to have the gloom prism effect. Still doesn't change the fact that you have to be close to the spyder to use it, meaning that if you want to block, say, weaken resolve, the spyders and the squad within the bubble are going to take template hits

DE have Malys (who is immune to psychic powers) and CoM (every psyker within 3d6" takes a leadership test or is removed from play, no save). Not really reliable is it though? Not only do you have to hope that it goes far enough, you then have to hope that the psykers fail their test on a 2d6. Still, it would be absolutely hilarious to use against GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, Nids have Deathleaper as well. A less popular choice, but he can lower the leadership of an enemy psyker. Makes it a pain to try to make your psychic test on a 7. Yeah, I miss that back when I could use pariahs. Oh well.

You still didn't list any psychic defenses for demons and chaos, which is a pretty big deal, considering how psi powers come from chaos!
Now, you have to understand my argument. Its not that GK are OP, its that Psi powers in general are OP, due to the fact that it takes fairly little to have some pretty devasting results (weaken resolve, maw of the wolf thingy), and that there are few (non IoM) armies that can counter it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I was actually referring to IG then. Weaken resolve, I find, is a stupidly powerful ability.

Only if you run huge 500+ point deathstar units that aren't fearless. Otherwise, it is good but not overpowered.

You fire WR at an enemy squad, reduce them past 50% casualties and they run off the board, unable to regroup. A bit of a cheap shot, don't you think?

Cthulu makes a good point about Psychic Powers. The problem is they are absurdly good against some armies (CSM, Orks, Daemons, Sisters, D Eldard) who have no psychic defenses at all (I am excluding Kharn/Malys as they are not actually psychic defense)

Necrons have limited psychic defense from their Spyders. Sadly all the armies I play have no access to psychic defense (Sisters and Daemons) which makes that matchup EXTREMLY difficult. Even a single Dreadknight in a non-optimized list with a jump pack can wreck havoc with Dark Excommunication and a Heavy Incinerator. The fact that the only AP 1 shooting to take it down is the same shooting I need to use to open up vehicles at range is just the icing on the cake!

I don't disagree that psychic powers are powerful and that all races should have two of the following three things: psychic defense, offense and counters.

I disagree with your earlier, untrue, assertions that no one but IoM has defense, etc so on.

Re: WR, you have to use that unit plus however other units in your army to get them under 50% and hope they are near a board edge since it only lasts for that player turn. And hope they don't have some regroup shenanigans. It isn't foolproof or overpowered. Good, yes.

pretre wrote:I don't disagree that psychic powers are powerful and that all races should have two of the following three things: psychic defense, offense and counters.

I disagree with your earlier, untrue, assertions that no one but IoM has defense, etc so on.

Re: WR, you have to use that unit plus however other units in your army to get them under 50% and hope they are near a board edge since it only lasts for that player turn. And hope they don't have some regroup shenanigans. It isn't foolproof or overpowered. Good, yes.

Yeah, ok, I was a bit wrong that IoM were the only ones that had psi-defense...they are the ones with decent psi defence
With the exception of Eldar and Nids, which are both fairly effective, of course.

There are only two races that I could think of that have regroup shenanigans - SM and nids. Beyond that I have no idea.

pretre wrote:I don't disagree that psychic powers are powerful and that all races should have two of the following three things: psychic defense, offense and counters.

I disagree with your earlier, untrue, assertions that no one but IoM has defense, etc so on.

Re: WR, you have to use that unit plus however other units in your army to get them under 50% and hope they are near a board edge since it only lasts for that player turn. And hope they don't have some regroup shenanigans. It isn't foolproof or overpowered. Good, yes.

I disagree with the presumption that all races should be forced to utilize psychic defense to be competitive. I shouldn't be forced into an offensive librarian in every marine build just to counter something like backfield fortitude. That creates a situation wherein a significant investment of points is pressed into a mandatory component. If every marine army has to spend ~300 points on a librarian and supporting elements to counter the direct threat of GK (and GK only) psychic spam then it's a poor situation in the meta. It increases the prevalence of modular segmentation in army creation (you can already see it happen due to the metal box meta) and it makes for a less diverse playing field.

What makes it terrible is that players are essentially forced into the concept of modular in built psychic defense blocs in all lists specifically because of a single overprevalent and metabreaking army. That implies something beyond simple "preparedness". It implies that the meta for the game had/has to change specifically to counter a type of threat that didn't previously exist and which seems to trump most others.

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:I don't disagree that psychic powers are powerful and that all races should have two of the following three things: psychic defense, offense and counters.

I disagree with your earlier, untrue, assertions that no one but IoM has defense, etc so on.

Re: WR, you have to use that unit plus however other units in your army to get them under 50% and hope they are near a board edge since it only lasts for that player turn. And hope they don't have some regroup shenanigans. It isn't foolproof or overpowered. Good, yes.

I disagree with the presumption that all races should be forced to utilize psychic defense to be competitive. I shouldn't be forced into an offensive librarian in every marine build just to counter something like backfield fortitude. That creates a situation wherein a significant investment of points is pressed into a mandatory component. If every marine army has to spend ~300 points on a librarian and supporting elements to counter the direct threat of GK (and GK only) psychic spam then it's a poor situation in the meta. It increases the prevalence of modular segmentation in army creation (you can already see it happen due to the metal box meta) and it makes for a less diverse playing field.

What makes it terrible is that players are essentially forced into the concept of modular in built psychic defense blocs in all lists specifically because of a single overprevalent and metabreaking army. That implies something beyond simple "preparedness". It implies that the meta for the game had/has to change specifically to counter a type of threat that didn't previously exist and which seems to trump most others.

Thats like saying I shouldnt be forced to take psyfleman because an IG player sits in a corner and shoots.

Actually your not forced into taking anything, I guess it depends if you see the value of other abilities and units.

itsonlyme wrote:Actually your not forced into taking anything, I guess it depends if you see the value of other abilities and units.

Exactly, I think that all armies should have some form of access to those things. Just as all armies should have some sort of access to anti-vehicle, anti-infantry, blahdeblah. The quality, cost and desire to take it will change depending on the list.

Tomb King wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:

Also, as I state repeatedly to anyone that will listen: "OP" is a sore loser's way of saying "I don't have the skill or the drive to make an army that can take this one".

