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The Xmas Challenge - 2K Necrons vs Sisters of Battle - Debut of the Doom Scythe (Completed)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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How will the Doom Scythes contribute to the Necron onslaught?
Doom scythes play a large role in the Necron victory.
Doom scythes get shot down quickly but Necrons still win.
Draw.
Although the doom scythes played a vital role in the offense, Sisters still win.
Doom scythes were a disappointment as Sisters win it.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

This game was to test out the new necron doom scythes. The doom scythe is a fascinating heavy support choice that is both scary for its offensive potential as well as for its fragility. 1 shot and you could potentially lose 175pts just like that, or you could potentially wipe out an entire unit of paladins or 3 land raiders under the right conditions. It is also a super-fast vehicle that gives the necrons unheard of mobility. Yes, with the 2 scythe vehicles, they can actually now match the speed of arguably the fastest army right now - Dark Eldar. In my opinion, there are few units more intriguing than the doom scythe in the necron codex.

There are some controversies with regards to this vehicle, with the main one being its deathray. So pending a FAQ, this is our intepretation of the deathray. It is a shooting attack and thus cannot be fired into combat or your own units. Now I know there will be those of you who will disagree with this interpretation, but this is how we chose to play it. We chose to play it as restrictive as possible.

For my army, I basically took my Wraithwing Necrons and swapped out some spyders, crypteks and 1 unit of troops for a pair of doom scythes and 1 night scythe. As there are no models out for the 2 scythes yet, I chose to proxy eldar wave serpents as the necron vehicles.

Finally, this is only the 2nd game for my opponent's new Sisters of Battle army so please take that into consideration when judging his tactics.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


2000 Wraithwing Necrons vs Sisters of Battle


2K Necrons (My list)

Necron Overlord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Weave
Catacomb Command Barge
1x Cryptek - Harbinger of Destruction, Solar Pulse

Destroyer Lord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Warscythe, Weave

5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
Night Scythe (Black wave serpent)

10x Canoptek Scarabs
6x Canoptek Wraiths - 3x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Blaster
6x Canoptek Wraiths - 4x Whip Coils (Had extra 5pts left)

3x Canoptek Spyders - Claw Array, Gloom Prism
Doom Scythe (Blue wave serpents)
Doom Scythe (Blue wave serpents)



2K Battle Sisters

Saint Celestine

Arch-Confessor Kyrinov (Makes all friendly units within 6" Fearless)
5x Crusaders, 4x Death Cults - Rhino w/Extra Armour

10x Battle Sisters - Combi-flamer, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Rhino
10x Battle Sisters - Combi-flamer, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Rhino
10x Battle Sisters - Combi-flamer, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Rhino
10x Battle Sisters - Combi-flamer, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Rhino

5x Dominions - 2x Meltaguns, Rhino
5x Dominions - 2x Meltaguns, Rhino
5x Dominions - 2x Meltaguns, Rhino

Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Mission: Capture & Control

Deployment: Dawn of War

Initiative: Necrons


-------------------------------------------------------------------


PRE-GAME ANALYSIS:

Necrons:
I actually think that my chances for a victory here is quite good. I feel that I match up quite well against my opponent's army. My army is good in taking out tanks and I will also do a number on his infantry, fearless or not. Also, does he want to tarpit me with fearless battle sisters, or will I tarpit him with my scarabs? Something to consider.

My army is a scary prospect for my opponent. I've got 6 really fast threats, all of which are equally dangerous and cannot be ignored - my command barge, scarabs, both units of wraiths and both doom scythes. All can take out tanks, and all are dangerous even to infantry. In my opinion, I just don't think my opponent has enough guns/offense to take down my army. The older witchhunter immo-spam army would have had a better chance.

There is not much that I fear in my opponent's army. I have the resiliency to survive his shooting and the speed to counter-assault him the moment he disembarks from his transports. I am prepared to lose my scythes with no qualms whatsoever, but don't think it is that easy to kill them, even with their AV11. Doing so is analyzing them in a vacuum, because my opponent just cannot ignore the rest of my army and also has to deal with 2 turns of Night-fight (Dawn of War and then my Solar Pulse). As a matter of fact, I predict my wraiths will do all the heavy lifting, with all the other units providing the necessary support. Even the doom scythes are actually just a support unit.

Outflanking dominions? Don't really care about them. They are just not enough to deal with my warriors. Out of my 4 warrior units, I only need 1 to survive and he will be in the nightscythe. The rest will just be screening units that will draw out his outflanking units and hold them in place for my support units to finish them off.

Honestly, I see my opponent as a big underdog in this matchup. Against any other necron army, he may stand a chance, but against the merciless onslaught of my Maximum Threat Overload 'crons, he will need to play an almost flawless game to have any hopes for a victory.


Battle Sisters:
Against my army, my opponent may have to think outside the box. If he plays it the traditional witchhunter way - with his tanks castled up and giving cover to each other - it may well hurt him. Doom scythes....heck, my entire wraithwing army....loves a tightly packed army. That means there'll be a lot of multi-assaults. However, he would also have much more support that way as well.

He needs to focus-fire on my wraiths and try to wipe them out 1 unit at a time. He needs to space out his sisters to avoid a multi-charge. Unfortunately, that's kind of hard to do when everyone is relying on his HQ's 6" Fearless bubble. Use his dominions to take out my command barge and doom scythes. I'm not sure if the new SoB rhinos come with searchlights, but they would be a big help to light up my skimmers for his exorcists to shoot down. Otherwise, focus his exorcists on my wraiths as well. He needs to take them down to a more manageable level (like, 1 or 2 guys), but even still, they would be a threat to the smallish 5-man squads.

