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I was also unaware that the empire existed still.

 Mr Morden wrote:

I had no idea about that from the films - I just assumed the Repblic won and the empire died and "from its ashes arose the FO?"

I got a headache from reading the Aftermath books... Coruscant was still capital of the Empire and Mas Amedda as vizier was technically ruling it, but was essentially imprisoned in his own chambers by certain elements of the Imperial navy (who had been tasked by Palpatine to bring the whole thing crashing down in the event of his demise). Some kids found a way into his quarters and smuggled him out, where he was able to get offworld and sign a treaty with the Republic, bringing an end to the war, which led to an enfeebled Empire and Mon Mothma disarming the Republic in response.

Even 'Truce at Bakura' was a better Endor follow up.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I had no idea about that from the films - I just assumed the Repblic won and the empire died and "from its ashes arose the FO?"

 Lance845 wrote:
I was also unaware that the empire existed still.

TFA was horrible on this score and TLJ had no interest in correcting the matter.

Mr Morden wrote:[
but isn't this the super intetelectual vision of how film making should be done (as per the critics) shouldn't this apparently god like subversion of the narrative at least say something about the FO?

Yeah, the Empire still controls, and is confined to, most of the Core Worlds and Inner Rim. The treaty just prevents them from recruiting and mobilizing Stormtroopers, and they had to disband the Imperial Academies. Oh and Coruscant was ceded to the Republic.

I had no idea about that from the films - I just assumed the Repblic won and the empire died and "from its ashes arose the FO?"

Lance845 wrote:I was also unaware that the empire existed still.

So, technically there are two Imperial Remnants, one that is happy(ish) in the territory they still have, complete with a functioning navy and everything (except stormtroopers). Then there's the other group of "Hardliners" who ran off and helped create the First Order.

I genuinely don’t know how to feel about this.

 Manchu wrote:
TFA was horrible on this score and TLJ had no interest in correcting the matter.

Yeah. I think that maybe one of things that is causing the more 'dedicated' elements of the SW fanbase to fail to get behind the new sequels is that some of us spent years reading about the development of the galaxy after RotJ and regardless of the quality of the story there was a central narrative that kept things ticking over. Disney ejected all of it in one fell swoop, and fans were anxious to see what exactly was replacing this story that had built up. Well, it was nothing, really. "Decades have passed and there are no obvious steps that bring us from RotJ to here.".

Humans use stories to make sense of the world (including fictional worlds) and the narrative of the post-Jedi SW galaxy has objectively become vaguer than it was (and suddenly unfamiliar to readers of the previous canon).

I think it is neat and creates some potential for cool stories. JJ was probably pretty shy of talking about politics very much thanks to the backlash against the PT. But TFA was unnecessarily mawkish on this score and should have followed ANH's example (about the only thing TFA failed to ape from ANH). TLJ would have to be a completely different movie (and it should have been) to address these issues.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I genuinely don’t know how to feel about this.

You'll have to wait for the full story coming soon in TK-421: A Star Wars Story, in which the naive young trooper gets thrown off the Death Star and transferred to Coruscant just in time, and subseuently stays in the corps long enough to see the collapse of the Empire first hand. Retiring from the military after the peace accords, TK-421, or "Teekay" as she renames herself (having decided to identify as a woman), takes up a new career in mouse droid racing. The film follows Teekay as she climbs the ranks of the professional circuit, racing all across the Empire's diminishing territory, when a mysterous call goes out for only the finest mouse droid racers to gather way out in the galactic rim for the inaugural First Order Grand Prix, (brought to you by Snoka-cola). Disaster strikes on the eve of the big race as Teekay's mouse droid is sabotaged by Hux Dastardly. Can Teekay overcome technical shenanigans and inherent anti-trans bias to win the most coveted prize in racing?

Coming Christmas 2022... TK-421: A Star Wars Story

(because Star Wars needs to hit some of the genre films before the MCU gets to them, and the 80s montage-centric sports genre is still up for grabs)

You are a true visionary Riquende. I think you should replace Rian Johnson on this new trilogy.

...I’d watch that.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

its actually difficult to say as neither director could be bothered to make anything up about what if anything the FO stood for. They are just the "Evil Empire"

That's a standard trope. The audience doesn't need an explanation. Most of the audience don't care about the backstory. Lucas was equally slack about developing the backstory of the Empire in A New Hope. No-one cared.

The ironic thing is that lots of modern people know so little about the history of the real Nazis until it gets to WW2.

but isn't this the super intetelectual vision of how film making should be done (as per the critics) shouldn't this apparently god like subversion of the narrative at least say something about the FO?