Sigh... you should really read the thread before posting garbage like this because your basically calling over 50% of the people that voted in the thread sore losers. A lot of good players(skill) hate grey knights(drive) with a passion and regardless of what they do sometimes victory is just unachievable. Say you run against a draigowing and you have the tools to beat and you manage to pull off the win. The next round you run into Purifier spam and get smashed or even if you pull it off the following round could see henchman spam. If you can find me an army that can deal with all 3 of those builds while still be an all comer list against other armies let me know. As of right now such an army does not exist. That is why the general consensus agree they are over-powered because they have so many options available to them that if you build to handle them you have to cover such a wide variety of strong list that you could still hit a mismatch.

And I maintain what I said. If someone wants to make excuses for their inability to play well, and they blame how everything is stacked against them, or such and such combo is cheap, or such and such is OP, I will not play with TFG. Most players in my area are good players that take accountability for their wins and losses.

Personally, if I come up against something my army can't beat in a game, I want to play that person again because it's a challenge. Yeah, I might need to alter my list, but I'm not going to go cry about it.

pretre wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Oh right, shadow of the warp. I forgot about that . what was the range though? 12" or 24"?
And what do eldar get?

Yes, the gloom prism. A glorious 3" bubble that invites pie plates if you try to use it. Very effective.

And DE...what do they have? Crucible of malediction isn't it? What does that do?

You might want to research what exists a bit before making declarative statements.

SotW is 12" and roll 3d6 for all psychic. Perils on double 1 or 6s, fail as normal.
Eldar have the only remaining unlimited range psychic defense with Runes of Warding. All opponent psykers roll 3d6 and peril on any roll above 12 (in addition to normal).
Gloom Prism is for any unit within 3", not model. All it takes is one model in the unit to be in range for the entire unit to have the gloom prism effect.
DE have Malys (who is immune to psychic powers) and CoM (every psyker within 3d6" takes a leadership test or is removed from play, no save).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, Nids have Deathleaper as well. A less popular choice, but he can lower the leadership of an enemy psyker. Makes it a pain to try to make your psychic test on a 7.

I believe dark angels psychic hood is unlimited range.

TheHarleqwin wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:

Also, as I state repeatedly to anyone that will listen: "OP" is a sore loser's way of saying "I don't have the skill or the drive to make an army that can take this one".

Sigh... you should really read the thread before posting garbage like this because your basically calling over 50% of the people that voted in the thread sore losers. A lot of good players(skill) hate grey knights(drive) with a passion and regardless of what they do sometimes victory is just unachievable. Say you run against a draigowing and you have the tools to beat and you manage to pull off the win. The next round you run into Purifier spam and get smashed or even if you pull it off the following round could see henchman spam. If you can find me an army that can deal with all 3 of those builds while still be an all comer list against other armies let me know. As of right now such an army does not exist. That is why the general consensus agree they are over-powered because they have so many options available to them that if you build to handle them you have to cover such a wide variety of strong list that you could still hit a mismatch.

And I maintain what I said. If someone wants to make excuses for their inability to play well, and they blame how everything is stacked against them, or such and such combo is cheap, or such and such is OP, I will not play with TFG. Most players in my area are good players that take accountability for their wins and losses.

Personally, if I come up against something my army can't beat in a game, I want to play that person again because it's a challenge. Yeah, I might need to alter my list, but I'm not going to go cry about it.

No real response is needed here but I will throw you a bone. Read your post and then walk over and look in the mirror. If you dont get it repeat the process until you do. It is based on perception and how you look at a situation and how a certain outcome or opinion of something is garnished. Your post is rude and makes you look like a... and really makes you look exactly like that which you claim others are.

Tomb King wrote:I believe dark angels psychic hood is unlimited range.

DIP! Yeah, you passed the test TK. I intentionally left that one out to see if anyone was paying attention.

pretre wrote:

Tomb King wrote:I believe dark angels psychic hood is unlimited range.

DIP! Yeah, you passed the test TK. I intentionally left that one out to see if anyone was paying attention.

Um tk was a smidge late. It was already brought up.

Draigo wrote:

pretre wrote:

Tomb King wrote:I believe dark angels psychic hood is unlimited range.

DIP! Yeah, you passed the test TK. I intentionally left that one out to see if anyone was paying attention.

Um tk was a smidge late. It was already brought up.

Awww, sunova... Sorry Dok, my bad. TK, your test passing is removed. Dok, has passed the test instead.

pretre wrote:

Draigo wrote:

pretre wrote:

Tomb King wrote:I believe dark angels psychic hood is unlimited range.

DIP! Yeah, you passed the test TK. I intentionally left that one out to see if anyone was paying attention.

Um tk was a smidge late. It was already brought up.

Awww, sunova... Sorry Dok, my bad. TK, your test passing is removed. Dok, has passed the test instead.

Ya i totally got . A shame I like passing test. ... I even have a dark angels army.

Tomb King wrote:Ya i totally got . A shame I like passing test. ... I even have a dark angels army.

Makes sense... I think that the Interwebs says DA are bad too.

Draigo wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:I don't disagree that psychic powers are powerful and that all races should have two of the following three things: psychic defense, offense and counters.

I disagree with your earlier, untrue, assertions that no one but IoM has defense, etc so on.

Re: WR, you have to use that unit plus however other units in your army to get them under 50% and hope they are near a board edge since it only lasts for that player turn. And hope they don't have some regroup shenanigans. It isn't foolproof or overpowered. Good, yes.

I disagree with the presumption that all races should be forced to utilize psychic defense to be competitive. I shouldn't be forced into an offensive librarian in every marine build just to counter something like backfield fortitude. That creates a situation wherein a significant investment of points is pressed into a mandatory component. If every marine army has to spend ~300 points on a librarian and supporting elements to counter the direct threat of GK (and GK only) psychic spam then it's a poor situation in the meta. It increases the prevalence of modular segmentation in army creation (you can already see it happen due to the metal box meta) and it makes for a less diverse playing field.

What makes it terrible is that players are essentially forced into the concept of modular in built psychic defense blocs in all lists specifically because of a single overprevalent and metabreaking army. That implies something beyond simple "preparedness". It implies that the meta for the game had/has to change specifically to counter a type of threat that didn't previously exist and which seems to trump most others.

Thats like saying I shouldnt be forced to take psyfleman because an IG player sits in a corner and shoots.

Thats correct. It is. Because guard mech is also metabreaking and kind of stupid. If guard mech and GK pally spam lists weren't universally viable and plainly superior to standard all comers lists tournaments would be a lot more varied and a lot more enjoyable. Blood angels and necrons would be all over the place. Tyranids wouldn't have to hide in an abandoned Guatemala prison hoping sixth comes soon. Daemons wouldn't feel like their tournament results are purely based on the number of gray knight players that they face.

