Re: ShumaGorath's assertion in this thread

ShumaGorath wrote:He's also in the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade.

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:Also, see IG Armoured Company. Not really a book though. I also think the GK hysteria is uncalled for. If GK was as OP as everyone on the internet puts it out to be we'd probably have some different results in the competitive community.

Gray knights being half or more of the top tables in every major tourney since the book was released isn't good enough?

ShumaGorath wrote:

1 Rick Puig 19 23 23 65 Imperial Guard
2 Mark Billings 12 24 22 58 Grey Knights
4 Bill Hennessey 22 9 22 53 Dark Angels
3 Charles Peters 11 23 16 50 Grey Knights
5 Mattew Bennett 15 16 19 50 Grey Knights
3 Aaron Aleong 21 14 9 44 Grey Knights

In the ard boyz all four of those GK players were in the top six.

In the DaBoyz GT the grey knights scored consistently above curve in the actual gameplay section of the scoring criteria. They get nailed on soft scores as they're seen as a cheap army to play. If it were not a soft scored tourney they would have been the overall winners according to the results.

I can't see what the BFS players were playing on that link.

In the bugeater there was one GK player in the entire tourney.

So yeah.. Where's this GK domination?

Half of what you just posted was GK dominated. One of the other two was pre codex it seems and the other doesn't show armies played.

ShumaGorath wrote:

So at one 'AB location there was >50% GK on the top 6.

http://www.baldandscreaming.com/news/2011-ard-boyz-semi-finals-nationwide-results/

Umm. I hate PDFs and I'm not going to go through the effort to retype that, so I'll let this go. Still isn't 50% at the top tables that you were claiming.

Actually, it was. But this is a soft scored tourney so actual victories don't directly imply high placement.

Look at the top gold brackets. Mike played Guard, Ragnar played Chaos. That's 50% non-gk right there. Also, the bugeater proves my point.

You cherry picked four tourneys and were literally wrong on half of them. You're point is hardly "proven" if this is the best you had.

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ShumaGorath wrote:B&S's graph

You're going back to Prelims and Semis. Also, if you remember they were the majority of the armies so were disproportionately represented.

Actually, it was. But this is a soft scored tourney so actual victories don't directly imply high placement.

I scanned it and I don't buy your assumption, but whatever.

You cherry picked four tourneys and were literally wrong on half of them. You're point is hardly "proven" if this is the best you had.

Woah woah woah chief. Slow down with the negative implications. I picked 4 tournaments since April that I had ready links to from BoK. I tried doing a quick search of Tournament Discussions but didn't see a lot of results threads.

So far, you have provided 'Ard Boyz. Where's your other tournaments where GK's are sweeping the top tables?

Also, we're now on topic!

I'm at work, I'll do this if I have time later. I was not expecting this to mysteriously become it's own thread.

For feth's sake, are you guy's really doing this?

Find the numbers for tournaments just after Blood Angels, Space Wolves and IG each came out.

Then we'll talk.

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm at work, I'll do this if I have time later. I was not expecting this to mysteriously become it's own thread.

Better than continuing to drag the SoB FAQ thread into OT land.


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daedalus wrote:For feth's sake, are you guy's really doing this?

Find the numbers for tournaments just after Blood Angels, Space Wolves and IG each came out.

Then we'll talk.

That's my point largely. I'm just trying to keep this out of the other thread.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm at work, I'll do this if I have time later. I was not expecting this to mysteriously become it's own thread.

Better than continuing to drag the SoB FAQ thread into OT land.

That thread was in the ground the moment SoBs became it's focus.

I find it entertaining. Granted I also don't believe GK's are broken. I find they slot in nicely to 5th edition.

Hulksmash wrote:I find it entertaining. Granted I also don't believe GK's are broken. I find they slot in nicely to 5th edition.

Agreed. I have actually had little to no problem with GKs so far in 5th edition. Granted I only do one tournament a month, but I have lost to exactly one GK player and it was damn close (Amusingly enough, Celestine not getting back up lost me the game.) I think it was about 4 games with my SW at 2500 and 6-8 with Sisters and Orks at 1500-2000.

Meh, they're great, but not obviously the best.

They're new, which always boosts numbers. They are also a small investment of money to have a competitive army. That's pretty significant. That's also tied to a small number of models, obviously.

I can get the 30 models for a Grey Knight assembled and painted in no time compared to other armies, and it's much cheaper on the wallet.

So we have a competitive, cheap, timely, new army. It all adds up to a lot of them appearing.

DarknessEternal wrote: They are also a small investment of money to have a competitive army. That's pretty significant. That's also tied to a small number of models, obviously.

I can get the 30 models for a Grey Knight assembled and painted in no time compared to other armies, and it's much cheaper on the wallet.

I think this is really big part of their appeal and the appeal of Draigowing overall. 30 Infantry models are nothing when it comes to preparation.

DarknessEternal wrote:Meh, they're great, but not obviously the best.

They're new, which always boosts numbers. They are also a small investment of money to have a competitive army. That's pretty significant. That's also tied to a small number of models, obviously.

I can get the 30 models for a Grey Knight assembled and painted in no time compared to other armies, and it's much cheaper on the wallet.

Being new didn't immediately put Dark Eldar, Blood Andgels, or tyranids on top tables. It probably doesn't help that GKs are the primary foil to two out of the three of those armies though.

ShumaGorath wrote:Being new didn't immediately put Dark Eldar, Blood Andgels, or tyranids on top tables. It probably doesn't help that GKs are the primary foil to two out of the three of those armies though.

DE's point is that you couldn't field BA,DE or Tyranids by opening 3 or 4 boxes of GK Terms and assembling them.

pretre wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote: They are also a small investment of money to have a competitive army. That's pretty significant. That's also tied to a small number of models, obviously.

I can get the 30 models for a Grey Knight assembled and painted in no time compared to other armies, and it's much cheaper on the wallet.

I think this is really big part of their appeal and the appeal of Draigowing overall. 30 Infantry models are nothing when it comes to preparation.

I'll agree that draigowings popularity and low model count +ease of painting helps their numbers. Keep in mind though, you can do similarly costed death star builds with Orks BAs and SWs and those armies don't place well currently. Draigowing does. Draigowing also isn't the best GK build but still manages to do exceptionally well.


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pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Being new didn't immediately put Dark Eldar, Blood Andgels, or tyranids on top tables. It probably doesn't help that GKs are the primary foil to two out of the three of those armies though.

DE's point is that you couldn't field BA,DE or Tyranids by opening 3 or 4 boxes of GK Terms and assembling them.

It would be weird if you could open 4 boxes of GK terms and start a tyranid army .

ShumaGorath wrote:I'll agree that draigowings popularity helps their numbers. Keep in mind though, you can do similarly costed death star builds with Orks BAs and SWs and those armies don't place well currently. Draigowing wins.

You can do similar cost to Draigowing in Orks, BAs and SW?

Blackmoor's Draigowing at Nova was 12 Terms (like 150), 10 Strikes (like 60) and 3 Dreads (like 120) and that's assuming no conversions or cheap alternatives.

Also, who says that BA, Orks and SWs don't place?


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ShumaGorath wrote:It would be weird if you could open 4 boxes of GK terms and start a tyranid army .

I lol'd. That was good.

Basically $200 for a 2000+ point army is what I'm saying.

You can do similar cost to Draigowing in Orks, BAs and SW?

Nob bikers, honor guard drop, Loganwing.

Blackmoor's Draigowing at Nova was 12 Terms (like 150), 10 Strikes (like 60) and 3 Dreads (like 120) and that's assuming no conversions or cheap alternatives.

Also, who says that BA, Orks and SWs don't place?

It's not set in stone that they can't, but the armies I just mentioned don't with any regularity.

Basically $200 for a 2000+ point army is what I'm saying.

I really don't think thats as big a barrier as you make it seem. When IG was dominating top tables it had representation in tournies similar to what we're seeing with GKs. IG mech is not a cheap army to play.

ShumaGorath wrote:Nob bikers, honor guard drop, Loganwing.

Fair enough on Nob bikers. The other ones are a bit spendier, iirc.

Also, who says that BA, Orks and SWs don't place?

It's not set in stone that they can't, but the armies I just mentioned don't with any regularity.

Yeah... I'm gonna let this slide but I think it is just wrong. SW has continued to be a strong codex since it came out.

I really don't think thats as big a barrier as you make it seem. When IG was dominating top tables it had representation in tournies similar to what we're seeing with GKs. IG mech is not a cheap army to play.

The point isn't that it is a barrier that some armies are expensive. The point is that low price is an incentive.

Fair enough on Nob bikers. The other ones are a bit spendier, iirc.

Nob bikers is the most expensive of the ones we're talking about.

Yeah... I'm gonna let this slide but I think it is just wrong. SW has continued to be a strong codex since it came out.

Loganwing hasn't been the army that has been making them strong. Please stop misquoting me.

The point isn't that it is a barrier that some armies are expensive. The point is that low price is an incentive.

It's not a very good point whatever it is because you're supposing a cause and effect without supporting evidence and with evidence to the contrary.


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Anyway, I'm going to lunch. This thread is bad and you should all feel bad.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fair enough on Nob bikers. The other ones are a bit spendier, iirc.

Nob bikers is the most expensive of the ones we're talking about.

Really? 5xWarbikers Box, 2xNobs Box.

It's not a very good point whatever it is because you're supposing a cause and effect without evidence and with evidence to the contrary

Funny, that's what we were saying about your point.

Anyways, let's get back to your first point.

Show me where GK are dominating the Tournament Scene.


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ShumaGorath wrote:Anyway, I'm going to lunch. This thread is bad and you should all feel bad.

This thread is a direct result of your crazy assertion. You can only blame yourself.


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calypso2ts wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
In the DaBoyz GT the grey knights scored consistently above curve in the actual gameplay section of the scoring criteria. They get nailed on soft scores as they're seen as a cheap army to play. If it were not a soft scored tourney they would have been the overall winners according to the results.

Did you actually look at the scores for the 'soft scores' in this tournament and related them to GK? This statement is patently false. The top battle point armies were, actually, not GK. The top GK army scored 172 Battle Points, the next army scored 149. There was 1 GK army in the top 10 overall. In Battle Points the best GK player was 3rd in Battle Points. There was nothing dinstinctive about GK at Da Boyz and it had NOTHING to do with soft scores.

Anyways, let's get back to your first point.

Show me where GK are dominating the Tournament Scene.

http://www.baldandscreaming.com/army-lists/nova-open-invitational-winner-nick-nanavati-grey-knights/
http://www.baldandscreaming.com/news/battle-for-salvation-grand-tournament-2011-results/
http://www.baldandscreaming.com/news/2011-ard-boyz-semi-finals-nationwide-results/

BFS wrote:Battle for Salvation GT 2011 Results
click here for spreadsheet

The Winners

Renaissance Man – Mike Brandt (Imperial Guard)
Gold Bracket Champion – Neil Gilstrap (Grey Knights)
Silver Bracket Champion – Shaun Kemp (?)
Bronze Bracket Champion – Robert Roda (Dark Eldar)
Best Appearance – Chris Dubuque (Blood Angels)
Best Sportsman – Robert Roda (Dark Eldar)
Tournament Ace – Ryan Holiday (Grey Knights)
Tournament Ace – Michael Somerville (Imperial Guard)
Tournament Ace- Ragnar Arneson (Chaos Space Marines)

2 of 10. Wow. They really did dominate there. Heck 2 of 6 for Champion / Ace.


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http://www.baldandscreaming.com/army-lists/nova-open-invitational-winner-nick-nanavati-grey-knights/
Top table was SW vs GK. So 50% there from that link.

pretre wrote:

BFS wrote:Battle for Salvation GT 2011 Results
click here for spreadsheet

The Winners

Renaissance Man – Mike Brandt (Imperial Guard)
Gold Bracket Champion – Neil Gilstrap (Grey Knights)
Silver Bracket Champion – Shaun Kemp (?)
Bronze Bracket Champion – Robert Roda (Dark Eldar)
Best Appearance – Chris Dubuque (Blood Angels)
Best Sportsman – Robert Roda (Dark Eldar)
Tournament Ace – Ryan Holiday (Grey Knights)
Tournament Ace – Michael Somerville (Imperial Guard)
Tournament Ace- Ragnar Arneson (Chaos Space Marines)

2 of 10. Wow. They really did dominate there. Heck 2 of 6 for Champion / Ace.

Those are categories that include soft scoring.
The winner of the tourney was GKs. The first tourney ace was gray knights.

I didn't say that they dominated paint scoring or sportsmanship did I? Is that something I said? Is that in the codex? Does a grandmaster give +10 paint score?

No. This conversation is dumb. You clearly lack perspective with which to review these results. This is the third time you've failed to understand what you were reading when reviewing results. I'm done.

ShumaGorath wrote:No. This conversation is dumb. You clearly lack perspective with which to review these results. This is the third time you've failed to understand what you were reading when reviewing results. I'm done.

NO YOU! edit: Smiley here since this is a joke.

You said "Gray knights being half or more of the top tables in every major tourney since the book was released isn't good enough?"

I'm simply showing that they are not half or more of the top tables in most major tourneys.

But feel free to run off.

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Also, note that I said 2 of 6 for Champion / Ace. That would be 1/3, btw, of battle categories.

To be fair, and possibly to poke fun, GK didn't place in the 'Ard Boyz finals where I played, I think it was DE, Eldar and IG =).

But yeah, I do see a lot of GK players all over the place. I think it is for the following reasons (as have been touched on):

-Low model count, east to put together and paint
-Very forgiving and powerful unit choices
-Easy to play/win with as the tools in the codex are so strong and straight forward to use compared to more complex armies like Dark Eldar/Eldar and so on.

Basically, it is easier to win with GK than other armies I think.

I think the biggest factor to the Grey Knights success is the ability to have seriously broken troops and STR 8 TL Auto cannon Dreads.

Paladins and Terminators are nice but not really under priced power houses like the dreads and purifiers. Taking them costs a ton of points so it kind of balances out.

Purifiers on the other hand are 120 points for 5 guys in power armor with force weapons, stormbolters, 2 base attacks, their two psychic powers, fearless and whatever other abilities that help them against daemons and psychics.

To get them you only need what? A 150 point HQ choice?

I am not sure how everyone else reads the purifying flame ability but I have seen people playing it as if two squads assault one other unit then they both get their flame attacks and do 20 hits to 10 guys... Perhaps that is not how it should be played but even without it they are totally broken.

To add on to that 120 points the upgrades are as cheap as 2 points per halberd and 5 points for a Hammer!? 10 points for up to 4 heavy weapons in a 10 man squad? So their troops are basically heavy-elites. And all 6 slots of troops can be that? At least in orks its only one squad of Nobs per warboss...

Compare the cost to any other troops choice in any other codex. For the same point cost of a unit of Purifiers can you see the other codex's being near as broken?

Space marine Troops - 90 points, 5 guys in power armor, 4 have only 1 base attack, and all with only a boltgun and bolt pistol, 1 guy can be upgraded... to what.. at 120 points a 5 man space marine squad has one guy with a power weapon and plasma pistol? Or fist and ... 5 extra points? Oh yea.. that is fair...

Ork troops - Base cost 10 boyz 60 points, Nob with Klaw, Big Shoota, and Bosspole = 45, so at 105 we have 15 points left. Woo hoo 2 more boyz and 3 extra points!

Or you could have 6 base nobz...Dying to the force weapons...

Oh and yea.. the dreadnought is the same as the space marine except for a couple points more and then with a 5 point upgrade has incredibly better weapons.

mortetvie wrote: more complex armies like Dark Eldar/Eldar and so on.

Dark Eldar? Complex? That's laughable, take 6-9 venoms and 3 Ravagers and just start rolling to hit, that army plays itself. The only complex thing about playing Eldar is deciding what is the least of the terrible units to pair with Eldraad...

mortetvie wrote:Basically, it is easier to win with GK than other armies I think.

Yes, which is a pretty loose definition that essentially means OP.

GK and DE are both pretty similar armies bone headedly easy to play, set up, move up (maybe not even move up), and roll your buckets of egregious dice, the GK for psybolt amo and the DE for poison.

Between GK and DE 40k 5th isn't very diverse anymore, at least the space wolves had a variety of nasty builds. 2 armies that do it all, shoot a ton, have great vehicles, have great antitank, and have great melee as well. Why play anything else?

IMO Matt Ward is balancing out the codexs, might take a few years but what i hear about the TAU coming out it sounds like they will be OP too. just comes to how you play, GK are too new to have the "age old way" of beating them yet.

If you think GK are a 'forgiving' army to play then I suggest you try playing a double header where you play the same mission/deployment but swap armies with your opponent in the second game.

Perhaps surprisingly it generally turns out that GK aren't 'forgiving' or 'broken' once people have played a couple of such matches.

What seems to me to be most often the case is that people don't like the fact that they have to rethink their tactics (and possibly what makes a good all-comers list) when faced with GK.

I'm pretty confident the same bleating will be heard about Necrons in due course (and probably from GK players too).

Gk=Op? Is that why csm, orks, sw and ig are continually placing or winning more often? The numbers as mentioned are skewed due to the volume playing the new books. BUT sw, orkz, IG etc have all been out for quite awhile and still have a ton of players and placing high.

@Agustus:
***

mortetvie wrote: more complex armies like Dark Eldar/Eldar and so on.

Dark Eldar? Complex? That's laughable, take 6-9 venoms and 3 Ravagers and just start rolling to hit, that army plays itself. The only complex thing about playing Eldar is deciding what is the least of the terrible units to pair with Eldraad...

mortetvie wrote:Basically, it is easier to win with GK than other armies I think.

Yes, which is a pretty loose definition that essentially means OP.
***

I don't run Eldrad that often, though he is pretty nice. I usually run Wraithguard, some Fire Dragons, some Wraithlords and other mech elements and do fairly well. Anyway, to address what you said, DE are not GK nor are they as easy to win with as GK. That venom army (my friend plays it pretty well) does OK against some armies but it can get thrashed pretty easily against any decent shooting or anyone that can make a cover save or take that kind of shooting (there are some armies out there) from their tanks (he takes 3X4 blaster truborn, 5 blaster warriors in venoms-though he is liking wyches better-and 3 ravagers).

I kind of feel miffed in that you are knocking the skill it takes to play Eldar and Dark Eldar vs GK... I mean are you really trying to say the Eldar armies are on par with GK as far as cost effectiveness and "op-ness" and skill required to play? I've played against GK (and have not lost with my Eldar mind you) and AS GK (I have a thousand sons army counts as GK atm). GK are like easy mode compared to any Eldar equivalent.

