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The Grey Knight Challenge Part I - 2K MTO Necrons vs Draigowing! (Completed)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Do Necrons have what it takes to compete with the Grey Knights?
Yes. They are truly worthy to be considered a tier-1 army.
The verdict is still out. Draw.
No. Maximum Threat necrons are just not balanced enough to be a top build.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Grey knights are arguably the strongest army right now, especially against necrons. They will out-assault the crons and also out-shoot them as well. The only advantage the crons have over the knights is better mobility, and that's only with certain necron builds.

This will be a 2-part series of battle reports. The first will be my Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) necrons against my Draigowing. Both are very strong lists and both are undefeated so far. The second will be necrons versus my Crowe-Purifier grey knights, a build which I consider to be more balanced than and superior to my Draigowing (this battle would be at a later date). Actually, my Draigowing did lose once and that was to my Crowe-Purifiers in an 'Ard Boyz practice game at 2500pts. But they haven't lost yet at 2K, which is what I usually run.

Recently, my MTO doom scythe necrons have won against Sisters of Battle and a Leman Russ Imperial Guards army. They also have several victories where I didn't use the doom scythes. The strategy behind them is a fast and dangerous army that throws more threats at the enemy than they can handle, all at the same time.

However, Draigowing may be one of the very few armies that won't be phased at all by the necron "threats". They have both the resiliency to withstand multiple dangerous units assaulting them as well as the offense to wipe out any single unit that they come into combat with. Lately, my Draigowing has been on a tear, beating a very tough mechdar army (though this was due to sheer luck), a foot necron build and a very nasty fandex tyranid experiment. They also fought Reece's Scarab-farm necrons and SabrX's FNP Blood Angels to a draw.

I think this would be a true test for my MTO necrons. If they can beat Draigowing, then I think this build could be a tier-1 necron build.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


2000 Maximum Threat Overload Necrons vs Draigowing


2K Necrons



Anrakyr
Catacomb Command Barge
1x Cryptek - Harbinger of Destruction, Solar Pulse

Necron Overlord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Weave
Catacomb Command Barge
1x Cryptek - Harbinger of Destruction, Solar Pulse

5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors

10x Canoptek Scarabs
6x Canoptek Wraiths - 3x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Blaster (Raveners)
5x Canoptek Wraiths - 3x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Blaster (Raveners)

3x Canoptek Spyders - Claw Array, Gloom Prism
Doom Scythe (Vendetta)
Doom Scythe (Vendetta)



2K Grey Knights

Draigo
Librarian - Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding

10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons (2x MC), 2x MC-Hammer, Banner, Stave
5x Paladins - 2x Psycannons, Stave
1x Soladin

Stormraven

Psyfleman Dread
Psyfleman Dread


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Battle report will be up Wednesday.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/01/06 05:21:20



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Bounding Assault Marine





Valdosta

er eh... if you're relying on doomscythes to start on table and accomplish much against IG Vendetta wings..well hmm it's good to dream.

They can simply turbo-boost, search light (as you don't have to be able to shoot to use them, you have to search to be bale to shoot) and then have the rear guard light up the 11 armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
roughly same sort of deal with stormravens

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/03 07:52:10


Gwar: "Of course 99.999% of players don't even realise this, and even I am not THAT much of an ass to call on it (unless the guy was a total dick or a Scientologist, but that's just me)"

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

BTW, the vendettas are proxies for the doom scythes. Also, GK vehicles don't come with searchlights. They are an optional upgrade.



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Made in be
Deranged Necron Destroyer






Think it will depend on the mission, but two doomscythes have the power to vaporate that 10 man palladin squad in one go!!

Anrakyr hacking the stormraven and launching the antipsyke missiles can be quite painfull to...

I think this will be for the necrons.

You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things

And we shall do so again.

4500 pts


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




On kill points the crons will be in deep trouble but if it goes to 5 objectives it's easy to spread out and just avoid the Pally unit of doom. I should mention that in every game(not just 40k but EVERY game I have ever played) palladins are allways bs and ridiculous.
   
Made in au
Malicious Mandrake





Valek wrote:Think it will depend on the mission, but two doomscythes have the power to vaporate that 10 man palladin squad in one go!!


Not unless you play some very silly RAW, or the GK player lines up for you.

I think the Necrons are in with a chance though! I hope Anrakyr MitM's a Psyriflemen and it kills pallies...

