I had no idea about that from the films - I just assumed the Repblic won and the empire died and "from its ashes arose the FO?"
I got a headache from reading the Aftermath books... Coruscant was still capital of the Empire and Mas Amedda as vizier was technically ruling it, but was essentially imprisoned in his own chambers by certain elements of the Imperial navy (who had been tasked by Palpatine to bring the whole thing crashing down in the event of his demise). Some kids found a way into his quarters and smuggled him out, where he was able to get offworld and sign a treaty with the Republic, bringing an end to the war, which led to an enfeebled Empire and Mon Mothma disarming the Republic in response.
Even 'Truce at Bakura' was a better Endor follow up.
Mr Morden wrote:[
but isn't this the super intetelectual vision of how film making should be done (as per the critics) shouldn't this apparently god like subversion of the narrative at least say something about the FO?
Yeah, the Empire still controls, and is confined to, most of the Core Worlds and Inner Rim. The treaty just prevents them from recruiting and mobilizing Stormtroopers, and they had to disband the Imperial Academies. Oh and Coruscant was ceded to the Republic.
I had no idea about that from the films - I just assumed the Repblic won and the empire died and "from its ashes arose the FO?"
Lance845 wrote:I was also unaware that the empire existed still.
So, technically there are two Imperial Remnants, one that is happy(ish) in the territory they still have, complete with a functioning navy and everything (except stormtroopers). Then there's the other group of "Hardliners" who ran off and helped create the First Order.
Manchu wrote: TFA was horrible on this score and TLJ had no interest in correcting the matter.
Yeah. I think that maybe one of things that is causing the more 'dedicated' elements of the SW fanbase to fail to get behind the new sequels is that some of us spent years reading about the development of the galaxy after RotJ and regardless of the quality of the story there was a central narrative that kept things ticking over. Disney ejected all of it in one fell swoop, and fans were anxious to see what exactly was replacing this story that had built up. Well, it was nothing, really. "Decades have passed and there are no obvious steps that bring us from RotJ to here.".
Humans use stories to make sense of the world (including fictional worlds) and the narrative of the post-Jedi SW galaxy has objectively become vaguer than it was (and suddenly unfamiliar to readers of the previous canon).
I think it is neat and creates some potential for cool stories. JJ was probably pretty shy of talking about politics very much thanks to the backlash against the PT. But TFA was unnecessarily mawkish on this score and should have followed ANH's example (about the only thing TFA failed to ape from ANH). TLJ would have to be a completely different movie (and it should have been) to address these issues.
You'll have to wait for the full story coming soon in TK-421: A Star Wars Story, in which the naive young trooper gets thrown off the Death Star and transferred to Coruscant just in time, and subseuently stays in the corps long enough to see the collapse of the Empire first hand. Retiring from the military after the peace accords, TK-421, or "Teekay" as she renames herself (having decided to identify as a woman), takes up a new career in mouse droid racing. The film follows Teekay as she climbs the ranks of the professional circuit, racing all across the Empire's diminishing territory, when a mysterous call goes out for only the finest mouse droid racers to gather way out in the galactic rim for the inaugural First Order Grand Prix, (brought to you by Snoka-cola). Disaster strikes on the eve of the big race as Teekay's mouse droid is sabotaged by Hux Dastardly. Can Teekay overcome technical shenanigans and inherent anti-trans bias to win the most coveted prize in racing?
Coming Christmas 2022... TK-421: A Star Wars Story
(because Star Wars needs to hit some of the genre films before the MCU gets to them, and the 80s montage-centric sports genre is still up for grabs)
its actually difficult to say as neither director could be bothered to make anything up about what if anything the FO stood for. They are just the "Evil Empire"
That's a standard trope. The audience doesn't need an explanation. Most of the audience don't care about the backstory. Lucas was equally slack about developing the backstory of the Empire in A New Hope. No-one cared.
The ironic thing is that lots of modern people know so little about the history of the real Nazis until it gets to WW2.
but isn't this the super intetelectual vision of how film making should be done (as per the critics) shouldn't this apparently god like subversion of the narrative at least say something about the FO?
...
No. It's the utterly normal way that films are made.
They are based on widely understood symbols and patterns in visual and audio design. For example, good cowboys wear light coloured hats, and bad cowboys wear dark ones. Music for heroes is uplifting. Sad music is in a minor key. And so on.
There are patterns and tropes in modern work that date back over 2,500 years to ancient Greek drama.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you are looking for an intellectual film, check out Arrival, most of which is concerned with the detection and comprehension of patterns of lexis in alien text.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I actively want the First Order to win. The characters on all sides now are so unlikeable and the New Republic has been exposed to be so corrupt and hypocritical that I'm inclined to agree with Kylo Ren. Forget the past - kill it if you have to.
Burn the galaxy. EXTERMINATUS
Yeah, that might get me to watch IX. Kylo Ren is the only character that's shown any growth or story arc at all so far. Might as well make him the antihero of the series.
Manchu wrote: To move away from how desperately bad TLJ is for a moment, one thing I notice about the scores for both TFA and TLJ is that they studiously avoid the Imperial March. I think this contributes to the suspicion that the FO is a counterfeit Empire. Do you reckon we will see the actual post-RotJ Empire at some point, and maybe they will for example help the Resistance get back on their feet because they sense how dangerous the FO is to the galaxy at large, especially absent the New Republic, and maybe then we will hear a sort of heroic version of the Imperial March?
I think it's worth pointing out that the Imperial March is more specifically Vader's theme. So, we should really only be hearing it when Vader is somehow involved.
I think it's worth pointing out that the Imperial March is more specifically Vader's theme. So, we should really only be hearing it when Vader is somehow involved.
