With that said if GW - or tournament organisers - were to instigate rules such as
A) You have to pick a primary faction.
B) You gain no CP for any detachments other than your primary faction.
C) You cannot use stratagems, warlord traits or relics other than from your primary faction.
D) (Probably the most extreme) psychic abilities such as buffs and debuffs do not work on units other than your primary faction. I.E. Doom does not grant DE/Harlie units rerolls to wound.
I think a few people might be misunderstanding how balance changes work. In general you want to change the game not the faction if needed, and then after your happy go through and fix the faction.
Allies are game, Guard is faction.
While all drama posts of never going to happen on ally posts are relevant, history has shown that GW has done it before.
I do not expect it. I do expect them to continue to change allies till you reach a point that they don’t give you more, or are burdened with “taxes” to take them.
Further real talk is I expect GW to release an organize play at some point. Something limiting Match games to points, and to a few detachments, and a few missions and a few lists, and in that, I can see them easily putting in a No Allies clause.
IG is not already "powerful" or the data would reflect it..... lets put it this way at the BFS the first GT after the FAQ 4 mono armies made the top 16 Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons and Orks..... no guard. 2 top 5 lists were imperial soup 50% of which included no guard. 3 of the top 5 included Eldar but no let's keep harping on guard.
Yeah, that was not misleadingly selected sample size at all... There were many IG soups in top 16, most having well above the minimum battalion of IG and no other Imperial lists besides that Guilliman spam list.
It is really bizarre to fixate on the soup. Soup is not a thing in itself, it is merely made out of its ingredients. It is utter lunacy to think that performance of an army that is 50% IG and 50% Knights is somehow more similar in performance, and indicative of strengths of an army that is 50% Space Marines and 50% Ad Mech, than it is indicative of strength and performance of of an army that is 100% IG.
It's a small sample size because the FAQ just released..... funny thing is its more factual data then you have provided in this entire thread
IG is not already "powerful" or the data would reflect it..... lets put it this way at the BFS the first GT after the FAQ 4 mono armies made the top 16 Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons and Orks..... no guard. 2 top 5 lists were imperial soup 50% of which included no guard. 3 of the top 5 included Eldar but no let's keep harping on guard.
Yeah, that was not misleadingly selected sample size at all... There were many IG soups in top 16, most having well above the minimum battalion of IG and no other Imperial lists besides that Guilliman spam list.
It is really bizarre to fixate on the soup. Soup is not a thing in itself, it is merely made out of its ingredients. It is utter lunacy to think that performance of an army that is 50% IG and 50% Knights is somehow more similar in performance, and indicative of strengths of an army that is 50% Space Marines and 50% Ad Mech, than it is indicative of strength and performance of of an army that is 100% IG.
It's a small sample size because the FAQ just released..... funny thing is its more factual data then you have provided in this entire thread
No. You intentionally chose top five instead of top 16, so that you could include that one UM soup and omit all except one of those IG soups. That was intentionally misleading. Fruthermore, I think I'm done with you. At this point it is crystal clear that you're not trying to have a honest debate.
IG is not already "powerful" or the data would reflect it..... lets put it this way at the BFS the first GT after the FAQ 4 mono armies made the top 16 Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons and Orks..... no guard. 2 top 5 lists were imperial soup 50% of which included no guard. 3 of the top 5 included Eldar but no let's keep harping on guard.
Yeah, that was not misleadingly selected sample size at all... There were many IG soups in top 16, most having well above the minimum battalion of IG and no other Imperial lists besides that Guilliman spam list.
It is really bizarre to fixate on the soup. Soup is not a thing in itself, it is merely made out of its ingredients. It is utter lunacy to think that performance of an army that is 50% IG and 50% Knights is somehow more similar in performance, and indicative of strengths of an army that is 50% Space Marines and 50% Ad Mech, than it is indicative of strength and performance of of an army that is 100% IG.
It's a small sample size because the FAQ just released..... funny thing is its more factual data then you have provided in this entire thread
No. You intentionally chose top five instead of top 16, so that you could include that one UM soup and omit all except one of those IG soups. That was intentionally misleading. Fruthermore, I think I'm done with you. At this point it is crystal clear that you're not trying to have a honest debate.
The top 16 included guard in 4 lists all that were soup
There were also 4 eldar including 1 that wasn't soup (interesting it was ono eldar and not IG considering how "obviously" broken IG is)
There were 3 soup thousand sons lists just 1 short of those crazy guard
There were 4 mono lists not one of them being the "obviously broken" imperial guard
With that said if GW - or tournament organisers - were to instigate rules such as
A) You have to pick a primary faction.
B) You gain no CP for any detachments other than your primary faction.
C) You cannot use stratagems, warlord traits or relics other than from your primary faction.
D) (Probably the most extreme) psychic abilities such as buffs and debuffs do not work on units other than your primary faction. I.E. Doom does not grant DE/Harlie units rerolls to wound.
then Soup would be much less of a no-brainer.
I could definitely get behind that.
It would also be very helpful in terms of figuring out what needs adjustment. For example, it's frequently been said that IG Infantry are so amazing that they'd still be taken as allies even if they provided no CPs. Well, this would be a perfect way to test that particular theory, as well as many others (e.g. are Ravagers still an issue when not backed up with Doom, are Imperial Knight or Blood Angel stratagems an issue when they have limited CPs to use them with etc.).
But soup is not a thing in itself, I wish people would stop pretending it is. IG/Knight soup has a lot of common with pure IG and nothing in common with SM/SoB soup.
With that said if GW - or tournament organisers - were to instigate rules such as
A) You have to pick a primary faction.
B) You gain no CP for any detachments other than your primary faction.
C) You cannot use stratagems, warlord traits or relics other than from your primary faction.
D) (Probably the most extreme) psychic abilities such as buffs and debuffs do not work on units other than your primary faction. I.E. Doom does not grant DE/Harlie units rerolls to wound.
then Soup would be much less of a no-brainer.
I could definitely get behind that.
It would also be very helpful in terms of figuring out what needs adjustment. For example, it's frequently been said that IG Infantry are so amazing that they'd still be taken as allies even if they provided no CPs. Well, this would be a perfect way to test that particular theory, as well as many others (e.g. are Ravagers still an issue when not backed up with Doom, are Imperial Knight or Blood Angel stratagems an issue when they have limited CPs to use them with etc.).
Already been tested in proxy. During index 40k conscripts were spammed and we had no access to any real stratagems. Conscripts are nerfed now but infantry are actually just as good as conscripts were. Practically ever imperial tournament army was using them then!
Crimson wrote: So IG was well presented in those armies.
But soup is not a thing in itself, I wish people would stop pretending it is. IG/Knight soup has a lot of common with pure IG and nothing in common with SM/SoB soup.
So wait what you get out of 12 of the top 16 lists being soup
4 of 16 being mono factions that arent guard
is that IG is somehow broken...... I'm going to need you to show me on the model exactly where IG touched you so bad that you feel this way
Didn't we decide that BFS was a silly tournament to draw balancing conclusions from because if you won your first 3 games you were in the top 8 regardless of how you then did?
I ask because if so talking about the top 16 is a bit meaningless. The first 8 and second 8 likely didn't interact.
Crimson wrote: Because IG soup is powered by IG being OP, end of story.
Soup is not a thing, it is a mere descriptor, there are no soup units, soup stratagems or soup warlord traits.
but a top 5 list was soup SM/assassins.... do we need to nuke SM that fueled that list. What about eldar having just as many top list and a mono list.... surely they must be nuked..... Thousand sons was in 3 top lists guess they need a good nuke too?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote: Didn't we decide that BFS was a silly tournament to draw balancing conclusions from because if you won your first 3 games you were in the top 8 regardless of how you then did?
