LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Dok wrote:

Redaxe13 wrote:errrr... 90% of people here who are saying GK aren't op are GK players. I think this thread may be a LITTLE biased.. lol I only play Demons and I don't think they're that op.. Not like unstoppable OP. Maybe slightly broken. I dunno, I'll decide once I play as GK I'd feel ok calling them op then

I feel that 90% of the people saying GK are OP in this thread haven't played against GK.

The GK players that are saying GK arnt oP, check their army lists....

Anyone can build a totally ineffective list and say they lose all the time hence not OP.

But what OP should encompass is what abusive capabilities can it have.

Hard to use that psyker power if the nid player spams mc and SotW outside of pally or Termies with banner which mean no hammer hand etc. So not that easy to insta gib Fexes if the nid player plans for psykers. Plus Doom can be a hassle if the nid player positions the spore properly. Just speaking from exp never take the nids that lightly with the new and improved shadow.

Why do you insist and persist on needing Hammer Hand to kill monstrous creatures? str 4 can wound even up to T7, as long as 6 is rolled.
GK will mostly strike first, hitting on 3s, which means 13.3 hits, which means 2 wounds gets through.
Nemesis Force Weapon, DEAD monstrous creature.

Well it depends on your squad size and weapons. 5 strike, purifier, and non terminator will die if charged by a trygon. It's not as easy as one wound one dead. You have to wound and make the 3d6 psy test as well as wound.

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Dok wrote:

Redaxe13 wrote:errrr... 90% of people here who are saying GK aren't op are GK players. I think this thread may be a LITTLE biased.. lol I only play Demons and I don't think they're that op.. Not like unstoppable OP. Maybe slightly broken. I dunno, I'll decide once I play as GK I'd feel ok calling them op then

I feel that 90% of the people saying GK are OP in this thread haven't played against GK.

The GK players that are saying GK arnt oP, check their army lists....

Anyone can build a totally ineffective list and say they lose all the time hence not OP.

But what OP should encompass is what abusive capabilities can it have.

Hard to use that psyker power if the nid player spams mc and SotW outside of pally or Termies with banner which mean no hammer hand etc. So not that easy to insta gib Fexes if the nid player plans for psykers. Plus Doom can be a hassle if the nid player positions the spore properly. Just speaking from exp never take the nids that lightly with the new and improved shadow.

Why do you insist and persist on needing Hammer Hand to kill monstrous creatures? str 4 can wound even up to T7, as long as 6 is rolled.
GK will mostly strike first, hitting on 3s, which means 13.3 hits, which means 2 wounds gets through.
Nemesis Force Weapon, DEAD monstrous creature.

Well it depends on your squad size and weapons. 5 strike, purifier, and non terminator will die if charged by a trygon. It's not as easy as one wound one dead. You have to wound and make the 3d6 psy test as well as wound.

They have far better odds than almost any other similarly costed unit in the game.

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Dok wrote:

Redaxe13 wrote:errrr... 90% of people here who are saying GK aren't op are GK players. I think this thread may be a LITTLE biased.. lol I only play Demons and I don't think they're that op.. Not like unstoppable OP. Maybe slightly broken. I dunno, I'll decide once I play as GK I'd feel ok calling them op then

I feel that 90% of the people saying GK are OP in this thread haven't played against GK.

The GK players that are saying GK arnt oP, check their army lists....

Anyone can build a totally ineffective list and say they lose all the time hence not OP.

But what OP should encompass is what abusive capabilities can it have.

Hard to use that psyker power if the nid player spams mc and SotW outside of pally or Termies with banner which mean no hammer hand etc. So not that easy to insta gib Fexes if the nid player plans for psykers. Plus Doom can be a hassle if the nid player positions the spore properly. Just speaking from exp never take the nids that lightly with the new and improved shadow.

Why do you insist and persist on needing Hammer Hand to kill monstrous creatures? str 4 can wound even up to T7, as long as 6 is rolled.
GK will mostly strike first, hitting on 3s, which means 13.3 hits, which means 2 wounds gets through.
Nemesis Force Weapon, DEAD monstrous creature.

Well it depends on your squad size and weapons. 5 strike, purifier, and non terminator will die if charged by a trygon. It's not as easy as one wound one dead. You have to wound and make the 3d6 psy test as well as wound.

Here is what I need you to do.
Take out the Tyranid Codex
Look how many multi wound creatures there are in the codex
Look how many of those have shadows in the warp
Calculate a % and get back to me.

All your samples so far in your argument is all the same.
You use Trygon, an apex of Tyranid MWC and base all your counter argument with that and that alone.

IF Tyranid MWC are ALL LIKE TRYGONs, i will accept it. But knowing Tyranids, I know the rest of them are nothing like Trygons.
So again, please refer to the list of what I want you to do, or else this debate is 100% biased and pointless.

ShumaGorath wrote:They have far better odds than almost any other similarly costed unit in the game.

Not to mention their psybolt shots that are str 5. That effectively give them the str to cause penetration on vehicles.

Draigo, I know you have issues dealing with enemy AV, do you really think your psyffleman is the most effective against AV 14?
No, its beacuse you only take 2 psycannon instead of 4 per squad. You can double your firepower.

Call me a fortune teller, but I think you'll think you GK are alot stronger after you do that minor change.

Tyranid MCs, with the exception of the Trygon (and even the Trygon, really) are not meant to take on entire units in close combat unsupported.

As a Tyranid player, if you're doing it right, your MCs never get charged. Why? There are Termagants in the way. If you're doing it right, your MCs never get attacked by more than one guy with a Force Weapon. Why? The other guys with Force Weapons are in base-to-base contact with Termagants (or Hormagaunts, or Gargoyles). You always make sure that you're within 12" of a Synapse creature before engaging GKs. Your advantage is cheap bodies, which you can use to manipulate your opponent's attacks in assault, and deny movement and charges.

Honestly, GKs were a breath of fresh air after SW and DE, both of which were absolute punches in the gut for 'Nids.

Yeah, because getting vaped by force weapons is so much more fun than taking a billion fearless saves when the cleansing flame and choppy halberds rack up tons of free combat resolution on the guants......

I am not in the GK overpowered camp and firmly believe that Cheese Wolves are the most broken book, but I would never ever prefer to face GK with my Nids over SW or DE. There is just literally nothing you can do against any variation of that book as a Nid player that does not end in tears.

Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

If you're that worried about GKs, keep a Broodlord around for Aura of Despair. SitW plus Aura of Despair keeps Cleansing Flame pretty much locked down.

Nothing in Codex: GKs comes close to Jaws of the World Wolf, or watching 9 Hive Guard evaporate to 9 Venoms worth of shooting on Turn 1.

Draigo wrote:Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

Flaw in first point: You don't get FNP with gaunts or gargoyles against Psycannons as psycannons' strength is double their toughness.

Flaw in second point: You have a banner; SitW negated automatically.

Flaw in third point: Most gribblies don't get FNP against psycannons, Toughness 6 is irrelevant with hammerhand / might of titan / rad grenades combo, and yes, the single tyranid unit with a 3++ is moderately effective against GK.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Draigo wrote:Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

Flaw in first point: You don't get FNP with gaunts or gargoyles against Psycannons as psycannons' strength is double their toughness.

Flaw in second point: You have a banner; SitW negated automatically.

Flaw in third point: Most gribblies don't get FNP against psycannons, Toughness 6 is irrelevant with hammerhand / might of titan / rad grenades combo, and yes, the single tyranid unit with a 3++ is moderately effective against GK.

First doesnt matter cause not likely to kill an entire squad which you can run in to stop their shooting unless a 10 man squad. You kill guants tervigons can replenish that in a turn.

2nd banner only helps squad of terminators or pallys to activate their force weapon at str 4 no other powers. So may or may not work.. Against most the army doing 1 wound is irrelevant since you lack enough cc attacks to kill them since your shooting was ineffective. Now if you spam psycanons to make the shooting worthwhile you have effectively reduced your attacks to a pitful amount vs 15+ gaunts made from tervigons and ones that started the game. Banner for the terminators unless in a squad over 5 doesnt help much vs hordes but does give you a chance to kill a big creature.

3rd SitW makes the psy powers less reliable and it can be spammed throughout the army. Now run that unit into swarmlord with a retinue and you are ws 1 tryng to hit a 9 at a lower I. While engaged use doom to leech off wounds.

So no its not clear cut combat.

Draigo wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Draigo wrote:Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

Flaw in first point: You don't get FNP with gaunts or gargoyles against Psycannons as psycannons' strength is double their toughness.

Flaw in second point: You have a banner; SitW negated automatically.

Flaw in third point: Most gribblies don't get FNP against psycannons, Toughness 6 is irrelevant with hammerhand / might of titan / rad grenades combo, and yes, the single tyranid unit with a 3++ is moderately effective against GK.

First doesnt matter cause not likely to kill an entire squad which you can run in to stop their shooting unless a 10 man squad. You kill guants tervigons can replenish that in a turn.

2nd banner only helps squad of terminators or pallys to activate their force weapon at str 4 no other powers. So may or may not work.. Against most the army doing 1 wound is irrelevant since you lack enough cc attacks to kill them since your shooting was ineffective. Now if you spam psycanons to make the shooting worthwhile you have effectively reduced your attacks to a pitful amount vs 15+ gaunts made from tervigons and ones that started the game. Banner for the terminators unless in a squad over 5 doesnt help much vs hordes but does give you a chance to kill a big creature.

3rd SitW makes the psy powers less reliable and it can be spammed throughout the army. Now run that unit into swarmlord with a retinue and you are ws 1 tryng to hit a 9 at a lower I. While engaged use doom to leech off wounds.

So no its not clear cut combat.

First Point: The logical jump from can't kill an entire squad --> Shooting is ineffective is mind-blowing. By that logic, no shooting is ever effective because it is very hard to kill an entire squad with a single unit.

Second Point: 1) your shooting was not ineffective - I think 14 gaunts (with FNP from a 10 man purifier squad) or 18 (without FNP) is pretty effective. 2) you still have 2 attacks base plus cleansing flame. Woot.

Third point: It's true, you're right. So now we're up to TWO tyranid units who are marginally effective against grey knights, and I'd argue about the last because 15 attacks from five charging terminators with a banner will still put an instant-death wound on the squad - add a special character with rad grenades and hammerhand ( say a techmarine) and you have 18 attacks with 3 wounds, all of which still inflict instant death thanks to the banner.

EDIT: even without the last part my point stands. The zoanthrope is marginally effective against the Grey Knights, and the Swarmlord is pretty good too. Two units. Wonderful for the nids.

Draigo wrote:Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

Your arguments lead me to believe your exposure to GK are really limited and few.

For example, gaunts and gargoyles are any issue? to Redeemers? with Fortitude? Psyflame?

Remember your paladins? Ya they are the ones you didnt buy apothecary for, or else you could have FNP @ 2 wounds each too.

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

Your arguments lead me to believe your exposure to GK are really limited and few.

For example, gaunts and gargoyles are any issue? to Redeemers? with Fortitude? Psyflame?

Remember your paladins? Ya they are the ones you didnt buy apothecary for, or else you could have FNP @ 2 wounds each too.

Not discounting GK are still strong Luna just that they need a little finessing. You will need both phases to do enough wounds and hafta come up with a plan vs a crafty player. With the new sitw too since yes if stuff works you can clean house but if you dont roll that you can get hurt bad in return.

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

Your arguments lead me to believe your exposure to GK are really limited and few.

For example, gaunts and gargoyles are any issue? to Redeemers? with Fortitude? Psyflame?

Remember your paladins? Ya they are the ones you didnt buy apothecary for, or else you could have FNP @ 2 wounds each too.

Not discounting GK are still strong Luna just that they need a little finessing. You will need both phases to do enough wounds and hafta come up with a plan vs a crafty player. With the new sitw too since yes if stuff works you can clean house but if you dont roll that you can get hurt bad in return.

The fact that you have to 'plan' with Grey Knights doesn't mean they're not OP. The fact that the only time you have to 'plan' at all is against a crafty player is what is OP!

That literally means that you can just dick around, with no plan at all, against a normal player and expect to be victorious.

You see no problem here?

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

Your arguments lead me to believe your exposure to GK are really limited and few.

For example, gaunts and gargoyles are any issue? to Redeemers? with Fortitude? Psyflame?

Remember your paladins? Ya they are the ones you didnt buy apothecary for, or else you could have FNP @ 2 wounds each too.

Not discounting GK are still strong Luna just that they need a little finessing. You will need both phases to do enough wounds and hafta come up with a plan vs a crafty player. With the new sitw too since yes if stuff works you can clean house but if you dont roll that you can get hurt bad in return.

Have you figured out how many multi wound creatures Tyranids have, and out of those how many have shadows of the warp power?

Well the meta around here is mostly competitve so the people you can just steam roll arent about. So I can only really say from that perspective. Playing any army around here doesnt mean an instant win.

The only guy beside me who plays gk plays draigowing walking list. He hardly ever wins. Ties sure espeacially in c&c but am I suprised a 1k pt squad of 10 pallys draigo and a libby doesnt get wasted unless the entire army shoots at it? No no I am not.

Its no different when people were figuring out twc deathstars or fantasy death stars. People say theyre suprised a 200 pts squad cant waste a 1k pt one. Do you see the problem?

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

Your arguments lead me to believe your exposure to GK are really limited and few.

For example, gaunts and gargoyles are any issue? to Redeemers? with Fortitude? Psyflame?

Remember your paladins? Ya they are the ones you didnt buy apothecary for, or else you could have FNP @ 2 wounds each too.

Not discounting GK are still strong Luna just that they need a little finessing. You will need both phases to do enough wounds and hafta come up with a plan vs a crafty player. With the new sitw too since yes if stuff works you can clean house but if you dont roll that you can get hurt bad in return.

Have you figured out how many multi wound creatures Tyranids have, and out of those how many have shadows of the warp power?

9 have shadow. HQ, Elite, Troops and Heavy can all have it.

Draigo wrote:9 have shadow. HQ, Elite, Troops and Heavy can all have it.

9 out of....?

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:9 have shadow. HQ, Elite, Troops and Heavy can all have it.

9 out of....?

What relevance does that have? How many marines outside of a librarian have a hood?

Here let me do the work.... sigh....

Tyrannofex NONE
Mawloc NONE
Trygon NONE
Trygon Prime YES
Biovore NONE
Old One Eye NONE
Carnifex NONE
Harpy NONE
Sky Slasher Swarm NONE
Ravener NONE
Shrike Brood YES
Ripper Swarm NONE
Tyranid Warrior YES
Pyrovore NONE
Zoanthrope YES
Venmothrope NONE
Death Leaper NONE
Lictor NONE
Hive Guard NONE

Tervigon YES
Tyranid Prime YES
Hive Tyrant YES
Swarm Lord YES Special Char
Doom of Melon Tie YES Special Char
Parasite YES Special Char

Not to mention out of the yes, 3 of them are Special Characters

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:9 have shadow. HQ, Elite, Troops and Heavy can all have it.

9 out of....?

What relevance does that have? How many marines outside of a librarian have a hood?

The relevance? the relevance is how you can FORCE WEAPON THE REST OF THEM MANY HAVE 4-6 WOUNDS

Fetterkey wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Uh, not really. GKs can keep mobile so they aren't hurt by EV

On some units, yes. That said, the hulls they normally take don't benefit as much as others. For instance, the "psyback" doesn't benefit from tanks' superior ability to move and shoot. Further, Fortitude is far, far worse, as are walkers with two ranged weapons. Generally speaking Riflemen/Psyflemen really got the short end of the pancake edition stick.

"Some"? The number of GK units that need to stand still under these rules can be counted on one hand: the rifle dread, missile/can dread, servitors, and the vindicare. And I don't get were you're thinking that GK don't benifit from Tank. GK vehicles are tanks, so they benifit from the tank special rule, just like every other marine army. the "Psyback" is still MT 2 (unless the psyback is a twinlinked assult cannon, in which case *shrug*). Second, Fortitude does not change at all. If anything with the -1 to vehicle damage makes fortitude much better. Yes, I know that multi weapon walkers get the stick, I'm sad that my burny Deffdread is useless, but maybe this will make people consider purgitors/assault dreads/storm ravens/land raider, which have all gotten better.

Luke_Prowler wrote:you get an extra attack for having an assault weapon and CCW instead of just a pistol

Only on the charge.

That doesn't stop people from playing Orks, or Khorne armies. Getting a bonus for doing what you want to do is not a negitive in anyway. It's like complaining about only being able to fly during the day

Luke_Prowler wrote:It's safer to deepstrike, including no scatter if you deepstrike 18'' away from any enemy (and most GK weapons are 24'')

Sure, but GK don't benefit from this as much as others do.

Who? Other marines, who have to take droppods? Bloods Angels, which makes DoA largely redundant? Daemons, who get their asses kicked by GKs and if they deepstike in assault range will get the piss shot out of them? Tau, who's deepstriking units are more expensive than the GKs? I mean, Necrons I can see getting a big boost, but that's largely because of the Monolith and deathmarks, but I doubt it will be as large as the boost to GKs

Luke_Prowler wrote:Flamers get a whole lot better which makes the incinerator very powerful

This doesn't matter because the psycannon is still totally mandatory for anti-tank purposes.

The Mech is weaker in pancake edition, so anti-tank weapons are no longer "mandatory". Not to mention that template weapons can hit embarked units through the firepoints

Luke_Prowler wrote:and you can snipe melta gunner with any infantry, not just the vindicare.

In some cases, yes, but they can do the same and snipe your psycannons. I honestly think that change hurts GKs more than helps them, since GKs are extra reliant on psycannons to do the heavy lifting for them.

GK can throw the most fire at a farther range than most other units. The ones that do require a elite/heavy unit (like lootas) or a special rule (FRFSRF). Otherwise you'd have to get close to throw as much weight around, and if you do then the Grey knights can assault and be safe from fire

Luke_Prowler wrote:The only thing they lost is being not shooting before assaulting (which everyone lost, but GK still have the range to hurt other assault units) and force weapons only taking off 2 wounds instead for insta-kill (which means they can still kill most non-MC multi-wound units, and since force weapons are Instant Death (2) they ignore eternal warrior)

And Fortitude being good (Extra Armor is now far superior), and the general structure of their army working, and their psychic powers being hard to counter, and their ability to not lose valuable special models, and Draigowing... the list goes on and on.

1. Again, Fortitude did not change, and neither did Extra Armor. Extra Armor is just more desireable because of Hull Breach.
2. Everyone's army structure is changing. I don't know what the specific complaint is here, but I assure you that they won't be the only ones
3. Yes, Psyker defence is more common (which it should be, because so many armies had none), But this is because all Psykers have a +5 chance to deny a psychic power. And guess what, ALL Grey Knight units are psykers. That mean they get a significant boost in their defence while other armies will have to make room for these units, some of which are uncommon now (like wierdboyz)
4. Which ones? Your infantry are largely untouched and vehicles are weaker across all armies. FNP is weaker, but that applies to everyone. Unless your complaint is about Paladins, which is my next point...
5. Boo. Fething. Hoo. Your tough as nails deathstar unit can no longer wound abuse, they can join the pity party with Nobs. At least Paladins get better deep striking and an extra attack. Nobs got NOTHING

I will say that some armies got very good in pancake edition, Nids got a much needed buff and Eldar got quite a boost, but I don't see anything that nerfed Grey Knights

Which puts you in range of the shadow so maybe you just die a miserable death and lose to a "sub par codex."

In all fairness, 75% of your "does not have SitW" list isn't even semi-viable in any list. they other 25% will likely be escorted by a Tyranid prime or Hive Tyrant/swarmlord. It's only the Trygon that often gets itself into force weapon trouble in my experience.

Also, SitW isn't the be all and end all, it halves the chance of force weapons going off against LD10, and cuts it to 37.5% against LD9. Hardly a debilitating penalty when you consider it's a 50/50 chance to turn 1 wound into 6.

Carnage43 wrote:In all fairness, 75% of your "does not have SitW" list isn't even semi-viable in any list. they other 25% will likely be escorted by a Tyranid prime or Hive Tyrant/swarmlord. It's only the Trygon that often gets itself into force weapon trouble in my experience.

Also, SitW isn't the be all and end all, it halves the chance of force weapons going off against LD10, and cuts it to 37.5% against LD9. Hardly a debilitating penalty when you consider it's a 50/50 chance to turn 1 wound into 6.

not to mention its striking in initiative order, and everyone has one.

compare that with power fist for instance....

LunaHound wrote:

Carnage43 wrote:In all fairness, 75% of your "does not have SitW" list isn't even semi-viable in any list. they other 25% will likely be escorted by a Tyranid prime or Hive Tyrant/swarmlord. It's only the Trygon that often gets itself into force weapon trouble in my experience.

Also, SitW isn't the be all and end all, it halves the chance of force weapons going off against LD10, and cuts it to 37.5% against LD9. Hardly a debilitating penalty when you consider it's a 50/50 chance to turn 1 wound into 6.

not to mention its striking in initiative order, and everyone has one.

compare that with power fist for instance....

Oh its certainly better then a fist. lol But the armies who use fist tend to have a bit more damaging shooting typically. If psycanons were ap 3 or roll a rend then yes even without nfw youre good to go. But typcall youre killing gribblies and then gettin assaulted by meaner beasts so then you have to get 6 to wound AND pass your psy test on 3d6.


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I was curious how running 5 10 man purifier squads with 4 psycanons would do but not sure Id want that vs mech but hordes would prob be shredded.

