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[Edit - June13, 2012]

Still running WWv6 - Still kicking ass with Anrakyr, despite the faq nerf, despite the great developments in WW building, this list is knocking 'em down on two coasts.
I've seen some great wraithwings out there in the last 6 months, and I'm really impressed that Jy2's MTO list (debuted in this thread) is considered a top list.
With 6e a couple weeks away, I thought I'd pay a visit here and look at the evolutions we all discussed before they're all turned upside down. Thanks again to everyone who contributed so much brainpower to this theoryhammer thread.

[Edit
Hey, anyone out there who has the free time or a regular gaming group who play casual games, please proxy up your own version of the wraith wing and throw down!
I'm sure we'd all appreciate your input on how the list performed for you!
]

Thought I'd get better criticism here than in the lists, because I'm really talking more theory than composition...

First, I haven't seen the Triarchs or the Wraiths getting much love in the lists or batreps - everyone's gimmick crazy, and I don't know if all those tricks are all that necessary.
Sure Stormy's Scarab Farm is a very impressive way to jump into competition, but I think it's going to be that nob-biker phenomenon, and in a few months a bunch of tomb spyders are going to be popping up on ebay, as s6 template weapons are going to be just a slight alteration finding their way into the scene.

The really impressive stuff in the codex, as far as I can tell seem to be the walkers, the wraiths, the very reasonably priced destroyer lords, and the insanely cheap annihilation barges. To this effect, I've cobbled together a simple list that I think has some teeth, but probably isn't uber competitive - I don't want to focus on the list as much as the idea of the list, lots of force reduction in a very aggressive, tough as nails army, with high AV, High toughness, some great assault/counter assault potential, and some very accurate shooting. At first glance, I'd expect to have a hard time with GK and Parking lots, but there's a lot of twin linked high strength fire coming out of this small force, and it's pretty mobile, which should allow assaults to take place at the necron player's discretion.

The Triarch's targeting ability is pretty much a death sentence for any foot lists out there - a twin linked broadside from a fully loaded ghost ark is a lot of armor saves; but 2 8-1 shots even out of melta range gives a nice chance of breaking transports open.
The Annihilation barges twin-linked destructors might not be able to reliably wreck vehicles, but they have a lot of chances to glance entire parking lots, or lay a very significant amount of wounds down on infantry.
The backbone of the force is 2 really hard jump infantry squads, with storm shield saves that can lay down a fairly impressive number of rending attacks, backed up by a preferred warscythe.

The obvious downside is the 24" effective range, and honestly, the list could really benefit from the inclusion of imotekh (and probably the nemessor as well), but I wanted to throw it out there as is to get some feedback first. Night fighting would REALLY help this build, but again, I want to hear some thoughts about the viability of this kind of army before playing around with crypteks or named hqs.

Junk's first wraithwing attempt - 1850
2 destroyer lords with mindshackles
2x10 warriors in arcs
2x6 wraiths (4xWhips)
2xStalkers
3xAnnihilation Barges

[Edit]
as of 12/16

Junk WW V6 - Fingers crossed.

Anrakyr in CCB W/ Solar Pulse Cryptek (300)
Destroyer Lord w/ Scarabs (145)
Lance Tek (35)
2x6 Wraiths (3 whips, 2 casters) 500
1 x 10 Scarabs (150)
1 x 10 Eternals (170)
2 x 5 Immortals (170)
2 x Scythes (200)
2 x Annihilation Barge 180

Both the Stalker and Wraiths are very good units. In particular the Wraiths. I don't think you need 4 whips for a squad of 6. With a good assault move 3 should suffice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I think the lack of popularity has a direct correlation to a lack of models.

My necron friend ran a unit of wraiths with the D. Lord against another friend with CSM. This squad tanked everything. His only gripe was he wished he had two squads, because they're so good. Two squads of them, one squad of scarabs, a couple spiders, one D. Lord and imhotek and that's the start of something all non-DS armies will fear. Can it be beaten? Of course-but it'll be an uphill battle for anyone except DE and other skimmer-based armies.

I proxied a necron army against my bros nids and the wraith/coils and destroyer lord mind shackle scarabs unit beasted everything they took on.

Wraiths are great, but until they release the models, I probably won't use them. ( not a huge proxy fan)

Yeah, the Wraith models are pretty pricey on ebay, I have a few from my oldcron army, but not nearly enough to run this list.

Reecius over at Frontline Gaming has a cool looking solution made using extra bits from the ghost ark for building wraiths, and recently posted a picture of a triarch stalker coversion:

Here's the Wraith: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2011/11/30/40k-modeling-cheap-and-fast-necron-wraith-and-scarab-conversions-tutorial/

And here's the Stalker:
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2011/11/19/necron-triarch-stalker-conversion/

And Here's the Stalker's Home, which features an alternate stalker:
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=127495

From the looks of it, a Defiler would make a slightly overlarge proxy, but not terribly wrong.

Unfortunately wraiths are selling for around $25-33 a piece on ebay; if GW releases them as just finecast copies of the old wraiths, were probably going to see them at $18-22; which still tacks a $200+ price tag on a wraithwing army.

The new wraiths come in the same box as the canoptek spiders.

You will be able to make 3 spiders or 3 wraiths.

The wraiths now look like big scarabs.

Weird, Really? Where'd you see that?

To OP, it is an interesting list. However, it does not have that much synergy. The primary argument for the stalkers is their targeting ability, but the weapons on the annihiliation barges are already TL, so the benefit is marginal. While the arks would benefit from the ability, in the end it is still just 15 shots at 24" if you don't move. To get to 30 shots, you need to be within 12", which is highly unhealthy for an open topped vehicle of AV11/13.

