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No. I dont believe him turning into a pile of robes by being hit with a light saber.

Luke actually joined with the force like yoda. Obi won got beat in a fight.

Luke is a mary sue. So is han solo. Han solo more so.

They were nobody is the point. The hero can be anybody is the point. The break away from families and legacies is what makes tlj so good.

 Lance845 wrote:
No. I dont believe him turning into a pile of robes by being hit with a light saber.

Luke actually joined with the force like yoda. Obi won got beat in a fight.

Luke is a mary sue. So is han solo. Han solo more so.

They were nobody is the point. The hero can be anybody is the point. The break away from families and legacies is what makes tlj so good.

Luke got training and had a journey, a short one- but he was a farm boy that learned.

Han had a history that was alluded to. He didn't just show up, grab a control stick, and become an awesome pilot.

Rey showed up and had powers. Lazy writing by any and all standards.

Also, 'anyone can be a hero'- okay, well you don't explain that with one throw-away line.

Also, what's worse- useless lightsaber twirls, or edited blades in a saber fight because it was choreographed poorly?

Luke got shot by floating ball over the course of a week tops while hanging out on the falcon. Thats not real training.

Han is a drug smuggling piece of gak that everyone loves despite his many flaws in character.

Rey, like all force sensitives, already havd powers when they are kids. Its why luke could bullseye wamp rats in his t16. Its why anikin could fly a pod so well. Its why the jedi found children.

The big difference between luke and rey is luke lived in a society that supressed knowlege of the jedi, their powers, and their achievements and rey did not. So push come to shove luke has no idea what he would be capable of and rey has a entire 18+ years of hearing about it that she could then try to attempt.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I am sure TLJ ill sell tons of the new bomber ships and and tie fighters with extra rockets on them as soon as they get around to making them. There really haven't been any toys made of any of the new stuff yet. So ANOTHER Rey/Finn that looks just like the last movie? Yep. Didn't sell super well.

Dude, there's figures on the shelf for two bucks. The first wave didn't make the cash, the second one isn't. Because some idiot at Hasbro didn't learn the lesson- kids don't want 4-5 different scales of action figure. They want a lot of compatible figures that work with a lot of vehicles.

GI Joe figured this out a long time ago with the Sgt. Savage, GI Joe Extreme, and Sigma 6 debacle. Not sure why Hasbro forgot this.

Perhaps that's why there are no Micromachines for TLJ: TFA had Hot Wheels Die Cast in direct competition with the Micromachines for a film with no unique or interesting spaceships. Rogue One had a couple Micromachines sets and HWDC, but no capital ships. And now, there doesn't seem to be either. I'd buy the crap out of some new SW capital ship toys or snap tite models.

(As much as I love the design, I'm not spending ridiculous FFG prices for the Raddus.)

 Lance845 wrote:
Luke got shot by floating ball over the course of a week tops while hanging out on the falcon. Thats not real training.

And trained with Yoda long before his first lightsaber fight with an actual force-user, and got his ass kicked.

 Lance845 wrote:
Han is a drug smuggling piece of gak that everyone loves despite his many flaws in character.

Yes, a flawed character. You know, the opposite of a boring Mary Sue. It's called making relatable characters because real people aren't perfect, and it helps the immersion.

 Lance845 wrote:
Rey, like all force sensitives, already havd powers when they are kids. Its why luke could bullseye wamp rats in his t16. Its why anikin could fly a pod so well. Its why the jedi found children.

Anakin has faster reflexes from the Force. He wasn't throwing people around, doing mind-tricks, snagging weapons out of the air, etc.

 Lance845 wrote:
The big difference between luke and rey is luke lived in a society that supressed knowlege of the jedi, their powers, and their achievements and rey did not. So push come to shove luke has no idea what he would be capable of and rey has a entire 18+ years of hearing about it that she could then try to attempt.

No, the actual difference is 'bad writers put Rey in a story'.

One of the big key components of a mary sue is that their flaws are actually strengths and everyone loves them because they are the best.

Han solo is exactly that. He gets the girl. He takes out the galaxies "most feared bounty hunter" while blind. He gets rich. He marries a princess. He wins all the things.

Luke blew up the death star with no force training.

Anakin was 6. Rey is 20ish?

Luke has always been gak in a fight. Hes also always just been gak. Officially, yoda did not want to train him. He wanted leia. Leia had talent. Luke was crap. Thats the real story of sw.