*Click*  
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Rooting for a Necron victory here, as there are plenty of things there to ruin the GK's day:
- S10 Death Rays causing Instant Death to the Paladins
- Mind in the Machine taking over his Psyflement
- Scarabs nom-nomming the Paladins' armour away.
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

I think the necron list has the tools to deal with the paladins in draigo's squad. GK's are tough, so it will be an uphill battle regardless.

Looking forward to the rep!

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in us
Guardsman with Flashlight




Somewhere in my garage

Hmm, honestly, i have little to no idea what the 'crons are capable of, but if the stories and rumors spread around on the interwebs are true,( Right, like that'll ever happen ) Then those pallies might have a bit of a tough time doing anything.

bagtagger wrote:
On kill points the crons will be in deep trouble but if it goes to 5 objectives it's easy to spread out and just avoid the Pally unit of doom. I should mention that in every game(not just 40k but EVERY game I have ever played) palladins are allways bs and ridiculous.

@ bagtagger, Very true and then when those pallies are just controlling 1 or 2 obj's is when the GK player will feel silliest for taking his Death star out for a jog.

Either way, this will be a glorious, albeit bloody, fight to the death! ( 'Course what else do you expect from WH40K? )

"If you're the last one alive, you're not fighting hard enough!"
Exalted Pariah Wrote
Though, with all of humanity united maybe the Emperor would fight Gork and Mork in the background to stop this from happening....
Then humanity wins as Pedro Kantor Falcon Punches the Arch Arsonist so hard into Gazghull that it stuns him long enough for Brother Jarod of the Black Templar(a ven dread who HATES orkz) to throw a barely concious Yarrick powerklaw first into his face.

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Latest Wrack in the Pits




Decatur, TN

The stormraven getting taken over and then firing mindstrikes into the paladins would be comical.

I think that Draigowing prevails though.

Learning 7th edition to prove that DE still rule the roost!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

PRE-GAME ANALYSIS:

Necrons:
Really, I'm not so sure how to take on the paladinstar. I think the Deathray may be my best shot, but I'll probably only get 1 shot each with them before he shoots them down. I could assault the paladinstar with both units of wraiths, but I think he will grind them down over time. Can I ignore them? I don't think so as they will be contesting in objectives-based games and shooting down stuff in annihilation. Besides, for me to get any real kills, I need to get up close against an army that is better than mine in combat. I think I will try to take down the support units first before the inevitable confrontation with his deathstar. Yeesh....even the 5-man paladin squad is dangerous.

I think necron's best chance to win is in Seize Ground. Although Draigowing can have up to 6 scoring units by combat squadding and making his dreads scoring with Grand Strategy, I can probably take out those dreads fairly easily with either strategically placed deathrays or by sweeping attack them with my command barges. Then I will spread out and force his not-very-mobile deathstar to have to travel between objectives. Capture and control may be a draw. I have multiple (and fast!) units to contest and my wraiths have the resiliency to survive in combat, at least for a few turns. He has the resiliency to last but lack the mobility to get to the objective if I am able to take down his raven. Kill points, as usual, will probably favor the paladins unless I can somehow manage to table him (Haha!).

As for deployment, my MTO necrons really don't care about the deployment type. In Dawn of War, I may lose 1 round of spawning for my spyders, however, my vehicles will be coming in flat-out for cover and I will get 1 extra turn of Night-fight. Then I have the speed to easily cover ground in Pitched Battle and Spearhead.

Overall, I feel that necrons will be the slight underdog in this battle. Fighting an army of 2+ units really isn't their forte.


Grey Knights:
Grey knights cannot take the MTO necrons lightly. They are a very fast and dangerous army with a dangerous amount of attacks. More importantly, they will control the Movement phase so will have the advantage in that department, though Draigowing will control the Shooting and Assault phases. You may think that gives the grey knights the advantage, but keep in mind that 2 out of the 3 mission types are objectives. In these missions, the Movement phase is arguably even more crucial.

Target priority is something the knights really need to take into consideration. Obviously, they will need to take out the doom scythes as those can do the most damage. Then the wraiths and command barges are both equally as dangerous. And in objectives-based games, even the warriors are a threat. Probably the lowest threat to the paladins would be the scarabs and spyders, but don't count them out. They are still a threat because they will most likely be going after the stormraven and dreads.

Annihilation definitely favors the paladins. In objectives-based missions, if they can reach the objectives, then they will probably do fine. Necrons will have a hard time trying to get them off.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Mission: Seize Ground - 4 Objectives

Deployment: Spearhead

Initiative: Necrons


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Deployment:

Map of the terrain.

