Financial Times (London, England)
May 4, 2007 Friday
London Edition 1
Purge of managers at Games Workshop

BYLINE: By TOM BRAITHWAITE

Games Workshop, the model figurine manufacturer and retailer, is firing managers in an attempt to halt declines in its continental European operation that yesterday caused its second profit warning of the year.

After falling sales in France and Germany, Tom Kirby, chief executive and chairman, said: "I'm as frustrated as hell about it. We strongly believe that these are management issues. That's why we're making management changes."

Shares in the company fell as much as 45 per cent before closing down 67 1/2p at 260p after Games Workshop said its sales and profits for the year to May had fallen short of expectations.

The profit warning came only three weeks after Alan Stewart, a non-executive director of Games Workshop and finance director of WH Smith, sold shares worth Pounds 2.6m at 350p each. Mr Kirby said the sale was above board and had been made to fund a divorce settlement.

To cut costs more aggressively, the company said it would shed 10 per cent of its workforce, close 35 lossmaking stores and reorganise its warehouse and back-office operations to generate about Pounds 7m a year of savings. The programme is expected to cost Pounds 6m, to be accounted for as an exceptional charge.

It also scrapped the final dividend "to avoid placing excessive short-term strain on the group's finances".

Games Workshop profited from the craze surrounding the Lord of the Rings films in 2001-03 as filmlovers snapped up related merchandise from the group's stores. With the passing of the fad, the company has had to refocus on its main Warhammer brand, but has been unsuccessful in replacing lost sales in France and Germany.

"The thing we're doing badly is we're not replacing those independent stockists who stopped stocking us after Lord of the Rings," said Mr Kirby.

He added that managers in the main markets of the UK and Australia had been more successful.

In January, Mr Kirby blamed a combination ofbad management and dwindling sales of Lord of the Rings products for a profit warning.

Funny about blaming LotR for the 'profit warning,' but I'd wager alienating and losing the support of independant retailers is indeed a major factor ...

- Boss Salvage

As Tazok bluntly noted, it's Kirby & Co that needs some jettisoning. LotR is the reason for the profit warning? Four years after the films left the theaters? Uhh.... Right...

"He added that managers in the main markets of the UK and Australia had been more successful."

Huh?

Australia is a main market (while Europe and North America aren't)?

You claim victories where you can find them.

Hey were is the guy that assured us GW is not axeing anyone?

Being axed?

Talk about mixed emotions, selling your GW shares and getting a great deal for them, but having to do it for a divorce. I would have dropped off a bunch of sprues at my ex-wife's house as equity.

"You sent me a million friggin toy soldiers!"

"Yeah, but each of those is worth 5 quid, you made out."

- Oaka

Well, I didn't really expect Tom Kirby to fire himself...

Good to see the "real" faults - bad management and dwindling LOTR.

Funny I thought it would have been:

1. Lacklustre sculpting
2. Alienation of gaming community
3. Competing markets
4. Continual shafting of customers that bought "varient" games the won't be supported, now hardly anyone would touch another one with a 10 foot pole.
5. Pathetic monthly toilet paper (WD mag)
6. Overpriced (yes Overpriced) plastic miniatures (pricing based on points values)
7. Disilusioned hobbyists that are playing other gaming systems for substance
8. Treating hobbyists as idiots
9. GW viewed as the pokemon of wargaming

Just my view anyway, but I don't think firing managers is going to change anything when its the product that stinks, you could put the best manager on earth in a shop but if he is selling sheep brains at a fastfood takeout he isn't going to get ahead no matter how good he is.

Jezza-

I don't think it is the product that stinks. Nor is it lower level mamagement. The pricing and the way GW deals with the indies is to blame. That all comes from upper management. They are creating problems and then blaming everything in sight.

But no, it isn't the product... it's the policies.

Though I will agree with the issue of cost per point. Space marines have more than doubled in price when you consider the price per game point issue.

ender502

Perhaps I should have clarified - Harlequins are brilliant sculpts, some other ranges marines for exmple have awesome art but then when i look at the figures i see lego men (in the plastic range especially dark angels). The 40k rules are dumbed down and now codexs are getting dumbed down.

The background and IP is great just the execution is getting crappier and crappier.

I agree. It's definitely the upper management and the policies with the independent retailers (aka their enemies/competition).

Lower level management can be replaced on fairly short order, and those problems are easy to solve. However it's the hirer level management that needs the shake up; you can't put a crown on a root canal to make the pain go away.

The cream always rises to the top.
So does the gak.
It is impossible to separate the two,
and stirring the pot only makes things worse.
-Anonymous

look into ur local gw store nowadays. almost 70% of the people inside are under the age of 16. gw is changing their rules to reflect this. i started 40k when i was in 7th grade (junior in college now) and the rules were hard as hell to understand! it was a "grown up" game, and i thought it was cool that i played (abeit poorly) a grownups game. now, its the opposite. you can make a full list in your freaking head and write it down in minutes. to me, thats not too fun specially with the nerfing of the rules...

What I don't get is why the board hasn't fired Kirby, and brought on someone who with restructuring experience (of a niche market company that has pissed off it's cult fan base).

I don't blame Kirby or anyone else at GW -- I blame the board of directors. They should have axed him a long time ago.

Posted By Dice Monkey on 05/11/2007 2:38 PM
Hey were is the guy that assured us GW is not axeing anyone?

Do you mean in this thread?:
www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/15/postid/163315/view/topic/Default.aspx

In hi9s defence, he did say it wasnt happening in North America. And it appears that it isnt happening in North America.

But you have to wonder how long it will be before GW as a company makes cutbacks at large throughout their empi...er... corporation internationally.

I wonder if it is because GW has flooded the european market and the point of saturation no longer makes them soluble economically? Pure conjecture of course. It doesnt appear that the market here is much better if at all, so perhaps the same might happen in North America as well.... I guess we will find out shortly. The end of the fiscal year reports are due soon.

Thanks for the heads up, Tazok. We knew there were to be 10% cutbacks, but werent sure until now where those cutbacks were going to be taken from at the time of the second profit warning.

It seems to me that a lot of you guys are making a lot of assumptions about this. Do any of you live in France or Germany where the management is being replaced and stores are being closed? Do you know for a fact that there isn't any problem with management there and that it really is the product that has the problem when all other regions seem to be doing fine?

It reminds me of the thread about that higher up selling his stock and people were talking about rats and sinking ships etc etc and it turns out he just needed money for his divorce settlement.

Don't be so quick to assume that GW is dead. Yes they have some serious waking up to do but I doubt that they are flat out lieing about the source of their problems in continental europe. Sure it may not be the entire issue, but you never know, the managers over there in those 35 bad stores might actually suck.

Posted By Hellfury on 05/11/2007 9:57 PM


I wonder if it is because GW has flooded the european market and the point of saturation no longer makes them soluble economically? Pure conjecture of course. It doesnt appear that the market here is much better if at all, so perhaps the same might happen in North America as well.... I guess we will find out shortly. The end of the fiscal year reports are due soon.

Well if GW's rules are badly written now, I can only imagine what playing poorly translated versions of them would be like: "In Assault Phase beginning, unleash power fist; for great vengeance. With 3+ hit dice roll to destruction. Space Marine happens. Then make Leadership."

As a matter of fact I do live in Germany and yes they took quite a beating from other systems. From our point of view it´s the rules and the management that stinks.

Posted By Wayfarer on 05/11/2007 10:07 PM


Don't be so quick to assume that GW is dead.

Not trying to be a butthead mate, but who is assuming GW is dead?  Not trying to defend anyone but myself, but I am not seeing it in this thread thus far.

But you do have a point about the european POV. This is, for the most part with a few exceptions, a north american centric board with not much perspective from the european arena. The management in europe may well be pants, but if management is anything like it is here in the states, theyre probably getting canned for not making enormous quotas. Again pure conjecture, but crap does roll down hill, especially in this instance.

So how long until Ted Kirby fires the whole studio and has to do all the sculpting and rules development himself?

Duncan: Are the rules translated as poorly as Asmodais joke rules?

Hellfury: It's more adrressing the usual attitude that appears in these threads than a specific post or two. You have to admit that lately (well past few years or so) there is a lot of sky-is-falling sort of attitude permeating the internet.


As for why GW has kept it's upper management, well, that's a problem with every corporation. Profits will have to hit such a low that another company snatches GW up before any sweeping changes occur I think. Then again I'm no MBA.

Posted By Wayfarer on 05/11/2007 11:01 PM

Hellfury: It's more adrressing the usual attitude that appears in these threads than a specific post or two. You have to admit that lately (well past few years or so) there is a lot of sky-is-falling sort of attitude permeating the internet.

Perhaps, but then again it may be better to address what is being said now, than to dredge up perceived notions about the past. As in, not making pre-emptive remarks about imaginary assumptions.

I did. Just because I include a little extra doesn't invalidate the rest.

I've been buying GW products on / off since the late 80s early 90s.....and I must say, they've certainly moved on, but not much.

I totally agree with the statement regarding the younger element in the hobby, I guess we need the younger players, because these are the players of the future, but right now I have disposable income that I will probably never spend in a GW bricks and mortar. Who wants to be seen as a freak hanging out with 12 year olds? Why would you want to hang out with 12 year olds that weren't part of your immediate family? So while GW are providing an outlet for the younger generations, they are alienating the older ( I'm 29yrs ) more affluent generations.

Added to this the poor sculpting ( compared to Rackham, Wyrd, Infinity ) the heavy reliance on what is considered by most to be cheap materials ( plastics ) and you have a failing product.

The WH40K I.P has awesome potential, but GW isn't the company to unlock that potential. At one point yes, but now I don't belive so.

GW has gotten too big, and has forgotten ( in my opinion ) the true values of the hobby. When all you consider is the bottom line, then it stops being a hobby and becomes a business.

I know how Kirby went mad - he though GW was selling wargames until, one day, he opened a Warhammer 40'000 rulebook.

GW has been a business for a long time. So has every other mini manufacurer.

This can't be true. GW sells miniatures. Kirby knows this, he said it. The game is second fiddle.

2.5 Million Pounds is alot for a divorce settlement don't you think?

And even if it isn't, you can't deny that the stock tanked soon after the sale. It's very suspicious either way you look at it.

Oh those crazy European men with their medieval management techniques!

This can't be true. GW sells miniatures. Kirby knows this, he said it. The game is second fiddle.

And there in lies the problem. No one is going to buy overpriced models for a game with major flaws....