A good metagame has a lot of variety. One that is damaged has universal trends (mech spam) and tends to distill to a few monobuilds. This is a visible effect in almost any game system and it's easy to see in this one.

Nevermind.,..

itsonlyme wrote:Actually your not forced into taking anything, I guess it depends if you see the value of other abilities and units.

Thats correct, no one is forcing you to attempt to make an army that is viable in competitive play. Such an attempt does in fact force a few things by it's nature though.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Draigo wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:I don't disagree that psychic powers are powerful and that all races should have two of the following three things: psychic defense, offense and counters.

I disagree with your earlier, untrue, assertions that no one but IoM has defense, etc so on.

Re: WR, you have to use that unit plus however other units in your army to get them under 50% and hope they are near a board edge since it only lasts for that player turn. And hope they don't have some regroup shenanigans. It isn't foolproof or overpowered. Good, yes.

I disagree with the presumption that all races should be forced to utilize psychic defense to be competitive. I shouldn't be forced into an offensive librarian in every marine build just to counter something like backfield fortitude. That creates a situation wherein a significant investment of points is pressed into a mandatory component. If every marine army has to spend ~300 points on a librarian and supporting elements to counter the direct threat of GK (and GK only) psychic spam then it's a poor situation in the meta. It increases the prevalence of modular segmentation in army creation (you can already see it happen due to the metal box meta) and it makes for a less diverse playing field.

What makes it terrible is that players are essentially forced into the concept of modular in built psychic defense blocs in all lists specifically because of a single overprevalent and metabreaking army. That implies something beyond simple "preparedness". It implies that the meta for the game had/has to change specifically to counter a type of threat that didn't previously exist and which seems to trump most others.

Thats like saying I shouldnt be forced to take psyfleman because an IG player sits in a corner and shoots.

Thats correct. It is. Because guard mech is also metabreaking and kind of stupid. If guard mech and GK pally spam lists weren't universally viable and plainly superior to standard all comers lists tournaments would be a lot more varied and a lot more enjoyable. Blood angels and necrons would be all over the place. Tyranids wouldn't have to hide in an abandoned Guatemala prison hoping sixth comes soon. Daemons wouldn't feel like their tournament results are purely based on the number of gray knight players that they face.

A good metagame has a lot of variety. One that is damaged has universal trends and tends to distill to a few monobuilds. This is a visible effect in almost any game system and it's easy to see in this one.

The difference between GK and IG are the following:
Cost aka more easily obtained (IG cost you easilly 500+ to get competitive the higher up builds might even close in on 1000)
Psychic Defense in GK (This is the one real drawback for IG... especially foot list)
Fortitude giving vehicles the ability to ignore shaken/stunned results
Chimera's which people argue are OP are available to both armies
Guard have more template weapons but GK can send out more high strength shooting while still having competitive builds.

Guard can be broken as well. I know this, I have played games where my opponents could not win if I played my army correctly. ie... nids loosing all of the MC's so I can sit in my vehicles all game etc... However, the GK>IG is still apparent when compared to what can be done with and against the army.

@TK: You missed the range advantage. It was a good quick summary though.

Odds of psychic power working against a psychic hood:

LD 10
21 possibilities out of 36: 58.3%

LD 9
15 out of 36: 41.7%

LD 8
10 out of 36: 27.8%

@Tomb King

One thing to also remember. IG has been doing it since their latest book dropped and continue to heavy influence tournaments as much as any gk list.

Also shot saturation ig can put into a target is obscene. I don't care if you have shrouding or not thats a dead storm raider or land raider. Chimera is a tough call because those dont really play a factor in most lists aside from coteaz.

The only army who can shoot with IG is de and they cause a whole new kinda wth.

DE, IG and long fang spam cause everyone shift things in their list because you cant just sit and let them shoot you.

pretre wrote:@TK: You missed the range advantage. It was a good quick summary though.

Yes I suppose IG can bring up to 240" range.... like that would ever be needed... or even unlimited range with the deathstrike.
IG player: Ide like to shoot table three...
Players on table 3: JUDGE!

Draigo wrote:@Tomb King

One thing to also remember. IG has been doing it since their latest book dropped and continue to heavy influence tournaments as much as any gk list.

Also shot saturation ig can put into a target is obscene. I don't care if you have shrouding or not thats a dead storm raider or land raider. Chimera is a tough call because those dont really play a factor in most lists aside from coteaz.

The only army who can shoot with IG is de and they cause a whole new kinda wth.

DE, IG and long fang spam cause everyone shift things in their list because you cant just sit and let them shoot you.

Dark eldar can really put the hurt on someone but they are just as bad as any alpha strike army. If things go bad well then they go bad. Dark eldar have no psychic defense and have no armor value above 11. That means a heavy bolter is worth its weight in gold vs them or even worse dirt cheap pysback with TL HB.

The three powerhouse armies are SW, IG, and GW.

At the very least, they are all top tier.

SW: Due to low points costs on units, powerful psyker ability (JOTWW), good anti psyker

IG: Lots of high powered, cheap mech, powerful psyker Ability (Weaken resolve)

GK: Lots of high powered, cheap S8 shots from psyfilemen, good powers, main reason for power being FOC shenanigans with purifiers.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:The three powerhouse armies are SW, IG, and GW.

Totally lol'ed!

pretre wrote:

itsonlyme wrote:Actually your not forced into taking anything, I guess it depends if you see the value of other abilities and units.

Exactly, I think that all armies should have some form of access to those things. Just as all armies should have some sort of access to anti-vehicle, anti-infantry, blahdeblah. The quality, cost and desire to take it will change depending on the list.

Well I think all armies could use some sort of commander like the GM who opens up new tactical options, Its something I really think the chapter master is really missing out on :( I do think a lot of grey knight players dismiss to much of the book without giving said units much thought, just look at Draigo's comments

itsonlyme wrote:

pretre wrote:

itsonlyme wrote:Actually your not forced into taking anything, I guess it depends if you see the value of other abilities and units.

Exactly, I think that all armies should have some form of access to those things. Just as all armies should have some sort of access to anti-vehicle, anti-infantry, blahdeblah. The quality, cost and desire to take it will change depending on the list.