I ask because if so talking about the top 16 is a bit meaningless. The first 8 and second 8 likely didn't interact.
Its currently the only post FAQ tournament we have for data. Also being able to play inside of any tournaments bracketing system is part of the game. All they really did is a day 1 bracket system which is similar to what many e-sports do
I'll be honest, I almost feel like that if the regular Guardsman goes to 5ppm people will go back to Conscripts because they only cost 4ppm.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote: Didn't we decide that BFS was a silly tournament to draw balancing conclusions from because if you won your first 3 games you were in the top 8 regardless of how you then did?
I ask because if so talking about the top 16 is a bit meaningless. The first 8 and second 8 likely didn't interact.
I thought it was a silly tournament to count on because the lists were due the day after the FAQ dropped and most people had already set their army in stone before they could go meaning that optimization for the changes hadn't occured yet.
but a top 5 list was soup SM/assassins.... do we need to nuke SM that fueled that list.
If that kept constantly happening, then yes. But it doesn't.
What about eldar having just as many top list and a mono list.... surely they must be nuked..... Thousand sons was in 3 top lists guess they need a good nuke too?
Possibly. There is no doubt that Eldar at least have some overly good builds.
Except that you keep talking about 'nuking.' I really don't want anything to get nuked, merely slightly tweaked.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClockworkZion wrote: I'll be honest, I almost feel like that if the regular Guardsman goes to 5ppm people will go back to Conscripts because they only cost 4ppm.
Well at least then we're in a situation where there is genuine choice between bad troops and a lot of CP and better troops with less CP, instead of current situation where the Infantry Squads get the best of both worlds.
but a top 5 list was soup SM/assassins.... do we need to nuke SM that fueled that list.
If that kept constantly happening, then yes. But it doesn't.
What about eldar having just as many top list and a mono list.... surely they must be nuked..... Thousand sons was in 3 top lists guess they need a good nuke too?
Possibly. There is no doubt that Eldar at least have some overly good builds.
Except that you keep talking about 'nuking.' I really don't want anything to get nuked, merely slightly tweaked.
Ok its settled anything that performs top of tournaments will be swiftly nuked. Screw mono players we need to start whacking anything that gets used in soup..... Ignore the fact that this makes those codexes further reliant on soup to be competitive
ClockworkZion wrote: I'll be honest, I almost feel like that if the regular Guardsman goes to 5ppm people will go back to Conscripts because they only cost 4ppm.
Well at least then we're in a situation where there is genuine choice between bad troops and a lot of CP and better troops with less CP, instead of current situation where the Infantry Squads get the best of both worlds.
The difference would be 30 points. Not exactly hard to shave out of most lists that currently exist to take the better troops if you really want them.
Besides, if you're using the chaffe to hold ground and hide all the time then it's less of an issue if they shoot and fight like crap when their job is to take up space on the board or to screen out assault units for cheap.
The difference would be 30 points. Not exactly hard to shave out of most lists that currently exist to take the better troops if you really want them.
Besides, if you're using the chaffe to hold ground and hide all the time then it's less of an issue if they shoot and fight like crap when their job is to take up space on the board or to screen out assault units for cheap.
Sure. But at least you're paying something more for better troops than for worse ones. That you currently don't is insane.
ClockworkZion wrote: I'll be honest, I almost feel like that if the regular Guardsman goes to 5ppm people will go back to Conscripts because they only cost 4ppm.
Are you kidding me? Have you heard the level of squak from IG players about conscripts? Hard to imagine they would ever consider them. Then again - we are talking about really disingenuous people here that cant admit the most obviously OP units in the game are OP.
The difference would be 30 points. Not exactly hard to shave out of most lists that currently exist to take the better troops if you really want them.
Besides, if you're using the chaffe to hold ground and hide all the time then it's less of an issue if they shoot and fight like crap when their job is to take up space on the board or to screen out assault units for cheap.
Sure. But at least you're paying something more for better troops than for worse ones. That you currently don't is insane.
I wouldn't say it's "insane" as much as a problem of how we points cost just about everything. Most base points costs are basically the same going into 8th as we had in previous editions with little real understanding of how the changes to the game changed the value of those models.
ClockworkZion wrote: I'll be honest, I almost feel like that if the regular Guardsman goes to 5ppm people will go back to Conscripts because they only cost 4ppm.
Well at least then we're in a situation where there is genuine choice between bad troops and a lot of CP and better troops with less CP, instead of current situation where the Infantry Squads get the best of both worlds.
The difference would be 30 points. Not exactly hard to shave out of most lists that currently exist to take the better troops if you really want them.
Besides, if you're using the chaffe to hold ground and hide all the time then it's less of an issue if they shoot and fight like crap when their job is to take up space on the board or to screen out assault units for cheap.
failing Move Move Move half the time would probably stop people from actually using Conscripts in their soup.
Its a very important order for maneuvering and being in the right place at the right time.
Xenomancers wrote: Also it's quite clear to pretty much everyone that 5 point infantry are still the best choice in the game.
I feel like the game needs to bump Infantry costs up in general. If a Sister of Battle is 10, then a Scion should be 9, a Guardsman 7 or 8 and a Conscript 1 point below that. Put a grot at a point even lower than that and we're basically were I feel that spread should be.
Which in turn would cue the rage of everyone who runs Guard or Orks I'm sure, but I feel like that's about how much those models should cost before wargear in the current edition.
Crimson wrote: Because IG soup is powered by IG being OP, end of story.
Soup is not a thing, it is a mere descriptor, there are no soup units, soup stratagems or soup warlord traits.
but a top 5 list was soup SM/assassins.... do we need to nuke SM that fueled that list. What about eldar having just as many top list and a mono list.... surely they must be nuked..... Thousand sons was in 3 top lists guess they need a good nuke too?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote: Didn't we decide that BFS was a silly tournament to draw balancing conclusions from because if you won your first 3 games you were in the top 8 regardless of how you then did?
I ask because if so talking about the top 16 is a bit meaningless. The first 8 and second 8 likely didn't interact.
Its currently the only post FAQ tournament we have for data. Also being able to play inside of any tournaments bracketing system is part of the game. All they really did is a day 1 bracket system which is similar to what many e-sports do
If you actually watched the game on stream you'd know that unbeatable UM assassin list only won it's third game because the guy playing against it doesn't know how to play his own army. (forgot about the original d3 mortal wounds from deathgrip when used on Gulliman with one wound left and failed the str roll-off). He loses that game and he is out of the top 8-16 whatever the weird paring system would have done. Even then, one player not knowing how one of their meat and potato strats works up against arguably one of the best players in the US 40k scene probably presents a mismatch in player skill that has a significant effect on how the game plays out.
This is the problem relying on one off tournament results. You have to look at enough games where outliers like this are not skewing your perception of the meta...
Already been tested in proxy. During index 40k conscripts were spammed and we had no access to any real stratagems.
Sorry but that's just not a valid comparison.
In Index-40k, you could mix and match troops freely in detachments (so a SM detachment could have conscript troops rather than SM troops).
That is no longer possible.
What's more, with the suggested rules above, you'd likely be losing out on CPs by taking guard allies (since they wouldn't bring any CPs with them). This might not have mattered in the Index era, when there was little to spend CPs on, but it makes a lot more difference now.
Besides, what's the harm in testing it properly and finding out for certain? Unless you're afraid that the results will prove you wrong.
You always say "obvious stuff" while also never being able to provide any proof. The fact that we don't see 200 IG infantry lists dominating is proof in and of its self that they aren't OP. The loyal 32 just shows the importance of cheep CP for other factions.... not the dominance of IG
I think we have to take a step back for a moment here.