Rey, like leia, has talent. Luke, has moping and worrying until someone kicks him in the ass to get him to actually do anything.

 Lance845 wrote:
One of the big key components of a mary sue is that their flaws are actually strengths and everyone loves them because they are the best.

Yes. See also: Rey.

 Lance845 wrote:
Han solo is exactly that. He gets the girl. He takes out the galaxies "most feared bounty hunter" while blind. He gets rich. He marries a princess. He wins all the things.

Wrong. He gets captured. He's abraisive. He's weakened at multiple points. His marriage falls apart.

 Lance845 wrote:
Luke blew up the death star with no force training.

Being guided by Obi-Wan. He had much more training than Rey did before she was throwing tricks around.

 Lance845 wrote:
Anakin was 6. Rey is 20ish?

Reflexes and actual force powers are not the same thing.

 Lance845 wrote:
Luke has always been gak in a fight. Hes also always just been gak. Officially, yoda did not want to train him. He wanted leia. Leia had talent. Luke was crap. Thats the real story of sw.

What parody are you watching?

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

So if something makes a lot of money on its opening weekend, it's good.

Certainly by the studio's metric. It's show business, not show fun.

But in this case I was referring to Black Panther, in response to "Disney is running the SW/MCU into the ground". It's the 3rd biggest movie domestically of all time, and did so while getting a 97% on rotten tomatoes. While TLJ didn't do as well as expectations, that probably has a lot to do with that it didn't get a full release in China, which is a huge blow in 2018. Despite that it also got 1.3 billion worldwide and a 91% on rotten tomatoes. There is no objective metric that meets your assertion.

 Ouze wrote:
... Despite that it also got 1.3 billion worldwide and a 91% on rotten tomatoes. There is no objective metric that meets your assertion.

Rotten Tomatoes deleted bad reviews of Black Panther. If you think they're any sort of credible source, you're smoking crack. Much of the actual thinking public that isn't getting a paycheck to review something actually didn't like TLJ.

And while we're at it, Black Panther was overrated and people were too chicken gak to say so.

Reflexes are actual force powers. Are you not paying attention to the movies? The jedi have no power. The force flows through them. Any enhancment of their speed and reflexes and forsight. And spider sense like feelings that help them. Its all force stuff.

Https://nerdist.com/star-wars-yoda-leia-there-is-another/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xlvBNPAcFkk#

So when did this thing with non-Jedi being able to channel the force start? Rogue One? I'm not a super expert in the canon.

 Lance845 wrote:
Reflexes are actual force powers. Are you not paying attention to the movies? The jedi have no power. The force flows through them. Any enhancment of their speed and reflexes and forsight. And spider sense like feelings that help them. Its all force stuff.

Jedi are still trained in their abilities. Was Anakin or Leia or Luke using mind tricks? No.

Flawed argument.

 Ouze wrote:
So when did this thing with non-Jedi being able to channel the force start? Rogue One? I'm not a super expert in the canon.

Rogue One was subtle with it, almost like you weren't sure it was happening.

TLJ took it to a new level, but TFA is the one that started it. Because writing someone who grows and learns skills requires talent.

 Ouze wrote:
So when did this thing with non-Jedi being able to channel the force start? Rogue One? I'm not a super expert in the canon.

ANH. Everyone is shocked by the size of the target "its impossible" its not impossible, i used to bullseye swamp rats with my t16.

Force sensitive people use the force all the time without realizing it.

 Lance845 wrote:
Force sensitive people use the force all the time without realizing it.

But none of them were doing anything more than a 'reflexive' ability. No one was a master swordsman or using mind tricks or yanking things out of the sky with their powers.

Again, this is not a valid argument.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
So when did this thing with non-Jedi being able to channel the force start? Rogue One? I'm not a super expert in the canon.

ANH. Everyone is shocked by the size of the target "its impossible" its not impossible, i used to bullseye swamp rats with my t16.

Force sensitive people use the force all the time without realizing it.

You're talking about when he bent the torpedo, right? Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

I don't really understand where the franchise is going, but it seems like maybe they're going to have everyone be able to use force type stuff on a very low level and no more specialists like the Jedi. If so then honestly that seems a lot like how they ended Buffy, and it was sort of lame there. IIRC - it's been a while - there were no more slayers and all girls had a little tiny bit of slayer power.

