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So if something makes a lot of money on its opening weekend, it's good.
Certainly by the studio's metric. It's show business, not show fun.
But in this case I was referring to Black Panther, in response to "Disney is running the SW/MCU into the ground". It's the 3rd biggest movie domestically of all time, and did so while getting a 97% on rotten tomatoes. While TLJ didn't do as well as expectations, that probably has a lot to do with that it didn't get a full release in China, which is a huge blow in 2018. Despite that it also got 1.3 billion worldwide and a 91% on rotten tomatoes. There is no objective metric that meets your assertion.
There is one on that very site you are quoting and which you ignored - only 46% of the real audiance {not paid critics?) liked it with an average ratingof 2.9 out of 5. Compare that to Black Panther with 79% of people liking it. Big difference.
I don't conside Iflm crtics in any way objective and certainly no more so than any other person, if anything they are much less so.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/20 21:29:17
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
ZebioLizard2 wrote: No critic wants to be the one who doesn't get to do an early bird review of a big blockbuster movie.
Ohh no - don;t say that about critics - they are perfect and uncorruptable guardians as well as the only true judge of a films worth.
or not.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Lance845 wrote: I think its fair to say that the chosen one is a bull crap prophecy. Vader didnt bring balance to anything.
Well, except for overthrowing the dominant Dark Side, and in himself, managing to bring balance to the forces inside himself.
You can say it's bullgak all you like, but as I see it, it's more valid than starfighters being able to hyperspace ram themselves into other ships and more valid than whatever Rey's powers are.
We only have shmees word for his virgin birth (also there is a hilarious fan theory about watto being his dad. In summary, shmee has no skills. She cant cook she doesnt clean, so what kind of slave is she? Sex slave. Look at her down cast embarassed eyes when she says anakin is a virgin birth. How does watto get around? He skywalks.), and people are born powerful in the force all the time without any lineage to support it.
Sorry, but that fan theory is just that - a fan theory. Not canon, and if we're looking at skills, what skills does Ani have that Shmi doesn't also have? We don't see her doing any kind of slave stuff, but then, we don't see her doing anything that suggests the her being a sex slave either (see Leia in ROTJ). We have to accept that she is a slave, and just does odd jobs, I assume.
Also, yeah, we only have Shmi's word he is. But we also only have word that Han Solo made the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs. Not proof. We only have word that Kylo Ren killed Luke's students. In fact, we only have his word that he even went there.
We accept that it is, because it makes the most sense.
There is no reason rey couldnt be power naturally. Could we use more explanation? I guess. But i feel like thats just minutes of exposition we dont actually REALLY need.
On the contrary, it's exactly needed. I have no problem with it being natural power, but there's been no precedent for natural power on her scale. Luke himself says that she is apparently one of the most powerful force users he's seen in his whole life - better than Yoda, Palpatine, and presumably Vader. That's not just something natural.
I just want an explanation beyond "because the plot says we need to have a strong independant woman do it". Is that the reason they have Rey specifically? I wouldn't be surprised, but that's fine. All I want is an explanation for this, and quite a lot of other things, beyond "the plot says so and because we need to milk Star Wars".
Because despite lukes and hans flaws everything works out for them because of those flaws. Yeah han gets caught. To no il effect. The only movies that strip him of his mary suedom are. The new ones.
Han gets caught and frozen in carbonite for what - two years? If not for the actions and agency of his friends, he'd still be a wall decoration. Not his own actions, and therefore not a Mary Sue.
The yoda wanting leia stuff is true. Its canon. I posted links. Look it up.
I saw those links, and they don't hold up with what we see in ROTS. Let's think about this logically - how could Yoda have known Luke was impulsive, reckless, and the "inferior" twin when he'd never met him, barring when he was a newborn?
ROTS Yoda outright tells Kenobi to train Luke - he does nothing of the same for Leia.
It's the same kind of canon the new trilogy is - inconsistent with what we already know.
They/them
2018/05/20 21:38:15
Subject: Re:Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered?
Mr Morden wrote: Ohh no - don;t say that about critics - they are perfect and uncorruptable guardians as well as the only true judge of a films worth.
or not.
Well, now you're being silly
How about if we agree that critics have a vested interest in protecting their access and having their quotes used in publicity, because that's self evident. But we also have to agree that user reviews can get bandwagonned, botted, etc for reasons other than to do with a film's merits or lacks thereof. Look at the book reviews for any political figure - an enormous amount of 1 star and 5 star reviews from people who likely haven't bought or read the book in question. Look at Ghostbusters (2016) - universally agreed to not be a good movie, but it's the most thumbed down video in the history of Youtube, a platform which hosts videos of animal abuse, nazi propaganda,. torture, and Logan Paul.
I don't know a good way to determine objectively if a movie is "good". You can't use box office alone, because then it skews to garbage like Transformers movies. You can't use RT alone because it has the issues above. You can't use award shows because they're a bunch of elitists who scratch each others backs. So how do you measure a film as being "good"? The best I know is the gauge some measure of all 3.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/20 21:42:55
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2018/05/20 21:42:11
Subject: Re:Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered?
How about if we agree that critics have a vested interest in protecting their access, because that's self evident. But we also have to agree that user reviews can get bandwagonned, botted, etc for reasons other than to do with a film's merits or lacks thereof. Look at the book reviews for any political figure - an enormous amount of 1 star and 5 star reviews from people who likely haven't bought or read the book in question.
I have zero interest or respect in what film critics say. I have seen too many good film written off by so called objective and independant critics to do so.
I decide if i want to see a film based on the trailer and maybe what friends think - but we donlt always agree so thats unreliable.
Similar with books.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I don't use critics as an end-all litmus test to if I will see a movie or not but it's handy for movies I am on the fence on. If there is a movie I kinda want to see but it hits 40% or below aggregate I am definitely much less likely to.
