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Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 17:53:32


Post by: paidinfull


This has come up in another post and I wanted to get a community's standpoint on it.
I'm certain I am correct but others need to some convincing.

"The following is a simple way to understand how the webway portal is used:
When the webway portal is in position, it acts as a gate through which your reserves can enter the table. Think of the edge of the portal marker as a piece of your own table edge. Models move onto the table from the portal marker, measuring from its edge as they would if they entered the table normally. The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.
This means that, if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play.

Units may not partially enter play using the portal nor may they charge through it.
The moral of the tale is that you should defend the portal until you have used it and not simply abandon it in the middle of the enemy."

Taken from DE FAQ

The section that is up for discussion is, What happens if it is surrounded?
Can a skimmer still be used to fly over the enemy troops that are surrounding the portal?

It is my interpretation by RAW and RAI that if the portal is surrounded, regardless of TYPE, no model can exit the webway portal per what is written above.

For other parts of this discussion please click here


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 18:43:17


Post by: Wehrkind


It seems to me that since the normal rules for skimmers are that they can fly over enemy units, and the normal rules apply, it means they can fly over the surrounding units so long as they do not end within 1" of them.

Then again, do they have to be on the table before they move? It doesn't seem so, since 40k doesn't have a "deployment" phase during the turn. Rather, it seems that units coming on as reserves hit the table moving, and as such skimmers would ignore enemy units.

I might be wrong about that part though, and if reserve units are placed on the table before movement begins I would change my vote. I don't think the rules say they do though.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 18:55:54


Post by: Antonin


Like Wher notes, Raiders are skimmers, therefore can use the portal - the rule you list is simply not applicable there. So yes, the WWP is fully usable by all troops in a raider, which is of course its primary purpose.

Naturally also, it is not usable by troops that walk.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 19:00:45


Post by: paidinfull


B)

My sentiment isn't that skimmers can not fly over troops. I would hope by now we all know that they can. B)
But that should a player be able to surround the portal, let's say with kroot for example, then because the opponent has met the criteria for surrounding the Portal, the DE player can't use it to enter the table.


The wargear FAQ states that:
"This means that, if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play. <snip>The moral of the tale is that you should defend the portal until you have used it and not simply abandon it in the middle of the enemy."

This to me means that the intent is to always have it defended.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 19:03:12


Post by: tegeus-Cromis


The problem here is that the rule itself is plainly making a false claim. From "[t]he normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply," it does not necessarily follow that "if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play." The question is, how then do we take the false claim? Do we ignore the "This means that" and take it that surrounding = no entry by fiat, or do we ignore "if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play" and instead use the logical consequences of normal movement rules applying? I see no way to resolve this by RAW. You have to house rule it one way or the other.

Personally, I'd allow skimmers to move as per normal. It would be unnecessarily draconian to DE players otherwise.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 19:17:59


Post by: MagickalMemories


tegeus-Cromis wrote:The problem here is that the rule itself is plainly making a false claim. From "[t]he normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply," it does not necessarily follow that "if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play." The question is, how then do we take the false claim? Do we ignore the "This means that" and take it that surrounding = no entry by fiat, or do we ignore "if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play" and instead use the logical consequences of normal movement rules applying? I see no way to resolve this by RAW. You have to house rule it one way or the other.

Personally, I'd allow skimmers to move as per normal. It would be unnecessarily draconian to DE players otherwise.



Okay, everyone.
Into your basements. Armageddon is here. The world will end in T-60 minutes.

I just agreed, 100% with something t-C said.

Maybe that's why my head hurts.

LOL

Seriously, though, it does seem as if GW -big surprise here- screwed up the wording on this one and presumed we'd "understand" what they meant.

Eric


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 19:21:17


Post by: 40kenthusiast


Ordinarily I'd be a member of the tegeus-Cronis camp, as the rules seem to allow flying over it. In this case the faq is so explicit that I've got to go with it. There's no way to be confused by what the author of that FAQ (GW's proxy in this instance) think about this situation. He's wrong on RAW, but he's got the authority. I vote no on based on the FAQ.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 20:07:12


Post by: fullheadofhair


How can you argue with such an absolute. "you cannot use it". No qualifier, no distinctions or anything - a simply straight forward "you cannot use it".

It doesn't say "models may not use" - then I could see the argument for skimmers being allowed.

This is based on the quote being accurate of-course.



Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 22:31:21


Post by: Ozymandias


Since this sprang from a discussion paidinfull and I (and Stelek) were having, here is why I voted yes: "Think of the edge of the portal marker as a piece of your own table edge. Models move onto the table from the portal marker, measuring from its edge as they would if they entered the table normally." Its the sentence right before the bold. Normal rules allow me to move right over enemy troops on my table edge.

BTW paidinfull, the poll is flawed. It should read: "If a webway portal is surrounded can it be used by Skimmers?"

Ozymandias, King of Kings


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 22:46:17


Post by: yakface



I changed the question of the poll to make it more clear.


I voted yes, skimmers can indeed use the portal even when it is surrounded.

The reasoning is (fairly) simple: The FAQ sates that the portal may not be used if it is surrounded, but there is context for this statement in the previous sentence: because models cannot come within 1" of enemy models.

You cannot remove this context from the ruling, otherwise you end up with a situation where the enemy forms a big giant ring around the webway portal several inches away from it, but the opposing player then claims "hey, I'm *surrounding* the webway portal so you can't use it!"


The fact remains, the ruling is given because of the 1" rule Since Skimmers are allowed to move over enemy models they may absolutely ignore the models surrounding the webway portal and move onto the table.



Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 22:52:57


Post by: Stelek


Yak, can you change my other poll question and give it both meaning and clarity?

'What is the meaning of life?'



Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 23:23:01


Post by: paidinfull


Yak,
I'm afraid I am going to have to disagree with that as you are inferring that the intent is only to troops. By the same rational i can create an argument that says that the intent isn't dependent on the Unit type.

"The moral of the tale is that you should defend the portal until you have used it and not simply abandon it in the middle of the enemy."

This to me, at least, says don't let it EVER get surrounded.

That by itself to me cements the RAI that it can NOT be used by skimmers or anything else, it doesn't matter if a skimmer can normally fly over something this isn't a normal circumstance and the fact that it is a skimmer has nothing to do with the Rule As Written.

Thank you for updating the poll but again I don't think it is necessary to distinguish the Unit Type as again... that isn't mentioned in the rules as written.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 23:34:12


Post by: Ozymandias


But that is the only thing we are arguing about. We aren't arguing if warriors can enter play. The question is whether or not Skimmers can, that is where the disagreement is. Therefore, the poll is only meaningful if it is about what we disagree about.

And you are arguing intent. We don't know the intent. To me, the intent is that for models walking on they can't enter. You are taking one sentence in isolation and applying it universally. You really can't do that, in the rules or in a FAQ.

Again, I can fly right over you in a skimmer if you are on my table edge and a WWP is an extension of my table edge.

Ozymandias, King of Kings


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 23:40:11


Post by: yakface



paidinfull wrote:Yak,
I'm afraid I am going to have to disagree with that as you are inferring that the intent is only to troops. By the same rational i can create an argument that says that the intent isn't dependent on the Unit type.



I didn't say that the ruling was referring only to infantry.

I said there is context provided in the ruling as to why it is made. Note the sentence with the ruling says:

"The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault. This means that, if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play."


The 1" rule is the reason why the ruling is made. It isn't the fact that the portal is surrounded its that normal models would be unable to enter play without coming within 1" of the enemy.

If you disagree with my assesment and take the ruling out of context I'll say it again:

If I "surround" the webway portal with a giant ring of models, but none of my models are within 10" of the webway portal, can DE models still emerge from the portal? The portal is definitely "surrounded" so no, right?


This is incorrect because when taken in context the ruling does not say that surrounding the portal is what causes it to be unusable, but rather the fact that surrounding a portal (within an inch of it) will prevent models from entering play because of the 1" rule.

Skimmers are able to ignore the 1" rule by moving over enemy models, so therefore they are not prohibited from entering play regardless of how close the enemy is to the WWP.



Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 23:41:03


Post by: paidinfull


Ozy
I'm actually trying to prove both RAI and RAW that regardless of unit type if the portal is surrounded that it can't be used.

Also the WWP is not your table edge if it was I would hope they would just say... the WWP is an extension of your table edge.

This is where you and I differ, I still feel that it is a piece of wargear with abilities and limitations. One of the limitations that I see from RAW and what I take as RAI is that it can not be used if surrounded.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 23:45:10


Post by: paidinfull


Yak
I hear ya, but from what you've said(making a huge circle) I think that is a stretch as well, as the model could exit the WWP within the 10"(your number).

What about the last sentence? That doesn't give you any pause in towards my point?


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 23:58:07


Post by: Stelek


No DE skimmer is 1" thin. Even Jetbikes are too thick sideways.

Now, both can 'go fast' but if you extend Yaks analogy to 22"...maybe you'll understand.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/07 23:59:55


Post by: Ozymandias


paidinfull wrote:Ozy

Also the WWP is not your table edge if it was I would hope they would just say... the WWP is an extension of your table edge.



You mean this sentence: "Think of the edge of the portal marker as a piece of your own table edge."?

Ozymandias, King of Kings


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 00:02:42


Post by: yakface


paidinfull wrote:Yak
I hear ya, but from what you've said(making a huge circle) I think that is a stretch as well, as the model could exit the WWP within the 10"(your number).