I don't know if outflanking would work, but it is definitely a tactic he could try. Question would be should he, or is it better to deploy his dominions with the rest of his army for support? Honestly, I feel them to be a distraction at best, but anything he does to divide up my forces may help.

Finally, I think he has to take a gamble and play aggressive against me. Do not let me corner him in by his objective. If I do that, even a superior army would have trouble threatening my objective as they will be just too busy trying to fend off my threats.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Deployment:

Map of the terrain.


My objective.


Sisters of Battle objective.

Neither of us deploy anything on the board.


My reserves - 1 squad of warriors in the night scythe.

After thinking for a while, my opponent decides not to outflank his domininons.


--------------------------------------------------------------


Necrons 1

Necrons come on. Skimmers move flat-out.


Necrons then run.


SoB 1


My opponent comes in and castles up. Dominions and HQ in the front. Battle sisters in the rear and to the right (from my perspective).

He is taking a big gamble clustering up his vehicles like that.


He then pops smoke on all but the exorcists.

In his shooting phase, I believe only 1 exorcist sees anything but doesn't manage to do any damage.


Necrons 2

Overview of the top of Turn 2. Let the carnage begin!


Night scythes come in from reserves. Spyders spawn 3 scarabs and then necrons advance.



Wraiths get ready to pounce.


Command Barge flies over a battle sister rhino and wrecks it.


Doom scythes then fire their deathrays. One of the deathrays weapon destroys a rhino and blows up an exorcist. The other ray shakes 1 rhino and weapon destroy another rhino. I believe the tesla cannon shakes another 1 rhino and its arc stuns a 3rd rhino.


My lance-tek (cryptek with lance) immobilizes the middle exorcist.


Wraiths run.


And finally, my wraiths with destroyer lord multi-assault 2 dominion rhinos....


....wrecking 1 and immobilizing the other.

And you not what? I'm actually not surprised at the devastation I caused.


SoB 2

Battle sisters (from the stunned rhino), dominions and St. Celestine prepare for their counter-attack.


As a matter of fact, most of the sisters disembark from their transports and prepare for retaliation.


Deathcult/crusader proxies surround my wraiths and get ready for the counter-charge. Kyrinov stays in his transport. 1 unit of dominions go after my 1 of my doom scythes.


Dominons manage to immobilize my command barge after I've just moved flat-out. I should be wrecked, right? Wrong. Necron command barges have this little trick where they can transfer any results of Immobilization or Weapon Destroyed into 1W for their Overlord instead (without any saves of any kind, of course). So naturally, I put 1W on my Overlord to save the barge.


Focus-fire from 2 units of battle sisters, his dominions (who failed to twin-link their guns) and both exorcists only manages to kill 4 wraiths as well as put 2W on my Destroyer Lord and 1W on a 5th wraith.

His other unit of dominions also fail to twin-link their meltas and then proceed to miss my doom scythe with both meltas.


He then assaults them with St. Celestine, but my Destroyer Lord's mindshackle scarabs causes Celestine to attack herself.


My lord then insta-gibs her with his warscythe.


His conclave assaults my other squad of wraiths.


Wraiths laugh as the conclave only manages to cause 1W and then the wraiths proceed to kill 5, plus 1 to No Retreat.



Necrons 3

Spyders spawn more scarabs. Necrons advance.


Command barge moves at cruising speed, wrecking yet another transport. Overlord disembarks from the barge.


2-wraith unit and destroyer lord splits off. They prepare to multi-assault 2 units.


Doom scythes prepare to unleash more pain.


1 doom scythe wrecks another rhino and weapon destroys the immobilized exorcist with its deathray.


The other doom scythe immobilizes a dominion rhino and kills 3 dominions with its tesla-destructor. They pass morale.


An arcing tesla shot actually kills 2 sisters in combat with my D-Lord.


Scarabs fleet forwards.


Wraiths and D-Lord (Destroyer Lord) assault.


Wraiths kill only 1 sister. The Lord kills 4 and break the squad. I fail to sweep them due to my low initiative and they fall back.


Scarabs multi-assault 3 sister units - 2 battle sisters and 1 dominion - tying them up for the rest of the game. Good, now they can't shoot me.


In the large scrimmage, I kill 3 battle sisters and my opponent kills 3 scarab bases (after No Retreat saves).


My Overlord assaults his rhino and immobilizes it.


Finally, wraiths wipe out his conclave and consolidate towards the scarab-sisters melee.

Things have just gone from bad to worst for my opponent.


SoB 3

My opponent cannot win as he has almost nothing left to contest my objective with. Almost all his vehicles have been disabled, so he is trying to go for the tie. Fleeing battle sisters uses Faith to regroup. Exorcist moves up. The last unit of battle sisters disembark to try to help out against the wraiths.


Again, his dominions go after my doom scythe and only manages to stun it.


Exorcist shoots down my D-Lord, who fails to get back up. (BTW, St. Celestine also failed to get back up.)


Dominions then assault the doom scythe only to nothing to it.


Battle sisters double-team my wraiths. They fail to do anything and I kill 1 sister.

Scarabs continue to tie up his sisters in combat.


Necrons 4

My doom scythe immobilizes itself on terrain. Overlord goes to try to contest his objective.


Spyders generate 3 more scarabs. Other doom scythe moves out of the way. Warriors prepare to rapid-fire his 2 dominions. Dominions would not survive.


Wraiths ignore the large scrimmage and go after his sisters near his objective. It will be game over soon.


Doom scythe blows up his last exorcist. The tesla arcs into the nearby combat, putting 1W on a wraith and killing 4 sisters!


My other doom scythe, the immobilized one, wrecks his tin box that was once an exorcist. The tesla arcs into the scarab combat and takes out 1 scarab base.