The terrain in the very middle - the Keebler Studios Tripple Can Candimonium Kit - I got from Reece's online store Frontline Gaming and I must say it turned out very well. They built and painted it for me at a very reasonable price. Check it out if you're looking for terrain. Highly recommended.

Anyways, back to the report.


2 objectives are here. Grey Knights intentionally place the 2nd objective close to the necron objective.


Necrons then place the 3rd objective far away to spread them out.


As for the 4th and last objective, grey knights place it near the center of the board and about 12" away from the other objective.

Basically, grey knights want the objectives to be closer together. Easier for them to reach and defend.


Necron deployment.


I deploy 2 squads of warriors, with 1 hiding behind the impassable hill. 2 units of warriors will be in reserves.


Grey knight deployment. Hopefully, the dread and ruins will be enough to give the paladins cover on the side with very little area terrain.

With Grand Strategy, Draigo makes both of the dreads scoring. Soladin will be walking on from reserves.


Overview of our deployment.

Draigowing fails to seize and we begin.


--------------------------------------------------------------


Necrons 1

Anrakyr moves flat-out 24".


Overlord moves flat-out as well. Doom scythe moves 12" in order to be able to shoot its deathray.


Necron movement. 1 spyder takes 1W from spawning (which I did at the beginning of the turn).


More necron movement. The other doom scythe moves 12" only as well.


Necrons then run.


1 doom scythe has a perfect view of the paladins without cover! I roll for distance and get 15", hitting 7 paladins!!! Librarian casts Shrouding anyways.

Lance-teks (crypteks with eldritch lance) fire at and shake the stormraven.


Out of the 7 hits, only 5 are wounded. Draigo makes his 3++ invuln and then 2 paladins make their 5++ invuln's! Only the hammer and 1 halberd is killed. Tesla destructors fail to do anything to the paladins.


The other doom scythe rolls for his deathray and also gets 15"!. It hits the dread and 2 paladins. Both paladins make their 3+ cover (from Shrouding) and the dread only gets stunned from a glancing deathray. Tesla destructors fail to do anything to the dread which was the primary target.

Finally, Anrakyr fails to take over the stormraven.

Wow....with a direct hit from the doom scythe and without cover, I was hoping to kill more paladins. Instead, I only kill 2 and do meaningless damage to the dread and raven, which will probably just get ignored next turn. Not very good at all.


Grey Knights 1
Solar-teks uses 1 of their Solar Pulses to make it Night-fight.


Both the dread and stormraven fortitudes off the stunned/shaken results (for the newer folks, that means they successfully cast Fortitude to ignore the shaken/stunned results). Grey knights then move. Stormraven moves 12"....


....and out disembarks the 5-man pallie squad, ready to kill some wraiths.


The paladins move as well.

Uh oh....huge mistake on the necron's behalf. I miscalculated the movement of my wraiths and just brought them into the paladinstar's assault range!


Psyfleman sees and fires at the doom scythe, immobilizing and stunning it.

Here is another mistake by my necrons - I totally forget that my spyder's fabricator claw array can try to repair the doom scythe's immobilization so never attempted to do so!


On the bright side, the other dread fires at Anrakyr's command barge but I pass my 2 cover saves.

5-man pallies fire at the 6 wraiths and causes 2W. Paladinstar don't fire at their target because they plan to charge.

And I almost forgot....the stormraven blows up the other doom scythe with its tl-lascannon and tl-multi-melta (it gets to fire both weapons thanks to Power of the Machine Spirit, or PotMS for short).


Both paladins make the charge!

Ironic, isn't it? It is the slower army that gets the 1st turn charge this game. LOL.


Amazingly, wraiths cause 3W to paladins and pallies fail to cause an unsaved wound in return. Wraiths win by 3 but paladins still pass morale.


The other combat doesn't go quite as well as the paladinstar wipes out the other wraiths. On the bright side, librarian takes 1W from Perils while trying to cast a psychic power and another paladin takes 1W from the wraiths.


Necrons 2

Overview of the top of Turn 2. I'm in a bad spot right now. Paladinstar is free and roaming around near my 2 objectives. Both doom scythes are practically disabled. 1 unit of wraiths is gone and the other will most likely be locked in combat for a while. How can I stop his paladinstar and can I turn the game around?