For me, the weakness in the list is the stalkers are not that great and synergetic, while the arks really should not be used as transports, but as warrior assembly yards (empty or full but behind a phalanx of 20 warriors).

If you want a wraithwing, why not drop the arcs, go minimal warriors, and squeeze in another wraith unit? 18 should work better than 12.

Regarding models, I plan to use hard wire, beads, and a warrior torso with wire talons to make an old-fashioned wraith on a bigger base. Another idea is to use the same for the whipping backbone, but on top put a big plastic spider from Fantasy sprues and add more wiring to make it look mechanical.

Regarding a stalker conversion, I intend to use a heavy droid from Star Wars - cheap, necron-looking, and to my eyes, much better looking that some big spider. Frankly, I really don't like the new spider-like aesthetic that GW has put in. It is way too organic for an army of bots. They should stop stealing ideas from The Matrix and such. And what is with the little command consoles for the necrons sitting as if in cubicles in some office? Really stupid. As if they would not have a cyberlink or VR of some sort. Why does everything have to look analog? The old Necrons had so much better aesthetic for me.

I'm guessing he didn't and read the speculation on Warseer based on the artwork in the book.

Yeah the artwork in the book shows them as scarab looking, but also in the necron rumor thread someone posted the wave 2 assortments and the spider box was a dual kit that could be used to make 3 spiders or 3 wraiths.

Necrontyr40k wrote:To OP, it is an interesting list. However, it does not have that much synergy. The primary argument for the stalkers is their targeting ability, but the weapons on the annihiliation barges are already TL, so the benefit is marginal. While the arks would benefit from the ability, in the end it is still just 15 shots at 24" if you don't move. To get to 30 shots, you need to be within 12", which is highly unhealthy for an open topped vehicle of AV11/13.

For me, the weakness in the list is the stalkers are not that great and synergetic, while the arks really should not be used as transports, but as warrior assembly yards (empty or full but behind a phalanx of 20 warriors).

If you want a wraithwing, why not drop the arcs, go minimal warriors, and squeeze in another wraith unit? 18 should work better than 12.

Regarding models, I plan to use hard wire, beads, and a warrior torso with wire talons to make an old-fashioned wraith on a bigger base. Another idea is to use the same for the whipping backbone, but on top put a big plastic spider from Fantasy sprues and add more wiring to make it look mechanical.

Regarding a stalker conversion, I intend to use a heavy droid from Star Wars - cheap, necron-looking, and to my eyes, much better looking that some big spider. Frankly, I really don't like the new spider-like aesthetic that GW has put in. It is way too organic for an army of bots. They should stop stealing ideas from The Matrix and such. And what is with the little command consoles for the necrons sitting as if in cubicles in some office? Really stupid. As if they would not have a cyberlink or VR of some sort. Why does everything have to look analog? The old Necrons had so much better aesthetic for me.

I was looking for something to bring to a January GT that was unexpected and out of the current meta; so the wraithwing seems like a nice dark horse.

RE: Triarchs - These to me seem like both an Anti-tank solution, thanks to their heavy2 multi-meltas, and an anti infantry solution thanks to Twin Linking the warriors. But I do agree they don't synergize that well with the barges.

Ghost Arks - As transports, moved in tandem, they're really about focused fire; 10 gauss shots from inside and 5 from the broadside: Two of these, twin linked, into a t4 squad will force around 13 saves. At Rapid fire range, thats 26 saves - enough to seriously mitigate the threat of being assaulted by the same squad; but not enough to garauntee immunity.

The 24" range of the army means a tight defensive formation, but moving forward very aggressively, with one barge on flank and one in the center as the first volley to wear down the closest threats; followed by triarchs, followed by warriors, and mopped up by wraiths, keeping the entire army tight with a ring of AV 13. on the flanks, vulnerable from the rear and from big blasts like Orbital Bombardments and Vindicators.

Long range shooting armies like Tau and SW are more of a threat than assault armies that have to penetrate the 24" death circle of the army, which is really tempting me to include Imotekh instead of the second Destroyer lord... but those damn destroyer lords are SO attractive point-wise. Still, because I definitely appreciate your input, lets take a look at the super wraith wing suggestion.

Pulling the stalkers out hurts AV, but the s6 Rending attacks from the +5 wraiths will have to make up for that. Imotekh effectively protects the 24" radius of the army with his forced nightfighting.
The loss of the ghost arks means 2x5 warriors are essentially out of the fight, and will contribute nothing but late game objectives as they walk out of reserve and find their way across the board.
The Immortals + Rezlord, however, can be a fairly active component, laying down 20 24" S5 shots and weathering return fire with a 4+ RP.
Losing a destroyer lord hurts the cost effectiveness of the army, and makes the wraiths a little softer without those warscythe wounds and mindshackle scarabs to factor into assaults, but the remaining 24 S6 rending attacks per squad still means an average of 5 unsaved wounds. The third (5x) wraith Squad + Destroyer lord is fairly complex and definitely a nice addition. Is it better than stalkers?

The Abyssal Deathmarks are a one shot assassin squad that can wipe out an entire unit of TEQs without difficulty, barring storm shields. Essentially a delivery method for an 8-1 template that wounds on a 2+ thanks to their Hunters from Hyperspace power or whatever its called, with 10 rapid firing sniper shots to finish off the squad... then they get assaulted and die. Still relatively cheap for a surgical strike, and a bonus if they live.