I too would say I give more weight to the opinions of friends and family who have demonstrated a similar taste in movies.
I definitely can't rely on trailers, I don't think. I've been burned and badly, by trailers that totally misrepresent the movie, like The Fountain, and movies that straight up show things in the trailer that do not occur in the movie (Paranormal Activity series).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/20 21:46:12
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Lance845 wrote: One of the big key components of a mary sue is that their flaws are actually strengths and everyone loves them because they are the best.
Yes. See also: Rey.
Lance845 wrote: Han solo is exactly that. He gets the girl. He takes out the galaxies "most feared bounty hunter" while blind. He gets rich. He marries a princess. He wins all the things.
Wrong. He gets captured. He's abraisive. He's weakened at multiple points. His marriage falls apart.
Lance845 wrote: Luke blew up the death star with no force training.
Being guided by Obi-Wan. He had much more training than Rey did before she was throwing tricks around.
Reflexes and actual force powers are not the same thing.
Lance845 wrote: Luke has always been gak in a fight. Hes also always just been gak. Officially, yoda did not want to train him. He wanted leia. Leia had talent. Luke was crap. Thats the real story of sw.
What parody are you watching?
Lance845 wrote: Rey, like leia, has talent. Luke, has moping and worrying until someone kicks him in the ass to get him to actually do anything.
This is some kind of bizarro troll-post, isn't it? You cannot genuinely think this and be able to count past ten with your shoes on.
I think you need some more experience with fiction. Good heroes do not just show up with all the power and win without any trials and tribulations, struggles, and failures.
A hero is someone who overcomes the odds, not someone who shows up with a list of abilities and wins.
You seriously need to quit insulting other posters on a thread about sci find movies.
Lance845 wrote: You give yourself WAY too much credit. You dont insult me. Again, you amuse me. Your ignorance and especially your self assurance in your ignorance is and endless font of joy for me.
I like how you do this while crying like a spanked child about people insulting you.
And yes, I made you outright butt-hurt. That is literally your only argument. Just as soon as any argument you have is debunked, you go back to whinging.
Reported.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/20 22:19:26
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2018/06/06 22:26:07
Subject: Re:Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered?
Kilkrazy wrote: There are some people who were perfectly happy with part 2, and some other people who thought it was terrible.
It's not clear why, as the exact same scenes, dialogue and so on were watched by both sets of people.
It's entirely clear why. One group of people consists of fans of Star Wars who watched the Star Wars films and, to one degree or another, liked them, liked the basic formula they use, and came out of the first main-saga Disney film in the franchise having been given the perfectly reasonable expectation by that film that Disney intended to continue the main-saga films in the tradition they enjoyed(even if they had issues with the actual execution of how those expectations were created, ie it leaned too heavily on rote "look at this you know! haha! you know thing, how cool" nostalgia beats). Then went to TLJ, and got to watch a feature-length "subversive" deconstruction of the thing they liked and paid to see, and which is in the opinion of many a lot less clever than it clearly thinks it is.
The other consists of non-fans, the seven people on the planet outside of China who'd never experienced Star Wars before in any form, children so young that they consider the pinnacle of cinematic achievement the beeping sounds and bright colours of BB-8, and of Star Wars fans who watched the Star Wars films and, to one degree or another, liked them, but were bored of the basic formula and wanted the Disney films to signal a departure from it.
The latter group got exactly what they wished for and so overlook the evident and manifold flaws in the film often to the point of becoming defensive(or resorting to the "secret misogynists" nonsense) when those flaws are pointed out. The former group had their expectations dashed in a very deliberate way and so notice every single flaw even to the point of being a bit unfair over some of the really minor ones that they'd otherwise just move past.
So, basically, Lucasfilm shat the bed twice over - first by bringing in a guy who's so nostalgic over Star Wars that he tried to turn Star Trek into it to restart the main-saga films, and also by adopting a "hands off" director-driven policy and bringing in a self-regarding "auteur" director to do the second part of the trilogy who promptly threw all the existing work out the window and did his own very deliberately marmite thing. If they intended the new trilogy to be a postmodernist deconstruction of the whole property, it should have been that from minute one, film one of the new trilogy, and if they didn't then they should have either had a competent Feige-type figure in charge with the power to wrangle the directors, or they should have taken more care over which directors they hired for each project.
For my money, TFA was too nostalgia driven and suffered from JJ's trademark total lack of regard for pacing or buildup in favour of simply instructing that a thing will happen, constructing a scene in which the thing happens, and then having the actors perform the thing happening, regardless of whether it makes much sense in context or whether the emotions it's attempting to evoke have actually been "earned" in prior scenes, but it was Star Wars to its very core. TLJ was in every regard the opposite but with the dial turned up to eleven, and personally I don't enjoy having my expectations subverted by content creators who've taken one too many arthouse indie classes at film school, I'm perfectly capable of seeking out new and varied narrative experiences on my own recognisance, and when I go to see a Star Wars movie then that's what I want & expect to see, so I found the whole thing pretty insufferable. Can it be salvaged? I don't see how. People like to bring up ESB, but apart from them both being the middle film in a trilogy they have little in common, the biggest difference being that ESB was a Star Wars movie, not a deconstruction of a Star Wars movie - it was darker than ANH in tone, certainly, but the story never tried to make you question if the Empire are actually the baddies afterall, or if the Jedi were just as bad as the Sith really in their own way, or set out to purposefully subvert audience expectations. It had a big twist, but that's not actually the same thing.
Even if the third film turns out to be spectacular and pivots back to just being a Star Wars movie again without falling entirely into the nostalgia trap that dragged down TFA, TLJ will always be the Phantom Menace of the sequels for me, the one I don't bother to watch again if I ever go back to it because it doesn't really add anything to the whole.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2197/11/18 22:35:00
Subject: Re:Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered?
