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 Kilkrazy wrote:
Snoke obviously is a human whose features have been twisted and smeared by the power of the force to reveal his inner evil. This is a fairly common trope for evil villain characters.

It's fair. I mean if the emperor can become a sunken eyed grey putty man than the way snoke looks is surely acceptable.

 Lance845 wrote:

I take Reys raw power, which Luke has said hes only seen once before (referencing Ben) which means not even Vader had their raw power, to account for a lot.

Anakin ostensibly lost a lot of his power when he became more machine than man, and that's the only version that Luke knows. In TPM he's established as having even more raw power than Yoda, that's the whole point of the midi-chlorian scene.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Snoke obviously is a human whose features have been twisted and smeared by the power of the force to reveal his inner evil. This is a fairly common trope for evil villain characters.

Snoke was actually confirmed by both JJ and Rian to be an unknown alien.

 dogma wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

I take Reys raw power, which Luke has said hes only seen once before (referencing Ben) which means not even Vader had their raw power, to account for a lot.

Anakin ostensibly lost a lot of his power when he became more machine than man, and that's the only version that Luke knows. In TPM he's established as having even more raw power than Yoda, that's the whole point of the midi-chlorian scene.

Yeah, but Luke had seen and spent a bunch of time with Yoda. And he still thought Rey and Ben had more raw power then anyone he had ever seen. And Vader, while having a bunch of robot limbs, has always still been a crazy bad ass with the force. He can choke a person across the vast distances of space.

People assume he lost a lot of his power, but nothing ever actually says this. He just had to adjust his fighting style to match his new armor and weight. More of a tank than a cgi flip machine.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Snoke obviously is a human whose features have been twisted and smeared by the power of the force to reveal his inner evil. This is a fairly common trope for evil villain characters.

Snoke was actually confirmed by both JJ and Rian to be an unknown alien.

And they both said their films were great, so clearly author's intent is meaningless when it comes to analyzing Star Wars.

But okay, he's an alien. A really boring alien that looks like a tall, deformed human. Good job, star war.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Snoke obviously is a human whose features have been twisted and smeared by the power of the force to reveal his inner evil. This is a fairly common trope for evil villain characters.

Snoke was actually confirmed by both JJ and Rian to be an unknown alien.

I never guessed that from seeing the film. He looked like an evil, twisted man to me. To be honest, I don't think I've ever read anything written by JJ and Rian outside their film works.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Snoke obviously is a human whose features have been twisted and smeared by the power of the force to reveal his inner evil. This is a fairly common trope for evil villain characters.

Snoke was actually confirmed by both JJ and Rian to be an unknown alien.

And they both said their films were great, so clearly author's intent is meaningless when it comes to analyzing Star Wars.

But okay, he's an alien. A really boring alien that looks like a tall, deformed human. Good job, star war.

Well the novelizations and EU have been continually using this angle as well, so if somehow its subverted by the last film there's gonna be one hell of snarl. Also Star Wars has a variety of human aliens, so its not too unusual.

 dogma wrote:

The T-16 was also made by the same company, and Luke states they have similar controls.

So are the Volkswagen up! and the Bugatti Veyron, but I don't think someone who commutes to work regularly in an up! is going to fling the Veyronround the Nürburgring in under eight minutes.

OK, so the controls are similar - except, one assumes, those for the deflectors, astromech interface and weapon targeting systems. The handling will be massively different (the centre of mass, moments of inertia and the layout of the engines is different) and of course, he's flying the X-Wing IN SPACE! Basically, that line is to distract us from watching Luke use magic powers to somehow become the best pilot in Red Squadron.

Maybe the Death Star took a while to get to Yavin, and he got the chance to take the x wing out for a spin to get a feel for the controls.