Fix the game and the models might sell....

>>And there in lies the problem. No one is going to buy overpriced models for a game with major flaws....

>>Fix the game and the models might sell....

Carmachu is right.

GW is unusual compared to other wargame companies because GW produce figures and rules that are highly tailored to each other. (WHFB less so than 40K but still quite a lot.)

You'd never buy either of them if you weren't going to buy them both. When things are going well this is a strength because GW get a double dose of users' cash, plus some extra on terrain bits, paint and so on, and everything happens in GW shops. But when things start going badly, it's a serious weakness, compounded by the huge amount of retail space they maintain.

Now they have problems of quality and/or cost with their rules and their minis.

Posted By Zubbiefish on 05/12/2007 5:54 AM
GW has been a business for a long time. So has every other mini manufacurer.

Buh?  'A long time'?  I think I must ask you, how do you define a long time?

When I started in the hobby, I was buying Heritage Lord of the Rings figures.  Where are they now?  Where are the members of their cohort- Grenadier, Ral Partha, Minifigs, Microarmor, Marauder & Citadel?   Gone, like wind on the meadow, like snow on the mountain.  We shall not see their like again.  Now we have Old Glory, Battlefront, Privateer Press, Games Workshop (I know, Citadel/Marauder, I know...  dramatic license) Rackham, Corvus Belli, and Reaper. 

As to the topic at hand: I think Kirby is in trouble.  I am sure the Board is unpleased with his performance.  Muchly unpleased.  Hence the rather desperate attempt to improve the profitablility by cutting costs.  If this RIF doesn't work, look for another round of firings/closings in the third or fourth quarter, this time in the UK.  And if that doesn't work, look for Kirby to be fired.  The oracle hath speakethed.  Heed.

The way they treat the non-GW carriers is kind of abyssmal. A friend and I had a little store going a few years ago and when we tried to set up terms with GW they quoted us a percentage that was barely better than Alliance Games was offering and we had to place an initial order for one of everthing. The price quote was something like $10K. Now, this isn't that massive an investment for a real store but we were a couple of guys trying to make a start on literally a shoe string budget. Basically, they want to be the only source for their product, which is great but their product is too cost prohibitive to entice new players. I know this is the same arguement everyone throws up but people could really get into the game for a hundred dollars more people might. As it stands they keep raising the price on all the basics so how do new people break in? They don't.

Having said that, I disagree with the statement earlier in this thread that the sculpts are bad. Having played for just a few years I've seen most of the models get better and better. Not all, mind you, but enough to impress me from a quality standpoint. I do agree that the improvment in quality does not justify the continual price hikes. Bringing this back round to the point, it's cost cost cost that is hurting their sales and therefore hurting their stock. Sucky managers or not, the product just isn't as sexy when the price keeps rising. Just my two cents

Seth

Posted By Wayfarer on 05/11/2007 10:07 PM

Don't be so quick to assume that GW is dead. Yes they have some serious waking up to do but I doubt that they are flat out lieing about the source of their problems in continental europe. Sure it may not be the entire issue, but you never know, the managers over there in those 35 bad stores might actually suck.

I'm too good at maths, so I could be wrong here, but what are the odds of 35 individual managers being able to screw up GW in mainland Europe?

Whilst I am at it  Is there not the small possiblity that the market for GW stuff has reached saturation point and that the churn rate / new gamers is dropping?

I mean I'm 38 years old and have 3 x 40K armies, and apart from tweaking them I'm unlikely to do a complete army again. I sold 2 x 40k armies and a dwarf army because I didn't have the time to play with them.

Currently I'm in the middle of building 2 x Confrontation forces, 1 Warmachine faction, a Hordes faction, expanding my Urban War force to Metroplis scale as well as looking to build up my AT43 armies.

So I've not gone off gaming, I'm just interested in other systems. 40k has gone stale for me and although the rules are ok and work, I would like a more complex version of them, something that brings a challenge back in to gaming. 

Mind the fact that you can get up and going with the systems quickly and cheaply helps.

Posted By Kilkrazy on 05/12/2007 7:21 AM
>>And there in lies the problem. No one is going to buy overpriced models for a game with major flaws....

>>Fix the game and the models might sell....

Carmachu is right.

GW is unusual compared to other wargame companies because GW produce figures and rules that are highly tailored to each other. (WHFB less so than 40K but still quite a lot.)

You'd never buy either of them if you weren't going to buy them both. When things are going well this is a strength because GW get a double dose of users' cash, plus some extra on terrain bits, paint and so on, and everything happens in GW shops. But when things start going badly, it's a serious weakness, compounded by the huge amount of retail space they maintain.

Now they have problems of quality and/or cost with their rules and their minis.

I dont particularly find many of warmachines models as good looking as GW's. However, the game is solid, so the models I do buy to play with.

 

Rackham's models are pretty much better GW's. But the game is as great...so by GW's logic....rackham should be outselling everyone because they have pretty models.

 

Doesnt work that way.

Well, you can only buy so many space marines before you've "caught them all" so to speak.
Maybe a little diversity in the release schedual would do them some good.
It's kind of grimly satisfying to see all this, but I hope they fix this problem and move forward.

Job cuts are happening in the UK as well as "mainland Europe".  The 12 Cell (Area) Managers are allegedly being sacked and having to reapply for 6 remaining jobs.  Also there is already an opportunistic programme of shutting stores that are no longer profitable - Enfield was the latest when the landlord upped the rent.

Posted By Wolfstan on 05/12/2007 9:56 AM

Posted By Wayfarer on 05/11/2007 10:07 PM

Don't be so quick to assume that GW is dead. Yes they have some serious waking up to do but I doubt that they are flat out lieing about the source of their problems in continental europe. Sure it may not be the entire issue, but you never know, the managers over there in those 35 bad stores might actually suck.

I'm too good at maths, so I could be wrong here, but what are the odds of 35 individual managers being able to screw up GW in mainland Europe?

Out of how big a number?  Could be quite good odds.  They could also just be cutting the bottom-performing 10%-25% (or whatever percentage they feel like).   Even if it's not that large a total number of stores, 35 managers might represent 20-odd who might have been trained/managed in turn by a bad regional guy, and a few other miscellaneous folks they considered to be less than competent.

Or were you just doubting the likelihood that a certain group of managers was responsible for a larger problem with GW in the region?  That makes more sense, but if they are a large enough percentage of the sales in that area, and they really are mismanaging their sales operations, they certainly could create a big problem for the company.

Hmmm.
How long do they wait before deciding "no longer profitable" I wonder?

I dunno, if it's anything like that dead horse "LOTR Bubble" excuse they've been flogging for three years now it could be quite some time. As I've said before, I really, really do not want GW to fail, but I think the only way the root of the problem (Kirby & Co.) will get flushed out is if this slump continues (perhaps to the point of a hostile takeover, which could be disastrous). Despite the problems GW stubbornly refuses to wake the hell up and make the necessary changes to re-connect with their disgruntled core customer base.

I am sure I posted something about this a bout 6 months ago or sooner but I was told by my rep when I was working at a Brick and Mortar shop that GW had extended its contract with the LOTR folks. for like 8 more years! He told me that LOTR was the 3rd "core" game and it was going no where. So buy that itself GW refuses to acknowledge that problem. I dont think iLOTR is the sole cause of this crazyness but it could not have helped when the bubble broke. I just dont see why you would hold on to some thing like that in the face of these sort of problems. I guess they are looking foward to some time in the future but I cant see what they are seeing.

I think the free BA codex (which is going to be available on the GW website after being published in WD) is a step in the right direction. The BA codex honestly seems pretty well balanced, both as compared to their old list, and (more tellingly) as compared to the missteps in the DA codex. It's a long way from perfect, but it seems a sign that they're listening to some feedback. Improved rules, made available for free, are a nice gesture to the fans.

I agree with you there, even if my cynic GW hating side is screaming "MORE POWER ARMOURED ARMIES?".
It is nice and balanced, and the Blood Angels have been a while without an update. Free stuff is always good too- like the specialist games stuff.
I'd love to see better previews etc, like WoTC do with their miniatures- they give official previews and really build up excitement about the next release.
It's a good strategy I think.

It wasn't long ago that GW were bleating that they wern't going to put any army lists, in the WD mag and they weren't allowed in Tournaments unless it was a CODEX publication.

So yet again they change their merry tune.

I wish they'd just release 1 big Space Marine codex with all the chapters in it and be done with it.

I'd swear the managment is run by a bunch of bipolar people.

I have to second Jezza. Didnt Jervis or someone say, no more WD lists? I'm confused in what GW's doing.

Free playtesting like a smart company I hope. It'll probably be their highest selling WD in years also.

I think GW is starting to figure out that part of their struggles is that they are very slow in getting armies out.  Many players are hesitant to buy models for their current armies until their new 'dex comes out.  However,the new BA list is going to spur players of that army to buy new stuff,mainly because a lot of units that were useless to them before,like Terminators and Devastators,are very viable in their new list,so current players will want to get those.  Others may be going out and stocking up on Jump Troops and such.  Releasing lists in WD is going to help GW by stimulating purchases for those lists.

All in all,I don't really see 40k dying.  40k is to minis games what AD&D was to rpg's.  Yeah,the rules aren't the best and are clunky in parts,but it still has a huge following and is played heavily.  It can stand a massive revision,a'la D&D 3.0,but I can't see it dying.  I think GW is starting realize that it's core rules are too simplified,and that's part of the reason for releases like City Fight and the forthcoming Apocalypse. 

Anyone who has been in a company suffering a round of redundancies will know that the axe does not fall on the incompetent, it falls on the people who are disliked by the people in charge of choosing the victims. In this way, highly competent staff are often canned by incompetent line managers.

So GW's cuts are unlikely to improve performance at the coal face, though they will reduce staff costs at the bottom line (this must be offset against the generous redundancy payments that workers get in most European countries.)

If GW's problems are more deepseated than just a few badly performing stores, the cuts will do nothing at all in the long term.

I know several people who have quit the game because of the rumors surrounding the possible rewrite of the Space Marine codex. They spent a lot of money to build their new armies and now they have to worry about GW nerfing it. With all the other armies that really really need a new codex, such as orks, I cannot blame them at all.

- Greenie

Another Gem of GW marketing I went to a Games Day in England a few years back and there were about 6 of us at a Mordheim table (all of us 20-25) and were told by the fella at the table we had to Scream and yell out when rolling dice and killing things. We said "what" and he said "sorry guys I have to tell you to do it" .
I personally couldn't have thought of a better way to alienate older games who don't want to carry on like pork chops.
This was a few years ago, do you still have to scream out and carry on at their games days?