1 unit of warriors come in from reserves and goes after the far-left objective.


Another unit of warriors come in from the middle.


Spyders produce another 3 scarabs and takes another 1W for their trouble.


Anrakyr flies over the dread and wrecks him with his sweeping attack. He then disembarks and prepares to help out the wraiths.


The Overlord flies over the other dread, immobilizing and shaking it. He then disembarks as well.


Necron moves. Warriors actually move towards the paladinstar while scarabs/spyders move away from them.

I'm taking a big risk here. I'm trying to induce the paladins into going after the warriors instead of after the wraiths. This is what I mean by my warriors being a "threat". They're going to force the paladins to make a choice....either go after the more dangerous wraiths or try to take out the more squishy, objective-claiming warriors.


Spyders and scarabs move around the impassable (and environmentally-friendly ) terrain. Scarabs fleet and will go after the raven.

Now for shooting.


Anrakyr successfully controls the stormraven and fires upon the paladinstar. I forget about the mindstrike missiles!!! However, the lascannon and multi-melta does manage to kill 1 paladin. I then rapid-fire with 2 squads of warriors and the crypteks, killing another 1 paladin and putting 1W on Draigo.


Now for assault. Overlord charges dread and the scarabs assault the raven.


Anrakyr joins in the paladin-wraith melee.


The Overlord explodes the dread.


Scarabs manage to only strip down 3 points of armor from the raven. The raven is otherwise unharmed.


Finally, in assault, wraiths take out the warding stave and 1 sword paladin. Paladins in turn put 3W on wraiths, killing 1, and win combat. Anrakyr passes morale and wraiths make their No Retreat save.


Grey Knights 2

Overview of the bottom of Turn 2. Draigo uses Psychic Communion to delay the arrival of the soladin.


After deliberating for a bit, paladins finally decide to go after the scoring units. They prepare for a multi-charge. Gulp!


However, Draigo breaks off from the unit and goes to help out the other paladins. Double-gulp!!


Stormraven flies behind Anrakyr's command barge....


....and blows it up with a lascannon and multi-melta to the rear. Payback for the dreads!


Onto assault!


Draigo joins the wraith-paladin melee.


Paladins wipe out 1 squad of warriors, kill both crypteks and send the other unit of warriors running.


Here, we both rolling poorly and tie combat with 1W apiece - wraiths put 1W on an unwounded paladin and pallies kill a wraith with 1W remaining.

Finally, 1 of the crypteks gets back up due to Ever-living. I really needed that because now it means that the paladinstar needs to waste 1 more turn trying to kill the contesting cryptek.


Necrons 3

Overview of the top of Turn 3. Uh....it looks as if I may be off by 1 turn in the game.


Spyders spawn 3 more scarabs.


Overlord gets back into the barge and flies over the paladins. The ensuing sweeping attack puts 1W on another paladin.


Necron movement. Now here's where I'm not 100% sure if I played it right. I may post this question in YMDC if I don't get the answer here.

Since pallies killed the cryptecks and broke the warriors, I played the cryptek that got back up as its separate unit because it couldn't get back into coherency with another unit. Also, even if the warriors falling back were in range, not sure if the crypteks can join a unit that was falling back.

Anyways, at this point, I played the warriors as a separate unit than the crypteks. Because it is a unit of 5 (as opposed to 7 with the crypteks)and there were 3 left, I took the LD test to regroup and successfully regrouped them. If anyone thinks I played this wrong, please let me know and try to provide evidence why. I'd like to be sure. Thanks.


Other unit of warriors slowly creep up to the far-left objective.


Spyders and scarabs advance.


Rapid-fire by the warriors put another 1W on the paladins. Lance-tek misses.


Scarabs then multi-assault the raven and paladins locked in combat with the wraiths.


My sheer number of attacks wipe out 2 wounded paladins and wraiths put another 1W on Draigo (down to 2W left). Paladins and Draigo fail to do any damage in return.

Scarabs also explode the stormraven.


Draigo passes morale but paladin fails and falls back. As Anrakyr cannot consolidate into combat with Draigo, he breaks off from the assault and consoiidates towards the retreating paladin instead to keep him from regrouping.

Wow....I actually beat 5 pallies and Draigo!


Grey Knights 3

Overview of the bottom of Turn 3.


Soladin comes in by the GK objective. Other paladin continues to fall back.


Paladins are in a bind now. He needs to hope that Draigo can hold off the wraiths and scarabs, and then he needs to get rid of all the units contesting his objectives. He decides to multi-assault.