@ Artemo, I do think GK are forgiving, especially coming from an Eldar player's background/perspective. When I play as GK, its point and click (for the most part), when I play as Eldar, it is like Sun Tzu art of war. I think knowing how to play as and against GK takes some time to learn but the learning curve is a lot easier than with some of the more difficult armies to win with. Case in point, my GK Draigo and friends list has a lot easier time with a lot of different armies vs my Eldar but ironically enough, my Eldar beat Draigo and friends pretty easily (I was surprised how wraithlords can lay the smackdown on Paladins lol...)

This is a silly thread. No army is an auto-win button unless you're playing against a robot. Time has passed and people have devised tactics to beat GK. Just as they devised tactics to beat SW, just as they devised tactics to beat IG, etc, etc.

Also, Complaining about purifiers when there are Grey hunters out there seems like a silly waste of time. You can take more than 2:1 grey hunters to purifiers when you factor in crowe. I'm sure all the SW players are like "woo hoo! I mean... uh... yeah, those purifiers are crazy OP!!!". And anyways what does complaining about them get done? Do you think GW is gonna come down from on high and ban something? When was the last time that happened... oh, right. Never.

TLR Work on beating lists, not bitching about them.

Dok wrote:This is a silly thread. ... TLR Work on beating lists, not bitching about them.

/slowclap

That was my point, so thanks!

There is no question that they are in the top three armies of the game and I would not take anyone who said otherwise seriously. But, really, they did not rack up the dominating string of generalship wins that the SW or even IG did in their first year of play.

The worst thing about them is that they kind of break the metagame for the sub par armies in various ways, mostly due to the Vindicare assasin and Cleansing Flame. Put them head to head against a competitive SW list spamming Grey Hunters and Long Wangs, and well those psyflemen die pretty damn fast. They are not exactly lighting it up against Guard, either. Honestly, delete cleansing flame and the Vindi Assasin, make henchmen units minimum 5 man, then price up the psy ammo upgrade and crusaders. Tada balanced book. Of course, SW and IG would still be OPed in various ways.

What I do find amusing is that the most vocal bitching I hear about GKs when I play them comes from bandwagoning Space Wolf Counts As players, who do not like altering their army to account for what GKs bring to the table. I went through this in Fantasy, with people who thought they were geniouses because they could ram six Brett Busses down people's throats and win every game suddenly getting beat because the metagame changed. Aside from losing, people hate adapting their armies more than anything.

Frothmog wrote:I think the biggest factor to the Grey Knights success is the ability to have seriously broken troops and STR 8 TL Auto cannon Dreads.

Paladins and Terminators are nice but not really under priced power houses like the dreads and purifiers. Taking them costs a ton of points so it kind of balances out.

Purifiers on the other hand are 120 points for 5 guys in power armor with force weapons, stormbolters, 2 base attacks, their two psychic powers, fearless and whatever other abilities that help them against daemons and psychics.

Yes... They're still a 3+ save. Die just like any other marines.

To get them you only need what? A 150 point HQ choice?

Who is really underwhelming and hard to use in comparison with their other choices. He's almost guaranteed to give up a kill point.

I am not sure how everyone else reads the purifying flame ability but I have seen people playing it as if two squads assault one other unit then they both get their flame attacks and do 20 hits to 10 guys... Perhaps that is not how it should be played but even without it they are totally broken.

To add on to that 120 points the upgrades are as cheap as 2 points per halberd and 5 points for a Hammer!? 10 points for up to 4 heavy weapons in a 10 man squad? So their troops are basically heavy-elites. And all 6 slots of troops can be that? At least in orks its only one squad of Nobs per warboss...

Your interpretation of the power is not quite the same as mine. I think you'd have to fully resolve one of the powers before you could cast the other. I really don't feel like hammers are that amazing. Seriously. GK are still very much so a shooty army. They just don't have the numbers to hold up in melee, especially when they go last. I think the Storm Shield part of the TH/SS combo is really the big deal, which is something they can't get for any point value. Also, note that you're comparing a late 4th edition codex to a late 5th edition codex.

Compare the cost to any other troops choice in any other codex. For the same point cost of a unit of Purifiers can you see the other codex's being near as broken?

Well, there's IG Vets with plasma in a chimera. That's pretty comparable, and could shoot the purifiers to pieces. Deathwing Termies are really strong right now. They're a bit more expensive than 5 Purifiers, but I bet they could probably handle 10 of them, including cyclone missile launcher shots.

Space marine Troops - 90 points, 5 guys in power armor, 4 have only 1 base attack, and all with only a boltgun and bolt pistol, 1 guy can be upgraded... to what.. at 120 points a 5 man space marine squad has one guy with a power weapon and plasma pistol? Or fist and ... 5 extra points? Oh yea.. that is fair...

I do not think you understand opportunity cost. Also, explain to me then how fair it is that fire dragons are only 10 points, while an evenly equipped IG vet would be 20? My belief has always been that if all the armies had the same capabilities for the same costs, it would be a boring game indeed.

Ork troops - Base cost 10 boyz 60 points, Nob with Klaw, Big Shoota, and Bosspole = 45, so at 105 we have 15 points left. Woo hoo 2 more boyz and 3 extra points!

Or you could have 6 base nobz...Dying to the force weapons...

Oh and yea.. the dreadnought is the same as the space marine except for a couple points more and then with a 5 point upgrade has incredibly better weapons.

GK Dreadnoughts are comparable to longfangs. I'd go into the reasons why, but if I type them out too much more, my posts might be construed as spam because of how repetitive I sound. Search for the last one of these threads from about two weeks ago if you wish to be enlightened, rather than just angry.

Phazael wrote:There is no question that they are in the top three armies of the game and I would not take anyone who said otherwise seriously. But, really, they did not rack up the dominating string of generalship wins that the SW or even IG did in their first year of play.

Agreed.

Long Wangs,

Not sure if intentional, but still hilarious.

Phazael wrote:The worst thing about them is that they kind of break the metagame for the sub par armies in various ways

I think you just hit the nail on the head right here. People are angry that the game changed with the introduction of a new army. Shooty Orks are now the way to go to avoid Purifier spam, Nids need to go to horde tactics rather than MC spam, Blood Angels actually need to consider for a moment before assaulting.

This is a 'good thing.'

The only thing I really dislike about GK is the fortitude on Dreads. The TL STR 8, I can deal with, but the Fortitude is just too much.


And Daedalus, Dark Eldar Massed Poison killed TMC, before GK could beat the Dead horse with Force weaponry. That being said, I still love my Trygons.

GK aren't OP. Neither are SW or IG. However, the factor that SW and GK have in common that gets them misidentified as OP so often is that both are comparatively easy to use thanks to their extreme flexibility. Compare these armies to an army like Eldar that relies on the interplay of specialist units in order to win and the difference becomes readily apparent. GK take this to the next level with the Fortitude ability allowing the army to recover easily from what could otherwise be very harsh shooting phases, making it harder for GK to be caught out by mistakes in the same way that other armies can.

To use an example from my own experience, I once played a tournament game against a mechanized Blood Angels player who fielded many Razorbacks. At one point, he had his Razorbacks squeezing through terrain in a column formation, and I concentrated my fire on the front Razorback, stunning it and forcing the other vehicles to use lengthy paths and move through difficult terrain to circumvent the block. In doing so, his forces were not only delayed in reaching me but the terrain immobilized other Razorbacks, hurting the army further. GK are much less vulnerable to this sort of tactic, which means they have less to lose from sloppy or imprecise movement.

Overall, I think Codex: GK is in line with the rest of the 5e Codices-- they're all at about the same level in the hands of a good player.

What you should be looking at are ratios. The ratio of number of people using that army in a particular tournament to the number appearing in say the top ten of that tournament.

That will demonstrate the armies hitting above their weight. At the moment i'm looking favourably on SW tbh.

Hulk just wrote a nice article about Codex Creep on his blog which is pretty applicable, especially considering Frothmog's post earlier.

http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2011/12/codex-creep-myth-and-legend-2-unit.html

Jesus Christo that was fast Petre I just posted that like 10 minutes ago even if I have been working on it since this morning.

Hulksmash wrote:Jesus Christo that was fast Petre I just posted that like 10 minutes ago even if I have been working on it since this morning.

Google Reader and tabbed browsing is your friend. Little (1) pops up and I go find out what all my stalkees are saying today.


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Also, I noticed that Shuma de-friended me. :(

Sasori wrote:The only thing I really dislike about GK is the fortitude on Dreads. The TL STR 8, I can deal with, but the Fortitude is just too much.


And Daedalus, Dark Eldar Massed Poison killed TMC, before GK could beat the Dead horse with Force weaponry. That being said, I still love my Trygons.

Cruddace broke the Nidzilla list with his ludicrously overpriced Harpies, Canifexes, and Hive Tyrants. The whole Tervigon Poop Factory craze was just a minor death spasm before DE came along and beat them with a shovel.

mortetvie wrote:I kind of feel miffed in that you are knocking the skill it takes to play Eldar and Dark Eldar vs GK...

Sorry, don't be miffed. Eldar != Dark Eldar. Getting something out of Eldar's overspecialized units is hard, and needs a plan, playing a field of Venoms that fire 12 - 24 poison shots a piece is easy.

mortetvie wrote:I mean are you really trying to say the Eldar armies are on par with GK as far as cost effectiveness and "op-ness" and skill required to play?

No, I think Eldar (just Eldar, not Dark Eldar) are completely out dated, underpowered and have to be fine tuned to be good at all. Strangely though, runes of Warding are great vs GKs.
Dark Eldar, however, completely different.

mortetvie wrote:I've played against GK (and have not lost with my Eldar mind you) and AS GK (I have a thousand sons army counts as GK atm). GK are like easy mode compared to any Eldar equivalent.

Yes, like easy mode compared to Eldar.

Hulksmash wrote:Jesus Christo that was fast Petre I just posted that like 10 minutes ago even if I have been working on it since this morning.

pretre wrote:Hulk just wrote a nice article about Codex Creep on his blog which is pretty applicable, especially considering Frothmog's post earlier.

http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2011/12/codex-creep-myth-and-legend-2-unit.html

It's very well stated, Hulk.

I've noticed a long running issue with the way people look at supposedly "OP" units is the same way they assume GW does playtesting: A vacuum.

Fetterkey wrote:Overall, I think Codex: GK is in line with the rest of the 5e Codices--...

I completely disagree, Grey Knights have no disadvantages, thats why it's a bad codex and OP. It's an army that reads and plays as if it was designed by juveniles with a "let's make everything awesome" mentality. Great in Melee, great at shooting, all power weapons, all move and fire, 24 inch plus ranges, great psychic offense great psychic defense, most resilient vehicles in the game, mobility and heavy armor, dreadnoughts, monstrous creatures, mega characters, specialist units, 'build your own' army changing characters, scoring unit army manipulation.

It's one thing to have an army with cool new powers, and another to make an army that just does everything, and well. It's creatively, thematically, and practically simple minded: just make it all do everything!


Furthermore it is filled with as much or more game breaking precedent than anything ever published:

Mindstrike missiles break the targeting rules
Scoring vehicles
Vehicles with psychic powers
Units with collective psychic powers
Egregious cover manipulation
Changing the stat lines of other models
Immunity to deep strike
Teleporting for movement
...

Playing vs Grey Knights is like playing a different game.

Also:

pretre wrote:

Long Wangs,

Not sure if intentional, but still hilarious.

as an Eldarplayer I have this to say:

so what, GK happened:



.

Just because GK happens the world didn't end. In most tournaments BA will be just as succesfull as they were before, and even though I play with a fething handicap (Eldar!), I have no problems in staying on the toptables and/or keeping up with the best players around.

Just fething deal with it and suck it up.

.

Srsly, 40k needs something like Warmachines page5

Augustus wrote:Furthermore it is filled with as much or more game breaking precedent than anything ever published:

You are so far off that it is hilarious. All but one were in other codexes.

Mindstrike missiles break the targeting rules

C:SW, Jaws

Scoring vehicles

C: DA, Ravenwing

Vehicles with psychic powers

C: BA, Librarian Dread

Units with collective psychic powers

C: IG, PBS

Egregious cover manipulation

Not sure what you're getting at... Stealth? Try every codex.

Changing the stat lines of other models

C: Tyranids (Lash Whips).

Immunity to deep strike

I'll give you this one.

Teleporting for movement

C: SM, Gate. Heck, 3rd Edition Necrons, Veil.

Sorry, I just can't let this one go by.

Augustus wrote:
Mindstrike missiles break the targeting rules

JoTWW, Blood Lance. JoTWW got faqed, but I am still not sure how Blood Lance works. This is not the place to have that conversation.

Scoring vehicles

I thought there was one other, but I agree, scoring Dreads is stupid.

Vehicles with psychic powers

Librarian Dreadnoughts?

Units with collective psychic powers

Sanctioned Psykers?

Egregious cover manipulation

Not sure what you mean here... we'll go with Tyrant Guard/Hive Tyrant as a counter though. Depending on what you meant, there might have been others.

Changing the stat lines of other models

Weaken Resolve, Lash Whip, Commander Dante, hell, depending on how loosely you define 'changing stat lines', we could include thunder hammers.

Immunity to deep strike

I assume you mean Warp Quake? Yes, it is definitely a stupid power. No arguments here.

Teleporting for movement
...

Okay... did you complain when bikes could first turboboost, or when fast skimmers became able to move flat out?

Playing vs Grey Knights is like playing a different game.

It's like playing a 5th edition game, apparently.

/highfive daedalus

Indeed. Skillful ninja job there sir.

daedalus wrote:
GK Dreadnoughts are comparable to longfangs. I'd go into the reasons why, but if I type them out too much more, my posts might be construed as spam because of how repetitive I sound. Search for the last one of these threads from about two weeks ago if you wish to be enlightened, rather than just angry.

I was trying to be more sarcastic than angry, it may not have come out well because before I could review my own post someone suggested going to lunch and I just clicked Submit quick to go.

I admit I have not played against Grey Knights much. I played one at the second round of 'Ard Boyz who I think could have had a better list.

He only had two of the auto cannon dreads, 6 full 10 man squads of purifiers with max psycannons, 5 halberds, combat squad-ed with Psybacks, Crowe, and a inquisitor with one of the nasty hit yourself grenades.

But playing him did point out how effective those two units are. I think one of the things to point out is that yes they are still just 3+ save marines, it isn't only about how easy they die but also how good they kill.

I would honestly not play more than 4 full 10 man squads. It would give room for more Dreads which I think would have given him more high str long range fire power.

Before I ever played anyone I was starting to build my own army and I just recently got a few games in with it. I have only played 3 games with them and won each one. First three games with a new army and I beat people who have been playing the armies they had for much longer.

One was close. Dice are always a factor too. I am not even playing the purifier list though. I do have two AC dreads but the rest of the army is Draigo, paladins, terminators and occasionally I drop a Termi squad for a Dread knight.

The way that Grey Knights messes with the force organization chart by putting what are normally heavy-elites in troops and letting you take walkers in heavy and elite is a great to be honest. I wish more codices were that flexible. Which may be where they are headed. Perhaps Orks will eventually let All troops be Nobz with Ghaz

pretre wrote:

Augustus wrote:Furthermore it is filled with as much or more game breaking precedent than anything ever published:

You are so far off that it is hilarious. All but one were in other codexes.

You're so defending the codex (and wrong too) it's hilarious, congrats I dub thee defender of the cheese. Allow me to take your rose colored glasses off with some additional details.

pretre wrote:

Mindstrike missiles break the targeting rules

C:SW, Jaws

NEW: For killing Psykers, it's a completely new problem, it also has absurd range, much worse than jaws, and different. Everyone knows JOTWW is broken, why would continuing THAT trend make a good rule? It doesn't.

pretre wrote:

Scoring vehicles

C: DA, Ravenwing

NEW: Scoring vehicles that you can define on the fly during a setup

pretre wrote:

Vehicles with psychic powers

C: BA, Librarian Dread

NEW ALL Vehicles with psychic powers

pretre wrote:

Units with collective psychic powers

C: IG, PBS

Sorry, right,... how about Whole armies of scoring troop Units with collective psychic powers

pretre wrote:

Egregious cover manipulation

Not sure what you're getting at... Stealth? Try every codex.

NEW: Shroud hides tanks. +1 cover for vehicles

pretre wrote:

Changing the stat lines of other models

C: Tyranids (Lash Whips).

Changing the Toughness stat lines of other models

pretre wrote:

Immunity to deep strike

I'll give you this one.

Yes you will, because even the biggest advocates can't explain that.

pretre wrote:

Teleporting for movement

C: SM, Gate. Heck, 3rd Edition Necrons, Veil.

NEW: Teleporting for movement turbo boosting jump packs and monstrous creatures.

and just for fun

Everything hunter: Tank Hunter but for... EVERYTHING (Psybolt amo)

Mindstrike missiles break the targeting rules

So deploy your IC psyker in such a way that the raven won't get decent los (or stick him in a vehicle).

Scoring vehicles

Actually scoring Dreadnoughts (but saying 'vehicles' makes it sound much worse doesn't it). So that means that maybe those dreadnoughts need taken out in 2/3 of games. but of course they weren't going to be a high priority target for you anyway, were they? And only if you have a GM, which the most popular GK builds don't.

Vehicles with psychic powers

With one psychic power. And admittedly a good one. Bit like having ubiquitous S8 weapons that make all AV13+ into AV12 wouldn't you say? Like Evil Space Fairies have?

Units with collective psychic powers

Yeah, disgusting. Bit like having 'Preferred Enemy - Everyone' (Templars) or near-universal Fleet (Evil Space Fairies) on assault units that also have the potential for stacking FNP and other special rules.

Egregious cover manipulation

If the GK have an expensive psyker, and not so egregious if the enemy have a hood or those silly rune thingies.

Changing the stat lines of other models

Not sure about what you mean by this but both Evil Space Fairies and the Silly Vampire Marines have characters who casn adjust the stat line of their own and/or enemy models.

Immunity to deep strike

Another exaggeration unless you are looking at armies with a lot of strike or interceptor squads (to which most of your other complaints wound not then apply). yes, if you play demons against a strike/interceptor army then you're not going to have a good time and I agree that's a bit poor really.

Teleporting for movement

which adds over well 50% to the basic cost of the unit for dreadknights and 30% for interceptors. That's quite a hefty premium for a one-shot ability that denies assaulting opportunity in the turn its performed.

Augustus wrote:You're so defending the codex (and wrong too) it's hilarious, congrats I dub thee defender of the cheese. Allow me to take your rose colored glasses off with some additional details.

I'm not defending the codex, I'm defending sanity. You're that far off.

NEW: For killing Psykers, it's a completely new problem, it also has absurd range, much worse than jaws, and different. Everyone knows JOTWW is broken, why would continuing THAT trend make a good rule? It doesn't.

Eversor assassins. 3rd edition.

NEW: Scoring vehicles that you can define on the fly during a setup

Moving the goalpost, I see. Okay, so what. Scoring vehicles are something we already had. IG has squad sizes they can define on the fly during setup. That's a pretty big deal for scoring, in fact I would say bigger than scoring vehicles.