Yep. Mandatory Waaagh every 5 minutes. That's why this year I'm gonna be working at Games Day (Kommando program) and I'll be at the modelling tables, far away from the Big Game waaghfest.

EDIT: Deleted for being a slow.

Posted By Green Bloater on 05/13/2007 9:33 AM
I know several people who have quit the game because of the rumors surrounding the possible rewrite of the Space Marine codex. They spent a lot of money to build their new armies and now they have to worry about GW nerfing it. With all the other armies that really really need a new codex, such as orks, I cannot blame them at all.

- Greenie

  That's funny, because they sound like complete morons to me.  They're quitting the game (which they presumably enjoy) because of a rumor that GW will be releasing a new Codex, which they are not obligated to buy anyway. 

Yep. It seems like a bit of an over-reaction. Though I suppose that they might be able to get a better return selling on EBay now than in a couple years when the new SM book comes out and there's a glut of people leaving the hobby, driving down prices.

Aside from that, I don't see any reason not to wait and see.

Posted By Whatever on 05/12/2007 9:49 PM

However,the new BA list is going to spur players of that army to buy new stuff,mainly because a lot of units that were useless to them before,like Terminators and Devastators,are very viable in their new list,so current players will want to get those.  Others may be going out and stocking up on Jump Troops and such.  Releasing lists in WD is going to help GW by stimulating purchases for those lists.

Exactly.  This is why when the BA codex finally comes out assault squads will be back in Fast Attack.  What?  You bought a whole bunch of jump packs?  Oops!

Then they will release a SW list in White Dwarf that makes wolf scouts Troops and blood claws Elites.  And then a DA list that makes predator destructors Troops, scouts Heavy Support, tactical squads Elites, and vindicators HQ.

"Whaa...wtf?...I will give you something to yell and scream about buddy!"

Seriously, that is the most ridiculous quote I've heard about a GW Event. Instant Gold.

And answering a question a few pages back: The german codecies are decently translated. Nothing to criticize there. Doens't make the rules better, but still. I have the feeling that the translators call some of the Uk guys and ask if they either meant the rule that way or another way (aka. rule queries) and write it in german accordingly. Apart from that, I try to get the english version of all the codecies and rulebooks.

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. Abadabadoodaddon gave me an idea: Why no Armored Company Marines? Wouldn't that boost vehicle sells for marines?

Posted By Pariah Press on 05/13/2007 12:31 PM

Posted By Green Bloater on 05/13/2007 9:33 AM
I know several people who have quit the game because of the rumors surrounding the possible rewrite of the Space Marine codex. They spent a lot of money to build their new armies and now they have to worry about GW nerfing it. With all the other armies that really really need a new codex, such as orks, I cannot blame them at all.

- Greenie

  That's funny, because they sound like complete morons to me.  They're quitting the game (which they presumably enjoy) because of a rumor that GW will be releasing a new Codex, which they are not obligated to buy anyway. 

I wonder if those same people would have quit if GW was deciding that the redone Space Marine codex was going to get buffed up even more than it already is?  Sounds like disgruntled "power gamers" to me,and no big loss to the gaming community as a whole.

I mean seriously,people complain about "obsolete" minis when lists get redone,but three-quarters of the time the minis aren't unusable,just sub-optimal.  Yeah,I've been burned on IG Griffons and Leman-Russ Exterminators,but very rarely have I seen this happen.  So these Marine players will have to buy a couple boxes of troops to glue some Boltgun guys together so they can do 10-man Las/Plas instead of 5-man Las/Plas.  Or they'll have to actually field that second box of Termies they bought just to get a second Assault Cannon to get some use out of it.  My heart cries for them,it really does.  It's the price people pay for being out there on the competitive edge of any game.  40k isn't nearly as bad as CCG's or CMG's,where a year after you've bought cards/minis,80-90% of what you bought is worthless in competitive games.

Posted By Schepp himself on 05/13/2007 2:38 PM
I have the feeling that the translators call some of the Uk guys and ask if they either meant the rule that way or another way (aka. rule queries) and write it in german accordingly.

Really?  I dunno, that almost sounds a little too much like GW having its act together.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if the translators had to call up the mail order trolls instead.  Or D6 it.

Which means more money than the SHOULD have to spend on an army that was previously "done".

I fear for my sisters army.

Your sister plays 40k? Cool. How often does she kick you around the table?

Posted By mikhaila on 05/13/2007 6:03 PM
Your sister plays 40k? Cool. How often does she kick you around the table?

Carmen's sister whispers into my ear every morning in bed about how he cant fight his way out of a wet paper bag, tactically...

Seriously though, I fear for the sisters as well. They were the epitome of balance during the latter 3rd ed, early 4th ed era. I cant see them getting much more unperpowered.

I guess the only direction they can go, is up... but with GW, ya never know until the ax falls.

That's assuming they even continue to support sisters.  I could certainly see them going to mail order only and then dying a slow death.  But maybe if GW really does make an inquisition codex covering all 3 branches they'll include rules for sisters.  Or maybe they'll just give inquisitorial stormtroopers the option to upgrade their hellguns and carapace armor to bolters and power armor for +5 pts each or some such nonsense.  Have fun!

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 05/14/2007 1:18 AM

That's assuming they even continue to support sisters.  I could certainly see them going to mail order only and then dying a slow death.  But maybe if GW really does make an inquisition codex covering all 3 branches they'll include rules for sisters.  Or maybe they'll just give inquisitorial stormtroopers the option to upgrade their hellguns and carapace armor to bolters and power armor for +5 pts each or some such nonsense.  Have fun!

  But only if you take St. Celestine as your HQ choice. 

Posted By Kilkrazy on 05/12/2007 7:21 AM


GW is unusual compared to other wargame companies because GW produce figures and rules that are highly tailored to each other. (WHFB less so than 40K but still quite a lot.)

You'd never buy either of them if you weren't going to buy them both.

 

That's not true, I used to buy lots of minis and no games. There are a lot of painters out there.

Posted By Wayfarer on 05/12/2007 9:44 PM
Free playtesting like a smart company I hope. It'll probably be their highest selling WD in years also.

Smartest thing they've done in years, too (along with Cities of Death).  It'll drive some SM sales, WD sales, and maybe more importantly, make players feel that something is happening with other armies and in the game in general. 

I understand the business reasons for their release schedule, but I think they're finding it's just too hard to maintain enthusiasm for the game when players are waiting months and years for an army release that interests them.

I work as an Engineer, designing various engine parts for manufacture.  One thing I can say is that if you continue to produce the same product for a long time, you expect to see the cost per part to go down, not up.

The theory is that suppliers should be getting more efficient.  Faster set ups, shorter runs, less scrap, etc etc.

So why does the cost of an unchanged plastiic kit keep going up each year?

I can almost understand the cost creep of new kits, but not really.  A plastic injectiion mold costs 30-50 thousand dollars in the US, and is good when properly serviced for litterally hundred of thousands of parts.

So if we assume a design team has a total salary of $250k/year total, for 4 or 5 guys, who churn out say 10 kits per year, that is $25k per kit, at the extreme high end.  Add in the $50k high end of a mold, so that is $75k total in kit over head.  Since I am being generous, lets assume they only sell 10 thousand of that particular kit.  7.5$ per kit.  Incidental costs could be as high as 5$.  One unskilled barely literate operator can monitor 6-8 automated machines for 8 hours, banging out hundreds of parts per hour, shipping and storage costs should be low...  so you are looking at $12.50 for the cost of a very expensive kit.

To do really well, a company hopes for 40% margin, so a very expensive kit should cost $20.83.  Or $19.99 for an approximate standard price.

Oh yeah, it is the managers in Europe that are hurting sales.  Not the 35$ troops boxes.

--------

Maybe GW will learn a lesson from themselves and start putting warhammer, and 40k into LIVING RULEBOOKS online, including codexes.  You go to a tournament, and a rule is unclear to people, ta da, update it.

They could still sell the books.  And admitedly they would loose some in sales, but for the most part, the people who will download a codex and use it exclusively are mostly doing so already, illegaly.  Most, not all, but most people who play a particular army will want to have a copy of their rules on hand, not on computer.

Yay for continuous rules updates.  Yay for answers to ambiguity.

And hell, if they hire some decent programmers (admitedly a cost so maybe 24.99 for the above mentioned kit box) they could pass the rules through some style sheet software, and you could have the old format, or the new format, or god-emperor forbid,  user defined formats.

-------

And in regards to the Alleged New Space Marine Codex on the horizon.  I am worried, not because my Assault Cannons are going away, but because I have a bunch of conversions which are about to be invalidated, and I had more planned.  Before I saw the rumor I had a 50$ bits order for GW and another for BWB to finally finish all my squads out the way I wanted.

Here comes my assault sargeant with a thunder hammer, oh, what do you mean I may not be able to take that...

Here is my scout sargeant with a storm bolter.. that either

How about the dev sargeant with the combi-bolter... yay

Vet Squad sarge with master crafted lightning claw and bolter-melta...  well crap

Yes, literally every sarge in my army is a conversion, and how many of them will still be legal in a new style list?  I don't play tournaments, I don't play to win at all costs, I just play for fun, with a characterful army.

I might get lucky, maybe they will add Thunder hammers as an option across the board, and have them with points broken out for how effective the model would be with them.  I am not confident. 

 

Ok, Rant over

Posted By Broon on 05/14/2007 4:40 AM

Posted By Kilkrazy on 05/12/2007 7:21 AM


GW is unusual compared to other wargame companies because GW produce figures and rules that are highly tailored to each other. (WHFB less so than 40K but still quite a lot.)

You'd never buy either of them if you weren't going to buy them both.

 

That's not true, I used to buy lots of minis and no games. There are a lot of painters out there.

 

Would you seriously buy -another- marine, just to paint?

That's where Tom Kirby needs to go, next.  He needs to go to the studio, slap all the sculpters, take away all their boxes of plastic space marines, throw them in the garbage and say:

"Sculpt me something that doesn't look exaclty like all the other crap you've produced for the last five years.  Why can't you all be more like Jes?  And Jes, I've canned the manager that has kept blocking your staff-car and it's been green-lighted."