Well I think all armies could use some sort of commander like the GM who opens up new tactical options, Its something I really think the chapter master is really missing out on :( I do think a lot of grey knight players dismiss to much of the book without giving said units much thought, just look at Draigo's comments

Well the deal with strike and some of the less popular is you get to hear about filling your list with warp quake, take purifiers then listen to how broken they are, etc. Plus gm are very good though you can take them for lower pt games that Draigo is just too much. But then you hear about peoples dislike of rad grenades and the wargear they can take. You really can't make anyone that happy right now. So no I have thought about them but I do get tired of the "gk is op" talks at the club.

Draigo wrote:Well the deal with strike and some of the less popular is you get to hear about filling your list with warp quake, take purifiers then listen to how broken they are, etc. Plus gm are very good though you can take them for lower pt games that Draigo is just too much. But then you hear about peoples dislike of rad grenades and the wargear they can take. You really can't make anyone that happy right now. So no I have thought about them but I do get tired of the "gk is op" talks at the club.

See you missing the whole point of strikes, because marine and space wolf players will moan about how broken they are because they are only a few points more than a GH or TM yet have power weapons and stormbolters, you know what you can say "well I could always just use purifiers", its the same with a GM vs Draigo "if you like, I could use Draigo instead", trust me, it reduces the moaning about your army by half people do moan alot about my outflanking strike squads and venerable dreadnought, bleh, just a whole lot of moaning, mind you one of those people had never heard of the combat tactics rule and plays space marines

itsonlyme wrote:

Draigo wrote:Well the deal with strike and some of the less popular is you get to hear about filling your list with warp quake, take purifiers then listen to how broken they are, etc. Plus gm are very good though you can take them for lower pt games that Draigo is just too much. But then you hear about peoples dislike of rad grenades and the wargear they can take. You really can't make anyone that happy right now. So no I have thought about them but I do get tired of the "gk is op" talks at the club.

See you missing the whole point of strikes, because marine and space wolf players will moan about how broken they are because they are only a few points more than a GH or TM yet have power weapons and stormbolters, you know what you can say "well I could always just use purifiers", its the same with a GM vs Draigo "if you like, I could use Draigo instead", trust me, it reduces the moaning about your army by half people do moan alot about my outflanking strike squads and venerable dreadnought, bleh, just a whole lot of moaning, mind you one of those people had never heard of the combat tactics rule and plays space marines

Typically in non competitive games I run a mordrak/dk list. I don't play henchman at all while saving draigo and crowe for tourneys. Ive been messing around with hybrid lists as well after I tried out a gm list tonite vs a leafblower ig.

pretre wrote:

Draigo wrote:

pretre wrote:

Tomb King wrote:I believe dark angels psychic hood is unlimited range.

DIP! Yeah, you passed the test TK. I intentionally left that one out to see if anyone was paying attention.

Um tk was a smidge late. It was already brought up.

Awww, sunova... Sorry Dok, my bad. TK, your test passing is removed. Dok, has passed the test instead.

Woo hoo!

Draigo wrote:

itsonlyme wrote:

Draigo wrote:Well the deal with strike and some of the less popular is you get to hear about filling your list with warp quake, take purifiers then listen to how broken they are, etc. Plus gm are very good though you can take them for lower pt games that Draigo is just too much. But then you hear about peoples dislike of rad grenades and the wargear they can take. You really can't make anyone that happy right now. So no I have thought about them but I do get tired of the "gk is op" talks at the club.

See you missing the whole point of strikes, because marine and space wolf players will moan about how broken they are because they are only a few points more than a GH or TM yet have power weapons and stormbolters, you know what you can say "well I could always just use purifiers", its the same with a GM vs Draigo "if you like, I could use Draigo instead", trust me, it reduces the moaning about your army by half people do moan alot about my outflanking strike squads and venerable dreadnought, bleh, just a whole lot of moaning, mind you one of those people had never heard of the combat tactics rule and plays space marines

Typically in non competitive games I run a mordrak/dk list. I don't play henchman at all while saving draigo and crowe for tourneys. Ive been messing around with hybrid lists as well after I tried out a gm list tonite vs a leafblower ig.

Well been playing with alot of lists myself, I have been thinking about taking a Draigo Paladin + strikes list to a local tournament or a more mixed list, can't really decided myself, I refuse to take the purifier filth list

itsonlyme wrote:

Draigo wrote:

itsonlyme wrote:

Draigo wrote:Well the deal with strike and some of the less popular is you get to hear about filling your list with warp quake, take purifiers then listen to how broken they are, etc. Plus gm are very good though you can take them for lower pt games that Draigo is just too much. But then you hear about peoples dislike of rad grenades and the wargear they can take. You really can't make anyone that happy right now. So no I have thought about them but I do get tired of the "gk is op" talks at the club.

See you missing the whole point of strikes, because marine and space wolf players will moan about how broken they are because they are only a few points more than a GH or TM yet have power weapons and stormbolters, you know what you can say "well I could always just use purifiers", its the same with a GM vs Draigo "if you like, I could use Draigo instead", trust me, it reduces the moaning about your army by half people do moan alot about my outflanking strike squads and venerable dreadnought, bleh, just a whole lot of moaning, mind you one of those people had never heard of the combat tactics rule and plays space marines

Typically in non competitive games I run a mordrak/dk list. I don't play henchman at all while saving draigo and crowe for tourneys. Ive been messing around with hybrid lists as well after I tried out a gm list tonite vs a leafblower ig.

Well been playing with alot of lists myself, I have been thinking about taking a Draigo Paladin + strikes list to a local tournament or a more mixed list, can't really decided myself, I refuse to take the purifier filth list

Draigowing reeeaaaallllly isn't any less shameful .

ShumaGorath wrote:

itsonlyme wrote:
Well been playing with alot of lists myself, I have been thinking about taking a Draigo Paladin + strikes list to a local tournament or a more mixed list, can't really decided myself, I refuse to take the purifier filth list

Draigowing reeeaaaallllly isn't any less shameful .

Pure 100% pallies with only the (it seems) mandetory psyflemen isn't as OTT as say a draigowing that's being supported by psyflemen, strikes/intercepters and adding in the filthy grenades.

Draigo and Crowe lists are pretty bad, just throwing that one out there. They are gimmicks that rely on your opponent not knowing what to do/not having a good army in order to win.

All the tears over these 2 characters really bother me, because it shows just how many people dont actually understand 40k. 30 pt tac marines, and 70 pt terminators are not effective armies. If you want to see what the top end of the grey knight build is, look at coteaz lists.

Eidolon wrote:Draigo and Crowe lists are pretty bad, just throwing that one out there. They are gimmicks that rely on your opponent not knowing what to do/not having a good army in order to win.

