ThePorcupine wrote:
Imperial guard (me) vs primaris marines - win for guard
imperial guard (me) vs death guard - win for guard
imperial guard (me) vs sisters of battle - loss for guard
imperial guard (me) vs sisters of battle - loss for guard
imperial guard (me) vs imperial guard - loss for guard (me)

I keep trying to make armored company work. It doesn't. Tanks get a max 1 turn of firing before competent armies lock them in combat and make them 100% useless.

2 squads of lasgun wielding basic infantry. 90ish points for two extra turns of safe shooting while the enemy carves through them. You can make it a couple conscript squads and watch you entire list go unmolested as the other player freaks out and attempts to destroy this phantom threat they've heard about.

I don't see how you'd beat Sisters/Ministorum with Genestealer Cults. 12" twin-heavy flamer razorback equivalents firing overwatch, all with invulnerable saves, and a scout move. I don't play GSC so I could be off base here, but how would you overcome this? You can make 1 of those vehicles not fire overwatch, yes, but then the other 4-5 are going to just toast your face off.
Anyway.

Casual games @ 2000 points. (Casual means i don't bring storm ravens, imperial knights, Celestine, or other nasty things).

Grey Knights vs Tau - Grey Knights victory.

Was a tough game. Opponent underestimated charging through ruins and deep striking to charge without line of sight (a new 8th rule). He made a few tactical errors, things like drone position, allowed me to smite them off the board to soften his models for bigger guns. Bunched up some stuff and ate 7 hits from a vortex of doom. He still killed a lot of GK though - including a land raider, razorback, and some strike squads. He deployed some stuff into cover, but astral aim doesn't care. He shot a lot off of the board, though.

Grey Knights vs Blood Angels - Grey Knights victory

He seized the initiative (argh!) and I lost over 500 points the first turn. First-to-the-fray GMNDK slaughtered 2 quad-las predators and a baal predator, and I was able to shoot down his raven with no dedicated anti-air. Rolling 6's to hit with a degraded Lazorback really helped, too. He made some tactical errors and he invested far too many points into death company.

 Marmatag wrote:
I don't see how you'd beat Sisters/Ministorum with Genestealer Cults. 12" twin-heavy flamer razorback equivalents firing overwatch, all with invulnerable saves, and a scout move. I don't play GSC so I could be off base here, but how would you overcome this? You can make 1 of those vehicles not fire overwatch, yes, but then the other 4-5 are going to just toast your face off.
Anyway.

Casual games @ 2000 points. (Casual means i don't bring storm ravens, imperial knights, Celestine, or other nasty things).

Grey Knights vs Tau - Grey Knights victory.

Was a tough game. Opponent underestimated charging through ruins and deep striking to charge without line of sight (a new 8th rule). He made a few tactical errors, things like drone position, allowed me to smite them off the board to soften his models for bigger guns. Bunched up some stuff and ate 7 hits from a vortex of doom. He still killed a lot of GK though - including a land raider, razorback, and some strike squads. He deployed some stuff into cover, but astral aim doesn't care. He shot a lot off of the board, though.

Grey Knights vs Blood Angels - Grey Knights victory

He seized the initiative (argh!) and I lost over 500 points the first turn. First-to-the-fray GMNDK slaughtered 2 quad-las predators and a baal predator, and I was able to shoot down his raven with no dedicated anti-air. Rolling 6's to hit with a degraded Lazorback really helped, too. He made some tactical errors and he invested far too many points into death company.

Lead the charge with a Trygon, the Immolator can't hurt aTrygon.

Also, they only do 2d6 hits, which is nothing anyway if you're a squad of 20 'stealers.

Because all the 'stealers are in hiding in reserve, they can't be shot at until after they arrived. First opportunity to engage is when firing overwatch. Anything with <9" range is useless, and anything that isn't a flamer might as well not exist. Sure, a Meltagun may cook a Genestealer, but as yourself: do you really care? You have 20 of them. And even 2d6 isn't particularly consequential, since it'll cook about 4 on average. Then you charge and blow the tank up, pretty straightforward stuff.


Overwatch is basically a non-factor. It's easy to completely shut down in the first place, and it doesn't tend to do any real damage even if you don't. Only Flamers are worth anything in Overwatch, and they've been carefully calibrated to ensure that they're completely worthless as well in the task.


Anything that keeps it's heavy hitters in reserve counters immo-dominions, because Dominions aren't exactly tough, and they have to get out of their tanks to fight.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Imperial guard (me) vs primaris marines - win for guard
imperial guard (me) vs death guard - win for guard
imperial guard (me) vs sisters of battle - loss for guard
imperial guard (me) vs sisters of battle - loss for guard
imperial guard (me) vs imperial guard - loss for guard (me)

I keep trying to make armored company work. It doesn't. Tanks get a max 1 turn of firing before competent armies lock them in combat and make them 100% useless.

Screen your tanks. 100 Conscripts is a pretty decent number.

You don't want too many, but you don't want too few. Too many and you end up lean on firepower, too few and they don't make an adequate barricade. I wouldn't go less than about 70 bodies, and wouldn't go more than about 150.

Yeah, just 12" twin heavy flamers on tanks, with Celestine backing them up... that's nasty. I'll get to see that game this weekend, hopefully. I know a guy who is bringing a competitive sisters list to the next RTT.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Imperial guard (me) vs primaris marines - win for guard
imperial guard (me) vs death guard - win for guard
imperial guard (me) vs sisters of battle - loss for guard
imperial guard (me) vs sisters of battle - loss for guard
imperial guard (me) vs imperial guard - loss for guard (me)

I keep trying to make armored company work. It doesn't. Tanks get a max 1 turn of firing before competent armies lock them in combat and make them 100% useless.

Screen your tanks. 100 Conscripts is a pretty decent number.

You don't want too many, but you don't want too few. Too many and you end up lean on firepower, too few and they don't make an adequate barricade. I wouldn't go less than about 70 bodies, and wouldn't go more than about 150.

1. I don't own that many infantry models. I could do maybe 60 or 70? I'll have to recount. And then I usually field Pask +2 tank commanders, a bunch of manticores, maybe some hellhounds.
2. Kinda defeats the purpose of armored company having that much infantry.

I tried having 4 naked infantry squads set up in front of my tanks, but sisters don't care. Celestine and the seraphim flew over my screen turn 1, melta'd my tanks, and locked in combat with whatever survived. And the rest of the army just bolstered down what infantry I had. 4 infantry clearly not enough? Maybe. But at that point I think it's cleared armored company doesn't work.

 Marmatag wrote:
Yeah, just 12" twin heavy flamers on tanks, with Celestine backing them up... that's nasty. I'll get to see that game this weekend, hopefully. I know a guy who is bringing a competitive sisters list to the next RTT.

Eh, not really. 12" HF doesn't do anything. It's not high enough AP to kill marines, and it's not enough shots to kill 'gaunts or 'stealers, it's at most a minor inconvenience. Well, it's infinitely more dangerous than an 8" range HF, because a potential to do anything is higher than being out of range, but it's not really going to be doing much.

I'd say to keep in mind that the Immolator is without a doubt worse than a Razorback. It does what it needs to do good enough though.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Yeah, just 12" twin heavy flamers on tanks, with Celestine backing them up... that's nasty. I'll get to see that game this weekend, hopefully. I know a guy who is bringing a competitive sisters list to the next RTT.

Eh, not really. 12" HF doesn't do anything. It's not high enough AP to kill marines, and it's not enough shots to kill 'gaunts or 'stealers, it's at most a minor inconvenience. Well, it's infinitely more dangerous than an 8" range HF, because a potential to do anything is higher than being out of range, but it's not really going to be doing much.

I'd say to keep in mind that the Immolator is without a doubt worse than a Razorback. It does what it needs to do good enough though.

How have they worked for you in the ITC format, with maelstrom + eternal war? Have you been doing well in tournaments? I feel like the scout move, the invuln, and the 12" flamer are solid. So do the competitive guys running them that I speak with.

ThePorcupine wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Imperial guard (me) vs primaris marines - win for guard
imperial guard (me) vs death guard - win for guard
imperial guard (me) vs sisters of battle - loss for guard
imperial guard (me) vs sisters of battle - loss for guard
imperial guard (me) vs imperial guard - loss for guard (me)

I keep trying to make armored company work. It doesn't. Tanks get a max 1 turn of firing before competent armies lock them in combat and make them 100% useless.

Screen your tanks. 100 Conscripts is a pretty decent number.

You don't want too many, but you don't want too few. Too many and you end up lean on firepower, too few and they don't make an adequate barricade. I wouldn't go less than about 70 bodies, and wouldn't go more than about 150.

1. I don't own that many infantry models. I could do maybe 60 or 70? I'll have to recount. And then I usually field Pask +2 tank commanders, a bunch of manticores, maybe some hellhounds.
2. Kinda defeats the purpose of armored company having that much infantry.

I tried having 4 naked infantry squads set up in front of my tanks, but sisters don't care. Celestine and the seraphim flew over my screen turn 1, melta'd my tanks, and locked in combat with whatever survived. And the rest of the army just bolstered down what infantry I had. 4 infantry clearly not enough? Maybe. But at that point I think it's cleared armored company doesn't work.

4 naked infantry squads is a waste of points. Don't use infantry if you're not buying them a Heavy or Special Weapon, because Conscripts do the same "absorb bullets" thing for 1 point less per model. Since the infantry only gets to fire in overwatch and won't live long enough for more than a handful to fight back in melee, at best, the inferior Conscript BS doesn't matter.


As far as not getting locked up by Celestine and Seraphim, set your tanks back behind your infantry. The first rank of guys is set 4.5" in front of the second rank, which is as far in front of the tanks as they can be, and disperse along the back line.


Tanks don't work without infantry support. However, they never did, so that doesn't change anything.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Armored Company". If you're referring to an IG list based around Leman Russes, it's viable, but strictly inferior to an IG list based around Manticores. The mathematics are left as an exercise for the reader, but shouldn't be hard to figure out. If you're referring to a list that contain no infantry, well, that was never viable. It was funny, but it's always been really easy to beat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Yeah, just 12" twin heavy flamers on tanks, with Celestine backing them up... that's nasty. I'll get to see that game this weekend, hopefully. I know a guy who is bringing a competitive sisters list to the next RTT.