I'm biased in this regard.  I was never interested in the power-armored marine.  I came from the other faction, the tread-head, who liked the tanks, vehicles, and big guns.  Aside from Forgeworld, there has been nothing produced by Games Buckshot in the last five years that was for me.

"Oh, and Jes, we need a crazy tentacle-oriented Tyranid monster to grab the fat anime fan-boy demo, a corsetted gun-nun with incindiary rocket-launcher, and... and... what if we had this ork, but he was riding on a giant squig... and the squig had these huge tusks and ahh, strapped to both the tusks were gretchin and the gretchin both had big shootas... oh well, I'll let you work out the details on that one."

Posted By Dragonmann on 05/14/2007 6:53 AM
So why does the cost of an unchanged plastiic kit keep going up each year? 

Because GW :heart:  $$$.

Posted By Dragonmann on 05/14/2007 6:53 AM
Yes, literally every sarge in my army is a conversion, and how many of them will still be legal in a new style list? 

Well, that's what you get for converting.  I hope you learned your lesson.  And let this be a lesson to all of you.  If you can't make it with the parts provided in the box, don't expect it to be an option in the future.  This is to make 40K more accessible to new players.

Afterall - why should your srg get to have lightning claws?  Just because you have a credit card and can order bits online?  One day when I'm bigger I'm gonna have a credit card too!!!!  And then I'm gonna go on the internets and not even ask mommy first!!!!!!!

See?  This is fun and balanced for everyone.

:(

Credit Card?  That conversion tool a power fist, 3 of the tines off an old dozer blade, a fist insgnia from the very old Imperial fists army box, and hours and housrs of learning how to use putty to sculpt for the first time.

Oh and for everyones amusement, I scratch built a landraider, based on the epic model, using the bits from a leman russ, a rhino, and a chimera.  Spent hours and hours on it, took it to a store tournament, and about three months later they announced the new land raider was coming.

So why convert, because I am good at it, way better than I am at painting, and if GW isn't gonna support that part of my hobby anymore, I'll find a company who will.

Posted By Dragonmann on 05/14/2007 6:53 AM

So if we assume a design team has a total salary of $250k/year total, for 4 or 5 guys, who churn out say 10 kits per year, that is $25k per kit, at the extreme high end.  Add in the $50k high end of a mold, so that is $75k total in kit over head.  Since I am being generous, lets assume they only sell 10 thousand of that particular kit.  7.5$ per kit.  Incidental costs could be as high as 5$.  One unskilled barely literate operator can monitor 6-8 automated machines for 8 hours, banging out hundreds of parts per hour, shipping and storage costs should be low...  so you are looking at $12.50 for the cost of a very expensive kit.

To do really well, a company hopes for 40% margin, so a very expensive kit should cost $20.83.  Or $19.99 for an approximate standard price.

Oh yeah, it is the managers in Europe that are hurting sales.  Not the 35$ troops boxes.

That's an excellent breakdown on the cost of a kit.  Except you missed a step.

After GW manufacturing gets done taking it's 40%, then the kit is sold to a retail seller (be it indepent or internal to GW).  The retailer is all so looking for a 40% return.  The $20 kit is now marked as MSRP of $33 to allow for the sellers margin.  Which puts the price in the same ball park as GW's actual retail price.

Actually 40% is just an estimated agrigate for both.

For example the company i work for sets the MSRP so that direct sales are a little over 40% (42-45, more if we can sneak it)

To distributers/dealers we only get 10% or so, but we get 10% of a much bigger number.

Some of the stuff we are sourcing through asian crapfacturers we are hitting 70+% margin on direct sales, but that is the exception, and a willingness to take asian crud.

 

 

 

 

Also note that GW has come out and said that manufacturing costs on their plastic kits less than 10% of what they retail them for. To put this in perspective, when GW employees use their ("buy at cost") discount to buy product, GW is still making a profit.

Actually, I think their a bit overpaowered, when played right with the acts of faith, to be honest.

GW just cant get its head out of its ass long enough to see whats really going on. And with blame it on everyone else Kirby at the wheel I'm sure they'll have to fall alot further before any real attempt to turn things around will really get under way, Its sad because I really would like to get back to enjoying many of their games, but I just cant bring myself to handover money and reward them for bad behavior and stupidity. Luckily I have a ton of figs and their games bought before they got to this point, and so do most of the vets, that saturation along with those second hand figs from people getting out of the hobby and the stagnation of new figs and new ideas is really alowwing alot of us to continue playing while not supporting GW, its biting them on the ass in my opinion. And since GW has been churning out more space marines than anything else for a long time now, theres more secondhand marines around for first timers to buy up instead of handing their newbie money over to GW as well. I love it, their tunnel vision on Marines is also biting them on the ass.

good bad and ugly decisions aside, I'm going in to buy some cool models and paint them! (not even space marines!)

Deitpike is right. GW does some damn stupid stuff, but they make some nice minis, so I guess i'm going to keep buying them.

I recently bought some harlequins, because they really are beautiful models and I'm having a blast painting them, but other than that I have my armies and don't feel the need to go out and buy any more models.

GW still does good work sometimes(Cities of Death) but they really need to improve their hobby content.  White Dwarf could be a huge sales booster.  The problem is that it is just one huge advert.  If the articles and battle reports were more in depth, they would appeal to kids and older vets alike.  Reintroducing rules and experimental lists into the systems would make it easier for players to feel like each issue has something for them.  When I look at the magazine and find a five page description of how to paint the Master of the Ravenwing, it seems like it should be free online content.

I like the game, but won't be starting any new armies soon.

White Dwarf is a huge missed opportunity. With the BatReps they could go into detail about their lists, their strategy, and what they did when stuff started to go wrong.

This is instead of taking a Dev Squad with four different heavy weapons just 'cause the new Dev box was released that month.

BYE

I'm glad I started my Exodite project. Having your own miniatures and relying on the count as rule is the best answer to any codex rewrite - just change and adapt. You may even switch to an entirely different book. Custom space marines chapters can do that to a point - I know at least two DA players that will stick to the SM 'dex - but some players will surely cry when GW changes the Traits system.

Oh, and if GW finally detected a "problem" with their Uber-Powerful assault cannon, they could just change it - for example, no more rending on vehicles - and the game balance issue would be solved in the twinkling of an eye. Why a redux one year from now when a single downloadable PDF can solve everything?

Posted By Kotrin on 05/14/2007 11:45 PM

Why a redux one year from now when a single downloadable PDF can solve everything?

Because it makes them money, a chance to re-release the codex as an updated product. New articles in White Dwarf, new items on the release calendar, hobby (ahem) events at stores, maybe even a new bunch of space marine scuplts thrown in for good measure.

Money speaks in GW land. Its just a shame that they don't know what to do with it when they have it, and then go on to lose it all on useless projects. Warhammer online anyone?

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/14/2007 11:32 PM
White Dwarf is a huge missed opportunity. With the BatReps they could go into detail about their lists, their strategy, and what they did when stuff started to go wrong.

This is instead of taking a Dev Squad with four different heavy weapons just 'cause the new Dev box was released that month.

BYE

Given the trend with the new Terminators rules and Codex: DA generally, I wouldn't be surprised if four different heavy weapons became mandatory for Dev Squads in Redux anyway.

Posted By Asmodai on 05/15/2007 10:41 AM

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/14/2007 11:32 PM
White Dwarf is a huge missed opportunity. With the BatReps they could go into detail about their lists, their strategy, and what they did when stuff started to go wrong.

This is instead of taking a Dev Squad with four different heavy weapons just 'cause the new Dev box was released that month.

BYE

Given the trend with the new Terminators rules and Codex: DA generally, I wouldn't be surprised if four different heavy weapons became mandatory for Dev Squads in Redux anyway.

Heh. Given the trend with the new Terminators and Codex: DA generally, I wouldnt be suprised if you only get one heavy weapon for dev squads in Redux anyway. For balance....

Well, what are the contents of the dev squad box?  Maybe they'll do something like:

0-1 marines may replace their bolter with a heavy bolter or missile launcher.

0-1 marines may replace their bolter with a heavy bolter or  lascannon.

0-1 marines may replace their bolter with a multi-melta or plasma cannon.

0-1 marines may replace their bolter with plasma cannon or lascannon.

Posted By RanTheCid on 05/14/2007 8:41 AM

Posted By Dragonmann on 05/14/2007 6:53 AM

So if we assume a design team has a total salary of $250k/year total, for 4 or 5 guys, who churn out say 10 kits per year, that is $25k per kit, at the extreme high end.  Add in the $50k high end of a mold, so that is $75k total in kit over head.  Since I am being generous, lets assume they only sell 10 thousand of that particular kit.  7.5$ per kit.  Incidental costs could be as high as 5$.  One unskilled barely literate operator can monitor 6-8 automated machines for 8 hours, banging out hundreds of parts per hour, shipping and storage costs should be low...  so you are looking at $12.50 for the cost of a very expensive kit.

To do really well, a company hopes for 40% margin, so a very expensive kit should cost $20.83.  Or $19.99 for an approximate standard price.

Oh yeah, it is the managers in Europe that are hurting sales.  Not the 35$ troops boxes.

That's an excellent breakdown on the cost of a kit.  Except you missed a step.

After GW manufacturing gets done taking it's 40%, then the kit is sold to a retail seller (be it indepent or internal to GW).  The retailer is all so looking for a 40% return.  The $20 kit is now marked as MSRP of $33 to allow for the sellers margin.  Which puts the price in the same ball park as GW's actual retail price.

QFT.  As far as I can determine it is the cost of GW's retail outlet network that is really bleeding them dry.  In that regard they are doing the right thing in cutting cost out from that infrastructure.

I still think they are over-priced to the end buyer by around 20-25%.  If they knocked that of the MSRP I really, genuinely think a lot of their customers might come back.

People have whinged about CItadel prices since the dark ages, but its only really in the last couple of years that the clamour has become deafening and really struck to a level that hurts GW.  Peg the prices back a couple of years and we may get somewhere.  Otherwise its bye-bye GW I fear.

They won't do something like that now. I mean really....

I feel like that guy in on Monty Python. The Colonel that states "That's Silly!! Enough of that! On with the next skit!!"

They put together and paint the stuff for show, so one of each shows up as it is more for display. Makes for silly batreps as few people would ever do that, though I have seen it. It's why I like the reports where people use their own armies. Much more real to life....

Posted By Jezza on 05/12/2007 5:45 PM
It wasn't long ago that GW were bleating that they wern't going to put any army lists, in the WD mag and they weren't allowed in Tournaments unless it was a CODEX publication.