Stormy Wraithwing 1
Imotekh (225)
Destroyer Lord/Scarabs (145)
2x5 Warriors (135)
1x10 Tesla Immortals + Rezlord (240)
2x6 Wraiths (3 coils) 490
1x5 Wraiths (3 coils, 2 Casters) 215
5 deathmarks + Abyssal Cryptek 130
3 Barges (270)

Or Keeping it very Simple: 1845
Stormy Wraithwing V2:
Imotekh (225)
Cryptek w/Pulse (45)
Destroyer Lord + Scarabs (145)
1x20 Warriors w 1 Ark (375)
1x5 Warriors (65)
3x6 Wraiths (3 Coils/Squad) 720
3xA. Barges (270)

I prefer the V2 list.

Deathmarks seem to me a fragile gimmick. Yes, they can assassinate something, but will they recover more than their point cost on average? What units will you assassinate? Long fangs? About the same cost. Imperial guard? They don't have any particular unit that you can DS next to and wipe out and recover significantly more than the points before being shot to bits. One-for-one exchanges are not for me - I like things that kill more than they are worth. Mech will not care about the assassins that much, because the shooting is simultaneous, so even if you waste the transport with the S8 AP1, you won't get to the squishy meat inside until next turn, by which time you'll be dead.

In the V2 list, I will restructure the buy in the following way: 20 warriors with Ark and 5 warriors will become 15 warriors and 10 warriors in ark. Same cost. But now you have a fully loaded ark doing the ship of the line thing, while also boosting the numbers of the foot-slogging unit. If the ground unit gets hurt too badly, swap the two warrior squads - fresh disembarks, hurt embarks - then keep building up whichever you prefer. I really believe the arks are to be used one per two squads of warriors.

Other than that, V2 looks pretty good. You will have to maintain formation and allow only a fraction of the opponent army to enter the 24" bubble at a time. Think of it as a harvester - grab only that many wheat stalks at a time, but keep moving forward.

A version to think about, e.g. as V3, is drop Imo and get a phaeron OL with res orb, then spend the difference on upping the warrior slog squad to 20. The OL will turn the warrior sloggers relentless and RP on 4+. Frankly, Stormy can be a problem for the barges shooting (average roll is 21.5 inches after all), while the OL still gives you a court and thus the cryptek with the solar pulse. Since you will be saving 225-120=105 pts, you can split it for a second solar pulse cryptek and extra warriors. IMO 2 solar pulse crypteks is better than Imo unless you can roll a ton of 6's. One of the crypteks will join the sloggers, the other the riders, so it is all good.

Now V3 has some nice synergies:

Against mech, the relentless warriors get in range and pop light transports using the gauss rule, then the barges tesla the spilled contents. Whatever survives is jumped and minced by the wraiths. Then when it is time to retaliate, one of the crypteks pops a pulse making return fire half effective. Next turn, iterate. Also, any transports that get glanced to stun results are hit more easily by the wraiths, if I remember that weird sub-rule correctly, because stunned vehicles count as not moving, and thus autohit in CC.

Against foot armies, the warriors and barges unload on the front line to soften it enough before the wraiths move in.

Against really fast armies, e.g. DE, the gauss tech and tesla work nicely, and you can avoid being alpha-struck using the crypteks. Then the same idea works about gauss making the glanced vehicles easier to hit by the wraiths - since it happens sequentially, you will know which vehicle is ready for shredding.

Correction: with only one court, you cannot have two solar pulse crypteks. So the second cryptek can take a harp of dissonance. One solar pulse is probably enough anyway. By the second turn, you will be too close for effective night fighting.

While I like everything you just said; I am hesitant to give up Imotekh now that I've squeezed him into a functional list. The nightfight + Init Seize, even without the lightning are both perfectly suited towards this army; and if I was going to swap him out for another OL it would probably be the Nemesor, to get the USR tweaks and a bonus rezorb.

We could also drop 1 wraith from each squad to free up 105 points to add a RezLord and Pulse-Tek as Imotekhs court.

Now I don't think 1 royal court will allow for 2 pulses. We'd need 2 courts, at that means ditching the second destroyer lord; which I don't love doing.
[edited in response: I do like the harp idea, but is one solar pulse worth losing a Destroyer lord?]

Splitting the difference, Let's take a look at this - The Zahndrekh, with all those unnecessary H's in his name, allows for the glorious theft of Counter-attack, night vision, stealth, and furious charge from enemy units, while doling out top prizes like Stealth and hit and run to precious wraiths.

Not quite as good as Stormy, but attached to 20 Warriors with his rezorb, he'll likely earn his points. I hate taking him without his buddy, but eh, hows this?

Wraithwing V3 -

The Nemesor! (185)
Destroyer Lord + Scarabs (145)
Pulse-tek (55)
20 Warriors 270
09 Warriors 117
+Ghost Ark 115
2x5 + 1x6 Wraiths (3xcoils/squad) 680
3 Annihilation Barges 270


Regardless of the explicit list details, here's a wall of text.

1. Is Wraithwing a viable configuration?
2. Do Wraithwings need at least some Night-Fighting protection?
3. Are warriors preferable to immortals in a wraithwing configuration?
4. Are annihilation Barges enough fire support?

1. From a purely economic standpoint, the 2xDestroyer Lord + Shackles and 2x6 (3whip) Wraith Squad is a 335 point per squad unit of CC brutality - 15 wounds, 21 attacks (+7 on the charge), and 3++ saves with a jump infantry threat range, that always hits first and potentially negates the toughest member of the squad they assault. It seems like an awesome deal to me, and I wish I could run 3 destroyer lords to do it again. They're the one configuration in the codex that actually gives the necrons CC superiority against a lot of popular lists. I think Necrontyr40k might be right about a 3rd wraith unit as support, but also, a scarab tarpit or cheapo flayed unit might be good back up instead. Any variation of this configuration seems totally viable and reasonably cost effective. So I think that the core concept is sound.