 Ouze wrote:

I don't really understand where the franchise is going, but it seems like maybe they're going to have everyone be able to use force type stuff on a very low level and no more specialists like the Jedi. If so then honestly that seems a lot like how they ended Buffy, and it was sort of lame there.

Think of it, in a way, like any other psionic ability or magical ability. You may be able to catch a football that you was really close to unlikely. You may have subtle influences around you. But you aren't throwing fireballs and levitating unless you're trained on how to focus that ability.

 Ouze wrote:
So when did this thing with non-Jedi being able to channel the force start? Rogue One? I'm not a super expert in the canon.

Since ANH, at least indirectly.

Objective Fact: Starwars is for Kids. George Lucas has said it from day 1. Also Objective Fact: Lucas took a cut from his directors pay to get merch rights because he wanted to sell crap for kids.

Ipso facto - Starwars is for kids and designed as a vehicle for selling merch to children.

It's like how you ignored that the main reason he did this (as was explained earlier) because it made it far more palatable to studio's to take on a new guys project because overall at the time ticket sales were the defining factor behind profitability, not merchandising rights. Which helped the idea of greenlighting this new guys film.

Also after reading your posts.. I genuinely don't know what your argument is besides "Star wars is bad, always has been bad" while at the same time providing statements that have been proven false already in this thread (the toys), and when shown you are wrong you move onto another section of Star Wars to attack while ignoring you've been proven wrong.. Then moving back onto said arguments when you think people have forgotten.

So what's the consensus on the ship design? Can we all agree that the non-bombing designs from TLJ are good and also Star Warsy? Did Rogue One do it better?

Personally, I think the U-Wing is the best of the DisneyWars designs followed by the TIE Silencer.

TLJ is easily my favourite Star Wars film since ESB.

Not just in terms mulling it over after the fact - weighing the pros and cons - but also in terms of sitting there in the cinema and just being blown away.

It was bold, it was unexpected, and it was spectacular. I loved it.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So what's the consensus on the ship design? Can we all agree that the non-bombing designs from TLJ are good and also Star Warsy? Did Rogue One do it better?

Personally, I think the U-Wing is the best of the DisneyWars designs followed by the TIE Silencer.

The resistance ships are pretty much meh. The T-70 X-wings are fine but they are mostly just a standard update to the T-65's, I hate the look of the bombers.

I love all the Rogue One ships that were shown, the TIE striker and TIE reapers are excellent in design. Along with the U-wing and various other things there.

Mostly I hate how the new trilogy squanders things.. Rather then having new ships, the First Order just uses better TIE fighters and Bombers, the only real new ship being the TIE SF.. Which is just a double seated TIE fighter with torpedo's.

Not to mention that rather then creating a new major ship for the group they just reuse the Millennium falcon. At the very least they could've gotten a new ship... Even just upgrading to like the YT-2400 instead would've given them some new interesting flagship of the new series.

I kind of really enjoyed the luxury ship they stole from the casino. It was the first time we saw the inside of a ship like that that was clean and notthe weird mirrored naboo shipthat didnt look like you would want to be in it for long.

I should have specified "new designs", as one of my biggest gripes with TFA is that all the ships look like barely-tweaked copies of OT ships...except for the space lander, which looks like a boat, in space. I really expected Disney to cram in all sorts of new toys--er, ships into the new films.

Lance845 wrote:Yeah, Cause Luke Skywalker had TONS of personality in ANH.

As much as any starting hero in a Hero's Journey (which is what ANH is).

We can see that he has dreams, he is open to the world around him, he has ambition, he has motivations. That's a character.

I believe Reys search for her parents. A lot more then I believe Lukes upset at Obiwan turning into a pile of robes. (Can anyone actually explain what happened there btw?)

I completely Luke's reaction to seeing the man who has opened your eyes to the world around you and the cause you really care for being killed in front of you. Rey's search is also believable.

Obi-Wan is killed, but him turning straight to robes I believe is because he was already one with the force by the time of his death, so much so that his body just fell apart. Again, that's my take.

Lance845 wrote:No. I dont believe him turning into a pile of robes by being hit with a light saber.

I do. I don't believe Rey can be better at flying the Falcon than Han. Welcome to Star Wars.

Luke actually joined with the force like yoda. Obi won got beat in a fight.

He had been meditating on Tatooine long before that fight. He knew he was about to die. He prepared his mind and body, like he had been doing so on Tatooine.