So yet again they change their merry tune.

I wish they'd just release 1 big Space Marine codex with all the chapters in it and be done with it.

I'd swear the managment is run by a bunch of bipolar people.

Well I for one would much rather hear them change their tune every once in a while than stick to something ridiculous they said at one point or another.

As for 1 marine codex, I've been clamoring for that since 2nd edition.  All the crazy sub codexes end up being one of 2 things: 1) so broken that no one uses the base codex anymore except for "fun" 2) so under powered that no uses the sub codex except for "fun".  With the glacial release schedule that they currently have, I'm inclined to say that sub codexes are the worst thing to hit 40k since overwatch.

I noticed they have recently started sales calls to a local indie I used to work for to try and get them to carry thier product again. Shafting local indies a few years back is were it all started to go wrong IMO.

The dev squad box comes with 2 each of Lascannons, Hvy Bolters, and Plasma Cannons, and one each of Missile Launchers (guess they figure you should have enough from Tac Sqds) and Multi-Meltas. With combat squads, what you get actually works pretty well.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

QFT.  As far as I can determine it is the cost of GW's retail outlet network that is really bleeding them dry.  In that regard they are doing the right thing in cutting cost out from that infrastructure.

I still think they are over-priced to the end buyer by around 20-25%.  If they knocked that of the MSRP I really, genuinely think a lot of their customers might come back.

People have whinged about CItadel prices since the dark ages, but its only really in the last couple of years that the clamour has become deafening and really struck to a level that hurts GW.  Peg the prices back a couple of years and we may get somewhere.  Otherwise its bye-bye GW I fear.

GWUS sales are rising and they are in profit...why should they lower prices?

They don't need to lower prices so much as hire staff to make the White dwarfs not suck, proof readers who know abit about the rules to look over these codexes before they goto print, and to put out FAQ's for codexes that have come out.

Posted By carmachu on 05/13/2007 5:47 PM

So these Marine players will have to buy a couple boxes of troops to glue some Boltgun guys together so they can do 10-man Las/Plas instead of 5-man Las/Plas. Or they'll have to actually field that second box of Termies they bought just to get a second Assault Cannon to get some use out of it.

Which means more money than the SHOULD have to spend on an army that was previously "done".

I fear for my sisters army.

So...any time they add something new to SM's people get PO'd because the army was "done" and now they'll have to shell out for an Uber-armored skimmer Lascannon Battle Cannon vehicle of death?  I didn't hear any Chaos players complaining that their armies were "done" and now they needed to shell out for Defilers,Obliterators,Monstrous Creature Deamon Princes and the like when their last 'dex came out.  I thought half the fun of wargames was throwing different combinations of units out there and seeing how different things work together,not net-listing some tourney army and buying only those exact minis.  People aren't really complaining that they'll have to shell out some more money.  They're complaining because their army is getting nerfed.  But hey,if these disgruntled SM players are dumb enough to sell their armies for about half what they paid for them on ebay rather than shell out $35-$70 bucks for a couple of boxes of troops for their min-maxed armies and keep playing a game that they obviously enjoyed(otherwise they wouldn't have shelled out for the army in the first place),like I said,no big loss.

Posted By Osbad on 05/15/2007 12:03 PM

QFT.  As far as I can determine it is the cost of GW's retail outlet network that is really bleeding them dry.  In that regard they are doing the right thing in cutting cost out from that infrastructure.

I doubt it is that simple, I don't know how things work in the US, In the UK I just can't see GW existing without its retail network.  There aren't the sort of shops that woud stock much GW stuff, and practiaclly none that would have any gaming in their stores. With nothing to pull people into the hobby, or places to game, they would have a fraction of the customers they currently do. Relying on Toys'r'us and hobbycraft type places to sell your stuff might cut costs but also probably means a lot fewer customers, those places just don't generate the interest that town centre stores can. If they did have a lot less custom theyd have to ramp up the price of kits to recoup the cost of making them.

From my own perspective I wouldn't still be buying stuff if it wasn't for the stores, I don't know anyone personally who plays so without the ability to just go down to one of the stores in the area I would probably not bother as it is the only way I can get games. I'm fortunate to live near one of the stores with large gaming area (probably about 16 large tables), which brings in the more mature players in the area. Its only natural that a lot of the younger players are going to drift away from the hobby, the stores probably go a long way to keeping those who remain interested still playing and paying, rather than giving up cos their friends aren't into it anymore.

i.e. I would think the retail outlets go a long way in both recruitement and retention of customers

Posted By Whatever on 05/15/2007 4:26 PM

 I thought half the fun of wargames was throwing different combinations of units out there and seeing how different things work together,not net-listing some tourney army and buying only those exact minis.  People aren't really complaining that they'll have to shell out some more money.  They're complaining because their army is getting nerfed.

Not that simple.

People with beautifully painted, converted and individualized armies are complaining.

It takes me about a month to paint a squad of Space Marines. Since I'll need 14 new Space Marines to bring my army up to snuff, that's 6 weeks that I won't be able to spend painting my Guard or one of my Fantasy armies. It's awfully hard to field painted armies when GW keeps changing/invalidating them faster than you can paint.

I also have each model numbered with army and squad badges. This means I can't just shuffle squads around to whatever optimum configuration suits Jervis' mood this week.

However, on future armies, I'll leave them off. It's not worth putting squad markings on my Guard and then have GW alter the rules so they need to be fielded in units of 12 or 16 or something in the next Codex.

So (1) it costs more money, (2) it removes the ability to customize and personalize your force, (3) it discourages painting, (4) the better painted your army is the more it hurts you.

Explain to me again why I'm supposed to be happy about this.

It's not the end of the world, but when you've finally finished painting your Space Marine army after 11 years, it is a trifle bit annoying to have the rules changed so you need to suddenly paint up a whole new collection of Marines to make your force legal again. (11 years ago there were combat squads, but all the models in that army have been repainted and labelled since, so it didn't effect me then.)

I likewise think infrastructure is where changes need to be made, but I honestly believe GW simply carries too much inventory year round.  I believe (I cannot get the financials to load) that last year they had around $10,000,000 in inventory at year end.  Someone can correct me if this was incorrect, but my point is that GW could cut IMMENSE costs if they could enter into a just-in-time inventory deal with their suppliers.  The size, longevity, and popularity of Games Workshop all make them a reasonable risk, and this would allow the corporate office to cut down on the costs of storing large quantities of product.  It would also allow GW to respond more quickly to changes in the market, only producing units of merchandise that will actually sell.  This would reduce the size of their manufacturing plants, cutting power, salary, and rent costs.  

Games Workshop stores could have smaller back-rooms, once again reducing rent costs, because all of their inventory would be on the shop floor.  With a well-designed JIT inventory system, GW could reduce the in-store quantity of many sets to one or two - especially in the UK where shipping from Nottingham is measured in a few days rather than a week plus.

I really feel GW would gain so much from moving to Just-in-time.  and I meant what I said about their risk value.  GW products have been around for decades, and they generate considerable revenue.  If given as part of a restructuring plan, I think they could avoid any issues in entering such a long-term deal with a materials supplier and shipping organization.

Ignore this>>>>

Posted By redstripe on 05/14/2007 7:02 AM

Posted By Broon on 05/14/2007 4:40 AM

Posted By Kilkrazy on 05/12/2007 7:21 AM


GW is unusual compared to other wargame companies because GW produce figures and rules that are highly tailored to each other. (WHFB less so than 40K but still quite a lot.)

You'd never buy either of them if you weren't going to buy them both.

 

That's not true, I used to buy lots of minis and no games. There are a lot of painters out there.

 

Would you seriously buy -another- marine, just to paint?

That's where Tom Kirby needs to go, next.  He needs to go to the studio, slap all the sculpters, take away all their boxes of plastic space marines, throw them in the garbage and say:

"Sculpt me something that doesn't look exaclty like all the other crap you've produced for the last five years.  Why can't you all be more like Jes?  And Jes, I've canned the manager that has kept blocking your staff-car and it's been green-lighted."

I'm biased in this regard.  I was never interested in the power-armored marine.  I came from the other faction, the tread-head, who liked the tanks, vehicles, and big guns.  Aside from Forgeworld, there has been nothing produced by Games Buckshot in the last five years that was for me.

"Oh, and Jes, we need a crazy tentacle-oriented Tyranid monster to grab the fat anime fan-boy demo, a corsetted gun-nun with incindiary rocket-launcher, and... and... what if we had this ork, but he was riding on a giant squig... and the squig had these huge tusks and ahh, strapped to both the tusks were gretchin and the gretchin both had big shootas... oh well, I'll let you work out the details on that one."

I haven't bought a marine for a while. I will probably buy one of the new veterans (the one with leg raised standing on a rock at least), and I have been meaning to get the IF terminator fella for some time now. I should do it before he gets to £15. The last one I bought was the Terminator chappie.

But anyway, I do occasionally but GW minis to paint, I'm currently working on a 54mm chrono-gladiator. I have bought a fair amount of 54mm GW stuff from eBay in the past few years, a combination of the scale, quality, and unique IP compels me to.

Ignore this too.

Posted By puree on 05/15/2007 5:39 PM

I doubt it is that simple, I don't know how things work in the US, In the UK I just can't see GW existing without its retail network.  There aren't the sort of shops that woud stock much GW stuff, and practiaclly none that would have any gaming in their stores. With nothing to pull people into the hobby, or places to game, they would have a fraction of the customers they currently do. Relying on Toys'r'us and hobbycraft type places to sell your stuff might cut costs but also probably means a lot fewer customers, those places just don't generate the interest that town centre stores can. If they did have a lot less custom theyd have to ramp up the price of kits to recoup the cost of making them.

From my own perspective I wouldn't still be buying stuff if it wasn't for the stores, I don't know anyone personally who plays so without the ability to just go down to one of the stores in the area I would probably not bother as it is the only way I can get games. I'm fortunate to live near one of the stores with large gaming area (probably about 16 large tables), which brings in the more mature players in the area. Its only natural that a lot of the younger players are going to drift away from the hobby, the stores probably go a long way to keeping those who remain interested still playing and paying, rather than giving up cos their friends aren't into it anymore.

i.e. I would think the retail outlets go a long way in both recruitement and retention of customers

The US seems pretty different from the UK, at least around here (California). Most GW stores I've been in are small (probably around 500sq. ft. or less) stores in large shopping malls. There is usually only room for two to three 4x4 tables. There isn't really a lot of gaming that goes on in these stores...at least not the kind that most people on here would be interested in. Mostly they just do demos for new people, and occasionally they'll run some regular games if there aren't new people wanting demos.