Despite my AV13 and flat-out cover save, paladins blow up the command barge with psycannons. The Overlord gets pinned in the ensuing explosion.


Paladins can't quite reach the 3-man warrior squad so settles for multi-assaulting the Overlord and cryptek.


He wipes them both out....


....but to his bewilderment, the Overlord gets back up! As the Overlord can get back up anywhere within 3" of where he "died", I place him so that he is contesting the objective.


Not only does Draigo survive another turn, but he also takes out 2 scarab bases and 1 wraith after combat and No Retreat saves.


Necrons 4

Overview of the top of Turn 4. Looks like I am off by 1 turn.


Anrakyr goes after the retreating paladin. I need to contest his objective.


Warriors converge onto the objective and paladins.


Spyders double-back to contest the other objective.


Finaly, my immobilized doom scythe has a target. The deathray hits the retreating paladin and then I roll a to wound. The testa-destructor also fails to kill him.


Rapid-fire from 2 warriors (and 1rapid-fire shot from a 3rd squad) downs 1 wounded paladin and puts 1W on the last unwounded paladin.


I then string the paladins out by attacking the 2 ends - 1 with my Overlord and the other with the spyders.


Anrakyr charges the fleeing paladin to try to pick up some extra movement.


He wipes out the paladin and consolidates to contest the GK objective!


Wraiths and scarabs finally put down the Lord of the paladins.


Librarian casts both Might and Hammerhand. Overlord mindshackles the non-hammerdin. Paladins force-weapon 2 spyders to death but fails to kill the Overlord. I might have put 1W on paladins, not quite sure, but paladins win combat. Spyder takes another 1W from No Retreat and Overlord passes morale!


Grey Knights 4

Not much left for grey knights to do. Soladin assaults Anrakyr. He needs to get rid of the contesting necron HQ and it's better than taking a Tachyon Arrow to the face and then getting assaulted next turn.


Soladin fails to hurt Anrakyr. The necron lord then causes 1W in return and breaks the soladin, causing him to fall back.


Again, the Librarian successfully casts both Might and Hammerhand....but this time, he perils on and kills himself! They wipe out the spyder and Overlord, but not before losing the warding stave and the sword.


Afterwards, paladins consolidate but only move 1". The right paladin actually had to consolidate away from the uncontested objective in order to get back into coherency! He may be out of claiming range.


Thinking that this was turn 5, I roll to see if the game continues and it does.


Necrons 5

Necrons go in for the kill.


Anrakyr moves towards the fleeing paladin. He fires his Tachyon Arrow but misses. No matter, the soladin will be off the table next turn.


Rapid-fire from 3 warrior units take out the hammerdin.


I then assault....


....and paladins are tabled.



Necrons are claiming 1 objective here.


And a 2nd objective here.



Victory to the Metallic Dead - Necrons!!!



Aftermath of the carnage.

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2012/01/05 15:22:06



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Made in us
Been Around the Block





If using BYO like you did in previous games I think will be a win for GK ,but if using rulebook random objectives I am guessing will end in a Draw as the GK will not be able to push through the wraiths,scarabs,spyders and warriors
Necrons have more mobility but I think here is an instance where paladins excel. The reason is they want to be engaged and their targets to get close. I think the librarian specifically can really hinder necron progress if can get pass the gloom prisms.

Sisters 1500 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Huntsville, AL

People keep underestimating the hitting power of the crons. Necrons are fast and hard hitting now, I guess it just takes a while for people to get used to that fact.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





New York / Los Angeles

I think this fight comes down to a few key factors:

Can the Dreadnoughts knock the Doom Scythes down before the Scythes reach the paladins?

Will Anrakyr get his hands on that storm raven before the mindstrike missiles get dumped?

How many warriors can Scott the Soladin kill before succumbing to statistics?

How does the GK player handle the spyders and scarabs with so few units without getting tied up for a few important rounds?

Is it going to be a KP game?

Will Wraiths follow the same rules laid out in the tyranid FAQ regarding whip coils (lash whips) vs. wargear? If so halberd paladins will still attack wraiths first regardless of whip coils.

As usual, looking forward to the results.

Soon to add

Proud supporter of Anrakyr, Scott the Paladin, and the Farsight faction. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





The game has only one factor to determine who is going to win, the general.

Who is the general of the Necrons and who is the general of the GK?