Eh, not really. 12" HF doesn't do anything. It's not high enough AP to kill marines, and it's not enough shots to kill 'gaunts or 'stealers, it's at most a minor inconvenience. Well, it's infinitely more dangerous than an 8" range HF, because a potential to do anything is higher than being out of range, but it's not really going to be doing much.

I'd say to keep in mind that the Immolator is without a doubt worse than a Razorback. It does what it needs to do good enough though.

How have they worked for you in the ITC format, with maelstrom + eternal war? Have you been doing well in tournaments? I feel like the scout move, the invuln, and the 12" flamer are solid. So do the competitive guys running them that I speak with.

Well, very well, however, the local league uses standard format [and, as mentioned isn't very good.] I play in the local league, but I haven't played in any tournaments yet since the edition dropped, and am unlikely to be in any major ones at all. That would require tournaments to be held near me at a time that I can make it, since travel [or at least frequent travel] is off the table for me.

But they're good because they give Dominions 9 extra inches of movement, and serve as a layer of armor between the Dominions and the enemy if you don't have first turn. Also, having the crappy gun options is better than having no gun options, so while I'd rather have a pair of lascannons or a pair of assault cannons than a pair of multimeltas or a pair of heavy flamers, it's better to have a pair of multimeltas or a pair of heavy flamers than it is to have a storm bolter. Yes?

It works, and mech dominions is strong, but there's nothing particularly special about Immolators compared to Razorbacks. It's not like HF Razorbacks would be all the rage if they had 12" range Heavy Flamers, because Assault Cannon Razorbacks are a thing. The scout move is a property of the Dominions, not the tank, and any transport for them gets it. Shield of Faith is a non-factor, since the 6+ itself is rarely taken and it's, well, a 6+.



Repressors are way better than Immolators. Repressors have 6 fire points, which allows the embarked Dominions to shoot without having to get out of the tank. A Repressor with 2 Heavy Flamers and a Storm Bolter is also about the same price as a similarly-loaded Immolator, and is cheaper with a Heavy Flamer and 2 Storm Bolters. The whole shooting from within the tank part is really, really good, since not getting out means less dying, and an overall improvement in the survivability of our force.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Armored Company". If you're referring to an IG list based around Leman Russes, it's viable, but strictly inferior to an IG list based around Manticores. The mathematics are left as an exercise for the reader, but shouldn't be hard to figure out. If you're referring to a list that contain no infantry, well, that was never viable. It was funny, but it's always been really easy to beat.

I guess what I mean is a vehicle-focused list without a lot of infantry. And I find it disconcerting that 70 infantry is considered a "minimum." I would consider mech vets to still be "armored company." And back in the day competitive lists WOULD only only have 4-6 squads of infantry riding around in chimera backed by some tanks/vendettas/artillery. Those lists wouldn't just be competitive. They'd win tournaments. Now I feel like if you're not running conscripts, you're laughed off the table. I think IG tanks/transports could use a lot of love.

I guess that's the point. Extra move, extra distance flamers... Unless you get unlucky in the map draw you're flaming things hard core turn 1.

The guy running Sisters might be flying out to LVO with that list. I think he has at least 5 of the flameboxes.

We'll see. I hope to play his list soon just to see what it does. I feel confident if i roll well that I could give that list problems. But again, that depends on me rolling well... which doesn't seem to happen lol.

ThePorcupine wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Armored Company". If you're referring to an IG list based around Leman Russes, it's viable, but strictly inferior to an IG list based around Manticores. The mathematics are left as an exercise for the reader, but shouldn't be hard to figure out. If you're referring to a list that contain no infantry, well, that was never viable. It was funny, but it's always been really easy to beat.

I guess what I mean is a vehicle-focused list without a lot of infantry. And I find it disconcerting that 70 infantry is considered a "minimum." I would consider mech vets to still be "armored company." And back in the day competitive lists WOULD only only have 4-6 squads of infantry riding around in chimera backed by some tanks/vendettas/artillery. Those lists wouldn't just be competitive. They'd win tournaments. Now I feel like if you're not running conscripts, you're laughed off the table. I think IG tanks/transports could use a lot of love.

Mechvets work, but Drop Scions are the same but better, for fairly obvious reasons.

Dark Eldar 8th Edition:

I've played 11 games so far with 7 wins and 4 losses.

1) DE vs. Chaos Marines: WINNER: Dark Eldar
2) DE vs. Tyranids: WINNER: Tyranids
3) DE vs. Chaos Marines: WINNER: Dark Eldar
4) DE & Necrons vs. A.M & Chaos: WINNER Dark Eldar & Necrons
5) DE vs. Tau: WINNER: Dark Eldar
6) De vs. Dark Angels: WINNER: Dark Eldar
7)DE vs. A.M.: WINNER Astra Militarum
8) DE vs Dark Angels: WINNER Dark Angels
9)DE vs Chaos: WINNER: Dark Eldar
10) DE vs Necrons: WINNER: Necrons
11) DE vs Tau. WINNER: Dark Eldar

Go go Dark Eldar!

 Marmatag wrote:
I guess that's the point. Extra move, extra distance flamers... Unless you get unlucky in the map draw you're flaming things hard core turn 1.

The guy running Sisters might be flying out to LVO with that list. I think he has at least 5 of the flameboxes.

We'll see. I hope to play his list soon just to see what it does. I feel confident if i roll well that I could give that list problems. But again, that depends on me rolling well... which doesn't seem to happen lol.

Flamers are crap anyway, and so are heavy flamers. They should be 3 points, at most, considering Storm Bolters are 2. You're worried about massed storm bolters and meltaguns moving into range on turn 1.


As far as voiding the benefit of the extra move, place as much as you can into deep-strike reserve. I can't shoot what isn't on the board. Also remember that the infantry is carrying 5 weapons, is T3, and loses a gun with every one of the 5 wounds lost, so shoot them first. Put something on the board they're going to want to unload the infantry to kill, then reserve as much else as you can. Destroy the infantry with the guns, then kill the tanks at your leisure. Locking the tanks in melee with something expendable is also a good way to get them out of your hair..

I really like flamers.

In my competitive list in its current iteration, I run 2 ravens, so my ability to be in reserve is somewhat diminished. I like to keep my drops at 6 so i can get the +1. So, not much in reserve.

I would charge those with a GMNDK or something, if I could just find a way to afford his 300 points price tag.

I feel confident my 2 ravens could pop a couple as well.

 Marmatag wrote:
I really like flamers.

In my competitive list in its current iteration, I run 2 ravens, so my ability to be in reserve is somewhat diminished. I like to keep my drops at 6 so i can get the +1. So, not much in reserve.

I would charge those with a GMNDK or something, if I could just find a way to afford his 300 points price tag.

I feel confident my 2 ravens could pop a couple as well.

I wouldn't be concerned about the tanks. Be concerned about the infantry, the infantry is very good. Once you've weakened the infantry, then deal with the tanks. We have to get out of the tanks to fight.

Of course, Repressors completely change the situation. Repressors allow us to not get out of the tanks while still shooting.

Also, the math of Storm Bolter vs. Flamer shows the two to be about in-line with each other at 8" of range, and of course the Storm Bolter can be fired at longer ranges. However, the Storm Bolter costs 2 points and the Flamer costs 9 points, so it's pretty straightfoward to see why the flamer, even if it seems pretty decent, is bad.

Generic Flamers - yes. I'm not worried about 0AP D6 STR4 hits.

Death guard vs Grey knights. Winner GK. New codex for both.
Death guard suck

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Flamers are crap anyway, and so are heavy flamers. They should be 3 points, at most, considering Storm Bolters are 2.

That's stormbolters that are too good. They should cost 4-5 pts for bs3+ models. At 2 they're just auto-include. And flamers are pretty decent. You guyz are just spoiled with undercosted op goodies.

 koooaei wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Flamers are crap anyway, and so are heavy flamers. They should be 3 points, at most, considering Storm Bolters are 2.

That's stormbolters that are too good. They should cost 4-5 pts for bs3+ models. At 2 they're just auto-include. And flamers are pretty decent. You guyz are just spoiled with undercosted op goodies.

Literally everybody who has them has storm bolters for 2 points. Chaos has Combi Bolters for 2 points.

2 points to make a Boltgun into Two Boltguns seems, well, fair, considering that all the combi-weapons are 2 points more than their non-combi counterparts.


I think a fair number of the weapon upgrade costs are rather high.
Heavy Bolters at 10 points are high as is, but Heavy Flamers should in no way be 17 points if Heavy Bolters are 10. Heavy Flamers should, at most, be 1 or 2 points more than a Heavy Bolter.
Twin Heavy Flamers should especially not be the same price as Twin Assault Cannons.
Multimeltas also cost more than Lascannons, because apparently that re-roll for damage at 1/4 of the range is worth more than +1 STR and 48" range.

 koooaei wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Flamers are crap anyway, and so are heavy flamers. They should be 3 points, at most, considering Storm Bolters are 2.

That's stormbolters that are too good. They should cost 4-5 pts for bs3+ models. At 2 they're just auto-include. And flamers are pretty decent. You guyz are just spoiled with undercosted op goodies.

This would further cripple Grey Knights pretty hard, our base power armored marine costs 19 points.

Orks have done better in major tournaments than Grey Knights.

The problem isn't the cost of storm bolters, its a problem with the cost of the models wielding them.

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
Death guard vs Grey knights. Winner GK. New codex for both.
Death guard suck

Death Guard codex didn't come out yet.

Yes I think storm bolters are fairly priced but all the other weapons are ridiculous.

Looking at the weapon costs for SOB I'm like "Well, I can get another Heavy Flamer which gives me d6 shots at 8", or two more battle sisters who give me 4 shots at 12" (the average on a D6 anyways) and 2 shots at 24"... derp"

the costs of heavy weapons are all out of whack this edition, it seems.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes I think storm bolters are fairly priced but all the other weapons are ridiculous.

Looking at the weapon costs for SOB I'm like "Well, I can get another Heavy Flamer which gives me d6 shots at 8", or two more battle sisters who give me 4 shots at 12" (the average on a D6 anyways) and 2 shots at 24"... derp"

the costs of heavy weapons are all out of whack this edition, it seems.

I'm sure i'll get flack for this, but that's more of a problem with the battle sisters being undercosted than the heavy flamer being overcosted.

In an example, an Incinerator is 14 points, a Strike Marine is 19 points. The cost of a model relative to its flamer in this case is 36% higher, not 200% cheaper.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes I think storm bolters are fairly priced but all the other weapons are ridiculous.