Do you remember when punisher and other LR variants were crushing it? They never got nerfed, so what changed?
Custodes and Knights came out. Smash Captain missiles were uncovered. These things hampered the ability for LRBTs to operate effectively and so they faded in favor of very CP hungry allies. That didn't make LRBTs not awesome - it just put them on the shelf. Now that screens can block smash captains I bet the LRBTs are going to come back in force.
Furthermore it's a lot easier to paint and play in 2.5-3 hours one model as opposes to 200. 200 IG are still great - they are just really stressful to get in under time.
Crimson wrote: Because IG soup is powered by IG being OP, end of story.
Soup is not a thing, it is a mere descriptor, there are no soup units, soup stratagems or soup warlord traits.
but a top 5 list was soup SM/assassins.... do we need to nuke SM that fueled that list. What about eldar having just as many top list and a mono list.... surely they must be nuked..... Thousand sons was in 3 top lists guess they need a good nuke too?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote: Didn't we decide that BFS was a silly tournament to draw balancing conclusions from because if you won your first 3 games you were in the top 8 regardless of how you then did?
I ask because if so talking about the top 16 is a bit meaningless. The first 8 and second 8 likely didn't interact.
Its currently the only post FAQ tournament we have for data. Also being able to play inside of any tournaments bracketing system is part of the game. All they really did is a day 1 bracket system which is similar to what many e-sports do
If you actually watched the game on stream you'd know that unbeatable UM assassin list only won it's third game because the guy playing against it doesn't know how to play his own army. (forgot about the original d3 mortal wounds from deathgrip when used on Gulliman with one wound left and failed the str roll-off). He loses that game and he is out of the top 8-16 whatever the weird paring system would have done. Even then, one player not knowing how one of their meat and potato strats works up against arguably one of the best players in the US 40k scene probably presents a mismatch in player skill that has a significant effect on how the game plays out.
This is the problem relying on one off tournament results. You have to look at enough games where outliers like this are not skewing your perception of the meta...
Someone misplayed in a game so we are better off looking at no data and drawing conclusions....
You always say "obvious stuff" while also never being able to provide any proof. The fact that we don't see 200 IG infantry lists dominating is proof in and of its self that they aren't OP. The loyal 32 just shows the importance of cheep CP for other factions.... not the dominance of IG
I think we have to take a step back for a moment here.
Do you remember when punisher and other LR variants were crushing it? They never got nerfed, so what changed?
Custodes and Knights came out. Smash Captain missiles were uncovered. These things hampered the ability for LRBTs to operate effectively and so they faded in favor of very CP hungry allies. That didn't make LRBTs not awesome - it just put them on the shelf. Now that screens can block smash captains I bet the LRBTs are going to come back in force.
Furthermore it's a lot easier to paint and play in 2.5-3 hours one model as opposes to 200. 200 IG are still great - they are just really stressful to get in under time.
So the people that were bringing 200 conscripts lost them in a few months and were unable to bring them now?
LRBT were never demolishing the meta. They are a good unit.... they are nowhere close to being OP. The fact is that on daka the "IG are obviously broken" is always brought up without a shred of evidence other than the appearance on the loyal 32 for CP generation. Until there is some kind of evidence posters need to stop claiming this as common knowledge
I'm starting to feel like the only things cherry picked more than the units in a min-maxed allied list are the examples used to prove that monoguard are somehow stronger than allied min-maxed Imperium with a splash of Guard for CP purposes.
Xenomancers wrote: Also it's quite clear to pretty much everyone that 5 point infantry are still the best choice in the game.
I feel like the game needs to bump Infantry costs up in general. If a Sister of Battle is 10, then a Scion should be 9, a Guardsman 7 or 8 and a Conscript 1 point below that. Put a grot at a point even lower than that and we're basically were I feel that spread should be.
Which in turn would cue the rage of everyone who runs Guard or Orks I'm sure, but I feel like that's about how much those models should cost before wargear in the current edition.
Strongly disagree with that. To me it's pretty clear that when it comes to basic troop infantry that the ones at the bottom are too good for their points and the ones on the top are not worth their points.
Under Infantry
Khabs
Firewarriors
Vangaurds(to some extent)
(At least 1 point increase)
Over Strike squads
tactical marines
rubrics
necron warriors
immortals
dire-avengers
(all of these should drop 1-2 points)
Intercessors
off the top of my head the only really good elite options for their points that are troops are
Harlequin troops
Battlesisters (possibly OP once they get army rules)
Guardians are in kind of a weird place where they are probably over-costed but are at least playable.
If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.
I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.
Already been tested in proxy. During index 40k conscripts were spammed and we had no access to any real stratagems.
Sorry but that's just not a valid comparison.
In Index-40k, you could mix and match troops freely in detachments (so a SM detachment could have conscript troops rather than SM troops).
That is no longer possible.
What's more, with the suggested rules above, you'd likely be losing out on CPs by taking guard allies (since they wouldn't bring any CPs with them). This might not have mattered in the Index era, when there was little to spend CPs on, but it makes a lot more difference now.
Besides, what's the harm in testing it properly and finding out for certain? Unless you're afraid that the results will prove you wrong.
The harm is wasted time. I don't need to see test results. I know Infantry squads are too cheap by doing simple math and comparing to other armies. Also - the comparison is valid. Cheep chaff infantry are spammed because they are much more valuable than what you pay for them. No one did what you are suggesting because it would shut off army rules. The only reason they would do it would be to include assasins or hq's that don't need armies traits. Losing out on an army trait for infantry would be idiotic - so it's not really relevent to the discussion.
Realistically - Conscripts and infantry are the same unit. One hits on 5's and the other hits on 4's. If you are paying 1/3 percent more to hit 1/3 more it's basically the same thing. We already know what will happen. Even if stratagems weren't a thing units like this will be spammed.
Xenomancers wrote: Also it's quite clear to pretty much everyone that 5 point infantry are still the best choice in the game.
I feel like the game needs to bump Infantry costs up in general. If a Sister of Battle is 10, then a Scion should be 9, a Guardsman 7 or 8 and a Conscript 1 point below that. Put a grot at a point even lower than that and we're basically were I feel that spread should be.
Which in turn would cue the rage of everyone who runs Guard or Orks I'm sure, but I feel like that's about how much those models should cost before wargear in the current edition.
Strongly disagree with that. To me it's pretty clear that when it comes to basic troop infantry that the ones at the bottom are too good for their points and the ones on the top are not worth their points.
Under Infantry
Khabs
Firewarriors
Vangaurds(to some extent)
(At least 1 point increase)
Over Strike squads
tactical marines
rubrics
necron warriors
immortals
dire-avengers
(all of these should drop 1-2 points)
Intercessors
off the top of my head the only really good elite options for their points that are troops are
Harlequin troops
Battlesisters (possibly OP once they get army rules)
Guardians are in kind of a weird place where they are probably over-costed but are at least playable.
I clearly didn't bother to price tag every unit in the game, and was just giving an example of how, assuming a Sister is worth 10 points, we should be pricing the models below them.
If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.
I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.
Khabs aren't OP because of their stats. Their stats are pretty tame for 6 points. They are a gaurdsmen (should be 5 points) with a much better gun (+1 point) should be fair right? No - power from pain is probably the main problem with these guys. 6+FNP just for existing is too much. That is an army trait for most every other army. They get this plus an army trait. This makes a 6 point khab OP.
Also - their transports are too cheap too. Shooting out of a vehical is incredibly strong. Ether the transports need to go up or these guys do - don't care what they do in that situation.