What about the last sentence? That doesn't give you any pause in towards my point?



A giant circle is a stretch? Why?

If you want to claim that "surrounding" the portal is what causes it to no longer be used, then "surrounding" it by a rough circle of any size would suffice to meet that criteria. You can't have it both ways at the same time.


As for the last sentence of the FAQ ruling, it certainly stands as a warning to players. Any non-skimmer unit in the webway portal is going to effectively be destroyed if the enemy surrounds the WWP within 1" of it.



Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 00:15:10


Post by: Stelek


Not to toss a wrench into the works, but...

It's not like Warriors entering play via a monolith being destroyed if they can't come in immediately, right?

It was my understanding you can try to enter play at a later date, thus be 'saved' from death at the end of the game.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 01:16:11


Post by: Seamus O'Shank


I believe that you can fly a Raider out of a WWP, even if it is surrounded.

But I think it'd be a funny tactic... Have your WWP set down, then leave it. Remind your enemy that very nasty things will be coming out of it. And then hint that if he surrounds it, nothing can come out. Then, if he's dumb enough, he'll do just that. Then you blast him with your troops already in the game.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 02:08:42


Post by: akira5665


Wouldn't it be a Tank-shock as soon as it deployed though??????? Tested against the units that are surrounding the WW?

Wouldn't the skimmer need to move away from the portal, thus running 'over' enemy units?

I am a SM player who plays against DE, so whilst I do not know the rules for DE, I would like to know for 'gaming' purposes.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 02:40:04


Post by: Stelek


Only if you have given the raider a trophy rack can it tank shock, it isn't naturally a tank.

I have some in my army, simply so I can tank shock dumbasses who stack non-fearless troops up in front of the WWP. Broken troops are troops I can ignore safely.

You do need to move away from the portal, but you don't overrun them you just fly over them.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 03:19:29


Post by: Seamus O'Shank


You mean Torture Amp, Stelek?

Trophy Racks doesn't allow you to tank shock.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 03:22:28


Post by: Stelek


Oops right. I knew it began with a T. And was two words.

Half credit?


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 03:25:51


Post by: Seamus O'Shank


Haha, sure. You're a better DE player than I, so I'll let you slide this time


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 05:28:47


Post by: paidinfull


Yak,
The example you described is a stretch as the 1" used in the FAQ stipulates that you are within at least 1" of the WWP.

Can a skimmer move within 1" of an enemy model?
Can a skimmer end its move over another model(not terrain)?

I still think you are also ignoring the fact that in GW's recent rulings they have always leaned towards RAW and it is clearly written "if it's surrounded it can't be used", not by skimmers, not by infantry, not by anything.

In response to moving on from the table edge, not webway portal related, in game terms there is nothing not on the table as the game system is relative. You could not "begin" your movement off of the table, meaning the model would have to be placed on the table, if by only a fraction, in order for you to measure from the edge of the table. Think of the table edge as 0".

The model has to be placed on the table prior to you being able to define it as having moved, as if you don't... the model, in game terms, hasn't moved, it's been placed an arbitrary distance relative to what...? It's starting point on... the table.

How else do you define the distance a model has "moved" if not by it's starting point in the only terms the game system works... on the table.

Ozy,
That being said, no I don't think you can fly over enemy troops even at your regular deployment/table edge. It's a stupid thing to accomplish and stupid for someone to do. Note they would have to be within 1" of your edge or right up on it.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 05:35:47


Post by: Stelek


Who said you place the model on the table then move it, paid?

All of the missions say:

'The defenders/attackers reserves move on from his table edge.'

How is it you're arguing this point all day, but don't know this?



Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 09:07:47


Post by: tegeus-Cromis


paidinfull:
Can a skimmer move within 1" of an enemy model?


Yes, of course they can.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 14:01:11


Post by: paidinfull


@TC
No they can't, no model can move within 1" of an enemy model this is in the BGB. I double checked this last night. Reading the skimmer rules it only says "they may always move over enemy troops" it says nothing about ignoring this basic blanket rule. It also clarifies that you can not end movement over a model. I even went and double checked the tank shock rules as i thought you moved into base contact with it for an assault(tank shock) but it is referenced that you can't be within 1" of an enemy model even in that rule. I continued to check everywhere in the BGB and I can't find anywhere that supports that a skimmer can begin it's movement within 1" of an enemy model.

What you guys are missing is that there has to be a point on the table, be it the edge or not, that the model has to be before it can "move". A point of origin am I right? The model has to have a starting point so you can define the distance it's traveled or going to travel. We know this is the case as the SMF rule talks about not claiming you moved around and then back to the original spot saying "well I've moved 12" in a circle around these trees and ended right back where i started."

The model, in this case a skimmer that wishes to exit the WWP, has a starting point that is within 1" of an enemy at which time it is neither flying/hovering etc.(all of which are purely decorative and not applicable in game terms) nor is it moving, it is about to or "going to" move. You can't claim that you've started moving from off of the table as that "doesn't exist" in game terms and is also noted in the DE FAQ.

@stelek
so where is the model starting? i thought the edge of a table is part of the table? if I place a model 0.5" wouldn't that point(the table edge) be within 1" of an enemy model? How can you start from somewhere if you weren't there to begin with?

Would you say that you could place a skimmer 1" onto the table and claim that it moved 5"+ while off of the table so that you could get SMF?


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 14:19:56


Post by: whitedragon


Vehicles can be within 1" of enemy models. After a vehicle assault, the enemy models do not get to consolidate, and so for the next turn, they stand next to the vehicle (assuming they didn't destroy it) Are you saying then the vehicle would not be free to move away, since it started it's move within 1"? Or would the enemy troops not be able to move either, since they began their move within 1"?


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 14:23:10


Post by: tegeus-Cromis


No they can't, no model can move within 1" of an enemy model this is in the BGB. I double checked this last night. Reading the skimmer rules it only says "they may always move over enemy troops" it says nothing about ignoring this basic blanket rule.


It is impossible to move over an enemy troop without moving within 1" of it in the process.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 14:37:29


Post by: paidinfull


@whitedragon
unfortunately they are supposed to be moved back 1" immediately after the assault phase. no one does it because it is a pain in the ass. The unit(yours) are not locked in combat and so "technically" are supposed to be moved away. Again, I doubt very few players think it's necessary to move them in such a way.

@tc
Is it impossible to fly over infinitely tall trees?
The game stipulates that the "few meters a skimmer hovers off the ground" [paraphrase] is enough to fly over Levels 1-3 terrain/models/etc.

No they can NOT come within 1" of an enemy model.
Nor can they end their movement over a model.

During their move "skimmers may always move OVER enemy troops" and there by are not moving within 1" of an enemy model as the game system requires that they stay outside of the 1" bubble.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 14:43:41


Post by: tegeus-Cromis


You say that when a skimmer flies over a model, it does not at any time come within 1" of it. Why, then, do you think it does so when it comes in through a surrounded WWP?


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 14:47:57


Post by: paidinfull


Because it is not beginning its movement INSIDE the portal.
that is why I brought up the point of SMF from off of your own table edge.

The very first point that the skimmer comes onto the table it is within that 1" bubble as it has not begun movement.

It can't be moving from outside of the table right?


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 14:56:56


Post by: tegeus-Cromis


The very first point that the skimmer comes onto the table it is within that 1" bubble as it has not begun movement.


Contradiction in terms: it has "come onto the table," yet it has not "begun movement"? How is this possible?

Let me backtrack a bit. I realise I didn't respond to a major point of yours.

Is it impossible to fly over infinitely tall trees?


No, it's entirely possible, but it doesn't mean you never came within 1" of them.

The game stipulates that the "few meters a skimmer hovers off the ground" [paraphrase] is enough to fly over Levels 1-3 terrain/models/etc.


And how does this lead you to conclude that it never comes within 1" of a model it's flying over?


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 15:03:44


Post by: Antonin


So Paidinfull, do reserves start off the table and move on, or do they deploy, and then move? Rhetorical question; they begin their move from reserves; they move into the table. (if you have been doing it the other way, then you have been gaining between 1" and 8" of movement, depending on the size of the vehicle you have "deployed and then moved", which is not okay)


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 15:05:59


Post by: paidinfull


So you're saying that you are moving before the model is actually on the table?

If that's the case, why are players not able to claim SMF if they only move 1" onto the table?

The phrase "come on to the table" meaning being placed into play.

I think we can both agree that it is not "moving" outside of the play area.

If it is not moving outside the play area when does it begin moving? At what point is it considered on the table? It's just there... within 1" of an enemy model?

You are choosing during the movement to fly at a "height" (something that is not well defined in 40k) and are REQUIRED to not come within 1" of an enemy model.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 15:12:35


Post by: paidinfull


@Antonin
I measure from the edge of the table like everyone else.

The point that I am trying to make is there is a point, in game terms, where the model is "existing" in play, not moving, even in the instances that we take as common place such as reserves.

We know that you can't claim movement distance off of the table as outside of the table is an unknown not defined in game terms. Because it is not moving, it has to have a point of origin where the model "exists" but is not moving. How else do you define that its moved? It moved from one point... to the next.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 15:20:37


Post by: yakface



It is immaterial. If there is a wall of enemy models blocking a table edge a skimmer can move on from the table edge moving over enemy models.

No rule has been broken. The skimmer has not come within 1" of any enemy models as it has moved over them.

The same exact thing is true of a Webway Portal.




Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 15:22:29


Post by: paidinfull


Antonin
(I wrote something else but didn't update doh!)
Think of the table edge as Point A.
Point A = 0
a skimmer moves from Point A to Point B
point B is 12" onto the table

What is the skimmer doing at Point A? It's not moving. It's just there... it's "existing". Point A can not be within 1" of an enemy model per the BGB.

What your are suggesting is that Point A is actually an arbitrary number that could potentially be a negative number when the game system doesn't permit that. It can't be moving at Point A and Point A can't be less than 0 as that is technically not on the table.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 15:22:40


Post by: tegeus-Cromis


So you're saying that you are moving before the model is actually on the table?


I am saying that the only way the model appears on the table is by moving on, and the distance moved is measured from the board edge (or WWP in this case). You do not plonk it on and then move it. You measure the distance and move it on. If it hasn't moved, it is not yet on the table.

If that's the case, why are players not able to claim SMF if they only move 1" onto the table?


Because "the skimmer must end its move more than 6" from where it started the turn." It started the turn at the table boundary.

The phrase "come on to the table" meaning being placed into play.


And how do you place it in play? You measure from the table edge/WWP and move it on. It is not on the table until it has moved on.

If it is not moving outside the play area when does it begin moving?


Good question. I'd like to hear your answer to it.

At what point is it considered on the table? It's just there... within 1" of an enemy model?


As per the BGB, it is on the table as soon as it has "moved on."

You are choosing during the movement to fly at a "height" (something that is not well defined in 40k) and are REQUIRED to not come within 1" of an enemy model.


So why may you not choose to come in through the WWP already at that height?


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 15:23:43


Post by: paidinfull


No it can't Yak
where does it say that a skimmer can ignore being within 1" of an enemy model while it isn't moving?


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 15:26:24


Post by: tegeus-Cromis


What is the skimmer doing at Point A? It's not moving. It's just there... it's "existing".


In this case, the skimmer is never "at" point A. First it is off-table. Then it has "moved on." It is not on the table until it has "moved on."


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 15:27:26


Post by: paidinfull


TC
Where is it moving from? It STARTS at 0(table edge) but it can't start there.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 15:32:02


Post by: paidinfull


If it is in motion, as you say, and has moved from some point off the table why can't we use that point to gain SMF?

Because that point is not relative in game terms as it is not on the table.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 15:34:09


Post by: tegeus-Cromis


You actually have a valid point. Either it does somehow "start" on the table or, if it doesn't, it can't possibly benefit from SMF at all on the turn it enters, since you can't measure distance to nowhere.

There's a problem, though. Quote me the rule that says it can't "start"/"exist" within 1" of an enemy. I see the one that says you can't "move within 1" of an enemy," but if your reading is correct, then the vehicle is not moving when it is at point A--so what's the problem?


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 15:36:32


Post by: paidinfull


I don't have the BGB here with me at work, so unfortunately I won't be able to quote it until later this evening.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 16:32:23


Post by: Ozymandias


At this point, the poll is pretty overwhelming against you paidinfull. I know you don't want to hear this, but you are wrong and we have now shown you again and again why you are wrong.

Since the majority agrees with me, Yakface, and t-C, the burden really lies with you. So far, you have failed to convince me (and in fact since Yakface joined the discussion, failed to convince anyone else, it was 7-6 when I voted and now is 13-6).

I'll keep checking this thread, but I don't see it getting any more useful.

Ozymandias, King of Kings


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 16:38:46


Post by: tegeus-Cromis


Here is an additional point: if, as paidinfull claims, there is a prohibition on merely "being"/"existing" within 1" of an enemy you aren't assaulting (a prohibition I cannot find in my dex), is it or is it not legal to be assaulted? After all, you aren't assaulting the enemy, yet you're within 1", right?


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 16:40:54


Post by: Stelek


Er no, I'd say if I placed a skimmer 1" on the table it moved 1".

If the skimmer was only one inch thick.

If it was a raider and I moved it 'straight' on, it's about 7" long so that'd be 7+1=8" of movement.

The edge doesn't have a measurement value--it's your starting point. It's not like you are deploying, you know that right? You are actually moving on.

Leman Russes can't just place themselves on the table and fire their ordnance weapon without scattering 2 dice. They moved 6" to get onto the table.

I'm still confused how you don't know this.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 16:42:08


Post by: paidinfull


I'm aware of that Ozy, and at this point if I am unable to find a quote that says a model can not "be" within 1" of an enemy model then I will concede.

Conversely I haven't felt there has been substantial evidence on Yak, you and TC's part to make me feel otherwise.

I honestly feel that it the game works as I'm describing it.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 16:45:19


Post by: whitedragon


paidinfull wrote:@whitedragon
unfortunately they are supposed to be moved back 1" immediately after the assault phase. no one does it because it is a pain in the ass. The unit(yours) are not locked in combat and so "technically" are supposed to be moved away. Again, I doubt very few players think it's necessary to move them in such a way.


This is not true at all. The FAQ states that the best way to resolve this is to AGREE to move the vehicles away after a close combat, but the rules do not state this. After a close combat with a vehicle, nobody goes anywhere, until the next movement phase.

My point was that since no model can come within 1" of another model unless to assault, this leaves both the vehicles and the attackers "technically" deadlocked for the rest of the game by RAW, which is silly obviously.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 16:49:22


Post by: paidinfull


Stelek...
when you place a model 27" from a board edge via deepstrike did you move it there or did you place it there? How far did it move? 27"? Where did it move from?

My point is that you aren't moving from a point off of the table.
The Leman Russ is a good example. The model has to be entirely on the table right? You can't opt to leave it at it's starting point which is the table edge because the model is not completely on the table so you are forced to move a minimum distance equal to the size of the model.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 16:57:02


Post by: paidinfull


whitedragon wrote:This is not true at all. The FAQ states that the best way to resolve this is to AGREE to move the vehicles away after a close combat, but the rules do not state this. After a close combat with a vehicle, nobody goes anywhere, until the next movement phase.

My point was that since no model can come within 1" of another model unless to assault, this leaves both the vehicles and the attackers "technically" deadlocked for the rest of the game by RAW, which is silly obviously.


here is the FAQ

It's clear that there should be a minimum space of 1" after the models have assaulted a vehicle.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 16:57:53


Post by: smart_alex


Sombody told me if you park a vehhicle on it that then the DE could not use it anymore.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 16:59:41


Post by: paidinfull


Actually you can't park on it
I believe it counts as impassible terrain.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 17:02:24


Post by: paidinfull


TC
I am not trying to imply that whatsoever. The close combat and assault phase rules and descriptions are sufficient for me.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 17:08:35


Post by: tegeus-Cromis


Of course you're not trying to imply it. My point is that it would be a consequence of what you're claiming.

Also, how on earth does

NOTE: If both players agree, the best way to represent
this is to move such models slightly away from the
vehicle at the end of their assault (ideally 1”!), much like
a consolidation move. This will also allow the vehicle to
move away more neatly during its Movement phase.


support your claim? Come on, it says right at the beginning that this can only be done "If both players agree," i.e. it is a suggested house rule.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 17:19:20


Post by: paidinfull


TC
No it wouldn't be a consequence as they would fall under a different section of the rules entirely which is defined as assault.

A suggested house rule? Ok... let's say they don't agree. What happens?

My turn:
I assault your Land Raider with 10 guardsmen with lasguns.

Your turn:
You go to move your Land Raider... oh wait you're with in 1" of my guardsmen... You can't do that.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 18:15:51


Post by: Boss GreenNutz


My take on it. You use the small blast template (or similar sized creation, as your WWP. If you measure it, the template is 1.5" in diameter. Even claiming the 1" rule a Raider would come out of the WWP .5" away from enemy troops. Think more than 2 dimensional here as Raiders exit the warp, they appear out of thin air.

Or another way to look at it. Nothing states the height of a WWP. So if I model mine to be 4" above the table, the Raider would be more than 1" away from most enemy troops as standard minis aren't that tall.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 19:13:33


Post by: Wehrkind


Actually Paid, here is the answer to your dilemma:
1:Models do not exist in game until the instant they enter the table.
2: Models in reserve enter either by A: Deepstriking, or B: Moving on as Reserves from a table edge.
3: If a Raider comes on, it can't be deep striking since it doesn't have that ability. So it is moving.
4: Since it can not exist in game until it moves, it must be able to move over troops, since skimmers are allowed to move over enemy troops.

Consider this consequence of disagreeing with statement 1 before you respond: if you say models exist when off table, one either has to define where they exist off table and where they do not, or one can not move ANY model to be within 1" of the table edge.
In other words, in the first case you are extending the table edge out an arbitrary number of inches and deploying your units in reserve behind the "line" of the normal table. In game units may not move to that point, but reserve units can. Thus you define where they are and where they are not.
In the second case, in the absence of defining where the units are not, you imply they must be everywhere, making the 1" at the table edges unusable by anyone, since you can not assault units that are not on the table.

However, even if it is the case that they exist off table, it still allows for skimmers to fly on, since they would be moving. Presumably less 1" than otherwise, since they had to be >1" away from models at the table edge, but they could come on just fine. Likewise, tanks could tank shock, or infantry could assault (or shoot!) since they "exist in game" off the table.