2. Night-Fighting; better than stealth, better than invulnerable saves, better than candy being able to limit your opponent's firing range to inside your effective range is absolutely game changing. Now assuming that everyone who plays necrons rolls with some pulse-teks, it's a fair assumption that everyone in the compétitive scene will be rocking searchlights, blacksun filters, or whatever else they can mitigate the difference with; even if you're not using night fighting, chances are your opponent will have spent the points to counter it, it's never very much (sometimes as little as 1ppm). I'm undecided on this; as Gaining nightfighting will provide much needed protection for a Range 24 army, at the cost of a very efficient destroyer lord. The two options, as I see it, are Imotekh, who grants automatic nightfighting for at least 2 rounds with an added bonus of potential force reduction; or another overlord with a single solar pulse cryptek; which buys you 1 turn of advancement. Now the protection from long range fire beyond 24" guns is obviously a huge plus; realistically interfering with Razorspam, Long Fangs, Inquisition armies, and Tau. Night Fighting seems pretty attractive.

3. Warriors vs. Immortals - The warriors are attractive because of ghost ark and the almost space marine statline. But the Immortals, for 4PPM more get superior guns, and a 3+ armor save. 3x10 Immortals at 510 vs. 30 Warriors and a Ghost ark at 505 is a reasonable comparison; More rationally, 2x10 immortals plus an emergency 5 warriors at 405 seems like a perfectly functional troop selection - Immortals, however, like having RezOrbs; the best choice seems to be the Nemesor, as he has his own rezorb and can bring a Rezlord and a pulsetek with him. Tactically, the superior shooting of the immortals seems like a requirement when paired with the CC backbone of the wraithwing, but it pretty much garauntees that only one destroyer lord is hitting the field, because that royal court just became way more important. Also, if the wraithwing is saddled with foot slogging scoring units, it's going to need that night fighting.

4. The Annihilation barge stands out to me as the most cost effective vehicle in a codex of expensive vehicles; with 4 twin linked 24" S7 AP-- Tesla Arc shots it's going to wound a few times, and glance the crap out of transports, which seems like a good force reducer- but might not be killy enough. Unfortunately the Doomsday ark looks too expensive (as it should really be run in pairs, backed up by 2 triarchs to twin link those very important large blast markers), and the Doom Scythe, while really scary only works under the protection of night fighting - in order to be worth its price tag it needs to use that death ray twice, and it's such a fire magnet, and such a paper airplane, that it seems unlikely to live past round 1. The monolith seems like far too defensive of a choice for an aggro wraithwing, which just leaves the Spyders. Losing 1 of 3 wraith squads for scarab swarm and backing it up by 3 spyders seems like a half-assed use of everything, but is not without merit... the Scarabs can tarpit while the two remaining wraiths perform surgery, and we've seen them clear a parking lot thanks to Reecius. I just don't think they go together, but I'm open to the idea.








Automatically Appended Next Post:
Man, more questions keep popping up in my head -

1. What is a wraithwing most vulnerable to?

Of the top of my head, I'd say blood angels. FNP & TH/SS squads are terrifying for this list, and makes me want the Triarch Stalkers back for the Twin-linking.

Drop Pod armies, rare as they are, totally ruin my deployment stratagems, and demand splitting forces to deal with, which is anathema to a 24" army; I had the same problem with my PGK armies getting housed by Salamanders in Drop Pods.

Tyranids require ID, which necrons have a hard time dealing out without cryptek trickery. Although the Wraiths can pony up and purchase those awful transdimensional beamers which leads me to question 2.

2. Are Transdimensional Beamers or Particle Casters worth the investment?

Strength Tests are pretty hard to fail, and Beamers are the same price as one annihilation barge. My guess is that they suck because they're heavy 1, which means the wraiths' best feature is completely wasted. The Particle Casters however, only cost 5PPM and add an additional s6 shot to the wraiths - considering they don't have fleet, it seems a shame to deny them a shooting attack. 18 Particle casters is the same price as one annihilation barge, and seems like a comparatively good investment. Using a few particle casters can add complexity to the multi-wound squad also, allowing them a little extra protection from a small arms volley.

3. Crypteks - how many is too many, how many is enough?

If we're going to add a royal court to a wraith wing, I really think it should be to take advantage of their long range high strength shooting capabilities. Harp of Dissonance and a couple of Eldritch Lances at a minimum, right? Those tremorstaves are pretty impressive as well, great for making sure the unit you want to eat stays put. The problem is obviously point costs. Crypteks without trickery are manageable at 30-40 PPM... But the cuts have to come from somewhere, where, and how much?

I think V3 looks mature enough to warrant field testing.

I would be careful not to get carried away with tweaking. There are a lot of tricks in this codex, with a chain of synergies. But A works with B works with C works with D, does not mean A works with D or that an army of ABCD is a viable option.

My answer to the raised questions:

1) wraithwing is a viable idea. It was viable back when wraiths were taken in only squads of three and were significantly more fragile (dashofpaper list). Now they are better, get more toys, and come in larger squads.

2) I am not convinced wraiths need night fighting. Night fighting is for units that take a long time to get close if choppy, or have short shooting range if shooty. Wraiths are neither. They are fast (jump infantry), exceptionally manoverable (phase flight), and more resilient than before. They want to close in fast and start ripping stuff up. Likely, they will assault on the second turn, and they will spend the one turn in which they are vulnerable to shooting at a distance of 12 inches or so from the opponent. In such a situation, night fighting is of little use - the opponent needs to roll a 4+ on 2d6 to be in range. That is why I do not believe Stormy is of any use to the wraithwing other than potentially shaking some vehicles before they can fire, but hey, that is a lot of sixes to roll.