While they get a lot of foot traffic from kids in the mall, I honestly don't think they generate very much in the way of sales as I rarely see anyone buying product while in there. More likely than not, people still buy their product on the internet at a discount. I think that this is why the only times I've ever seen people buy anything are when parents buy their kids the starter box or a batallion/army box. Usually this is a one time sale though and rarely is the store able to retain the new kid for very long due to the lack of actual gaming space. Additionally, most of the staff in these stores is very pushy and are constantly trying to sell you a starter box or a battalion box for your current army or a new army. It's incredibly frustrating to be "used car salesman'd" like that when I already own four armies, and the guy didn't even bother to find that out before trying to push another one on me. It's just bad retailing in general. While I may have wanted to buy something before, I certainly didn't want to after the pushiness. While I can understand why they do that, it generally doesn't leave me feeling very good when I go in there and I instead just go to the local game store to buy, or buy online.

To compound these problems, rent in these large shopping malls is very very high. They are competing for space with big name retailers. So the net effect is that these stores just aren't very good at generating a profit nor retaining players. Basically if anyone still wants to get a serious GW game played, they will still have to find a local store with more space to play in.

Before their US GW store strategy, most GW product was sold in local game stores or on the internet. The benefit of the local game stores was that they would generally be in a lower rent area and thus have a lot more space for gaming. The local game stores around here usually have about 10-15 tables, terrain you could use, space to do hobby related things, etc. While there would be a lot less random foot traffic than there would be in the malls, I would say that the gaming community for GW games was a lot more healthy back then. People would recruit their friends via word of mouth rather than just having people get into the game via random chance, thus helping in player retention. And people in my game group when we used to play GW at our local game stores, would also buy product regularly from it as well. For one, to support the local store, and two because we'd be playing regularly and want to have a new unit to try, or maybe more of a certain unit. Or we'd see someone else with a cool army that we'd want to try and pick that up as well.

After the GW stores started opening though, the local store started pushing more and more non-GW product to the players for whatever reason (whether it was GW clamping down on them or their own choice, though I suppose understandable since GW was now trying to compete directly with the local store), and basically a lot of our local players shifted from GW product to other companies, be it PP, FoW, etc. As it is now, almost no one plays GW games around here anymore, so even if you wanted to play a GW game, you pretty much have only one night a week at the local store to play now, or you'd have to play in the crappy conditions of the GW mall stores. So the end result is that most people just don't play GW games anymore because it's too much trouble. Like a lot of people have said, the jettisoning of the independent local game stores has really hurt GW, and has given rise to a lot of the alternate game systems out there. When GW left the local independent stores, all the other games rushed in to fill the vacum.

What does work well for GW though are their Battle Bunkers. The one I went to was the LA Battle Bunker in southern California. These are much larger spaces (more out of the way too, but tons of people still show up anyway) that emulate the local game stores with room for about 15-20 tables, premade terrain, painting/modeling space, and a store. Here people can basically do everything related to the hobby. My friend who works there says that they generate close to 10x the sales of the next closest store in their area. And their success financially with these types of stores sort fits my own observation as well. You need to have a friendly gaming space and sales will naturally follow (assuming people like the game). The lack of pushy staff in these places also helps a great deal.

I think in the near future you will probably see more of these opening up, coinciding with them shutting down their mall stores. At least that would be the smart thing to do.

The small mall stores you describe are probably the equivalent of many of the Uk stores, a handful of 4*4 tables. The larger 'battle bunker' stores describe the store I'm more likely to go to for a game, there are quite a few scattered around the UK from what I gather.

In almost 40 years I've never seen an independent store with the sort of gaming room you describe in the UK, maybe they exist but just not in the areas I've lived. Of course GW has been the game shop in the UK since my early teens, so maybe the potential competition never got of the ground. Also of course I can remember when GW didn't just sell their own stuff, I used to get much AvalonHill/Spi/Victory stuff as well as a lot of Role playing stuff from them, it was at the time a essentially an 'independent'. I remember my parents would go on an occaisonal trip to York, I would tag along with one of my friends just so we could visit the GW store and see the latest board games/role playing stuff etc. Ah the memories, it must be 22 years ago that I was standing in York GW store debating with my friend whether to buy Imperium Romanum 2 and command the roman empire, or stellar conquest and conquer the stars, bought the space game - bought IR2 a few years later and it was a much better game.

Oh and you get the pushiness in the UK as well, but i think brits in general are less inclined to be cold hard pushy like US sales people, whilst it annoys me a bit if I'm in a store that I'm not known at, at least the sales pitch is a bit more conversational/friendly than you describe and usually starts with 'do you play' or 'do you collect any armies'. Then again maybe the fact that im older than most of the staff helps me in that regard.

As for alternative games in the UK, I know of only 1 shop that stocks the warmachine/hordes/at43 stuff. I don't know much about them, as depsite looking at the figures I've never seen the point of buying something I'm just not going to ever play - I simply have no idea who else might play them. The shop that sells them only sells them, it doesn't run games or anyting like that. That is where GW still wins hands down in the UK.

 

Ireland is pretty much similar to what Puree describes with the difference that we only have two GW stores, both in Dublin, with very limited play space and no battle bunkers. Play is pretty much through college clubs or in each others houses.
(I would have put one in Cork and maybe limerick too, but apparently supersaturating Dublin is the way to go)
Warmachine and Hordes are sold by a very small store with very limited gaming space.

Ireland is pretty much similar to what Puree describes with the difference that we only have two GW stores, both in Dublin, with very limited play space and no battle bunkers. Play is pretty much through college clubs or in each others houses.
(I would have put one in Cork and maybe limerick too, but apparently supersaturating Dublin is the way to go)
Warmachine and Hordes are sold by a very small store with very limited gaming space.

I'm familiar with three GW shops in London, Richmond, High Street Kensington and The Plaza on Oxford Street. None of them have a lot of table space and probably can't hold more than one big game. I don't know if this is typical of GW shops all over the UK.

I think a lot more wargaming goes on in pub function rooms and various community centres such as parish halls and sports club houses than in GW stores. It's certainly easy to find such groups by web searching Google or sites like TMP (in London, anyway...)

I've never heard of regional battle bunkers in the UK but it is a small country and not too far to go to the Nottingham base or to the big shows, ifyou want a solid day of gaming.

Damn yanks have everything laid out on a platter and they're still complaining eh?

Its our platter, we can put as much beef on it as we want.

Posted By Da Boss on 05/17/2007 5:59 AM
Damn yanks have everything laid out on a platter and they're still complaining eh?

Of course in the US (at least the South), any FLGS that survive will have decent game play areas.  If there's no room to game there's no reason to be in a GW store.  The FLGS will have space and competitors games.

 

@ Acheron - Do you go to the GW store in the Oakridge mall? I've played a couple games there and always make a point of stopping by when I'm up visiting my Dad in Los Gatos. You're right, pretty tight in there but still a good amount of games being played.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I only just moved to San Jose recently. Most of my GW store experience was over in the SF store. The SF store was exceptionally small and mostly geared toward the kiddies/new players it seemed. I stopped in the Oakridge store a few months back and saw mostly the same as the SF store, though granted I didn't stick around for very long as it didn't seem like it was really worth it (compared to playing at the FLGS instead).

I live in San Luis Obispo, the only FLGS we have is terrible. Boxes are displayed about 10 ft in the air, blisters are on 3rd floor under lock and key (so I have to track someone down, then go up there with them so they can unlock it for me) and there is no gaming space. If I am up in SJ, I'll let you know.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ah that does sound pretty terrible. The FLGS here in San Jose/Oakland are great. Huge play areas, easy access to the blisters, helpful and friendly staff, lots of events (though not much in the way of GW stuff anymore). I've found the same down in the LA stores as well. I guess maybe my view has been skewed by all the really nice FLGS I've been to.

I guess free to use gaming areas are only viable where rents are cheap.  They have some promotional value for the GW product, but I expect they'll be viewed as another cost to be cut by senior management.

GW's business model is bizarre.  They alienate veteran gamers by focusing on LOTR at the expense of 40K and the "Specialist Games" (aka Abandoned Games).  Then they increase the prices to levels kids/casual gamers can't afford.  So who are they actually trying to sell to?  

Posted By Wolfstan on 05/12/2007 10:08 AM

Whilst I am at it  Is there not the small possiblity that the market for GW stuff has reached saturation point and that the churn rate / new gamers is dropping?

I mean I'm 38 years old and have 3 x 40K armies, and apart from tweaking them I'm unlikely to do a complete army again. I sold 2 x 40k armies and a dwarf army because I didn't have the time to play with them.

Currently I'm in the middle of building 2 x Confrontation forces, 1 Warmachine faction, a Hordes faction, expanding my Urban War force to Metroplis scale as well as looking to build up my AT43 armies.

So I've not gone off gaming, I'm just interested in other systems. 40k has gone stale for me and although the rules are ok and work, I would like a more complex version of them, something that brings a challenge back in to gaming. 

Mind the fact that you can get up and going with the systems quickly and cheaply helps.

Yup, you make a lot of sense. And the second point is why the company needs to stop the older player drift by acting a wee bit nicer towards them.

@scipiou you have hit the nail on the head. GW does not need the veteran gamers like you said . So all the Bitching in the world wont help. Veteran gamers are in the minority. Having banners poking fun of Jervais Johnson is as much power as these veterans have. Does Jervais care?? Hell no he dont give a poo. Why should he. These vets who can spend alot of money still dont come anywhere near the amount the kids generate. GW will keep on doing what it does. If they are really suffering badly enough they will change but obviously they are not.

But, it doesn't follow that we have to be delighted about it.

Well some people complain and moan thinking they are the majority and are correct in thier opinions about every aspect of GW and some take delight in those people delusions.

