Now that the heat has died down, and hopefully cooler heads prevail, I have a curious question:

Why is it that Kriegmarines are OK, but the "other" WW2-themed army was run out of town on a rail?

Would someone care to share some insight?

----
edited to add link to the "other" army...

its not

The moment you pull out a mini with a Swastika or Red Star is the moment I go have a nice discussion with the store manager to help insure you'll never play in that store again.

Frankly the Kreig cross he has painted all over everything reminds me of some Klan badges I've seen. I am not impressed.

I blame games for the whole modern idealisation of nazi culture among todays youth. The problem is most of us don't have any interaction with people effected by them so they start to become the "cool elite trained underdogs" rather than what they really are, monstrous.

Not to mention, Nazi armys are cliched as hell. For all these people that claim "its just historic" you sure don't see alot of soviet or american ww2 themed armies in 40k

Whoah, never saw that one. Uh, apply everything I said in the other one to that one. I think his paintjob is punishment enough.

HF, yeah probably. All those WW2 shooter games have you play against the nazis so some people be like, "Oh man those poor dudes I'm shooting at."

I might make Soviet or American WW2 cadians to go along with my brit WW1 dudes. They'll man the tanks and APCs while the trench-diggers make their graves. It'll be awesome and I bet my dudes can beat your WW1/WW2 dudes.

Both armies show a serious lack in judgment and taste.

I would probably not play against someone w/ this style army if they walked into my flgs.

It's unfortunate since the one is painted extremely well. It's a big waste of talent.

I looked at the thread and I just didnt see the problem. I guess I'm just not very PC. I'd be glad to play him, and my pitiful "vanilla" figs would pale by comparison.

If we're going to go along the lines of "Screw Historics the Nazis were evil bastages" then shouldn't we also get offended when someone plays White Scars or anything modeled after Mongols? Valhallans for being modeled after Stalin's army? Anyone who plays anything that has to do with the Japanese during the 30's and 40's? Perhaps the Spaniards? Please people, they're just miniatures. If someone wants to spend the money and time and effort to paint them in a Nazi like theme then more power to them. To say that some of these culture's are ok to mimic and yet Nazis are some forbidden taboo is ridiculous. If you see a thread with minis painted in a theme you don't like here's an idea... DON'T GO BACK TO THAT THREAD!. Honestly now, it's not that hard.

I have a problem with armies that use existing iconographies of killer regimes. That includes Nazis, WWII Japanese and Fascist Italy/Spain, as well as anything Communist. Frankly, although far less aggravated, I have a problem with the US/UK flag, or anything else real world.

This is a fantasy game. If you want to play historicals I have no problem with that, but go play historicals. Putting that stuff on a 40K list is the modelling equivalent of trolling and I respond to it in the same manner.

Stormtrooper X wrote:If we're going to go along the lines of "Screw Historics the Nazis were evil bastages" then shouldn't we also get offended when someone plays White Scars or anything modeled after Mongols? Valhallans for being modeled after Stalin's army? Anyone who plays anything that has to do with the Japanese during the 30's and 40's? Perhaps the Spaniards? Please people, they're just miniatures. If someone wants to spend the money and time and effort to paint them in a Nazi like theme then more power to them. To say that some of these culture's are ok to mimic and yet Nazis are some forbidden taboo is ridiculous. If you see a thread with minis painted in a theme you don't like here's an idea... DON'T GO BACK TO THAT THREAD!. Honestly now, it's not that hard.

Mongolian nomadic society still exists though? Also last I checked there werent many victims of the Mongolian horde still alive.

dressing up like a mongol might get you some funny looks, but noone would normally have a problem with it. Try doing it as a Nazi and you'd most likely get your ass kicked. The Nazis weren't very long ago, and many familys were effected by them relatively recently. They waged the single most dispassionate, industrialised and evil genocide in the history of humanity and glorifying them is not only tasteless as hell, but disrespectful.

HF wrote:

Stormtrooper X wrote:If we're going to go along the lines of "Screw Historics the Nazis were evil bastages" then shouldn't we also get offended when someone plays White Scars or anything modeled after Mongols? Valhallans for being modeled after Stalin's army? Anyone who plays anything that has to do with the Japanese during the 30's and 40's? Perhaps the Spaniards? Please people, they're just miniatures. If someone wants to spend the money and time and effort to paint them in a Nazi like theme then more power to them. To say that some of these culture's are ok to mimic and yet Nazis are some forbidden taboo is ridiculous. If you see a thread with minis painted in a theme you don't like here's an idea... DON'T GO BACK TO THAT THREAD!. Honestly now, it's not that hard.

Mongolian nomadic society still exists though? Also last I checked there werent many victims of the Mongolian horde still alive.

dressing up like a mongol might get you some funny looks, but noone would normally have a problem with it. Try doing it as a Nazi and you'd most likely get your ass kicked. The Nazis weren't very long ago, and many familys were effected by them relatively recently. They waged the single most dispassionate, industrialised and evil genocide in the history of humanity and glorifying them is not only tasteless as hell, but disrespectful.

Word.

In FOW, there are german armies and there are SS armies.

I don't play the SS armies. They offend me.

In 40K, there are no such armies. Bringing them into 40K is making a statement.

Most of us hear it quite plainly. It offends us.

Since I saw "that thread" a few days ago there is something I wanted to say. THE IMPERIUM ARE NOT NAZI'S.

HF - I play IG and actually went for a WII US army theme with my troops. I used the US gas mask heads from west wind games on cadian bodies. and painted my infantry in olive drabs and khakis. My tanks however have an armageddon style paintjob as there were just too many catachan green tanks in my gaming club. So I guess its more Steel legion than anything else. No white stars.

I agree that WWII german or Nazi themed armies are just a bad idea. You are all most guaranteed to offend someone. I'm not sure why steel legion, kriegmarines and Flames of War are ok and WII Nazi imperial guard armies are not. Though nicley painted, my guess is it was that particuliar armies addition of the Thor theme which wreaks of Neo Nazi racism in conjunction with the Iron cross and nazi troops and eagles painted on the tanks, along with the battle of britain panoramas that makes it obviously more blatant. For those who claimed the Iron Cross is a symbol used by modern German forces, and that army had nothing to do with Nazis, over on Warseer that gentleman advertised the fact that his army was based on WWII german forces and norse imagery. To claim otherwise is ridiculous.

As to accusations that the Imperium basically are Nazi's. I disagree. Most of 40k is based on Ancient Roman imagery and theme. Hence all the capes. The Nazi party was famous for stealing the imagery of the Roman empire. I think people tend to confuse the two. The emperor is not Hitler, he is the god emperor in the tradition of the Roman emperors. The Inquisition is not the SS. The Inquisition is the Inquisition as in the Roman Inquistitors and later on in history the Spanish Inquisition. The Sisters of Battle are lets face it Nuns with Guns. Should that be offensive to catholics? Yeah Maybe. The difference is probably in the ammount of time that has past in history. Many victims of WWII are still alive and those attrocities are still fresh in peoples minds.

I may have just Locked this thread but thats my point of view.

Stormtrooper X wrote:If we're going to go along the lines of "Screw Historics the Nazis were evil bastages" then shouldn't we also get offended when someone plays White Scars or anything modeled after Mongols? Valhallans for being modeled after Stalin's army? Anyone who plays anything that has to do with the Japanese during the 30's and 40's? Perhaps the Spaniards? Please people, they're just miniatures. If someone wants to spend the money and time and effort to paint them in a Nazi like theme then more power to them. To say that some of these culture's are ok to mimic and yet Nazis are some forbidden taboo is ridiculous. If you see a thread with minis painted in a theme you don't like here's an idea... DON'T GO BACK TO THAT THREAD!. Honestly now, it's not that hard.

Stormtrooper is right, many other offensive and more destructive cultures are apparently fine with players but not those evil Nazis. I think it has more to do with the direct involvement many Europeans had with the Nazis as opposed to the remote by either time (Mongols) or distant (Japanese/Southeast Asian regimes) contact with the other cultures. As an younger American (31) I have not had not had direct involvement so I would consider the Khumer Regime and Stalin to be way worse than Nazis based on simple numbers and length of time of their reign.

But Nazis also had visual style which will also get a stronger reaction because it's not another ravaging horde like the Mongols or savages, it is specifically the Nazis, and since there are still people who actually promote Nazism and promotes their ideology and so on they can be considered 'curent'. Noone claims to be bringing back the Mongol Hordes, noone promotes Stalinism anymore in Europe or the US. Basically if popular culture had let the Nazis become history instead of idealizing them then we wouldn't be in this hypocritical situation.

The 'Swastika' (the asian original), Eagle and the Iron Cross predate the Nazi's but they have become branded to that style so having them on an army gets a certain reaction. It's kinda sad to lose the ability to use historical symbols because a fasion designer decided to associate them with a terrible regime.

Not to make presumptions, but I would guess that several people in this thread and the last have fairly "progressive" viewpoints, probably up to the point that you would make me look like Rush Limbaugh. Yet, when it comes to something that offends you, the response is exactly the same as the bible thumpers I went to school with. There are people who, not necessarily accusing anyone here, who will gripe about censorship, but will immediatley call for the removal of anything *they* precieve as racist or offensive.

I may not agree with, appreciate, or even understand, say, a statue of the Virgin Mary created from feces, but the artist has a right to create it and display it.

Also I agree with Stormtrooper that if you dont like it, dont look at it. Talking about it just encourages it. Me, I would never have thought to do something like that, but if you tell me I can't, I'll do it just to mess with people.

Heavygear wrote:. I'm not sure why Flames of War are ok and WII Nazi imperial guard armies are not. .

It basically comes down to the fact you can play historical battles and not feel any sort of connection in regards to the particular political inclinations of the sides, being purely interested in the combat and capabilities of the respective armies, whereas taking the color scheme and imagery of one particullar side and extrapolating it onto something completely unasccosiated with that is making a statement about your feelings towards it.

As someone who plays historical wargames and sci-fi/fantasy wargames, who has studied a bit of the subjects of Germany and WWII, and who has family and friends who served and fought on both sides during the war, I have developed some pretty specific, and pretty strong feelings about this matter.

Let me also say up front that I have German army for Flames of War, and am also working on a Soviet army.

Now, as to the original topic, I find the more that I see sci-fi and fantasy armies that are "based" on WWII Germany, the Soviet Union, or other military forces associated with extremist governments, the more I find it distasteful, and depending on the execution, a bit sickening.

As to the army that was recently "run out on a rail" in the modeling forum, I will say this: It was beautifully painted, and aside from some of the flags, didn't bother me that much. I thought the aerial recognition flag that just replaced the swastika with an iron cross was unnecessary, but the majority of the army was extremely well done and pulled from enough other non-Nazi sources that it didn't bother me.

The Kriegmarines on the other hand are nowhere near as well done (no offense to the Kriegmarine painter, but the other army was painted to a truly exceptional standard), and also in much poorer taste, in my opinion.

This may seem hypocritical to some that I find sci-fi or fantasy armies based on WWII Germany to be distasteful at best, but am okay with actual German armies in a WWII game, but please allow me to explain myself.

I think if you're modeling a German unit in a historical context, using historically accurate color schemes and equipment, and are doing it respectfully (i.e. in a way that is not glorifying units with histories of war crimes and that sort of thing) that there is no problem. I actually see this as a good thing because it can be used as a teaching tool, is promoting historical research and better understanding of the topic, and helps to ensure that the history is remembered.

I also think there is a limit to what should be modeled in good taste though. While I take no issue with gamers modeling German military units, I would find it disgusting if someone wanted to model a bunch of camp guards or an Einsatzgrupp. I also find it sickening when people model Waffen-SS units because they think they were "cool" but don't actually have any interest in learning about the history. I also have found it kind of sick when I've heard people talk about fielding Volkssturm militia or Hitlerjugend child soldiers, but those things are kind of sore subjects for me.

But my point is, in a historical context I see no problem in modeling and playing a WWII German army.

As said, I doing a 40k army with WWII iconography is kind of wack. This is from a combination of reasons. The first (which is a generalization, I admit) is that most of these armies are poorly researched, and are modeled like people think the Germans looked, but for the most part are nowhere close to accurate about anything, and when you actually talk to the person it's often apparent that their knowledge of the subject is woefully limited. It always seems like they did it because they just think it's "cool" or because "the Germans were l33t" but don't actually know anything about the subject - which again, is something I take issue with even in historical games. They are taking a serious subject and turning it more or less into a crude science fiction inside joke ("My Space Marines are actually German - LOL!") which I find annoying because it dilutes the subject matter and cheapens the whole thing.

I also think that separating the subject from its historical context in some ways is a lot more glorifying (even unintentionally) than model a historical unit. At least with historicals, you are modeling something that happened. When someone does Nazi's in Space, I feel like they are implying (intentionally or not) that they need Nazis in Space because there aren't enough Nazis in the real world.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you want to model and play a German army from WWII, then model and play an actual German army from WWII, and try to develop a little understanding of what you are doing. Learn something from it.

But don't make a Nazis in Space army because you think Waffen-SS camouflage, arm bands, and blood flags look good on Imperial Guard miniatures. Please.

Grignard wrote:Not to make presumptions, but I would guess that several people in this thread and the last have fairly "progressive" viewpoints, probably up to the point that you would make me look like Rush Limbaugh. Yet, when it comes to something that offends you, the response is exactly the same as the bible thumpers I went to school with. There are people who, not necessarily accusing anyone here, who will gripe about censorship, but will immediatley call for the removal of anything *they* precieve as racist or offensive.

If they have that right then I have every right to call it what it is.

Freedom of expression doesn't mean its okay to just do whatever, damn the consequences, see Fred Phelps for a perfect example of why.

There are people who, not necessarily accusing anyone here, who will gripe about censorship, but will immediatley call for the removal of anything *they* precieve as racist or offensive.

You weren't calling me out but I did PM GMM about his right to paint and display an army like that due to free speech, as well as my right to do the opposite and call him out on it. I think I've tried to say in the other thread and in this one that while I may not play against such an army, people should be able to paint it if they so please. But if they do, they should not beat around the bush because they did paint it. They should also accept whatever feedback and reactions they get from it*. Also note that people tend to paint things that they enjoy painting unless it's for commission or they are a masochist, which makes a statement.

*of course, this is the internet so people can easily claim "oh I did it for the laughs" but I'm not so sure someone who spent a couple dozen hours meticulously painting such things can claim it's just for the laughs.

For what it is worth, I really don't care one way or another about a fantasy army using historical themes. Run them out on a rail if you want. But I agree with Hordini that historicals is an entirely different matter. Not only that, but I find that trying to change the imagery or sugarcoat Russian or German miniatures is not only wrong, but imbecilic

stonefox wrote:

There are people who, not necessarily accusing anyone here, who will gripe about censorship, but will immediatley call for the removal of anything *they* precieve as racist or offensive.

You weren't calling me out but I did PM GMM about his right to paint and display an army like that due to free speech, as well as my right to do the opposite and call him out on it. I think I've tried to say in the other thread and in this one that while I may not play against such an army, people should be able to paint it if they so please. But if they do, they should not beat around the bush because they did paint it. Also note that people tend to paint things that they enjoy painting unless it's for commission or they are a masochist, which makes a statement.

Understood. I also think that one reason people use base imagery off the Nazi and Communist propaganda devices is that it is very powerful imagery. I think it is one reason that these sort of governments are so successful, that is, the emotional impact of the imagery. I think it is not necessarily a bad thing to explore *why* this is so, without advocating totalitarianism.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Now that the heat has died down, and hopefully cooler heads prevail, I have a curious question:

Why is it that Kriegmarines are OK, but the "other" WW2-themed army was run out of town on a rail?

Would someone care to share some insight?

----
edited to add link to the "other" army...

Primarily because this site is overrun with Miscreant Spayce Marienz (hurr!) apologists...

Blackheart666 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Now that the heat has died down, and hopefully cooler heads prevail, I have a curious question:

Why is it that Kriegmarines are OK, but the "other" WW2-themed army was run out of town on a rail?

Would someone care to share some insight?

----
edited to add link to the "other" army...

Primarily because this site is overrun with Miscreant Spayce Marienz (hurr!) apologists...

Wow I never thought someone could simultaneously derail a thread, insult the board regulars, AND get in a stereotyping insult to someone who chooses to play a certain type of miniature in a fantasy game. You however, have accomplished all three Blackheart

People do love their space marines after all.

Grignard wrote:

Blackheart666 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Now that the heat has died down, and hopefully cooler heads prevail, I have a curious question:

Why is it that Kriegmarines are OK, but the "other" WW2-themed army was run out of town on a rail?

Would someone care to share some insight?

----
edited to add link to the "other" army...

Primarily because this site is overrun with Miscreant Spayce Marienz (hurr!) apologists...

Wow I never thought someone could simultaneously derail a thread, insult the board regulars, AND get in a stereotyping insult to someone who chooses to play a certain type of miniature in a fantasy game. You however, have accomplished all three Blackheart

that wasn't a derail.. but I do appreciate your attempt at crediting me with a trifecta.

~space marines~

Hordini wrote:As said, I doing a 40k army with WWII iconography is kind of wack. This is from a combination of reasons. The first (which is a generalization, I admit) is that most of these armies are poorly researched, and are modeled like people think the Germans looked, but for the most part are nowhere close to accurate about anything, and when you actually talk to the person it's often apparent that their knowledge of the subject is woefully limited. It always seems like they did it because they just think it's "cool" or because "the Germans were l33t" but don't actually know anything about the subject - which again, is something I take issue with even in historical games. They are taking a serious subject and turning it more or less into a crude science fiction inside joke ("My Space Marines are actually German - LOL!") which I find annoying because it dilutes the subject matter and cheapens the whole thing.

I also think that separating the subject from its historical context in some ways is a lot more glorifying (even unintentionally) than model a historical unit. At least with historicals, you are modeling something that happened. When someone does Nazi's in Space, I feel like they are implying (intentionally or not) that they need Nazis in Space because there aren't enough Nazis in the real world.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you want to model and play a German army from WWII, then model and play an actual German army from WWII, and try to develop a little understanding of what you are doing. Learn something from it.

But don't make a Nazis in Space army because you think Waffen-SS camouflage, arm bands, and blood flags look good on Imperial Guard miniatures. Please.

This is the best reason to refrain from doing any historical army in 40k. If you want the style make up your own icons at least so it doesn't look like the 20th century somehow made it all the way through 38,000 years of history. "Based on" is better than "is" in sci fi.

I dunno. I sit in both camps here.


On the one hand, I see no real problem with a player wanting to add a little historical flavor to 40k. People base 40k vehicles off of 1/48 WWII kits all the time. Usually, it's some sort of German (read: Nazi) vehicle. AFV or otherwise. Also, as was mentioned earlier, Valhallans (WWII Russia) which are clearly modeled after the Stalinist regime. A regime well known for its brutality, cruelty, and mass murder. They had death camps, too. No ovens but, rather, freezers (Siberian labor camps). Praetorian Guard are modeled after the "Darkest Africa" era British. If anyone knows about South Africa back in the day, where a soldier wore a Pith Helmet and an overcoat with shiny brass buttons, they will know that the Brits weren't exactly nice to the indiginous peoples, to put it mildly. Or the Ogre Kingdoms, which are of obvious asiatic origins. This 'flavor' could easily be construed as Japanese, who were BRUTAL to the early war Chinese as well as US, British, and Australian POWs. As brutal, if not more so, than the Nazis. Believe it. researhc the Japanese atrocites in WWII.
All those arguements aside, I believe in giving credit where credit is due. The poster painted a nice-looking army. His painting skill is far and away better than the average 40k player. The ones that paint, that is. Subject matter aside, the OP did some extremely nice paint jobs and should maybe receive kudos for that.


On the other hand...
His army theme and paint scheme probably is paying homage to Neo-Nazi ideals, and I find that dispicable, distasteful, immature, and downright disrespectful, if that is the case (which it stongly seems to be). Fine. You have the right to believe what you want to believe. The OP has every right to think like a knuckle-dragging primate that knows and thrives on hatefully motivated ideology. What he does not have a right to do is thrust that upon others with complete disregard for social boundaries.
He has no idea what kind of people the community of DakkaDakka.com is made up of. Nor does he care. This is the internet where there are rarely reprocussions or consequences for your words or virtual actions. This is the immature, disrespectful bit. Getting flamed here is about the worst fallout he will get for being an asspickle racist (again, if that is truly his motivation with that army).


I absolutely love anything WWII-related. I love documentaries (Ken Burns' "The War..." omg), movies (Saving Pvt. Ryan, The Longest Day), etc. Most of all, though, I love period gaming in WWII. When I play WWII historical games, I prefer to play as Germans. I love the german war engine. The Whermacht was downright mean. The navy and Lufftwaffe, too. The ground vehicles, from the humble Schwimmwagon to the mighty King Tiger, to the MG-42, Panzerfaust, and STG-44 (1st ever Assault rifle), all the way to the Me-262 (1st jet-powered plane ever). The German war engine pioneered sooooooo many things mankind use today. When I play WWII hinstoricals, I will use SS troops without hesitation. Especially if the scenario calls for them. They were crack eliete troops and had roles to play in WWII (and the gaming of) that were not only made up of mass murder and anti-semitism. They acted on these roles exceptionally well, too.
I paint all my WWII vehicles with appropriate period markings with actual photographs used as reference material. If the tank squadron I am painting had red arial recognition flags with a swastika on a white circle draped over the engine decks, then that's what I will model on the tanks.

The Germans were not alone in their atrocities, either. the Russians were just as ruthless. Post-war, they were as ruthless to their own people. Also, let's not forget about the Japanese. Nanking. The Battan Death March. Every bit is atrocious as the Nazis. It is argued that BOTH sides of the war committed atrocities. Every country bombed cities with extreme predjudice. Hiroshima? Nagasaki?