It's just the song that plays in Imperial recruitment ads.
its actually difficult to say as neither director could be bothered to make anything up about what if anything the FO stood for. They are just the "Evil Empire"
That's a standard trope. The audience doesn't need an explanation. Most of the audience don't care about the backstory. Lucas was equally slack about developing the backstory of the Empire in A New Hope. No-one cared.
The ironic thing is that lots of modern people know so little about the history of the real Nazis until it gets to WW2.
but isn't this the super intetelectual vision of how film making should be done (as per the critics) shouldn't this apparently god like subversion of the narrative at least say something about the FO?
...
No. It's the utterly normal way that films are made.
They are based on widely understood symbols and patterns in visual and audio design. For example, good cowboys wear light coloured hats, and bad cowboys wear dark ones. Music for heroes is uplifting. Sad music is in a minor key. And so on.
There are patterns and tropes in modern work that date back over 2,500 years to ancient Greek drama.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you are looking for an intellectual film, check out Arrival, most of which is concerned with the detection and comprehension of patterns of lexis in alien text.
While correct, most of these centuries-old symbols and dramatic devices were never intended for a chronological series of films which has continued for decades, with a die-hard fanbase, and a very rich lore and history built up entirely in that fictional world.
Yes, creating new universes and settings would absolutely benefit from the tried and tested "generic" signalling, but a continually running story with characters and a world we're already invested in proably should be explained how the resolution from one got to another. Unfortunately, both TFA and TLJ both do this.
In TFA, we see the First Order come about somehow. What are they in relation to the universe we've already established?
In TLJ, we see the First Order somehow acting as the dominant power, despite losing what is implied to be a vast amount of manpower and materiel on Starkiller Base, and the New Republic losing a handful of planets?
One thing I would like to point out, in regard to the hyperspace ramming, is that the entire solar system should have ceased to exist when it happened.
Based upon the assumed mass (from what we see) of the ramming ship and its target, and on the principle that ramming at such vast speeds would cause atomic fission on a vast scale, the two ships should become a brief neutron star and wipe the solar system of backwatermcgee off of the solar charts.
Just for reference that is two ships, a capital and a super capital, being used as reaction mass in an extremely efficient and all consuming nuclear detonation. At this point you are measuring the resulting death wave in gigamiles.
master of ordinance wrote: One thing I would like to point out, in regard to the hyperspace ramming, is that the entire solar system should have ceased to exist when it happened.
Based upon the assumed mass (from what we see) of the ramming ship and its target, and on the principle that ramming at such vast speeds would cause atomic fission on a vast scale, the two ships should become a brief neutron star and wipe the solar system of backwatermcgee off of the solar charts.
Just for reference that is two ships, a capital and a super capital, being used as reaction mass in an extremely efficient and all consuming nuclear detonation. At this point you are measuring the resulting death wave in gigamiles.
Yes. Lets try to calculate real world physics in a universe where a teenager can jump out of a speeder going hundreds of miles an hour, fall hundreds of feet, land in another speeder going hundreds of miles an hour in a different direction, and not do damage to both himself and the speeder he hit.
master of ordinance wrote: One thing I would like to point out, in regard to the hyperspace ramming, is that the entire solar system should have ceased to exist when it happened.
Based upon the assumed mass (from what we see) of the ramming ship and its target, and on the principle that ramming at such vast speeds would cause atomic fission on a vast scale, the two ships should become a brief neutron star and wipe the solar system of backwatermcgee off of the solar charts.
Just for reference that is two ships, a capital and a super capital, being used as reaction mass in an extremely efficient and all consuming nuclear detonation. At this point you are measuring the resulting death wave in gigamiles.
Yes. Lets try to calculate real world physics in a universe where a teenager can jump out of a speeder going hundreds of miles an hour, fall hundreds of feet, land in another speeder going hundreds of miles an hour in a different direction, and not do damage to both himself and the speeder he hit.
Well, there is a tad difference between an accomplished force user and a hundred miles an hour, and an non user and FTL speeds.
Not to mention it would have been a fitting end for the Rebels, instead of crippling them to a mere 12 members, and now either requiring Writer Fiat or a mercy kill, as they chose to do so instead. And then maybe we could focus on the Empire instead, with the old Empire rapidly re-arming and mobilising in order to face off against the major threat posed by the First Order., Now that would make for an interesting story arc.
master of ordinance wrote: One thing I would like to point out, in regard to the hyperspace ramming, is that the entire solar system should have ceased to exist when it happened.
Based upon the assumed mass (from what we see) of the ramming ship and its target, and on the principle that ramming at such vast speeds would cause atomic fission on a vast scale, the two ships should become a brief neutron star and wipe the solar system of backwatermcgee off of the solar charts.
Just for reference that is two ships, a capital and a super capital, being used as reaction mass in an extremely efficient and all consuming nuclear detonation. At this point you are measuring the resulting death wave in gigamiles.
Yes. Lets try to calculate real world physics in a universe where a teenager can jump out of a speeder going hundreds of miles an hour, fall hundreds of feet, land in another speeder going hundreds of miles an hour in a different direction, and not do damage to both himself and the speeder he hit.
Well, there is a tad difference between an accomplished force user and a hundred miles an hour, and an non user and FTL speeds.
Not to mention it would have been a fitting end for the Rebels, instead of crippling them to a mere 12 members, and now either requiring Writer Fiat or a mercy kill, as they chose to do so instead. And then maybe we could focus on the Empire instead, with the old Empire rapidly re-arming and mobilising in order to face off against the major threat posed by the First Order., Now that would make for an interesting story arc.