In fact, perhaps the poll should have those as the questions cuz any betting man would need to know before choosing.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Las Vegas, NV

Having seen this army in action, I think it will surprise some people. This is going to be a tough match-up, and I am excited to see the outcome!

Also, keep your eyes open for some ultra-cool terrain made by our store!

   
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Jacksonville, NC

MMM...... Not quite sure on this one, I want to say Draigowing, but rinning wraithwing myself I know how resiliant those wraiths are... guess it comes down to saves, and force weapons!

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This is goin to be good. Id use Anrakyr and sweep attack a dreadnought and mitm the storm raven as already mentioned. Take out anything mobile 1st and then the dreads. After that concentrate on the palidans.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA


Valkyrie wrote:- Scarabs nom-nomming the Paladins' armour away.

That's not very effective. Hitting on 5's, wounding on 5's with a 2+ save means that I would only cause 1 unsaved Wound with every 54 attacks! That means 13.5 scarabs just to cause 1W. Meanwhile, paladin force weapons would hurt a lot. The 12-man paladinstar unit can easily wipe out almost 30 scarabs bases after No Retreat saves in just 1 phase of combat!

No, scarabs will only attack weakened paladin squads but preferably will go raven/dread hunting. Otherwise, the No Retreat saves they would have to take will probably also wipe out the wraiths in the multi-assault as well.


whitespirit wrote:If using BYO like you did in previous games I think will be a win for GK ,but if using rulebook random objectives I am guessing will end in a Draw as the GK will not be able to push through the wraiths,scarabs,spyders and warriors
Necrons have more mobility but I think here is an instance where paladins excel. The reason is they want to be engaged and their targets to get close. I think the librarian specifically can really hinder necron progress if can get pass the gloom prisms.

It will just be the book missions determined randomly as normal.


Clay Williams wrote:People keep underestimating the hitting power of the crons. Necrons are fast and hard hitting now, I guess it just takes a while for people to get used to that fact.

Oh yeah. I can't believe my wraiths and spyders went through almost 55 FNP assault marines in 1 battle against BA! They will kill all but the toughest opponents.

Unforunately, the paladinstar is probably the toughest opponent out there. The only other unit that can even come close is the Space Wolf Wolfstar.


junk wrote:
Will Wraiths follow the same rules laid out in the tyranid FAQ regarding whip coils (lash whips) vs. wargear? If so halberd paladins will still attack wraiths first regardless of whip coils.

As there really isn't any ambiguity in the necron codex regarding this, I don't think you have to refer to another codex's FAQ for precedence. They may well FAQ it like that, but judging from GW's inconsistency, you can't be sure.

The only ambiguity is when whip coils come up against Howling Banshees. Then I would look at another codex's FAQ to see how they would rule it. Otherwise, I just usually play according to the RAW in the codex.


Kwi wrote:The game has only one factor to determine who is going to win, the general.

Who is the general of the Necrons and who is the general of the GK?

In fact, perhaps the poll should have those as the questions cuz any betting man would need to know before choosing.

I will be playing necrons and Draigowing will be played by jy2.

However, Part II of the Grey Knight Challenge will most likely be played by someone else.



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
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jy2 wrote:

junk wrote:
Will Wraiths follow the same rules laid out in the tyranid FAQ regarding whip coils (lash whips) vs. wargear? If so halberd paladins will still attack wraiths first regardless of whip coils.

As there really isn't any ambiguity in the necron codex regarding this, I don't think you have to refer to another codex's FAQ for precedence. They may well FAQ it like that, but judging from GW's inconsistency, you can't be sure.

The only ambiguity is when whip coils come up against Howling Banshees. Then I would look at another codex's FAQ to see how they would rule it. Otherwise, I just usually play according to the RAW in the codex.




Unfortunately, we've come across this argument before. The Lash Whips/Whip Coils reduce the Initiative value to 1, but the Halberd adds +2 initiative. The question of which piece of wargear takes precedence is still a valid one. The Precedent set by the tyranid codex noted that base initiative is reduced by the lash whip but it has no effect on wargear that modifies initiative on the defending model, such as the eldar mask. As a player of both GK and Necron I don't really care which way the faq falls, but RAW I would normally be tempted to rule in favor of the necrons; however the wording is comprable.

Lash Whip: Any model in base contact with a tyranid with one or more lash whips counts their initiative value as 1 until the end of the assault phase, regardless of their actual initiative value.
Whip Coils: Whilst any model in base contact with a model with whip coils they count their initiative value as 1 until the end of the assault phase, regardless of their actual initiative value.

