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Is Rey the protagonist of TFA? How about TLJ? In both cases, it seems like she should be. But she is more of a tantalizing puzzle than a fully-realized character in the former. And in TLJ she seems like a springboard for backfilling Luke and Ben's relationship, rather than driving her own story. Rey is likable thanks to Daisy Ridley's performance but the scripts both really let the character down. I can forgive TFA because after all it was the set up episode. There is no excuse for TLJ's misuse of this character, however; nor of its egregious misuse of Poe and Finn.

 Manchu wrote:
Is Rey the protagonist of TFA? How about TLJ? In both cases, it seems like she should be. But she is more of a tantalizing puzzle than a fully-realized character in the former. And in TLJ she seems like a springboard for backfilling Luke and Ben's relationship, rather than driving her own story. Rey is likable thanks to Daisy Ridley's performance but the scripts both really let the character down. I can forgive TFA because after all it was the set up episode. There is no excuse for TLJ's misuse of this character, however; nor of its egregious misuse of Poe and Finn.

Yeah TFA was a good setup, and then TLJ failed to really offer much meaningful character development for it's characters. I'm not even sure what there is left to look forward to in the next movie. Snoke died, in a rather anticlimatic and lame way. Ben still kind of sucks as a villain. I'm not even sure why they brought Phasma back just to kill her in such a lame fashion, it's just a waste of screen time. I have no idea how JJ is going to cobble together a satisfactory conclusion to the trilogy, can't even say I believe he can.

And the part where rose slams finns speeder and then kisses him was some cheese. That got some real eye rolls and I don't know...just shock at the absurdity of what was unfolding on screen. if JJ is smart he'll kill that character off screen in the time lapse between the two films.

I am not sure what a conclusion to this trilogy would be at this point, much less a satisfactory one. The job of the middle installment is to escalate the action and nail down the conflicts to be resolved in the final installment and TLJ flat out fails at that.

 Manchu wrote:
I am not sure what a conclusion to this trilogy would be at this point, much less a satisfactory one. The job of the middle installment is to escalate the action and nail down the conflicts to be resolved in the final installment and TLJ flat out fails at that.

Conclusion to Star Wars? This now belongs to a company that made 'Aladdin 3'. They'll ride this thing until the movies are straight to Blu-Ray or Streaming.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Except that there is a massive power gap between Luke and Rey. In fact, there is a massive power gap between Rey/Kylo and everyone else we have ever seen on film. It's flat out stated in the movies. I said this before, Rey and Kylos power level is like Starkiller from Force Unleashed. Their raw power is so great that given direction it pretty much takes care of most of the work for them. It's not a matter of them ding anything with any kind of finesse. Without training they couldn't build a wall out of a bunch of rocks. But with their raw power they might just pull a star destroyer out of the sky and smash it into a city.

Let me ask you- are you honestly confusing 'powerful' and 'good story'? Because it is certainly seeming like that's the case. You can talk about 'power level' all you want, all day long. But at no point is ''awssum powurr" good storytelling or a coherent plot or even the foundations of a good character. It's not 'storytelling', it's not a character, it's a list of abilities. That 'awssum powurr" is worth nothing without a story- otherwise it's amatuer.

That 'massive power gap' is what bothers people. There's no explanation for it, and it's absurd. Suddently two nobodies with scant training show up and are 'Force Gods'? No, this is one more example of someone confusing 'awssum powurr' with 'good character'. It's Dragonball heroics.

I never said her power is what made her a good character. I said her power is what explains why she can do the things she does in the same way that Kylo could do things we have never seen anyone else do as well.

You are free to dislike the character. You are free to dislike the story. But if your reason for disliking both is that Rey does things that Luke couldn't when there are lines in the movie that flat out tell you she and Kylo are a tier above then thats just you ignoring an entire plot point for the character for the sake of your dislike. People have argued poor pacing. I can see it. I don't debate it. But Rey being capable? We have seen in stroy elements that support all the reasons she can do the things she does.

 Lance845 wrote:
I never said her power is what made her a good character. I said her power is what explains why she can do the things she does in the same way that Kylo could do things we have never seen anyone else do as well.