All the tears over these 2 characters really bother me, because it shows just how many people dont actually understand 40k. 30 pt tac marines, and 70 pt terminators are not effective armies. If you want to see what the top end of the grey knight build is, look at coteaz lists.

agreed

that and i have yet to meet a single grey knights list i couldn't beat with 3 Vindicators

Eidolon wrote:Draigo and Crowe lists are pretty bad, just throwing that one out there. They are gimmicks that rely on your opponent not knowing what to do/not having a good army in order to win.

All the tears over these 2 characters really bother me, because it shows just how many people dont actually understand 40k. 30 pt tac marines, and 70 pt terminators are not effective armies. If you want to see what the top end of the grey knight build is, look at coteaz lists.

Draigowing is unbeatable for a fair few army builds, the tears are fairly legitimate. Next time you manage to dent it with DOA BAs, tyranid big bugs, Berzerker rhino rush, any codex marine list that doesn't feature vulkan, footdar, or any number of other lists please do share. There are plenty of rock paper scissors scenarios in this game, but draigowing is cheap and mindless. It either wins flawlessly or the opponant has enough mechanized ap2 with good range to tear it down quickly. Understanding 40k is meaningless when it takes over 350 bolter shots to kill a single paladin (good golly wound allocation!) and most infantry models are equipped with bolter equivalents. With understanding comes the tacit realization that sometimes 40k is unbalanced and stupid.

Whether or not those lists are optimal doesn't change the fact that people will run them. I think one of the things that people have an issue with is that a GK list can run any one of the three "main" GK lists, and other armies have to be able to deal with that.

While it's true that any all-comers army should be aware of the possibility of facing other lists from many other armies that will be similar in nature to dais GK lists, the fact that GK have all three (effectively, the very rough equivalent of Death Wing, Razor Spam, and IG gunline) makes many people feel that they are overpowered.

I'd certainly say that they have a powerful codex, in fact it's probably second only to IG, but they are not necessarily overpowered. I think 40k over the course of 5th ed is a lot more balanced than it has ever been.

marmaduke wrote:

Eidolon wrote:Draigo and Crowe lists are pretty bad, just throwing that one out there. They are gimmicks that rely on your opponent not knowing what to do/not having a good army in order to win.

All the tears over these 2 characters really bother me, because it shows just how many people dont actually understand 40k. 30 pt tac marines, and 70 pt terminators are not effective armies. If you want to see what the top end of the grey knight build is, look at coteaz lists.

agreed

that and i have yet to meet a single grey knights list i couldn't beat with 3 Vindicators

I have yet to see one that I believe could lose to that.

marmaduke wrote:

Eidolon wrote:Draigo and Crowe lists are pretty bad, just throwing that one out there. They are gimmicks that rely on your opponent not knowing what to do/not having a good army in order to win.

All the tears over these 2 characters really bother me, because it shows just how many people dont actually understand 40k. 30 pt tac marines, and 70 pt terminators are not effective armies. If you want to see what the top end of the grey knight build is, look at coteaz lists.

agreed

that and i have yet to meet a single grey knights list i couldn't beat with 3 Vindicators

Ya but how will 3 vindicators do against other armies like guard, or vulcan marines, blood angels, dark eldar, or even eldar.

Kitzz wrote:Whether or not those lists are optimal doesn't change the fact that people will run them. I think one of the things that people have an issue with is that a GK list can run any one of the three "main" GK lists, and other armies have to be able to deal with that.

While it's true that any all-comers army should be aware of the possibility of facing other lists from many other armies that will be similar in nature to dais GK lists, the fact that GK have all three (effectively, the very rough equivalent of Death Wing, Razor Spam, and IG gunline) makes many people feel that they are overpowered.

I'd certainly say that they have a powerful codex, in fact it's probably second only to IG, but they are not necessarily overpowered. I think 40k over the course of 5th ed is a lot more balanced than it has ever been.

I guess opinions may very but have you faced razor spam space wolves? SW > IG < GK. IG is in the running but still lacks those things that put it up there with the others.

Most notably:
Lack of effective combat support
Lack of Psychic Hood
LD 9 psykers for there psychic powers

Dont get me wrong IG are competitive and definitely top tier but by no means are they still the top dog.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Draigowing is unbeatable for a fair few army builds, the tears are fairly legitimate. Next time you manage to dent it with DOA BAs, tyranid big bugs, Berzerker rhino rush, any codex marine list that doesn't feature vulkan, footdar, or any number of other lists please do share. There are plenty of rock paper scissors scenarios in this game, but draigowing is cheap and mindless. It either wins flawlessly or the opponant has enough mechanized ap2 with good range to tear it down quickly. Understanding 40k is meaningless when it takes over 350 bolter shots to kill a single paladin (good golly wound allocation!) and most infantry models are equipped with bolter equivalents. With understanding comes the tacit realization that sometimes 40k is unbalanced and stupid.

next time you manage to dent it with DOA BAs, tyranid big bugs, Berzerker rhino rush, any codex marine list that doesn't feature vulkan, footdar, or any number of other lists please do share

All of those except codex marine lists taht dont feature vulkan are really, really bad. And have been for some time. Nids were bad against wolves and ig from the start, and dark eldar put the nail in their coffin. Berzerker rhino rush has been defunct since what, 4th came out? DOA angels are a gimmick army, and were never good. Footdar is garbage and has been since the release of codex space wolves at the latest.

Heres my list of army archetypes that reliably crush footdar

mech wolves
footwolves
loganwing msu missile wolves
drop wolves
guard of any variety
dark eldar flying circus
dark footdar probably win too
deathwing
90% of vanilla marine lists
DOA blood angels
mech blood angels
hybrid doa/mech blood angels
nid zilla
gaunt carpet nids
stealer shock nids
lash/oblit/plague marine chaos
scarab farm necrons
av13 everywhere necrons
foot immortals everywhere necrons

Clearly, the fact that draigo beats footdar is a valid argument about draigo being broken, and not footdar sucking.

Next time any of those lists you gave me reliably beat 12+vehicle dark eldar, mech ig, mech wolves, mech blood angels, let me know. A pinto cant beat my pontiac in a race, that doesnt mean my pontiac is a racecar.

There are plenty of rock paper scissors scenarios in this game, but draigowing is cheap and mindless.

So like, its a spam army that only beats up on bad lists. This is not the first time this has happened in 40k. Ever heard of green tide?