So yet again we come to that whether the skimmer exists off table or not, it still can come on by flying over other units. Which is handy, because figuring out where the skimmer is in the extra dimensional space that is both off the table and in the webway would be a real bear. And not the drinking kind of bear, mind you.
Essentially, the question becomes not "can skimmers enter from a table edge that is lined with enemy troops" but "can tanks tank shock as they come onto the board from reserves?"


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 20:06:02


Post by: Stelek


Funny thing is, the list in question--I have tank shocking raiders and non-tank shocking raiders.

I've run over some units with the snares and tank shocked others, all from the board edge.

Never had a complaint and I've been doing it since the DE got vehicle wargear years ago.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 20:27:48


Post by: paidinfull


@Wehr
1. I totally agree this is what I've been trying to communicate. It is at that instant that they are on the table they are within 1" of an enemy model and are not allowed into play.

2. Exactly, in order to be moving in game terms they are using a defined point, the table edge, as a starting point before it begins "moving", as it didn't exist before, which is 1" away from an enemy model.

3. I'm not sure how this works as I thought DE had wargear/vehicle upgrade that allows the raider to deepstrike... so I don't see how limiting them only to "entering game play by moving" enables them to "exist" legally in game terms.

4. Can a skimmer that moves over troops end its movement within 1" of an enemy model?

Stelek
It is my opinion, that the majority of people misplay the DE, predominantly because its a 2nd edition codex and it was written before the Necronomicon.
B)


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 20:42:08


Post by: Antonin


Well, if you think that a Raider cannot move over people as it is entering the table, I can see why you would have the opinion that most people misplay DE.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 20:51:11


Post by: paidinfull


I'm saying that the raider isn't moving at the instant that it is in play

How can it start a process, in "game terms", before it was ever a part of the "game"?



Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 20:52:34


Post by: paidinfull


What happens if you deepstrike within 1" of an enemy model?

What happens if you are forced to exit a vehicle within 1" of an enemy model?

(rhetorical)


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 21:02:03


Post by: Stelek


What does deep strike (red herring) have to do with this issue?

If I run DE and I deep strike with the tank shock wargear, I make you move, otherwise I die. Is the table edge where I put my vehicle down??

What does disembarking (red herring) have to do with this issue?

Are vehicles your table edge in some way? No.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 21:10:25


Post by: paidinfull


@Stelek
The two rhetorical questions were intent to show that the only time a model can come within 1" of an enemy model is during an assault.

That is the only time.

Aside:
How are you combining deepstrike and tank shock? They are two different types of movement and the tank shock rules are pretty specific.

Also,
what did you mean by "are vehicles your table edge in some way?"
I honestly don't know what you meant


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 21:41:41


Post by: Ozymandias


The rules for Deepstrike and Disembark have no bearing on the rules we are discussing. Trying to say they do is, as Stelek pointed out, a red herring.

Ozymandias, King of Kings


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 21:59:58


Post by: Stelek


Tank shock says I start it in my movement phase.

Dark Eldar can both deep strike (screaming jets) and tank shock (torture amp).

So you 'start your movement phase' by 'nominating a direction' (umm...down?) and move your vehicle via deep strike. Assuming you don't scatter into a vehicle or impassable terrain (which destroys you), you can deep strike and tank shock a unit out of the way.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/08 22:00:17


Post by: Wehrkind


Paid: You completely missed my point.

The point was that the unit does not exist until the instant it MOVES onto the battle field. As the skimmer is MOVING when it enters the battle field, and skimmers may MOVE over enemy units as though they were not there as long as they do not end their move within 1", they can MOVE onto the battle field whether there are enemy troops lined up at the edge or not.

My point about Deep Strike was that the rule did not apply, even though it is an option for coming in from reserves. Maybe they can deep strike, I don't know.

So, in summation, when something enters the table edge from reserves, there is NEVER an instant where it is not moving until it ends it's movement. From the instant it comes on the board up to and until the moment it is done moving, it is moving. It is not placed on the board, then moved. It is simply moved. It does not exist as an unmoved model until it is finished with its movement.

I am running out of paraphrases, and have developed a disliking for the word "move".


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/09 07:05:17


Post by: tegeus-Cromis


I do not see why anyone should bother giving paidinfull the time of day until he can actually point to a rule that states that a model may not "exist"/"be" within 1" of an enemy. You guys are making sensible counterarguments, but they are unnecessary, in that paid's argument falls apart without your help.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/09 15:41:41


Post by: Wehrkind


Touche, t-C, touche.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/09 16:32:37


Post by: paidinfull


I want to make it clear so that everyone is aware that my personal stance on playing a game is just that… you are playing a game and it is meant to be fun and enjoyed by both parties. Regardless of whether the game is for fun or for a tournament if you and your friend/opponent agree, what the rule says, then neither the BGB nor anyone else’s opinion matters.

I’ve continued this discussion because I honestly believe that the intent and written word of the FAQ, the BGB, and the DE codex is that if the portal is surrounded so that enemy models come within 1” of an opposing player’s model(s) then it cannot be used. We are at a point where, as others have pointed out, I am unable to provide a convincing argument as to my interpretation and conversely I am not convinced that I am in the wrong. I have taken some time to try and outline my point one final time and if I am unable to convince you that my opinion is valid and that I am indeed correct, then we are truly at an impasse. I respect other’s opinions and the right to play the game however they want in a fun and what they deem fair manner and I would hope that my opinion and perspective can be appreciated with the same level of respect. Again, if I am unable to convince you I am at a loss and am not going to continue posting on this matter.

First and foremost the point of this discussion was to determine whether or not a web way portal could be used as a means of entry onto the table if it was surrounded. Before I address this I have made claims that I have witnessed Dark Eldar playing rules incorrectly. This is only a half truth as obviously we all make mistakes from time to time but I have consistently seen 2 aspects of the Dark Eldar Codex/Army played incorrectly and I felt I should make these discrepancies clear. These 2 instances are:

- Continuing to use the web way portal after it has been surrounded by an opposing player.
- Rolling for reserves and keeping those reserves in non-alpha level missions or in games where reserves are normally allowed. They would keep the units they successfully rolled in reserve until the portal was opened even though the BGB and the codex stated otherwise when in fact they would have to move onto the table from their board edge.

I have seen these two instances played this way in tournaments and in friendly games, and I have also agreed with players to allow them to be played this way. It’s important to play fair and have fun and even in games that I have lost it has been fun. Even going by the poll it is clear that others, while not everyone, don’t feel that a web way portal can be used if surrounded. While this topic is about the web way portal and it being used if it is surrounded, I would like to explain the second issue first, though unrelated, as I already have something written up that clarifies my opinion and hopefully shows that I am aware of the rules and what I am talking about.

This section uses quotes taken directly from the Dark Eldar codex.

Codex quote:

"If you have a web way portal in your army you may keep units in reserve, even if you are not normally allowed to do so in the mission being played.



This sentence only allows you to keep units in reserve if reserves are not normally permitted. That is all it says. It doesn't say you can hold units in reserve and when they become available you can continue to hold them in reserve.
Codex quote:
"If you do this then the troops may only enter through the web way, and if it has not been opened on the turn they become available to enter play, they must be held back until it is."


This sentence says "if you do this" meaning "you held units in reserve and are not normally allowed to have reserves" then they must enter play via the web way portal.

Like I said before, this verbiage has been a point of contention for awhile but it most certainly does not do what you suggest. Remember that rules are permissive. They allow you certainly abilities.

FAQ quote:
"The following is a simple way to understand how the web way portal is used:
When the web way portal is in position, it acts as a gate through which your reserves can enter the table. Think of the edge of the portal marker as a piece of your own table edge. Models move onto the table from the portal marker, measuring from its edge as they would if they entered the table normally. The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.
This means that, if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play.
Units may not partially enter play using the portal nor may they charge through it.
The moral of the tale is that you should defend the portal until you have used it and not simply abandon it in the middle of the enemy."


As you can see from the FAQ and the codex the webway portal does this:
1. Allows you to keep units in reserve if you normally can't ie Gamma
2. Acts like an extension of your table edge

You are welcome to ask the rules lawyers or GW, hell you can easily use it the way you are wanting as the game is intended to be fun, but as I said, I am 100% Positive that what I am telling you is RAW and RAI.

pg 84-85 explains how reserves work. In this section they also note that reserves function according to the mission and how to roll for them. I find it interesting that only the BGB and not RTT or GT missions describe how your reserves move/are placed/come onto the table, at least not the ones that I have saved.

"When a unit arrives, it must move on as specified in the Reserves section of the mission description."
"Note: You must roll for reserves as soon as possible and must bring them onto the table as soon as they are available. You may not delay making the dice rolls or keep reserves hanging around off-table until you decide you need them!"


In any mission where reserves are normally available you cannot ignore the BGB as the codex nor does the FAQ say anything about that. In normal games (to me at least, Gamma/Omega) the best thing the portal does is allow some of your units a turn to move forward and/or ensures your next reserves are able to get into the thick of it sooner.

Even if you deploy a unit at the edge of your deployment zone, and open the portal(s) turn 1, you have added 15" usually, that is still pretty significant. Factor in a skimmer that can move 12", allow a disembark of 2", a unit that can fleet 6", and maybe charge 12" you have a unit that can charge 47" I think that’s pretty awesome. I was using a wych squad in a raider with the 12" drug roll for my example by the way.
I hope that we can agree that the web way portal does not indeed allow the Dark Eldar player the ability to create a “bottleneck” as I feel I have sufficiently outlined and provided facts that they cannot indeed hold units in reserve when they are available in a game that permits Reserves. Done?
Now to the heart of what we have been discussing. Can a Dark Eldar player continue to use the web way portal even after it has been surrounded?
FAQ quote:
Think of the edge of the portal marker as a piece of your own table edge. Models move onto the table from the portal marker, measuring from its edge as they would if they entered the table normally.