Time to assault. Spyders explode his immobilized rhino.


Scarabs kill 5 sisters (2 from 1 squad and 3 from another). He kills 3 scarab bases in return.


Finally, wraiths assault his sisters in combat with my other wraiths. I wipe out both squads of sisters and consolidate towards his objective.

I have my objective firmly in hand. Not only can he stop me from contesting his objective, but I will wipe out his sisters holding the objective next turn. He cannot win so we call the game here.




Victory to the Metallic Dead - Necrons!!!


-------------------------------------------------------------------


POST-GAME ANALYSIS:

Necrons:
My doom scythes rocked this game. They caused so much damage! My wraiths disabled 2 tanks, my command barge 2 tanks and my spyders 1 (which was already immobilized due to my doom scythes). My doom scythes killed another 5 tanks, including all 3 of his exorcists as well as shaking/stunning a few more and immobilizing the tank that my spyders destroyed. If I was to grade them, I would give them an A+ this game. They far exceeded my expectations, and to top it off, they survived! But honestly, with the proper application of many threats and night-fight, I actually thought that they had a decent chance to survive.

They (the doom scythes) are without a doubt my MVP's of the game. Now I've got to test them against a shooty army that will truly put my wraithwing to the test. Next stop, perhaps Reece's tournament winning Imperial Guards or maybe even my own Crowe-Purifiers or Draigowing.

The night scythe didn't do anything special. They really only had 2 chances to shoot after coming in from reserves on Turn 2. I believe their shooting killed a couple of sisters and not much else. They were never at all put to the test or even threatened this game. None of my weaker units - my troops - were, my opponent was just too preoccupied with my threats.

Wraiths were their solid self as normal. IMO they are the best units in the codex. They disabled 2 transports, wiped out my opponent's mini-deathstar (the conclave), killed St. Celestine (actually, my D-Lord did that) and took out 3 units of sisters (I believe 2 troops and 1 dominions). In all my battles, they have consistently performed admirably and absorbed a lot of enemy firepower. They are the true workhorse in this list and is its most dangerous threat.

Although scarabs didn't kill any tanks this game, they didn't need to. Wraiths, doom scythes and command barge were more than enough. However, they were still an integral part of my strategy as they tied up a large portion of my opponent's army and prevented him from using a portion of his offense. This just goes to show that scarabs and spyders can still contribute against non-mech armies.

Overall, I am happy so far with this build and will continue to test it out. Doom scythes are fragile, but when used carefully, they can contribute in a big way. They are just brutal if they are not taken out quickly, yet at the same time, they are not that easy to take out quickly with night-fight. Finally, they will be my anti-paladin solution as I don't really have an answer for paladins with my Scarab-farm build.

I want to thank SabrX for being my opponent once again. I may have caught him by surprise this time, but I am sure he will be more prepared for my wraithwing the next time we face.


Battle Sisters: (by SabrX)
I didn't expect jy2's scarab to tie up the rear Battle Sister unit. I was hoping his Wraith would dive in after finishing the Crusader, but he jumped over combat and went straight for my objective.

I'm still amazed how resilient the Wraith-wing is. I concentrated two Battle Sister units, a Dominion squad, Saint Celestine, and an Exorcist into a single unit. The Destroyer Lord and 2 Wraiths manage to survive.

Kyrinov didn't play a huge role in this game other than stalling jy2's other Wraith unit for a turn. The Battle Sisters and Dominions didn't need his fearless bubble against the Scarabs. I still think picking Kyrinov was the right choice. Jacob would have been instant killed and FNP wouldn't work against Str6 attacks (Crusaders and Death Cults are T3 meaning St6 = instant death). The Extra attacks also wouldn't help because of Whip Coils.

The Doom Scythe were a major thorn in my side. I couldn't shoot at them due to turn 1 night fighting. Later on, I sent a suicide Dominion squad who failed their faith power and missed both melta-shots. Despite there outstanding performance, I still think they aren't a good pick in the current meta-game. Nid Hive Guards, IG, GK psy-rifle dread, SW, and other armies with considerable anti-mech range can take out Doom Scythe. IMO, jy2's 8-9 Spyder list is better.

In hindsight, I should have placed my objective deployed in diagonally across in the opposite corner. It would have allowed me to make full use of my army's mobility, force jy2 to spread out his units, and grant me a couple turns until night fighting wears off. I should have also kept a couple Dominion units in reserve in hopes of out-flanking and contesting jy2's objective late game.

Good game jy2. Thanks for letting me borrow your IG models for conclave proxy.

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2011/12/26 08:24:20



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Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Jacksonville, NC

mmmm.... Doomscythes.... looking forward to this; I'm thinking maybe running 1 in my 2k would do me some good!

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Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Tokyo, Japan

I'm still guessing they will get blown up just like the poor storm ravens and valk's in all my games but if you play with that in mind i.e. it's gonna be a fire magnet so you can essentially move everything else up not bothering too much with cover, it probably would have served its purpose.

+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

Zid wrote:mmmm.... Doomscythes.... looking forward to this; I'm thinking maybe running 1 in my 2k would do me some good!

Just as long as you have Immotehk or Solar Pulse. You need the help of Night-fight to run them properly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sudojoe wrote:I'm still guessing they will get blown up just like the poor storm ravens and valk's in all my games but if you play with that in mind i.e. it's gonna be a fire magnet so you can essentially move everything else up not bothering too much with cover, it probably would have served its purpose.