Looking at the weapon costs for SOB I'm like "Well, I can get another Heavy Flamer which gives me d6 shots at 8", or two more battle sisters who give me 4 shots at 12" (the average on a D6 anyways) and 2 shots at 24"... derp"

the costs of heavy weapons are all out of whack this edition, it seems.

I'm sure i'll get flack for this, but that's more of a problem with the battle sisters being undercosted than the heavy flamer being overcosted.

In an example, an Incinerator is 14 points, a Strike Marine is 19 points. The cost of a model relative to its flamer in this case is 36% higher, not 200% cheaper.

I don't think Sisters are underpriced.

They're 4PPM less than Marines, and lose:
1 WS (1 pt, probably)
1 T (1 pt, probably)
1 S (1 pt, probably)
1 Special rule of some kind (SoB have 2, SM tacticals have 3) (1 pt, probably)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes I think storm bolters are fairly priced but all the other weapons are ridiculous.

Looking at the weapon costs for SOB I'm like "Well, I can get another Heavy Flamer which gives me d6 shots at 8", or two more battle sisters who give me 4 shots at 12" (the average on a D6 anyways) and 2 shots at 24"... derp"

the costs of heavy weapons are all out of whack this edition, it seems.

I'm sure i'll get flack for this, but that's more of a problem with the battle sisters being undercosted than the heavy flamer being overcosted.

In an example, an Incinerator is 14 points, a Strike Marine is 19 points. The cost of a model relative to its flamer in this case is 36% higher, not 200% cheaper.

I don't think Sisters are underpriced.

They're 4PPM less than Marines, and lose:
1 WS (1 pt, probably)
1 T (1 pt, probably)
1 S (1 pt, probably)
1 Special rule of some kind (SoB have 2, SM tacticals have 3) (1 pt, probably)

I'm sorry - i misread your 4 shots at 12" to mean storm bolters. I was thinking of a different unit. You meant 2 rapid fire boltguns, i see that now.

I believe that the toughness is the primary driver of the price difference.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I don't think Sisters are underpriced.

They're 4PPM less than Marines, and lose:
1 WS (1 pt, probably)
1 T (1 pt, probably)
1 S (1 pt, probably)
1 Special rule of some kind (SoB have 2, SM tacticals have 3) (1 pt, probably)

And the Dominions (the ones that get to take more special non-heavy weapons) are 1PPM more than a typical battle sister and get the vanguard move out of the deal.

Which is the exact same ratio relative to battle sisters and space marines as previous editions.

That difference in points cost made them delicious in kill teams.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I don't think Sisters are underpriced.

They're 4PPM less than Marines, and lose:
1 WS (1 pt, probably)
1 T (1 pt, probably)
1 S (1 pt, probably)
1 Special rule of some kind (SoB have 2, SM tacticals have 3) (1 pt, probably)

And the Dominions (the ones that get to take more special non-heavy weapons) are 1PPM more than a typical battle sister and get the vanguard move out of the deal.

Which is the exact same ratio relative to battle sisters and space marines as previous editions.

That difference in points cost made them delicious in kill teams.

Yeah dominions gain a special rule and go up a point, so still with the "theme"...

And no worries, Marmatag, I just meant that heavy flamers for BSS are bupkis.

Also, the "shield of faith" rule barely even counts as a special rule. In the rare instances where you're nullifying a 3+ save entirely and getting that 6++ save, why is the enemy aiming those kinds of weapons at sisters? That's overkill anyway, and it barely even helps even in that situation. Then deny the witch on 1d6... any dedicated psyker is gonna do better than that both for casting and for resisting psychic powers.

+1ppm for that feels like a tax. Never heard of an instance in 8th edition where Shield of Faith mattered or the 6++ even came up in normal play to begin with.

A 3+/6++ statline for an infantry model is pretty silly. Doesn't Celestine improve that by 1 though? Or is it something else.

 Marmatag wrote:
A 3+/6++ statline for an infantry model is pretty silly. Doesn't Celestine improve that by 1 though? Or is it something else.

Not quite. They add 1 to their Shield of Faith rolls if they are within 6" of Celestine. However, Celestine actually benefits guard more than Sisters, because she gives Guard wtihin 6" of her a 6++ save which given their low armor to start with would protect them better than the 5++ save would protect sisters (go figure). In neither case is Celestine's Beacon of Faith buff useful, however-- in both cases, she's an assault-oriented, hyper-mobile unit in a very shooting-oriented army, and it's unlikely that you're going to have anything other than Seraphim within range to benefit from it.

And then, okay, fair enough I guess, but it's not exactly a game changer. Frankly, the 6++ save is a holdover from a previous edition when an AP3 or 2 weapon would nullify the 3+ save entirely, thus allowing Sisters to fall back on the 6++ invulnerable when hit by an AP3/2/1 weapon. Even then, it was really nothing special, and a lot of Sisters players simply forgot it existed because of how irrelevant it was.

 Marmatag wrote:
A 3+/6++ statline for an infantry model is pretty silly. Doesn't Celestine improve that by 1 though? Or is it something else.

The 6+ never happens, because almost nothing is AP-4. It's not nearly worth as much as it used to be, because you're no longer losing entire squads with no saves to Battle Cannons, and the only thing that makes them take it is a Meltagun. The Deny-The-Witch property doesn't work either, since, with the exception of Smite, any power that actually manifests is too high to actually deny.

Celestine buffs it to a 5+ for units within 6", which, I guess, is nice, but something I've actually forgotten to apply in literally every single game I've played. It's also still fairly uncommon, but more common than the 6+, at least, because every IG and SM player is loading mass plasma like to tomorrow. Plasma is hilariously undercosted. Overcharged, it averages almost the same output as a Meltagun, actually, so the whole not-exploding thing must be worth quite a lot.

I think Sisters and Sisters Dominions are fairly priced, at least compared to what's out there. Compared to Stormtroopers, we have better armor, but we don't have Deep Strike, and Bolters are more versatile but Hot-Shot Lasguns are better against infantry. Compared to tactical marines, we're lacking in weapon skill, strength, toughness, and upgrade potential. Dominions at the same cost as Tactical Marines get twice the ranged offensive output but worse survivability, and something like a ninth the CQC ability, which is huge because all our options are short-ranged. Having a good S and WS is worth a lot.


You say that Sisters are undercosted, hence the reason we don't want flamers, but fundamentally, playing SM, I'd take Storm Bolter Wolf Guard every day before I even touch a Combi-Flamer, and it goes without saying that I'm never going to pick a twin heavy flamer for my Razorbacks when, for 1 point more, I can have a Twin Assault Cannon, which has +1 STR, 3 times the range, and has twice as many shots on average, with the only disadvantage being that you have to roll to hit. And then, as Guard, I can get Plasmaguns for 7 points per model, why is anyone's name would I take a Flamer for the same cost?


I think the weapons costs are rather out-of-whack. Yes, flamers are fun to use and work well, but are they better than their ordinary non-incendiary cousins? No.

 Marmatag wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Flamers are crap anyway, and so are heavy flamers. They should be 3 points, at most, considering Storm Bolters are 2.

That's stormbolters that are too good. They should cost 4-5 pts for bs3+ models. At 2 they're just auto-include. And flamers are pretty decent. You guyz are just spoiled with undercosted op goodies.

This would further cripple Grey Knights pretty hard, our base power armored marine costs 19 points.

It's obvious gk strikers should go down to at least 17 pts base (or i'd prefer even lower) if sb go up.

SB is simply doubling the firepower of an infantry model that carries a bolter. And models that take it are allready ok at shooting. So, 2 pts is a really tiny price to pay for that and the arguement that "everybody pays 2 pts" is pretty odd. "Everybody payed ~300 pts for a wraithknight in 7-th".

derailed. Lets get back to it.

2 more games to report. The Marine armies all utilized their Codex, Orks of course used the Index.

Ultramarines vs Salamanders: Ultramarines win
-The Salamders are pure Razorback and infantry gun line.
-The Ultras are geared up for bike and vehicular assault.
-Mission was Emperor's Will, Ultras win via First Blood and Slay the Warlord

Orks vs Grey Knights: Grey Knights win
-Orks are a classic horde backed by lootas and tankbustas
-GK's are a Paladin Deathstar and GMDK backed up by a Raven and 3 Razorbacks with Strike Marines.
-Mission was Relic, GK's win by holding Relic and a near tabling, killing 150+ orks in 3 turns, losing a Razorback, a Paladin, 3 Strike Marines, and 9 wounds on the Raven.

Both winning armies had 1st turn.

Tau VS Tyranids. Tyranids Win.

Let me rephrase:

A 3+/6++ makes the 6++ almost completely superfluous on it's own, on infantry. However, in the presence of Celestine, having a 5++ on all your troops is solid. There's a lot of -3 weaponry out there, especially in melee. Invulnerable saves on vehicles is a whole different story, though, and not what i'm talking about here - invulns on vehicles are amazing.

You don't need a squad to win the fight if it's purpose isn't melee, you just need it to survive to retreat and force another round of combat, or hold the objective through the final game turn.

On my Purgation squads in GK, I take a nemesis warding stave on the sergeant, because with 4 special weapons, the last character doesn't even matter, because the squad is so melee-averse at that point, I just want to stop the bleeding before i bail out of combat.

And I agree that Celestine buffs guard infantry more than sisters infantry in regards to the + invuln. Just as Roboute Guilliman is better used to buff imperial guard gunlines than a pure Space Marines force.

Fate of Konor missions last week

GK v. Space Marine = GK loss
GK v. SoB = GK win

 Marmatag wrote:

And I agree that Celestine buffs guard infantry more than sisters infantry in regards to the + invuln. Just as Roboute Guilliman is better used to buff imperial guard gunlines than a pure Space Marines force.

Part of me wonders if that's utter and total oversight, or deliberate to maintain cross-selling of armies.

 Marmatag wrote:
Let me rephrase:

A 3+/6++ makes the 6++ almost completely superfluous on it's own, on infantry. However, in the presence of Celestine, having a 5++ on all your troops is solid. There's a lot of -3 weaponry out there, especially in melee. Invulnerable saves on vehicles is a whole different story, though, and not what i'm talking about here - invulns on vehicles are amazing.

You don't need a squad to win the fight if it's purpose isn't melee, you just need it to survive to retreat and force another round of combat, or hold the objective through the final game turn.