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Carnage43 wrote:In all fairness, 75% of your "does not have SitW" list isn't even semi-viable in any list. they other 25% will likely be escorted by a Tyranid prime or Hive Tyrant/swarmlord. It's only the Trygon that often gets itself into force weapon trouble in my experience.

Also, SitW isn't the be all and end all, it halves the chance of force weapons going off against LD10, and cuts it to 37.5% against LD9. Hardly a debilitating penalty when you consider it's a 50/50 chance to turn 1 wound into 6.

not to mention its striking in initiative order, and everyone has one.

compare that with power fist for instance....

Oh its certainly better then a fist. lol But the armies who use fist tend to have a bit more damaging shooting typically. If psycanons were ap 3 or roll a rend then yes even without nfw youre good to go. But typcall youre killing gribblies and then gettin assaulted by meaner beasts so then you have to get 6 to wound AND pass your psy test on 3d6.


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I was curious how running 5 10 man purifier squads with 4 psycanons would do but not sure Id want that vs mech but hordes would prob be shredded.

.......... Draigo.... you know.... psycanons... rend...? You want.... AP3....?

You know psycannons are Str 7 AP4...? akin to an AUTO CANNON? THAT RENDS ? That can MOVE AND FIRE or DOUBLE the SHOTS WHEN NOT MOVING?
and you think.... thats NOT ENOUGH FOR HORDES? SO atleast now you admit that is deadly against all vehicles now finally right?

So let me give you a hint about hordes.... see, 4 psycannons aside what else do they have...... DOUBLE the amount of close combat attacks.
not to mention.... CLEANSING FLAME

Please tell me what cleansing flame does?

See... I apologize that im getting frustrated @_@ <--- my face atm
but you know, at first thought you must be trolling to not see all these strengths.
Then you pretty much convinced me you havnt really played GK ( which is fine )
But you should really take a step back, see how the strength different people posted, COMPILE IT, REALIZE it all these power
belongs to ONE UNIT that can be taken as troops.

Then.... it WILL hit you.

Sorry Luna math alone doesnt mean a whole lot cept to say that the codex has good weapons. That doesnt account for terrain tactics and such. So if you shoot 16 shots hit with half and wound with 4 and maybe 1-2 rends. That isnt reall that impressive since the bigger the squad means all its shots go to one target so 3 - 4 squads shoot and about 50/50 to kill the squad of say gaunts/gargolyes.

That more impressive then 27 twin linked lascanons with up 2 9 seperate targets?

or 15 missiles who can shoot at 15 targets?

Not really.. Then in combat you have a 3 + against around 6 monstrous creatures and poison gaunts?

Idk use all the caps you want Luna. Doesn't make you more right but you can have a idfferent opinion and its also funny that this is considered a bad mtachup for nids but you assume all will go well and slaughter.

Oy vey. This is getting tiresome.

To anyone who thinks that GKs are broken against Tyranids, I issue the following challenge:

You, me, Vassal. I play Tyranids, you play GKs, we see what happens.

Or it could mean I do play against good players who ignore the hype and find ways to make your insta win look more average.


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Also luna you dont know a thing about me so you may not want to assume and im over your false apologies. I have played the army since dh and because I can be the devils advocate you just get "frustrated." I agree its a strong dex but you dimissing other books and sayin they have no chance proves you havent played gk vs a good nids player or one that has played the army more then once.

How fast can a Tyranid army move if they have to stay within the SotW bubble?

Draigo wrote:Sorry Luna math alone doesnt mean a whole lot cept to say that the codex has good weapons. That doesnt account for terrain tactics and such. So if you shoot 16 shots hit with half and wound with 4 and maybe 1-2 rends. That isnt reall that impressive since the bigger the squad means all its shots go to one target so 3 - 4 squads shoot and about 50/50 to kill the squad of say gaunts/gargolyes.

Alright, I guess its time to take it up a notch, lets dance Draigo.
Math isn't used in predicting the final result. Math however, is used in balancing a codex, their capabilities, their worth.
Something Grey Knights are the best at, they are the Space Marines of Space Marines, make no doubt they live up to that.

Draigo wrote:That more impressive then 27 twin linked lascanons with up 2 9 seperate targets?

or 15 missiles who can shoot at 15 targets?

Add up the cost, and see the following:
Are they cheaper?
Are they good at ALL: Anti Armor + Anti Transport + Anti Infantry?
You cant ignore all those points. Grey Knight is the swiss army knife that does it all, and proper.

Also which squad are you talking about that can shoot 15 missile at 15 targets? I must know! :'D

Draigo wrote:Not really.. Then in combat you have a 3 + against around 6 monstrous creatures and poison gaunts?

Again, add up the points. See who goes first as well.
Your argument is constantly flawed, you always bring up unit vs unit, and suddenly additional support comes in to help your side of argument like magic.
Thats like saying GK have no support? thats silly. You raise your monstrous creature, I raise my force weapons.
You raise your gaunts that dont care for force weapons for support, I can do that too! I raise a Land Raider Redeemer that lol~ @ your poison gaunts.
Not to mention the foot print of your gaunt squads, if they do get into combat first, how will the rest of the MC get within 2 inches?

You need to start looking at everything as a whole, how the whole army energizes if you want to be convincing.

Idk use all the caps you want Luna. Doesn't make you more right but you can have a idfferent opinion and its also funny that this is considered a bad mtachup for nids but you assume all will go well and slaughter.

Draigo, so far have I just tell you out right "GK IS STRONGEST AND THATS MY OPINION?"
Nope, So far, I have debunked your claims, point by point with logic and fact. Im not going to beat an idea into your head, because thats impossible.
What I can do, and what I have being doing, is pointing out what you missed , and missed lots you have.

e.g
Draigo say purifiers are not shooty enough against hordes.
Lunahound say purifier is not only shooty, assaulty, they also have double the number of attacks + purifying flame which goes before combat, auto hits, auto wounds EVERYONE on 4+
Draigo says psycannons are not AP3
Lunahound says psycannons dont need to be AP3 when they are STR 7 RENDING ASSAULT CANNONS that can move and fire.
Draigo says tyranid creatures have FNP
Lunahound looks at Draigo's GK list and reminds him that his Paladin should get apothecary to get FNP especially being 2 WOUNDS.
Draigo says he his having trouble dealing with AP 14
Lunahound looks at Draigo's list and reminds him his Purifiers are only carrying HALF of the allowed psy cannons.

See? Im very logical and clear so far.

Luke_Prowler wrote:How fast can a Tyranid army move if they have to stay within the SotW bubble?

Excellent, glad you brought that up. Lots of the effective lists required pods.
Ironically enough half of with SOTW are most effective being dropped via pods.

Very good :3

You keep bring up force weapons that wound on 6 and have a 50 percent chance to activate how is that a great point vs sitw?

I said small purifiers arent shooty enough and lack attacks.
I never discounted fnp for pally but that matter little vs MC. And again wound on a 6 and 50/50 sitw. So against monstrous creatures you have 4 psycanons 1 or 2 hammers. So you have 4-5 with between 8-15 attacks.. maybe 3 wounds and then maybe a 1 and 3 chance to insta kill. Thats with 10. Not exactly overwhelming..

Again MC vs the dreads.. 4 shots per dread so either focus fire or have 4 dreads shoot at a different target? Which do you prefer luna because that wont do it with them having cover saves from smaller stuff.

As far as moving you can drop pod, run, or spend the pts for trygon prime who is fleet. Depends how they wanna run it.

Draigo wrote:You keep bring up force weapons that wound on 6 and have a 50 percent chance to activate how is that a great point vs sitw?

I said small purifiers arent shooty enough and lack attacks.
I never discounted fnp for pally but that matter little vs MC. And again wound on a 6 and 50/50 sitw. So against monstrous creatures you have 4 psycanons 1 or 2 hammers. So you have 4-5 with between 8-15 attacks.. maybe 3 wounds and then maybe a 1 and 3 chance to insta kill. Thats with 10. Not exactly overwhelming..

Again MC vs the dreads.. 4 shots per dread so either focus fire or have 4 dreads shoot at a different target? Which do you prefer luna because that wont do it with them having cover saves from smaller stuff.

As far as moving you can drop pod, run, or spend the pts for trygon prime who is fleet. Depends how they wanna run it.

I have to ask you this before we get any further.

Do you know why Obliterators cost more than Havocs?

Do you like dancing around or repeating yourself?

Oblits cost comes from versatility luna. Again I never discounted the fact that gk stuff can fufill multi purpose since purifiers can use psycanons and supplement the lost weapons with cf.

Draigo wrote:Do you like dancing around or repeating yourself?

Oblits cost comes from versatility luna. Again I never discounted the fact that gk stuff can fufill multi purpose since purifiers can use psycanons and supplement the lost weapons with cf.

And have TWO attacks?

So far I got you to admit contrary to your original denial

They are excellent against armor
They are excellent against Transport
They are excellent against infantry
They are excellent against horde.

Yet you say Im dancing around? More like If they can do all that, and still remain cheap in points,
how can you still think they are weak?

you have 50 ork shoota boys, shot 5 men purifier down to 1 man standing.

Tell me what following incidents happen in detail.

You lose 14 boyz because you rolled below average, provided that you assault and he gets cleansing flame off. More likely, he hides so you can't shoot him next turn, since you shouldn't be in charge range with your boyz anyway.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:You lose 14 boyz because you rolled below average, provided that you assault and he gets cleansing flame off. More likely, he hides so you can't shoot him next turn, since you shouldn't be in charge range with your boyz anyway.

And that sounds very underpowered

You lose 21 boys if Orks charged. + maybe 1 extra from melee

If they didnt charge, then the GK gets probably 2 dead from combination of shooting and melee
not to mention 21 dead ork boys

From 1 guy

Not over powered at all. Or if we dont like that term.... point cost not appropriated adjusted at all.

Is this good enough against hordes yet Draigo?

How do you lose 21 Orks? Are you charging BOTH your squads into the lone Purifier? Because if you are, you deserve to lose. And, again, you probably aren't in assault range, because you should be avoiding that.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:How do you lose 21 Orks? Are you charging BOTH your squads into the lone Purifier? Because if you are, you deserve to lose. And, again, you probably aren't in assault range, because you should be avoiding that.

Combat resolution fearless wounds will roughly double the effective output of cleansing flame against low armor hordes. 30 hits, 13ish casualties, likely another 7 or 8 from combat resolution after both sides have struck. If its a lone purifier the orks probably won't lose because he's dead, but that's a 78-84 point loss for orks vs a >30 point loss for the grey knights in what should be an optimal scenario for the orks. It's an idiotically designed mechanic that lets GKs do this.

If the GK player was smart he would just combat squad the purifiers and counter charge with them causing 60 hits before combat resolution against full squads and wiping out entire ork and tyranid units before combat actually begins with average rolling.

The codex is way overpowered. All of the veterans at the local game store inevitably get into a discussion about this every game night.
Anyone with a deeper knowledge of the game understands this. Games Workshop and Matt Ward did a disservice to the entire Warhammer 40,000
game by releasing that book. And it was all done in the name of sales; they wanted everyone to buy the new army. In a way they succeeded, and it is
a shame.

It is not 1 thing, it is lot's of little things that make them over the top.

1 - Their basic strike squad is 4 pts more than a tactical Marine.
2 - Aegis on everything & reinforced Aegis on the Psyriflemen.
3 - Purifiers (that can easily be spammed) Orks & Tyranids don't have an answer if the GK player is skilled. DE close combat armies are also invalidated.
4 - Fortitude
5 - Force Weapons on every model (this is way, way nasty and it is basically provided for free)
6 - Summoning a Land Raider filled with Grey Knights into your opponents deployment zone
7 - Psyriflemen - This single unit drastically dropped the DE Codex power level
8 - Librarian - Psychic powers are too powerful and undercosted
9 - Paladin wound allocation
10 - Paladin's are virtually untouchable in close combat, except against huge units of Bloodcrushers
11 - Warp Quake spam
12 - Teleport Shunting
13 - Psychotroke Grenades & Rad Grenades
14 - Henchmen armies are open to all kinds of build abuse

You add it all together, and you have an army that can do everything and has virtually no weaknesses. You can't use good tactics to beat them, because they have every angle covered.

Can they be beat? Absolutely, but they will win far more often than they will loose. They also hard counter many different builds and grossly unbalanced the overall meta game for the worse. In the hands of a really good player with a deep knowledge of the game, they are beyond broken, and if that player can do any list tailoring before a game; forget it.

We can please make our posts a bit more relevant and worth reading than this one was. Thanks.
Reds8n

So noted. I thought it was appropriate to give him a clap for just re-typing the same argument that's been going on for the last 20 pages, but you know, I understand how you might disagree...

I don't think G.K are over powered at all. Whoever thinks that G.K are over powered are a complete loony.

I think G.K are massively under powered and a weak codex they seriously need to get things sorted to make them top tier codex and beat face

pretre wrote: We can please make our posts a bit more relevant and worth reading than this one was. Thanks.
Reds8n

So noted. I thought it was appropriate to give him a clap for just re-typing the same argument that's been going on for the last 20 pages, but you know, I understand how you might disagree...

This thread shouldn't still exist at all.

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote: We can please make our posts a bit more relevant and worth reading than this one was. Thanks.
Reds8n

So noted. I thought it was appropriate to give him a clap for just re-typing the same argument that's been going on for the last 20 pages, but you know, I understand how you might disagree...

This thread shouldn't still exist at all.

See, Reds8n? We're exactly where we have been for 30+ pages. And I'm the one who gets nailed for spam? lol

We can please make our posts a bit more relevant and worth reading than this one was. Thanks. Reds8n... We can please? Is that some sort of pig Latin or something?

pretre wrote:

So noted. I thought it was appropriate to give him a clap for just re-typing the same argument that's been going on for the last 20 pages, but you know, I understand how you might disagree...

If you'd taken the time and effort to explain the fact that the arguments he'd outlined had already been covered in the thread earlier that would've been fine. And we all could have moved on with our lives into a bright new future full of.. I dunno.. talking puppies and fantastic new types of seafood. And shoes that clean themselves. .. One day.. one glorious day..


But you didn't, hence...

Devil Dog wrote:We can please make our posts a bit more relevant and worth reading than this one was. Thanks. Reds8n... We can please? Is that some sort of pig Latin or something?

Dude, don't pick on the moderator's grammar. Poor form.

And to keep me on topic:

Kairos wrote:The codex is way overpowered. All of the veterans at the local game store inevitably get into a discussion about this every game night.
Anyone with a deeper knowledge of the game understands this. Games Workshop and Matt Ward did a disservice to the entire Warhammer 40,000
game by releasing that book. And it was all done in the name of sales; they wanted everyone to buy the new army. In a way they succeeded, and it is
a shame.

Yeah, this is where I knew it would be a good post. Ward-hate, the ol' codex creep to sell books, blah blah.

If you go back over the below, we have been back and forth on this throughout the thread. Nothing new, but some are very entertaining.

1 - Their basic strike squad is 4 pts more than a tactical Marine.
2 - Aegis on everything & reinforced Aegis on the Psyriflemen.
3 - Purifiers (that can easily be spammed) Orks & Tyranids don't have an answer if the GK player is skilled. DE close combat armies are also invalidated.
4 - Fortitude
5 - Force Weapons on every model (this is way, way nasty and it is basically provided for free)
6 - Summoning a Land Raider filled with Grey Knights into your opponents deployment zone
7 - Psyriflemen - This single unit drastically dropped the DE Codex power level
8 - Librarian - Psychic powers are too powerful and undercosted
9 - Paladin wound allocation
10 - Paladin's are virtually untouchable in close combat, except against huge units of Bloodcrushers

I liked this one. Particularly amusing.

11 - Warp Quake spam
12 - Teleport Shunting
13 - Henchmen armies are open to all kinds of build abuse

You add it all together, and you have an army that can do everything and has virtually no weaknesses. You can't use good tactics to beat them, because they have every angle covered.

Aha. This is, again, why the GK are sweeping all the tournaments and no one wins against them. Our tactics are powerless!

Can they be beat? Absolutely, but they will win far more often than they will loose. They also hard counter many different builds and grossly unbalanced the overall meta game for the worse. In the hands of a really good player with a deep knowledge of the game, they are beyond broken, and if that player can do any list tailoring before a game; forget it.

And the icing on the cake... Wait, so you're telling me if my opponent list tailors I might lose? Nice.

3 - Purifiers (that can easily be spammed) Orks & Tyranids don't have an answer if the GK player is skilled. DE close combat armies are also invalidated.

I'll say again, I think Tyranids have an answer. My Vassal challenge stands.

NeutronPoison wrote:

3 - Purifiers (that can easily be spammed) Orks & Tyranids don't have an answer if the GK player is skilled. DE close combat armies are also invalidated.

I'll say again, I think Tyranids have an answer. My Vassal challenge stands.

I'd be interested in seeing your "answer" list.

Let's talk a bit about your list.

Kairos wrote:1 - Their basic strike squad is 4 pts more than a tactical Marine.

This has already been talked to death. Comparing a unit or even a model 1v1 is pointless. It will never matter in an actual game. I would like to point out that Grey Hunters and Chaos space marines are both one point less than a tactical marine, so that must make Space Wolves and CSM OP as well!

Kairos wrote:2 - Aegis on everything & reinforced Aegis on the Psyriflemen.

Passive psychic defense makes things op? You must play space wolves, because they are the only army I can think of that aegis really matters against.

Kairos wrote:3 - Purifiers (that can easily be spammed) Orks & Tyranids don't have an answer if the GK player is skilled. DE close combat armies are also invalidated.

Anything in any book can be spammed. A fully kitted purifier squad costs almost 400 points. That plus the cost of crowe doesn't get you very many units. And if you play against an army with more than 24" range that can shut down your mobility, then it's an autolose.

Kairos wrote:4 - Fortitude

Having the ability to do something that no other army can do does not make one OP. It makes them different. Are BA OP because their tanks are fast? Are CSM OP because they can take havoc launchers and are super cheap?

Kairos wrote:5 - Force Weapons on every model (this is way, way nasty and it is basically provided for free)

Almost every psyker in the game comes with a force weapon. Would an army full of psykers make sense if they didn't have force weapons? Nothing is free when it comes to a models cost. Codexes have different price points and are not necessarily pointed against each other. Tactical marines are the equivalent of a Grey Knight in statline only. They don't have the same options, nor the same wargear, nor the same supporting units. So Why would they have a similar cost? Again, what does a tac marine get for his 1 point over a CSM or a grey hunter??

Kairos wrote:6 - Summoning a Land Raider filled with Grey Knights into your opponents deployment zone

If you can't kill a Land raider with your whole army, then your army has problems. Especially one in "your deployment zone" where you should have meltas/MCs/powerfist or klaws.

Kairos wrote:7 - Psyriflemen - This single unit drastically dropped the DE Codex power level

No doubt. The GK codex is exceptionally good against an army where all the tanks are av10 and open topped. As is any army with a lot of high quality shots. DEs weakness is that they are a glass cannon. That didn't change when the GK codex came out.

Kairos wrote:8 - Librarian - Psychic powers are too powerful and undercosted

I agree. However, you pay a premium for that librarian body. And if you manage to kill him, then any army built around relying on the librarian will crumble.

Kairos wrote:9 - Paladin wound allocation

This is a complaint against wound allocation. Paladins are just the latest in a line of units abusing these shenanigans.

Kairos wrote:10 - Paladin's are virtually untouchable in close combat, except against huge units of Bloodcrushers

Assuming you are talking about large groups of paladins, 1000 point units should be good. End of story.

Kairos wrote:11 - Warp Quake spam

I have used warp quake against a Daemon player once. I only had 5 strike squad members. It still made me feel cheesy. However, if I didn't have that time to shoot down his three units of cavalry, I would have felt mush less sorry for him. Everyone likes to say daemons are weak/hosed because of grey knights. But if you've ever been charged by a unit of seekers you will not feel bad for them.

Kairos wrote:12 - Teleport Shunting

I'm not sure how shunting entered into the discussion, but GK are severely limited on mobility for the most part. Shunting gives them a little bit of reach they otherwise wouldn't have. Shunting is the equivalent of a drop podding unit imo.

Kairos wrote:13 - Henchmen armies are open to all kinds of build abuse

If you would like to expand on that, I would love to talk about it. Most people complain about DC assassins, but I haven't found them to be that big of a deal. Bubble wrap your important units or hide them in area terrain. I have the feeling that most people who are losing to them are just not playing against them in a smart way.

Well, my super-tailored anti-GKs is:

Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200

3 Hive Guard - 150
3 Hive Guard - 150
2 Hive Guard - 100

10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
7+1 Genestealers, Broodlord
6+1 Genestealers, Broodlord

Trygon - 200
Trygon - 200
Trygon, AG - 210

I've tabled Crowe / Purifiers / Dreads with this. It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon, or how little this Tyranids list actually needs the Trygons (once you've shot down the Trygons, the Tervigons, 'Stealers, buffed-up gaunts, and Hive Guard chew through Purifers pretty easily, since Cleansing Flame is more or less a non-factor under Shadow at Ld 7 due to 2 stacking Auras of Despair off of the Broodlords.

Granted, this list runs out of steam against SW and flails ineffectively against DE. I do think it exposes GKs weaknesses pretty nicely, though. I imagine Jump BA would present similar problems to Crowe / Purifier / Dreads (although maybe not to a Paladinstar).