3) In my mind, warriors and immortals are essentially equivalent. It is a matter of personal preference if you like to be somewhat better but fewer, or a bit weaker but more numerous. Warriors do synergize with arks though, while the immortals have to slog it in a wraithwing list. If taking immortals, tesla carbines are better, which means likely fire the barges at transports and then carbine the contents spilling out. If you take warriors, you have to do the opposite - fire the gauss at the transports, then hit the contents with the barges. If there is no night-fighting, I will likely prefer the immortals because there are far fewer AP3 than AP4 in the game and because the tesla carbines are assault 24" weapons.

4) annihilation barges may not be enough fire support in other lists, but in this one they probably are.

Something to consider if you run everybody's favorite nemesor is to fill the ark with lance crypteks, one of which can have the solar pulse. The nemesor can give them Tank Hunters, which gives 5 S10 shots per turn. That is a good thing to unload on a star squad or AV14 vehicle. It also gives the opponent something else to shoot at than the wraiths. Better yet, the ark can move 6 and they can still fire as the lances are assault weapons, so the effective range on this thing is 42". And that is just a 125 pt unit (plus pulse and ark). The ark can still shoot its gauss and can spawn warriors. If it stuns itself in the movement phase, the crypteks can jump out and unload anyway, getting cover from the warriors.

5) wraith vulnerabilities

I would not worry about terminators if they deep-strike, because they cannot assault the same turn. The wraiths are way too nimble and fast for THSS terminators. They can only be a problem if they come out of SRG as LR is too slow. But the SRG cannot flat out and unload troops, so there is one turn in which it can be shot down.

Generally I do not believe in "let's match the wraiths with termies". The wraiths should never ever willingly be fighting termies. The termies need to die the way they are supposed to die - to gauss and tesla fire, or to lances if multi-wound. So, Wraiths are not vulnerable to termies, IMO.

6) IMO beamers are a stupid waste of points on wraiths. Pistols however make a lot of sense to me. They can glance transports in the shooting phase, making it easier for the wraiths to hit in CC. With a bit of luck, they can spill out the contents of the transports, so then the wraiths can assault that instead, as you are allowed to assault in that case. Provided points allow it, I'd take the pistols all the time.

7) Crypteks - one with solar pulse, maybe another with harp or tremor staff, or 5 with lances and a pulse.If you are worried about counter-charges, the tremor staff can help make it that they do not happen.

Why would you use the Nemsor to give Wraiths stealth? They have a 3++ invul. There is literally nothing stealth does for them, unless you have some odd +3 cover where you'd like to hide some wraiths.
I'd say wraiths are quite capable of taking on THSS termies, if they do not have FNP. The 3++ invul helps quite a bit.

Re: Stealth for my wraiths. I like having options.

Phenomenal advice; I've got to get my hands on a few more wraiths to make this happen in time for january.
As soon as I can get a proxy game, I'll get a batrep up.

I think I'm gonna settle around 15 wraiths with Casters, the nemesor and a pulse tek.

Just had a thought;
What about swapping out the Nemesor for Anrakyr, and trading in an Annihilation Barge for a CCB... Still keep the 1 Pulse-tek.

Anrakyr can sweep a squad, disembark, take over a vehicle, than assault it and destroy it, making him a pretty effective model who's effective range complements the wraithwings; The CCB still has its own tesla cannon, so I'm not losing that much firepower - I'm just really losing the Rezorb support for my 20 warriors.

junk wrote:Just had a thought;
What about swapping out the Nemesor for Anrakyr, and trading in an Annihilation Barge for a CCB... Still keep the 1 Pulse-tek.

Anrakyr can sweep a squad, disembark, take over a vehicle, than assault it and destroy it, making him a pretty effective model who's effective range complements the wraithwings; The CCB still has its own tesla cannon, so I'm not losing that much firepower - I'm just really losing the Rezorb support for my 20 warriors.

Maybe, but not a clear winner. The real killer about the barge is the tesla destructor (4 TL S7 tesla that average 5.33 HITS!), which you lose in converting to a command barge. Losing the rez orb for 20 models is significant as well - you lose one in six warriors that roll for RP. That will be 3 warriors per game probably, or 39 pts. On the upside, you get to do sweeping attacks and have more stuff ravage the enemy lines. It becomes a matter of preference if you like to do so by guns or by blades.

Wow, this is thread for just the two of us. I guess it doesn't matter that much, either way I'm committing to three barges, and I can model an overlord with a magnetic rezorb arm anyway.

What are your thoughts on the Phaeron ability by the way?
Also, why do you think GW likes to include so many ae words?

Immotek
Court: 2x crypteks, 1 with pulse, 1 with re-roll.
Destroyer lord, scythe and scarabs
2x6 wraiths, 3 with coils, 1 with pistol just for wound allocation.
3 ann barges.
Maybe 5 flayed ones, just for outflanking (because 20 S4 flanking attacks doesn't suck for 65 points)
Remaining points on immortals with telsas mounted in night scythes.

So you get night fighting, and can re-roll the dice to keep/end night fighting, and a pulse for either a round of daylight or another round of darkness.

Use speed and night fight to pick your fights. Hit a flank with ~7 telsa arcs, then mop up with wraiths. Immortals have telsas so should they get shot out of the sky, then can fire as they re-enter play at 24".


It's really mixing the max lightning list with the max wraith idea. I think they work better together than alone.