Xenomancers wrote: Also it's quite clear to pretty much everyone that 5 point infantry are still the best choice in the game.
I feel like the game needs to bump Infantry costs up in general. If a Sister of Battle is 10, then a Scion should be 9, a Guardsman 7 or 8 and a Conscript 1 point below that. Put a grot at a point even lower than that and we're basically were I feel that spread should be.
Which in turn would cue the rage of everyone who runs Guard or Orks I'm sure, but I feel like that's about how much those models should cost before wargear in the current edition.
Strongly disagree with that. To me it's pretty clear that when it comes to basic troop infantry that the ones at the bottom are too good for their points and the ones on the top are not worth their points.
Under Infantry
Khabs
Firewarriors
Vangaurds(to some extent)
(At least 1 point increase)
Over Strike squads
tactical marines
rubrics
necron warriors
immortals
dire-avengers
(all of these should drop 1-2 points)
Intercessors
off the top of my head the only really good elite options for their points that are troops are
Harlequin troops
Battlesisters (possibly OP once they get army rules)
Guardians are in kind of a weird place where they are probably over-costed but are at least playable.
"I clearly didn't bother to price tag every unit in the game, and was just giving an example of how, assuming a Sister is worth 10 points, we should be pricing the models below them."
Yeah but it is an important distinction to make. The problem is cheap infantry - not elite infantry.
If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.
I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.
Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.
"I clearly didn't bother to price tag every unit in the game, and was just giving an example of how, assuming a Sister is worth 10 points, we should be pricing the models below them."
Yeah but it is an important distinction to make. The problem is cheap infantry - not elite infantry.
Yeah, and I only was looking at cheap infantry: namely Guard's cheap infantry. I feel like most units in the game should cost more than they do rather than the elites costing less.
If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.
I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.
Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.
This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.
If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.
I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.
Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.
This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.
Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.
It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.
Marmatag wrote: There is plenty of evidence that has been provided. You can't just call it fake news and move on.
No evidence has been provided, the closest thing is "if you walk a bunch of guardsmen across the board with commanders and take no casualties and can bring all there shot to bear on one unit you will out shoot marines"..... the fact that its the best thing that can be presented in the face of actual game results is pathetic
If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.
I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.
Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.
This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.
Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.
It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.
You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.
If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.
Marmatag wrote: If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.
You could go with 3 patrols for the CP, running 1 of Vect and two others of something else. It doesn't buff your tanks across the entire army, but it'd give you some flexibility.
Marmatag wrote: If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.
You could go with 3 patrols for the CP, running 1 of Vect and two others of something else. It doesn't buff your tanks across the entire army, but it'd give you some flexibility.
You wouldn't have enough CP. I run a brigade and i'm starved for CP.
You'll command reroll 3 dice per game easily even if things go well. You'll Vect once, because if you can kill a Knight with a clutch cancel you need to do it, because Knights don't degrade. You'll Lightning Reflexes once, at least, because your vehicles die to bolter rounds.
Right there, that's 9 cp, assuming things go as planned. And now if you go second you'll want to prepared positions, for 11.
Dark Eldar Kabal are a glass cannon army. If they didn't have very strong shooting, you guys realize they would be completely worthless on the table right? Right?
Marmatag wrote: If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.
You could go with 3 patrols for the CP, running 1 of Vect and two others of something else. It doesn't buff your tanks across the entire army, but it'd give you some flexibility.
You wouldn't have enough CP. I run a brigade and i'm starved for CP.
You'll command reroll 3 dice per game easily even if things go well.
You'll Vect once, because if you can kill a Knight with a clutch cancel you need to do it, because Knights don't degrade.
You'll Lightning Reflexes once, at least, because your vehicles die to bolter rounds.
Right there, that's 9 cp, assuming things go as planned. And now if you go second you'll want to prepared positions, for 11.
Dark Eldar Kabal are a glass cannon army. If they didn't have very strong shooting, you guys realize they would be completely worthless on the table right? Right?
All I know about Dark Eldar is people crying about how Dissies kill Primaris.
That said, glass cannon is supposed to be the Dark Eldar thing. It was when they got revamped in 5th at least. Actually I'd say they're a glass knife: if you use it right it works great, use it wrong and it breaks.
Marmatag wrote: If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.
You could go with 3 patrols for the CP, running 1 of Vect and two others of something else. It doesn't buff your tanks across the entire army, but it'd give you some flexibility.
You wouldn't have enough CP. I run a brigade and i'm starved for CP.
You'll command reroll 3 dice per game easily even if things go well.
You'll Vect once, because if you can kill a Knight with a clutch cancel you need to do it, because Knights don't degrade.
You'll Lightning Reflexes once, at least, because your vehicles die to bolter rounds.
Right there, that's 9 cp, assuming things go as planned. And now if you go second you'll want to prepared positions, for 11.
Dark Eldar Kabal are a glass cannon army. If they didn't have very strong shooting, you guys realize they would be completely worthless on the table right? Right?
All I know about Dark Eldar is people crying about how Dissies kill Primaris.
That said, glass cannon is supposed to be the Dark Eldar thing. It was when they got revamped in 5th at least. Actually I'd say they're a glass knife: if you use it right it works great, use it wrong and it breaks.
Dark Eldar were hot garbage before their weapons got buffs in the codex. There are numerous counters to DE as well. Primaris isn't one of them, and that's not a good enough reason to object to DE being good. Tau, Tyranids, Necrons - all decent counters to DE if played well. With my Nids i crush Eldar with little trouble. Problem is Knights have invalidated a lot of the counters.
So the people that were bringing 200 conscripts lost them in a few months and were unable to bring them now?
LRBT were never demolishing the meta. They are a good unit.... they are nowhere close to being OP. The fact is that on daka the "IG are obviously broken" is always brought up without a shred of evidence other than the appearance on the loyal 32 for CP generation. Until there is some kind of evidence posters need to stop claiming this as common knowledge
Big blobs of guard aren't very good at dealing with banana bikes. Even the whole army in double tap range and FRFSRF would kill maybe 3 of them (they'd do twice as much to a knight). That doesn't mean IS are suddenly terrible. It makes custodes a sharp counter to huge unwieldy blobs. So it comes down to whether or not the tanks can whittle the bikes down before they get too close.
Now that screens can keep stuff off tanks there's a good chance they'll make a come back.
Marmatag wrote: If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.
You could go with 3 patrols for the CP, running 1 of Vect and two others of something else. It doesn't buff your tanks across the entire army, but it'd give you some flexibility.
You wouldn't have enough CP. I run a brigade and i'm starved for CP.
You'll command reroll 3 dice per game easily even if things go well.
You'll Vect once, because if you can kill a Knight with a clutch cancel you need to do it, because Knights don't degrade.
You'll Lightning Reflexes once, at least, because your vehicles die to bolter rounds.
Right there, that's 9 cp, assuming things go as planned. And now if you go second you'll want to prepared positions, for 11.
Dark Eldar Kabal are a glass cannon army. If they didn't have very strong shooting, you guys realize they would be completely worthless on the table right? Right?
All I know about Dark Eldar is people crying about how Dissies kill Primaris.
That said, glass cannon is supposed to be the Dark Eldar thing. It was when they got revamped in 5th at least. Actually I'd say they're a glass knife: if you use it right it works great, use it wrong and it breaks.
Dark Eldar were hot garbage before their weapons got buffs in the codex. There are numerous counters to DE as well. Primaris isn't one of them, and that's not a good enough reason to object to DE being good. Tau, Tyranids, Necrons - all decent counters to DE if played well. With my Nids i crush Eldar with little trouble. Problem is Knights have invalidated a lot of the counters.