You would need to imply that anakin was not JUST using the force to stop the forward momentum of the speeder he landed on from turning him into paste but also his downward momentum AND use the force to keep the speeder from exploding into shrapnel from being hit by an aparently impervious to blunt force trama chosen one.
master of ordinance wrote: One thing I would like to point out, in regard to the hyperspace ramming, is that the entire solar system should have ceased to exist when it happened.
Based upon the assumed mass (from what we see) of the ramming ship and its target, and on the principle that ramming at such vast speeds would cause atomic fission on a vast scale, the two ships should become a brief neutron star and wipe the solar system of backwatermcgee off of the solar charts.
Just for reference that is two ships, a capital and a super capital, being used as reaction mass in an extremely efficient and all consuming nuclear detonation. At this point you are measuring the resulting death wave in gigamiles.
Yes. Lets try to calculate real world physics in a universe where a teenager can jump out of a speeder going hundreds of miles an hour, fall hundreds of feet, land in another speeder going hundreds of miles an hour in a different direction, and not do damage to both himself and the speeder he hit.
Well, there is a tad difference between an accomplished force user and a hundred miles an hour, and an non user and FTL speeds.
Not to mention it would have been a fitting end for the Rebels, instead of crippling them to a mere 12 members, and now either requiring Writer Fiat or a mercy kill, as they chose to do so instead. And then maybe we could focus on the Empire instead, with the old Empire rapidly re-arming and mobilising in order to face off against the major threat posed by the First Order., Now that would make for an interesting story arc.
You're arguing against fictional physics with theoretical physics.
The physics of it is less problematic than it being universe breaking (as in, not literally destroying the universe, but breaking the consistency of it). If it's a viable tactic to do that then all space battles in SW should have just been launching FTL torpedoes at each other as any other tactic is much less efficient.
"Because space magic" is a legitimate excuse for anything in a world like SW, the problem comes when "because space magic" breaks internal consistency or logic and is used as a patch up over poor writing.
Tannhauser42 wrote: I think it's worth pointing out that the Imperial March is more specifically Vader's theme. So, we should really only be hearing it when Vader is somehow involved.
This is a point of confusion, mostly resulting from marketing. The theme is used in ESB and RotJ to refer to both Vader specifically and the Empire generally. It is used in TPM to foreshadow Anakin's dark destiny. It is used in AotC to indicate the origins of the Empire as the clone legions march into troop transports under Chancellor Palpatine's gaze. A version is used in Solo as in-setting Imperial propaganda. And of course there was no Imperial March in ANH, which Lucas could have but did not change in 1997 or 2004 or 2011, despite Vader appearing throughout.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: ... ... and so on
In TFA, we see the First Order come about somehow. What are they in relation to the universe we've already established?
In TLJ, we see the First Order somehow acting as the dominant power, despite losing what is implied to be a vast amount of manpower and materiel on Starkiller Base, and the New Republic losing a handful of planets?
Star Wars is a "rollicking space yarn". It deals with sweeping grand themes and symbols.
The Evil Empire wouldn't be much of an enemy if it fell over after its first defeat.
We don't need an analysis of their command structure and logistical capability. We can see that they aren't defeated by the fact that we are shown they are undefeated.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: None of that comes across in the films. It would be nice not to have to read outside sources to understand the basics of the setting.
You're preaching to the choir.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: Star Wars is a "rollicking space yarn". It deals with sweeping grand themes and symbols.
Could be read as an indictment against TLJ. There is nothing rollicking about that movie.
Star Wars is a "rollicking space yarn". It deals with sweeping grand themes and symbols.
Well it was a set of three good fun films which was followed by three terrible rpequals now one not as good but fun sequal and one terrible sequal
The Evil Empire wouldn't be much of an enemy if it fell over after its first defeat.
True but the lack of ambition of the director shows here, he is happy just to ape (badly) previous filsm whilst having no content or ideas of his own. Its sad that he was not able to reach beyond a few basic tennents and lazy writing to try and make something exciting and interesting.
We don't need an analysis of their command structure and logistical capability. We can see that they aren't defeated by the fact that we are shown they are undefeated.
Again a decent director knows that show don't tell is the way - rather than filllng up screen time with the Chase of Tedium he could have shown a few moments of the Frist Order rising and crushing the Republic or if he truely wanted to be as subverting as people costantly claim then have them marching triamphantly across world with compliant governments coloborating - as it is we are left with the vague idea that the Republic must have been worse than the Empire as it falls overnight and absolutely no one (except maybe a few hundred people and some slave kids later) cares.
Perhaps instead of a pointless excursion to Casio World, the pair of idiots could have found that it was hosting the leaders of conquered worlds being wined and dined by the FO, selling out their people.
Yes, I agree that SW ought to be a rollicking yarn all in all. These are first and foremost adventure movies. The one thing TPM and AotC have over RotS is, well, a sense of fun. RotS of course had to strike some very dark notes given the nature of the story. But we can all agree the prequels could have been handled better. A big part of how TFA redeemed the SW brand at the cinema and earned audience trust was by showing likeable characters having a good time. No one has a good time in TLJ.
Luke conquers his demons, fights a legendary duel and is re-united with The Force.
Rey finds her true path.
Finn finds his courage.
Rose finds love.
Poe learns a bit of responsibility.
Leia sees the Rebellion escape the jaws of death.
It's not a dance party, to be sure, but it's the middle of a trilogy with the structure that the heroes have to take some knocks in order to rise again in the final part. It's not as if things were a three ring circus at the end of Empire Strikes Back.
You're wrong Manchu, clearly me and KillKrazy had a good time so don't go around making blanket statements about everyone.
