Lance845 wrote: Also, stop criticizing the people who liked it fot getting defensive if your every post about disliking the movie is going to include broad generalizations and attacks on the people who enjoyed it.
Let's be fair here. A lot of the fans who were being defensive started out by going on a good offensive. Even though I really liked TLJ, I've found myself arguing on the "haters" side because the superfans have been so condescending and unreasonable. You might not have been the one with the beam in his own eye, but you're certainly not helping when you keep harping on the motes in others' eyes.
I mostly believe that the whole Mary Sue thing just doesn't exist. I am arguing that iIF Rey is a Mary Sue the so is everyone else of any consequence in SW. You cannot give everyone else a pass for having the same thing
Then one does not understand what a mary sue is and this argument is basically "Everyone's a mary sue if Rey is!" Which is just trying to protect a bad character.
The thing that establishes it is the final shot of TLJ. When a small kid uses force pull to put the broom in his hand. Anyone can be powerful in the force. It doesn't have to come from anywhere. We are following exceptional people in the movie because exceptional people are interesting.
Which breaks established canon if that were true. Anyone can be powerful in the force so long as they have the potential for it. Otherwise everyone in the Galaxy is able to summon force lightning by sheer will.. Which is not how it works.
I miss the days when the force was like Chi or Kundalini or something...when everyone had the potential to use it and could learn to wield it through years of hard work, dedication and enlightenment, when it was a natural talent that needed to be developed and some lucky few were born gifted prodigies.
Lance845 wrote: Also, stop criticizing the people who liked it fot getting defensive if your every post about disliking the movie is going to include broad generalizations and attacks on the people who enjoyed it.
Let's be fair here. A lot of the fans who were being defensive started out by going on a good offensive. Even though I really liked TLJ, I've found myself arguing on the "haters" side because the superfans have been so condescending and unreasonable. You might not have been the one with the beam in his own eye, but you're certainly not helping when you keep harping on the motes in others' eyes.
Lets be REALLY fair. Idiots exist on all sides of every disagreement ever and all the idiots on all sides are antagonistic. Just because the idiots who disagree with you acted like dicks doesn't mean the correct response is to act like a dick back.
Here, in this place, with these discussions, if you choose to respond to the other side by making broad generalizations and derogatory remarks then you are one of the idiots on your side. 2 wrongs don't make a right. They did it first is not a valid excuse. You are responsible for your own actions.
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: I miss the days when the force was like Chi or Kundalini or something...when everyone had the potential to use it and could learn to wield it through years of hard work, dedication and enlightenment, when it was a natural talent that needed to be developed and some lucky few were born gifted prodigies.
I feel like thats where they are trying to get it back to. I feel like thats what Rey is.
I liked TLJ a lot better than I liked TFA. I'm not saying it was a good movie by any stretch of the imagination, but I have seen a lot worse. I actually was able to enjoy it for what it was which is something I can't say for TFA, which left me thinking "can we end this already". TFA was just a retelling of ANH only trying to be bigger and badder and with Abrahm's usual heavy helping of daddy issues. It actually found it drowned out one of the things I thought Lucas was good at, set design and making me feel like I'm seeing a story set in a big galaxy.
What I Liked: cranky Luke was great. I really enjoyed him, I liked the scene with R2 unleashing the hologram on him, I liked Yoda messing with him, and I liked him beating Kylo by trolling him.
I also liked that they did more with different locations and really bringing out more aliens and wild life than I remember seeing in TFA. It felt more like a SW movie.
The Snoke fight scene was kinda fun.
What I did not like: everyone seems to go on about how incompetent the resistance is, but the 1st Order is probably even worse. The only person in the movie who displayed any tactical sense admittedly was the dreadnaught captain who realized that he should have scrambled fighters already. In fact all the cruisers should have and provided covering fire for the dreadnaught. Why not call to other fleets to send some vessels to try and encircle the fleeing resistance since they can't jump to hyperspace? The list goes on and on, on both sides.
Hyperspace tracking and ramming. So everyone immediately accepts that tracking through hyperspace is the obvious answer to why the 1st Order can track them. I would have probably assumed a spy myself would be more likely. It would have explained why Holdo wasn't telling people her plan too, but whatever. It also kind of kills one important aspect of ship battles in SW, especially when gravity well projectors are canon, and why would you only have one ship doing the tracking? Of course this not as dramatically as hyperspace ramming. Hell, with droids you could do that a lot without any heroic sacrifices needed.
The heroes really accomplish nothing. They blow up a big ship and it gets replaced by a bigger ship. They try to go about disabling the tracker but get caught. Rei can't finish her training or turn Kyle. They reach Craat but are ignored by their allies. Even Luke just stalls for time but ultimately dies.
It's a retelling of ESB, but at least it's less blatant about it than TFA was with ANH.
The vehicles kinda stunk: either they were reskins or they were the bomber and the skimmer. The bomber... okay, we're going with WWII style bombers rather than the Y-Wing or B-Wing style. They do know that those first few armed bombs will be going slower out into 0g than the ones near the top, right? Also, I get it was pretty, but even Luke on Tatoonie had a flying car. It didn't need a ski.
Finally we have the villains: I have no problem with not-Emperor clone getting taken out like that. We saw it before, we knew it would happen again. The guys I have issue with are General Incompetence Hux and Kylo Temper Tantrum Ren. How am I supposed to take the bad guys seriously when these guys are in charge. How did Hux even survive TFA? Every time I see him in action I imagine Anakin appearing to Kylo as a blue ghost saying "I can't tell you what I would have done with him, since I reformed. Rhymes with horse bloke." Kylo wants to be grandpa so much, you'd think he would have learned how to weed out the incompetent early on. Also maybe tried to pretend he had some of his self control. A villian who just acts like he needs a time out does nothing for me.
MVP (this is going to be fun): Holdo, and I'll tell you why. She took a bullet and saved the reputation of a major republic hero. Had Admiral Akbar not died, he would have been in her place, making the same bad calls because that was what the writers called for. At least he got to die with some dignity and not get ruined. Honestly though, I don't see what the big deal with her is, you could have put any man, woman, or child in that role and it would have been exactly the same unless allowed to freely ad lib.
Other notes: I have no problem with Rei having an ability with the force that rises to match Kylo despite being a nobody. I mean the force made a force Jesus, so anything goes.
The only thing that will make me angry at this point will if they explain Princess Leiah's death in 9 as her dying of a broken heart.
What I want to see from a SW movie: The Jedi/Sith war that started of with the Mandaloreans acting as a vanguard for the Sith.
Reflexes and actual force powers are not the same thing.
A central plot point of TPM is that Anakin couldn't podrace without being strong in the force. He even exclaims "Now this is podracing!" while blowing up the droid control ship.
Maybe people are forgetting they might no longer be the target audience. I mean when I got into Star Wars in the 90s I was born in 93. So I grew up liking the OT and was there for the full swing of the prequels. While I loved the prequels as a kid I can fully acknowledge all the problems they have.
But now in 2018...I feel like these movies are not being made for me. Maybe i've outgrown Star Wars. To me TLJ felt like a movie I would have loved when I was ten, but now...it just feels like a childish romp with politically correct messages shelved in. BR2049 was made for the me of today, along with Annihilation and more mature contemplative sci fi...and i'm hoping the upcoming Dune reboot will be like what Villeneuve said it would be...star wars for adults.
Thargrim wrote: Maybe people are forgetting they might no longer be the target audience. I mean when I got into Star Wars in the 90s I was born in 93. So I grew up liking the OT and was there for the full swing of the prequels. While I loved the prequels as a kid I can fully acknowledge all the problems they have.
But now in 2018...I feel like these movies are not being made for me. Maybe i've outgrown Star Wars. To me TLJ felt like a movie I would have loved when I was ten, but now...it just feels like a childish romp with politically correct messages shelved in. BR2049 was made for the me of today, along with Annihilation and more mature contemplative sci fi...and i'm hoping the upcoming Dune reboot will be like what Villeneuve said it would be...star wars for adults.
Lance845 wrote: Also, stop criticizing the people who liked it fot getting defensive if your every post about disliking the movie is going to include broad generalizations and attacks on the people who enjoyed it.
Let's be fair here. A lot of the fans who were being defensive started out by going on a good offensive. Even though I really liked TLJ, I've found myself arguing on the "haters" side because the superfans have been so condescending and unreasonable. You might not have been the one with the beam in his own eye, but you're certainly not helping when you keep harping on the motes in others' eyes.
Lets be REALLY fair. Idiots exist on all sides of every disagreement ever and all the idiots on all sides are antagonistic. Just because the idiots who disagree with you acted like dicks doesn't mean the correct response is to act like a dick back.
Here, in this place, with these discussions, if you choose to respond to the other side by making broad generalizations and derogatory remarks then you are one of the idiots on your side. 2 wrongs don't make a right. They did it first is not a valid excuse. You are responsible for your own actions.
oh, I've done my best not to insult any poster here. I'm just pointing out that this topic is becoming frustrating for both sides and, other than a certain crunchy poster who was exceedingly rude, you've been one of the posters most escalating the disagreement.
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: I miss the days when the force was like Chi or Kundalini or something...when everyone had the potential to use it and could learn to wield it through years of hard work, dedication and enlightenment, when it was a natural talent that needed to be developed and some lucky few were born gifted prodigies.
I feel like thats where they are trying to get it back to. I feel like thats what Rey is.
See, I liked RJ's approach to the Force...right up until it became an inescapable cycle of light chasing dark chasing light with absolutely no hope for a better tomorrow that won't end in ashes.
Thargrim wrote: Maybe people are forgetting they might no longer be the target audience. I mean when I got into Star Wars in the 90s I was born in 93. So I grew up liking the OT and was there for the full swing of the prequels. While I loved the prequels as a kid I can fully acknowledge all the problems they have.
But now in 2018...I feel like these movies are not being made for me. Maybe i've outgrown Star Wars. To me TLJ felt like a movie I would have loved when I was ten, but now...it just feels like a childish romp with politically correct messages shelved in. BR2049 was made for the me of today, along with Annihilation and more mature contemplative sci fi...and i'm hoping the upcoming Dune reboot will be like what Villeneuve said it would be...star wars for adults.
What's frustrating to me is that it would be really easy to save TPM. No Gungans, no Anakin saving the day. You do that and you have a tighter 90 minute movie.
Though you're right, the prequels were made to sell toys to kids; hence the protagonist being a child who gets with his much older crush.
Hyperspace tracking and ramming. So everyone immediately accepts that tracking through hyperspace is the obvious answer to why the 1st Order can track them. I would have probably assumed a spy myself would be more likely. It would have explained why Holdo wasn't telling people her plan too, but whatever. It also kind of kills one important aspect of ship battles in SW, especially when gravity well projectors are canon, and why would you only have one ship doing the tracking? Of course this not as dramatically as hyperspace ramming. Hell, with droids you could do that a lot without any heroic sacrifices needed.
Hyperspace Tracking was mentioned by the First Order and one or two of the resistance. And it was shown as a hidden Empire research project back in Rogue One which came out beforehand.
So in other words, you could be considered a Star Wars fan who watched the Star Wars films and, to one degree or another, liked them, but were bored of the basic formula and wanted the Disney films to signal a departure from it Or else realised that to be the case after the fact, since TLJ is, in fact, a departure from the traditional Star Wars formula.
In what way was TLJ a departure from the traditional SW formula?
Thargrim wrote: Maybe people are forgetting they might no longer be the target audience. I mean when I got into Star Wars in the 90s I was born in 93. So I grew up liking the OT and was there for the full swing of the prequels. While I loved the prequels as a kid I can fully acknowledge all the problems they have.
But now in 2018...I feel like these movies are not being made for me. Maybe i've outgrown Star Wars. To me TLJ felt like a movie I would have loved when I was ten, but now...it just feels like a childish romp with politically correct messages shelved in. BR2049 was made for the me of today, along with Annihilation and more mature contemplative sci fi...and i'm hoping the upcoming Dune reboot will be like what Villeneuve said it would be...star wars for adults.
What's frustrating to me is that it would be really easy to save TPM. No Gungans, no Anakin saving the day. You do that and you have a tighter 90 minute movie.
Though you're right, the prequels were made to sell toys to kids; hence the protagonist being a child who gets with his much older crush.
Aww man, the battle between the Gungans and the droid army and the podrace were my favourite parts of Phantom Menace!
It makes me sad when people bash on Episode 1, I was 10 when it came out and enjoyed it in a way that no other Star Wars film came close to until Rogue 1.
So in other words, you could be considered a Star Wars fan who watched the Star Wars films and, to one degree or another, liked them, but were bored of the basic formula and wanted the Disney films to signal a departure from it Or else realised that to be the case after the fact, since TLJ is, in fact, a departure from the traditional Star Wars formula.
In what way was TLJ a departure from the traditional SW formula?
Cos the Snow battle* happened at the end and not the start, total subversion innit
* battle might be a stretch as flinging pushbikes at tanks was another chapter of wtf military forkwits
So in other words, you could be considered a Star Wars fan who watched the Star Wars films and, to one degree or another, liked them, but were bored of the basic formula and wanted the Disney films to signal a departure from it Or else realised that to be the case after the fact, since TLJ is, in fact, a departure from the traditional Star Wars formula.
In what way was TLJ a departure from the traditional SW formula?
Well it was dull and badly written but that's in keeping with the prequels.
Critics love to talk about the oh so edgy subversion - Still don't agree
They still had a single black character who was basically there as a joke, the women were portrayed as idiots for the most part and the men as worse, its fine for Asian character's to conduct suicide attacks, oh and wow arms dealers sell guns to anyone who buys them.
Aww man, the battle between the Gungans and the droid army and the podrace were my favourite parts of Phantom Menace!
The podrace must stay, that's good spectacle; and a really good arcade game. But you can have podracing without Anakin blowing up the droid controller; he can be good at podracing and nothing else.
It makes me sad when people bash on Episode 1, I was 10 when it came out and enjoyed it in a way that no other Star Wars film came close to until Rogue 1.
Wow. How times have changed. I remember a time when Ep 1 was almost unanimously considered the worst SW movie ever.
I'm actually glad to see more people like it though. If you cut out 80% of the Jar Jar stuff you are left with a pretty decent flick that is fun to watch.
But yeah, from a story perspective, you can completely skip Ep 1 and the rest of the SW saga still makes sense.
Galef wrote: Wow. How times have changed. I remember a time when Ep 1 was almost unanimously considered the worst SW movie ever.
I'm actually glad to see more people like it though. If you cut out 80% of the Jar Jar stuff you are left with a pretty decent flick that is fun to watch.
But yeah, from a story perspective, you can completely skip Ep 1 and the rest of the SW saga still makes sense.
For me,"like" is a strong word. "Tolerate" is more fitting to be honest.
I remember someone did an edit of TPM that cut out all of Jar Jar's 'hilarity' and dubbed his voice over in an alien language with subtitles, changing his dialogue too. The process turned him from an annoying cartoon into a decent character. It also edited out a lot of the Senate dreck and other filler. Oh, and the battle droids now only spoke to living characters, making them somewhat more sinister. All these changes resulted in a pretty decent movie.
Say what you will about the Prequels, but it did expand the Galaxy and show us new people and things. However, it this and stayed relatively close to the idea of Space OPera and the Heroe's Journey IN SPAAAAAAACE! The directing and editing were terrible, but at least it was Star Wars in content and design.
My lov eof the Franchise died with Mitochloridians and the whole delivery of that scene, and I would have loved to never see Yoda use a lightsaber; but the arc was still Star Wars.
TLJ, was basically a bunch of stuff happening that didn't matter AND only wanted to show the audience how stupid the Star Wars template was. Wow, thanks for showing me that being a liking something is dumb and I should feel bad about it. I feel much better now. Like Winston in 1984.
I'm actually glad to see more people like it though. If you cut out 80% of the Jar Jar stuff you are left with a pretty decent flick that is fun to watch.
The 10 year old romancing the 17 year old is also kind of weird.
Galef wrote: Wow. How times have changed. I remember a time when Ep 1 was almost unanimously considered the worst SW movie ever.
I'm actually glad to see more people like it though. If you cut out 80% of the Jar Jar stuff you are left with a pretty decent flick that is fun to watch.
But yeah, from a story perspective, you can completely skip Ep 1 and the rest of the SW saga still makes sense.
For me,"like" is a strong word. "Tolerate" is more fitting to be honest.
I remember someone did an edit of TPM that cut out all of Jar Jar's 'hilarity' and dubbed his voice over in an alien language with subtitles, changing his dialogue too. The process turned him from an annoying cartoon into a decent character. It also edited out a lot of the Senate dreck and other filler. Oh, and the battle droids now only spoke to living characters, making them somewhat more sinister. All these changes resulted in a pretty decent movie.
I can kinda see tow that might work - bit like editing Loopy fething Lex out of Bats vs Sups - makes it watchable but still not a good film
Most of the Star Wars principal cast scores petty high on the Mary Sue litmus test.
Just going off the top of my head.
Anakin Skywalker - "Cool" name, chosen one, allegedly has greater force potential than anyone, born into slavery, top five duelist at a minimum, second deadliest individual in the galaxy during the Empire's reign, possibly best fighter pilot in the galaxy, talented mechanic from an early age, best human pod racer on Tatooine, best pre adolescent pod racer/fighter pilot probably of all time, woos and wins a "Queen", love at first sight, no father and mother dies horribly...Padme continues to love him even though he just killed a tribe of Tusken Raiders...goes completely off the deep end and massacres more children...and adults...is somehow redeemed by his son.
Obi-Wan Kenobi - Probably a top five duelist during the Republic, trained two of the most powerful force users that we see in the first six films, beat Grievous, Maul, Anakin, and Jango Fett 1v1. Let's highlight that. As a padawan he took down the Sith that had just killed his master and matched them 1v2...expert pilot, compared to other characters he is a pretty good detective/tracker...
Luke Skywalker - Took down the Death Star his first time in an X-Wing and with minimal force training, was deflecting blaster bolts the second time we see him pick up a lightsaber. (Have we even see Rey deflect a blaster bolt yet?) Talented enough as a duelist that he countered Vader's second attempt at a riposte on Bespin, but it did cost him his hand. Losing his hand didn't matter, got a new one. Second time he fought Vader he beat him down. Yes, the guy who received minimal training and has fought a total of two lightsaber duels defeated the guy who killed multiple veteran Jedi/Sith. Another chosen one, redeemed his father, so pure of heart he resisted Sidious, took down Jabba the Hutt's crime syndicate, extremely talented pilot and strategist, decent mechanic. In sequels was able to force project himself across the galaxy.
Han Solo - Despite being a former drug smuggler no one brings this up/if they do it is because he is famous. One of the best pilots in the galaxy. Also a talent combat marksman and strategist. Woos and wins the heart of a "Princess." Is constantly gruff and abrasive but no one ever seems to care. Picks on C3PO (in contrast to how well Luke treats R2D2) and no stops him or even cares. Obviously has an intentionally "cool" name. Strongest argument against him being a Sue is that he actually gets captured and has to be rescued.
vs
Rey - Good mechanic, good pilot, beats a wounded/mentally weak Kylo Ren, has raw force power to match Kylo Ren, manages to resist a mind probe and use mind trick with no training, beats Luke 1v1 (Luke had a stick and wasn't using the Force). Beats Snoke's Praetorians with Ren (I think she got 2 and he dropped 4?) .
I don't see how she is more egregious than any others. The flying tricks are a product of improved CGI and a demand for over the top action. I don't doubt that Solo and Luke would have similar OTT action scenes as pilots if Star Wars was launched in 2015 and not 1977. Her fight vs Kylo has been argued to death. Writer intent was that he was wounded, emotionally vulnerable, and wasn't ordered to kill her. She had nothing to lose and fought like a trapped lion. IMO, the worst thing about her character isn't that she the best at everything, it is that she is emotionally flat and overly optimistic. She's not complex whatsoever.
I've long felt that Episode 1 has the best bones of the prequels. All of its problems are in the details and directing. The plot outline is largely fine.
Personally, the biggest mistake in my mind was not having Hayden Christensen play Anakin from the beginning. Had he been introduced as a teenage podracing prodigy it would have been a far easier transition to the overconfident Jedi Episode 2 had to struggle to introduce and they could have built up his relationship with Padme from the beginning. More than anything, that's the structural failure of the prequels in my mind and unfortunately it comes from the same need to show heroes as anything less than innocent that gave us Greedo's warning shot.
trexmeyer wrote: Most of the Star Wars principal cast scores petty high on the Mary Sue litmus test.
Just going off the top of my head.
Anakin Skywalker - "Cool" name, chosen one, allegedly has greater force potential than anyone, born into slavery, top five duelist at a minimum, second deadliest individual in the galaxy during the Empire's reign, possibly best fighter pilot in the galaxy, talented mechanic from an early age, best human pod racer on Tatooine, best pre adolescent pod racer/fighter pilot probably of all time, woos and wins a "Queen", love at first sight, no father and mother dies horribly...Padme continues to love him even though he just killed a tribe of Tusken Raiders...goes completely off the deep end and massacres more children...and adults...is somehow redeemed by his son.
Chosen One, but is clearly not invincible and has very real flaws in his character (some of which could and should VERY easily be expanded on).
Greater force potential because he's the chosen one.
Since when was being born into slavery a Mary Sue trait? It certainly exacerbates many issues (ie, slaves turning out to be better that trained experts in certain fields), but in itself isn't a problem.
He's a good duellist due to his force potential and channelling of both Light and Dark sides. However, can't be that much of a Mary Sue if he gets beaten by Kenobi - which has very real consequences for him.
Good fighter pilot has been established due to his skill in podracing, which both are supported by his prodigious force abilities. Again, that's his main sell, but because the Force is just so damn important in Star Wars, that makes him very good. However, it is explained within the rules of the universe, and it's not just handwaved away - he's good because of the Force.
His relationship with Padme on all fronts could have been written so much better than it was. I'll agree - her knowing he's murdered a whole tribe of Tusken (which is an anti-Mary Sue trait, considering that it wasn't a good thing he did, and he never technically repented from it) and still going on with him is a mistake.
Obi-Wan Kenobi - Probably a top five duelist during the Republic, trained two of the most powerful force users that we see in the first six films, beat Grievous, Maul, Anakin, and Jango Fett 1v1. Let's highlight that. As a padawan he took down the Sith that had just killed his master and matched them 1v2...expert pilot, compared to other characters he is a pretty good detective/tracker...
He was an exclusive master of defensive duelling - I'd hope he was good at it.
He trained two powerful force users, who were both already very skilled in the force due to their heritage. Not really a factor.
Doesn't beat Maul 1v1 - Jinn and him wear him down, and Maul gets cocky.
Anakin (again, unlike a Mary Sue to be beaten, eh?) also lets his rage and anger blind him, with very real consequences.
Grevious was a very aggressive duellist,used to fighting and overpowering Jedi who tried the same. Kenobi was unique in that he was a perfect counter - a defensive master. Grevious met his polar opposite.
Jango wasn't a force user, and escaped in good condition, albeit being rescued by his son.
Luke Skywalker - Took down the Death Star his first time in an X-Wing and with minimal force training, was deflecting blaster bolts the second time we see him pick up a lightsaber. (Have we even see Rey deflect a blaster bolt yet?) Talented enough as a duelist that he countered Vader's second attempt at a riposte on Bespin, but it did cost him his hand. Losing his hand didn't matter, got a new one. Second time he fought Vader he beat him down. Yes, the guy who received minimal training and has fought a total of two lightsaber duels defeated the guy who killed multiple veteran Jedi/Sith. Another chosen one, redeemed his father, so pure of heart he resisted Sidious, took down Jabba the Hutt's crime syndicate, extremely talented pilot and strategist, decent mechanic. In sequels was able to force project himself across the galaxy.
Luke, more than anyone, is no more of a Mary Sue than a hero of a Greek myth.
Him taking down the Death Star is supported by his experiences with T16s and Womp Rats, and his clear openess to the Force.
He deflects blaster bolts after being hit several times.
Not that talented if he loses a hand - and again, Vader's not the Skywalker he used to be after Mustafar. Beat Vader the second time because he very clearly fell and embraced the Dark Side, if only by a degree - the more Mary Sue part is the fact he was able to come back from that.
Vader's Jedi killing sprees mostly happened pre-Mustafar. Still good after, but not like he was before. Plus, Luke was his son - he probably pulled punches in order to sway him over.
Again, most of his non Force skills are supported by his life on Tatooine, barring strategy. That is a fluke.
Han Solo - Despite being a former drug smuggler no one brings this up/if they do it is because he is famous. One of the best pilots in the galaxy. Also a talent combat marksman and strategist. Woos and wins the heart of a "Princess." Is constantly gruff and abrasive but no one ever seems to care. Picks on C3PO (in contrast to how well Luke treats R2D2) and no stops him or even cares. Obviously has an intentionally "cool" name. Strongest argument against him being a Sue is that he actually gets captured and has to be rescued.
People bring up his less savoury past in ANH - after that, he's part of the Alliance, and frankly, they don't care. He saved Luke and allowed him to pull off the Death Star killing shot.
Being a talented fighter and a smart mind come from his own experiences in combat in his smuggling background.
Winning the heart of a princess is a matter of personal preference of the princess.
Being constantly gruff and abrasive (well, except in the times when he's not) isn't a Mary Sue trait, nor is people not responding to it - him being an active donkey-cave, which he isn't, would be. And besides, in ANH, Luke and Leia often call him out on his gruffness.
Picking on droids is something that people rarely care about in Star Wars, it seems.
Rey - Good mechanic, good pilot, beats a wounded/mentally weak Kylo Ren, has raw force power to match Kylo Ren, manages to resist a mind probe and use mind trick with no training, beats Luke 1v1 (Luke had a stick and wasn't using the Force). Beats Snoke's Praetorians with Ren (I think she got 2 and he dropped 4?) .
Her being a mechanic is fine, fits with her literally being raised in a scrapyard. However, her being a good pilot? How? Why? If she's poor, she probably wouldn't have flown ships. Perhaps it's her force powers - fine, but where do THEY come from? I'm cool with it not being bloodline related, that's good, but she's not been taught anything - how is she so good?
She wouldn't be so much of a Sue in my eyes if the reason she was so good was explained. Really, it just seems like the screenwriters want another uber-powerful Jedi, but haven't supported the WHY.
Her fight vs Kylo has been argued to death. Writer intent was that he was wounded, emotionally vulnerable, and wasn't ordered to kill her. She had nothing to lose and fought like a trapped lion.
Of course, death of the author. Again, her beating him isn't so much of an issue. It's that he beat Finn quite handily, a combat trained Stormtrooper (yeah, still a Stormtrooper, but as TR-8R shows us, First Order Stormtroopers have an increased aptitude for melee combat), but struggles with Rey. Why is Rey so much better than a trained soldier?
IMO, the worst thing about her character isn't that she the best at everything, it is that she is emotionally flat and overly optimistic. She's not complex whatsoever.
Eh, somewhat true. She has some emotional range, certainly, but that might be more the fault of the screenwriter for not giving the actress chances to push it, keeping her overly optimistic and flat as you say.
The modern version of a 'Mary Sue' is basically a checklist of overly done tropes. It can be countered somewhat by good writing, but I'd argue that Anakin's arc is not an example of that.
Things like being the chosen one, having special powers outside rare in one's species, coming from an underprivileged background (orphan or slave are common), being inexplicably attractive, having rare hair/eye color, getting away with bullgak because you're the 'bestest and can do no wrong', being excessively skilled in multiple fields (particularly at a young age), being half human half anything special or rare, etc are all common elements in the modern Mary Sue.
It is not simply an author insert anymore, it just began as that.
Another comparison, spoilered as to not take up the damn page.
Spoiler:
Chosen One: Anakin, Luke. From other stories: Harry Potter, Daenerys can potentially be one. From the sequels: Kylo and Rey can both qualify based on their alleged power.