I'm not arguing anyone should be bad. Heck, I'm not known for my choice of strong codexes or armies (I play Imperial Fists and just started GSC the week following them getting nerfed to not Cult Ambush on turn 1). I was more offering my meager attempt at an idea how to benefit from Vect without going full Vect.
Marmatag wrote: There is plenty of evidence that has been provided. You can't just call it fake news and move on.
No evidence has been provided, the closest thing is "if you walk a bunch of guardsmen across the board with commanders and take no casualties and can bring all there shot to bear on one unit you will out shoot marines"..... the fact that its the best thing that can be presented in the face of actual game results is pathetic
There have been plenty of game results. We've just moved way too far beyond them in rules and meta to even bother dredging them up.
Make the Castellan list, but don't use IG then the picture will be a little more clear.
So the people that were bringing 200 conscripts lost them in a few months and were unable to bring them now?
LRBT were never demolishing the meta. They are a good unit.... they are nowhere close to being OP. The fact is that on daka the "IG are obviously broken" is always brought up without a shred of evidence other than the appearance on the loyal 32 for CP generation. Until there is some kind of evidence posters need to stop claiming this as common knowledge
Big blobs of guard aren't very good at dealing with banana bikes. Even the whole army in double tap range and FRFSRF would kill maybe 3 of them (they'd do twice as much to a knight). That doesn't mean IS are suddenly terrible. It makes custodes a sharp counter to huge unwieldy blobs. So it comes down to whether or not the tanks can whittle the bikes down before they get too close.
Yes they are. Keep in mind that 'dealing with something' doesn't have to always mean killing it dead in a single turn. Now that the bikes can't charge over the screen, you can bog them down pretty easily. Tarpits are the new black.
Marmatag wrote: If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.
You could go with 3 patrols for the CP, running 1 of Vect and two others of something else. It doesn't buff your tanks across the entire army, but it'd give you some flexibility.
You wouldn't have enough CP. I run a brigade and i'm starved for CP.
You'll command reroll 3 dice per game easily even if things go well. You'll Vect once, because if you can kill a Knight with a clutch cancel you need to do it, because Knights don't degrade. You'll Lightning Reflexes once, at least, because your vehicles die to bolter rounds.
Right there, that's 9 cp, assuming things go as planned. And now if you go second you'll want to prepared positions, for 11.
Dark Eldar Kabal are a glass cannon army. If they didn't have very strong shooting, you guys realize they would be completely worthless on the table right? Right?
All I know about Dark Eldar is people crying about how Dissies kill Primaris.
That said, glass cannon is supposed to be the Dark Eldar thing. It was when they got revamped in 5th at least. Actually I'd say they're a glass knife: if you use it right it works great, use it wrong and it breaks.
Dark Eldar were hot garbage before their weapons got buffs in the codex. There are numerous counters to DE as well. Primaris isn't one of them, and that's not a good enough reason to object to DE being good. Tau, Tyranids, Necrons - all decent counters to DE if played well. With my Nids i crush Eldar with little trouble. Problem is Knights have invalidated a lot of the counters.
I'm not arguing anyone should be bad. Heck, I'm not known for my choice of strong codexes or armies (I play Imperial Fists and just started GSC the week following them getting nerfed to not Cult Ambush on turn 1). I was more offering my meager attempt at an idea how to benefit from Vect without going full Vect.
Understood.
Eldar need to solve this problem, whereas a Dark Eldar army (most people don't run dark eldar armies because of the obvious weaknesses) don't really have the same concerns. Bringing a patrol to have that feather in your cap for a list that does something completely functionally different makes sense, you're minimizing an investment to get the desired result. However when the meat and potatoes of your army is actual DE, you need the FNP, the Wound Relic, and the warlord trait. Without these you do not function.
So the people that were bringing 200 conscripts lost them in a few months and were unable to bring them now?
LRBT were never demolishing the meta. They are a good unit.... they are nowhere close to being OP. The fact is that on daka the "IG are obviously broken" is always brought up without a shred of evidence other than the appearance on the loyal 32 for CP generation. Until there is some kind of evidence posters need to stop claiming this as common knowledge
Big blobs of guard aren't very good at dealing with banana bikes. Even the whole army in double tap range and FRFSRF would kill maybe 3 of them (they'd do twice as much to a knight). That doesn't mean IS are suddenly terrible. It makes custodes a sharp counter to huge unwieldy blobs. So it comes down to whether or not the tanks can whittle the bikes down before they get too close.
Now that screens can keep stuff off tanks there's a good chance they'll make a come back.
So multiple counters exist in the meta which is why we aren't seeing any of these phantom IG armies placing at tournaments........ What do you call an army that has several easy counters to it floating about.... I sure don't call it broken.
Also all this FAQ is going to do is slightly increase the amount of guard you see taken
instead of the loyal 32 many are going to opt for the cheapest guard brigade soon. You still won't see mono guard crushing tournament after tournament because they simply cant
The big winner of the FAQ is Ynnari who (thanks to soul burst) is the only army in the game that can easily and effectively jump screens left and right.
If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.
I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.
Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.
This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.
Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.
It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.
You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.
If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.
IDK what you mean 10 fnp saves on a vehicle. Sure there will be some times when you make 5 of 10 FNP's on a venom. I'm not saying it's worthless. Just that reroll 1's ignore cover +3 move for all transports is better than 6+ FNP.
So the people that were bringing 200 conscripts lost them in a few months and were unable to bring them now?
LRBT were never demolishing the meta. They are a good unit.... they are nowhere close to being OP. The fact is that on daka the "IG are obviously broken" is always brought up without a shred of evidence other than the appearance on the loyal 32 for CP generation. Until there is some kind of evidence posters need to stop claiming this as common knowledge
Big blobs of guard aren't very good at dealing with banana bikes. Even the whole army in double tap range and FRFSRF would kill maybe 3 of them (they'd do twice as much to a knight). That doesn't mean IS are suddenly terrible. It makes custodes a sharp counter to huge unwieldy blobs. So it comes down to whether or not the tanks can whittle the bikes down before they get too close.
Now that screens can keep stuff off tanks there's a good chance they'll make a come back.
So multiple counters exist in the meta which is why we aren't seeing any of these phantom IG armies placing at tournaments........ What do you call an army that has several easy counters to it floating about.... I sure don't call it broken.
Also all this FAQ is going to do is slightly increase the amount of guard you see taken
instead of the loyal 32 many are going to opt for the cheapest guard brigade soon. You still won't see mono guard crushing tournament after tournament because they simply cant
The big winner of the FAQ is Ynnari who (thanks to soul burst) is the only army in the game that can easily and effectively jump screens left and right.
A brigade/or batallion of catachans or cadians is probably the most common detachment in 40k tournaments scene right now. Are you seriously talking about phantom IG?
If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.
I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.
Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.
This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.
Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.
It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.
You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.
If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.
IDK what you mean 10 fnp saves on a vehicle. Sure there will be some times when you make 5 of 10 FNP's on a venom. I'm not saying it's worthless. Just that reroll 1's ignore cover +3 move for all transports is better than 6+ FNP.
It's not though. Archons give rerolls of 1s already. 3 inches of movement is kind of pointless. Ignoring cover isn't terrible but it doesn't help your dudes, and benefits conferred to a transport aren't transferred to the guys inside.
10 FNPs on a raider or ravager. That's the point. Otherwise it's outright slain.
Also, like i said, warlord traits and relics matter.
Poison is solid against high toughness non-vehicles, with no better than a 3+, and even a 3+ is tough. What is that? I have a grip of poison in my list. What are you facing that i am not?
No you are ignoring over a years worth of data because it's not the data you want. Cheap infantry is always spammed and always will be.