Its unfair to place everyone into your 2 very narrow camps.
I watched the old starwars. I enjoy them as movies. I hated the prequels, even at the time when everyone was near universally lieing to each other and themselves about just how terrible they were.
The new ones are enjoyable for me. Not any better or worse than 2/3rds of the ot. I think there is a fairly large group who shares that thought. Considering more than 7 people gave it good reviews.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/20 23:23:17
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Just wish they had done something a bit cooler for ships in TLJ.. If they hadn't had Kylo shot up the hanger bay early on we could've gotten at least maybe a cool dogfighting scene between Poe and Kylo in the Silencer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/20 22:39:36
2018/05/20 22:57:11
Subject: Re:Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered?
Also, stop criticizing the people who liked it fot getting defensive if your every post about disliking the movie is going to include broad generalizations and attacks on the people who enjoyed it.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
I actually read the link Lance shared about Yoda’s feelings about training Leia. The story was written by some nobody. I find it laughable that some guy out of nowhere asks to write a story (probably with Disney’s permission) and decide this, and guys like Lance take it as gospel. If Lucas comes out in an interview and says “I really wanted Yoda to wish for Leia to train, but having to go with Luke and it being more of taking a chance and risk, etc etc”...I’ll accept it. But some guy coming around 40 years later and making a decision like that? Even sanctioned by The Mouse? Hell no. At this point though, Lance is trolling us. It’s the only rational possibility.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
Lance845 wrote: I am sure TLJ ill sell tons of the new bomber ships and and tie fighters with extra rockets on them as soon as they get around to making them. There really haven't been any toys made of any of the new stuff yet. So ANOTHER Rey/Finn that looks just like the last movie? Yep. Didn't sell super well.
The Lego version of the bomber goes for ~100 USD on Amazon, and it's not even a particularly cool design; basically a fat B-Wing.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
timetowaste85 wrote: I actually read the link Lance shared about Yoda’s feelings about training Leia. The story was written by some nobody. I find it laughable that some guy out of nowhere asks to write a story (probably with Disney’s permission) and decide this, and guys like Lance take it as gospel. If Lucas comes out in an interview and says “I really wanted Yoda to wish for Leia to train, but having to go with Luke and it being more of taking a chance and risk, etc etc”...I’ll accept it. But some guy coming around 40 years later and making a decision like that? Even sanctioned by The Mouse? Hell no. At this point though, Lance is trolling us. It’s the only rational possibility.
I understand you don't like it. I understand you don't accept it. It's fine. You can ignore it if you want. But It IS sanctioned by the Mouse and it IS part of the official story now. So like it or not, Yoda didn't want Luke. It's eluded to in the movies well enough. Yoda makes every excuse talking to ghost Obi about not training Luke until he resigns himself to it. And then Luke ignores him, runs off, gets his hand chopped off in a fight hes not ready for.
timetowaste85 wrote: I actually read the link Lance shared about Yoda’s feelings about training Leia. The story was written by some nobody. I find it laughable that some guy out of nowhere asks to write a story (probably with Disney’s permission) and decide this, and guys like Lance take it as gospel. If Lucas comes out in an interview and says “I really wanted Yoda to wish for Leia to train, but having to go with Luke and it being more of taking a chance and risk, etc etc”...I’ll accept it. But some guy coming around 40 years later and making a decision like that? Even sanctioned by The Mouse? Hell no. At this point though, Lance is trolling us. It’s the only rational possibility.
I understand you don't like it. I understand you don't accept it. It's fine. You can ignore it if you want. But It IS sanctioned by the Mouse and it IS part of the official story now. So like it or not, Yoda didn't want Luke. It's eluded to in the movies well enough. Yoda makes every excuse talking to ghost Obi about not training Luke until he resigns himself to it. And then Luke ignores him, runs off, gets his hand chopped off in a fight hes not ready for.
Yeah, Lance ignored me when I tried to engage him on one of his (many, many) points about the sequel trilogy whilst having plenty of time and energy to trade barbs with that dorito fellow.
He's arguing concurrently that Luke is both a mary sue and unwanted, uninteresting, and incapable.
He also thinks Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past even though he spends rather a lot of screen time hanging on a wall for falling on the wrong side of a gangster's good will so....
idk.
2018/05/20 23:45:44
Subject: Re:Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered?
Lance845 wrote: Its unfair to place everyone into your 2 very narrow camps.
I watched the old starwars. I enjoy them as movies. I hated the prequels, even at the time when everyone was near universally lieing to each other and themselves about just how terrible they were.
The new ones are enjoyable for me. Not any better or worse than 2/3rds of the ot. I think there is a fairly large group who shares that thought. Considering more than 7 people gave it good reviews.
Indeed.
I grew up with the original trilogy. I enjoyed the prequels, even with their flaws, and I've enjoyed all of Disney's offerings to date.
Yes, they're not perfect, or exactly what I expected. That shouldn't get in the way of enjoying them as what they are, which is fantasy with space ships.
2018/05/20 23:53:00
Subject: Re:Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered?
Lance845 wrote: Also, stop criticizing the people who liked it fot getting defensive if your every post about disliking the movie is going to include broad generalizations and attacks on the people who enjoyed it.
The fact you're reading a wee joke as some monstrous assault on your dignity rather disagrees with you eh.
Lance845 wrote: Its unfair to place everyone into your 2 very narrow camps.
I watched the old starwars. I enjoy them as movies. I hated the prequels, even at the time when everyone was near universally lieing to each other and themselves about just how terrible they were.