Unfortunately, they are quite pricey to be just a "distraction" unit. I'd rather my opponents fired at my wraiths or scarabs instead. In order to run them properly, either bring tools for Night-fight or you're going to have to deepstrike them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/24 23:21:28



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
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Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





Concord CA

Well its a good thing you have got night fight, I think it depends on how much terrain there is on the board for how effective those doom scythes are gonna be. I have never seen them in a game, but there should be a lot of targets for them in this one. The sob just needs to remember to stay spread out, try and attack those doom scyths from different directions or try and out shoot them with all the melta's and rhinos theyve got. To hard to tell how effective they will be at the moment, im just gonna guess the doom scythes are not gonna do much, just b/c I think that is the more likely. Who is gonna win though? Idk jy is a great player. You should have put a poll for how well Saint Celestine will do once she gets into combat with those scarabs

I will...never be a memory 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Tokyo, Japan

Unfortunately, they are quite pricey to be just a "distraction" unit. I'd rather my opponents fired at my wraiths or scarabs instead. In order to run them properly, either bring tools for Night-fight or you're going to have to deepstrike them.


I'm curious as I haven't seen the model yet but how big is it? I.e. is it likely to get mishap?

Armor 11 all around isn't going to last long vs exorcists but I guess there's the cover saves at least.

Wierdly enough, every time I reserve my storm raven, It never comes in till turn 4-5 when things have already gone to pot and now a days I just run it straight down the enemy's throat holding interceptors that can keep going into the back row. I tend to just deploy it but keep it way in the back even when I go 2nd because terrible bad reserve rolls that I seem to have. That way when it's my turn at least it can go flat out and get the cover. Usually it's out of range of anything that can blow it up (cept IG that is).

+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Jacksonville, NC

jy2 wrote:
Zid wrote:mmmm.... Doomscythes.... looking forward to this; I'm thinking maybe running 1 in my 2k would do me some good!

Just as long as you have Immotehk or Solar Pulse. You need the help of Night-fight to run them properly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sudojoe wrote:I'm still guessing they will get blown up just like the poor storm ravens and valk's in all my games but if you play with that in mind i.e. it's gonna be a fire magnet so you can essentially move everything else up not bothering too much with cover, it probably would have served its purpose.

Unfortunately, they are quite pricey to be just a "distraction" unit. I'd rather my opponents fired at my wraiths or scarabs instead. In order to run them properly, either bring tools for Night-fight or you're going to have to deepstrike them.



I do, dunno if you saw my list, but its basically a Wraithwing concept. I think the addition of a single scythe at 2k would be good for facing gunline style armies, or just for general disruption. Anything to cause my opponent to split up and allow for the wraiths to gangbeat em!

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Made in us
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




New York, USA

Deep stiking Doom Scythe, mmmm, I love the smell of atomised zealots in the mornin'. Smells like, victory! Go necrons!

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Made in us
Calm Celestian






Ireland

I think that's an odd Sisters list. Mixing the sisters squads like that leads to them not being as effective in any one area.

I think a better bet is going all melta with half and then all flamer with the other. I've had much better luck that way.

9 Sisters and a Superior with a Combi-melta, 2 meltaguns in a Rhino is a very effective 190 points. It's focused on a single task and doesn't get distracted. Plus bolters that squad would wreck a 5 man warrior squad in addition to being able to destroy any vehicle on the table.

Then 9 Sisters and a Superior with Combi-flamer, a flamer and a H. Flamer in a rhino is also a great 195 points. Ruin Scarabs and can take down Wraiths as well.

Also running the living Saint out there on her own is just asking her to get killed. Yeah she can come back but she can still be instantly killed by a S6 weapon. I usually run her in a squad of Seraphim for protection.

Plus, No Jacobus? He alone makes deathcult amazing, plus 1 attack and re-roll failed attacks on the turn they charge. He'd be worth his weight in gold just for that. But then add in the re-roll of the faith points and hes an auto-take (Which is a stupid way to design a codex in my opinion.)

Still, I don't know enough about the new Necrons to muse on how well they will do.

Of course this is my opinion but I find staying focused with individual squads is more effective.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/12/25 03:17:55


"Suffering is Faith, Faith is Strength.

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Made in ca
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet






Canada

Interested to see how this one goes, I'm somewhat wary of Doom Scythes (I yelled "WTF" when I read the rules for them and Tesseract Labyrinths) so I would like to see how they play in a game!

   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Syracuse, NY

That SoB list is basically the standard loadout from the previous immolator spam lists. I still think it is a good flexible loadout for the squad.

Celestine should be run solo, Seraphim are a waste of a Fast Attack spot that could be used by Dominions.

I think Jacobus has more raw power than Kyrinov, but a 6" fearless bubble is nice with how terrible the new SoB fold in CC.

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Made in us
Calm Celestian






Ireland

I actually find that a Squad of Seraphim is incredibly effective. Double attacking handflamers with a re-roll can wipe out pretty much anything.

Against a normal sized marine squad out of a rhino I can average about 35 hits with just the squads flamers. With a re-roll that's what? 18 wounds. That's about 5-6 dead marines before you add in the bolt pistols and the superiors plasma pistol (if you want) That's another 2 dead marines without the plasma.

So you're looking at 7-8 dead marines just from shooting for 195 points. Then you could charge them and probably put them out of their misery. Plus you get roughly the same amount of damage output with 5 Seraphim with 2 twin flamers.

For harder targets add in the Saint with her heavy flamer and a power sword. That combo should kill most normal sized MEQ or QED for around 300 points.

Also, I'd rather my basic Sisters squads break in combat so the opponent can be shot to death rather than hang around and take a bunch of fearless wounds only to die again later.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/25 04:12:40


"Suffering is Faith, Faith is Strength.