Ok it is very clear that the portal is essentially a piece of your own board edge. This is all this sentence says and we can now enter play as we would from a normal board edge. Pretty straight forward right?

FAQ quote:
The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.


The connotation of first part of this sentence is clear that there is a rule for proximity. “The normal rules for proximity apply…” which is: “that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.” Now a proximity “rule” may be something from 3rd Edition or 2nd Edition, but it is definitely conveyed through a slew of other rules that players must keep 1” away from opposing models. To further justify this claim, as you can see it is not saying “move” within 1” of an enemy it is not saying “placed” within in 1”, it is saying you cannot come, or “be/exist” in my words, within 1” of an enemy model, which encompasses placed, moved, started, is just plain there. This sentence is also further clarification of how the web way portal is not an exception to any rules in the BGB regarding movement and proximity. I have posted references to the main BGB FAQ, tank shock, movement, deep strike, and disembarking from a destroyed vehicle to compound even further that it is a rule, and understood, that you cannot ever, except during an assault, be within 1” of an enemy model. Skimmers are no exception to this rule. They have a different rule that allows them to “always choose to move over enemy models”. In the BGB under skimmers, it does not say that they may come within 1” of an enemy model, it simply grants them an added ability to facilitate their act of movement. If this was the case, that a skimmer can indeed, come within 1” of an enemy model, that enemy model/unit would NOT be able to move in its following turn. The skimmer would then not be able to move away as it has come within 1” of an enemy model. This is supported, granted in respects to a different subject that being HTH with a vehicle but it still conveys the precedence set of the proximity rule(coming within 1” of an enemy model), by the BGB FAQ:
The question is:
Can a non-ws vehicle move away from [a] unit it was engaged with in the previous turn for the purpose of not going within 1” of an enemy in the Movement phase (as it is already in base contact with the unit)

The response was: [It is not locked nor engaged] but it continues on to support the proximity rule as the unit are not in an assault with the vehicle anymore and therefore cannot come within 1” of an enemy model.

NOTE: If both players agree, the best way to represent this is to move such models slightly away from the vehicle at the end of their assault (ideally 1”!),


It makes a specific reference to 1” which is a reference back to the proximity rule. The units aren’t in an assault anymore so they can’t/shouldn’t be within 1” of each other as that conflicts with multiple other rules.


much like a consolidation move. This will also allow the vehicle to move away more neatly during its Movement phase.


Just finishing up the quote so that we can see this is to remain consistent with the rest of the rules and make the game easier to play. We go back to the Dark Eldar FAQ

FAQ quote:
This means that, if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play.

Now we come to this sentence which is so finite and so blanketing in how it is written. It is the rule. “This means that if the [enemy models are positioned/placed surrounding the web way portal so that the opposing player cannot come within 1” of an enemy model per the normal proximity rule] [then] [the Dark Eldar player] cannot be use [the portal] to enter play.” When I began this discussion this was my main point. It makes no difference what so ever that the models in question are skimmers, tanks, infantry, jump infantry, etc. in the Dark Eldar player’s reserves the portal simply cannot be used. As you can see, the fact that we have been debating the fact that a skimmer can use it is immaterial and is of no consequence to this discussion.
Yes, skimmers can fly over enemy troops.
No, they cannot break the proximity rule of coming within 1” of an enemy model, which I have supported with multiple other rules that I’m sure you don’t need me to quote.
Yes, the portal is surrounded so that an enemy model cannot come/be/exist/move within 1” of an enemy model.
No, the portal cannot be used to enter play.

What this means in tournament/competitive play is very little. So you can’t use the portal to enter play… does that mean you auto lose? No, of course not, you can still move on from your board edge, you are just not able to use the web way portal wargear.

FAQ quote:
Units may not partially enter play using the portal nor may they charge through it.


This sentence further supports that it cannot be used at all (period). This is because the charge happens in an entirely different phase, the assault phase, and while they cannot move or come onto the table they are prohibited entirely from using the web way portal if it is indeed surrounded as I have outlined previously. This is the same thing with tank shocking out of the portal, it cannot be used so it makes no difference that you have bought wargear that allows you to tank shock. The wargear is rendered useless by the act of being surrounded.

FAQ quote:

The moral of the tale is that you should defend the portal until you have used it and not simply abandon it in the middle of the enemy."


What else needs to be said? Don’t let it get surrounded! If it is surrounded you can’t use the web way portal and you are S.O.L. if the game does not allow reserves(Alpha, special missions) as only the portal allowed them to be held in reserves to begin with, which… it now cannot be used. I do not know what else to say to make it clear that there is indeed a proximity rule and it is supported in other instances and that the FAQ clearly states it cannot be used at all by anything if it is surrounded in this way.

Lastly we have gone onto a bit of a tangent regarding the deployment board edge and “moving on from the board edge” and skimmers flying over models lined up along the edge. This is in my opinion, the DUMBEST, most asinine thing your friend/opponent can try to do to you. The only clear way I can see this being achieved is:
-He infiltrated a ton of models all along your board edge and has in fact wasted your time and his own to show you this absolutely condescending method of winning a game. At which point you should feel free to reach across the table and smack the ever living crap out of your opponent.
-The game is escalation and you are entirely mechanized and your opponent is somehow able to cross 36” before you have anything available(a successful reserve roll), plausible most likely with Dark Eldar or Eldar because of 24”+ movement on their vehicles.

While entertaining in theory I can’t imagine this action doing anything than pissing off your opponent, which goes against my cardinal belief of having fun… I mean really? You made me wait 20 minutes to put your crap out so you could just say “I win”?

We have discussed at length how reserves come onto the table and I felt that I best described this situation previously by saying in order to measure the distance moved on the table the vehicle has to be ON the table to begin with, as I don’t see how it can make sense otherwise. I fail to understand the idea that the units are in a state of “perpetual motion” while in reserve especially since we can’t count where they started from in reserve. If they are moving from a point in reserve that is not on the table why can’t we effectively move 1” onto the table and claim SMF rule? I see them as coming into play exactly at the table edge and that, in this case, is within 1” of an enemy unit (board edge) and the moving from the table edge to another point on the table. I logically don’t understand, and I hope this isn’t coming across condescending or insulting, I really just don’t understand (I’m probably just that dumb ), if they are coming on from a point that is not on the table, ie in a reserve area/stasis/whatever, why we are not able to arbitrarily say that point was 6”, or any number for that matter, “deep”. I honestly think that it is dumb for anyone to try win a game in this fashion and don't really see a point to continuing this discussion further on lining up along a table edge.

Hehe
I have even put together a little graphic which I can post if we really need to, so we can discuss further to help me understand better, I’m a graphics guy I need visuals , but I think it is a separate point not related to the web way portal as the web way portal is still a piece of wargear with its own rules and I feel I have clearly conveyed why it cannot be used for skimmers, or any other unit, if it is indeed surrounded.
I would also like to say, that if I have come across as rude, condescending, insulting, a jerk, in ANY way, that was really not my intent. If I have offended anyone on Dakka please accept my humblest apologies, and I want to be clear to stelek, tegeus-Cromis, yakface, ozymandias, wehrkind, boss greennutz, or anyone else for that matter that I respect your opinion and in no way was it my intent to offend anyone. If you took the time to read all of this, thank you, I just wanted to be as clear as I possibly could.
As I have said at the start of my post if you do not now agree with me that the web way portal, indeed, cannot be used at ALL, if it is surrounded, the I respectfully disagree with you and appreciate your right to play the game any way you please.
Cheers
C

Also, I would hate for you to think ill of me as if you check my sportsmanship scores or ask any of my gamer friends or gamers in my community I am fun to play against and am most certinaly not an oppressive rules lawyer or a cheater when we play. However, when we are discussing in a forum environment, as we are, I simply try to make my opinion heard as best I can and am also willing to appreciate when I am in the wrong.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/09 16:53:41


Post by: Stelek


Holy crap you wrote a tactica. lol

I'm not offended in any way, it's ok to disagree on points.

You weren't a jackass about it IMO.

So we disagree. Big deal.

It wouldn't ruin a game, as it'd take a miracle for you to surround my WWP before I could deploy them. Like if I was asleep and you played on without me. That kind of miracle. lol


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/09 17:01:30


Post by: paidinfull


It is very tough to even achieve surrounding the portal... and if you take 2? Why even bother. As I pointed out, if you agree with me that they can't be used, the majority of the time this hardly effects you... um, you can't move 12" on from your own board edge, disembark 2", fleet 6" and maybe charge 6-12" and get me? that's 26-32" if you dropped it first turn... where am I? within 15".

I'm glad that I didn't offend you.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/09 17:06:17


Post by: thehod


paidinfull, your continuing a debate and its painfully obvious that your the only one arguing against when you have had several posters who normally disagree with one another agree on this rules issue.