The new ones are enjoyable for me. Not any better or worse than 2/3rds of the ot. I think there is a fairly large group who shares that thought. Considering more than 7 people gave it good reviews.
Indeed.
I grew up with the original trilogy. I enjoyed the prequels, even with their flaws, and I've enjoyed all of Disney's offerings to date.
Yes, they're not perfect, or exactly what I expected. That shouldn't get in the way of enjoying them as what they are, which is fantasy with space ships.
So in other words, you could be considered a Star Wars fan who watched the Star Wars films and, to one degree or another, liked them, but were bored of the basic formula and wanted the Disney films to signal a departure from it Or else realised that to be the case after the fact, since TLJ is, in fact, a departure from the traditional Star Wars formula.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/20 23:55:09
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
timetowaste85 wrote: I actually read the link Lance shared about Yoda’s feelings about training Leia. The story was written by some nobody. I find it laughable that some guy out of nowhere asks to write a story (probably with Disney’s permission) and decide this, and guys like Lance take it as gospel. If Lucas comes out in an interview and says “I really wanted Yoda to wish for Leia to train, but having to go with Luke and it being more of taking a chance and risk, etc etc”...I’ll accept it. But some guy coming around 40 years later and making a decision like that? Even sanctioned by The Mouse? Hell no. At this point though, Lance is trolling us. It’s the only rational possibility.
I understand you don't like it. I understand you don't accept it. It's fine. You can ignore it if you want. But It IS sanctioned by the Mouse and it IS part of the official story now. So like it or not, Yoda didn't want Luke. It's eluded to in the movies well enough. Yoda makes every excuse talking to ghost Obi about not training Luke until he resigns himself to it. And then Luke ignores him, runs off, gets his hand chopped off in a fight hes not ready for.
Revenge of the Sith, however, shows that such a thought leap for Yoda would be illogical.
Gunna have to explain this one more. I have seen that movie once. I remember very little of it.
Scrabb wrote:Yeah, Lance ignored me when I tried to engage him on one of his (many, many) points about the sequel trilogy whilst having plenty of time and energy to trade barbs with that dorito fellow.
He's arguing concurrently that Luke is both a mary sue and unwanted, uninteresting, and incapable.
He also thinks Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past even though he spends rather a lot of screen time hanging on a wall for falling on the wrong side of a gangster's good will so....
idk.
Sorry you fealt ignored. I likely just missed it in my trading barbs with the dorito fellow. That was a lot of fun for me.
Lukes big strength isn't his fighting ability or his power with the force. He's not super exceptional with either. It's his conviction. He almost looses his gak and starts to go dark giving in to his anger and hate when he takes off vaders arm in RotJ. What makes Luke great is that he then goes right back, throws his lightsaber away and is willing to die right then and there instead of turning. Lukes REAL greatness as a character is his conviction.
That being said, hes equally at fault for all the things people peg on Rey. He learns force powers as he needs them. He's a flat cardboard person in ANH and most of Empire. And until the prequels told us about the prophecy he was just some guy who was strong in the force for no reason. But hey, it's all ok back then and bad now. Why?
Also Han was supposed to die at the end of Empire. Fords contract was up and it was the ending he wanted. His part in RotJ was added due to the characters popularity. And no, Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past. Because he didn't learn anything from it. 30 years later hes in another ship being the same kind of criminal.
Yodhrin wrote:
Lance845 wrote: Also, stop criticizing the people who liked it fot getting defensive if your every post about disliking the movie is going to include broad generalizations and attacks on the people who enjoyed it.
The fact you're reading a wee joke as some monstrous assault on your dignity rather disagrees with you eh.
Im not reading anything as anything. Many of the people on here who dislike the movie have a habit of slinging insults at those who enjoyed it by talking down to/about them but ALWAYS with the criticism of how those who "liked" the movie are some SJWs getting all defensive and accusing you of hating women or whatever for disliking the movie. If you don't like the movie criticize the movie. Not the people who disagree with you.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/21 00:26:52
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
timetowaste85 wrote: I actually read the link Lance shared about Yoda’s feelings about training Leia. The story was written by some nobody. I find it laughable that some guy out of nowhere asks to write a story (probably with Disney’s permission) and decide this, and guys like Lance take it as gospel. If Lucas comes out in an interview and says “I really wanted Yoda to wish for Leia to train, but having to go with Luke and it being more of taking a chance and risk, etc etc”...I’ll accept it. But some guy coming around 40 years later and making a decision like that? Even sanctioned by The Mouse? Hell no. At this point though, Lance is trolling us. It’s the only rational possibility.
I understand you don't like it. I understand you don't accept it. It's fine. You can ignore it if you want. But It IS sanctioned by the Mouse and it IS part of the official story now. So like it or not, Yoda didn't want Luke. It's eluded to in the movies well enough. Yoda makes every excuse talking to ghost Obi about not training Luke until he resigns himself to it. And then Luke ignores him, runs off, gets his hand chopped off in a fight hes not ready for.
Revenge of the Sith, however, shows that such a thought leap for Yoda would be illogical.
Gunna have to explain this one more. I have seen that movie once. I remember very little of it.
Essentially, Yoda has both children under his influence, with the choice to pick and choose out of either, and sends Leia away with Bail Organa, a non-Force user and politician. He gives Luke to Kenobi with the orders to watch over him from afar.
Note that Kenobi is a force user, and Organa is not. If Yoda wanted Leia so badly, why wouldn't have have given her to Kenobi, where she will actually be trained by a Jedi?
It also ignores the fact that how did Yoda know which one he preferred if he hadn't encountered them since they were newborns.
Scrabb wrote:Yeah, Lance ignored me when I tried to engage him on one of his (many, many) points about the sequel trilogy whilst having plenty of time and energy to trade barbs with that dorito fellow.