On my Purgation squads in GK, I take a nemesis warding stave on the sergeant, because with 4 special weapons, the last character doesn't even matter, because the squad is so melee-averse at that point, I just want to stop the bleeding before i bail out of combat.

And I agree that Celestine buffs guard infantry more than sisters infantry in regards to the + invuln. Just as Roboute Guilliman is better used to buff imperial guard gunlines than a pure Space Marines force.

Invul on vehicle doesn't happen either, because the tanks are all 3+. It only triggers against Meltaguns and a select few other weapons, which, from what I've seen, aren't very common, because they're overpriced. And then, of course, it only takes 2 or 3 fails for a Meltagun to obliterate a tank, so a 6+ really ain't worth anything. Actually, a 6+ save in pretty much any scenario might as well not be a thing.

As far as resisting combat... a squad in melee is dead. Unless it is sufficiently resilient to survive the initial round, and destructive enough to wipe out the aggressor even after losing a bunch of models, a squad that has been charged is a write-off, be it Guardsmen, Dominions, Tactical Marines, or Sternguard.

Now, Tactical Marines have the advantage of being able to charge into combat and expect something to happen, or at least not to get obliterated. Sisters of Battle cannot, because they fight like Guardsmen in close combat, and 4 shots on 6's at S4 is a much better chance to do damage than 1 shot on 4's at S3. Sisters of Battle, whether they charge or are charged, will die. Our inability to take melee is compounded by having extremely short-ranged guns.


WRT Celestine and Guilliman, everything any Imperial faction can do, IG does better. It's stupid like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

And I agree that Celestine buffs guard infantry more than sisters infantry in regards to the + invuln. Just as Roboute Guilliman is better used to buff imperial guard gunlines than a pure Space Marines force.

Part of me wonders if that's utter and total oversight, or deliberate to maintain cross-selling of armies.

I think it's deliberate.

I will disagree regarding invulns on vehicles. There are a lot of meta-armies out there that shred vehicles with -4. Reducing those casualties by 1/3 is a big deal.

On another note:

Grey Knights vs Dark Angels; Grey Knights major victory

This was a classic case of someone not really getting to play many games against GK. He hadn't seen our tricks. Also I rolled very well, getting 2 deep strike charges and a Celestine charge turn 1. I think he also underestimated Celestine, as I was able to kill his Commissar on the first turn with her. Azrael lost a duel to Draigo.

Celestine, because of her 24" move, is fantastic also when it comes to area and deep strike denial. You have a pretty reliable 28" charge radius with her. So putting her that far back from your opponent, you can protect your lines from deep strike. Every game she does amazing things for me. I will be ordering some sisters to along with my GK. I love the way they play as a compliment to my Gk.

Vortex is interesting. I wouldn't call it broken, but if your opponent doesn't plan for it, you can cause some hurt. I have yet to score an 11+ on it. If i do at the right time, it could be glorious.

1 victory, this week's Konor mission:

Astra Militarum Superheavy Tanks (3 Stormswords) vs Necrons (Monolith, Lychguard, Anrakyr, Triarch Stalkter, 20 warriors, 5 Immortals)

75 points

2nd Concordian Independent Superheavy Tank Regiment 4th Company was victorious.

2 games today.

Sisters verse codex ultramarine primaris. Sisters win.

Sisters verse Ynnari. Ynnari win.

2 2000 pt. games this week.

Space Wolves vs. Ultramarines-SW win
Space Wolves vs. AdMech-AM win

One 2000 point game.

Space wolves vs white scars (codex)= space wolves win.

Dark Eldar vs Death Guard - Death Guard win 6-5
SoB vs 1KSons - SoB win 18-6

My last three games:

Tyranids ate my Blood Angels

Blood Angels defeated an Imperial Soup (Sisters/Primaris/Custodes). Are we counting soup armies?

Orks defeated Blood Angels; this game was a technical draw, but the open war rules gave him the win because he used 2 power level less than me.

Chaos Space Marine victory over the Blood Angels.

Tabled him with my Brigade of Chaos!

4 games this week with my Imperial Guard.

Game 1: my Imperial Guard tabled Space Marines - IG win
Game 2: my Imperial Guard lost to my opponent's Imperial Guard - IG win
Game 3: my Imperial Guard got tabled by my opponent's World Eaters - WE win
Game 4: my Imperial Guard tabled Night Lords (Chaos Space Marines) - IG win

Tournament this weekend.

Guard vs orks- Guard won
Guard vs ad mech- Guard
Guard vs death watch- Guard
Guard vs ravenwing- raven wing ..sadface

2000 point tournament games I played in and/or watched

BA vs Eldar - BA
BA vs Tau - Tau
BA vs DA - DA
GK vs Daemons - GK
GK vs Ad-Mech - GK
GK vs Tau - Tau
DA vs Ad-Mech - DA
DA vs DA - DA
Eldar vs Eldar - Eldar

Tau Empire vs. Salamanders: Tau Victory.
Tau Empire vs. Tyranids: Tau Victory
Tau Empire vs. World Eaters: Chaos SpaceMarine Victory

Our group's results so far.

Tau versus Orks - Tau win
Space Marines versus Orks - Space Marines win
Astra Militarium versus Space Marines - Astra Militarium win
Eldar versus Space Marines - Eldar win
Astra Militarium versus Space Marines - Space Marines win
Adepta Sororitas versus Space Marines - Space Marines win
Necrons versus Adepta Sororitas - Necrons wins
Adepta Sororitas versus Space Marines - Space Marines win
Necrons versus Space Marines - Necrons wins
Astra Militarium versus Tau - Tau win
Space Marines versus Tau - Tau win
Tyranids versus Orks - Tyranids win
Astra Militarium versus Necrons - Necrons wins

All these battles have been without specific Codexes, just the initial books.

Cheers,

CB

So, played in an ITC event this weekend and lost at the final table. I'm just now done thinking through it, and processing it. In the final analysis, I threw the game. Bad dice rolls didn't help, and great dice rolls by my opponent hurt too, but ultimately it was my bad decision making that hurt me the most. Even with the rolls, I could have won this game had i played smarter.

Here are a few bad decisions i made.

1. Not leaving behind a 2/5 flamer purgation to gate my astral aim psilencer squad. I was never going to get those flamers in range, and being able to have 24 shots, instead of 6-12, would have been huge.

2. Charge sequences. I lost Celestine in overwatch, and 6 wounds on my GMNDK, who failed his charge (twice). I could have done a much better job with my charge sequencing and target selection, properly consuming greater good.

3. Target priority in shooting. The Y'varha is a disaster on 2 legs for me as Grey Knights. His nova-charged overwatch *expects* to deal 7 wounds to Kaldor Draigo, or any 3++ marine model really.

4. Command point usage. I spent far too many on the first turn trying to kill a few units, and taking a chance where I shouldn't. It didn't help that before my turn 1 he killed Celestine, and i failed the 2+ reanimate, forcing a command point early - which could have turned the game on the bottom of turn 2, when i failed a critical psychic power. But that's only one example. I spent points I didn't need to. I did spend my last point chasing a better melta roll (two 1's, for 1 damage? Command point! .... 2 damage).

Still getting better, still learning, don't hate losing, just hate making mistakes.

Sod, I've been on Holiday for a while now and have just got back: no computer so I haven't been able to do the data entry (not doing that on my phone ).

What I didn't realise is that 6 pages worth of results would go by whilst I was away... no one else happened to be keeping track while I was away?

(Must be 200 results to add to the OP D: )

Its good to be king. If just for a while.

 Jancoran wrote:
Its good to be king. If just for a while.

If I were a King I wouldn't be the one writing all this up.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Its good to be king. If just for a while.

If I were a King I wouldn't be the one writing all this up.

I am a bit surprised you haven't used an excel spreadsheet and just have it set so you can plug in results and it computers everything for you without having to do anything.

SemperMortis wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Its good to be king. If just for a while.

If I were a King I wouldn't be the one writing all this up.

I am a bit surprised you haven't used an excel spreadsheet and just have it set so you can plug in results and it computers everything for you without having to do anything.

Because I can't think ahead more than 5mins. Data entry isn't my forte and neither is planning.

IG vs Craftworld Eldar = IG victory

AM vs Tau : Tau victory

Saw a pair of those larger battlesuits wipe out a pair of pristine leman russ's in a single round of shooting. Damn things are powerful, especially the triple flamers the damn things were packing

 ChargerIIC wrote:
AM vs Tau : Tau victory

Saw a pair of those larger battlesuits wipe out a pair of pristine leman russ's in a single round of shooting. Damn things are powerful, especially the triple flamers the damn things were packing

Forgeworld BS. Why people defend forgeworld is beyond me. Back to our regularly scheduled program.

 Jancoran wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
AM vs Tau : Tau victory

Saw a pair of those larger battlesuits wipe out a pair of pristine leman russ's in a single round of shooting. Damn things are powerful, especially the triple flamers the damn things were packing

Forgeworld BS. Why people defend forgeworld is beyond me. Back to our regularly scheduled program.

I'm just going to chime in and say I agree. I hope anyone who likes Forgeworld faces 2 fire raptors and Azrael every game for the rest of their life.

 Jancoran wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
AM vs Tau : Tau victory

Saw a pair of those larger battlesuits wipe out a pair of pristine leman russ's in a single round of shooting. Damn things are powerful, especially the triple flamers the damn things were packing

Forgeworld BS. Why people defend forgeworld is beyond me. Back to our regularly scheduled program.

Because the most offensive models in 7th were from good 'ol GW. FW hating is so 5th ed.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
AM vs Tau : Tau victory

Saw a pair of those larger battlesuits wipe out a pair of pristine leman russ's in a single round of shooting. Damn things are powerful, especially the triple flamers the damn things were packing

Forgeworld BS. Why people defend forgeworld is beyond me. Back to our regularly scheduled program.

I'm just going to chime in and say I agree. I hope anyone who likes Forgeworld faces 2 fire raptors and Azrael every game for the rest of their life.

Good thing Forge World gives us the tools to do that!

 Marmatag wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
AM vs Tau : Tau victory

Saw a pair of those larger battlesuits wipe out a pair of pristine leman russ's in a single round of shooting. Damn things are powerful, especially the triple flamers the damn things were packing

Forgeworld BS. Why people defend forgeworld is beyond me. Back to our regularly scheduled program.

I'm just going to chime in and say I agree. I hope anyone who likes Forgeworld faces 2 fire raptors and Azrael every game for the rest of their life.