Sure, she can do things Luke can't do (other than generate facial expressions). For NO REASON. It's like suddenly, in the Lord of the Rings saga, a 14 year old super-wizard shows up and starts crushing mountains with a word and just hurls Sauron's Eye into the sun. It. Is. Bad. Writing.

 Lance845 wrote:
You are free to dislike the character. You are free to dislike the story. But if your reason for disliking both is that Rey does things that Luke couldn't when there are lines in the movie that flat out tell you she and Kylo are a tier above then thats just you ignoring an entire plot point for the character for the sake of your dislike. People have argued poor pacing. I can see it. I don't debate it. But Rey being capable? We have seen in stroy elements that support all the reasons she can do the things she does.

"They have great powurr" is not a 'plot'. Absolutely nothing supports what she does, she just -does it- and we're expected to nod and say, "okay". That's NOT a story, any more than a series of fart noises from a Porg explains Snoke.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I never said her power is what made her a good character. I said her power is what explains why she can do the things she does in the same way that Kylo could do things we have never seen anyone else do as well.

Sure, she can do things Luke can't do (other than generate facial expressions). For NO REASON. It's like suddenly, in the Lord of the Rings saga, a 14 year old super-wizard shows up and starts crushing mountains with a word and just hurls Sauron's Eye into the sun. It. Is. Bad. Writing.

 Lance845 wrote:
You are free to dislike the character. You are free to dislike the story. But if your reason for disliking both is that Rey does things that Luke couldn't when there are lines in the movie that flat out tell you she and Kylo are a tier above then thats just you ignoring an entire plot point for the character for the sake of your dislike. People have argued poor pacing. I can see it. I don't debate it. But Rey being capable? We have seen in stroy elements that support all the reasons she can do the things she does.

"They have great powurr" is not a 'plot'. Absolutely nothing supports what she does, she just -does it- and we're expected to nod and say, "okay". That's NOT a story, any more than a series of fart noises from a Porg explains Snoke.

So again, Batman is the most intelligent person on the planet despite others having modified intellects as meta humans or other such nonsense "For NO REASON". Why is that ok?

People having a natural talent is just a thing that exists in both the real world and fictional worlds. Both Kylo and Rey have more Raw power then anyone that has been seen to date. Is Kylo equally bad writing? I haven't seen you talk about him yet?

Rey was raised in a place where she needed to know how to fight to survive. Luke wasn't. Rey was technologically inclined because she needed those skills to survive as a scavenger. Rey built a flight simulator and trained on it.

Besides all this, we have seen that as much as the force is just a passive thing that exists as part of the fabric of the SW world it's also something that seems to have at least a sub conscious will. If we are REALLY going to believe that Anakin is a force jesus then the force can bring people about "For NO REASON" with extreme amounts of power to serve a purpose. Right now the galaxy has been trapped in an endless cycle of tipping back and forth between the light and the dark. Kylo and Rey could very well be the answer to cycle. To finally break it. We don't know yet. Their story isn't done. Would you have considered it better writing if somebody decided to do a 5 minute exposition on a prophecy or theory that implied that?

 Lance845 wrote:

So again, Batman is the most intelligent person on the planet despite others having modified intellects as meta humans or other such nonsense "For NO REASON". Why is that ok?

Because he didn't sit around being a dumbass. He studied the criminal mind, engineering, chemistry, etc. That's kind of a thing, 'learning'.

You obviously don't understand this. And your attachment to this character is making me uncomfortable. Trying to get you to understand is a lost cause, and I'm probably better off talking to someone who understands these concepts.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

So again, Batman is the most intelligent person on the planet despite others having modified intellects as meta humans or other such nonsense "For NO REASON". Why is that ok?

Because he didn't sit around being a dumbass. He studied the criminal mind, engineering, chemistry, etc. That's kind of a thing, 'learning'.

You obviously don't understand this. And your attachment to this character is making me uncomfortable. Trying to get you to understand is a lost cause, and I'm probably better off talking to someone who understands these concepts.