Show don't tell has its limits. If you don't know something of the montage going on it's mostly pointless. Stick to less storylines. The jedi-killing montage works because these are characters we have seen before. We already had a visual in TLJ of the repulic being evaporrated by starkilller. After that we're told there's no more fleet to cover the rebels.
You're right we shouldn't need expanded canon or novelization to explain stuff. But I'll repeat you can't ignore scenes just because we don't like them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also It has been tentatively confirmed that there is going to be a several year timeskip between 8 and 9.
None of those are fun beats. We could put Luke losing his hand on Bespin on that list. It isn't fun. But ESB does have fun, such as Han's daring asteroid belt piloting. Not to mention the tender if awkward romance between Leia and Han. And the entire sequence on Dagobah is about wonder and awe. Although Yoda is wise, he is also charming and delightful. Just listen to the score for these parts of ESB:
Spoiler:
Earth127 wrote: You're wrong Manchu, clearly me and KillKrazy had a good time so don't go around making blanket statements about everyone.
I'm not talking about audience members. I'm talking about the characters in the film.
Luke conquers his demons, fights a legendary duel and is re-united with The Force.
Rey finds her true path.
Finn finds his courage.
Rose finds love.
Poe learns a bit of responsibility.
Leia sees the Rebellion escape the jaws of death.
It's not a dance party, to be sure, but it's the middle of a trilogy with the structure that the heroes have to take some knocks in order to rise again in the final part. It's not as if things were a three ring circus at the end of Empire Strikes Back.
I'll give you Luke.
Rey - not so sure about - more torn about her connection to Ben, but of course the Director went with the easy story (as usual) rather than what happens if she is able to turn him away from dark side.
Finn - Nope capering comic relief with a love sick loony forcing her attentions on him
Rose - does she - or just force herself on confused guy she fancies
Poe - learns that he was following total idiots and is now stuck with the 20 survivors against a hostile galaxy
Leia - sees her resistance movement slaughtered in front of her eyes and the last remenants fleeing before the all conquering FO - dies knowing that no cares.
Clearly me and KillKrazy had a good time so don't go around making blanket statements about everyone.
None of those are fun beats. We could put Luke losing his hand on Bespin on that list. It isn't fun. But ESB does have fun, such as Han's daring asteroid belt piloting. Not to mention the tender if awkward romance between Leia and Han. And the entire sequence on Dagobah is about wonder and awe. Although Yoda is wise, he is also charming and delightful. Just listen to the score for these parts of ESB:
Spoiler:
Earth127 wrote: You're wrong Manchu, clearly me and KillKrazy had a good time so don't go around making blanket statements about everyone.
I'm not talking about audience members. I'm talking about the characters in the film.
Tell it to Rian "pointless plot digression" Johnson.
In TLJ we've got Poe versus Hux and the dreadnaught. We've got the Bight Casino breakout. We've got Rose awkwardly declaring her love.
Conversely the entire sequence on Dagobah can be seen as about mucking around in a miserable swamp, while Luke's island is an astonishing visual feast peopled with quirky creatures.
Kilkrazy wrote: In TLJ we've got Poe versus Hux. We've got the Bight Casino breakout. We've got Rose awkwardly declaring her love.
Beginning a SW film with a dumb crank call is maximum cringe. I didn't even understand what was happening at first. When it dawned on me that this was supposed to be funny I could feel my heart sink. (Remember, I walked into the theater thinking the movie would be at least as good as TFA.) What followed was a parade of steadily more gauche moments. By the time Rose Tico sexually harasses (or should that be assaults?) Finn near the end, I was well and truly flabbergasted. To call either moment fun beggars belief. I grant that BB-8's antics at the casino were meant to be light-hearted and he is a cute little droid. But nothing he does in TLJ has even a fraction of the charm of when he exchanges thumbs ups with Finn in TFA. Plus you are offering one-off gags in exchange for the major plot ideas I listed from ESB.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: Conversely the entire sequence on Dagobah can be seen as about mucking around in a miserable swamp
That's the point. Dagobah is not some kind of beautiful scenic spot. It is a miserable swamp. Likewise, Yoda is not a 'great warrior' in the conventional sense Luke expects; rather, he is a tiny green muppet. Luke isn't impressed by either the swamp or the little green guy. Yet this is the great Jedi master, this is his dojo, where the mysteries of the Force unfold before the young student. The mundane is revealed to be mystical.
Oh god, that crank call. I remember sitting there with the popcorn thinking....uh...this isn't particulary funny...and it's killing the tension. It made me immediately think of the worst prequel era nonsense. That's the thing about TLJ. It's a horrible blend of over the top attempts at cheap humor mixed with miserable subverting of what star wars is. I knew we said after TFA that we needed something new and different, but come on.
Luke conquers his demons, fights a legendary duel and is re-united with The Force.
Rey finds her true path.
Finn finds his courage. Rose finds love.
Poe learns a bit of responsibility.
Leia sees the Rebellion escape the jaws of death.
It's not a dance party, to be sure, but it's the middle of a trilogy with the structure that the heroes have to take some knocks in order to rise again in the final part. It's not as if things were a three ring circus at the end of Empire Strikes Back.
I disagree.
Rey finds what? she finds the books, is her path to be a thief?
Finn, tries to save the rebellion and decides to stand up for a cause that he finnaly feels a part of, then gets denied his grand act of heroism by his stalker.
Rose finds love the same way every stalker finds love.
Poe learns if you disobey orders, and start a mutiny you get ahead in the rebellion, because there are no consequences.
Leia sees the rebellion crushed as it dies like her brother.
It's going to have to be an amazing 9th movie to wrap up this trilogy in any sort of meaningful way. Judging from the first two, all I can imagine is:
Me: I want a good ending
JJ channeling luke: It's not going to end the way you think
Me: well then if I want a good ending, and it's not going to end that way, we can only conclude it's going to be a bad ending.