It either wins flawlessly or the opponant has enough mechanized ap2 with good range to tear it down quickly

You need to be able to put out a lot of S8+ firepower to tear it down. Forcing instant death at first makes torrenting them down a lot faster. Fortunately, most any good army features a lot of ranged S8+ shots. So this shouldnt be an issue, except for bad armies, which lose hard to good lists anyways, so the point is moot.

Understanding 40k is meaningless when it takes over 350 bolter shots to kill a single paladin (good golly wound allocation!) and most infantry models are equipped with bolter equivalents.

Yes, because the only way to kill paladins is through bolters. Not, you know, spamming loads of high strength shots to murder half the unit. And then, suddenly, you only have to do 5 bolter wounds before they start removing guys, instead of 10. This also relies on the false assumption that every paladin will take a single wound before any start dying. If you have a 5 man squad, and 2 are wounded, 3 arent, you put 5 wounds on it with bolter fire, are the guys who are already wounded immune to failing the save? Is it more likely the unwounded guys will roll a 1?

With understanding comes the tacit realization that sometimes 40k is unbalanced and stupid.

Yeah so? This has been going on since the beginning of the game. How many of ye olden neckbeards remember the broken lists that existed in 2nd? What about rhino rush blood angels and chaos in 3rd. What about chaos 3.5? In 4th you had assault cannon spam marines, nidzilla, lash chaos, and mechdar. Does anyone remember the nightmare that were clown cars? Or the green tide list at the end of 4th? And how good that was?

Why are the arguments youve given so bad? Why is it that, any army with the ability to deal with the standard meta of 'tankstankstankstanks' also able to handle crowe and draigo lists easily? Why is 40k stupid? Do you have good arguments to back up your claims here, cause I havent really seen any.

Kitzz wrote:Whether or not those lists are optimal doesn't change the fact that people will run them. I think one of the things that people have an issue with is that a GK list can run any one of the three "main" GK lists, and other armies have to be able to deal with that.

While it's true that any all-comers army should be aware of the possibility of facing other lists from many other armies that will be similar in nature to dais GK lists, the fact that GK have all three (effectively, the very rough equivalent of Death Wing, Razor Spam, and IG gunline) makes many people feel that they are overpowered.

I'd certainly say that they have a powerful codex, in fact it's probably second only to IG, but they are not necessarily overpowered. I think 40k over the course of 5th ed is a lot more balanced than it has ever been.

Purifiers is basically coteaz with less tanks, so if you can handle coteaz you can handle purifiers. If you handle tanks, you need lots of high strength firepower, which also destroys paladins. So basically, if you can beat coteaz you can beat the other 2. Fortunately, coteaz is a list based around loads of transports, so, uh, its kinda like ig, wolves, dark eldar, mech blood angels. Lists that have been doing well for years now. So, if you cant handle lots of av rolling around, you cant handle grey knights. But this is ok, because you cant handle a lot of the other big tournament lists.

Eidolon wrote:

Yes, because the only way to kill paladins is through bolters. Not, you know, spamming loads of high strength shots to murder half the unit.

I play a non cheesy Vanilla list not Space Wolves, I'm forced to take loads of bolters for my puny tactical marines! Where am I supposed to get "loads" of high strength shots from? Vindis fire once, devastators are crazy over priced and I still only get 4 shots for 230-260 points, Preds/Dreds hardly fire loads either!

Seriously I agree with Shuma, show me a vanilla list that's not uber cheese that could put out loads of high strength shots.

You need Space Wolves for that right?

mattyrm wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

Yes, because the only way to kill paladins is through bolters. Not, you know, spamming loads of high strength shots to murder half the unit.

I play a non cheesy Vanilla list not Space Wolves, I'm forced to take loads of bolters for my puny tactical marines! Where am I supposed to get "loads" of high strength shots from? Vindis fire once, devastators are crazy over priced and I still only get 4 shots for 230-260 points, Preds/Dreds hardly fire loads either!

Seriously I agree with Shuma, show me a vanilla list that's not uber cheese that could put out loads of high strength shots.

You need Space Wolves for that right?

If your vanilla marines arent putting out a lot of high strength shots, they arent very competitive then are they? And whats a cheesy list? Do you mean competitive army designed to win against anything? If you dont run one of these kinds of lists, than why care? If you just show up to push around the models you think are pretty and have fun, then winning and losing shouldnt be an issue. If it is, then you should be playing competitively, in which case concepts like cheese need to be accepted and embraced in order for you to do well.

Honestly, I feel like the hard counter to Paladins is to (of all the things) get them into melee with hammernators. Granted, I realize that with rad grenades ad nauseum, that's not always a good idea, but probably how I would do it.

And lascannons. Also lascannons.

Eidolon wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Draigowing is unbeatable for a fair few army builds, the tears are fairly legitimate. Next time you manage to dent it with DOA BAs, tyranid big bugs, Berzerker rhino rush, any codex marine list that doesn't feature vulkan, footdar, or any number of other lists please do share. There are plenty of rock paper scissors scenarios in this game, but draigowing is cheap and mindless. It either wins flawlessly or the opponant has enough mechanized ap2 with good range to tear it down quickly. Understanding 40k is meaningless when it takes over 350 bolter shots to kill a single paladin (good golly wound allocation!) and most infantry models are equipped with bolter equivalents. With understanding comes the tacit realization that sometimes 40k is unbalanced and stupid.

next time you manage to dent it with DOA BAs, tyranid big bugs, Berzerker rhino rush, any codex marine list that doesn't feature vulkan, footdar, or any number of other lists please do share

All of those except codex marine lists taht dont feature vulkan are really, really bad. And have been for some time. Nids were bad against wolves and ig from the start, and dark eldar put the nail in their coffin. Berzerker rhino rush has been defunct since what, 4th came out? DOA angels are a gimmick army, and were never good. Footdar is garbage and has been since the release of codex space wolves at the latest.

Heres my list of army archetypes that reliably crush footdar

mech wolves
footwolves
loganwing msu missile wolves
drop wolves
guard of any variety
dark eldar flying circus
dark footdar probably win too
deathwing
90% of vanilla marine lists
DOA blood angels
mech blood angels
hybrid doa/mech blood angels
nid zilla
gaunt carpet nids
stealer shock nids
lash/oblit/plague marine chaos
scarab farm necrons
av13 everywhere necrons
foot immortals everywhere necrons

Clearly, the fact that draigo beats footdar is a valid argument about draigo being broken, and not footdar sucking.