The main value of us, and by that I mean the older gamers, is that we provide a lot of the hands-on shiney that younger players see, and want to emulate. As in our (gulp) painted(!) armies and conversions and stuff like that. I mean, they're hardly going to turn our money away, but imagine if any of us took our best-painted and modelled force to a primary/elementary school to show the oldest kids, or a middle school, or to a high school to show the youngest kids. (school types may vary in your area). - That would pretty much immediately sell a whole bunch of kids on the game as long as they (or their parents) could afford it. I mean WD and the intarnets are good for that buy there's nothing like seeing a cool army "in the flesh".
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It's the same reason their retail stores have such a hobby focus - show off the minis painted by staff which makes people buy 'em, and also by running painting tutes and allowing for in-store painting, it creates a social atmosphere, encourages the kids to get a-painting, and makes the whole thing less intimidating.
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About Jervis, and the studio guys, from everything I know about them they are pretty much all true gamers who go there for the love of games and the hobby. Most of them (at least the old guard) are actually much moreso historical gamers, possibly for the same reasons we grow into FoW, etc but they do care. OTOH, in a position like that you become a little detatched from reality (they get their minis and figures free, within reason, hence modelling melta-bombs isn't a big issue to them) and they have to try to not listen to much of the internet's complaints, or at least do it through filters like Tyranid Tim used to because the noise level is easily overwhelming, and frankly, when you're being attacked by someone online every few minutes you have to learn to ignore it for your own sanity. Not sure about Dakka, but I do know that several of them lurk on some of the major boards though.

I know I've not bought any GW merchandise for about two years now. I fully blame the dumbing down of the rules and the stupidly expensive plastics for my personal GW departure. I'm not sure where that fits into their profit loss, but it might be just a hint at something that they are missing.

I don't think veteran gamers are the minority. 80% of 11-years who start wargaming probably give up by the time they're 16, but veterans continue throughout their lives with occasional breaks for studying, having children, etc, and often carry on into retirement.

OTOH veterans are less likely to buy exclusively GW stuff. Most of them probably satisfy themselves with one or two 40K or WFB armies and buy a lot of things like Napoleonics and Ancients where GW does not compete. (Well, it does in Ancients but only for rules, not for figures.)

And every year there is a fresh new crop of 11-year olds.

So I don't know who brings the most revenue and *profit* to GW, which is their key concern.

They have this thing called market research, as I understand it.

and well thought out rules and game balance

Seriously though if all the veterens get jack of it, they are hardly going to be encouraging of tweenies playing GW games at their clubs and help them out with rules, painting etc. The more likely reply could be "Space Marines huh do you want to join in with us in (insert non GW game)"

GW may be the porche of miniatures but it'is the one on the side of the road missing wheels and a blown out motor.

You're missing the point - it's always been this way. They don't need to keep you for life, just through those young teen years. Enough of the 11-year-olds make it through to 20 or 25 before getting disheartened and dropping out to keep enough of a supply of "10-year veterans" going without needing 30-somethings like myself.

I had more value to Gw 10 - 15 years ago when I was younger than I do now, even though I spend more money now than I did then. GW main cash cow is the kids, Either that or they prefer kids to adults.

They like money. Kids overall spend more than we do because they're not paying for rent/mortgages/cars/computers/girls/holidays and so on...

It isn't so much that each individual kid spends more, it's that for every bitter, sassy vet there are 15 young kids just getting into the hobby and buying a new army. It doesn't matter that they aren't around in 5 years because there are a new batch of new kids to take their place.

Yes, that's exactly what I've been saying.

I left some meaning out of my last post, but it was along the lines of many of the kids stop buying miniatures as they get older and instead spend their money on all the junk I listed instead, and it's only the few of us who carry on.

I continue to think the money angle is greatly overblown.

It certainly has a psychological effect to see two comparable products priced differently. People will more often choose the cheaper one, and will certainly be irritated if their game is the more expensive. But that's just irritated. If it's really the best game out there, they'll pay the price.

It's also not about the cost of other things. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'd sooner attribute it to the time taken by other things. It's not that GW is so expensive people have to give it up... I think people just find themselves going away from it, don't necessarily know why, but point to the cost.

The fact is, a box of Marines costs $30 or so, and it takes at least two weeks to paint it to a reasonable standard (assuming you've got other things to do). Is $60 a month so very expensive? People spend that in one night of drinking, one night out with the wife, etc. etc. It's not the price... It's the other things taking your time.

Some people are just going to leave the hobby. They have kids, a more demanding job, a new girl, whatever, whatever. That's going to happen. Where GW really needs to think about things is in the quality of their ruleset and their responsiveness to customers. They have to make every trip to the gaming table as enjoyable as possible. They have to make it easy to have fun with the game.

Some people are more dickish than others. Loose, messed up, sloppy rules bring out the inner dick, by creating chances to argue, loophole, whatever. If the rules are good enough, they restrain the inner dick in those who can't always control it themselves. That leaves the rest of us to have more fun. You can say "don't play with dicks," but if even one game in ten is riddled with dickery, that makes the game, perhaps, 20% more lame, and you're 20% less likely to play.

It's really pretty simple. In business there's a lot of sneaky tricks to play, a lot of little wins to be had, but the one real answer is to offer a product that's quality. There will always be haters, but if your product is for real, the market will respond.

so gamers are like the Imperial Guard, thousands die, but more take their place and the Big Cheese on Earth dont care. The the Big Cheese and GW dont understand is that when you outfit the newer troops with crappy gun and equipment they will go AWOL then you got no one left

It isn't necessarily that the minis are too expensive, just too expensive for their percieved value. Yeah you can easily spend $60 (or a lot more) on a night out with your friends or favorite lady, but you know you're going to get good food, good booze, and good laughs (for the most part). With the minis, all of the sudden a $30 box of minis isn't so valuable because you are paying money to have to do work (assembling and painting) and then play a game that may or may not end up in a big argument over how those toy soldiers fake hit each other with fake swords.

Keep in mind that this is only an example, but I think it gets the point across.

And also keep in mind that I don't personally feel that way at all because I get a lot of enjoyment out of the assembly and painting parts. And I think that the minis I like are well worth the money.

Wayfarer: I think your example of the mindset of somebody leaving the hobby is about right... I just think that the "I have to do work" or the "it's always arguments" is what comes first, and is a manifestation of dissatisfaction with quality. I don't think anybody has ever left the hobby strictly because of the cost. There's always going to be other factors.

Recently I've pretty much stopped buying GW... I just can't justify the cost relative to other things I can spend the same money on. I've been playing the last 10 years and the more I've stuck around the more bitter I've gotten about paying that much for GW's miniatures. I have several armies and will probably continue playing, but buying their stuff, nope. GW makes miniatures, they'd like us to believe that they're selling relatively limitless potential for entertainment, in the form of a hobby.

Posted By Phryxis on 05/26/2007 7:21 PM
It's also not about the cost of other things. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'd sooner attribute it to the time taken by other things. It's not that GW is so expensive people have to give it up... I think people just find themselves going away from it, don't necessarily know why, but point to the cost.

Speak for yourself man.  I'd love to finish my Tau army and start a new Eldar army with those lovely figures, but there's no way I can afford it.  Literally.  It's not a case of wanting to do other stuff instead.  Its a case of "at these ridiculous prices, buying minis would overrun my entire budget for non-essentials."  And yeah, granted, I am not rolling in the dough right now, so maybe some adult professionals have more money than me.  Even a couple years back when my pay was a lot higher I could only toy around with buying a single plastic box set a year or so as an extravagance.

But when I started at the tail end of second edition, I was a penniless college student and bought infantry figures for roughly 5.99 a blister.  I could afford that.  About 5 years later for most figures that price has almost doubled.  That's unacceptable.  There is no rational justification for that kind of price increase.  While some figures are better sculpted than they were 5 years ago, not all of them are (see High Elf Archers).  And nothing is sculpted "twice as well" as the figures were 5 years ago.  The only thing even close to that much of an improvement is the quality of the graphic design of the 4th edition rulebook over the 2nd edition ones, but the rules themselves are certainly not twice as good.  Maybe twice as simple at best.

Some people may certainly get out of GW for their own nebulous maturing reasons, but don't dismiss every complaint against them for that reason!  Most people who know me will verify I've hardly grown up at all and if not for GWs ridiculous prices I'd still be spending my nights after work painting and playing with little army men.  My only complaint is that GW won't let me.

I guess I'll pipe in at this point. (although it is probably pointless)

I have pretty much quit playing 40K because of A) the overall crappy rules set that makes little sence, is contradictory, and changes from codex to codex, and B) that price of the figures is out of hand.

The rules are my main complaint. The basic rule book is constantly contradicted and overruled by different codexes, making the game cumbersome and annoying to play. The newer codexes are thin on flavor/fluff and are largely made up of recycled material dating back 10-15 years ago, with rules that make little sence from a gameplay standpoint.

The lack of support for several armies is also appalling and support for others is haphazard at best.

As far as price goes, if the game mechanics were tight and well written, I might be able to overlook the crazy price increases, but they aren't so the value of the figures has steadily plummeted from my point of view to a point where I no longer find any value in purchasing new figures. The old ones I have are just fine.

Sadly I have followed Mauleed's advice and moved on to Warmachine, a better game, where paying for the expensive figures has some actual value for me.

The point about GW prices is whether you consider there is any competition.

If you want to play 40K and you want to use the official figures, the prices are what they are, and you pay them if you can, or give up.

You can decide to play a different SF skirmish game instead. There are plenty of alternative rules and figures which are cheaper.

Or play historicals where there is a massive range of choice in periods, rules, scales and figures.

Well, obviously I'm in no position to tell you how your finances work out, but this surprises me...

You've picked a pretty tough example with Eldar. There's a lot of metal in the list, and it's not cheap. That said, I'll take the example of my own Eldar army, currently being painted... I have 20 Rangers as the core of my list. To get 20 of them, you'll pay about $80 (based on BWBits current price), so about $4 per model. No question, $4 for a single chunk of molded metal is tough.

I don't know how long it would take you to paint those 20 models, but it took me a LONG friggin time (highlighting camo is slow). I'd guess that it took me, at the very least, and mostly just for the sake of round numbers, two hours per model to paint them. It was probably closer to four hours, honestly. But if it's two hours per model, then I'm spending $2 per hour on the hobby. And that's not even counting the time I spend playing, which is effectively free.

So, given that anecdotal example, I have to ask: What are you doing with your time that costs LESS than $2 per hour? I know there certainly are things (World of Warcraft springs to mind) that will cost less, but $2 per hour just isn't that much. You'd have to play quite a bit of WoW to absorb the initial expense of your computer, your internet connection fee, your monthly WoW fee...

Hobbies, almost by definition, have an associated hourly cost. I guess if you're into pressing flowers, maybe it's approaching zero. But most hobbies and recreational activities are pretty significantly expensive.

The reason I bring all of this up, is because it's a caclulation I assume most people don't feel the need to do. I (again) assume that you just go to the hobby store, see the prices, and say "wow, I just can't afford that right now." I'm guessing you absolutely could afford it, but only if the hobby wasn't taking a backseat to other things. I don't know, maybe you're bringing in exactly enough money to cover food, clothing and shelter, and that's it, in which case there really is no more room (and in which case I wish you the best in having some better fortunes in the future).

Again, if I'm understanding you correctly, you've got the time and the inclination to paint an Eldar army, you just don't have the cash. So, given that you can't afford that army, what do you do with the hours that you would have spent painting and playing?

But that's the point isn't it? It's a cost benifit analysis. I want to do X, Y and Z. I enjoy all three equally. I only have enough money to do 2. If X costs very little, as does Y, and Z is substantially more expensive, guess which one I'll go for?
These days, I play a lot more D'n'D than Warhammer. D'n'D is practically free. I use the SRD and buy some minis every now and then, but Icould easily play the game without the minis. And then it's cost the cost of the dice I use to play...around 4 euro. But my friends who I GM for all buy a lot more stuff for the game, as they have more disposable income. I'm on a grad students wage living in a very expensive city in an expensive area and running a car in a country where doing that costs minimum 2000 euro plus petrol and services per year. I analysed the costs, and realised that D'n'D is more rewarding, cheaper and less likely to frustrate the hell outta me. WOTC provide much better support all round. Whereas I can stay with GW and wait 10 years for an update for my chosen faction. No thanks. That said, I wouldn't mind the odd game of fantasy, but I've got all my armies. I'd like an undead army too, but really, at the moment, D'n'D is a much more rewarding way to spend my leisure time, and leaves me with enough money for the odd comic book and pint every now and then too.
That's what GW must compete with. Not other mini games, but just other ways to spend leisure time. Make it cheaper, and suddenly my cost benifit alters significantly. BFSP galvanised me into buying another regiment of orcs and some trolls and wolf riders to flesh out my army to 2200 points for a map campaign. Because it was cheap, I ended up spending more.

I'm not saying that cost isn't a factor... I mean, I want to paint GW models, and I have a pretty good amount of disposable income, but if GW cost $500 a month, even though I could find that in my budget, I just wouldn't. It's totally unreasonable. Instead, I end up spending more like $25-50 a month, and that's really not that much. It's less than a tank of gas.

So, yeah, you're right that there's a point at which cost is beyond perceived value... But you are also talking about how much you enjoy the game. I think the cost is generally secondary to the enjoyment. If you really solidly preferred playing GW games, you wouldn't be counting costs against D'n'D. The costs are all really in the same general area. Free is actually pretty close to $25 a month.

In the end, all I'm saying is that I think that if people really thought about their motivations, it wouldn't come down to cost. It'd come down to enjoyment of the game, or lack thereof. Cost is a factor, but it's the sort of thing you think about after you realize you're just not having the fun you want to.

You are right. So what I'd like to see is GW making the game more value for money for me in the fun arena. With fantasy they do this just fine, the only thing stopping me playing fantasy is the fact that I moved away from my old group and haven't found a new one yet. Gonna start a club at uni in the Autumn which should fix that. (I said never again, but I need someone to play against)
Most of my contention with GW comes from 40K at the moment, specifically (shock for anyone who's read my posts) Orks. It really wrecks my fun when I have to wait years to get something done about my army. So I drift into doing other things.
Not sure how GW could address this, but a less SM saturated release schedule would be a start.

Though 25 euro/20ish dollars a month is a bit steep for me at the minute. I'll get back to you after I've moved apartment and paid off my car...
(Stupid incredibly expensive Dublin)

I'm not a Fantasy player, and I don't know the buzz in that community all that well, but my impression is that it's far, far more positive than 40K. It's a mystery to me why 40K is getting simplified and dumbed down (Chaos Dex will be the real measure of how much this is happening), when Fantasy, a much, MUCH more complicated game is still pretty well received.

And of course, Orks... It's just a total mystery to me how they've allowed themselves to drop that ball so many times. This thread is about GWs top level mistakes getting blamed on managers, and I don't know of a more clear example than the total disregard for Orks. Orks and Chaos are the two constants between Fantasy and 40K. They've been there for as long as GW has been a successful business. The way they're being ignored isn't just insulting to Ork players, it isn't just insulting to the integrity of the game, it's just ridiculously stupid business. Orks got the game to where it is today. Fire all the managers you want. If you stop doing what works, what do you think will happen?

Posted By Phryxis on 05/28/2007 10:40 PM
Free is actually pretty close to $25 a month.

Let me see if I can convince my cable company of that.

Posted By Asmodai on 05/29/2007 7:27 PM

Posted By Phryxis on 05/28/2007 10:40 PM
Free is actually pretty close to $25 a month.

Let me see if I can convince my cable company of that.

I'm sure yuor cable company would point out that, by the same logic, $50 is pretty close to $25.

Phyxis, we've now got an entire generation of gamers with a totally warped veiw of Orks though. People who think they should be dumb, mindless apes who can't hit the broad side of a barn.
People who think orks shouldn't be competitive, and wanting them to be is "un-orky" (tell that to Thraka)
People who think the clans are singular armies. People who think Orks don't "fit in" with the current universe.
People who think orks are a joke. That's a lot of momentum. When you play orks, you meet a lot of people who are like "Woah, cool!", and a lot of people who scoff and say "Orks? Right, this should take 3 turns." And the fact is, against some lists (notably mechanised Tau in my experience, and Nids) they are right. The only list I am confident against anymore is space marines, and that is because of one rule: Choppa. Well, two actually. Tank busta bomb aswell.
It saddens and angers me more than a game should. Whenever I read an interveiw I'm waiting for the guy to go for the throat over it, but of course I here "when will the next chaos/marines codex be out?" and "what's your favourite song?" The developers should be made to feel guilty as hell over this so that they can browbeat the suits.
At least in Warmachine and Hordes players know their faction will be looked after. Same in D'n'D minis. GW seem to have no qualms gaking on players for profit. And many players seem to see nothing wrong with this. (From the posts I always get defending the current state of orks. "space marines sell better!" well, *fudge* me sideways, I wonder why. By that brilliant logic, they should drop every line except space marines.

My feeling (I can't prove anything) is that veterans and the less popular armies have "positive externalities." These are benefits to the hobby as a whole that do not show up in direct purchasing behaviour and are difficult to account for by straight sales statistics.

For instance, vets probably fieldd a lot of nice looking models, and teach new players the rules, and lend armies and terrain for games. This kind of thing helps rope in new players. GW could do this through their shops but that costs money. Vets do it for free.

And a variety in armies is good for the game long term.
Marines Vs Marines Vs Green Marines Vs Red Marines Vs Grey Marines Vs Black Marines Vs Chaos marines Vs Eldar Vs Godzilla kinda gets old fast.

Posted By JOHIRA on 05/27/2007 8:15 PM

Posted By Phryxis on 05/26/2007 7:21 PM
It's also not about the cost of other things. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'd sooner attribute it to the time taken by other things. It's not that GW is so expensive people have to give it up... I think people just find themselves going away from it, don't necessarily know why, but point to the cost.

Speak for yourself man.  I'd love to finish my Tau army and start a new Eldar army with those lovely figures, but there's no way I can afford it.  Literally.  It's not a case of wanting to do other stuff instead.  Its a case of "at these ridiculous prices, buying minis would overrun my entire budget for non-essentials."  And yeah, granted, I am not rolling in the dough right now, so maybe some adult professionals have more money than me.  Even a couple years back when my pay was a lot higher I could only toy around with buying a single plastic box set a year or so as an extravagance.

Yep. A 2000 point Tau army - saving tons of money by basing it around 3 Battleforces would cost my $570...

That's awfully hard to justify - it's more than a month's rent!

Posted By Asmodai on 05/30/2007 5:11 AM
Yep. A 2000 point Tau army - saving tons of money by basing it around 3 Battleforces would cost my $570...

That's awfully hard to justify - it's more than a month's rent!

Oh come on.  Think about it - a month's rent will only buy you a roof over your head for a month.  But a 40K army can provide years of enjoyment!  If you compare the amount you pay per hour of not being homeless to the amount per hour of having fun in an exciting and rewarding hobby that you can enjoy with your friends I think you'll see which is the more worthwhile way to spend your money.

I could only dream of having rent as low as that....

Posted By Janthkin on 06/01/2007 9:24 AM

Yep. A 2000 point Tau army - saving tons of money by basing it around 3 Battleforces would cost my $570...

That's awfully hard to justify - it's more than a month's rent!

I could only dream of having rent as low as that....

I live in semi-rural Canada. You live in So Cal.

Want to trade?

San Jose isn't exactly So Cal...

Meh. Geography.


My job may be paying my rent next year (if I go work at a nuclear plant), so I'd have the money for Tau then.

yeah, San Jose rent is cheap at 800 a month, if your lucky and/or want to live in a shady part of town.

Asmodai, the next Homer Simpson?

Posted By Asmodai on 06/01/2007 11:28 AM
Meh. Geography.


My job may be paying my rent next year (if I go work at a nuclear plant), so I'd have the money for Tau then.

Heck, that job may just about turn you into a Tau!

You know I never complained about the price of GW stuff when I was younger even though I buy10x more now then I did then. Why is that? Is it because when we were younger we could not afford so much so were so grateful for what little we had?? Or is it as you get older with responsibilities each time you fork out big buck on (what is in essence toys) you think subconciously that money could be spent better elsewhere?

Then that leads to despising the Prices GW charges. If it costs so much why do most people have at least 3 different armies?? I personally have 7. From 1500 point IF army to a 16,000 point SW+13th.

I think you have a very valid point, beef.

On the other side of things, though, I first got in to 40k 8-9 months before 4th came out. In the first year and a half I played, I saw some items go up 30% or so. Every box went up 5$, and some of those went up another 5$ later on.

Posted By Janthkin on 06/01/2007 9:24 AM

Yep. A 2000 point Tau army - saving tons of money by basing it around 3 Battleforces would cost my $570...

That's awfully hard to justify - it's more than a month's rent!

I could only dream of having rent as low as that....

And he can only dream of being unfamiliar with the term "lake effect snow." Don't look it up. It'll give you nightmares.

lake effects make me giggle.. tsunami's on the other hand make me cringe in fear. ever lived on an island? like Japan? try it, and get back with me.. lake effect.. hah