He's arguing concurrently that Luke is both a mary sue and unwanted, uninteresting, and incapable.
He also thinks Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past even though he spends rather a lot of screen time hanging on a wall for falling on the wrong side of a gangster's good will so....
idk.
Sorry you fealt ignored. I likely just missed it in my trading barbs with the dorito fellow. That was a lot of fun for me.
Lukes big strength isn't his fighting ability or his power with the force. He's not super exceptional with either. It's his conviction. He almost looses his gak and starts to go dark giving in to his anger and hate when he takes off vaders arm in RotJ. What makes Luke great is that he then goes right back, throws his lightsaber away and is willing to die right then and there instead of turning. Lukes REAL greatness as a character is his conviction.
Which is why he ISN'T a Mary Sue. He is tempted, he even falls from grace, he gives in to the Dark Side (which has been his weakness throughout - his recklessness and impulsiveness) - and yet he has a moment of realisation, and that is character growth. He changes as a character, he overcomes a very real, and very strong weakness of his character. And considering that character flaw is dealt with at the climax of the story, it is narratively acceptable and not narrative-breaking.
You've literally explained how he ISN'T a Mary Sue.
That being said, hes equally at fault for all the things people peg on Rey. He learns force powers as he needs them. He's a flat cardboard person in ANH and most of Empire. And until the prequels told us about the prophecy he was just some guy who was strong in the force for no reason. But hey, it's all ok back then and bad now. Why?
He' far from flat cardboard. Cliche for the time, yes. The wide-eyed youth with shaggy hair and experiencing a lot of the world for the first time is a common trope. However, his sense of awe and wonder at nearly everything is perfect for us, the audience to imprint on him. When we first meet him, we know his goals and understand them relatably. He wants more than his life with his adoptive parents - the dream of growing up. When things happen to him, and his aunt and uncle are killed, we see that with him, and we empathise with something we see ourselves.
With Rey, she's also wide eyed and naive, but she seems to adapt to nearly every new thing instantly. Not only that, but the catalyst for her adventuring is something we don't even see - her parents. We do not get the same reaction to that due to the fact we're told it - not shown it. Showing is far more effective than telling in media.
Thing is, we can't say he's "strong with the force for no reason" because we've never seen another Force user, aside from Kenobi (who is the mentor archetype and uses it sparingly), and so didn't know even if he was strong in the force. The only people who tell him he is are Vader, and Palpatine - who are the most powerful force users we see - and by this time, we're not far off the reveal that Vader is Luke's father - and considering we've already seen Vader's force skills, it being hereditary is a strong assumption to make.
Yes, the prequels retroactively fix it. The same can't be said at the current moment for Rey. I've seen nothing so far that explains it well in the context of the established universe.
Also Han was supposed to die at the end of Empire. Fords contract was up and it was the ending he wanted. His part in RotJ was added due to the characters popularity. And no, Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past. Because he didn't learn anything from it. 30 years later hes in another ship being the same kind of criminal.
Not supposed to - potentially. They left it open, just in case he decided he wanted in, and he did. If it was a simple case of killing, they could have done any other manner of things.
Han has suffered for it - it's why Boba Fett hunted him down in the first place - because Jabba wanted his head. His smuggling made him suffer, and after that he goes all out in the Battle of Endor. Before this, he hasn't done a massive amount. He considers leaving at the start of ESB (I think), and stays because of Leia, essentially, and is then frozen. After that, he goes all out rebel leader.
The 30 years later is an issue with the new trilogy many people have. It's largely due to the nostalgia reason - people knew Han as the scoundrel smuggler - where he ends in ROTJ is as a rebel war hero. Apparently, that's not okay. If we are to accept though that the sequels have it right, we still see him losing a helluva lot - his relationship, his child, one of his best friends, and his position in the military, and turns to smuggling because it's all he has left to do. We already see how contrived the New Republic's military (or lack thereof) is - him staying on as a general is unlikely.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/21 00:42:58
timetowaste85 wrote: I actually read the link Lance shared about Yoda’s feelings about training Leia. The story was written by some nobody. I find it laughable that some guy out of nowhere asks to write a story (probably with Disney’s permission) and decide this, and guys like Lance take it as gospel. If Lucas comes out in an interview and says “I really wanted Yoda to wish for Leia to train, but having to go with Luke and it being more of taking a chance and risk, etc etc”...I’ll accept it. But some guy coming around 40 years later and making a decision like that? Even sanctioned by The Mouse? Hell no. At this point though, Lance is trolling us. It’s the only rational possibility.
I understand you don't like it. I understand you don't accept it. It's fine. You can ignore it if you want. But It IS sanctioned by the Mouse and it IS part of the official story now. So like it or not, Yoda didn't want Luke. It's eluded to in the movies well enough. Yoda makes every excuse talking to ghost Obi about not training Luke until he resigns himself to it. And then Luke ignores him, runs off, gets his hand chopped off in a fight hes not ready for.
Revenge of the Sith, however, shows that such a thought leap for Yoda would be illogical.
Gunna have to explain this one more. I have seen that movie once. I remember very little of it.
Essentially, Yoda has both children under his influence, with the choice to pick and choose out of either, and sends Leia away with Bail Organa, a non-Force user and politician. He gives Luke to Kenobi with the orders to watch over him from afar.
Note that Kenobi is a force user, and Organa is not. If Yoda wanted Leia so badly, why wouldn't have have given her to Kenobi, where she will actually be trained by a Jedi?
It also ignores the fact that how did Yoda know which one he preferred if he hadn't encountered them since they were newborns.
So to the first part, Leia would be much safer with the Organas then the Skywalkers. Since it would be easy enough for Vader to find Skywalkers if he wanted to. And even worse Obi Wan was hiding out near them going by Old Ben Kenobi dressed in his Jedi robes.