Sure. When there is no cost to doing so.
You cannot take different rules and different situations and expect things to remain the same.
Far from ignoring the data I'm literally suggesting a way to get the most accurate data possible.
You are the one constantly refusing to get data that would prove you right. Of course, this assumes that you really believe the data would back you up. If, on the other hand, you just want to see guard infantry nerfed for the sheer hell of it, then suddenly you not wanting to get accurate data makes a lot more sense.
Well I emailed GW about the fly change (mentioned they could restrict it to require you to measure vertical distance on the charge, and require charges to multicharge against the unit they're charging over so the screen is doing something other than standing around like a bunch of confused ducks when they see the flying bananas race past), CP sharing (mentioned that CP generation could change to being tied to points, CP could be restricted to the same detachment, and/or CP bonuses be given the AoS treatment so you don't get as much if you don't share as many keywords), and talked about maybe, just maybe, could we get a cover mechanic for when people shoot through a unit at something behind that unit (if, say 50% of it is covered by intervening models).
If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.
I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.
Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.
This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.
Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.
It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.
You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.
If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.
IDK what you mean 10 fnp saves on a vehicle. Sure there will be some times when you make 5 of 10 FNP's on a venom. I'm not saying it's worthless. Just that reroll 1's ignore cover +3 move for all transports is better than 6+ FNP.
It's not though. Archons give rerolls of 1s already. 3 inches of movement is kind of pointless. Ignoring cover isn't terrible but it doesn't help your dudes, and benefits conferred to a transport aren't transferred to the guys inside.
10 FNPs on a raider or ravager. That's the point. Otherwise it's outright slain.
Also, like i said, warlord traits and relics matter.
Tyel wrote: Didn't we decide that BFS was a silly tournament to draw balancing conclusions from because if you won your first 3 games you were in the top 8 regardless of how you then did?
I ask because if so talking about the top 16 is a bit meaningless. The first 8 and second 8 likely didn't interact.
Talking about the top 16 of any tournament and trying to balance based on that is such a ridiculous notion anyway.
If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.
I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.
Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.
This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.
Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.
It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.
You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.
If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.
IDK what you mean 10 fnp saves on a vehicle. Sure there will be some times when you make 5 of 10 FNP's on a venom. I'm not saying it's worthless. Just that reroll 1's ignore cover +3 move for all transports is better than 6+ FNP.
It's not though. Archons give rerolls of 1s already. 3 inches of movement is kind of pointless. Ignoring cover isn't terrible but it doesn't help your dudes, and benefits conferred to a transport aren't transferred to the guys inside.
10 FNPs on a raider or ravager. That's the point. Otherwise it's outright slain.
Also, like i said, warlord traits and relics matter.
Poison is solid against high toughness non-vehicles, with no better than a 3+, and even a 3+ is tough. What is that? I have a grip of poison in my list. What are you facing that i am not?
Yeah.
i play a lot of different armies vs a lot of different armies. Things I've seen khabs do that no other infantry in the game could hope to do. Drop skarbrand - mortarian - carnifexes - hivetyrants - daemon princes - mutlith vortex beasts. They also do well compared to other infantry against custodians. Saw this poor fool ran an Avatar and won a GT somehow - guess he didn't run into any dark eldar. Theres lots of powerful units that poison just merks. Otherwise - it's still buckets of dice and if you are flayed skull they are basically -1 AP against everything you are shooting at...cause who isn't in cover these days? or ever really.
If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.
I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.
Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.
This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.
Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.
It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.
You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.
If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.
IDK what you mean 10 fnp saves on a vehicle. Sure there will be some times when you make 5 of 10 FNP's on a venom. I'm not saying it's worthless. Just that reroll 1's ignore cover +3 move for all transports is better than 6+ FNP.
It's not though. Archons give rerolls of 1s already. 3 inches of movement is kind of pointless. Ignoring cover isn't terrible but it doesn't help your dudes, and benefits conferred to a transport aren't transferred to the guys inside.
10 FNPs on a raider or ravager. That's the point. Otherwise it's outright slain.
Also, like i said, warlord traits and relics matter.
Yep, you're right, if they're embarked they get the ignore cover too. But, who cares, seriously.
If you're not running black heart you should be running Obsidian Rose.
What you lose: 1. Rerolling 1s to wound aura thanks to relic. You now have no way to reroll wounds. 2. Getting CP on 6+ warlord trait. You desperately need CP. 3. FNP on vehicles 4. Agents of Vect
it's not worth it.
Again if you're playing Eldar, and just splicing in DE for some shooting, sure, obsidian rose all day. But if you are playing Dark Eldar, you need what Black Heart brings.
Asmodios wrote: The fact is that on daka the "IG are obviously broken" is always brought up without a shred of evidence other than the appearance on the loyal 32 for CP generation. Until there is some kind of evidence posters need to stop claiming this as common knowledge
The only thing that is broken about IG is the CP generation funding the elite, high impact stratagems of other armies. On top of that, they appear to be an issue because of the relative weakness of competing troop choices for many Imperial Armies. There may be an argument that they're undercosted for what they bring, whatever. I'd rather they have competition because other troop choices were made better, not because Guardsmen were made worse.
If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.
I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.
Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.
This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.
Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.
It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.
You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.
If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.
IDK what you mean 10 fnp saves on a vehicle. Sure there will be some times when you make 5 of 10 FNP's on a venom. I'm not saying it's worthless. Just that reroll 1's ignore cover +3 move for all transports is better than 6+ FNP.
It's not though. Archons give rerolls of 1s already. 3 inches of movement is kind of pointless. Ignoring cover isn't terrible but it doesn't help your dudes, and benefits conferred to a transport aren't transferred to the guys inside.
10 FNPs on a raider or ravager. That's the point. Otherwise it's outright slain.
Also, like i said, warlord traits and relics matter.
Yep, you're right, if they're embarked they get the ignore cover too. But, who cares, seriously.
If you're not running black heart you should be running Obsidian Rose.
What you lose:
1. Rerolling 1s to wound aura thanks to relic. You now have no way to reroll wounds.
2. Getting CP on 6+ warlord trait. You desperately need CP.
3. FNP on vehicles
4. Agents of Vect
it's not worth it.
Again if you're playing Eldar, and just splicing in DE for some shooting, sure, obsidian rose all day. But if you are playing Dark Eldar, you need what Black Heart brings.
Look I'm not trying to tell you how to play DE. They have a lot of good options. If I want to reroll wounds I just bring doom along. If I want Vect I bring a flyer wing with dessie cannon night fighters or 3 Voidravens. I put my archons into action - My ravagers get get re-roll 1's ignore cover and can split up in the back feild without having to waste an archon. Overall it's really the best.
Most your army is in transports - the get no benift from reroll 1's aura to hit or to wound. Unless you are flayed skull - you are reolling 1's to hit basically no mater what.
Most armies I see use an archon to buff their ravagers. Flayed skull doesn't need to waste an archon to do that. He can fly up and be where he needs to be while ravagers can split up and hold back line.
Ignore cover in most cases is going to be identical to re-roll 1's to wound. How often are you shooting at something without a cover save in this game? Maybe 30% of the time?
Plus - doom is where the money is at. Ravagers with doom reroll 1's ignore cover is GG.
Also I have no issue with range in DE. everything moves 19 " in the move phase. Range is not an issue. I don't remember what obsidian rose WL trait and relic are but I remember not being impressed.
I am happy with flayed skull warlord trait though. I try to make a murder archon. +1 attack +1 str with djin blade. If he soul traps a unit - he becomes a living god with str 6 ap-3 9 attacks d3 damage. That's better than celestine.