I'd rather face Fire Raptors than conscripts at this point.

 Jancoran wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
AM vs Tau : Tau victory

Saw a pair of those larger battlesuits wipe out a pair of pristine leman russ's in a single round of shooting. Damn things are powerful, especially the triple flamers the damn things were packing

Forgeworld BS. Why people defend forgeworld is beyond me. Back to our regularly scheduled program.

Yes, how dare ~800 points take out ~300 points.... You do realize a Y'Vahra is 400ish points with it's main weapon having an 8 inch range?

Deadawake1347 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
AM vs Tau : Tau victory

Saw a pair of those larger battlesuits wipe out a pair of pristine leman russ's in a single round of shooting. Damn things are powerful, especially the triple flamers the damn things were packing

Forgeworld BS. Why people defend forgeworld is beyond me. Back to our regularly scheduled program.

Yes, how dare ~800 points take out ~300 points.... You do realize a Y'Vahra is 400ish points with it's main weapon having an 8 inch range?

Its range is irrelevant as you know. spare me.

Not if the Russes are wrapped up 20" deep in conscripts.

 Jancoran wrote:

Deadawake1347 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
AM vs Tau : Tau victory

Saw a pair of those larger battlesuits wipe out a pair of pristine leman russ's in a single round of shooting. Damn things are powerful, especially the triple flamers the damn things were packing

Forgeworld BS. Why people defend forgeworld is beyond me. Back to our regularly scheduled program.

Yes, how dare ~800 points take out ~300 points.... You do realize a Y'Vahra is 400ish points with it's main weapon having an 8 inch range?

Its range is irrelevant as you know. spare me.

Even assuming the range is irrelevant, which is not the case as guard can easily shut it off from it's prime targets with proper screening, you still don't think that you should be able to remove a bit over a third of your point value? I could understand if it was equivalent points, or close to it, but for the cost of the two Y'Vahra you can take what, five Leman Russes?

Deadawake1347 wrote:
Even assuming the range is irrelevant, which is not the case as guard can easily shut it off from it's prime targets with proper screening, you still don't think that you should be able to remove a bit over a third of your point value? I could understand if it was equivalent points, or close to it, but for the cost of the two Y'Vahra you can take what, five Leman Russes?

Damn near exactly.

Martel732 wrote:
Not if the Russes are wrapped up 20" deep in conscripts.

MM hm. We're going to go down the boogeyman route with this like we do everything else? I understand the Conscript thing. I do. What does any of that have to do with the actual Y'Vahra? That SAME conscript problem exists for ALL units ,so naming them as a specific justification for allowing a broken thing or excusing it isn't really working for me. If the Conscript thing were UNIQUELY effective against the thing sure. But no. So no. A thing is broken itf a thing is broken, regardless of whether something clever can slow it down because the "something" in that sentence does the same to all kinds of units.

How many FW units are actually OP though? Or are we calling the FW line all OP because of a battlesuit and a flyer?

When a significant number of top lists are based on FW models that should tell you something.

What good is GW's playtesting if FW can just show up and invalidate it?

The game would be more balanced without Forgeworld. That should be reason enough to ditch it.

 Marmatag wrote:
When a significant number of top lists are based on FW models that should tell you something.

What good is GW's playtesting if FW can just show up and invalidate it?

The game would be more balanced without Forgeworld. That should be reason enough to ditch it.

Ah you mean like the top lists that are based off of Stormravens or Magnus or Horrors or Berzerkers or Noise Marines or Conscripts or Azrael's parking lot or Razorwings or Boyz or Genestealers. Yes the top tier lists are just flooded with FW.

Since the nerf not much is based on storm ravens.

Orks and Dark Angels absolutely have forgeworld in the list at the top tiers.

 Marmatag wrote:
Since the nerf not much is based on storm ravens.

Orks and Dark Angels absolutely have forgeworld in the list at the top tiers.

Not that I've seen in any major tournament: Orks have been running Boy spam with Weirdboy transportation and grot gun support, Dark Angels have been running Azrael's parking lot with some Termies thrown in for alpha strike and bikers for anti-horde.

Two games on the weekend.

Imperial Fists v World Eaters - WE win (it was close)

Imperial Fists v Tyranids - Tyranids got wrecked

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not if the Russes are wrapped up 20" deep in conscripts.

MM hm. We're going to go down the boogeyman route with this like we do everything else? I understand the Conscript thing. I do. What does any of that have to do with the actual Y'Vahra? That SAME conscript problem exists for ALL units ,so naming them as a specific justification for allowing a broken thing or excusing it isn't really working for me. If the Conscript thing were UNIQUELY effective against the thing sure. But no. So no. A thing is broken itf a thing is broken, regardless of whether something clever can slow it down because the "something" in that sentence does the same to all kinds of units.

My point really is that gw puts out plenty of stuff as broken or more than fw.

SoB vs IW (codex) : Sisters win

Codex CSM: Black Legion vs. Tau - Black Legion win
Codex CSM: Black Legion vs. Necrons - Black Legion win
Codex CSM: Black Legion vs. Codex CSM: Black Legion - uhhhh. . . Black Legion win

Oh sure, people fear my FW DE Reaper and Tantalus and I repeatedly table my opponents at the tournaments thanks to them... not.

Btw, I heard lists with conscripts and/or Guilliman are OP. The game would be more balanced without the Imperium faction. Let's ditch it.

This 'FW is OP' has no bearing at all since 6th ed. Also, GW accepts FW on their official Grand Tournament. Absolutely no reason to ban FW at all when the base company completely allows it.

mrhappyface, I'd suggest you to make a deal with the mods: delete any post that isn't related to posting game results. Discussing SoB tactics or if FW is OP or not isn't the purpose of this thread.

My results so far with Crons', all matches 2 000pts

Necrons vs Orks - Necrons Win (major victory)
Necrons vs Tau - Necrons Win (major victory)
Necrons vs Death Guard - Necrons Win (major victory)
Necrons vs Daemons - Necrons Win (major victory)
Necrons vs IG - Necrons Loss (close match, minor victory for the IG player)
Necrons vs Nidz - Necrons Win (major victory)
Necrons vs Tau - Necrons Win (minor victory)
Necrons vs Orks - Necrons Win (major victory)
Necrons vs Nidz - Necrons Win (major victory)
Necrons vs IG - Draw

Tau Vs. Chaos Space Marines (Iron Warriors, Codex) - Tau Win.

 Vector Strike wrote:
This 'FW is OP' has no bearing at all since 6th ed. Also, GW accepts FW on their official Grand Tournament. Absolutely no reason to ban FW at all when the base company completely allows it.

mrhappyface, I'd suggest you to make a deal with the mods: delete any post that isn't related to posting game results. Discussing SoB tactics or if FW is OP or not isn't the purpose of this thread.

The purpose of any thread is to have a discussion, what's the point of collecting results if we don't discuss them?

 Marmatag wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
This 'FW is OP' has no bearing at all since 6th ed. Also, GW accepts FW on their official Grand Tournament. Absolutely no reason to ban FW at all when the base company completely allows it.

mrhappyface, I'd suggest you to make a deal with the mods: delete any post that isn't related to posting game results. Discussing SoB tactics or if FW is OP or not isn't the purpose of this thread.

The purpose of any thread is to have a discussion, what's the point of collecting results if we don't discuss them?

Hear hear! Data without interpretation is just numbers and bytes!

 Vector Strike wrote:
This 'FW is OP' has no bearing at all since 6th ed. Also, GW accepts FW on their official Grand Tournament. Absolutely no reason to ban FW at all when the base company completely allows it.

mrhappyface, I'd suggest you to make a deal with the mods: delete any post that isn't related to posting game results. Discussing SoB tactics or if FW is OP or not isn't the purpose of this thread.

As long as it doesn't turn malicious discussing tactics, models or FW/GW that may affect these results is fine. The warning on the OP is due to a conscript discussion that spand several pages and started to turn nasty.

My $0.02 on the Forge World results:

I think they are absolutely skewing it... but possibly downwards. My local meta has a ton of people that will play things like the Land Raider Achilles, which is scary but is EXTREMELY vulnerable to people who know its rules and weaknesses. I have a hunch that barring a few select cases, people running Forge World gear and lists are probably bringing themselves down rather than up. Just look at the DKOK or R&H lists for example!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My $0.02 on the Forge World results:

I think they are absolutely skewing it... but possibly downwards. My local meta has a ton of people that will play things like the Land Raider Achilles, which is scary but is EXTREMELY vulnerable to people who know its rules and weaknesses. I have a hunch that barring a few select cases, people running Forge World gear and lists are probably bringing themselves down rather than up. Just look at the DKOK or R&H lists for example!

Opposite for me in the bay area. It's pretty competitive out here and when people run Forgeworld it's the broken most units.

I would be *100% fine* with Forgeworld if it had been tested as a part of the playtesting. But it wasn't! To me that is disgusting. The whole point of this being "the edition we asked for" was that they were testing it and balancing it.

Forgeworld feels like their rules were designed to sell models not to be a part of a balanced game.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My $0.02 on the Forge World results:

I think they are absolutely skewing it... but possibly downwards. My local meta has a ton of people that will play things like the Land Raider Achilles, which is scary but is EXTREMELY vulnerable to people who know its rules and weaknesses. I have a hunch that barring a few select cases, people running Forge World gear and lists are probably bringing themselves down rather than up. Just look at the DKOK or R&H lists for example!

Opposite for me in the bay area. It's pretty competitive out here and when people run Forgeworld it's the broken most units.

I would be *100% fine* with Forgeworld if it had been tested as a part of the playtesting. But it wasn't! To me that is disgusting. The whole point of this being "the edition we asked for" was that they were testing it and balancing it.

Forgeworld feels like their rules were designed to sell models not to be a part of a balanced game.

The first part is because of how competitive gaming works, not because of Forge World - there are more models than Forge World models that are offenders here.

The last sentence is demonstrably untrue, because like I said, most of their catalogue is just derpy stuff (minotaur artillery tanks, Ryza vanquishers, Praetor launchers, tarantula turrets, Stormblades, fifteen different Space Marine armour marks, etc). If their rules were designed to sell their models, then their rules would make their models really good! As it stands, though, a vast majority of their stuff is just kinda neat, and there's only a few truly broken things that slip through... just like with GW and its playtesting.

how goes the updating?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My $0.02 on the Forge World results:

I think they are absolutely skewing it... but possibly downwards. My local meta has a ton of people that will play things like the Land Raider Achilles, which is scary but is EXTREMELY vulnerable to people who know its rules and weaknesses. I have a hunch that barring a few select cases, people running Forge World gear and lists are probably bringing themselves down rather than up. Just look at the DKOK or R&H lists for example!