Next time any of those lists you gave me reliably beat 12+vehicle dark eldar, mech ig, mech wolves, mech blood angels, let me know. A pinto cant beat my pontiac in a race, that doesnt mean my pontiac is a racecar.

There are plenty of rock paper scissors scenarios in this game, but draigowing is cheap and mindless.

So like, its a spam army that only beats up on bad lists. This is not the first time this has happened in 40k. Ever heard of green tide?

It either wins flawlessly or the opponant has enough mechanized ap2 with good range to tear it down quickly

You need to be able to put out a lot of S8+ firepower to tear it down. Forcing instant death at first makes torrenting them down a lot faster. Fortunately, most any good army features a lot of ranged S8+ shots. So this shouldnt be an issue, except for bad armies, which lose hard to good lists anyways, so the point is moot.

Understanding 40k is meaningless when it takes over 350 bolter shots to kill a single paladin (good golly wound allocation!) and most infantry models are equipped with bolter equivalents.

Yes, because the only way to kill paladins is through bolters. Not, you know, spamming loads of high strength shots to murder half the unit. And then, suddenly, you only have to do 5 bolter wounds before they start removing guys, instead of 10. This also relies on the false assumption that every paladin will take a single wound before any start dying. If you have a 5 man squad, and 2 are wounded, 3 arent, you put 5 wounds on it with bolter fire, are the guys who are already wounded immune to failing the save? Is it more likely the unwounded guys will roll a 1?

With understanding comes the tacit realization that sometimes 40k is unbalanced and stupid.

Yeah so? This has been going on since the beginning of the game. How many of ye olden neckbeards remember the broken lists that existed in 2nd? What about rhino rush blood angels and chaos in 3rd. What about chaos 3.5? In 4th you had assault cannon spam marines, nidzilla, lash chaos, and mechdar. Does anyone remember the nightmare that were clown cars? Or the green tide list at the end of 4th? And how good that was?

Why are the arguments youve given so bad? Why is it that, any army with the ability to deal with the standard meta of 'tankstankstankstanks' also able to handle crowe and draigo lists easily? Why is 40k stupid? Do you have good arguments to back up your claims here, cause I havent really seen any.

Kitzz wrote:Whether or not those lists are optimal doesn't change the fact that people will run them. I think one of the things that people have an issue with is that a GK list can run any one of the three "main" GK lists, and other armies have to be able to deal with that.

While it's true that any all-comers army should be aware of the possibility of facing other lists from many other armies that will be similar in nature to dais GK lists, the fact that GK have all three (effectively, the very rough equivalent of Death Wing, Razor Spam, and IG gunline) makes many people feel that they are overpowered.

I'd certainly say that they have a powerful codex, in fact it's probably second only to IG, but they are not necessarily overpowered. I think 40k over the course of 5th ed is a lot more balanced than it has ever been.

Purifiers is basically coteaz with less tanks, so if you can handle coteaz you can handle purifiers. If you handle tanks, you need lots of high strength firepower, which also destroys paladins. So basically, if you can beat coteaz you can beat the other 2. Fortunately, coteaz is a list based around loads of transports, so, uh, its kinda like ig, wolves, dark eldar, mech blood angels. Lists that have been doing well for years now. So, if you cant handle lots of av rolling around, you cant handle grey knights. But this is ok, because you cant handle a lot of the other big tournament lists.

For the record rhino rush berezerkers were still viable all the way up until grey knights hit. Now the khorne marines gets laughed at by I6 halberds. I actually put away my CSM because they were too easy to win with. Now that grey knights are here I guess I could bring them out more often. At 2500 points I have only ever lost 1 game with my CSM and that was to a judge's buddy if you catch the drift there(its a game of inch's).

daedalus wrote:Honestly, I feel like the hard counter to Paladins is to (of all the things) get them into melee with hammernators. Granted, I realize that with rad grenades ad nauseum, that's not always a good idea, but probably how I would do it.

And lascannons. Also lascannons.

That is exactly why I have 3 lascannons on my inf squads and was thinking about a 4th. Also I am digging the hat for the llama

I guess opinions may very but have you faced razor spam space wolves? SW > IG < GK. IG is in the running but still lacks those things that put it up there with the others.

Most notably:
Lack of effective combat support
Lack of Psychic Hood
LD 9 psykers for there psychic powers

Dont get me wrong IG are competitive and definitely top tier but by no means are they still the top dog.

Yes, they are the top dog. IG should have no problem beating space wolves and should have a slight uphill advantage against henchmen GK. Play against some experienced IG players that don't care about army cost and I think you'll very quickly realize that they are still the best.

Also, consider the amount of LoS blocking terrain on an average board when you do so.

Space wolves most certainly are not the best. I think that GK probably have the best codex, but in this meta, IG is king. Look at the entire meta, and you realize that mechspam defines it. Look to where that definition comes from, and you find IG. I'm not saying they're far and away the best, but they are the best.

Tomb King wrote:

For the record rhino rush berezerkers were still viable all the way up until grey knights hit. Now the khorne marines gets laughed at by I6 halberds. I actually put away my CSM because they were too easy to win with. Now that grey knights are here I guess I could bring them out more often. At 2500 points I have only ever lost 1 game with my CSM and that was to a judge's buddy if you catch the drift there(its a game of inch's).

So uh, nobody ever shot your rhinos open as they tried to cross the board and gunned down your berzerkers? This is how people were winning against other mech marine armies. This sounds like some serious n00bslaying to me.

All of those except codex marine lists taht dont feature vulkan are really, really bad.

DOA BAs isn't bad, it just dies in the meta because grey knights exist. That also wasn't the point of my post. The point of my post was to list armies that literally have no viable path to either win or tie.

Nids were bad against wolves and ig from the start, and dark eldar put the nail in their coffin.

GKs put the nail in that coffin, they have a significantly higher tournament entry rate.

Berzerker rhino rush has been defunct since what, 4th came out?

Not particularly, it's actually pretty good against some fairly popular wolf and IG builds. It's not super high tier, but again, that wasn't the point of my post.

DOA angels are a gimmick army, and were never good.

Because GKs exist. Not because it's bad. It's a good list against many popular IG and wolf lists and it does well in games against the rest of the non GK field.

Footdar is garbage and has been since the release of codex space wolves at the latest.

Footdars resurgence came after that and has won major events, so I don't know what to tell you beyond the fact that I think you're getting your info wrong.

Clearly, the fact that draigo beats footdar is a valid argument about draigo being broken, and not footdar sucking.