To the second, there is this fan theory.
Chewbacca and R2D2: Secret Rebel Agents
R2 manages to not have his memory deleted (like 3PO does) at the end of Episode III and becomes the perfect poker-faced spy. When Episode IV starts, Leia doesn't have the secret plans, R2 does. She just sends along a message to Obi Wan. Things go awry when the Empire gets in the way, so R2 gets in the escape pod knowing he can get down to Tatooine and Obi Wan. Originally the plan was to pick him up on the way to Alderaan, possibly with Luke in tow, who Obi Wan has been watching over for 20 years - its in the book, folks. 3PO is the one hesitating to get into the escape pod, but R2 knows they've gotta do it to get to Obi Wan.
They land, and R2 purposefully gets captured by the Jawas and negotiates with them to take them to Obi Wan. The Jawas only agree to take them to the Skywalker farm, because there's Sandpeople near Kenobi. R2/3PO are purchased by Luke & Owen/Beru Lars, and as soon as he can R2 heads off toward Kenobi's. Upon discovering R2/3PO/Luke being attacked, Kenobi calls R2 "my little friend", which he is, they've known eachother since Episode I. He says "I don't seem to remember ever owning any droid" as a signal to R2 to shut up around Luke. Before bailing to Tatooine, but after being intercepted by the Empire, R2 dispatched a signal to his fellow super spy Chewbacca that said something along the lines of "Uhh, we might need a ride to Alderaan, can you pick us up at Mos Eisley?" Meanwhile, Chewbacca gets the message and makes a "mistake" forcing Han to dump his cargo and high-tail it to Tatooine, which gets them there on time to pickup R2/3PO/ObiWan/Luke.
Chewbacca really runs the whole smuggling thing, not Han. Han's just a pilot, and in fact the Falcon's not his ship, its really Chewies (thats why it makes the above cameo in Episode III, see the tiny ship just off the edge at the bottom?). Chewie sets up the deals and Han haggles the price, giving Chewie free reign to pick where they go, which lets him deliver Rebellion intelligence anywhere in the galaxy at ease under his cover. This is exactly what happens in Mos Eisley, Chewie and R2 and Obi Wan know what's going on, but Han, Luke and 3PO are along for the ride.
Think about that scene in Mos Eisley. Obi Wan walks right up to Chewbacca before 3PO and R2 are even thrown out of the cantina. That was fast, eh? So they all head to Alderaan, its not there, they sneak onto the Death Star, and when R2 finds out Leia is there Chewie helps convince Han to go along with Luke's rescue plan. Then as they escape, Obi Wan is forced to sacrifice himself as a distraction, leaving Chewie and R2 (and Yoda) the only characters alive that know about Luke, Leia and Vader's family tree. Chewie sees Luke and Leia feel drawn to each other, and realizes thats just wrong... just wrong, and so he plays incest-cop and shoves Han at Leia. When they get to Yavin, Chewie agrees to bail with Han because if Yavin is destroyed he'd be the only one who could try to salvage the Rebellion and find Yoda. Apparently Yoda has been communicating with Obi Wan through the ghost of Qui Gon Jin, but since Obi Wan's dead now, their only link to Yoda is Luke (who Ben can ghost-chat with). And since Bail Organa got blown up by the Death Star on Alderaan, things are looking pretty grim. R2 has the Death Star plans they need to take thing down, not Leia. Then Han changes his mind, Chewie is thrilled to go back and fight, and they save the day.
If you notice in the medal scene, Chewie is not medaled, he turned it down because he got one from Yoda like 20 years ago, but he can't really mention that, now can he? So now the leaders are all gone or out of contact (Yoda) and Leia, the daughter of Vader, is in charge.
If True, Yoda had been getting messages about the progress on both kids all along and would have been making his choice.
Spoiler:
Scrabb wrote:Yeah, Lance ignored me when I tried to engage him on one of his (many, many) points about the sequel trilogy whilst having plenty of time and energy to trade barbs with that dorito fellow.
He's arguing concurrently that Luke is both a mary sue and unwanted, uninteresting, and incapable.
He also thinks Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past even though he spends rather a lot of screen time hanging on a wall for falling on the wrong side of a gangster's good will so....
idk.
Sorry you fealt ignored. I likely just missed it in my trading barbs with the dorito fellow. That was a lot of fun for me.
Lukes big strength isn't his fighting ability or his power with the force. He's not super exceptional with either. It's his conviction. He almost looses his gak and starts to go dark giving in to his anger and hate when he takes off vaders arm in RotJ. What makes Luke great is that he then goes right back, throws his lightsaber away and is willing to die right then and there instead of turning. Lukes REAL greatness as a character is his conviction.
Which is why he ISN'T a Mary Sue. He is tempted, he even falls from grace, he gives in to the Dark Side (which has been his weakness throughout - his recklessness and impulsiveness) - and yet he has a moment of realisation, and that is character growth. He changes as a character, he overcomes a very real, and very strong weakness of his character. And considering that character flaw is dealt with at the climax of the story, it is narratively acceptable and not narrative-breaking.
You've literally explained how he ISN'T a Mary Sue.
I mostly believe that the whole Mary Sue thing just doesn't exist. I am arguing that iIF Rey is a Mary Sue the so is everyone else of any consequence in SW. You cannot give everyone else a pass for having the same things.
That being said, hes equally at fault for all the things people peg on Rey. He learns force powers as he needs them. He's a flat cardboard person in ANH and most of Empire. And until the prequels told us about the prophecy he was just some guy who was strong in the force for no reason. But hey, it's all ok back then and bad now. Why?
He' far from flat cardboard. Cliche for the time, yes. The wide-eyed youth with shaggy hair and experiencing a lot of the world for the first time is a common trope. However, his sense of awe and wonder at nearly everything is perfect for us, the audience to imprint on him. When we first meet him, we know his goals and understand them relatably. He wants more than his life with his adoptive parents - the dream of growing up. When things happen to him, and his aunt and uncle are killed, we see that with him, and we empathise with something we see ourselves.
With Rey, she's also wide eyed and naive, but she seems to adapt to nearly every new thing instantly. Not only that, but the catalyst for her adventuring is something we don't even see - her parents. We do not get the same reaction to that due to the fact we're told it - not shown it. Showing is far more effective than telling in media.
Thing is, we can't say he's "strong with the force for no reason" because we've never seen another Force user, aside from Kenobi (who is the mentor archetype and uses it sparingly), and so didn't know even if he was strong in the force. The only people who tell him he is are Vader, and Palpatine - who are the most powerful force users we see - and by this time, we're not far off the reveal that Vader is Luke's father - and considering we've already seen Vader's force skills, it being hereditary is a strong assumption to make.
Yes, the prequels retroactively fix it. The same can't be said at the current moment for Rey. I've seen nothing so far that explains it well in the context of the established universe.
Luke was raised as a farmer. Rey was raised as a scavenger. Being raised in her circumstances afords her a degree of 1) ability to fight to fend for herself that luke didn't need and 2) adaptability to make the most of the gak situation she was in every day. People who come from real nothing where their every meal is a hard won battle SHOULD be adaptable.
Vader being Lukes father was also not the original plan. You can 100% be sure that if vader was lukes father and leia his sister then luke and leia would not have kissed. ALSO there is a story called Splinter of the Minds eye which was the proposed sequal if SW bombed. It's vastly different and doesn't have Vader being lukes dad. These things were done more or less on the fly in as the movies were being made. You cannot attribute all this planning to it because it simply wasn't planned that far in advance.
The thing that establishes it is the final shot of TLJ. When a small kid uses force pull to put the broom in his hand. Anyone can be powerful in the force. It doesn't have to come from anywhere. We are following exceptional people in the movie because exceptional people are interesting.
Also Han was supposed to die at the end of Empire. Fords contract was up and it was the ending he wanted. His part in RotJ was added due to the characters popularity. And no, Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past. Because he didn't learn anything from it. 30 years later hes in another ship being the same kind of criminal.
Not supposed to - potentially. They left it open, just in case he decided he wanted in, and he did. If it was a simple case of killing, they could have done any other manner of things.
Han has suffered for it - it's why Boba Fett hunted him down in the first place - because Jabba wanted his head. His smuggling made him suffer, and after that he goes all out in the Battle of Endor. Before this, he hasn't done a massive amount. He considers leaving at the start of ESB (I think), and stays because of Leia, essentially, and is then frozen. After that, he goes all out rebel leader.
The 30 years later is an issue with the new trilogy many people have. It's largely due to the nostalgia reason - people knew Han as the scoundrel smuggler - where he ends in ROTJ is as a rebel war hero. Apparently, that's not okay.
If we are to accept though that the sequels have it right, we still see him losing a helluva lot - his relationship, his child, one of his best friends, and his position in the military, and turns to smuggling because it's all he has left to do. We already see how contrived the New Republic's military (or lack thereof) is - him staying on as a general is unlikely.
Acording to the story, Mon Mothma disbands the new republics military because it doesn't want to hold worlds under a unified military force like the empire did. She tries to return it to the way it was in the Republic before Palpatine makes his clone army. They are demilitarized. Which is why the resistance is so poorly outfitted and has so little in the way of resources and trained fighters. The first Order comes out of nowhere and takes them all by surprise.
You are worried about how all this crap is happening but missing that it's not the real story for 7 8 9. 7,8,9 is not about the resistance and the first order battleing over a galaxy being surpressed or whatever. Thats background noise. It's circumstantial. It's happening all around the main plot. The REAL plot is Rey and Kylo. It's the failings of the Jedi and the Sith and the cycle starting to continue and the people chosen to continue it being like "feth this noise".
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2018/05/21 01:33:19
Subject: Re:Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered?
So in other words, you could be considered a Star Wars fan who watched the Star Wars films and, to one degree or another, liked them, but were bored of the basic formula and wanted the Disney films to signal a departure from it Or else realised that to be the case after the fact, since TLJ is, in fact, a departure from the traditional Star Wars formula.
No. I wasn't bored with the existing formula, I just don't mind that they've moved away from it. It's possible to like more than one movie.
If the fans hadn't gone back to see the movies up to a dozen times each in the theaters, there wouldn't have been funding for the toys in the first place.
Bull crap. George Lucas knew he wanted toys from the beginning. He negotiated his contract from the first movie so that instead of taking a % from sales from the tickets he had major merchandising rights. Lucas's plan was always to produce a massive toy line and other crap and make his mint on that.
Transformers was a TV show designed to sell toys, just like He-man, G.I. Joe, Go Bots, Ninja Turtles, and most everything else from the 80s 90s. George had the fore thought to do that in movie form in the 70s. A much higher production value for a live action movie and special effects, but all designed to sell toys, lunch boxes, bike helmets, holloween costumes, etc etc etc...
The movie was big but it's never left the public consciousness because it was built as a vehicle for a merchandising machine.
You think the movies profits paid for the toys, but the toys is what paid for the Skywalker Ranch, Industrial Light and Magic, and Lucas Film.
This may all be true, but if Star Wars had bombed and not made a profit, no one would have made toys from it. Without the toys, then all the rest never happens as you so correctly point out. But that doesn't mean the toys were guaranteed to happen no matter what.
And if the movie had bombed, no one would have wanted to buy the toys in the first place. Heck, sales of TLJ toys has been notoriously soft, and even I have to admit the movie didn't exactly bomb. Suffer enormously from bad writing and terrible pretense on the part of the director, yes, but not truly bomb.
Consider another sci-fi movie that came out a couple years before Star Wars - Battle Beyond the Stars. It was a sci-fi retelling of the Seven Samurai/The Magnificent Seven. It bombed in the theaters. The characters could have been marketed as action figures, and their ships as toys as well. But because the movie bombed no one bothered doing it.
I never said the movies were not popular. I am not arguing about if the SW movies have or have not been big successes financially if not critically. What I was arguing was that this amazing run of SW being in the public conscious was not because the movies were some touch stone amazing best thing that has ever existed. It's because clever marketing and a merch line that would not quit kept it in the public conscious long after the movies had run their course. An entire generation (20 years) went by between ANH and the prequels. The movies on their own would NEVER have made that kind of impact on everyone. It's the constant merch that kept it running forever.
Once again, I'm not arguing that at all. I'm arguing your earlier assertation that the fans going to see the movie a dozen times was UNIMPORTANT to the success of Star Wars.
Lance845 wrote: Good. Nobody has ever hated starwars or been more toxic to starwars than starwars fans. Glad to see them go.
Like what you like. Like it to the extent that you like it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I was a huge Star Wars fan, and even enjoyed the Vong series that so many despise. I hated TLJ, and have become apathetic to episode 9. I wasn’t toxic to Star Wars. But this movie was crap, and ruined it. If you like it, good on you for having poor taste in a terrible movie. But when 95% of us on here say it’s terrible, and you tell us “good, piss off”, well think about it this way; if they lose 95% of ticket sales, how many more episodes do you think you’ll get? Yes, I get that Dakka is only a sampling of fans. But if you think we’re the only ones who hated a movie that crapped all over a series we all used to love, you’re pathetically wrong.
The negative always yell the loudest but they rarely make up anything close to a majority. If you think they will make episode 9 and it won't make hundreds of millions of dollars you are pathetically wrong. Nothing in 7 or 8 was nearly as bad as 1 2 or 3 and SW did just fine.
Ah... TLJ hasn't made hundreds of millions of dollars yet. It's still under two hundred million.
I don't expect IX to do any better, either. There are too many people saying 'Nope, not going to bother,' and that can't help but have a negative impact on the 'new' fans they're hoping to attract.
"Let me get this straight. I didn't like Star Wars, you liked it a LOT. You aren't going to see the new Star Wars movie? It must really suck then, if you're not going to see it. I think I'll skip it too... just like I skipped all the others."
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Lance845 wrote: No. I dont believe him turning into a pile of robes by being hit with a light saber.
Luke actually joined with the force like yoda. Obi won got beat in a fight.
No, we've SEEN what happens when you hit someone with a lightsaber. They lose pieces, like Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Count Dooku, and the entire group that went to arrest Palpatine. Not one of the ones who died from lightsaber wounds ever manifested as a force ghost.
Obi-Wan knew darn well that he wasn't getting off the Death Star. When Obi-Wan closed his eyes and raised his lightsaber, he was surrendering his life to become one with the Force... so he could continue to guide Luke in the future.
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Lance845 wrote: Luke got shot by floating ball over the course of a week tops while hanging out on the falcon. Thats not real training.
And you'll note he did exactly two things with the force between that and his training with Yoda. Precisely timing the shot that destroyed the Death Star, and - with IMMENSE effort - retrieving his lightsaber from a few feet away.
Rey, like all force sensitives, already havd powers when they are kids. Its why luke could bullseye wamp rats in his t16. Its why anikin could fly a pod so well. Its why the jedi found children.
The big difference between luke and rey is luke lived in a society that supressed knowlege of the jedi, their powers, and their achievements and rey did not. So push come to shove luke has no idea what he would be capable of and rey has a entire 18+ years of hearing about it that she could then try to attempt.
Jedi training was common on Jakku? Where is this shown in the movies?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/21 02:25:31
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2018/05/21 02:28:49
Subject: Re:Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered?
Qui Gon Jinn died of light saber wounds and was the first to become a force ghost. As a force ghost he taught yoda and obi won how to do it. Nobody before qui gon, whodied of ls wounds, had ever become a blue ghost.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Ouze wrote: ... Despite that it also got 1.3 billion worldwide and a 91% on rotten tomatoes. There is no objective metric that meets your assertion.
Rotten Tomatoes deleted bad reviews of Black Panther. If you think they're any sort of credible source, you're smoking crack. Much of the actual thinking public that isn't getting a paycheck to review something actually didn't like TLJ.
And while we're at it, Black Panther was overrated and people were too chicken gak to say so.
To be fair, any review of any movie that scores below one star on Rotten Tomatoes is removed from the average.
I though Black Panther was pretty good, myself. It was a welcome relief from the token comic relief black guy Finn.
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: So what's the consensus on the ship design? Can we all agree that the non-bombing designs from TLJ are good and also Star Warsy? Did Rogue One do it better?
Personally, I think the U-Wing is the best of the DisneyWars designs followed by the TIE Silencer.
Aside from the ultra-slow bomber, they were fine. The Resistance ships were either direct copies of or linear progressions from Rebel ships. The New Order ships were all workable variations of the Great Space Triangle that is the classic Imperial design.
Ship TACTICS, on the other hand, were abominable on both sides.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/21 02:33:24
Lance845 wrote: Qui Gon Jinn died of light saber wounds and was the first to become a force ghost. As a force ghost he taught yoda and obi won how to do it. Nobody before qui gon, whodied of ls wounds, had ever become a blue ghost.
Or else realised that to be the case after the fact, since TLJ is, in fact, a departure from the traditional Star Wars formula.
Where is this shown in the movies?