-Matt

D-Lord, Mindscabs - 145

O-Lord, Sythe, Mindscabs, Command Barge - 180

Pulsetek - 55

3x 5 Warriors, Night Sythes - 495

6x Wraiths, 2 whip coils, Beamer, Caster - 250

2x 5 Scarabs - 150

Doom Sythe - 175

Annihilation Barge -90 (Or 2nd Doom Sythe with -5 scarabs).

1485pts.

Edit: Forgot to cost in the O-lord mindscabs. Not as essential compared to the D-lord.

I contest that night scythes are unworthy & wraithwing (along with a need for pulses to compliment wraiths & general cron 24" shooting) requires footsloggers. A O-lord just does not do very much on foot, in a command barge support by 4-5 similar vehicles - Yum.

I like the Flayed ones in there as support for the wraiths.

Lets talk about immortals, because that could represent a big financial impact on the composition here, but first, lets get the practical stuff out of the way.
Ignoring the fact that there's no model for a night scythe, and I don't know what Tournaments are going to accept as a proxy.

Without impacting the list too greatly:
As it stands: For 505 Points, we get 30 warriors and a ghost ark.
Option 1: For 540 Points, we get 20 Immortals and 2 Scythes.
Option 2: For 510 Points, we get 30 immortals and No Scythes
Option 3: For 515 10 Immortals, 10 Warriors, Ghost Ark, Night Scythe

Now, assuming we stick Imotekh back in:

He has Phaeron which complements Gauss weaponry over Tesla, and suggests warriors rather than Immortals; he also lacks a rez orb, which means another 65 points for a Rezlord if we're running the big warrior block.

If we use Imotekh and 2 crypteks with 20 immortals and 2 rezlords, we probably can't afford the Scythes without losing the barges; but our Troops are WAY more resilient with 3+ Armor and 4+ WBB.

I don't think the Crypteks have a home now though; because realistically, I want to be within 24" of my opponent's army, and I only need 1-2 rounds of night fight. The Chronometron is cute, and might be worth the 40 points because it's so handy; the solar pulse at that point is a 55 point vanity; and if we have a solar pulse, then we don't really need Imotekh; except for his lightening gimmick- he ends up costing us an extra 100 points because he is more expensive than the nemesor, and doesn't have a rezorb.

Immortals pretty much demand RezOrbs or they're a risky investment over the cheaper warriors.

I'm really loathe to remove the 3rd squad of wraiths, because I think they're a phenomenal unit; and now that they have particle casters, I'm going to fight to keep them because they're a very cost effective upgrade. So lets consider the 15 wraiths with 10-15 particle casters and 9 whips sacrosanct.

If we look at it this way:

WraithWing Core: 835
1 Destroyer Lord with Mindshackle Scarabs
15 Wraiths with 9 Coils and 15 Casters

That gives us 1015 points for troops and fire support.

The cheapest fire support solution is the 3 barges for 270.

Leaving us with a very healthy 745 for scoring units and bonus features.

If we include 30 Immortals and no scythes, we have 235 points left over for a second HQ and Court - We need night fighting to get into position, so a cheap solution is Overlord and Pulse-Tek. To make the overlord useful, we give him a rezorb to bolster a squad of Immortals against return fire. Total cost: 180- with 45 points left over. If we upgrade him to the Nemesor, we lose nothing, and we're at 1850. If we upgrade to the Stormlord, we need to shave points to make room for that other stuff.

Now, The stormlord says, I work well will flayed ones, and so do your wraiths. First on the chopping block: 5 immortals. 85 Points buys us 5 flayed ones, and gives us 30 points towards that 40 point chronometron. Losing the other 5 immortals in the squad means we're at 2 scoring units, and demands we defend them better (rezorb). Okay, so 85 points - Rezlord = 20 + our bank of 30 = 2x10 foot slogging immortals, one with Imotekh, A rezlord, and a Chronometron. 10 points left.

If we lose a barge, we can afford 1 night scythe. It also has a tesla destructor on it, so no major loss of firepower there.

End Result

Imotekh
Chronometron
RezLord
Destroyer Lord
5x3 Wraiths
2x10 Immortals
1 Scythe
2 A Barges
5x Flayed ones

Better or Worse than V4?

Well, same number of scoring units / less shots but better range, gained mobility at the cost of transport durability, all and all - 3+ Save vs. Ghost Ark Reconstruction / eh, I can go either way on this one. I'd give the scoring edge to the warriors, but just barely.

More nightfighting, that's a plus, so is the random chance of lightning, so that's good too.

Same amount of Tesla Destructor Fire, though it's safe to assume the night scythe is going down a lot quicker than the barges; I think the difference in impact is negligible.

Same Wraithwing Core, so no loss there.

Bonus flayed ones.

Not bad, seems like a reasonable alternative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Razerous wrote:D-Lord, Mindscabs - 145

O-Lord, Sythe, Mindscabs, Command Barge - 180

Pulsetek - 55

3x 5 Warriors, Night Sythes - 495

6x Wraiths, 2 whip coils, Beamer, Caster - 250

2x 5 Scarabs - 150

Doom Sythe - 175

Annihilation Barge -90 (Or 2nd Doom Sythe with -5 scarabs).

1485pts.

Edit: Forgot to cost in the O-lord mindscabs. Not as essential compared to the D-lord.

I contest that night scythes are unworthy & wraithwing (along with a need for pulses to compliment wraiths & general cron 24" shooting) requires footsloggers. A O-lord just does not do very much on foot, in a command barge support by 4-5 similar vehicles - Yum.

I'm going to have to veto this on the grounds that in order to be wraithwing, you need a minimum of 10 wraiths. The entire point of this thread is to determine whether or not wraith-wing is a viable build. Taking out the wraiths makes this conversation jump over to the Army List forum.
I like the idea of the doom Scythe, but i think it's completely unreliable with its random weapon-line length, relatively low armor, high target priority, and high cost.
I like the CCB. Come back with more wraiths?