I suggest this thread be locked because its going in circles and I have seen arguments from both sides constantly stated and restated. No new material is coming out of this and its turning into a shouting match.

also lets keep in mind this is codex wording from 3rd edition and even the FAQ is just the beginning of 4th edition so the rules are still pretty much obsolete to the point we are arguing over bad wording.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/09 17:06:56


Post by: Ozymandias


Except that you continue to ignore Yak's point that the "This means that" is a clarification of the previous sentence. It doesn't apply to skimmers as they can effectively ignore the 1" rule as they move. You are treating a clarification as if it overrides a basic rule and you are wrong. You have failed to convince me and the majority of posters on this thread. How you play with your friends is fine, do whatever you want, but know that what you are saying is not RAW, I don't believe its RAI, and not what the majority of players think.

Ozymandias, King of Kings


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/09 17:08:57


Post by: paidinfull


I just said, If [he] agrees with me

The debate is done as you've pointed out.
I made a statement that if, after you read my post you don't agree than that's fine


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/09 17:09:45


Post by: Moz


You are putting far too much argument into a description that starts with "The following is a simple way to understand how the web way portal is used: "

This line tells us that the following text is an example, an illustration to help the reader understand the RAW that is presented in the codex. It does not change or add to the RAW in the codex, but it does provide cautions against the ramifications of the full rules (surrounded, can't get out). It does not then run through every possible exception to that situation, but it doesn't need to as the RAW hasn't changed.

So for entering a surrounded table edge:
P1 The beginning of the turn takes place during the movement phase
P2 Skimmers may always move over enemy models
P3 Reserves enter the table at the beginning of the turn
C1 Models entering from reserves do so as part of their movement and are subject to their movement rules
C2 Skimmers may enter the table from reserves by moving over enemy models

Edit: and sorry if I'm retreading covered ground here, I did not read the entire thread. :(


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/09 18:15:10


Post by: Antonin


Paid, I like how you note the two items that you have seen DE players play incorrectly, which two items are being done correctly by the DE player by the explicit rules in their book. Yes, if you hold models back in reserves to send them through the WWP, those hold back and do not come on until the WWP is in place. You can cite to the main rulebook all you want; just remember that specific rules in the codices supersede the general rules (which the specific WWP rules do). On entering play- the FAQ is entirely correct for footslogging troops- they cannot enter through a WWP that is surrounded. However, again, Skimmers have another rule which makes them the exception. So, on the two points you disagree with DE players on, their rules pretty explicitly say they are right.

I see that other people have voted in favor of Paid's position - I would love to hear from any of those players as to their thoughts.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/09 23:05:51


Post by: insaniak


It's a nice analysis... but it all falls apart here:

paidinfull wrote:
FAQ quote:
The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.


The connotation of first part of this sentence is clear that there is a rule for proximity. “The normal rules for proximity apply…” which is: “that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.” Now a proximity “rule” may be something from 3rd Edition or 2nd Edition, but it is definitely conveyed through a slew of other rules that players must keep 1” away from opposing models. To further justify this claim, as you can see it is not saying “move” within 1” of an enemy it is not saying “placed” within in 1”, it is saying you cannot come, or “be/exist” in my words, within 1” of an enemy model, which encompasses placed, moved, started, is just plain there.



'Cannot come within' does not mean 'cannot exist within.
'Coming within' is simply another way of saying 'moving within'


You have a fair point so far as skimmers moving over models still not being able to come within 1" of them... but that's as far as it goes.



Yes, the portal is surrounded so that an enemy model cannot come/be/exist/move within 1” of an enemy model.
No, the portal cannot be used to enter play.


You still haven't explained why this stops skimmers from using the portal, since they don't care if the models are surrounding the portal... they can just go over them anyway.



We have discussed at length how reserves come onto the table and I felt that I best described this situation previously by saying in order to measure the distance moved on the table the vehicle has to be ON the table to begin with, as I don’t see how it can make sense otherwise.


What doesn't make sense about measuring from the board edge and then placing the vehicle?


I fail to understand the idea that the units are in a state of “perpetual motion” while in reserve especially since we can’t count where they started from in reserve.


They're in a what now?



If they are moving from a point in reserve that is not on the table why can’t we effectively move 1” onto the table and claim SMF rule?


Because you can't measure distances off the table. If you can't measure more than 1" on the table, the vehicle has not moved more than 1".

Unless you can find a rule that allows distance measured off the table to count for anything.


I logically don’t understand, and I hope this isn’t coming across condescending or insulting, I really just don’t understand (I’m probably just that dumb ), if they are coming on from a point that is not on the table, ie in a reserve area/stasis/whatever, why we are not able to arbitrarily say that point was 6”, or any number for that matter, “deep”.


We're not able to say that because the rules don't say that.

The model moves on from the table edge. Not from a point 6" beyond the table edge.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/09 23:38:19


Post by: paidinfull


insaniak
You said
You have a fair point so far as skimmers moving over models still not being able to come within 1" of them... but that's as far as it goes.

If a skimmer is held to this same rule, like all other models in the game, for example a skimmer can't end it's move within 1" of an enemy model, wouldn't
"The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault."
still be applicable to the skimmer?

A skimmer moves over a model but not within 1" of an enemy model, at least it is my understanding that the rules right?

If a skimmer is susceptible to that rule, as I've tried to point out before, then surrounding the portal would indeed mean that it can't be used at all.

"This means that, if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play. "

You also so said
You still haven't explained why this stops skimmers from using the portal, since they don't care if the models are surrounding the portal... they can just go over them anyway.

The skimmers might not "care"... but the webway portal does... that's why i was saying earlier that it doesn't matter what type the unit is, it can't be used because the Wargear doesn't permit it's use if it's surrounded.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/10 00:58:32


Post by: smart_alex


SO it says in the profile that a portal is impassible terrain. Then how can people come out of it?


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/10 01:49:34


Post by: Stelek


The edge of the template is treated as your board edge.

The INTERIOR of the template is the 'impassable' terrain.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/10 04:54:47


Post by: insaniak


paidinfull wrote:If a skimmer is held to this same rule, like all other models in the game, for example a skimmer can't end it's move within 1" of an enemy model, wouldn't "The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault." still be applicable to the skimmer?


Of course they would still be applicable.

They simply wouldn't matter, as the rules don't stop the skimmer emerging from the portal from moving over enemy troops as normal.


If a skimmer is susceptible to that rule, as I've tried to point out before, then surrounding the portal would indeed mean that it can't be used at all.


And as has been pointed out right back at you, the skimmer moving from the portal doesn't have to move within 1" of enemy models, any more than a skimmer moving around the board has to do so.


The skimmers might not "care"... but the webway portal does... that's why i was saying earlier that it doesn't matter what type the unit is, it can't be used because the Wargear doesn't permit it's use if it's surrounded.


It can't be used (if surrounded) by models who would have to move within 1" of the surrounding models in order to move from the portal.

The skimmer doesn't need to move within 1" of those models. It simply moves over them.

You're taking a statement out of context, and claiming that it applies arbitrarily to everything. This is simply not supported by the rules as a whole.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/10 13:46:36


Post by: paidinfull


Bro,
You are saying that "come" is the same thing as "move"...
If I place a model within 1" of another model have I "come" within 1"? Yes I have. It doesn't matter how they got there that they moved, deep struck, were placed, just appeared " "notably, you can't come within 1" of an enemy model except in an assault" is a rule that is applicable to all models in the game. Whether the skimmer has an ability to move over an enemy model is immaterial and the skimmer is still bound by this rule. We know this because it is presumed that when you are moving over an enemy model with your skimmer that you are abiding by the "normal rules of proximity" and the undefined distance that you are moving "over" the enemy model is in fact greater than 1".

Since this statement is an absolute, meaning it applies to everything, the clarification is ALSO an absolute. No where is it written that "if the portal is surrounded it can't be used, except by skimmers and/or jump infantry"

Those who do not agree with my standpoint are attempting to make an exception from a rule that simply isn't written anywhere.

To go even further than that, this is a Codex FAQ which, as Antonin carefully pointed out, supersedes the BGB. Please tell me where in the FAQ or in the Dark Eldar Codex it says that if the portal is surrounded that it can STILL be used, or that it can still be used by skimmers.

@Antonin,
I missed your previous post in which you said I was incorrect. Could you please find in the codex where it says that you are allowed to keep units in reserve after you have successfully passed a reserve roll in a mission that allows normal reserves?


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/10 14:04:52


Post by: Antonin


I am referring to the rule that you quoted from the codex. Let's see that quote:

paidinfull wrote:
This sentence only allows you to keep units in reserve if reserves are not normally permitted. That is all it says. It doesn't say you can hold units in reserve and when they become available you can continue to hold them in reserve.
Codex quote:
"If you do this then the troops may only enter through the web way, and if it has not been opened on the turn they become available to enter play, they must be held back until it is."



You quoted it! As the rule explicitly says, "they must be held back until it is." Of course, your analysis immediately above it says something completely different than the rule, but that's what we have been saying about your analysis all along.

You will next say that I haven't limited that to situations where the reserve rule is not in play in the general scenario. Your statement would be incorrect. The WWP rule allows you to hold back models even if you would not normally be able to do so - it makes no distinction between those two situations, but rather says that you can hold models back in reserve, no matter what. If you hold those models back, then they must go through the WWP.

Any other questions?


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/10 14:25:25


Post by: paidinfull


I don't know how else to spell that out for you but all it says is you are allowed to keep a unit in reserve, which would be at the start of the game... think of Terminator armor and the ability to always start in reserve even if it's not allowed. They can always Deep Strike... even if the mission doesn't allow it.