Generations have suffered with the same devotion that we can offer but once. Still, our Faith leads us through these dark times like a beacon. It will guide us to triumph over these abominations. Either by breaking them upon us like waves against a limitless, golden peak or by thrusting through them like the spear of the Immortal Emperor Himself." - Cannoness Aoife, Order of the desert rose #Yesallwomen

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Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Seraphim with Celestine is kind of a waste, imo. You want St C to take shots, that's what she's there for.

I'm really confused about the squads of 5 dominions with a Rhino though. If you're only going to take 5, take the Scouting TL-MM immo. If you're going to take a rhino, than take 4 specials.

I completely agree that Kyrinov over Jacobus is a really strange choice though. With Jacobus, you can trade 3 of those crusaders for DCA.

Lastly, that's a LOT of BSS, even at 2k points. I would trade at least one of those out for more immos (grab some cheap celestians with TL-MM Immos and upgrade those Dominion rhinos to TL-MM immos).

As much as I love the new SoB, I just don't think that list has enough punch for 2K. I'm going to give it to the crons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
calypso2ts wrote:That SoB list is basically the standard loadout from the previous immolator spam lists. I still think it is a good flexible loadout for the squad.

I agree that those are standard loadouts from the old book, but they need to be updated to the new book. I went to Melta/Multi for by BSS, double flamer for my doms and double melta for celestians. The list just changed a lot of roles from what we used to do.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/12/25 05:49:06


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Cool, cool, cool. Goin to be really interesting to see the doomscythes in action. From the lists, it looks like to me that the Necrons will have a better chance of winning this. The Wraiths are just really durable with that 3++ save and the scarabs will really pester the rhinos. Id use the scarabs to coral the rhinos and try to unleash the doom ray on em. Easier said then done though : )
   
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The Sisters list is a bit old school. I think the Flamer/combi-Flamer loadout doesn't make much sense now that Divine Guidance isn't in play.

I strongly disagree with Celtic Strike's assertions that you should specialize your Battle Sister squads. If you have melta/melta in the squad, the VSS should have a combi-flamer. Her third melta shot won't add much, but dropping a template can be clutch if you find yourself near some good targets. I personally go Flamer(Heavy if I have the pts)/Melta/Combi-Melta, but I wouldn't argue the Melta/Melta/Combi-Flamer route. If you're tailoring against Necrons the Heavy Flamers are key since so much of their army is 4+.

I'll repeat everyone else's assertion that Kyrinov and extra Crusaders with the Conclave is insane. I'm not sure who your opponent is, but either he's taking the army he has models for or he doesn't want his Conclave to be "too good". There's no reason to take more than 3 Crusaders and Jacobus just takes the whole thing to the next level.

I think the half size Dominion squad with a Rhino is not a great choice either. If you're going half-strength, take advantage of the ability to take a MM Immolator, otherwise, max out and take 4 meltas and a VSS w/ combi-plasma. If you swap out one of the Exorcists for a HB Retributor squad you can get two full strength Dominions and a full strength Seraphim squad, which I think would be much stronger.

For all of these reasons I think the weird Sisters army might lose to the Necrons, although, if they do, it won't be because of the Doom Scythes. Of all the armies a Doom Scythe would be good against Sisters are probably the least effected. Sisters have no big units. Your opponent doesn't have a single choice worth more than about 170pts so unless he piles up all of his tanks in a nice line, your Death Rays will be hard pressed to find a good target. Then when they whiff, they'll get shot down by melta or Exorcists.
   
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Amerikon wrote:The Sisters list is a bit old school. I think the Flamer/combi-Flamer loadout doesn't make much sense now that Divine Guidance isn't in play.

I strongly disagree with Celtic Strike's assertions that you should specialize your Battle Sister squads. If you have melta/melta in the squad, the VSS should have a combi-flamer. Her third melta shot won't add much, but dropping a template can be clutch if you find yourself near some good targets. I personally go Flamer(Heavy if I have the pts)/Melta/Combi-Melta, but I wouldn't argue the Melta/Melta/Combi-Flamer route. If you're tailoring against Necrons the Heavy Flamers are key since so much of their army is 4+.


Huh, I never really thought of a melta/melta/combi flamer route with the BSS. That's actually a good idea. I think I'll try that. I've probably been playing eldar too long.

Yeah, too many crusaders.

Also, no combi-weapons in the Dominion squads? Why not?
I think 2 full dominion squads with 4 melta and a combi with a banner in a Rhino OR a half squad with two meltas a combi a banner in a MM immolator.

We can go back and forth on whether adding Celestine to a squad of Seraphim is a good idea or not (I like it, others don't - and that's fine) but I personally find that at least SOME seraphim are indispensable,

I think just based on army composition the Necrons are going to win, but again, I don't know enough about the doom scythes to know for sure.

I know its after the fact here but as fellow Sisters players we can at least offer the guy some help in tweaking his list to get the most out of it.

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Jacobus
3Xcrusaders, 4 Deathcult, Rhino - extra armout

10 battle sisters - Melta/Melta/Combi-flamer/ Rhino
10 battle sisters - melta/melta/combi-flamer/ Rhino
10 battle sisters - Flamer/ H. Flamer/ Combi-melta/ Rhino

10 Dominions - Combi plasma/ 4 Melta/ Banner/ Rhino
10 Dominions - Combi plasma/ 4 Melta/ Banner/ Rhino
5 Seraphim - 2 twin-hand flamers/ plasma pistol

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Exorcist
5 Retributors, 4 H.Bolters, Banner, Immolator

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I for one understand the reason for "Kyrinov +extra crusaders" is to make the line of CC defense instead of a Deathstar. In the end though the FNP works better with crusader super line. Celestine is fine on her own. With scouting dominions in rhinos outflanking and celestine going in for contest I would say jy2 you have your work cut out for you. I think SoB will win this. As for the list besides jacobus the only thing I would change is I would turn 1 exorcist into a retibutor squad w/HB. Why? the d6 from exorcist can be unreliable so gives you reliable amount of ap1 shots and can take more hits vs high strength attacks because you can fill it with sister fodder.