NEW ALL Vehicles with psychic powers

Wrong. Not all their vehicles have psychic powers. Chimera. I think you meant 'lots'. So yawn.

Sorry, right,... how about Whole armies of scoring troop Units with collective psychic powers

Yawn, still wrong.

NEW: Shroud hides tanks. +1 cover for vehicles

4+ cover for all vehicles. C: Orks.

Changing the Toughness stat lines of other models

Zogwort. /double Yawn.

NEW: Teleporting for movement turbo boosting jump packs and monstrous creatures.

It's not turbo-boosting. It is a 30 inch move. Geeze. Get your complaints right and stop moving the goal posts. Yawn.

Everything hunter: Tank Hunter but for... EVERYTHING (Psybolt amo)

So weapons with bigger strength? For more points? Oh noes. I'll give you +1 Strength.

So so far, you've got Psybolt and Warp Quake. 2 new mechanics.

Augustus, I see what you wrote, but all I actually get from the message is "I am unhappy that the each codex released has anything in it beyond the same stat lines, weapon profiles, and USRs that the previous one had."

Hommunculi have pain tokens you can distribute during setup, right? It's not scoring, I know, but it's similar.

Inquisitorial Chimera don't have Fortitude.

What does the fact that they're scoring have to do with the fact that they have collective psychic powers? I mean, I can specify complaints, and then continue to narrow the constraints of what I'm complaining about until it becomes valid set of constraints, but then the complaint loses its impact.

Concerning Shrouding, see KFF.

You didn't mention Toughness before hand. Again, does it matter that there's been no precedent for THAT SPECIFIC STATISTIC? Did it make you mad that they created a unit called the "Strike Squad", simply because there was no precedent for a unit with that name existing?

I don't really know what else to say at this point. I mean, if you don't want the game to change, which it really seems like is the underlying problem here, then go play 4th edition. Pretend none of the 5th edition stuff ever came out. You'll probably be happier, and I'm sure there are quite a few people who would be up for that.

OMG Daedalus, Did you hear that Tyranids have a model that make more models???? That has never been done before!!!!

So you're mad because a new codex has stuff that other codexes don't have?

Old Necron Tomb Spiders. :p

Still. I have to partially agree with Augustus. IG are strong. SW are strong. GK are just stupid. Like fanfic, over the top stupid. That's what bothers me (and I'm sure a lot of other people too).

Ozymandias wrote: IG are strong. SW are strong. GK are just stupid.

Results say otherwise.

Specifically they say all 3 are in the same ballpark.

Yeah, I guess they are. Oh well.

pretre wrote:OMG Daedalus, Did you hear that Tyranids have a model that make more models???? That has never been done before!!!!

Egad! You offered me such a start my monocle nearly popped off in utter shock! T'was merely through sheer providence I was able to maintain control upon it.

The topic of this is Grey Knights are the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade.

I think by Augustus pointing out all the things that they can do and then others following up with basically - oh yea? well this army has this one thing that is like one of those, and this army has this one thing that is like one of the other things you pointed out - kind of makes the point of this topic true given that Grey Knights don't have just one or two of those things.... they have all of them... no other codex has all of them.

After seeing the Necron codex come out I was expecting the trend of Codex creep to continue but I don't see it. Necrons are far better than they were, and got some cool stuff, but they did not get all the cool stuff like Grey Knights did.

Sure, they don't get Waaagh!, Mob Rule, the necron resurrection protocol thingy, fleet on everyone, Calgar's we only fail morale when we want to rule, or whatever special rule some other army gets, but I think it is fair to say the combination of what rules they do get is > those that other codices get.

Ozymandias wrote:Old Necron Tomb Spiders. :p

Lol. Nice.

GK are just stupid. Like fanfic, over the top stupid. That's what bothers me (and I'm sure a lot of other people too).

Okay, so we're back to the beginning of the thread.

Show us where GK are beating everyone handily at tournaments and maybe we'll take you seriously. So far we have seen that they are competing with everyone else but haven't seen any of this OMG BORKEN that everyone seems to indicate should be occuring.

The difference is that you need half a brain to win with IG and SW. A friend of mine made a GK list and took second at a tournament never having played the list before then. That's my point. The GK codex reads like it was designed by a 12 year old who just wanted all the best toys in one list. There are things in there that should never have made it through playtesting.

Frothmog wrote: Grey Knights don't have just one or two of those things.... they have all of them... no other codex has all of them.

I'm going to let you in on a secret, Frothmog.

No other codex has all the stuff of another codex. SHOCKING

We could make a list from every codex and guarantee there's going to be a big list of stuff that that codex gets to do and no other codex will have that exact same list. OH NOES

Does this mean they are all the borkenz?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ozymandias wrote: A friend of mine made a GK list and took second at a tournament never having played the list before then.

A friend of mind just made a sisters list and took Best General at a tournament never having played the list before then.

Seriously.

http://www.ordofanaticus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=125505#p125505

OMG, Sisters are broken now!

pretre wrote:

Frothmog wrote: Grey Knights don't have just one or two of those things.... they have all of them... no other codex has all of them.

I'm going to let you in on a secret, Frothmog.

No other codex has all the stuff of another codex. SHOCKING

We could make a list from every codex and guarantee there's going to be a big list of stuff that that codex gets to do and no other codex will have that exact same list. OH NOES

Does this mean they are all the borkenz?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ozymandias wrote: A friend of mine made a GK list and took second at a tournament never having played the list before then.

A friend of mind just made a sisters list and took Best General at a tournament never having played the list before then.

Seriously.

http://www.ordofanaticus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=125505#p125505

OMG, Sisters are broken now!

When I said that they had all of them I was referring to the comparisons you said that other armies had. You were posting things that other armies had that matched (although Zogwort's ability to possibly change the stats of one guy per turn and only ICs is hardly as awesome as Rad grenades ability to always lower the toughness of an entire squad).

So in that case, yes they have all the ones you yourself said were similar to the ones you grabbed from several codices in an attempt to say other armies have those too.

I then later in my post pointed out that I know they do not have all of them, but that I believe they have a greater number of the better ones than any other codex.

Perhaps reading all of a post would help you understand other peoples point of view. I should have put this at the beginning of this post too...

Frothmog wrote:When I said that they had all of them I was referring to the comparisons you said that other armies had. You were posting things that other armies had that matched (although Zogwort's ability to possibly change the stats of one guy per turn and only ICs is hardly as awesome as Rad grenades ability to always lower the toughness of an entire squad).

Oh, I got it. Hence my reply to what you posted.

So in that case, yes they have all the ones you yourself said were similar to the ones you grabbed from several codices in an attempt to say other armies have those too.

Oh, I got it. Hence my reply to what you posted.

I then later in my post pointed out that I know they do not have all of them, but that I believe they have a greater number of the better ones than any other codex.

Oh, I got it. Hence my reply to what you posted.

Perhaps reading all of a post would help you understand other peoples point of view. I should have put this at the beginning of this post too...

Oh, I got it. Hence my reply to what you posted.

Go back and read what I posted. Maybe out loud. Wait, I'll summarize.

We could do the same thing that he did with ANY codex. Every codex has unique things that no other codex has. A lot of them. I bet we could come up with TONS of things, just like he did. And there would be no duplication of the entire list, just like his list.

So yeah... That same thing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oops, my quotey thing looks to be broken.

pretre wrote:

Frothmog wrote:When I said that they had all of them I was referring to the comparisons you said that other armies had. You were posting things that other armies had that matched (although Zogwort's ability to possibly change the stats of one guy per turn and only ICs is hardly as awesome as Rad grenades ability to always lower the toughness of an entire squad).

Oh, I got it. Hence my reply to what you posted.

So in that case, yes they have all the ones you yourself said were similar to the ones you grabbed from several codices in an attempt to say other armies have those too.

Oh, I got it. Hence my reply to what you posted.

I then later in my post pointed out that I know they do not have all of them, but that I believe they have a greater number of the better ones than any other codex.

Oh, I got it. Hence my reply to what you posted.

Perhaps reading all of a post would help you understand other peoples point of view. I should have put this at the beginning of this post too...

Oh, I got it. Hence my reply to what you posted.

Go back and read what I posted. Maybe out loud. Wait, I'll summarize.

We could do the same thing that he did with ANY codex. Every codex has unique things that no other codex has. A lot of them. I bet we could come up with TONS of things, just like he did. And there would be no duplication of the entire list, just like his list.

So yeah... That same thing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oops, my quotey thing looks to be broken.

Except that any list of rules you collect from any codex is not going to have near the number of broken abilities that the Grey Knight codex has.

Sure there may be different, or possibly a greater number of special rules but they won't be as effectively broken in game play when combined with other parts of the army.

I would agree that many of the things in his list are not game breaking, but there are a greater number of powerful abilities in the Grey Knight codex that work well enough together that make the Grey knights an easy to win army.

I think the best way to put it is that Grey Knights have the best collection of good stuff without having to take the parts that are generally weaknesses in other codices.

They tend to have a greater number of units that can take advantage of the good abilities too.

Frothmog wrote:...pointing out all the things that they can do and then others following up with basically - oh yea? well this army has this one thing that is like one of those, and this army has this one thing that is like one of the other things you pointed out - kind of makes the point of this topic true given that Grey Knights don't have just one or two of those things.... they have all of them... no other codex has all of them...

More elegantly stated than I did, but yes, precisely.

pretre wrote:
We could do the same thing that he did with ANY codex. Every codex has unique things that no other codex has. A lot of them. I bet we could come up with TONS of things, just like

For example, Eldar have substantially more special rules than most codexes. It doesn't stop them from being garbage water.

Grey Knights > Dark Eldar > Tyranids > Imperial Guard > Necrons > Chaos Demons > Space Wolves > Blood Angels > Chaos Space Marines > Tau > Grey Knights...

It's Rock Paper etc.. folks.

When addressing the meta, don't play something that sucks against what 50% of the enemy is bringing.... and always assume your enemy is a marine, and you will ever only be wrong half the time.

Prodigalson wrote:
When addressing the meta, don't play something that sucks against what 50% of the enemy is bringing.... and always assume your enemy is a marine, and you will ever only be wrong half the time.]

Eh, the only problem there will be what kind of Marine you're playing - the kind that likes to stay back and shoot (Blue and Green), the ones that can stand back and then assault (Silver and Grey), or the ones that'll want to get right stuck in (Black and Red).

Did I miss any colors?

Ozymandias wrote:The difference is that you need half a brain to win with IG and SW. A friend of mine made a GK list and took second at a tournament never having played the list before then. That's my point. The GK codex reads like it was designed by a 12 year old who just wanted all the best toys in one list. There are things in there that should never have made it through playtesting.

LOL Really? How much brain power does it take to split fire 18 missile launchers a turn and rhino rush a bunch of grey hunters at someone? How hard is it to bubble wrap three manticores in a chimera parking lot? I mean, yeah we get it that you are butthurt about a third power army being introduced into the metagame, but there is nothing more mindlessly easy than IG and SW Netlists. GK actually have to leave their deployment zone to win.

I said that IG and SW need half a brain to win (reading comprehension is your friend). GK needs no brain.

Guess we should just complain to GW and make them remove the book from existence, right? Because there's totally something we can do about it.

Get over yourselves. If you hate GKs so much, don't play them. Complaining about them on the internet is like screaming at a brick wall.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Guess we should just complain to GW and make them remove the book from existence, right? Because there's totally something we can do about it.

Get over yourselves. If you hate GKs so much, don't play them. Complaining about them on the internet is like screaming at a brick wall.

Im undecided, though tend towards GK's having too many good rules. However the comment that you can simply ignore them isn't possible in a tournament situation...

I'm starting to get sick of all this OP crap. no army is over powered. all that happens is that when a new dex comes along people gack themselves as they have to think up a new tactic to beat an old army.

"oh no, now GK's have STR8 autocannons and I cant just sit back and fire lasbacks at them. they must be broken herp derp"

"oh no, necrons have a harp that can blow up a tank each turn, whats my all mek army going to do now?!? they must be broken"

you see where this is going.... -_-'

lazarian wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Guess we should just complain to GW and make them remove the book from existence, right? Because there's totally something we can do about it.

Get over yourselves. If you hate GKs so much, don't play them. Complaining about them on the internet is like screaming at a brick wall.

Im undecided, though tend towards GK's having too many good rules. However the comment that you can simply ignore them isn't possible in a tournament situation...

That's true. I guess in a tournament situation you can just suck up your hatred and play your hardest. If you win, great! If you lose... well it's GK

Ozymandias wrote:I said that IG and SW need half a brain to win (reading comprehension is your friend). GK needs no brain.

I have a feeling he understood exactly what you meant. Half a brain, no brain, whatever fraction of brainy organ, you apparently need some to play Space Wolves, whereas you can have a head as empty as a coconut and still face-roll games with Grey Knights.

Semantics, because you can't defend your point any other way, isn't that a surprise?

Aside, no army in 5th is over-powered. I'm sure you could make a compelling case as to how good the Grey Knights are, with all their powerful units and delicious special rules, but I always prefer balanced essays to persuasive ones.

How about their weaknesses? They die like every other marine army, and providing someone isn't spamming henchmen ( and thus taking away any sort of advantage given by playing psychic space marines ) the model count is always going to be low.

Why? Because points, that's why. All Grey Knight units are pretty expensive for what they do, even before you plonk them with half a dozen tasty toppings.

So yeah, you and your little hater gang are wrong.

iproxtaco wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:I said that IG and SW need half a brain to win (reading comprehension is your friend). GK needs no brain.

I have a feeling he understood exactly what you meant. Half a brain, no brain, whatever fraction of brainy organ, you apparently need some to play Space Wolves, whereas you can have a head as empty as a coconut and still face-roll games with Grey Knights.

Semantics, because you can't defend your point any other way, isn't that a surprise?

Half a brain is decidedly more than no brain at all I would think. In the land of the empty headed folks, the man with half a brain is king as the saying goes. So it seems to me that they are different and not merely semantics.

there are a few things that i ( as a GK player) find a bit op... but not overly so... oin that note,, i doint find them vary cheep to play at all.. of corse i dont have one gk in my gk army..lol , never the less, new codex= new army intrest=higher raitings due to a majority of intrest. look at the new cron codex, just as "op"

Dok wrote:This is a silly thread. No army is an auto-win button unless you're playing against a robot. Time has passed and people have devised tactics to beat GK. Just as they devised tactics to beat SW, just as they devised tactics to beat IG, etc, etc.

Also, Complaining about purifiers when there are Grey hunters out there seems like a silly waste of time. You can take more than 2:1 grey hunters to purifiers when you factor in crowe. I'm sure all the SW players are like "woo hoo! I mean... uh... yeah, those purifiers are crazy OP!!!". And anyways what does complaining about them get done? Do you think GW is gonna come down from on high and ban something? When was the last time that happened... oh, right. Never.

TLR Work on beating lists, not bitching about them.

I'm real sure those space wolves are going to do well when a librarian might of titan+hammerhands a unit of DCAs and they cause (on average) 25 power weapon wounds at initiative six to your gray hunters while being less expensive. I'm sure you'll work all the way through beating the assaulting purifiers which kill gray hunters at a rate of one per three attacks. Gray hunters kill purifiers at a rate of one per twelve. Purifiers do not cost four times what gray hunters do and a squad of 10 purifiers vs a squad of 10 gray hunters in an even fight will result in 6 dead GHs and .66 dead purifiers when you factor in I6 and the fact that kills deny attacks. That's not even counting cleansing flame or the storm bolters.

TLR people whine about others not bootstrapping because they don't want to believe that their game could possibly be unbalanced.

Yay. Shuma's back. Where's our list of tournaments swept by GKs?

pretre wrote:Yay. Shuma's back. Where's our list of tournaments swept by GKs?

I gave you one already. Both Nova Opens and the Ard boyz prelims. One is a major tourney with like 100 people. One is a national Tourney with thousands. One is an international invitational with some of the worlds best players. As I said previously, it doesn't appear that you're reading results correctly or you're simply not reading them at all.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Dok wrote:This is a silly thread. No army is an auto-win button unless you're playing against a robot. Time has passed and people have devised tactics to beat GK. Just as they devised tactics to beat SW, just as they devised tactics to beat IG, etc, etc.

Also, Complaining about purifiers when there are Grey hunters out there seems like a silly waste of time. You can take more than 2:1 grey hunters to purifiers when you factor in crowe. I'm sure all the SW players are like "woo hoo! I mean... uh... yeah, those purifiers are crazy OP!!!". And anyways what does complaining about them get done? Do you think GW is gonna come down from on high and ban something? When was the last time that happened... oh, right. Never.

TLR Work on beating lists, not bitching about them.

I'm real sure those space wolves are going to do well when a librarian might of titan+hammerhands a unit of DCAs and they cause (on average) 25 power weapon wounds at initiative six to your gray hunters while being less expensive. I'm sure you'll work all the way through beating the assaulting purifiers which kill gray hunters at a rate of one per three attacks. Gray hunters kill purifiers at a rate of one per twelve. Purifiers do not cost four times what gray hunters do and a squad of 10 purifiers vs a squad of 10 gray hunters in an even fight will result in 6 dead GHs and .66 dead purifiers when you factor in I6 and the fact that kills deny attacks. That's not even counting cleansing flame or the storm bolters.

TLR people whine about others not bootstrapping because they don't want to believe that their game could possibly be unbalanced.

That was quite possibly one of the worst examples I have ever seen, ever.

A few reality checks:

1) If you're going to compare units, compare things people actually take. Almost no one puts halberds on their purifiers.
2) You're not factoring in the cost of crowe, a relatively useless character (almost a liability since he can't even join a unit and enemies get bonuses against him)
3) A librarian (165 is the typical cost) + unit of dcas (you're causing 25 power weapon wounds somehow, so I'll guess, hitting on 3's, that you have roughly a full 12 charging) (180 points), and there isn't a rune priest around to stop said hammerhand, who, unlike the rarely taken librarian, is taken in every SW army, period? Yea, that grey hunter unit getting killed by a unit twice it's points, who luckily avoided hooding on both of it's powers, who luckily got the charge even though there isn't a transport to carry them on a unit that would have a transport, and didn't have to charge through cover which would make them I1 (no grenades), and didn't get shot up on it's way TO charging. Man, those grey hunters did have it rough I guess.

"Purifiers do not cost four times what gray hunters do and a squad of 10 purifiers vs a squad of 10 gray hunters in an even fight will result in 6 dead GHs and .66 dead purifiers when you factor in I6 and the fact that kills deny attacks. That's not even counting cleansing flame or the storm bolters."

1) A typical 10 man purifier unit runs 285, without transport, that's without your halberds, that no one takes. That's 10, with 1 hammer, and 4 psycannons. 10 Grey Hunters costs under 200 points. How is this an "even fight"?
2) If you count cleansing flame, you couldn't count your "broken" hammerhanding which I'm sure you included in the wounding necessary to kill 6 GH's
3) You didnt count the grey hunters shooting, why count the storm bolters?