Tyranid Faq:

Q: If a model with Lash Whips is attacking a model with an Initiative-boosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g. Furious Charge, an Eldar Banshee Mask etc.), which order are the Initiatives modified?
A: The Lash Whips will reduce an enemy model’s initiative to 1 before any other modifiers are applied. So, a model with Furious Charge that assaults a Tyranid with Lash Whips will strike at Initiative 2, and an Eldar with a Banshee Mask will strike at Initiative 10 in the first round of assault

Based on precedent, a GK player could argue that a halberd's +2 is factored after the whip coil's initiative value replacement.

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Reecius wrote:Having seen this army in action, I think it will surprise some people. This is going to be a tough match-up, and I am excited to see the outcome!

Also, keep your eyes open for some ultra-cool terrain made by our store!

It's (the terrain) so cool I made it the centerpiece of the map.


junk wrote:
Unfortunately, we've come across this argument before. The Lash Whips/Whip Coils reduce the Initiative value to 1, but the Halberd adds +2 initiative. The question of which piece of wargear takes precedence is still a valid one. The Precedent set by the tyranid codex noted that base initiative is reduced by the lash whip but it has no effect on wargear that modifies initiative on the defending model, such as the eldar mask. As a player of both GK and Necron I don't really care which way the faq falls, but RAW I would normally be tempted to rule in favor of the necrons; however the wording is comprable.

Lash Whip: Any model in base contact with a tyranid with one or more lash whips counts their initiative value as 1 until the end of the assault phase, regardless of their actual initiative value.
Whip Coils: Whilst any model in base contact with a model with whip coils they count their initiative value as 1 until the end of the assault phase, regardless of their actual initiative value.

Tyranid Faq:

Q: If a model with Lash Whips is attacking a model with an Initiative-boosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g. Furious Charge, an Eldar Banshee Mask etc.), which order are the Initiatives modified?
A: The Lash Whips will reduce an enemy model’s initiative to 1 before any other modifiers are applied. So, a model with Furious Charge that assaults a Tyranid with Lash Whips will strike at Initiative 2, and an Eldar with a Banshee Mask will strike at Initiative 10 in the first round of assault

Based on precedent, a GK player could argue that a halberd's +2 is factored after the whip coil's initiative value replacement.

I agree with you and I hope that GW FAQ's it that way to be consistent with tyranids. But the way I would play it is that whip coils would supercede halberds, furious charge, etc. (with the exception of Banshee Mask) and let me tell you why. But first, I will start off with a little history.

When the 5th ed. space marine codex came out, they got 3++ storm shields. Everyone else - Dark Angels, Black Templars and Daemonhunters - even though they had the exact same wargear, only benefitted from a 4++ invuln that was only usable in close-combat. Now the wargear in the C:SM was more than just precedence, it was an actual, solid piece of rule that was published in an actual codex and not just a FAQ. So why couldn't the other marine codices use the more updated C:SM wargear? Hey, it's clear what GW's intent was, wasn't it? It wasn't until just a few months ago this year that GW officially said yes, all those marine variants can now use the new SM updated wargear.

Thus, my philosophy is that you cannot use another codex's rules, let alone their FAQ, to dictate how the rules in your codex works. You have to abide by the RAW from your own codex. The only time you should use precedence is if there is a conflict in your own rules that cannot be adequately covered by the codex or the BRB (or BRB FAQ's). In my opinion, the rules for whip coils is crystal clear. Halberds and furious charge may increase your Init by +1 or +X, but whip coils say that you still strike at I1 (no matter what your initiative is). The only conflict is when whip coils meet banshee masks, which says that banshees strike at I10. In this case, I would use the precedent set by the tyranid FAQ to resolve this matter.

So while I would like for whip coils to work just like lash whips for the sake of consistency, until GW says that I can do so, I can't.




6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
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Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
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jy2 wrote: text


That and:

Q: If a model with a Nemsesis force halberd has had his
Initiative reduced to a fixed number by an
ability/special rule, do they still get the +2 Initiative
from the Halberd? (p54)
A: No.


[Source: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1830601a_Grey_Knights_v1_1.pdf ]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/04 12:45:05


 
   
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Wow. GW with the three pointer in it's own basket. Good find, wish i thought to look in the gk faq when I was on the other side of the argument.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/04 14:26:10


Soon to add

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Battle report started.