Opposite for me in the bay area. It's pretty competitive out here and when people run Forgeworld it's the broken most units.

I would be *100% fine* with Forgeworld if it had been tested as a part of the playtesting. But it wasn't! To me that is disgusting. The whole point of this being "the edition we asked for" was that they were testing it and balancing it.

Forgeworld feels like their rules were designed to sell models not to be a part of a balanced game.

The first part is because of how competitive gaming works, not because of Forge World - there are more models than Forge World models that are offenders here.

Top lists include Forgeworld for a reason. They don't play bit parts, the list plays around its Forgeworld contents.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My $0.02 on the Forge World results:

I think they are absolutely skewing it... but possibly downwards. My local meta has a ton of people that will play things like the Land Raider Achilles, which is scary but is EXTREMELY vulnerable to people who know its rules and weaknesses. I have a hunch that barring a few select cases, people running Forge World gear and lists are probably bringing themselves down rather than up. Just look at the DKOK or R&H lists for example!

Opposite for me in the bay area. It's pretty competitive out here and when people run Forgeworld it's the broken most units.

I would be *100% fine* with Forgeworld if it had been tested as a part of the playtesting. But it wasn't! To me that is disgusting. The whole point of this being "the edition we asked for" was that they were testing it and balancing it.

Forgeworld feels like their rules were designed to sell models not to be a part of a balanced game.

The first part is because of how competitive gaming works, not because of Forge World - there are more models than Forge World models that are offenders here.

Top lists include Forgeworld for a reason. They don't play bit parts, the list plays around its Forgeworld contents.

They also include GW's OP units for a reason, and that reason is they're trying to leverage any and every advantage they can at the expense of fluff and fun, stopping just short of breaking the rules.

Yes, Forge World makes OP units. They also make UP units. I'd say throughout their entire history they're just as bad at game design as Games Workshop itself. But I play a Games Workshop game, so clearly that doesn't bother me.

There's very little of Forgeworld's stuff that's actually balanced, because none of it is playtested.

There are some units that are far and beyond above the power curve [Vulture Gunship, etc.] and some that are so astoundingly bad you wonder why they even bothered to make it [Macharius]. There are quite a few that are just strictly superior versions of existing units, [Repressor, Earthshaker Platform, etc.]


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Top lists include Forgeworld for a reason. They don't play bit parts, the list plays around its Forgeworld contents.

They also include GW's OP units for a reason, and that reason is they're trying to leverage any and every advantage they can at the expense of fluff and fun, stopping just short of breaking the rules.

Yes, Forge World makes OP units. They also make UP units. I'd say throughout their entire history they're just as bad at game design as Games Workshop itself. But I play a Games Workshop game, so clearly that doesn't bother me.

I wouldn't call it at the expense of fun.

I had a lot of fun playing against an army with Gulliman and Leviathan Dreadnoughts and IG gunlines this edition, and a lot of fun playing against Riptide Wings and Wraithknights and Scatterbikes.

But it is a different kind of fun. I saw it as a challenge to overcome. It wasn't balanced, and would be pretty annoying if anything more than reputation and bragging rights were on the line, but it was certainly fun. There were two things I found actively un-fun; the Optimized Stealth Cadre and 'cron Air, because they really forced me to play defensively to mitigate their effects and were naturally hard to interact with, but I found ways to overcome both in the end.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
There's very little of Forgeworld's stuff that's actually balanced, because none of it is playtested.

Thank you, this is the point.

The big thing with 8th pre-launch was the beta feedback from groups of experienced testers and tournament organizers. They were allowed to provide feedback on the content before it was launched. We, as a playerbase, had no such opportunity with Forgeworld.

8th edition was sold on the idea of an ongoing dialogue around balance, "the edition we asked for," and Forgeworld came in and just gakked all over it. I don't care if they make underpowered units, it's the overpowered stuff that's causing problems.

If we can all agree that the game should be as balanced as possible, doesn't that mean we should take a long look at banning Forgeworld, until some real playtesting occurs? Phrased differently, how can we have any faith that the game will be balanced, if GW is doing one set of balance, and FW, another?

Nope, not at all.

My corsair army has done nothing to you and my powerlevel based games have no bearing on your tournament games.

You wanna ban units, run a tournament. But trying to get everyone on board with banning really cool stuff because you don't like a subset of models is decidedly uncool.

(I know forgeworld can be a bit swing, recognition and alteration are always an option. For example, my corsair brace of pistols only firs d3 shots. I could roll a d6, but I am well within my right to not shoot the full number of shots.)

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Nope, not at all.

My corsair army has done nothing to you and my powerlevel based games have no bearing on your tournament games.

You wanna ban units, run a tournament. But trying to get everyone on board with banning really cool stuff because you don't like a subset of models is decidedly uncool.

(I know forgeworld can be a bit swing, recognition and alteration are always an option. For example, my corsair brace of pistols only firs d3 shots. I could roll a d6, but I am well within my right to not shoot the full number of shots.)

Obviously referencing the tournament circuit restrictions. I don't much care about balancing casual scenarios, those are easily balanced on an ad-hoc basis.

2 more games to report:
Ultramarines vs Orks: Ultramarines win
Grey Knights vs Chaos Marines: Grey Knights win

I played as the Grey Knights and had first turn, mission was Secure and Control, table type was Hammer and Anvil. I had a GMDK, Voldus, 8 Paladin's, Stormraven, 3 Razorbacks, and 15 Strike Marines. Opponent had 2 Chaos Lord's, Land Raider, 2 Havoc squads (Lascannons & Heavy bolters) big squad of Plague Marines, and 4 Rhinos with CSM with special weapons.

Turn one I drop in with Paladin's, Voldus, and GMDK. Stormraven flies up next to them, AC Razor moves up, 2 LC Razors stay back by my home objective. Psychic and shooting takes out Lascannon Havocs for first blood, a few Plague Marines, and 4 wounds off the Raider. Chaos first turn he adjusts his Rhino wall, and deep strikes in a Lord and 3 Mutilators. They charge and kill the AC Razor and his other shooting pops 2.5 Paladin's. My turn 2 Smites and Lascannons kill the deep striking Lord and Mutilators, Raven kills the Raider, GMDK, Voldus, and Paladin's charge Plague Marines and his 2nd Lord, killing everyone. His second turn he jumps out of the Rhinos, fires everything thats left at the Paladin's and kills 2. He follows it up with charges that leave his guys in really bad shape. He calls the game.

I hold both objectives, First Blood, Slay the Warlord, and would get Line breaker eventually. I've lost a Razor, a Strike Marine, 4 Paladin's, and the GMDK has taken a few wounds. He's lost everything but a few random Chaos Marines, 5 Havocs with 4 heavy bolters, and 4 empty Rhinos. My next turn probably would've left him with 3 empty Rhinos and nothing else.

I hit 10-0 tonight, 4 wins with Grey Knights, 6 wins with Sister's of Battle.

IMO nobody I've played against yet has brought enough long range multi damage firepower. The most dangerous army I've fought against had 29 Berserkers, Kharn, Demon Prince, Lord on bike, Raider, 2 Rhinos, and 2 Lascannon Predators.

2 Chaos Lord's, Land Raider, 2 Havoc squads (Lascannons & Heavy bolters) big squad of Plague Marines, and 4 Rhinos with CSM with special weapons.

My goodness. This poor guy.

Did you give him some tips after the game?

 Marmatag wrote:

2 Chaos Lord's, Land Raider, 2 Havoc squads (Lascannons & Heavy bolters) big squad of Plague Marines, and 4 Rhinos with CSM with special weapons.

My goodness. This poor guy.

Did you give him some tips after the game?

Yeah, don't mess with Voldus and his Paladin buddies!

Actually yeah, I've tried telling him he needs extra bodies for the Havocs, and a nice big block of Cultists for a screen and his Rhino squads are almost useless. His only dangerous unit is the Land Raider and he's been using it as a pillbox instead of rushing with it. He's been playing for a very long time, but he was out of the game for about three or four years. In his defense he recently moved from out of state and the bulk of his army is still in Tennessee so he's very limited on what he can take.

Next week I'm taking on the Salamanders MSU gun line, which is the 3rd or 4th most successful army in our group. He has already proudly proclaimed he will castle up and try to blast me off the table with heavy weapons. He's got a ton of dudes and Razorbacks, but all his real teeth are tied up in 3 devastator squads. If I can knock those out early (respectable chances depending on how he deploys them) I think I can roll over him. Without his dozen missile launchers and lascannons he doesn't have anything to stop my big guys besides lots and lots of bolters and heavy bolters.

On a side note, he has professed a genuine fear of the Sisters of Battle. It's been a few decades since too many people have said that...

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My $0.02 on the Forge World results:

I think they are absolutely skewing it... but possibly downwards. My local meta has a ton of people that will play things like the Land Raider Achilles, which is scary but is EXTREMELY vulnerable to people who know its rules and weaknesses. I have a hunch that barring a few select cases, people running Forge World gear and lists are probably bringing themselves down rather than up. Just look at the DKOK or R&H lists for example!

Opposite for me in the bay area. It's pretty competitive out here and when people run Forgeworld it's the broken most units.

I would be *100% fine* with Forgeworld if it had been tested as a part of the playtesting. But it wasn't! To me that is disgusting. The whole point of this being "the edition we asked for" was that they were testing it and balancing it.

Forgeworld feels like their rules were designed to sell models not to be a part of a balanced game.

Forgeworld has never playtested anything they've released. They also lock their rules against secondary pay-walls (their own books which tend to be expensive).

It's why there are so many people who flat-out refuse to play against them.

My Blood Angels "Barrel o' Bees" list vs Space Marine "Gulliman parking lot". My Blood Angels lost bad

2 days into NOVA:

Imperial Knights Vs. Ultramarines (Codex). Ultramarines win.

Adeptus Custodes Vs. Space Wolves. Space Wolves win.

Adeptus Custodes Vs. Tyranids. Custodes win.

Adeptus Custodes Vs. Ynnari. Ynnari win.

Astra Militarum Vs. Grey Knights. Grey Knights win.

Astra Militarum Vs. Dark Angels. Astra win.

Chaos Space Marines vs. Blood Angels. Chaos SpaceMarines win,

Orks vs Codex SM. Orks win on maelstorm.

Thousand Sons vs Necrons - TS Victory

My TS list was a character heavy smite spam list featuring the Changeling as support for Magnus and the disc sorcerers while the Necron list was a very assault-oriented Maynarkh list with Kutlakh. Necrons had zero chance against the weight of smites, getting tabled on turn 3. Some tremendously bad luck where 28 scytheguard attacks into Magnus resulted in zero damage certainly helped.

Tau Empire vs. Chaos Space Marines: Chaos Win

So I was using the new CSM Codex with my World Eaters and my opponent using the new Space marine codex.

World Eaters v Ultramarines - World Eaters win
World Eaters v Imperial Fists - World Eaters win

Orks vs Iron Hands - Orks Win
Orks vs White Scars - Draw
Orks vs Salamanders - Orks Win
Orks vs Salamanders - Orks Win
Orks vs Salamanders - Orks Win
Orks vs Salamanders - Salamanders Win

Can't remember all my opponents but my results so far:

Tyranids-37 wins 0 losses
Daemons-4 wins 0 losses
Orks-1 win 0 losses
Adeptus Mechanicus- 3 wins 0 losses
Ravenwing-1 win 0 losses

Sneggy wrote:
Can't remember all my opponents but my results so far:

Tyranids-37 wins 0 losses
Daemons-4 wins 0 losses
Orks-1 win 0 losses
Adeptus Mechanicus- 3 wins 0 losses
Ravenwing-1 win 0 losses

U wot?

No codex

I dont have much "pure" Harlequin games, but i have 5w and 3L as pure quins.

SoB i have 3W 0L

DE, 8W 7L (most of this is testing new units tho so idk if you wanted to count this)

Out of my 35 ish games in total im about 60% win rate.

For sure tho SoB are my Strongest army and i eve down play them.

Edit: Also i fight mostly, SM, CSM, Daemons, IG, Orks, and Eldar

 mrhappyface wrote:

Sneggy wrote:
Can't remember all my opponents but my results so far:

Tyranids-37 wins 0 losses
Daemons-4 wins 0 losses
Orks-1 win 0 losses
Adeptus Mechanicus- 3 wins 0 losses
Ravenwing-1 win 0 losses

U wot?

I'm guessing you are disbelieving?
I'm currently the #1 ITC player in the UK and have been doing rather well with 8th edition.
Lot of close games in there, few hiding a ripper swarm behind walls to avoid tabling whilst winning on points but I assure you thats all legit and above board.

My personal results from the nova open GT:

Astra Militarum Superheavy Tank Company

1) CSM Alpha Legion & Deathguard: Victory for the superheavies!

2) CSM & Daemons (Tzeench) with Decimator engines: Victory for the Soulburner cannons!

3) Necrons w/ Pylon: Victory for the Pylon (my worst match; tabled at the bottom of 3. Pylons are jerks!)

4) Grey Knights paladin spam with GMDK: Victory for the Grey Knights on objective points, though I tabled him at the bottom of turn 5 and it would have been a superheavy victory if it hadn't ended then and there ('cause I could've driven unhindered to the objectives).

5) Salamanders chapter lascannon spam (razorbacks, Chapter Master, dreadnoughts with lascannons, devastators with lascannons, predators with lascannons): narrow superheavy victory for me!

6) Adeptus Mechanicus brigade with Cawl + Neutronagers: tabled bottom of 4 by neutron lasers, victory for the robots!

7) Tyranids with genestealer spam, cult magus, and Swarmlord: Victory for the Superheavies!

8) Foot sororitas with lascannon predators and a LRBT: Easy victory for the Superheavies!

So I ended 4-4, went first 2 or 3 times, I think.

Had an Imperium (IG and BA) versus Ynaari. Imperium wins.

It was actually a 2 vs 1 game at 2000 points. The Ynaari player tried a footdar list that was about 60 models or so bunched up behind a ADL, admitting that it was experimental, but wanting to see what happened. I DS 3x5 plasma scions and two primes off to the side. The BA player DS two assault squads, Dante, and a Libby about 14" away. We tore several squads apart, leaving a model or two to be cleaned up by morale in three squads. He infiltrated scorpions, and had some Dragons remove a razorback. The scorpions and some dark reapers attack my Tauroxen, but fail to destroy them. They move away and infantry squads and basilisks remove the rest of the scorpions. Assault squads assault in to the model ball. A 30 minute conversation about assaulting into a situation where multiple assaults, ADL rules, and WDS rules all come into play with jump infantry happens and I mentally check out for a while. The Ynnari or Ynaari, or whatever thing they're called with the special rule that lets them just do things happens throughout the melee, causing far more damage to the assault squad than expected. Wounds continue through the next round, until the BA guy is down to about four assault marines, Dante, and the librarian. I've lost most of the wounds on a single taurox and I think two scions. I talk to my ally and we agree he's going to jump out of battle and go for the objective, and then I unload my mostly untouched army on the units left out of melee. His librarian and two of my scion squads assault into Yvraine. No blows happen the first turn, but the second turn, I deal one wound and the Librarian deals the remaining. I finish up everything not in melee in the meanwhile.

Next turn, Dante finishes up his melees and we finish up the remaining few models we didn't have in combat. There's maybe five remaining models for BA, Dante and libby included, and IG have 2 full strength Scions a 3 man Scion, a Prime with 2 wounds, a Prime, a Taurox with 1 wound left, a Taurox with 1 wound down, a Basilisk with 1 wound down, a Basilisk, three infantry squads with power sword, plasma pistol, plasmagun, and lascannon, a commissar lord with power sword, and a company commander with bolt pistol.

Sneggy wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Sneggy wrote:
Can't remember all my opponents but my results so far:

Tyranids-37 wins 0 losses
Daemons-4 wins 0 losses
Orks-1 win 0 losses
Adeptus Mechanicus- 3 wins 0 losses
Ravenwing-1 win 0 losses

U wot?

I'm guessing you are disbelieving?
I'm currently the #1 ITC player in the UK and have been doing rather well with 8th edition.
Lot of close games in there, few hiding a ripper swarm behind walls to avoid tabling whilst winning on points but I assure you thats all legit and above board.

He's not disbelieving, but those results of yours have no value here if you don't inform us the opponent. The tables in the first post will only work if they have the data on who won and who lost in the same game

He's not disbelieving, but those results of yours have no value here if you don't inform us the opponent. The tables in the first post will only work if they have the data on who won and who lost in the same game

the first post contains no info at all on matchups, so that is manifestly untrue. All the first post shows is win/lose rate for each individual force, so the info provided has everything that is needed. 37 wins and 0 losses for example is all the first post needs.

puree wrote:

He's not disbelieving, but those results of yours have no value here if you don't inform us the opponent. The tables in the first post will only work if they have the data on who won and who lost in the same game

the first post contains no info at all on matchups, so that is manifestly untrue. All the first post shows is win/lose rate for each individual force, so the info provided has everything that is needed. 37 wins and 0 losses for example is all the first post needs.

Well, it's relevant if only to weed out the "Tyranid vs Tyranid" matchups, because if you only count that as a Win for Tyranids and not a Loss as well, you're skewing the data.

So if I played AM vs AM only (say I only play against one buddy and we like historical-style armies), then just reported 500 wins... well, AM would get 500 wins even though it should also get 500 losses, if that makes sense.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Sneggy wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Sneggy wrote:
Can't remember all my opponents but my results so far:

Tyranids-37 wins 0 losses
Daemons-4 wins 0 losses
Orks-1 win 0 losses
Adeptus Mechanicus- 3 wins 0 losses
Ravenwing-1 win 0 losses

U wot?

I'm guessing you are disbelieving?
I'm currently the #1 ITC player in the UK and have been doing rather well with 8th edition.
Lot of close games in there, few hiding a ripper swarm behind walls to avoid tabling whilst winning on points but I assure you thats all legit and above board.

He's not disbelieving, but those results of yours have no value here if you don't inform us the opponent. The tables in the first post will only work if they have the data on who won and who lost in the same game

Fair enough, didn't think of it like that.

I'll go back through and fathom out what I can. I know most of the match ups.

For me it's not the results, I'm impressed anyone can find time to get in almost 50 games already.

Thousand Sons+Alpha Legion vs Emperor's Children - EC Victory

Both sides using the CSM codex. I kept forgetting the Alpha Legion trait when my helbrutes and oblits were getting shot up, oops.

Chaos Space Marines vs. Tyranids. Chaos Wins.

More results from today's club meet:

Tau vs World Eaters - Tau Win
Tau vs Death Guard - Death Guard Win
Death Guard vs Space Wolves - Death Guard Win
Tau vs Tyranids - Tau Win
Space Marines vs Space Marines - err, Space Marines Win

EDIT: Local Genestealer Cult player also gave me the results of his last 20 games - all wins apparently (though I can't verify this myself, I've never seen him play his Stealers).
5 wins against Space Marines
3 wins against Tau
1 win against Guard
2 wins against Nids
4 wins against Craftworld Eldar
1 win against Orks
1 win against Sisters
1 win against Dark Eldar

I had two games today.

Blood Angels vs Imperial Guard: Blood Angels win


And one that's not particularly helpful for this comparison because it was BA vs BA, but it was still a fun game:

Blood Angels Terminators vs Blood Angels Veterans: BA Termies win.

Custodes Vs. Ynnari. Ynnari win.

Custodes Vs. CSM (Codex). Custodes win.

Thousand Sons vs. Renegades & Heretics - R&H win

In short, Malefic Lords are broken.

White Scars (Codex) defeated Sisters of Battle

Sisters vs Orks - SoB win
Dark Eldar vs Necrons - DE win

T'au Empire vs. Alpha Legion. T'au Empire win!

I got in a 2000 point game yesterday, with my MIXED CODEX CSM and INDEX DAEMONS/KNIGHT list vs a PURE DARK ELDAR list. My Chaos LOST significantly.

Despite the addition of my newly painted Obliterators, my forced got nearly tabled. A lot of this was just due to REALLY bad luck on my part [like rolling at least one one every time he did wounds to my CSM in cover] and good saves on his part. Highlight of the match was Karanak killing his marked prey, the opponent's Archon, which was also his Warlord.