Also It has been tentatively confirmed that there is going to be a several year timeskip between 8 and 9.
Maybe so the 3 slave kids who actualy believe in the rebellion can join the other 20 people on their one ship and maybe some of them toy creatures from Luke Hidden Island of Sulking.
But hey at least this Johnson guy is not directing so it can't get worse - can it?
Oh and I read somewhere that the giant FO ship is only damaged.
Future War Cultist wrote: Oh god, that crank call. I remember sitting there with the popcorn thinking....uh...this isn't particulary funny...and it's killing the tension. It made me immediately think of the worst prequel era nonsense. That's the thing about TLJ. It's a horrible blend of over the top attempts at cheap humor mixed with miserable subverting of what star wars is. I knew we said after TFA that we needed something new and different, but come on.
I loved it. Do did my family. I actually laughed.
Just more proof that you can't please all of the people all of the time.
Everyone that's 'new' in the new movies seems less like a 'Star Wars' character and more like some teenage hipsters sarcastically roleplaying hastily-made Star Wars characters.
Something I've just noticed we spent most of this thread discussing a side plot of a side plot. Poe's strory is the tertiary one behind Rey's first and Finn's second.
Earth127 wrote: Something I've just noticed we spent most of this thread discussing a side plot of a side plot. Poe's strory is the tertiary one behind Rey's first and Finn's second.
That shows just how gripping her story (or lack of) is haha
I love that Rose is a stalker who forced herself on Finn, but Han Solo wasn't being a creep for cornering women on the falcon and forcing himself on them.
Lance845 wrote: I love that Rose is a stalker who forced herself on Finn, but Han Solo wasn't being a creep for cornering women on the falcon and forcing himself on them.
He was being a creep, who said he wasn't? both can be considered sexual assault.
Han is a little sleazy. Rose pretty much hypes out as soon as she realises who Finn is, then tazes him and starts going all creepy-crazy when she thinks he may be any less than perfect.
Then there is the whole sticking right next to him theme, and the ramming him out of the air when he was going to do something important (for the first time in the film). Oh, and forcing herself on him then.
Han acted sleazy, but had style and acted normal. From start to finish Rose acted like a deranged stalker.
The several year back between this and episode 9 will be to allow the writers to avoid having to explain how exactly the rebellion recovered from essentially being wiped out.
Also, how was that ship "only damaged"? It should be atoms, as should the solar system.
The whole Rose sexually assaults Finn is kind of like you coming up to me, giving me what you think is a friendly punch in the arm, and me calling the cops and trying to get you arrested for assault. Technically I'm right but most people would expect a "no, not cool" conversation and a similar physical follow up from you before thinking calling the cops wouldn't be an overreaction on my part.
Keep in mind that Leia does the whole surprise kiss thing twice on Luke, just off the top of my head. The surprise kiss gets a lot of use in movies. Generally, the other person's reaction tells us if they crossed line. In the case of Rose kissing Finn though, I think the whole "do I like this yes/no" thought is being completely overshadowed by the "oh crap, my friend might be dying". Awkward conversations can usually wait to see if the other person lives.
Skaorn wrote: The whole Rose sexually assaults Finn is kind of like you coming up to me, giving me what you think is a friendly punch in the arm, and me calling the cops and trying to get you arrested for assault. Technically I'm right but most people would expect a "no, not cool" conversation and a similar physical follow up from you before thinking calling the cops wouldn't be an overreaction on my part.
Keep in mind that Leia does the whole surprise kiss thing twice on Luke, just off the top of my head. The surprise kiss gets a lot of use in movies. Generally, the other person's reaction tells us if they crossed line. In the case of Rose kissing Finn though, I think the whole "do I like this yes/no" thought is being completely overshadowed by the "oh crap, my friend might be dying". Awkward conversations can usually wait to see if the other person lives.
han, luke and leia also had spent a large amount of time together. however much time passed between 4 & 5 before the kissing started. it was clear they all loved each other. Han was a dick though stepping in between luke and leia, and not even bothering to ask luke if he could date his sister.
Fin just met Rose that day, he goes off with her, spends a few hours with her in a casino while she lamenting the fate of those who live at a casino, then she risks the lives of the entire rebellion by stopping fin from taking out the big gun and declares her love for fin and kisses him. He just met that crazy girl who hit him with a cattle prod and did not share her feelings, he still loves ray and only went off with rose because he thought doing so would save ray. Rose is clearly a stalker.
As rose has not yet been signed for 9, we can assume she died.
Hey, hold on a minute, if L3 is a mockery of the SJW's, is rose just a mockery of the fans. falling in love with their hero's and acting like stalkers, throwing out proposals when they first see their hero in person? Did Rose take nudes of finn and cut his hair while he was out?
Skaorn wrote: The whole Rose sexually assaults Finn is kind of like you coming up to me, giving me what you think is a friendly punch in the arm, and me calling the cops and trying to get you arrested for assault. Technically I'm right but most people would expect a "no, not cool" conversation and a similar physical follow up from you before thinking calling the cops wouldn't be an overreaction on my part.
Keep in mind that Leia does the whole surprise kiss thing twice on Luke, just off the top of my head. The surprise kiss gets a lot of use in movies. Generally, the other person's reaction tells us if they crossed line. In the case of Rose kissing Finn though, I think the whole "do I like this yes/no" thought is being completely overshadowed by the "oh crap, my friend might be dying". Awkward conversations can usually wait to see if the other person lives.
han, luke and leia also had spent a large amount of time together. however much time passed between 4 & 5 before the kissing started. it was clear they all loved each other. Han was a dick though stepping in between luke and leia, and not even bothering to ask luke if he could date his sister.
Fin just met Rose that day, he goes off with her, spends a few hours with her in a casino while she lamenting the fate of those who live at a casino, then she risks the lives of the entire rebellion by stopping fin from taking out the big gun and declares her love for fin and kisses him. He just met that crazy girl who hit him with a cattle prod and did not share her feelings, he still loves ray and only went off with rose because he thought doing so would save ray. Rose is clearly a stalker.
As rose has not yet been signed for 9, we can assume she died.
How many movies have unlikely romances that are sparked between two characters over the course of an adventure that takes place over a brief period of time? Kind of a lot. How many movies are there that decide to have a main character suddenly kiss another during an emotional moment? A good amount there too, with a lot of overlap from the previous question. The the belief that Rose's kiss equals Sexual Assault is overreacting to a common event in many movies. The only major difference is that we don't know how he feels about it or even if he knows how to feel about it because he's more concerned that she might be dying at the moment. He could have said "bullet dodged" and left her there but instead he at least dragged her back and is later shown having some concern for her in the Falcon, so that's something. At what point would Finn have even gotten a chance to lay down that a boundary had been crossed. Now had Rose started kissing him after she had stunned him, then that is clearly sexual assault. Yes, it was a forced, awkward, and somewhat painful addition to the story but to call it sexual assault means that there are scores of movies just as bad.
Also Leia kisses Luke, right before swinging over a massive gap in the Death Star, shortly after having just met him and taking over his rescue. She kisses him again to obviously get spite Han in ESB.
Skaorn wrote: The whole Rose sexually assaults Finn is kind of like you coming up to me, giving me what you think is a friendly punch in the arm, and me calling the cops and trying to get you arrested for assault. Technically I'm right but most people would expect a "no, not cool" conversation and a similar physical follow up from you before thinking calling the cops wouldn't be an overreaction on my part.
Keep in mind that Leia does the whole surprise kiss thing twice on Luke, just off the top of my head. The surprise kiss gets a lot of use in movies. Generally, the other person's reaction tells us if they crossed line. In the case of Rose kissing Finn though, I think the whole "do I like this yes/no" thought is being completely overshadowed by the "oh crap, my friend might be dying". Awkward conversations can usually wait to see if the other person lives.
han, luke and leia also had spent a large amount of time together. however much time passed between 4 & 5 before the kissing started. it was clear they all loved each other. Han was a dick though stepping in between luke and leia, and not even bothering to ask luke if he could date his sister.
Fin just met Rose that day, he goes off with her, spends a few hours with her in a casino while she lamenting the fate of those who live at a casino, then she risks the lives of the entire rebellion by stopping fin from taking out the big gun and declares her love for fin and kisses him. He just met that crazy girl who hit him with a cattle prod and did not share her feelings, he still loves ray and only went off with rose because he thought doing so would save ray. Rose is clearly a stalker.
As rose has not yet been signed for 9, we can assume she died.
How many movies have unlikely romances that are sparked between two characters over the course of an adventure that takes place over a brief period of time? Kind of a lot. How many movies are there that decide to have a main character suddenly kiss another during an emotional moment? A good amount there too, with a lot of overlap from the previous question. The the belief that Rose's kiss equals Sexual Assault is overreacting to a common event in many movies. The only major difference is that we don't know how he feels about it or even if he knows how to feel about it because he's more concerned that she might be dying at the moment. He could have said "bullet dodged" and left her there but instead he at least dragged her back and is later shown having some concern for her in the Falcon, so that's something. At what point would Finn have even gotten a chance to lay down that a boundary had been crossed. Now had Rose started kissing him after she had stunned him, then that is clearly sexual assault. Yes, it was a forced, awkward, and somewhat painful addition to the story but to call it sexual assault means that there are scores of movies just as bad.
Also Leia kisses Luke, right before swinging over a massive gap in the Death Star, shortly after having just met him and taking over his rescue. She kisses him again to obviously get spite Han in ESB.
Yup. This is another one of those things where, for whatever reason, people are giving the female characters in this movie gak for being just like every other character they have cheered on for years.
Skaorn wrote: The whole Rose sexually assaults Finn is kind of like you coming up to me, giving me what you think is a friendly punch in the arm, and me calling the cops and trying to get you arrested for assault. Technically I'm right but most people would expect a "no, not cool" conversation and a similar physical follow up from you before thinking calling the cops wouldn't be an overreaction on my part.
Keep in mind that Leia does the whole surprise kiss thing twice on Luke, just off the top of my head. The surprise kiss gets a lot of use in movies. Generally, the other person's reaction tells us if they crossed line. In the case of Rose kissing Finn though, I think the whole "do I like this yes/no" thought is being completely overshadowed by the "oh crap, my friend might be dying". Awkward conversations can usually wait to see if the other person lives.
han, luke and leia also had spent a large amount of time together. however much time passed between 4 & 5 before the kissing started. it was clear they all loved each other. Han was a dick though stepping in between luke and leia, and not even bothering to ask luke if he could date his sister.
Fin just met Rose that day, he goes off with her, spends a few hours with her in a casino while she lamenting the fate of those who live at a casino, then she risks the lives of the entire rebellion by stopping fin from taking out the big gun and declares her love for fin and kisses him. He just met that crazy girl who hit him with a cattle prod and did not share her feelings, he still loves ray and only went off with rose because he thought doing so would save ray. Rose is clearly a stalker.
As rose has not yet been signed for 9, we can assume she died.