Mannfred wrote: That and:

Q: If a model with a Nemsesis force halberd has had his
Initiative reduced to a fixed number by an
ability/special rule, do they still get the +2 Initiative
from the Halberd? (p54)
A: No.


[Source: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1830601a_Grey_Knights_v1_1.pdf ]

Nice find man. I didn't even think to look at the GK FAQ's for this one, though in all honesty, I didn't feel that I needed to yet.


junk wrote:Wow. GW with the three pointer in it's own basket. Good find, wish i thought to look in the gk faq when I was on the other side of the argument.

LOL.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/04 15:47:12



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
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AWESOME! can't wait to see the results of this ultimate showdown. *Pulls off an Epic fist pump for the win!*

"If you're the last one alive, you're not fighting hard enough!"
Exalted Pariah Wrote
Though, with all of humanity united maybe the Emperor would fight Gork and Mork in the background to stop this from happening....
Then humanity wins as Pedro Kantor Falcon Punches the Arch Arsonist so hard into Gazghull that it stuns him long enough for Brother Jarod of the Black Templar(a ven dread who HATES orkz) to throw a barely concious Yarrick powerklaw first into his face.

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I just looked at the deployment pictures and synopsis of the mission. Then i noticed that with spearhead deployment, there's only about 19.5" between deployment zones (edge to edge), factor in the 12" move and the 12" start line, the doom scythes will be able to hit no fewer than 2 (likelihood being they'll hit 5-8) paladins in that nice conga line deployment. Given the proper angle, they'll be saving vs instant death on only their 5+ invuln save.

Things aren't looking so good for the paladin star so far, unless i'm mistaken in my analysis.

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
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jy2, don't forget that the doom scythes also have TL tesla destructors, and can still fire both after moving 12". That could have done a lot more damage to those dreads, and potentially arced into the pallies for an extra save or two. I didn't see any mention of them so I thought I'd throw out the reminder.

11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die.
++

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I am very curious to see why the necrons didn't opt to go second in an objective game where they are more mobile and have two pulses? Seems to me you could have denied the GK a turn and taken the last turn to contest.


   
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tetrisphreak wrote:I just looked at the deployment pictures and synopsis of the mission. Then i noticed that with spearhead deployment, there's only about 19.5" between deployment zones (edge to edge), factor in the 12" move and the 12" start line, the doom scythes will be able to hit no fewer than 2 (likelihood being they'll hit 5-8) paladins in that nice conga line deployment. Given the proper angle, they'll be saving vs instant death on only their 5+ invuln save.

Things aren't looking so good for the paladin star so far, unless i'm mistaken in my analysis.

My doom scythe did manage to get a good look at his pallies (no cover) and good distance (15" hitting 7 guys). Unfortunately for necrons, he made his 5++ invuln saves.

The other doom scythe, which was farther away, also rolled 15" for distance but only shook the dread (which was later ignored via Fortitude) and hit 2 paladins, who both made their 3+ cover (from Shrouding).


Maelstrom808 wrote:jy2, don't forget that the doom scythes also have TL tesla destructors, and can still fire both after moving 12". That could have done a lot more damage to those dreads, and potentially arced into the pallies for an extra save or two. I didn't see any mention of them so I thought I'd throw out the reminder.

I forgot to mention it, but I didn't forget them. They did nothing to the dreads or paladins, though 1 did arc off and hit Anrakyr's barge 6 times. Lol. Couldn't do anything to it though.

I'll add that in the report later on.


Red Corsair wrote:I am very curious to see why the necrons didn't opt to go second in an objective game where they are more mobile and have two pulses? Seems to me you could have denied the GK a turn and taken the last turn to contest.

I did it in order to pick the deployment sides. I wanted to give paladins the side with the least amount of area terrain. I also wanted to pick the sides with the most objectives for the necrons.



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
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jy2 wrote:
Maelstrom808 wrote:jy2, don't forget that the doom scythes also have TL tesla destructors, and can still fire both after moving 12". That could have done a lot more damage to those dreads, and potentially arced into the pallies for an extra save or two. I didn't see any mention of them so I thought I'd throw out the reminder.

I forgot to mention it, but I didn't forget them. They did nothing to the dreads or paladins, though 1 did arc off and hit Anrakyr's barge 6 times. Lol. Couldn't do anything to it though.

I'll add that in the report later on.





Yay for QS, I guess

11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die.
++

Tuagh wrote: If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.
 
   
 
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