...

No. It's the utterly normal way that films are made.

They are based on widely understood symbols and patterns in visual and audio design. For example, good cowboys wear light coloured hats, and bad cowboys wear dark ones. Music for heroes is uplifting. Sad music is in a minor key. And so on.

There are patterns and tropes in modern work that date back over 2,500 years to ancient Greek drama.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you are looking for an intellectual film, check out Arrival, most of which is concerned with the detection and comprehension of patterns of lexis in alien text.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I actively want the First Order to win. The characters on all sides now are so unlikeable and the New Republic has been exposed to be so corrupt and hypocritical that I'm inclined to agree with Kylo Ren. Forget the past - kill it if you have to.

Burn the galaxy. EXTERMINATUS

Yeah, that might get me to watch IX. Kylo Ren is the only character that's shown any growth or story arc at all so far. Might as well make him the antihero of the series.

 Manchu wrote:
To move away from how desperately bad TLJ is for a moment, one thing I notice about the scores for both TFA and TLJ is that they studiously avoid the Imperial March. I think this contributes to the suspicion that the FO is a counterfeit Empire. Do you reckon we will see the actual post-RotJ Empire at some point, and maybe they will for example help the Resistance get back on their feet because they sense how dangerous the FO is to the galaxy at large, especially absent the New Republic, and maybe then we will hear a sort of heroic version of the Imperial March?

I think it's worth pointing out that the Imperial March is more specifically Vader's theme. So, we should really only be hearing it when Vader is somehow involved.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

I think it's worth pointing out that the Imperial March is more specifically Vader's theme. So, we should really only be hearing it when Vader is somehow involved.

It's just the song that plays in Imperial recruitment ads.

 Manchu wrote:
Yes the FO is a breakaway from the mainline Imperial successor state, which is still ruled from Coruscant as far as I understand.

None of that comes across in the films. It would be nice not to have to read outside sources to understand the basics of the setting.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

its actually difficult to say as neither director could be bothered to make anything up about what if anything the FO stood for. They are just the "Evil Empire"

That's a standard trope. The audience doesn't need an explanation. Most of the audience don't care about the backstory. Lucas was equally slack about developing the backstory of the Empire in A New Hope. No-one cared.

The ironic thing is that lots of modern people know so little about the history of the real Nazis until it gets to WW2.

but isn't this the super intetelectual vision of how film making should be done (as per the critics) shouldn't this apparently god like subversion of the narrative at least say something about the FO?

...

No. It's the utterly normal way that films are made.

They are based on widely understood symbols and patterns in visual and audio design. For example, good cowboys wear light coloured hats, and bad cowboys wear dark ones. Music for heroes is uplifting. Sad music is in a minor key. And so on.

There are patterns and tropes in modern work that date back over 2,500 years to ancient Greek drama.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you are looking for an intellectual film, check out Arrival, most of which is concerned with the detection and comprehension of patterns of lexis in alien text.

While correct, most of these centuries-old symbols and dramatic devices were never intended for a chronological series of films which has continued for decades, with a die-hard fanbase, and a very rich lore and history built up entirely in that fictional world.

Yes, creating new universes and settings would absolutely benefit from the tried and tested "generic" signalling, but a continually running story with characters and a world we're already invested in proably should be explained how the resolution from one got to another. Unfortunately, both TFA and TLJ both do this.

In TFA, we see the First Order come about somehow. What are they in relation to the universe we've already established?
In TLJ, we see the First Order somehow acting as the dominant power, despite losing what is implied to be a vast amount of manpower and materiel on Starkiller Base, and the New Republic losing a handful of planets?

One thing I would like to point out, in regard to the hyperspace ramming, is that the entire solar system should have ceased to exist when it happened.
Based upon the assumed mass (from what we see) of the ramming ship and its target, and on the principle that ramming at such vast speeds would cause atomic fission on a vast scale, the two ships should become a brief neutron star and wipe the solar system of backwatermcgee off of the solar charts.

Just for reference that is two ships, a capital and a super capital, being used as reaction mass in an extremely efficient and all consuming nuclear detonation. At this point you are measuring the resulting death wave in gigamiles.

 master of ordinance wrote:
One thing I would like to point out, in regard to the hyperspace ramming, is that the entire solar system should have ceased to exist when it happened.
Based upon the assumed mass (from what we see) of the ramming ship and its target, and on the principle that ramming at such vast speeds would cause atomic fission on a vast scale, the two ships should become a brief neutron star and wipe the solar system of backwatermcgee off of the solar charts.