Special Powers: Any Jedi. In particular exceedingly powerful Jedi. From other stories: Harry is somewhat talented at combat, but not really on par with veteran wizards. Daenerys did awaken the dragons and is immune to fire.
Underprivileged background: Anakin was a slave. Luke was an orphan. Harry was an abused orphan. Daenerys was an orphan and sold off as a bride.
Attractive: Anakin, Luke, and Rey qualify. Kylo doesn't even if some people do consider him attractive, it's really not universal. Harry is pretty average. Daenerys qualifies.
Rare Hair/Eye Color: Harry has green eyes which are rare and an identifying scar. Daenerys has the violet eyes and white-blonde hair of Targaryens.
Getting away with bullgak: Anakin qualifies in that he wiped out a tribe. Harry has gotten away with mischief constantly. Daenerys somewhat, but not excessively so.
Being excessively skilled: All the Star Wars 4 are skilled force users and pilots. Anakin, Luke, and Rey may all qualify as mechanics as well. Harry not so much. Daenerys is charismatic, but that's about it.
Being half human half special: Star Wars 4 in that they are force users. Harry is a wizard, but that's not uncommon in his 'real' world. Living Targaryens can be counted on one hand.
What's the difference?
Anakin does fall from virtue and becomes the Dragon.
Luke doesn't win by combat, but his pure heart. However, this is only after coming his rage.
Rey is currently on the losing horribly side.
Ren is winning, but got upstaged by Luke.
Harry won through Horcrux ex machina.
Daenerys is...who knows?
IMO, the only thing that really separates these characters is quality of writing and the fact more and more OP characters have been introduced since Luke, so his characteristics are less analyzed than the latter ones.
trexmeyer wrote: The modern version of a 'Mary Sue' is basically a checklist of overly done tropes. It can be countered somewhat by good writing, but I'd argue that Anakin's arc is not an example of that.
Things like being the chosen one, having special powers outside rare in one's species, coming from an underprivileged background (orphan or slave are common), being inexplicably attractive, having rare hair/eye color, getting away with bullgak because you're the 'bestest and can do no wrong', being excessively skilled in multiple fields (particularly at a young age), being half human half anything special or rare, etc are all common elements in the modern Mary Sue.
It is not simply an author insert anymore, it just began as that.
Another comparison, spoilered as to not take up the damn page.
Spoiler:
Chosen One: Anakin, Luke. From other stories: Harry Potter, Daenerys can potentially be one. From the sequels: Kylo and Rey can both qualify based on their alleged power.
Special Powers: Any Jedi. In particular exceedingly powerful Jedi. From other stories: Harry is somewhat talented at combat, but not really on par with veteran wizards. Daenerys did awaken the dragons and is immune to fire.
Underprivileged background: Anakin was a slave. Luke was an orphan. Harry was an abused orphan. Daenerys was an orphan and sold off as a bride.
Attractive: Anakin, Luke, and Rey qualify. Kylo doesn't even if some people do consider him attractive, it's really not universal. Harry is pretty average. Daenerys qualifies.
Rare Hair/Eye Color: Harry has green eyes which are rare and an identifying scar. Daenerys has the violet eyes and white-blonde hair of Targaryens.
Getting away with bullgak: Anakin qualifies in that he wiped out a tribe. Harry has gotten away with mischief constantly. Daenerys somewhat, but not excessively so.
Being excessively skilled: All the Star Wars 4 are skilled force users and pilots. Anakin, Luke, and Rey may all qualify as mechanics as well. Harry not so much. Daenerys is charismatic, but that's about it.
Being half human half special: Star Wars 4 in that they are force users. Harry is a wizard, but that's not uncommon in his 'real' world. Living Targaryens can be counted on one hand.
What's the difference?
Anakin does fall from virtue and becomes the Dragon.
Luke doesn't win by combat, but his pure heart. However, this is only after coming his rage.
Rey is currently on the losing horribly side.
Ren is winning, but got upstaged by Luke.
Harry won through Horcrux ex machina.
Daenerys is...who knows?
IMO, the only thing that really separates these characters is quality of writing and the fact more and more OP characters have been introduced since Luke, so his characteristics are less analyzed than the latter ones.
Which is why mary sue basically doesnt exist. Batman is a mary sue by "modern definition" . hes excessivly skilled, everyone likes or at least respect him. He always wins, orphaned, rich, etc etc...
Again, if Rey is a mary sue then everyone is. We follow exceptional people because exceptional people are interesting.
Lance845 wrote: Again, if Rey is a mary sue then everyone is. We follow exceptional people because exceptional people are interesting.
I've got no issue following Rey, or her being exceptional. However, I do want to know WHY she's exceptional.
I know why Batman is exceptional.
I know why Daenerys is exceptional.
I know why Harry Potter is exceptional.
I know why Luke is exceptional.
I know why Anakin is exceptional.
I don't know why Rey is, compared to other people like Finn, Kylo, and Leia.
Lance845 wrote: Again, if Rey is a mary sue then everyone is. We follow exceptional people because exceptional people are interesting.
I've got no issue following Rey, or her being exceptional. However, I do want to know WHY she's exceptional.
I know why Batman is exceptional. I know why Daenerys is exceptional. I know why Harry Potter is exceptional. I know why Luke is exceptional. I know why Anakin is exceptional. I don't know why Rey is, compared to other people like Finn, Kylo, and Leia.
Why is Batman so intelligent? Why is Han Solo such a good pilot? Do you know why Daenerys is exceptional? Because her entire family were not exceptional in even remotely the same way or scale. It just appears to be her for no good reason. Why is Jon Snow exceptional at anything? He's got no reason to be better then any body else and lots of reasons to be worse. Why does Ellen Ripley have such a bad ass backbone? She's just a trucker and a mother. Why is Ferris Beuller exceptional? He's just a megalomaniac in high school. Why is Madmartigan such a great swordsman? (Willow bitches!)
Being rich and driven can GET you a lot of things, but it can't give you a natural aptitude for intellect. The Dark Knight Batman is an idiot who is rich and driven. Comic Book batman is intelligent in a way almost nobody else in the DC universe can compete with.
Because he ran the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs...and he's a conman who gets lucky; never tell him the odds.
The Kessel Run proove that he IS a good pilot. How did he BECOME a good pilot? I need to know WHY!? Where do all his skills come from? Without knowing WHY hes so good he's just some Mary Sue or something.
Do you know why Daenerys is exceptional? Because her entire family were not exceptional in even remotely the same way or scale.
She's a Targaryen, that's established as being important in the first season.
Neither the show nor the books say that being a Targaryen is important for anything but having a claim to the Iron Throne. Her 2 brothers, 2 nephews and niece were/are all Targaryens. So was her father the Mad king, and 500 years of family going back. The blind Maester Aegon at the wall was a Targaryen. I didn't see him hatch dragons and be immune to fire.
The Targaryens are the last Valyrians and by default, the last dragon riders. They are heavily implied to be better. Their decline is a just another play on the fall of a once great house/empire.
If being Targaryen meant nothing Jon's heritage would it be nearly as important as it's played out to be. The claim to the Iron Throne is meaningless. What matters is that theirs is the last blood known to be capable of controlling the most powerful weapon in Westeros. If you can't see how that matters, I don't know what else to say.
Why is Luke exceptional? Why is Han? And Anakin? They just are because they are the heroes and in YA level writing that is the standard.
It is also, albeit a poor one, reflection on life. Some people are blessed with greater physical and mental gifts in areas that the rest of society values. Some of those individuals are incredibly driven. Sometimes the average person is in the right place at the right for them to do something incredible. It doesn't have to be complex.
There are pro athletes who compete and excel at the highest level even though they picked up the game much later than most of their peers.
Why is Usain Bolt the fastest man ever at 100m? Does he outwork everyone? No, he's exceptional to begin with and worked hard to develop his talent.
Mary Sue can be applied to pretty much any heroic character ever if the writing is poor enough. Which again, if there is a problem with Rey it is that her character is very flat so far. TBH, Luke was widely considered to be boring, by comparison to his peers, as well.
Edit: To be more specific regarding Rey and Luke.
Rey established that she could fly with "I'm a pilot." Luke did so with the bulls eyeing swamp rats bit. Rey doing a mind trick and winning a melee fight is IMO mostly comparable to Luke blowing up the Death Star. And it was established Finn wasn't a great fighter by any means AND she did lay him out earlier and was shown to hold her own.
Her problem is that her attitude makes ZERO sense given her background. Luke grew up with a family and is pretty much a stereotypical idealistic young man with dreams of glory and a life as fight pilot.
Nothing in Rey's life should have shaped her into the trusting, optimistic young woman that she is...she should be distrustful, emotionally guarded, possibly have a bit of a cruel streak, and ready to fight at the drop of a hat. Her emotional behavior befuddles me.
IMO, the only thing that really separates these characters is quality of writing and the fact more and more OP characters have been introduced since Luke, so his characteristics are less analyzed than the latter ones.
Luke also fought pretty horribly early on, getting taken out by Tusken Raiders of all things, and his shooting skills weren't a major factor in most of the fights he was in. We actually had an explanation for why he's a good pilot (at least having mentioned training).. But he loses pretty much all his early fights before proper training
Rey doing a mind trick and winning a melee fight is IMO mostly comparable to Luke blowing up the Death Star.
Don't forget she out forced Kylo (pulled the lightsaber from the snow), and turned his own mental interrogation back on him.
trexmeyer wrote: The Targaryens are the last Valyrians and by default, the last dragon riders. They are heavily implied to be better. Their decline is a just another play on the fall of a once great house/empire.
If being Targaryen meant nothing Jon's heritage would it be nearly as important as it's played out to be. The claim to the Iron Throne is meaningless. What matters is that theirs is the last blood known to be capable of controlling the most powerful weapon in Westeros. If you can't see how that matters, I don't know what else to say.
Why is Luke exceptional? Why is Han? And Anakin? They just are because they are the heroes and in YA level writing that is the standard.
It is also, albeit a poor one, reflection on life. Some people are blessed with greater physical and mental gifts in areas that the rest of society values. Some of those individuals are incredibly driven. Sometimes the average person is in the right place at the right for them to do something incredible. It doesn't have to be complex.
There are pro athletes who compete and excel at the highest level even though they picked up the game much later than most of their peers.
Why is Usain Bolt the fastest man ever at 100m? Does he outwork everyone? No, he's exceptional to begin with and worked hard to develop his talent.
Mary Sue can be applied to pretty much any heroic character ever if the writing is poor enough. Which again, if there is a problem with Rey it is that her character is very flat so far. TBH, Luke was widely considered to be boring, by comparison to his peers, as well.
In a show/series that started with the title "A Game of Thrones" thats has, for the vast majority of it's plot, been about who has claim to and will end up sitting on the Iron Throne, being the crown Prince and direct heir to the throne is a very big deal. Deanerys is only second in line because she is Reagars younger sister. She gets it if he has no heirs. But Jon is his son. Which means Danny has no actual claim. That is why it's important.
Their blood hadn't had claim to dragons for hundreds of years and nobody had ridden one in many hundreds more before that. What makes DANNY so special in a long line of people who had nothing special about them?
The rest of your stuff I agree with. That was the point I was making. Sgt. Smudge needs to know why Rey is exceptional. She could just BE exceptional but he needs a explanation for why she has inborn talent.
Which makes sense. He has never had to fight. He can fly and fix things.
Rey should be able to fight. She's had to do that to protect herself. Her piloting feats don't match Luke's and his combat feats don't match her's after their first appearances. That part makes perfect sense to me.
Edit: That is just the series title.
The series is rightly titled A Song of Ice and Fire. That's the real war. It's not really a discussion for this thread and I think we should just drop it since we won't see eye to eye.
Sgt. Smudge needs to know why Rey is exceptional. She could just BE exceptional but he needs a explanation for why she has inborn talent.
Well.. She could just be the most exceptional, most powerful person just because... But that's boring, bad storytelling, and isn't really fun to watch someone just smash their way through everyone because you are just straight up exceptional to begin with. Needing nobody or much training to match anyone whose trained for ages, just taking a day to match eye to eye with the previous powerful.
Sgt. Smudge needs to know why Rey is exceptional. She could just BE exceptional but he needs a explanation for why she has inborn talent.
Well.. She could just be the most exceptional, most powerful person just because... But that's boring, bad storytelling, and isn't really fun to watch someone just smash their way through everyone because you are just straight up exceptional to begin with. Needing nobody or much training to match anyone whose trained for ages, just taking a day to match eye to eye with the previous powerful.
But she isn't. She beat a janitor, a wounded Ren, Luke with a stick and no force, and was overshadow by Ren when they fought Snoke's guards. Which is part of the problem. She hasn't lost because she hasn't faced anyone capable of beating her at the time.
Shilling my own WIP here
Spoiler:
I have a character that is strong melee fighter. He beats a private of dragoons easily. Immediately after a captain of dragoons lays him out. He progresses over time in a visible manner.
Rey needed to lose a fight.
Sgt. Smudge needs to know why Rey is exceptional. She could just BE exceptional but he needs a explanation for why she has inborn talent.
Well.. She could just be the most exceptional, most powerful person just because... But that's boring, bad storytelling, and isn't really fun to watch someone just smash their way through everyone because you are just straight up exceptional to begin with. Needing nobody or much training to match anyone whose trained for ages, just taking a day to match eye to eye with the previous powerful.
Sure, if your point is that you don't like it, or that you would prefer better writing, or that you think it's boring then thats fine. I can see why you would feel that way and respect your opinion. Apply that to Batman, Han Solo, and all the others who have a natural talent that exceeds the skills of those who need to work to be not as good then.
My basic argument in this particular arena is that Rey catches gak for being what everyone else is and labeled a Mary Sue for it. I have never seen the venom slung at Rey's character dumped on Batman, or Han, or any of the other characters we could list all day. You find her personality flat? I can see how you got there. You think it's unbelievable that she has some skills and raw power and uses it? What exactly is the difference between her and every other character in every other story you enjoy?
I don't dislike her character. For a Star Wars film she works. I'm actually agreeing with you in that sense. Honestly, aside from a handful of titles, I don't care at all for comic book writing. The movies are generally better.
Batman? The guy whose trained with many people across the world, learning various styles, combat mysteries, and spent much of his lifetime training, building gadgetry through his various companies.. It's like you picked the one person who has literally been shown to have trained most of his life in order to do what he does. Having sacrificed his own childhood and early years just so he can fight crime and try to make his city better as his father tried.
While people call him invincible it doesn't compare given how many times he's been beaten in the comics, one of the most famously by Bane when he broke the batman and he had to spend months in care because he was just beaten so badly. Not to mention the various times the Jokers overcome him, and even some sideline villains have pulled things over on the bat. It's basically just a meme that Batman has a plan for everything and can defeat everyone.
Han Solo though we are supposed to identify as a mercenary whose trained and been a ruthless fighter through his life And yes, his skills are a bit odd.. But that's the thing, he's not the one on the heroes journey, you can tell he's been through a fair bit of life in a rough and tumble mercenary way. He's not the one the story is truly about at first, it's about the plucky young character whose story is being built up about them at the center, where we see their advancement and skills rise to the challenge while needing to be propped up by other more skilled characters.
Now if Han Solo in Solo the movie is just as skilled as adult, rugged Han.. I'd make the same complaints.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Batman? The guy whose trained with many people across the world, learning various styles, combat mysteries, and spent much of his lifetime training, building gadgetry through his various companies.. It's like you picked the one person who has literally been shown to have trained most of his life in order to do what he does. Having sacrificed his own childhood and early years just so he can fight crime and try to make his city better as his father tried.
While people call him invincible it doesn't compare given how many times he's been beaten in the comics, one of the most famously by Bane when he broke the batman and he had to spend months in care because he was just beaten so badly. Not to mention the various times the Jokers overcome him, and even some sideline villains have pulled things over on the bat. It's basically just a meme that Batman has a plan for everything and can defeat everyone.
Han Solo though we are supposed to identify as a mercenary whose trained and been a ruthless fighter through his life And yes, his skills are a bit odd.. But that's the thing, he's not the one on the heroes journey, you can tell he's been through a fair bit of life in a rough and tumble mercenary way. He's not the one the story is truly about at first, it's about the plucky young character whose story is being built up about them at the center, where we see their advancement and skills rise to the challenge while needing to be propped up by other more skilled characters.
Now if Han Solo in Solo the movie is just as skilled as adult, rugged Han.. I'd make the same complaints.
Yeah, Batman, the guy who for no reason whats so ever is a crazy super genius. Not from training or anything. His natural intellect. Not from comic book radiation or having his neurons spread through his entire body like Ultimate Tony Stark or being able to stretch his mind like Reed Richards. But actually just himself being one of the top 5-10ish intellects on the planet.
Yes Batman, whos tragic past gives him his drive and motivations just like all the Mary Sues. Batman, who gets all the ladies, good guys and bad guys, is rich, has an answer to every problem on his belt at every moment.
Do you mean to tell me Batman didn't build a satalite database filled with the strengths, weaknesses and identities of every hero and villian on the planet along with contingency plans for how to beat them all? Whats this? Infinite Crisis! What are you doing there!
AH yes, when bane broke batmans back. Did you read that story? Bane let all of batmans bad guys out of Arkham. Batman was awake for 6 days strait tracking them all down, fighting them, catching them, and putting them back in Arkham. Then, on the 7th day, Bane showed up and Batman, exhausted, was like "Who the feth are you?", because Bane had not revealed himself yet, and then beat a completely wiped batman who had no idea who he was fighting.
But it's okay! Because batman fixed his spine with magic and then beat the crap out of bane when he had a nap. Thats a reasonable extreme to go to to beat a regular person and not then have them come back and knock you senseless.
Ive seen the Han Solo trailers. It looks like his skills are even better when young if any of that flying and driving is him in the seat.
The magicked spine was pretty feh... But you could tell they really wanted to get batman back in because Azazel was causing comicbook sales to plummit when they tried "Grittier, angelic murderin' angry batman replacement"
But sure, I'll concede your point on the intellect and somehow suave ability (Personally I prefer the stories where his anti-social nature tends to screw him over, but Batman just has so many comic books and general retcons you overall see things)
As for the Han Solo.. I've been skipping the trailers since I prefer avoiding such, but I really hope that's not the case.
Also I will agree Rey's character as a whole is bland which you did mention before.. I think TLJ actually fixed it a bit by making her the straight woman to some zany antics given by Luke and dealing with Kylo outside of her comfort zone of fighting, made her seem more personable then TFA's attempt at unfazed everywoman. Probably one of the few benefits to TLJ I will agree on.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: The magicked spine was pretty feh... But you could tell they really wanted to get batman back in because Azazel was causing comicbook sales to plummit when they tried "Grittier, angelic murderin' angry batman replacement"
But sure, I'll concede your point on the intellect and somehow suave ability (Personally I prefer the stories where his anti-social nature tends to screw him over, but Batman just has so many comic books and general retcons you overall see things)
The even MORE fethed thing is all the years Barabara Gordon spent in a wheel chair when clearly Batman knew how to fix spines instantly and without repercussions.
As for the Han Solo.. I've been skipping the trailers since I prefer avoiding such, but I really hope that's not the case.
Also I will agree Rey's character as a whole is bland which you did mention before.. I think TLJ actually fixed it a bit by making her the straight woman to some zany antics given by Luke and dealing with Kylo outside of her comfort zone of fighting, made her seem more personable then TFA's attempt at unfazed everywoman. Probably one of the few benefits to TLJ I will agree on.
Sure. And I am not saying to you directly that I have a problem with any of your personal opinions on any of the movies. You can like or dislike whatever you want. I just take umbrage with the Mary Sue argument because it's so narrowly focused on Rey for "reasons".
Lance845 wrote: Also, stop criticizing the people who liked it fot getting defensive if your every post about disliking the movie is going to include broad generalizations and attacks on the people who enjoyed it.
Let's be fair here. A lot of the fans who were being defensive started out by going on a good offensive. Even though I really liked TLJ, I've found myself arguing on the "haters" side because the superfans have been so condescending and unreasonable. You might not have been the one with the beam in his own eye, but you're certainly not helping when you keep harping on the motes in others' eyes.
the gibes across the line is one thing and can be a entertaining way to discuss a movie, having the studio jump in and slander their audience is quite a new step.
In the original thread I said the side plot to las vegas was pointless, and someone countered with 'oh you just hate the actress who played rose'. The haters would write long lists of why they didn't like the movie, to be countered with 'that's not the reason you don't like it, you don't even know the reason why you don't like it' Which is what the mouse is selling, if you don't like this movie then there's something seriously wrong with you. The same thing has been brewing with solo, It can't be bad because of all the drama on the set and the 3 directors, it must be because we made lando a pan. The funniest is blaming the rotten tomatoes score on Russian bots. A horrible side plot and the worst admiral in existence makes for a bad movie, I doubt the Russians care about it's ratings.
This new attitude from Disney is just horrible, they attack people for not liking their movies. How does that help you sell movies? how does that make anyone want to see the next one? since when did alienating audiences become good marketing? Sure they can coast a while on the words 'star wars' but I can't see that lasting very long at this rate.
the only good thing about bad star wars movies is we get spoofs that are better than the movies.
You do realize the TLJ HISHE is mocking all the "haters" too, right?
Are you sure the studio itself created that ad hominem style of defensive criticism? I thought that was started by over enthusiastic fans while Disney sat on the sideline.
trexmeyer wrote: Most of the Star Wars principal cast scores petty high on the Mary Sue litmus test.
Just going off the top of my head.
Luke Skywalker - Took down the Death Star his first time in an X-Wing and with minimal force training, was deflecting blaster bolts the second time we see him pick up a lightsaber. (Have we even see Rey deflect a blaster bolt yet?) Talented enough as a duelist that he countered Vader's second attempt at a riposte on Bespin, but it did cost him his hand. Losing his hand didn't matter, got a new one. Second time he fought Vader he beat him down. Yes, the guy who received minimal training and has fought a total of two lightsaber duels defeated the guy who killed multiple veteran Jedi/Sith. Another chosen one, redeemed his father, so pure of heart he resisted Sidious, took down Jabba the Hutt's crime syndicate, extremely talented pilot and strategist, decent mechanic. In sequels was able to force project himself across the galaxy.
vs
Rey - Good mechanic, good pilot, beats a wounded/mentally weak Kylo Ren, has raw force power to match Kylo Ren, manages to resist a mind probe and use mind trick with no training, beats Luke 1v1 (Luke had a stick and wasn't using the Force). Beats Snoke's Praetorians with Ren (I think she got 2 and he dropped 4?) .
I don't see how she is more egregious than any others. The flying tricks are a product of improved CGI and a demand for over the top action. I don't doubt that Solo and Luke would have similar OTT action scenes as pilots if Star Wars was launched in 2015 and not 1977. Her fight vs Kylo has been argued to death. Writer intent was that he was wounded, emotionally vulnerable, and wasn't ordered to kill her. She had nothing to lose and fought like a trapped lion. IMO, the worst thing about her character isn't that she the best at everything, it is that she is emotionally flat and overly optimistic. She's not complex whatsoever.
when it comes to marry sue though, your just looking at what they did, not what they failed at. A Mary Sue is a character (male, female, or otherwise) who is given or is expected to be given unwarranted preferential treatment and unearned respect.
Everyone questioned and doubted lukes abilities, Ray got handed the keys to the falcon, and chewbacca just goes along with her. Leia just instantly loves this girl on first site and seeks a comferting hug from her instead of chewy, .
Luke couldn't even lift his own x wing out of the swamp, and rays tossing them all over the place. In the sequals luke still can't lift his xwing out of the water.
Like you said, luke lost his first fight against vader, ray has yet to lose a fight and has won every force contest she's faced. at this point kylo needs a training montage to catch up to her skills.
I do agree though, she's a shallow character, but then again so is the rest of the characters, there's really no depth to any of them.
Aww man, the battle between the Gungans and the droid army and the podrace were my favourite parts of Phantom Menace!
It makes me sad when people bash on Episode 1, I was 10 when it came out and enjoyed it in a way that no other Star Wars film came close to until Rogue 1.
It's interesting, I was just starting out on the internet when the prequels came out, and I remember the initial response was a lot more nuanced than you might guess. Yes, there were things people hated right off the bat (Jar-Jar!), but people would talk about liking this bit*, that other bit was cool, etc. It took a bit of time for the opinions to calcify into WORST MOVIES EVAR.
* One moment I really liked was in the Jedi battle when the force walls come up and separate everyone for a few seconds. Obi-Wan seethes with impatience, Darth Maul stalks up and down like a caged animal, never looking away from his prey, and Qui-Gon sits down and meditates.
I didn't hate TLJ, but I am not sure I will watch it again for a while. The movie just didn't really go anywhere and felt like just a setup for the next one. Which a lot of movies do. But most of the movie just felt like a setup.
There are parts I really enjoyed which others didn't. Like I really enjoyed the Yoda scene.
Also I wish we would have learned more about Snoke, like who the hell was he? I also am not reading a book to find out, they should have had something in the movie.
Vash108 wrote: I also am not reading a book to find out, they should have had something in the movie.
And if he had been a more pivotal character, they might have. Ultimately, the movies told us all we really need to know about Snoke (he was a powerful force user bent on galactic domination who twisted Ben Solo for his own ends and made the classic Sith mistake of thinking he was more in control of events than he really was...) and more than we knew about Palpatine by this point in the original trilogy...
Snoke was ultimately just misdirection. He's not the big bad guy of this trilogy.
The Yoda scene was one of the worst, IMO. I don't understand why Yoda was acting like a crazy jerk - that was his cover, before he let Luke know who he really was. That wasn't his true personality. Again, has Rian seen Star Wars before?
Manchu wrote: The Yoda scene was one of the worst, IMO. I don't understand why Yoda was acting like a crazy jerk - that was his cover, before he let Luke know who he really was. That wasn't his true personality. Again, has Rian seen Star Wars before?
The same could be said for most of TFA, in light of TLJ.
Apparently Yoda's true personality is a out and out coward who says "screw the galaxy" when he loses a fight, at least according to the prequals
Snoke was ultimately just misdirection. He's not the big bad guy of this trilogy.
or just yet more weak, lazy writing from an incompetent team which seems to fit the rest of the film.
If they had truely wanted to subvert the narrative (or other total nonsense the critics claim was occurring in a desperate defence of pure crap) then Ben would not have just become another pantimonie villain when given the choice, but it easier to just carry on with the same Evil Empire vs Plucky Rebels, again - lazy writers and director
Manchu wrote: The Yoda scene was one of the worst, IMO. I don't understand why Yoda was acting like a crazy jerk - that was his cover, before he let Luke know who he really was. That wasn't his true personality. Again, has Rian seen Star Wars before?
Yoda still uses his weird syntax while he's training Luke in ESB. It's less weird than when they first meet, but it's still weird.
Yeah I was not talking about Yoda’s idiomatic syntax but rather his “mad muppet” act upon first meeting Luke.
Yoda doesn’t act that way after disclosing his true identity. He doesn’t act that way in the Prequels. But there he is in TLJ, mad muppeting for no reason. Well, maybe the reason is because he doesn’t actually belong in TLJ and shoehorning him in for marketing purposes means there isn’t enough screentime to develop his presence beyond a caricature that the widest possible audience demographic will mindlessly recognize.
Watching TLJ, it was just one shockingly dumb idea after another. Yoda appearing was yet another astonishingly stupid element. Making him act like a weird moron was just gak icing on the gak cake.
Yoda, as shown in the prequels & clone wars series, can be very playful. It makes perfect sense for a creature that is near 900yrs old and would have several life times of experience.
He had to be more serious in ESB due to the severity of the situation. That doesn't mean his personality is serious by default.
Basically, I felt the Yoda scene in TLJ perfectly fit Yoda. And was cool to boot. Yoda is a troll, afterall.