He didn't get beat, so much as chose to be struck down.

Luke is a mary sue. So is han solo. Han solo more so.

Neither are Mary Sues by definition. It's even more ironic considering what you later say about Luke, which are distinctly un-MS traits.

"Luke, has moping and worrying until someone kicks him in the ass to get him to actually do anything"
"Luke has always been gak in a fight. Hes also always just been gak. Officially, yoda did not want to train him. He wanted leia. Leia had talent. Luke was crap"
Sorry, if Luke's THAT bad, how on earth can he be classed a Mary Sue?

They were nobody is the point. The hero can be anybody is the point. The break away from families and legacies is what makes tlj so good.

I like this message. I actually DO really like the fact Rey's parents don't matter. It's a good message.

What I DON'T like is that Rey's abilities are unexplained. I'm absolutely for her power not coming from her parents. But I do want, nay, expect to know WHY our protagonist is the protagonist. Why, in the general galactic fates, is SHE important? I mean, she clearly isn't just average, she is inordinarily powerful ("I've only seen such raw strength once before"), but we're given no reason.

This is a hallmark of Mary Sue-ism - they're powerful "just because".

Anakin is powerful because of his virgin birth, and his status as "The Chosen One". Cliche as it is, it works in a setting where Chosen Ones and fate are tangible.
Luke is powerful due to his descent from Anakin, and his role in fulfilling the Chosen One prophecy.
Leia is powerful due to her descent from Anakin, and her role in fulfilling the Chosen One prophecy.
Kylo is powerful due to his descent from Anakin. Seeing as the Chosen One prophecy had previously apparently been completed, it is unknown if that is still a factor.
Rey is powerful... howso?

Lance845 wrote:Luke got shot by floating ball over the course of a week tops while hanging out on the falcon. Thats not real training.

More than Rey. Luke's training was specifically to harness the Force. Rey has done no actual Force oriented training.

Han is a drug smuggling piece of gak that everyone loves despite his many flaws in character.

And that's why people love him - because flaws make a character.

Rey, like all force sensitives, already havd powers when they are kids. Its why luke could bullseye wamp rats in his t16. Its why anikin could fly a pod so well. Its why the jedi found children.

Yes - however, there's normal power, and then there's Rey, who is apparently leagues above other Jedi for no apparent reason.

The big difference between luke and rey is luke lived in a society that supressed knowlege of the jedi, their powers, and their achievements and rey did not. So push come to shove luke has no idea what he would be capable of and rey has a entire 18+ years of hearing about it that she could then try to attempt.

Rey was a scavenger, on a world that the First Order clearly had power over, and believed that the Jedi were a myth. She outright says it in TFA. How can you not remember that?

Lance845 wrote:One of the big key components of a mary sue is that their flaws are actually strengths and everyone loves them because they are the best.

Another is that their strengths come from seemingly nowhere.

Han solo is exactly that. He gets the girl. He takes out the galaxies "most feared bounty hunter" while blind. He gets rich. He marries a princess. He wins all the things.

He also gets frozen in carbonite, betrayed, gets estranged from his son and wife, loses his home, one of his best friends, and lives out most of his life as a smuggler again, his reputation long since abandoned him.

He had won things, but we saw him put effort in. He risks his life in the trench run. He works to win over Leia. He is tortured by Vader. He is captured when an old friend betrays him. He accidentally beats Fett, but Fett wasn't even paying attention to him. It was a complete fluke, but not because of Han even consciously doing anything. He uses all of his guile and tricks on Endor's moon to take it down.

Luke blew up the death star with no force training.

T-16 womp rat shooting skills established, and he was being guided by Obi-Wan.

Anakin was 6. Rey is 20ish?

Anakin is also the Chosen One, and was immaculately conceived. Rey is not.

Luke has always been gak in a fight. Hes also always just been gak. Officially, yoda did not want to train him. He wanted leia. Leia had talent. Luke was crap. Thats the real story of sw.

Incorrect. Have you actually watched ESB/ROTS?

Yoda never says he wants Leia over Luke. He only ever comes close to mentioning Leia in ESB when Obi-Wan says "That boy is our last hope." to which he replies "No, there is another". Luke was still his first pick, as his actions in ROTS show, telling Obi-Wan to look over him, and train him when the time comes. He never gives such an order to Bail Organa.