Yeah, given how many civilian pilots have crashed flying ex-military aircraft in the real world I'm going to have to call Mary Sue on Luke's magic flying ability. He doesn't just manage to get the x-wing out and back without crashing, he out-dogfights trained Imperial pilots, pulls off a maneuver his veteran wingman considers too dangerous (and convinces his wingmen to follow him), gets command of the attack run and the key torpedo shot based entirely on family name recognition, evades Vader longer than anyone else, and nails an "impossible" torpedo shot (that even his veteran squadron leader couldn't make) with his targeting computer off because of space magic. It's pure Mary Sue-ism that Luke does these things instead of, say, Wedge. But nobody cares, because Luke is a beloved character in a good movie instead of a new character in a series a lot of people dislike.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yeah, given how many civilian pilots have crashed flying ex-military aircraft in the real world I'm going to have to call Mary Sue on Luke's magic flying ability. He doesn't just manage to get the x-wing out and back without crashing, he out-dogfights trained Imperial pilots, pulls off a maneuver his veteran wingman considers too dangerous (and convinces his wingmen to follow him), gets command of the attack run and the key torpedo shot based entirely on family name recognition, evades Vader longer than anyone else, and nails an "impossible" torpedo shot (that even his veteran squadron leader couldn't make) with his targeting computer off because of space magic. It's pure Mary Sue-ism that Luke does these things instead of, say, Wedge. But nobody cares, because Luke is a beloved character in a good movie instead of a new character in a series a lot of people dislike.

Nobody cares because it's not constantly rubbed in your face that Luke is good at everything in every way and needs no help from others except to teach him/herself that he/she doesn't actually need anyone else.

Luke's journey is one of growth through failure, that he happens to be good at flying doesn't make him a Mary Sue because it's only one facet of his character.

I find Rey an unlikeable hero because of a distinct lack of flaws and character struggles. She's the sort of hero that makes me barrack for the bad guys.

Luke can fly well because he's the hero.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Luke can fly well because he's the hero.

Rey can do things well because she's the hero.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Nobody cares because it's not constantly rubbed in your face that Luke is good at everything in every way and needs no help from others except to teach him/herself that he/she doesn't actually need anyone else.

Yep, clearly the character sent to beg Luke for help, who admits that she desperately needs him and only leaves because she finally accepts that she has failed, needs no help from others and is good at everything already.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yeah, given how many civilian pilots have crashed flying ex-military aircraft in the real world I'm going to have to call Mary Sue on Luke's magic flying ability. He doesn't just manage to get the x-wing out and back without crashing, he out-dogfights trained Imperial pilots, pulls off a maneuver his veteran wingman considers too dangerous (and convinces his wingmen to follow him), gets command of the attack run and the key torpedo shot based entirely on family name recognition, evades Vader longer than anyone else, and nails an "impossible" torpedo shot (that even his veteran squadron leader couldn't make) with his targeting computer off because of space magic. It's pure Mary Sue-ism that Luke does these things instead of, say, Wedge. But nobody cares, because Luke is a beloved character in a good movie instead of a new character in a series a lot of people dislike.

Luke is not a very good X-wing pilot. He almost crashes into the Death Star and can't shake a Tie. They also do not let him take the first crack at it, as Red Leader does. Red Leader also lasts as long as or longer than Luke.

However, I have not watched it in a long time.... but Luke is not the best pilot in Red Squadron. There are plenty of other better pilots. However, they do not have the Force.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Luke can fly well because he's the hero.

Rey can do things well because she's the hero.

Thing is, flying is the only "Protagonist Power" Luke displays. Everything else he kinda sucks at in A New Hope, and needs constant rescuing.

Rey does everything well because she is the protagonist.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Rey does everything well because she is the protagonist.

Except when she screws up and lets the monsters out (remember that pointless and stupid scene?), goes off alone and gets captured, has to beg Luke to come back and help her because she can't do it herself, etc. Even our first impression of Rey is weakness, having to scavenge for junk just to avoid starving to death and take whatever pitiful amount of food is offered in return.

TBH the problem with Rey is less that she never fails and more that TFA has awful pacing problems and never stops to allow any of its plot/character ideas to develop. Rey fails, but you probably forgot about it because the movie rushes straight to the next CGI spectacle (probably involving her succeeding, because success makes a good spectacle).

Yeah but if she hadn't let the monsters out they wouldn't have killed and eaten the gangsters that were going to kill them and Han.

She manages to turn the interrogation mentally back on Kylo and learns to Jedi Mind Trick soldiers at the same time as well... Which goes wonderfully with what you said, she was captured for all of five minutes, makes Kylo look incompetent and easily free's herself.

Yeah, compare Luke to Rey:

Luke gets beaten up by Tusken Raiders and barflies and has to be rescued twice by Obi-Wan. Rey however beats up several goons and a supposedly trained soldier as well.

Luke needs Han to fly them off planet (although he does claim he could do it himself if he had a ship). Rey however flies herself off planet.

Luke needs a demonstration of the Mind Trick and training to deal with a training remote. Rey however jumps straight to mind tricking and light sabering off the bat.

Luke wasn’t the best pilot in the squadron, although he did have the force (and it’s my opinion but I think obi wan was helping out in that regard too). Rey however was straight to telling Han ways to improve the Falcon if I recall correctly.

Long story short, Luke needed help to get from being the naive farm boy getting beaten up to the Jedi Knight slaughtering his way through heavily armed gangsters. Rey did it all herself and was a lot more uninteresting for it.

She also throws out a hurried afterthought “and drop your blaster” with Obi-wan like mastery

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Rey however was straight to telling Han ways to improve the Falcon if I recall correctly.

Not exactly. Rey tells Han that someone has installed a system on the Falcon which was done after Han lost it. Han and Rey both have the same thought about the installed system and deduce that it is the cause of the issues, once the system is revealed to have been installed.

Also, Han has never been shown as particularly skilled when it comes to knowing what is wrong with the Falcon in the films. The Falcon is an extremely temperamental ship, bodged together out of countless parts over countless years.

Pretty much the whole of ESB was Han trying and failing to fix the Falcon's hyperdrive and the only reason he knew what was wrong was because C3PO could understand the language the hyperdrive computer was programmed in.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Luke can fly well because he's the hero.

He can fly well because back home, he used to bullseye womp rats in his T-16.

BertBert wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Luke can fly well because he's the hero.

He can fly well because back home, he used to bullseye womp rats in his T-16.

Something skilled starfighter pilots considered impossible.

Luke's performance at Yavin is acceptable because a foundation for it has been built up over the course of the film. When we meet Luke, we know he dreams of going to the academy. We learn that his father was one of the best pilots ever. We hear him boast to Han that he would fly a starship to Alderaan. We see Obi-Wan teach him how seemingly impossible things are possible through the Force. We see him shoot down TIE fighters in the Falcon. We see him show hope in the briefing, citing his exploits tooling around in his Skyhopper back home. We hear Vader explain, while trying to get a lock on him, that he is strong in the Force. And of course we hear Ob-Wan's disembodied voice telling Luke to use the Force.

By contrast, we meet Rey and the moment she needs to fight she is able to simultaneously defeat several attackers who are larger than her. The moment she needs to pilot a starship she pulls off amazing, risky stunts. The moment she needs to use the Force, she not only can but can overpower a trained Force user.

Now none of this is necessarily wrong, in terms of narrative structure. When you show someone being a badass when there is no reason for them to be a badass, you are saying to the audience - there is something very important about this character that you don't know about yet and the reveal will be a big deal. Maybe that reveal is coming in Episode IX. But it was a severe mistake to carry on, and in some ways even expand on how powerful she is, without delivering on the promise of explanation implied in the format of the characterization.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yeah but if she hadn't let the monsters out they wouldn't have killed and eaten the gangsters that were going to kill them and Han.

She manages to turn the interrogation mentally back on Kylo and learns to Jedi Mind Trick soldiers at the same time as well... Which goes wonderfully with what you said, she was captured for all of five minutes, makes Kylo look incompetent and easily free's herself.