None of this means that I am a nazi sympathizer nor do I even think about the atrocities anyone committed against humanity while I am playing a WWII game. The same could easily be said for WWII-themed 40k armies. Of course, this is merely my opinion and I do not expect it to be a common opinion. I would play against the OP's army without hesitation. I would even compliment his work. However, the minute he started spouting any neo-Nazi or hate -driven rhetoric, I would pack up my stuff, lay into him, and tell him what an ass he was.



Ghidorah
Who has zero tolerance for racism.

I have to agree with HF's first post. Quasi-Nazi imagery (principally the cross and the colours red, white and black) is present in both armies.

There seems no reason why one army is beyond the pale and the other is within, except that it is more complete and better done.

Gentleman,
I fail to understand the reactions to either thread.
We are simply talking about painting toy soldiers right?

Those of you opposed to the depictions on either army:
What are your reactions to those who paint FLAMES OF WAR Nazi miniatures?

How about those players who happen to CHOOSE to play in a fantasy game where they are the Nazi Faction? Isn't that... in a sense, fantasizing you are a Nazi?

In your opinion, at what point does the emotional reactions evoked and graphic statements depicted in a medium of art facilitate your ability to discern what the true intentions of the artist are?

What, in your eyes, is discernible art and what is agenda oriented political propaganda?

Do you know any one that fought in WW2 or for that matter are you related to anyone that was held in a detention camp for being Jewish or NON-Aryan?

I personally wouldnt base a 40k army on a WWII force without making more changes than *I* feel the artist did, whether it is American, German, or French( ), without making very significant changes, simply because otherwise the army would feel out of place or anachronistic. That is the thing with this artist, the army looked like 40k figs that weren't for 40k, if that makes sense.

I still think it was gorgeous though.

paidinfull wrote:Gentleman,
I fail to understand the reactions to either thread.
We are simply talking about painting toy soldiers right?

Those of you opposed to the depictions on either army:
What are your reactions to those who paint FLAMES OF WAR Nazi miniatures?

How about those players who happen to CHOOSE to play in a fantasy game where they are the Nazi Faction? Isn't that... in a sense, fantasizing you are a Nazi?

In your opinion, at what point does the emotional reactions evoked and graphic statements depicted in a medium of art facilitate your ability to discern what the true intentions of the artist are?

What, in your eyes, is discernible art and what is agenda oriented political propaganda?

Do you know any one that fought in WW2 or for that matter are you related to anyone that was held in a detention camp for being Jewish or NON-Aryan?

FOW is a historical game. It is appropriate to play historical armies in that realm.

40K is not an historical game. it hs no place here.

Hordini said it best, PIF.

You can enjoy nazi tanks, airplanes, and machine guns. Hell, those are all sorts of engineering awesomeness. You can do that in FOW. You can do that in 40K, with slight alterations. But neither require you to paint certain blatant icons on your stuff in certain ways.

Incidentally, I don't see the guy's Kreigmarines really looking anything like the Nazis. If it hadn't have been brought up I wouldn't have thought it. No offense to the artist, but it just isnt nearly as well executed as the other one.

The general reaction to this entire thing surprises me a great deal. Especially in light of the overall background of the 40k universe. A Space Emperor using superhuman warriors to purge the human race of "undesireable" influences? Tell me that this does not ring of early 20th century facism.

Yet, this level of influence is not considered problematic. Why? Because it takes something terrible and renders it absurd through homoerotic allegory, and over the top stereotypes. I see each of these armies as doing something quite similar. They take facist iconography and apply it in a setting (toy soldiers) which makes it ludicrous, and thereby palatable.

In any case, simply choosing to artistically represent facist themes in miniature gaming does not require that one identify with the values which were attached to it in the past. If that were the case then any and all space marine players would have to be a deeply closeted homosexual.

HF wrote:

Stormtrooper X wrote:If we're going to go along the lines of "Screw Historics the Nazis were evil bastages" then shouldn't we also get offended when someone plays White Scars or anything modeled after Mongols? Valhallans for being modeled after Stalin's army? Anyone who plays anything that has to do with the Japanese during the 30's and 40's? Perhaps the Spaniards? Please people, they're just miniatures. If someone wants to spend the money and time and effort to paint them in a Nazi like theme then more power to them. To say that some of these culture's are ok to mimic and yet Nazis are some forbidden taboo is ridiculous. If you see a thread with minis painted in a theme you don't like here's an idea... DON'T GO BACK TO THAT THREAD!. Honestly now, it's not that hard.

Mongolian nomadic society still exists though? Also last I checked there werent many victims of the Mongolian horde still alive.

dressing up like a mongol might get you some funny looks, but noone would normally have a problem with it. Try doing it as a Nazi and you'd most likely get your ass kicked. The Nazis weren't very long ago, and many familys were effected by them relatively recently. They waged the single most dispassionate, industrialised and evil genocide in the history of humanity and glorifying them is not only tasteless as hell, but disrespectful.

So all we need is a little time to let the wounds heal? So if I cryogenically freeze my ass with a giant Nazi flag and then pop out in the year 2106 people will just look at me funny and continue on? Time makes it ok for one culture that commited genocide, but not another?

In any case, simply choosing to artistically represent facist themes in miniature gaming does not require that one identify with the values which were attached to it in the past. If that were the case then any and all space marine players would have to be a deeply closeted homosexual.

I have no problems hanging out with my closet homosexual marine buddies. It's cool, bro.

Pretty much.

And yet the question still remains.
What are your reactions to the FOW Nazi Miniatures?

It should be the same standard correct?

If the concern is the glorification and misrepresentation of the Nazi Regime as something other than the way it is depicted in history, than I fail to see how we are able to make an exception. Our emotional response logically should be the same for any representation of Nazi reminiscent imagery. I could even present a side where FOW is worse in that Nazi Germany players as the player has the potential to create an alternate history in which.. . THE NAZIS win.

FOW is a historically based FANTASY game. I make the distinction as the question was rhetorical, drawing a distinction between people who paint a Luftwaffe force for FOW and someone who paints an ork horde as WW2 Panzer Elite Grenadiers is moot. How are we able to make an exception for FOW players who are fantasizing that they are a Nazi general in control of a force that as far as I'm aware of, the majority on here believe are despicable, violent creatures?

When playing a game such as FOW or 40k there is always a level of fantasy, and setting a double standard, as those who are opposed to the depictions in both armies if they are not opposed to Nazi's in FOW, sets a precedence that only what appeals to them visually, tangibly, and politically in that moment is there by socially acceptable at all. That, in my opinion, is contrary to a mentality of natural law. This is good because I say so, but this is ok because I says so.

@JFrazell
I wish you had answered or read the last few questions, I'm not sure if you had, but they address other issues as well.


In your opinion, at what point does the emotional reactions evoked and graphic statements depicted in a medium of art facilitate your ability to discern what the true intentions of the artist are?

What, in your eyes, is discernible art and what is agenda oriented political propaganda?

dogma wrote:The general reaction to this entire thing surprises me a great deal. Especially in light of the overall background of the 40k universe. A Space Emperor using superhuman warriors to purge the human race of "undesireable" influences? Tell me that this does not ring of early 20th century facism.

Yet, this level of influence is not considered problematic. Why? Because it takes something terrible and renders it absurd through homoerotic allegory, and over the top stereotypes. I see each of these armies as doing something quite similar. They take facist iconography and apply it in a setting (toy soldiers) which makes it ludicrous, and thereby palatable.

In any case, simply choosing to artistically represent facist themes in miniature gaming does not require that one identify with the values which were attached to it in the past. If that were the case then any and all space marine players would have to be a deeply closeted homosexual.

You're missing the point. You're confusing a fantasy game with a fantasy empire ( and all the cartoonish stuff) with a real life dictatorship.

Example-
Imperium with xenoist elements (death to the Eldar) ok. No Imperium, no Eldar, no wraithlords.
making a list with lost of guys in white hoods carrying nooses and crosses to burn no ok. See the difference?

paidinfull wrote:

In your opinion, at what point does the emotional reactions evoked and graphic statements depicted in a medium of art facilitate your ability to discern what the true intentions of the artist are?

What, in your eyes, is discernible art and what is agenda oriented political propaganda?

In simple language even a Texan can understand.

If you (generic) put German Nazi iconography on a bunch of toy soldiers in a game that does not have German Nazis in it, then you will be treated like the Nazi troll loser that you are.

edit double post

When someone puts a few icons that are historically-accurate, I call that being true to history. When someone does the same, or attempt to fudge it a little "so it's acceptable", adds a bunch of freehand propaganda posters to the sides of tanks, freehand thor, freehand air-raid bulldozers, and the other stuff, that's pretty clear right there.

I would have no problem if someone decided to do it for the laughs or historical accuracy. It could be "lol look at how silly those germans are with their nationalism!" and that'd be funny. But the way the guy made a whole background for the things, and was serious about it, tends to point in the other direction.

WHat of the fact that this is far more aesthetically staisfying than this lame ***t?

I have more respect for the guy who can freehand circles.

What of it? Other than I can't think of the British one without thinking of Spitfire.

Spitfeuer! Spitfeuer!

jfrazell wrote:What of it? Other than I can't think of the British one without thinking of Spitfire.

Spitfeuer! Spitfeuer!

If I have to spell it out, what if I like that particular icon (as the GW designers that plastered it all over Terminators did), and I choose to put it on my toy soldiers, which aren't, as a matter of fact, replicas of SS soldiers specifically painted for an in-depth narrative campaign set in Berlin ~Spring/Summer 1945?

Time heals all wounds. I think it's a combination of time, and direct influence

Conservatively, I'd say a quarter of the people alive in America and Europe today have a parent or grandparent who was directly involved in the war (as a combatant or as a victim). Thats...a lot of people.

There's significant problems in germany *right now* with the neo-nazis. As was brought up in the other thread, the Thor iconography used is popular with neo-nazis, so he found a way to make it even more obviously nazi (intentional or not).

Stalin, it's not the same - bad as he was, he was doing it mainly to his own people. Same with someone like Pol Pot. I don't think I would be happy with a fantasy army themed around Pol Pot, but there is a difference between them and the Nazis in terms of scope because the Nazi's went to other countries to practice their brutality. So the German army and it's iconography are inextricably linked to that genocide, while you may not have that same strong link with some other atrocities (which doesn't make those atrocities ok...just lessens the impact of theming an army around that country's army)

When you get to things that happened hundreds of years ago, there is a disconnect. Part of it is record keeping and accuracy, part of it is just the lack of a direct connection, part of it is just that the further we go back, the more common brutality and atrocity is.

When you're playing a fantasy game, and your fantasy is Nazi's in space...I'd say you are expecting a reaction. Maybe not from everyone, but from someone. Maybe you just like the colors and think the German army was awesome, too bad about all the genocide and warmongering. And you can do whatever you want with it. But...I'm probably not going to play with you.

If this is historicals, well, then it's completely different. The whole point of the game is to play something historical (the military conflicts of a specific set of countries). In that case, even though I wouldn't personally play the SS, the game can't really exist without it. It is also much easier to accept nazi iconography because "well, thats what they looked like". When you put it on your imperial guard army, the statement is either "I think it looks cool, and don't care what it symbolizes or represents in the real world" or "I think it IS cool". From the outside, no one can actually discern your intent, and we obviously can't ask because we can't expect the truth (hi, oh, yeah, I'm a neo nazi, thanks for asking, would you like a pamphlet?).

I thought it was pretty well-established that it wasn't just one or two icons, but the fact that the guy had many of them.

edit: I'd also like to thank the mods and Dakka that we're able to have a discussion of it here. If this were Warseer, this topic would've been locked already or been flooded with a bunch of 14 year old "HAY GUYZ I TIHNK THE NAZIS WERE COOL TOO LOL, AWESUM CROSSES MAN" posts.

paidinfull wrote:Gentleman,
I fail to understand the reactions to either thread.
We are simply talking about painting toy soldiers right?

Obviously we aren't talking about just painting toy soldiers.

I can paint 'f*ck your mother' on banners and on the sides of my vehicles, think that would be considered 'acceptable'?

No. For the same reason, putting Nazis into 40k isn't accepted by the community.

I see alot of people talk about other 'atrocious' army possibilities like Japs or Soviets...

Well, both are considered 'evil' but in the end much of the 'evil' they perpetrated was on a totally different scale and concept (Japan) or on themselves (Soviets, starting pre-war, going through the war, and continuing post-war).

What the Germans did is on a different level of horror.

There are many holocausts. There is only one Holocaust.

Either you understand this, or you don't.

paidinfull wrote:
Those of you opposed to the depictions on either army:
What are your reactions to those who paint FLAMES OF WAR Nazi miniatures?

It's in the game. So I can deal with it. Note the small scale (and the game designers themselves) don't put swastikas on the German vehicles. They use the iron cross.

So it isn't offensive.

paidinfull wrote:
How about those players who happen to CHOOSE to play in a fantasy game where they are the Nazi Faction? Isn't that... in a sense, fantasizing you are a Nazi?

I'd say it's more like they want to play the evil side of things, and it just happens to be Nazis.

I don't think anyone really fantasizes about being a nazi. I haven't met anyone in gaming in my many years of playing that did so.

paidinfull wrote:
In your opinion, at what point does the emotional reactions evoked and graphic statements depicted in a medium of art facilitate your ability to discern what the true intentions of the artist are?

Little toy men are little toy men.

Putting Nazi symbols on them and calling them your Waffen SS army in 40K isn't art.

Want art? Read Maus. Get back to me on why the SS death camp guards make for a good addition to the 40k world.

paidinfull wrote:
What, in your eyes, is discernible art and what is agenda oriented political propaganda?

I think you're reading too much into this subject.

The SS in 40K offend.

It's as simple as that.

paidinfull wrote:
Do you know any one that fought in WW2

Yes. One grandfather.

paidinfull wrote:or for that matter are you related to anyone that was held in a detention camp for being Jewish or NON-Aryan?

Yes. The other grandfather.

stonefox wrote:I thought it was pretty well-established that it wasn't just one or two icons, but the fact that the guy had many of them.

edit: I'd also like to thank the mods and Dakka that we're able to have a discussion of it here. If this were Warseer, this topic would've been locked already or been flooded with a bunch of 14 year old "HAY GUYZ I TIHNK THE NAZIS WERE COOL TOO LOL, AWESUM CROSSES MAN" posts.

Well that's what I get for not reading the thread then. Still, I think "1,2 fine, 3+ HATE CRIME!!" is still a bit weak.

I think we can all agree, that army was painted fantastically.

I'm not even going to try to get involved in the rest of this discussion.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I should point out that the problem many people will have with the army that stirred up the controversy is not that it evokes historical Nazi themes but that it evokes contemporary Neo-Nazi themes.

To point out the difference in offence, if you walk around central Berlin and see posters advertising History museums with the Swastika on them it is not offensive at all. If you walk past Graffiti where someone has sprayed a Swastika onto a wall along with a racist phrase in poor English (oh the irony) then it is really quite offensive indeed.

There are certain obsessions that Neo-Nazis have today that were not so present in real Nazi circles. While it is true that many members of Hitler's inner circle had some "unusual" beliefs (particularly Himmler) and of course the Nazis did evoke various historical imagery they were in essence just a brutal and militaristic Government who carried out genocide.

Modern Neo-Nazis by contrast are far more esoteric in their beliefs and fetishes. They go heavily into Norse imagery, fantasise about their mythical versions of the past and so on. The fact that that army does not look like a 1940s Wehrmacht army, but rather a Neo-Nazi's idealisation of such an army should send alarm bells ringing.

The modelling uses a lot of fantasy Empire figures for conversions calling up the Holy Roman Empire (the First Reich in Nazi parlance), there are, as other posters have remarked elements of "Kaiser-era" stuff (The Second Reich) as well as actual Third Reich imagery should immediately show that the army has been made with a mind to evoking the national mythology the Nazis alluded to. Add in the "Thor" stuff and you have another Classic Neo-Nazi obsession: Odinism.

To be sure, none of these things would be remotely problematic in isolation, but the fact that they all combine in this way that reflects exactly the fetishes of twenty first century Neo-Nazi subculture does raise concern.

The first one was awesome. The second one not so good, not that it would raise anything more than a slight shrug from me. If someone started spouting off about their racial proclivaties I'd label them a d*ck, but they can paint arm bands on their Commissars until the cows come home as far as I care. They can model smashed up zebra-skin shields on their Praetorians for that matter too.

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

stonefox wrote:I thought it was pretty well-established that it wasn't just one or two icons, but the fact that the guy had many of them.

edit: I'd also like to thank the mods and Dakka that we're able to have a discussion of it here. If this were Warseer, this topic would've been locked already or been flooded with a bunch of 14 year old "HAY GUYZ I TIHNK THE NAZIS WERE COOL TOO LOL, AWESUM CROSSES MAN" posts.

Well that's what I get for not reading the thread then. Still, I think "1,2 fine, 3+ HATE CRIME!!" is still a bit weak.

Yeah I sometimes forget that it's an all-or-nothing and attempt to rationalize it with degrees.

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

jfrazell wrote:What of it? Other than I can't think of the British one without thinking of Spitfire.

Spitfeuer! Spitfeuer!

If I have to spell it out, what if I like that particular icon (as the GW designers that plastered it all over Terminators did), and I choose to put it on my toy soldiers, which aren't, as a matter of fact, replicas of SS soldiers specifically painted for an in-depth narrative campaign set in Berlin ~Spring/Summer 1945?

Sorry if you like Nazi icons, then too bad.

The Iron Cross preexists Nazi Germany though.

lambadomy wrote:

When you're playing a fantasy game, and your fantasy is Nazi's in space...I'd say you are expecting a reaction. Maybe not from everyone, but from someone. Maybe you just like the colors and think the German army was awesome, too bad about all the genocide and warmongering. And you can do whatever you want with it. But...I'm probably not going to play with you.

If this is historicals, well, then it's completely different. The whole point of the game is to play something historical (the military conflicts of a specific set of countries). In that case, even though I wouldn't personally play the SS, the game can't really exist without it. It is also much easier to accept nazi iconography because "well, thats what they looked like". When you put it on your imperial guard army, the statement is either "I think it looks cool, and don't care what it symbolizes or represents in the real world" or "I think it IS cool". From the outside, no one can actually discern your intent, and we obviously can't ask because we can't expect the truth (hi, oh, yeah, I'm a neo nazi, thanks for asking, would you like a pamphlet?).

Yea, what he said!

jfrazell wrote:
You're missing the point. You're confusing a fantasy game with a fantasy empire ( and all the cartoonish stuff) with a real life dictatorship.

Example-
Imperium with xenoist elements (death to the Eldar) ok. No Imperium, no Eldar, no wraithlords.
making a list with lost of guys in white hoods carrying nooses and crosses to burn no ok. See the difference?

No, you're missing my point. 40k is a game inspired by all of the worst moments in human history rolled into one single mass of terrible impending doom. It's not the fact that the Imperium persecutes Eldar or other fictionalized dissidents. It's the fact that the model of persecution utilized and rhetoric behind it very directly lifted from human history and then reconstructed so as to be considered different. GW did nothing different than the two posters in question. They took a look at history's worst chapters and said "Cool, we can turn this into an artistic narative." So my point still stands. If painting an army in Nazi inspired iconography makes one a Nazi,then playing 40k makes one a xenophobic, fascist supporter of all things which are considered wrong with mankind.

If playing 40K makes me a raving anti Tyranid xenoist then I'm ok with that.

Its a simple thing. As Stelek pointed out, there are lots of things not permitted on minis by societal norms. This is one of them. Get over it.

jfrazell wrote:

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

jfrazell wrote:What of it? Other than I can't think of the British one without thinking of Spitfire.

Spitfeuer! Spitfeuer!

If I have to spell it out, what if I like that particular icon (as the GW designers that plastered it all over Terminators did), and I choose to put it on my toy soldiers, which aren't, as a matter of fact, replicas of SS soldiers specifically painted for an in-depth narrative campaign set in Berlin ~Spring/Summer 1945?

Sorry if you like Nazi icons, then too bad.

The Iron Cross preexists Nazi Germany though.

So does the Swastika. I'm glad we're in agreement that it's ok to paint your boys any way you like.

Are these the Nazis, Walter?
No Donnie, these men are cowards.

I always find Americans' holier-than-thou attitude a bit strange. Some keep pointing out other countries' genocides, yet never stop and remember how exactly North America came to be populated by peoples of European descent. I guess it's not genocide if you win.

paidinfull wrote:Do you know any one that fought in WW2 or for that matter are you related to anyone that was held in a detention camp for being Jewish or NON-Aryan?

Yes, my cousins' grandparents met in a camp in which they had been imprisoned by the US government for being NON-Aryan (of Japanese descent). In war there are no good guys - only bad guys and less-bad guys.

Would it be in bad taste to paint up the Planetkiller to look like the Enola Gay? If so, why?

stonefox wrote:

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

stonefox wrote:I thought it was pretty well-established that it wasn't just one or two icons, but the fact that the guy had many of them.

edit: I'd also like to thank the mods and Dakka that we're able to have a discussion of it here. If this were Warseer, this topic would've been locked already or been flooded with a bunch of 14 year old "HAY GUYZ I TIHNK THE NAZIS WERE COOL TOO LOL, AWESUM CROSSES MAN" posts.

Well that's what I get for not reading the thread then. Still, I think "1,2 fine, 3+ HATE CRIME!!" is still a bit weak.

Yeah I sometimes forget that it's an all-or-nothing and attempt to rationalize it with degrees.

This thread should be a good reminder.

And I don't care. I *personally* don't have a Nazi themed army, but I would not be concerned about what "societal norms" were if I did. If it came between what offends other people and doing what *I* want to do, then guess which one is going to happen. This silliness is probably the very reason they're having issues with neo-nazism in Germany right now. I wouldnt be suprised if some of those kids don't give a damn one way or another but are doing it just to get on your case. Apparently Germany persists in the concept that they can edit their history by just making everything dealing with National Socialism illegal.

As for the "1,2 fine, 3+ HATE CRIME!!" line...

I don't actually think that is untrue. SOME of the symbolism is maybe ok on its own, or in a different context. For example, the iron cross by itself or in an obviously WWI germany themed army...i don't think I would take offense. Same with the Thor iconography or the empire bits. Each on its own doesn't mean much. Combined however and they tell a different story.

This can be contrasted with something like a swastika. Sure it has different historical meaning...but if you put a red and white flag with a swastika on it on your 40k mini...you've already passed your limit.

The point, I guess, is some things are Nazi symbols, while other things are only nazi symbols in aggregate or in the right context, either because they're also someone elses symbols, or because they're just not strongly associated individually.

jfrazell wrote:If playing 40K makes me a raving anti Tyranid xenoist then I'm ok with that.

Its a simple thing. As Stelek pointed out, there are lots of things not permitted on minis by societal norms. This is one of them. Get over it.

Frankly jfrazell, I would never have expected *you* to jump on the PC bandwagon. I'm a little dissapointed, and I might just shed a little tear

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

jfrazell wrote:

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

jfrazell wrote:What of it? Other than I can't think of the British one without thinking of Spitfire.

Spitfeuer! Spitfeuer!

If I have to spell it out, what if I like that particular icon (as the GW designers that plastered it all over Terminators did), and I choose to put it on my toy soldiers, which aren't, as a matter of fact, replicas of SS soldiers specifically painted for an in-depth narrative campaign set in Berlin ~Spring/Summer 1945?

Sorry if you like Nazi icons, then too bad.

The Iron Cross preexists Nazi Germany though.

So does the Swastika. I'm glad we're in agreement that it's ok to paint your boys any way you like.

We are not.

Don't be obtuse. Swastikas do not predate Nazi Germany in Germany. You see a Swastika you think "Nazis why are they always Nazis," and unleash the power of Ark upon their swiny butts. You see an Iron Cross and you think Snoopy sitting on his house doing battle with the Red Baron.

Stelek wrote:I see alot of people talk about other 'atrocious' army possibilities like Japs or Soviets...

Well, both are considered 'evil' but in the end much of the 'evil' they perpetrated was on a totally different scale and concept (Japan) or on themselves (Soviets, starting pre-war, going through the war, and continuing post-war).

What the Germans did is on a different level of horror.

There are many holocausts. There is only one Holocaust.

Either you understand this, or you don't.

paidinfull wrote:
Do you know any one that fought in WW2

Yes. One grandfather.

paidinfull wrote:or for that matter are you related to anyone that was held in a detention camp for being Jewish or NON-Aryan?

Yes. The other grandfather.

Since you were directly affected by this particular atrocity you are holding it higher than others only because it happened to you, not because of scale or concept. The Holocaust was not the worst part of human history despite how bad it was.

lambadomy wrote:

Stalin, it's not the same - bad as he was, he was doing it mainly to his own people. Same with someone like Pol Pot. I don't think I would be happy with a fantasy army themed around Pol Pot, but there is a difference between them and the Nazis in terms of scope because the Nazi's went to other countries to practice their brutality.

Stalin and Pol Pot were much worse, and they did it to their own people to perpetuate their power, not because of some absurd ideal. That is in my opinion much worse than hating other people. People always hate other people, but systematically killing your own people is even worse.

jfrazell wrote:

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

jfrazell wrote:

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

jfrazell wrote:What of it? Other than I can't think of the British one without thinking of Spitfire.

Spitfeuer! Spitfeuer!

If I have to spell it out, what if I like that particular icon (as the GW designers that plastered it all over Terminators did), and I choose to put it on my toy soldiers, which aren't, as a matter of fact, replicas of SS soldiers specifically painted for an in-depth narrative campaign set in Berlin ~Spring/Summer 1945?

Sorry if you like Nazi icons, then too bad.

The Iron Cross preexists Nazi Germany though.

So does the Swastika. I'm glad we're in agreement that it's ok to paint your boys any way you like.

We are not.

Don't be obtuse. Swastikas do not predate Nazi Germany in Germany. You see a Swastika you think "Nazis why are they always Nazis," and unleash the power of Ark upon their swiny butts. You see an Iron Cross and you think Snoopy sitting on his house doing battle with the Red Baron.

I'm not familiar with this "Snoopy" character. I relate the Iron Cross to Nazis, and as I'm a sensitive soul I shouldn't be exposed to it unless I'm playing Flames of War.

Grignard wrote: If it came between what offends other people and doing what *I* want to do, then guess which one is going to happen.

True you can do that. Don't count on getting any games outside of your house though.

I find it amusing watching people argue about what despot was worse. If the Germans had one the war, then we'd be sitting here arguing about how someone had put a sickle and hammer on their tank and how terrible that is. In the end it doesnt really matter

jfrazell wrote:

Grignard wrote: If it came between what offends other people and doing what *I* want to do, then guess which one is going to happen.

True you can do that. Don't count on getting any games outside of your house though.

You know, I wouldnt require my opponent to fit in with the "norms" of society for me to play him. That is basic good sportsmanship

As for 40k being actually inspired by these regimes, I think that's taking it too far.

Inspired by is not the same as "uses all of the symbolism of" which is one of the main issues here. Being vaguely related to fascisim and having gothic architecture is not the same boat.

The reality of 40k is that as much as the imperium oppresses people and is xenophobic...a lot of it is game-world justified. There really are chaos cultists, and they really are trying to destroy the imperium. There really are aliens that are out to get them. There really is a god-emperor. I guess it sucks how they treat heretics and psykers, but once you've had a few planets go over to chaos or get destroyed by a psyker maybe you change your tune.

Grignard wrote:Apparently Germany persists in the concept that they can edit their history by just making everything dealing with National Socialism illegal.

That's not true. I have never known a country as honest as Germany in standing up and admitting their own past failings. It is true that the subject was taboo in the past, but they are very open now. Visit any History Museum in Germany and it will deal with the national socialist period in all the detail and honesty the subject deserves.

I might argue that Austria does what you criticise Germany for, but that is another matter.

As for Germany's Neo-Nazi problem, that has nothing to do with their approach to history. All the Eastern block countries have had social upheaval as part of their transition to Western style society and that has bread extreme right attitudes amongst sections of the youth in nearly all these countries. And that very much includes the former East Germany. West Germany historically had a bit of a Neo-Nazi problem which could be embarrassing but was simply to be expected given the past. East Germany kept a lid on the problem through the expected brutality. The upshot with that is, while what made up West Germany still only has a small problem with such people, the East has quite a big problem.

Really I just want to play with my toys. I'd play the guy, I really don't care

Grignard wrote: You know, I wouldnt require my opponent to fit in with the "norms" of society for me to play him. That is basic good sportsmanship

Thats the crux of it though isn't it. I consider it basic good sportsmanship to bring a list that is not designed to offend people around me. As Stelek said, showing up with tanks that say F You Marine Players is both rude, boorish, and designed to get a response. Certain iconography will have the same effect. You know it when you put it on, else you wouldn't do it.

Frankly jfrazell, I would never have expected *you* to jump on the PC bandwagon. I'm a little dissapointed, and I might just shed a little tear

Don’t misconstrue Griggy. Assuming this were the US you have an absolute right under the Constitution to do what you want. I have an absolute right to call you pond scum and help insure that you never play in the store again. Freedom of speech goes both ways.

I'm not familiar with this "Snoopy" character. I relate the Iron Cross to Nazis, and as I'm a sensitive soul I shouldn't be exposed to it unless I'm playing Flames of War.

Works for me. In general I don’t want real world icons in a fantasy game. Having said that, intent means a lot. Putting Otto von Bismark’s image on your tank may mean nothing other than “I like monocled fat guys who the Kaiser should have listened to before doing that stupid invade France thing.” Putting a badly done image of Hitler or Pol Pot means something completely absolutely different.

Demogorgon wrote:

Grignard wrote:Apparently Germany persists in the concept that they can edit their history by just making everything dealing with National Socialism illegal.

That's not true. I have never known a country as honest as Germany in standing up and admitting their own past failings. It is true that the subject was taboo in the past, but they are very open now. Visit any History Museum in Germany and it will deal with the national socialist period in all the detail and honesty the subject deserves.

I might argue that Austria does what you criticise Germany for, but that is another matter.

As for Germany's Neo-Nazi problem, that has nothing to do with their approach to history. All the Eastern block countries have had social upheaval as part of their transition to Western style society and that has bread extreme right attitudes amongst sections of the youth in nearly all these countries. And that very much includes the former East Germany. West Germany historically had a bit of a Neo-Nazi problem which could be embarrassing but was simply to be expected given the past. East Germany kept a lid on the problem through the expected brutality. The upshot with that is, while what made up West Germany still only has a small problem with such people, the East has quite a big problem.

I didnt mean museums and such. But from what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, you cannot purchase something like, say, Mein Kampf legally. Right?

jfrazell wrote:
Don’t misconstrue Griggy. Assuming this were the US you have an absolute right under the Constitution to do what you want. I have an absolute right to call you pond scum and help insure that you never play in the store again. Freedom of speech goes both ways.

Making a piece of art and colluding to ostracize a person because you disagree with them is not the same. I'm sorry, I disagree

I'm not going to use quotes or name names in this post as I really don't think it's appropriate given the topic, and the fact that this forum should not be offensive to anyone. I think including anything of that nature can't help but offend.

But anyways...

This kind of makes me want to go dig up my Tallarn desert raiders and paint them as Al Qaeda...

I have only one thing to say to the people that wouldn't play against the army.

Don't you think that makes you about as good as what you think that army is standing for? Let's just start an "armycide" on anything themed Nazi, Communist or whatever else you stand against. It's art, controversial or not. As long as the owner of that army isn't in there preaching fascism, racism, sexism, or any other "malicious" -ism I've got absolutely no problem with someone painting their army in the colors of the "enemy".

I also find it disturbing that there's been a few people who have confused Germans with Nazis. Not every German was a Nazi, in fact, many were appalled to discover what had been going on inside their own borders.

Also a big reason Nazis are identified with the Cross and such is because when you're trying to create a clear and bold image of your enemy. Let's face it, most villains have the "cooler" uniforms because they're supposed to be easily identifiable. Cobra always looked cooler than GI Joe, Decepticons more than Autobots, and even the mutants in Thundercats.

And yes... I'm bringing cartoons into this because I really think it shows how silly this all is. Also, anything that calls back to history and gets anyone interested in finding out more about it should be congratulated for sparking interest. How are we going to learn from our mistakes if we don't learn from the ones our forefathers made?

No collusion Griggy (and I respect your opinion). Just straight on pressure directly at management.

You have freedom of speech to put your icon on. I have freedom of speech to call you a poopy head. The store has the freedom to no longer desire your custom. Its when people don't take respsonibility for their actions, want to act without repurcussions, is where its PCish.

Grignard wrote:
I didnt mean museums and such. But from what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, you cannot purchase something like, say, Mein Kampf legally. Right?

It is complicated. You can possess Mein Kampf legally, but shops are very unlikely to sell it. Virtually all public libraries carry it though, but they are versions with very extensive notes written post war.

The anti-Nazi laws in Germany are really quite complicated. Public display of Nazi symbolism is illegal except for historical or educational purposes. But I have seen people do it all the same and get away with it.

The Nazi Party is obviously forbidden to reform, but the National Democratic party is legal and has seats in some of the state parliaments and a lot of people think that it is the successor of the Nazi party. So far attempts in the courts to ban it have failed though, and I seriously doubt they will ever succeed.

I think that something which hasn't been said is that the Armored Company guy was obviously a neo-Nazi. You could tell just by looking at his army. The three Reichs imagery, and especially the Odinist imagery, made it obvious. For me, wargaming is a social activity, and I don't socialize with neo-Nazis, period. Playing a historically-accurate WWII German army doesn't really say much to me about the political proclivities of the gamer who owns it. That armored company made a clear statement to me.

It's bloody gorgeous though, I have to admit.

I can't name another part of human history that killed so many as did the events before, during, and immediately after the Nazis fell from power. Tens of millions died fighting that war, and millions more were gassed. In terms of death, it's at the top. I can only hope it stays there, and isn't surpassed anytime soon.

Yes, Stalin and Pol Pot killed many. Sadly, Stalin is truly in a class by himself. Pol Pot was, by comparison, nothing next to Stalin. There's alot of reasons Russia is a vast empty wasteland without people these days. #1: Stalin. #2: Hitler. #3: Everybody else since then.

I'm not mindless, you know. Darfur ways heavily on my conscience. Still, in the end, the real question is:

Is it appropriate to field armies of Nazis in 40K?

The answer for me is no.

This thread has gone pretty far OT. The very idea of trying to figure out which mass-murder and human rights crime was worst seems pointless and in bad taste.

As to the actual armies in question- one has neo-nazi themes. Neo-nazis still exist and hurt and terrorize people. The Imperial Guard does not exist and has never hurt anyone. Same for the Space Marines. Get it? One is fake, the other is real. Real and current. Bringing echoes of real hate and real terror and real violence into what I consider a fun pastime (especially one with a science fiction/fantasy setting) isn't necessary.

40k is not a historical. I am surprised by some peoples arguments here that basically portray it as being "historically based." Historicals are another animal entirely. I have no problems reenacting WW2. There is a didactic purpose is remembering (and even reacting in games) war and atrocity- to prevent its recurrence.

I don't really care what other people paint and play with, but I wouldn't play against that army. It's a personal choice, and I have no problems with the creators of the two armies in question at all, nor anyone who likes them. I'm not even arguing others shouldn't play them, or that they should be banned, but for me personally these two examples cross a line that I won't. That's my choice- and I am encouraged that others here a willing to elaborate their choices, even if I disagree with them.

I don't understand, guys.

What the heck is all the fuss about?

I saw GMM's beautiful army & tried to look at the Kriegmarines, but work blocks that guy's photo hosting site. I'll have to look at those later. I can only speak on GMM, now.

I mean, when I look at GMM's army (which REALLY bumps his "commission painter credibility" in my eyes), I see a fantastically painted army that has elements of fantasy, Norse Mythology, and WWII showing up as definite influences.

What I do NOT see are Nazis.

Some background on me:

I am born & bred in the USA and the colors of the US flag run deep in my veins.
I'm the proud son of a US Marine and military service runs in both sides of my family.
On my mothers side, I have Native American (Cherokee) heritage and, on my fathers, I have Polish and German. My fraternal Great Grandparents ran to the US to escape the Nazis. I have no known relatives that were Nazis or sympathizers.
I have heritage from other nations, as well, but the 3 above are all that will matter.

As you can see, I have history of repression, genocide (victims) and abuse on both sides of my family. I would quality to be insulted by a Nazi or "caucasian" army.

So, the guy used red on his stuff. Many have offered this as a part of a group of issues that makes the cohesive into a larger problem (along with Nordic background, WWII influences & blonde hair). Big frigging deal. Would the army be okay to you if he used blue instead?

The fact is, red is a powerful color. It draws the eye to it and, if painted well, is one of the most striking colors you can put on ANY model.
Someone pointed out that his army is all caucasian. Would it be okay if they were all NON-caucasian? Or would that be viewed as a further slight on non-whites (Hurr hurr. Look! Black Nazis! Hurr hurr. I'm clever.).
So, he uses iconography that Nazi's did? Whoopa-dee-doo. Nazi's weren't the first or last to use any of their symbols, I'm sure.

Just because Charles Manson had a twisted view of the bible & the song "Helter Skelter" doesn't make either of those things inherently bad.

They can all trace their heritage back to Thor (obviously not the "real" Thor, though) and have blonde hair.
Oh, no. Blonde hair. What shall we do?

Would it be more acceptable if they were all redheads? What if they were redheads and it was Odin, instead of Thor?

Look, you're going to look at anything you want and see anything you want.
I can pick out a half dozen names here on Dakka & point out how they could be considered racist or vulgur, if you connect the dots right.

You are going to see what you look for. I see a well thought out, awesomely painted army that has mythological and real-world influences.
...and, before anyone says real world influences don't belong in a game, remember that you're playing a game that has the DKoK. Think about whether or not you've ever said how cool they are. They have a definite real-world influence.
Heck, MOST things in 40K do (Emperor = Jesus reference).

Eric

Once I finish my WW1/WW2 Brits I really want to play these guys. Bring your A-game, guys. Cuz we all knows what happens in the end.

Actually the only part that I take exception to in that army are the German propoganda posters.

That's the banner with the...banner waver and the blue poster on the FW basilisk.

Those are indeed WW2 Nazi propoganda posters. Those aren't appropriate in a toy game. Probably not real good judgement on the part of the person making it.

I guess my question would be, if he wasn't looking to sow discord then where was his P&M blog for all to see and comment on when he was making said army?

Right.

You're insinuating that his WIP blog was in some sort of neo-nazi forum, aren't you? Well sir, that is utterly rude and disrespectful. That fine fellow wasn't trying to evoke emotion by posting his army. He was merely doing us all a favor by telling us how awesome those cool dudes in their awesome tanks were.

He says tongue planted firmly in cheek?

@OP
It is my opinion that if an individual or community finds the GMM thread offensive then they should find the Kriegmarines and FOW models offensive as well.

The perceived offense that many derived from GMM's army can be accomplished in a multitude of different ways and the majority of us who are claiming to be offended are negligent to our own inconsistencies.

It's my opinion as an artist that art is subjective, only the artist knows for certain what the true intent of the piece is. Anyone who says otherwise... well...

For example,
I paint a picture of a black man holding a pistol having shot another black man in a street. The majority of white people think "gang violence" when the subject of the piece happens to be a lot deeper than that and the men depicted happen to be black... or "african descent" etc.

I think a lot us missed the boat with the Kriegmarines and GMM's Armor company

My issues with the Kriegs is just the badge, and indeed may be unintentional. The armor company is pretty clearly Neo Nazi, especially after GMM's own trolling posts.

FOW is different as its a true historical game. 40K is not an historical game. Its not that hard to observe an easy rule-keep real world iconography out of it (except when making fun of it-Hello Kitty marines Uber Alles).

Having said that, I don't really care about intent. Its common courtesy to steer clear of this stuff. Seriously, focus on playing the game.

stonefox wrote:You're insinuating that his WIP blog was in some sort of neo-nazi forum, aren't you? Well sir, that is utterly rude and disrespectful. That fine fellow wasn't trying to evoke emotion by posting his army. He was merely doing us all a favor by telling us how awesome those cool dudes in their awesome tanks were.

No, I'm asking why he didn't have one here.

If you are going to crosspost a questionable army across the internet because you want everyone to see it, why would you not do a WIP blog?

If you wanted to bury the questionable pieces in pics of otherwise acceptable models without having someone ask 'hey are you painting a nazi propoganda poster, dude' in the middle of it. That's what it looks like to me.

I looked and didn't find a blog for this army on warseer or on dakka.

He isn't a fine fellow in my book. You can like the propoganda being painted and accept at face value 'but really, I just love all kinds of propoganda posters'.

Well, here's some for you. Tell me how you'd like them to be painted on your army and how it's "ok".



Since it bears directly on this conversation, this one IS painted on his freaking tanks. It's an SS recruiting poster. But that's ok, right?



That's THIS pic.



That other banner he painted, well I can't find it but I remember it well. It's a call to arms to fight the Russians poster. Gee, just what we need.

Kill Russkies and Jews, right on the tabletop.

GMMStudio wrote:I say no compromises. Don't let the internet dictate to you to lessen what is a perfectly awesome army that is full of unique fluff, interesting paint schemes, and perfectly valid real world history and influence. Compromise is weakness, and no loyal son of either the Emperor or the Fatherland would do it.

And this?

jfrazell wrote:My issues with the Kriegs is just the badge, and indeed may be unintentional. The armor company is pretty clearly Neo Nazi, especially after GMM's own trolling posts.

That's a different guy though. Him, Stonefox, HF and others are engaging in some sort of circle-jerk for social inadequates. Pretty sophisticated stuff, but ultimately a bit

I cant see the pix cause my work blocks em but Ill comment when I get home.

Well its a Friday and I'm at work so its all good (until closing time that is).

Stelek I can't see your comps.

There's a direct link here.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters2.htm

It's not enjoyable. :(

My favorite is the one with the two guys holding hands.

Sorry for skipping many of the posts, but I want to address one common question: what is it about Nazi Germany (as opposed to non-nazi germans, even in WW2; or similarly horrific regimes like Mongols, Imperial Japan, Stalinist USSR or the Khmer Rouge) that so offends and bothers people?

I have, IMHO, a theory as to why Nazis, more then any other iconography, are forbidden. Other villians in world history are "others," either culturally, racially, theologically, etc. While the Japanese committed war crimes, their culture was so alien to ours that it didn't shock us as badly. Even the USSR was utterly different from Western Europe in many ways, and there was a strong ability of the West to say "we're nothing like that, they are clearly wrong."

The horror to many people of Nazism is that Germany was not mysterious and strange. It was a modern, industrial, sort of democratic christian nation. They had rule of law, elections, a free press. The people of the majority didn't suffer under their rule, in fact standard of living rose every year in germany until halfway through the war. What's terrifying about them is how easily the same could happen to the UK, to the US, to the EU. Look around: it's not hard to find governments speaking of fear, commentators casting blame at minorities or otherwise suspect classes.

If I built a White scars army, nobody for a second would assume I want to gather my ponies and my wives and pillage central asia. Nobody thinks valhallan players want to create a tyrrany of the people. However, the beliefs of National Socialism: fervent nationalism, fear of the outsider, industrial strenth, purity of thought: these are strands of behaviour that we see, and fear, and are constantly, as a culture, warring against.

I apologize if this comes off as presumptious or arrogant, but i think that many of the people that are offended by Nazi symbolism in 40k are afraid of that: the legitimate reality of ideals returning. For those who don't see why anybody would be offended, I hope this illustrates a little why it's such a strong taboo in our culture.

Thanks for the link, there's some great stuff on there. I particularly like the chessboard with the caption that reads, "Check the war-mongers of the world." Clever... Also the German knight with the sword was a pretty striking image too. I bookmarked it, as I think if I modify some of the imagery it'll look great sprawled across the side of my Baneblade!

Oh wow some of them are pretty much copies of these posters aren't they.

jfrazell wrote:No collusion Griggy (and I respect your opinion). Just straight on pressure directly at management.

You have freedom of speech to put your icon on. I have freedom of speech to call you a poopy head. The store has the freedom to no longer desire your custom. Its when people don't take respsonibility for their actions, want to act without repurcussions, is where its PCish.

I guess I just don't understand then. If I was in your FLGS, I would *not* try to drive that person off. I guess I just wouldnt be offended by it. I suppose I just don't understand people. If someone came in with something like that painted on a tank, I probably would probably just see how well executed it was. Or if it was something like Hitler painted on it, I'd probably think it was funny.

paidinfull wrote:It's my opinion as an artist that art is subjective, only the artist knows for certain what the true intent of the piece is. Anyone who says otherwise... well...

Oh, I agree. However, I also believe that art is intended to communicate. What that armoured company communicated to me was, "I am in love with a mythologized version of German nationalism."

As an art consumer, I think to myself, "Where have I seen imagery such as this before? Oh yes, in that book about neo-Nazis. This man is probably a neo-Nazi."

Now, obviously, as you point out, I could be wrong. But if I stopped having opinions because I could be wrong, well, I wouldn't have any opinions at all.

Demogorgon wrote:

Grignard wrote:
I didnt mean museums and such. But from what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, you cannot purchase something like, say, Mein Kampf legally. Right?

It is complicated. You can possess Mein Kampf legally, but shops are very unlikely to sell it. Virtually all public libraries carry it though, but they are versions with very extensive notes written post war.

The anti-Nazi laws in Germany are really quite complicated. Public display of Nazi symbolism is illegal except for historical or educational purposes. But I have seen people do it all the same and get away with it.

The Nazi Party is obviously forbidden to reform, but the National Democratic party is legal and has seats in some of the state parliaments and a lot of people think that it is the successor of the Nazi party. So far attempts in the courts to ban it have failed though, and I seriously doubt they will ever succeed.

Thanks. Im just going on what I've heard, I havent seen the laws over there myself.

jfrazell wrote:If playing 40K makes me a raving anti Tyranid xenoist then I'm ok with that.

Its a simple thing. As Stelek pointed out, there are lots of things not permitted on minis by societal norms. This is one of them. Get over it.

Again you completely missed my point. The xenophobia has nothing to do with Tyranids; literally none whatsoever. Its not as though hatred of Tyranids or any other 40k race created the concept. No, GW lifted it from history and then used it as an artistic element in the 40k universe; again, just as GWW did with his appropriation of Nazi imagery.

If your logic makes any sense then xenophobia, a concept which is nowhere near accepted within modern society. Should have no place in any artistic narative as it trivializes the concept and offends others. Yet I know for certain you have no issue with it as you are posting on a 40k message board. All you're doing here is splitting hairs in an attempt to censor a specific element of historical fact with which you are not comfortable.

Er...when did GW "lift it from history?" IOther than the great plagues and that whole British Beetles invasion I can't remember any big bug eyed alien invasions of Earth.

Also xenophobia as defined in 40K is a fear of alien races. Real aliens. Speciesism would be more accurate. Its is one of 40Ks positives that real world racism doesn't exist.

jfrazell wrote:Also xenophobia as defined in 40K is a fear of alien races. Real aliens. Speciesism would be more accurate. Its is one of 40Ks positives that real world racism doesn't exist.

How can you say that, after the Great Squaticide?

You could say it's an allegory to real-life racism too. 'Dem darkies with the big eyes and noses can be orks or whatever substitutions you wanna make.

I'm pretty sure that some of the kids that I know who play 40k DO use the game as a socially-acceptable way to vent out their otherwise unacceptable racist tendencies. You can tell by the way they say "For the Emperor!" and "Death to Xenos!" a little too enthusiastically as well. Maybe they're just too into the game, dunno, but it's the little things that make you wonder.

The arguement of "Nazis is evils cuz they did it to others and Stalinz is okays cuz he didz it to his ownz" is the most pathetic attempt ever. Austrian Jews are more important than Ukrainians? Please. If it offends your oh so precious bubble then stop looking at it. Hell, it's easier than actually looking at it. To keep looking at it you have to click and the do all kinds of scrolling and "ZOMG IT'Z NATZI'S AND ALL!" when you could... just click the Forum Index icon and never look back. Try it sometime... it's not hard.

I think it's amazing that this thread, which started with a violation of Godwin's Law, has made it this far without degenerating into lamentable foolishness. Kudos, all. I love Dakka.

I don't think anyone said that, stormtrooper.

You can't not look this subject right in the face and confront it, stormtrooper. No ones precious bubble was hurt by looking away 70 years ago, right? We all learned that lesson, so we speak up now.

Let the neo-nazis have an inch, they'll take your life.

Thinking otherwise is just...well, baaa.

Stelek wrote:I don't think anyone said that, stormtrooper.

You can't not look this subject right in the face and confront it, stormtrooper. No ones precious bubble was hurt by looking away 70 years ago, right? We all learned that lesson, so we speak up now.

Let the neo-nazis have an inch, they'll take your life.

Thinking otherwise is just...well, baaa.

Of course. They'll take your *life*. All the so called neo-nazis ( and those you *choose* to define that way) are out to get you personally. I can't believe everyone is this upset about this.

When you play warhammer, you are accepting that you are taking part in a social game, one that is meant to be played with others. Because of this, you also must accept that while you may not understand, believe, or care about what others think, how they think, or what they perceive, you are still judged and expected to operate within that specific pocket of society's baseline of acceptable.

For example:
I go play Jfrazell back in Tejas, and I decide to bring my heavily converted and wonderfully painted (two things I am incapable of doing, so we know this hypothetical) IG army that is made to look like Santa Ana's army having relations with the defenders of the Alamo. I am particularly proud of my Commisar, who is a near identical representation of Santa Ana, and I show Jfraz this model who is based on top a pile of Texans with the phrase "Chingate gringos".
Now, I don't know Jfraz. I don't know where his level of humor, discomfort, and rage might meet. I don't know the other players. While I may think it is merely a wonderful and ironic subversion of the mythology of a specific war, that sure as hell doesn't mean that everyone else is going to see it my way. I have to accept this and accept that my deviation runs the risk of being met with unfavorable consequences, regardless of whether or not those consequences are fair or just. So, bringing this army to Texas, I either A.) Know exactly how it could be read by others and so I accept I am going to run very counter to other's opinion for my own amusement or B.) Totally clueless. Neither is a fun place to be in. A makes me sort of a dick. B makes me an idiot.

If you are going to do an army using very specific and generally considered loaded imagery, you have to accept that some people, maybe a lot of people, will want nothing to do with you. You make the choice, unless you are unaware of the meaning of the imagery, to evoke emotions out of people and sometimes those emotions mean expulsion from a store, some nasty arguments, or a large bald man whispering into your ear about initiation for "the brotherhood".

I dont think that is necessarily what is going on here. The imagery wasnt explicitly Nazi and I doubt was specifically engineered to be offensive. It looks like propaganda from a totalitarian regime, which happens to be what the imperium of man is in the 40k universe.

The imagery on two of those tanks were WW2 Propoganda posters put out by Goebbels.

Gee, who would be offended by SS recruiting posters?

Silly us.

lemurking23 wrote:When you play warhammer, you are accepting that you are taking part in a social game, one that is meant to be played with others. Because of this, you also must accept that while you may not understand, believe, or care about what others think, how they think, or what they perceive, you are still judged and expected to operate within that specific pocket of society's baseline of acceptable.

For example:
I go play Jfrazell back in Tejas, and I decide to bring my heavily converted and wonderfully painted (two things I am incapable of doing, so we know this hypothetical) IG army that is made to look like Santa Ana's army having relations with the defenders of the Alamo. I am particularly proud of my Commisar, who is a near identical representation of Santa Ana, and I show Jfraz this model who is based on top a pile of Texans with the phrase "Chingate gringos".
Now, I don't know Jfraz. I don't know where his level of humor, discomfort, and rage might meet. I don't know the other players. While I may think it is merely a wonderful and ironic subversion of the mythology of a specific war, that sure as hell doesn't mean that everyone else is going to see it my way. I have to accept this and accept that my deviation runs the risk of being met with unfavorable consequences, regardless of whether or not those consequences are fair or just. So, bringing this army to Texas, I either A.) Know exactly how it could be read by others and so I accept I am going to run very counter to other's opinion for my own amusement or B.) Totally clueless. Neither is a fun place to be in. A makes me sort of a dick. B makes me an idiot.

If you are going to do an army using very specific and generally considered loaded imagery, you have to accept that some people, maybe a lot of people, will want nothing to do with you. You make the choice, unless you are unaware of the meaning of the imagery, to evoke emotions out of people and sometimes those emotions mean expulsion from a store, some nasty arguments, or a large bald man whispering into your ear about initiation for "the brotherhood".

Excellent example.

The only army I play in Flames of war are Germans. I have an ss army as well as a grenadier and panzer grenadier armies, I have yet to have anyone be offended by any of those armies. So I am curious how anyone would be offended by a 40k army modeled after said regime, since I am in the process of acquiring my Death Korp of Krieg army which will be painted in german colours. Of course it is easy to hate the nazis for the horrors they have casued and deservedly so but imagine if the French were not quite as angry about thier embarassing beating by the Germans in world War 1 and did not demand the reparations that crippled the german economy and left the populace destitute and desparate for anyone who could fix the mess.


And if you want to go in terms of fluff the Imperium seems to routinely erradicate large sections of a population on even the suspicion of chaos taint. Not to mention comissars who can just randomly people for no reason at all with no need to actually justifiy it to anyone.

If only you were educated slightly better, Namaan. You'd know what you just spouted was mein kampf at it's best.

Nothing remotely close to the truth.

I wonder if you even know what the Weimar republic is.

Sigh.

Stelek wrote:The imagery on two of those tanks were WW2 Propoganda posters put out by Goebbels.

Gee, who would be offended by SS recruiting posters?

Silly us.

I'm sorry Stelek. When I saw those I it didnt make me angry, raise my blood pressure, or even necessarily make me think the guy was a neo-nazi. I realize it was influenced by imagery of that period, but I dont see the problem. I'm not trying to argue it, I just really do not understand where you're coming from.

lambadomy wrote:Time heals all wounds. I think it's a combination of time, and direct influence

Conservatively, I'd say a quarter of the people alive in America and Europe today have a parent or grandparent who was directly involved in the war (as a combatant or as a victim). Thats...a lot of people.

There's significant problems in germany *right now* with the neo-nazis. As was brought up in the other thread, the Thor iconography used is popular with neo-nazis, so he found a way to make it even more obviously nazi (intentional or not).

Stalin, it's not the same - bad as he was, he was doing it mainly to his own people. Same with someone like Pol Pot. I don't think I would be happy with a fantasy army themed around Pol Pot, but there is a difference between them and the Nazis in terms of scope because the Nazi's went to other countries to practice their brutality. So the German army and it's iconography are inextricably linked to that genocide, while you may not have that same strong link with some other atrocities (which doesn't make those atrocities ok...just lessens the impact of theming an army around that country's army)

When you get to things that happened hundreds of years ago, there is a disconnect. Part of it is record keeping and accuracy, part of it is just the lack of a direct connection, part of it is just that the further we go back, the more common brutality and atrocity is.

When you're playing a fantasy game, and your fantasy is Nazi's in space...I'd say you are expecting a reaction. Maybe not from everyone, but from someone. Maybe you just like the colors and think the German army was awesome, too bad about all the genocide and warmongering. And you can do whatever you want with it. But...I'm probably not going to play with you.

If this is historicals, well, then it's completely different. The whole point of the game is to play something historical (the military conflicts of a specific set of countries). In that case, even though I wouldn't personally play the SS, the game can't really exist without it. It is also much easier to accept nazi iconography because "well, thats what they looked like". When you put it on your imperial guard army, the statement is either "I think it looks cool, and don't care what it symbolizes or represents in the real world" or "I think it IS cool". From the outside, no one can actually discern your intent, and we obviously can't ask because we can't expect the truth (hi, oh, yeah, I'm a neo nazi, thanks for asking, would you like a pamphlet?).

Stelek, this is the post that I was disaproving of. It's a bogus claim that because of the different people massacered it's not the same "scope".

I'll confess... this is a mixed bag for me.

1) I personally dislike all forms of "historical" themes brought into the 40k universe, whether it be a Stars & Bars confederate IG, to a all American-themed IG force, to a Russian WWII re-enactment. I think it takes away from the wonderful background established.

2) That being said, I don't believe these guys deserve any more criticism than anyone else who brings non-40k imagery into the 40k universe.

3) Whoever was the childish git who impersonated GMMStudios should have their ISP tracked and permanently banned. This person has gone a long way to making GMMS look worse than he/she probably is.

4) If you're offended by the imagery presented by these two armies, that's okay. But it's extremely important that you introspectively understand why you're not comfortable with the imagery. If you don't examine why, then any ethical or moral claims lose credence.

4a) It's okay to voice your opinions about not liking the schema presented. It's okay not to play said people. However, lobbying the manager of your FLGS to kick said people out is NOT okay. The manager should make that choice on his/her own. Moreover, the ideal way to effect change in this situation would for the modelers to find that no one will play them. They've been self-ostracized and will either leave or conform to what is deemed socially acceptable. Both alternatives are better than forcibly banning someone from a local. You lose talented gamers, and you lose an opportunity to enlighten someone.

5) I think we need a fantasy check, here (as opposed to a reality check, I suppose). We're operating in a background where untold millions die each day... where there is nothing but war and atrocities. We're talking about a superstitious highly religious oligarchy (the Imperium) that commits horrendous atrocities to its own people (exterminatus, inquisitions, purges, witch hunts, genocide, etc.) all in the name of preserving humanity. Heck, the Witch Hunters destroy psykers and mutants because they are not "pure" humans. The Ogryns, Squats, and Ratlings were lucky enough to be useful in combat, otherwise they probably would've been cleansed too... EDIT: Just to point out the obvious, it seems that it's not just Imperial Roman lore GW draws, but quite possibly some of the darker stuff from WWII et. al.

Guys and gals, our universe is FAR worse than anything the combined forces of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mau Tse Tung, etc. could come up with. The things the primarchs did on their crusades would make each of these despots sit up and take notes. We're dealing with horrible concepts here (I mean, I play Slaaneshi-worshiping marines who take pleasure in arguably the most heinous of acts--rape). The fact that some people artistically bring to light these despicable aspects of our "fluff" through nazi/neo-nazi/socialist/Imperial Japan/etc. imagery isn't wrong at all.

We're not playing My Little Pony Collectible Miniatures Game... We're playing in a game where the "good guys" are just as bad as the "bad guys."

@Geddonight
Very well put.

Grignard wrote:Of course. They'll take your *life*. All the so called neo-nazis ( and those you *choose* to define that way) are out to get you personally. I can't believe everyone is this upset about this.

If the Nazis had succeeded, I would never have been born, because my grandfather and his entire race would have been exterminated. Is that personal enough for you?

I'm not upset about this. I don't recall anyone in the thread saying they were upset. I just hate Nazis, that's all, and I think this guy's a Nazi. Do you have a problem with that?

Geddonight wrote:4a) It's okay to voice your opinions about not liking the schema presented. It's okay not to play said people. However, lobbying the manager of your FLGS to kick said people out is NOT okay. The manager should make that choice on his/her own.

They would be. I would just enlighten them in terms of funds I provide them, that would be walking out the door, and that I would use my own glorious right of free speech to broadcast widely why I left.

Guys and gals, our universe is FAR worse than anything the combined forces of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mau Tse Tung, etc. could come up with. The things the primarchs did on their crusades would make each of these despots sit up and take notes. We're dealing with horrible concepts here (I mean, I play Slaaneshi-worshiping marines who take pleasure in arguably the most heinous of acts--rape). The fact that some people artistically bring to light these despicable aspects of our "fluff" through nazi/neo-nazi/socialist/Imperial Japan/etc. imagery isn't wrong at all.

We're not playing My Little Pony Collectible Miniatures Game... We're playing in a game where the "good guys" are just as bad as the "bad guys."

And its all fantasy. None of it was real. The Nazis/Imperial Japan/Communists were/are very real. Thats the difference.

Polonius wrote:Sorry for skipping many of the posts, but I want to address one common question: what is it about Nazi Germany (as opposed to non-nazi germans, even in WW2; or similarly horrific regimes like Mongols, Imperial Japan, Stalinist USSR or the Khmer Rouge) that so offends and bothers people?

I have, IMHO, a theory as to why Nazis, more then any other iconography, are forbidden. Other villians in world history are "others," either culturally, racially, theologically, etc. While the Japanese committed war crimes, their culture was so alien to ours that it didn't shock us as badly. Even the USSR was utterly different from Western Europe in many ways, and there was a strong ability of the West to say "we're nothing like that, they are clearly wrong."

The horror to many people of Nazism is that Germany was not mysterious and strange. It was a modern, industrial, sort of democratic christian nation. They had rule of law, elections, a free press. The people of the majority didn't suffer under their rule, in fact standard of living rose every year in germany until halfway through the war. What's terrifying about them is how easily the same could happen to the UK, to the US, to the EU. Look around: it's not hard to find governments speaking of fear, commentators casting blame at minorities or otherwise suspect classes.

If I built a White scars army, nobody for a second would assume I want to gather my ponies and my wives and pillage central asia. Nobody thinks valhallan players want to create a tyrrany of the people. However, the beliefs of National Socialism: fervent nationalism, fear of the outsider, industrial strenth, purity of thought: these are strands of behaviour that we see, and fear, and are constantly, as a culture, warring against.

I apologize if this comes off as presumptious or arrogant, but i think that many of the people that are offended by Nazi symbolism in 40k are afraid of that: the legitimate reality of ideals returning. For those who don't see why anybody would be offended, I hope this illustrates a little why it's such a strong taboo in our culture.

That was a VERY well written post. Kudos to you for that.
I also happen to agree with everything in it.

What I don't see, however, is how that fear or taboo should keep him from using certain symbols.

@Stelek... I can't see the first 2 of your images. I'll have to check 'em out at home tonight or this weekend. <book marked>
I knew the image on that tank (I can see that pic) looked familiar... I still don't have a problem, though, with him recreating an image from the poster, so long as he doesn't specifically or obviously make Nazi claims for his army (IMO, it's not specific or obvious).
Even then, I don't see that it's a HUGE deal... I mean, they exist to get shot and blown up. Who among us thinks it's a BAD thing to shoot and blow up Nazis? ( )


Eric

Let me say a few more things. I'm going to try my best not to rehash things I said in my first post on this thread.


While I think it is usually distasteful at best for people to directly transplant historical regimes into a sci-fi game (i.e. Nazi Imperial Guard or Space Marines), and I think people shouldn't do it, I absolutely believe that someone should be allowed to do it if they want to. You can paint as many swastikas as you like on you marines if you want to. I just think it's a pretty wack thing to do (to put it in the most civil terms I can), and you shouldn't be surprised if someone is offended or refuses to play you.

That said, I also don't think painting a 40k army with some of this iconography instantly marks someone as a racist or a Nazi. It probably makes them a bit of a buffoon, but there's a big difference between someone who doesn't have any tact and someone who is a Neo-Nazi

On that note, I'm willing to give GMMStudios the benefit of the doubt. I think he's probably a nice guy who is a great painter, but happened to paint an army that could easily offend a lot of people.

Also - something very important to note that I just discovered. The poster GMMStudio in this thread is NOT the same as the poster GMMStudios (notice the "s") who painted the awesome but controversial German-themed armored company. GMMStudio seems to be posing as GMMStudios, claiming he painted the armored company and spouting things about the "Fatherland" no doubt to rile people up.

I understand why some people are offended by that army (and as I said it bothers me a bit myself) but what GMMStudio (the poser) is doing is not cool.

And Stelek, just so you know Battlefront does paint swastikas on vehicles and planes in instances where it would be used historically, they do not replace them with the iron cross. It's just that the iron cross was much more common on vehicles. You usually only see the swastika (at least big enough to see at 15mm) on airplanes, air recognition flags, and the Afrika Korps insignia. I just wanted to clear that up.

The arguement of "Nazis is evils cuz they did it to others and Stalinz is okays cuz he didz it to his ownz" is the most pathetic attempt ever. Austrian Jews are more important than Ukrainians? Please.

I think you missed my point, though admittedly I may not have been particularly clear. I was only saying that in one case, the army was directly involved externally from the country, while in the other it was internal (though it still involved the army). The reason this matters is because one is an event that threatened everyone actively (as opposed to passively/cold war). Because of this, it's a bit more of a bogeyman - one was out to get everyone, one was just ruining their own house.

This is not to comment on which is worse - there's no way to compare them, they're both as bad as it gets. I only meant to explain why the military imagery of nazi germany is more of a sore point for people than that of Stalinist Russia, in general. This isn't always the case, there are definitely people in America and europe wouldn't be happy at all with say, hammer and sickle imagery. But one was actively trying to conquer everyone, and the other was not. There is a distinction there, because while Stalin himself and his regime are associated with atrocity, the specific imagery of the soviet war machine may not be. For the Nazis, everything was appropriated.

Heck, maybe I'm completely wrong even about that, who knows. But thanks for throwing the z's in there and calling the argument you barely understood pathetic, gave me a good laugh. I love the internet.

Stormtrooper X wrote:Stelek, this is the post that I was disaproving of. It's a bogus claim that because of the different people massacered it's not the same "scope".

It has nothing to do with the number dead.

It has nothing to do with the nationality dead.

It has everything to do with the machinery setup to kill.

That's what makes the scope entirely different.

Either you grasp what I'm saying or you don't. Death by plan is worse than death by random act.

======================================

Stalin killed his millions slowly, over decades. Pol Pot committed a genocide but in comparison to Stalin? They aren't the same. Stalin killed tens of millions, pol pot didn't.

I guess I'll have to agree to disagree on some of this. The OPs question, if I can even remember it at this point without scrolling back, is neo Nazi or not, which I presume refered to the artist. I don't know if he's a neo nazi, just someone with strong nationalist sensibilities, or just wanted a powerful image to make people take notice ( he succeeded at that). I frankly don't care if he's a neo nazi, he's a damn good artist.

I would say he's a good artist even if I *knew* he was a neo Nazi. Sorry, his purported political views don't change my feelings on his art.

Stelek wrote:

Stormtrooper X wrote:Stelek, this is the post that I was disaproving of. It's a bogus claim that because of the different people massacered it's not the same "scope".

It has nothing to do with the number dead.

It has nothing to do with the nationality dead.

It has everything to do with the machinery setup to kill.

That's what makes the scope entirely different.

Either you grasp what I'm saying or you don't. Death by plan is worse than death by random act.

======================================

Stalin killed his millions slowly, over decades. Pol Pot committed a genocide but in comparison to Stalin? They aren't the same. Stalin killed tens of millions, pol pot didn't.

If I were the one being killed, I definitely appreciate your realization of the *very important difference* between being killed slowly by privation and being killed instantly by a bullet through the head or gas. When contemplating being murdered that is something that I really concentrate on, because apparently it makes all the difference.

Yes, the poster who dropped the s is a false flag. I have a sneaking suspicion that said false flag is a poster on this board and I can conjecture guesses on who, though I wont. You should be ashamed of yourselves. You certainly aren't helping your argument.

As for the posters that Stelek posted and how close they are to those on the tanks - I'm not surprised really, the guy said in his original picture post how much he loved old propaganda posters and wanted to put that imagery in his army.

lambadomy wrote:As for the posters that Stelek posted and how close they are to those on the tanks - I'm not surprised really, the guy said in his original picture post how much he loved old propaganda posters and wanted to put that imagery in his army.

I think German, Soviet, and American ( all the combatants) propaganda posters are interesting, both artistically and historically. I think someone doing a modern interpretation of them is doing something that is artistically valid and interesting. Does that make me a nazi?

Hordini wrote:On that note, I'm willing to give GMMStudios the benefit of the doubt. I think he's probably a nice guy who is a great painter, but happened to paint an army that could easily offend a lot of people.

Also - something very important to note that I just discovered. The poster GMMStudio in this thread is NOT the same as the poster GMMStudios

@Hordini
This is my perception on the matter and I'm pleased that someone else is able to recognize that there is another person on the other side of the monitor.
I also think you pointing out that he did not post the "nazi/fatherland" comments above is also in lieu with what strengthened these misconceptions and hopefully people will recognize this.




It's interesting but some people will see the top one as art and appreciate the medium used to communicate the artists message
while others will see it as offensive and worth banning

Pariah Press wrote:

I'm not upset about this. I don't recall anyone in the thread saying they were upset. I just hate Nazis, that's all, and I think this guy's a Nazi. Do you have a problem with that?

No offense meant, but I sort of do. I understand your antipathy toward Nazis. That does not imply the artist is a Nazi, that is non sequitur

MagickalMemories wrote:

That was a VERY well written post. Kudos to you for that.
I also happen to agree with everything in it.

What I don't see, however, is how that fear or taboo should keep him from using certain symbols.

Eric

I'm a big fan of free speech and free expression, with the ACLU card to prove it. I wouldn't advocate trying to ban or limit expression in the public fora, simply because history has shown that in the marketplace of ideas, bad ideas inevitably are discarded. My post was an attempt, feeble as it may be, to simply show why people are offended. I am of the opinion that very, very few people that create 40k armies with Nazi motifs are nazis, neo nazis, or even right wing nationalists. It's very likely, however, that they mostly associate with people who know they're not Nazis, and so the creation of such an army would never be that unusual. If a good friend, that you'd known for life, had a copy of Mein Kampf, you'd proably assume it was out of morbid curiosity, not out of complicity. When such an army, however, leaves the private sphere and enters the personal sphere, it's no longer "Jim's army that has a Nazi Motif." It's a Nazi army, and without a strong notice otherwise, some people are going to assume that the army is advocating the ideals it represents.

You can see this in the comments. Many people had a visceral, emphatic reaction. "I'd never play against it. I'd ban it from the store." None of what I've described is wrong, but there is an almost immediate reaction to the offense: "it's history, you shouldn't be offended, etc." My post was an attempt to explain, if crudely, why there is offense.

I think one aspect of "nazi" armies that get's glossed over is not their historical veracity, but the almost complete disregard for history they exhibit. Virtually no German Army units fought under Swastikas, IIRC only the SS wore a swastika armband, and by far the main look of german soldiers in the field was of German field grey, not Black/Red/White. The 40k armies don't look like armies, they look like Nazi Parades, which were political, not military, events. Since the army represents a political statement, the army, perhaps against the will of the creator, is making a political statement.

This thread is being re-opened and frankly after reading the whole thing I'm not exactly sure why anyone even posted a user alert about it in the first place. All of the discussion in this thread has been fairly polite and well thought out and the topic of historical iconography in miniature gaming is most certainly a valid discussion to have if it can be done calmly.

It is important for everyone to note that previously in another thread a user intentionally created a profile for the specific intent of confusing others and inciting hostility. All of that user's posts have been deleted, that account and IP have been banned from this site. Please do not confuse the trolling from this dummy account with the original user, GMMStudios.


Anytime you find a someone's army in poor taste in your opinion it behooves you to let them know exactly why as they will obviously encounter exactly the same reactions in the real-world when they use their army.

But as with everything we try to promote in this forum, make your objections known with politeness and civility.


I may join in this conversation later with my own personal opinion on the topic (and JFrazell, I'll let you know right up front I have a Vahallan army with some commie symbols in it), but for now. . .discuss away!

The use of totalitarian iconography in Science Fiction war-games, in particular Nazi German imagery (or iconography purposefully similar) is troubling to me. Here's why:

Preliminaries:
1. I am only discussing the use of Nazi iconography in games where the Nazis are not an in-game faction (as in Warhammer 40,000). The use of Nazi iconography on Nazi forces in historical (or alternative-historical) games is not particularly objectionable as long as the goal of the use of such iconography is historical (or alternative-historical) accuracy. It is, for example, an act of historical inaccuracy to do as Hearts of Iron does and use World War I Imperial German imagery to represent World War II Nazi Germany (although Paradox Games operate within European legal systems where such displays are often illegal, a troubling situation in itself).
2. I am not interested in hair splitting who was or was not a Nazi in the Wehrmacht or in any other organ of the German State between 1933 and 1945. One of the principle features of totalitarianisms (and in particular Nazism) is the conflation of the totalitarian party and the state itself. To have fought for the German state in World War II was to have fought for the Nazi party and thus for the spread (or defense) of that Party's ideology. This is not a blanket indictment of officers and men who did not commit war crimes or crimes against humanity: to follow (non-criminal) orders is after all a soldier's duty.

Semiotics:
When someone uses an image as an icon or symbol he is making a statement about the object that bears that icon and the symbolic similarity of that object to the generally accepted meaning of the symbol (in the case of historical symbols, other bearers of that symbol). This is, after all, why we use symbols: to allow us to convey meaning to others in images so we need not use words. When someone uses an Iron Cross on a tank they are making a semiotic association between that tank and all previous uses and users of the Iron Cross. It is true that the German military before and since the Nazis used and still use the Iron Cross. It is equally true that the Nazi military remains by far the most famous and notorious users of that icon. Barring an explicit statement to the contrary it is reasonable to assume that the user of an Iron Cross symbol intends to evoke the meanings of the best known user of that symbol.

Artistic Freedom and Personal Responsibility:
There is no doubt that the use of whatever symbols one desires falls well within ones rights as an artist and as a person. Likewise it is within the rights of the individual gamer to refuse to play or associate with other players who choose to use those symbols. I have made such a decision and I urge my fellow gamers to do likewise.

Practical Considerations:
The use of Nazi or Nazi-reminiscent symbols serve to alienate our hobby from the general public and may (much like a Genestealer Cult serves as a beacon to the Hive Fleet) attract those whose support we should neither seek nor accept.

The Nazi State and the Imperium of Man:
Off the exact topic, some say that the Imperium is a state that through word and deed resembles the Nazi state. This is, I believe, a mistake. Structurally, as others have noted, the Imperium is most closely modeled after the Roman Empire (which was also aped by both Hitler and Mussolini). More metaphysically, the Warhammer 40,000 universe is very different from our own, a universe where psychic abilities and daemons are both very real and the practice of one often leads to the next. In such a world where thinking the wrong thoughts or being of the wrong faith invites the destruction of countless billions and trillions, the acts of genocide and xenocide perpetrated by the Imperium are at worst unpleasant necessities. In the real world "evil" is the name we give to the machinations of the wicked and powerful; such a conception of evil bears no resemblance to the evils that are very real in the Warhammer 40,000 universe.

i'm surprised that there has been so much negative reaction to this guard army...it's a game, and these are toys...doesn't seem like he should be treated as if this is some kind of racist hate crime...

i'm also suprised that the artist chose to put so much effort into something that looks totally out of place in 40k...a well painted army that evokes the fluff has much more impact as a work of art to me...these tanks are nicely painted, but real world propoganda posters and flags just take ya out of the fun of the 40k universe...

i don't find the communist russian slant in the red stars of at-43, or the same idea behind khador in warmachine, to be offensive...that is the imagery that the designers intended in the fluff for the universes, and it fits...
i don't find the minis painted by players of the germans in f.o.w. to be offensive...
hell, i don't even find this guard army offensive...i think the painter could have spent his hard work in tryin' to bring a piece of the 40k universe to life, and really made something cool...as it is, the end result just falls flat for me...i would have felt the same way if he had used american flags and propoganda too, and hopefully he would have been givin' the same treatment for that as he has recieved for his nazi imagery...

this is where i get a little political...i love the idea of america(a country where a man can make anything of himself with hard work, and be free to live with his beliefs in peace), but i don't think that any american can really be proud of our history inside our own borders...i know that a lot of people will slag me off for this comment, but it's how i feel...we as a people are guilty of plenty of wicked deeds...the treatment of natives, slaves, mexicans, japanese, and now muslims(in that order) is something that we choose not to talk about much when we are slaggin' off the wickedness of other countries...we are no less guilty than any of the others that we hate...people who live in glass houses, and all that...

i've lived all over the world, and i find the same wickedness, and small-mindedness, everywhere i go...in the history of all the cultures that i have studied and encountered, there are the same skeletons in the closet, just on various scales...one tribe hates the next tribe, one country hates the next country, one empire hates the rival empire...same gak, different place...

i've met a lot of people who survived the holocaust when i lived in miami and europe, i've met people who fought in the resistance in europe, and people who fought in the war on both sides...after so many years, they all seem to have the same live and let live attitude...they're all just glad to still be alive...we should live in love, instead of hate...that's the only way to break the cycle...too bad it doesn't seem possible...oppression is a constant all over the world, even here...and sometimes a peaceful man has to stand up and fight against it, but a german flag on a tank shouldn't stop us from havin' fun with our toys...

cheers
jah

While there can certainly be a valid discussion about when a line a is crossed between historical representation (fine in my book) and offensive iconography (not ok in my book), the complete denial that the latter is possible is nonsense.
My next IG army will be painted like soldiers from the confederate south (historical). My conscripts will be klansmen, my vehicles will have nooses hanging from them, and I'll add details reminiscent of current white power movements. If anyone says anything, I'll just label them as a PC spanker.
I'm not equating GMM's army with the one above , although I agree it's questionable. I'm merely pointing out that some iconography, even on toy models, is and should be universally reviled.

jfrazell wrote:The moment you pull out a mini with a Swastika or Red Star is the moment I go have a nice discussion with the store manager to help insure you'll never play in that store again.

Frankly the Kreig cross he has painted all over everything reminds me of some Klan badges I've seen. I am not impressed.

As an artist i think they are well done. Would i do something like this......probably not.

As to the quote above i am amazed at your self appointed arogance and over developed sense of self worth. If that army offends you then that is your right, but who do you think you are that you can go to the shop owner and demand he not be allowed to play in that store again? what gives you that right ?

i read your response to someone asking the same question i did. and your answer of you do it my way or i take my money and go home. Bye.. dont let the door hit you on the way out i say.

My god your absolute arrogance offends me, that you think you have the right because you spend your money to tell anyone who to let in their store. You want that right then get off your high horse and spend your time and your own money and open a store for yourself

It will probably be very cold in hades before that happens i think

HF wrote:I blame games for the whole modern idealisation of nazi culture among todays youth. The problem is most of us don't have any interaction with people effected by them so they start to become the "cool elite trained underdogs" rather than what they really are, monstrous.

Not to mention, Nazi armys are cliched as hell. For all these people that claim "its just historic" you sure don't see alot of soviet or american ww2 themed armies in 40k

This is a quote from way back in the thread, but I think it is important, because while not presented this way, it essentially becomes a question asking why certain iconography is more compelling than other iconography.

First off I don't necessarily agree. GW has produced IG and other units that borrow iconography and appearance from several armed forces. I see miniatures that have imagery from modern US armed forces ( cadians ), British empire ( praetorians), Greco-Roman type soldiers ( lots of the space marine stuff, particularly some of the older models). GW's look is also inspired by fictional sources such as the Rambo movies ( catachans), The Dirty Dozen ( Last chancers), and Aliens ( I'll give you three guesses here). Other wargames do the same thing. GW fantasy uses Holy Roman Empire and English Civil War imagery for empire and Mesoamerican imagery for Lizardmen. The game Warzone used various imagery including WWI Americans and WWII British RAF stuff.

One reason that I personally wouldnt look for American WWII uniforms and imagery for use in a fantasy wargame is that, frankly, I dont find it that visually compelling. On the other hand, the iconography of the totalitarian states is intentionally designed to be visually compelling. Lets face it, the iron cross is cool. GW has no problem using double headed eagles ( Both the Romans and Germans used it). Come on, go ahead and admit it, the swastika absolutely will grab your attention and provoke a response, this thread is proof of it. Sure, some of the response is a result of post WWII attitudes, but even before that it was a powerful symbol. The Russians of course, had their giant paitnings of their leaders.

Somewhat incidentally, but where I know several people where I live who have an almost obsessive interest in wolves. This is something the Nazis used, for what it is worth.

It always has interested me how, as a society ( at least in the US), we have made a seemingly subconscious choice as to what totalitarian imagery is ok, which is grey area, and which is verboten. The iron cross doesn't seem to really bother people. You still see fasces is on many US government seals and buildings. A swastika, on the other hand, will generally draw all sorts of attention to the one who displays it. The swastika has even, unfortunately I believe, become something that Americans have generalized to always mean "Nazi" when it most certainly doesn't. It honestly is a symbol that was apparently used by pre-christian Germans. It is used today by Indians. Prior to WWII, it showed up on good luck charms, just like horseshoes. There was apparently a swastika in the nosecone of the Spirit of St. Louis, according to Wikipedia. In fact, the swastika is one of the most commonly used symbols in the world. It is really unfair that we associate it with Nazism.

More specific for me, it isn't the iconography that I find repulsive... it's that people are judging this person, labeling and then libeling based soley upon a few pictures of questionable veracity on the subject of promoting the nazi ideal.

Do any of you know the person in real life? If so, then they are the ONLY people truly qualified to make a judgement upon then. Everyone else is making judgements from a position of ignorance about the person.

Just exactly who is the person practicing bigotry at that point?

Warpaint Studio wrote:
As an artist i think they are well done. Would i do something like this......probably not.

As to the quote above i am amazed at your self appointed arogance and over developed sense of self worth. If that army offends you then that is your right, but who do you think you are that you can go to the shop owner and demand he not be allowed to play in that store again? what gives you that right ?

i read your response to someone asking the same question i did. and your answer of you do it my way or i take my money and go home. Bye.. dont let the door hit you on the way out i say.

My god your absolute arrogance offends me, that you think you have the right because you spend your money to tell anyone who to let in their store. You want that right then get off your high horse and spend your time and your own money and open a store for yourself

It will probably be very cold in hades before that happens i think

That is unfair to say. While the artist has every right to show his work, Jfrazell does have a right to vote at the store with his wallet. I wouldn't do that myself, and I think it is unfair, but ultimately he can do that, and I don't think that makes him a bad person, per se.

grotblaster wrote:While there can certainly be a valid discussion about when a line a is crossed between historical representation (fine in my book) and offensive iconography (not ok in my book), the complete denial that the latter is possible is nonsense.
My next IG army will be painted like soldiers from the confederate south (historical). My conscripts will be klansmen, my vehicles will have nooses hanging from them, and I'll add details reminiscent of current white power movements. If anyone says anything, I'll just label them as a PC spanker.
I'm not equating GMM's army with the one above , although I agree it's questionable. I'm merely pointing out that some iconography, even on toy models, is and should be universally reviled.

See, and I could take offense to that. As a Southron, I find your association between white supremacy and the Confederate States of America blatantly unfair and irrelevant. That is the problem with all these value judgements. Contrary to how comfortable it makes you feel, these feelings are not universal, and the people who disagree with you are not necessarily stupid, misguided, or racist.

jah-joshua wrote:i'm surprised that there has been so much negative reaction to this guard army...it's a game, and these are toys...

Maybe but it is our game and our toys. It's not even the toys or game, it is the symbolism and iconography. If you do not think symbols or icons can be meaningful then I'm going to guess you aren't nearly as worldly or mature as you try to state you are.

jah-joshua wrote:we as a species are guilty of plenty of wicked deeds...

Fixed that for you. Your search for some sort of moral equivalence is weakened by, well trying to make it, but by first lashing out against a specific target for your frustrations (the USA) then turning around and saying it is done everywhere by everyone with a sort of hum-drum acceptance that it is the way it is. When I read your post I couldn't help but think that it was a mish-mash of bumper sticker slogans and left wing propaganda. While there is some nice sentiment there, it comes off as a college freshman that has taken an introductory Eastern Philosophy class and now thinks they understand the world.

jah-joshua wrote:
i've lived all over the world

And yet you've still never met Mr. Shift Key? To get in the requisite amount of ellipses I guess I should put it here...

Grignard wrote:See, and I could take offense to that. As a Southron, I find your association between white supremacy and the Confederate States of America blatantly unfair and irrelevant. That is the problem with all these value judgements. Contrary to how comfortable it makes you feel, these feelings are not universal, and the people who disagree with you are not necessarily stupid, misguided, or racist.

It should only be implied, never directly pointed out.

It hurts Southron's feelings. I mean, Southerners never had any problems with other races at all, as long as they were in there shacks and didn't try to, you know, learn to read. They certainly never formed any vigilante groups that targeted non-whites.

Ahtman wrote:

Grignard wrote:See, and I could take offense to that. As a Southron, I find your association between white supremacy and the Confederate States of America blatantly unfair and irrelevant. That is the problem with all these value judgements. Contrary to how comfortable it makes you feel, these feelings are not universal, and the people who disagree with you are not necessarily stupid, misguided, or racist.

It should only be implied, never directly pointed out.

It hurts Southron's feelings. I mean, Southerners never had any problems with other races at all, as long as they were in there shacks and didn't try to, you know, learn to read. They certainly never formed any vigilante groups that targeted non-whites.

Of course, I should be ashamed of myself for not just accepting the fact that we're all dumb redneck racists.

Lay off this one

The Nazis are clearly a horrendous and morally disgusting party and place in history.

But if i were to make a modern U.S. army themed force would that offend someone. Because after all they are involved in a illegal war that has destroyed a functioning economic state and directly or indirectly caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Also crops of heroin in the Afghanistan are at record highs not to metion how the islamic extremists in somilia were intialy funded by the US when they had to kick out the "reds."

The british empire redcoat themed army didn't get much heat either or was the Empire Ok?

Careful there glowgos, if this thread has proven anything it's that history doesn't matter. Apparently mass graves created by poisoning water supplies, testing chemical weapons, or just plain running everyone down in the streets and shooting them is COMPLETELY different than sticking someone in an oven. The Nazis were the worst thing ever and anyone who paints an army in their scheme (other than a historical army because that's somehow ok) is just uneducated, racist trash. I'm glad everything has been explained to me. You should be too.

Going by Bush and war approval ratings, I'm thinking a good half the U.S. population would probably see no problem with having an evil-themed modern U.S. army. I know I wouldn't.

STX - Go ahead and make your Stalin red army and I'll be sure to post on that thread too. Be sure to make lots of freehand propaganda and other things with a well-done paintjob because otherwise I'll probably just feel pity like I do with the other dude who can barely apply a coat of paint without streaking.

IMO that first army was pushing it a bit with the logo. I might have said somthing had I seen it when it first came out. However the other one was little overboard. The seem to have modified the swastika just so they could defend themselves in case this comes up. If they played that list in Germany they would risk being arrested as its illegal to display that garbage in public anywhere in Germany. I don't know what the fascination is with some people and nazi armies. Will there ever be an American WW2 themed army? I know cadian Kinda look like it but not completely. I just do not like the theme of the other army. ALthough the paintjob is awesome.

Grignard wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Grignard wrote:See, and I could take offense to that. As a Southron, I find your association between white supremacy and the Confederate States of America blatantly unfair and irrelevant. That is the problem with all these value judgements. Contrary to how comfortable it makes you feel, these feelings are not universal, and the people who disagree with you are not necessarily stupid, misguided, or racist.

It should only be implied, never directly pointed out.

It hurts Southron's feelings. I mean, Southerners never had any problems with other races at all, as long as they were in there shacks and didn't try to, you know, learn to read. They certainly never formed any vigilante groups that targeted non-whites.

Of course, I should be ashamed of myself for not just accepting the fact that we're all dumb redneck racists.

Lay off this one

I don't think it was ever said that all Southerners are rednecks racists. That would be about as stupid as trying to act like there is no connection between an ideology of white supremacy and the Confederate States.

I was going to write a longer post on the issue but I would be repeating things other people already wrote down. Suffice to say that I find appalling the POV from some posters riding the high horses of PC and indignation. This is a game for God´s sake if I saw a guy deploying a Nazi look alike IG army I would think that he needs a gf not that he is a neo nazi.

A second point I´d like to make is that in most cases people don´t bother to research and tend to support their positions with half-truths or convinently forget little tibits or history that would invalidate their arguments and we can point posters on both sides of this thread as guilty of this. Censoring or banning ideas because they are distasteful or nonPC is the 1st stepto a totalitarian society.

M.

I used to be one of those people who are enthralled by the Nazi symbol and the regime it represents. I was immature and I guess had some authority issues during those times. It’s quite interesting that the Nazi regime is actually about total control and I was rebelling against control. In those days I actually purchased replica Nazi uniform and other paraphernalia. My personal experience may not reflect others here. Now, I have changed and learned through many years of experience that the Nazi represented a regime that is terrible in nature. Unless one is recreating historical games such as FOW or some sort of historical reenactment these symbols are better left at home. I still have those items but you would not see me wear it today.

Some of you say you really like the uniform and it’s not about the symbol. Well, I present to you that the Chinese up till the late 1930’s were using German uniforms and equipment for their army. The only exception was that they had leggings instead of jackboots. They used the same M1935 helmets, field caps, and Gewehr 98 as the German army. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Revolutionary_Army http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-trained_divisions_of_the_National_Revolutionary_Army I wonder who would want to model their WH40K army based on the terribly ineffective army of China during that time?

On another note, Hitler used to refer to the Japanese are the Yellow Aryans. I wonder what the neo-nazi of today consider the Japanese?

Miguelsan wrote:A second point I´d like to make is that in most cases people don´t bother to research and tend to support their positions with half-truths or convinently forget little tibits or history that would invalidate their arguments and we can point posters on both sides of this thread as guilty of this. Censoring or banning ideas because they are distasteful or nonPC is the 1st stepto a totalitarian society.

M.

For example: someone from a place where school history textbooks are censored to downplay the countries involvement and acts in WWII lecturing about censorship. See: Ienaga Saburo

Ahtman wrote:

Miguelsan wrote:A second point I´d like to make is that in most cases people don´t bother to research and tend to support their positions with half-truths or convinently forget little tibits or history that would invalidate their arguments and we can point posters on both sides of this thread as guilty of this. Censoring or banning ideas because they are distasteful or nonPC is the 1st stepto a totalitarian society.

M.

For example: someone from a place where school history textbooks are censored to downplay the countries involvement and acts in WWII lecturing about censorship. See: Ienaga Saburo

Is that kind of a personal attack Ahtman? If so aim better I might be living in Japan but I´m far from being japanese. See you just proved my point

M.

Censoring or banning ideas because they are distasteful or nonPC is the 1st stepto a totalitarian society.

I seem to have missed where anyone was trying to say that these armies should be censored or banned.

grotblaster wrote:While there can certainly be a valid discussion about when a line a is crossed between historical representation (fine in my book) and offensive iconography (not ok in my book), the complete denial that the latter is possible is nonsense.
My next IG army will be painted like soldiers from the confederate south (historical). My conscripts will be klansmen, my vehicles will have nooses hanging from them, and I'll add details reminiscent of current white power movements. If anyone says anything, I'll just label them as a PC spanker.
I'm not equating GMM's army with the one above , although I agree it's questionable. I'm merely pointing out that some iconography, even on toy models, is and should be universally reviled.

It's certainly a sticky issue, because whilst I can take any number of Nazi themed miniatures, and actually appreciate them, I think I'd be slightly offended by that army. I wouldn't shun or attack the owner / painter, but I'd be a bit uneasy. Strange eh? I can't really explain it other than to admit I like the aesthetic of WW2 era Germans, Nazis, and Russians too.

btw GW used to produce awesome "Klan" miniatures, complete with hoods, masks, nooses etc, in fact they're some of my all time favourites.

stonefox wrote:

Censoring or banning ideas because they are distasteful or nonPC is the 1st stepto a totalitarian society.

I seem to have missed where anyone was trying to say that these armies should be censored or banned.

I would tend to think all the talk of "If someone brought this into my gamestore I would tell them to leave" is the censorship/ban he is getting at.

Does anybody remember the Television series "V"?

I do not think 'Nazi ' imagery is good in any/way/shape acceptable, personally.

Why not try something like this? Or is it offensive?

*sigh*- it is a very subjective discussion I suppose.

stonefox wrote: I seem to have missed where anyone was trying to say that these armies should be censored or banned.

Really? It was in the third post of this thread.

jfrazell wrote:The moment you pull out a mini with a Swastika or Red Star is the moment I go have a nice discussion with the store manager to help insure you'll never play in that store again.

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

btw GW used to produce awesome "Klan" miniatures, complete with hoods, masks, nooses etc, in fact they're some of my all time favourites.

Ya I'm thinking of making a whole lot of those guys complete with nooses as an IG army. The "other" folk can be conscripts. It'll be pretty awesome.

This guy will be in my command squad. "You tell 'em, son!"

glowgos wrote:The Nazis are clearly a horrendous and morally disgusting party and place in history.

But if i were to make a modern U.S. army themed force would that offend someone. Because after all they are involved in a illegal war that has destroyed a functioning economic state and directly or indirectly caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Also crops of heroin in the Afghanistan are at record highs not to metion how the islamic extremists in somilia were intialy funded by the US when they had to kick out the "reds."

The british empire redcoat themed army didn't get much heat either or was the Empire Ok?

The British Empire had plenty of faults however it was less not OK than other empires, and managed to do a lot of good amongst the harm.

For example: established successful democracies in Canada, Australia and India, surpressed evil practices such as slavery, suttee and thuggee, and managed to get out of most of the remaining colonies after WW2 without allowing them to descend into civil war or dictatorships. Obviously there are failures and abuses to be set against that record.

(I'm English so call me biaised.)

Grignard wrote:

See, and I could take offense to that. As a Southron, I find your association between white supremacy and the Confederate States of America blatantly unfair and irrelevant. That is the problem with all these value judgements. Contrary to how comfortable it makes you feel, these feelings are not universal, and the people who disagree with you are not necessarily stupid, misguided, or racist.

Well here is a good example of the way people perceive things differently. Here in Europe, rightly or wrongly, confederate imagery is associated with racism. When I first went to America, I was surprised by people displaying that kind of thing quite casually and in a non racist way. We take symbolism in quite different ways, but certain symbols can evoke very strong responses in certain people.

The Swastika has, in the west, become intrically linked with what happened in Europe in the thirties and forties and for that reason it is utterly taboo. It is just something that people do not like to see and do not like put in front of them. It doesn't have that meaning in the East, though it is important to point out that the Swastikas used over there do look quite different from the German Swastikas.

In the context of the army that has sparked this controversy. Well if someone walked into a store with an imperial guard army painted up to look like a Nazi army complete with Swastikas, I would presume they were either absolutely nuts or else doing it for a sick joke. Either way I would probably find it pretty funny. I wouldn't recommend someone try it in a place like Germany though.

This particular army isn't such an army though, it is an army evoking a whole variety of images that have strong symbolic meaning to Neo-Nazis. All that is really missing is the 14/88s. It is pretty impossible given the combination that the painter does not know what all the imagery means. That does not mean he is a Neo-Nazi himself but he certainly went for the theme. I don't find it particularly offensive, this kind of thing is done in the music I listen to all the time, but lets not be in any doubt that taking that army out in a lot of circumstances is going to povoke quite a reaction.

glowgos wrote:The Nazis are clearly a horrendous and morally disgusting party and place in history.

But if i were to make a modern U.S. army themed force would that offend someone. Because after all they are involved in a illegal war that has destroyed a functioning economic state and directly or indirectly caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Also crops of heroin in the Afghanistan are at record highs not to metion how the islamic extremists in somilia were intialy funded by the US when they had to kick out the "reds."

The british empire redcoat themed army didn't get much heat either or was the Empire Ok?

You forget, the US nor the British Empire massacred 6 million Jews, and millions of Russians and others as part of their agenda.

Ahtman wrote:

Miguelsan wrote:A second point I´d like to make is that in most cases people don´t bother to research and tend to support their positions with half-truths or convinently forget little tibits or history that would invalidate their arguments and we can point posters on both sides of this thread as guilty of this. Censoring or banning ideas because they are distasteful or nonPC is the 1st stepto a totalitarian society.

M.

For example: someone from a place where school history textbooks are censored to downplay the countries involvement and acts in WWII lecturing about censorship. See: Ienaga Saburo

That is all you can do Ahtman. You provide nothing constructive to the debate. You were just chomping at the bit ( Thats a dumb southern redneck expression, as you can point out if you wish) to launch a personal attack against him because of his nationality. You would have used the supposed( from the point of view of China) Japanese textbook censoring argument long before. You waited until your moment to try to ruin someone's day. Oh wait, edit: Where you just assumed his nationality was.

Allowing ideas that are not acceptable in an enlightened society is a huge part of what caused Germany to fall into darkness for so very long.

So of course people have learned to speak up when someone repeats the same rhetoric.

Being a miniatures game doesn't mean you get a free pass.

Demogorgon wrote:

Well here is a good example of the way people perceive things differently. Here in Europe, rightly or wrongly, confederate imagery is associated with racism. When I first went to America, I was surprised by people displaying that kind of thing quite casually and in a non racist way. We take symbolism in quite different ways, but certain symbols can evoke very strong responses in certain people.

The Swastika has, in the west, become intrically linked with what happened in Europe in the thirties and forties and for that reason it is utterly taboo. It is just something that people do not like to see and do not like put in front of them. It doesn't have that meaning in the East, though it is important to point out that the Swastikas used over there do look quite different from the German Swastikas.

In the context of the army that has sparked this controversy. Well if someone walked into a store with an imperial guard army painted up to look like a Nazi army complete with Swastikas, I would presume they were either absolutely nuts or else doing it for a sick joke. Either way I would probably find it pretty funny. I wouldn't recommend someone try it in a place like Germany though.

This particular army isn't such an army though, it is an army evoking a whole variety of images that have strong symbolic meaning to Neo-Nazis. All that is really missing is the 14/88s. It is pretty impossible given the combination that the painter does not know what all the imagery means. That does not mean he is a Neo-Nazi himself but he certainly went for the theme. I don't find it particularly offensive, this kind of thing is done in the music I listen to all the time, but lets not be in any doubt that taking that army out in a lot of circumstances is going to povoke quite a reaction.

That is what I'm getting at. Ultimately all these arguments are subjective and meaningless.

Stelek wrote:Allowing ideas that are not acceptable in an enlightened society is a huge part of what caused Germany to fall into darkness for so very long.

So of course people have learned to speak up when someone repeats the same rhetoric.

Being a miniatures game doesn't mean you get a free pass.

Well, that is the way the cookie crumbles. There are plenty of people whom I actively dislike because of their views, but I have to put up with them

No, no they’re not subjective and meaningless.

While government censorship and suppression of free speech are not acceptable, private individuals (like Yak) have every right to restrict expression on/using their property. And sometimes such community sanctions are entirely appropriate responses to disgusting/dangerous/harmful expressions.

I’ve very proud of the Dakka community because of this thread. It’s been a great discussion, and I hope educational for most of us about other people’s thoughts, opinions, and perspectives on these issues. IMO the best response to "bad speech" (whether it be hateful, stupid, or whatever) is "good speech" (counter arguments, criticism, etc).

For people who did not recognize the combination of neo-nazi (not just historical nazi) imagery and iconography that the army in question used, maybe this is a bit of an eye-opener. I think it’s a gorgeous army, but (as others have already eloquently explained) the combination of images makes me distinctly uncomfortable and suspicious of the owner’s beliefs.

Yeah, that's kinda what "free society"means.

As for an "enlightened society", as there's never actually been one, I don't know what you mean by the reference.

I would assume an enlightened society is one where all ideas were tried, and the best ones floated to the top and won the war of ideas based on their merit, not via censorship.

Oh and by censorship, I mean, not free to express ones views, no matter how oderous a person may find it on a personal level. Holding beliefs you don't agree with is not a crime.

Sadly, Ki, it's what happens when enough of a vocal minority holds those beliefs that scares the normally silent majority.

People will act now, because years ago no one did and where that road took civilization nobody wants to go again.

Enlightened...there are many enlightened societies in the world today. Sadly, most are western in nature but I'm not sure who to blame for that. All of them are imperfect, of course. I'd rather have a shattered window to let the light in than no light at all.

People will act now? We act by not allowing people into high office who hold tghose beliefs, however, we don't stop them from holding those beliefs. That's an awfully fine line to tread, I know, but getting caught up in "the thought police" (you know, the "other" name for being PC) is a bad idea too.

None of us (that have posted thus far) say that they actually know the person in question. To paint them as as a nazi/neo-nazi racist bigot based upon a few pictures within his 7 posts thus far is using to broad a stroke. And it's wrong.

Mannahnin wrote:No, no they’re not subjective and meaningless.

While government censorship and suppression of free speech are not acceptable, private individuals (like Yak) have every right to restrict expression on/using their property. And sometimes such community sanctions are entirely appropriate responses to disgusting/dangerous/harmful expressions.

I’ve very proud of the Dakka community because of this thread. It’s been a great discussion, and I hope educational for most of us about other people’s thoughts, opinions, and perspectives on these issues. IMO the best response to "bad speech" (whether it be hateful, stupid, or whatever) is "good speech" (counter arguments, criticism, etc).

For people who did not recognize the combination of neo-nazi (not just historical nazi) imagery and iconography that the army in question used, maybe this is a bit of an eye-opener. I think it’s a gorgeous army, but (as others have already eloquently explained) the combination of images makes me distinctly uncomfortable and suspicious of the owner’s beliefs.

While I agree with you in ideals I really don't think it is true. I really don't think there is a true objective way to evaluate any sort of morality. All you can do is hold yourself to an internal code of ethics. But yes, the community does ultimately have a right to not accept that, in spite of what I may think. I think it would be a shame to censor such artwork from this site though, even if you have to include a disclaimer or something.

I have no right to be suspicious of his beliefs, as I have no proof of anything other than his interest in German and mythological imagery. Furthermore, regardless, I dont think I can argue that any belief of mine is better than his.

Stelek wrote: I'd rather have a shattered window to let the light in than no light at all.

That sounds somewhat like an ends justify the means statement. And while I can see that point of view, thats the kind of person I am. I just want you to be aware of the implications of ends justify means.

If you put pictures of the SS up, you're going to draw a response.

Just the way it is.

It isn't appropriate for this forum, nor for 40k.

Grignard, that's a sad misapprehension of what Stelek just posted.

He was saying that the fact that we can’t achieve perfection doesn’t invalidate the attempt to get as close as we can. No society is truly enlightened (intact window perfectly open), but it’s certainly better to get as close as we can, even if it’s as close as a shattered window is to that perfect window. It’s still letting light in to banish (as much as we can of) the darkness.

Stelek wrote:If you put pictures of the SS up, you're going to draw a response.

Just the way it is.

It isn't appropriate for this forum, nor for 40k.

But these weren't pictures of the SS, they were miniatures painted using a broad range of German and mythological themes.

Since I posted what they were, I stand by what I said.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters2.htm

It's the poster all the way at the bottom.

Is it clearer now? Do you "get it"?

Stelek wrote:Since I posted what they were, I stand by what I said.

Alright, then I just disagree with you on this one.

So you've closed your eyes and started shouting na na na.

Good luck in life.

Stelek wrote:So you've closed your eyes and started shouting na na na.

Good luck in life.

No, Ive politely agreed to disagree. Since we don't see eye to eye on the fundamental root of the issue, it is impossible for us to come to any conclusion about the artists intent. In other words, it provoked different feelings in each of us. You might say our perception of reality is different. I'm willing to listen to anything you say, but I'm just not going to agree with you on this one.

Stelek wrote:Since I posted what they were, I stand by what I said.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters2.htm

It's the poster all the way at the bottom.

Is it clearer now? Do you "get it"?

I get it. It is possible the artist used a WWII propaganda poster for inspiration. Do we have to paint nice things? Where we disagree is the implications of this.

I have no right to be suspicious of his beliefs, as I have no proof of anything other than his interest in German and mythological imagery. Furthermore, regardless, I dont think I can argue that any belief of mine is better than his.

The way you’re bending over backwards to defend someone’s right to be offensive or express himself in a way that hints at a hateful ideology is kind of amazing to me, and I’m a free speech nut.

Of COURSE you have every right to be suspicious of someone who does something suspicious. You don’t have to have proof to suspect someone. You should certainly have proof before fully condemning someone, but that’s a different matter. Do a little research on neo-nazism and the white supremacy movement (though I recommend NOT doing it while on a work computer). Note the high degree of interest both in nazi Germany and in Norse mythology and imagery.

Furthermore, regardless, I dont think I can argue that any belief of mine is better than his.

The moral relativism here is astounding to me, and I’m also a liberal progressive. You have every right to say that your ideology is morally superior to a racist, fascist ideology, which is what those images are representing.

You know, its beside the point we're arguing about, but I'm going to be fair enough to mention that while I love the artists work and that I simply think it is the best cloth work I have ever seen, and that I do not think this guy is a Nazi, I did not want to pull it up at work. Just food for thought there.

Ya guys. Agree to disagree was pretty much the root of this. Originally I did attempt to call out gmm and I would've stopped replying if he just said "ya man these could be taken to look like nazis" but then he refused and denied all nazi leanings. We PMed each other and I told him that it was his free speech right to do it, as well as my free speech right to interpret what he said in a public forum as well as call him out, but he told me not to bother his thread. You can see his last PM in my sig as well. I probably wouldn't play this guy if I saw his army though.

I probably wouldn't have spent so much effort typing stuff up if he just said "Yeah, I can see how they look like nazis but I didn't mean them to be that way" rather than "No, they're just a bunch of ideas I liked put together but I swear I'm not a nazi. One of my friends is a Jew and he's fine with it." It's the adamant refusal that got me suspicious.

No Jew would be "fine" with SS Propoganda posters or their 'interpretations'.

It is also worth mentioning that people have been quick to deride is artistic choices but only Yakface has brought up the fact that he was false flagged and treated so. That put me squarely in his camp regardless of whether he's a Satanist, Nazi, racist, or even a Commie .

Stelek wrote:No Jew would be "fine" with SS Propoganda posters or their 'interpretations'.

They have a right not to be fine, thats ok. Plenty of people have expressed that here

Grignard wrote:

grotblaster wrote:While there can certainly be a valid discussion about when a line a is crossed between historical representation (fine in my book) and offensive iconography (not ok in my book), the complete denial that the latter is possible is nonsense.
My next IG army will be painted like soldiers from the confederate south (historical). My conscripts will be klansmen, my vehicles will have nooses hanging from them, and I'll add details reminiscent of current white power movements. If anyone says anything, I'll just label them as a PC spanker.
I'm not equating GMM's army with the one above , although I agree it's questionable. I'm merely pointing out that some iconography, even on toy models, is and should be universally reviled.

See, and I could take offense to that. As a Southron, I find your association between white supremacy and the Confederate States of America blatantly unfair and irrelevant. That is the problem with all these value judgements. Contrary to how comfortable it makes you feel, these feelings are not universal, and the people who disagree with you are not necessarily stupid, misguided, or racist.

You miss my point. If you had an IG army painted as confederate soldiers complete with the confederate flag throughout, I would find it of questionable taste. I'd ask you about it, and if you tell me it's about southern pride and has nothing to do with race I'd probably be ok with it. If it were in a historical game, I wouldn't bat an eye.

If you took that same army and added klansmen, nooses, and white power symbols, it moves from a historical representation to an offensive, racially charged statement. You'd have every right to make that army, but as soon as it comes into a store, the owner and everyone there has a right to react.

grotblaster wrote:

Grignard wrote:

grotblaster wrote:While there can certainly be a valid discussion about when a line a is crossed between historical representation (fine in my book) and offensive iconography (not ok in my book), the complete denial that the latter is possible is nonsense.
My next IG army will be painted like soldiers from the confederate south (historical). My conscripts will be klansmen, my vehicles will have nooses hanging from them, and I'll add details reminiscent of current white power movements. If anyone says anything, I'll just label them as a PC spanker.
I'm not equating GMM's army with the one above , although I agree it's questionable. I'm merely pointing out that some iconography, even on toy models, is and should be universally reviled.

See, and I could take offense to that. As a Southron, I find your association between white supremacy and the Confederate States of America blatantly unfair and irrelevant. That is the problem with all these value judgements. Contrary to how comfortable it makes you feel, these feelings are not universal, and the people who disagree with you are not necessarily stupid, misguided, or racist.

You miss my point. If you had an IG army painted as confederate soldiers complete with the confederate flag throughout, I would find it of questionable taste. I'd ask you about it, and if you tell me it's about southern pride and has nothing to do with race I'd probably be ok with it. If it were in a historical game, I wouldn't bat an eye.

If you took that same army and added klansmen, nooses, and white power symbols, it moves from a historical representation to an offensive, racially charged statement. You'd have every right to make that army, but as soon as it comes into a store, the owner and everyone there has a right to react.

Oh yes, the last statement would probably be in bad taste. It was my misunderstanding to equate that.

You know, I did some hunting online, and I found a gem of a ww2 poster.



Oh so painfully close to the 2 you find so objectionable.

He flat out said that he finds old propaganda posters interesting. He put a 2 german, and 1 soviet on his models. Would you guys be pitching a fit if THIS were on there? If so, then why? If not, then why not?

Huh? As repeatedly noted, it’s because of what the symbol represents. Stelek pointed out that the particular poster the artist was referencing was a recruiting poster for the SS.

Being interested in old propaganda posters could be perfectly innocent. They’re visually striking and can make great artistic inspiration and reference. Red and black are great colors, and catch the eye. The Battle of Britain image of Germany bombing London looks awesome on the dozers. Thor and Norse mythology are perfectly valid sources of inspiration. Any one or two of these things might be coincidence and perfectly fine. But it’s the COMBINATION of elements which closely resembles the combination of elements used and enjoyed by modern neo-nazis and white supremacists. This is what makes people suspicious and uncomfortable.

What does it mean that I'd defend to the death this guy's right to paint whatever he wants, but I wouldn't be seen in public with him?

That you're a true believer in personal rights. He has the right to paint, say, and believe anything he wants, and by extension, offend anyone he wants. You don't happen to agree with it, and chose to excersize your right to not be around him.

I have to say that this whole discussion has been completely unfair to the original poster. You guys are freaking out and condemning a person for his choice of influences for painting. Yes he may have made some bad choices, but who are we to go on a crusade against this? I bet not one of you are completely free from any type of racism, sexism, or bigotry. All of us should look inward and correct our own personal problems before we go out and condemn others for something trivial like painting. I myself probably have things i need to fix (i'd like to think i don't, but i know i am not perfect) and so do all of you.

C'mon guys, he used an iron cross, which has long German traditions from long before the Nazis ever rose to power. Red is a great color and thus no problem. Thor is a RED HAIRED god, not blond! so he never really fit the Nazi theme anyway, just the modern depiction has forgotten this (his Thor looks like the one from the justice league). The other parts of the iconography look perfectly like something that the imperium would use so fits the fluff perfectly.

The only problems i could see anyone gripe about are the one SS looking poster on the basilisk and the one headed eagle on the flags. but the imperium tends to change iconography from time to time based on who is in and out of favor (different high lords or terra or chapters of marines) so thats not really the problem. The fact that this kid used Nazi influences is not a problem. The problem would be if he was a Nazi, but as all of you have said no one knows this guys, so leave him alone. All you crusaders need to step down a second and stop trying to rid the world of all its problems. It's not the purpose of the forum.

Anyone who can do conversions that good, paint that well and research reference material so competently isn't just a kid.

The stuff he picked does make a strong theme, consistent with the 40K background, and is iconographic. The Nazis were good at design and make a strong historical reference point.

That said, I don't see a WH40K army being a good recruiting tool for neo-Nazism so I am inclined to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and assume he just picked an unpopular theme for the army.

Maybe someone will do a paedophile army so people can start complaining about that instead.

It would certainly be a way to bring back Squats. Just take off their beards and then put a Commisar in the unit wearing a baseball cap and reading a newspaper.

As the OP who kicked this whole thread off, I want to thank everyone for their reasoned replies. I'm very glad to see that there is a certain amount of sensitivity towards glorifying RL / historical fascist / totalitarian states. I'm also glad to see the maturity of the responders and the moderators.

In terms of evilness, I would disagree that the Nazis were the worst ever, more that they ended up on the wrong side of history. IMO, that singular honor belongs to the Soviets for the sheer scope, duration, and pervasiveness of their brutality. That said, Japan is a very close second, particularly as they continue to censor and deny the truth of the atrocities committed. As for the US / UK, despite the fashion of the liberals, if anything, we're more like the pre-fascist Weimar Republic, what with our fascination with and acquiescence to pervasive government surveillance and data collection. Besides, if we want to discuss oppression and brutality, Israel should be high on anyone's list. This is purely my opinion, and I will not choose to debate it in this thread - if someone wants to discuss the relative evils of the world, let them start their own thread.

Personally, I don't much like *either* the Kriegmarines or the GMM AC. To me, GMM's Armoured Company is especially offensive precisely because it is so well-executed - it is like something that Josef Goebbels (Minister of Propoganda) himself might have commissioned. As they currently sit, the Kriegemarines are far more amateurish, but very nearly as offensive.

I agree that a historicals modeler or game has more freedom to utilize Nazi imagery, if done from a proper historicals perspective. So the Late War use of full Swastika aerial recognition flags would be gratuitous, as would the substitution of Swastikas for crosses.

I think that the Imperium is a dystopian, fascist, totalitarian state that draws upon the worst of human history as its inspiration. Soviet-style Kommissars, thought-monitoring Inquisititors, and such really cannot be interpreted as otherwise.

For me, the usage of any black insignia on white circle centered in a red field is a visual code for a Nazi flag. Whether it is the triskele, Eisenkruze, or Swastika proper makes relatively little diffrence - especially if tou have to get close to distinguish the difference. It is no accident that pseudo-Nazis (e.g. "V", ) and Neo-Nazis use this as their baseline insignia. Even translated over to crossed hammers on a black field ("the Wall" movie, Pink Floyd), the stark red-white-black insigina produces a similar, visceral reaction - and has subsequently been adopted by the Hammerskin Nation. As Goebbels recognized and showed, imagery is a powerful tool that is not to be taken lightly, and treading too close is a problem.

wow, that's a lot of thread here guys.

personally, I have a similar attachment to this topic as magickalmemorie does; my grandmother suffered under the bombing of our hometown, my great-grandfather was killed in a camp because of his beliefs and political work.
Personally, I'm rather sensitive when it comes to that topic because of my family history. To me, "real" Neo-Nazis (of which we haven't really got any here in Freiburg, thank goodness), and with real, I mean dumb people who support the ideas of the old regime, are pretty much, and I rarely use that word, Scum. And incredibly stupid.

Now, on topic of said armies:
1.)GMMStudios' armored company is a great piece of work. the paintjob's awesome and the conversions are great, I think we can all agree to that. Now, the obvious problems with this army are the paintings....Until I read this thread, I actually didn't know that Thor is used as a symbol for the neo-nazi movement. I only look at those pictures of Thor and actually think of comics because, call me arogant if you like, I mostly know Thor from comics. I am well aware that he is mythological figure, but I never imagined him to be a symbol for neo-nazis. although I have heard of the wolf-thing before.
So what bothers me with this army aren't the Thor pictures, nor the other paintings on the dozorblades. What bothers me are the banners. I usually don't have as much of a problem with iron crosses as I have with swastikas, but those propaganda posterpaintings are....disturbing. I don't think I could get over it and actually play against that army, which is a bit of a shame, since the rest is really awesome. But the "Bruderschaft des Blutes" stuff and all that, would make me kinda....nervous, while playing against it.

2.) the Kriegmarines,
the cross-symbol ( which is how called exactly? I don't know) whis is painted all over those models actually doesn't really bother me that much, since I don't asociate it with the nazi movement as much as I would with a swastika. actually, I don't think that symbol is much more political incorrect on a 40k model than the double-headed eagle. Altough, the reason why this wouldn't bother that much while playing against it, is that is isn't quite as well executed as the armored company.


P.S.: just to get my shot at nerdity today: @Bastirous, Thor is a meber of marvels Avengers, not DCs Justice League.

I think what alot of people are missing that BAD GUYS with COOL UNIFIORMS can be copied without any moral implecations by those doing it.

How many Star Wars Geeks own Stormtrooper, Darth Vader, or Mandalorian Battle Armor ? The Ninja Craze in the 80s ? Anyone who wants to be Samurai ?

I can understand if YOU have a hard on against Nazis because of their history of Genocide, etc... but to the younger generation they are those guys in Wolfenstein, or those dudes Captain America kicks the snot out of. They simply don't have that boogeyman or taboo status with everyone.

I don't see anyone throwing a Tizzy over Redemptionist models in Necromunda. You either play them or you don't. I have one firend that catergorically refuses to play them becuase he thinks they look like Klansmen, but never once has he harrassed anyone who did.

Just a note on the television series V: It's very much an
allegory against fascism and the power of propaganda
and such. Good series.

While I was looking at the propaganda pictures that were linked to earlier I found this beauty...



I wasn't thinking of man hate when I looked at it.

On an related note what does everyone think of this use of Nazi imagery?



Or Marilyn Manson's use of Fascist imagery, such as the BFP's logo?


Marilyn Manson album?


British Fascist Party?

Just out of interest, look what pops up when you Google 'Thor' and 'Nazi'. I realise it's a wiki but there's no wiki without fire (probably).

I can understand if YOU have a hard on against Nazis because of their history of Genocide, etc... but to the younger generation they are those guys in Wolfenstein, or those dudes Captain America kicks the snot out of. They simply don't have that boogeyman or taboo status with everyone.

very good point

My take, with examples:

1. The trouble with using Nazi iconography is that some people get upset. However anyone can get annoyed over anything, its as much the responsibility for people to be tolerant as much as it is for others to be sensitive.

- Ok, but why? A lot of this is supposedly to do with 'jewish sensibilities' though most jews I know who play dont mind fascist themed games at all, and yes its something that turns up a lot.


2. Is taking the piss out of Nazis or using their iconography a Jewish privilege? Normally no, but some people are beginning to think so. Bring in "nazi" tank models, the question is raised; 'will this offend Jewish members?' Even in these posts people asked of specific Jewish members were offended, why should they have the privilege of refusal over anyone else, or a greater say. Noone cares if it offends British or French members.

- The way we look at this is, we fought Hitler, we were the first to stand up (successfully) to him and it was a long fight, and we have no hang ups. For example old Airfix models of german tanks and aircraft were popular, sold to children, and they often had swastika transfers. Models made in some countries of WW2 aircraft omited them. As a child I made my Stukas as well as my Spitfires, with no political leanings attached, if anyuone had or still has a problem with that, its their problem, not mine.
An even better example was Allo Allo, the BBC did a sitcom based on German occupied France, it had a handful of detractors but was amazingly funny and was very well received. The show had six seasons and is still broadcast today.

You see cultural tolerence is the watchword, again those who are offended are those with the problems, and need not be pandered to.


3. The next is where do you stop. with nazis, with nazis and soviets, with soviets and taliban, with taliban and... you get the idea.

- Again, and this is more topical than nazis: I know a player with well painted Taliban theme IG Tallarn army, complete with burning US flag for his company HQ, suicide bombers as demo charges (taking advantage of the rule where you can remove the guardsman), and a fat priest with a beard and 'power hook' (reminiscent of a notroious Islamc preacher who regualrly appears in the British press). Some immature people might have had problems, but we are yet to meet any, most understand what satire is and have no problems. More to the point our gaming group includes real servicemen who have been to the Sandbox and met the real thing themselves, not a single one has a negative word to say about this army, quite to opposite in fact.


4. The whole 40K Imperium theme is fascism.

- Frankly its an attraction to the hobby, it has never beeen twee or dumbed down. The human forces are evil, get used to it. Now I can see why GW stopped having human bomb units for Imperial Guard, but they have never really removed the horrors from the regime. Inquisitors still torture for information or to propogante fear over religious differences as a matter of routine. The Imperium still burns entire populations for unorthodoxy. If someone was to write up Hitlers career in the 40K universe under a different name, he would just be one servant of the Emperor, and not an especially active one either.

whatever, I really like that war bonds posters. SOme of the most patriotic posters were created during WW2. Ive been trying to get my hands on some but they apparently are worth tons of money.

If I ever had a nazi like army across the table from me I would refuse to play. I would say, this "other" army in particular....... is nazi-like I dont like that. I dont know that I would refuse to play it. Cause the more people say it the more it looks like a nazi army. It is pushing it a little though. If ever I saw a blatant swastika I would more than likely have to restrain myself from swinging. I am a very mellow person, it takes a LOT for me to EVER become aggressive, however nazi's do it immediatly. Whether or not this is a nazi army is grey. What I do know is that i was not overcome with anger when I first saw it. To me it was AFTER I read all the comments when I was like "oh, yeah; it is kinda nazish."

adamsouza wrote:I think what alot of people are missing that BAD GUYS with COOL UNIFIORMS can be copied without any moral implecations by those doing it.

They can also be copied specifically as an ethical statement which does have moral implications. The whole thread is about whether this one guy was doing that.

adamsouza wrote:

I can understand if YOU have a hard on against Nazis because of their history of Genocide, etc... but to the younger generation they are those guys in Wolfenstein, or those dudes Captain America kicks the snot out of. They simply don't have that boogeyman or taboo status with everyone.

Youth is no excuse. When I was a kid I read Commando action comics and learned that Nazis were scum because they did stuff like shooting prisoners. As a teen I was taught about the Holocaust. Youngsters have to learn about that kind of stuff as part of their ethical development.

Anyway, the guy with the army is not a kid.

Stormtrooper X wrote:

stonefox wrote:

Censoring or banning ideas because they are distasteful or nonPC is the 1st stepto a totalitarian society.

I seem to have missed where anyone was trying to say that these armies should be censored or banned.

I would tend to think all the talk of "If someone brought this into my gamestore I would tell them to leave" is the censorship/ban he is getting at.

Everyone else has let this slide by. I'm not going to:

Censorship is when the government comes to you and says "don't say/think/print that" and uses the coercive power of the state to enforce their order. What we're talking about is personal (and market) choice. You make a choice to paint your army as a Neo-Nazi fantasy and I would make the choice to not play against you and the choice to encourage my follow gamers to do the same. Similarly, if (as a Nazi/Neo-Nazi or just an admirer of said iconography, macht nichts) the person responsible for this army doesn't want to play against Jews or other untermenchen that's fine too. He's at perfect liberty to make that choice. Where, precisely, is the government coercion?

Store owners have a right to ask people to leave their property and no one has a right to play wargames or to force someone to play against them if they don't want to. Get a clue and get off your cross.

smart_alex wrote:whatever, I really like that war bonds posters. SOme of the most patriotic posters were created during WW2. Ive been trying to get my hands on some but they apparently are worth tons of money.

If I ever had a nazi like army across the table from me I would refuse to play. I would say, this "other" army in particular....... is nazi-like I dont like that. I dont know that I would refuse to play it. Cause the more people say it the more it looks like a nazi army. It is pushing it a little though. If ever I saw a blatant swastika I would more than likely have to restrain myself from swinging. I am a very mellow person, it takes a LOT for me to EVER become aggressive, however nazi's do it immediatly. Whether or not this is a nazi army is grey. What I do know is that i was not overcome with anger when I first saw it. To me it was AFTER I read all the comments when I was like "oh, yeah; it is kinda nazish."

The more people say it the more it looks like a Nazi army. That is what is giving me a feeling of wrongness about this thread, much the same as you all feel a feeling of wrongness looking at his army. It is like people who claim there are satanic messages or other messages that scare parents on metal albums if you play them backward. I went to a fairly fundamentalist school, which required us to watch videos where they would play the tracks backward several times, each time saying and writing the supposed line on the screen. The first time you might say, I didnt hear anything at all, but if it is repeated enough and someone is saying, " I hear this", well, by the third time around or so, even if you don't believe in the concept, you might very well hear it. Hey, Queen *is* saying to start smoking marijuana. Yah, wow, that does sound like that Judas Priest album says to try suicide.

It also bothers me that people make a knee jerk reaction that Nazi's are the scum of the earth. Wait, don't deride me as a revisionist or whatever you come up with before you hear me out. It doesnt bother me that people point out reasons why the government of Germany during that time period was bad, genocidal, whatever. It bothers me that people say " If I saw a blatant swastika, I'd have to restrain myself from swinging. That has nothing to do with Nazis actually, that is a conditioned response. The visceral reaction some people have is trained. The community forces you through psychological manipulation and ostracism to automatically respond with disgust and hate when you hear Nazi. I would bet hard currency that some of you who were offended by the artist were nearly breaking your fingers to type in a post about how much you hated it and how offended you were, because to be seen *not* to respond that way might mean you're a Nazi ( collaborator with *them*, in other words).

In actuality, history suggests then most of the people posting here would fall right in line with a totalitarian regime. I'm sorry, I know i'm going to catch a lot of ire for this, but I believe it true.

Grignard wrote:

smart_alex wrote:What I do know is that i was not overcome with anger when I first saw it. To me it was AFTER I read all the comments when I was like "oh, yeah; it is kinda nazish."

The more people say it the more it looks like a Nazi army.

In actuality, history suggests then most of the people posting here would fall right in line with a totalitarian regime. I'm sorry, I know i'm going to catch a lot of ire for this, but I believe it true.

That is because, at its core, it *is* a Nazi army. It just doesn't push Swastikas in your face.

The reason people become more upset about the army than at first glance is because other people are doing the homework to clarify the details, so that the subliminal and obscure Nazi references become overt and clearly-identified. A good example is the recruiting poster, which looked like a cool free-hand banner at first glance, but is later properly revealed to be an actual SS recruiting poster. I'll bet that less than 1% of the people who initially saw it, recognized it as a SS recruiting poster. But kudos to the guy who recognized it and was able to educate the rest as to what it really was.

I agree that most people would fall in line with a totalitarian regime. That is because the power of the State is so much greater than what any lone individual can muster, and this can be easily demonstrated by looking at the TSA. IMO, we're approaching a point at which the State is able to remove the last remaining vestiges of individual liberty and privacy. But civil and individual rights ought to be a topic for another thread.

But a game store is a very different matter. The power of a guy who's bringing a Nazi army isn't greater than yours - in fact, it's probably less. So you *can* talk to the owner and have him barred from playing such an army in the store. The armies played in-store are a reflection on the owner, and as a private owner, he has the right to refuse service that might offend other customers.

Well I am happy to know that if anyone came to any of my local stores, or club and demanded someone was thrown out because of their army theme they would be suitably ignored. The only exception would be regarding armies with as pornographic element (beyond witch elves) when children are around. Even so they player would be acceptable, just not the army.

Remember guys we dont have a right to be wildly intolerent, some people just think we do.

By and large most players can tell the difference between an ordinary player with an army with dubious political references and someone with extremist views.

Anyone accused someonewith the Taliban army of Islamic extremism, or any of the IG armies with wehrmacht schemes of being 'nazis' without firm third party evidence only brings into question their own credibility ansd maturity.

What some of those posting here would make of real historical armies I have no idea. Germans are a very popular choice for Flames of War, yes kids those models depict real nazis (well the SS ones do), not make believe ones.
Would it be foam at the mouth time?

I'm still not seeing a verbatim copy of that poster. The guy depicted in the guys art has a german style infantry helmet.
For the record I viewed the link.

Orlanth wrote:Well I am happy to know that if anyone came to any of my local stores, or club and demanded someone was thrown out because of their army theme they would be suitably ignored. The only exception would be regarding armies with as pornographic element (beyond witch elves) when children are around. Even so they player would be acceptable, just not the army.

Remember guys we dont have a right to be wildly intolerent, some people just think we do.

By and large most players can tell the difference between an ordinary player with an army with dubious political references and someone with extremist views.

And I'm more than happy to find another gaming store. Especially after the "tolerant" one becomes the local skinhead hangout.

Call me crazy, but I don't see a gamestore becoming a skinhead haven.

Grignard wrote:I'm still not seeing a verbatim copy of that poster. The guy depicted in the guys art has a german style infantry helmet.
For the record I viewed the link.

SS recruiting poster (thanks for the link, Stelek):


GMM version


GMM only removed the Waffen SS badge from the helmet. But other than that, it is a verbatim copy.

I just wonder what people would do if I put together a Tallarn army with loads of Arabic slogans like 'Down with the Great Satan' and other such stuff on it, or named my characters after Taliban officials.

Or if I did an army that had tanks painted white with burning Crusifix iconography. Would they be any more of less offensive/correct than someone who puts a german/axis cross (not necessarily a swashtika (SP??)) on a tank.


I found the big Guard tank army with all the German iconography offensive. I found the Marine army with the crosses offensive as well (half because of the actual paint job, half because of the imagry).

I've seen WWII German themed Guard armies before, and a lot of them removed the Nazi iconography, kept the grey and the style of infantry helmets, but they made it 40K.


And I think that's what it comes down to. Someone can do a WWII German, or a Arabic army, or a religious fanatic army, or whatever - but if they remove the direct symbols and make sure it's a 40K army, as opposed to a German WWII army using 40K models, then that's where you have the difference.

BYE

My IG army's colour is Black, White and Red, simply because its a powerful Mix of colours, does that mean i read mine kampf(sp?) and attend hate rallies? No, it just means i use references from an historical army (which all IG armys are based on in one way or another). i dont use the red and white flag with a modified version of the swastikka(sp?) because i know that offends people. I do however use the iron cross because that predates the nazi regieme, again does make me a white surpemist?

Do you cover your tanks in real-life propaganda posters changed slightly to be Imperial?

What you're saying Lankington isn't an argument, and you've avoiding the issue at hand.

Moreover, you've done what I said in my post above:

You've taken a 40K army and painted it in WWII German colours. This is the opposite to taking a WWII German army, and using 40K models to represent it. That's what I and others take offence to, not someone who uses a 40K army with colours, it's when they use 40K miniatures to 'mask' the fact that it's a Nazi army.

BYE

what you say is true, and now that i realise i appologise, to be honest i thought Pro- Imperial posters on the sides of tanks were a good idea, but when i realised what they were based on i was disgusted. I think it is a shame because its a beutifuly painted army, just the blatent hate behind it, ruins it entirely.

I don't really see what the problem is. 40k is a fascist's wet dream, so living out that fantasy using NAZI iconography seems pretty appropriate.

Ahtman wrote:

jah-joshua wrote:i'm surprised that there has been so much negative reaction to this guard army...it's a game, and these are toys...

Maybe but it is our game and our toys. It's not even the toys or game, it is the symbolism and iconography. If you do not think symbols or icons can be meaningful then I'm going to guess you aren't nearly as worldly or mature as you try to state you are.

jah-joshua wrote:we as a species are guilty of plenty of wicked deeds...

Fixed that for you. Your search for some sort of moral equivalence is weakened by, well trying to make it, but by first lashing out against a specific target for your frustrations (the USA) then turning around and saying it is done everywhere by everyone with a sort of hum-drum acceptance that it is the way it is. When I read your post I couldn't help but think that it was a mish-mash of bumper sticker slogans and left wing propaganda. While there is some nice sentiment there, it comes off as a college freshman that has taken an introductory Eastern Philosophy class and now thinks they understand the world.

jah-joshua wrote:
i've lived all over the world

And yet you've still never met Mr. Shift Key? To get in the requisite amount of ellipses I guess I should put it here...

first, i understand the power of symbols and icons...the lion of judah and the star of david have great meanin' to me, as do images of haile sellasie I...
i would not own anything with nazi symbols, but i don't find them personally offensive...all the icons that were used in the nazi party have roots in other historical cultures(i.e. the roman, norse, and prussian cultures)...the party used them for their powerful symbolism, and now these icons will be forever attached to the memory of one of the worst holocausts in world history...i get it...
the swaztika(facin' the opposite direction) is all over asia, but i don't see anyone complainin' about buddha statues with swaztikas bein' racist or offensive...it's a symbol of good luck in asia...

second, there is no search for moral equivalence in my post...it's simply a statement of fact that hatred is a global sickness...people are killin' each other in every country, it just so happens that some cultures in history have taken it to a whole new level...it's not right, but it is real...the only way to change it is to be a good person on the individual level...

the usa is not a target for my frustrations, as i don't really have any frustrations...i do what i want, and go where i want...as a rastaman, i don't get involved in politricks(yes, that's what i call politics)...i do my own thing...
my point is that we should not be so quick to pass judgement, as our hands are not clean...in our brief history, we have done some very horrible things...i'm not attackin' america here, i'm just statin' the facts...we as a nation are guilty of some of the same crimes that we revile in other nations...why is that so hard for us to accept...i accept it, and am determined to live with as much love, and as little hate as possible...

as for the whole statement about my post bein' a "mish-mash of bumper sticker slogans and left-wing propoganda", and comin' off as "a college freshman that has taken an introductory eastern philosophy class and now thinks they understand the world", all i can say is that i have studied zen since i was 12 years old(that's 22 years of eastern influence)...i never did go to college though...the world has been my university...16 years of travel definitely opens the eyes...i'm not left wing, i'm very a-political...zen and rastafari are movements which concentrate more on the actions of the individual, not the group...
i don't think i understand the world...i'm constantly dumbfounded...just when ya think you've seen it all, something else crazy comes along...humanity never ceases to amaze me...

lastly, i type the way i type...it's fast and simple...who cares if i use the shift key or not...i type in the same voice that i speak in...like popeye said,"i am what i am, and that's all that i am"...ya don't have to like it, but ya don't have to attack me for it, and treat me like i'm stupid and uneducated...

cheers
jah

The SS symbols were removed. Not a verbatim copy. In other words, he took anything offensive or even relating to the real world off of it. Now, if he were really a Nazi ( Thats the original question in the thread), wouldn't it be very tempting to leave those little symbols there?

Sure, but I don't think anyone's arguing that he's an idiot as well.

Orlanth wrote:Remember guys we dont have a right to be wildly intolerent, some people just think we do.

Wait, we don't have a right to be wildly intolerant? Since when?

By and large most players can tell the difference between an ordinary player with an army with dubious political references and someone with extremist views.

Actually, judging by how this thread has gone, I'd say it's about 50/50.

What some of those posting here would make of real historical armies I have no idea. Germans are a very popular choice for Flames of War, yes kids those models depict real nazis (well the SS ones do), not make believe ones.
Would it be foam at the mouth time?

Well, it's pretty obvious from reading nearly all of the posts here, that it would not be "foam at the mouth time." WWII reenactors don't bother hardly anybody. Neo-nazis bother a lot of people.

If you can't tell that this guy's a neo-Nazi from looking at his army, you just don't know enough about neo-Nazis, I guess. I have to admit that the Kriegmarine one went right over my head; my knowledge of neo-Nazis must be middlin'.

I just thought of something......He *does* have a painting studio. Perhaps he wants to *sell* an army to a neo-nazi. He could charge more than his standard rate, because where else are you going to get nazi 40k stuff with Thor on it.

be he addmitted he was didn't he? anyway he could of made it more 'imperial' then i wouldn't have a problem with it, and i think alot more people too would be cool with it. plus that Swastikka send off is a sus dont you think???

More to the point, it's a recruitment poster. ALL recruitment posters throughout the ages are nothing but boilerplate imagery.

Refer to the image I found and the composition is almost EXACTLY the same. Uncle Sam holding a flag, innumerable bombers flying overhead, tanks rumbling down in front of him, and some slogan plastered on it.

All of it conveys an image of power. "Army of one." So powerful that YOU are an army. "Full speed ahead." It's a statement used referencing ships, put all power of the engines or propulsion section to use. "Be all that you can be." Be the most powerful version of yourself, fulfilling your full potential.

ALL STANDARD BOILERPLATE.

Orders of maginitude different from a poster saying something like "Kill those inferior, dirty Joos."

C'mon people. Use some perspective.

Orlanth wrote:
2. []Bring in "nazi" tank models, the question is raised; 'will this offend Jewish members?' Even in these posts people asked of specific Jewish members were offended, why should they have the privilege of refusal over anyone else, or a greater say. Noone cares if it offends British or French members.[]
You see cultural tolerence is the watchword, again those who are offended are those with the problems, and need not be pandered to.

That´s the "moral relativism" problem we have in today´s world as everything boils down to "I have been moraly offended by your ideas remove them or else" better be PC all day long or you´ll risk the WRATH of the PC crowd. I have been "tongue lashed" in a class about teaching spanish to foreign students because I use the phrase "Girls, don´t you think he is cute" after showing a Brad Pit photo to a mixed classroom for an exercice "What if you have a gay in class? he´ll be left out" the teacher told me.

My point is that if you give them a chance everybody will have a reason to complain if you give them half a chance and in some places like the US or the EU you won´t even need that to have them screaming at your ear, so as Orlanth said cultural tolerance is the word not PC.

M.

edit: fixed my phrase.

Hold on, I'm not understanding something here: Your supervisor reprimanded you because using a picture of Brad Pitt to teach the phrase "Don't you think he is cute" might somehow leave the "gay" in the class out? I'd think it would leave out all the straight guys myself...

Nurglitch wrote:Hold on, I'm not understanding something here: Your supervisor reprimanded you because using a picture of Brad Pitt to teach the phrase "Don't you think he is cute" might somehow leave the "gay" in the class out? I'd think it would leave out all the straight guys myself...

I repeat the sentiment, but without Nurg's wit.

Otto is surprised by your intolerance.

Doctor Optimal wrote:Everyone else has let this slide by. I'm not going to:

Censorship is when the government comes to you and says "don't say/think/print that" and uses the coercive power of the state to enforce their order. What we're talking about is personal (and market) choice. You make a choice to paint your army as a Neo-Nazi fantasy and I would make the choice to not play against you and the choice to encourage my follow gamers to do the same. Similarly, if (as a Nazi/Neo-Nazi or just an admirer of said iconography, macht nichts) the person responsible for this army doesn't want to play against Jews or other untermenchen that's fine too. He's at perfect liberty to make that choice. Where, precisely, is the government coercion?

Store owners have a right to ask people to leave their property and no one has a right to play wargames or to force someone to play against them if they don't want to. Get a clue and get off your cross.

I´ll answer this with this entry from the American Heritage Dictionary

Censorship
1.The act, process, or practice of censoring.
2.The office or authority of a Roman censor.
3.Psychology Prevention of disturbing or painful thoughts or feelings from reaching consciousness except in a disguised form.

and from Dictionary.com
Banning
–verb (used with object) 1. to prohibit, forbid, or bar; interdict: to ban nuclear weapons; The dictator banned all newspapers and books that criticized his regime.

It doesn´t say that it´s only censorship if the goverment does it. In the current Free Speech vs Censorship battle going on in the US it´s against the US Constitution if the goverment (Fed, State and Local level) does it but that doesn´t mean that if you ban me from expresing my thoughs, even if you have all the right because I´m right in the middle of your house, you are not censoring me just because you are not the goverment.

M.

Yep she did. As a teacher I´m supposed to take into account all possible sensibilities. :( Imagine the mess if I have a mixed class of 2 guys from the US, a chinese, a guy from India and a palestinian learning spanish and I have to explaing why in Spain every Easter we go crazy about Christianity without using religious examples that can offend non-christians.

We live in a PC world where common sense doesn´t have a place.

M.

Miguelsan wrote:
It doesn´t say that it´s only censorship if the goverment does it. In the current Free Speech vs Censorship battle going on in the US it´s against the US Constitution if the goverment (Fed, State and Local level) does it but that doesn´t mean that if you ban me from expresing my thoughs, even if you have all the right because I´m right in the middle of your house, you are not censoring me just because you are not the goverment.

M.

Actually it just means the Federal government, even then there are exceptions. States and local governments can pass such ordinances if they want. The federal doesn't always trump States rights. In fact we fought a war about it.

I stand corrected then I can´t remember my Goverment classes that I took when I was over there eons ago.

M.

Grignard wrote:The SS symbols were removed. Not a verbatim copy. In other words, he took anything offensive or even relating to the real world off of it.

Now, if he were really a Nazi ( Thats the original question in the thread), wouldn't it be very tempting to leave those little symbols there?

No, he didn't because the picture is still a copy of a poster that is inherently offensive and all of the remaining imagery relates exactly to its real-world counterpart.

Personally, he probably *should* have left Waffen SS badge with it's the Doppel-Sig runes, along with plastering Swastikas on everything, just to keep things simple.

What he's done is the same as what every other white power / Neo-Nazi group has done - to substitute the actual Nazi symbols with their new forms while otherwise glorifying the Nazis. It's no accident that all of they men in his army are blond-haired Aryan types.

But you can go on and keep apologizing for him. I'm done responding to you.

I'm trying to keep a close eye on this thread (when I can) to make sure the discussion stays based around arguments rather than personal attacks against actual users.

Some posts have been deleted that contained blatant insults.

Anyone who continues to insult other posters in this thread will have their posts deleted and possibly face further disciplinary action.

Keep the discussion civil and on-topic people!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Grignard wrote:The SS symbols were removed. Not a verbatim copy. In other words, he took anything offensive or even relating to the real world off of it.

Now, if he were really a Nazi ( Thats the original question in the thread), wouldn't it be very tempting to leave those little symbols there?

No, he didn't because the picture is still a copy of a poster that is inherently offensive and all of the remaining imagery relates exactly to its real-world counterpart.

Personally, he probably *should* have left Waffen SS badge with it's the Doppel-Sig runes, along with plastering Swastikas on everything, just to keep things simple.

What he's done is the same as what every other white power / Neo-Nazi group has done - to substitute the actual Nazi symbols with their new forms while otherwise glorifying the Nazis. It's no accident that all of they men in his army are blond-haired Aryan types.

But you can go on and keep apologizing for him. I'm done responding to you.

Ok, I didnt mean to insult you, but it is how I feel. I think the artist made it clear that he had an interest in propaganda posters. Incorporating a theme or a picture into a work of art, even if you think that it portrays the subject matter in a positive light, is not offensive in my mind.

I'll keep apologizing for him as long as I feel it necessary. He's been false flagged and personally insulted on this board. *if* he is a neo nazi, which I really do doubt, then he has behaved in a more civilized manner than alot of the self appointed defenders of truth and freedom on this board, which you might say is kind of scary.

About the propaganda poster....I think if he had painted one of the posters about Jews, that would be an entirely different game than a poster with a soldier on it that was probably inspired by a recruitment poster.

I think that is worth mentioning

*if* he is a neo nazi, which I really do doubt, then he has behaved in a more civilized manner than alot of the self appointed defenders of truth and freedom on this board, which you might say is kind of scary.

I could show you the PMs he made with the personal attacks if you'd like (including the one in my sig), but I assume he just realized that Warseer is the place to go if you don't want a callout. Coward or wise, whatever.

KiMonarrez wrote:More to the point, it's a recruitment poster. ALL recruitment posters throughout the ages are nothing but boilerplate imagery.

If that is so, then why *that* specific poster? If the point would be just as good using a US / UK / French / Canadian recruitment poster as the basis, why not use an Allied poster?

The fact of the matter is that he *specifically* selected a Waffen SS Nazi poster to paint.

And it's not an isolated element, which might be forgivable. It's part of an army in which all of the men are blond-haired, in which the army flag is based very strongly on the Nazi flag, etc.

For grins, one might count how many ADL-recognized hate symbols are present in his army. To me, the entire thing just screams hate.

I'm sorry, I'm going to take the side of someone who gets false flagged. I hate garbage like that.

Haha John, the funny part about the symbol page you linked to was when someone in the other thread talked about a "not-as-nazi" symbol that had a big Z in the middle instead of a swastika.

HBMC's avatar is so clearly a Nazi.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

KiMonarrez wrote:More to the point, it's a recruitment poster. ALL recruitment posters throughout the ages are nothing but boilerplate imagery.

If that is so, then why *that* specific poster? If the point would be just as good using a US / UK / French / Canadian recruitment poster as the basis, why not use an Allied poster?

The fact of the matter is that he *specifically* selected a Waffen SS Nazi poster to paint.

And it's not an isolated element, which might be forgivable. It's part of an army in which all of the men are blond-haired, in which the army flag is based very strongly on the Nazi flag, etc.

For grins, one might count how many ADL-recognized hate symbols are present in his army. To me, the entire thing just screams hate.

The ADL also listed neopagan religious imagery as hate symbols, and only changed that when threatened with litigation and bad publicity.

I'm glad the ADL is watching out for us, and making sure we can identify hate symbols, ooooo better watch out, its scary. They should throw in satanic symbols so we'll be sure we can see the sites of secret satanic rituals.

Yes, the ADL is not necessarily my first choice if I want information that isn't, how do I say it....colored to pick the worst interpretation to support an opinion.

Jazz is for Losers wrote:HBMC's avatar is so clearly a Nazi.

Yep but the rule was it had to be 3 icons to count. It's like a fun puzzle you put together and it reveals a picture.

I frankly don't understand how it is that people are this upset about this veiled reference to the Nazis but I have never once heard someone complain about the Black Templars, especially since their background fulfills the same complaints that people are making regarding these two armies. Their iconography is directly taken from a group whose actions are still a source of deep offense to one or more groups (try bringing up the crusades to Muslims). The same can be said for the Praetorians.

If you don’t want to play someone that’s fine but why does it have to turn personal. This is not the first or the last German WWII army we’ll see and that’s largely because they fit so well into the theme of 40K. When you’re reading 40K novels where genetically engineered superhumans set out to conquer the galaxy in the name of the God-emperor (whose symbol happens to be a double headed eagle), cleansing the universe of all aliens and those who don’t fall in line your mind doesn’t make any connection to Nazis? I’ve seen banners similar to the ones on this guy’s tanks where instead of a cross it was the imperial eagle and no one had a problem. One guy at a GT a couple of years ago had a soviet style army with banners portraying himself as their dictator and again I never heard a peep. In fact I believe that army was features in a White Dwarf, but don't quote me on that. Personally for me the most offensive army I’ve ever seen was a Praetorian army on Warseer with Caucasian Praetorians as officers and African Catachans as rank and file soldiers, but as an American I’m particularly sensitive to things that portray Caucasians as possessing an inherent dominance over Africans. However that doesn’t mean I jump to the conclusion that the guy is some racist who believes in white supremacy.

I’m not saying that this guy’s army is in good taste, or even that I would play him especially if he was a racist but I’m sick of the hypocrisy. It’s the same reason why people who fancy themselves as revolutionaries run around with Che or Mao shirts but would decry someone wearing a Himmler shirt despite the fact that all of them have a lot of blood on their hands. It’s only offensive if the group you’re offending garners enough public recognition to make it offensive in the public conscience. I'm just saying if you want to get him kicked out of a store because you're offended by his army I hope you don't play Black Templars otherwise I might have to complain about how you're offensive army is affecting me sense of propriety.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

KiMonarrez wrote:More to the point, it's a recruitment poster. ALL recruitment posters throughout the ages are nothing but boilerplate imagery.

If that is so, then why *that* specific poster? If the point would be just as good using a US / UK / French / Canadian recruitment poster as the basis, why not use an Allied poster?

The fact of the matter is that he *specifically* selected a Waffen SS Nazi poster to paint.

And it's not an isolated element, which might be forgivable. It's part of an army in which all of the men are blond-haired, in which the army flag is based very strongly on the Nazi flag, etc.

For grins, one might count how many ADL-recognized hate symbols are present in his army. To me, the entire thing just screams hate.

I will only speak on GMM's army. The other one isn't.... Well, I just don't feel like wasting my taime on it, regardless.

I'd like to make a note here...

I recognized that poster (mostly). I knew it was a WWII German recruitment poster. I remembered the basic image... The profile of the soldier with the planes overhead and the tanks below... I didn't remember the Netherlands or SS imagery specifically... but I knew it was WWII German.
I didn't care.
I happen to LOVE that poster. Not for what it stands for, but for the artistic merits of it. The way the images fit together is incredible (for what I'm referring to, I'm removing ALL letters or letter-like images from the overall picture).
The soldiers shadowed face, with the cannons below and a horde of planes flying overhead... I just find THOSE visuals appealing (I can remove the image from the message to do this).
I have always loved that picture.
When I saw it on the tank, I thought how smart he was to use such a compelling image. I thought how well it was painted. I thought how neat it was that he happened to use an image that I happened to like so much.
I did not assume that, because he happened to use an image that had been used by Nazis, it was concrete proof that he is a neo-nazi.
Red is a beautiful color to use on your models. Had he chosen BLUE instead of red, for example, the army just wouldn't look that good. Red white & black look GREAT together. If you are going with a limited number of colors, those 3 are a great choce for the basics.
So, they're all blonde & trace back to Thor.
Fine.
I didn't know that neo-nazis used Thorian imagery, etc, as White Poser (no typo)/Aryan propaganda, etc.
It still doesn't matter to me. You don't KNOW that GMM did, wither. You assume it, based on your personal prejudices.

If we assumed that everyone who used imagery that had been associated with some horrible crime/event was horrible and sympathized with the relevant group, then all Christians would be part of the Inquisition. Christians awould be cannibal wanna-be's (eating & drinking the symbolic body & blood of Christ). All Jews would be Christ killers. All Native Americans would be scalp-taking heathen devil-men. All Muslims would be terrorists. All Chinese would be power-mongering communist killers. The Japanese would be Kamikaze pilots waiting to attack anbother Naval base. All black people ("Afro/African Americans") who wear red or blue would be gang-bangers. Any large group of people who drink Kool Aid would be trying to commit mass suicide.

I can go on...

You can use an image... you can use two images... you can use TEN images that can all be traced to hatred. It doesn't make them images of hatred.
You will always find the Devil where you look for him, if you look hard enough.

Maybe we should boycot Chaos armies.
Why?
Well, first, you have the BLACK legion. They say they're a Legion (like a group... or a gang...) and they're BLACK. Their "armor" (or clothes) have gold and silver trim (bling). Sometimes, they have other COLORS on them. Clearly, BLACK LEGION is just a hidden army that is meant to represent inner city gangs. We all know how bad those are. Especially the crips & bloods.

Hmm... Crips & Bloods.
Crips wear blue and love their bling.
Thousand Sons' main color is blue... with gold trim...
Hmm.

Wait... World Eaters use RED armor, like the Bloods... and they have "bronze" trim... which we all know is just a way of trying to make GOLD bling look like it isn't gold, so that they can wear it but try plausible deniability.

While we're at it, we should avoid Nurgle, as well.
See, Nurgle's main color is green. What's typically thought of as green? Martians... "Little Green men."
Martians are ALIENS.
Aliens?
We have a problem with ILLEGAL ALIENS in America, now.

Clearly, anyone who chooses to play Nurgle (especially if he models BARBED WIRE on his bases... or FENCING...) is clearly trying to play an army of Illegal Aliens, thereby stating that it is okay to come into our country illegally and FIGHT (since that's what the 40K game is all about) for supremacy.

Just about everything I said from, "If we assumed that everyone...," until this sentence was absurd. I agree.
I believe most of you will agree.
Many of you, and hopefully all, will get my point.

Just because I said it is... just because I could show the "proof" that it is... doesn't mean that it is.

The devil will be anywhere you look for him, if you just look hard enough.


Eric

For grins, one might count how many ADL-recognized hate symbols are present in his army. To me, the entire thing just screams hate.

That's something else... I checked out that site...
With 2 or 3 exceptions, EVERY hate symbol there was pointing at white groups.
Threre wasn't one SINGLE Islamic symbol there... and Farrakhan's Muslims are some of the most racist, prejudiced people out there.

I saw a whole lot of "Here is how bad white people are" with a couple of "Here's a token black link" (NO pun or offensive jokes meant... it happened to be the best terminology for what I was thinking) thrown in as an afterthought, so that they can argue that they're not unfairly pointing out whites.

There's a song from the Broadway show "Avenue Q" called "Everyone's a little bit racist."
I urge everyone to (legally, of course) download that song or buy the CD. It's full of truths that nobody likes to hear.
As an aside, if you buy the CD, you'll also get the song, "The Internet is for porn," and many other great tunes.


Eric

Great post MM! Great post

Everything is offensive if you look it from a I-WANT-TO-BE-OFFENDED point of view. In some cases it´s ridiculous as you just wrote.

M.

Jay of Moore wrote:I frankly don't understand how it is that people are this upset about this veiled reference to the Nazis but I have never once heard someone complain about the Black Templars, especially since their background fulfills the same complaints that people are making regarding these two armies.

I suppose it is because we still have people who lived through that time period and not great great great great great grandparents we don't know the name of or know much about. Its close to the bone and not an intellectual excersise in trying to imagine what it was like to be living in that time.

MagickalMemories wrote:

There's a song from the Broadway show "Avenue Q" called "Everyone's a little bit racist."
I urge everyone to (legally, of course) download that song or buy the CD. It's full of truths that nobody likes to hear.
As an aside, if you buy the CD, you'll also get the song, "The Internet is for porn," and many other great tunes.

Eric

I think that is a common myth that has come to prominence, but that is just me.