Rey, like leia, has talent. Luke, has moping and worrying until someone kicks him in the ass to get him to actually do anything.

Rey has talent. Leia has talent. Luke has talent. However, he also has reasonable doubts, considering that most of his life has been as a moisture farmer. Then someone tells him that his father was a Jedi Knight, the best star pilot in the galaxy and a cunning warrior, that a princess needs rescuing, and then sees his adoptive parents burnt to a crisp, which acts as his catalyst.

Luke has the talent. However, he is still naive and believably takes time in showing his true abilities. Leia has been raised almost since birth to fight in the Rebellion, but he Force abilities don't manifest much at all in the originals. Rey has natural survival skills, which is believable, but her Force talent springs on FAR too quickly to be consistent with what we know in the setting.

Which is the problem - Rey isn't congruous to the setting established. Yes, Star Wars was intended as a Flash Gordon-esque serial. It evolved past that - what you might know as Death of the Author. Lucas' vision doesn't matter if it's not accepted. And even in those Flash Gordon serials, there were laws in the settings - things that absolutely WERE true. Yes, time was nebulous, but the details of the world were adhered to. With this, details are abandoned causing plot holes, inconsistencies, and illogical events. That's a problem for contemporary audiences, it seems.

@ New ship designs

On the whole, I like most of them. I like the T-70 x-wing and the Resurgent class Star Destroyers, as they look like a natural progression of the older models. I do however think they are a little too derivative of the older ones. I know that they wanted to clearly show who the good guys and bad guys are in their choice of vehicles but things do change.

As for those bombers...good design, wrong time. Had they been in the prequels, fighting in the clone wars, they would have been awesome. It would reinforce the idea of ‘space world war 1’ and would have shown technology progressing well. But now, coming after the y-wing and the b-wing...they look old and silly.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:So what's the consensus on the ship design? Can we all agree that the non-bombing designs from TLJ are good and also Star Warsy? Did Rogue One do it better?

Personally, I think the U-Wing is the best of the DisneyWars designs followed by the TIE Silencer.

I think both of those are very, very cool. The only ones I didn't like were the ones that skimmed the salt flats, not because they were old and rusty but because it just seems like kind of a weird idea to me. In my mind, either it flies or it doesn't, not it flies kinda with one fin touching the ground.

Pumpkin wrote:TLJ is easily my favourite Star Wars film since ESB.

Not just in terms mulling it over after the fact - weighing the pros and cons - but also in terms of sitting there in the cinema and just being blown away.

It was bold, it was unexpected, and it was spectacular. I loved it.

Ooh, that's a rough sell.

I think TLJ wasn't that great at all. It had cool parts for real - the silence when the jump to lightspeed thing happened was terrific - but a lot of the movie was kind of ho-hum I think. All the attrition with the ships running out of gas and getting picked off was sort of boring at best IMO.

I would definitely say Rogue One and TFA are demonstrably better than TLJ.

I think my perception of the bombers is colored by their performance in battle. They were deployed in a tight enough formation for one to blow up so many others... and the one that hit its target also blew itself up...


I know I wouldn't want any of the things.

Thats a lot, and my phone receptions getting bad. Il respond to small bits now and maybe other later.

I think its fair to say that the chosen one is a bull crap prophecy. Vader didnt bring balance to anything. We only have shmees word for his virgin birth (also there is a hilarious fan theory about watto being his dad. In summary, shmee has no skills. She cant cook she doesnt clean, so what kind of slave is she? Sex slave. Look at her down cast embarassed eyes when she says anakin is a virgin birth. How does watto get around? He skywalks.), and people are born powerful in the force all the time without any lineage to support it. There is no reason rey couldnt be power naturally. Could we use more explanation? I guess. But i feel like thats just minutes of exposition we dont actually REALLY need.

Because despite lukes and hans flaws everything works out for them because of those flaws. Yeah han gets caught. To no il effect. The only movies that strip him of his mary suedom are. The new ones.

The yoda wanting leia stuff is true. Its canon. I posted links. Look it up.

 Scrabb wrote:
I think my perception of the bombers is colored by their performance in battle. They were deployed in a tight enough formation for one to blow up so many others... and the one that hit its target also blew itself up...


I know I wouldn't want any of the things.

I forgot about the bombers. I agree with what you said but the internal bomb design was really great aesthetically. The way they looked when they all lit up, they way they looked when they dropped - very cool.