How many movies have unlikely romances that are sparked between two characters over the course of an adventure that takes place over a brief period of time? Kind of a lot. How many movies are there that decide to have a main character suddenly kiss another during an emotional moment? A good amount there too, with a lot of overlap from the previous question. The the belief that Rose's kiss equals Sexual Assault is overreacting to a common event in many movies. The only major difference is that we don't know how he feels about it or even if he knows how to feel about it because he's more concerned that she might be dying at the moment. He could have said "bullet dodged" and left her there but instead he at least dragged her back and is later shown having some concern for her in the Falcon, so that's something. At what point would Finn have even gotten a chance to lay down that a boundary had been crossed. Now had Rose started kissing him after she had stunned him, then that is clearly sexual assault. Yes, it was a forced, awkward, and somewhat painful addition to the story but to call it sexual assault means that there are scores of movies just as bad.
Also Leia kisses Luke, right before swinging over a massive gap in the Death Star, shortly after having just met him and taking over his rescue. She kisses him again to obviously get spite Han in ESB.
It's also how every stalker movie starts. so in 9 expect to see fin reject rose for rey, rose get's psycho about it and kills rey, tormenting fin until fin has to kill rose. Because it's not going to end the way we think it will, so obviously they're setting up for a fetal attraction ending.
forced and awkward the start of any great love story? no, the start of every stalker movie? yep. And I agree there are scores of movies just as bad.
@lance845 so you're condoning nonconsenual kissing? tsk tsk
Well, since you define Star Wars as rollicking, then yes, I would expect a Star Wars main sequence movie to be rollicking. Not frollicking, not moping, and DEFINITELY not subverting everything in sight for the troll-LOLZ.
Skaorn wrote: The whole Rose sexually assaults Finn is kind of like you coming up to me, giving me what you think is a friendly punch in the arm, and me calling the cops and trying to get you arrested for assault. Technically I'm right but most people would expect a "no, not cool" conversation and a similar physical follow up from you before thinking calling the cops wouldn't be an overreaction on my part.
Keep in mind that Leia does the whole surprise kiss thing twice on Luke, just off the top of my head. The surprise kiss gets a lot of use in movies. Generally, the other person's reaction tells us if they crossed line. In the case of Rose kissing Finn though, I think the whole "do I like this yes/no" thought is being completely overshadowed by the "oh crap, my friend might be dying". Awkward conversations can usually wait to see if the other person lives.
han, luke and leia also had spent a large amount of time together. however much time passed between 4 & 5 before the kissing started. it was clear they all loved each other. Han was a dick though stepping in between luke and leia, and not even bothering to ask luke if he could date his sister.
Fin just met Rose that day, he goes off with her, spends a few hours with her in a casino while she lamenting the fate of those who live at a casino, then she risks the lives of the entire rebellion by stopping fin from taking out the big gun and declares her love for fin and kisses him. He just met that crazy girl who hit him with a cattle prod and did not share her feelings, he still loves ray and only went off with rose because he thought doing so would save ray. Rose is clearly a stalker.
As rose has not yet been signed for 9, we can assume she died.
How many movies have unlikely romances that are sparked between two characters over the course of an adventure that takes place over a brief period of time? Kind of a lot. How many movies are there that decide to have a main character suddenly kiss another during an emotional moment? A good amount there too, with a lot of overlap from the previous question. The the belief that Rose's kiss equals Sexual Assault is overreacting to a common event in many movies. The only major difference is that we don't know how he feels about it or even if he knows how to feel about it because he's more concerned that she might be dying at the moment. He could have said "bullet dodged" and left her there but instead he at least dragged her back and is later shown having some concern for her in the Falcon, so that's something. At what point would Finn have even gotten a chance to lay down that a boundary had been crossed. Now had Rose started kissing him after she had stunned him, then that is clearly sexual assault. Yes, it was a forced, awkward, and somewhat painful addition to the story but to call it sexual assault means that there are scores of movies just as bad.
Also Leia kisses Luke, right before swinging over a massive gap in the Death Star, shortly after having just met him and taking over his rescue. She kisses him again to obviously get spite Han in ESB.
Yup. This is another one of those things where, for whatever reason, people are giving the female characters in this movie gak for being just like every other character they have cheered on for years.
Or you know... we’re taking the piss out of an awkward moment, just like we’ve taken the piss out off all the other awkward moments in other movies for years, ever seen James Bond? All the cringy moments through those movies that people like mocking, or Harry Potter ...
Perhaps instead of a pointless excursion to Casio World, the pair of idiots could have found that it was hosting the leaders of conquered worlds being wined and dined by the FO, selling out their people.
Ooh, that would have been a good twist! Way better than 'save the critters, leave the slave kids'.
None of those are fun beats. We could put Luke losing his hand on Bespin on that list. It isn't fun. But ESB does have fun, such as Han's daring asteroid belt piloting. Not to mention the tender if awkward romance between Leia and Han. And the entire sequence on Dagobah is about wonder and awe. Although Yoda is wise, he is also charming and delightful. Just listen to the score for these parts of ESB:
Spoiler:
Earth127 wrote: You're wrong Manchu, clearly me and KillKrazy had a good time so don't go around making blanket statements about everyone.
I'm not talking about audience members. I'm talking about the characters in the film.
Tell it to Rian "pointless plot digression" Johnson.
In TLJ we've got Poe versus Hux and the dreadnaught. We've got the Bight Casino breakout. We've got Rose awkwardly declaring her love.
Conversely the entire sequence on Dagobah can be seen as about mucking around in a miserable swamp, while Luke's island is an astonishing visual feast peopled with quirky creatures.
Poe and Hux isn't funny, it's cringeworthy.