The creatures were also going to eat Finn.

To quote Madame de Pompadour "A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction. Oh, Doctor, my lonely Doctor..."

Kylo looks incompetent because he is incompetent in TFA. He doesn't start to really control anything until he kills his Father.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:


By contrast, we meet Rey and the moment she needs to fight she is able to simultaneously defeat several attackers who are larger than her. The moment she needs to pilot a starship she pulls off amazing, risky stunts. The moment she needs to use the Force, she not only can but can overpower a trained Force user.

I would imagine any woman on Jakku incapable of defeating several attackers are wearing gold bikinis and chained to chairs.

This may be a bit off the wall, but maybe The Force is fed up with idiots like Luke, Vader and Obi Wan fething everything up thanks to the principle of hereditary power and established structures, and has tapped Rey with a massive amount of Force power to enable her to break the mould of galactic policy which resulted only in decades of stagnation, poverty, and war.

In this scenario the almost total destruction of the Rebellion and almost total triumph of the New Order is an essential precursor to the creation of a new system of the world in which the downtrodden will rise up, overthrow the elite nobles and dictatorial government, and establish a golden age.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This may be a bit off the wall, but maybe The Force is fed up with idiots like Luke, Vader and Obi Wan fething everything up thanks to the principle of hereditary power and established structures, and has tapped Rey with a massive amount of Force power to enable her to break the mould of galactic policy which resulted only in decades of stagnation, poverty, and war.

In this scenario the almost total destruction of the Rebellion and almost total triumph of the New Order is an essential precursor to the creation of a new system of the world in which the downtrodden will rise up, overthrow the elite nobles and dictatorial government, and establish a golden age.

I don't agree that the Force is a being capable of willing anything. But assuming it is, nothing that Rey has done so far actually serves the purpose you describe.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I would imagine any woman on Jakku incapable of defeating several attackers are wearing gold bikinis and chained to chairs.

I get the joke but this is pretty clearly not the case. While cleaning up her salvage, Rey stares at an older woman working near her. Nima Oupost is not too dangerous for a granny to eke out a living there.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This may be a bit off the wall, but maybe The Force is fed up with idiots like Luke, Vader and Obi Wan fething everything up thanks to the principle of hereditary power and established structures, and has tapped Rey with a massive amount of Force power to enable her to break the mould of galactic policy which resulted only in decades of stagnation, poverty, and war.

In this scenario the almost total destruction of the Rebellion and almost total triumph of the New Order is an essential precursor to the creation of a new system of the world in which the downtrodden will rise up, overthrow the elite nobles and dictatorial government, and establish a golden age.

Oh no! Now we are going to have to start discussing the possible sentience of the Force!

 Manchu wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I would imagine any woman on Jakku incapable of defeating several attackers are wearing gold bikinis and chained to chairs.

I get the joke but this is pretty clearly not the case. While cleaning up her salvage, Rey stares at an older woman working near her. Nima Oupost is not too dangerous for a granny to eke out a living there.

We don't know the older woman's history. Maybe the out post is safe, maybe she was a slave, maybe she's dangerous, maybe all three.

 Easy E wrote:

Oh no! Now we are going ot have to sstart discussing the possibel sentience of the Force!

I mean, it takes GREAT pleasure in guiding people toward horrible deaths and disfigurements. Yoda seems to be the only one wise enough to realize that the only time the Force gives you advice is to try and get you killed and warns anyone he can to completely ignore anything it says.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I would imagine any woman on Jakku incapable of defeating several attackers are wearing gold bikinis and chained to chairs.

I get the joke but this is pretty clearly not the case. While cleaning up her salvage, Rey stares at an older woman working near her. Nima Oupost is not too dangerous for a granny to eke out a living there.

We don't know the older woman's history. Maybe the out post is safe, maybe she was a slave, maybe she's dangerous, maybe all three.

By the same token, we don't have enough info about Nima Outpost or Jakku to conclude that women living there would normally be capable of defeating multiple attackers.