That fight actually looks like this, and I'll even give you the halberds no one takes, now the purifiers are 300 points without a transport, yippee!

Purifiers charge

-Halberds, 5 guys, 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, if you get hammerhand off, 5 dead, if you don't, 3.75
-Guys with psycannons/special weapons at I4: 12 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds with hammerhand, 1.33 dead, or 3 wounds and 1 dead without

5 GH swing back if they had hammer hand: 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 1.25 dead purifiers
6 GH swing back if they didn't have hammer hand: 18 attacks, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 1.5 dead purifiers

hammers and wolfguard with fist go simul, a couple more guys drop.

Without the charge (GH will always get a charge attack with counter attack)

Halberds: 10 -> 5 -> (3/2.5)
7 ish Gh swing back...you see where this is going

Without halberds, the combat is basically a wash. And thats with a specialized elite slot unit versus a troop unit that costs 1/3 less.

GK's are fine, get over it.

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:Yay. Shuma's back. Where's our list of tournaments swept by GKs?

I gave you one already. Both Nova Opens and the Ard boyz prelims. One is a major tourney with like 100 people. One is a national Tourney with thousands. One is an international invitational with some of the worlds best players. As I said previously, it doesn't appear that you're reading results correctly or you're simply not reading them at all.

You said more than 50% of the top tables.

Okay, what were the top tables at Nova?
I gave you 'Ard Boyz Prelims and one Final already, although I think that is a function of how many GK armies showed up and we have no way to know that. FWIW, the West coast final was not won by GK, but we don't have top table info except for the one final you provided. We certainly don't have top table info for prelims. FWIW, my prelims was DE vs IG on the top table.

So far, BFS (less than 1/2 of the top tables) and Da Boyz (less than 1/2 of the top 10, even counting just Battle Points) both proved you wrong, as was determined in the other thread.


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So basically, provide me with examples of >50% of the top tables being GK.

I accept that Blackmoor is a superb general with a good army, but I don't accept that that's the only reason he won.

If you show me that it is an across the board >50% of top tables thing, as you originally contended, than I will accept your premise.


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And just as a reminder, here's what you said:

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:If GK was as OP as everyone on the internet puts it out to be we'd probably have some different results in the competitive community.

Gray knights being half or more of the top tables in every major tourney since the book was released isn't good enough?

Prove it.

DPBellathrom wrote:I'm starting to get sick of all this OP crap. no army is over powered. all that happens is that when a new dex comes along people gack themselves as they have to think up a new tactic to beat an old army.

"oh no, now GK's have STR8 autocannons and I cant just sit back and fire lasbacks at them. they must be broken herp derp"

"oh no, necrons have a harp that can blow up a tank each turn, whats my all mek army going to do now?!? they must be broken"

you see where this is going.... -_-'

Oh no, gray knights have psycanons which are identical to assault canons except they have one strength higher and are ten points less! Oh no! A venerable psyback is the same cost as a venerable rifleman with armor but has str8 shots and can be made scoring and given supercover! Oh no, a grey knight palladin with a psycanon costs the same as a terminator with an assault canon but his gun is better, his weapon is better, his WS is better, he has psychic powers, and he has more wounds! Oh no, a death cult assassin costs less than a genestealer but has more attacks, a power weapon, has access to two different kinds of assault vehicles and benefits from numerous stacking psychic powers! Oh no! A techmarine can take psychotrope grenades and in an assault will automatically win because you're unit will become WS1, will attack itself, or wont attack at all! Oh no! An unupgraded dreadknights costs less and is better then an upgraded demon prince and hands almost every MC in the game its own ass while being sometimes half the points (and it's considered a weak unit in the book)!

Herp derp durp de derp. Everything is balanced, nothing is wrong in the game of 40k. A game laughed at as being woefully unbalanced at times.

whitedragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:I said that IG and SW need half a brain to win (reading comprehension is your friend). GK needs no brain.

I have a feeling he understood exactly what you meant. Half a brain, no brain, whatever fraction of brainy organ, you apparently need some to play Space Wolves, whereas you can have a head as empty as a coconut and still face-roll games with Grey Knights.

Semantics, because you can't defend your point any other way, isn't that a surprise?

Half a brain is decidedly more than no brain at all I would think. In the land of the empty headed folks, the man with half a brain is king as the saying goes. So it seems to me that they are different and not merely semantics.

Okee. I understand that in reality, there's a difference, but in the context stating exactly how much brain you need to play Space Wolves effectively when the other side of the conversation understands what you mean, is semantics.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:Yay. Shuma's back. Where's our list of tournaments swept by GKs?

I gave you one already. Both Nova Opens and the Ard boyz prelims. One is a major tourney with like 100 people. One is a national Tourney with thousands. One is an international invitational with some of the worlds best players. As I said previously, it doesn't appear that you're reading results correctly or you're simply not reading them at all.

You said more than 50% of the top tables.

Okay, what were the top tables at Nova?
I gave you 'Ard Boyz Prelims and one Final already, although I think that is a function of how many GK armies showed up and we have no way to know that. FWIW, the West coast final was not won by GK, but we don't have top table info except for the one final you provided. We certainly don't have top table info for prelims. FWIW, my prelims was DE vs IG on the top table.

So far, BFS (less than 1/2 of the top tables) and Da Boyz (less than 1/2 of the top 10, even counting just Battle Points) both proved you wrong, as was determined in the other thread.

This is a bs argument. If it's the top two then they have been in the top of every one. If it's the top five then they all have at least two in there, in one of them it was four. If it's the top 10 then that number skews down. If it's the top 20 then it skews further. The more inclusive the "top tables' are then the closer you are going to get to parity with the statistical weight of the entrys of the GKs in those tournies. This whole argument is a waste of time. "Top tables" is not a quantitative measurement with a built in definition and yours has been shifting consistently. I was being hyperbolic in the first place and you called me out on it, but guess what we established? That they've won almost every major tournament since their release. Were they 5 of the top 10 in every one? Nope. Did they win everything? Nope.

But I guess that's why I didn't say "They have won everything" or "they have been five out of the top ten in everything".

That they've won almost every major tournament since their release.

Prove it.

BFS, Da Boyz and 'Ard Boyz Finals - West were all won by non GK. Your move.


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Heck not even 50% of preliminary and semis were Gk, I bet.

pretre wrote:

That they've won almost every major tournament since their release.

Prove it.

BFS, Da Boyz and 'Ard Boyz Finals - West were all won by non GK. Your move.

It looks like the GKs won ard boyz to me, but I can't find a very official report on the winners. Just this one website that specifies that it was regional (which doesn't make sense to me).

Da Boyz is an outlier as it wasn't a strictly competitive event and was heavily influenced by comp and army comp scores. These are not reflected in the codex or it's power level.

And it looks like they did win the battle for salvation. They won the gold bracket which I assume is the top bracket after the other two were settled in the first couple of rounds.

I also noted that they won the nova open and invitational, so it looks like they won four out of the five tournies we are currently talking about.

Feel free to keep making declarative statements until you hit a true one though.

This is kinda funny actually. One thing too thats already been said but.. even if everyone thought they were op. What would it change and why arent they winning every tourney? If they were that easy to play why on youtube are they getting tabled by Eldar? Ill say some things like cleansing flames are kinda silly but theyre sm in rhinos. If you can kill that then maybe smurfs are too much for you too.

There were three ard boyz. West, central and east.

pretre wrote:There were three ard boyz. West, central and east.

Ahh, they won the Seattle one then.


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pretre wrote:Feel free to keep making declarative statements until you hit a true one though.

Feel free to keep misreading tournament reports and presenting false information.


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Draigo wrote:This is kinda funny actually. One thing too thats already been said but.. even if everyone thought they were op. What would it change and why arent they winning every tourney? If they were that easy to play why on youtube are they getting tabled by Eldar? Ill say some things like cleansing flames are kinda silly but theyre sm in rhinos. If you can kill that then maybe smurfs are too much for you too.

ITT you people have no idea what you're talking about and do not attend largescale tournaments.


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Wait a minute, I quit this thread already. What am I still doing here? Imma go play Skryim, you all win.

West Coast was in California and DE won.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/403205.page#3478397

CSM won Midwest 'Ard Boyz Finals.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/403205.page#3478813

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/383253.page#3545363
Mechanicon - BA

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/403205.page#3478277
Ard Boyz East - IG

Central Ard Boyz Final was won by Chaos. Local Semi's by DE. Bugeater was won by Chaos. Nova Invitational was won by GK's but the Nova Open was won by Space Wolves. I want to say of the top 16 at the Nova Open (1st day 4-0's) at least 4 were GK's but I could be slightly off. Mike would have to confirm for me.

We'll see what happens at this years events but as yet they haven't been taking #1 at even a quarter of the major events since their release.

Comikaze - IG
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/394584.page#3546785


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BFS - GK
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/402651.page#3426567

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:There were three ard boyz. West, central and east.

Ahh, they won the Seattle one then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:Feel free to keep making declarative statements until you hit a true one though.

Feel free to keep misreading tournament reports and presenting false information.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Draigo wrote:This is kinda funny actually. One thing too thats already been said but.. even if everyone thought they were op. What would it change and why arent they winning every tourney? If they were that easy to play why on youtube are they getting tabled by Eldar? Ill say some things like cleansing flames are kinda silly but theyre sm in rhinos. If you can kill that then maybe smurfs are too much for you too.

ITT you people have no idea what you're talking about and do not attend largescale tournaments.


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Wait a minute, I quit this thread already. What am I still doing here? Imma go play Skryim, you all win.

The portion about attendence is kinda silly because you can't actually make theat claim seriously. Unless you follow everyone around anyway. Plus internet posts results for those that we can't attend and theyre disproving you.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Dok wrote:This is a silly thread. No army is an auto-win button unless you're playing against a robot. Time has passed and people have devised tactics to beat GK. Just as they devised tactics to beat SW, just as they devised tactics to beat IG, etc, etc.

Also, Complaining about purifiers when there are Grey hunters out there seems like a silly waste of time. You can take more than 2:1 grey hunters to purifiers when you factor in crowe. I'm sure all the SW players are like "woo hoo! I mean... uh... yeah, those purifiers are crazy OP!!!". And anyways what does complaining about them get done? Do you think GW is gonna come down from on high and ban something? When was the last time that happened... oh, right. Never.

TLR Work on beating lists, not bitching about them.

I'm real sure those space wolves are going to do well when a librarian might of titan+hammerhands a unit of DCAs and they cause (on average) 25 power weapon wounds at initiative six to your gray hunters while being less expensive. I'm sure you'll work all the way through beating the assaulting purifiers which kill gray hunters at a rate of one per three attacks. Gray hunters kill purifiers at a rate of one per twelve. Purifiers do not cost four times what gray hunters do and a squad of 10 purifiers vs a squad of 10 gray hunters in an even fight will result in 6 dead GHs and .66 dead purifiers when you factor in I6 and the fact that kills deny attacks. That's not even counting cleansing flame or the storm bolters.

TLR people whine about others not bootstrapping because they don't want to believe that their game could possibly be unbalanced.

So what you're saying is if you take a 325 point unit and charge a 200 point unit in the open, that you will probably kill it?

Let's pretend the SW player isn't just standing in the open. That they are in terrain. Now if you charge that unit, you will just lose horribly due to DCAs not having grenades. Now how did that DCA unit and librarian get to those grey hunters? Did they walk? Probably not. They probably took a land raider or a stormraven. And what about getting the ability to even take DCAs? That's at least another inquisitor who's using your other hq slot. So in reality, you paid upwards of 600 points to potentially kill a unit in the open. Good job! You must win a lot!

Alright, time for me to jump in here.

Grey Knights are not dominating tournaments. They are well represented, so naturally they are placing well. As stated, the ‘Ard Boys and most other tournaments are not being won by them.

To add a few more tournaments not being won by Grey Knights:
Feast of Blades –BT
Wargames Con –DE
Bay Area Open-IG
Da Grand Waaagh-SW overall/IG Best General
I could go on, be there has not been the type of tournament domination that you think there is.

And as for as a no brainer list? Now I have heard it all!

I started my Grey Knight army at the Slaughter in Space in LA in June and I finished in the middle of the pack. I then took them to Wargames Con in Texas in July and on day #1 I went 2-2 and did not make it even into the top 32 players in the championship bracket. Next up was The Bay Area Open in August where I went 5-0-2 and I took 3rd place. The last stop on my tour is The Nova Open in Virginia in Sept, and I have to report that Grey Knights did not win the tournament, but in fact, (and I have firsthand knowledge) that they finished in second.

The problem is that you see a Grey Knight army on the top table and assume that the player does not know anything, and it is nothing but easy wins and sunshine. The fact is that I am no stranger to doing well at major tournaments, and even then it took a lot of losses and a long time to hone my army to get it to where I can win consistently.

If you want to see a comparison I would like to point you to the Ork Codex when it first came out. Now that was codex that dominated the tournament scene the way that Grey Knights can only hope to! If you want to talk about a no-brainer army that you can win without even thinking about, I refer you to Scott Simpson who took the Orks to the Chicago GT in 2008 that he borrowed from a friend, and played the army for the first time. With his lack of familiarity he ended up getting second place. Now remember, this was back when GWs GTs were huge, and they were the only game in town.

I refer you to this post that was made during the time and here is my comment there:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219645.page

Blackmoor wrote:Is it me, or does it seem like this is the year of the Green Tide?

Fresh off of their win in the LVGT, they take the top spot at Chicago.

Not only did they win, but they were 3 of the top 7, and 5 out of the top 15.

The past few months I have been playing my Chaos Space Marines who a lot of people think is one of the weaker codexes out there, and I am 2-1 against Grey Knights, and my only loss was because my dice refused to roll above a 4 to damage vehicles.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Being new didn't immediately put Dark Eldar, Blood Andgels, or tyranids on top tables. It probably doesn't help that GKs are the primary foil to two out of the three of those armies though.

DE's point is that you couldn't field BA,DE or Tyranids by opening 3 or 4 boxes of GK Terms and assembling them.

Except, of course, that I can field a 2,000 point BA army with but 4 units in it.

Four.

Yes. That is right.

I blame the Death Company and Vanguard for that.

]Alright, now I am getting warmed up!

Next up is 10 Purifiers vs. 10 Grey Hunters? Come on, how many points is that?

It has been said before but:
Purifiers do not get their force/power weapons on the heavy weapon models.
Rune Priests have a 50% chance of blocking psychic powers, and even then you are testing on LD9, and if you eat a perils of the warp goodbye squad leader.
Grey Hunters get Counter-Attack
Grey Hunters have a banner were they can re-roll all of the “1”s that they roll.
I could go on, but in a point-for point comparison, grey hunters stack up well to purifiers.

And Death Cult Assassins? Come on…are you serious? I have played against many of these and they have never done anything. Do you know why? Because how are you going to get them into assault? The only way is in an expensive Stormraven which gets blown out of the sky, or a land raider which adds over 250 points to the cost, and now has to be in melta range to get the payload into assault. Otherwise you can’t get DCA into assault because you just move away from rhinos and chimeras, or just stand in cover and they can’t hurt you. This is why you can't take units in a vacuum and compare them.

Frothmog wrote:
The topic of this is Grey Knights are the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade.

I think by Augustus pointing out all the things that they can do and then others following up with basically - oh yea? well this army has this one thing that is like one of those, and this army has this one thing that is like one of the other things you pointed out - kind of makes the point of this topic true given that Grey Knights don't have just one or two of those things.... they have all of them... no other codex has all of them.

Challenge excepted!

Again, those with short memories I take you back to 2008 when the Ork Codex first came out when you want to talk about overpowered books.

Now on to the one-on-one comparisons: Grey Knights vs. Eldar! Now remember, this is an illustration, and the Eldar can’t do everything that they Grey Knights can do, but they break a lot of the laws that you hold so dear.

Augustus wrote:Furthermore it is filled with as much or more game breaking precedent than anything ever published:
Mindstrike missiles break the targeting rules
Explained as: NEW: For killing Psykers, it's a completely new problem, it also has absurd range, much worse than jaws, and different. Everyone knows JOTWW is broken, why would continuing THAT trend make a good rule? It doesn't.

Mindstrikes, meet Mindwar. You get to pick any model within 18” and roll off on a leadership check. Not only is it good for killing Psychers, but everything else as well. Note: Back in 3rd edition it had a 36” range. Also Runes of Warding not only kills psychers easily, but unlike anything else in the game.

Augustus wrote:Scoring vehicles
Defined as: NEW: Scoring vehicles that you can define on the fly during a setup

You got me there. And it is before setup, not during. Of course you forgot to point out that you have to pay for a 175+ point IC to get them.

Augustus wrote:Vehicles with psychic powers
Defined as: NEW ALL Vehicles with psychic powers

As said not all of their vehicles have it, and the ones that do only have one power that can be nullified by psychic hoods and Runes of Warding. Second, although the Eldar do not have fortitude I will say that they do have the unique ability of holo-fields that fulfill the same role (increase the vehicles durability/effectiveness) and it can’t be blocked.

Augustus wrote:Units with collective psychic powers’
Defined as: Sorry, right,... how about Whole armies of scoring troop Units with collective psychic powers

You mean like Warlock powers, or like Seer Councils? The Eldar have psychic powers that effect whole units like Doom, Guide and Fortune, but I do not see what casting powers as a collective has to do with anything.

Augustus wrote:Egregious cover manipulation.
Defined as: NEW: Shroud hides tanks. +1 cover for vehicles

Like Pathfinders 2+ cover saves? Or the fact that Fortune let’s you re-roll your cover saves(or any other save) on any unit or vehicle (sounds much better than only a +1 cover save). In Mathammer terms with a 4+cover save 33.3% of the shots will go through Shrouding, 25% through Fortune.

Augustus wrote:Changing the stat lines of other models.
Defined as: Changing the Toughness stat lines of other models

You mean like a Banshee’s War Shout taking you down to WS1? Although I do not really see the difference between Rad Grenades -1 to Toughness and Doom’s re-roll wounds. They are both modifiers to units so they do more wounds; it is just that the mechanics are different. Of course Doom is good in both shooting and the assault phase...and not just in the first round of combat.

Augustus wrote:Immunity to deep strike

Eldar do not have anything like this. (Even though we are talking about Eldar here, there are things that modify deep strike like Land Speeder Storms, and Demonhunter’s Mystics). Oh, and Immunity to Deep Strike? Hardly. You have to take the right units (which suck) and then you have to cast it. So if you go second, deep striking armies will land on turn #1 before you get it off, and it can be blocked by Hoods and Runes of Warding. Add to this that they are casting it on a Leadership of 9, so if you have any kind of psychic defense, you are in great shape.

Augustus wrote:Teleporting for movement.
Defined as: NEW: Teleporting for movement turbo boosting jump packs and monstrous creatures.

Is it the word “Teleporting” that you don’t like or just a movement type that is different than the norm? Because if it is the latter Let’s see, Warp Spiders can do a jump move and can end up moving 24” in a turn. Vehicles have star engines where they move an additional 12” for a total move of 36”. Eldar Jetbikes have a 6” assault move. Swooping Hawks can jump back into reserve.

Playing vs Grey Knights is like playing a different game.

Not really. It is just that we are use to Eldar and what they can do for several editions so their rules do not seem different. It is when you have a new codex with totally new rules they seem to be broken, but they are just new.

Grey Knights are the flavor of the month which makes finding the truth a bit tougher. But they are extremely good... I wont call them op since it makes very little difference to me if they are op or borderline op, its a thin red line in any case. If someones claiming they are not above the curve, I think they are misguided but whats the difference. They are what they are and they are dominating the Finnish tournament scene, but im not stating that as the singular truth.

And to sum it up...yes, they are a powerful codex like IG and SW. A lot of it though is that you are unfamiliar with Grey Knights and you do not know there weaknesses yet.

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:There were three ard boyz. West, central and east.

Ahh, they won the Seattle one then.


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pretre wrote:Feel free to keep making declarative statements until you hit a true one though.

Feel free to keep misreading tournament reports and presenting false information.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Draigo wrote:This is kinda funny actually. One thing too thats already been said but.. even if everyone thought they were op. What would it change and why arent they winning every tourney? If they were that easy to play why on youtube are they getting tabled by Eldar? Ill say some things like cleansing flames are kinda silly but theyre sm in rhinos. If you can kill that then maybe smurfs are too much for you too.

ITT you people have no idea what you're talking about and do not attend largescale tournaments.


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Wait a minute, I quit this thread already. What am I still doing here? Imma go play Skryim, you all win.

I enjoy how you basically ignored my post about how your "purifiers vs grey hunters" example was a total croc, keep on making statements and ignoring the information. Blackmoor covered his as well in his recent post.

Also, to the "you people don't attend large tournaments"

-I attend 4-5 GT's a year, and was part of the Invitational (one of the events you are citing, yes?) and the NOVA Open
I believe I also saw, at the very least, blackmoor and hulksmash posting in disagreement...two other players who attend a slew of large tournaments every year, including the invitational and ard boyz

Didn't Darkwyn win the last two Gts? I know he won Feast but was their one before that? I guess BT are broken.....

Good points Blackmoor.

Honestly, I wonder if all this rage is going to be present when the next marine book comes out.

Blackmoor wrote:
And to sum it up...yes, they are a powerful codex like IG and SW. A lot of it though is that you are unfamiliar with Grey Knights and you do not know there weaknesses yet.

Thanks Blackmoor, appreciate all of your points, especially since you're experienced with the army itself and the high-end tourney scene.

In other news, I think Shuma has fled due to lack of proof.

daedalus wrote:Good points Blackmoor.

Honestly, I wonder if all this rage is going to be present when the next marine book comes out.

I heard the Chaos Codex was going to coincide with the apocalypse.

daedalus wrote:Honestly, I wonder if all this rage is going to be present when the next marine book comes out.

Of course, because there are two directions it can go...

If it's weaker than GK, the people who play that army will feel shafted and be unhappy about it.

If it's stronger than GK, the people who think GK are OP will be that much more up in arms about the new one.

Unless the next marine book is CSM, in which case replace the first reaction with "more proof that GW hates non-Imperial armies."

pretre wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:
And to sum it up...yes, they are a powerful codex like IG and SW. A lot of it though is that you are unfamiliar with Grey Knights and you do not know there weaknesses yet.

Thanks Blackmoor, appreciate all of your points, especially since you're experienced with the army itself and the high-end tourney scene.

In other news, I think Shuma has fled due to lack of proof.

No, I was playing skyrim and I have a job. I'll get back to this in a bit I guess, though I won't be responding to you.

I prefer to scrap GK than SW with my vanilla SM....

I don't play or own any GK, but its fething daft.

They are well represented because they are new. Simple yes?

I hear that a lot of new armies are overpowered. If all armies are overpowered, than none of them are overpowered. I think most armies have that illusion because they're more powerful than they were.

Also, a lot of "overpowered" units are actually paper units. The Leman Russ variants are good examples. Most of them are actually bad/not good or are extremely situation specific, such as the Punisher.

Dok wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Dok wrote:This is a silly thread. No army is an auto-win button unless you're playing against a robot. Time has passed and people have devised tactics to beat GK. Just as they devised tactics to beat SW, just as they devised tactics to beat IG, etc, etc.

Also, Complaining about purifiers when there are Grey hunters out there seems like a silly waste of time. You can take more than 2:1 grey hunters to purifiers when you factor in crowe. I'm sure all the SW players are like "woo hoo! I mean... uh... yeah, those purifiers are crazy OP!!!". And anyways what does complaining about them get done? Do you think GW is gonna come down from on high and ban something? When was the last time that happened... oh, right. Never.

TLR Work on beating lists, not bitching about them.

I'm real sure those space wolves are going to do well when a librarian might of titan+hammerhands a unit of DCAs and they cause (on average) 25 power weapon wounds at initiative six to your gray hunters while being less expensive. I'm sure you'll work all the way through beating the assaulting purifiers which kill gray hunters at a rate of one per three attacks. Gray hunters kill purifiers at a rate of one per twelve. Purifiers do not cost four times what gray hunters do and a squad of 10 purifiers vs a squad of 10 gray hunters in an even fight will result in 6 dead GHs and .66 dead purifiers when you factor in I6 and the fact that kills deny attacks. That's not even counting cleansing flame or the storm bolters.

TLR people whine about others not bootstrapping because they don't want to believe that their game could possibly be unbalanced.

So what you're saying is if you take a 325 point unit and charge a 200 point unit in the open, that you will probably kill it?

Let's pretend the SW player isn't just standing in the open. That they are in terrain. Now if you charge that unit, you will just lose horribly due to DCAs not having grenades. Now how did that DCA unit and librarian get to those grey hunters? Did they walk? Probably not. They probably took a land raider or a stormraven. And what about getting the ability to even take DCAs? That's at least another inquisitor who's using your other hq slot. So in reality, you paid upwards of 600 points to potentially kill a unit in the open. Good job! You must win a lot!

The DCAs will have grenades if they're assaulting from a crusader, in which case they will likely either be acting in a standoff role and countercharging you (since the army will win in a shooting fight) or they'll be multicharging and killing on average 2-3 entire grey hunter squads at the same time before the grey hunters strike back with average rolls. If they are using a raven then they're probably either reserving in or jetting towards a target of opportunity. The threat range is enormous and it's not particularly difficult to chose a target or numerous targets that aren't in cover. This includes vehicles due to Might of Titan giving the MC ability. The inquisitor himself is excellent for the points, gives your army utility, and allows the taking of intensely cheap scoring melta units.

The DCA squad is going to hover around 450 points with vehicle and librarian. Including the inquisitor in that is a red herring as he acts independently from that unit and pretending that the vehicle itself adds nothing is foolish.

We cannot objectively evaluate individual player skill with any degree of accuracy, so the only objective measuring tool we have to judge armies are their battle point (not including soft scores) and win/loss results in tournaments. Thus far, GKs have won essentially 1-2 GTs since their release. DE have actuallly done better and niether have gotten within sniffing distance of SW and IG totals. Both the Ork and SW books dominated the scene in their initial year of release, incidentally as Blackmoore highlighted.

So either every person playing GKs at the tournament level are vastly inferior generals compared to the players who won those events with supposedly inferior armies..... or GKs are not as OP as people are claiming. Given the people whom we know have taken these armies to high level events (Blackmoore and Hulksmash, among several others) I think its pretty clear that its the latter. How could any rational person possibly argue otherwise?

In reality, the GKs are actually on the same level as BA, by every objective metric. They place high, but rarely win top general.

A libro with no powers or wargear and a LRC is 405 points. Adding in the dcas, powers and a warding stave to keep that lib alive pushes it to 640. That's a pretty large chunk of your army to devote to getting one charge off unhindered.
A smart opponent with melta will offer up a sacrificial unit with a melta gun and get the rest of his army in range to blow the dca off the board once they wipe the sacrificial unit. DCA are not that hard to play against. They only do one thing and they don't even do it that well. If they had grenades on the other hand, then they would be awesome.

Dok wrote:A libro with no powers or wargear and a LRC is 405 points. Adding in the dcas, powers and a warding stave to keep that lib alive pushes it to 640. That's a pretty large chunk of your army to devote to getting one charge off unhindered.
A smart opponent with melta will offer up a sacrificial unit with a melta gun and get the rest of his army in range to blow the dca off the board once they wipe the sacrificial unit. DCA are not that hard to play against. They only do one thing and they don't even do it that well. If they had grenades on the other hand, then they would be awesome.

This is the part where I reference where I said that crusader or other LR DCAs are used more in a counter assault and late game role, while conversely the raven DCAs are the attacking unit (and will often have a techmarine with grenades instead of the libby). A large portion of any death star unit is knowing when to keep it back and what situations to keep it away from.

iproxtaco wrote:

Okee. I understand that in reality, there's a difference, but in the context stating exactly how much brain you need to play Space Wolves effectively when the other side of the conversation understands what you mean, is semantics.

A pedant walks into a bar. Well it's a restaurant with a bar attached. Technically it's a brewpub since it has an onsite microbrewery.

ShumaGorath wrote:No, I was playing skyrim and I have a job. I'll get back to this in a bit I guess, though I won't be responding to you.

Aww. I'm hurt.

Will you respond to the huge list of tourneys I listed where GK didn't win? What about Hulk and Blackmoor's list?


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Phazael wrote:...DE have actuallly done better...
...snippy...
In reality, the GKs are actually on the same level as BA, by every objective metric. They place high, but rarely win top general.

DE ARE OP!!!! Phazael said it.

Seriously though, I agree with this assessment. They are good, same level as BA is a decent place to be, but not OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ozymandias wrote:A pedant walks into a bar. Well it's a restaurant with a bar attached. Technically it's a brewpub since it has an onsite microbrewery.

Nice.

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:Didn't Darkwyn win the last two Gts? I know he won Feast but was their one before that? I guess BT are broken.....

The funny part is that BT probably are broken at present, but very few people really play them regardless.

sirisaacnuton wrote:If it's weaker than GK, the people who play that army will feel shafted and be unhappy about it.

I see your point, but I think there are a lot of us who would disagree. A lot of GK players grew up on DH. We're used to being shafted.

ShumaGorath wrote:

The DCAs will have grenades if they're assaulting from a crusader, in which case they will likely either be acting in a standoff role and countercharging you (since the army will win in a shooting fight) or they'll be multicharging and killing on average 2-3 entire grey hunter squads at the same time before the grey hunters strike back with average rolls. If they are using a raven then they're probably either reserving in or jetting towards a target of opportunity. The threat range is enormous and it's not particularly difficult to chose a target or numerous targets that aren't in cover. This includes vehicles due to Might of Titan giving the MC ability. The inquisitor himself is excellent for the points, gives your army utility, and allows the taking of intensely cheap scoring melta units.

How many DCA are you talking here? How many Grey Hunters? At one point, I calculated each DCA as being 1.5 MEQ wounds on the round they charge. That's a lot, admittedly, but I don't think that's "multicharging and killing on average 2-3 entire grey hunter squads" If you have 12 DCA, it's possible that you could multicharge and kill both squads to a man before they get to attack back, averaging 18 kills. Assuming that you were able to divide the DCA evenly amongst the two GH squads. A question to ask at this point is WTF were you doing positioning yourself where you could get multiassaulted? Do you feel cheated when you have your models bunched up and your opponent has large blast weapons? You have to play your army while keeping in mind your opponents strengths. For example, you don't let Nids or Orks multiassault you, right?

The DCA squad is going to hover around 450 points with vehicle and librarian. Including the inquisitor in that is a red herring as he acts independently from that unit and pretending that the vehicle itself adds nothing is foolish.

Ah. That explains a lot. I now understand why Purifiers and Paladins are so amazing to you.

How many DCA are you talking here? How many Grey Hunters? At one point, I calculated each DCA as being 1.5 MEQ wounds on the round they charge. That's a lot, admittedly, but I don't think that's "multicharging and killing on average 2-3 entire grey hunter squads" If you have 12 DCA, it's possible that you could multicharge and kill both squads to a man before they get to attack back, averaging 18 kills. Assuming that you were able to divide the DCA evenly amongst the two GH squads

4 attacks on the charge, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds. A squad of ten with a librarian is killing on average about 19.5 Gray hunters with an average set of rolls. With good rolls they can bring the last ten down, but two squads is the "reasonable limit".

Assuming that you were able to divide the DCA evenly amongst the two GH squads. A question to ask at this point is WTF were you doing positioning yourself where you could get multiassaulted?

I don't play space wolves? In my experience GKs are exceptionally good at popping rhino chassis and most marine efforts in land raider killing involve a melta drop of some sort which necessitates proximity to the unit itself. You could certainly hold up in ruins and forests, but at that point it's a shooting game and Gks excel in standing firefights. That's part of why the DCA unit is used in a counter assault role, they're better off being reactive against most MEQ forces while the rest of the GK force pummels them at 24 inches.

Do you feel cheated when you have your models bunched up and your opponent has large blast weapons? You have to play your army while keeping in mind your opponents strengths. For example, you don't let Nids or Orks multiassault you, right?

Let them? I find it hard to avoid "letting" ghazgull and snikrot get a multi assault on my backfield when I have over 200 orks walking up the front. Are you some sort of untouchable golden idle who has never been assaulted and has never rolled an 11 for leadership?

Ah. That explains a lot. I now understand why Purifiers and Paladins are so amazing to you.

I never said they were amazing (though they are). I said that they beat Gray hunters soundly in close combat. Which they do. Consistently and in almost every possible situation. I was posting in response to someone that stated that their numerical inferiority made them duly inferior despite killing MEQs in combat at an almost 5-1 ratio as GHs while having twice as many shots at range with a higher strength weapon and access to psycanons and force weapons. This is ignoring their ability to kill entire ork squads before combat with clever combat squadding or placement.

Broken as the GK are, the players themselves usually are respectful enough. Almost never got into rules arguements, just laughed everytime I failed a save. The Gk are heavily unbalanced and only leafblower style armies seem to take them out. Tahts how the IG player won the BA open from what Ive heard. They had no idea how the other army played, resulting in the GK player losing. IG may be one of the least played armies currently, but they always end up top tier if its an experienced player. Im working on a necron list to specifically counter the GKs.....not doing much but epic fail currently.

@Defeatmyarmy

No offense but I don't think you play enough. GK's aren't broken. The next year will really tell but I doubt we'll see the kind of domination that SW's and before them Orks managed.

And IG are not one of the least played codexes. By far....

Defeatmyarmy wrote:Broken as the GK are, the players themselves usually are respectful enough. Almost never got into rules arguements, just laughed everytime I failed a save. The Gk are heavily unbalanced and only leafblower style armies seem to take them out. Tahts how the IG player won the BA open from what Ive heard. They had no idea how the other army played, resulting in the GK player losing. IG may be one of the least played armies currently, but they always end up top tier if its an experienced player. Im working on a necron list to specifically counter the GKs.....not doing much but epic fail currently.

If the leafblower armies are taking out broken GK armies, doesn't that mean that they are the broken armies and not GKs?

Blackmoor wrote:

Defeatmyarmy wrote:Broken as the GK are, the players themselves usually are respectful enough. Almost never got into rules arguements, just laughed everytime I failed a save. The Gk are heavily unbalanced and only leafblower style armies seem to take them out. Tahts how the IG player won the BA open from what Ive heard. They had no idea how the other army played, resulting in the GK player losing. IG may be one of the least played armies currently, but they always end up top tier if its an experienced player. Im working on a necron list to specifically counter the GKs.....not doing much but epic fail currently.

If the leafblower armies are taking out broken GK armies, doesn't that mean that they are the broken armies and not GKs?

Is it 2009 again and I missed it? DFA is saying leafblower is the new boogieman?

ShumaGorath wrote:

4 attacks on the charge, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds. A squad of ten with a librarian is killing on average about 19.5 Gray hunters with an average set of rolls. With good rolls they can bring the last ten down, but two squads is the "reasonable limit".

Ah. I think I forgot to calculate the WS5 in my initial mathhammering.

I don't play space wolves? In my experience GKs are exceptionally good at popping rhino chassis and most marine efforts in land raider killing involve a melta drop of some sort which necessitates proximity to the unit itself. You could certainly hold up in ruins and forests, but at that point it's a shooting game and Gks excel in standing firefights. That's part of why the DCA unit is used in a counter assault role, they're better off being reactive against most MEQ forces while the rest of the GK force pummels them at 24 inches.

Okay, but it's a situation where, be they in a Stormraven or a Land Raider, it can still be popped first turn. You don't think that the fact that you've got 350-500 points wrapped up in a Land Raider wasting time waiting to be reactive or a Storm Raven getting ready to rush in with "Kill me. First." written on the front of it is significant? If they didn't exist in that form, that'd just be another Dreadnought, Purifier squad, or more Paladins to cram down your throat. In a lot of situations, that would be even more effective.

I have also been to a lot of tourneys, some that Blackmoor attended, and the issue with GK that I think has been glossed over is HOW they break the game, not so much how powerful they are in tourneys (though I do contend that GK are clearly the strongest army in the game, that is not the point I want to make currently).

For example, GK armies can literally table Daemons without incident, without shooting and without assault. No army should be able to win without playing, while sacrificing NOTHING versus other armies. I mean, sure infiltrating 100+ kroot may cover the table such that Daemons can not deploy, but this requires a major rewrite of a tau list. GK can do this as a side effect, BY DESIGN.

The last time we had a situation like this was, IMHO, siren in the old Chaos book. No shooting or assaulting allowed on 2 models could win games without firing a shot, especially in the era with even less psychic defense in it.

If the metagame has shifted such that you can not bring Daemons as an army, because Grey Knights invalidate their existance AND Grey Knights are well represented as FotM, then that means Grey Knights, as an army, are Broken. If your opponent can not play the game because of the army you brought, something is wrong.

You have to tailor GKs to do that. You have to bring enough Interceptors + Strikes to cover the board (doesn't require a ton) and you're probably going to need to shunt them. Most competitive GK lists do not have that many. You can't just incidentally table Daemons with most GK lists.

So yes, GK can tailor to completely screw Daemons, but screw themselves in the process. Tell me how that works out for you.

Also, how many actual times has this happened:

GK armies can literally table Daemons without incident, without shooting and without assault.

Like actual, documented times at an event. I haven't heard of any yet.

Again, the reality is most GK armies have little or no units that have Warp Quake. Strikes suck, and Interceptors are over-priced. That is why you see henchman armies and purifier spam.