I've been thinking of swinging around a wraithwing army, but I can't find myself removing the second solar pulse for a destroyer lord. Seeing this has nudged me in that direction, but I'm still not sold. Two turns of night fight is really handy, and I can't use the stormlord since I need RezOrbs.

Since I won't have a chance to run this for a while (exams coming up), what are the uses of a second turn of night fighting for this list? Is the option for a second royal court and warscythe/scarabs OL worth changing out for a Destroyer Lord? So far in my games, Wraiths have been well capable of handling themselves against almost anything in CC without one.

I'd definitely advise casters in wraith unit. Being able to fire into a unit you're about to assault, or stun a vehicle is a huge boon for the cost.

The reasons why I'm so obsessed with the destroyer lord are.
1. He's insanely cost effective, at 125+20 Points, with T6, S7, 3 attacks, 2d6 vs Vehicles, and the very significant addition of mindshackle scarabs, he's one of the best bargains in the book.
2. He can hide in a unit of wraiths, protected by their 3++ and split off when necessary to crush heavy armor.

Now, that being said. I don't think he's Integral to the wraithwing, he's just an excellent complement.

I'm a huge fan of Warscythe Overlords in CCBs. They also work in this list because they can keep pace with the wraiths, and still join assaults if necessary. I love Anrakyr especially, because for 245 In a CCB, he's a serious threat to any army - most of all grey knights that are foolish enough to bring a stormraven with them.

A second solar pulse is a handy thing to have. The problem becomes the escalating point cost. Harbingers of destruction are actually the best cryptek to throw in a wraithwing because they provide not only the defense of Night Fighting, but also much needed long range high strength firepower. However, it doesn't hurt the list to Not have the second pulse, because 1 round should be enough to get to the 18-24" effective range of the army; and once you're there, night fighting won't matter, because you should be getting into CC with his biggest threats.

In Pitched battle, with a forward deployment, you'll never be more than 36" away from the unit you want to assault. In round 1, you move 12, flat out your skimmers, run your wraiths at least 1 inch. On your opponent's turn, you pop the pulse and brace yourself. On 2, you should be within 24" already, hopefully within 18".

In DoW, you walk in, and night fighting is already up. So again, max movement, with the added bonus that you can save your pulse for R2 and play a little looser.

As I've been obsessing over this concept, I've found myself leaning more and more towards CCB Scythelords. If points weren't an issue, I'd probably run the holy trinity - The Nemesor, his Varguard, and Anrakyr; two small royal courts of Harbingers of destruction, 30 immortals, each backed up by a resurrection orb, and 2 CCBs, One for each Warscythe. All around a core of 18 wraiths with particle casters (which just get better and better every time I think about them)

At 1850, I have to keep looking at things as - what do I cut and what must I keep?

Running it as conservatively as possible, at 1850, it's reasonable to stick 2 Overlords (mindshackle, warscythe) in CCBs for 195 each
with 2 Pulse Teks (110), 2 Rezlords (130)
To have our HQ block cost 630
Add our 15 Wraith block (9 whips, 15 casters) @ 690
2x10 Immortals for 340
And 2 Annihilation Barges (180)

The rezlords look like the weak link to me, and could easily be replaced by a Night Scythe or a 3rd Annihilation barge; or whatever else, like 2x5 Flayed ones, or just 3 more wraiths.

The list runs the same, but once the Scythelords sweep, they can either disembark and smash vehicles, Disembark and join the wraiths, or just flat out and get a cover save.

The Mindshackle scarabs are too good to leave behind; but can be balanced out by the Special Rules that the uniques bring to the table. Imotekh's initiative seize is the real prize for a wraith wing. The Nemesor's ability to steal USR's from your enemy is a second big bonus. But Anrakyr's combination of CCB, Grand Theft Tank, and Warscythe is a serious consideration. All three can take royal courts, but Imotekh doesn't really need one; balancing out his high cost.

I have my own version of the Wraithwing in the works using Lance-Teks and small units.

I'll say this; Large blocks of warriors are the suck. they are super vunerable to assault, which is exactly what a good player will try to do. Even if the Wraithjs get there, unless they get there before your units swept, its GG.

That being said, i recommend lots of smaller units of warriors. That way, if they get charged it won't matter so much.

All your points on the D-Lord are spot on; the two games I've used him hes been balls awesome. Immotekh not so much. I recommend just the Nemesor; making your Scarabs Str 4 is awesome, or having a str 8 D-Lord is sweet.

Well, if you run Immortals in Night Scythes, I'd take a Monolith. Otherwise the Immortals have to hoof around the board when their Scythe has been destroyed.

junk wrote:
What are your thoughts on the Phaeron ability by the way?

Obviously, it only makes sense if the phaeron will join a rapid fire squad. This means warriors, or immortals with blasters. But, immortals can switch to tesla for free, in which case the ability becomes a waste.

YMMV, and I am not completely convinced one way or the other, but I think if you want gauss, get lots of warriors, a phaeron, and a ghost ark. If you do not want gauss to glance vehicles, then take immortals with tesla and skip the phaeron and the ark. Both builds make their own sense. The question is, how do they fit within the particular list.

For a wraithwing, the primary concern is to figure out how to support the wraiths because they are the heart of the list. The three annihiliation barges make sense. The question is what else to take. In my mind, the routes are:

1. Night scythe spam - probably immortals with tesla, so they can move around without a phaeron, then scythes for their tesla destructors. It produces vehicle saturation, so now the opponent has a very ugly choice to make in firing priority because there are four things that hurt him at the same time (wraiths, scythes, barges, immortals) of which he really cannot ignore 3. That would be my preferred option. Note that the same S8+ weapons that normally would ID the wraiths now have to pop scythes and barges.