In any case this is way off topic - feel free to PM me. Happy to talk about DE. I think the topic to convey here is that a 6 point khab inside a venom is too good. Not even custdians are safe - they will die to weight of dice.
I like the everything always works and nothing ever fails approach. Doom requires a 7 to cast and is subject to denial, it targets exactly 1 unit.
Ravagers are easily deleted if they start on the table, or you're paying 3CP to deep strike them, which is hard to afford.
You can't win a game with just disintigrator cannons; strength 5 is a huge limitation. They're a nice feather in the cap, but subtracting them, are Dark Eldar really able to do much of anything? Drop the dissies from a DE list and see how it does. Hint: it would suck.
If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.
I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.
Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.
This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.
Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.
It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.
You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.
If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.
That statement is false. Rule of 3. Can't bring more than 3 ravagers, so durable per point is less relevant when you can't bring the most effective unit in the codex at will.
And they are paper thin even per point, so, not sure what you're saying.
Marmatag wrote: I like the everything always works and nothing ever fails approach. Doom requires a 7 to cast and is subject to denial, it targets exactly 1 unit.
Ravagers are easily deleted if they start on the table, or you're paying 3CP to deep strike them, which is hard to afford.
You can't win a game with just disintigrator cannons; strength 5 is a huge limitation. They're a nice feather in the cap, but subtracting them, are Dark Eldar really able to do much of anything? Drop the dissies from a DE list and see how it does. Hint: it would suck.
Dessie outdamage a dark lance vs a knight...how is it a limitation? It's better than a dark lance except vs t6 and t7 and it's not like I don't have at least 8 blasters in an army. I can reliably cast doom with eldrad. +1 to cast with a reroll of any dice I want - to get a 7? I think we are well over 75% at that point. Eldar psychic is top notch.
Yeah because everyone runs Ulthwe and not Alaitoc.
And good luck getting in range without getting blown out of the water. Stop acting like competitive marine lists don't feature 20+ scout snipers, which will drop a psyker effortlessly. Also funny is the Knight missile that Imperium has, to blow any character off of the table.
Dark Eldar don't function without doom, or wound rerolls. Stop acting like they do.
I'm not on board with nerfing dark eldar. The most problematic stuff in eldar +de lists is the eldar or ynnari, not the DE.
If you nerf blasters and disintigrators DE are back on the garbage heap, without question.
Marmatag wrote: Yeah because everyone runs Ulthwe and not Alaitoc.
And good luck getting in range without getting blown out of the water. Stop acting like competitive marine lists don't feature 20+ scout snipers, which will drop a psyker effortlessly. Also funny is the Knight missile that Imperium has, to blow any character off of the table.
Dark Eldar don't function without doom, or wound rerolls. Stop acting like they do.
I'm not on board with nerfing dark eldar. The most problematic stuff in eldar +de lists is the eldar or ynnari, not the DE.
If you nerf blasters and disintigrators DE are back on the garbage heap, without question.
Okay I didn't say that DE can take on Castellans. Nothing can - it's broken as feth. Well Harlie bikes can...
Snipe scouts are hilariously bad. My flayed skull ravagers remove them at will and they don't even get a save. Literally the same dice to remove sniper scouts as it is to remove 4 point gaurdsmen.
Ravagers are top tier. Maybe not as flashy as certain units - but always reliable. 9 Effective range 50, S5, AP-3, D2 shots is awesome versus just about anything more expensive than Ork boyz. 10 wounds with T6, 4+/5++/6+++ is also comically cheap on the defensive side.
Grots and Talos with 4++ are also top tier.
Regular Kabalites are not that great, but in conjunction with venoms (-1 to hit, T5, 4+5++/6+++) you have an incredibly fast unit for grabbing objectives, sniping key units/characters, and generally belying their apparently easiness to kill. Not convinced they are broken though - they don't appear that much in tournaments.
Kabalites on their own are certainly not that great - in part despite speculating about it, I have yet to see 100, or 200 on a table. (And I can't be bothered to buy that many for a gimmick list that might suck). Most people take 15-30 max so its hard to see how they are really a key feature.
Dissies should go up 5 points, the 4++ should be changed to rerolling invuls of 1. I feel that would make DE reaonably good, but only at a level other armies should emulate.
As said I'd like to nuke soup from space, but every DE list benefits from having Eldar psychics. It will typically benefit from Harlie haywire bikers too.
LOL yeah, okay. When your vehicles stop getting a save altogether in melee, let me know. Being wounded by custodes on 3s in melee versus 5s is a colossal mind crushing difference. If Dark Eldar had a repulsor tank we would all be taking it.
Smash captain wounds all our vehicles on 2 and we don't get a save. For the cost of a ravager you can delete a ravager.
And it's not like you can't just add a Castellan to your list. WTF am i gonna do against Cawls' Wrath? Hell even a Valiant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote: Ravagers are top tier. Maybe not as flashy as certain units - but always reliable. 9 Effective range 50, S5, AP-3, D2 shots is awesome versus just about anything more expensive than Ork boyz. 10 wounds with T6, 4+/5++/6+++ is also comically cheap on the defensive side.
Ravagers are good. No one is denying that.
Remember DE vehicles only get a 5++ in shooting. And the 6+++ is only if you're Kabal of the Black Heart, not everyone does this, especially in the context of soup, as the extra range is preferred.
There are plenty of counters to these vehicles.
Eldar lists bring Hemlock Wraithfights for a reason. It's like 100 points more, for Flying, -2 to hit, 2d3 auto hits -4, 2 damage, full psychic including d3/d6 smite, can attack any area on the board thanks to its insane pivot + move + pivot.
You generally don't see ravagers in eldar soup for a reason. Better options exist.
Marmatag wrote: LOL yeah, okay. When your vehicles stop getting a save altogether in melee, let me know. Being wounded by custodes on 3s in melee versus 5s is a colossal mind crushing difference. If Dark Eldar had a repulsor tank we would all be taking it.
Smash captain wounds all our vehicles on 2 and we don't get a save. For the cost of a ravager you can delete a ravager.
And it's not like you can't just add a Castellan to your list. WTF am i gonna do against Cawls' Wrath? Hell even a Valiant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote: Ravagers are top tier. Maybe not as flashy as certain units - but always reliable. 9 Effective range 50, S5, AP-3, D2 shots is awesome versus just about anything more expensive than Ork boyz. 10 wounds with T6, 4+/5++/6+++ is also comically cheap on the defensive side.
Ravagers are good. No one is denying that.
Remember DE vehicles only get a 5++ in shooting.
And the 6+++ is only if you're Kabal of the Black Heart, not everyone does this, especially in the context of soup, as the extra range is preferred.
There are plenty of counters to these vehicles.
Smash captains and casteallans need nerfs - you've said it yourself that these units were not dealt with properly. Perhaps the castellan will go up to a reasonable price of say 720-750 points. Perhaps smash captains can start paying a reasonable cost for their gear or something. IDK. Smash captain is still effing busted.
You do see ravagers in Eldar soup. Pretty much always unless you move into a more dedicated DE force focused on Coven units.
Archon, 3 ravagers, Black Heart.This is the most efficient way of getting Agents of Vect - which, even after its nerf, is such a powerful ability that not having it is just... weird.
Tyel wrote: You do see ravagers in Eldar soup. Pretty much always unless you move into a more dedicated DE force focused on Coven units.
Archon, 3 ravagers, Black Heart.This is the most efficient way of getting Agents of Vect - which, even after its nerf, is such a powerful ability that not having it is just... weird.
Hemlocks are good too - but you know, take both.
But why though, Ynnari Spears, or Dark Reapers are just better.
Soulburst your Guided Reapers with the strength 5 profile. 40 shots, s5, -2, 2damage rerolling hits, but with more range and a 2+ save from cover, harder to shoot and reach. Fire & fade that gak. Maybe shoot a doomed target.
It boggles my mind you guys must just never go to a tournament. Ravagers are good against marines. That's where the outcry is coming from. Other armies handle it fine.
I don't consider melee a viable solution to drukhari transports. You need to get to the weapons, which means you need to shoot them out of the transports.
Martel732 wrote: I don't consider melee a viable solution to drukhari transports. You need to get to the weapons, which means you need to shoot them out of the transports.
You mean the 1 blaster? lol
And every army that is designed with melee in mind has a credible way to turn 1 charge.
Tyel wrote: You do see ravagers in Eldar soup. Pretty much always unless you move into a more dedicated DE force focused on Coven units.
Archon, 3 ravagers, Black Heart.This is the most efficient way of getting Agents of Vect - which, even after its nerf, is such a powerful ability that not having it is just... weird.
Hemlocks are good too - but you know, take both.
But why though, Ynnari Spears, or Dark Reapers are just better.
Soulburst your Guided Reapers with the strength 5 profile. 40 shots, s5, -2, 2damage rerolling hits, but with more range and a 2+ save from cover, harder to shoot and reach. Fire & fade that gak. Maybe shoot a doomed target.
It boggles my mind you guys must just never go to a tournament. Ravagers are good against marines. That's where the outcry is coming from. Other armies handle it fine.
i'm going to LVO this year. Maybe I'll see you there. Think I'm going to be playing knights though to be honest. I don't really go to a lot of big tournaments. I go to my local 1's and I do really well.
Martel732 wrote: I don't consider melee a viable solution to drukhari transports. You need to get to the weapons, which means you need to shoot them out of the transports.
You mean the 1 blaster? lol
And every army that is designed with melee in mind has a credible way to turn 1 charge.
Tyel wrote: You do see ravagers in Eldar soup. Pretty much always unless you move into a more dedicated DE force focused on Coven units.
Archon, 3 ravagers, Black Heart.This is the most efficient way of getting Agents of Vect - which, even after its nerf, is such a powerful ability that not having it is just... weird.
Hemlocks are good too - but you know, take both.
But why though, Ynnari Spears, or Dark Reapers are just better.
Soulburst your Guided Reapers with the strength 5 profile. 40 shots, s5, -2, 2damage rerolling hits, but with more range and a 2+ save from cover, harder to shoot and reach. Fire & fade that gak. Maybe shoot a doomed target.
It boggles my mind you guys must just never go to a tournament. Ravagers are good against marines. That's where the outcry is coming from. Other armies handle it fine.
i'm going to LVO this year. Maybe I'll see you there. Think I'm going to be playing knights though to be honest. I don't really go to a lot of big tournaments. I go to my local 1's and I do really well.
Tyel wrote: You do see ravagers in Eldar soup. Pretty much always unless you move into a more dedicated DE force focused on Coven units.
Archon, 3 ravagers, Black Heart.This is the most efficient way of getting Agents of Vect - which, even after its nerf, is such a powerful ability that not having it is just... weird.
Hemlocks are good too - but you know, take both.
But why though, Ynnari Spears, or Dark Reapers are just better.
Soulburst your Guided Reapers with the strength 5 profile. 40 shots, s5, -2, 2damage rerolling hits, but with more range and a 2+ save from cover, harder to shoot and reach. Fire & fade that gak. Maybe shoot a doomed target.
It boggles my mind you guys must just never go to a tournament. Ravagers are good against marines. That's where the outcry is coming from. Other armies handle it fine.
I do go to tournaments - and ravagers are there.
I also look at armies that do well at other tournaments and you know what - and ravagers are there.
Sean Nayden's weird "how do you not get shot off the board" list - no ravagers. Also no Reapers, no Shining Spears.
Player 3 - Eldar Soup, Ravagers.
Player 5. Eldar soup, Ravagers.
Look at Nova, admittedly pre-FAQ, but look at all the ravagers.
If marines are 12 points (which they probably will be) that means 2 Kabalite warriors = 1 marine, and that's entirely fair.
I know folks on the playtesting team, and they haven't given exact details, but my gut feeling based on their comments is that marines are seeing a price drop to 12, and that they'll have exploding rounds on wound 6s. Possibly for AP like storm of fire, or more wounds. Can you take this to the bank? No. It's too early. But don't be shocked if it comes true.
Kabalites are absolutely undercosted. Their gun ignores T! And you never get to shoot them, but rather, their undercosted transport.
This is not true, you have to disembark to get rerolls, and you need rerolls to kill knights. Kabalite warriors are literally a blaster in a squad of dum dums. In the current meta poison is mostly working *against* you, as the ideal target is T3 or a vehicle.
Thats because tournament players are behind the ball on this. Flayed skull is the way to go. If you want AOV you just include black heart fly wing. Flayed skull gives you not only reroll 1's inside the MFING transport but also ignore cover and makes your transports faster.
It's true the current tournament meta has a lot of t3 and vehicals. That is simply because IG and Knights are so bonkers OP. Doesn't change the fact that when DE are facing non knights and IG they are OP as feth.
You need to be Kabal of the Black Heart so your vehicles have a 6+ feel no pain. A 5++ as your only save for vehicles, and being T5, means you're going to be losing a LOT of wounds. I often find myself taking 10 feel no pain saves on a vehicle.
If Dark Eldar weren't paper thin i would absolutely go with Obsidian Rose. Vect is too expensive to use really at all. Although until knights can't resurrect for 2CP you kind of have to be able to vect.
IDK what you mean 10 fnp saves on a vehicle. Sure there will be some times when you make 5 of 10 FNP's on a venom. I'm not saying it's worthless. Just that reroll 1's ignore cover +3 move for all transports is better than 6+ FNP.
So the people that were bringing 200 conscripts lost them in a few months and were unable to bring them now?
LRBT were never demolishing the meta. They are a good unit.... they are nowhere close to being OP. The fact is that on daka the "IG are obviously broken" is always brought up without a shred of evidence other than the appearance on the loyal 32 for CP generation. Until there is some kind of evidence posters need to stop claiming this as common knowledge
Big blobs of guard aren't very good at dealing with banana bikes. Even the whole army in double tap range and FRFSRF would kill maybe 3 of them (they'd do twice as much to a knight). That doesn't mean IS are suddenly terrible. It makes custodes a sharp counter to huge unwieldy blobs. So it comes down to whether or not the tanks can whittle the bikes down before they get too close.
Now that screens can keep stuff off tanks there's a good chance they'll make a come back.
So multiple counters exist in the meta which is why we aren't seeing any of these phantom IG armies placing at tournaments........ What do you call an army that has several easy counters to it floating about.... I sure don't call it broken.
Also all this FAQ is going to do is slightly increase the amount of guard you see taken
instead of the loyal 32 many are going to opt for the cheapest guard brigade soon. You still won't see mono guard crushing tournament after tournament because they simply cant
The big winner of the FAQ is Ynnari who (thanks to soul burst) is the only army in the game that can easily and effectively jump screens left and right.
A brigade/or batallion of catachans or cadians is probably the most common detachment in 40k tournaments scene right now. Are you seriously talking about phantom IG?
Phantom IG refering to the mono guard boogie men that haunt dakkas dreams
Xenomancers wrote: Dessie is OPIMO - doesn't mater where it goes. I don't think DL ravagers are OP. Infact - inferior to nightfighter with darklance...
I would say wait until Knights get toned down.
Knights are keeping a lot of the light vehicle counters out of the meta.