I played my GKs at the ‘Ard Boyz semi-finals and there was a Chaos Demon player at it that I did not want to play. Do you know why? Because like every other GK player I did not have Warp Quake, but he had a lot of Collars of Khorne that gives him a 2+ save against force weapons.

I'm curious what peoples view on the GK would be, without any FOC swapping.

Sasori wrote:I'm curious what peoples view on the GK would be, without any FOC swapping.

I don't think FOC swapping is even close to people's main problem with the codex.

pretre wrote:

Sasori wrote:I'm curious what peoples view on the GK would be, without any FOC swapping.

I don't think FOC swapping is even close to people's main problem with the codex.

No? I hear boo on elites as troops more then the standard troops.

pretre wrote:

Sasori wrote:I'm curious what peoples view on the GK would be, without any FOC swapping.

I don't think FOC swapping is even close to people's main problem with the codex.

Paladins, Purifiers, and Henchmen sticking to the Elites slot would go a long way in balancing the codex.

pretre wrote:

Sasori wrote:I'm curious what peoples view on the GK would be, without any FOC swapping.

I don't think FOC swapping is even close to people's main problem with the codex.

Really? It seems like a lot of people are of the opinion that Strike Squads aren't very good, and generally take one of the FoC swapping HQ's to change out his troops to Either Purifiers and Draigowing.

So, I'm curious that if people were stuck with GK Terminators and Strike squads as their only Troop Choices, if people would lessen their complaints. Not being able to take Purifiers/Paladins as troops would likely change the entire Dynamic of the GK codex, and peoples viewpoint with it.

Subject: Grey Knights are the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade. Alert a mod to a rule-breaking
post - reason:



Someone's gotta be the most powerful faction. Might as well be the GK. Nyah.

MightyGodzilla wrote:Someone's gotta be the most powerful faction. Might as well be the GK. Nyah.

Thanks for your earthshaking insight!

You're welcome. In 4 months and 8 months and 12 months, etc, etc someone will be making the same points about a different faction, so I thought I'd just state the obvious. And it's a valid point. Someone's always gonna be on top. So why not GK. What the thread should derail into is which army deserves to be on top...cuz there's no equality. That's just an ideal.

Sasori wrote:I'm curious what peoples view on the GK would be, without any FOC swapping.

They wouldn't be nearly as potent composition wise though their undercosting on key units and some of the over the top rules (lookin' at you fortitude) would still put them slightly over the top against the average of codexes in 40k.


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MightyGodzilla wrote:You're welcome. In 4 months and 8 months and 12 months, etc, etc someone will be making the same points about a different faction, so I thought I'd just state the obvious. And it's a valid point. Someone's always gonna be on top. So why not GK. What the thread should derail into is which army deserves to be on top...cuz there's no equality. That's just an ideal.

So long as the power trend is curving upwards then there will always be a "most powerful codex ever produced". DE and BA got skipped and the power baton has gone from orks to IG to Space Wolves to GKs. Without the presence of mech guard to tamp down tourney pairings it's likely GKs would be the kind of dominant that was implied at the start of this thread. IGvGK is a very tough matchup for GKs in a lot of situations. It looks like necrons are having the power baton passed over their head as well as they don't slot particularly well into the current meta.

Shuma, you are rediculous.

Why in god's name would a space wolves player leave 30 grey hunters waiting to be charged.

The reality of that situation is this:

LR + 10 DCA + Libby = 600 ish points

They will charge and absolutely mangle (if they get to charge and the land raider isn't destroyed first) one marine squad, lets say it's a 10 man to make you feel better, even though most people run 5 mans, which are cheap and disposable.

You kill 150-200 points.

You're now in the open, with models that are t3 with a 5+ invul. You get shot to absolute bits, and your landraider which brought you in for the charge, gets melta'd into oblivion.

Congratulations. You just traded 600+ points for 200.

You can't view these units in a void where you say things like "DCA's kill 1.77 marines per thats 5 times what a GH does". They're two completely different units, with different roles, and different strengths and weaknesses. DCA are just an assault based glass cannon, that type of unit has existed before (howling banshees, for example).

I've played and won multiple GT's, and I'll say this: I'm currently playing my GK for a change of pace and because I'm enjoying painting them, but hands down, my IG is a better army. And I don't run leafblower/stationary IG either. With my GK, I walk into tourneys knowing I have many weaknesses my IG didnt, which were very well rounded and strong against pretty much everything (imo). I know that if I run into a good wolves, IG, BA player, I'm in at best an even match. And I cringe when I see land raiders.

The thing is, if grey knights are built to rock/paper/scissor a certain army or build, they leave themselves very open to others. My list is "well rounded", or as much as it can be imo, and I have two big holes: deepstrikers, land raiders, and mass-jump BA with devs. Every army has weaknesses, and GK are no exception to that. In fact in my experience, they're even more susceptible to it.

targetawg wrote:Shuma, you are rediculous.

This whole thread is fething ridiculous. I can't even pick a side since everyone in here has done something in some way to annoy the gak out of me, lol. Especially you Augustus and your gak-talking about Dark Eldar earlier...you've made a powerful enemy this day!

I think Shuma is right and you all should feel bad. Even Shuma! I already do feel bad having read every page of this bitchfest so I'm exempt.


Also, I still can't figure out why an expensive unit being able to kill a substantially cheaper unit is a bad thing or indicative of horrible game balance.

In the last decade there have been far more Overpowered books than Grey knights. 3.5 CSMs, Orks circa 2008, Eldar circa 05-07 you know, the unbeatable 4th ed Mechdar? GK are not Mechdar or the Nob Biker Orks of yesteryear and they come no where near the unbalanced game play of the 3.5 CSM or 2nd ed Tyranids.

A decade is ten years, a decade is not the span of 5th edition. Even then I would have to say IG/SW were the most unbalancing books in 5th ed, but still not the last DECADE.

That's it, the thread is completely out of control at this point so I will leave it be now.

Grey Knights are not overpowered, I play them regularly with my space wolves and the only army that has beaten me was cotaez's death cult assasin spam.

OverwatchCNC wrote:In the last decade there have been far more Overpowered books than Grey knights. 3.5 CSMs, Orks circa 2008, Eldar circa 05-07 you know, the unbeatable 4th ed Mechdar? GK are not Mechdar or the Nob Biker Orks of yesteryear and they come no where near the unbalanced game play of the 3.5 CSM or 2nd ed Tyranids.

A decade is ten years, a decade is not the span of 5th edition. Even then I would have to say IG/SW were the most unbalancing books in 5th ed, but still not the last DECADE.

That's it, the thread is completely out of control at this point so I will leave it be now.

Yeah, this thread is garbage... OverwatchCNC is on the money. A decade is a long time and 3rd edition was pretty broken and had some massive imbalances and some crazy overpowered armies.

Now a case can be made for 5th edition which is basically 2-3 years, but with 6th edition around the corner less than 12 months out it sounds and pretty much these being 6th edition codexes, this doesn't strike me as a 'OMFGOVERPOWERED' because I suspect we will see some core rule changes which will 'change' things. And even now, it isn't that bad.

targetawg--Andrew? You think your IG are better than your GK? I remember something different lol.

A LR, Coteaz, and 10 Deathcult is not a prohibitive investment. Landraiders have a vaild place in the metagame, as you even have said, without considering the transported unit. Coteaz is an unbelievably good HQ for the points, as in completely worthwhile without needing to make henchmen troops. 10 Deathcult is only 150 points, and given the opportunity to assault 30 greyhunters, they gladly will.

The way I see it, you have a landraider (great metagame unit) coteaz (great HQ, great metagame unit) and deathcult (best opportunity assault unit in the game).

Whats the issue again?

My answer is quite simple. Are the GK overpowered? To me, I'll have to say yes in this case. Am I afraid of all of the most common of the power lists?

Nope and the reason is that within all Codex's there are inherent weaknesses that can be exploited by those pros that have been at this game for so long. I know their weaknesses and I can exploit them.

Anyone can play an "uber" list, but not everyone can play it correctly.

DevianID wrote:targetawg--Andrew? You think your IG are better than your GK? I remember something different lol.

A LR, Coteaz, and 10 Deathcult is not a prohibitive investment. Landraiders have a vaild place in the metagame, as you even have said, without considering the transported unit. Coteaz is an unbelievably good HQ for the points, as in completely worthwhile without needing to make henchmen troops. 10 Deathcult is only 150 points, and given the opportunity to assault 30 greyhunters, they gladly will.

The way I see it, you have a landraider (great metagame unit) coteaz (great HQ, great metagame unit) and deathcult (best opportunity assault unit in the game).

Whats the issue again?

Heya!

Talking strictly "ability to win games" and yea, I'm settled at this point on my IG being better. While the GK bring some lovely tricks to the table and can be stronger in particular matchups, my IG were much more well rounded. I didn't have matchups that I just loathed, like I do with GK's. The other part of that is that it's prohibitively expensive to put "tricks" into the GK army, and the only source is basically the grandmaster. By tricks i mean outflank and similar abilities that affect how you can deploy/react/etc.

And although 10 DCA will gladly assault 30 GH, that situation will never arise unless your opponent is pretty terrible. The reality is more that you'll assault one unit, and be left out to be shot to bits. I'm not saying at all that GK are bad, just that they arent omgzorz broken op'd like the thread states. I don't even think they're the strongest book atm, they're just top 3. YMMV of course, but thats my opinion on em.

Overwatch CNC has it right... GK may be the best put out in 5th ed currently... but they are far from the best EVER in 10 years...

BUT... i disagree with you Andrew.. It just so happens you're a great IG player!

frgsinwntr wrote:Overwatch CNC has it right... GK may be the best put out in 5th ed currently... but they are far from the best EVER in 10 years...

BUT... i disagree with you Andrew.. It just so happens you're a great IG player!

Blah, maybe I'm just a truly mediocre GK player. More and more I consider going back to my IG. Currently if I had to "rank" the top books purely based on the "best" list they can produce, my order would be:

Space Wolves
GK (I don't think they're much worse, but I do think SW edge them out)
IG/BA
DE

Necrons I think have the potential to shake up the top spots, but I just haven't seen enough of them yet.

And yea, in the last 10 years:

-4th Edition was ruled by Nidzilla with a side of tri-holo falcon eldar
-Chaos Lash was re-donculous in it's hayday

GKs are not the most OP dex out right now.

I think that title firmly belongs to the IG. A tank for every problem, an order for every situation.

Some people don't understand that strong recently updated armies like Grey Knights are beatable like an other army..I play Black Templars and they are 4th edition. I have never lost a single game to a Grey Knights player. I spend time making army lists that counter other armies. I also play guard and I've never lost to draigowing. You have to analyze the units that you face and find a counter to it. Find its weaknesses. For example: Storm Raven Gunship full of paladins were coming at me and I have two hydra flak tanks shooting right at it ignoring its cover save for being a skimmer. Shot the thing down on turn 2. Then I shot a medusa shot on the pallies. Direct hit and I waved goodbye to pallies as they were pulled off the board.

I believe that all codexes have their pros and cons, their strong units and their bad units. Grey Knights have great units and have an amazing codex. So people shouldn't hate on the army when their army is perfectly capable of facing and beating them.

Stormtrooper520 wrote:Some people don't understand that strong recently updated armies like Grey Knights are beatable like an other army..I play Black Templars and they are 4th edition. I have never lost a single game to a Grey Knights player. I spend time making army lists that counter other armies. I also play guard and I've never lost to draigowing. You have to analyze the units that you face and find a counter to it. Find its weaknesses. For example: Storm Raven Gunship full of paladins were coming at me and I have two hydra flak tanks shooting right at it ignoring its cover save for being a skimmer. Shot the thing down on turn 2. Then I shot a medusa shot on the pallies. Direct hit and I waved goodbye to pallies as they were pulled off the board.

Overpowered and unbalanced doesn't mean "unbeatable". It means they are only countered by things not readily avilable to most other armies, or have more efficiente versions of powerful tools. Not everyone has hydras to -reliably- pop skimmers and transports from range. In fact, the opposite is true.

I don't think GK are hideaouslt overpowered, but i do believe their basics are one degree higher than other codices, even recent ones, and that can cause them to lean on the weaknesses of other factions with greater force that doesn't necessarily comes from skill. It's in the game, but it can still grate on ya.

Just because you've never lost to Grey Knights with the folks over at your gaming club doesn't mean anything.

Grey Knights are without a doubt the strongest codex going right now. I don't think it's necessarily a problem with what they do, but rather their point costs aren't what they should be.

1- Cheap hq that yields amazing core troops that are undercosted for both the firepower they dish out and their fighting ability (looking at you purifiers).
2- Incredibly accurate anti-tank weaponry that's also heavily undercosted coupled with the ability to basically ignore shaken/stunned shouldn't be overlooked either, that yields them alot of mobility and firepower that isn't properly costed (looking at you dreads)

Take those two factors together and you have a recipe for a really strong list, especially when coupled with a great hammer unit that can score like termies.

GK are ridiculoulsy op right now and anyone saying they arent is just fooling yourself.

Sorry, hate to sound like a butthead, but really?
Really?

your 20 point basic grey knight comes with a storm bolter, a power weapon (and a force weapon at that) and has marine stats to boot.

my basic marine is 16 points per model.

i get a bolter. Additionally, you can add stuff to your squads if they number less than ten models. I can only upgrade my Sergeant model if the squad is less than ten models. oddly enough, your weapons, on the whole are just better than mine, and you get them for dirt cheap too.

don't even get me started on purifiers...having to take crow doesn't hurt your army at all, as it actually gives you a Cheaper HQ unit, and purifiers, decked out, are just a few more points than strike squads, because of the HUGE disparity in the cost of upgrades.

i wont get into the whole terminator thing, or the rest of that codex, i guess really that it doesn't do any good to talk about it.

the codex is stupid powerful. if you think so you will agree with what i said, if you dont, then you will bring up grey hunters or blood angels razorback spam and say their the best. i guess its all in what you like...

i will say this though....someone earlier stated that we should try switching armies to play the GK army, that way we get a taste of what they dont do well.

i did that...actually...i am painting my friends GK army and i play it. its actually pretty scary. i have a tough time winning and more often than not loose with my vanilla marines. i play his GK, and i haven't lost with them yet, and i have played only a few games with them.

for me, to not loose, just by switching the army, thats really saying something, because i suck at warhammer,
but that army is so powerful that it completely made up for any mistakes i made and just tore my opponent up with just vastly superior troops that break the power curve so badly that it makes humpty dumpty look like he has it together.

so yeah, sorry, the whole switching the army thing doesn't work for me. i did that. it sent in the opposite direction that you wanted it too.

they are broken as hell. that's life. we will have to deal with grey knights for a long time from now, until they re-balance. they arent unbeatable, they are just stupid powerful.

but its ok, b/c grey knights are just so much more expensive right?

your 20 point basic grey knight comes with a storm bolter, a power weapon (and a force weapon at that) and has marine stats to boot.

my basic marine is 16 points per model.

which is a fair cost. That's a 25% increase. See point cost calculator below.

Additionally, you can add stuff to your squads if they number less than ten models.

And everything we have is short ranged.

I can only upgrade my Sergeant model if the squad is less than ten models

That's just an outright lie!

oddly enough, your weapons, on the whole are just better than mine, and you get them for dirt cheap too.

Another outright lie, See point cost calculator. if every Grey knight model was A 2 then yeah, you'd have a point but they aren't. They're expensive and their equipment shows it.

don't even get me started on purifiers...having to take crow doesn't hurt your army at all, as it actually gives you a Cheaper HQ unit, and purifiers, decked out, are just a few more points than strike squads, because of the HUGE disparity in the cost of upgrades.

Boldface lie. The typical strike squad with rhino comes out to around 300, the typical purifier squad is about 250 for a half squad or 350 for a full squad in rhino. 5 points extra PER MODEL, which ironically enough, guess what, that's how much they are.

for me, to not loose, just by switching the army, thats really saying something, because i suck at warhammer,

or maybe they're just more to your style? Ever think about that?

if anything makes Grey Knights OP it's psycannons and psydreads, and psycannons are short range. Terminators, maybe but everyone can do that now and their weapons are just different not better.

They might be a little OP but they are not ridiculously OP, Learn to deal, every new army takes a learning curve, stay out of CC with them and out of the range of the psycannons.

Stormtrooper520 wrote:Some people don't understand that strong recently updated armies like Grey Knights are beatable like an other army..I play Black Templars and they are 4th edition. I have never lost a single game to a Grey Knights player. I spend time making army lists that counter other armies.

Way to invalidate your own point.
Any codex out there can make a list to specifically counter any other codex. It's not that difficult. But competitive environments such as tournaments don't usually allow for people to do so between games so we have to compare balance based on all-comers lists, which, to be honest GKs happen to have a very strong selection which holds off very well in this.

Sc077y wrote:GK are ridiculoulsy op right now and anyone saying they arent is just fooling yourself.

"Ridiculously", "aren't", and no, they're not, but we'll continue with your analysis.

your 20 point basic grey knight comes with a storm bolter, a power weapon (and a force weapon at that) and has marine stats to boot.

my basic marine is 16 points per model.

i get a bolter. Additionally, you can add stuff to your squads if they number less than ten models. I can only upgrade my Sergeant model if the squad is less than ten models. oddly enough, your weapons, on the whole are just better than mine, and you get them for dirt cheap too.

See "opportunity cost". They can't take those things off, even if they wanted to. Without special character voodoo, there's no individual troop model cheaper than 20 points. Comparing to standard marines isn't really an even assessment, because Tacs (which everyone universally already admits are lackluster) get access to reduced cost plasma/melta AND reduced cost long range firing. GK get psycannons. The lack of AP1/2 is the balancing factor. Even force weapons aren't all that amazing when you only have one attack per model and the same weapon skill as anything that you would really need the force weapons to affect. Again, you require special character voodoo to fill a void in the army.

don't even get me started on purifiers...having to take crow doesn't hurt your army at all, as it actually gives you a Cheaper HQ unit, and purifiers, decked out, are just a few more points than strike squads, because of the HUGE disparity in the cost of upgrades.

His name is Crowe. As far as your argument, well, I must admit I don't really understand where you're coming from. He's really not that good, and he uses up an HQ slot. Having a cheaper HQ unit that can't do anything is not a good thing. As far as purifiers being cheaper, they still don't have relentless psycannons, and they are 20% more expensive than ordinary strikes, and their roles are confused between being more shooty, but being better at assault (despite making them more shooty worsening their melee capabilities). You're paying as much as you would for Sternguard, if not more, and you get no AP 1/2/3, and you have to take a bad HQ.

i wont get into the whole terminator thing, or the rest of that codex, i guess really that it doesn't do any good to talk about it.