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How are you playing the deathray?

does every model in the affected unit take a hit or just the models under the line?

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pretre wrote:
I'm really confused about the squads of 5 dominions with a Rhino though. If you're only going to take 5, take the Scouting TL-MM immo. If you're going to take a rhino, than take 4 specials.


I completely read over this, I agree. You want the scouting MM immolators.


Lastly, that's a LOT of BSS, even at 2k points. I would trade at least one of those out for more immos (grab some cheap celestians with TL-MM Immos and upgrade those Dominion rhinos to TL-MM immos).


Again I agree overall. I like 2x Melta on the Celestians, as well as, on the Dominions myself.

pretre wrote:
I agree that those are standard loadouts from the old book, but they need to be updated to the new book. I went to Melta/Multi for by BSS, double flamer for my doms and double melta for celestians. The list just changed a lot of roles from what we used to do.


How is the Melta/MM working on the standard squads? I have used that combo before with SM and I really hated it. Having to sit still to shoot the MM was a bummer for me and I always preferred to take Flamers for the SoB squds (even if it wastes their AoF but with 1 roll to try now who cares).

My issue with Flamers overall is I just do not think they kill enough. Even Twin Linked, 8 Flamer hits (a LOT of hits) accounts for 12 wounds and 4 dead MEQ. The remaining guys are just going to slaughter that squad in CC after, and if they are smart they will put most their attacks into their Immolator so they can finish off the Doms on your turn.

The s3 on the Seraphim flamers hurt them a lot. Even with the AoF 6 hits a Flamer is 24 hits. On a MEQ that is 12 wounds and 4 dead...which is not enough for weapons that cost ~20 points each.

At 2k I think I would be more inclined to take a second Battle Conclave using both Jacobus and Kyrinov than Celestine - she is good but her damage output at this point level is pretty weak.

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Just a few words on my opponents list. I believe he is still in the experimental phase and trying out new stuff. While he is a Witchhunter veteran, this is just his 2nd game with the new Battle Sisters.

In our last battle, he used Celestine and Jacobus, so he already knows how they work. Also, last game, I kept on killing his sisters by sweeping them in combat. So this time, he's trying out Kyrinov more for a defensive playstyle IMO. 10 fearless battle sisters will give him more staying power and hopefully tie up my units to prevent them from rampaging through his lines once I reach them.

He normally runs celestians as well (from his former immo-spam days). This game, he chose dominions I suppose for their deployment flexibility.

Retributors, IMO, does not fit his list of mobile firepower. The only time I would take such a static unit is if they are scoring and can sit on an
objective or if they have the range and flexibility to hurt both infantry and mech. Besides, sisters already have a lot of anti-infantry with all their bolters and flamers.

Seraphims took a big hit from previous edition to now. Losing Hit&Run, invuln's and stubborn makes them a unit that will just get run down against
better assault units (like my wraiths). IMO, running Celestine just by herself is fine. He did it last time against me and she was annoying as heck,
getting back up 2-3 times. You know deep down, she's actually a res-orb necron overlord in disguise, right?


sudojoe wrote:I'm curious as I haven't seen the model yet but how big is it? I.e. is it likely to get mishap?

Armor 11 all around isn't going to last long vs exorcists but I guess there's the cover saves at least.

Wierdly enough, every time I reserve my storm raven, It never comes in till turn 4-5 when things have already gone to pot and now a days I just run it straight down the enemy's throat holding interceptors that can keep going into the back row. I tend to just deploy it but keep it way in the back even when I go 2nd because terrible bad reserve rolls that I seem to have. That way when it's my turn at least it can go flat out and get the cover. Usually it's out of range of anything that can blow it up (cept IG that is).

As there is no official model yet, I'd suggest the size of a normal transport to use as a base model. But realistically? I think it's going to be the size of the DE razorwing on the large oval base. That's my guess as to its actual size.

Basically, you can look at the doom scythe as a suicide choice. Hopefully, you can get the alpha strike in and hit real hard, and then prepare to lose it next turn as you scare your opponent into applying every available resource on hand to try to take it out. Now hopefully the damage you do is worth more than the vehicle you are about to lose.

But I think it will work well in a wraithwing because the doom scythes are not actually the most dangerous units in such a list.


Zid wrote:I do, dunno if you saw my list, but its basically a Wraithwing concept. I think the addition of a single scythe at 2k would be good for facing gunline style armies, or just for general disruption. Anything to cause my opponent to split up and allow for the wraiths to gangbeat em!

Yeah, I saw. You should max out your wraith squads. They are IMO the single best unit in the codex. I've find that you really don't need 5 troop choices with all the threats you throw out there. I've decided to settle on just 4 troops at 2K for my standard lists.


extrenm(54) wrote:How are you playing the deathray?

does every model in the affected unit take a hit or just the models under the line?

That you can allocate them like normal shooting attacks. Basically, if the line passes over 3 models in opponents unit, then 3 guys would get hit, but he didn't necessarily have to place it on those 3 models.

In short, I went for the intepretation with the least .



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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/12/25 19:48:55



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jy2 wrote:Retributors, IMO, does not fit his list of mobile firepower. The only time I would take such a static unit is if they are scoring and can sit on an objective or if they have the range and flexibility to hurt both infantry and mech. Besides, sisters already have a lot of anti-infantry with all their bolters and flamers.