Just for reference that is two ships, a capital and a super capital, being used as reaction mass in an extremely efficient and all consuming nuclear detonation. At this point you are measuring the resulting death wave in gigamiles.

Yes. Lets try to calculate real world physics in a universe where a teenager can jump out of a speeder going hundreds of miles an hour, fall hundreds of feet, land in another speeder going hundreds of miles an hour in a different direction, and not do damage to both himself and the speeder he hit.

 Lance845 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
One thing I would like to point out, in regard to the hyperspace ramming, is that the entire solar system should have ceased to exist when it happened.
Based upon the assumed mass (from what we see) of the ramming ship and its target, and on the principle that ramming at such vast speeds would cause atomic fission on a vast scale, the two ships should become a brief neutron star and wipe the solar system of backwatermcgee off of the solar charts.

Just for reference that is two ships, a capital and a super capital, being used as reaction mass in an extremely efficient and all consuming nuclear detonation. At this point you are measuring the resulting death wave in gigamiles.

Yes. Lets try to calculate real world physics in a universe where a teenager can jump out of a speeder going hundreds of miles an hour, fall hundreds of feet, land in another speeder going hundreds of miles an hour in a different direction, and not do damage to both himself and the speeder he hit.

Well, there is a tad difference between an accomplished force user and a hundred miles an hour, and an non user and FTL speeds.

Not to mention it would have been a fitting end for the Rebels, instead of crippling them to a mere 12 members, and now either requiring Writer Fiat or a mercy kill, as they chose to do so instead. And then maybe we could focus on the Empire instead, with the old Empire rapidly re-arming and mobilising in order to face off against the major threat posed by the First Order., Now that would make for an interesting story arc.

Nevermind. Replying to a comment that had already been addressed. Darn computer doesn't update threads on real time.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
One thing I would like to point out, in regard to the hyperspace ramming, is that the entire solar system should have ceased to exist when it happened.
Based upon the assumed mass (from what we see) of the ramming ship and its target, and on the principle that ramming at such vast speeds would cause atomic fission on a vast scale, the two ships should become a brief neutron star and wipe the solar system of backwatermcgee off of the solar charts.

Just for reference that is two ships, a capital and a super capital, being used as reaction mass in an extremely efficient and all consuming nuclear detonation. At this point you are measuring the resulting death wave in gigamiles.

Yes. Lets try to calculate real world physics in a universe where a teenager can jump out of a speeder going hundreds of miles an hour, fall hundreds of feet, land in another speeder going hundreds of miles an hour in a different direction, and not do damage to both himself and the speeder he hit.

Well, there is a tad difference between an accomplished force user and a hundred miles an hour, and an non user and FTL speeds.

Not to mention it would have been a fitting end for the Rebels, instead of crippling them to a mere 12 members, and now either requiring Writer Fiat or a mercy kill, as they chose to do so instead. And then maybe we could focus on the Empire instead, with the old Empire rapidly re-arming and mobilising in order to face off against the major threat posed by the First Order., Now that would make for an interesting story arc.

You would need to imply that anakin was not JUST using the force to stop the forward momentum of the speeder he landed on from turning him into paste but also his downward momentum AND use the force to keep the speeder from exploding into shrapnel from being hit by an aparently impervious to blunt force trama chosen one.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
One thing I would like to point out, in regard to the hyperspace ramming, is that the entire solar system should have ceased to exist when it happened.
Based upon the assumed mass (from what we see) of the ramming ship and its target, and on the principle that ramming at such vast speeds would cause atomic fission on a vast scale, the two ships should become a brief neutron star and wipe the solar system of backwatermcgee off of the solar charts.

Just for reference that is two ships, a capital and a super capital, being used as reaction mass in an extremely efficient and all consuming nuclear detonation. At this point you are measuring the resulting death wave in gigamiles.

Yes. Lets try to calculate real world physics in a universe where a teenager can jump out of a speeder going hundreds of miles an hour, fall hundreds of feet, land in another speeder going hundreds of miles an hour in a different direction, and not do damage to both himself and the speeder he hit.

Well, there is a tad difference between an accomplished force user and a hundred miles an hour, and an non user and FTL speeds.

Not to mention it would have been a fitting end for the Rebels, instead of crippling them to a mere 12 members, and now either requiring Writer Fiat or a mercy kill, as they chose to do so instead. And then maybe we could focus on the Empire instead, with the old Empire rapidly re-arming and mobilising in order to face off against the major threat posed by the First Order., Now that would make for an interesting story arc.

You're arguing against fictional physics with theoretical physics.