Why not? Compare these terminators (even paladins) to Deathwing. I think Deathwing wins out most times because they can get storm shields and CMLs.

the codex is stupid powerful. if you think so you will agree with what i said, if you dont, then you will bring up grey hunters or blood angels razorback spam and say their the best. i guess its all in what you like...

Those aren't the best either. The best is what you're so comfortable with that you can bring the hardest game you know how to play. This is why Dash wins with Xenos armies people complain about as being underpowered. This is why Stelek still uses his puppies. The army is not as important as the player. In the case of GK, you've got players who had been previously WINNING in 5th edition with DH, of all the things. GK play very similarly. As someone (I think it was Grey Templar) said, a good DH player will be an amazing GK player now that the new codex is out.

i will say this though....someone earlier stated that we should try switching armies to play the GK army, that way we get a taste of what they dont do well.

i did that...actually...i am painting my friends GK army and i play it. its actually pretty scary. i have a tough time winning and more often than not loose with my vanilla marines. i play his GK, and i haven't lost with them yet, and i have played only a few games with them.

for me, to not loose, just by switching the army, thats really saying something, because i suck at warhammer,
but that army is so powerful that it completely made up for any mistakes i made and just tore my opponent up with just vastly superior troops that break the power curve so badly that it makes humpty dumpty look like he has it together.

"Lose", not "loose". Your pants are "loose". Your army is not. I had my roommate who was concerned about GK power levels play with them a few times against other people (and myself). He now sees things from my point of view. Further, another friend (who's played against me since when I was still playing DH) was flipping out about GK. He's a good player. I let him use my army, warned him I was going to play 'Nids, and then proceeded to slaughter him with them. Of course, now he thinks that Nids are overpowered, but that's a different story altogether. At the end of the day, I beat someone of my same approximate skill level who was using the "best" codex when I was using the "worst".

At any rate, the plural of anecdote is not data, so both your story and my story are rather meaningless at this point.

so yeah, sorry, the whole switching the army thing doesn't work for me. i did that. it sent in the opposite direction that you wanted it too.

they are broken as hell. that's life. we will have to deal with grey knights for a long time from now, until they re-balance. they arent unbeatable, they are just stupid powerful.

but its ok, b/c grey knights are just so much more expensive right?

See, you almost had the right attitude going on there. Griping and moaning isn't going to make them go away, developing a counter to them is. It's what everyone did when IG, SW, and BA came out. It's what I'll do when I start seeing Necrons. It's what we'll all do when the next army comes out.


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DarkStarSabre wrote:

Stormtrooper520 wrote:Some people don't understand that strong recently updated armies like Grey Knights are beatable like an other army..I play Black Templars and they are 4th edition. I have never lost a single game to a Grey Knights player. I spend time making army lists that counter other armies.

Way to invalidate your own point.
Any codex out there can make a list to specifically counter any other codex. It's not that difficult. But competitive environments such as tournaments don't usually allow for people to do so between games so we have to compare balance based on all-comers lists, which, to be honest GKs happen to have a very strong selection which holds off very well in this.

To be fair, most people do that. Do you bring a considerable amount of AP3? Congratulations, you just brought a list designed to counter MEQ. Do you also include a lot of melta? Congratulations, you also built a list to counter vehicle spam.

I mean, tailoring to counter one specific list isn't viable against unknown opponents and is generally a disservice to both, yourself and your opponent, but everyone "tailors to the meta."

(I cringed a bit when I typed that, but it's true.)

Good article on 3++ about this very topic:

http://www.3plusplus.net/2011/12/beating-army-grey-knights.html

I HATE INQUISTITION they just sit around and shoot psycannons every where and when that doesn't work they whine and destroy the planet justifying by saying they didn't let us win...

That is a solid read. Does a much better job of saying the things I was trying to.

Sc077y wrote:GK are ridiculoulsy op right now and anyone saying they arent is just fooling yourself...
your 20 point basic grey knight comes with a storm bolter, a power weapon (and a force weapon at that) and has marine stats to boot....
the codex is stupid powerful. if you think so you will agree with what i said, if you dont, then you will bring up grey hunters or blood angels razorback spam and say their the best. i guess its all in what you like......
they are broken as hell. that's life. we will have to deal with grey knights for a long time from now, until they re-balance. they aren't unbeatable, they are just stupid powerful.

Best statements of the thread, that's truth right there, well said!

I'd like to see someone who claims that their "disadvantages" just haven't been found yet and people will figure it out, please tell us....

What are the Grey Knight Disadvantages?

(because I don't know any)

Augustus wrote:
What are the Grey Knight Disadvantages?

(because I don't know any)

Apparantly, small numbers.

But if you read the 3++ post it blatantly points out they are by far the best all-rounders out there.
And to be honest, their numerical disadvantage really doesn't compare when my CSMs have a similar numerical disadvantage and none of the actual advantages....

Lack of AP2/3?

I don't mind GK because they are just MEQ/TEQ that cost more. They die just the same as marines and each one that dies hurts so much more for my opponent.

There are two people I play quite regularly (of about my standard of play) who have very different opinions on my Paladin list. One plays the rather unfancied Chaos Marines. He hasn't adjusted his list to beat me, just adapted his tactics. We now tend to run very close in games won:lost against each other. The other plays Mechanised Imperial Guard and has an excellent track record with them in competitions. He has tweaked his list several times (not tailoring exactly, he still makes an all-comers list) but hasn't altered his tactics. He's never beaten me.

Whine less and up your game.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

Augustus wrote:
What are the Grey Knight Disadvantages?

(because I don't know any)

Apparantly, small numbers.

But if you read the 3++ post it blatantly points out they are by far the best all-rounders out there.
And to be honest, their numerical disadvantage really doesn't compare when my CSMs have a similar numerical disadvantage and none of the actual advantages....

- Mostly medium range shooting.
- No AP 1/2/3 unless you take particular HQs.
- More expensive basic guys.
- 'Confused' (generalist) units.

Comparing CSM to GK would be like comparing DH to BA. Anyone in their right mind would say, "Well, yes, you're comparing in incredibly out of date codex to the really shiny one that just came out. It's not in line with the current edition's rules and meta".

Very valid point.

For the record though Rending falls into the AP 1/2/3 category. Sure, it's not reliably but GKs can get a fair amount of rending thrown in.

Plus the fact every bugger has a power weapon by default (a force weapon even!) helps that flaw considerably.

Medium range shooting seems to be the same territory as Necrons and SoBs, however your generalist nature definately shines.

And in the competitive scene where fixed lists are required? A solid general all-rounder list is diamonds.

I'm now on a Cold One.

(We need sarcasm smilies.)

The other thing is that different GK lists have different disadvantages, which tends to confuse the issue somewhat.

The force weapons are a boon and burden because 1 you can perils and kill your own guys or have eldar/hood shut those down all game long. In competitive play those are more common and even more so since people are anticipating gk showing up. I honestly think the armies popularity is its own downfall. Those storm raven perils missies are horrid to have hit your small squad of gk. Psyk out grenades can make your entire squad go last and get shredded regardless of halberds and quicksilver. Those are a few things anyway that cause me to think that right now their own popularity is their biggest weakness. Plus stuff like Draigo gets misplayed a lot because new players don't remember stuff like brotherhood of psykers, psyk out, how wound allocation works, daemonbane, that in most squads cn use hh OR nfw not both, etc.

Rock hard assault troops of just about every stripe capable of engaging hordes and elite troops with roughly equal ease and decent shooting to boot? Check.

Excellent firepower at all ranges via enhanced stormbolters, powerful flame weapons, psycannons, riflemen dreads, razorbacks, etc? Check.

Supposedly low numbers disadvantage countered by incredibly flexible and min/maxable henchmen squads? Check.

ability to spam lots of medium vehicles? Check.

Incredible psychic powers and psychic defense? Check.

Best deathstar unit in the game? Check.

Incredible mobility? Check.

Nigh unshakeable/unstunnable vehicles? Check.

Weaknesses?

Vaktathi wrote:Rock hard assault troops of just about every stripe capable of engaging hordes and elite troops with roughly equal ease and decent shooting to boot? Check.

Excellent firepower at all ranges via enhanced stormbolters, powerful flame weapons, psycannons, riflemen dreads, razorbacks, etc? Check.

Supposedly low numbers disadvantage countered by incredibly flexible and min/maxable henchmen squads? Check.

ability to spam lots of medium vehicles? Check.

Incredible psychic powers and psychic defense? Check.

Best deathstar unit in the game? Check.

Incredible mobility? Check.

Nigh unshakeable/unstunnable vehicles? Check.

Weaknesses?

Build me a list with all these things in it please.

Artemo wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Rock hard assault troops of just about every stripe capable of engaging hordes and elite troops with roughly equal ease and decent shooting to boot? Check.

Excellent firepower at all ranges via enhanced stormbolters, powerful flame weapons, psycannons, riflemen dreads, razorbacks, etc? Check.

Supposedly low numbers disadvantage countered by incredibly flexible and min/maxable henchmen squads? Check.

ability to spam lots of medium vehicles? Check.

Incredible psychic powers and psychic defense? Check.

Best deathstar unit in the game? Check.

Incredible mobility? Check.

Nigh unshakeable/unstunnable vehicles? Check.

Weaknesses?

Build me a list with all these things in it please.

You don't need all of it to make a ridiculous list.

That said, you can fit in 6 squads of tri-melta coteaz henchemen in chimeras and 3 psyrifleman dreads along with 2 squads of purifiers in razorbacks and a 5man wound allocation gimmicked paladin squad in a stormraven in a 2000pt list.

Lots of firepower, a dozen medium AV tanks, a deathstar unit, excellent CC troops, min/max'd scoring spam units, some solid psychic powers and psychic defense, highly mobile, and half the vehicles are nigh immune to shaken/stunned results.

Thta doesnt have more firepower then tournament ig lists or sw lists..

Vaktathi wrote:That said, you can fit in 6 squads of tri-melta coteaz henchemen in chimeras and 3 psyrifleman dreads along with 2 squads of purifiers in razorbacks and a 5man wound allocation gimmicked paladin squad in a stormraven in a 2000pt list.

Lots of firepower, a dozen medium AV tanks, a deathstar unit, excellent CC troops, min/max'd scoring spam units, some solid psychic powers and psychic defense, highly mobile, and half the vehicles are nigh immune to shaken/stunned results.

That list doesn't sound very terrifying. You have very fragile troops in Chimeras, 3 Psyflemen for your long range and 2 Squads of Purifiers for Mid/CC. I don't really see the Gimmicky Paladin squad getting near anything, but that's nasty. Seems like a 2k SW or guard list would be a lot nastier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And there's the problem. You can do all those things in one GK list, but as with many things you sacrifice the ability to do somethings very well with the ability to do many things halfway decent.

It was basically a list I came up with off the top of my head between calls when asked to include everything in a list.

However, as stated, you don't need all of it, the fact that it's all accessible is the issue. Armies that can literally do everything, do some of it better than anyone else, are poor examples of game balance. And that's the thing with GK's, there's no style of play or avenue of attack that is denied them, they can do it all. They can gunline tankspam, they can mechanized assault, they can deathstar, they psychic-powerbomb, etc and often do all or most of it at the same time.

SW's have many of the same issues, albeit in some different ways.

What are the Grey Knight Disadvantages?

Generally short range, Low model count, still just 3+ T 4.

Stay away from combat and blast them You'll find that casualties hurt them worse than marines. Take care of the psy dreds first, Rinse repeat.

gendoikari87 wrote:

What are the Grey Knight Disadvantages?

Generally short range, Low model count, still just 3+ T 4.

Stay away from combat and blast them You'll find that casualties hurt them worse than marines. Take care of the psy dreds first, Rinse repeat.

This is a really good summary and has worked well for me in the past. Especially hilarious when you're playing something like orks. My biker orks just sit at 16-17" and dakkadakka.

Vaktathi wrote:It was basically a list I came up with off the top of my head between calls when asked to include everything in a list.

However, as stated, you don't need all of it, the fact that it's all accessible is the issue. Armies that can literally do everything, do some of it better than anyone else, are poor examples of game balance. And that's the thing with GK's, there's no style of play or avenue of attack that is denied them, they can do it all. They can gunline tankspam, they can mechanized assault, they can deathstar, they psychic-powerbomb, etc and often do all or most of it at the same time.

SW's have many of the same issues, albeit in some different ways.

I just built your list. I must have assumed upgrades differently, because I didn't have enough points to psyammo the razorbacks, and the purifiers lack daemonhammers.

So, in this list, we have:

1 Support HQ. Coteaz is basically just a utility knife you keep around afterwards to make a bubble of scariness. He's bad to take into melee, and he's lackluster in shooting attacks.

2 Shooty Elites. Without a hammer, the purifiers can easily get munched by a walker/MC. With SotW, even TMC have a decent chance of not getting gibbed by the force weapons. Genestealers would still eat them anyway, if only you could get the can open first.

1 Deathstar. Well, it's a deathstar that has a 5+ invul to instakill by shooting. Over 500 points with its ride.If they leave the bird while the opponent's heavy guns are still up, then they need to stay in melee each round otherwise they're going to get cut to pieces. Honestly, I might still be more afraid of SS/TH Termies. Or Deathwing.

6 Meltavet squads. At 2/3 the price. Did we mention that they're only BS3, have ZERO ablative wounds, and are only Ld7?

1 Fast Skimmer Transport. Weapons are less insane than the BA variant, but you'll have a harder time stopping it for a round. Probably priority number one.

3 Overhyped Long Fangs squads.

In other words:

Outflank protection bubble
Assault protection bubble
12 force weapons
6 psycannons
9 storm bolters
8 heavy bolters (2 are twin-linked)
18 (BS3) meltas
6 twinlinked S8 autocannons
Twin linked multimelta and lascannon

I'm still not very scared, to be honest.

Look at this:

CCS - 4 plasmas, plasma pistol, melta bombs, carapace armor, astropath, chimera

Storm Troopers - 2 plasmaguns

Meltavets - chimera
Meltavets - chimera
Meltavets - chimera
Meltavets - chimera
Meltavets - chimera

Vendetta
Vendetta
Vendetta

Demolisher
Demolisher
Manticore

For a total of

6 plasmaguns
15 (BS4) meltaguns
9 (twin-linked) lascannons
2 S10 large blasts
9 heavy bolters
Manticore missile launcher

This is actually a pretty standard 'all corners' list for me, except I might take a couple powerblobs and HWS, because I'm not hyper-competitive when I don't have to be. I think this list would wipe the floor with the aforementioned GK list. You can't outshoot it, and you can't get close to it. If you don't get first turn as the GK player, you're in serious trouble. Granted, you could say something similar about the IG list, but it at least has other options for entry. The GK list you mentioned starts at your end of the board and ends when one of the two of us is wiped out.

Once again, lost in all of the butthurt internet hyperbole, is the simple fact that GKs have not won nearly as many events (or more importantly best general awards) as either IG or SW. Hell, using win/loss as a metric they fall short of DE, despite more people playing them. So a full year after the end of the world known as the GK release, SW and IG are still dominating... but GK are the most OP book ever? Derp.

Also, don't compare strike squads to tacticals. Compare them to GKs or BA assault squads. Oh boy, ten GK Strike Squad guys are better than 10 SM Tacs. Well, duh, they cost a lot more and do not even bring melta to the table. Straw mans all around on that one. No one thinks Tactical Marines are competitive compared to the other SM books, so thats not a worthwhile comparison at all.

Any day now, the OPness that is GK will rock the tournament scene and then you'll see... YOU'LL ALL SEE!!! hahahahahaha

Yeah...

A friend of mine has just started playing a GK army, and another has had his for years.

The Newbie - Bought all the new Models,. Dreadknight, Chibihawk, Corteaz etc. Thinks that a full army of Grey Knight Termies is the way to go. I stomp him.

The Vet - Has about 60 PAGK. Fields the 100 Point hero guy(I don't have the Codex @ work sorry). so thats basically 1300 points in just troops with 1 HQ, and no Fluff (U/grades etc). We fight down to the wire usually.

If you basically field them as Vanilla marines - they are nice. Force weapons have thier hazards though. Hard to beat - yes - impossible to beat - no frakking way.

And I play Vanilla Marines.

GK's do have a weakness of small numbers and (to the Xeno players) over-hyped Marine toughness. Hammerhand and Force Weapons aren't that impressive when Hormagaunts, Genestealers, and Boyz slam into them head first. Even Tau armies are rather unfased by them, considering they can Marker away cover saves and increase their BS. Heck, I've never held such high regards for Stealth Suits until I killed an entire Grey Knight squad in a round of shooting. And Crisis Suits? Hah! We already gets insta-gibbed by strength 8 and come in shoals of three, your Force Weapons mean nothing to us!

But I digress. Grey Knights are only scary to other Space Marine players (which is about 50-60% of the players anyway), so I really don't see the big issue here (aside from me being a Xenos).

Its all a matter of perspective. Grey Knights seem overpowered because you let them bother you.

Any day now, the OPness that is GK will rock the tournament scene and then you'll see... YOU'LL ALL SEE!!! hahahahahaha

Yeah...

Wait for it..... Waiit for it... waiiiiiiiiiiit foooooor iiiiiiiitt.... Wait.... almost there... Wait for it...

Augustus wrote:I'd like to see someone who claims that their "disadvantages" just haven't been found yet and people will figure it out, please tell us....

What are the Grey Knight Disadvantages?

(because I don't know any)

daedalus wrote:- Mostly medium range shooting.

Psyflmen, end of discussion

daedalus wrote:- No AP 1/2/3 unless you take particular HQs.

How about psychic gunships and machine spirit? or... rending, power weapons, volume of fire, irrelevant

daedalus wrote:- More expensive basic guys.

4 points over a regular marine gets you a S5 storm bolter, psychic powers, and a force weapon? and that's a disad?

daedalus wrote:- 'Confused' (generalist) units.

What?

Vaktathi wrote:Rock hard assault troops of just about every stripe capable of engaging hordes and elite troops with roughly equal ease and decent shooting to boot? Check.

Excellent firepower at all ranges via enhanced stormbolters, powerful flame weapons, psycannons, riflemen dreads, razorbacks, etc? Check.

Supposedly low numbers disadvantage countered by incredibly flexible and min/maxable henchmen squads? Check.

ability to spam lots of medium vehicles? Check.

Incredible psychic powers and psychic defense? Check.

Best deathstar unit in the game? Check.

Incredible mobility? Check.

Nigh unshakeable/unstunnable vehicles? Check.

Weaknesses?

Still waiting.
(They have nothing. Especially Petre.)

Uh to get str 5 storm bolters you have to pay 20 pts. Thats not a standard storm bolter.

Psyfleman are cheap for their cost but not that good compared to sw, ig, tau etc ranged fire.

Psychic doesnt mean much when there is gloom prism, eldar anti psyker, hoods, shadow in the warp etc.

At least as far as tournaments since everyone expects psykers from many of the top tier armies etc.