Canto Bight breakout is pointless and unnecessary; all they had to do was park their ship in the tall grass on top of the plateau instead of on the beach - or better yet, why not at the spaceport - and everything goes smoothly. It's also rather boring after the Trench Run, Pod Racing, and coming out of hyperspace within a planetary shield.
And sexual assault is funny? Imagine if it had been Finn (or better yet Poe) forcing that kiss on Rose and tell me it's still funny.
Skaorn wrote: The whole Rose sexually assaults Finn is kind of like you coming up to me, giving me what you think is a friendly punch in the arm, and me calling the cops and trying to get you arrested for assault. Technically I'm right but most people would expect a "no, not cool" conversation and a similar physical follow up from you before thinking calling the cops wouldn't be an overreaction on my part.
Keep in mind that Leia does the whole surprise kiss thing twice on Luke, just off the top of my head. The surprise kiss gets a lot of use in movies. Generally, the other person's reaction tells us if they crossed line. In the case of Rose kissing Finn though, I think the whole "do I like this yes/no" thought is being completely overshadowed by the "oh crap, my friend might be dying". Awkward conversations can usually wait to see if the other person lives.
han, luke and leia also had spent a large amount of time together. however much time passed between 4 & 5 before the kissing started. it was clear they all loved each other. Han was a dick though stepping in between luke and leia, and not even bothering to ask luke if he could date his sister.
Fin just met Rose that day, he goes off with her, spends a few hours with her in a casino while she lamenting the fate of those who live at a casino, then she risks the lives of the entire rebellion by stopping fin from taking out the big gun and declares her love for fin and kisses him. He just met that crazy girl who hit him with a cattle prod and did not share her feelings, he still loves ray and only went off with rose because he thought doing so would save ray. Rose is clearly a stalker.
As rose has not yet been signed for 9, we can assume she died.
How many movies have unlikely romances that are sparked between two characters over the course of an adventure that takes place over a brief period of time? Kind of a lot. How many movies are there that decide to have a main character suddenly kiss another during an emotional moment? A good amount there too, with a lot of overlap from the previous question. The the belief that Rose's kiss equals Sexual Assault is overreacting to a common event in many movies. The only major difference is that we don't know how he feels about it or even if he knows how to feel about it because he's more concerned that she might be dying at the moment. He could have said "bullet dodged" and left her there but instead he at least dragged her back and is later shown having some concern for her in the Falcon, so that's something. At what point would Finn have even gotten a chance to lay down that a boundary had been crossed. Now had Rose started kissing him after she had stunned him, then that is clearly sexual assault. Yes, it was a forced, awkward, and somewhat painful addition to the story but to call it sexual assault means that there are scores of movies just as bad.
Also Leia kisses Luke, right before swinging over a massive gap in the Death Star, shortly after having just met him and taking over his rescue. She kisses him again to obviously get spite Han in ESB.
Yup. This is another one of those things where, for whatever reason, people are giving the female characters in this movie gak for being just like every other character they have cheered on for years.
Correction. For being an UNLIKEABLE character, more than anything else.
Which is why we're so down on pretty much the whole movie.
Lance845 wrote: Yup. This is another one of those things where, for whatever reason, people are giving the female characters in this movie gak for being just like every other character they have cheered on for years.
"For whatever reason"
I'd love to hear some of your theories on the matter.
Demonstrably, Rey is not like Luke. People tore into Jar-Jar far worse than Rose. People also slammed Hayden Christensen as Anakin and a lot about that character's progression through the prequels. Others have cited many complaints about a multitude of characters, up to and including all the male characters in the newer movies.
So please, along with your theory about 'why', I'd love to see why you only see very specific complaints people have.
Lance845 wrote: Yup. This is another one of those things where, for whatever reason, people are giving the female characters in this movie gak for being just like every other character they have cheered on for years.
"For whatever reason"
I'd love to hear some of your theories on the matter.
Demonstrably, Rey is not like Luke. People tore into Jar-Jar far worse than Rose. People also slammed Hayden Christensen as Anakin and a lot about that character's progression through the prequels. Others have cited many complaints about a multitude of characters, up to and including all the male characters in the newer movies.
So please, along with your theory about 'why', I'd love to see why you only see very specific complaints people have.
Well, we didnt like the movie so obviously we must all be evil straight white male MRA's who cannot stand to see strong independent female characters succeeding!
To be clear, I don't think RJ intended to portray Rose as a pest forcing herself on Finn. Seems to me he intended her to be cute and charming, a bit like how Lucas probably intended Anakin to be a heart throb. But, again like Anakin, Rose comes across as creepy. Maybe if this movie came out 25 years ago, it would be received differently. But today we're dealing with a context of hypersensitivity about unwanted sexual attentions. At best, it's cringey.
master of ordinance wrote: Well, we didnt like the movie so obviously we must all be evil straight white male MRA's who cannot stand to see strong independent female characters succeeding!
Obviously. Considering this movie is totally groundbreaking and the first of its kind to feature a female protagonist and all. I'll be damned if we let this happen to science fiction on my watch!
Lance845 wrote: Yup. This is another one of those things where, for whatever reason, people are giving the female characters in this movie gak for being just like every other character they have cheered on for years.
"For whatever reason"
I'd love to hear some of your theories on the matter.
Demonstrably, Rey is not like Luke. People tore into Jar-Jar far worse than Rose. People also slammed Hayden Christensen as Anakin and a lot about that character's progression through the prequels. Others have cited many complaints about a multitude of characters, up to and including all the male characters in the newer movies.
So please, along with your theory about 'why', I'd love to see why you only see very specific complaints people have.
Well, we didnt like the movie so obviously we must all be evil straight white male MRA's who cannot stand to see strong independent female characters succeeding!
The racial slur you used earlier in the thread undermines your credibility.