Yoda was amazing for one film and then Lucas took back over and had no idea how to write the character. He doubled down on the weird syntax and turned him into a joke.
As above, Yoda does not act that way in the Prequels. Saying Yoda is a troll demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of his character and role.
It’s not the difference between TLJ being the terrible movie it was and the pretty good movie it could have been. It’s just another example of the production misapprehending, or purposfully undermining, the continuity and themes of the franchise.
Wanted to come back to this because it really puzzles me. With the exception of the Profundity in R1, the vehicle designs in the Disney movies has been notably bland. The FO lander in TFA was my pick for worst offender until I saw the ... tank? In R1 but the dreadnought in TLJ is by far the laziest, ugliest design yet. It’s just a plane festooned with turrets. I made better looking designs from stray Legos as a small child.
TLJ’s production design was lazy, generally speaking. I have huge problems with Rogue One but I can admit it looked wonderful. Solo looks like it will also be visually interesting. TFA was pretty great along these lines, aside from Maz’s castle. By contrast, TLJ feels cheap and boring looking. Part of the issue is that so much of the film takes place in uninspired starship interiors.
All the better. Yoda’s appearance was designed to make the point that such a funny looking being was actually a great and wise spiritual master. On Dagobah, Yoda took advantage of his deceptive appearance to test Luke. He acted like Luke (and the audience) would expect, judging him only by his appearance. Then he dropped the act.
Manchu wrote: All the better. Yoda’s appearance was designed to make the point that such a funny looking being was actually a great and wise spiritual master. On Dagobah, Yoda took advantage of his deceptive appearance to test Luke. He acted like Luke (and the audience) would expect, judging him only by his appearance. Then he dropped the act.
Yeah exactly.
Worst thing they ever did with Yoda was put a lightsaber in his hand.
I liked that Yoda, being 900 years old, has basically seen and done everything, and his attitude reflected it well; he could be serious, mirthful, a troll...basically, he knew what he needed to be to handle each situation. I think the only time he wasn’t in control is when his ego didn’t let him fully prepare to deal with Palpatine, and he got crushed. It was a wake up call for him that maybe he didn’t know everything yet. The stuff with Yoda, much like the stuff with Ren and with Luke were really the only parts of the movie I DID like. As much issue as I’ve found with TLJ, I still like Kylo Ren. And I’m HOPEFUL the story ends up actually being about him. I think that can save the trilogy. If it isn’t, and it is actually about Rey, as it seems now, I think episode 9 is going to be the same cesspool of waste that is episode 8. And only the Star Wars Hipsters will appreciate it; “Oh man, SW was like, so cool, but then it got dull! And Johnson man, he just pwn’d the classic story, you know? And made everything that we loved mean nothing. And that’s so cool and edgy, man!”
I just don't think that watching a chopped up version of ESB but your expectations are subverted at every turn makes for a particularly good movie. The only thing I'd keep is probably Del Toro's turncoat for money angle and we can go back to the jolly days of hives of scum and villainy.
Which is why mary sue basically doesnt exist. Batman is a mary sue by "modern definition" . hes excessivly skilled, everyone likes or at least respect him. He always wins, orphaned, rich, etc etc...
Again, if Rey is a mary sue then everyone is. We follow exceptional people because exceptional people are interesting.
Uh, I don't know if you've read a Batman comic in the last 25-30 years, but Batman didn't suddenly wake up as an expert martial artist and detective. There was a progression, unlike Rey.
Other than Rey, the characters were mostly very unlikable.
The plot was filled with pointlessness. There would be a big attempt, and it would make no difference to the ultimate outcome. It just felt you were spinning your wheels all movie without getting anywhere.
Ultimately after tons of heroic attempts, the final result was that a handful of rebels escaped the First Order.
I think it's past time we addressed TLJ as a subversion of Star Wars, where it went wrong, and what a subversion done well looks like.
It's perfectly clear to all that Rian Johnson set out to make not a Star Wars movie, but a subversion of one. This could have resulted in a good film except... the main sequence of a franchise is the wrong place for a subversion.
Let's take a look at a subversion done well. The Watchmen. Based on the famous comic books, it's a subversion of super heroes and superheroic comics. None of the heroes are all that heroic, the villain is one of them, and they lose in the end despite all their efforts.
Now, imagine how that exact same story would have been received using big-name Marvel or DC characters all acting very much out of character. Superman instead of Dr. Manhattan, losing contact with humanity. Reed Richards planning world peace by blowing up several major cities.
THAT is why TLJ fails. It subverts not just the genre, but the characters themselves. And that's not a good thing to do in the middle of the main sequence of a franchise. Over and over, characters do things out of character - or even outright idiotically - just to carry the subversion to it's ultimate effect.
It would have been better for a sideline movie, where Rian could have created all new characters to be whatever he needed them to be. Taking existing characters and mangling them that way just wasn't going to go over well for fans of the franchise.
(Ironically, I find Luke's subversion the most believable. Yoda warned him way back in ESB that he was reckless, and always looking to the future instead of where he was and what he was doing right now. And what happens to him with Ben Solo? He spends too much time looking to the future instead of right now, recklessly pulls his lightsaber... and causes the very future he hoped to avoid. No wonder the poor guy went into seclusion; he had not only created Kylo Ren, but did so despite being warned by Yoda decades earlier!)
Now, imagine how that exact same story would have been received using big-name Marvel or DC characters all acting very much out of character. Superman instead of Dr. Manhattan, losing contact with humanity. Reed Richards planning world peace by blowing up several major cities.
So, the DCU x2?
Doing that with characters could work if it were something like the Injustice series, where you have Supes go full dictator. But still, that is taking known characters and creating a separate, alternate universe to answer the question of "What if this guy went rogue?"
Vulcan wrote: Let's take a look at a subversion done well. The Watchmen. Based on the famous comic books, it's a subversion of super heroes and superheroic comics. None of the heroes are all that heroic, the villain is one of them, and they lose in the end despite all their efforts.
Now, imagine how that exact same story would have been received using big-name Marvel or DC characters all acting very much out of character. Superman instead of Dr. Manhattan, losing contact with humanity. Reed Richards planning world peace by blowing up several major cities.
THAT is why TLJ fails. It subverts not just the genre, but the characters themselves. And that's not a good thing to do in the middle of the main sequence of a franchise. Over and over, characters do things out of character - or even outright idiotically - just to carry the subversion to it's ultimate effect.
It would have been better for a sideline movie, where Rian could have created all new characters to be whatever he needed them to be. Taking existing characters and mangling them that way just wasn't going to go over well for fans of the franchise.
Yes, this! Exactly!
In my opinion, if you want to see this done right in Star Wars then look to Rogue One. In the original trilogy the Rebel Alliance were unquestionably the good guys, the white to the empire's black. But come Rogue One, we see them resorting to murder and assassination, making them in reality a shade of grey instead. And yet that doesn't detract from what they are in the main trilogy at all. This is why the spin off story movies are better for this type of thing. In the main trilogy, best to stick closer to black and white...except that even they subvert that by making Vader Luke's father the formerly good Jedi and having Obi Wan be a bit economical with the truth. So like all things it comes down to good writing...which Star Wars often lacks.
Vulcan wrote: (Ironically, I find Luke's subversion the most believable. Yoda warned him way back in ESB that he was reckless, and always looking to the future instead of where he was and what he was doing right now. And what happens to him with Ben Solo? He spends too much time looking to the future instead of right now, recklessly pulls his lightsaber... and causes the very future he hoped to avoid. No wonder the poor guy went into seclusion; he had not only created Kylo Ren, but did so despite being warned by Yoda decades earlier!)
Since we're talking about characters acting out of character and sloppy, lazy writing I'd like to bring up TFA and something that always bothered me. What ever gave anyone the impression that Luke Skywalker would ever abandon the people he cared about? I mean he ultimately didn't give up on his father, space Himmler. He sensed a tiny bit of good in his heart underneath the bodies of all the children his dad killed and still managed to hold onto that hope even with his sister now threatened. His nephew you though, eh who cares, I'm out. Seems very unlike him to me.
TLJ actually managed to salvage it for me in an okay way by making it about Luke's failure and not Ben's. It's still him giving up though. They wrote themselves out of a hole imo, but it was a pretty deep hole.
Which is why mary sue basically doesnt exist. Batman is a mary sue by "modern definition" . hes excessivly skilled, everyone likes or at least respect him. He always wins, orphaned, rich, etc etc...
Again, if Rey is a mary sue then everyone is. We follow exceptional people because exceptional people are interesting.
Uh, I don't know if you've read a Batman comic in the last 25-30 years, but Batman didn't suddenly wake up as an expert martial artist and detective. There was a progression, unlike Rey.
So no, you're still flat wrong.
Oh hey! You're back!
I didn't say his martial arts or his detective skills I said his intellect. His raw intelligence. Give me a reason why the only people on the planet more intelligent then him are meta humans with enhanced intelligence or have something wrong with them to make them smarter. And even THOSE people are less intelligent than him the vast majority of the time. Or, we could keep talking about starwars.
Skaorn wrote: Since we're talking about characters acting out of character and sloppy, lazy writing I'd like to bring up TFA and something that always bothered me. What ever gave anyone the impression that Luke Skywalker would ever abandon the people he cared about? I mean he ultimately didn't give up on his father, space Himmler. He sensed a tiny bit of good in his heart underneath the bodies of all the children his dad killed and still managed to hold onto that hope even with his sister now threatened. His nephew you though, eh who cares, I'm out. Seems very unlike him to me.
TLJ actually managed to salvage it for me in an okay way by making it about Luke's failure and not Ben's. It's still him giving up though. They wrote themselves out of a hole imo, but it was a pretty deep hole.
Luke Skywalker has always been quite a bit of a mopey guy. It's outside influences that kick him into gear. People he looks up to or are authoritative figures he answers to.
In the aftermath of RotJ he is the one and only Jedi master. Obi and Yoda are dead. His father is dead. His sister is closer to a peer, but not when it comes to Jedi/the force where he is basically top dog (as far as he knows). Everyone looks up to him and he has nobody to kick him into gear. So when he fails he retreats and mopes. Like Luke does. Luke needs council. He needs someone to bounce ideas off of and give him advice. Left to his own thoughts he thinks of his losses.
This was a very good and natural progression of the character considering the things we learned about what he saw.
Watching TLJ, it was just one shockingly dumb idea after another. Yoda appearing was yet another astonishingly stupid element. Making him act like a weird moron was just gak icing on the gak cake.
At the very least Luke didn't ride around on Rey like a backpack while remarking "Hmmm, hmmm."
But while I agree Yoda didn't need to be in TLJ, the way he acted in that scene wasn't too far off from some of the scenes where he's training Luke. Indeed his seemingly wise statements about the dark side consuming the people who start down that path are proven wrong in RoTJ, which makes it doubly weird when he claims that Luke lost Ben. As of TLJ Yoda knows people can be pulled back from the dark side, his force ghost is standing right there next to Anakin's at the conclusion of the OT.
Watching TLJ, it was just one shockingly dumb idea after another. Yoda appearing was yet another astonishingly stupid element. Making him act like a weird moron was just gak icing on the gak cake.
At the very least Luke didn't ride around on Rey like a backpack while remarking "Hmmm, hmmm."
But while I agree Yoda didn't need to be in TLJ, the way he acted in that scene wasn't too far off from some of the scenes where he's training Luke. Indeed his seemingly wise statements about the dark side consuming the people who start down that path are proven wrong in RoTJ, which makes it doubly weird when he claims that Luke lost Ben. As of TLJ Yoda knows people can be pulled back from the dark side, his force ghost is standing right there next to Anakin's at the conclusion of the OT.
A constant in the OT is both Obi and Yoda saying something that is only kind of true when viewed in the right context but isn't wholly true.
They tell Luke what they think he needs to hear to set him on the path they think he needs to take. That often involves at the very least lies of omission.
Yoda tells Luke "There is nothing in there that Rey does not already posses". Which tells luke that she doesn't need the books. Omitting that Rey stole the books already. You have to look at EVERYTHING they say to Luke through that lens. What do they want Luke to know. What are they trying to nudge Luke into doing and what conclusions do they want Luke to reach. Saying Luke lost ben might be Yodas way to kick Luke in the pants and get him to have hope for the kid again in the same way that hearing he would have to face Vader made Luke try to save him.
A constant in the OT is both Obi and Yoda saying something that is only kind of true when viewed in the right context but isn't wholly true.
They tell Luke what they think he needs to hear to set him on the path they think he needs to take. That often involves at the very least lies of omission.
Yoda tells Luke "There is nothing in there that Rey does not already posses". Which tells luke that she doesn't need the books. Omitting that Rey stole the books already. You have to look at EVERYTHING they say to Luke through that lens. What do they want Luke to know. What are they trying to nudge Luke into doing and what conclusions do they want Luke to reach. Saying Luke lost ben might be Yodas way to kick Luke in the pants and get him to have hope for the kid again in the same way that hearing he would have to face Vader made Luke try to save him.
So Yoda and Obi are both manipulative pricks, making them no better than Palpatine or Snoke?
Putting in that manner tends to forget that they tend to do it to teach someone to help themselves. Because saying you are no better then "Genocide the Jedi, Enslave the wookies and galaxy" Palpatine and "Genocide the species on that one planet, take over the galaxy" is.. kind of summing up things in a very weird fashion.
It is the movie-equivalent of a comic-book tie-in, the story between two real stories to let you know how they got from A to B. If this were an OT story, it'd be the comic book that told you how to got from Yavin to Hoth.
Because saying you are no better then "Genocide the Jedi, Enslave the wookies and galaxy" Palpatine and "Genocide the species on that one planet, take over the galaxy" is.. kind of summing up things in a very weird fashion.
Canonically the Sith were founded by a Jedi, the Wookies were already de facto enslaved by the Transdoshans, and Palp didn't enslave anyone. The slavery was all done by the Hutts.
A constant in the OT is both Obi and Yoda saying something that is only kind of true when viewed in the right context but isn't wholly true.
They tell Luke what they think he needs to hear to set him on the path they think he needs to take. That often involves at the very least lies of omission.
Yoda tells Luke "There is nothing in there that Rey does not already posses". Which tells luke that she doesn't need the books. Omitting that Rey stole the books already. You have to look at EVERYTHING they say to Luke through that lens. What do they want Luke to know. What are they trying to nudge Luke into doing and what conclusions do they want Luke to reach. Saying Luke lost ben might be Yodas way to kick Luke in the pants and get him to have hope for the kid again in the same way that hearing he would have to face Vader made Luke try to save him.
So Yoda and Obi are both manipulative pricks, making them no better than Palpatine or Snoke?
If thats how you want to see it then see it that way. Thats how it is.
They don't tell Luke things strait up and they never have. So analyzing what they are telling Luke in THIS movie at face value goes against their character.
They don't tell Luke things strait up and they never have. So analyzing what they are telling Luke in THIS movie at face value goes against their character.
Which means they've always been manipulative pricks.
They don't tell Luke things strait up and they never have. So analyzing what they are telling Luke in THIS movie at face value goes against their character.
Which means they've always been manipulative pricks.
To be fair they are pretty standard in fiction/fantasty/sci-fi - Gandalf, Merlin etc etc all tell their charges / people what they think people need to be told in order to get stuff done - great good and all that.
To be fair they are pretty standard in fiction/fantasty/sci-fi - Gandalf, Merlin etc etc all tell their charges / people what they think people need to be told in order to get stuff done - great good and all that.
The angels and gods of the Tolkien universe are expected to be manipulative; they're angels and gods. Yoda and Obi-Wan aren't angels and gods.
To be fair they are pretty standard in fiction/fantasty/sci-fi - Gandalf, Merlin etc etc all tell their charges / people what they think people need to be told in order to get stuff done - great good and all that.
The angels and gods of the Tolkien universe are expected to be manipulative; they're angels and gods. Yoda and Obi-Wan aren't angels and gods.
Im not sure what point you are trying to make.
Did you watch the ot? At any point obi could have said. Vaders your dad. The emperor corrupted him. Leias your sister. Dont kiss her. Sorry we raised you in the galaxys butt hole run by a slug monster farming moisture while your sister lived in a palace on a verdant world, but the irony of hiding one of anakins sons on his home world with the same last name was too big an opportunity to pass up. We jedi do it for the lulz.
To be fair they are pretty standard in fiction/fantasty/sci-fi - Gandalf, Merlin etc etc all tell their charges / people what they think people need to be told in order to get stuff done - great good and all that.
The angels and gods of the Tolkien universe are expected to be manipulative; they're angels and gods. Yoda and Obi-Wan aren't angels and gods.
Merlin's not a god, the druid out of Shanara isn't, there are very many examples of similar figures in literature and fiction.
Also Yoda and Obi-wan pretty much do become angels.
Because saying you are no better then "Genocide the Jedi, Enslave the wookies and galaxy" Palpatine and "Genocide the species on that one planet, take over the galaxy" is.. kind of summing up things in a very weird fashion.
Canonically the Sith were founded by a Jedi, the Wookies were already de facto enslaved by the Transdoshans, and Palp didn't enslave anyone. The slavery was all done by the Hutts.
Yeah the Sith overall were founded.... Well okay it depends on what sources being used, as it seems to be in general they've been changing how the Sith overall started each time and I'm not actually sure what the current disneycanon is. Though Jedi don't exactly help themselves when it comes to giving the Sith new members due to their rules.
The Wookie's were enslaved by the Trandoshans while being given direct benefit to do so by the Empire. Which turned the planet into a defacto slave race for the Empire in general while granting the Trandoshans overall power as a result. The Empire quite overlooks the slave trade when it comes to aliens since they generally were very humancentric. Though I imagine if there was a reason the Empire would've eventually turned and tried to conquer the outer rim fully and take over the Hutts operations.
A constant in the OT is both Obi and Yoda saying something that is only kind of true when viewed in the right context but isn't wholly true.
They tell Luke what they think he needs to hear to set him on the path they think he needs to take. That often involves at the very least lies of omission.
Yoda tells Luke "There is nothing in there that Rey does not already posses". Which tells luke that she doesn't need the books. Omitting that Rey stole the books already. You have to look at EVERYTHING they say to Luke through that lens. What do they want Luke to know. What are they trying to nudge Luke into doing and what conclusions do they want Luke to reach. Saying Luke lost ben might be Yodas way to kick Luke in the pants and get him to have hope for the kid again in the same way that hearing he would have to face Vader made Luke try to save him.
So Yoda and Obi are both manipulative pricks, making them no better than Palpatine or Snoke?
Wow, talk about a whole lot of Whataboutism right there!
No, they are in no way equivalent. Yes, they are all manipulative. One wants to push some one for self-improvement and betterment, while the others are bent on power, control and destruction. I really hope you can see the difference in philosophy there.
That is like saying Dale Carnegie (who wrote How to Win Friends and Influence People) is no different than Hitler because they both were about Persuasion through communication. Their goals and methods in the use of Persuasion were very different.
You know, the plot to even the original trilogy is pretty far fetched when you think about it. It started going off the rails with RotJ when Leia suddenly turned out to be Luke’s sister (even Vader as Luke’s dad can be explained). Then the prequels came along and...dear god.
It’s not the space magic that’s the problem. It’s the fact that there’s so many contrived coincidences and people don’t act the way you’d expect adults to act. That we still (somewhat) enjoy it despite these shows how good it is.
Future War Cultist wrote: You know, the plot to even the original trilogy is pretty far fetched when you think about it. It started going off the rails with RotJ when Leia suddenly turned out to be Luke’s sister (even Vader as Luke’s dad can be explained). Then the prequels came along and...dear god.
It’s not the space magic that’s the problem. It’s the fact that there’s so many contrived coincidences and people don’t act the way you’d expect adults to act. That we still (somewhat) enjoy it despite these shows how good it is.
Absolutely, I am not a "fan" of star wars as movies, I much prefered the books even though quality wise they were all over the place, at least they were mostly (hah) consistent and followed a defined path, one thing led to another in a kind of logical sense.
No, they are in no way equivalent. Yes, they are all manipulative. One wants to push some one for self-improvement and betterment, while the others are bent on power, control and destruction. I really hope you can see the difference in philosophy there.
Is self-improvement not power for the Jedi? Betterment for the Jedi? Control for the Jedi? The Sith push their devotees for all of those things.
No, they are in no way equivalent. Yes, they are all manipulative. One wants to push some one for self-improvement and betterment, while the others are bent on power, control and destruction. I really hope you can see the difference in philosophy there.
Is self-improvement not power for the Jedi? Betterment for the Jedi? Control for the Jedi? The Sith push their devotees for all of those things.
The Sith Code
Spoiler:
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
The Jedi Code
Spoiler:
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
May not be relevant but it's always something that's intrigued me how similar, but very different they are.
I really enjoyed TLJ. I don't think it was quite as much a subversion of SW, as a revisionist take on SW, which I thought the franchise needed.
Were there plot holes? Sure. Were there more plot holes than ESB, which is my other fave? Nope. Do I gauge my enjoyment of a SW movie primarily by counting plot holes? Nope.
Ian Sturrock wrote: I really enjoyed TLJ. I don't think it was quite as much a subversion of SW, as a revisionist take on SW, which I thought the franchise needed.
Were there plot holes? Sure. Were there more plot holes than ESB, which is my other fave? Nope. Do I gauge my enjoyment of a SW movie primarily by counting plot holes? Nope.
can I ask what were the particular things that stood out for you in it as quite interested? thanks
Ian Sturrock wrote: I really enjoyed TLJ. I don't think it was quite as much a subversion of SW, as a revisionist take on SW, which I thought the franchise needed.
Were there plot holes? Sure. Were there more plot holes than ESB, which is my other fave? Nope. Do I gauge my enjoyment of a SW movie primarily by counting plot holes? Nope.
I've never thought that SW holds up well even to a moderate level of scrutiny and analysis. Then again, I was never an EU person, and perhaps it added some kind of support that lent strength to the whole enterprise. I dunno.
Ian Sturrock wrote: I really enjoyed TLJ. I don't think it was quite as much a subversion of SW, as a revisionist take on SW, which I thought the franchise needed.
Were there plot holes? Sure. Were there more plot holes than ESB, which is my other fave? Nope. Do I gauge my enjoyment of a SW movie primarily by counting plot holes? Nope.
can I ask what were the particular things that stood out for you in it as quite interested? thanks
You can Google that and get examples. The entire battle of Hoth is a good place to start.
Again, did you watch the OT? By RotJ everything obi and yoda have said to him was at least misinformation.
They're also just plain wrong a lot. What would have happened to Leia -- and thereby the entire Rebel Alliance -- if Luke doesn't go to Bespin to get R2 on board the Falcon to fix the hyperdrive?
Ian Sturrock wrote: I really enjoyed TLJ. I don't think it was quite as much a subversion of SW, as a revisionist take on SW, which I thought the franchise needed.
Were there plot holes? Sure. Were there more plot holes than ESB, which is my other fave? Nope. Do I gauge my enjoyment of a SW movie primarily by counting plot holes? Nope.
I've never thought that SW holds up well even to a moderate level of scrutiny and analysis. Then again, I was never an EU person, and perhaps it added some kind of support that lent strength to the whole enterprise. I dunno.
Ian Sturrock wrote: I really enjoyed TLJ. I don't think it was quite as much a subversion of SW, as a revisionist take on SW, which I thought the franchise needed.
Were there plot holes? Sure. Were there more plot holes than ESB, which is my other fave? Nope. Do I gauge my enjoyment of a SW movie primarily by counting plot holes? Nope.
can I ask what were the particular things that stood out for you in it as quite interested? thanks
You can Google that and get examples. The entire battle of Hoth is a good place to start.
Again, did you watch the OT? By RotJ everything obi and yoda have said to him was at least misinformation.
They're also just plain wrong a lot. What would have happened to Leia -- and thereby the entire Rebel Alliance -- if Luke doesn't go to Bespin to get R2 on board the Falcon to fix the hyperdrive?
Leia is starlingly unimportant to the rebel alliance.
Had she perished on Bespin, ultimately someone else would have been assigned as flight crew to the shuttle Tyderium. This might have lead to Luke Skywalker staying at home, which might well have prevented Vader noticing the entire rebel striketeam turning up.
She does nothing further of concequence for the rebellion once aquiring the death star plans until Star Wars legends.
dogma wrote: Indeed his seemingly wise statements about the dark side consuming the people who start down that path are proven wrong in RoTJ, which makes it doubly weird when he claims that Luke lost Ben. As of TLJ Yoda knows people can be pulled back from the dark side, his force ghost is standing right there next to Anakin's at the conclusion of the OT.
That's a good point, although it also - at least in my opinion - really calls into question the "happy ending" of RotJ. Vader's redemption was sacrificing himself in order to save his son from being murdered - or worse, being chained to the will of the Emperor, as he himself had been. But does this really earn him a place in "Jedi Heaven" alongside Obi-Wan and Yoda? Nowadays, we could tease apart the notion that being a Force Ghost is equivalent to achieving Jedi sainthood but it seems to me that was clearly the message of that shot in RotJ.
Consider for a moment, what if Anakin had survived the end of RotJ? Would he have suddenly been a completely reformed good guy? I really doubt it. Years of suffering, pain, and anger had twisted his psyche and personality. I think he would have remained a tyrannical bully just by default, at least for years to come. In which time, Luke would really have to face the truth of what Obi-Wan said: that Vader was indeed twisted and evil; that there are not two personalities, the good Anakin and the evil Vader. Rather there is just one person, someone who collapsed under admittedly severe moral and psychological pressures but ultimately willingly embraced evil, up to and including tortuing his own daughter (albeit unbeknownst to him) on at least two separate occasions. Recovering Dark Side Addict Darth Vader would not have just automatically transformed into a nice old grandpa. It would have taken years of hard work to give up and move past all that trauma and bloodlust.Maybe he would have never changed entirely.
As it stands, he made one noble choice after years of evil, terrible deeds and then, probably fortunately for everyone, died immediately. Well, not fortunately for Ben Solo, I guess, because I think Anakin's death and the fact that Luke didn't have to deal with his father for years to come as basically a recovering addict, skewed Luke's viewpoint to a more simplistic black/white approach that left him completely unprepared to deal with a student like Ben. Here is where TLJ could have made some realy headway with Luke, Ben, and even Rey: maybe while training Rey, Luke could begin to realize that just like how Yoda and Obi-Wan's view of Vader left no room of hope that Anakin might not be completely inhuman, so too did Luke's view of Ben preclude the notion, if only for a(n all-importnat) moment, that Ben needing training rather than murdering in his bed in the middle of the night.
I was 9 years old I think, when the first Star Wars film was released (before it was retroactively renamed A New Hope). I was swept up in the whole Star Wars mania, as were all of my friends. It was, I thought, the most amazing film ever made. There was never any expectation that there would be sequel. Sequels weren’t that big a thing back then, so when Empire was announced, we were all very excited and I ended up loving that too.
However, in the time between Empire and Return of the Jedi, I became a teenager. I was interested in music, discovered that girls weren’t icky after all and lost all interest in toys and kids movies. So, when Return of the Jedi was released, I didn’t go see it.
In fact I don’t think I watch RotJ until I was in my twenties, many years later, more out of curiosity. It was interesting to see how they had ended the story. I quite enjoyed it.
The prequels I went to see out of a sense of nostalgia for my childhood. I found them disappointing and they often made no sense. I mean, I was expected to believe that it was the good guys who were the ones using an army of clones, that were essentially slaves? The prequels even managed to make the original trilogy seem worse, by making some of it make no sense in the context of the 6 movies.
So my opinion of the sequel trilogy is basically, I don’t see the point of them. The story ended with RotJ in a pretty satisfying way. The prequels don’t feel like the next chapter, so much as a tribute act. They’re all the same things rehashed with worse characters and better effects. They dialogue isn’t as cringingly awful as Lucas’ could be, but there’s no spark somehow.