I disagree. None of the Sisters' Heavy Support choices are mobile. Sure the Exorcist can move 6" and fire but realistically they're going to form a fairly static firebase. Adding the Retributors won't really change that. Dawn of War doesn't really do them any favors, but with Night Fight you're probably not getting much turn 1 shooting anyway.

Also, under the new rules a Retributor squad that gets off Divine Guidance is more likely to penetrate AV11-13 than an Exorcist, so they're actually a cheap dual-threat unit, not just anti-infantry. On top of that S5 AP4 should have Necrons running for cover.

jy2 wrote:Seraphims took a big hit from previous edition to now. Losing Hit&Run, invuln's and stubborn makes them a unit that will just get run down against better assault units (like my wraiths).

You can pretty much replace "Seraphim" in that sentence with "Sisters of Battle". The whole army now gets run down against better assault units. It's all about picking your battles.

With the price cut and change in faith, the max size squad makes a lot of sense now. Seras can generate an enormous number of hits. If you assume 5 hits from the flamers and then the following assault, a squad of 10 Seras can wipe 10 Marines in a single turn. They've got some neat buffs too. Re-rolling faith tests is great, and re-rolling their 6++ makes it more like a 5++. They can also still Hit and Run it's just a 50/50 shot now.

A lot of people bag on Seras saying "Dominions do it better", but I'm not really convinced. A quad-flamer Dominion squad does have an edge on shooting, but they can't charge after the fact, which can be pretty handy. You also can't take away Seras mobility and they can lose 80% of the squad and still be a big time shooting threat.
   
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Well, not surprised at all how poorly things are going for the sisters.

One thing, Jy2

Dominons manage to immobilize my command barge after I've just moved flat-out. I should be wrecked, right? Wrong. Necron command barges have this little trick where they can transfer any results of Immobilization or Weapon Destroyed into 1W for their Overlord instead (without any saves of any kind, of course). So naturally, I put 1W on my Overlord to save the barge.


That has been pretty hotly contested in YMDC, RAI I agree it works, but a lot of people have taken the stance that RAW it doesn't.

EDIT: Here is the thread

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/412010.page

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/12/25 23:20:02


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Ouch, looks like a slaughter for the sisters. Neat trick with flat out and immobilized btw. I like it

I'm kind of surprised by the bunching up especially with the fast tanks that can line up alot of death rays or maybe you guys were testing what a standard deployment would suffer?

I'd assumed a more spread out deployment would minimize all the death ray impacts and besides, all the sisters are in tanks so mobility isn't too much of an issue as they can just jump out and shoot using sacrifical units to mow down the wraiths through turn 4-5 and prevent multi-assaults.

Also, after playing against mind shackle scarabs for several games now, I'm now deathly afraid of assaulting them with small MSU units and especially IC's cept crowe since I can just sit there and parry without a power weapon . Also taking alot more care now to apply the assaulting units and positioning, making sure to have my purifier squads go with 2 psycannons now and have the psycannons make b2b with the scarab guy.

Looking forward to see how the rest of this will go!

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sisters player looks pretty screwed at this point, he hasn't played a very good game in my opinion. I think it really game down to that deployment of his

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Amerikon wrote:
I disagree. None of the Sisters' Heavy Support choices are mobile. Sure the Exorcist can move 6" and fire but realistically they're going to form a fairly static firebase. Adding the Retributors won't really change that. Dawn of War doesn't really do them any favors, but with Night Fight you're probably not getting much turn 1 shooting anyway.

Also, under the new rules a Retributor squad that gets off Divine Guidance is more likely to penetrate AV11-13 than an Exorcist, so they're actually a cheap dual-threat unit, not just anti-infantry. On top of that S5 AP4 should have Necrons running for cover.

Exorcists are not mobile as in eldar/BA/DE mobile, but 6" is better than 0" any day of the week. I'll take it. Also, their high gun turrets means that they usually don't have LOS problems like static heavy weapon squads usually do. Moreover, they are a huge fire magnet that takes a lot of the "heat" off of the sisters transports. That in itself is golden.

That's not to say retributors aren't good. They are a respectable unit that I would consider using....just not in an all-mech sisters army. The only foot unit I would consider in such a list are the seraphims. Even though they've been nerfed, at least they've got the mobility to keep up with the rest of the army.

Disclaimer - For the newer players, this is just my preference. Don't take my word as "law" or the best way to run a sister's army. I am far from an experienced Sisters general.


Sasori wrote:Well, not surprised at all how poorly things are going for the sisters.

One thing, Jy2

Dominons manage to immobilize my command barge after I've just moved flat-out. I should be wrecked, right? Wrong. Necron command barges have this little trick where they can transfer any results of Immobilization or Weapon Destroyed into 1W for their Overlord instead (without any saves of any kind, of course). So naturally, I put 1W on my Overlord to save the barge.


That has been pretty hotly contested in YMDC, RAI I agree it works, but a lot of people have taken the stance that RAW it doesn't.

EDIT: Here is the thread

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/412010.page

I really don't see much of a controversy here. To me, it's a cause and effect issue. The cause is getting immobilized, the effect is getting wrecked. How did the skimmer get wrecked? It moved flat-out and immobilized itself. Deny the cause and there is no effect. Negate the Immobilized result, and there is no possibility of it being wrecked whether the wrecked result were to happen "immediately" or 10 years from now.

Anyways, that's my intepretation. And if my opponent had a different intepretation, then the only thing we can do is to dice off.


sudojoe wrote:Ouch, looks like a slaughter for the sisters. Neat trick with flat out and immobilized btw. I like it

I'm kind of surprised by the bunching up especially with the fast tanks that can line up alot of death rays or maybe you guys were testing what a standard deployment would suffer?