Orks beat up my Blood Angels

Vanilla Marines (Iron Hands) beat Necrons
Grey Knights beat Vanilla Marines (Iron Hands)
Vanilla Marines (Iron Hands) beat Chaos Marines (Alpha Legion)
Vanilla Marines (Iron Hands) beat Chaos Marines (Iron Warriors)
Chaos Marines (Iron Warriors) beat Craftworld Eldar
Adeptus Mechanicus beats Chaos Marines (Iron Warriors)
Vanilla Marines (Iron Hands) beat Chaos Marines (Alpha Legion)
Vanilla Marines (Iron Hands) beat Craftworld Eldar
Chaos Marines (Iron Warriors) beat Craftworld Eldar
Vanilla Marines (Iron Hands) beat Craftworld Eldar

Imperial Guard superheavy tanks beat Chaos Space Marines black legion

Thousand Sons vs Adeptus Mechanicus - TS win

The twin daemon princes came up really strong here; after the heldrake heroically sacrificed itself to destroy the dragoon screen they managed to sneak in and kill Cawl on turn 2.

Codex Chaos Space Marines vs. Mixed Imperial, 5000 pointer. We couldnt finish, but both agreed that Chaos had the upper hand. Feel free not to include in record since we couldn't play it out, just reporting.

I can now field over 5,000 points of fully painted CSM. Horahh!

Here are some of my results:

Ynnari vs Space Marines (Ultramarines, all Primaris) - Ynnari Win

Ynnari vs SM & AM (One detachment of each) - Ynnari Win

Guard vs tyranids- Guard win

Guard vs 1k sons- Guard win

T'au Vs. Necrons. Tau Win.

T'au Vs. Space Marines (Codex, Imperial Fists). Tau Lose.

T'au Vs. Space Marines (Codex, Black Templars). DRAW.

Four round escalating points tourney.

1000 points Iyanden vs. Iron Hands....win.
1500 points Iyanden vs. Blood Angels...loss
2000 points Iyanden vs. Ultramarines...win.
2000 points Iyanden vs. Blood Angels....win.

Went 3-1 with my first time playing 8th edition. Won best Xenos and placed 4th in points out of 12.

Are the tables on the first page updated?

No games to report this week as I live in Tampa and have been quite busy dealing with Hurricane Irma. Happily all our terrain, tables, and minis have survived the storm. (The people did too...)

I played a game this weekend, 2000 GK vs 2000 GK. It was super fun, we played the "Battlezones," with a combination of the Open War cards. We each got a Ruse card. And, we used the rules for psychic maelstrom. Manifesting powers with a +3 to cast, and a +3 to deny was hilarious. One of the most fun games of 8th i've played. We didn't bring any strong stuff like Storm Ravens. It was a fun game that went to turn 5. I took the game with a lot more points, but still, it was relatively close and one of only a few games of 8th i've played where someone wasn't tabled.

Astra Militarum versus Ultramarines. Ultramarines victory.

I dunno why I'm still amused at how GK are at essentially a 50/50.

my last 5 games
Ork Vs Space Marines Ork win
Orks Vs 1ksons, ork loss
Orks vs Ynnari, ork win
Orks vs Chaos Ork loss
Orks vs World Eaters Ork Win

 Quickjager wrote:
I dunno why I'm still amused at how GK are at essentially a 50/50.

Because you can add Imperium. And GK, like any other Imperium, can add 50% or more imperial guard.

Played two games on Saturday, both at 2000 points with Eternal War Missions.

Iyanden vs Death Guard: Iyanden Win
Iyanden vs Death Guard: Iyanden Win

Total games to date: 6, 5-1 with Iyanden Craftworld.

Astra Militarum vs Deathguard. Deathguard win

This primarchs are damn tough to kill. Mortarion walked right up to a Devil Dog and two Leman Russ tanks, shedding tones of anti-armor fire and passing some of it to nearby Death Shroud while only taking 4 wounds from 750+pts of AM. Dude is a beast with the enhanced armor saves, disgustingly resilient, and ability to shunt damage. It's going to take some serious list rebuilding to survive that thing.

Foreseeing an influx of deathguard wins due to sudden skill level increase.

 koooaei wrote:
Foreseeing an influx of deathguard wins due to sudden skill level increase.

And a lot of conscript wielding AM players crying for a nerf. That 7" mortal wound aura in each fight phase is no joke. Mortorian doesn't give a damn for your cheap meat shields (which is probably how it should be, given his patron)

Orks vs Dark Angels, Orks went first and lost

Mechanized Orks vs Deathguard: Orks win

Grey Knights vs Ultramarines: Grey Knights squeek by with a victory.

 koooaei wrote:
Foreseeing an influx of deathguard wins due to sudden skill level increase.

This made me laugh

Orks vs death guard: orks win
Orks vs death guardrks win
Space marines vs orks: orks win
Elder vs orks: orks win
Blood angels vs orksrks win
Grey knights vs orks: orks win
Grey knights vs orks: grey knights win

Booger ork wrote:
Orks vs death guard: orks win
Orks vs death guardrks win
Space marines vs orks: orks win
Elder vs orks: orks win
Blood angels vs orksrks win
Grey knights vs orks: orks win
Grey knights vs orks: grey knights win

Oooo, thats good to see!



2000 pt. Codex Sm (UM) vs. Ynnari. SM win.

2000 points

Orks Vs Dark Angels - Ork win

Booger ork wrote:
Orks vs death guard: orks win
Orks vs death guardrks win
Space marines vs orks: orks win
Elder vs orks: orks win
Blood angels vs orksrks win
Grey knights vs orks: orks win
Grey knights vs orks: grey knights win

Hey, do as a favor and put your list in the Ork Tactics thread!

FYI, this one: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727761.page

I'd like to see that list too.

 mrhappyface wrote:


Astra Militarium - 180W 111L
Space Marines - 122W 131L 19W 22L
Tyranids - 88W 86L
Orks - 97W 124L
Eldar - 89W 81L
Tau - 79W 106L
Chaos Space Marines - 75W 106L 5W 7L
Dark Eldar - 71W 49L
Dark Angels - 62W 70L
Adepta Sororitas - 58W 12L
Necrons - 53W 71L
Space Wolves - 51W 56L
Ad mech - 46W 37L
Thousand Sons - 44W 22L
Daemons - 37W 31L
Blood Angels - 38W 52L
Grey Knights - 34W 33L 3W 2L
Ynnari - 28W 16L
Imperial Knights - 26W 18L
Death Guard - 24W 47L 1W 5L
World Eaters - 20W 10L 1W 0L
Harlequins - 14W 10L
Fallen - 10W 12L
Inquisition - 9W 4L
Deathwatch - 7W 23L
Emperors Children - 6W 1L 0L 0L
Adeptus Custodes - 5W 7L
Genestealer Cult - 5W 16L
Titanicus - 2W 0L
Renegade Guard - 2W 1L

List updated

I guessed that if the OP was updated on the 11/9 then it included all the post since 10/9, so i counted all posts from 11/9 in my update.

Night Lords vs. Alpha Legion: Night Lords victory

Thousand Sons vs. Orks - TS Victory
Thousand Sons vs. Drukhari - TS Victory
Thousand Sons vs. AdMech - TS Victory

I haven't been active but I have played and won a LOT with TS

TS v blood angels x3 all TS wins!!! Haha

TS v chaos marines 4 TS win 2 loss

TS v dark angels TS win

TS v admech TS win.


In summary, my army has been doing VERY well.
Magnus is a beast.

Marines and Sisters vs mixed Eldar (6000pts)

Close game but Imperium won.

Astra Militarum Super heavy Tanks vs. Death Korps of Krieg, AM tanks won

Sisters vs Tau.

Sisters win.

All of these are at 1000 points:

Ultramarines:

0-1 vs Crimson fists
2-0 vs IW CSM


CSM (using IW tactics):
0-1 vs Ultras

@2000pts:
IW CSM vs Ultras 0-1
IW CSM vs Tau 1-0
IW CSM vs Orks 1-1

Tau Vs. 1 Imperial Knight and 1 Forgeworld titan. Tau won
Tau Vs. Tau. Tau Won
Tau vs. Space Wolves. Space Wolves won.

 Jancoran wrote:


Tau Vs. Tau. Tau Won

Ya don't say....

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


Tau Vs. Tau. Tau Won

Ya don't say....

I do say. Lol.

 Jancoran wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


Tau Vs. Tau. Tau Won

Ya don't say....

I do say. Lol.

A bunch more like this and Tau will be up near 50% in no time!

SoB vs DG (codex) : SoB win
DE vs Ultras (codex) : Ultra win
DG vs Nids : DG win

Eldar vs. Ad Mech -- Ad Mech win
Ynnari vs. Tau -- Tau win
Ynnari vs. Space Marines -- Ynnari win

In the Ynnari vs. Space marines I won out of pure luck because he was using Rob Gulliman and failed his revive save twice after using a command point re-roll so he couldn't come back to life and take the relic hahaha

I've played quite a few Dark Eldar games since 8th came out. Here are my relatively recent games:

14 Wins. 6 Losses.

13/14 wins were at games of 1250-2000 points. 4/6 losses were at games of 500-1000 points. I seem to do a lot better at higher point levels.


Dark Eldar v.Tyranids - Loss
Dark Eldar v. Astra Militarum - Loss
Dark Eldar v. Necrons - Loss
Dark Eldar v. Space Marines (Primaris) - Loss
Dark Eldar v. Ad Mech - Loss
Dark Eldar v. Tau - Loss
Dark Eldar v. Tau -Win
Dark Eldar v. Orks - Win
Dark Eldar v. Space Marines - Win
Dark Eldar v. Astra Militarum - Win
Dark Eldar v. Death Guard - Win
Dark Eldar v. Death Guard - Win
Dark Eldar v. Astra Militarum - Win
Dark Eldar v. Necrons - Win
Dark Eldar v. Space Marines - Win
Dark Eldar v. Astra Militarum - Win
Dark Eldar v. Astra Militarum - Win
Dark Eldar v. Astra Militarum - Win (it is at this point I will stop counting games against that player, as we began a "test the rules to see what will work for him in 8th series. He's trying to run conscript-less AM)
Dark Eldar v. Space Marines - Win
Dark Eldar v. Chaos Space Marines - Win

Astra Militarum vs. Custodes. Astra Militarum victory

Astra Militarum vs. Imperium (Bobby G + Prophyrion combo). Astra Militarum victory

Astra Militarum vs. Chaos Daemons (Mortarian+ Magnus!)... Astra Militarum victory