I know it's already been pretty well shown so far in this thread but you're really really bad at forming well thought out arguments. Stop it with the strawmen dorothy.

So like, its a spam army that only beats up on bad lists. This is not the first time this has happened in 40k. Ever heard of green tide?

You didn't read what I posted correctly. Go back and try again.

You need to be able to put out a lot of S8+ firepower to tear it down. Forcing instant death at first makes torrenting them down a lot faster. Fortunately, most any good army features a lot of ranged S8+ shots.

You need a lot of str8 ap2, not just str8. A smart GK player will just walk forward and obliterate your guns if you lack ap2 and they'll stand in a shrouded ruin that their techmarine bolstered for 2+ cover while killing your plasma squads with psyfledreads if required otherwise.

Unless you can make them regret walking across the board then you're losing. Not a lot of armies can actually do that. Most that can are extremely KP heavy and those armies auto lose in one third of missions against draigowing.

So this shouldnt be an issue, except for bad armies, which lose hard to good lists anyways, so the point is moot.

AKA "Space wolves and IG feature a lot of str8 shots so draigowing is lame and easy to beat". Thanks. You're clearly very helpful here. Great understanding of the metagame.

Yes, because the only way to kill paladins is through bolters. Not, you know, spamming loads of high strength shots to murder half the unit. And then, suddenly, you only have to do 5 bolter wounds before they start removing guys, instead of 10.

AKA "All I play with and against are space wolves, GKs, and IG". Not every army has longfangs or good mechspam. Not every army in power armor is a space wolf one.

This also relies on the false assumption that every paladin will take a single wound before any start dying. If you have a 5 man squad, and 2 are wounded, 3 arent, you put 5 wounds on it with bolter fire, are the guys who are already wounded immune to failing the save? Is it more likely the unwounded guys will roll a 1?

FNP means that they have to roll a 1 followed by a 1-3. Thats a one in 12 chance. That requires 2 bolter shots for that wound meaning 24 hitting shots. That requires 36 shots. Congrats, you just fired two full tactical squads. Maybe you'll get an already wounded guy once. Or maybe, just maybe, you did 4 wounds to the same guy and none to the others thus losing half your wounds to wound allocation.

Clearly thats not still idiotic.

But hey, it's ok, my blood angel, dark angel, black templar, eldar, dark eldar, necron, chaos, and demon long fangs can still shoot their missiles from far away and rely on volume. Clearly those armies have those.

Yeah so? This has been going on since the beginning of the game. How many of ye olden neckbeards remember the broken lists that existed in 2nd? What about rhino rush blood angels and chaos in 3rd. What about chaos 3.5? In 4th you had assault cannon spam marines, nidzilla, lash chaos, and mechdar. Does anyone remember the nightmare that were clown cars? Or the green tide list at the end of 4th? And how good that was?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Why are the arguments youve given so bad? Why is it that, any army with the ability to deal with the standard meta of 'tankstankstankstanks' also able to handle crowe and draigo lists easily?

They're bad because you seem at a basic level to be unable to comprehend them. You've been assembling poorly thought out strawmen for many pages now. You practically have an army of them. My argument was that people hate draigowing because it automatically wins with no recourse against many lists. It's not even close to fun to play against. It's boring looking, thematically stupid, and utterly unbeatable by any marine army that relies on close combat or short range fire support (which is most of them, but I guess you live on fenris).

My point wasn't that it was unbeatable or that it conquered the top tables. Just that it was a fething chore to see accross the table and very demoralizing for anyone not powergaming the power3.

Eidolon wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

For the record rhino rush berezerkers were still viable all the way up until grey knights hit. Now the khorne marines gets laughed at by I6 halberds. I actually put away my CSM because they were too easy to win with. Now that grey knights are here I guess I could bring them out more often. At 2500 points I have only ever lost 1 game with my CSM and that was to a judge's buddy if you catch the drift there(its a game of inch's).

So uh, nobody ever shot your rhinos open as they tried to cross the board and gunned down your berzerkers? This is how people were winning against other mech marine armies. This sounds like some serious n00bslaying to me.

At the second round of ard boyz last year I was shot out of 3 of my transports on turn 1. I foot slogged my way to a massacre. Its how you play them. I could still rofl curb stomp just about any army with my csm except grey knights. I went 25-0 with csm at 2500 before finally losing to a wedding .

ALSO NOTE: IG have the most KP out of just about every army. For my argument listed above why they are not number 1. Play a DoW, annihilation mission then come talk to me.

ShumaGorath wrote:

They're bad because you seem at a basic level to be unable to comprehend them. You've been assembling poorly thought out strawmen for many pages now. You practically have an army of them. My argument was that people hate draigowing because it automatically wins with no recourse against many lists. It's not even close to fun to play against. It's boring looking, thematically stupid, and utterly unbeatable by any marine army that relies on close combat or short range fire support (which is most of them, but I guess you live on fenris).

My point wasn't that it was unbeatable or that it conquered the top tables. Just that it was a fething chore to see accross the table and very demoralizing for anyone not powergaming the power3.

So uh, im stupid, and have been assembling a lot of strawmen arguments for what, 1 page, which somehow is now many pages? How many times have I posted in this thread? 5? Yes, draigowing autowins against certain armies. But so do a lot of other lists. Boring looking, thematically stupid, are invalid arguments. I thinks that every ork army, is boring and stupid, I honestly do. I have no issue playing against orks however, and dont make threads to moan about them.

My point wasn't that it was unbeatable or that it conquered the top tables. Just that it was a fething chore to see accross the table and very demoralizing for anyone not powergaming the power3.

Oh ok, so it was just a thread created to moan about an army of toy soldiers, but has nothing to do with actual competitive gaming. Guess ill quit wasting my time here then, and put you on ignore

Tomb King wrote:

Eidolon wrote:
At the second round of ard boyz last year I was shot out of 3 of my transports on turn 1. I foot slogged my way to a massacre. Its how you play them. I could still rofl curb stomp just about any army with my csm except grey knights. I went 25-0 with csm at 2500 before finally losing to a wedding .

ALSO NOTE: IG have the most KP out of just about every army. For my argument listed above why they are not number 1. Play a DoW, annihilation mission then come talk to me.

What were you playing round 2 that only shot 3 transports down, and didnt bother stunning/immobilizing the rest of them? And that also let zerkers footslog well against it? I am still confused by this. How does zerker spam beat nidzilla, flying deldar, or mech ig? I am seriously intrigued, not trying to troll.