No, we weren't testing any type of special deployment. I think his deployment stems from the fact that 1) that's how he used to play his immo-spam mechanized witchhunters, 2) when facing the unfamiliar, his instincts were to play it how he normally played it and 3) he under-estimated the destructive capabilities of the doom scythes.

sudojoe wrote:I'd assumed a more spread out deployment would minimize all the death ray impacts and besides, all the sisters are in tanks so mobility isn't too much of an issue as they can just jump out and shoot using sacrifical units to mow down the wraiths through turn 4-5 and prevent multi-assaults.

Also, after playing against mind shackle scarabs for several games now, I'm now deathly afraid of assaulting them with small MSU units and especially IC's cept crowe since I can just sit there and parry without a power weapon . Also taking alot more care now to apply the assaulting units and positioning, making sure to have my purifier squads go with 2 psycannons now and have the psycannons make b2b with the scarab guy.

Looking forward to see how the rest of this will go!

I'm sure he will change his deployment tactics the next time he goes up against necrons with doom scythes. I think it is a learning experience to everyone who play against them for the very 1st time. Then they learn to re-adjust their tactics/deployment.

Mindshackle scarabs are definitely very good, but sometimes, you just have to do what you have to do. He's still got a 50% chance to ignore it and kill my D-lord without an invulnerable save.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/26 00:32:29



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Yea, I think going second he should have spread out more but it's easy to make costly mistakes when you haven't played an army much. I would suggest he had brought his exorsists away from the main group at least nd not all next to eachother. He may have been over concerned with the solar pulses though.

In regards to the CB moving flat out and ignoring the wreck. I think you played it right. For me it is simple math:
a-flat out

b-immobilized result

c-wrecked

So:
a + b = c

If you take out b as a factor then you can't get the wreck. Since the symbiotic repair says "ignore immobilized result" and the BRB says it needs to be immobilized to wreck I don't understand the argument.

But, as always everyone will have their own interpretations and a FAQ is a necessary part of 40k unfortunately. I hope they don't nerf this when it does come out.

Glad to see the scythes doing some hurt, thats one awesome money shot he lined up btw

   
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Holy lord that is a lot of destruction. That line up that was presented for the Death Rays could not have been better, I'm glad the Doom Scythes are doing some good. I find them too cool in theory to completely ignore....

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Yeah, in hindsight I should have placed my objective deployed diagonally across in the opposite corner, and leave the Dominons outflanking from reserves. It would forced jy2 to split up his forces. With the cryptek and Dawn of War, jy2 is guaranteed 2 turns of night fighting, which doesn't bode well for my Exorcists. I see search light upgrades becoming the new norm for vehicles that don't already come with them. Once again, Matt Ward alters the meta-game!

   
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SabrX wrote:Yeah, in hindsight I should have placed my objective deployed diagonally across in the opposite corner, and leave the Dominons outflanking from reserves. It would forced jy2 to split up his forces. With the cryptek and Dawn of War, jy2 is guaranteed 2 turns of night fighting, which doesn't bode well for my Exorcists. I see search light upgrades becoming the new norm for vehicles that don't already come with them. Once again, Matt Ward alters the meta-game!


Oh crap, please don't tempt me to start on Ward.... I have been good so far

Yea, it is tough to pick which is the better gamble, rolling for night fight or reserves. I don't think castling against a rush army ever works well unless you get lucky or play your way out of it utilizing your opponents mistakes.

In the future it would probably be best to make him have choices. That is the best way I find to beat blitz armies. Instead of letting them dictate the game with the choices they offer, counter offer and make him split up and go for your offense and defense rather then sitting everything by your objective. Your initial deployment really made his game straight forward.

Lets see if you fight your way out though

On side note I want to compliment Saberx on the army, looks amazing mate! You may concede the hard scores but you have him in the soft scores! Very clean paint job and one of the best sister schemes I've seen. Make sure to post some close ups at some point

   
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calypso2ts wrote:How is the Melta/MM working on the standard squads? I have used that combo before with SM and I really hated it. Having to sit still to shoot the MM was a bummer for me and I always preferred to take Flamers for the SoB squds (even if it wastes their AoF but with 1 roll to try now who cares).

So far, so good. When I need it, I sit still. It's that simple. No one fears sisters, so they close range and get a double tap to the face.

My issue with Flamers overall is I just do not think they kill enough. Even Twin Linked, 8 Flamer hits (a LOT of hits) accounts for 12 wounds and 4 dead MEQ. The remaining guys are just going to slaughter that squad in CC after, and if they are smart they will put most their attacks into their Immolator so they can finish off the Doms on your turn.

But Dominions are there to die. That's their job. If they're killing my doms they aren't killing my important stuff. I basically think of Dominions as a nice tax to purchase a TL-MM Scouting Immolator. Not quite, but they do a lot of damage and die right after. So far the flamers have been huge! They do more wounds on MEQ than the Melta do and then charge or not depending on what's around.

The s3 on the Seraphim flamers hurt them a lot. Even with the AoF 6 hits a Flamer is 24 hits. On a MEQ that is 12 wounds and 4 dead...which is not enough for weapons that cost ~20 points each.

I have ran seraphim once in the new list and was not impressed.

At 2k I think I would be more inclined to take a second Battle Conclave using both Jacobus and Kyrinov than Celestine - she is good but her damage output at this point level is pretty weak.

Celestine's greatest asset is not her damage output but her disruption output. She has a disproportionate footprint on the battlefield because people fear her or at least worry about her. And when she does well, she does reaaaaallly well. I'm keeping her in until 2500 when a second conclave is pretty much required.

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