You seem to have difficulty understanding the difference between learned skills and base line intelligence. I wasn't saying Batman didn't earn his skills through years (though extremely few years considering the amount of skills he mastered - I.E. see his incredible baseline intellect) I said he was the most INTELLIGENT person on the planet. If this was a DnD character, we are not talking about his knowledge and profession skills. We are talking about his Intelligence attribute. Do you get it yet?

Your singling out of this character is telling. What about Kylo?

 Lance845 wrote:
Your singling out of this character is telling. What about Kylo?

Here we go. Go ahead, say I 'hate women' or something and throw a tantrum. I get it, you think you're a good person because you like this 'strong female lead' (that's an embarrassment to all all strong female leads in the history of science fiction).

Kylo's also a lousy character, but at least he had training to explain his abilities.

Also Batman isn't the smartest person on the planet. I don't think you know enough about that comic to have a valid opinion to use as an example. Batman is intelligent because he pursued subjects and learned as much about them as possible. 'Intelligence' isn't something you just manifest like a superpower. People who learn things study hard and take the time, idiots are generally just lazy people who don't want to learn. Bruce Wayne didn't 'think real hard with superbrain' and know how to profile criminals. He studied, trained, and learned. That's how 'a hero's journey' works, unless you're writing a lazy Mary Sue in Star Wars.

You STILL don't realize "They has powurz just because!" isn't good storytelling, character-building, etc. It's Dragonball writing- writing that has an overwhelming appeal to children and people who don't think too much about what they're looking at. Flashy, fun to watch, but by no means intelligent or creative in the least bit.

If a Guardsman in 40k suddenly manifested Psyker abilities beyond that of anyone short of the Emperor or Magnus, snagged up a power sword he'd never trained with, and struck down a greater daemon that was throwing around Grey Knights- you'd call B.S. unless there was SOMETHING to explain it. Otherwise, the lore would be stupidly inconsistent.

I actually thought Rey was one of the few good things in TLJ. She is not an especially great female character but compared to the rest she is a flawless creation.

Its still laughable to me that anyone holds the female characters in TLJ as anything good or even "subversive" considering how much better pretty much any other film this year has had - even Geostorm had much better one as the Secret Service agent and that was not a great film, better than TLJ but not great.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I actually thought Rey was one of the few good things in TLJ. She is not an especially great female character but compared to the rest she is a flawless creation.

Well, they're all turds. She's just the straightest one without chunks of corn or peanuts in it.

Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Your singling out of this character is telling. What about Kylo?

Here we go. Go ahead, say I 'hate women' or something and throw a tantrum. I get it, you think you're a good person because you like this 'strong female lead' (that's an embarrassment to all all strong female leads in the history of science fiction).

Kylo's also a lousy character, but at least he had training to explain his abilities.

I think you hate a lot of things and I have yet to "throw a tantrum" unlike some others. I like good characters in general. I don't particularly care what gender they are. I also don't go into SW movies expecting particularly great characters. It's never had them.

Training doesn't explain Kylos abilities. Yoda could never stop a blaster bolt in mid air. He's had some 900 years of training.

Also Batman isn't the smartest person on the planet. I don't think you know enough about that comic to have a valid opinion to use as an example. Batman is intelligent because he pursued subjects and learned as much about them as possible. 'Intelligence' isn't something you just manifest like a superpower. People who learn things study hard and take the time, idiots are generally just lazy people who don't want to learn. Bruce Wayne didn't 'think real hard with superbrain' and know how to profile criminals. He studied, trained, and learned. That's how 'a hero's journey' works, unless you're writing a lazy Mary Sue in Star Wars.

Ok. So you actually DON'T understand the difference between learned skills and natural aptitude. Good to know going forward.

You STILL don't realize "They has powurz just because!" isn't good storytelling, character-building, etc. It's Dragonball writing- writing that has an overwhelming appeal to children and people who don't think too much about what they're looking at. Flashy, fun to watch, but by no means intelligent or creative in the least bit.

And yet, it's what starwars has always been. Also, "appeal to children" is something SW is designed to do.

If a Guardsman in 40k suddenly manifested Psyker abilities beyond that of anyone short of the Emperor or Magnus, snagged up a power sword he'd never trained with, and struck down a greater daemon that was throwing around Grey Knights- you'd call B.S. unless there was SOMETHING to explain it. Otherwise, the lore would be stupidly inconsistent.