I watched TLJ and quite enjoyed it in places. Some of the visuals were fantastic, but the story felt weak. I don’t feel like it really went anywhere and I honestly don’t care what happens next.
I mean, Star Wars is ok. Just ok. I can watch a Star Wars film and not be bored, but if Disney announced they were pulling the plug tomorrow and there would never be another Star Wars film ... well, whatever. There are much more interesting films being made.
gorgon wrote: Leia could potentially give up a ridiculous amount of intel. Sure, she resisted in ANH, but that was apparently only one go at it before she escaped.
She also commands the evacuation of Echo Base, gets Han to stay around, participates in his rescue by dressing up as Boushh, strangles Jabba to death with a gold chain while wearing a gold bikini, and with C-3PO gets the Ewoks on the Rebels side.
Consider for a moment, what if Anakin had survived the end of RotJ? Would he have suddenly been a completely reformed good guy? I really doubt it. Years of suffering, pain, and anger had twisted his psyche and personality. I think he would have remained a tyrannical bully just by default, at least for years to come. In which time, Luke would really have to face the truth of what Obi-Wan said: that Vader was indeed twisted and evil; that there are not two personalities, the good Anakin and the evil Vader. Rather there is just one person, someone who collapsed under admittedly severe moral and psychological pressures but ultimately willingly embraced evil, up to and including tortuing his own daughter (albeit unbeknownst to him) on at least two separate occasions. Recovering Dark Side Addict Darth Vader would not have just automatically transformed into a nice old grandpa. It would have taken years of hard work to give up and move past all that trauma and bloodlust.Maybe he would have never changed entirely.
A fair point, and to expand on it if Anakin survives he's almost certainly gotta go into a self-imposed exile because you know there's a bunch of people throughout the galaxy that want his blood; especially a lot of members of the Alliance. Most people aren't just going to take Luke at his word that Vader saved his life and offed Palpatine, and would probably take a suspicious view of the twins if it became widely known that Vader was their father. In fact if Vader doesn't die in RoTJ Luke probably wouldn't get any support for his attempt to refound the Jedi Order, it was a proximal cause of a galaxy wide war and brutal empire, and Leia probably doesn't become a major government figure.
As it stands, he made one noble choice after years of evil, terrible deeds and then, probably fortunately for everyone, died immediately. Well, not fortunately for Ben Solo, I guess, because I think Anakin's death and the fact that Luke didn't have to deal with his father for years to come as basically a recovering addict, skewed Luke's viewpoint to a more simplistic black/white approach that left him completely unprepared to deal with a student like Ben. Here is where TLJ could have made some realy headway with Luke, Ben, and even Rey: maybe while training Rey, Luke could begin to realize that just like how Yoda and Obi-Wan's view of Vader left no room of hope that Anakin might not be completely inhuman, so too did Luke's view of Ben preclude the notion, if only for a(n all-importnat) moment, that Ben needing training rather than murdering in his bed in the middle of the night.
By the time of TLJ Luke knows Ben not only killed all of his students, but his own father/Luke's best friend. I think that somewhat justifies Luke's belief that Ben is beyond redemption, those actions were a lot more personal than Vader's atrocities. But you're right, TLJ absolutely should have had Luke running with the Gray Jedi concept; it's already set up in the OT.
The issue is the Gray Jedi in the movie canon are just Jedi who do not answer to the council. Qui Gon Jinn was a Grey Jedi and to a much lesser extent Obi Wan was heading that way. The council was all "Don't train this kid" and Qui Gon was all "Yeah, thanks but no thanks, I am going to anyway" because he was Gray.
It's only in certain EU material that Grey Jedi refers to someone who trains in both the light and dark and tries to find a balance. And those sources are no longer valid.
and would probably take a suspicious view of the twins if it became widely known that Vader was their father.
This was how the novels actually explained why Leia fell from grace in the new republic.. First Order Plot that revealed that she was really Darth Vaders daughter.
At the very least Luke didn't ride around on Rey like a backpack while remarking "Hmmm, hmmm."
Are you sure about that?
Spoiler:
There is a part of me that thinks this actually should have happened in the movie, I mean the movie is already almost parody level at some moments... it is might as well embrace it 100%.
I didn't say his martial arts or his detective skills I said his intellect. His raw intelligence. Give me a reason why the only people on the planet more intelligent then him are meta humans with enhanced intelligence or have something wrong with them to make them smarter. And even THOSE people are less intelligent than him the vast majority of the time. Or, we could keep talking about starwars.
The issue here, for me, is that raw intelligence is not something I need to have explained. Some people are just born with intellectual gifts that dwarf the common man, it happens in the world and we have many great thinkers throughout history to prove it. I have no problem that Batman was born an extremely intelligent person who then worked himself up to master detective after years of studying and practising his craft. Rey's spontaneous proficiency with the Force is absolutely something that I need to have explained, because it runs so contrary to the established rules of the Star Wars universe. Luke was Force sensitive his entire life but that sensitivity manifested itself in very subtle ways, like being able to bullseye native life on Tatooine in his skyhopper. It wasn't until he actually started working at it with Obi-Wan that he was able to do anything that would qualify as space magic.
Rey? Completely throws all that out of the window. She not only resists but actually reverses a mind probe, beats Kylo Ren after she was thrown hard enough into a tree to be knocked out, flys the Falcon better than Han, etc. Sure, Luke manages to fly an X-wing, but he at least had some experience flying in his T-16. Rey is depicted as a homeless scavenger who scrounges parts all day just to get her next meal, when the flying feth would she possibly have learned to be a pilot? And a pilot that's that good? Everything about Rey just flies in the face of the Star Wars universe, which is a huge reason why I really dislike the sequel trilogy. It's fine if they want to make her powerful, but they need to make her earn it.
It's only in certain EU material that Grey Jedi refers to someone who trains in both the light and dark and tries to find a balance. And those sources are no longer valid.
They were never cannon, but that doesn't mean they can't be inspiration. After all, Thrawn is now cannon.
There is a part of me that thinks this actually should have happened in the movie, I mean the movie is already almost parody level at some moments... it is might as well embrace it 100%.
Daisy Ridley is only like 30 pounds lighter than Mark Hamill, the same height, and 40 years younger. I think she could manage it...maybe not with a front flip.
creeping-deth87 wrote: Sure, Luke manages to fly an X-wing, but he at least had some experience flying in his T-16.
The T-16 was also made by the same company, and Luke states they have similar controls.
One day, I’m going to start a thread in which we talk about how to ‘fix’ the plot of Star Wars from start to finish. And it’ll be highly...contentious and will probably be shut down asap. But good ideas will be had by all.
At the very least Luke didn't ride around on Rey like a backpack while remarking "Hmmm, hmmm."
Are you sure about that?
Spoiler:
There is a part of me that thinks this actually should have happened in the movie, I mean the movie is already almost parody level at some moments... it is might as well embrace it 100%.
My first thought was that pic wouldn't have been possible several years ago.
I didn't say his martial arts or his detective skills I said his intellect. His raw intelligence. Give me a reason why the only people on the planet more intelligent then him are meta humans with enhanced intelligence or have something wrong with them to make them smarter. And even THOSE people are less intelligent than him the vast majority of the time. Or, we could keep talking about starwars.
The issue here, for me, is that raw intelligence is not something I need to have explained. Some people are just born with intellectual gifts that dwarf the common man, it happens in the world and we have many great thinkers throughout history to prove it. I have no problem that Batman was born an extremely intelligent person who then worked himself up to master detective after years of studying and practising his craft. Rey's spontaneous proficiency with the Force is absolutely something that I need to have explained, because it runs so contrary to the established rules of the Star Wars universe. Luke was Force sensitive his entire life but that sensitivity manifested itself in very subtle ways, like being able to bullseye native life on Tatooine in his skyhopper. It wasn't until he actually started working at it with Obi-Wan that he was able to do anything that would qualify as space magic.
Rey? Completely throws all that out of the window. She not only resists but actually reverses a mind probe, beats Kylo Ren after she was thrown hard enough into a tree to be knocked out, flys the Falcon better than Han, etc. Sure, Luke manages to fly an X-wing, but he at least had some experience flying in his T-16. Rey is depicted as a homeless scavenger who scrounges parts all day just to get her next meal, when the flying feth would she possibly have learned to be a pilot? And a pilot that's that good? Everything about Rey just flies in the face of the Star Wars universe, which is a huge reason why I really dislike the sequel trilogy. It's fine if they want to make her powerful, but they need to make her earn it.
Except luke says i have only seen this raw power once before.
I didn't say his martial arts or his detective skills I said his intellect. His raw intelligence. Give me a reason why the only people on the planet more intelligent then him are meta humans with enhanced intelligence or have something wrong with them to make them smarter. And even THOSE people are less intelligent than him the vast majority of the time. Or, we could keep talking about starwars.
The issue here, for me, is that raw intelligence is not something I need to have explained. Some people are just born with intellectual gifts that dwarf the common man, it happens in the world and we have many great thinkers throughout history to prove it. I have no problem that Batman was born an extremely intelligent person who then worked himself up to master detective after years of studying and practising his craft. Rey's spontaneous proficiency with the Force is absolutely something that I need to have explained, because it runs so contrary to the established rules of the Star Wars universe. Luke was Force sensitive his entire life but that sensitivity manifested itself in very subtle ways, like being able to bullseye native life on Tatooine in his skyhopper. It wasn't until he actually started working at it with Obi-Wan that he was able to do anything that would qualify as space magic.
Rey? Completely throws all that out of the window. She not only resists but actually reverses a mind probe, beats Kylo Ren after she was thrown hard enough into a tree to be knocked out, flys the Falcon better than Han, etc. Sure, Luke manages to fly an X-wing, but he at least had some experience flying in his T-16. Rey is depicted as a homeless scavenger who scrounges parts all day just to get her next meal, when the flying feth would she possibly have learned to be a pilot? And a pilot that's that good? Everything about Rey just flies in the face of the Star Wars universe, which is a huge reason why I really dislike the sequel trilogy. It's fine if they want to make her powerful, but they need to make her earn it.
From Wookiepedia:
Inside the walker, Rey also had a computer display from an old BTL-A4 Y-wing assault starfighter/bomber that she used to learn alien languages, study the schematics of Republic and Imperial starships, and run flight simulations in order to hone her skills as a pilot.
The main differences between Rey and Luke have to do with time. There are obviously ridiculous concepts and conceits that people have a much longer history with, and those that have been recently presented to us.
It makes no sense that even a professional atmospheric stunt pilot -- which Luke is not -- would be able to hop into a space fighter and do what he did at the battle of the Death Star. I *believe* that attempts to iron over this point were made as early as the SW radio show, which IIRC had a scene on Yavin with Luke being tested out in the simulator. And was that in the novelization as well? I'm not sure. But there are many more equivalencies between Rey and Luke than there are differences. It's just that we've had four decades of getting used to the idea of Luke doing those things.
What Luke did? You mean almost get himself killed at the Battle of Yavin?
It was only the Force that let him make the final shot, his squadronmates and Han kept him from getting killed by TIEs, and he almost crashed into the freaking Death Star making a strafing run against some Turbo-laser batteries. Not that impressive really.
gorgon wrote: It's just that we've had four decades of getting used to the idea of Luke doing those things.
They were also introduced to us when we were younger and less aware of our own limitations and failings. We hadn't yet let life beat us into submission and still generally believe we can do anything we see someone else do.
Scrabb wrote:Yeah, Lance ignored me when I tried to engage him on one of his (many, many) points about the sequel trilogy whilst having plenty of time and energy to trade barbs with that dorito fellow.
He's arguing concurrently that Luke is both a mary sue and unwanted, uninteresting, and incapable.
He also thinks Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past even though he spends rather a lot of screen time hanging on a wall for falling on the wrong side of a gangster's good will so....
idk.
Sorry you fealt ignored. I likely just missed it in my trading barbs with the dorito fellow. That was a lot of fun for me.
No worries. If you post on dakka expecting a response you're gonna have a bad time.
Lukes big strength isn't his fighting ability or his power with the force. He's not super exceptional with either. It's his conviction. He almost looses his gak and starts to go dark giving in to his anger and hate when he takes off vaders arm in RotJ. What makes Luke great is that he then goes right back, throws his lightsaber away and is willing to die right then and there instead of turning. Lukes REAL greatness as a character is his conviction.
*stands and applauds*
That being said, hes equally at fault for all the things people peg on Rey. He learns force powers as he needs them. He's a flat cardboard person in ANH and most of Empire. And until the prequels told us about the prophecy he was just some guy who was strong in the force for no reason. But hey, it's all ok back then and bad now. Why?
and we're back to disagreeing. I don't think either Luke or Rey is a flat character. Luke's "I want to get off this backwards desert planet and explore the galaxy" is more relatable to me than Rey's "I'm waiting for my parents so I can have a sense of belonging."
It's okay back then and not now because it was one thing back then and another thing now.
Luke gets pwned by tusken raiders while Rey does the pwning. The first time anyone is better than her at anything (engineering/melee combat/piloting/using the force/marksmanship) is when she's brought into the presence of the supreme leader of the First Order. This is despite her learning how to use a blaster in a twelve second clip and having zero formal force training. Luke had training before he could move an object. Luke had a lot of training before he was attempting to manipulate minds with the force. They just aren't the same thing.
Also Han was supposed to die at the end of Empire. Fords contract was up and it was the ending he wanted. His part in RotJ was added due to the characters popularity. And no, Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past. Because he didn't learn anything from it. 30 years later hes in another ship being the same kind of criminal.
And this is where you completely lose me. He hasn't suffered is not the same thing as he hasn't learned. Han definitely suffered. And him ending up back as a smuggler is him suffering. Remember, he got settled down. Had a kid. And he failed at that life and was failing at smuggling as well. Don't you remember those gangsters mocking him in TFA?
And you bounce around erratically with your arguments. You post: fan theories, real world studio contract business, the content of the actual movies, and EU canon interchangeably in your arguments depending on which strata agrees most closely with your intended effect.
Anything not actually in these movies cannot legitimately be deployed to defend them.
Scrabb amply demonstrates that trying to justify the inept characterization of Rey by attacking that of Luke just demonstrates that one simply doesn’t recall the OT movies clearly.
It makes no sense that even a professional atmospheric stunt pilot -- which Luke is not -- would be able to hop into a space fighter and do what he did at the battle of the Death Star. I *believe* that attempts to iron over this point were made as early as the SW radio show, which IIRC had a scene on Yavin with Luke being tested out in the simulator. And was that in the novelization as well? I'm not sure. But there are many more equivalencies between Rey and Luke than there are differences. It's just that we've had four decades of getting used to the idea of Luke doing those things.
Luke wasn't getting paid to fly his T-16 around, but it's established that he had exceptional skills by the the Beggar's Canyon exchange with Biggs. He also had support from all the other Alliance pilots, the Falcon, and Obi-Wan's force ghost; it isn't like he did it on his own.
I forgot that important fact: in Luke’s first fight he’s beaten unconscious by sand people, in Rey’s first fight she beats the crap out of several goons and the stormtrooper Finn. That was an early warning sign...
So, to reclairfy my points without triggering the mod again:
In my view this film was awful. Really, really awful. In fact I want the First Order to win, as there is no conceivable way for the Rebels to survive. In fact, lets make that my first point.
The Rebellion is dead. BTFO'd. Gone. They went from the ruling government in the first film to being at war and hurt. By the time this film starts they are losing badly (which does make you wonder how the first order was able to build such a vast fleet in the first place without anyone knowing) and have pretty much become the Rebellion again. But they still have a fl-waitaminute. Yes, they have a fleet. A small one, with only a few Cruisers as their capital ships, and they seem to lack any dedicated carriers. To make matter weirder we later find that the bombers we saw in the opening sequence where the only ones they possess, which means the fighters must also be the only ones, which means that they must have lost the rest of their fighter/bomber reserves. This is not a fighting force now, this is a crippled hound. They are low on ships and on fighter/bombers which means they cannot really fight.
If this was not bad enough we later learn that all of the rebellion is in this fleet, said fleet which then gets mullered by the First Order. By the end of the film the Alliance has gone from having a small but serviceable fleet with a strike complement of small craft and numbers totalling a few thousand to having no capital ships, no small craft, a total of about 100 people at the most and most likely less, and having a single armed freighter. That is it. And to make matters worse nobody cares about them, we where told so in the film, the other planets do not care about the Rebellion at all. They are gone, nothing is left. There is no coming back from this, not without some Writer Fiat.
Next up, the blatant SJW/Tumblr pandering. I mean, can you make this any more obvious. Look at the cast and how 'special' and 'diverse' each one is, and how 'clever' they are shown to be.... Except they are not. Ray mary sues her way through most problems by simply being the best at everything even if other people have been doing whatever it is for decades and she has only just taken it up, the ex-janitor-trooper guy does not really do much except go to find the hacker, and every chance he has at character development is blocked by the chubby asian girl whom seems to have some mental issues going on based on how she acts throughout the film. Admiral Ackbar is unceremoniously killed off and replaced by Admiral Tumblr whom then proceeds to lead the, as someone else dubbed it, Ship of Fools, on one of the stupidest exercises in all of scifi Blackwater naval history, her grand plan being to outrun the First Order Dreadnought (what happened to the rest of that fleet by the way - where they just sitting about twiddling their thumbs or something?) by slowly crawling along at the exact same speed as it, not bothering to use the lighter ships better acceleration profile to try and outmanoeuvre it or run out of range. We are then later told that she is "really clever and a strategic genius" because of her grand plan that even Leia agrees with which is to load all the survivors into the unarmoured unarmed and unshielded transports and send them running to the base whilst praying that the Cruiser keeps the enemy fleet distracted, and they dont bother to check for small vessels running under the radar.
All in all it was the two female characters, Chubby and Tumblr, who got to me the most as the writers had two other perfectly good female characters whom would actually have been better, but they chose to kill them off. The Bomber Gunner whom saw her crew die, but still managed to complete her mission. Getting back to her carrier she would most likely be traumatised and this could lead to a character trying to overcome their fear of void combat and return to the fight, coping with the loss of her friends and the guilt of having survived where they did not, struggling to overcome these in order to help try and save the rebels and prevent her remaining friends from being killed. We also had the A-wing ace, a rival to the male ace and someone who could have been developed a lot more. Both where killed off in favour of the SJW approved versions.
Add in all the other nonsense such as freeing the alien space ponies, the all white men are evil, etc, and you just get a clusterfeth of the worst kind of internet memeage.
And then we move on to the scriptwriting, all the witter banter and random access humour that was so funny, so utterly hilarious.... Except it was not. that first intro bit with the ace calling admiral whatshisname and the whole scene of him doing the "Are you there yet, guess I'll hold, etc" was just, well, boring. It added nothing to the film except to increase the runtime and it really did not make anyone laugh, unless they did so because of the cringe factor. Luke tossing the lightsaber - so funny! Such wit! Not. I just could not get into the humour, and none of the lads I was watching with could either.
The First Order is another point. What is it exactly. We had the build up in the first film as to how scary and dangerous Snord is, we see him using force lighting in this film, he is THE Big Bad, and then he just ups and dies like that. The worst part is how he does it - in this stupidly drawn out sequence where, whilst monitoring Bens brain, he somehow manages to fail to notice Bens intentions to stab him instead of Ray which is.... Stupid really. So the Big Bad is dead, what happens now? Well, nothing really, nothing changes. For someone whom was bigged up as this huge force of evil which everything rested on, Snorks death had a noticably pathetic affect on the rest of the universe. He dies and the First Order sort of shrugs and goes "okay then". That was it? I mean, was that it? The very lynch pin of the First Order is slain and they just proceed as if nothing had happened? Its pathetic.
Ben then takes over, and so the bad guys now have a tantrum prone manchild in charge. But hey, they have pretty much won now, so it should not matter much.
That is another thing actually, the alliance between Ben and Ray. I really wanted to see where that would have gone, but alas it was deemed verbotten by the writers. A pity too as it could have made for an interesting plot, Ray and Ben coming together and working out the differences to make a new Empire, or something similiar. Or going over to the rebels, Ben attoning for his past and trying to make things right. Or the two of them splintering away and starting a new movement of their own to balance things out. It could have been interesting, but alas, no.
Ben is the other thing. He is not a villain, he cant be. The way he is portrayed is just abysmal, he is an utter joke. A angry manchild whom tantrus every time he does not get his own way and who tries to act all cool and edgy. He is a joke, and should never be compared to Darth Vader. Vader was an actual villain, an interesting character and someone you could look at and feel frightened by. Ben is a angsty teenager trying to act cool and failing.
Of course, Ben is there as a token to the Anakin -Luke-X family, which is what Star Wars has originally been about. We have been following this one family, so we have to have an actual member of it staring in the film, as a token. But it feels hollow, the film is really all about how cool Ray is, and Ben's relation to the Skywalker family feels more like a token than anything else.
I would go on, but just thinking about the film is making my brain hurt, so there you are. My points on the latest Star Wars fanfilm.
For example: I really liked Kylo Ren in TFA. I liked that he was portrayed as moody and kind of a wannabe. But TLJ just doubles down on this, rather than growing the character. It was fun and surprising in TFA. It was just frustrating to see him undergo no character development in TLJ, especially when some of the things he does imply the potential for change and growth. Subverted again suckas!
All in all it was the two female characters, Chubby and Tumblr, who got to me the most as the writers had two other perfectly good female characters whom would actually have been better, but they chose to kill them off.
Since Carrie Fisher died in real life the only way Leia could be kept around is with weird CGI, and that was roundly criticized with the treatment of Peter Cushing in Rouge One. Rose is extraneous, but Paige can sacrifice herself without her sister being in the movie. Holdo would work if she were better written.
When Rose confesses her love to Finn, it adds an extra dimension to the developing Finn/Rey/Poe/Rey/Ren love quadrilateral.
Also I like the idea that a lowly maintenance technician can be a hero and play an important part without having to be the secret scion of a super-powered prince.
Now, imagine how that exact same story would have been received using big-name Marvel or DC characters all acting very much out of character. Superman instead of Dr. Manhattan, losing contact with humanity. Reed Richards planning world peace by blowing up several major cities.
So, the DCU x2?
Doing that with characters could work if it were something like the Injustice series, where you have Supes go full dictator. But still, that is taking known characters and creating a separate, alternate universe to answer the question of "What if this guy went rogue?"
Exactly. The Justice Lords work because they are an alternate reality. The Watchmen work because they another universe entirely. Do that sort of thing in the main line and you just lose everything - continuity, fans, and ultimately sales.
Because saying you are no better then "Genocide the Jedi, Enslave the wookies and galaxy" Palpatine and "Genocide the species on that one planet, take over the galaxy" is.. kind of summing up things in a very weird fashion.
Canonically the Sith were founded by a Jedi, the Wookies were already de facto enslaved by the Transdoshans, and Palp didn't enslave anyone. The slavery was all done by the Hutts.
Yeah the Sith overall were founded.... Well okay it depends on what sources being used, as it seems to be in general they've been changing how the Sith overall started each time and I'm not actually sure what the current disneycanon is. Though Jedi don't exactly help themselves when it comes to giving the Sith new members due to their rules.
The Wookie's were enslaved by the Trandoshans while being given direct benefit to do so by the Empire. Which turned the planet into a defacto slave race for the Empire in general while granting the Trandoshans overall power as a result. The Empire quite overlooks the slave trade when it comes to aliens since they generally were very humancentric. Though I imagine if there was a reason the Empire would've eventually turned and tried to conquer the outer rim fully and take over the Hutts operations.
True. And TLJ makes it clear the New Republic wasn't exactly antislavery either...
master of ordinance wrote: I mean, was that it? The very lynch pin of the First Order is slain and they just proceed as if nothing had happened?
The King is dead, long live the King. The FO is basically a monarchy, the only person that can challenge Kylo for leadership is a dude he can easily stab and blame it on Rey; like he blamed Snoke's killing on her.
Kilkrazy wrote: When Rose confesses her love to Finn, it adds an extra dimension to the developing Finn/Rey/Poe/Rey/Ren love quadrilateral.
Also I like the idea that a lowly maintenance technician can be a hero and play an important part without having to be the secret scion of a super-powered prince.
So what important role does Rose play?
Let's look at what she does. She mentions her sister died taking out the Dreadnaught. She stops Finn from abandoning the Resistance. She goes on a mission with Finn to retrieve a Resistance hacker... and fails. She sets a bunch of critters temporarily free while leaving slave kids to suffer. She brings a traitor back to the Resistance. She flies a skispeeder around accomplishing nothing. And then she DOOMS THE RESISTANCE by preventing Finn from taking out the Battering Ram Laser (TM) by ramming it a full minute before it fires by ramming him and nearly killing both of them. Then she declares self-sacrifice is bad (despite her sister and Admiral Hodo both doing it earlier in the film) and forces a kiss on Finn in one of the most cringeworthy sexual assaults ever shown on film.
Remove Rose and the only thing of importance that changes is that Finn gets away from the Resistance, and so does NOT assist Rose in bringing a traitor back to betray the Resistance plan. The survivors successfully hide on not-Hoth as the First Order pursues Hodo off into the vacuum.
Oh, dear, it looks like Rose harmed things far more than helped.
To be fair, every character harmed more than helped.
Future War Cultist wrote: The fact that they made Snoke the only alien in a faction full of humans (and the leader to boot) sits weird with me now. Does that make me a bigot?
Is he actually an alien or did he just lightning a saber?
The problem is we have a whole segment of the audience holding her and Hodo up as something better 'because woman', but their actions were every bit as harmful as Finn and Poe's.
Future War Cultist wrote: The fact that they made Snoke the only alien in a faction full of humans (and the leader to boot) sits weird with me now. Does that make me a bigot?
Maybe it's more a comment on how easy it is to get humans to be storm troopers for any bad idea as long as the leader appears strong.
Kilkrazy wrote: Also I like the idea that a lowly maintenance technician can be a hero and play an important part without having to be the secret scion of a super-powered prince.
For example: I really liked Kylo Ren in TFA. I liked that he was portrayed as moody and kind of a wannabe. But TLJ just doubles down on this, rather than growing the character. It was fun and surprising in TFA. It was just frustrating to see him undergo no character development in TLJ, especially when some of the things he does imply the potential for change and growth. Subverted again suckas!
I REALLY disagree with this. We see him develop a lot. Snoke mocks his helmet wearing wanna be ass and he realizes hes just been living in vader shadow and snokes shadow and trying to fit into a mold that came before. The moment he smashed that helmet to pieces was the moment he started to be his own person. When he turned on the light saber and killed snoke his chains were broken and the FO was his to grab and lead as he saw fit, fitting nobodys desires but his own.
He wanted Rey to abandon the Jedi like he abandoned snoke and have them both run off into the first order sunset. But it was HIM that wanted it. I think the TLJ saw a bunch of growth for kylos character.
Scrabb wrote:
Spoiler:
That being said, hes equally at fault for all the things people peg on Rey. He learns force powers as he needs them. He's a flat cardboard person in ANH and most of Empire. And until the prequels told us about the prophecy he was just some guy who was strong in the force for no reason. But hey, it's all ok back then and bad now. Why?
and we're back to disagreeing. I don't think either Luke or Rey is a flat character. Luke's "I want to get off this backwards desert planet and explore the galaxy" is more relatable to me than Rey's "I'm waiting for my parents so I can have a sense of belonging."
It's okay back then and not now because it was one thing back then and another thing now.
Luke gets pwned by tusken raiders while Rey does the pwning. The first time anyone is better than her at anything (engineering/melee combat/piloting/using the force/marksmanship) is when she's brought into the presence of the supreme leader of the First Order. This is despite her learning how to use a blaster in a twelve second clip and having zero formal force training. Luke had training before he could move an object. Luke had a lot of training before he was attempting to manipulate minds with the force. They just aren't the same thing.
Also Han was supposed to die at the end of Empire. Fords contract was up and it was the ending he wanted. His part in RotJ was added due to the characters popularity. And no, Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past. Because he didn't learn anything from it. 30 years later hes in another ship being the same kind of criminal.
And this is where you completely lose me. He hasn't suffered is not the same thing as he hasn't learned. Han definitely suffered. And him ending up back as a smuggler is him suffering. Remember, he got settled down. Had a kid. And he failed at that life and was failing at smuggling as well. Don't you remember those gangsters mocking him in TFA?
And you bounce around erratically with your arguments. You post: fan theories, real world studio contract business, the content of the actual movies, and EU canon interchangeably in your arguments depending on which strata agrees most closely with your intended effect.
I think we are falling into a trap of forum arguing over the course of weeks. We are starting to see individual arguments as the persons actual whole position. So I am going to rewind a sec and restate my actual position on this movie.
TLJ I enjoyed. Starwars in general is fun but incredibly dumb and also made for children (of all ages, but children first and foremost). I take particular umbrage with the Mary Sue argument because it's leveled at Rey specifically while ignoring all the other characters in all the other pop culture that are equally guilty. When I say Luke is a mary sue it's only in comparison to Rey. I don't actually think Mary Sues are a thing. I just think it's ridiculous to call out this character for it so much.
Likewise, I also don't think Rey or Luke are particularly flat. But if one is flat the other is equally flat. Because they both have about the same range and growth in their respective first 2 movies.
If your argument is that Yoda couldn't have known about what was happening to Luke and Leia, then I can explain it, either from canon sources or fan theories that just fit. This all ignoring that it's just dumb fun to begin with. If you say a character was always supposed to be "this" then I can site the litany of evidence we have that nothing was planned for so you have to take these things in chronological order of release as the dumb things they are. When I make those arguments I am arguing against someone else point in that moment.
MY point being that a lot of these judgments are unfair and based on things that either never really existed, have been confirmed to be different, or can easily be explained. If you didn't like the movie, fine. Good. Like what you like. But I must admit I really enjoy the debate and in that respect when I disagree over peoples points I like hashing it out.
Luke and Rey- Luke was a farmer who has clearly never been in a real fight and always been protected by his adoptive family. Rey had to survive on her own and has clearly had to fight to protect herself and did so. Luke SHOULD get beat down by tusken raiders. Rey SHOULD fight off a bunch of goons. Finn wasn't trying to fight anyone. He might have had some training but clearly his heart has never been in the actual fighting. We see that consistently. Also he was a janitor.
I take Reys raw power, which Luke has said hes only seen once before (referencing Ben) which means not even Vader had their raw power, to account for a lot. Rey and Kylo are on a tier all their own. I take Reys doing stuff not as anything with any finesse, but instead as plowing through barriers. Her RAW power pushed in a direction is enough to get a lot done. It makes me think of Starkiller from force unleashed. He is described in the same way. He isn't especially good with force stuff. He couldn't use the force to lift a bunch of bricks and build a wall. But on the other hand he can tear a star destroyer out of the sky and crash it into a city.
Han: I agree with what you say. But it wasn't really the point I was trying to make. Id have to go back and see what I was answering to even remember that bit. lol
Kilkrazy wrote: Also I like the idea that a lowly maintenance technician can be a hero and play an important part without having to be the secret scion of a super-powered prince.
Sure, that was Finn's deal.
And even then they made him the partly comic relief of the group. Which is one of the utterly most disappointing choices given I think he's actually far more interesting as a character then either Poe or Rey.
Kilkrazy wrote: When Rose confesses her love to Finn, it adds an extra dimension to the developing Finn/Rey/Poe/Rey/Ren love quadrilateral.
Also I like the idea that a lowly maintenance technician can be a hero and play an important part without having to be the secret scion of a super-powered prince.
So what important role does Rose play?
Let's look at what she does. She mentions her sister died taking out the Dreadnaught. She stops Finn from abandoning the Resistance. She goes on a mission with Finn to retrieve a Resistance hacker... and fails. She sets a bunch of critters temporarily free while leaving slave kids to suffer. She brings a traitor back to the Resistance. She flies a skispeeder around accomplishing nothing. And then she DOOMS THE RESISTANCE by preventing Finn from taking out the Battering Ram Laser (TM) by ramming it a full minute before it fires by ramming him and nearly killing both of them. Then she declares self-sacrifice is bad (despite her sister and Admiral Hodo both doing it earlier in the film) and forces a kiss on Finn in one of the most cringeworthy sexual assaults ever shown on film.
Remove Rose and the only thing of importance that changes is that Finn gets away from the Resistance, and so does NOT assist Rose in bringing a traitor back to betray the Resistance plan. The survivors successfully hide on not-Hoth as the First Order pursues Hodo off into the vacuum.
Oh, dear, it looks like Rose harmed things far more than helped.
The problem is we have a whole segment of the audience holding her and Hodo up as something better 'because woman', but their actions were every bit as harmful as Finn and Poe's.
Snoke obviously is a human whose features have been twisted and smeared by the power of the force to reveal his inner evil. This is a fairly common trope for evil villain characters.
The problem is we have a whole segment of the audience holding her and Hodo up as something better 'because woman', but their actions were every bit as harmful as Finn and Poe's.
Hey, Kylo Ren killed Snoke. I think that means he made the gallaxy a better place.
Kilkrazy wrote: Snoke obviously is a human whose features have been twisted and smeared by the power of the force to reveal his inner evil. This is a fairly common trope for evil villain characters.
It's fair. I mean if the emperor can become a sunken eyed grey putty man than the way snoke looks is surely acceptable.
I take Reys raw power, which Luke has said hes only seen once before (referencing Ben) which means not even Vader had their raw power, to account for a lot.
Anakin ostensibly lost a lot of his power when he became more machine than man, and that's the only version that Luke knows. In TPM he's established as having even more raw power than Yoda, that's the whole point of the midi-chlorian scene.
Kilkrazy wrote: Snoke obviously is a human whose features have been twisted and smeared by the power of the force to reveal his inner evil. This is a fairly common trope for evil villain characters.
Snoke was actually confirmed by both JJ and Rian to be an unknown alien.
I take Reys raw power, which Luke has said hes only seen once before (referencing Ben) which means not even Vader had their raw power, to account for a lot.
Anakin ostensibly lost a lot of his power when he became more machine than man, and that's the only version that Luke knows. In TPM he's established as having even more raw power than Yoda, that's the whole point of the midi-chlorian scene.
Yeah, but Luke had seen and spent a bunch of time with Yoda. And he still thought Rey and Ben had more raw power then anyone he had ever seen. And Vader, while having a bunch of robot limbs, has always still been a crazy bad ass with the force. He can choke a person across the vast distances of space.
People assume he lost a lot of his power, but nothing ever actually says this. He just had to adjust his fighting style to match his new armor and weight. More of a tank than a cgi flip machine.
Kilkrazy wrote: Snoke obviously is a human whose features have been twisted and smeared by the power of the force to reveal his inner evil. This is a fairly common trope for evil villain characters.
Snoke was actually confirmed by both JJ and Rian to be an unknown alien.
And they both said their films were great, so clearly author's intent is meaningless when it comes to analyzing Star Wars.
But okay, he's an alien. A really boring alien that looks like a tall, deformed human. Good job, star war.
Kilkrazy wrote: Snoke obviously is a human whose features have been twisted and smeared by the power of the force to reveal his inner evil. This is a fairly common trope for evil villain characters.
Snoke was actually confirmed by both JJ and Rian to be an unknown alien.
I never guessed that from seeing the film. He looked like an evil, twisted man to me. To be honest, I don't think I've ever read anything written by JJ and Rian outside their film works.
Kilkrazy wrote: Snoke obviously is a human whose features have been twisted and smeared by the power of the force to reveal his inner evil. This is a fairly common trope for evil villain characters.
Snoke was actually confirmed by both JJ and Rian to be an unknown alien.
And they both said their films were great, so clearly author's intent is meaningless when it comes to analyzing Star Wars.
But okay, he's an alien. A really boring alien that looks like a tall, deformed human. Good job, star war.
Well the novelizations and EU have been continually using this angle as well, so if somehow its subverted by the last film there's gonna be one hell of snarl. Also Star Wars has a variety of human aliens, so its not too unusual.
The T-16 was also made by the same company, and Luke states they have similar controls.
So are the Volkswagen up! and the Bugatti Veyron, but I don't think someone who commutes to work regularly in an up! is going to fling the Veyronround the Nürburgring in under eight minutes.
OK, so the controls are similar - except, one assumes, those for the deflectors, astromech interface and weapon targeting systems. The handling will be massively different (the centre of mass, moments of inertia and the layout of the engines is different) and of course, he's flying the X-Wing IN SPACE! Basically, that line is to distract us from watching Luke use magic powers to somehow become the best pilot in Red Squadron.
Yeah, given how many civilian pilots have crashed flying ex-military aircraft in the real world I'm going to have to call Mary Sue on Luke's magic flying ability. He doesn't just manage to get the x-wing out and back without crashing, he out-dogfights trained Imperial pilots, pulls off a maneuver his veteran wingman considers too dangerous (and convinces his wingmen to follow him), gets command of the attack run and the key torpedo shot based entirely on family name recognition, evades Vader longer than anyone else, and nails an "impossible" torpedo shot (that even his veteran squadron leader couldn't make) with his targeting computer off because of space magic. It's pure Mary Sue-ism that Luke does these things instead of, say, Wedge. But nobody cares, because Luke is a beloved character in a good movie instead of a new character in a series a lot of people dislike.
Peregrine wrote: Yeah, given how many civilian pilots have crashed flying ex-military aircraft in the real world I'm going to have to call Mary Sue on Luke's magic flying ability. He doesn't just manage to get the x-wing out and back without crashing, he out-dogfights trained Imperial pilots, pulls off a maneuver his veteran wingman considers too dangerous (and convinces his wingmen to follow him), gets command of the attack run and the key torpedo shot based entirely on family name recognition, evades Vader longer than anyone else, and nails an "impossible" torpedo shot (that even his veteran squadron leader couldn't make) with his targeting computer off because of space magic. It's pure Mary Sue-ism that Luke does these things instead of, say, Wedge. But nobody cares, because Luke is a beloved character in a good movie instead of a new character in a series a lot of people dislike.
Nobody cares because it's not constantly rubbed in your face that Luke is good at everything in every way and needs no help from others except to teach him/herself that he/she doesn't actually need anyone else.
Luke's journey is one of growth through failure, that he happens to be good at flying doesn't make him a Mary Sue because it's only one facet of his character.
I find Rey an unlikeable hero because of a distinct lack of flaws and character struggles. She's the sort of hero that makes me barrack for the bad guys.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Nobody cares because it's not constantly rubbed in your face that Luke is good at everything in every way and needs no help from others except to teach him/herself that he/she doesn't actually need anyone else.
Yep, clearly the character sent to beg Luke for help, who admits that she desperately needs him and only leaves because she finally accepts that she has failed, needs no help from others and is good at everything already.
Peregrine wrote: Yeah, given how many civilian pilots have crashed flying ex-military aircraft in the real world I'm going to have to call Mary Sue on Luke's magic flying ability. He doesn't just manage to get the x-wing out and back without crashing, he out-dogfights trained Imperial pilots, pulls off a maneuver his veteran wingman considers too dangerous (and convinces his wingmen to follow him), gets command of the attack run and the key torpedo shot based entirely on family name recognition, evades Vader longer than anyone else, and nails an "impossible" torpedo shot (that even his veteran squadron leader couldn't make) with his targeting computer off because of space magic. It's pure Mary Sue-ism that Luke does these things instead of, say, Wedge. But nobody cares, because Luke is a beloved character in a good movie instead of a new character in a series a lot of people dislike.
Luke is not a very good X-wing pilot. He almost crashes into the Death Star and can't shake a Tie. They also do not let him take the first crack at it, as Red Leader does. Red Leader also lasts as long as or longer than Luke.
However, I have not watched it in a long time.... but Luke is not the best pilot in Red Squadron. There are plenty of other better pilots. However, they do not have the Force.
Except when she screws up and lets the monsters out (remember that pointless and stupid scene?), goes off alone and gets captured, has to beg Luke to come back and help her because she can't do it herself, etc. Even our first impression of Rey is weakness, having to scavenge for junk just to avoid starving to death and take whatever pitiful amount of food is offered in return.
TBH the problem with Rey is less that she never fails and more that TFA has awful pacing problems and never stops to allow any of its plot/character ideas to develop. Rey fails, but you probably forgot about it because the movie rushes straight to the next CGI spectacle (probably involving her succeeding, because success makes a good spectacle).
Yeah but if she hadn't let the monsters out they wouldn't have killed and eaten the gangsters that were going to kill them and Han.
She manages to turn the interrogation mentally back on Kylo and learns to Jedi Mind Trick soldiers at the same time as well... Which goes wonderfully with what you said, she was captured for all of five minutes, makes Kylo look incompetent and easily free's herself.
Luke gets beaten up by Tusken Raiders and barflies and has to be rescued twice by Obi-Wan. Rey however beats up several goons and a supposedly trained soldier as well.
Luke needs Han to fly them off planet (although he does claim he could do it himself if he had a ship). Rey however flies herself off planet.
Luke needs a demonstration of the Mind Trick and training to deal with a training remote. Rey however jumps straight to mind tricking and light sabering off the bat.
Luke wasn’t the best pilot in the squadron, although he did have the force (and it’s my opinion but I think obi wan was helping out in that regard too). Rey however was straight to telling Han ways to improve the Falcon if I recall correctly.
Long story short, Luke needed help to get from being the naive farm boy getting beaten up to the Jedi Knight slaughtering his way through heavily armed gangsters. Rey did it all herself and was a lot more uninteresting for it.
Future War Cultist wrote: Rey however was straight to telling Han ways to improve the Falcon if I recall correctly.
Not exactly. Rey tells Han that someone has installed a system on the Falcon which was done after Han lost it. Han and Rey both have the same thought about the installed system and deduce that it is the cause of the issues, once the system is revealed to have been installed.
Also, Han has never been shown as particularly skilled when it comes to knowing what is wrong with the Falcon in the films. The Falcon is an extremely temperamental ship, bodged together out of countless parts over countless years.
Pretty much the whole of ESB was Han trying and failing to fix the Falcon's hyperdrive and the only reason he knew what was wrong was because C3PO could understand the language the hyperdrive computer was programmed in.
Luke's performance at Yavin is acceptable because a foundation for it has been built up over the course of the film. When we meet Luke, we know he dreams of going to the academy. We learn that his father was one of the best pilots ever. We hear him boast to Han that he would fly a starship to Alderaan. We see Obi-Wan teach him how seemingly impossible things are possible through the Force. We see him shoot down TIE fighters in the Falcon. We see him show hope in the briefing, citing his exploits tooling around in his Skyhopper back home. We hear Vader explain, while trying to get a lock on him, that he is strong in the Force. And of course we hear Ob-Wan's disembodied voice telling Luke to use the Force.
By contrast, we meet Rey and the moment she needs to fight she is able to simultaneously defeat several attackers who are larger than her. The moment she needs to pilot a starship she pulls off amazing, risky stunts. The moment she needs to use the Force, she not only can but can overpower a trained Force user.
Now none of this is necessarily wrong, in terms of narrative structure. When you show someone being a badass when there is no reason for them to be a badass, you are saying to the audience - there is something very important about this character that you don't know about yet and the reveal will be a big deal. Maybe that reveal is coming in Episode IX. But it was a severe mistake to carry on, and in some ways even expand on how powerful she is, without delivering on the promise of explanation implied in the format of the characterization.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Yeah but if she hadn't let the monsters out they wouldn't have killed and eaten the gangsters that were going to kill them and Han.
She manages to turn the interrogation mentally back on Kylo and learns to Jedi Mind Trick soldiers at the same time as well... Which goes wonderfully with what you said, she was captured for all of five minutes, makes Kylo look incompetent and easily free's herself.
The creatures were also going to eat Finn.
To quote Madame de Pompadour "A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction. Oh, Doctor, my lonely Doctor..."
Kylo looks incompetent because he is incompetent in TFA. He doesn't start to really control anything until he kills his Father.
By contrast, we meet Rey and the moment she needs to fight she is able to simultaneously defeat several attackers who are larger than her. The moment she needs to pilot a starship she pulls off amazing, risky stunts. The moment she needs to use the Force, she not only can but can overpower a trained Force user.
I would imagine any woman on Jakku incapable of defeating several attackers are wearing gold bikinis and chained to chairs.
This may be a bit off the wall, but maybe The Force is fed up with idiots like Luke, Vader and Obi Wan fething everything up thanks to the principle of hereditary power and established structures, and has tapped Rey with a massive amount of Force power to enable her to break the mould of galactic policy which resulted only in decades of stagnation, poverty, and war.
In this scenario the almost total destruction of the Rebellion and almost total triumph of the New Order is an essential precursor to the creation of a new system of the world in which the downtrodden will rise up, overthrow the elite nobles and dictatorial government, and establish a golden age.
Kilkrazy wrote: This may be a bit off the wall, but maybe The Force is fed up with idiots like Luke, Vader and Obi Wan fething everything up thanks to the principle of hereditary power and established structures, and has tapped Rey with a massive amount of Force power to enable her to break the mould of galactic policy which resulted only in decades of stagnation, poverty, and war.
In this scenario the almost total destruction of the Rebellion and almost total triumph of the New Order is an essential precursor to the creation of a new system of the world in which the downtrodden will rise up, overthrow the elite nobles and dictatorial government, and establish a golden age.
I don't agree that the Force is a being capable of willing anything. But assuming it is, nothing that Rey has done so far actually serves the purpose you describe.
Crimson Devil wrote: I would imagine any woman on Jakku incapable of defeating several attackers are wearing gold bikinis and chained to chairs.
I get the joke but this is pretty clearly not the case. While cleaning up her salvage, Rey stares at an older woman working near her. Nima Oupost is not too dangerous for a granny to eke out a living there.
Kilkrazy wrote: This may be a bit off the wall, but maybe The Force is fed up with idiots like Luke, Vader and Obi Wan fething everything up thanks to the principle of hereditary power and established structures, and has tapped Rey with a massive amount of Force power to enable her to break the mould of galactic policy which resulted only in decades of stagnation, poverty, and war.
In this scenario the almost total destruction of the Rebellion and almost total triumph of the New Order is an essential precursor to the creation of a new system of the world in which the downtrodden will rise up, overthrow the elite nobles and dictatorial government, and establish a golden age.
Oh no! Now we are going to have to start discussing the possible sentience of the Force!
Crimson Devil wrote: I would imagine any woman on Jakku incapable of defeating several attackers are wearing gold bikinis and chained to chairs.
I get the joke but this is pretty clearly not the case. While cleaning up her salvage, Rey stares at an older woman working near her. Nima Oupost is not too dangerous for a granny to eke out a living there.
We don't know the older woman's history. Maybe the out post is safe, maybe she was a slave, maybe she's dangerous, maybe all three.
Oh no! Now we are going ot have to sstart discussing the possibel sentience of the Force!
I mean, it takes GREAT pleasure in guiding people toward horrible deaths and disfigurements. Yoda seems to be the only one wise enough to realize that the only time the Force gives you advice is to try and get you killed and warns anyone he can to completely ignore anything it says.
Crimson Devil wrote: I would imagine any woman on Jakku incapable of defeating several attackers are wearing gold bikinis and chained to chairs.
I get the joke but this is pretty clearly not the case. While cleaning up her salvage, Rey stares at an older woman working near her. Nima Oupost is not too dangerous for a granny to eke out a living there.
We don't know the older woman's history. Maybe the out post is safe, maybe she was a slave, maybe she's dangerous, maybe all three.
By the same token, we don't have enough info about Nima Outpost or Jakku to conclude that women living there would normally be capable of defeating multiple attackers.
Maybe she can do all of these things because a woman has to work harder to get the same level of respect.
The real reason Rey is as capable as she is escalation. Luke didn't have to out preform the Avengers. He had more time to develop before his big moment. Rey had to jump in to the action quicker to keep the audience's attention.
Women have to work harder? The exact opposite holds in this case. Rey does not need to work at all. She is at minimum competent at every turn, at everything she tries, regardless of any (hypothetical) past experience.
Again, this is fine if you are telling your story in a way where you present the character as improbably powerful to set up a major plot point that explains why this is the case. The structure of TFA strongly implies Episode VIII will provide that reveal. Indeed, this appears to be the very reason Rian Johnson refused to address it: SUBVERSION !
You used a winking emoticon last time, too, but then defended the point as a serious one.
It doesn't matter whether JJ would have followed through, and I agree his track record is very spotty on that count, because the problem is with Rian's film, rather than JJ's.
People complained about Rey being OP when TFA came out. I disagreed then and now. TFA was the first episode of a new trilogy. It's purpose was to introduce characters. JJ decided to characterize Rey by what she could do rather than why she could do it. This is perfectly valid for the first installment of a series. (I'd personally prefer this kind of thing be limited to weekly episodes of a TV show but I get why people like it in films, too.) The job of a second installment in a trilogy is to follow up on the first one. Rian did not follow up; rather, he lashed out at TFA. Rather than point the way to Episode IX, TLJ points backward as an (IMO unjust) indictment of TFA and, by proxy, the OT. That's why I suspect Rian Johnson has contempt for Star Wars.
I didn't get that from TLJ at all. I felt it was more taking the blinders off and really looking at the setting for the first time. There are a lot of dark things going on in the Star Wars galaxy that have nothing to do with FO or Sith, that just get glossed over by laser swords and spectacle.
But they also just get glossed over in TLJ. As discussed ITT, our heroes choose horses over children and really they only help the horses at all to cause a distraction. Del Toro's self-indulgent speech to Finn has no moral impact; it still ends up being a story about good versus evil. Just turns out that Benito was a bad guy.
Just a point about the child slaves: Anakin and his mom were fitted with explosive collars. Who's to say the kids weren't fitted with improved, implanted ones. Of course they might have been simply child laborers too. It's not like SW has a lot of regulation or OSHA would be shutting the galaxy down until safety rails were installed.
Not slave collars but explosive transmitter chips.. Which have only been shown in the first film and never again now that I think about it, may have been mentioned in the Darth Vader series though. Though at the same time they didn't really help the animals much either in the long run.
..Of course if they are fitted with such things, then if they try and Rebel they'll die off easily anyways when attempting to revolt. Thus killing any chance of "hope". But given that this plot point isn't mentioned once either in novelization or the movie itself, it's likely that it isn't there.
Given that the whole explosive transmitters was basically just to fix a meh plot point on why Qui-Gon wouldn't just take both of them on his ship after acquiring a means of leaving the planet.
Skaorn wrote: Just a point about the child slaves: Anakin and his mom were fitted with explosive collars. Who's to say the kids weren't fitted with improved, implanted ones. Of course they might have been simply child laborers too. It's not like SW has a lot of regulation or OSHA would be shutting the galaxy down until safety rails were installed.
Maybe - maybe not - did either Rose or Finn seem remotely interested in the plight of the children compared to the space horses (which much better toys than slave children).
For all this nonsense about the director subverting anything he sells out to show marketable toys throughout as quick or quicker than ever.
The prequel films do a good job of showing that the Jedi care little for anyone but themselves and certainly not about slavery - be that children or sentient robots. Again a better director actually trying to be "oooh edgy and subversive as is claimed" might have tried to look at some things like this but beyond this shambles of a team.
The movie would have been vastly more entertaining and subversive if they'd started freeing the child slaves and while running away the kids started randomly exploding until our dynamic duo figured out they were fitted with explosive chips.
The "now it's worth it" line when setting the space horses free was awful, as if the space horses wouldn't just get rounded up or flat out exterminated after that little romp through casino town.
They might have hurt the wallets of some of the folk in casino town but not in a way that actually helped anyone else.
An actual subverting film could have done much more rather than have the pathetic - oh look both the FO and the Rebels/Republic buy guns from the same people - OHH god how shocking.
If they had to do Casino world, they could have had the supposed friends and supporters of the Alliance / Rebels being winded and dined by the of as part of the takeover process.
Maybe had the sales of FO Stormtrooper and ships toys everywhere with a TV show highlighting the heroes of the order. Maybe have some sweat shops making the toys.
Have some of the slave children say "our parents were salves under the first republic, under the empire and then again under the new one - why would you or the FO be any different?"
But the director was all flash (and poor flash at that) and no substance.
Manchu wrote: Luke's performance at Yavin is acceptable because a foundation for it has been built up over the course of the film. When we meet Luke, we know he dreams of going to the academy. We learn that his father was one of the best pilots ever. We hear him boast to Han that he would fly a starship to Alderaan. We see Obi-Wan teach him how seemingly impossible things are possible through the Force. We see him shoot down TIE fighters in the Falcon. We see him show hope in the briefing, citing his exploits tooling around in his Skyhopper back home. We hear Vader explain, while trying to get a lock on him, that he is strong in the Force. And of course we hear Ob-Wan's disembodied voice telling Luke to use the Force.
By contrast, we meet Rey and the moment she needs to fight she is able to simultaneously defeat several attackers who are larger than her. The moment she needs to pilot a starship she pulls off amazing, risky stunts. The moment she needs to use the Force, she not only can but can overpower a trained Force user.
I completely disagree.
Luke’s piloting skills are not earned at all. We are never shown any reason why he should be a good pilot, he just continuously tells us that he is one. It’s essentially bad writing. We never see his sky hopper. We’re never even given a reason why a farm boy would even have one. It feels far more like a line added to give the flimsiest of reasons why Luke should be trusted to take part in the climax of the movie.
In contrast, we see Rey’s day to day existence and how hard it is. We can imagine her daily struggle to survive. It’s impressive, but not unrealistic when we see her fight off her attackers, because we can imagine she’s had to do that many times before. I’ll give you that there is no reason given as to why Rey is an ace pilot. Would it have been so much better if she’d turned to Finn and told him she was a great pilot because her father was?
I basically think that every Star Wars film I’ve seen has been pretty poorly written in places. They’re pretty much all mediocre but fun films to some degree. It does feel though that the original trilogy gets a free pass and gets to gloss over its inadequacies, while the sequel trilogy gets pilloried for exactly the same sins.
If only the technology at the time had allowed them to show Luke in the sky hopper. Because yeah, as it stands, it was all tell and no show. That I have to concede. But at least Luke had other shortcomings like I mentioned before. I will soften my stance on Rey beating up those goons though. Someone with her background would need to be pretty handy. But going straight to mind tricking? Nah...
Kilkrazy wrote: When Rose confesses her love to Finn, it adds an extra dimension to the developing Finn/Rey/Poe/Rey/Ren love quadrilateral.
Also I like the idea that a lowly maintenance technician can be a hero and play an important part without having to be the secret scion of a super-powered prince.
Rose was a bit of a non-entity as a character, but I did like the idea behind her; that in the Star Wars universe any random person can be a hero if they step up at the right time.
Lance845 wrote: I REALLY disagree with this. We see him develop a lot. Snoke mocks his helmet wearing wanna be ass and he realizes hes just been living in vader shadow and snokes shadow and trying to fit into a mold that came before. The moment he smashed that helmet to pieces was the moment he started to be his own person. When he turned on the light saber and killed snoke his chains were broken and the FO was his to grab and lead as he saw fit, fitting nobodys desires but his own.
He wanted Rey to abandon the Jedi like he abandoned snoke and have them both run off into the first order sunset. But it was HIM that wanted it. I think the TLJ saw a bunch of growth for kylos character.
The one part of the recent movies I unreservedly like is Ren's arc. He goes from being a Darth Vader fanboy to, at least by Sith standards, exceeding him.
Future War Cultist wrote: If only the technology at the time had allowed them to show Luke in the sky hopper. Because yeah, as it stands, it was all tell and no show. That I have to concede. But at least Luke had other shortcomings like I mentioned before. I will soften my stance on Rey beating up those goons though. Someone with her background would need to be pretty handy. But going straight to mind tricking? Nah...
Well the technology was developed enough to show a space battle, which is why I suspect the whole sky hopper thing is just a weak justification for something that makes no sense. I mean why would Leia trust Luke and Han when their rescue of her was fair incompetent. It was Leia who basically took change in the prison area because the two idiot men trying to rescue her were out of their depth. Of course you could do that in movies in those days, without pathetic man babies crying about SJWs trying to emasculate them
Yeah, it's as bad as learning force pull without training just because you're about to become snow monster dinner otherwise. Definitely shouldn't have been in the movie.
Yeah, it's as bad as learning force pull without training just because you're about to become snow monster dinner otherwise. Definitely shouldn't have been in the movie.
But he did have training, with Obi-Wan.
And drop the smart ass sarcasm as well. You’re not impressing anyone.
On how to use a sword with his eyes closed. Nowhere do we see him trained in force pull, or in using the force to manipulate objects in general instead of just as an extra sense.
And drop the smart ass sarcasm as well. You’re not impressing anyone.
Peregrine wrote: On how to use a sword with his eyes closed. Nowhere do we see him trained in force pull, or in using the force to manipulate objects in general instead of just as an extra sense.
And he got stung in the butt, too. He had to be coached through it.
Had they scripted Rey doing the same, she'd have slashed them all out of the air in one swipe while using the force to park the Falcon up Boba Fett's butthole.
Does Luke have a huge montage and a step-by-step training process? Nope. Is it rather short? Yes. But at least he has some kind of training and some trial and error. Something showed you how he went from a farm boy to a fairly capable guy. It wasn't huge, but it was there.
Rey, on the other hand, just 'has those abilities'. And I was honestly sad to see they didn't play the 'her childhood is a lie and she was mindwiped with the Force' sort of like Revan was. It would have explained a lot. She didn't have to have important parents, she could have had training and it would have all been clear. Even would make sense why Kylo Ren and Snoke were so adamant about finding her, and her 'power level' would have been a perfect justification to hide her and sort of sever her connection to the Force.
By all standards of reason, Rey feels less like a Star Wars movie character, and more like a fanfiction character written by a young amatuer. She has no depth. She's just 'good', and I'm sorry- disagree if you like, but I prefer my heroes to read less like a list of powers and more like someone overcoming challenges and working to become skilled. Otherwise, it's like trying to make Diomedes the star of the Iliad- an overpowered, undefeatable badass with no explicable reason to be as badass as he is. And that's what Rey is.
Luke got his ass kicked. He made bonehead mistakes. He had flaws and was impatient and stubborn and reckless- he was an entirely believable character in an otherwise unbelievable universe. Rey, however, is almost the opposite- years have passed and the Star Wars Universe, as fantastic as it is, feels more familiar to the audience... and Rey simply seems to be the unbelievable part.
And comically enough, the theme of this is 'anyone can be a hero, it doesn't matter where you come from' - well, sure... as long as you have super-duper force powers. Otherwise you're the idiot smashing into your friend in the salt flats to 'save' him from doing what needed to be done to stop the massive ordnance from frying the last remnants of the resistance.
I don't want to say I 'hate' these movies, but I'll openly say they are substandard in the writing department. The thing that I DO hate is there are two very vocal groups:
1- Everyone that hates this movie just hates women and minorities
2- These movies are blatant SJW propaganda
While there may be a little nugget of truth in each argument, it's really not that extreme. Trust me, I'm pretty sure Disney isn't in the business of making propaganda-
Oh. Nevermind.
Well, either way, it's not as bad as everyone is making it out to be. But just like with the Marvel Movies, franchise fatigue will eventually set in and hopefully Star Wars will either improve or we'll just remember this as a 'dark time'.
I don't want to say I 'hate' these movies, but I'll openly say they are substandard in the writing department. The thing that I DO hate is there are two very vocal groups:
1- Everyone that hates this movie just hates women and minorities
2- These movies are blatant SJW propaganda
While there may be a little nugget of truth in each argument, it's really not that extreme.
Good to know it's not just me that leans towards "a plague on both your houses" when that argument starts up. One side doesn't realise you can make a good argument in a bad way, and the other is blind to the irony of complaing about easily offended SJW's while being hyper-sensitive to any perceived disparagement of straight white guys.
Good to know it's not just me that leans towards "a plague on both your houses" when that argument starts up. One side doesn't realise you can make a good argument in a bad way, and the other is blind to the irony of complaing about easily offended SJW's while being hyper-sensitive to any perceived disparagement of straight white guys.
You're not, and I'm actually 'Anti-SJW' by a reasonable standard. I still find it to be absurd with some of this. I don't take any issue at all with a diverse cast of heroes, and I'd like to see an equally diverse cast of villains (one point that someone DID make was that we seem to be eager to make the heroes diverse and shirk away from doing that with villains).
For one side of the argument I'd like to say that it does the cause no favors to make a female lead if she's going to be a super-powered blank slate of a character with no personality. And it does no favors to showcase 'diversity' if the entertainment is shallow and stupid. It tends to give their opponents the idea that 'diverse characters makes a garbage movie'. Which isn't the case, if anything there are some awesome female and POC characters in various media that didn't require this kind of parading about, because they delivered a good story with good characters. And shoving someone with boobs or brown skin into something doesn't make it 'good' or immune to criticism- in fact, insinuating so seems less like you're a good person and more like you're treating these things like a handicap.
For the other side of the argument, I'd say that it probably gets tiresome being accused of some kind of bigoty so it might be best to focus on the actual quality of the work and avoid accusing them of an 'SJW agenda'. There is no SJW agenda, most of the time. It's usually just simple rhetoric to load into a product so that when people criticize it, they can be written off as some kind of bigot. By acting like it's the Polygender Otherkin Tumblr Illuminati in Hollywood trying to brainwash kids into interracial butt-sex, you lose credibility. Focus criticism on the product, and hold it to the same exact standards you hold any other. Fair is fair. As a wise person once told me, if you are fair and equal in your criticism and opinions, then you force your adversaries to show they simply hate fairness and equality.
Diversity is not a bad thing in fiction. I'm no fan of changing established characters around for diversity, but I 100% want people to create new and diverse characters.
Luke had telekinesis training on Dagobah. If he can lift an X-wing a few feet while its stuck in a bog he can call his lightsaber to his hand while its sitting in snow.
Mrs. Esterhouse wrote: Luke had telekinesis training on Dagobah. If he can lift an X-wing a few feet while its stuck in a bog he can call his lightsaber to his hand while its sitting in snow.
On how to use a sword with his eyes closed. Nowhere do we see him trained in force pull, or in using the force to manipulate objects in general instead of just as an extra sense.
Agreed.
Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Spoiler:
Peregrine wrote: On how to use a sword with his eyes closed. Nowhere do we see him trained in force pull, or in using the force to manipulate objects in general instead of just as an extra sense.
And he got stung in the butt, too. He had to be coached through it.
Had they scripted Rey doing the same, she'd have slashed them all out of the air in one swipe while using the force to park the Falcon up Boba Fett's butthole.
Does Luke have a huge montage and a step-by-step training process? Nope. Is it rather short? Yes. But at least he has some kind of training and some trial and error. Something showed you how he went from a farm boy to a fairly capable guy. It wasn't huge, but it was there.
Rey, on the other hand, just 'has those abilities'. And I was honestly sad to see they didn't play the 'her childhood is a lie and she was mindwiped with the Force' sort of like Revan was. It would have explained a lot. She didn't have to have important parents, she could have had training and it would have all been clear. Even would make sense why Kylo Ren and Snoke were so adamant about finding her, and her 'power level' would have been a perfect justification to hide her and sort of sever her connection to the Force.
By all standards of reason, Rey feels less like a Star Wars movie character, and more like a fanfiction character written by a young amatuer. She has no depth. She's just 'good', and I'm sorry- disagree if you like, but I prefer my heroes to read less like a list of powers and more like someone overcoming challenges and working to become skilled. Otherwise, it's like trying to make Diomedes the star of the Iliad- an overpowered, undefeatable badass with no explicable reason to be as badass as he is. And that's what Rey is.
Luke got his ass kicked. He made bonehead mistakes. He had flaws and was impatient and stubborn and reckless- he was an entirely believable character in an otherwise unbelievable universe. Rey, however, is almost the opposite- years have passed and the Star Wars Universe, as fantastic as it is, feels more familiar to the audience... and Rey simply seems to be the unbelievable part.
And comically enough, the theme of this is 'anyone can be a hero, it doesn't matter where you come from' - well, sure... as long as you have super-duper force powers. Otherwise you're the idiot smashing into your friend in the salt flats to 'save' him from doing what needed to be done to stop the massive ordnance from frying the last remnants of the resistance.
I don't want to say I 'hate' these movies, but I'll openly say they are substandard in the writing department. The thing that I DO hate is there are two very vocal groups:
1- Everyone that hates this movie just hates women and minorities
2- These movies are blatant SJW propaganda
While there may be a little nugget of truth in each argument, it's really not that extreme. Trust me, I'm pretty sure Disney isn't in the business of making propaganda-
Oh. Nevermind.
Well, either way, it's not as bad as everyone is making it out to be. But just like with the Marvel Movies, franchise fatigue will eventually set in and hopefully Star Wars will either improve or we'll just remember this as a 'dark time'.
Except that there is a massive power gap between Luke and Rey. In fact, there is a massive power gap between Rey/Kylo and everyone else we have ever seen on film. It's flat out stated in the movies. I said this before, Rey and Kylos power level is like Starkiller from Force Unleashed. Their raw power is so great that given direction it pretty much takes care of most of the work for them. It's not a matter of them ding anything with any kind of finesse. Without training they couldn't build a wall out of a bunch of rocks. But with their raw power they might just pull a star destroyer out of the sky and smash it into a city.
Except that there is a massive power gap between Luke and Rey. In fact, there is a massive power gap between Rey/Kylo and everyone else we have ever seen on film. It's flat out stated in the movies. I said this before, Rey and Kylos power level is like Starkiller from Force Unleashed. Their raw power is so great that given direction it pretty much takes care of most of the work for them. It's not a matter of them ding anything with any kind of finesse. Without training they couldn't build a wall out of a bunch of rocks. But with their raw power they might just pull a star destroyer out of the sky and smash it into a city.
Let me ask you- are you honestly confusing 'powerful' and 'good story'? Because it is certainly seeming like that's the case. You can talk about 'power level' all you want, all day long. But at no point is ''awssum powurr" good storytelling or a coherent plot or even the foundations of a good character. It's not 'storytelling', it's not a character, it's a list of abilities. That 'awssum powurr" is worth nothing without a story- otherwise it's amatuer.
That 'massive power gap' is what bothers people. There's no explanation for it, and it's absurd. Suddently two nobodies with scant training show up and are 'Force Gods'? No, this is one more example of someone confusing 'awssum powurr' with 'good character'. It's Dragonball heroics.
Future War Cultist wrote: Maybe the Death Star took a while to get to Yavin, and he got the chance to take the x wing out for a spin to get a feel for the controls.
Or they used flash training methods, like the Republic used for their clones and Rey used? to learn Wookiee and Droid.
Is Rey the protagonist of TFA? How about TLJ? In both cases, it seems like she should be. But she is more of a tantalizing puzzle than a fully-realized character in the former. And in TLJ she seems like a springboard for backfilling Luke and Ben's relationship, rather than driving her own story. Rey is likable thanks to Daisy Ridley's performance but the scripts both really let the character down. I can forgive TFA because after all it was the set up episode. There is no excuse for TLJ's misuse of this character, however; nor of its egregious misuse of Poe and Finn.
Manchu wrote: Is Rey the protagonist of TFA? How about TLJ? In both cases, it seems like she should be. But she is more of a tantalizing puzzle than a fully-realized character in the former. And in TLJ she seems like a springboard for backfilling Luke and Ben's relationship, rather than driving her own story. Rey is likable thanks to Daisy Ridley's performance but the scripts both really let the character down. I can forgive TFA because after all it was the set up episode. There is no excuse for TLJ's misuse of this character, however; nor of its egregious misuse of Poe and Finn.
Yeah TFA was a good setup, and then TLJ failed to really offer much meaningful character development for it's characters. I'm not even sure what there is left to look forward to in the next movie. Snoke died, in a rather anticlimatic and lame way. Ben still kind of sucks as a villain. I'm not even sure why they brought Phasma back just to kill her in such a lame fashion, it's just a waste of screen time. I have no idea how JJ is going to cobble together a satisfactory conclusion to the trilogy, can't even say I believe he can.
And the part where rose slams finns speeder and then kisses him was some cheese. That got some real eye rolls and I don't know...just shock at the absurdity of what was unfolding on screen. if JJ is smart he'll kill that character off screen in the time lapse between the two films.
I am not sure what a conclusion to this trilogy would be at this point, much less a satisfactory one. The job of the middle installment is to escalate the action and nail down the conflicts to be resolved in the final installment and TLJ flat out fails at that.
Manchu wrote: I am not sure what a conclusion to this trilogy would be at this point, much less a satisfactory one. The job of the middle installment is to escalate the action and nail down the conflicts to be resolved in the final installment and TLJ flat out fails at that.
Conclusion to Star Wars? This now belongs to a company that made 'Aladdin 3'. They'll ride this thing until the movies are straight to Blu-Ray or Streaming.
Except that there is a massive power gap between Luke and Rey. In fact, there is a massive power gap between Rey/Kylo and everyone else we have ever seen on film. It's flat out stated in the movies. I said this before, Rey and Kylos power level is like Starkiller from Force Unleashed. Their raw power is so great that given direction it pretty much takes care of most of the work for them. It's not a matter of them ding anything with any kind of finesse. Without training they couldn't build a wall out of a bunch of rocks. But with their raw power they might just pull a star destroyer out of the sky and smash it into a city.
Let me ask you- are you honestly confusing 'powerful' and 'good story'? Because it is certainly seeming like that's the case. You can talk about 'power level' all you want, all day long. But at no point is ''awssum powurr" good storytelling or a coherent plot or even the foundations of a good character. It's not 'storytelling', it's not a character, it's a list of abilities. That 'awssum powurr" is worth nothing without a story- otherwise it's amatuer.
That 'massive power gap' is what bothers people. There's no explanation for it, and it's absurd. Suddently two nobodies with scant training show up and are 'Force Gods'? No, this is one more example of someone confusing 'awssum powurr' with 'good character'. It's Dragonball heroics.
I never said her power is what made her a good character. I said her power is what explains why she can do the things she does in the same way that Kylo could do things we have never seen anyone else do as well.
You are free to dislike the character. You are free to dislike the story. But if your reason for disliking both is that Rey does things that Luke couldn't when there are lines in the movie that flat out tell you she and Kylo are a tier above then thats just you ignoring an entire plot point for the character for the sake of your dislike. People have argued poor pacing. I can see it. I don't debate it. But Rey being capable? We have seen in stroy elements that support all the reasons she can do the things she does.
Lance845 wrote: I never said her power is what made her a good character. I said her power is what explains why she can do the things she does in the same way that Kylo could do things we have never seen anyone else do as well.
Sure, she can do things Luke can't do (other than generate facial expressions). For NO REASON. It's like suddenly, in the Lord of the Rings saga, a 14 year old super-wizard shows up and starts crushing mountains with a word and just hurls Sauron's Eye into the sun. It. Is. Bad. Writing.
Lance845 wrote: You are free to dislike the character. You are free to dislike the story. But if your reason for disliking both is that Rey does things that Luke couldn't when there are lines in the movie that flat out tell you she and Kylo are a tier above then thats just you ignoring an entire plot point for the character for the sake of your dislike. People have argued poor pacing. I can see it. I don't debate it. But Rey being capable? We have seen in stroy elements that support all the reasons she can do the things she does.
"They have great powurr" is not a 'plot'. Absolutely nothing supports what she does, she just -does it- and we're expected to nod and say, "okay". That's NOT a story, any more than a series of fart noises from a Porg explains Snoke.
Lance845 wrote: I never said her power is what made her a good character. I said her power is what explains why she can do the things she does in the same way that Kylo could do things we have never seen anyone else do as well.
Sure, she can do things Luke can't do (other than generate facial expressions). For NO REASON. It's like suddenly, in the Lord of the Rings saga, a 14 year old super-wizard shows up and starts crushing mountains with a word and just hurls Sauron's Eye into the sun. It. Is. Bad. Writing.
Lance845 wrote: You are free to dislike the character. You are free to dislike the story. But if your reason for disliking both is that Rey does things that Luke couldn't when there are lines in the movie that flat out tell you she and Kylo are a tier above then thats just you ignoring an entire plot point for the character for the sake of your dislike. People have argued poor pacing. I can see it. I don't debate it. But Rey being capable? We have seen in stroy elements that support all the reasons she can do the things she does.
"They have great powurr" is not a 'plot'. Absolutely nothing supports what she does, she just -does it- and we're expected to nod and say, "okay". That's NOT a story, any more than a series of fart noises from a Porg explains Snoke.
So again, Batman is the most intelligent person on the planet despite others having modified intellects as meta humans or other such nonsense "For NO REASON". Why is that ok?
People having a natural talent is just a thing that exists in both the real world and fictional worlds. Both Kylo and Rey have more Raw power then anyone that has been seen to date. Is Kylo equally bad writing? I haven't seen you talk about him yet?
Rey was raised in a place where she needed to know how to fight to survive. Luke wasn't. Rey was technologically inclined because she needed those skills to survive as a scavenger. Rey built a flight simulator and trained on it.
Besides all this, we have seen that as much as the force is just a passive thing that exists as part of the fabric of the SW world it's also something that seems to have at least a sub conscious will. If we are REALLY going to believe that Anakin is a force jesus then the force can bring people about "For NO REASON" with extreme amounts of power to serve a purpose. Right now the galaxy has been trapped in an endless cycle of tipping back and forth between the light and the dark. Kylo and Rey could very well be the answer to cycle. To finally break it. We don't know yet. Their story isn't done. Would you have considered it better writing if somebody decided to do a 5 minute exposition on a prophecy or theory that implied that?
So again, Batman is the most intelligent person on the planet despite others having modified intellects as meta humans or other such nonsense "For NO REASON". Why is that ok?
Because he didn't sit around being a dumbass. He studied the criminal mind, engineering, chemistry, etc. That's kind of a thing, 'learning'.
You obviously don't understand this. And your attachment to this character is making me uncomfortable. Trying to get you to understand is a lost cause, and I'm probably better off talking to someone who understands these concepts.
So again, Batman is the most intelligent person on the planet despite others having modified intellects as meta humans or other such nonsense "For NO REASON". Why is that ok?
Because he didn't sit around being a dumbass. He studied the criminal mind, engineering, chemistry, etc. That's kind of a thing, 'learning'.
You obviously don't understand this. And your attachment to this character is making me uncomfortable. Trying to get you to understand is a lost cause, and I'm probably better off talking to someone who understands these concepts.
You seem to have difficulty understanding the difference between learned skills and base line intelligence. I wasn't saying Batman didn't earn his skills through years (though extremely few years considering the amount of skills he mastered - I.E. see his incredible baseline intellect) I said he was the most INTELLIGENT person on the planet. If this was a DnD character, we are not talking about his knowledge and profession skills. We are talking about his Intelligence attribute. Do you get it yet?
Your singling out of this character is telling. What about Kylo?
Lance845 wrote: Your singling out of this character is telling. What about Kylo?
Here we go. Go ahead, say I 'hate women' or something and throw a tantrum. I get it, you think you're a good person because you like this 'strong female lead' (that's an embarrassment to all all strong female leads in the history of science fiction).
Kylo's also a lousy character, but at least he had training to explain his abilities.
Also Batman isn't the smartest person on the planet. I don't think you know enough about that comic to have a valid opinion to use as an example. Batman is intelligent because he pursued subjects and learned as much about them as possible. 'Intelligence' isn't something you just manifest like a superpower. People who learn things study hard and take the time, idiots are generally just lazy people who don't want to learn. Bruce Wayne didn't 'think real hard with superbrain' and know how to profile criminals. He studied, trained, and learned. That's how 'a hero's journey' works, unless you're writing a lazy Mary Sue in Star Wars.
You STILL don't realize "They has powurz just because!" isn't good storytelling, character-building, etc. It's Dragonball writing- writing that has an overwhelming appeal to children and people who don't think too much about what they're looking at. Flashy, fun to watch, but by no means intelligent or creative in the least bit.
If a Guardsman in 40k suddenly manifested Psyker abilities beyond that of anyone short of the Emperor or Magnus, snagged up a power sword he'd never trained with, and struck down a greater daemon that was throwing around Grey Knights- you'd call B.S. unless there was SOMETHING to explain it. Otherwise, the lore would be stupidly inconsistent.
I actually thought Rey was one of the few good things in TLJ. She is not an especially great female character but compared to the rest she is a flawless creation.
Its still laughable to me that anyone holds the female characters in TLJ as anything good or even "subversive" considering how much better pretty much any other film this year has had - even Geostorm had much better one as the Secret Service agent and that was not a great film, better than TLJ but not great.
Mr Morden wrote: I actually thought Rey was one of the few good things in TLJ. She is not an especially great female character but compared to the rest she is a flawless creation.
Well, they're all turds. She's just the straightest one without chunks of corn or peanuts in it.
Lance845 wrote: Your singling out of this character is telling. What about Kylo?
Here we go. Go ahead, say I 'hate women' or something and throw a tantrum. I get it, you think you're a good person because you like this 'strong female lead' (that's an embarrassment to all all strong female leads in the history of science fiction).
Kylo's also a lousy character, but at least he had training to explain his abilities.
I think you hate a lot of things and I have yet to "throw a tantrum" unlike some others. I like good characters in general. I don't particularly care what gender they are. I also don't go into SW movies expecting particularly great characters. It's never had them.
Training doesn't explain Kylos abilities. Yoda could never stop a blaster bolt in mid air. He's had some 900 years of training.
Also Batman isn't the smartest person on the planet. I don't think you know enough about that comic to have a valid opinion to use as an example. Batman is intelligent because he pursued subjects and learned as much about them as possible. 'Intelligence' isn't something you just manifest like a superpower. People who learn things study hard and take the time, idiots are generally just lazy people who don't want to learn. Bruce Wayne didn't 'think real hard with superbrain' and know how to profile criminals. He studied, trained, and learned. That's how 'a hero's journey' works, unless you're writing a lazy Mary Sue in Star Wars.
Ok. So you actually DON'T understand the difference between learned skills and natural aptitude. Good to know going forward.
You STILL don't realize "They has powurz just because!" isn't good storytelling, character-building, etc. It's Dragonball writing- writing that has an overwhelming appeal to children and people who don't think too much about what they're looking at. Flashy, fun to watch, but by no means intelligent or creative in the least bit.
And yet, it's what starwars has always been. Also, "appeal to children" is something SW is designed to do.
If a Guardsman in 40k suddenly manifested Psyker abilities beyond that of anyone short of the Emperor or Magnus, snagged up a power sword he'd never trained with, and struck down a greater daemon that was throwing around Grey Knights- you'd call B.S. unless there was SOMETHING to explain it. Otherwise, the lore would be stupidly inconsistent.
I hate to break it to you, but 40ks lore is stupidly inconsistent in a great many ways with a lot of super shallow characters who have incredible amounts of power for no good reason.
Mr Morden wrote:I actually thought Rey was one of the few good things in TLJ. She is not an especially great female character but compared to the rest she is a flawless creation.
Its still laughable to me that anyone holds the female characters in TLJ as anything good or even "subversive" considering how much better pretty much any other film this year has had - even Geostorm had much better one as the Secret Service agent and that was not a great film, better than TLJ but not great.
I don't at all understand the "subversive" thing myself. I didn't find anything in either SW film "subversive". It just was what it was. Every character has been more or less as dumb as every character has always been in SW.
Haven't seen Geostorm yet. I plan on redboxing it.
Training doesn't explain Kylos abilities. Yoda could never stop a blaster bolt in mid air. He's had some 900 years of training.
Actually considering how Kylo doesn't display any other abilities besides your basic Jedi set, though he's got a bit of dominating minds, and stunning with telekinetic.. He may have trained exclusively in telekinetic or had a natural talent in those powers which would allow him some extra tricks not many else show.
Really, Kylo's power set is incredibly basic beyond those few extra powers, relying near exclusively on holding people with the force, blocking ranged attacks with his saber and his power, and stabbing people to death. So it's quite possibly he never really trained outward.
Future War Cultist wrote: Maybe the Death Star took a while to get to Yavin, and he got the chance to take the x wing out for a spin to get a feel for the controls.
Or they used flash training methods, like the Republic used for their clones and Rey used? to learn Wookiee and Droid.
Ah, there you go then! Combine that with the natural talent to fly that he’s said to have and that explains it, sort of.
About that jump Luke goes through, from blocking a remote to retrieving a light sabre...it’s entirely conjecture on my part but I think Obi Wan still spoke to him enough to get him through the basics.
Lance845 wrote: I never said her power is what made her a good character. I said her power is what explains why she can do the things she does in the same way that Kylo could do things we have never seen anyone else do as well.
Sure, she can do things Luke can't do (other than generate facial expressions). For NO REASON. It's like suddenly, in the Lord of the Rings saga, a 14 year old super-wizard shows up and starts crushing mountains with a word and just hurls Sauron's Eye into the sun. It. Is. Bad. Writing.
Lance845 wrote: You are free to dislike the character. You are free to dislike the story. But if your reason for disliking both is that Rey does things that Luke couldn't when there are lines in the movie that flat out tell you she and Kylo are a tier above then thats just you ignoring an entire plot point for the character for the sake of your dislike. People have argued poor pacing. I can see it. I don't debate it. But Rey being capable? We have seen in stroy elements that support all the reasons she can do the things she does.
"They have great powurr" is not a 'plot'. Absolutely nothing supports what she does, she just -does it- and we're expected to nod and say, "okay". That's NOT a story, any more than a series of fart noises from a Porg explains Snoke.
So again, Batman is the most intelligent person on the planet despite others having modified intellects as meta humans or other such nonsense "For NO REASON". Why is that ok?
People having a natural talent is just a thing that exists in both the real world and fictional worlds. Both Kylo and Rey have more Raw power then anyone that has been seen to date. Is Kylo equally bad writing? I haven't seen you talk about him yet?
Rey was raised in a place where she needed to know how to fight to survive. Luke wasn't. Rey was technologically inclined because she needed those skills to survive as a scavenger. Rey built a flight simulator and trained on it.
Besides all this, we have seen that as much as the force is just a passive thing that exists as part of the fabric of the SW world it's also something that seems to have at least a sub conscious will. If we are REALLY going to believe that Anakin is a force jesus then the force can bring people about "For NO REASON" with extreme amounts of power to serve a purpose. Right now the galaxy has been trapped in an endless cycle of tipping back and forth between the light and the dark. Kylo and Rey could very well be the answer to cycle. To finally break it. We don't know yet. Their story isn't done. Would you have considered it better writing if somebody decided to do a 5 minute exposition on a prophecy or theory that implied that?
Kylo gets the bad guy bonus, all bad guys are more powerful than the good guys, that's what makes their ultimate defeat feel rewarding and it's the basis for all epics & sagas. There's no epic tales of a god smiting a worm. When the worm is stronger than gods just because, and for no stated reason, that makes the worm a marry sue, it's bad story telling and makes an unbelievable and unrelatable character.
Kylo has a backstory that explains his level of power, rey does not, even anikin needed training, he had a good 10 years in jedi school. At this point in the movies, kylo needs a training montage just to catch up to ray.
how does she know what modifications have been done and linage of the falcon, yet not know it's name? If you think batman is a sue because of his intelligence, then you must concede that rey is as well. she just builds a flight simulator and knows exactly where a component is and how to bypass it? That's not technically inclined, that's batman levels of smarts. And batman is not that smart, most of his toys are stolen R&D from his company with a bat symbol painted on it. He trained his whole life in combat styles, rey who spent most of her time scrapping wouldn't have had that time, nor training. good with tech, sure, good at everything? that's sue's territory.
we don't need a 5 minute exposition on the force, but all good stories have forshadowing of things to come, TLJ doesn't. after 2 movies we should be able to deduce some of the plot points in the 3rd movie, all good stories do this, TLJ doesn't.
Training doesn't explain Kylos abilities. Yoda could never stop a blaster bolt in mid air. He's had some 900 years of training.
He may have trained exclusively in telekinetic or had a natural talent in those powers which would allow him some extra tricks not many else show.
Really, Kylo's power set is incredibly basic beyond those few extra powers, relying near exclusively on holding people with the force, blocking ranged attacks with his saber and his power, and stabbing people to death. So it's quite possibly he never really trained outward.
Right. That was my argument. Kylo has a massive natural talent. Kylo has some training so his raw power is more directed then Rey. If Rey were to turn her power towards stopping that bolt I wouldn't be surprised if it also smashed a bunch of gak around her in the process. A lot like how Kylo could have pulled a single object to knock out Luke but instead he tore down an entire (small) building,
Training alone doesn't account for what we see from Kylo. And training alone isn't the answer to what we see from Rey.
Lance845 wrote: I never said her power is what made her a good character. I said her power is what explains why she can do the things she does in the same way that Kylo could do things we have never seen anyone else do as well.
Sure, she can do things Luke can't do (other than generate facial expressions). For NO REASON. It's like suddenly, in the Lord of the Rings saga, a 14 year old super-wizard shows up and starts crushing mountains with a word and just hurls Sauron's Eye into the sun. It. Is. Bad. Writing.
Lance845 wrote: You are free to dislike the character. You are free to dislike the story. But if your reason for disliking both is that Rey does things that Luke couldn't when there are lines in the movie that flat out tell you she and Kylo are a tier above then thats just you ignoring an entire plot point for the character for the sake of your dislike. People have argued poor pacing. I can see it. I don't debate it. But Rey being capable? We have seen in stroy elements that support all the reasons she can do the things she does.
"They have great powurr" is not a 'plot'. Absolutely nothing supports what she does, she just -does it- and we're expected to nod and say, "okay". That's NOT a story, any more than a series of fart noises from a Porg explains Snoke.
So again, Batman is the most intelligent person on the planet despite others having modified intellects as meta humans or other such nonsense "For NO REASON". Why is that ok?
People having a natural talent is just a thing that exists in both the real world and fictional worlds. Both Kylo and Rey have more Raw power then anyone that has been seen to date. Is Kylo equally bad writing? I haven't seen you talk about him yet?
Rey was raised in a place where she needed to know how to fight to survive. Luke wasn't. Rey was technologically inclined because she needed those skills to survive as a scavenger. Rey built a flight simulator and trained on it.
Besides all this, we have seen that as much as the force is just a passive thing that exists as part of the fabric of the SW world it's also something that seems to have at least a sub conscious will. If we are REALLY going to believe that Anakin is a force jesus then the force can bring people about "For NO REASON" with extreme amounts of power to serve a purpose. Right now the galaxy has been trapped in an endless cycle of tipping back and forth between the light and the dark. Kylo and Rey could very well be the answer to cycle. To finally break it. We don't know yet. Their story isn't done. Would you have considered it better writing if somebody decided to do a 5 minute exposition on a prophecy or theory that implied that?
Kylo gets the bad guy bonus, all bad guys are more powerful than the good guys, that's what makes their ultimate defeat feel rewarding and it's the basis for all epics & sagas. There's no epic tales of a god smiting a worm. When the worm is stronger than gods just because, and for no stated reason, that makes the worm a marry sue, it's bad story telling and makes an unbelievable and unrelatable character.
Kylo has a backstory that explains his level of power, rey does not, even anikin needed training, he had a good 10 years in jedi school. At this point in the movies, kylo needs a training montage just to catch up to ray.
how does she know what modifications have been done and linage of the falcon, yet not know it's name? If you think batman is a sue because of his intelligence, then you must concede that rey is as well. she just builds a flight simulator and knows exactly where a component is and how to bypass it? That's not technically inclined, that's batman levels of smarts. And batman is not that smart, most of his toys are stolen R&D from his company with a bat symbol painted on it. He trained his whole life in combat styles, rey who spent most of her time scrapping wouldn't have had that time, nor training. good with tech, sure, good at everything? that's sue's territory.
we don't need a 5 minute exposition on the force, but all good stories have forshadowing of things to come, TLJ doesn't. after 2 movies we should be able to deduce some of the plot points in the 3rd movie, all good stories do this, TLJ doesn't.
My point is I don't think Batmans a sue. I don't think a Mary Sue in it's modern definition exists. If YOU think Rey is a Sue then you need to turn that on everyone else in fiction. Comic Batman is smart. Dark Knight movie Batman is an idiot who steals things from his companies R&D. I am talking comic batman who outsmarts comic lex lurther, gorllia grodd, an entire race of intersteller conquering aliens, the new gods, etc etc etc...
Based on TLJ I think it's likely that Rey and Kylos relationship comes to head. They go some place leaving the galactic battle crap alone and they foam a new Not Jedi/ Not Sith order thats about the balance instead of the light or the dark. I think it's pretty wel forshadowed in TLJ that the systems for raising force users we have seen and the galaxy has had for thousands and thousands of years don't work and these 2 don't believe in them because they are seeing their failings first hand.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: It’s funny how so many people are experts in how made up space magic works
Maybe it’s like X-Men mutations, with each powerful Force user exhibiting different super (sorry, I mean Force) powers?
No form of SW media has ever shown a division in force powers other than choke/lightning variations being specific to the Dark Side and there being a few esoteric abilities limited to individuals, ie Windu's Shatterpoint and Bastila's Battle Meditation.
The nature of space magic is just a red herring. What actually matters is narrative structure. Introducing an important character who is inexplicably powerful (there are two in TFA: Rey and Snoke) implies that her or his power is a mystery that will be addressed as the story unfolds. TFA sets up the shot and TLJ fails to score.
The Batman example is terrible. Batman is not some incredible genius. He is well within the range of normal human intelligence. He has acquired detective skills through training and experience. This is the exact opposite of Rey.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: It’s funny how so many people are experts in how made up space magic works
Maybe it’s like X-Men mutations, with each powerful Force user exhibiting different super (sorry, I mean Force) powers?
No form of SW media has ever shown a division in force powers other than choke/lightning variations being specific to the Dark Side and there being a few esoteric abilities limited to individuals, ie Windu's Shatterpoint and Bastila's Battle Meditation.
Given the explanation behind Force Lightning being "weaponized hate" It's certainly a good reason why we don't see most Jedi use it (Not barring the EU's weird Emerald Lightning Plo koon used)
Manchu wrote: The nature of space magic is just a red herring. What actually matters is narrative structure. Introducing an important character who is inexplicably powerful (there are two in TFA: Rey and Snoke) implies that her or his power is a mystery that will be addressed as the story unfolds. TFA sets up the shot and TLJ fails to score.
It's not as if their strength is explicably stated. Snoke clearly trumps Kylo and Rey, but is exceedingly arrogant. Kylo has an edge on Rey. We have no idea where Luke stands since he has no feats outside of projection in the sequels. Though, I'd assume it's intended to be Snoke > Luke > Kylo > Rey and Rey's potential is a balancing act to counteract Kylo Ren.
The issue is not how they rank on a Marvel-esque power level score. What rankles is that there is no accounting for their power. Put another way, we want to know who these characters are. And the official answer ("It doesn't matter") is lazy and boring and disappointing.
The issue is not how they rank on a Marvel-esque power level score. What rankles is that there is no accounting for their power. Put another way, we want to know who these characters are. And the official answer ("It doesn't matter") is lazy and boring and disappointing.
Lazy and boring and disappointing ... and probably true.
The story of how the Emperor became the Emperor and how Dark Vader got his high tech samurai helmet actually made me like Star Wars less, not more. But then, I personally think Star Wars jumped the shark when it turned out everyone had to be related to someone. The idea that Rey is just some abandoned kid with massive innate talent and that Snoke isn’t actually an important character to the story, was actually quite the refreshing point in an otherwise forgettable film.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: It’s funny how so many people are experts in how made up space magic works
Maybe it’s like X-Men mutations, with each powerful Force user exhibiting different super (sorry, I mean Force) powers?
No form of SW media has ever shown a division in force powers other than choke/lightning variations being specific to the Dark Side and there being a few esoteric abilities limited to individuals, ie Windu's Shatterpoint and Bastila's Battle Meditation.
So, no force user has ever had a unique power, except the two you’ve named? Is it s problem then if two exceptions becomes three exceptions? What’s the maximum number of exceptions allowed per galaxy?
Personally I don’t know what a Windu Shatterpoint or a Bastila is though. I don’t remember seeing them in any of the movies I’ve watched.
Bastila is from Knights of the Old Republic. Battle Meditation is basically a skill where a single person can use the force to guide the course of a battle.
They were conceived through the Force and prophesied to be the Chosen ones? I must have missed that somewhere between snot monster milk tits and fat Asian chick scowl.
They were conceived through the Force and prophesied to be the Chosen ones? I must have missed that somewhere between snot monster milk tits and fat Asian chick scowl.
Are you actually saying that, conceived through the force and prophesied to be the chosen one, is better writing than, they’re just really good at the force? If you are, I’m going to have to totally disagree.
And yet, it's what starwars has always been. Also, "appeal to children" is something SW is designed to do.
As I can tell, it does exactly that.
Anyway, you still don't understand 'they just have powurr' is not 'plot'. Good luck defending your turd heap.
I ever argued "They just have powurr" I argued that if the force can make a Jesus then the force can empower others to break the cycle the galaxy has been entrenched in. I also argued that natural aptitude is a part of being a person.
They were conceived through the Force and prophesied to be the Chosen ones? I must have missed that somewhere between snot monster milk tits and fat Asian chick scowl.
Are you actually saying that, conceived through the force and prophesied to be the chosen one, is better writing than, they’re just really good at the force? If you are, I’m going to have to totally disagree.
He certainly seems to be!
But more correctly, hes arguing that if someone on screen doesn't sit there and spell it out for you by telling you that the force may have empowered them then it's bad writing to have the viewership assume that a thing we have literally seen happen before (the force be an active entity) is an impossible explanation and just bad writing.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: Are you actually saying that, conceived through the force and prophesied to be the chosen one, is better writing than, they’re just really good at the force? If you are, I’m going to have to totally disagree.
Then just go right ahead and totally disagree. I'm totally fine that you believe that the worst part of the Star Wars movies is almost as absurd as the second worst part of the Star Wars movies.
Lance845 wrote: I ever argued "They just have powurr" I argued that if the force can make a Jesus then the force can empower others to break the cycle the galaxy has been entrenched in. I also argued that natural aptitude is a part of being a person.
Argue the aptitude all you like. You do realize that people can have great power in fiction, right? But when 'great power' is used as a substitute for, well, everything that makes a character- it is bad writing.
Now what was this point you were trying to make about me disliking Rey, and what it tells? I'm dying to hear it.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: Are you actually saying that, conceived through the force and prophesied to be the chosen one, is better writing than, they’re just really good at the force? If you are, I’m going to have to totally disagree.
Then just go right ahead and totally disagree. I'm totally fine that you believe that the worst part of the Star Wars movies is almost as absurd as the second worst part of the Star Wars movies.
Lance845 wrote: I ever argued "They just have powurr" I argued that if the force can make a Jesus then the force can empower others to break the cycle the galaxy has been entrenched in. I also argued that natural aptitude is a part of being a person.
Argue the aptitude all you like. You do realize that people can have great power in fiction, right? But when 'great power' is used as a substitute for, well, everything that makes a character- it is bad writing.
Now what was this point you were trying to make about me disliking Rey, and what it tells? I'm dying to hear it.
I didn't have a point about you disliking Rey. I had a point about you going on tantrums and spewing hate.
You just ignore all the other bits of her character because your hung up on her power. It's fine. I get where your coming from. At this point I think we all have a pretty solid picture of why you specifically feel the way you feel. You don't like it and thats FINE.
Lance845 wrote: I didn't have a point about you disliking Rey. I had a point about you going on tantrums and spewing hate.
At no point has there been a 'tantrum' from me (ironic, considering your posts). And what 'hate' have I spewed? You do realize that you can dislike a movie and it's not 'hate' in this horrible sense, right? It's a MOVIE. It's like hating brussel sprouts or thunderstorms- it's a thing. It's not a race, gender, or group of people, or an individual. Calm the Hell down, dude.
Lance845 wrote: You just ignore all the other bits of her character because your hung up on her power. It's fine. I get where your coming from. At this point I think we all have a pretty solid picture of why you specifically feel the way you feel. You don't like it and thats FINE.
She has other parts of her character? Two movies in, could've fooled me.
Yes, Anakin's dumb fatherless conception by the Force is better than no explanation whatsoever. It doesn't mean Anakin's background is good. It just means that it exists, whereas Rey's doesn't.
I also can't fathom how introducing a major character only to just dismiss them is "refreshing." If it happened in a TV show, you'd wonder if the guy playing Snoke had been fired for sexual harassment so they had to write him out pronto.
Lance845 wrote: I didn't have a point about you disliking Rey. I had a point about you going on tantrums and spewing hate.
At no point has there been a 'tantrum' from me (ironic, considering your posts). And what 'hate' have I spewed? You do realize that you can dislike a movie and it's not 'hate' in this horrible sense, right? It's a MOVIE. It's like hating brussel sprouts or thunderstorms- it's a thing. It's not a race, gender, or group of people, or an individual. Calm the Hell down, dude.
Oh I am very calm. I know you like to see me as some "SJW white knight protecting my precious Rey because she is a female and that means she must be a good character" despite me never having said any of those thing. As you said "We have done this before" and the last time you got put in a time out. So instead of trying to turn the discussion back into all of that why not just stick to talking about the character.
Lance845 wrote: You just ignore all the other bits of her character because your hung up on her power. It's fine. I get where your coming from. At this point I think we all have a pretty solid picture of why you specifically feel the way you feel. You don't like it and thats FINE.
She has other parts of her character? Two movies in, could've fooled me.
Thank you for proving my point.
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Manchu wrote: Yes, Anakin's dumb fatherless conception by the Force is better than no explanation whatsoever. It doesn't mean Anakin's background is good. It's just means that it exists, whereas Rey's doesn't.
I also can't fathom how introducing a major character only to just dismiss them is "refreshing." If it happened in a TV show, you'd wonder if the guy playing Snoke had been fire for sexual harassment so they had to write him out pronto.
It's refreshing because we are now some 16 hours deep in SW movies and all but 2 of them have been about one families blood line, destiny, and everyone being a call back and connected to everyone else. To FINALLY have it just be some people in the SW universe is very refreshing.
Lance845 wrote: Oh I am very calm. I know you like to see me as some "SJW white knight protecting my precious Rey because she is a female and that means she must be a good character" despite me never having said any of those thing. As you said "We have done this before" and the last time you got put in a time out. So instead of trying to turn the discussion back into all of that why not just stick to talking about the character.
Did I say this, or are you making things up again? Trust me, the little 'time-outs' don't particularly scare me, and if I really wanted you to know what I thought of you- not much would stop me from making sure you knew exactly what it was. It's Dakkadakka, not my bank account.
Again,you need to calm the hell down.
And if I'm not mistaken, it's against Forum rules to discuss any Moderator actions on the forum. So, we'll see how this goes...
Your point is "You ignore everything about her character". My point is, "there isn't much to speak of, because lazy writers thought 'great powurr' was a substitute for character development". Not much you've said or done has been proven.
Lance845 wrote: Oh I am very calm. I know you like to see me as some "SJW white knight protecting my precious Rey because she is a female and that means she must be a good character" despite me never having said any of those thing. As you said "We have done this before" and the last time you got put in a time out. So instead of trying to turn the discussion back into all of that why not just stick to talking about the character.
Did I say this, or are you making things up again? Trust me, the little 'time-outs' don't particularly scare me, and if I really wanted you to know what I thought of you- not much would stop me from making sure you knew exactly what it was. It's Dakkadakka, not my bank account.
Your point is "You ignore everything about her character". My point is, "there isn't much to speak of, because lazy writers thought 'great powurr' was a substitute for character development". Not much you've said or done has been proven.
Again, super calm. Always entertained.
A character looking for her parents, swept up on this new conflict, hopeful to get some answers disappointed by luke, pushed towards the dark, resists it, tries to redeem kylo.
All of those actions and events can be explained by "power"?
There are emotions and motivations at play there that say a lot about who she is which is what makes a character. She has fears. She has doubts. She has hopes. Sometimes those hopes get crushed. Often her hopes have been crushed. She hoped to find in Luke some positive answers and direction. She hoped Kylo would join her. She hoped where she came from would be big and meaningful and powerful and give her direction. And none of those hopes panned out particularly well. She's on her own path now.
Manchu wrote: I am not sure what a conclusion to this trilogy would be at this point, much less a satisfactory one. The job of the middle installment is to escalate the action and nail down the conflicts to be resolved in the final installment and TLJ flat out fails at that.
Asking for JJ Abrams to produce a satisfying ending is like asking for Cylons to actually have a plan. I mean the guy left so many mystery boxes in TFA which most writers would try to explain and then bounced on the next film. I mean the theme of Kylo's relationship with Han was kind of important but had to have known Ford was not likely to come back to do more. It was just the standard Abrams character with daddy issues that wasn't even going to get the heavy helping of flashbacks to try to justify even if he went on to TLJ.
So one thing to throw out there is that the relationship between Rei and Kylo isn't that of the plucky hero vs evil overlord. It is the new kid at school vs the duche bag with all the advantages. Kylo has all the advantages in the story but has never encountered any real challenges until he encounters some new person he classified as a nobody who turns out can actually challenge him. As he's challenged his world view of him being better than everyone begins to crumble allowing the hero to reverse his attacks. Vader is the remote daddy figure he's trying to desperately get the approval of and Snoke is the jackass coach trying to get him to kick ass.
I disagree and I don't believe there's much that supports this.
Lance845 wrote: A character looking for her parents, swept up on this new conflict, hopeful to get some answers disappointed by luke, pushed towards the dark, resists it, tries to redeem kylo.
Yes, a character looking for her parents... that also happens to be the most powerful Jedi we've ever seen, can fly the Falcon, use firearms and lightsabers with no training whatsoever, never shows any Force abilities until it's time to throw Jedi Mind Tricks around... this is bad character writing by any stretch. If I wrote this on the internet, it'd be the subject of ridicule. If any other movie wrote this, it'd be a joke on par with the Twilight movies.
Lance845 wrote: All of those actions and events can be explained by "power"?
No, but you can smokescreen the hell out of a boring, lazy Mary Sue by throwing in whiz-bang powers to wow the audience. It's a lazy writing trick. Might work for a video game, but not so much for a movie.
Lance845 wrote: There are emotions and motivations at play there that say a lot about who she is which is what makes a character. She has fears. She has doubts. She has hopes. Sometimes those hopes get crushed. Often her hopes have been crushed. She hoped to find in Luke some positive answers and direction. She hoped Kylo would join her. She hoped where she came from would be big and meaningful and powerful and give her direction. And none of those hopes panned out particularly well. She's on her own path now.
Or apparently shes just "Power".
She's just a boring slate that's just 'power', literally every part of everything you just mentioned was so poorly executed and hamfisted it may as well not be there at all. And "she's on her own path now". Yeah, what I wouldn't give for an Order 66 to stop that garbage.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: How dare you hate Brussels sprouts! What kind of monster are you?!
Actually I like them quite a bit. Just an example.
The execution may very well be poor, or not, scene to scene, but poor, or not, its there. Again, you just ignore all the bits that make up her character to say she has none.
Which proves my point. So there really isn't much else to say on this with you. If you insist on hand waving away most of the scenes her character is a part of then what could you possibly have to say of any value about her?
Lance845 wrote: If you insist on hand waving away most of the scenes her character is a part of then what could you possibly have to say of any value about her?
She's the least ugliest woman in the entire saga. That's about as nice as I can get.
Her 'scenes' were painful, at best we got some weird special effects in a 'scene' and half a scowl because she has about as many facial expressions as a potato.
Lance845 wrote: If you insist on hand waving away most of the scenes her character is a part of then what could you possibly have to say of any value about her?
She's the least ugliest woman in the entire saga. That's about as nice as I can get.
Her 'scenes' were painful, at best we got some weird special effects in a 'scene' and half a scowl because she has about as many facial expressions as a potato.
err for me Natalie Portman and Carrie Fisher in that outfit look much better
What exactly happened to Ben Solo to create Kylo Ren is not important.
People keep complaining about Checkov's gun but Occam's razer is just as important. If Han solo isn't the protagonist of the story we do'nt need massively detailed explanation about his relationship with Kylo Ren beyond poisoned father-son. Rey being related to someone important from previous movies might be temporarily satisfying for fanboys but ultimately would have required some big leaps or really convoluted storytelling.
Rey's powers are I think near perfectly equal to Kylo Ren's during TLJ (and even arguably after the interrogation in TFA). As Snoke says: "Darkness rises and light to meet it." Or if Kylo ren gets stronger so does Rey.
Rey as a character is average at best.
The subversion of the last jedi is most obvious with Poe. He has a seemingly fairly traditional heroes journey along with Finn and rose(the less said about the casino , the better more on the rest later). Traditionally the narrative will prove him right over his antagonist (Holdo) however it doesn't. His plans fail and partially because of his failures the resistance loses a lot. The biggest lesson Poe has to learn is meaningless heroic sacrifice/ pyrhicc victories gain you nothing.
Finn and Rose could have worked but I think the movie would have been better cutting out the entire casino plot skipping straight to sneaking aboard the Supremacy.
Luke is an interesting choice. Once again he is no longer the hero of this story. In fact he is an obstacle for rey to overcome. Note Luke would never have actually killed Ben but he believed Luke would and thus did become Kylo ren. To Anyone who says Luke would never evne fall for that trap and ignite his lightsaber please do yourself a favour and rewatch the scene in RotJ where he cuts vader hand of.
The movie failed in China mostly because the franchise as a whole never really caught. They didn't have the prequels there originally. And if you don't know Luke the finale falls totally flat. TFA had novelty , Rogue one had kickass Chinese/Asian characters.
PS: there is a scientific reason most people dislike Brussels sprouts.
Earth127 wrote: As Snoke says: "Darkness rises and light to meet it." Or if Kylo ren gets stronger so does Rey.
Ah, that classic line.
Hey, remember that bit in Rocky IV where we see Drago running on a track, hitting a speed ball and being pumped full of steroids to make him the ultimate boxing machine? How we all loved the associated scene where Rocky hops in a jacuzzi, smokes cigars and peruses Playboy, because we can trust that "Soviet boxing ability rises and US boxing ability to meet it".
Lance845 wrote: I never said her power is what made her a good character. I said her power is what explains why she can do the things she does in the same way that Kylo could do things we have never seen anyone else do as well.
Sure, she can do things Luke can't do (other than generate facial expressions). For NO REASON. It's like suddenly, in the Lord of the Rings saga, a 14 year old super-wizard shows up and starts crushing mountains with a word and just hurls Sauron's Eye into the sun. It. Is. Bad. Writing.
Lance845 wrote: You are free to dislike the character. You are free to dislike the story. But if your reason for disliking both is that Rey does things that Luke couldn't when there are lines in the movie that flat out tell you she and Kylo are a tier above then thats just you ignoring an entire plot point for the character for the sake of your dislike. People have argued poor pacing. I can see it. I don't debate it. But Rey being capable? We have seen in stroy elements that support all the reasons she can do the things she does.
"They have great powurr" is not a 'plot'. Absolutely nothing supports what she does, she just -does it- and we're expected to nod and say, "okay". That's NOT a story, any more than a series of fart noises from a Porg explains Snoke.
So again, Batman is the most intelligent person on the planet despite others having modified intellects as meta humans or other such nonsense "For NO REASON". Why is that ok?
People having a natural talent is just a thing that exists in both the real world and fictional worlds. Both Kylo and Rey have more Raw power then anyone that has been seen to date. Is Kylo equally bad writing? I haven't seen you talk about him yet?
Rey was raised in a place where she needed to know how to fight to survive. Luke wasn't. Rey was technologically inclined because she needed those skills to survive as a scavenger. Rey built a flight simulator and trained on it.
Besides all this, we have seen that as much as the force is just a passive thing that exists as part of the fabric of the SW world it's also something that seems to have at least a sub conscious will. If we are REALLY going to believe that Anakin is a force jesus then the force can bring people about "For NO REASON" with extreme amounts of power to serve a purpose. Right now the galaxy has been trapped in an endless cycle of tipping back and forth between the light and the dark. Kylo and Rey could very well be the answer to cycle. To finally break it. We don't know yet. Their story isn't done. Would you have considered it better writing if somebody decided to do a 5 minute exposition on a prophecy or theory that implied that?
Kylo gets the bad guy bonus, all bad guys are more powerful than the good guys, that's what makes their ultimate defeat feel rewarding and it's the basis for all epics & sagas. There's no epic tales of a god smiting a worm. When the worm is stronger than gods just because, and for no stated reason, that makes the worm a marry sue, it's bad story telling and makes an unbelievable and unrelatable character.
Kylo has a backstory that explains his level of power, rey does not, even anikin needed training, he had a good 10 years in jedi school. At this point in the movies, kylo needs a training montage just to catch up to ray.
how does she know what modifications have been done and linage of the falcon, yet not know it's name? If you think batman is a sue because of his intelligence, then you must concede that rey is as well. she just builds a flight simulator and knows exactly where a component is and how to bypass it? That's not technically inclined, that's batman levels of smarts. And batman is not that smart, most of his toys are stolen R&D from his company with a bat symbol painted on it. He trained his whole life in combat styles, rey who spent most of her time scrapping wouldn't have had that time, nor training. good with tech, sure, good at everything? that's sue's territory.
we don't need a 5 minute exposition on the force, but all good stories have forshadowing of things to come, TLJ doesn't. after 2 movies we should be able to deduce some of the plot points in the 3rd movie, all good stories do this, TLJ doesn't.
My point is I don't think Batmans a sue. I don't think a Mary Sue in it's modern definition exists. If YOU think Rey is a Sue then you need to turn that on everyone else in fiction. Comic Batman is smart. Dark Knight movie Batman is an idiot who steals things from his companies R&D. I am talking comic batman who outsmarts comic lex lurther, gorllia grodd, an entire race of intersteller conquering aliens, the new gods, etc etc etc...
Based on TLJ I think it's likely that Rey and Kylos relationship comes to head. They go some place leaving the galactic battle crap alone and they foam a new Not Jedi/ Not Sith order thats about the balance instead of the light or the dark. I think it's pretty wel forshadowed in TLJ that the systems for raising force users we have seen and the galaxy has had for thousands and thousands of years don't work and these 2 don't believe in them because they are seeing their failings first hand.
like this definition:
"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment. They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. A male can also be referred to as a Marty Stu or Gary Stu, but Mary Sue is used more commonly. "
or this one:
"A Mary Sue is a character (male, female, or otherwise) who is given or is expected to be given unwarranted preferential treatment and unearned respect, thereby compromising the integrity and believability of the story and/or its characters."
Like when leia hugs rey after losing han having never met her, then giving her the keys to the falcon and sending her to fetch luke. She is the best force user in the galaxy, no training or experience necessary, so: rey, yes to both, batman, no to both. Having doubts doesn't negate that she's yet to fail at any task. All hero jurneys follow the same theme, the main hero fails alot, grows from it, to untilmately win over the bad guy. Ray has yet to fail, and has already beat the bad guy twice in combat and once with mind force powers. So Ray is a Sue, luke is not. Ray is also the first hero of a star wars trilogy to not lose a hand in the second movie, maybe they're saving that for the 3rd.
the only "foreshadowing" in TLJ is "It's not going to end they way you think it is" So are you still going to find Rey a refreshing character coming from unknown parents if you find out she's Kenobi's love grandchild? Or lukes love child? I can totally see ray being lukes kid who he hid away on a desert planet to hide her from the monster he unleashed on the galaxy.
Ah yes, the “ignore my dead lover’s life long and grieving friend to go hug this stranger” issue...that detail pisses me off. I think Jay Jay actually acknowledged this obvious issue.
But in the interest of balance, didn’t they get over the destruction of Alderaan pretty quickly?
Which didn't happen. The ownership of the Falcon is not addressed on screen. For all we know Chewie is charging the Resistance UBER fees to drive everybody around.
Manchu wrote: Yes, Anakin's dumb fatherless conception by the Force is better than no explanation whatsoever. It doesn't mean Anakin's background is good. It's just means that it exists, whereas Rey's doesn't.
I also can't fathom how introducing a major character only to just dismiss them is "refreshing." If it happened in a TV show, you'd wonder if the guy playing Snoke had been fire for sexual harassment so they had to write him out pronto.
It's refreshing because we are now some 16 hours deep in SW movies and all but 2 of them have been about one families blood line, destiny, and everyone being a call back and connected to everyone else. To FINALLY have it just be some people in the SW universe is very refreshing.
But I didn't say Rey should have been [established character]'s relative. I just said she needs a backstory to explain her power.
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Crimson Devil wrote: Can it really be good vs evil if there isn't any good involved?
TLJ did not end with moral equivalency/ambivalency. There were clear good guys and clear bad guys. Benito was never a good guy or a "grey guy" - he was just a villain biding his time. (The opposite of ANH Han Solo.)
Adeptus Doritos wrote: That 'massive power gap' is what bothers people. There's no explanation for it, and it's absurd. Suddently two nobodies with scant training show up and are 'Force Gods'? No, this is one more example of someone confusing 'awssum powurr' with 'good character'. It's Dragonball heroics.
To be fair, Ben Solo did train with Luke for an unknown period of time, and it's implied during the flashback when Rey touched Luke's lightsaber that she was there as well.
It's rather a pity that TLJ didn't follow up on that; it would have explained much. But Rian Johnson was soooooo caught up in subverting everything Star Wars he forgot to... you know... write a decent story.
Manchu wrote: A good metaphor for TLJ relative to the larger franchise is vandalism. As bad as the prequels were they did not express contempt for Star Wars.
Yes, this. It comes across as a spiteful attack on what Abrams started with TFA.
Earth127 wrote: The subversion of the last jedi is most obvious with Poe. He has a seemingly fairly traditional heroes journey along with Finn and rose(the less said about the casino , the better more on the rest later). Traditionally the narrative will prove him right over his antagonist (Holdo) however it doesn't. His plans fail and partially because of his failures the resistance loses a lot. The biggest lesson Poe has to learn is meaningless heroic sacrifice/ pyrhicc victories gain you nothing.
Except Poe wouldn't have acted the way he did... except Holdo was a jerk.
Imagine being in the military, surrounded on a hilltop by an overwhelming force marching ever-closer... and your commander takes Holdo's attitude. You're watching death coming for you step by step and your commander not only isn't doing anything to stop the enemy, not only isn't doing anything to get you and all your military buddies off the hilltop, she's acting like nothing of significance is even occurring!
You'd come up with a plan to get at least YOUR backside off the hill, and if you're a good soldier you're going to be looking to get ALL the soldiers off the hill. Poe's plan isn't a bad one - send a strike team off to confuse enemy command and control and we'll run off the hill while they're confused. Not his fault that Rose and Finn screwed it up because they parked illegally...
Holdo's plan, when finally revealed, is 'we'll dump all our weapons here, I'll stay here to distract them, you sneak down the hill at the last moment, and hope they don't see you.' And the end result is exactly what you'd expect from that plan: if it weren't for a last-minute deus ex machina via Rey, everyone DIES.
And if Poe is bad for meaningless sacrifices, Holdo is JUST as bad, as her sacrifice doesn't gain the Resistance one. single. thing.
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Future War Cultist wrote: Ah yes, the “ignore my dead lover’s life long and grieving friend to go hug this stranger” issue...that detail pisses me off. I think Jay Jay actually acknowledged this obvious issue.
But in the interest of balance, didn’t they get over the destruction of Alderaan pretty quickly?
"We have no time for our sorrows, General. The plans for the Death Star are in this R2 unit." Princess Leia Organa upon arrival at the Rebel base, A New Hope
They didn't get over Alderaan quickly. They postponed their grief to deal with a life-threatening situation bearing down on them.
And quite a few didn't get over Alderaan at all. The command staff that stayed behind at Hoth? All Alderaanians. Not one got away after Han dragged Leia out. According to the novel, none even tried. They continued coordinating the evacuation and maintaining the barrage with the ion cannon until they died.
So you're upset Holdo didn't share her plans with a reckless pilot recently demoted by Holdo's superior officer? If it had been anyone other than Leia, Poe would've been in the brig or out the airlock.
Crimson Devil wrote: Which didn't happen. The ownership of the Falcon is not addressed on screen. For all we know Chewie is charging the Resistance UBER fees to drive everybody around.
You'd think chewie would just take the ship and go home. The resistance is dead, Han is dead, He can finally go home and spend his days with his family, now that he no longer has a life debt to repay.
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Crimson Devil wrote: So you're upset Holdo didn't share her plans with a reckless pilot recently demoted by Holdo's superior officer? If it had been anyone other than Leia, Poe would've been in the brig or out the airlock.
Leia would have shared the plan, she was good at briefing the troops. Holdo not telling the crew her plan makes her the worst admiral in history, and if she had lived, Leia would have shoved her out an airlock.
Holdo's failure can easily be seen by asking the question: If she doesn't trust Poe, why does she feel he's the best choice for leading the rebellion? Apparently you have to mutiny to earn her trust.
Manchu wrote: There were clear good guys and clear bad guys. Benito was never a good guy or a "grey guy" - he was just a villain biding his time. (The opposite of ANH Han Solo.)
In that thread for awesome Star Wars moments there were a lot of little scenes in TLJ that I really did like, but on the whole I thought the movie was pretty eh at best. That being said, my wife and I were super excited when Benicio Del Toro showed up, and then he just... kinda sucked. It wasn't that he turned out to be a villain so much as he turned out to be uninteresting. I guess we'll have to wait for Soldado.
Crimson Devil wrote: Which didn't happen. The ownership of the Falcon is not addressed on screen. For all we know Chewie is charging the Resistance UBER fees to drive everybody around.
You'd think chewie would just take the ship and go home. The resistance is dead, Han is dead, He can finally go home and spend his days with his family, now that he no longer has a life debt to repay.
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Crimson Devil wrote: So you're upset Holdo didn't share her plans with a reckless pilot recently demoted by Holdo's superior officer? If it had been anyone other than Leia, Poe would've been in the brig or out the airlock.
Leia would have shared the plan, she was good at briefing the troops. Holdo not telling the crew her plan makes her the worst admiral in history, and if she had lived, Leia would have shoved her out an airlock.
Holdo's failure can easily be seen by asking the question: If she doesn't trust Poe, why does she feel he's the best choice for leading the rebellion? Apparently you have to mutiny to earn her trust.
Chewie might want to repay the SOB that killed Han.
Leia and Poe have a relationship. Holdo and Poe don't. It's not like Poe told Holdo about the tracking device. No trust there.
Crimson Devil wrote: So you're upset Holdo didn't share her plans with a reckless pilot recently demoted by Holdo's superior officer? If it had been anyone other than Leia, Poe would've been in the brig or out the airlock.
And if not for a Deus Ex Machina, she would have been mutinied. Fortunately, plot armor protected her and Leia woke up just in time with a pistol. (More of that stellar writing there)
But hey, it's not like being a military leader requires you to communicate your intent and plans with your subordinate officers and personnel. They just always do that "I'm gonna keep it a secret to be a cowboy and keep my reputation as an edgy awesome person, leave my guys in the dark." Winning strategy.
Leia picked Holdo's side and plan over Poe's. We see Holdo start to secure the flight deck with a distraction so she didn't need a Deus ex machina. You're delusionall if you think Leia would have shoved her out of an airlock.
Holdo's plan would have succeeded if it didn't leek to the first order. The transports were cloacked. And untill DJ told the first order to run a scan they didn't.
Holdo's sacrifice had a purpose. It prevented the Raddus's long range guns from continuing to fire on the resistance transports. Rey's fight in the throne room was not involved.
If you wanna critice the movie fine. But don't ignore parts of it to do so.
Leia and Poe have a relationship. Holdo and Poe don't. It's not like Poe told Holdo about the tracking device. No trust there.
Actually, I believe they did tell her about the FO having a ship tracking them in hyperspace but that was largely considered impossible for most of SW existence and even Rose stated that that was some bleeding edge tech in the movie. Chances are, if I was Holdo, I would be working under the suspicion that a spy had planted a tracking device on the flag ship, like Vader had put on the Falcon to find Yavin, because a traitor is the simplest of the options and should be ruled out first. The funny thing is, even with the FO actively tracking them, if not for Finn and Rose the plan with the cloaked transports might have worked.
Also, I'm pretty sure most COs don't like having to explain themselves in combat operations to their underlings. I'm pretty sure that has been used in other media to create tension between characters. The thing to remember about Holdo is that at least it wasn't Admiral Akbar whose rep was ruined in the movie by being in command of this.
Poe saw part of Holdo's plan while on the bridge and denounced her for cowardice. Later Poe told her his plan and she dismissed it as crap. Poe then committed mutiny to give Finn and Rose time. They have a great relationship.
So I was watching Empire tonight and decided to give it the TLJ critical viewing.
The dialogue in the sick bay is horrible.
Why didn't Luke stay in the shelter of the Wampa cave? It's not like he couldn't kill it and he had plenty of Tauntaun available to eat.
Why is an AT-AT's armor able to repel snow speeder blaster while it's on all fours, but it can't as soon as it face plants?
If the armor on top is weaker, why did the rebels not use their X-Wings?
What's the tensile strength of those grapples anyway? What exactly are they normally used for?
Why is it the Empire can't pilot their capital ships without running into each other? It happens in ESB and ROTJ?
I stopped there, otherwise I was in for a miserable experience.
Earth127 wrote: Leia picked Holdo's side and plan over Poe's. We see Holdo start to secure the flight deck with a distraction so she didn't need a Deus ex machina. You're delusionall if you think Leia would have shoved her out of an airlock.
Holdo's plan would have succeeded if it didn't leek to the first order. The transports were cloacked. And untill DJ told the first order to run a scan they didn't.
Which also has the bad writing of why does it take the criminal to ask the Military Fleet looking for someone to start their scanners.
Earth127 wrote: Leia picked Holdo's side and plan over Poe's. We see Holdo start to secure the flight deck with a distraction so she didn't need a Deus ex machina. You're delusionall if you think Leia would have shoved her out of an airlock.
Holdo's plan would have succeeded if it didn't leek to the first order. The transports were cloacked. And untill DJ told the first order to run a scan they didn't.
Holdo's sacrifice had a purpose. It prevented the Raddus's long range guns from continuing to fire on the resistance transports. Rey's fight in the throne room was not involved.
If you wanna critice the movie fine. But don't ignore parts of it to do so.
Poor writing and directing is still poor writing/directing - I know the critics love to blame the audience for the failings of film they like or have been convinced to like but its still true
Holdos plan - fly towards the planet you hope to escape on and then when the destination is obvious to all but the most stupid - so pretty much everyone in the film, then wonder towards it in flimsy transports that have lost their hyperdrives somewhere- knowing that the FO has sensors that can track them through hyperspace never mind normal space. Don't for instance use the various hyperspace capable ships that they start the Chase of Tedium with to all go in different directions - nah just let them get blown up.
A good or at least competent director might have tried to make the narrative contrivances at least a little hidden, but nah he didn't care - everything happens as it does because t has to for his silly little scenarios to play out - decent films might make you think "hmm why did they do that" but they shouldn't every five mins and through the actual screening. But this is not a decent film.
Its just one contrivance piled high on another - such terrible lazy writing: "Ohhs no they blew up our bridge and fighter bay with 3 fighters - hope they don't send anymore." (Oh that's lucky - their commanders are as piss poor as ours"
Nope - the entire FO fleet apparently either has a grand total of three fighters or the rest are just playing cards of something. Again its just their to make the "Chase of Tedium" more tedious - nope no constant fighter duelling as the plucky rebels try to protect their ships - nope lets have a couple of blobs crawling across the screen- again and again occasionally firing its gun - wow way to go director - such tension.
Holdo's sacrifice - If she had gone straight to hypesapce to draw off the FO fleet - that would have made sense but no she just wonders along
Then forgets that there was an autopilot and that apparently the FO fleet can't detect that there is only one life form on board - its simply there just so that the Director could have a flashy effects sequence - nothing more. Its then stated by another pointless character that "Sacrifice is bad m'kay" - or not , maybe - the director does not care enough to decide.
So watched it with my niece last night, she is 16, mixed race, a army cadet and gay, she wanted to know who the useless purple haired feminazi was..... she also said it’s the most boring care chase she has ever seen and kept asking me why they went to the horse races.... well, she is the target demographic and she hated it, I asked her what she thought and she said “Uncle ....I thought it was stupid and pointless, the story made no sense and why was the old man so angry”
Words failed me, she now thinks Star Wars is “SJW crap” which disappoints me no end as we have always been close and we watched Star Wars when she was growing up, it’s something we’ve always had in common, I turned her into a nerd from a young age, these new movies have threatened that, not happy, at least we have the old ones.
Formosa wrote: So watched it with my niece last night, she is 16, mixed race, a army cadet and gay, she wanted to know who the useless purple haired feminazi was..... she also said it’s the most boring care chase she has ever seen and kept asking me why they went to the horse races.... well, she is the target demographic and she hated it, I asked her what she thought and she said “Uncle ....I thought it was stupid and pointless, the story made no sense and why was the old man so angry”
Words failed me, she now thinks Star Wars is “SJW crap” which disappoints me no end as we have always been close and we watched Star Wars when she was growing up, it’s something we’ve always had in common, I turned her into a nerd from a young age, these new movies have threatened that, not happy, at least we have the old ones.
She obviously just hates women (but secretly in fact so secretly even she does not know) -
but otherwise sad to hear :( Again if the film was about empowering women - - which is fine and most recent action movies actually do so - why are the female characters so awful - badly drawn, poorly written, often pointless?
Skaorn wrote: Also, I'm pretty sure most COs don't like having to explain themselves in combat operations to their underlings.
Uh, yeah. They kinda do. The Commander declares his intent and his desired end state. This is a fundamental principle of leadership. Your commander has to direct you, and in a combat situation you're expected to be able to think. If his end state is communicated clearly, you're able to visualize how to get there and you're prepared for any unexpected events that hinder the plan. A stupid commander wouldn't make that clear, and if he's relying on simple 'obey orders as I say' as a leadership style without keeping his staff and troops informed- things will go badly, and his career will come to an abrupt halt (one way or another).
Mr Morden wrote: but otherwise sad to hear :( Again if the film was about empowering women - - which is fine and most recent action movies actually do so - why are the female characters so awful - badly drawn, poorly written, often pointless?
Not for nothing, but this isn't really new. For about a decade we had a disturbing amount of movies that were basically "hot chick in black bodysuit with two pistols". Not that I hate hot chicks in black bodysuits, but they were pretty much eye-candy in both 'hot chick' sense and stupid gunplay/gun-fu garbage.
But the 'new' Female Heroes seem to be less about writing a good character and they're almost deliberately Mary Sues for shallow audiences to self-project onto. It's insulting, I'm sure.
Crimson Devil wrote: Poe saw part of Holdo's plan while on the bridge and denounced her for cowardice. Later Poe told her his plan and she dismissed it as crap. Poe then committed mutiny to give Finn and Rose time. They have a great relationship.
So I was watching Empire tonight and decided to give it the TLJ critical viewing.
The dialogue in the sick bay is horrible.
Why didn't Luke stay in the shelter of the Wampa cave? It's not like he couldn't kill it and he had plenty of Tauntaun available to eat.
Why is an AT-AT's armor able to repel snow speeder blaster while it's on all fours, but it can't as soon as it face plants?
If the armor on top is weaker, why did the rebels not use their X-Wings?
What's the tensile strength of those grapples anyway? What exactly are they normally used for?
Why is it the Empire can't pilot their capital ships without running into each other? It happens in ESB and ROTJ?
I stopped there, otherwise I was in for a miserable experience.
And that’s a large part of the problem. They’re movies for 12 year olds. George Lucas said it himself. However, we look at them now with our adult mentality and we can pick all kinds of holes in all them them, but with our nostalgia glasses on, we give the silliness a get out of jail card.
People of my generation, who saw the originals as kids in the 70s and 80s, often think the prequels were garbage.
It seems people who were kids when the prequels came out often love them. Many of them loved Jar Jar. Now they’re probably filling the internet with how Rian Johnson killed Star Wars. Just like my generation did with the prequels.
There’s probably 12 year olds out there who think Rey and Finn are awesome.
I think the issue with Star Wars is they’re kids movies that don’t actually appeal to adults, unless those adults watched them as kids and are filled with nostalgic feelings for them. I know of at least 2 friends who fell through the gaps. Their childhood coincided with the years between trilogies, they only watched Star Wars films as adults. Their reaction can be best summed up as, not being able to see what all the fuss is about.
Kilkrazy wrote: It's not a war documentary, it's a space fantasy action film.
The Expanse is supposed to be good for realistic space warfare.
I thought it was supposed to be a "intelligent subversion of the genre" - or some other nonsense - in that case would not a more realistic military be a new idea in Star Wars?
Anyway its not that its not remotely realistic in TLJ ( it never is in Star Wars) - its just constantly stupid people doing stupid things on both sides for no reason other than to set up the next dull scene or ultra tedious chase - there is suspension of disbelief in order to make the narrative work and the director not bothering to even try to make anything make sense.
And that’s a large part of the problem. They’re movies for 12 year olds. George Lucas said it himself. However, we look at them now with our adult mentality and we can pick all kinds of holes in all them them, but with our nostalgia glasses on, we give the silliness a get out of jail card
.
Except that not what those paid critics say - "no no no, its a visionary subversion of the universe" - not its a fun flick for kids - there are plenty of those - few get held up some sort of cinematic gem with the plot, pacing and character problems that this pile of gak is rife with.
Mr Morden wrote: Except that not what those paid critics say - "no no no, its a visionary subversion of the universe" - not its a fun flick for kids - there are plenty of those - few get held up some sort of cinematic gem with the plot, pacing and character problems that this pile of gak is rife with.
That's the issue I have.
For some reason, this Star Wars movie is being treated like it's a cinematic masterpiece the likes of which we've never seen. And if you see problems with it, you're stupid. Or a bigot. It's on par with "Black Panther is the greatest superhero movie ever made!". Might as well be screaming "Caitlyn Jenner is a beautiful and heroic woman!" It's a disingenuous assessment that pretty much amounts to cred-checking someone's ethics and pouncing on them if they disagree.
This isn't a good movie. At all. If it didn't have the name 'Star Wars' slapped on it, it'd have been a Syfy original picture on a Monday afternoon.
Also, I'm pretty sure most COs don't like having to explain themselves in combat operations to their underlings. I'm pretty sure that has been used in other media to create tension between characters. The thing to remember about Holdo is that at least it wasn't Admiral Akbar whose rep was ruined in the movie by being in command of this.
This is where you're wrong, it's exactly what CO's do. The CO briefs his department heads who brief their underlings. Akbar was good at briefings as well, in ROTJ everyone knew the plan, everyone knew what their jobs were. One of the many jobs I a mere underling had was to brief the CO before entering and leaving ports. The briefings go both ways, someone would have had to tell holdo where the landing pads where, and how to get to them, what beacons to follow, and any mines or hazards to avoid.
Especially when you plan to abandon ship, you have to let everyone know, they all have jobs to do, and they all have to assemble at their liferafts/escape pods. You especailly need to brief the pilots so they know where to fly the shuttles to a job left to the senior pilot who's still Poe. And everyone should be told their destination in case anyone gets separated, everyone should know the weather on the planet, life forms on the planet, and cords of the base their heading to.
If you don't let everyone know on a ship that size, you're going to leave people behind, holdo wasn't the only person on that ship. In Holdos 1/2 witted plan and because she didn't brief anyone, people got left onboard.
One of the more important jobs is to have the techs going around destroying the sensitive information so the enemy doesn't get ahold of it, not guarding escape pods. If the first order had instead just waited for it to run out of fuel, go dark, captured it, they could have gathered all the information the rebellion had. Which would have revealed the locations of every base they know about and all their operatives and missions.
Holdo's plan was just a work of failure across the board, showing total incompetence at leadership, thus deserving a walk to retirement through an airlock. Great leaders trust their troops. If she had briefed the troops, her plan would have worked slightly better, but she was still risking the fate of the entire rebellion with that horrible idea to just drive til we run out of fuel, let everyone leave so the ships undefended, and hope it gets blown up instead of captured.
Another thing that bothers me about this heap is how Luke and Yoda are written so that they're super keen on shutting this whole Jedi thing down. Not changing things, not trying to adapt their philosophy. Just quitting it.
Kinda stupid, considering that Snoke apparently manifested out of nowhere and took over the remnants of the Empire. Sith aren't going to suddenly stop playing because the Jedi decided to throw in the towel. How many more are out there?
But yeah, that's brilliant: "Well despite saving the galaxy multiple times from all manner of threats, we made a couple of screwups so we need to shut down."
Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. That's the most idiotic thing I can imagine.
Heard that a couple of firefighters did something dumb, better abolish the entire concept.
People like you keep saying this, but honestly the majority of "if you see problems with it you're a bigot" mentions have come from the anti-SJW crowd complaining about "some people" saying it. Many people have accurately pointed out that there has been sexist/racist/etc criticism of the movie, but I haven't seen anyone argue that criticizing it for, say, having poor pacing or plot holes means that you're stupid or a bigot.
People like you keep saying this, but honestly the majority of "if you see problems with it you're a bigot" mentions have come from the anti-SJW crowd complaining about "some people" saying it. Many people have accurately pointed out that there has been sexist/racist/etc criticism of the movie, but I haven't seen anyone argue that criticizing it for, say, having poor pacing or plot holes means that you're stupid or a bigot.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: But yeah, that's brilliant: "Well despite saving the galaxy multiple times from all manner of threats, we made a couple of screwups so we need to shut down."
Let's be honest here, the jedi haven't really done much saving. Look at it movie by movie:
TPM: irrelevant trade dispute on an irrelevant planet. I suppose the jedi contribute here, but the galaxy was never at stake. Oh, and they bring Vader out into the world instead of letting him spend the rest of his life safely tinkering with droids in the middle of nowhere.
AOTC: jedi do nothing. Their only meaningful galaxy-scale action is to act as puppets for the Emperor in arranging a battle in his fake war.
ROTS: jedi do nothing. They continue to act as puppets in the fake war, and are destroyed.
R1: no jedi present.
ANH: jedi contribute, but don't do much with the force. Most of their actions are probably duplicated by the rebellion's conventional forces and/or happen only because the main character has to be the hero. Because let's be honest here, in a more realistic movie the veteran bomber pilots do their job as bombers, remember that their turret guns can point backwards to defend against enemy fighters, and destroy the death star while Luke is still trying to figure out which button to press to arm his guns.
ESB: jedi do nothing. Luke spends the first third of the movie as a common soldier, and his duel with Vader has no galaxy-scale significance.
ROTJ: jedi do essentially nothing. The rebellion's conventional forces win the battle of Endor, and likely win even more easily without Luke giving away their presence. The sole jedi contribution is a single magic trick to impress the teddy bears and convince them to help, after which Luke disappears to go have his irrelevant confrontation with Vader and the Emperor (both of whom die anyway when Wedge and Lando blow up the death star). At best the jedi contribution is to keep Vader and the Emperor obsessed with their silly space wizard conflict instead of the battle outside and ensure that neither of them think about heading for an escape ship once the shield goes down.
TFA/TLJ: no jedi exist anymore. I'd say they "contribute" by creating the next Vader, but let's be honest here, if you remove him from the movies entirely things probably happen the same way.
So yeah, that's a whole lot of nothing done by the jedi. They don't save the galaxy, and they're barely more than figureheads. Meanwhile fallen jedi sure do a lot of damage.
And that’s a large part of the problem. They’re movies for 12 year olds. George Lucas said it himself. However, we look at them now with our adult mentality and we can pick all kinds of holes in all them them, but with our nostalgia glasses on, we give the silliness a get out of jail card
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Except that not what those paid critics say - "no no no, its a visionary subversion of the universe" - not its a fun flick for kids - there are plenty of those - few get held up some sort of cinematic gem with the plot, pacing and character problems that this pile of gak is rife with.
That’s a pretty strong accusation. Find me one critic who said “it’s a visionary subversion of the universe” and then give me proof they were paid by Lucasfilm to say it.
I certainly wouldn’t say TLJ was a “pile of gak”. As films for 12 year olds go, I quite enjoyed it. But then I, like everyone else who says they enjoyed it, was bribed by Disney to say that.
So yeah, that's a whole lot of nothing done by the jedi. They don't save the galaxy, and they're barely more than figureheads. Meanwhile fallen jedi sure do a lot of damage.
They certainly would be handy when the next Sith Lord pops up. As we've seen these happen whether the Jedi are around or not.
People like you keep saying this, but honestly the majority of "if you see problems with it you're a bigot" mentions have come from the anti-SJW crowd complaining about "some people" saying it. Many people have accurately pointed out that there has been sexist/racist/etc criticism of the movie, but I haven't seen anyone argue that criticizing it for, say, having poor pacing or plot holes means that you're stupid or a bigot.
Did you read the last thread? sebs whole "those are the reason you claim for not liking the movie, but those are not your real reasons" comes to mind. I was also told that I hate the actress who plays rose because I didn't like the casino scene.
speaking of links needed, show any sexist or racist criticism of the movie. There was none, the people "pointing it out" are saying those that didn't like it are bigots.
speaking of links needed, show any sexist or racist criticism of the movie. There was none, the people "pointing it out" are saying those that didn't like it are bigots.
SHILLS: "Beat Star Wars move EVER! Look at this approval! Anyone who hates this obviously has a problem with diversity. You wouldn't want to hate DIVERSITY, would you?"
CPT OBVIOUS: "Weird, your site is owned by Disney or you got an advanced viewing and perks. Says here that most people didn't like it, according to that same approval system for unpaid critics and regular people. They can't all be racist."
Adeptus Doritos wrote: They certainly would be handy when the next Sith Lord pops up. As we've seen these happen whether the Jedi are around or not.
Why? The previous sith lord was killed by a rebel commando force destroying the shield generator while a rebel navy fleet dealt with the imperial fleet and a rebel fighter squadron flew in and blew up the death star. It sure seems like conventional military forces are capable of beating the evil empire without needing other space wizards to do the job.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Careful, you'll get sand in your nose if you bury your head that deep.
So, straw man followed by condescending denial and refusal to acknowledge that you misrepresented your own link. You're certainly off to a good start here. Did you think I wouldn't actually read it and would just trust you that JJ Abrams said what you claimed?
Or else realised that to be the case after the fact, since TLJ is, in fact, a departure from the traditional Star Wars formula.
If you post on dakka expecting a response you're gonna have a bad time.