2. Phalanx - max warriors with orbed phaeron, ghost ark. The warriors move and fire gauss at 24", while the ark reassembles them, and fires arrays at 24". It is slower but has a scary amount of gauss firepower. However, not as much vehicle saturation, so the opponent may be able to hurt the wraiths a lot in the first turn. That is why I do not like it as much. Note night fight will not help here, because wraiths have to be close to assault. So, Stormy is not as useful here.

Also, why do you think GW likes to include so many ae words?

It is a British thing, Probably remnants of classical or catholic education, coupled with desire to sound learned. It is hilarious, especially when coupled with obvious plagiarism - come on, everybody can see necrons are supposed to be space undead/mummies, so egyptian theme (pyramids, arks), and so pharaoh becomes phaeron. Stupid. Critical lack of imagination.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

junk wrote:
As it stands: For 505 Points, we get 30 warriors and a ghost ark.
Option 1: For 540 Points, we get 20 Immortals and 2 Scythes.
Option 2: For 510 Points, we get 30 immortals and No Scythes
Option 3: For 515 10 Immortals, 10 Warriors, Ghost Ark, Night Scythe

O1 is best IMO. Scythes are a steal at 100 pts for a bunch of abilities and a tesla destructor. Immortals without transports will sacrifice a lot of strategic flexibility and make the list too predictable. Mixing the warriors and immortals is a bad idea IMO, because they require different units to synergize with. For example, arks do absolutely nothing for the immortals. So O3 is just horrible, while O2 is too restrictive and has less firepower than O1.

Do 10 immortals replace two tesla destructors? 10 immortals hit 3/6 of the time for 1 hit and 1/6 of the time for 3 hits. So on average we expect one hit per immortal (great rule of thumb to remember, btw). 2 tesla destructors hit 2x5.33=10.66 times. So, they get 1 more hit than the immortals and they have S7 vs S5 and they arc! No contest who is shootier. And wraiths need somebody shooty to support them.

Now, assuming we stick Imotekh back in:

We covered that. Stormy does not help a wraith list. Wraiths will spend one turn in front of the guns at less than 18 inches away. Night fight even without senses and searchlights is just good for 21.5 inches range on average. So, night fighting will make no difference to the wraiths in practical terms.

Immortals pretty much demand RezOrbs or they're a risky investment over the cheaper warriors.

I disagree. Immortals do not have the model count to make use of the orb reliably. The orb just means that 3 instead of 2 out of every 6 RP rolls gives you a model back. So, the difference is 1 in 6 rolls. For a squad of immortals, that means 1, maybe 2 models of difference per game. That means 17-34 points. But the orb is 25 and you have to buy a 35 pt lord. The math does not work. The orb is simply not as good as it used to be because RP rules have become better. I would not spend the money on orbed lord specifically for immortals. I'd rather buy more dakka, so that not as many immortals have to roll. Also, smaller squads means wipe out is more likely, we may not even get to roll.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is my wraithwing list NWW1:

Destroyer Lord 125
2x (10 immortals, all tesla, night scythe=270)
3x (6 wraiths, all pistols and coils = 300)
3x (annihilation barge =90)
total = 1835

Drop one pistol and add mindshackle scarabs for exactly 1850.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

Here is my wraithwing list NWW1:

Destroyer Lord 125
2x (10 immortals, all tesla, night scythe=270)
3x (6 wraiths, all pistols and coils = 300)
3x (annihilation barge =90)
total = 1835

Drop one pistol and add mindshackle scarabs for exactly 1850.

100% pure uncut pharmaceutical grade wraithwing, but you know what I'm going to say.
Just cut 1 wraith from each squad, there's enough meat in there to play a second destroyer lord and put scarabs on both.
But it feels right, there's a ton of tesla and assault.
So I guess, how do we get night scythes nto a tournament?

junk wrote:
Just cut 1 wraith from each squad, there's enough meat in there to play a second destroyer lord and put scarabs on both.

That is a viable alternative. The reason I prefer mine is because ... drum beat... I do not think the mindshackles are that great... (jumps in his CCB and zooms away before the rotten eggs can start flying).

Here is my reasoning. What is the purpose of the wraiths? To rend light vehicles and rip up GEQ and MEQ. Wraiths do not want to fight termies. Wraiths do not want to fight characters. Wraiths hate multi-wound models, because they cannot ID them (S6 only). So, the last thing they should be doing is fight a tough CC squad. The tough CC squads are generally slower than wraiths, and so generally avoidable.

So, why should I pay 40 pts for two lords' mindshackles? They should not be fighting CC specs alone, and joined with wraiths, they should still not be fighting them. So, if I take them and then do what I should be doing with wraiths, i.e. kill hapless guardsmen and smurfs, what does it matter if one of them fights on my side half the time?

I think they are great in other builds but unnecessary for wraithwing.

So I guess, how do we get night scythes nto a tournament?

I have been working on the issue. Check out the jedi star fighters on amazon dot com by Revell and others. They are about the right size and only ~10 bucks each.
These models are about 7 inches long and so about the right scale. I think they would look pretty cool, especially when I take out the jedi and stick in a warrior torso.

Frankly I don't like the look of the barges. So, I am planning on using the tri-droid fighter.

Alternatively, one can use a Star Wars Trade Federation capital ship if the right scale can be found. Another idea is a cylon raider from BattleStar Galactica.