I hate to break it to you, but 40ks lore is stupidly inconsistent in a great many ways with a lot of super shallow characters who have incredible amounts of power for no good reason.

Mr Morden wrote:I actually thought Rey was one of the few good things in TLJ. She is not an especially great female character but compared to the rest she is a flawless creation.

Its still laughable to me that anyone holds the female characters in TLJ as anything good or even "subversive" considering how much better pretty much any other film this year has had - even Geostorm had much better one as the Secret Service agent and that was not a great film, better than TLJ but not great.

I don't at all understand the "subversive" thing myself. I didn't find anything in either SW film "subversive". It just was what it was. Every character has been more or less as dumb as every character has always been in SW.

Haven't seen Geostorm yet. I plan on redboxing it.

Training doesn't explain Kylos abilities. Yoda could never stop a blaster bolt in mid air. He's had some 900 years of training.

Actually considering how Kylo doesn't display any other abilities besides your basic Jedi set, though he's got a bit of dominating minds, and stunning with telekinetic.. He may have trained exclusively in telekinetic or had a natural talent in those powers which would allow him some extra tricks not many else show.

Really, Kylo's power set is incredibly basic beyond those few extra powers, relying near exclusively on holding people with the force, blocking ranged attacks with his saber and his power, and stabbing people to death. So it's quite possibly he never really trained outward.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Maybe the Death Star took a while to get to Yavin, and he got the chance to take the x wing out for a spin to get a feel for the controls.

Or they used flash training methods, like the Republic used for their clones and Rey used? to learn Wookiee and Droid.

Ah, there you go then! Combine that with the natural talent to fly that he’s said to have and that explains it, sort of.

About that jump Luke goes through, from blocking a remote to retrieving a light sabre...it’s entirely conjecture on my part but I think Obi Wan still spoke to him enough to get him through the basics.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I never said her power is what made her a good character. I said her power is what explains why she can do the things she does in the same way that Kylo could do things we have never seen anyone else do as well.

Sure, she can do things Luke can't do (other than generate facial expressions). For NO REASON. It's like suddenly, in the Lord of the Rings saga, a 14 year old super-wizard shows up and starts crushing mountains with a word and just hurls Sauron's Eye into the sun. It. Is. Bad. Writing.

 Lance845 wrote:
You are free to dislike the character. You are free to dislike the story. But if your reason for disliking both is that Rey does things that Luke couldn't when there are lines in the movie that flat out tell you she and Kylo are a tier above then thats just you ignoring an entire plot point for the character for the sake of your dislike. People have argued poor pacing. I can see it. I don't debate it. But Rey being capable? We have seen in stroy elements that support all the reasons she can do the things she does.

"They have great powurr" is not a 'plot'. Absolutely nothing supports what she does, she just -does it- and we're expected to nod and say, "okay". That's NOT a story, any more than a series of fart noises from a Porg explains Snoke.

So again, Batman is the most intelligent person on the planet despite others having modified intellects as meta humans or other such nonsense "For NO REASON". Why is that ok?

People having a natural talent is just a thing that exists in both the real world and fictional worlds. Both Kylo and Rey have more Raw power then anyone that has been seen to date. Is Kylo equally bad writing? I haven't seen you talk about him yet?

Rey was raised in a place where she needed to know how to fight to survive. Luke wasn't. Rey was technologically inclined because she needed those skills to survive as a scavenger. Rey built a flight simulator and trained on it.

Besides all this, we have seen that as much as the force is just a passive thing that exists as part of the fabric of the SW world it's also something that seems to have at least a sub conscious will. If we are REALLY going to believe that Anakin is a force jesus then the force can bring people about "For NO REASON" with extreme amounts of power to serve a purpose. Right now the galaxy has been trapped in an endless cycle of tipping back and forth between the light and the dark. Kylo and Rey could very well be the answer to cycle. To finally break it. We don't know yet. Their story isn't done. Would you have considered it better writing if somebody decided to do a 5 minute exposition on a prophecy or theory that implied that?