My TAC is pretty different from this, and tends to wind up getting ground down by Psycannon fire against smart GKs players (not-so-smart GKs players don't keep their distance and get eaten in CC), but that's really more because of how many concessions I have to make just to feel like I have a chance against DE.

NeutronPoison wrote:Well, my super-tailored anti-GKs is:
snip

My TAC is pretty different from this, and tends to wind up getting ground down by Psycannon fire against smart GKs players (not-so-smart GKs players don't keep their distance and get eaten in CC), but that's really more because of how many concessions I have to make just to feel like I have a chance against DE.

Tailoring a list to defeat an opponent doesn't mean that that opponent is not good, op or bad. It means you tailored to win. If you can't win with a TAC, then there's a problem.

I mean, the list I posted would be pretty darn near TAC if not for DE. If not for DE (which I do consider broken against 'Nids), I would happily run that as a TAC. The tailored list is still a valuable insight, though, because it helps you realize what a list needs in order to handle GKs.

My win-percentage with my TAC against GKs is still better than against SW.

NeutronPoison wrote:Well, my super-tailored anti-GKs is:

Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200

3 Hive Guard - 150
3 Hive Guard - 150
2 Hive Guard - 100

10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
7+1 Genestealers, Broodlord
6+1 Genestealers, Broodlord

Trygon - 200
Trygon - 200
Trygon, AG - 210

I've tabled Crowe / Purifiers / Dreads with this. It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon, or how little this Tyranids list actually needs the Trygons (once you've shot down the Trygons, the Tervigons, 'Stealers, buffed-up gaunts, and Hive Guard chew through Purifers pretty easily, since Cleansing Flame is more or less a non-factor under Shadow at Ld 7 due to 2 stacking Auras of Despair off of the Broodlords.

Granted, this list runs out of steam against SW and flails ineffectively against DE. I do think it exposes GKs weaknesses pretty nicely, though. I imagine Jump BA would present similar problems to Crowe / Purifier / Dreads (although maybe not to a Paladinstar).

My TAC is pretty different from this, and tends to wind up getting ground down by Psycannon fire against smart GKs players (not-so-smart GKs players don't keep their distance and get eaten in CC), but that's really more because of how many concessions I have to make just to feel like I have a chance against DE.

So a list tailored to beat GKs loses to DE, SW and mech Guard. Yep. Usefull list there. It's sad, I actually have to do the same thing with my codex marines. It's hard (if not impossible) to build an all comers list that can handle the specific bs that GKs brings to the table with a few codexes. That implies unbalanced design.

Dok wrote:Let's talk a bit about your list.

Kairos wrote:1 - Their basic strike squad is 4 pts more than a tactical Marine.

This has already been talked to death. Comparing a unit or even a model 1v1 is pointless. It will never matter in an actual game. I would like to point out that Grey Hunters and Chaos space marines are both one point less than a tactical marine, so that must make Space Wolves and CSM OP as well!

Kairos wrote:2 - Aegis on everything & reinforced Aegis on the Psyriflemen.

Passive psychic defense makes things op? You must play space wolves, because they are the only army I can think of that aegis really matters against.

Kairos wrote:3 - Purifiers (that can easily be spammed) Orks & Tyranids don't have an answer if the GK player is skilled. DE close combat armies are also invalidated.

Anything in any book can be spammed. A fully kitted purifier squad costs almost 400 points. That plus the cost of crowe doesn't get you very many units. And if you play against an army with more than 24" range that can shut down your mobility, then it's an autolose.

Kairos wrote:4 - Fortitude

Having the ability to do something that no other army can do does not make one OP. It makes them different. Are BA OP because their tanks are fast? Are CSM OP because they can take havoc launchers and are super cheap?

Kairos wrote:5 - Force Weapons on every model (this is way, way nasty and it is basically provided for free)

Almost every psyker in the game comes with a force weapon. Would an army full of psykers make sense if they didn't have force weapons? Nothing is free when it comes to a models cost. Codexes have different price points and are not necessarily pointed against each other. Tactical marines are the equivalent of a Grey Knight in statline only. They don't have the same options, nor the same wargear, nor the same supporting units. So Why would they have a similar cost? Again, what does a tac marine get for his 1 point over a CSM or a grey hunter??

Kairos wrote:6 - Summoning a Land Raider filled with Grey Knights into your opponents deployment zone

If you can't kill a Land raider with your whole army, then your army has problems. Especially one in "your deployment zone" where you should have meltas/MCs/powerfist or klaws.

Kairos wrote:7 - Psyriflemen - This single unit drastically dropped the DE Codex power level

No doubt. The GK codex is exceptionally good against an army where all the tanks are av10 and open topped. As is any army with a lot of high quality shots. DEs weakness is that they are a glass cannon. That didn't change when the GK codex came out.

Kairos wrote:8 - Librarian - Psychic powers are too powerful and undercosted

I agree. However, you pay a premium for that librarian body. And if you manage to kill him, then any army built around relying on the librarian will crumble.

Kairos wrote:9 - Paladin wound allocation

This is a complaint against wound allocation. Paladins are just the latest in a line of units abusing these shenanigans.

Kairos wrote:10 - Paladin's are virtually untouchable in close combat, except against huge units of Bloodcrushers

Assuming you are talking about large groups of paladins, 1000 point units should be good. End of story.

Kairos wrote:11 - Warp Quake spam

I have used warp quake against a Daemon player once. I only had 5 strike squad members. It still made me feel cheesy. However, if I didn't have that time to shoot down his three units of cavalry, I would have felt mush less sorry for him. Everyone likes to say daemons are weak/hosed because of grey knights. But if you've ever been charged by a unit of seekers you will not feel bad for them.

Kairos wrote:12 - Teleport Shunting

I'm not sure how shunting entered into the discussion, but GK are severely limited on mobility for the most part. Shunting gives them a little bit of reach they otherwise wouldn't have. Shunting is the equivalent of a drop podding unit imo.

Kairos wrote:13 - Henchmen armies are open to all kinds of build abuse

If you would like to expand on that, I would love to talk about it. Most people complain about DC assassins, but I haven't found them to be that big of a deal. Bubble wrap your important units or hide them in area terrain. I have the feeling that most people who are losing to them are just not playing against them in a smart way.

#1 - Your comments regarding my posts are filled with double talk and logic that doesn't make sense.

#2 - You are in the MINORITY if you feel Grey Knights are not overpowered. Most veteran players know that they are, and this very thread shows that over 50% of all players believe they are overpowered. You are mostly trying to convince yourself of nonsense here.

#3 - I also noticed you are a Grey Knight player. That explains a lot of your posting. Not to be rude, but your counter arguments are rubbish.

It beats mech guard with some regularity.

If you deleted Codex: GKs, I still wouldn't be able to beat DE, and I would still usually run out of steam against SW.

And my TAC wins its fair share against GK. Just not by tabling.

pretre wrote: We can please make our posts a bit more relevant and worth reading than this one was. Thanks.
Reds8n

So noted. I thought it was appropriate to give him a clap for just re-typing the same argument that's been going on for the last 20 pages, but you know, I understand how you might disagree...

I really don't appreciate this comment. This is a thread to discuss the overpowered nature of Grey Knights.

You can close the thread if you feel it has run it's course.

Kairos wrote:

pretre wrote: We can please make our posts a bit more relevant and worth reading than this one was. Thanks.
Reds8n

So noted. I thought it was appropriate to give him a clap for just re-typing the same argument that's been going on for the last 20 pages, but you know, I understand how you might disagree...

I really don't appreciate this comment. This is a thread to discuss the overpowered nature of Grey Knights.

You can close the thread if you feel it has run it's course.

It has run its course, for the love of the emperor just kill it. It started out terrible and it has always been terrible.

Kairos wrote:I really don't appreciate this comment. This is a thread to discuss the overpowered nature of Grey Knights.

You can close the thread if you feel it has run it's course.

You don't have to appreciate it, but that doesn't make it any less true. You rehashed the same arguments that have been going on for 30 pages. Granted, you did it in a nice format, but still...

What did you expect?

pretre wrote:

Kairos wrote:I really don't appreciate this comment. This is a thread to discuss the overpowered nature of Grey Knights.

You can close the thread if you feel it has run it's course.

You don't have to appreciate it, but that doesn't make it any less true. You rehashed the same arguments that have been going on for 30 pages. Granted, you did it in a nice format, but still...

What did you expect?

Like you haven't done the same thing.

ShumaGorath wrote:It has run its course, for the love of the emperor just kill it. It started out terrible and it has always been terrible.

Hey Shuma, I'm not quite sure we know what your position on this thread is... Could you explain?

We get it, dude, you don't like this thread. You never have. You don't need to make every response 'please close this thread'. If you legitimately want it closed, hit the little exclamation point and notify a moderator of your concerns.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:It has run its course, for the love of the emperor just kill it. It started out terrible and it has always been terrible.

Hey Shuma, I'm not quite sure we know what your position on this thread is... Could you explain?

We get it, dude, you don't like this thread. You never have. You don't need to make every response 'please close this thread'. If you legitimately want it closed, hit the little exclamation point and notify a moderator of your concerns.

I probably interject for the same reason that you dive on every grenade thrown by someone who hasn't read the thread and who has tossed in the same repetitious list of what is unbalanced about the codex. There are problems afoot, I guess I'm just going farther downstream to fix it.

ShumaGorath wrote:Like you haven't done the same thing.

For someone who hates this thread and wants it to close, you're doing a great job perpetuating it with pithy one-liners.

And no, I have not catalogued a ton of arguments that previously were discussed and laid them out as if they were brand new because I hadn't read the rest of the thread. But thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:I probably interject for the same reason that you dive on every grenade thrown by someone who hasn't read the thread and who has tossed in the same repetitious list of what is unbalanced about the codex.

Except debating the topic of the thread is on-topic. Where as constant calls for the thread to be closed because you don't like it isn't.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Like you haven't done the same thing.

For someone who hates this thread and wants it to close, you're doing a great job perpetuating it with pithy one-liners.

And no, I have not catalogued a ton of arguments that previously were discussed and laid them out as if they were brand new because I hadn't read the rest of the thread. But thanks.

No, but you've managed to repeat the same lines for a good 30 pages in here.

Except debating the topic of the thread is on-topic. Where as constant calls for the thread to be closed because you don't like it isn't.

Someone should do something about that! Clearly the thread is off topic! It should get locked

Kairos wrote:#1 - Your comments regarding my posts are filled with double talk and logic that doesn't make sense.

#2 - You are in the MINORITY if you feel Grey Knights are not overpowered. Most veteran players know that they are, and this very thread shows that over 50% of all players believe they are overpowered. You are mostly trying to convince yourself of nonsense here.

#3 - I also noticed you are a Grey Knight player. That explains a lot of your posting. Not to be rude, but your counter arguments are rubbish.

Kairos, why don't you address his points directly rather than as a whole. That's how we discuss things.

Yes, the 'very scientific' poll at the top of the page says that they are OP. Appealing to the authority that 'most veteran players' doesn't really help your case. Use your own statements to do that.

Oh god theres a poll at the top of this. I never even noticed. What is winning?

pretre wrote:

Kairos wrote:#1 - Your comments regarding my posts are filled with double talk and logic that doesn't make sense.

#2 - You are in the MINORITY if you feel Grey Knights are not overpowered. Most veteran players know that they are, and this very thread shows that over 50% of all players believe they are overpowered. You are mostly trying to convince yourself of nonsense here.

#3 - I also noticed you are a Grey Knight player. That explains a lot of your posting. Not to be rude, but your counter arguments are rubbish.

Kairos, why don't you address his points directly rather than as a whole. That's how we discuss things.

Yes, the 'very scientific' poll at the top of the page says that they are OP. Appealing to the authority that 'most veteran players' doesn't really help your case. Use your own statements to do that.

I have already listed the very real reasons Grey Knights are overpowered. The "comments" Dok listed above are double talk and hyberbole.

I am not going to spend a bunch of time trying to convince a Grey Knight player that his book is overpowered and unbalanced. Walk into any established 40K gaming group, and find out who the veterans are. Ask them their
opinions about Grey Knights if you don't believe me.

It is what it is.

I agree its a strong book but not old csm, old ba, or 2nd nids. It did not ruin the an entire edition like 7th daemons. I also dont think it invaliated much outside of non fatecrusher daemon lists.

I think if the list is well made and against an opponent without psy defense it will be slow going for their oppoenent. But it does take certain builds to really bring out the gk power. While 10 paladins with libby and Draigo is really hard to bring down it is slow and can be out positioned.

Purifiers can bring a lot of hurt but if they take a lot of psycanons have fewer of the dreaded nfw attacks plus av 12-13 spam vs purifiers can hurt them, like an all dreadnaught sm list.

Henchamn is kinda a mixed bag cause they have things that are very good at one thing but say the DCA lose their ride well then they just get shot to pices.

The power is in the list building really. I still am suprised people bring up warp quake.. Building a list around that is ridiculous since only a small minority would be doin that much ds. Kinda a party foul espeacially if you tailor to play a daemon or drop pod guy.

Kairos wrote:

pretre wrote:

Kairos wrote:#1 - Your comments regarding my posts are filled with double talk and logic that doesn't make sense.

#2 - You are in the MINORITY if you feel Grey Knights are not overpowered. Most veteran players know that they are, and this very thread shows that over 50% of all players believe they are overpowered. You are mostly trying to convince yourself of nonsense here.

#3 - I also noticed you are a Grey Knight player. That explains a lot of your posting. Not to be rude, but your counter arguments are rubbish.

Kairos, why don't you address his points directly rather than as a whole. That's how we discuss things.

Yes, the 'very scientific' poll at the top of the page says that they are OP. Appealing to the authority that 'most veteran players' doesn't really help your case. Use your own statements to do that.

I have already listed the very real reasons Grey Knights are overpowered. The "comments" Dok listed above are double talk and hyberbole.

I am not going to spend a bunch of time trying to convince a Grey Knight player that his book is overpowered and unbalanced. Walk into any established 40K gaming group, and find out who the veterans are. Ask them their
opinions about Grey Knights if you don't believe me.

It is what it is.

You posted a list of things that had no argumentative back-up. Basically a list of why you feel GK are OP with no reasoning.
Of course it's double-talk and hyperbole. That's what this whole thread is full of. People are complaining that in very specific situations against specific models, GK are OP. You did this yourself.

As far as Veteran 40k players are concerned, I've been playing 40k on and off since 2nd edition. The only people I see complaining about GK are people that aren't knowledgeable about what a GK player can do and subsequently get romped, and people who are full of theory-crafting BS and haven't played a game of 40k in three months.

Also, Just because I'm a GK player makes my opinions or statements about GK invalid? Wouldn't they be more valid since I've spent a large amount of time using and playing against the army? I have at least 50 tournament games worth of experience backing me up.

Kairos wrote: Walk into any established 40K gaming group, and find out who the veterans are. Ask them their opinions about Grey Knights if you don't believe me.

It is what it is.

People like to complain... and a lot of people who consider themselves "veterans" at 40K are not really that much better players than us normal scrubs... and their opinion is not magically more valuable. However, if you really did want to poll people about whether GKs are OP, then I think you should ask people who are doing well at a large GT. I think that they would at least have a broader perspective than many of us gamers that play against the same group of people week in and week out.

Personally, I think the GK is probably one of the best written books currently out there... It provides a lot of flexibility in what units you can take in your list and remain effective. It has multiple builds that can run with the big boys and do well. I do NOT think this is overpowered, though. The book has a very high "low-end" because most of the units are effective, so even a battleforce list isn't terrible. However, it's top-end builds are not any meaner than the top BA, SW, and IG builds.

A lot of the hypotheticals I have seen thrown around assume that the GK are going to have every single, possible unit in their list to counter anything any army could to them. That is just never going to be the case though. If you go Purifier spam, then you face tough matchups against shooty armies that can torrent your expensive dudes down. If you go heavy henchmen, then you might have a lot of stuff, but your troops die to a stiff breeze. Draigo-wing gets destroyed by tank shots/melta spam. EVERY army has bad matchups... even GKs. I have yet to see a single GK list posted anywhere that is an unbeatable list. I haven't even seen that many that my Space Marines army would hate more than SW/IG.

And to be honest... saying that GKs destroy Nids doesn't make them OP. Is there a 5th Edition codex that doesn't ROFLstomp the Nid codex?

Can someone please lock this thread, is just people who don't know about GK arguing that they are overpowered and unexperienced GK players defending how Gk are not overpowered.

ALL i see is this unit can beat this, thens someone else comes along and says unit B beats unit a then it carries on and on.

I will speak with about how GK deals with other armies.

GK vs mech marines, amazing.

GK vs mech DE, good but once your units are out of the tanks, they die instantly. but still venoms are made of paper.

GK vs Horde marines, trouble for GK

GK vs horde orks, (kanwall) close game, just had a game, orks won with 1 more KP. 60 shoots from 30 orks vs 1 squad of GK is win. GK in combat with orks is instant death for them but after the combat, the GK squad will be so small, some lootas or even grots will have no problem dealing with them.

Because people don't seem to understand, a moderation note:

We don't close threads that continue to garner polite and topical conversation.

We do sanction posters who drag threads off-topic (including repeated cries to close a thread), or are rude to other posters.

If you don't have something topical to add to a thread, don't post.

If you don't care to read a thread, don't click on it.

Janthkin wrote:Because people don't seem to understand, a moderation note:

We don't close threads that continue to garner polite and topical conversation.

We do sanction posters who drag threads off-topic (including repeated cries to close a thread), or are rude to other posters.

If you don't have something topical to add to a thread, don't post.

If you don't care to read a thread, don't click on it.

Shouldn't you close a thread because its creating a divide in the community? This topic has proved nothing useful for either side of the arguement because all i can see is people asking someone else to be topical but being untopical themselves. When I used to be a mod I first let this kinda of topic go on but it eventually just leads to off topic insults.

I think everything about the topic have been said and many would agree. Now it has turned into unit vs unit. Shouldn't this atleast be moved to 40k general discussion? because it has nothing to do with tournaments anymore, it might started on topic but its not anymore.


Now to everyone else, please read the last few pages of the topic and tell e what you guys have been talking about. You have been comparing units vs units, this has nothing to do with GK nor tournaments. Every army will have an unit that can beat another.

Now since this is tournament discussion, lets all talk about tournament lists not a tailored list vs demons.

My opponion, I think GK are good but not the most over powered book in a decade, there are lists that will beat them and there are some who don't stand a chance, Overall, GK are very balanced on all fronts. Unless your army is super specialised in one department, then you will find it hard to win against GK.

However, most tournament lists are all very competitive so winning and losing is not down to ig GK are over powered anymore, its more the general's skill.

Overall, GK are very balanced on all fronts. Unless your army is super specialised in one department, then you will find it hard to win against GK.

I really don't understand this. What armies do you play against GKs? Didn't you earlier state that you didn't regularly play them? There are matchups where there is legitimate and serious unbalance. GKs vs dark angels can not be won by the dark angels without the knights making immense mistakes. Same with most tyranid builds. Codex marines vs GKs and most BA builds are in the same boat. Even dark eldar have an intensely difficult time with most GK builds. These aren't outliars, these are repetitious and played out scenarios that has lead to an anti GK backlash that was much worse than the anti IG or lashwhip chaos backlashes were. There are numerous items in that book (halberds, psychotropes, psycanons, etc) that are commonly considered overpowered and undercosted and the book is an entire army based on force weapons which is inherently unbalancing at it's barest level as it ignores two defensive strategems that many armies rely on.

It is not balanced on all fronts. At all. It's not even close. Whether its overpowered or not isn't even relevant here (for "balance" concerns), its at it's barest an incredibly unbalanced book because it's basic equipment is an extreme derivation of a specialized weapon and it can wound allocate almost every model in its army at once.

Generally I have a hard time with all power armour armies such as the BA All assault marines + devastators list, any army with a good counter assault element and effective screening units, Paladins, and some IG lists.
It is terribly difficult for a GK list with low mobility to deal with paladins. Even high mobility Gk lists have trouble as there is no reliable way to get enough low ap shots on them.
The all power armour list with FNP is really hard as well. Everything gets two saves against almost all the shooting unless you rend. They also get to decide where combat takes place as their mobility far surpasses yours.
Certain IG lists in certain deployment types will also take me off the table with little effort. It's really important for me to go first in those situations or it's almost an auto-lose.

NeutronPoison wrote:Well, my super-tailored anti-GKs is:

Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200

3 Hive Guard - 150
3 Hive Guard - 150
2 Hive Guard - 100

10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
7+1 Genestealers, Broodlord
6+1 Genestealers, Broodlord

Trygon - 200
Trygon - 200
Trygon, AG - 210

I've tabled Crowe / Purifiers / Dreads with this. It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon, or how little this Tyranids list actually needs the Trygons (once you've shot down the Trygons, the Tervigons, 'Stealers, buffed-up gaunts, and Hive Guard chew through Purifers pretty easily, since Cleansing Flame is more or less a non-factor under Shadow at Ld 7 due to 2 stacking Auras of Despair off of the Broodlords.

Granted, this list runs out of steam against SW and flails ineffectively against DE. I do think it exposes GKs weaknesses pretty nicely, though. I imagine Jump BA would present similar problems to Crowe / Purifier / Dreads (although maybe not to a Paladinstar).

My TAC is pretty different from this, and tends to wind up getting ground down by Psycannon fire against smart GKs players (not-so-smart GKs players don't keep their distance and get eaten in CC), but that's really more because of how many concessions I have to make just to feel like I have a chance against DE.