All the portal does is allow you to have reserves if the mission doesn't allow reserves. If the mission doesn't allow and you choose to hold units in reserve using the web way portal the only way they can come in to play is through the web way portal.

In a game that normally has reserves... do i have to deep strike my terminators? No. It's just normal reserves and follows the BGB.

If that isn't clear... why don't you explain to me what "this" is referring to in the sentence. "If you do this"


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/10 14:38:46


Post by: insaniak


paidinfull wrote:Bro,


Bro???


If I place a model within 1" of another model have I "come" within 1"?


What does this have to do with moving on from the edge of the table?

You don't place the model on the table edge. You measure from the table edge, and then place the model in the final position.


Those who do not agree with my standpoint are attempting to make an exception from a rule that simply isn't written anywhere.


As opposed to taking a single statement out of context and trying to bend it into a rule in its own right?


To go even further than that, this is a Codex FAQ which, as Antonin carefully pointed out, supersedes the BGB.


That doesn't mean that it changes the way every rule in the game works.

If the portal can not be used because emerging models may not move within 1" of the surrounding models, then surely models that don't need to move within 1" of the surrounding models won't have a problem.

Again, you can't just take the part of the rule that proves your point and remove it from all context. That's not RAW... it's taking a statement out of context... which makes it meaningless.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/10 15:03:52


Post by: Antonin


paidinfull wrote:If that isn't clear... why don't you explain to me what "this" is referring to in the sentence. "If you do this"


"if you do this" refers to holding models in reserve under the WPP rule (note the WPP rule is not limited only to situations where the scenario does not allow reserves - it applies to all missions. Believe me, there are many times DE players would like to be able to bring their WPP reserves in from the normal table edge!)

However, this is OT - I'm more interested in what you have to say in response to insaniak's points.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/10 15:07:21


Post by: paidinfull


Yes,
"Bro" its a common colloquialism, like "man" or "dude"

What does this have to do with moving on from the edge of the table?


I should have elaborated. If I place a model, not move it in game terms, just place it, set it down, 0.5" away from another model. Is it now within 1" of another model? Has it come within 1"?
This has nothing to with movement, as you keep trying to make it so that skimmers are exempt from the web way portal rule, and everything to do with PROXIMITY.

The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.


The act of being NEAR another model. Doesn't matter how it happens, you can't be there... which applies even to skimmers! Skimmers can't be within 1" of an enemy model.

PROXIMITY: the quality or state of being proximate
PROXIMATE: very near

The FAQ does not say... the normal rules for movement apply. It says "The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply"
Since the skimmers can not be NEAR, a ka within 1", of an enemy model as well, they are bound to the FAQ statement. There is no exemption for movement. A statement that applies to every model in game terms, "you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault" is followed by a rule, IMO, a clarification in yours, that if the portal is surrounded then it can not be used. Since the portal can not be used they can not move in from that point


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/10 15:09:14


Post by: Antonin


To go even further than that, this is a Codex FAQ which, as Antonin carefully pointed out, supersedes the BGB.


Actually, Paidinfull, I said that codex rules supersede the main book. So, you have changed my quote. I said nothing about the codex FAQs. Note that there have been issues with out of date FAQs. Also, I would not say that a codex FAQ rule which says nothing about skimmers deprives then of an ability which is listed for them in the rules - i.e the ability, unlike other models, to go over models. The FAQ reference is for the normal situation, and does apply to the normal situation (foot troops) but to take it the step farther and eliminate rules by implication is too much of a leap.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/10 15:17:46


Post by: paidinfull


True
I apologize for mis quoting you.
Unfortunately, in this case, the Codex is very abstract as to how the web way portal works. It is a Second Edition Codex after all.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/10 17:01:08


Post by: Wehrkind


I am sorry Paid, but I just can't explain this another way. I tried, but you are not comprehending. How, I don't know. In fact, I am beginning to wonder if it is intentional. It isn't a difficult concept, but I just can't explain it in another fashion, or more clearly for you.

I appologize.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/10 18:02:44


Post by: budro


Paid: I get your points. I do. Trust me...

But I think that it is mostly a case of two things which makes them not work:

First, the DE dex is old. The FAQ is old.

Secondly and while it's been mentioned several times, I think it maybe has not had the right emphasis placed on it,

The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.


Now you have been using this in order to argue that proximity is what keeps skimmers from flying out of the WBB and over surrounding troops. Correct?

I'm going ot use it in a slightly different fashion. It's the word normal that I'm going to focus on instead of proximity. Skimmers moving over enemy troops supercedes the normal rules for enemy in proximity.

Skimmers can always choose to more over enemy troops and this neither impedes their movement nor...


The skimmer rule over-rides the proximity rules. That rule tells you that the proximity rule is not in effect if a skimmer chooses to fly over the enemy.

Conclusion: skimmers can fly out of the blasted WBP.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/10 23:51:53


Post by: insaniak


paidinfull wrote:I should have elaborated. If I place a model, not move it in game terms, just place it, set it down, 0.5" away from another model. Is it now within 1" of another model? Has it come within 1"?


Elaborate all you like. But first please explain what it has to do with the actual issue at hand.

If the skimmer emerges from the portal, and lands 12" away from it, you're not placing it within 1" of the surrounding models, are you?



This has nothing to with movement,


It has everything to do with movement, because the rules only prohibit you from moving within 1" of enemy models, not from being within 1".




The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.


Exactly. The normal rules.

The normal rules for heavy weapons state that models can not move on the same turn as they fire the weapon.
Some models have a rule that allows them to move and fire heavy weapons on the same turn.

If an FAQ pointed out that in a specific situation the normal rules for heavy weapons apply, so models can not move and fire with them, would that over-ride the ability of specific models to move with them?

Surely not. The normal rules apply, and specific rules for certain unit types therefore continue to modify those normal rules.


The act of being NEAR another model.


...is not limited by the rules at all.

We've already covered this.

And we've already pointed out why it's irrelevant since the skimmer emerging from the portal never has to be within 1" of the surrounding models.

It starts off the table, and moves over the models.



The FAQ does not say... the normal rules for movement apply. It says "The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply"


And the normal rules for proximity prevent you from moving within 1" of enemy models, not from being within 1"... and skimmers avoid the issue by flying over the models anyway.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/11 16:06:13


Post by: Ozymandias


God, this is still going?

Ozymandias, King of Kings


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/11 16:52:31


Post by: MagickalMemories


There are some "heavy hitters" from the boards on this thread and, to my surprise, none of them have addresses a certain point of Paid's analysis (of, if they did, O overlooked it)

Paid, you state, basically, that a model does not begin its movement until it's on the board.
Essentially, you said it arrives on the board, then starts its move. In the case of skimmers, they're not actually skimming until they are already on the board. That's what I got from the quote below:

paidinfull wrote:What you guys are missing is that there has to be a point on the table, be it the edge or not, that the model has to be before it can "move". A point of origin am I right? The model has to have a starting point so you can define the distance it's traveled or going to travel. We know this is the case as the SMF rule talks about not claiming you moved around and then back to the original spot saying "well I've moved 12" in a circle around these trees and ended right back where i started."

The model, in this case a skimmer that wishes to exit the WWP, has a starting point that is within 1" of an enemy at which time it is neither flying/hovering etc.(all of which are purely decorative and not applicable in game terms) nor is it moving, it is about to or "going to" move. You can't claim that you've started moving from off of the table as that "doesn't exist" in game terms and is also noted in the DE FAQ.

@stelek
so where is the model starting? i thought the edge of a table is part of the table? if I place a model 0.5" wouldn't that point(the table edge) be within 1" of an enemy model? How can you start from somewhere if you weren't there to begin with?

Would you say that you could place a skimmer 1" onto the table and claim that it moved 5"+ while off of the table so that you could get SMF?


How, then, do you presume that it arrived at this starting point on the table? It certainly didn't walk there. I doubt it was towed there, or the towing vehicle would be in front of it. They didn't push it... DE's are too weedy for that.
(All that was typed with tongue firmly planted in cheek. It was meant in good humor, not snarkiness)

Please explain, however, how it would get to the point you mention, if not via skimming. If you can presume that it did get to that point via skimming, please explain why you cannot presume it remained skimming.

Additionally, if a model must start at ground level, please explain how your interpretation of the rules affects flyers. If we can presume flyers fly onto the table, why can we not presume the same of skimmers?

Thanks.

Eric




Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/12 01:46:19


Post by: Tarval


First your not on the board to begin with so the whole flying over the enemy is out the window. Next you are using a device to enter play of which brings up another set of rules. All we know is this portal allows you to enter play so if I close the door then your ability to enter play is canceled.

If you want to play the odds game and risk everything, thats your call but the FAQ is RAW and any points are mute.



Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/12 11:58:56


Post by: insaniak


Tarval wrote:First your not on the board to begin with so the whole flying over the enemy is out the window.


Pardon?

That argument seems to be missing at least one important step.


All we know is this portal allows you to enter play so if I close the door then your ability to enter play is canceled.


Close the door?

Sorry, which rules are we talking about again...?



If you want to play the odds game and risk everything, thats your call but the FAQ is RAW and any points are mute.


Well, yes, the entire discussion is mute. I don't believe Yakface has installed the Written Post to Speech translator yet.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/12 21:56:42


Post by: Cruentus


Sorry, I'm not buying the argument. One of the lines of the FAQ states:

"Models move onto the table from the portal marker, measuring from its edge as they would if they entered the table normally"

So, what you're saying is that if I lined up Kroot from edge to edge of your deployment zone (if you had all your forces in reserve) nothing could come in from your board edge, because it was blocked. That is the implication, and I don't think it is supported.