Kylo gets the bad guy bonus, all bad guys are more powerful than the good guys, that's what makes their ultimate defeat feel rewarding and it's the basis for all epics & sagas. There's no epic tales of a god smiting a worm. When the worm is stronger than gods just because, and for no stated reason, that makes the worm a marry sue, it's bad story telling and makes an unbelievable and unrelatable character.

Kylo has a backstory that explains his level of power, rey does not, even anikin needed training, he had a good 10 years in jedi school. At this point in the movies, kylo needs a training montage just to catch up to ray.

how does she know what modifications have been done and linage of the falcon, yet not know it's name? If you think batman is a sue because of his intelligence, then you must concede that rey is as well. she just builds a flight simulator and knows exactly where a component is and how to bypass it? That's not technically inclined, that's batman levels of smarts. And batman is not that smart, most of his toys are stolen R&D from his company with a bat symbol painted on it. He trained his whole life in combat styles, rey who spent most of her time scrapping wouldn't have had that time, nor training. good with tech, sure, good at everything? that's sue's territory.

we don't need a 5 minute exposition on the force, but all good stories have forshadowing of things to come, TLJ doesn't. after 2 movies we should be able to deduce some of the plot points in the 3rd movie, all good stories do this, TLJ doesn't.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Training doesn't explain Kylos abilities. Yoda could never stop a blaster bolt in mid air. He's had some 900 years of training.

He may have trained exclusively in telekinetic or had a natural talent in those powers which would allow him some extra tricks not many else show.

Really, Kylo's power set is incredibly basic beyond those few extra powers, relying near exclusively on holding people with the force, blocking ranged attacks with his saber and his power, and stabbing people to death. So it's quite possibly he never really trained outward.

Right. That was my argument. Kylo has a massive natural talent. Kylo has some training so his raw power is more directed then Rey. If Rey were to turn her power towards stopping that bolt I wouldn't be surprised if it also smashed a bunch of gak around her in the process. A lot like how Kylo could have pulled a single object to knock out Luke but instead he tore down an entire (small) building,

Training alone doesn't account for what we see from Kylo. And training alone isn't the answer to what we see from Rey.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Spoiler:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I never said her power is what made her a good character. I said her power is what explains why she can do the things she does in the same way that Kylo could do things we have never seen anyone else do as well.

Sure, she can do things Luke can't do (other than generate facial expressions). For NO REASON. It's like suddenly, in the Lord of the Rings saga, a 14 year old super-wizard shows up and starts crushing mountains with a word and just hurls Sauron's Eye into the sun. It. Is. Bad. Writing.

 Lance845 wrote:
You are free to dislike the character. You are free to dislike the story. But if your reason for disliking both is that Rey does things that Luke couldn't when there are lines in the movie that flat out tell you she and Kylo are a tier above then thats just you ignoring an entire plot point for the character for the sake of your dislike. People have argued poor pacing. I can see it. I don't debate it. But Rey being capable? We have seen in stroy elements that support all the reasons she can do the things she does.

"They have great powurr" is not a 'plot'. Absolutely nothing supports what she does, she just -does it- and we're expected to nod and say, "okay". That's NOT a story, any more than a series of fart noises from a Porg explains Snoke.

So again, Batman is the most intelligent person on the planet despite others having modified intellects as meta humans or other such nonsense "For NO REASON". Why is that ok?

People having a natural talent is just a thing that exists in both the real world and fictional worlds. Both Kylo and Rey have more Raw power then anyone that has been seen to date. Is Kylo equally bad writing? I haven't seen you talk about him yet?

Rey was raised in a place where she needed to know how to fight to survive. Luke wasn't. Rey was technologically inclined because she needed those skills to survive as a scavenger. Rey built a flight simulator and trained on it.

Besides all this, we have seen that as much as the force is just a passive thing that exists as part of the fabric of the SW world it's also something that seems to have at least a sub conscious will. If we are REALLY going to believe that Anakin is a force jesus then the force can bring people about "For NO REASON" with extreme amounts of power to serve a purpose. Right now the galaxy has been trapped in an endless cycle of tipping back and forth between the light and the dark. Kylo and Rey could very well be the answer to cycle. To finally break it. We don't know yet. Their story isn't done. Would you have considered it better writing if somebody decided to do a 5 minute exposition on a prophecy or theory that implied that?

Kylo gets the bad guy bonus, all bad guys are more powerful than the good guys, that's what makes their ultimate defeat feel rewarding and it's the basis for all epics & sagas. There's no epic tales of a god smiting a worm. When the worm is stronger than gods just because, and for no stated reason, that makes the worm a marry sue, it's bad story telling and makes an unbelievable and unrelatable character.

Kylo has a backstory that explains his level of power, rey does not, even anikin needed training, he had a good 10 years in jedi school. At this point in the movies, kylo needs a training montage just to catch up to ray.

how does she know what modifications have been done and linage of the falcon, yet not know it's name? If you think batman is a sue because of his intelligence, then you must concede that rey is as well. she just builds a flight simulator and knows exactly where a component is and how to bypass it? That's not technically inclined, that's batman levels of smarts. And batman is not that smart, most of his toys are stolen R&D from his company with a bat symbol painted on it. He trained his whole life in combat styles, rey who spent most of her time scrapping wouldn't have had that time, nor training. good with tech, sure, good at everything? that's sue's territory.

we don't need a 5 minute exposition on the force, but all good stories have forshadowing of things to come, TLJ doesn't. after 2 movies we should be able to deduce some of the plot points in the 3rd movie, all good stories do this, TLJ doesn't.

My point is I don't think Batmans a sue. I don't think a Mary Sue in it's modern definition exists. If YOU think Rey is a Sue then you need to turn that on everyone else in fiction. Comic Batman is smart. Dark Knight movie Batman is an idiot who steals things from his companies R&D. I am talking comic batman who outsmarts comic lex lurther, gorllia grodd, an entire race of intersteller conquering aliens, the new gods, etc etc etc...

Based on TLJ I think it's likely that Rey and Kylos relationship comes to head. They go some place leaving the galactic battle crap alone and they foam a new Not Jedi/ Not Sith order thats about the balance instead of the light or the dark. I think it's pretty wel forshadowed in TLJ that the systems for raising force users we have seen and the galaxy has had for thousands and thousands of years don't work and these 2 don't believe in them because they are seeing their failings first hand.

It’s funny how so many people are experts in how made up space magic works

Maybe it’s like X-Men mutations, with each powerful Force user exhibiting different super (sorry, I mean Force) powers?

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
It’s funny how so many people are experts in how made up space magic works

Maybe it’s like X-Men mutations, with each powerful Force user exhibiting different super (sorry, I mean Force) powers?

No form of SW media has ever shown a division in force powers other than choke/lightning variations being specific to the Dark Side and there being a few esoteric abilities limited to individuals, ie Windu's Shatterpoint and Bastila's Battle Meditation.

The nature of space magic is just a red herring. What actually matters is narrative structure. Introducing an important character who is inexplicably powerful (there are two in TFA: Rey and Snoke) implies that her or his power is a mystery that will be addressed as the story unfolds. TFA sets up the shot and TLJ fails to score.

The Batman example is terrible. Batman is not some incredible genius. He is well within the range of normal human intelligence. He has acquired detective skills through training and experience. This is the exact opposite of Rey.

 trexmeyer wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
It’s funny how so many people are experts in how made up space magic works

Maybe it’s like X-Men mutations, with each powerful Force user exhibiting different super (sorry, I mean Force) powers?

No form of SW media has ever shown a division in force powers other than choke/lightning variations being specific to the Dark Side and there being a few esoteric abilities limited to individuals, ie Windu's Shatterpoint and Bastila's Battle Meditation.

Given the explanation behind Force Lightning being "weaponized hate" It's certainly a good reason why we don't see most Jedi use it (Not barring the EU's weird Emerald Lightning Plo koon used)

 Manchu wrote:
The nature of space magic is just a red herring. What actually matters is narrative structure. Introducing an important character who is inexplicably powerful (there are two in TFA: Rey and Snoke) implies that her or his power is a mystery that will be addressed as the story unfolds. TFA sets up the shot and TLJ fails to score.

It's not as if their strength is explicably stated. Snoke clearly trumps Kylo and Rey, but is exceedingly arrogant. Kylo has an edge on Rey. We have no idea where Luke stands since he has no feats outside of projection in the sequels. Though, I'd assume it's intended to be Snoke > Luke > Kylo > Rey and Rey's potential is a balancing act to counteract Kylo Ren.

i don't follow your point.

The issue is not how they rank on a Marvel-esque power level score. What rankles is that there is no accounting for their power. Put another way, we want to know who these characters are. And the official answer ("It doesn't matter") is lazy and boring and disappointing.

 Manchu wrote:
i don't follow your point.

The issue is not how they rank on a Marvel-esque power level score. What rankles is that there is no accounting for their power. Put another way, we want to know who these characters are. And the official answer ("It doesn't matter") is lazy and boring and disappointing.

Lazy and boring and disappointing ... and probably true.

The story of how the Emperor became the Emperor and how Dark Vader got his high tech samurai helmet actually made me like Star Wars less, not more. But then, I personally think Star Wars jumped the shark when it turned out everyone had to be related to someone. The idea that Rey is just some abandoned kid with massive innate talent and that Snoke isn’t actually an important character to the story, was actually quite the refreshing point in an otherwise forgettable film.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 trexmeyer wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
It’s funny how so many people are experts in how made up space magic works

Maybe it’s like X-Men mutations, with each powerful Force user exhibiting different super (sorry, I mean Force) powers?

No form of SW media has ever shown a division in force powers other than choke/lightning variations being specific to the Dark Side and there being a few esoteric abilities limited to individuals, ie Windu's Shatterpoint and Bastila's Battle Meditation.

So, no force user has ever had a unique power, except the two you’ve named? Is it s problem then if two exceptions becomes three exceptions? What’s the maximum number of exceptions allowed per galaxy?

Personally I don’t know what a Windu Shatterpoint or a Bastila is though. I don’t remember seeing them in any of the movies I’ve watched.

 Lance845 wrote:

And yet, it's what starwars has always been. Also, "appeal to children" is something SW is designed to do.

As I can tell, it does exactly that.

Anyway, you still don't understand 'they just have powurr' is not 'plot'. Good luck defending your turd heap.

Bastila is from Knights of the Old Republic. Battle Meditation is basically a skill where a single person can use the force to guide the course of a battle.


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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

And yet, it's what starwars has always been. Also, "appeal to children" is something SW is designed to do.

As I can tell, it does exactly that.

Anyway, you still don't understand 'they just have powurr' is not 'plot'. Good luck defending your turd heap.

They have power for the same reason Anakin had power.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
They have power for the same reason Anakin had power.

They were conceived through the Force and prophesied to be the Chosen ones? I must have missed that somewhere between snot monster milk tits and fat Asian chick scowl.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
They have power for the same reason Anakin had power.

They were conceived through the Force and prophesied to be the Chosen ones? I must have missed that somewhere between snot monster milk tits and fat Asian chick scowl.

Are you actually saying that, conceived through the force and prophesied to be the chosen one, is better writing than, they’re just really good at the force? If you are, I’m going to have to totally disagree.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

And yet, it's what starwars has always been. Also, "appeal to children" is something SW is designed to do.

As I can tell, it does exactly that.

Anyway, you still don't understand 'they just have powurr' is not 'plot'. Good luck defending your turd heap.

I ever argued "They just have powurr" I argued that if the force can make a Jesus then the force can empower others to break the cycle the galaxy has been entrenched in. I also argued that natural aptitude is a part of being a person.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
They have power for the same reason Anakin had power.

They were conceived through the Force and prophesied to be the Chosen ones? I must have missed that somewhere between snot monster milk tits and fat Asian chick scowl.

Are you actually saying that, conceived through the force and prophesied to be the chosen one, is better writing than, they’re just really good at the force? If you are, I’m going to have to totally disagree.

He certainly seems to be!

But more correctly, hes arguing that if someone on screen doesn't sit there and spell it out for you by telling you that the force may have empowered them then it's bad writing to have the viewership assume that a thing we have literally seen happen before (the force be an active entity) is an impossible explanation and just bad writing.