I will accept your vassal challenge. For the record, I have never played a game with grey knights. You can select which build I have: Draigo wing, Crowe-pruifier spam, henchman spam. I am assuming you list is around 2k points. Also modified rule set instead of sieze ground, capture and control, and annihilation the mission will be this: If you have 1 model (just one) survive the game you win. That means I have to board wipe you in 6 turns to win the game. I will post a detailed battle report covering the game as well. I dont do this to show that nids are bad. I do this to show you that GK are just that silly. Normally I dont play to board wipe opponents but this is for enlightening purposes so I will make an exception. PM with times your available to play. I am usually free on monday days, wednesday mornings or evening, or friday all day.

Marthike wrote:

Janthkin wrote:Because people don't seem to understand, a moderation note:

We don't close threads that continue to garner polite and topical conversation.

We do sanction posters who drag threads off-topic (including repeated cries to close a thread), or are rude to other posters.

If you don't have something topical to add to a thread, don't post.

If you don't care to read a thread, don't click on it.

Shouldn't you close a thread because its creating a divide in the community? This topic has proved nothing useful for either side of the arguement because all i can see is people asking someone else to be topical but being untopical themselves. When I used to be a mod I first let this kinda of topic go on but it eventually just leads to off topic insults.

I think everything about the topic have been said and many would agree. Now it has turned into unit vs unit. Shouldn't this atleast be moved to 40k general discussion? because it has nothing to do with tournaments anymore, it might started on topic but its not anymore.


Now to everyone else, please read the last few pages of the topic and tell e what you guys have been talking about. You have been comparing units vs units, this has nothing to do with GK nor tournaments. Every army will have an unit that can beat another.

Now since this is tournament discussion, lets all talk about tournament lists not a tailored list vs demons.

My opponion, I think GK are good but not the most over powered book in a decade, there are lists that will beat them and there are some who don't stand a chance, Overall, GK are very balanced on all fronts. Unless your army is super specialised in one department, then you will find it hard to win against GK.

However, most tournament lists are all very competitive so winning and losing is not down to ig GK are over powered anymore, its more the general's skill.

hmmm, you seem to hate this thread and appear to be trying to end it because you (yourself) do not like it. Instead of ending an entire thread because of your opinions; move to the top of the screen and select your name. Click on view threads subscribed by you and then click unsubscribe. This way we dont have to read how much you want it locked every time you post. The thread has been informative on multiple fronts. Especially to players who might be in a meta where GK are not prominent. Knowledge is power and as I said in another thread recently: knowing is half the battle.

@marthike

The last few have been on topic. They were discussing the points made that GK made certain armies completely unviable. The points were they can be or could not be so saying that the people are inexp or dont know is not accurate just because they have differing opinions.

Gornall wrote:

Kairos wrote: Walk into any established 40K gaming group, and find out who the veterans are. Ask them their opinions about Grey Knights if you don't believe me.

It is what it is.

People like to complain... and a lot of people who consider themselves "veterans" at 40K are not really that much better players than us normal scrubs... and their opinion is not magically more valuable. However, if you really did want to poll people about whether GKs are OP, then I think you should ask people who are doing well at a large GT. I think that they would at least have a broader perspective than many of us gamers that play against the same group of people week in and week out.

Very true, and we're all guilty of it. Part of life is to complain about how much alot of it sucks!

However, even asking the GT goers and top placers can be misleading. Every event is different, from the calibur of the top players, to the amount and type of terrain on each table to even the size of the tables and pts values.
The only really true way to gage any army's power level is to take 2 equally skilled players and give them set lists to play and repeat those games again to avoid the oddities of the dice. Then get them to swap out the GK's enemies to another army. rinse & repeat ad nausium!
Finally, bring in a terrible player, give them a highly efficient pre-made GK army, put them up against each of the top level players in turn and see the results. If your 'idiot monkey' makes it close/ties for example, you can safely say that GK's is on a level above other armies!

Then do that with every army in the game and you'll have an actual, valid set of 'tiers' to rank armies.

Gornall wrote:Personally, I think the GK is probably one of the best written books currently out there... It provides a lot of flexibility in what units you can take in your list and remain effective. It has multiple builds that can run with the big boys and do well. I do NOT think this is overpowered, though. The book has a very high "low-end" because most of the units are effective, so even a battleforce list isn't terrible. However, it's top-end builds are not any meaner than the top BA, SW, and IG builds.

A lot of the hypotheticals I have seen thrown around assume that the GK are going to have every single, possible unit in their list to counter anything any army could to them. That is just never going to be the case though. If you go Purifier spam, then you face tough matchups against shooty armies that can torrent your expensive dudes down. If you go heavy henchmen, then you might have a lot of stuff, but your troops die to a stiff breeze. Draigo-wing gets destroyed by tank shots/melta spam. EVERY army has bad matchups... even GKs. I have yet to see a single GK list posted anywhere that is an unbeatable list. I haven't even seen that many that my Space Marines army would hate more than SW/IG.

I agree that GK's and also SW's have likely the best internal balance of any other 5th ed codex - not a single unit can honestly be called a complete terd choice. Okay, so daemonhosts are pretty crap, but henchmen overall are still very good! And Blood Claws are far from a crap unit, just completely outdone by Grey Hunters when you're simply looking into pure 'efficientcy vs cost'
Every single unit in those books is viable on the table, where as every other codex has at least unit you really scratch your head and wonder why it's even printed in the book!

However, GK's have awful external balance;
- Their 'hard counters' to certain unit types are OTT. 'Winning Flame' for example would still be solid vs hordes if it only hit models in BtB contact and would stop 1 model from being able to pretty much auto-kill 2-3x it's pts cost worth of enemies. Likewise, the anti-daemon counters are outright unfair and just leave daemon players feeling butt-hurt for no real reason other than, "Well they're DAEMONHUNTERZ!1!!!11!" (Stern, dark ex, warp quake & truesilver armour - I'm looking squarely at you! )

- Cheap, OTT upgrades that just reak of being "upgrade X but awsumorz!" Would GK vehicles really be too expensive if Fortitude was even 10pts in total? Or would GK assault fall apart without the 'derp grenades? Do rad grenades really have to effect the instant death threashold when you can so easily combine them hammerhand or MoT? For that matter, do GK's really need to break the BRB rule about applying 2x strength bonuses before other bonuses stack?! Would warp quake honestly be garbage if it only had a 6" range from every model in said unit?!
Best of all, would psyflemen be over-costed if they had to pay 15-20pts for the psybolt ammo?!

- Arguably their 3 'best' bang-for-buck units can all be turned into easily spamable Troops choices. That more than anything can really turn people off of GK's. Most people would likely give their left nut to get that kind of flexability and instant access to such amazingly cost-effective units.
Purifyers or paladins aren't so bad when they compete with the other elites. What kills it is when you can take say purifyers with a techmarine in each squad and still work a small unit of pallies in there as well. Expensive sure, and limited to higher pts games. But honestly, if you're not running a gunline, what the hell do you do when you know your guns won't stop it all?!! (god forbid you're an assaulty army with fewer guns to begin with!)

Dark Eldar at least have the built-in check they can't get around; they're a total glass cannon. GK's combine MEQ goodness on top of being obnoxious to alot of armies.

Gornall wrote:And to be honest... saying that GKs destroy Nids doesn't make them OP. Is there a 5th Edition codex that doesn't ROFLstomp the Nid codex?

Well, Daemons don't auto roflstomp 'nids! It's actually quite a bloody mess most games which is pretty fitting imho! I also see codex marines that don't use vulkan have a harder time vs 'nids as well.

Tyranids problem lies in being hard done-by trying to deal with mechhammer armies. Balanced lists that forgo bringing 6-9+ transports AND tanks/walkers are pretty even match-ups for the bugs.

ShumaGorath wrote:I really don't understand this. What armies do you play against GKs? Didn't you earlier state that you didn't regularly play them? There are matchups where there is legitimate and serious unbalance. GKs vs dark angels can not be won by the dark angels without the knights making immense mistakes. Same with most tyranid builds. Codex marines vs GKs and most BA builds are in the same boat. Even dark eldar have an intensely difficult time with most GK builds.

SNIP

It is not balanced on all fronts. At all. It's not even close. Whether its overpowered or not isn't even relevant here (for "balance" concerns), its at it's barest an incredibly unbalanced book because it's basic equipment is an extreme derivation of a specialized weapon and it can wound allocate almost every model in its army at once.

I don't think I agree with the first part. My Vanilla Marines really don't hate GKs more than SW or IG or even DE. None of the GK builds I have seen online would cause me to make any adjustments to my list.... just my tactics. I also think that Mech BA matchups up well against most GK builds. FNP, lots of AV13, tons of melta, and even Furious Charge can all cause serious problems for GKs. When I take my GKs out for a spin (thus rendering my opinion invalid), the one thing I do NOT want to see across the table from me is a good DE army. Saying that GKs can stomp one of the oldest books (DA) and one of the worst new ones (Nids) does not equal GKs being overpowered. Same thing for GKs having lots of cool toys on their guys. NFWs and wound allocation does not necessarily equal OP.

I don't think I agree with the first part. My Vanilla Marines really don't hate GKs more than SW or IG or even DE.

They should. They do almost everything worse in almost every way. The costing between C:SM and SW/IG is ludicrous.

I also think that Mech BA matchups up well against most GK builds. FNP, lots of AV13, tons of melta, and even Furious Charge can all cause serious problems for GKs.

FC and FNP don't do particularly much to an army where every model has a power weapon. It is certainly a damper on their ranged superiority, but odds on psyfledreads killing baal preds is actually pretty good. If you're playing a foot heavy list with lots of devastators you could do very well, but in tournament meta that same list is going to probably lose before it gets to the top tables to particularly matter. One of the biggest strengths of the GKs is that popular anti mech builds don't work well against them and strong anti GK builds don't work well against mech.

As for FC, I don't really understand how it causes headaches. The majority of dangerous GK units in CC will be I6.

When I take my GKs out for a spin (thus rendering my opinion invalid), the one thing I do NOT want to see across the table from me is a good DE army.

Then you're probably playing the GKs wrong. They do interweaved fields of fire exceptionally well and can survive the alphastrike (thanks to shrouding) better than most codexes. Their standing against DE in a tournament setting is pretty consistent. They're an incredibly difficult match for popular mech deldar builds.

Saying that GKs can stomp one of the oldest books (DA) and one of the worst new ones (Nids) does not equal GKs being overpowered.

I also said codex marines and BA. I'll extend that to daemons, chaos, SOBs, and necrons.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I don't think I agree with the first part. My Vanilla Marines really don't hate GKs more than SW or IG or even DE.

They should. They do almost everything worse in almost every way. The costing between C:SM and SW/IG is ludicrous.

I also think that Mech BA matchups up well against most GK builds. FNP, lots of AV13, tons of melta, and even Furious Charge can all cause serious problems for GKs.

FC and FNP don't do particularly much to an army where every model has a power weapon. It is certainly a damper on their ranged superiority, but odds on psyfledreads killing baal preds is actually pretty good. If you're playing a foot heavy list with lots of devastators you could do very well, but in tournament meta that same list is going to probably lose before it gets to the top tables to particularly matter. One of the biggest strengths of the GKs is that popular anti mech builds don't work well against them and strong anti GK builds don't work well against mech.

As for FC, I don't really understand how it causes headaches. The majority of dangerous GK units in CC will be I6.

When I take my GKs out for a spin (thus rendering my opinion invalid), the one thing I do NOT want to see across the table from me is a good DE army.

Then you're probably playing the GKs wrong. They do interweaved fields of fire exceptionally well and can survive the alphastrike (thanks to shrouding) better than most codexes. Their standing against DE in a tournament setting is pretty consistent. They're an incredibly difficult match for popular mech deldar builds.

Saying that GKs can stomp one of the oldest books (DA) and one of the worst new ones (Nids) does not equal GKs being overpowered.

I also said codex marines and BA. I'll extend that to daemons, chaos, SOBs, and necrons.

uh um... excuse me good sir. My underpowered SoB are undefeated against GK at the moment a perfect 1-0

uh um... excuse me good sir. My underpowered SoB are undefeated against GK at the moment a perfect 1-0

There is only one possible explanation.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I don't think I agree with the first part. My Vanilla Marines really don't hate GKs more than SW or IG or even DE.

They should. They do almost everything worse in almost every way. The costing between C:SM and SW/IG is ludicrous.

I also think that Mech BA matchups up well against most GK builds. FNP, lots of AV13, tons of melta, and even Furious Charge can all cause serious problems for GKs.

FC and FNP don't do particularly much to an army where every model has a power weapon. It is certainly a damper on their ranged superiority, but odds on psyfledreads killing baal preds is actually pretty good. If you're playing a foot heavy list with lots of devastators you could do very well, but in tournament meta that same list is going to probably lose before it gets to the top tables to particularly matter. One of the biggest strengths of the GKs is that popular anti mech builds don't work well against them and strong anti GK builds don't work well against mech.

As for FC, I don't really understand how it causes headaches. The majority of dangerous GK units in CC will be I6.

When I take my GKs out for a spin (thus rendering my opinion invalid), the one thing I do NOT want to see across the table from me is a good DE army.

Then you're probably playing the GKs wrong. They do interweaved fields of fire exceptionally well and can survive the alphastrike (thanks to shrouding) better than most codexes.

Saying that GKs can stomp one of the oldest books (DA) and one of the worst new ones (Nids) does not equal GKs being overpowered.

I also said codex marines and BA. I'll extend that to daemons, chaos, SOBs, and necrons.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this then. Yeah, Vanilla Marines are showing their age a bit, but still have the tools to get the job done. I have never felt like any army is an auto-loss with my Marines and GKs have done nothing to change that. I just think that GKs are not any tougher of a matchup for them than SW, IG, DE, or BA.

I stand by my BA comments. FNP helps reduce the impact that Stormbolters and to a lesser extent Pyscannons have on the fight. Yeah, NFWs can be a pain, but you can use FC to strike before non-halberd units such as Strike Squads. The only things that are going to take halberds in serious numbers are Termies and Pallies which have to be shot to death. Yeah... the dangerous CC units cannot be killed by FCing BAs, but why wouldn't the BA player just shoot them instead. Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty. Also, BAs and SMs can bring cheap, effective Hoods to shut down powers.

And I still think DE can be a pain. Nightshields can really hurt the effectiveness of Pyscannons, and Lances can wreck vehicles or Termies/Pallies. Venoms make dismounted GK squads cry. If your opponent has a Libby and Shrouding... focus on the units outside the 6" bubble. You have speed and range, so pick a side and smash it. I think it's a tough matchup for both sides... which is how it should be.

Older books are old... more news at 10. Daemons, CSM, and DA all have problems with most 5th Edition books. GKs are nothing special in that regard.

NeutronPoison wrote:Well, my super-tailored anti-GKs is:

Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200

3 Hive Guard - 150
3 Hive Guard - 150
2 Hive Guard - 100

10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
7+1 Genestealers, Broodlord
6+1 Genestealers, Broodlord

Trygon - 200
Trygon - 200
Trygon, AG - 210

I've tabled Crowe / Purifiers / Dreads with this. It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon, or how little this Tyranids list actually needs the Trygons (once you've shot down the Trygons, the Tervigons, 'Stealers, buffed-up gaunts, and Hive Guard chew through Purifers pretty easily, since Cleansing Flame is more or less a non-factor under Shadow at Ld 7 due to 2 stacking Auras of Despair off of the Broodlords.

Granted, this list runs out of steam against SW and flails ineffectively against DE. I do think it exposes GKs weaknesses pretty nicely, though. I imagine Jump BA would present similar problems to Crowe / Purifier / Dreads (although maybe not to a Paladinstar).

My TAC is pretty different from this, and tends to wind up getting ground down by Psycannon fire against smart GKs players (not-so-smart GKs players don't keep their distance and get eaten in CC), but that's really more because of how many concessions I have to make just to feel like I have a chance against DE.

Alright for the masses this game has been scheduled on vassal:

alright so:

JY2's MSU mech purifier spam(per his request I will be running this list) vs above nids list on wednesday February 8th on vassal at 7:30 EST 8:30 CST. If you all would like to observe the game. The mission is modified annihilation. If one nid model survives the game he wins. Further info is listed in my previous post.

Tomb King wrote:
Alright for the masses this game has been scheduled on vassal:

alright so:

JY2's MSU mech purifier spam(per his request I will be running this list) vs above nids list on wednesday February 8th on vassal at 7:30 EST 8:30 CST. If you all would like to observe the game. The mission is modified annihilation. If one nid model survives the game he wins. Further info is listed in my previous post.

Cocky, aren't you?

pretre wrote:

Tomb King wrote:
Alright for the masses this game has been scheduled on vassal:

alright so:

JY2's MSU mech purifier spam(per his request I will be running this list) vs above nids list on wednesday February 8th on vassal at 7:30 EST 8:30 CST. If you all would like to observe the game. The mission is modified annihilation. If one nid model survives the game he wins. Further info is listed in my previous post.

Cocky, aren't you?

Im using GK's I am merely playing the roll

This game is pretty much codex vs codex. I have never used GK's before.

Hhhmm not sure that mentioned nid list has enough sitw, big enough cover squads, etc. Id prefer to add doom, zoanthropes, trygon primes and swarmlord. Interested to hear the result tomb king.

Draigo wrote:Hhhmm not sure that mentioned nid list has enough sitw, big enough cover squads, etc. Id prefer to add doom, zoanthropes, trygon primes and swarmlord. Interested to hear the result tomb king.

For those that dont make it I plan on doing a complete battle report.

Tomb King wrote:For those that dont make it I plan on doing a complete battle report.

I intend to do the same. If you want, I can make a google doc and we can each narrate our own turn? Also, I've figured out how to save replays with Vassal, so we might as well distribute those too.

I figure as long as this thread has lasted 30 pages, we might as well make a spectacle of it, lol.

They're obviously very powerful, but overpowered? What would that mean?

I've never lost a game to Grey Knights because they just don't have the numbers to keep up a war of attrition. On the other hand, they all have force weapons, excellent guns, and the Dreadknight. But all of these advantages basically boil down to having better elites than everyone else and being able to kill everyone else's elites really well.

The flip side: they just cannot win or even tie against my 150+ model green tide army. They simply do not have the numbers to kick out enough fire, or to hold objectives, or to even survive a round of CC.

So I would proffer that GK is not overpowered (whatever that is), but may be advantaged when playing against other small, elite armies.

erewego86 wrote:
I've never lost a game to Grey Knights because they just don't have the numbers to keep up a war of attrition. On the other hand, they all have force weapons, excellent guns, and the Dreadknight. But all of these advantages basically boil down to having better elites than everyone else and being able to kill everyone else's elites really well.

The flip side: they just cannot win or even tie against my 150+ model green tide army. They simply do not have the numbers to kick out enough fire, or to hold objectives, or to even survive a round of CC.

Horde armies such as 150+ ultra-cuddly orks got to watch out for purifiers. Do you play against purifiers?

erewego86 wrote:They're obviously very powerful, but overpowered? What would that mean?

I've never lost a game to Grey Knights because they just don't have the numbers to keep up a war of attrition. On the other hand, they all have force weapons, excellent guns, and the Dreadknight. But all of these advantages basically boil down to having better elites than everyone else and being able to kill everyone else's elites really well.

The flip side: they just cannot win or even tie against my 150+ model green tide army. They simply do not have the numbers to kick out enough fire, or to hold objectives, or to even survive a round of CC.

So I would proffer that GK is not overpowered (whatever that is), but may be advantaged when playing against other small, elite armies.

Omg just saw your name. Did you see that superbowl commercial with the dog? If you had a dog like that you would be king.

I think that the reason that GK seems so overpowered is because they are/were likely the first 6th ed. codex.

I think that the reason that GK seems so overpowered is because they are/were likely the first 6th ed. codex.

I believe Necrons where the first real 6th Edition codex. The most obvious, anyway. I'm not sure GW thinks that far ahead, but I like to think so.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Overall, GK are very balanced on all fronts. Unless your army is super specialised in one department, then you will find it hard to win against GK.

I really don't understand this. What armies do you play against GKs? Didn't you earlier state that you didn't regularly play them? There are matchups where there is legitimate and serious unbalance. GKs vs dark angels can not be won by the dark angels without the knights making immense mistakes. Same with most tyranid builds. Codex marines vs GKs and most BA builds are in the same boat. Even dark eldar have an intensely difficult time with most GK builds. These aren't outliars, these are repetitious and played out scenarios that has lead to an anti GK backlash that was much worse than the anti IG or lashwhip chaos backlashes were. There are numerous items in that book (halberds, psychotropes, psycanons, etc) that are commonly considered overpowered and undercosted and the book is an entire army based on force weapons which is inherently unbalancing at it's barest level as it ignores two defensive strategems that many armies rely on.

It is not balanced on all fronts. At all. It's not even close. Whether its overpowered or not isn't even relevant here (for "balance" concerns), its at it's barest an incredibly unbalanced book because it's basic equipment is an extreme derivation of a specialized weapon and it can wound allocate almost every model in its army at once.

I played kanwall orks, av13/razorback mech BA, Space wolf shotty list and IG mech. (look for my topics in army lists or just the topics i posted to see their army lists) I use purifer rhino spam. "earlier" that much been ages ago, I have now recently started testing them out again every competitive lists from all armies. Dark angel is not that good a codex, deathwing or ravenwing is not enough to win. However, if your gonna call a codex is most overpowered then it must be compared with the top lists. e.g. space wolf, blood angel, dark eldar, IG

From the current games,

GK won agaist IG by a bit because they are so anti mech. (IG went first)
GK lost to orks by 1 KP, ended turn 5 if there were 1 more turn they would lost by 2 KP (GK went first)
GK won vs BA by 5 KP
GK won against SW by 3 KP

Draigo wrote:@marthike

The last few have been on topic. They were discussing the points made that GK made certain armies completely unviable. The points were they can be or could not be so saying that the people are inexp or dont know is not accurate just because they have differing opinions.

pretre wrote:

Tomb King wrote:
Alright for the masses this game has been scheduled on vassal:

alright so:

JY2's MSU mech purifier spam(per his request I will be running this list) vs above nids list on wednesday February 8th on vassal at 7:30 EST 8:30 CST. If you all would like to observe the game. The mission is modified annihilation. If one nid model survives the game he wins. Further info is listed in my previous post.

Cocky, aren't you?

Kairos wrote:1 - Their basic strike squad is 4 pts more than a tactical Marine.

And substantially worse as a unit. Grey Knight Strike Squads are IMO one of the worst Troops choices in the game.

Kairos wrote:2 - Aegis on everything & reinforced Aegis on the Psyriflemen.

This does nothing in most games.

Kairos wrote:3 - Purifiers (that can easily be spammed) Orks & Tyranids don't have an answer if the GK player is skilled. DE close combat armies are also invalidated.

Orks? Shoot them. Tyranids? Shadow in the Warp. DE close combat armies? Shoot them. Also, remember-- if you have an army with no solutions to armies that can beat them in CC, then you have a bad army.

Kairos wrote:4 - Fortitude

Fortitude is indeed very strong. It's probably the strongest element of the Codex.

Kairos wrote:5 - Force Weapons on every model (this is way, way nasty and it is basically provided for free)

Force Weapons are not particularly strong in this edition. Grey Knights are difficult to defeat with

Kairos wrote:6 - Summoning a Land Raider filled with Grey Knights into your opponents deployment zone

So it can eat melta and die? Why?

Kairos wrote:7 - Psyriflemen - This single unit drastically dropped the DE Codex power level

Psyflemen are strong but not unstoppable. Other units that already exist in other books are much stronger in this role-- Hydras, for instance.

Kairos wrote:8 - Librarian - Psychic powers are too powerful and undercosted

Uh, no? Space Marine Librarians have powers that are debatably better for far fewer points. Grey Knight Librarians are good, but Null Zone and Gate of Infinity are still unparalleled.

Kairos wrote:9 - Paladin wound allocation

I don't really find this a significant threat. Your mileage may vary, but Nob Bikers aren't really scary anymore, and Nob Bikers 2.0 (now with worse saves and slower movement!) aren't exactly scaring me, even though their shooting power is admittedly quite strong.

Kairos wrote:10 - Paladin's are virtually untouchable in close combat, except against huge units of Bloodcrushers

What about TH/SS Terminators?

Kairos wrote:11 - Warp Quake spam

This sucks for some armies, but has no effect in the majority of games. Also, the armies that Warp Quake spam is good against-- most notably DoA-- aren't viable against Grey Knights anyway. In general, DoA armies do very poorly against armies that can beat them in assault, Warp Quake or no Warp Quake.

Kairos wrote:12 - Teleport Shunting

Post-FAQ, this is entirely balanced and reasonable.

Kairos wrote:13 - Psychotroke Grenades & Rad Grenades

These are very strong but can often be avoided or picked off.

Kairos wrote:14 - Henchmen armies are open to all kinds of build abuse

Like what, making a bad version of an IG army?

Kairos wrote:Can they be beat? Absolutely, but they will win far more often than they will loose. They also hard counter many different builds and grossly unbalanced the overall meta game for the worse. In the hands of a really good player with a deep knowledge of the game, they are beyond broken, and if that player can do any list tailoring before a game; forget it.

I shifted two or three units in my list when Grey Knights came out-- just as I shifted two or three units in my list when the Necrons came out recently. New books obviously change the game, but claiming that it's a change for the worse seems to be a rather myopic view. Overall, I think Grey Knights are a book like any other. Just as I had to adjust my list and tactics to deal with Necron Scarabs, I had to adjust my list and tactics to deal with Psyflemen outclassing my Riflemen and with the plethora of psychic powers available to the Knights-- but following these changes, I definitely think my vanilla Marine army can hang with the GK. Overall, I think a lot of these things are just attitude problems. An adaptive player will in most cases be able to shift their build and/or tactics to deal with "new kids on the block" quite easily, especially in the relatively balanced days of 5th edition.

And substantially worse as a unit. Grey Knight Strike Squads are IMO one of the worst Troops choices in the game.

In what bizzaro universe are they worse than tactical marines? How? How can they be worse? What role do they perform in an inferior capacity at cost?

Saying they're the worst troop choice is a bit of an overstatement. There are still guardians and hormagaunts out there.

Dok wrote:Saying they're the worst troop choice is a bit of an overstatement. There are still guardians and hormagaunts out there.

And tactical marines, scouts, firewarriors, thousand suns, the list goes on.

Tactical marines are not the worst troop choice for C:SM. They are by far the best choice. Scouts are terrible. If you want to go back to unit comparison, a tactical squad would wipe the floor with anyone on that list with the exception of thousand sons. The only problem with thousand sons is that they are prohibitively costed for a low return on firepower.

Tac marines beat Strikes in three major ways:
Long Range Fire-
Free Missile Launcher or a Las Cannon is a great option I wish I could have as a GK player.

Affordability-
A ten man tac with minimal upgrades is always going to be less expensive than a Strike Squad, who really only best the Tacs in close combat, which is not something either side is trying to get out of their troop choices.

Flexibility-
A tac squad with a Las Cannon and a Fist is an immensely versitile unit that is still less expensive than even an ungeared Strike unit. A tac unit in a pod can come down and snap up late game objectives, which is something Strikes will never do. Tac marines will always contribute something to the game, wheras Strike units are generally only taken as 5hp Psycannons that huddle on objectives trying not to die.

This is all academic, anyhow, because competitive GK troop choices generally involve Paladins, Crow Tax Purifiers, or Henchmen derps, anyhow. Anyone actually running strikes is doing you a favor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ps- Strikes are definately not the worst Troop choice in the game, but they are certainly among the worst MEQ ones. Xenos troop choices just suck all the way around and there is no changing that any time soon.

ShumaGorath wrote:

And substantially worse as a unit. Grey Knight Strike Squads are IMO one of the worst Troops choices in the game.

In what bizzaro universe are they worse than tactical marines? How? How can they be worse? What role do they perform in an inferior capacity at cost?

Tactical Marines are a solid core unit. They use both available transports effectively, have weapon options that synergize well with Combat Squads, can use the amazing Combat Tactics rule to avoid giving enemy assault elements a "pit stop" or jumping-off point, etc. Grey Knight Strike Squads pay a lot of points for things they don't use, don't use transports effectively, don't synergize well with other options, and aren't even good at sitting on objectives since they cost so much and don't have long-range weapons.

Dok wrote:Saying they're the worst troop choice is a bit of an overstatement. There are still guardians and hormagaunts out there.

That's fair. I think GKSS are basically objectively worse than Purifiers, though, so taking them seems like more of an error than taking hormagaunts-- most of the time when I see GKSS, I think "well, I guess this person didn't look at the costs for Purifiers." While GKSS might not be the worst overall Troops choice, they strike me as a very underwhelming choice both in comparison to other MEQ Troops and in comparison to other options in their own Codex.

Tac marines beat Strikes in three major ways:
Long Range Fire-
Free Missile Launcher or a Las Cannon is a great option I wish I could have as a GK player.

Oh, you want a 170 point (minium) missile launcher instead of two str8 twin linked autocanons that can move and fire for like 50 less? I'm sure you that ap3 will make all the difference in the world.

Affordability- A ten man tac with minimal upgrades is always going to be less expensive than a Strike Squad, who really only best the Tacs in close combat, which is not something either side is trying to get out of their troop choices.

And shooting. Mobility. Versatility. Usefulness. If all I wanted tacs for was the ability to absorb and put out anti infantry firepower then they'd be great (well, no, they're actually bad at that for cost too). It's too bad being a cheap bullet sink that loses to almost everything in close combat is actually a pretty bad thing to be in warhammer 40k. (also the strikes win against them in shooting too).

Flexibility-
A tac squad with a Las Cannon and a Fist is an immensely versitile unit that is still less expensive than even an ungeared Strike unit.

Actually it's the same cost. 4 points per model more for strikes = 40. 25+15 for unit upgrades = 40. As for "immensely versatile" thats true. It's also very bad at every role it could be conceived to have for it's cost. It's a poor generalist in a game where generalist units are already bad by design.

This is all academic, anyhow, because competitive GK troop choices generally involve Paladins, Crow Tax Purifiers, or Henchmen derps, anyhow. Anyone actually running strikes is doing you a favor.

And competitive marine lists usually feature minimum tactical squads with no scouts. Running tacs doesn't do you a favor either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tactical Marines are a solid core unit. They use both available transports effectively, have weapon options that synergize well with Combat Squads, can use the amazing Combat Tactics rule to avoid giving enemy assault elements a "pit stop" or jumping-off point, etc.

No, not really. They use razorbacks poorly. You can't razorspam with the list since you need 10 for special weapons and that forces combat squadding which ups kill points. They have weapon options that force combat squads which again, is a downside in killpoints missions. They also overpay for poor stats and an incredibly poor level of CC ability for their cost and given role. As for combat tactics, it's great in theory, but in practice is nigh useless. Against even a remotely skilled player it will never occur and half the time your units will be running off the board edge if you try since mid fielding them is suicide thanks to their uselessness in combat.

Grey Knight Strike Squads pay a lot of points for things they don't use, don't use transports effectively, don't synergize well with other options, and aren't even good at sitting on objectives since they cost so much and don't have long-range weapons.

Which is why they are used differently. Also, please stop stating that paying 170 points for a missile launcher is "effective" or "useful". It's not. It's a joke. Besides, the strikes aren't for holding backfield, thats where the scoring psyfledread sits.

ShumaGorath wrote:

And substantially worse as a unit. Grey Knight Strike Squads are IMO one of the worst Troops choices in the game.

In what bizzaro universe are they worse than tactical marines? How? How can they be worse? What role do they perform in an inferior capacity at cost?

Both of you complaining here have you seen Battle Sisters? lol

Tomb King wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

And substantially worse as a unit. Grey Knight Strike Squads are IMO one of the worst Troops choices in the game.

In what bizzaro universe are they worse than tactical marines? How? How can they be worse? What role do they perform in an inferior capacity at cost?

Both of you complaining here have you seen Battle Sisters? lol

Technically they have a much lower cost per special weapon and against most armies are equally durable (that toughness and strength don't mean much in the face of missile spam, IG templates, and hammerhand). I'd take sisters over tacs. They're better at their only useful role (melta drops and spammability) then tacs are at theirs (backfield objective squatting).

Neither are great mind you. Ones just more specialized and cheaper then the other.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

And substantially worse as a unit. Grey Knight Strike Squads are IMO one of the worst Troops choices in the game.

In what bizzaro universe are they worse than tactical marines? How? How can they be worse? What role do they perform in an inferior capacity at cost?

Both of you complaining here have you seen Battle Sisters? lol

Technically they have a much lower cost per special weapon and against most armies are equally durable (that toughness and strength don't mean much in the face of missile spam, IG templates, and hammerhand). I'd take sisters over tacs. They're better at their only useful role (melta drops and spammability) then tacs are at theirs (backfield objective squatting).

Neither are great mind you. Ones just more specialized and cheaper then the other.

lol look at the point cost then apply the ability to take powerfist etc.. and the fact that marines can combat squad and have ATSKNF and for the final nail.. they can only be taken in numbers of 10 and are the only troop choice available with a MM as the longest range anti-tank weapon available.

On a side note about sisters.. Those organ tanks are obnoxious when running a walking pally list when your opponent keeps rollin 5-6s shots with all 3..

lol look at the point cost then apply the ability to take powerfist etc.. and the fact that marines can combat squad and have ATSKNF and for the final nail..

You're adding cost and upgrades to a unit with no active role and who, even with that fist, will lose in combat to almost every other commonly taken unit in the game. (those upgrades also make them much more expensive then a double melta sisters squad and those upgrades are required.

they can only be taken in numbers of 10 and are the only troop choice available with a MM as the longest range anti-tank weapon available.

If you're using them to stand and shoot beyond 24" then you're using them very wrong. They're sacrificial scoring speedbumps with numerous melta weapons. Thats about it. Oddly, thats all tacticals are in most competitive marine lists except they do it worse and more expensively. Comparing them to things like BA assault marines or grey hunters highlights how bad the sisters are at cost, but the same comparisons make the tacs look like rotten fruit.

Sisters know what they want to do. They have a role and for what they cost they do it ok. The tacticals have no role and do their varied tasks poorly. They're too pricey to squat on an objective, they get to few specials to melta drop, they get too few heavy weapons to be a ranged threat for their cost, and they're too fragile to tank assaults or be a buffer.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Tac marines beat Strikes in three major ways:
Long Range Fire-
Free Missile Launcher or a Las Cannon is a great option I wish I could have as a GK player.

Oh, you want a 170 point (minium) missile launcher instead of two str8 twin linked autocanons that can move and fire for like 50 less? I'm sure you that ap3 will make all the difference in the world.

It's not a "170 point missile launcher." In most cases, it's an 80 point missile launcher that also scores. Is it efficient to take Tactical squads for their ability to shoot missile launchers? Trivially no. Is it efficient to take Tactical squads for their ability to score while also projecting some long-range firepower? Trivially yes.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Affordability- A ten man tac with minimal upgrades is always going to be less expensive than a Strike Squad, who really only best the Tacs in close combat, which is not something either side is trying to get out of their troop choices.

And shooting. Mobility. Versatility. Usefulness. If all I wanted tacs for was the ability to absorb and put out anti infantry firepower then they'd be great (well, no, they're actually bad at that for cost too). It's too bad being a cheap bullet sink that loses to almost everything in close combat is actually a pretty bad thing to be in warhammer 40k. (also the strikes win against them in shooting too).

Tacs don't "lose to almost everything in close combat." They have above average CC ability. Are they worse than Assault Marines or Grey Hunters in assault? Sure-- that's not their role, after all-- but Tacs can still whomp on Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Necrons, and even Orks in a pinch, as well as many Tyranid and Eldar units.

ShumaGorath wrote:And competitive marine lists usually feature minimum tactical squads with no scouts. Running tacs doesn't do you a favor either.

I've never seen a competitive non-biker marine list in a serious competitive points bracket that didn't have 20+ Tactical Marines.

ShumaGorath wrote:They use razorbacks poorly.

That's not true. Just because you can't spam them doesn't mean you use them poorly. Combat Squads combine naturally with Razorbacks to form a very effective set of units for your Troops slot.

ShumaGorath wrote:You can't razorspam with the list

Razorspam isn't a good army.

ShumaGorath wrote:They have weapon options that force combat squads

Which you don't have to use. The old standby is 10 Tactical Marines, meltagun, multi-melta, Sergeant with combi-melta, Rhino with dozer blade. This unit is very powerful with or without Combat Squads and exerts good control of the middle of the board. It's not "forced" to use Combat Squads-- you use Combat Squads to adapt to the situation and opponent.

ShumaGorath wrote:They also overpay for poor stats and an incredibly poor level of CC ability for their cost and given role.

I think MEQs have neither "poor stats" nor "an incredibly poor level of CC ability for their cost." Even a few Marines can easily take out squads from other armies in CC.

ShumaGorath wrote:As for combat tactics, it's great in theory, but in practice is nigh useless.

You may be using it wrong.

ShumaGorath wrote:Against even a remotely skilled player it will never occur

Yes, because skilled players roll better in CC?

ShumaGorath wrote:and half the time your units will be running off the board edge if you try since mid fielding them is suicide thanks to their uselessness in combat.

If you think that Tactical squads are bad in midfield, you're bad at playing Space Marines.

Also, please stop stating that paying 170 points for a missile launcher is "effective" or "useful". It's not. It's a joke.

I've never said that, and I don't pay 170 for a missile launcher. You have to view the unit as a whole.

ShumaGorath wrote:Besides, the strikes aren't for holding backfield, thats where the scoring psyfledread sits.

Scoring Psyflemen aren't too good. They require specific HQs, can't be reliably fielded in numbers, and make the opponent's target priority completely trivial.

Draigo wrote:On a side note about sisters.. Those organ tanks are obnoxious when running a walking pally list when your opponent keeps rollin 5-6s shots with all 3..

I've said this before, but everytime I go to a tournament with my Sisters I cross my fingers and hope for terminator armies with Draigo right at the top.

They just don't stand a chance.

Yeah. Sisters are dramatically underrated-- if not for the incredible costs associated with collecting them I would field a Sisters army myself.

Fetterkey wrote:Yeah. Sisters are dramatically underrated-- if not for the incredible costs associated with collecting them I would field a Sisters army myself.

So as not to derail, we have a thread re: this already:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/427233.page

It's not a "170 point missile launcher." In most cases, it's an 80 point missile launcher that also scores. Is it efficient to take Tactical squads for their ability to shoot missile launchers? Trivially no. Is it efficient to take Tactical squads for their ability to score while also projecting some long-range firepower? Trivially yes.

They'll be spending half that game either going to ground to avoid losing everyone to two plasma canon shots or moving so that their static 80 point missile (which is still a terrible point value) can see something. Lone marine missile launchers aren't a particularly viable or valuable shooting platform. It's icing on a cake made of trash.

Tacs don't "lose to almost everything in close combat." They have above average CC ability.

Not for what they cost.

Are they worse than Assault Marines or Grey Hunters in assault? Sure-- that's not their role, after all-- but Tacs can still whomp on Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Necrons, and even Orks in a pinch, as well as many Tyranid and Eldar units.

Which Tyranid or dark eldar units? Certainly not any of the ones they'd ever actually be in assault with. Oddly, thats true of necrons and IG as well. Tacs tie necrons statistically one on one and lose to basic warriors at cost. It's pathetic. What are tacs beating? Basic guardians? 5 man termagaunt squads? Unsupported dark eldar warriors? That sure sounds useful.

I've never seen a competitive non-biker marine list in a serious competitive points bracket that didn't have 20+ Tactical Marines.

Thats because in the game of warhammer 40k you need 2 troops choices.

That's not true. Just because you can't spam them doesn't mean you use them poorly.

It does actually. Razorspam works because MSU provides too many weaponized targets for the average army to engage efficiently. When you have 3 razorbacks suddenly its a lot easier. Razors aren't great for the cost in low numbers. A 70 point lascanon on av11 is kinda lame and razors are bad dedicated transport vehicles.

Which you don't have to use. The old standby is 10 Tactical Marines, meltagun, multi-melta, Sergeant with combi-melta, Rhino with dozer blade. This unit is very powerful with or without Combat Squads

No. It isn't. Not for 250 points. It's actually god awful for 250 points. You know whats around 250? 30 boyz. w/nob, 20 necron warriors, 10 strikes in a rhino, 5 grey hunters and 10 long fangs, 6 GK terminators, 25 hormugaunts with poison, 10 BA assault marines in a rhino with all equipment. Theres no making that cost look good for that unit. Almost every other army gets something similar in use and better.

I think MEQs have neither "poor stats" nor "an incredibly poor level of CC ability for their cost." Even a few Marines can easily take out squads from other armies in CC.

A tac marine at 17 PPM base 170/10) has 1 attack. You get 3 ork boyz for that. Thats 9 attacks, 12 on the charge. You get 1.2 grey hunters, thats 2-3 attacks. You get 2 hormugaunts, thats 4 attacks, 6 on the charge. Where exactly are they good or comparable to these units? Hell, IG vets have more CC output then marines at cost. Thats truly pathetic.

You may be using it wrong.

Nope, it's just an overtrumped and poor ability that most marine armies scoring well in tournaments don't even have access to.

Yes, because skilled players roll better in CC?

No, because good players don't cause trivial casualties to a squad and thus let you freely fall back when they're setting up for an assault.

If you think that Tactical squads are bad in midfield, you're bad at playing Space Marines.

I'm sure spending 2 turns to set up midfield (thus not shooting that heavy weapon turning them into overcosted and much worse gray hunters) and then being assaulted (and losing because they aren't gray hunters) is what great marine players do every day. Sure.

I've never said that, and I don't pay 170 for a missile launcher. You have to view the unit as a whole.

As a whole it's poor.

Scoring Psyflemen aren't too good. They require specific HQs, can't be reliably fielded in numbers, and make the opponent's target priority completely trivial.

As opposed to sitting with 5 marines in the back as you were advocating? Come now. Do better than that.

Tomb King wrote:

NeutronPoison wrote:Well, my super-tailored anti-GKs is:

Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200

3 Hive Guard - 150
3 Hive Guard - 150
2 Hive Guard - 100

10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
7+1 Genestealers, Broodlord
6+1 Genestealers, Broodlord

Trygon - 200
Trygon - 200
Trygon, AG - 210

I've tabled Crowe / Purifiers / Dreads with this. It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon, or how little this Tyranids list actually needs the Trygons (once you've shot down the Trygons, the Tervigons, 'Stealers, buffed-up gaunts, and Hive Guard chew through Purifers pretty easily, since Cleansing Flame is more or less a non-factor under Shadow at Ld 7 due to 2 stacking Auras of Despair off of the Broodlords.

Granted, this list runs out of steam against SW and flails ineffectively against DE. I do think it exposes GKs weaknesses pretty nicely, though. I imagine Jump BA would present similar problems to Crowe / Purifier / Dreads (although maybe not to a Paladinstar).

My TAC is pretty different from this, and tends to wind up getting ground down by Psycannon fire against smart GKs players (not-so-smart GKs players don't keep their distance and get eaten in CC), but that's really more because of how many concessions I have to make just to feel like I have a chance against DE.

Alright for the masses this game has been scheduled on vassal:

alright so:

JY2's MSU mech purifier spam(per his request I will be running this list) vs above nids list on wednesday February 8th on vassal at 7:30 EST 8:30 CST. If you all would like to observe the game. The mission is modified annihilation. If one nid model survives the game he wins. Further info is listed in my previous post.

That's going to be a tough battle for the GK's. One of the few armies I actually have problems with with my Crowe-Purifiers are tervigon-nids. You may be able to beat him, but unless his generalship is really bad, a board-wipe is highly unlikely. As a matter of fact, it's going to be a tough fight just to win the game.

jy2 wrote:That's going to be a tough battle for the GK's. One of the few armies I actually have problems with with my Crowe-Purifiers are tervigon-nids. You may be able to beat him, but unless his generalship is really bad, a board-wipe is highly unlikely. As a matter of fact, it's going to be a tough fight just to win the game.

I told him he was being cocky.

Not like vassal or single games prove much anyways, but it is in good fun.

Wow, never thought that I´d actually wholeheartedly agree with shuma but the dude is right.

Tactical marines are awesome.

Combat squadding is amazing. The kill points issue is massively, massively overrated. It is not easy to kill 25 marines sitting in the back shooting missiles at things, and it is not easy to get the heavy weapons to stop shooting: you need to focus enough ranged anti-infantry to kill 5 marines just to stop 1 missile launcher from shooting (compare to Long Fangs - 5 dead LF = 4 dead missiles).

At the same time, you've got 5 rhinos with double-melta squads in them getting in your opponent's face. The really important thing is that you don't care about sacrificing the melta squads - you've got 5 more scoring units!

Tac marines being bad in CC is a bonus. It means they rarely get wiped out, but they usually lose combat. Losing combat is awesome, because you get to run away!

<text redacted --Janthkin>

Janthkin wrote:Because people don't seem to understand, a moderation note:

We don't close threads that continue to garner polite and topical conversation.

We do sanction posters who drag threads off-topic (including repeated cries to close a thread), or are rude to other posters.

If you don't have something topical to add to a thread, don't post.

If you don't care to read a thread, don't click on it.

NeutronPoison wrote:Tactical marines are awesome.

Combat squadding is amazing. The kill points issue is massively, massively overrated. It is not easy to kill 25 marines sitting in the back shooting missiles at things, and it is not easy to get the heavy weapons to stop shooting: you need to focus enough ranged anti-infantry to kill 5 marines just to stop 1 missile launcher from shooting (compare to Long Fangs - 5 dead LF = 4 dead missiles).

At the same time, you've got 5 rhinos with double-melta squads in them getting in your opponent's face. The really important thing is that you don't care about sacrificing the melta squads - you've got 5 more scoring units!

Tac marines being bad in CC is a bonus. It means they rarely get wiped out, but they usually lose combat. Losing combat is awesome, because you get to run away!

You just described a 1250 point army with almost no ranged firepower and who will get rolled by one th/ss terminator squad.

Straw man for the win!

I was comparing Tac Marines directly to Strike Squads, not Psyflemen, Greyhunters, BA Assault Marines, or any of the other half dozen well known power units people are pulling out of their ass to make Tac Marines look bad. Tacs get more for their points than Strikes do. This is not even debatable. A tac unit with a missle launcher and fist (or Melta/Fist in a pod) has more tactical applications than a similarly costed Strike Squad, purely in anti-mech ranged options alone. The Strikes kill one or two more MEQs per round of close combat, but they bring nothing else to the table and a ten man Tac squad is not rendered suddenly useless when the enemy moves 25" away.

But, hey feel free to score some epeen points by bagging on me by making unrelated comparissons. And also, there isn't a non MEQ book out there that wouldn't kill to have Tactical Marines as a troop choice. Xenos troop choice make Tac Marines look like Purifiers.

Phazael wrote:Straw man for the win!

I was comparing Tac Marines directly to Strike Squads, not Psyflemen, Greyhunters, BA Assault Marines, or any of the other half dozen well known power units people are pulling out of their ass to make Tac Marines look bad. Tacs get more for their points than Strikes do. This is not even debatable. A tac unit with a missle launcher and fist (or Melta/Fist in a pod) has more tactical applications than a similarly costed Strike Squad, purely in anti-mech ranged options alone. The Strikes kill one or two more MEQs per round of close combat, but they bring nothing else to the table and a ten man Tac squad is not rendered suddenly useless when the enemy moves 25" away.

But, hey feel free to score some epeen points by bagging on me by making unrelated comparissons. And also, there isn't a non MEQ book out there that wouldn't kill to have Tactical Marines as a troop choice. Xenos troop choice make Tac Marines look like Purifiers.

I don't think you know what a straw man argument is.

Phazael wrote:Straw man for the win!

I was comparing Tac Marines directly to Strike Squads, not Psyflemen, Greyhunters, BA Assault Marines, or any of the other half dozen well known power units people are pulling out of their ass to make Tac Marines look bad. Tacs get more for their points than Strikes do. This is not even debatable. A tac unit with a missle launcher and fist (or Melta/Fist in a pod) has more tactical applications than a similarly costed Strike Squad, purely in anti-mech ranged options alone. The Strikes kill one or two more MEQs per round of close combat, but they bring nothing else to the table and a ten man Tac squad is not rendered suddenly useless when the enemy moves 25" away.

But, hey feel free to score some epeen points by bagging on me by making unrelated comparissons. And also, there isn't a non MEQ book out there that wouldn't kill to have Tactical Marines as a troop choice. Xenos troop choice make Tac Marines look like Purifiers.

I gotta side with Shuma here, as much as it pains me to do so. You keep throwing the powerfist around like it's amazing, what about a demon hammer? That's just a better powerfist, especially when paired with hammer-hand which makes it S10, and it's CHEAPER. The psycannons add much flexibility; used in a stand and shoot profile they are basically the best weapon in the game that is infantry borne. It works well combined with storm bolters in anti-infantry and can be used in a pinch against all levels of armor as well. It's even effective on the move out to 24" for crying out loud.

Okay, I'd say the Tacticals are more effective against AV13 and with a missile >30" ranges but the strikes will out shoot them with storm-bolters, will tear them apart in assault with force weapons, which combined with hammer hand makes their melee attacks 4 times as effective against MeQ as normal marines (3 times w/o HH), 8 times more effective against FnP MeQ and still overall better against everything else. They are still force weapons as well, which means MCs are significantly easier to gib. They both have ATSKNF and combat squads, so that's a wash. That leaves Warp-quake vs combat tactics. Both situational and not easy to compare but I'd take a proactive "Deep-strike screw up" versus a "Lewl, we screwed, run 'fer it" skill any day.

10 Tacticals, Melta-gun, MM or missile, powerfist, combi-melta, rhino with dozer = ~250
10 Strikes, 2 Psycannons, Demon-hammer, rhino with dozer = 275

25 points for hammer-hand, storm bolters, force weapons, warp quake, fortitude on the rhino, psyk-out grenades, Aegis and all the bonuses against demons as icing on the cake. For another 20 points those storm bolters become a threat to rhinos, and a serious threat to AV10.

I'm not claiming Strikes are the best troops around, because they aren't, but tactical marines are basically the worst 5th edition troops in the game ATM.

Edit; forgot psyk-out grenades!

A tac unit with a missle launcher and fist (or Melta/Fist in a pod) has more tactical applications than a similarly costed Strike Squad, purely in anti-mech ranged options alone.

I agree with shuma too.

The tac is better at AV duty beyond 24´ but that is it. There is no other benefit to the tac over a strike squad.
Well there is one more thing the tac does better and it is being more durable then the strike squad since tehy both go down just as easy but the tac costs less.
If you want to hunt armour with deepstrike the tac squad all of a sudden becomes just as costly as the strike squad.
The strike squad is far far faaar better at horde and infantry then the tac.
The strike is better at anti armour as well but only within 24´.

Facing each others of point for point like in example having 4 tac squads meet 3 strike squads on the table the tac army will be utterly chanceless against the strikes.

pretre wrote:

Draigo wrote:On a side note about sisters.. Those organ tanks are obnoxious when running a walking pally list when your opponent keeps rollin 5-6s shots with all 3..

I've said this before, but everytime I go to a tournament with my Sisters I cross my fingers and hope for terminator armies with Draigo right at the top.

They just don't stand a chance.

This makes me want to take my Draigowing up against Amerikon's Battle Sisters this upcoming Thurs.

I find it kind of fun to play an "underdog" army sometimes.

The tac is better at AV duty beyond 24´ but that is it. There is no other benefit to the tac over a strike squad.

Price comes to mind....

jy2 wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

NeutronPoison wrote:Well, my super-tailored anti-GKs is:

Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200

3 Hive Guard - 150
3 Hive Guard - 150
2 Hive Guard - 100

10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
7+1 Genestealers, Broodlord
6+1 Genestealers, Broodlord

Trygon - 200
Trygon - 200
Trygon, AG - 210

I've tabled Crowe / Purifiers / Dreads with this. It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon, or how little this Tyranids list actually needs the Trygons (once you've shot down the Trygons, the Tervigons, 'Stealers, buffed-up gaunts, and Hive Guard chew through Purifers pretty easily, since Cleansing Flame is more or less a non-factor under Shadow at Ld 7 due to 2 stacking Auras of Despair off of the Broodlords.

Granted, this list runs out of steam against SW and flails ineffectively against DE. I do think it exposes GKs weaknesses pretty nicely, though. I imagine Jump BA would present similar problems to Crowe / Purifier / Dreads (although maybe not to a Paladinstar).

My TAC is pretty different from this, and tends to wind up getting ground down by Psycannon fire against smart GKs players (not-so-smart GKs players don't keep their distance and get eaten in CC), but that's really more because of how many concessions I have to make just to feel like I have a chance against DE.

Alright for the masses this game has been scheduled on vassal:

alright so:

JY2's MSU mech purifier spam(per his request I will be running this list) vs above nids list on wednesday February 8th on vassal at 7:30 EST 8:30 CST. If you all would like to observe the game. The mission is modified annihilation. If one nid model survives the game he wins. Further info is listed in my previous post.

That's going to be a tough battle for the GK's. One of the few armies I actually have problems with with my Crowe-Purifiers are tervigon-nids. You may be able to beat him, but unless his generalship is really bad, a board-wipe is highly unlikely. As a matter of fact, it's going to be a tough fight just to win the game.

I have 6 MC's to kill. I just have to play my target identification and prioritization correctly. Your list is close to the norm. I wouldnt of run that many transports and would of foot slogged some of them myself but we will see how it goes. Ill keep a tally of the kill points for fun to see where it ends up at if the purge isnt complete by the bottom of 6.

gendoikari87 wrote:

The tac is better at AV duty beyond 24´ but that is it. There is no other benefit to the tac over a strike squad.

Price comes to mind....

And Las Cannons, Drop Pods, Meltas, and Combat Tactics...

And when I say straw man, I am specifically talking about taking a statement I made "Tac Marines are more flexible than Strike Squads" and then putting up a huge wall of text comparing tactical marines to everything _but_ strike squads.

Most of what make Strike Squads overly good are other things in the book, like being able to generate 2+ cover saves for your entire army if its camping a building and the assanine hammerhand before doubling ruling. Warp Quake is a poorly designed power though, when facing Daemons or Blood Angels, but then those armies are more or less boned by GKs across the board anyhow.

ShumaGorath wrote:They'll be spending half that game either going to ground to avoid losing everyone to two plasma canon shots or moving so that their static 80 point missile (which is still a terrible point value) can see something. Lone marine missile launchers aren't a particularly viable or valuable shooting platform. It's icing on a cake made of trash.

Comments like this one make it very clear that you don't really know how to use these units. Spacing your unit properly means that you will only have 1-2 guys getting hit from a plasma cannon blast at worst, and cover means that even if they hit 4 guys with their two plasma cannon shots (practically a worst-case scenario) you'll only lose two on average, and the heavy weapon won't even be at risk. When you throw in the potential for Bolster Defenses and thus 3+ cover saves (2+ with Go to Ground!), it gets even more ridiculous. I consider the Leman Russ Executioner (for instance) to be an almost useless unit against me-- I normally lose 0-2 guys from 4-5 plasma cannon templates.

Which Tyranid or dark eldar units? Certainly not any of the ones they'd ever actually be in assault with. Oddly, thats true of necrons and IG as well. Tacs tie necrons statistically one on one and lose to basic warriors at cost. It's pathetic. What are tacs beating? Basic guardians? 5 man termagaunt squads? Unsupported dark eldar warriors? That sure sounds useful.

At the last tournament I went to, my Tactical Marines assaulted in two games-- in one, a Combat Squad shot a Scarab unit and finished it off in assault, while another Combat Squad did the same feat with a different unit of Scarabs. In a different game, my Tacticals assaulted and killed a unit of Fire Dragons. That's just my most recent example. In other games, I've used Tacs to finish off depleted Grey Knight squads, assault pretty much anything in the IG army (yes, even blob platoons-- tying them up can be useful in its own right), etc.

ShumaGorath wrote:Razorspam works

No, it doesn't. Razorspam is the epitome of netlisting, and in my experience and the experience of competitive players I've spoken with in my area, Razorspam alone has yet to really win any major event, despite getting talked up a lot online.

ShumaGorath wrote:because MSU provides too many weaponized targets for the average army to engage efficiently. When you have 3 razorbacks suddenly its a lot easier. Razors aren't great for the cost in low numbers. A 70 point lascanon on av11 is kinda lame and razors are bad dedicated transport vehicles.

Interesting idea, but it really doesn't match my experience. At the Bay Area Open GT, my first game was against a mech Blood Angels list with I think 6-7 Razorbacks plus support elements; I was fielding a SM list with 25 Tactical Marines (two full squads, one 5-man squad) and 3 Razorbacks plus various other units. I defeated my opponent through canny use of terrain (and a bit of luck besides)-- but overall I felt that my army generally outclassed my opponent's force.

You might simply reply by saying that I was lucky or that my opponent was bad or something-- in return, I'll point you towards Tony Kopach, generally considered the best 40k player out there, who does very well for himself with a list that also typically includes only 2-3 Razorbacks.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Which you don't have to use. The old standby is 10 Tactical Marines, meltagun, multi-melta, Sergeant with combi-melta, Rhino with dozer blade. This unit is very powerful with or without Combat Squads

No. It isn't. Not for 250 points. It's actually god awful for 250 points.

That doesn't cost 250 points. It costs 225.

ShumaGorath wrote:Theres no making that cost look good for that unit. Almost every other army gets something similar in use and better.

Really? That unit does very well for me, either splitting into an irritating multi-melta support crew and a melta hunter Rhino or moving aggressively into midfield and threatening the enemy directly.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I think MEQs have neither "poor stats" nor "an incredibly poor level of CC ability for their cost." Even a few Marines can easily take out squads from other armies in CC.

A tac marine at 17 PPM base 170/10) has 1 attack. You get 3 ork boyz for that. Thats 9 attacks, 12 on the charge. You get 1.2 grey hunters, thats 2-3 attacks. You get 2 hormugaunts, thats 4 attacks, 6 on the charge. Where exactly are they good or comparable to these units? Hell, IG vets have more CC output then marines at cost. Thats truly pathetic.

Attacks aren't the only stat in the game. Also, Tactical Marines don't cost 17 points, but of course you know that and are just trying to make a point.

ShumaGorath wrote:

You may be using [Combat Tactics] wrong.

Nope, it's just an overtrumped and poor ability that most marine armies scoring well in tournaments don't even have access to... good players don't cause trivial casualties to a squad and thus let you freely fall back when they're setting up for an assault.

This reply frankly proves that you're using it wrong. Combat Tactics isn't limited to denying charges.

ShumaGorath wrote:

If you think that Tactical squads are bad in midfield, you're bad at playing Space Marines.

I'm sure spending 2 turns to set up midfield (thus not shooting that heavy weapon turning them into overcosted and much worse gray hunters) and then being assaulted (and losing because they aren't gray hunters) is what great marine players do every day. Sure.

Normally, my attack elements move up directly, with my Tacticals immediately behind to provide support. The Tacs usually start shooting on turn 2-3 and keep it up for the rest of the game.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Scoring Psyflemen aren't too good. They require specific HQs, can't be reliably fielded in numbers, and make the opponent's target priority completely trivial.

As opposed to sitting with 5 marines in the back as you were advocating? Come now. Do better than that.

I indeed consider 5 Marines with a heavy weapon to be better than a Psyfleman when it comes to scoring objectives.

To be honest, it's difficult to explain why units are viable to someone who clearly doesn't understand how to use them. It's especially frustrating when someone who doesn't know how to use a unit pops into many threads protesting how "bad" the unit is and declaring that his Codex must be underpowered-- imagine that I were to reply to every Ork thread saying that Orks were garbage, that other Codices had surpassed them, that GW needed to give them a buff, all because my Shoota Boyz in Trukks weren't getting the job done in assault!

In general, my first assumption when something doesn't work for me is not that that thing is bad but that I am using it incorrectly, and with a little bit of work a more effective way to use the unit usually shows up. Now, that's not to say there aren't any bad units out there-- there certainly are-- but I wouldn't be so quick to write something off. In general, good players can find unexpected and powerful ways to use things, even when others pooh-pooh them.

oh strike squads are good no doubt, certainly several times better against armies of 3+ with low or no AV vehicles. But guard? I'd rather have the tac squads. For starters because they have FLAMERS, and melta. and you can take more tac squads, and that means you can have more scoring models on the board, and that matters. A lot.

jy2 wrote:

pretre wrote:I've said this before, but everytime I go to a tournament with my Sisters I cross my fingers and hope for terminator armies with Draigo right at the top.

They just don't stand a chance.

This makes me want to take my Draigowing up against Amerikon's Battle Sisters this upcoming Thurs.

I find it kind of fun to play an "underdog" army sometimes.

heheh. Yeah, it has been scary bad whenever I have played against 2+ armies with my sisters. Could be the generals, but the amount of AP1 I put out is disgusting.

Fetterkey wrote:

Kairos wrote:1 - Their basic strike squad is 4 pts more than a tactical Marine.

And substantially worse as a unit. Grey Knight Strike Squads are IMO one of the worst Troops choices in the game.

Kairos wrote:2 - Aegis on everything & reinforced Aegis on the Psyriflemen.

This does nothing in most games.

Kairos wrote:3 - Purifiers (that can easily be spammed) Orks & Tyranids don't have an answer if the GK player is skilled. DE close combat armies are also invalidated.

Orks? Shoot them. Tyranids? Shadow in the Warp. DE close combat armies? Shoot them. Also, remember-- if you have an army with no solutions to armies that can beat them in CC, then you have a bad army.

Kairos wrote:4 - Fortitude

Fortitude is indeed very strong. It's probably the strongest element of the Codex.

Kairos wrote:5 - Force Weapons on every model (this is way, way nasty and it is basically provided for free)

Force Weapons are not particularly strong in this edition. Grey Knights are difficult to defeat with

Kairos wrote:6 - Summoning a Land Raider filled with Grey Knights into your opponents deployment zone

So it can eat melta and die? Why?

Kairos wrote:7 - Psyriflemen - This single unit drastically dropped the DE Codex power level

Psyflemen are strong but not unstoppable. Other units that already exist in other books are much stronger in this role-- Hydras, for instance.

Kairos wrote:8 - Librarian - Psychic powers are too powerful and undercosted

Uh, no? Space Marine Librarians have powers that are debatably better for far fewer points. Grey Knight Librarians are good, but Null Zone and Gate of Infinity are still unparalleled.

Kairos wrote:9 - Paladin wound allocation

I don't really find this a significant threat. Your mileage may vary, but Nob Bikers aren't really scary anymore, and Nob Bikers 2.0 (now with worse saves and slower movement!) aren't exactly scaring me, even though their shooting power is admittedly quite strong.

Kairos wrote:10 - Paladin's are virtually untouchable in close combat, except against huge units of Bloodcrushers

What about TH/SS Terminators?

Kairos wrote:11 - Warp Quake spam

This sucks for some armies, but has no effect in the majority of games. Also, the armies that Warp Quake spam is good against-- most notably DoA-- aren't viable against Grey Knights anyway. In general, DoA armies do very poorly against armies that can beat them in assault, Warp Quake or no Warp Quake.

Kairos wrote:12 - Teleport Shunting

Post-FAQ, this is entirely balanced and reasonable.

Kairos wrote:13 - Psychotroke Grenades & Rad Grenades

These are very strong but can often be avoided or picked off.

Kairos wrote:14 - Henchmen armies are open to all kinds of build abuse

Like what, making a bad version of an IG army?

Kairos wrote:Can they be beat? Absolutely, but they will win far more often than they will loose. They also hard counter many different builds and grossly unbalanced the overall meta game for the worse. In the hands of a really good player with a deep knowledge of the game, they are beyond broken, and if that player can do any list tailoring before a game; forget it.

I shifted two or three units in my list when Grey Knights came out-- just as I shifted two or three units in my list when the Necrons came out recently. New books obviously change the game, but claiming that it's a change for the worse seems to be a rather myopic view. Overall, I think Grey Knights are a book like any other. Just as I had to adjust my list and tactics to deal with Necron Scarabs, I had to adjust my list and tactics to deal with Psyflemen outclassing my Riflemen and with the plethora of psychic powers available to the Knights-- but following these changes, I definitely think my vanilla Marine army can hang with the GK. Overall, I think a lot of these things are just attitude problems. An adaptive player will in most cases be able to shift their build and/or tactics to deal with "new kids on the block" quite easily, especially in the relatively balanced days of 5th edition.

"And substantially worse as a unit. Grey Knight Strike Squads are IMO one of the worst Troops choices in the game."
No. Psycannons, Force Weapons, Storm Bolters, Warp Quake, Hammerhand, Aegis, and Psyke Out Grenades. They are superior in every way to a Tactical squad, they just don't get
a missile launcher, lascannon, multi-melta, etc. So what. Most Grey Knight players don't use them, but the point and comparison still stands.

"Orks? Shoot them. Tyranids? Shadow in the Warp. DE close combat armies? Shoot them. Also, remember-- if you have an army with no solutions to armies that can beat them in CC, then you have a bad army."
Orks - shoot them? Dude.... That is like taking a BBGun to an automatic weapon gunfight. Loota's aren't going to do it, and the Psyriflemen will devastate all of the Ork Mech in the meantime.
DE - shoot them? Really, really, dicey. Statisically, the Grey Knight player will gimp the DE player with the Psyriflemen in most cases. Most compeitive Grey Knight lists are running at least 3 Psyriflemen.
Tyranids - Shadows in the Warp will help, but it won't make it a fair match most of the time.

"Aegis on everything & reinforced Aegis on the Psyriflemen.
This does nothing in most games."
Actually, it can do a lot when you use a lot of Psykers. You have never played Dual Lash against Draigo Wing with 3 Psyriflemen on the table I take it?
And that is not all, we get a Psychic Hood on top of it! How about that as an added bonus!

"Librarian - Psychic powers are too powerful and undercosted. Uh, no? Space Marine Librarians have powers that are debatably better for far fewer points. Grey Knight Librarians are good, but Null Zone and Gate of Infinity are still unparalleled."
Nope. The Grey Knight Librarian is supeior in every way, and has better synergy with the other Grey Knight units. And he also get's a Warding Stave! How about that!, he can solo most
any Space Marine IC.

"Paladin wound allocation
I don't really find this a significant threat. Your mileage may vary, but Nob Bikers aren't really scary anymore, and Nob Bikers 2.0 (now with worse saves and slower movement!) aren't exactly scaring me, even though their shooting power is admittedly quite strong."
This is huge, and is one of the cornerstones of the Draigo Wing build. It is one of the reasons a fully kitted out Draigo\Librarian+10 Paladin w Apothecary squad can walk thru an endless horde of Ork Boyz.

"10 - Paladin's are virtually untouchable in close combat, except against huge units of Bloodcrushers.
What about TH/SS Terminators?"
The Paladin's will still likely win. Even against a full 20 Deathwing TH\SS Terminators, a brick of 10 Paladins with Draigo will easily be putting out 30-40 power weapon attacks hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's. Return attacks will have to get thru a 3++,2++,2++, and several 4++.

"Summoning a Land Raider filled with Grey Knights into your opponents deployment zone
So it can eat melta and die? Why?"
So it can eat Melta, and than have a bunch of Paladin's roll up your lines. This is especially poopy against armies without proper assault elements.


Grey Knights are balanced in a vacuum against other Grey Knights. The codex was designed so that lot's and lot's of players would buy the new army, and it wasn't just driven by new pretty models..

Draigo wrote:On a side note about sisters.. Those organ tanks are obnoxious when running a walking pally list when your opponent keeps rollin 5-6s shots with all 3..

The example of your arguments to what I considered fallacy, you always pick the numbers, units that favors your arguments without logic.
Since the Exorcist Launcher is D6, the average is 4. However to make it seem more favorable for you, you make it go higher.

One can do the exact same thing in a counter point of saying they are so bad with 1-2 shots only.

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:On a side note about sisters.. Those organ tanks are obnoxious when running a walking pally list when your opponent keeps rollin 5-6s shots with all 3..

The example of your arguments to what I considered fallacy, you always pick the numbers, units that favors your arguments without logic.
Since the Exorcist Launcher is D6, the average is 4. However to make it seem more favorable for you, you make it go higher.

One can do the exact same thing in a counter point of saying they are so bad with 1-2 shots only.

Yeah even 12 str 8 ap1 shots are going to wreck a pally list, especially when the only reliable anti tank they'll have is max range 24", unless you spring for some psydreds, and then your down to like.... 10 scoring models.

gendoikari87 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:On a side note about sisters.. Those organ tanks are obnoxious when running a walking pally list when your opponent keeps rollin 5-6s shots with all 3..

The example of your arguments to what I considered fallacy, you always pick the numbers, units that favors your arguments without logic.
Since the Exorcist Launcher is D6, the average is 4. However to make it seem more favorable for you, you make it go higher.

One can do the exact same thing in a counter point of saying they are so bad with 1-2 shots only.

Yeah even 12 str 8 ap1 shots are going to wreck a pally list, especially when the only reliable anti tank they'll have is max range 24", unless you spring for some psydreds, and then your down to like.... 10 scoring models.

Sir, I think you just missed the point of my post. Im not debating the average of 4.......

Im saying when his logic is picking the numbers above average to make it favorable,
one can do the same, pick the numbers for below average as a counter.

Please re think it over.

Tomb King wrote:I have 6 MC's to kill. I just have to play my target identification and prioritization correctly. Your list is close to the norm. I wouldnt of run that many transports and would of foot slogged some of them myself but we will see how it goes. Ill keep a tally of the kill points for fun to see where it ends up at if the purge isnt complete by the bottom of 6.

Ha! We'll see if anything in power armor is still alive at that point.

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:On a side note about sisters.. Those organ tanks are obnoxious when running a walking pally list when your opponent keeps rollin 5-6s shots with all 3..

The example of your arguments to what I considered fallacy, you always pick the numbers, units that favors your arguments without logic.
Since the Exorcist Launcher is D6, the average is 4. However to make it seem more favorable for you, you make it go higher.

One can do the exact same thing in a counter point of saying they are so bad with 1-2 shots only.

No it was an example from a game not using math luna so calm down there killer. It was my one game vs the new sisters and the guy never rollwed below a 4 till the last round. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And lna your comment was just you gettin your hackles up before you got my context due to you disagreeing in the past with me.

A lone game does not make something accurate. Because the dice is random, this is why i kept mentioning logic.

You cannot take your personal experience of a game or 2 and use that as the base of your arguments. Because everyone's luck is different, the situations are different, thats why the most logical thing to do is find the medium, aka average.

1) I am calm, I have been calm, my comments iare logical.

What is hackles up mean?

LunaHound wrote:A lone game does not make something accurate. Because the dice is random, this is why i kept mentioning logic.

You cannot take your personal experience of a game or 2 and use that as the base of your arguments. Because everyone's luck is different, the situations are different, thats why the most logical thing to do is find the medium, aka average.

1) I am calm, I have been calm, my comments iare logical.

What is hackles up mean?

You know luna if saying this game was bad cause he rolled real well only got a reaction outta you. Why do you suppose that is? I was just making an off topic remark about how that was rough. Why does that require you to try to start up a debate about ONE off comment?

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:A lone game does not make something accurate. Because the dice is random, this is why i kept mentioning logic.

You cannot take your personal experience of a game or 2 and use that as the base of your arguments. Because everyone's luck is different, the situations are different, thats why the most logical thing to do is find the medium, aka average.

1) I am calm, I have been calm, my comments iare logical.

What is hackles up mean?

You know luna if saying this game was bad cause he rolled real well only got a reaction outta you. Why do you suppose that is? I was just making an off topic remark about how that was rough. Why does that require you to try to start up a debate about ONE off comment?

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

All Im saying is, for any debates, normally people use the average, instead of the extreme numbers to favor a certain situation.
because when people do that, there are 2 logical reasons

1) The extreme number was picked to favor the certain situation and point.
2) The number while truthful, shows there isnt enough situations that occurred to make the person present an average number. Aka what i mentioned pages back " not enough games played"

Kairos wrote:[Grey Knights have] Psycannons, Force Weapons, Storm Bolters, Warp Quake, Hammerhand, Aegis, and Psyke Out Grenades. They are superior in every way to a Tactical squad, they just don't get
a missile launcher, lascannon, multi-melta, etc. So what. Most Grey Knight players don't use them, but the point and comparison still stands.

Grey Knight Strike Squads certainly are equivalent to or superior to Tactical Squads at most things in game. HOWEVER-- and this is a big "however--" they pay for it in points, and pay too much to really be viable-- especially since most of those abilities won't do anything in any particular matchup! Further, the areas in which the Tactical Squads have the advantage-- most notably killing vehicles and scoring objectives-- are very important areas indeed.

Kairos wrote:Orks - shoot them? Dude.... That is like taking a BBGun to an automatic weapon gunfight. Loota's aren't going to do it, and the Psyriflemen will devastate all of the Ork Mech in the meantime.

Lootas, shootas, kannons, grotzookas-- all of those can easily put some hurt on dismounted Marines. Purifiers may be a tough nut for Orks to crack in close combat, but to shooting they die just like any other Marine.

Kairos wrote:Actually, it can do a lot when you use a lot of Psykers. You have never played Dual Lash against Draigo Wing with 3 Psyriflemen on the table I take it?
And that is not all, we get a Psychic Hood on top of it! How about that as an added bonus!

If your army relies on casting psychic powers to win, it's not an all-comers army because it can't deal with psychic defense.

Kairos wrote:The Grey Knight Librarian is supeior in every way, and has better synergy with the other Grey Knight units. And he also get's a Warding Stave! How about that!, he can solo most
any Space Marine IC.

"Superior in every way" except that he doesn't have the SM Librarian's two best powers, he can't ride in a nromal transport, etc. Is the GK Librarian good? Sure. Is he so good that he makes the SM Librarian (one of the best HQs in the game) nonviable? Hell no. Also, I'm honestly not sure what you're thinking if you actually believe "whose boss would win in a fight" is relevant in modern 40k.

Kairos wrote:Even against a full 20 Deathwing TH\SS Terminators, a brick of 10 Paladins with Draigo will easily be putting out 30-40 power weapon attacks hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's. Return attacks will have to get thru a 3++,2++,2++, and several 4++.

Sure, and it will cost way more to boot...

Kairos wrote:"Summoning a Land Raider filled with Grey Knights into your opponents deployment zone
So it can eat melta and die? Why?"
So it can eat Melta, and than have a bunch of Paladin's roll up your lines. This is especially poopy against armies without proper assault elements.

I can kill a Land Raider and 5 Paladins in one turn if they show up in the middle of my army. This "combo" also costs 500+ points, plus the Librarian, plus various other grades, etc.

Kairos wrote:Grey Knights are balanced in a vacuum against other Grey Knights. The codex was designed so that lot's and lot's of players would buy the new army, and it wasn't just driven by new pretty models..

I find that Grey Knights seem fairly balanced with most other Codices as well as against other Grey Knights. They do have strong matchups against some of the older books, but doesn't everybody? I don't think they're out of line with other 5th edition books, and I will point out that people have complained in this fashion about almost every Codex out there post-release. Once you adapt, you'll find that playing against GK is much the same as any other matchup against a good army-- challenging, but winnable.

IM NOT DEBATING ANYTHING. lol I said it's rough that i had a guy roll well. lol If anyone else made that comment would you be so eager to say anything? If I made a comment it rained in florida would you argue that too? I dont get why you thought I was argueing debating or anything. They were discussing how good the codex was and tac marines. My comment had nothing to do with anything hence why I said side note.

Draigo wrote:IM NOT DEBATING ANYTHING. lol I said it's rough that i had a guy roll well. lol If anyone else made that comment would you be so eager to say anything? If I made a comment it rained in florida would you argue that too? I dont get why you thought I was argueing debating or anything. They were discussing how good the codex was and tac marines. My comment had nothing to do with anything hence why I said side note.

I think you are under a false impression.

We are exchanging our ideas, our views on things. Our views differ, thats expected. But Im pointing out the things you missed.

This does not constitute an argument, or a fight.

Its just a discussion.

ShumaGorath wrote:Stuff about tactical marines in a GK thread

Maybe you should start a Tac marines are sucky thread. You're constantly railing about how GK are better than tac marines, but then you compare them to everything else to prove how bad they are. So what does that have to do with GK?

In other games, I've used Tacs to finish off depleted Grey Knight squads

Moot point since you know, once a few grots of mine went through a depleted Tac squad...so what?

What about TH/SS Terminators?"
The Paladin's will still likely win. Even against a full 20 Deathwing TH\SS Terminators, a brick of 10 Paladins with Draigo will easily be putting out 30-40 power weapon attacks hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's. Return attacks will have to get thru a 3++,2++,2++, and several 4++.

Utter BS.
Paladins stand very little chance against hammernators point for point.

Sure when you drag in draigo to make your point look less desperate I agree but then again if you bring in draigo to the melee I will counter it with 275 points worth of hammernators or even better, 190p worth of Vulkan and 85p worth of hammernators if the fight is really big so my 20+ hammers get rerolls to hit.

10 kitted out paladins, if they are now supposedly being made to walk through hordes upon hordes of ork boys, will cost around 700-750 points.
For this I get some 18-19 hammernators.
Now even a kindergarden level mathematician will understand what happens when those forces meet in melee, even after a round of shooting.


As for tacs, pure SM vanilla tacs and not the bizzaro BA and SW versions that work much better within their respective codexes I find pretty fun, not to mention enlightening to see that pretty much zero competitive SM builds ever consider the tac squad as anything other then a necessary evil you just have to drag in because there are somethings called objectives.

I will tell you this and do so with utter conviction, if it werent for objectives NOBODY in their right mind would ever take vanilla tac squads in SM lists unless they loved the idea of constantly loosing.
A more worthless unit is hard to find (besides scouts and LoTD) where you pay for 10 bolters in order to get the option to shoot one heavy weapon and where everything out there either out assaults or out shoots you point for point.
The one and only thing redeeeming the tac from its versality pov are the dark eldar, pretty much the one and only thing that actually makes it worth to ever take the tac heavy bolter since it is better against them then the missile.

Pyriel- wrote:

In other games, I've used Tacs to finish off depleted Grey Knight squads

Moot point since you know, once a few grots of mine went through a depleted Tac squad...so what?

I dont get it either :'/

Pyriel- wrote:
I will tell you this and do so with utter conviction, if it werent for objectives NOBODY in their right mind would ever take vanilla tac squads in SM lists unless they loved the idea of constantly loosing.
A more worthless unit is hard to find (besides scouts and LoTD) where you pay for 10 bolters in order to get the option to shoot one heavy weapon and where everything out there either out assaults or out shoots you point for point.
The one and only thing redeeeming the tac from its versality pov are the dark eldar, pretty much the one and only thing that actually makes it worth to ever take the tac heavy bolter since it is better against them then the missile.

Eldar Guardians, Storm Guardians, Tau Fire Warriors, Termagaunts, Necron Warriors, Dire Avengers, Cabal Warriors, Tyranid Warriors, and Genestealers would like a word with you on that. All lose to equal points worth of Tac Marines in either the shooting or CC front (most both), are completely helpless against walkers that hit them in CC, and cannot rally below half strength. Hell, all a Tac squad has to do is sit in cover and they autowin against equal points of any Nid troop choice, and one frag missile a turn will outshoot the cross eyed Tau from futher down range than they can even retaliate. As a Xenos player, I can say this with utter conviction: There is no Xenos army out there that would not trade its entire list of core troop choices for Tactical Marines (or Strike Marines, for that matter), outside of Orks.

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:IM NOT DEBATING ANYTHING. lol I said it's rough that i had a guy roll well. lol If anyone else made that comment would you be so eager to say anything? If I made a comment it rained in florida would you argue that too? I dont get why you thought I was argueing debating or anything. They were discussing how good the codex was and tac marines. My comment had nothing to do with anything hence why I said side note.

I think you are under a false impression.

We are exchanging our ideas, our views on things. Our views differ, thats expected. But Im pointing out the things you missed.

This does not constitute an argument, or a fight.

Its just a discussion.

Except your first comment was I picked favorable things for arguements which means you are oblivious as to an off hand comment. There wasnt anything to discuss. What did I miss? I was at the game he rolled 5-6 and said it was rough. You were not there so hard for you to comment but look at that you did anyway. I wasnt talking numbers or strength of codex. So no luna I think your were the one whomissed the point and decided to share your opinion because you do not care for my pov or comments.

And since when to Strike Squads tear apart Tacticals in CC? Slightly outshoot them, sure, but they are only marginally better in close combat, when you compare a 200 point Fist + Las Cannon unit to a 225 strike squad with hammer and two psy cannons.

GKs-
7 force weapon swings, 3.5 hit, 2.33 wound (assuming Hammerhand), 2 psycannon derps hit once and wound 0.5 which equals 0.17 after saves, so a grand total of 2.5 dead marines on average. If you have no Psycannons, then three dead marines, but who does that?

Tacs-
9 swings, 4.5 hits, 2.25 wounds resulting in 0.8ish dead GKs.

The hammer and fist are a wash, but essentially contribute one dead guy a turn each. So, it takes a more expensive ten man strike squad four rounds of combat, on average, to grind down an equal sized tac marine squad and they will be almost completely dead afterwards. Call me stupid, but I am not exactly seeing the CC domination here.

Now obviously the side that gets the charge off has a huge leg up in this one, moreso in the case of the Strikes, but that could realistically be either side with these two units and the Strikes still can't tackle most walkers or higher AV vehicles at range with any degree of reliability, so I think the units are pretty much a dead heat, and therefore both pretty much the dogs of their respective codexes, but most Xenos armies would kill to have those kinds of options in their core troops.

Phazael wrote: As a Xenos player, I can say this with utter conviction: There is no Xenos army out there that would not trade its entire list of core troop choices for Tactical Marines (or Strike Marines, for that matter), outside of Orks.

I think that necron immortals are one of the up and comers in the category. They don't get special weapons by default, but they can be customized with the crypteks to suit your needs. Other than that, wyches are good situationally, but they fold to pretty much any shooting and require haemonculous support to live through most anything.

Draigo wrote:Except your first comment was I picked favorable things for arguements which means you are oblivious as to an off hand comment. There wasnt anything to discuss. What did I miss? I was at the game he rolled 5-6 and said it was rough. You were not there so hard for you to comment but look at that you did anyway. I wasnt talking numbers or strength of codex. So no luna I think your were the one whomissed the point and decided to share your opinion because you do not care for my pov or comments.

Just like your Tyranid multi wound creature vs force weapon right? where you based everything off comparing it to a Trygon?
Or how favorable situations you place against the purifier cleansing flame?

Listen Draigo, Im not going to get into a stupid off topic debate with youi, however.
If you have issues with people seeing and pointing flaws in your ideas, maybe think it over first before using it in a discussion thread.

Lastly, remember this IS a discussion thread, dont take it to offense when people disagree with you.

Especially they do it politely
logically
with support ( agree or disagree, atleast its presented before you eyes )

I don't understand how people are so obsessed with comparing points vs points across totally different books or using herohammer as the yardstick by which a books quality is measured.

Also tac squad hate? really? and comparing the melee ability of tac squads vs strike squads?
Tac squads are good because you can take 4 squads of 10 with double melta and a HW in rhinos for like 900 points and you have 4 backfield/midfield objective sitters and 4 suicide melta teams/ speed bumps. And another 8-900 points of fire support from solid elites, fast and heavy slots.

Also power fists are not worth 25 points, there is no situation where it is better to whack away with a pfist vs shoot with your whole army.

Grey knights have some interesting options but they aren't broken and dragiostar isn't anything to write home about.

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:Except your first comment was I picked favorable things for arguements which means you are oblivious as to an off hand comment. There wasnt anything to discuss. What did I miss? I was at the game he rolled 5-6 and said it was rough. You were not there so hard for you to comment but look at that you did anyway. I wasnt talking numbers or strength of codex. So no luna I think your were the one whomissed the point and decided to share your opinion because you do not care for my pov or comments.

Just like your Tyranid multi wound creature vs force weapon right? where you based everything off comparing it to a Trygon?
Or how favorable situations you place against the purifier cleansing flame?

Listen Draigo, Im not going to get into a stupid off topic debate with youi, however.
If you have issues with people seeing and pointing flaws in your ideas, maybe think it over first before using it in a discussion thread.

Lastly, remember this IS a discussion thread, dont take it to offense when people disagree with you.

Especially they do it politely
logically
with support ( agree or disagree, atleast its presented before you eyes )

lol flaws in ideas? How is there a flaw in a observation? If you see someone on the street say the weather is nice when its raining do you feel the need to comment? I really do think you are clueless. An offhand comment is nothing like the nid vs gk discussion. If I had stated sob vs gk and not said off hand this happenned and wasnt good ok but I really think you misunderstood the point and due to past discussions felt you had to point out something that wasnt there to begin with. You did not commet on petres comment sayin yea i know I would like that too. So I see a bias. I wasnt comparing anything or debating till you decided to say im picking favorable things for debate. I was NOT debating anything but I am annoyed since I cant even make any type of comment without you trying to start a debate over nothing.

dropdown wrote:Also power fists are not worth 25 points, there is no situation where it is better to whack away with a pfist vs shoot with your whole army.

There is...

simultaneous deep strikes with melee oriented units or CC monstrous creatures.

how many crakmissile or lascannons is enough to take care of those?

<Luna, Draigo - go back to your corners; when you hear the bell, come out swinging!>

There will be no bell. Calm down, and stop discussing posting styles.

jy2 wrote:

pretre wrote:

Draigo wrote:On a side note about sisters.. Those organ tanks are obnoxious when running a walking pally list when your opponent keeps rollin 5-6s shots with all 3..

I've said this before, but everytime I go to a tournament with my Sisters I cross my fingers and hope for terminator armies with Draigo right at the top.

They just don't stand a chance.

This makes me want to take my Draigowing up against Amerikon's Battle Sisters this upcoming Thurs.

I find it kind of fun to play an "underdog" army sometimes.

I'm not sure you are the underdog. lol Though I also hope to play them again this saturday at the tourney. Im interested to see the jacob bomb, dominion squads and the tanks. From the first game I was certainly suprised that they were considered a sub par book. Im not sure about their pt costs or other options but that list seemed pretty competitive. Scouting dominions, pretty solid cc unit and reasonably good range seemed like a good list that fullfils the requirements that most competitive lists are compared to.

LunaHound wrote:

dropdown wrote:Also power fists are not worth 25 points, there is no situation where it is better to whack away with a pfist vs shoot with your whole army.

There is...

simultaneous deep strikes with melee oriented units or CC monstrous creatures.

how many crakmissile or lascannons is enough to take care of those?

Not sure what that means, I'm talking about vanilla/BA tac squads. If deep strikers show up they get to eat a turn of shooting, charge 2-3 things then get shot up again your next shooting phase.

IF a MC charges a combat squad I'd rather fall back and kill it in the next turn of shooting than wail on it for 2-3 turns with a powerfist. It's not like it takes a ton of fire to down a MC.

Eldar Guardians, Storm Guardians, Tau Fire Warriors, Termagaunts, Necron Warriors, Dire Avengers, Cabal Warriors, Tyranid Warriors, and Genestealers would like a word with you on that. All lose to equal points worth of Tac Marines in either the shooting or CC front (most both), are completely helpless against walkers that hit them in CC, and cannot rally below half strength. Hell, all a Tac squad has to do is sit in cover and they autowin against equal points of any Nid troop choice, and one frag missile a turn will outshoot the cross eyed Tau from futher down range than they can even retaliate. As a Xenos player, I can say this with utter conviction: There is no Xenos army out there that would not trade its entire list of core troop choices for Tactical Marines (or Strike Marines, for that matter), outside of Orks.

lol
Most of your examples outright win point to point in their preferred combat specialties.
170p of ork boys go through a tac squad in melee as do genesteelers and 170p worth of guardians rapidshoot like crazy compared to a tac squad just as 170p of shootaboys will handle a tac squad in shooting.
The little advantage of the tac is that it can do everything albeit piss poorly.
You basically end up with 9 rarely used bolters guarding a missile launcher on an objective praying that nobody will assault them or start a serious firefight or stick them in transports in order to support the real damage dealers elsewhere in the army and pray to the dice gods that your paper thin rhino coffin doesnt get blown up stranding 225p worth of crap in the middle of nowhere with only one heavy weapon being able to reach out and sometimes touch something.

Plus there is a thing called terrain that is easily used by any sane opponent so very few instances of long ranged guardian fire vs tac fire will occur in the open without cover but then again the empirical evidence is with me untill you find me lots and lots of examples of highly competitive vanilla SM armies that are heavily built around the tac squad where said squad takes the major role in the list as contrary to just a few for the sake of obj grabbing and peripheral support.

It has been said that a lot of people that complain about GK being OP don't play GK (DOK! =)). Well, I have seen a few games and played a few games as GK sofar, won a few tournaments with them and I still think they are easy mode..I think some GK lists are tame and balanced and a challenge to win with and others are just so strong that it doesn't take much effort or skill to win with =/. I think one major point is that the codex has so many strong options with little drawbacks that opponents are so outclassed (except maybe some of the newer SM armies and IG).

Lately I've been tossing around Draigo Wing and its just sad to see a unit of Paladins just munch through an entire army, I feel so bad for the other players since I have or have had their respective armies. Oh well,

This thread is just filled with so many inaccuracies and diarrhea of the mouth. Even when logically posting the facts, there is nothing but a bunch of
psychobabble that follows.

Grey Knights are overpowered, any seasoned 40K veteran with a deeper knowledge of the game knows it is true. The few out there that say they are not, are just that; the few.

They are an upward battle for many different armies, and are a hard counter to many more. They have access to mutliple game breaking powers and equipment, and pay nothing
or near nothing in points for it.

They sure do have cool miniatures though.

Kairos wrote:Grey Knights are overpowered, any seasoned 40K veteran with a deeper knowledge of the game knows it is true.

Yeah... that's not a huge, sweeping over-generalization.... at all.

If anything, they are OP against the older books... just like ALL the 5th Edition books are against the older books! Against the big players of SW, IG, BA, and DE... GKs match up pretty evenly.

Gornall wrote:

Kairos wrote:Grey Knights are overpowered, any seasoned 40K veteran with a deeper knowledge of the game knows it is true.

Yeah... that's not a huge, sweeping over-generalization.... at all.

If anything, they are OP against the older books... just like ALL the 5th Edition books are against the older books! Against the big players of SW, IG, BA, and DE... GKs match up pretty evenly.

I agree with this. Obviously, the GK have what it takes to deal with the more recent armies and metas, older armies have a disadvantage as they are limited in what they can do and how effectively they do it. Think of the Polish army during WWII, they had put up a good fight but just were overwhelmed by superior technology and so on.

For example, my Draigo wing army smashes books like CSM, TAU and various SM armies but it is a much more even fight against many of the newer books. Eldar, surprisingly, can still do really well given the right build which is pretty neat.

Gornall wrote:

Kairos wrote:Grey Knights are overpowered, any seasoned 40K veteran with a deeper knowledge of the game knows it is true.

Yeah... that's not a huge, sweeping over-generalization.... at all.

If anything, they are OP against the older books... just like ALL the 5th Edition books are against the older books! Against the big players of SW, IG, BA, and DE... GKs match up pretty evenly.

You are over-generalizing.

IG = Largely #1, and has been that way since 3rd edition. The massed pie plates + Las and melta spam kill MEQ. Nothing new here.
SW = A powerful codex, but pales in comparison to the Grey Knights for a myriad of reasons. Space Wolves can't out shoot and can't out assault Grey Knights. They can beat them sometimes, but it is
at a disadvantage.
BA = Similar to SW, but even at more of a disadvantage than SW.
DE = Largely invalidated by competitive Grey Knight lists because of the Psyriflemen. The Psyriflemen turns the matchup into a "bad" matchup for DE. If you take out the Psyriflemen, the DE can
win consistently again.

IG Largely #1 since 3rd Ed? What? It wasn't until the new book that IG suddenly got very, very good. 5th Helped a lot even with the 3rd Ed Codex, but back then, they really weren't that great at all.

3rd and 4th were largely about Eldar and Chaos, with Tyranids being crazy good during 4th.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:IG Largely #1 since 3rd Ed? What? It wasn't until the new book that IG suddenly got very, very good. 5th Helped a lot even with the 3rd Ed Codex, but back then, they really weren't that great at all.

3rd and 4th were largely about Eldar and Chaos, with Tyranids being crazy good during 4th.

Oh no. I used to play IG in 3rd edition. I ran a list with 3 Leman Russ Battletanks and massed Lascannons. Things were a lot different back then.

That is all it took. I lost maybe 1-2 times in 30-40 games. In fact, I remember the few losses I had. One of them was to a Space Wolf player that tailored his list
and completely deep striked me. The other one was to a deep striking Tyranid list, and that one was really close.

Kairos wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Kairos wrote:Grey Knights are overpowered, any seasoned 40K veteran with a deeper knowledge of the game knows it is true.

Yeah... that's not a huge, sweeping over-generalization.... at all.

If anything, they are OP against the older books... just like ALL the 5th Edition books are against the older books! Against the big players of SW, IG, BA, and DE... GKs match up pretty evenly.

You are over-generalizing.

IG = Largely #1, and has been that way since 3rd edition. The massed pie plates + Las and melta spam kill MEQ. Nothing new here.
SW = A powerful codex, but pales in comparison to the Grey Knights for a myriad of reasons. Space Wolves can't out shoot and can't out assault Grey Knights. They can beat them sometimes, but it is
at a disadvantage.
BA = Similar to SW, but even at more of a disadvantage than SW.
DE = Largely invalidated by competitive Grey Knight lists because of the Psyriflemen. The Psyriflemen turns the matchup into a "bad" matchup for DE. If you take out the Psyriflemen, the DE can
win consistently again.

Sorry... I guess I just disagree with you on this and there isn't much either of us could say to change the other's mind. SW can put enough GHs on the board to swamp GK lists and do Razor/Missile spam well enough to handle Fortituded vehicles. BA have mobility and FNP to help them stay alive versus most GK shooting while avoiding the nasty NFWs. They can also put out enough melta/las/plas to kill expensive GKs and their vehicles. DE is more of a toss-up depending on the GK build and the DE build. I just see GKs as arguably the best of the 5th Ed books (SWs are real close imo), but not far enough ahead to warrant the complaints leveled against them. But you don't agree, and that's fine. To each their own.

Kairos wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Kairos wrote:Grey Knights are overpowered, any seasoned 40K veteran with a deeper knowledge of the game knows it is true.

Yeah... that's not a huge, sweeping over-generalization.... at all.

If anything, they are OP against the older books... just like ALL the 5th Edition books are against the older books! Against the big players of SW, IG, BA, and DE... GKs match up pretty evenly.

You are over-generalizing.

IG = Largely #1, and has been that way since 3rd edition. The massed pie plates + Las and melta spam kill MEQ. Nothing new here.
SW = A powerful codex, but pales in comparison to the Grey Knights for a myriad of reasons. Space Wolves can't out shoot and can't out assault Grey Knights. They can beat them sometimes, but it is
at a disadvantage.
BA = Similar to SW, but even at more of a disadvantage than SW.
DE = Largely invalidated by competitive Grey Knight lists because of the Psyriflemen. The Psyriflemen turns the matchup into a "bad" matchup for DE. If you take out the Psyriflemen, the DE can
win consistently again.

IG = solid
SW= does not pale and only has issues maybe with draigowing(cept maybe drop pod sw since theyre more mobile). Otherwise rhinos/psybacks pop real nice for long fangs. They arent that bad off in cc if they run twc. Plus rune priests can be really helpful along with the mass anti psy talismans.
BA= DOA maybe but spamming dreadnaughst or AV 13 can hang with any gk build.
DE= didnt they say that about long fangs? Guess it didnt matter that much.. So instead of needing 5-15 "pens" you need one with a dread.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think all of these books can win on any given day personally ut my top 3 would be IG, SW and GK.

Draigo wrote:

Kairos wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Kairos wrote:Grey Knights are overpowered, any seasoned 40K veteran with a deeper knowledge of the game knows it is true.

Yeah... that's not a huge, sweeping over-generalization.... at all.

If anything, they are OP against the older books... just like ALL the 5th Edition books are against the older books! Against the big players of SW, IG, BA, and DE... GKs match up pretty evenly.

You are over-generalizing.

IG = Largely #1, and has been that way since 3rd edition. The massed pie plates + Las and melta spam kill MEQ. Nothing new here.
SW = A powerful codex, but pales in comparison to the Grey Knights for a myriad of reasons. Space Wolves can't out shoot and can't out assault Grey Knights. They can beat them sometimes, but it is
at a disadvantage.
BA = Similar to SW, but even at more of a disadvantage than SW.
DE = Largely invalidated by competitive Grey Knight lists because of the Psyriflemen. The Psyriflemen turns the matchup into a "bad" matchup for DE. If you take out the Psyriflemen, the DE can
win consistently again.

IG = solid
SW= does not pale and only has issues maybe with draigowing(cept maybe drop pod sw since theyre more mobile). Otherwise rhinos/psybacks pop real nice for long fangs. They arent that bad off in cc if they run twc. Plus rune priests can be really helpful along with the mass anti psy talismans.
BA= DOA maybe but spamming dreadnaughst or AV 13 can hang with any gk build.
DE= didnt they say that about long fangs? Guess it didnt matter that much.. So instead of needing 5-15 "pens" you need one with a dread.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think all of these books can win on any given day personally ut my top 3 would be IG, SW and GK.

"SW= does not pale and only has issues maybe with draigowing(cept maybe drop pod sw since theyre more mobile). Otherwise rhinos/psybacks pop real nice for long fangs. They arent that bad off in cc if they run twc. Plus rune priests can be really helpful along with the mass anti psy talismans."
Purifier Spam in Rhino's\Razorbacks is completely superior to GH spam. Psyriflemen pop SW transports easier and more reliably than Long Fangs, and are not nearly as vulnerable. TWC die to halberds + force weapons, and just evaporate to Paladins.
Not only this, but in a TAC list, it isn't even a consideration. The Purifier Spam build has an overwhelming advantage against other TAC horde lists like Orks and Tyranids.

"BA= DOA maybe but spamming dreadnaughst or AV 13 can hang with any gk build."
Hang is the key word here. They maybe able to hang, but they are at a disadvantage and they know it. Player skill being equal, the GK player will win more often than the BA player with MSU lists.

"DE= didnt they say that about long fangs? Guess it didnt matter that much.. So instead of needing 5-15 "pens" you need one with a dread."
Totally different situation. Long Fangs are extremely vulnerable to DE weaponry, especially venom spam builds. Psyriflemen are not. Only dark lances, blasters, and heat lances realistically threaten Psyriflemen, and you have to get within
18" to use blasters. Heat lances are 18" ST6 Melta, so you need to be within 9" for them to be effective. Dark Lances are ST8 Lance, which is a loosing proposition against 3+ Psyriflemen with Fortitude.

I acknowledged the paladin issue but if they run more then 5 below 2k pally can get extremely pricey which hinders what else is in the list. Paladins can be doubled out by Long fangs and the other shooting. Since the sw player can focus fire there on the big squad.

BA can cause issues with AV 13 or dreads because many gk players are shorting themselves hammers for cc vs dreads etc. So I wouldnt sell them short and outside of a lot of rends psycanons will have issues with 11 dreads that BA can field.

3 dreads with 12 shots vs 3 targets doesnt strike me as better then 15 with a possible 15 targets. Most splinter weapons wont phase LF till possibly turn 2 since they have limited range as well where missiles, las etc dont.

But I do think lists can definately give a certain army a big advantage so really comparing units in vaccum isnt proving ether of our sides all that well.

Draigo wrote:I acknowledged the paladin issue but if they run more then 5 below 2k pally can get extremely pricey which hinders what else is in the list. Paladins can be doubled out by Long fangs and the other shooting. Since the sw player can focus fire there on the big squad.

BA can cause issues with AV 13 or dreads because many gk players are shorting themselves hammers for cc vs dreads etc. So I wouldnt sell them short and outside of a lot of rends psycanons will have issues with 11 dreads that BA can field.

3 dreads with 12 shots vs 3 targets doesnt strike me as better then 15 with a possible 15 targets. Most splinter weapons wont phase LF till possibly turn 2 since they have limited range as well where missiles, las etc dont.

But I do think lists can definately give a certain army a big advantage so really comparing units in vaccum isnt proving ether of our sides all that well.

"BA can cause issues with AV 13 or dreads because many gk players are shorting themselves hammers for cc vs dreads etc. So I wouldnt sell them short and outside of a lot of rends psycanons will have issues with 11 dreads that BA can field."
Most competitive Grey Knight lists run a daemon hammer in each squad. Most Paladin units have at least 2. 11 dreads would be interesting, but I would count on at least 2 of them going down\stunned each turn to Psyriflemen. If the BA player is running
11 dreads, he does not have many points left for the rest of his army. If there is a Librarian involved, Might of Titan would be devastating to the Dreads in a multi assault.

"3 dreads with 12 shots vs 3 targets doesnt strike me as better then 15 with a possible 15 targets. Most splinter weapons wont phase LF till possibly turn 2 since they have limited range as well where missiles, las etc dont."
Splinter Cannons can threaten the Long Fangs on turn 1, as they have a 36" range. Deploy 12", move 12", shoot 36". If the Dark Eldar player goes first, it is very possible to have 2 or even all 3 of those Long Fang squads completely wiped out before the SW player can even use them.

Draigo wrote:I acknowledged the paladin issue but if they run more then 5 below 2k pally can get extremely pricey which hinders what else is in the list. Paladins can be doubled out by Long fangs and the other shooting. Since the sw player can focus fire there on the big squad.

BA can cause issues with AV 13 or dreads because many gk players are shorting themselves hammers for cc vs dreads etc. So I wouldnt sell them short and outside of a lot of rends psycanons will have issues with 11 dreads that BA can field.

3 dreads with 12 shots vs 3 targets doesnt strike me as better then 15 with a possible 15 targets. Most splinter weapons wont phase LF till possibly turn 2 since they have limited range as well where missiles, las etc dont.

But I do think lists can definately give a certain army a big advantage so really comparing units in vaccum isnt proving ether of our sides all that well.

So blood angels need 11 dreads to beat GK but GK are not over-powered. If that 11 dred list faces dark eldar, IG, hell even space wolves it would get curb stomped. The reason grey knights are so good is you have to either build an all comers that can take on a majority of the meta or build a list that can take on grey knights and hope you dont get those other match-ups. The only army that can fine that median decently is IG as we never need to assault we can just shoot and then shoot some more.

I lol'ed at TWC charging grey knights. You have heard of rad and psychotrope grenades right?

*Clicks "jump to first unread"*
*Sees same arguments as 30 pages ago*
*Jumps to last page*
*Sees same arguments as 6 pages ago*
*Unsubscribes from thread. Shakes head sadly.*

I see now everyons is finally mentioning other armys.

This is what i want to discuss, if we are going to prove GK are by far the best book in a decade then it must be compared with the other "best" books.

But unit vs unit discussion is point less. example. someone said that a dreadnought can be scoring. compared to a tac squad who can score and mvoe forward in a rhino with melta.

To make a dread score, you will need a 200 point GM, with the dread that is 335 points compared to 205 points.

also unit vs unit comparison will never end, there will always be another unit better than the current one.

We need to discuss armies on the whole. Yes sure paladins are amazing and purifers are even better.

But in a list you only have like 6 squad of them with 3 heavy support. 5 man in a rhino can be killed easily.

people may think orks are at a disadvantage but my orks vs my purifers have won most of them time because after the rhinos are gone, massed shooting from shoota boys will kill 5 guys no problem

The lengths people will go to in order to refuse admitting their army is OP is outstanding.
I have a friend who plays BA and he insists that eldar are over-powered because Howling Banshees beat his assault units...lol.
Also having universally fast vehicles is apparently not that much of an advantage.
Popular opinion is pretty conclusive, though.

It’s a pity that the discussion in the article on Dakka about how OP Grey Knights are didn’t get around to explaining how Strikes are one of the worst troop choices in the game before I turned in my list. Guess I’ll have to make due

Hulksmash gave this thread a shout out!

http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2012/02/dark-star-list.html

I'm funny.....

And GK's still aren't OP, just a solid codex in a block of solid codexes.

Hulksmash wrote:I'm funny.....

And GK's still aren't OP, just a solid codex in a block of solid codexes.

I found it amusing.

And agreed.

Hulksmash wrote:I'm funny.....

And GK's still aren't OP, just a solid codex in a block of solid codexes.

I believe your just too stubborn to admit they are an over powered codex. Btw you mean 26-52 S7 rending shots per turn unless I missed something.

pretre wrote:

It’s a pity that the discussion in the article on Dakka about how OP Grey Knights are didn’t get around to explaining how Strikes are one of the worst troop choices in the game before I turned in my list. Guess I’ll have to make due

Hulksmash gave this thread a shout out!

http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2012/02/dark-star-list.html

I wonder what the meta will be in the locale where he's playing that. At face value it appears like it's going to have a very tough time against IG. Thats sort of par for the course for GKs though. I'd like to play against that list, without halberds or grenades GKs can actually be fun to play against.

@tombking

You missed the terminator armor on one psycannon, meaning it's always 4 shots

@shuma

I'd be lying if I said some of the appeal of the list wasn't the fact that I'm not using the toys most people use. That and foot lists are fun.

Hulksmash wrote:I'm funny.....

And GK's still aren't OP, just a solid codex in a block of solid codexes.

I don't think people are using the term overpowered correctly. When it's solidly in contention with two codexes that themselves were considered overpowered (IG and Space Wolves) and is solidly above the rest of the game then it's overpowered. "Overpowered" and "unbeatable" are not the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hulksmash wrote:@tombking

You missed the terminator armor on one psycannon, meaning it's always 4 shots

@shuma

I'd be lying if I said some of the appeal of the list wasn't the fact that I'm not using the toys most people use. That and foot lists are fun.

That very reason is why i picked up some scout bikes the other day