The physics of it is less problematic than it being universe breaking (as in, not literally destroying the universe, but breaking the consistency of it). If it's a viable tactic to do that then all space battles in SW should have just been launching FTL torpedoes at each other as any other tactic is much less efficient.

"Because space magic" is a legitimate excuse for anything in a world like SW, the problem comes when "because space magic" breaks internal consistency or logic and is used as a patch up over poor writing.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I think it's worth pointing out that the Imperial March is more specifically Vader's theme. So, we should really only be hearing it when Vader is somehow involved.

This is a point of confusion, mostly resulting from marketing. The theme is used in ESB and RotJ to refer to both Vader specifically and the Empire generally. It is used in TPM to foreshadow Anakin's dark destiny. It is used in AotC to indicate the origins of the Empire as the clone legions march into troop transports under Chancellor Palpatine's gaze. A version is used in Solo as in-setting Imperial propaganda. And of course there was no Imperial March in ANH, which Lucas could have but did not change in 1997 or 2004 or 2011, despite Vader appearing throughout.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
... ... and so on
In TFA, we see the First Order come about somehow. What are they in relation to the universe we've already established?
In TLJ, we see the First Order somehow acting as the dominant power, despite losing what is implied to be a vast amount of manpower and materiel on Starkiller Base, and the New Republic losing a handful of planets?

Star Wars is a "rollicking space yarn". It deals with sweeping grand themes and symbols.

The Evil Empire wouldn't be much of an enemy if it fell over after its first defeat.

We don't need an analysis of their command structure and logistical capability. We can see that they aren't defeated by the fact that we are shown they are undefeated.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
None of that comes across in the films. It would be nice not to have to read outside sources to understand the basics of the setting.

You're preaching to the choir.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Star Wars is a "rollicking space yarn". It deals with sweeping grand themes and symbols.

Could be read as an indictment against TLJ. There is nothing rollicking about that movie.

Do you want it to be rollicking?

Star Wars is a "rollicking space yarn". It deals with sweeping grand themes and symbols.

Well it was a set of three good fun films which was followed by three terrible rpequals now one not as good but fun sequal and one terrible sequal

The Evil Empire wouldn't be much of an enemy if it fell over after its first defeat.

True but the lack of ambition of the director shows here, he is happy just to ape (badly) previous filsm whilst having no content or ideas of his own. Its sad that he was not able to reach beyond a few basic tennents and lazy writing to try and make something exciting and interesting.

We don't need an analysis of their command structure and logistical capability. We can see that they aren't defeated by the fact that we are shown they are undefeated.

Again a decent director knows that show don't tell is the way - rather than filllng up screen time with the Chase of Tedium he could have shown a few moments of the Frist Order rising and crushing the Republic or if he truely wanted to be as subverting as people costantly claim then have them marching triamphantly across world with compliant governments coloborating - as it is we are left with the vague idea that the Republic must have been worse than the Empire as it falls overnight and absolutely no one (except maybe a few hundred people and some slave kids later) cares.

Perhaps instead of a pointless excursion to Casio World, the pair of idiots could have found that it was hosting the leaders of conquered worlds being wined and dined by the FO, selling out their people.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Do you want it to be rollicking?

Yes, I agree that SW ought to be a rollicking yarn all in all. These are first and foremost adventure movies. The one thing TPM and AotC have over RotS is, well, a sense of fun. RotS of course had to strike some very dark notes given the nature of the story. But we can all agree the prequels could have been handled better. A big part of how TFA redeemed the SW brand at the cinema and earned audience trust was by showing likeable characters having a good time. No one has a good time in TLJ.

I disagree.

Luke conquers his demons, fights a legendary duel and is re-united with The Force.
Rey finds her true path.
Finn finds his courage.
Rose finds love.
Poe learns a bit of responsibility.
Leia sees the Rebellion escape the jaws of death.

It's not a dance party, to be sure, but it's the middle of a trilogy with the structure that the heroes have to take some knocks in order to rise again in the final part. It's not as if things were a three ring circus at the end of Empire Strikes Back.

You're wrong Manchu, clearly me and KillKrazy had a good time so don't go around making blanket statements about everyone.

Show don't tell has its limits. If you don't know something of the montage going on it's mostly pointless. Stick to less storylines. The jedi-killing montage works because these are characters we have seen before. We already had a visual in TLJ of the repulic being evaporrated by starkilller. After that we're told there's no more fleet to cover the rebels.

You're right we shouldn't need expanded canon or novelization to explain stuff. But I'll repeat you can't ignore scenes just because we don't like them.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also It has been tentatively confirmed that there is going to be a several year timeskip between 8 and 9.