As fas as the confused pt its because things like purifiers have cleansing flame but arent ideal for cc since they are typically 5-7 squads in power armor.

You can't treat them like an assault squad. You have to treat them like vanimlla guys and wait for their moment on a weaken squad etc.

Why do you compare them to a regualr marine? There is no regular. You can't even compare a tac marine to gh or ba assault guys who ARE the same cost.

Draigo wrote:

Psyfleman are cheap for their cost but not that good compared to sw, ig, tau etc ranged fire.

In an anti-light/medium AT role? They're superior to the much (deservedly) maligned Vendettas and Long Fangs in terms of engaging AV11/12 tanks, they can move and fire to full effect, you can't stop them from shooting short of killing them or blowing off guns, and they provide solid psychic defense.

What was that about not that good?

Psychic doesnt mean much when there is gloom prism, eldar anti psyker, hoods, shadow in the warp etc.

Many of those are highly situational (lol SitW). Additionally, many armies in the game lack such wargear/special rules entirely or almost so (IG, Tau, DE, Orks, Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Necrons, etc). So for the most part, it's other Marine armies, Eldar, and sometimes Tyranids.

As fas as the confused pt its because things like purifiers have cleansing flame but arent ideal for cc since they are typically 5-7 squads in power armor.

2 attacks each with force weapons and an ability that hits every opposing model before blows are struck isn't good in CC? Yeah, their model count may be low, but 7 dudes blasting away with stormbolters at a full 30 strong ork mob and following it with a charge+cleansing flame will utterly annihilate it with enough dudes left over to go at it again and functionally break another mob.

So after reading several pages of this thread, I have to ask (sorta rhetorically) "What's the point of this discussion?"

Since nobody is preventing players from refusing a regular pick-up game, and this thread is in the Tournament Discussions forum, I have to assume that the point here is to get Grey Knights banned from tournaments. However, unless I'm mistaken, I don't see anyone really arguing that TO's need to ban Grey Knights. (I don't stop by Tourney Discussions very often, so if you're all TOs then by all means, continue debating).

If the Grey Knight detractors aren't here to get Grey Knights banned, then this entire topic is just a bunch of empty whining. GW isn't going to show up and change things arbitrarily, especially since Grey Knights are a really good source of cash-flow for them.

It's all well and good to debate whether the army is actually too powerful, but the argument has been going in circles for awhile now (even outside this thread). It doesn't look like there's a single new piece of evidence being introduced here. It's the same old points being rehashed over and over by both sides.

If you really think the army is so broken that seeing them across the table ruins your fun, then refuse to play against them. Nobody is stopping you in casual play. If your problem is facing them in tourneys, work with TO's to get them banned or learn to beat them. Otherwise, this entire thread is pointless.

/2cents

You kill a dread with one shot.. vs 3 5 man lf squads you have to hit more then with one good las shot.

Well then wouldnt that point out a flaw that others need psychic defense? I mean isnt that the same issue when JoTWW and blood lance came out as well?

Assuming a full squad gets to close combat sure but thats a best case scenario. I mean armies seem capable to blow up rhinos and then proceed to shoot them just like any other marine.

Draigo wrote:You kill a dread with one shot.. vs 3 5 man lf squads you have to hit more then with one good las shot.

How is that different from *any* vehicle? At the same time, the Rifleman isn't going to care much about scatterlasers, heavy bolters, splinter weapons, etc thrown it's way where the long fangs will. The long fangs are a bit hardier on the whole and can split fire but more static, the rifleman dread is a bit more effective against a single target and more mobile while providing psychic defense. They're both silly, and to try and pass the psyrifleman off as patently worse is even sillier.

Well then wouldnt that point out a flaw that others need psychic defense? I mean isnt that the same issue when JoTWW and blood lance came out as well?

It really has never been a major issue until the newest marine codecies started in on some rather ridiculous psychic powers.

Assuming a full squad gets to close combat sure but thats a best case scenario. I mean armies seem capable to blow up rhinos and then proceed to shoot them just like any other marine.

Yes, that's true, that doesn't mean they can't be abusive however, especially considering the fact that all you need is a single purifier to make it into contact with a big squad of orks or gaunts or what have you to kill damn near half the unit without even needing to swing.

No whats silly is a guard player saying other vehicles are silly.. IG has been the kings of silly cheap vehicles and had no rival till possibly the furioso dread. Vendettas are just as corny and sport more firepower.

No? You don't think Eldar powers or Lash never were an issue? Really?

Well it's hard to defend cleansing flame since I am not a fan of it from the perspective that I think it's silly and out of place on a weaker cc ish unit. I liked the puriifiers more for the psycannon spam.

Xca|iber wrote:
It's all well and good to debate whether the army is actually too powerful, but the argument has been going in circles for awhile now (even outside this thread). It doesn't look like there's a single new piece of evidence being introduced here. It's the same old points being rehashed over and over by both sides.

Yeah, I was kind of feeling that with my reply earlier. I'm through at this point, at least until this topic rolls a 4+ to reincarnate yet again 14 days from now.

Draigo wrote:No whats silly is a guard player saying other vehicles are silly.

I have playable armies of IG, Chaos Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Eldar and Tau, what of it?

If the only refutation of my argument is "well you play IG!", well, I think my point's been made.

IG has been the kings of silly cheap vehicles and had no rival till possibly the furioso dread.

That's sorta their thing. Notice the almost total lack of CC capability, especially elite CC shock troops, psychic defense, or ridiculously crazy psychic powers (one might make a case for the PBS morale ability, but you've got to not only be able to get the power off but then also hit the enemy hard enough cause a morale test so the reduced Ld means something, and given how many Fearless things are in the game...)

Vendettas are just as corny and sport more firepower.

I do seem to remember having mentioned the Vendetta just a few posts above...

however they're in an army that pretty much just does heavy weapon shooting spam, not an army that can pack in a bunch of elite CC troops, crazy henchmen units, assault transports, vehicle psychic powers that make shake/stun results almost entirely ignorable for basically 5pts, and combat walkers on top of their heavy weapon spam.

No? You don't think Eldar powers or Lash never were an issue? Really?

Eldar? Not really. The 4E skimmer rules and Holofields? A thousand times yes, but their psychic powers being a humongous balance issue? not really, especially considering how much the army relies on them to function with T3 4+sv units that cost as much as Space Marines. Lash, sure if you're not playing a mechanized list, but that army also can't muster the same sort of power in other areas that the newer marine books can on top of that psychic power.

Well it's hard to defend cleansing flame since I am not a fan of it from the perspective that I think it's silly and out of place on a weaker cc ish unit. I liked the puriifiers more for the psycannon spam.

which isn't much better, up to 8 BS4 S7 AP4 Rending shots for 20pts is also a wee bit silly.

Augustus wrote:(They have nothing. Especially Petre.)

2 things.
1.) PRETRE. There's an R in there.
2.) I haven't even posted anything in days other than a link to 3++. What's your major malfunction?




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Secondly, I'll come back to the point that has been made again and again and no one has refuted.

You are all giving us reasons why GK are broken IN THEORY. So IN PRACTICE why are they not dominating the tournament scene? Oh yeah, because they aren't broken.

Holy crap there are some seriously butthurt people in this thread. A four shot S8 AV12 platform is really that game breaking? How did you people ever survive long fangs and hydras?

Seriously, though some of you guys (particularly Augustus) come off sounding like frothing at the mouth tinfoil hat wearing loonies. I mean, I don't like army imbalance either, but the ALL of the non-anecdotal evidence still points towards SK and IG being the top dogs. I know I am far more fearful of facing Wolves that I ever am taking on GKs, personally.

No one ever said SW weren't over-powered, just that GK also are. Long Fangs are still ridiculously stupid for their points. Hydras, however, are only S7.

Just do a base comparison between tac marines and either GKSS (or Grey Hunters), and it's not hard to see that tac marines get the short end of the stick. A stormbolter and power weapon, plus hammerhand, for 4 points is nuts.

Compare GK termies with Marine termies. The Gks get a better selection of CC weapons, psychic power, cheaper and/or better heavy weapons. A psycannon is cheaper than an assault cannon for SM terminators? An incernator, at +1s, is the same price as a heavy flamer?

In a game that's basic design calls for two armies of equal points to be a fair match, it's clear that GK are simply better than their equivalent space marines. But, it's GW, so par for the course really.

Redbeard wrote:
In a game that's basic design calls for two armies of equal points to be a fair match, it's clear that GK are simply better than their equivalent space marines. But, it's GW, so par for the course really.

You can't compare choices between codexes unless you compare the whole codex. C: SM has longer range and better LR firepower, along with different choices (and a ton of melta).

Not saying that 40k is super balanced, but comparing choices between codexes just isn't going to work.

It's a decent starting point for discussion though.

Da Boss wrote:It's a decent starting point for discussion though.

/shrug Sure... Part of the balancing act of codexes is the whole picture of the codex.

Most SM codexes were designed with this idea that they give something up in order to get something else. Whether what they gave up is worth what they got is often the point of contention. Because of this design philosophy, it is difficult to compare codexes unless you compare everything they have to everything that the other codex has. C: SM has reliable prolific melta; C: GK doesn't. C: SM can do a highly mobile, highly durable biker army. C: GK cannot do highly mobile unless they go mech. Etc.

So theoretically... GK get cheaper close range fire power, NFW, etc because they are shafted in the melta, long range and mobility departments along with higher points costs and lower model counts. Whether that balances or not is the subject of debate.

The only "problem" with the GK is it is powerful and relatively cheap to build an all-comers list. That is leading to its popularity. You can build competitive lists with other armies but you are going to be spending significantly more to build them.

As far as GK dominating in Hard Boys as far as popularity, it stands to reason. They are hard pressed at 1500 to get resiliency and numbers. It is going to get easy to get flexibility and numbers out there for 2500.

DAaddict wrote:As far as GK dominating in Hard Boys as far as popularity, it stands to reason. They are hard pressed at 1500 to get resiliency and numbers. It is going to get easy to get flexibility and numbers out there for 2500.

Too bad they didn't dominate in finals.

Phazael wrote:Holy crap there are some seriously butthurt people in this thread. A four shot S8 AV12 platform is really that game breaking?

A mobile platform with that sort of firepower for its cost, plus its ability to ignore stunned/shaken results, plus excellent anti-psyker defense, and ability to be taken en-masse at almost any points level, yeah, it's a wee bit silly.

How did you people ever survive long fangs and hydras?

You'll notice that Long Fangs get just as many complaints. Hydras are BS3 and S7 and can't move and fire very effectively.

C: SM has longer range and better LR firepower, along with different choices (and a ton of melta).

GK's don't exactly lack for melta weaponry, they've got Dreads, stormravens, henchmen, Land Raiders, karamazov, etc. they can't take it in every single unit, but they've got plenty of options to take it if they want it. As for long range firepower, again, they aren't lacking for it too much between the above units plus razorbacks/chimeras.

pretre wrote:
You can't compare choices between codexes unless you compare the whole codex.

Yes you can. I just did.

C: SM has longer range and better LR firepower, along with different choices (and a ton of melta).

If the SM player took longer-range choices.

Not saying that 40k is super balanced, but comparing choices between codexes just isn't going to work.

This is what GW designers want you to think. This is what they believe will excuse their shoddy design work. And it's untrue. You most definitely can compare choices between codexes. In fact, it's a good idea.

The basic tenet of the game is that if we both spend the same number of points, we'll have a fair game. That's right there in the rulebook, in the roman number pages. It doesn't say, you'll have a fair game if you take choices with longer range, it says if you take the same number of points.

This is a legal 500 point space marine army:

1 captain w/ power sword (115)
10 tacticals, Sgt w/ powerfist, man with flamer, man with heavy bolter. (195)
10 Tactical, sgt w/ power weapon, man w/ melta, man w/ missile. (190)

This is a legal 500 point GK army:
Brotherhood Champion (100)
10 GKSS (200)
10 GKSS (200)

Why can't I compare these? And, do you think that, given the deployments in the book missions, that the one missile and one heavy bolter are going to have more of an effect than the GKs getting twice the shots at the 24" range?

The GKs outshoot the tacticals at the ranges that matter. They also out-fight the tacticals. They also out-maneuver the tacticals, as the tacs need to remain still to bring their guns to bear, while the knights can keep moving wherever they need to, whether that's towards an objective, towards, or away, from their opponent, or simply to get cover.

The idea that you should not, or cannot, compare choices between codexes is ludicrous, and it is a poor excuse for bad design. You say 'well, your army can make up its deficiencies in other slots' - well, what if I don't take the other slots. Or, perhaps worse, what if those other slots get such an advantage that I don't even take the units to be compared. Ever wonder why some choices in every codex end up as trash and others are spammed? It's due to poor design. It's due to GW designers not taking the time to make these comparisons themselves.

In terms of troops, the comparisons between codexes are even more relevant. They're not something you can avoid. And the codexes with poor troop options are often consigned to the designation of 'bad army', or 'uncompetitive'. Troops need to be able to do certain things. They need to not roll over in a stiff breeze. They need to be able to get to objectives when it matters. They need to be generalists, ideally with some anti-mech as well as some anti-infantry. They often need to be able to affect the game while simultaneously holding objectives.

Comparing the troops from one codex to the troops from another is one of the first steps a competitive player will take when evaluating whether they want to play the army. You have to have them. Which ones are good, which ones are crap. Which ones can you avoid entirely with tricky force-org manipulation. And, when you look at which codexes are still considered top, or even mid tier, it's those with quality troops that can do all of the above. The codexes that cannot do this suffer.

You know that there's something wrong with a codex when competitive players say their basic troops (strikes) suck, and yet it's easy to demonstrate that their basic troop is still better than those found in other codexes. If that's not a sign that a book is overpowered, I don't know what is.

Vaktathi wrote:Hydras are BS3 and S7 and can't move and fire very effectively.

Hydras don't need to move.

GK's don't exactly lack for melta weaponry, they've got Dreads, stormravens, henchmen, Land Raiders, karamazov, etc. they can't take it in every single unit, but they've got plenty of options to take it if they want it. As for long range firepower, again, they aren't lacking for it too much between the above units plus razorbacks/chimeras.

Dreads? But I thought OMG Psyflemen!!!
Stormravens? 200+ points for twin-linked multimelta. Check.
Henchmen? BS3 and LD7 is not reliable. Notice I said reliable. Also requires a special character.
Land Raiders? 200+ points for twin-linked multimelta. Check.
Karamazov? Lol.

Long range firepower?
Psyflemen. Check.
Heavy bolter backs. Kinda check. S6 is okay.
Multilasers (requires Inquisitor). Again with the strength six. Check
Lascannon Type Razorbacks. Check.

Now compare that to an army with missile launchers in Fast, Troops, Heavy and Elites that can also get the Lascannon Razorbacks, plus other long range nastiness. GK have less long range firepower and less reliable, more expensive and less available melta.



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Redbeard wrote:This is a legal 500 point space marine army:

1 captain w/ power sword (115)
10 tacticals, Sgt w/ powerfist, man with flamer, man with heavy bolter. (195)
10 Tactical, sgt w/ power weapon, man w/ melta, man w/ missile. (190)

This is a legal 500 point GK army:
Brotherhood Champion (100)
10 GKSS (200)
10 GKSS (200)

That is a bad 500 point SM army. Granted it is also a bad GK army though. Yeah, the GK will probably win that one. How about making two lists that don't stink though? (and 500 points is a horrible point value for balance). At 500, I'd probably go scouts, libby and land speeders or somesuch rather than tacs. As for GK, I'd go SS and Razorbacks with Brochamp.


And I disagree with your basic premise of comparing just the entries. Comparing lists is much better.

pretre wrote:
Hydras don't need to move.

Ever ever? Wish my Hydras knew that. Nothing ever sits where they don't have LoS or gets into a position to threaten the hydras and necessitates their movement, or plays Dawn of War, or anything like that, that of course never happens.

Dreads? But I thought OMG Psyflemen!!!

O_o yes...psyrifleman, zomg you can also give them various forms of melta weaponry if you feel you need it.

Stormravens? 200+ points for twin-linked multimelta. Check.

It's there, it's a fairly often utilized unit, yes it's very much an option.

Henchmen? BS3 and LD7 is not reliable. Notice I said reliable. Also requires a special character.

BS3 but you can take 3 of them, that's plenty reliable, moreso in fact than the much desired BA/CSM double-melta. Nobody cares about Ld7 when you're sitting in a Chimera and can take higher Ld models in the unit. The SC is only required to make them spammable troops, and is a steal of an SC.

Land Raiders? 200+ points for twin-linked multimelta. Check.

See Stormraven.

Karamazov? Lol.

Again, he's there.


Melta is there if you want/need it, often on units that are already being taken.

Long range firepower?
Psyflemen. Check.
Heavy bolter backs. Kinda check. S6 is okay.
Multilasers (requires Inquisitor). Again with the strength six. Check
Lascannon Type Razorbacks. Check.

Now compare that to an army with missile launchers in Fast, Troops, Heavy and Elites that can also get the Lascannon Razorbacks, plus other long range nastiness. GK have less long range firepower and less reliable, more expensive and less available melta.

heavy weapons in C:SM troops units are relatively rarely utilized and the units make for rather expensive HW platforms, most would gladly swap for double-special. GK's can take razorbacks in tons of units. The big thing is not having spammable missile platforms in FA.

And again. If the codex is so broken, where are the results of this brokenness?


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Vaktathi wrote:Melta is there if you want/need it, often on units that are already being taken.

You're missing the point. I didn't say it wasn't there. I said C:SM gets it cheaper, easier and more reliably.

heavy weapons in C:SM troops units are relatively rarely utilized and the units make for rather expensive HW platforms, most would gladly swap for double-special. GK's can take razorbacks in tons of units. The big thing is not having spammable missile platforms in FA.

Again, you're missing the point. C:SM gets it cheaper, easier, in more FOC slots and more reliably than GK does.

This thread has inspired me to break out my old Squat models and use them as Grey Knights. After all, they are using Squat technology in their armies anyway so I might as well.

But considering I've never lost to a Grey Knight army and I play Eldar, I don't see where the "Grey Knights are overpowered!" nonsense is coming from.

If they were so overpowered, wouldn't they be able to kill my Eldar army easily considering I'm using an old 4th edition codex? I mean seriously...they should be stomping on all the older codexes and they arent. That tells me it's just an over reaction by some players.

Roadkill Zombie wrote: I mean seriously...they should be stomping on all the older codexes and they arent. That tells me it's just an over reaction by some players.

This has been brought up repeatedly and no one has been able to show any evidence that GK are Op other than comparing what they have available to other codexes. Empirical evidence has been pretty thin.

I find that line of reasoning funny. If someone doesn't like that their codex doesn't have the shiny new toys of a different codex, then change to the one that has the shiny new toys and quit complaining about it.

But don't expect every army to have the same toys, that would be a pretty boring game.