There is nothing written in the rulebook to supercede this, and the FAQ, in context, speaks of "normal movement rules" to which the skimmer ability to move over units is an exception. There is nothing in the FAQ to indicate skimmers lose that ability.

Considering it is the DE codex, built around Raiders, if they intended Raiders to not be able to use it in that fashion, I'd hope they'd make that really clear (I'll keep hoping though).

Oh, and FWIW, in every GT, Tourny, game, etc that I've ever played in (with or against DE), players have used the Portal with Raiders, even if surrounded, and no one batted an eye. I can't imagine we've all got it wrong.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/12 22:34:12


Post by: Tarval


Well, yes, the entire discussion is mute. I don't believe Yakface has installed the Written Post to Speech translator yet.


Translator, what on earth would you need that for when you have RAW and FAQ.

The facts are that a Termy unit deep strikes and scatters on top of the enemy it dies. The rules for the WWP somewhat follow that line as it allows you to enter play from another location other than the standard play. So in all respects to enter play would be death because it falls outside of the standard play.

Odds game is that your putting your entire army in the portal so if I surround it then your out of luck.

Side note, 5th ed is really going to put a dent into the portal effect if you think about it. DE armies are going to find themselves hard pressed to show up via portal action with out it being protected.



Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/12 22:59:16


Post by: Stelek


Sure, let's think about it.

Not affected is my thought after playtesting.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/12 23:17:59


Post by: insaniak


Tarval wrote:Translator, what on earth would you need that for when you have RAW and FAQ.


Did they release an audio version of the rulebook when I wasn't looking?


The facts are that a Termy unit deep strikes and scatters on top of the enemy it dies. The rules for the WWP somewhat follow that line as it allows you to enter play from another location other than the standard play. So in all respects to enter play would be death because it falls outside of the standard play.


Sorry, but you still seem to be missing a point or two in there... The portal is nothing to do with Deep Strike. It doesn't use the rules for Deep Strike, it uses it's own rules, which simply use the Reserves rules and count the portal edge as a part of your table edge.

You don't place a model and then move when moving on from Reserves. You measure from your board edge, and then place the model. Surrounding the portal would therefore only have any effect on models that are forced to move normally, and so find their way blocked when they attempt to move from the portal.

Skimmers move over other models with impugnity. So until someone can explain why they would be unable to move over the models surrounding the portal just like they can move over any other model on the board, they are free to use the portal as normal.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/13 00:09:57


Post by: Tarval


Skimmers move over other models with impugnity. So until someone can explain why they would be unable to move over the models surrounding the portal just like they can move over any other model on the board, they are free to use the portal as normal.

insaniak


Simple as you can not end your movement with in 1" of a model thus you would be unable to start you movement because you are with in 1" of an enemy model. You do not enter play already moving but start play from the portal.

You have a door which ( places you on the board ), ( you do not start on the board moving but are placed onto the board ). You can not place yourself with in 1" of an enemy module just like termies when they DS.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/13 00:50:29


Post by: Stelek


Insaniak 1, Tarval 0.

Insaniak 1, Tarval 0.

Insaniak 1, Tarval 0.

Gee.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/13 01:06:21


Post by: Tarval


Stelek -241 vs Tarval - powned and blown out the water!

Placement of the module is the key quetion here. Can you in effect place A MODULE ( not skimmer or foot slogger ) with in 1" of another module. The answer is simple no you can not do this.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/13 01:33:10


Post by: insaniak


Tarval wrote:Simple as you can not end your movement with in 1" of a model thus you would be unable to start you movement because you are with in 1" of an enemy model.


Pardon?

How does being unable to end your move within 1" have any effect on starting your movement?


You do not enter play already moving but start play from the portal.


More specifically, you start your movement off the board, and move on from the portal edge. Off the board is not within 1" of a model, so even if some form of bizarro world logic means that starting your movement is the same thing as ending your movement, the placement of the enemy models will have no effect whatsoever on models that can move over them with impugnity.


You have a door which ( places you on the board ), ( you do not start on the board moving but are placed onto the board ).


This is incorrect. The Reserves rules do not require you to place the model before movement. You move on from the board edge... or in this case, from the edge of the portal, which counts as your board edge. The model is not placed on the board until the end of its movement.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/13 01:37:06


Post by: DaIronGob


What is a module? I can't find that referenced to anywhere in the rules.

This is incorrect. The Reserves rules do not require you to place the model before movement.


The WWP rules do appear to make this requirement. But the word "may" is used in the rules on pg 15 of the DE dex.

However I certainly would not and will not play it where the model(s) must be placed first since it really makes no difference.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/13 02:14:33


Post by: insaniak


DaIronGob wrote:The WWP rules do appear to make this requirement.


The WWP entry states that you place the model in the 'template'

The FAQ clarifies that you treat the WWP as an extension of your table edge... which, going by the current rules for Reserves, means that the model is not placed first, regardless of what the WWP rules entry says... it simply moves on from the portal in exactly the same way as it would move on from the table edge.



Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/13 02:31:33


Post by: Tarval


insaniak "The FAQ clarifies that you treat the WWP as an extension of your table edge... which, going by the current rules for Reserves, means that the model is not placed first, regardless of what the WWP rules entry says... it simply moves on from the portal in exactly the same way as it would move on from the table edge."


FAQ never said that you treat it but it more less gives you an understanding. Models move onto the table from the portal maker, measuring from its edge as they would if they entered the table normally.

Think of the portal marker is not an extension of your table edge

So your willing to use some of the text but not all of it?




Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/13 02:49:41


Post by: DaIronGob


Man I hate to be repetitive in a moot point but it says "on" the template not "in".

However it doesn't go on to finish what the unit can do once it has done so leading to the rest of the reserve rules.

why the point is moot IMO is that I agree that the skimmer can move onto the table moving over enemy troops as the NEWER rules allow. The new BBoR has a more specific rules point regarding skimmers than the WWP allows therefore the WWP rules are superceded in this case.

The WWP FAQ uses one rule to justify the "no use" and that's the 1" rule. The skimmer rules are more specific as to how they can move therefore they over ride or supercede the general rules in the WWP.

Skimmers CAN move OVER enemy troops. The WWP does not prevent this in any manner.



Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/13 03:09:21


Post by: Tarval


Think of it as is just that, they did not say it is but just think of it as.


As if they entered the board normally, normally being the key word because they are in fact not entering the board normally.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/13 03:23:38


Post by: DaIronGob


As if they entered the board normally, normally being the key word because they are in fact not entering the board normally


And per their rules skimmers can 'normally' move over enemy troops.

Hey the way you explain it makes a load of sense! They can normally move over enemy troops therefore they can normally move over enemy troops when entering the game through reserves!

Wow without you where'd we be in this redundant discussion?


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/13 03:39:45


Post by: Tarval


I would just look at the word Module and see if GW can change that word and then maybe you will have a reason to back your case. As it is now, FAQ/RAW tell you that you need to protect your portal in order to use it. If you fail then you have given up the device in which to further your armies movement.




Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/13 06:58:03


Post by: DaIronGob


I would just look at the word Module and see if GW can change that word and then maybe you will have a reason to back your case.


Ok I give up, WTH does the word Module have to do with this discussion and why would GW need to change it in order to "back" my case?

You must be mucking with us.. you must be doing this on purpose because I refuse to believe you really are that dumb to actually suggest that the word 'module' and it's definition makes a dang bit of difference in this discussion.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/14 08:39:42


Post by: Ozymandias


Don't feed the troll. Paidinfull was coherent in his arguments, Tarval just makes my head hurt.

Ozymandias, King of Kings


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/04/14 23:13:43


Post by: MinMax


DaIronGob wrote:
I would just look at the word Module and see if GW can change that word and then maybe you will have a reason to back your case.


Ok I give up, WTH does the word Module have to do with this discussion and why would GW need to change it in order to "back" my case?

You must be mucking with us.. you must be doing this on purpose because I refuse to believe you really are that dumb to actually suggest that the word 'module' and it's definition makes a dang bit of difference in this discussion.


He's trying to spell "model." Unfortunately it's clearly beyond his capacity.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/05/11 13:47:56


Post by: DeathGod


I'm not readin 4 pages of posts, so if this has been covered, ignore me...

Page 15 of the 40k MRB states "a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model (ignore wrecked vehicles) during the movement phase."

The rule clearly states "a model." Not "an infantry model." Not "a model except vehicles."

To be even more exact, the vehicle movement section on page 61 claims no exception for vehicles, either in the main 3 paragraphs for vehicle movement or the section dealing specifically with skimmers.

Not to be snippy or crass or plain rude, but I ask the same question every time a question with an easy answer comes up? Bone up on your literacy skills, can you not understand English as written? It is 100% clear. This is like the argument about whether stormboyz Waagh!, or if Tyranids with wings count as both jump packs and jump jets, getting the benefits of both? The Waagh! rule clearly states it affects infantry, and the Tyranid wings biomorph clearly states they count as jump infantry. The rules are there, all you need are basic literacy skills.


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/05/11 14:55:45


Post by: tegeus-Cromis


I'm not readin 4 pages of posts, so if this has been covered, ignore me...


/ignores you


Dark Eldar WWP @ 2008/05/11 21:54:42


Post by: DeathGod




or is that: