I will preface this thread by stating I have read the other threads that rapidly deteriorate into "I am the best gamer/this army is worthless", please DO NOT bring that here.

I am very interested in playing a new demon army. I really like the minis (well, I am getting used to the new Daemonettes) and the freedom to paint them any way I choose. I am a relatively competative player and would like to build an army or two that can hold it's own on a table against most opponents (note that I did not say would beat every opponent). Since the new 'dex is available for review at your local GW store, what have you all seen that would be fun and competative?

I have already started painting Tzeentch (see this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210658.page ) and was leaning toward adding Khorne as a secondary power to add some punch in HTH. My list was looking something like this:

LoC
Bloodthirster
9 Horrors + Changeling
9 Horrors + Icon
9 Horrors + Icon
9 Horrors
8 Bloodletters
8 Bloodletters
3 Demon Princes

I picked up this months issue of WD and got a look at the Bloodcrusher model and that looks sweet! Maybe add a small unit of those and a Tzeentch Flamer unit to round off. What about the screamers for tank hunting?

Anyone have any constructive comments or suggestions?

Thanks

I've been lucky enough to have the codex already (don't ask how!) and there are plenty of options to make us quite competitive.

Defo the screamers for tank hunting. They are jetbikes armed with melta bombs. There stats are pretty much useless for anything else!

I also think Tzeentch GD's are going to be common and powerful. With MC's being able to fire two weapons and Tzeentch able to purchase master of sorcery (being able to use an extra shooting ability), three shooting will be extremely powerful especially when they have the We are legion gift (Can shoot at different targets).

Ppl say that the list doesn't have anti armour, but if you're clever with your lists I don't think it'll be too problematic. Use also can get breath of chaos, a template weapon which on a 4+ causes automatic glacing on a vehicle. Get lucky with a 6 you never know!

Jimbo, what options are there for anti-tank (assuming V5 here and that rending is effectively nerfed in a big way).

*defiler
*MC with a big stick
*screamer (what do they do?)
*what else?


I’ve been thinking of a force weighted towards Khorne with bloodletters and demonettes, with a Khorne GD, two defilers, and two heralds (Khorne and Tzeentch). Nurglings to soak up fire or harass enemy units as suiciders, whilst dropping in. I cannot be more definitive as I do not have the codex yet and only glanced so far.

Jfrazell, I've not got a copy of the codex on me at the mo so I will tell you stuff that I know for sure.

With the soulgrinder it does have the option of a S10 AP1 weapon (vomit) but the problem with it is the soul grinder is HUGE! Pie plates are just gonna love and own it!
Screamers just have warp jaws (melta bombs) and they don't have any special weapons apart from that. The bonus is it acts as a jetbike. Assault wise I wouldn't take them, too many better options.

Other ideas for any armour come from the HQ MC's. Most are strength 7 and with wings you should be able to catch up with most vehicles (2D6+7 = dead tank!). Also bolt of change gift (S8 AP1) on a lot of squads and daemon princes should bring all but the heavest armour down. Breath of chaos should help too if close enough.

You're right with Nurgle. If you deepstrike them close enough with large numbers they should take some of the heat of other models. If you're really feeling mean put a GUO near the lines with the p'bearers. Especially the special character GUO. He's just mean with 6 wounds and template carnage!

Coolio.

Of course, depending on how rending finally comes out that may stikll be a decent option as well.

May look into screamers. Are they effective against MCs/troops?

Doesn't look like it. Just anything with an AV. Might be really good to grab an objective/ table quarter with a last minute turbo boost!

Maybe for a couple of months, jimbo.

I think Bolt of Tz is going to be the best bet for AT, I'm going to try non winged DP's with it and min sized horror groups with it.

Screams aren't all that expensive, so if you have a free FA slot, they aren't bad having as a suicide unit or to go tank hunting against slower Imperial stuff. They just don't have much of a shot against skimmers.

The force I am working on so far, for a 2000 point RTT in May is roughly GUO, KoS, 8 x Bloodletters w/ Icon, 8 x Bloodletters w/Icon, 15 Daemonetttes w/ Icon, 5 x Horrors with Bolt of Tz, 5 x Horrors w/ Bolt of Tz, 7 Plaguebearers w/ Icon, 5 x Seekers, 10 x Fleshhounds, 2 x Fiends, 2 x Bloodcrushers, Soul grinder w/ Phlegm, DP w/ Mark of Tz and bolt of Tz.

Even if you are upgrading your princes with strength, they are still a poor choice. You get an expensive unit that can't do a whole lot of damage to infantry or tanks due to limited attacks/strength. I think you'd be better off with at least one soul grinder. Or like you were saying some blood crushers instead. Being T5, the DP is exceedingly easy to kill.

I do not know the points right now and can't get to the book for a while, however I like the idea of combining the two daemon (Tzeentch and Khorne) more integrally than just Tzeentch + Bloodthirster as the fluff suggests.

I would consider 10-man Bloodletter units with one having an Icon.

I would consider having the DP's walk, but give them armor and maybe a decent shooting power. I think the Soulgrinder is a better choice from a powergamer standpoint.

It appears Tzeentch is in group one and Khorne is in group two. I like the idea of giving one unit of Bloodletters an icon in group two just in case you roll low and Khorne has to come in first.

The Bloodcrusher models do look cool and their stats aren't to bad for the points. I would pick up some just to have and see later if you want to start including them in your lists.

I think Tzeench is going to be an important part of any daemon army. The ability of Warpfire and Bolt of Change is too good to pass up! The elite Flamers also all have breath of chaos (template, wound on a 4+, no armour and cover saves) and are jump infantry.I can see these being really powerful if they can survive DS, being able to clear large chunks of troops. If backed up with daemonettes or seekers to help with assaults, it will be nasty! I think the secret of this army is support.

jimbo the grey wrote:I think the secret of this army is support.

It doesn't seem that way at first. But my findings are the same. I am designing a list with 5th edition in mind, and i focused on multiple very large troop units. Facing down an ork horde with almost non-existent support was next to impossible, the combination of shooting and charging with a 250 point ork unit was too much for anything to handle even 27 wounds of nurglings. Units got smaller on my end, and more output is being added. This weekend can't come fast enough. i'm ready for another round of playtest games, and I'll be cutting points in troops for things that can actually kill things on the turn they land. flamers/horrors/possibly even soulgrinders. demonettes are still in though. they are excellent.

WHat are thoughts on maxing the soulgrinders? Do they last a turn?

Soulgrinders last against armies without excellent anti-tank.

So Tau, Eldar with TL BL or WL BL (uncommon enough), and most Imperial forces with lascannons can handle soulgrinders.

Orks can't kill them in shooting very easily, but they can take them out in CC, so against Orks alot of people run their grinders at max range and use them for crowd control.

That was one question I had as well - to choose the Soulgrinders or the DPs?

DPs:
Decent mobility with wings
Multi-wound so as to not die to single lascannon fire
Decent HTH (with a 4++ save - is it 3++ for Tzeentch?)
Access to some shooting
Not as large as a SG

SGs:
Fleet is nice (better if rumored fleet/assault in 5th)
AV 13 is not bad (4 to glance and most of table is ignored?)
Access to shooting
Fewer attacks in HTH - susseptable to hiden powerfist
Very large for deep strike


The more I think about it, I like the added HTH units of Bloodletters and Crushers. I am still thinking oldschool trying to stay with one power, this book just isn't designed to work this way.

Is it better to fill the FOC with many small units (2 Crushers, 3 Flamers, 6 Horrors, etc..) or get some larger tarpit type units like nurglings or run fewer but larger demon units? The game is going more objective based and scoring units will count until there is nobody left.

What about the 5 MC list? Is that too many? Could I get away with 4?

I played a game at Adepticon against a chaos player running a DP and a Lord on bike (I played Ultramarines) I managed to take down the DP, but his lord took out half (or more) of my forces. It seems that if you could get even one of the GDs or DPs into the opponents lines they start causing issues that are difficult to combat. Trick is getting them in the lines. Using multiple threats may give your opponent too many things to eliminate before this happens.

Zero_Cool wrote:Using multiple threats may give your opponent too many things to eliminate before this happens.

Exactly.

Unlike a CSM force, which can put down alot of 'needs heavy weapon fire' stuff on the board...a Demon force doesn't since they are split in half.

Trying to 'go big' with 5 MC in one half and demons in the other...will cost you alot of games as even with 2 greater demons and 3 soulgrinders coming down; the soulgrinders will eat the heavy weapons fire and the greater demons will eat everything else. If you try and deploy further back, you'll still eat alot of fire and you'd better get a good drop from your reserve demons on turn 2 or you're going to give away a couple units a turn and lose very badly.

Question to keep in mind: Why waste lascannon fire on the regular demons? Unlike Obliterators, you can't instant kill any of them, so just putting normal shots into them is required. So you can quite easily focus your fire where needed, as there are no real units you cannot hurt in the list with any weapon--only Soulgrinders really fit that category. Charging them into combat isn't something I'd recommend. IC's will just power fist you to death.

The only real 'hard nuts' in a demon army are plague bearers, and what happens to plague bearers if there are dreadnoughts around? Yes, it's not pretty. Unlike 4th, which has killed off most non-drop pod dreads; 5th will see more armies with them. It's not uncommon to have a 4th edition balanced army with 3 lascannons in it; and when your one shot at taking out a land raider gets cover saved...you'll realize it's a whole new way of thinking. Mostly new, anyway.

Stelek wrote:Question to keep in mind: Why waste lascannon fire on the regular demons? Unlike Obliterators, you can't instant kill any of them, so just putting normal shots into them is required. So you can quite easily focus your fire where needed, as there are no real units you cannot hurt in the list with any weapon--only Soulgrinders really fit that category. Charging them into combat isn't something I'd recommend. IC's will just power fist you to death.

That was my thought in regard to the Soul Grinders - they are really the only "tank" type unit in the list so any/every anti-tank weapon in the opponents army will be ready to go at it. Without an invulnerable save these can go down with one shot where as a DP has multiple wounds and an Inv save.

However, no armor eliminates my opponents need to choose either shooting the heavy weapon the unit is carrying at the tank or fire the whole unit at a squad of demons.

But if my opponent is shooting the heavy at the SG, he is not shooting at the demons. Toss up?

You want Soulgrinders in your army rather then DP.

The reason why is that you want the threat of the big pie plate to get your opponent to spread out. If they pack into a corner in standard anti-deep striking formation they will be hard to dig out, and they can apply all of there fire power against you.

If you get them to spread out it will greatly diminish their return fire power.

I agree with Blackmoor, mostly.

I still plan on at least 1 DP in my army over 1000 points, but I will definitely take a Soulgrinder before a DP and if I take 3 Heavy supports, it's going to be 2 SG and 1 DP.

Pie plate makes your opp suffer for castling up, which is nice to be able to do since the army has to come in deepstriking. However, I do like a DP with either mark of Tz or Mark of Nurgle to take on those hordes of boyz. DP is going to last longer in CC against a PK/Pfist than a Soulgrinder, with mark of Tz you get a bonus anti-armor weapon with bolt, with nurgle you can get the gift (I believe ) that does a str 2 hit to all enemies within 6", which against a horde, is damn nice.

Soulgrinder is better overall than the DP and definitely worth taking, but hey, I like my DP's.

Blackmoor wrote:You want Soulgrinders in your army rather then DP.

The reason why is that you want the threat of the big pie plate to get your opponent to spread out. If they pack into a corner in standard anti-deep striking formation they will be hard to dig out, and they can apply all of there fire power against you.

If you get them to spread out it will greatly diminish their return fire power.

Also, do you feel that you definitely don't want any DP at all in a demons army? I feel like the argument of which of the two is better is a bit pointless without putting them in the context of an actual army list. Are you saying you would never want to field a DP? I haven't seen the unit costs yet, but I'm somewhat doubtful that it's a simple auto include 3x SG into a "competitive" list.

I think if you can use your list to limit the amount of fire directed towards your soulgrinders, then they can have a much bigger impact.

Also, what do people think is a good unit size for the different troops choices? This question obviously hinges upon how you split your force. It seems to me that you would want to have your most survivable units drop down first, which should hopefully enable your more fragile stuff to do what it needs to when it comes in. I think a very interest option for the split is to have half of your units be very cheap points wise, while having a few large, resilient units coming in on your turn one.

For example, heralds on disks and screamers or flamers(min sized), could take up half of your 'units', while large plaguebearer, bloodcrusher, or virtually anything else you want takes up the other half. This way you aren't actually fighting half your army against all of theirs, it's more of two thirds against an entire army.

I find this a much better strategy than trying to split your army evenly. If you get the wrong half of your army, just make certain the other half is mobile enough to hide until the heavy hitters show up, and then engage.

Sadly, what some people believe is a good use of soulgrinder is in fact not why you'd use them. Against demons, you do not, in fact, want to castle tightly.

You want to spread out and fill your entire deployment zone, and if you've got infiltrators, fill out from your deployment zone as much as possible.

Sitting in a box in the corner is stupid. You need to minimize the area the demons can drop, and maximize your own space to retreat into.

This means of course being spread out to maximum dispersion, so the flamers and the soulgrinders don't hurt nearly so bad as they could; and are in effect negated.

Putting your troops first with their transports in the rear, with a clear movement path for them to embark; allows you to fill a very large space and then vacate it. Putting an extra 12" between you and where the demons dropped can often delay their turn 2 assault to turn 3.

I guess you'll just have to see for yourselves.

Have played one game with them. Stand outs were:
Nurglings - fantastic just tie units up and so hard to kill with no ID.
Soul grinder - very hard to kill (had several oblits sniping for 3 turns).
Bloodcrushers - very hard to kill and monsters in combat.
Khorne is what I will be building an army around.

Does anyone else think that the icons are just way to expensive?
Also don't bloodcrushers seem overpriced compared to say 2 bloodletters?

I had forgot about the Nurglings Immunity to ID when I read the book.

Played a half dozen games this weekend. Had to scrap my initial list pretty quickly. This is what I went to next.. It is really powerful.

bloodthirster with plasma pistol and +1 strength

keeper of secrets with hit and run and mini-lash

3x flamers

3x flamers

10x plaguebearers with icon

10x plaguebearers with icon

6x nurglings

5x nurglings

3x1 demon prince mark of tzeentch multi-melta multi-tracker ap3 heavy bolter

(sorry for the analogous upgrade descriptions but not enough people know what the demonic gifts do yet)

I was usually making my DMA (demonic assault, will that acronym stick?) the 5 MCs and a flamer. When I got it, I'd drop the greater demons around 12ish inches away from the enemy, the princes tried to land more like 15-18". The princes would target transports as a priority, especially when i got first turn and skimmers had no 5+. If I fail my DMA, I'd drop the plaguebearers and nurglings a bit further back, and run them. Depending on what my opponents gameplan was, I just got the nurgle stuff over to objectives, which I made sure to place in terrain...

blah blah blah, I'm getting a little too detailed, basically, you can't shoot nurglings if they are in terrain. In 5th edition, they will get to an objective thats in cover, then 'take cover' for a 2+ cover save. The plague bearers will do the same for a 3+ cover followed by a FNP. You chill out score what you can and DS your MCs onto your icons, get them in a position to charge scoring units/kill transports, and slow-play.

To the OP. I like your HQ, Depending on how you gift out your princes i like your heavy support. You may find that the bloodletters have a difficult time not getting shot up before they can do any real damage. Horrors help your game against orks, but plagebearers also do very well against orks. I think if you are going to go that heavy into horrors you may want your LOC to be fateweaver. That'll make your horrors a real PITA to kill off.

I ordered my codex today from the war store. Should be here in a day or 2. Playing csm in a big apocalypse Saturday and I'm psyched to get my daemons back! Question is: are csm or daemon codex dps better? Do I run 2 10 man bloodletter squads or 1 big 20 man squad? Gonna be running 3000 points of csm and have a bloodthirster and 20 bloodletters from the glory days of the last codex.

CSM DPs are much better. Fact.

Indeed. With CSM my winged DP is somewhere around 170 pts. With Daemons my tooled-up winged Slaanesh DP is like 285 pts. He dies to shooting just as easily, and with the 1st half/2nd half thing as well as DS it can be hard to get him where you want.

For their points I'd say Soul Grinders are the superior choice.

I had originally thought to run the 3 DPs with MoTz and wings for 165 points each. Wings are just flat out pricey for what they do though. I think I would save the extra 180 points and give them a shooting attack and spend more points on an additional unit of demons

Has anyone (ok, I know Stelek has) tried a demon horde list? No MCs and lots and lots of troop type units. How does that one fair?

From what I have seen with the new Demon army you should have a lot of scoring units. Run as manny DP and GD as you can and then run Demonettes and other little things. Basically have a lot of scoring units that can move really fast. You get deepstike on first turn and you don't really know which half of your army is coming in. You can't immediattly assault so you have to rely on survivability. The more units you run the more you can survive. After the first shooting phase your stuff comes in regular deepstike. I wouldn't worry about icons seeing as in 5th deepstikeing will become a lot safer then it is now. Also I would take plaugebears they just move to slow and aren't that great in hand to hand. The only will ever have one attack because they are slow and purposeful. I think that if you have enough stuff you can really kick some peoples ass.

I said the demon horde supported by heralds was quite the danger. Alot of armies just can't kill enough.

Friendly armies in particular.

Tournament armies, however, can deal with the horde.

I know Tegeus was just answering a direct question and he is definitely not wrong, but comparisons from the CSM codex to the CD codex are apples and oranges. If you try to make a CSM prince in the CD book, you end up with the exact same thing, and you pay like 80 more points for it. Taken out of context that seems ridiculous.

A couple demon prince tips, from play experience... don't buy wings. i don't care how fast they make you go.... 60 points for wings is lol. Taking 3 princes and buying wings for all of them costs 180 points! If you aren't going to buy them wings, and you want them to do something, make them shooty. i love this setup...

demon prince 80 mark of tzeentch 25 bolt of tzeentch 35 master of sorcery 10 gaze of chaos 20

You've skimped on iron hide and wings, and saved 90 points in doing so. Your range is only 24" but you deep strike, range isn't an issue (unless it is extremely short). You have 4 BS5 shots all of them at least ap3. one shot is an excellent medium vehicle killer. The chaos marine demon prince is better in a vacuum, but the chaos demon's demon prince brings quality sturdy shooting to a list that really needs it.

I've played games with the soulgrinder. The pie is better than bs5 gaze of chaos, but the tongue is terrible. The lack of quality cover saves in 4th edition has made a lot of epople overvalue this thing i think. Pie is still good in 5th, but 4+ cover is everywhere. And they fall over and die against too many armies. Sure orks hate them, but eldar and dark eldar with lances, anyone with 6 lascannons will blow them away too quickly, Sniperfexes will knock off the maw cannon and/or immobilize it.

I tried an 84 model "horde" Zero_Cool, for 3 games. Problem is that 84 models is not a horde, and 42 models is DEFINITELY not a horde. I struggled right away. the problem was, my opponent wouldn't completely wipe out a unit, he'd take a horror unit down to 4 or a demonette unit down to 3 models and move on. Under 5th edition rules, 3 demonettes just aren't a threat. he just ignored them and shot up my bloodletters completely. Horde demons also are woefully unequipped to deal with vehicle walls. No one can fly over, and none of them can consistently pop a vehicle from range. the ones that can do something consistent to vehicles seem to be priority number 1 for shooting. So they rend a chimera, take a strength 3 hit on all their models and lose even more casualties.

My final advice would be contrary to what a lot of people are advocating... My advice (even for 5th edition) is do not rely on your troops choices for your damage output. They are universally slow and easy to kill. I know bloodletters look good and demonettes look good, etc. the problem with demonettes is that every T3 wound they fail to save costs them 4 precious rending attacks, its way too easy to reduce their effectiveness with piddly shooting. Like storm bolters on rhinos or long range bolter fire. An opponent who is good at math and good at 40k can just pick away at a unit until its lost its explosiveness and then let it live, and move on. 3 demonettes charging a 5 man combat squad don't win big, if they even win at all. you think they'll beat genestealers or gaunt hordes or chem-inhaler guard? The bonus of a monstrous creature is that they don't lose any of their effectiveness until their last wound is gone. I know thats common sense, but the last game I dropped my MCs in front of a shooty marine army. they shot their lascannons i made a reasonable amount of invulnerable saves, I shot preemptively with my demon princes, and I lost a total of 3 MC wounds. When i went on turn 2, it was at 100% speed and effectiveness.

Fortunately, for scoring units, you've got awesome choices. i mentioned this before, but deep striking nurglings into cover is horrifyingly obnoxious for your opponent. Take some dangerous terrain tests, then take cover all game. they'll have to charge you to actually kill you, and that means they'll have to run TOWARDS your shooty demon princes. Plaguebearers aren't in the list to kill people, they do two things very well, and that makes them important. take cover on an objective, and tie up shoota boys for a few turns.

the demon princes might not really stand out at first. but the first time you face a DE raider list, or eldar mech, you'll be looking for that BS5.

Just a quick note: the poster I was responding to was talking about using CSMs and Daemons in an Apoc game, so they're directly comparable in this specific case. But yes, there's little use comparing the two ordinarily.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Just a quick note: the poster I was responding to was talking about using CSMs and Daemons in an Apoc game, so they're directly comparable in this specific case. But yes, there's little use comparing the two ordinarily.

woops, yep, thats apples to apples then.

the only thing I can think of is against eldar runes of warding , or leadership 10 psychic hoods. Demons "powers" are guns that roll to hit and don't trigger "psychic defenses", if anyone didn't already know that.

Nurglings have a problem--they are swarms and don't take objectives. Since they don't shoot, it's not like they are rangers or anything. They're not something I worry about unless they're in my way.

If your T5 3+ save DP's lived in front of a shooty marine army, I must ask how shooty it actually was.

Stelek wrote:Nurglings have a problem--they are swarms and don't take objectives. Since they don't shoot, it's not like they are rangers or anything. They're not something I worry about unless they're in my way.

If your T5 3+ save DP's lived in front of a shooty marine army, I must ask how shooty it actually was.

Neither the swarms section or the mission of objectives section of the 5th edition PDF that i have been playing with say anything about swarms and scoring.

the swarms section says they have vulnerable to blasts and stealth, and the mission objectives section says "any non-vehicle troops choice"

My demon princes survived because they had a bloodthirster and a keeper of secrets in charge range of their big important scoring unit, they were the ones taking the shots. my demon princes don't have iron hide, they have 4+ invulnerables. On the turn i hit, I dropped a thirster and keeper of secrets within 15" of their main line, i dropped three demon princes about 20" away from their lines and they took out a rhino and then took out a combat squad that was suddenly in LOS thanks to the ap1 bolt of tzeentch exploding the rhino, i also took out 7 devastators when the flamers dropped right on top of them.

So my turn 1 was 1 rhino gone. 4 of 5 combat squad killed (the plascannon died) and 7 devastators (3 of them lascannons) i killed one extra marine with the explosion of the rhino. And I pavaned a big unit through difficult terrain to push them further back from the demon princes (now more than 24" away).

As you can see i didn't just "land and stand there". Which is a picture that gets painted of demon armies before some one plays against a good one.

On the marine players turn, he still had 5 lascannons, a plasma cannon, a whirlwind, tons of plasma guns, and bolters to fire. But he chose not to ignore the bloodthirster and the keeper. in addition to putting 3 wounds on the bloodthirster he also used his small arms fire to kill off the 3 flamers. Clearly they are one of the most devastating units to have drop in your lap, and with T4 and a 4+ invulnerable save, they can be slightly more obnoxious to get rid of than one might think.

The latest revision says 'infantry'. They aren't infantry, which in GW land also rules out 'jetbike infantry' and 'jump infantry' as non-scoring 'troops'.

The fact that you flamed devs speaks volumes, sadly.

Stelek wrote:The latest revision says 'infantry'. They aren't infantry, which in GW land also rules out 'jetbike infantry' and 'jump infantry' as non-scoring 'troops'.

The fact that you flamed devs speaks volumes, sadly.

Well, that would change things immensely. making plaguebearers even better, and less fast moving scoring units for me to worry about. doesn't change anything structurally about my list. And I haven't seen that version.

The fact that i flamed devs apparently doesn't speak volumes. I was not aiming for them, I was aiming for a scoring unit. Perhaps you failed to remember that sometimes deep striking units scatter. The 3 man flamer unit actually did scatter 7" laterally away from a tactical combat squad. By pointing my templates the other way I was able to cover a large amount of devs. i was out of range of 'scoring units' after the scatter.

Either way, I'm sorry to have saddened you. Usually you and I are a bit more upbeat in our discourse.

Ok, I was thinking about this the other day. If a demon player maxed out on nothing but nurglings, how on earth could he lose an objective mission?

Nurglings aren't infantry.

TC: It might not matter if the 5th Edition rules end up saying something along the lines of "non-vehicle Troops are scoring units."

ExtrenM(54): He could lose because Nurglings generally stink, IIRC. You can't use them to advance reliably against your enemy and almost every shoot that sneaks through the save would destroy one outright.

Ummm, my Daemon Codex says this about Nurglings:

"Unit Type: Infantry. Special Rules: Daemon, Swarm."

Does the Swarm special rule somehow make them not infantry?

Ninja is right! My bad.

N1NJ4 wrote:Ummm, my Daemon Codex says this about Nurglings:

"Unit Type: Infantry. Special Rules: Daemon, Swarm."

Does the Swarm special rule somehow make them not infantry?

Hmmmmm ...I am dusting off my 20 painted, based, and lonely Nurglings right this moment.

I have seen nothing to indicate that you can't have a unit be infantry AND a swarm.

Edit: 3 wounds, immune to instant death with an easy 2+ cover save under 5th ed rules the nurglings are looking much better than they did when I first read through the book yesterday.

PanzerLeader wrote:TC: It might not matter if the 5th Edition rules end up saying something along the lines of "non-vehicle Troops are scoring units."

ExtrenM(54): He could lose because Nurglings generally stink, IIRC. You can't use them to advance reliably against your enemy and almost every shoot that sneaks through the save would destroy one outright.

All daemons are immune to instant death, so they're gonna be annoying as hell. It would seem that they would be pretty hard to dislodge off of an objective.

You can be 'infantry'. If you are anything in addition to that, you don't score.

So 'swarm infantry', 'jump infantry', do not score.

Only 'infantry'.

Shep:

I meant if you were able to deepstrike next to devs, your opponent played into your hands and I don't think very much of the games results. A proper anti-deep strike formation should protect strong assets, and prevent you from flaming tons of guys dead. That didn't occur. That is a huge mistake on the part of your opponent. When that gets corrected, and your demons don't do very well...what then? Back to the shelf? People aren't buying the army in large numbers for a reason--it's obvious it's contrived, it doesn't feel right for 40k, and it had serious power imbalances against so many armies it's not funny.

Stelek wrote:You can be 'infantry'. If you are anything in addition to that, you don't score.

So 'swarm infantry', 'jump infantry', do not score.

Only 'infantry'.

If that is the case then nothing in the army scores. All of the infantry is at bare minimum daemon infantry, or in the case of nurglings demon, swarm, infantry.

However, I don't think that is the case. If you look at the nurgling entry in the book, and I quote, they are "unit type: infantry ...special rules: Daemon, Swarm." They are not unit type: infantry, swarm. The only way I could see this being different is if something has been added to the swarm rule in the 5th edition book to say that they never score even if they are infantry. As it stands under the 4th edition rules there is nothing to prohibit swarms from scoring. Many of the books have specific rules stating that their swarms don't score (such as the Tyranid book and the old Chaos Marines book) but there is no such exception in the Chaos Daemons book. What really convinces me here is that swarm is not listed under the unit type but under a separate heading which indicates that it has no bearing on the unit type just as daemon has no bearing on the unit type for scoring purposes.

Keep in mind that other "special rules" in the book are fleet, furious charge, slow and purposeful, and feel no pain. I don't see any reason why these would keep an infantry model from scoring so why would swarm?

I hate to double post but I want to clarify something.

I actually do agree with you, Stelek, that jump infantry do not score under what 5th ed. rules I have seen. They are actually listed as "Unit Type: Jump Infantry". If the nurglings were listed similarly I would agree there as well. However, they are listed as "Unit Type: Inantry" so as best I can tell they are a scoring unit.

Demon is a classification for the army special rule.

Like Space Marines and Adepta Sororitas.

Plaguebearers, Demonettes, Bloodletters...these are all infantry as defined by their entry.

Nurglings are swarms, and don't score. (In 5th edition.)

If you think I'm talking about 4th edition in any way, please consider yourself corrected. I don't care how weak, powerful, broken, or misunderstood a unit/army is in 4th edition. In a couple months it'll all be moot.

Stelek, your conclusion (based on the rumours you mention) is correct, but your earlier argument is wrong. It isn't that

You can be 'infantry'. If you are anything in addition to that, you don't score.

So 'swarm infantry', 'jump infantry', do not score.

but that units with the Swarm rule are specifically designated as non-scoring. It's different from the case of Jump Infantry, who are not "Infantry" at all.

Actually 'jump and bike/jetbike' infantry will be infantry.

Not rumor, fact.

I don't base my statements on rumors, TC.

So basically, "Swarm" will be redefined as part of the units type, not just a special rule? Say so, then.

I don't care what you call them. I don't use the term "rumours" in a pejorative way--all I mean is "claims that have not been publicly substantiated." I can't help but notice, though, that you have supposedly always based your statements on facts, not rumours, yet you are making different statements now than you were a couple months back. :S

So if nurglings aren't scoring that changes my plans a little.

Here is my nw 1850 list for daemons.

Lord of change- breath of chaos 280 (1)

The Masque 100 (1)

3 flamers 105 (2)

3 flamers 105 (2)

8 plauge bearers 120 (1)

8 plauge bearers 120 (1)

6 horrors 102 (2)

6 horrors 102 (2)

6 daemonettes 84 (2)

6 daemonettes 84 (2)

6 seekers of slaneesh 102 (2)

Soul Grinders phlegm 160 (1)

Soul Grinder 160 (1)

daemon prince wings slannesh Pavane of slannesh breath of chaos 210 (1)

The basic plan is to have the big stuff come in 1st (hopefully) and mini lash everything together for the grinders to eat, while the plauge bearers hold the line. Then everything comes in and runs a muck with the seekers used as an anchor.

What do you think?

I don't recall saying swarms would ever be scoring troops since they have been non-scoring pretty much since the beginning of 5th...

I do try and limit what I say to what is publicly leaked by others so nothing ill befalls me in the warp. I'm not Bell of GW Propaganda with a Free Pass, after all. Many times this means speaking as if the old way is the new way because the new way isn't public yet.

Hopefully you understand the need for a bit of deception.

When I say the demon codex is pathetic, do you believe me now that you can see it for yourself?

Yes, it kills marines. So does every other non-marine army. It does not do well against non-marine armies.

Jumpinfantry, beast, monstrus creature, cavalry, vehicle, jetbike and infantry are defined by the unit type entry in the codex.

There is nothing about swarms or any other special rule changing that.

Stelek wrote:Demon is a classification for the army special rule.

Like Space Marines and Adepta Sororitas.

Plaguebearers, Demonettes, Bloodletters...these are all infantry as defined by their entry.

Nurglings are swarms, and don't score. (In 5th edition.)

If you think I'm talking about 4th edition in any way, please consider yourself corrected. I don't care how weak, powerful, broken, or misunderstood a unit/army is in 4th edition. In a couple months it'll all be moot.

Can you quote me where you are getting this from? Unless there is something in the 5th ed rules stating that swarms make a unit either not infantry or not scoring then I see no reason to think that they would be treated as anything but what their unit type is ...infantry. "Swarm" is not a unit type and is not listed under unit type.

Edit: In the 5th ed. PDF I have it just says that units that come from the troops allowance are scoring unless they have a special rule that states otherwise (paraphrase). I'm not saying that you don't necessarily a different or even final version of the rules in front of you I'm just wondering what it is in that version that would make the nurglings non-scoring because in the version I have they absolutely are scoring.

The game rules have advanced beyond what you have.

Stelek wrote:The game rules have advanced beyond what you have.

Constructive and not trolly at all, as usual.

Let's be clear. Even if Nurglings are non-scoring in the super-secret version of next editions rulebook Stelek claims to have pulled out of his time machine, they are still an amazing troop choice. So they don't score, big whoop. Doesn't mean they still don't devour anything non-vehicle they can get their tiny plague-covered claws on. Enemy troops eaten by Nurglings or simply held in place by Nurglings and then charged by Slaaneshi/Khorne troops don't score either. You can hardly go wrong with a few units of Nurglings dropped near any enemy infantry. You can spare the ~200 points it takes to grab 2 units of 7 bases, right? Think of them like IG plasma death droppers, they will be dead by game's end, but their impact is entirely disproportionate to their cost.

Wait, a leaked PDF from a year ago--you think it hasn't changed since then? I need a time machine? Two tools for the price of one.

Nurglings are 'great'? How? Explain it to me.

21 T3 wounds with a 5+ invulnerable save.

They don't block LOS. They don't even give cover saves really, because they're so low.

So I can shoot your other troops dead, and then kill the nurglings as I see fit because they're utterly useless at doing anything.

I laughed at nurglings in the old chaos codex and they were BETTER than these except of course for the instant death thing being negated. Big woop. I put a template or a blast on you, and instead of getting 3 wounds with a battle cannon I get 2?

Gee, huge difference. Nurglings are what I like to call uber close combat blockers. Know how I like to ignore them? Toss a character into them, let them surround him. Either he'll die or they will, but odds are he'll tie them up while my troops gun down your other troops.

Then what? Oh right, kill the stupid nurglings because they do in fact suck and their impact IS entirely disproportionate to their cost. If they cost less than they do now, they'd be decent as throw away troops.

Spend 10% of my army points on such crap units? Please.

My EC can eradicate them in ONE turn. How good is such a unit...when it dies in one turn? There are so many ways to deal with them it's not funny. Tank shock nurglings away from your lines. Hit them with a kannon battery on frag mode and watch them disintegrate. Use anything with bolters and they die. Close combat troops chew them to pieces, if you wanna bother. Flamers of any sort? Immolators are hilarious. One shot, one kill.

You can't really believe these units are any good against someone castled up properly to stop your deep strike. It's not like I'm going to be surprised by your list in 5th, ya know. Wow Nurglings, heralds or GDs, some fast stuff, bloodletters/demonettes, and soulcrap or DP's of take it in the ass from everyone. Wait, wait...really? Say it ain't so, charlie....say the army isn't predictable and easy to pick apart.

I pray for the ability to get FIVE demon armies at LV, but I know it won't happen because there won't be a demon army in the top twenty after day one.

You know it too, in your heart.

I agree with Nurglings, I will be picking some up as they are a great tarpit unit. 3 wounds with a 5+ inv save for 13 points? Sounds good to me. If they cannot score, 1 unit of them is still quite helpful to have, and if they do score, well damn, put them in.

From my experience, seekers and flamers have the best chance of doing mass damage. Flamers are great as either a 3 strong suicide unit (I usually just drop them close and hope for the scatter, fortune favors the bold) or in 4's or 5's and used as a sneak attack when they have an Icon to latch on to. A flame template that always wounds on a 4+ and allows only inv saves is just sick. Add in they are jump troops and it's good times.
Seekers can put out so much rendy goodness it's insane. Again, in 5th they'll be a little more believable but still, they are gold.

From my experience, Soulgrinders do not earn back their points at all. Perhaps against a horde army like Ork or Nid, as they are the only big blast weapon in the list besides the named GUO, or against Necrons where you need a str 10 AP 1 weapon and lots of them, but so far, I was not impressed.

Daemonettes need to be in large groups to survive and will not win a war of attrition, anything that survives the charge (and with the new kill zone rule changes, this is even more true) will wear them down quick. T3 and a 5+ save? They are guardsmen in terms of surviving attacks back.

Bloodletters are the best troop choice in my opinion, in terms of winning back points, as they will rip apart many many things and they are cheap enough to take a decent amount.

Anyway, those are some general thoughts from my 8 games with the codex, I may be totally wrong but it's what I've seen so far.

Let's not forget about the second half of this threads title - PLAY NICE.


So, what do we have so far?

HQ: Either 2 GDs or 4 Heralds or a combination? Any of the named GDs or Heralds worthwhile for their points cost?

EL: Fiends? Move as beasts with 6 rending attacks on the charge. Flamers? Nice sacrifice unit to dig out entrenched troops. Bloodcrushers? Lots of attacks and decent save but slower. Beasts of Nurgle? S&P but very tough with FNP.

TR: Bloodletters? Hit hard with power weapons, standard moving with a mediocre save. Demonettes? Faster movers but low toughness means alot more 5+ saves. Horrors? The only shooty troop unit in the army but low toughness and strength is a loss in HTH. Plaguebeares? Dead hard with a great save, but very slow and even more unpredictable with S&P. Nurglings? Cheap tarpit swarms that do not suffer from insta-death but don't really hurt anything in HTH.

FA: Seekers? Great move as cavalry with decent rending attacks but low toughness as always. Hounds? Furies?

HV: DPs can be tooled well but wings are too costly. SGs have some nice movement, but suffer from hidden powerfist death and the potential one-shot-penetration = death issue.

I think that about sums up what we have here.


How about some suggestions for tactics and combos that would work well with this army. It appears that the army has to rely on many different tactics to do well. Any ideas?

[edit] Zero_Cool beat me to it [/edit]

I was interested in building a daemon army, and saw this thread.

A few observations that may be so obvious that they are lost to some here in the heat of the arguments.

1) Zero_Cool asked how to build a daemon army
2) Asked for everyone to play nice

I am seeing neither in this thread except references as to how bad "deamons suck" from a couple posters.
This doesn't address Zero_Cool's question nor does it abide by his plea to play nice.

I, for one, am interested in seeing where this thread goes without off-topic trolling. Is it possible to leave the egos and breast beating at the door of this forum long enough to discuss the actual topic of this thread?

In case some of you have forgotten what trolling is, or how it appears to be against this forums rules (which I have just read) I will refer you to one of it's definitions for your consideration.

I most certainly will be derided for trying to operate under a cool temperament by pointing the above out, but please do us all a favor and save your very thinly veiled argumentum ad hominem attacks which the mods here seem to overlook sometimes, for someone who actually cares what you think.

To the topic at hand.

After reading through the codex, I am becoming rather enamoured by the prospect of chariots for heralds.

I particularly enjoy imagining a Slaaneshi herald mounted on a chariot.
Give them unholy might and the hit and run ability, possibly pavane.
5 wounds a piece with 4/5+ saves and 5 attacks @ STR6.
It will be very tricky to use, what with it not having the IC rule for its safety, but I think it 2 or more are going to be highly annoying for a few armies.
Plus, I think they might very well look quite good on the table if someone were creative enough.

Caution: Long slightly rantish opinion.

The army relies on synergy to an extent. There aren't really jack of all trade units where you can get multiple roles out of them. Because of this, unsupported units will suffer if engaged on anything other than their terms.

So far, I've used an all rounded force to some success, including some of everything. When it works, it is because the pieces do their jobs while other pieces do theirs. So when my Plaguebearers are holding down an objective, holding an Icon instead of trying to fight off lots of marines or what not, things go better. When my daemonettes and seekers spend no more than 1 turn not in combat (and Seekers should never be out of combat save for when they first come on), I do well. When my Bloodletters fight Marines and my horrors gun down banshees, it works.

The problem then becomes how do you fit all of that into one army and how do you fit it into an army that is forced to split in half at the beginning of the game.

My approach so far has been designing my armies around 2 aspects: Shooty and Assaulty, (genius I know...)

But in the shooty, I feel you have to decide what kind of shooty you want. 5 man horrors with a bolt of tz are cheap and decent AT, DP's with bolt are much more expensive but are much more likely to hit, Soulgrinders are expensive but can be good anti horde with the ability to move and fire off a str 8 ap 3 large blast and a str 4 ap 5 assault 6 wep. So, from there you have to decide how much of each type of shooty you want, since 1 5 man horror group is not enough for AT, but 3 are, or a 10 horror group is better for massed volleys.

This is the same with assault. Do you want glass hammers or something with more staying power? Bloodletters, Bloodcrushers, Fiends of Nurgle, Greater Daemons, save for Tzeentch, DP's are great at fighting battles where you are not going to wipe the unit on the charge, but daemonettes, seekers, fiends, are going to get there sooner and should (save for a bad scatter) get into combat the next turn, if they survive shooting. Of course, these units will not win any kind of war of attrition. Do you want tarpits? Plaguebearers, nurglings, furies, and fleshhounds are great at wrapping up enemy units until the big hitters get there, but are not going to win against CC specialists most of the time. So with that in mind, you need to focus on how that cohort is going to be built.

I keep Bloodletters and daemonettes together because I try to have my daemonettes hit first to slow down a unit until the Bloodletters get there. I keep Seekers together with shooty elements so that there is less return fire at them so they can survive to do damage the next turn.

Of course, there are other schools of thought.

I can imagine an all horror cohort would be devestating as they can pump out a lot of firepower or an all MC cohort can weather a good deal of storms.

From my angle, as I start to retool and rebuild my armies, focusing on 2 main aspects (tarpit, glass hammer, sledge, horde shooty, high str shooty, etc), 1 for each cohort, and then adding support units is helpful to ensuring my army is balanced and capable of functioning as a whole.

The daemon army is not "point and click". Massed Bloodletters or very very focused forces will win against certain matchups, but in an all comers venue, I think that you have to mix and match units so that you can support the units that are most valuable against the varied opponents a RTT or GT will bring.

I think a daemon army can be tooled to fight specific armies very very well.

Fighting Orks? 3 Soulgrinders with phlegm, lots and lots of horrors, flamers and nurglings.

Fighting assaulty marines? Bloodletters, Seekers, Daemonettes, and Kos or Thrister. Or: 4 heralds of Tz with gaze of chaos, 3 DP's with gaze of chaos, flamers, and horrors, nurglings for tarpit.

Fighting shooty marines? Lots and Lots of seekers, flamers, daemonettes.

Fighting Nidzilla? GUO's, heralds of nurgle, (anything with noxious touch), seekers (notice a theme with seekers, they just rock), flamers (same as seekers).

But even then, as Darrian13 has said, they are a finesse army. Even when you have a list tooled to fight certain enemies, you can still easily blow the game, more so than other armies, but choosing the wrong targets and trying to make square pegs fit circular slots.

Stelek, I believe you've contradicted yourself:

Stelek wrote:Against demons, you do not, in fact, want to castle tightly.

You want to spread out and fill your entire deployment zone, and if you've got infiltrators, fill out from your deployment zone as much as possible.

Stelek wrote:You can't really believe these units are any good against someone castled up properly to stop your deep strike.

So what is the best way to deploy against daemons to limit their effectiveness? Is "proper castling" spreading out to the far reaches of your deployment zone?

You can be 'spread out' and 'castled tightly'.

I guess I need to provide a tactica or something.

That'd be cool, actually!

I don't want to speak for stelek, but his first description of how to deploy against a demon army is a very good strategy for everyone to start with when playing against demons. I think the second time when he used the term 'castle' I think it was just supposed to be referring to a defensive minded deployment.

Stelek, in that game I played against the shooty marine player, he deployed just like you suggested, at my behest. His devs were spread wide and their rhino was behind them. His whole army had filled every point of their deployment zone, with some small holes that just physically couldn't be filled thanks to his model count.

The reason i was able to land flamers and flame on turn 1, is that I play my flamers ultra-aggressively. For 105 points, I just feel like they are best utilized by dropping them at a point on the table where you can land a devastating flame. I had their entry point about 4 inches away from his front lines, at an angle between a tac combat squad and the devs. I scattered towards his lines right underneath the devs who were in the second and third stories of a building. Would have had a mishap if they weren't on higher stories.

The reason I'm so suicidal with them is because hurting the enemy on arrival is vital to the strategy of my current WIP list. Also, since they are jump infantry. If I mishap, I sill have a 50% chance of keeping them on the table. With 12+D6" movement every turn, they can be a threat again after an enemy placement. If they get shot, that's life.

Back to the OP. So far, my list has had a really good time against armies with true heavy weapons. If an army loses too much firepower on the move, then they'll be forced to stay still and hope to cripple you with just a single round of shooting. Demons have really made me want to change my beloved guard army into more of a mechanized force (well 5th ed. running assault armies make me want to do that as well) The more firepower an army can maintain while moving, the more difficult the games get. I have won a close game against a 9 skimmer dark eldar wych army. If you think about how many mobile bs4 lascannons that thing has, I would say that its a good indication of the demons ability to win despite enemy mobility. All of my MCs had died, but the plaguebearers hung tough on the objectives, the DE player had to spend too much time keeping pressure on my big guys, I focused on raiders with demon princes, and as the game drew to a close, the DE scoring units couldn't get to all of the recon objectives.

I'll reinforce what I said before about keeping your scoring units resilient and not relying on them for offense, and keeping your offensive units fast and explosive. There are different ways to accomplish that. I won't say that all MC demon armies are the only way to go. I think that may be the case, but its just way too early for hyperbole.

Just remember at 14 points per troop model, and with the demonic assault rules. You aren't a horde, and you can't make a list with a horde mentality.

I haven't played any games yet with the list so keep that in mind.

The main problem I am having when putting my army list together is the tension between wanting to get shooting on the board ASAP to try and disrupt the enemy shooting so my assault elements don't get shot to pieces upon arrival and actually getting my assault elements on the board so that they can get into close combat and actually do their job. If I bring in all of my shooting in the first wave then it will be turn three before I can launch any assaults at which point supperior enemy firepower has probably crippled my own shooting elements and/or the enemy has assaulted my shooting elements which mostly suck in hand to hand.

This really seems like a tricky list to build and play correctly and I guess trying to solve the puzzle of how to best use everything in combination is what intrigues me so much about the army.

I got the codex this weekend and I got to see part of a game involving Daemons in action, and I have to say it is a very intriguing army, but definitely not for players with a faint heart (or that don't like to lose sometimes).

I've been reading the codex quite a bit in the last few days trying to soak in all the nuances I can without actually playing the army and I've formed a few initial thoughts.

It seems to me that a lot of people advocate going with an approach of Deep Striking either a whole lot of models or really tough models in front of one flank of the opponent's army, taking a round of enemy fire and then attempting to do as much damage as possible with what is left.

While I think this strategy can work in some situations, I don't think its the best idea for the army (at least not if I were playing it).


I believe that speed and terrain is the key to winning with this army and minimizing the luck factor. A Demon army is fairly unique in that it is an assault army that can allow you to get into combat without taking much, if any enemy fire before charging, but to really take advantage of this fact you need to wait until you get more of your army available to charge together on turn 3. And in order to make sure the enemy just doesn't run away from your positions behind cover you need a whole lot of fast units.

With this concept in mind, durability is a secondary consideration behind speed and hitting power. That means the bread-and-butter of the army would be units of Seekers. Even with the rending nerf in 5th edition they should be able to tear through almost any unit in close combat (including vehicles) and their immense charge range means you can safely deploy them behind any cover and have a pretty good chance they'll be in charge range the following turn.

I would also take Fiends of Slaanesh because they are another very fast unit, but you get them out of the Elites section instead of Fast Attack (thus allowing you to take 3 units of Seekes and 3 units of Fiends for a total of six very fast maneuverable (but deadly in CC) units. These would be evenly spread between the two cohorts to guarantee that you get 3 fast units in on turn 1, ready to tie up enemy units on turn 2, should the need present itself.

A couple of units of plaguebearers could be used as your icon bearers with one placed in each cohort. Again, the goal would be to deploy these units out of LOS behind cover in an area where your fast units will be able to charge from behind cover. These Plaguebearers aren't meant to necessarily ever get into combat, they are just there to hold the icons and perhaps capture and hold objectives later in the game.

A couple units of pink horrors give the army some shooty options in case you're facing a horde, but again you'd have to resist the urge to drop them into range to fire immediately. They would be deployed out of LOS if possible, moving into firing range the same turn you move your fast units out of cover to charge.

Even though the horror units can have the Bolt of Tzeentch upgrade, only two shots for anti-vehicle is pretty sparse if you're facing a mech-heavy army. However, the Heralds of Tzeentch are pretty darn cheap and with the Chariot upgrade they move as jetbikes and have 5 wounds with that 4+ invulnerable save. Sure they're still only T3, but with the ability to move 12" and still fire the S10 Bolt of Tzeentch at BS4, they make a pretty good mobile tank hunting unit. They lose their IC status with the chariot upgrade but you really just need to use their mobility to stay out of rapid-fire range of units and their invulnerable save and 5 wounds should allow you to soak a bit of long-range fire unless you're talking about something like a Loota mob.

Finally, it doesn't hurt to have some heavy hitters running around supporting your fast fragile units. These can be a number of different things. If you've used up one HQ slot on two Tzeentch heralds, you could still take a Bloodthirster or two other CC heralds on chariots. Or you can always include some Daemon princes with the winged upgrade. I know this is a really expensive upgrade, but again you're banking on the fact that you'll be able to deploy out of LOS and then use the enhanced speed to get into combat without being shot.



That's about it for my first thoughts about a Daemon army. I think I'll try to bang out an army list using these concepts above and see what I can come up with.

I think this army is gonna get a bad reputation its 1st couple of months. Alot of people are gonna try it using the same old tactics they use with every other cc army and they're gonna get they're get their asses handed to them. I think time will prove Yak right. It'll probably be months before this lst is played enough to know what's the best tactics and units.

yakface wrote:
A couple of units of plaguebearers could be used as your icon bearers with one placed in each cohort. Again, the goal would be to deploy these units out of LOS behind cover in an area where your fast units will be able to charge from behind cover. These Plaguebearers aren't meant to necessarily ever get into combat, they are just there to hold the icons and perhaps capture and hold objectives later in the game.

Don't forget in 5th Edition they will be used as a meat shield to convey a 4+ cover save (if rumors are true) screen. Like to those aforementioned Seekers...

For what it's worth Bell of Lost Souls is confirming's Stelek's statement that Swarms get a new USR stating that they do NOT score. However, there is also something new up stating that ALL units can contest objectives.

I guess that pretty well puts to rest the whole using nurglings to drop onto and capture objectives strategy.

i am currently also making an army list:
Blue Scribes
Skulltaker on chariot
Herald of tzeentch
5 flamers w/ bolt
4 flamers with bolt
6 fiends
10 flesh hounds w/kranak
6 screamers of tzeentch
10 seekers
10 X daemonettes X 2
5 X horrors w/ bolt X 2

I got some points to spend and with some cuts I think I can squeeze in either a GD or 2 DP Tzeentch style. Skulltaker imo seems to wreak havoc against troops with 4+ instant death. I test played it against opponent and we were about even till he had to leave (not running away!). This game I had a bloodthirster in but he got wasted turn 1 against heavy fire. The 2 DPs are looking good right now from people here. Should I go for 2 DPs or have 1 DP and 1 GD and take out a herald of tzeentch (basically "lower" DP tzeentch) or take out skulltaker?
Any suggestions?

I am a Slaneesh guy through and through and I am really concerned that the rending nerf will render a GT level Slanessh specific army impossible.

My old pre crap codex chaos deamon bomb army was devastating and brought me a 32-5 tourney record, even though it was 100% fluffy with all units in sacred numbers, 5 troops and lots of conversions.

I sold that army a few years back and had not played again until december, and I had been eagerly awaiting the new deamon book since I refuse to play slaneesh without deamonettes, its just sacriledge.

Based on Yaks analysis it seems that it could be possibel to go slaneesh, but I worry that without the resillience of the plaguebearers the army will simply vanish before it can do any real damage.

Is a pure slaneesh army viable for serious tourney play or is this just a fun army?

If thats the case I will probably go Fantasy as CSM w/o deamonettes just doesnt work for me.

bigtmac68 wrote:I am a Slaneesh guy through and through and I am really concerned that the rending nerf will render a GT level Slanessh specific army impossible.

My old pre crap codex chaos deamon bomb army was devastating and brought me a 32-5 tourney record, even though it was 100% fluffy with all units in sacred numbers, 5 troops and lots of conversions.

I sold that army a few years back and had not played again until december, and I had been eagerly awaiting the new deamon book since I refuse to play slaneesh without deamonettes, its just sacriledge.

Based on Yaks analysis it seems that it could be possibel to go slaneesh, but I worry that without the resillience of the plaguebearers the army will simply vanish before it can do any real damage.

Is a pure slaneesh army viable for serious tourney play or is this just a fun army?

If thats the case I will probably go Fantasy as CSM w/o deamonettes just doesnt work for me.

Well IMO if you go pure slaanesh you could do 3 units of 6 fiends and 3 units of 10 seekers and then daemonettes. IMO slaanesh units are fragile but give you a really good punch when they are in good numbers. Fiends are somewhat tough and it can totally decimate most troops with its attacks and rending. Seekers are basically daemonettes on steeds with 1 more attack and huge range - again with the sheer number of attacks + rending it will be very nasty. I guess as long as the slaanesh units are in HtH they should be fine especially their high Is make them go first most of the time.

havent got the codex yet but from what I have seen my thought was to try to build a force with 2 equal detachments so that the d/s randomness would have no effect.

Something like 2 equal detachements of Herald,6-Fiends,10-Deamonettes,10-Seekers, DP

Deploy the turn 1 strike very conservatively and then use the speed of the units to manuever for a decisive second wave.

Im sure that could do great if terrain is thick enough but on a wide open board I just see a lot of dead deamonettes.

Am I missing something, thiking of the wrong kind of build, or am I right that a slaneesh list can not be consistently competitive?

I've been experimenting with Codex: Daemons for a while now, tried a Khorne list with an armored and an unarmored wing, and based on the experiences I had when the unarmored side dropped first I'd say mono-Slaanesh won't be highly competitive. Just too vulnerable to enemy shooting if they fall close, and falling far has its own set of issues.

40kenthusiast wrote:I've been experimenting with Codex: Daemons for a while now, tried a Khorne list with an armored and an unarmored wing, and based on the experiences I had when the unarmored side dropped first I'd say mono-Slaanesh won't be highly competitive. Just too vulnerable to enemy shooting if they fall close, and falling far has its own set of issues.

What have you found to be competitive? I am trying a slaanesh/Tzeentch with splash of khorne.

I just played 2 more games this weekend. 1 very convincing win against a tooled black templars army and 1 draw against mech eldar.

That brings my total games with my current list (or close to it) to 8. I haven't lost to marines yet, mech eldar has been a loss and a draw, and I've both beaten and lost to orks.

some quick notes for people that haven't tested yet.

1. Don't build 2 half-sized identical lists. It isn't going to work out. Build a resilient scoring half and an explosive killy half. If you ask for and get the killy half, go to town kill them all and wait for your scoring units to trickle in and grab objectives. if you ask for resilient or get it when you ask for killy, then deploy a bit further back, watch the angles and play it cool. As your killy stuff comes in you'll have access to more than 1 icon. Use the icons to pinpoint accurately drop down your threats. your threats should either be insanely fast, or have good shooting.

2. good units to start with (if you are stuck on list construction)... bloodthirster, keeper of secrets, flamers, plaguebearers, walking demon princes with shooting attacks.

3. land and immediately attack their scoring units if you are playing 5th edition. with multiple units of flamers landing suicidally close to their troop concentration, you can kill 12-20 space marines on turn 1 pretty easily.

4. if you use flamers (and you should) play aggressively. Land them so that if you get a hit on the scatter dice, you can get 2 flamer templates on the unit you aimed for. They'll never get a shot off if you don't shoot on arrival (I mean never) but if you do get them in the right spot it'l be mass carnage. I'm talking about 13+ dead orks kinda carnage.

I hope to put this weekends batreps up, they were pretty illuminating for me.

shep, what units have you had the best outing with? I am split on Daemonettes and Bloodletters, Seekers and Hounds. Should I split them (10 units each) or focus on a particular unit? Also, are you using a fire magnet when you drop? I am thinking of Kugrath since he's got the ordnance spell and it will surely attract fire... Any suggestions on those units?

between bloodletters and demonettes, i would say bloodletters. On paper I like demonettes so much. i was so fired up to use them, and i played 4 games with them. man it was frustrating watching them die. T3 with a 5+ save is just not acceptable. The problem is compunded by the fact that even if they don't kill them all off, 2 or 3 demonettes can simply be ignored. 5th edition rending can just be really underwhelming. Bloodletters are both slightly harder to kill and hit much harder when they get a charge off. ironically enough, I think bloodletters perform very well when you have a nearby pavane of slaanesh.

Between seekers and hounds, I'd have to say seekers. they are both the same speed, and hounds are harder to kill, but with hounds not having power weapons like the bloodletters, the bonus has to go to the seekers. Karanak makes a good case, but i think i slightly like the mass rending attacks. It's like Yak was saying. Demonettes are easy to kill, and fleet doesn't really make them quite fast enough to land in a safe spot. the beasts can land a bit further back, making their fragility less of a concern.

My list currently has 5 MCs, 3 flamer units, and 4 plaguebearer units. i don't really use a "fire magnet" because I don't like the concept. If you have one thing you really want to get shot at, its hard to convince your opponent to shoot at it.

I like my units to come in two varieties. Hard to kill, scoring units. and hard to escape from, killy as hell units.

Someone made mention of kugath just being another source of flamer template and thats pretty spot on. its pretty inefficient. he might be good in an epidemic list, because its flamer wounds that count towards your tally, but pound for pound, the bloodthirster is the king of fast, tough, and lethal. id run 2 in my list but I find both the pavane and the hit and run of the keeper of secrets just slightly more valuable than a second thirster.

if there is a unit that i would demand that you run, its flamers. My gaming group respected them immediately, and now a month later. I'm starting to hear the groans about cheesy. don't take more than 3 to a unit. And plan for them to die immediately after landing. this means land them for an immediate flame, if you mishap, you've got a chance to return them into reserve or maybe have opponent place them somewhere else. here are some actual in-game numbers of a unit of flamers arriving at various times in the game.

7 marine devastators
10 fire dragons (caused 11 wounds)
13 shoota boys
5 wraithguard
numerous entire combat squads

in each case they landed, caused way more than 105 points in damages, and then drew fire in return. They are vital to distract and damage enemy shooting on your first wave, to spread their attentions and reduce their shooting on your big important assault units. Later on, having the added control of an icon can mean putting them in position to kill a dozen models or more in a single shot. My opponents have seen a combination of pavaning a unit after a flamer unit has landed nearby and moving that unit to be the perfect distance and density to get 15-18 hits. It's mean...

Gotta agree with Shep on flamers. They are beautiful creatures.

Seekers are much more killy than Flesh Hounds, but will not last if you don't do a lot of damage on the charge. Flesh Hounds are more survivable in my experience, so if you want something fast to tie up units for the big hitters, Flesh hounds are better. If you want something that can kill just about anything, Seekers.

Bloodthirsters are amazing. I do love KoS, especially for the I:10 and 6 base attacks, good in conjunction with a hammer and anvil type tactic. (Pavane juicy unit closer to bloodletters, bloodcrushers, etc or force people into tight formation for flamers/soulgrinder)

Shep is all kinds of right.

Shep, great info, what are your 5 MCs may I ask? And how is this army?

HQ:
Skulltaker w/chariot
Heral tzeentch w/chariot,master sorc, bolt
bloodthirster w/ deathstrike,blessing,unholy might
Elite:
6 fiends
3 flamers X 2
fast:
8 seekers X 2
Troops:
10 blood letters w/ icon X 2
6 horrors + changeling w/bolt
6 horrors w/ bolt
heavy:
deamon prince tzeentch, bolt, gaze

total 1993

One thing i might not agree with you but since you played the most is 3 flamers per unit. How come you dont want to have 5-6 so they survive enough to go get another blast? And you DS the flamers aggressively next to enemy units right?

Now i got bloodthrister to take down troops,tanks and whatnot and daemon prince to get rid of medium guys while my other troops go ahead.

shaselai wrote:Shep, great info, what are your 5 MCs may I ask?

bloodthirster (usually with unholy might), keeper of secrets with pavane and musk, and 3x tzeentch princes with gaze and bolt

shaselai wrote:And how is this army?

it looks good

shaselai wrote:Skulltaker w/chariot
Heral tzeentch w/chariot,master sorc, bolt
bloodthirster w/ deathstrike,blessing,unholy might

I haven't tried skulltaker yet, but that looks like a khorne marked demon prince for 160 points for half an HQ slot. I like the tzeentch sniper, but I'd rather max out on sniper princes first. they cost 60 more points but there close cmbat ability is night and day better than the heralds, and they have BS5. Bloodthirsters good, sometimes the plasma pistol is overpriced, but its amazing when it pops open a raider or trukk and you get to charge the goodies inside instead of the transport.

shaselai wrote:6 fiends
3 flamers X 2

excellent

shaselai wrote:8 seekers X 2

let me know how these work out, haven't used em yet but i trust yakfaces analysis, even after only a cold look at the codex.

shaselai wrote:10 blood letters w/ icon X 2
6 horrors + changeling w/bolt
6 horrors w/ bolt

Not my personal choice for troops, but its more aggressive, and that might pay out. I can't say your choices are "wrong" You can drop the bolts for points. The Bs3 will kill them and you'll be too tempted to waste the 15 anti-infantry shots by taking hail mary shots at tanks.

shaselai wrote:deamon prince tzeentch, bolt, gaze

delicious

shaselai wrote:One thing i might not agree with you but since you played the most is 3 flamers per unit. How come you dont want to have 5-6 so they survive enough to go get another blast? And you DS the flamers aggressively next to enemy units right?

I think I could convince you. First I gotta make sure that you know that you cannot willfully place a template so that it touches a friendly model. This means that in a deep strike formation one model in 3 is highly likely to not be able to place a template covering enemy models. he'll have to shoot his warpfire instead. The more flamers you add to the unit, the more "wasted" templates you'll have on landing. If you went for 6+ flamers per unit in an effort to survive return fire, then by the very nature of their expensiveness and the size of their deepstrike formation, it becomes unacceptably large and expensive to suicide with as well as more dangerous and prone to mishap. 210 points is too much to go aggressive with. Once you start playing conservatively with flamers, they get shot and lose their devastating shock factor.

and yes, I drop close.. We are talking 5" away from more than one unit. I've had 2 mishaps in 8 games, with 6 of those games containing 2 units of flamers and 2 of those games containing 3. One mishap put them back in reserve, the other one destroyed the unit.

Let me know what happens with those seekers!

Shep wrote:

bloodthirster (usually with unholy might), keeper of secrets with pavane and musk, and 3x tzeentch princes with gaze and bolt

Isn't that like close to 1000 points on 5 models? What armies have you had the most trouble with these guys? Don't want to say point sinks but thats a lot of points for 5 models... Also, aren't the tzeentch princes a bit slow in getting into combat? Even if you rely on bolt/gaze it will take quite a while to get the points back... that's why i decided to use a herald of tzeentch for mobility.

I haven't tried skulltaker yet, but that looks like a khorne marked demon prince for 160 points for half an HQ slot. I like the tzeentch sniper, but I'd rather max out on sniper princes first. they cost 60 more points but there close cmbat ability is night and day better than the heralds, and they have BS5. Bloodthirsters good, sometimes the plasma pistol is overpriced, but its amazing when it pops open a raider or trukk and you get to charge the goodies inside instead of the transport.

Well the driving point for the skulltaker is the 4+ rending instant death. Even with the new rules on rending the WS will be good enough to not matter too much. Is it just too good on paper?


Not my personal choice for troops, but its more aggressive, and that might pay out. I can't say your choices are "wrong" You can drop the bolts for points. The Bs3 will kill them and you'll be too tempted to waste the 15 anti-infantry shots by taking hail mary shots at tanks.

i think you said you have 4 units of plaguebearers. Do they see much combat with their speed?

Another thing, i dont have the rules with me atm, but i believe chariots are treated as jetbikes right? Can they make "turns" or they can only go straight when they charge?
If the chariots can only charge straight or even move straight i think i might ditch skulltaker+herald for another greater daemon - 2nd bloodthirster or a lord of change/kipper

Finally, what do you think the weakness of my army is against certain types of armies (sorry i havent played a while so not sure what "types" there might be). I don't think mine is too shooty and if anything might be too assaulty - should i remove assault unit and get some shooting>?

Shep, you said, "Bloodthirsters good, sometimes the plasma pistol is overpriced, but its amazing when it pops open a raider or trukk and you get to charge the goodies inside instead of the transport."

I was under the impression that in 4th, you have to charge what you shot at. Since you shot at the transport and destroyed it, you would be unable to charge the unit inside, because you didn't shoot at them, just the transport.

I have a bunch of questions about Daemons, and rather then start a half a dozen threads in multiple forums, I'm asking them all here. If anybody can help, I'd appreciate it.

1) Aura of Aquiescence: I know what assault and defense grenades will do in 5th, but what do they do in 4th? Is it nothing?

2) Is it just me, or are chariots absolute no brainers? With Eternal warrior and a 5++, 5 wounds go a long way, even if only T3.

3) How are people modeling chariots, and what size base are they putting them on? I love the idea of chariots for 15 pts, but buying a chariot kit, two steeds of slaanesh and a daemonette is a huge expense. I'm going to proxy it with the Biker Lord that used to be the spearhead for a daemonbomb, does anybody think this is wrong while there is no official model? It's on the sentinel base and pretty neat.

4) Can units fleet after deepstriking in 4th? I don't know if this got FAQ'd or not, but it seems reasonable that they would.

5) Pavane is just a normal move, so you can't move anything into combat, right?

6) How does this look for a 1750 Slaanesh heavy list? I'm not trying to win GTs, just be competitive:
Kos, Pavane
2x Herald in Chariot, Pavane, Icon, Gaze
1 Fiend
4 units of 12 Daemonettes, two with icons
2 units of 6 horrors with icons and bolt of tzeentch
8 Seekers
6 Seekers

The size icons drop in the first wave.

thanks for any help you can provide.

Polonius wrote:
1) Aura of Aquiescence: I know what assault and defense grenades will do in 5th, but what do they do in 4th? Is it nothing?

For the next two months, play it like they have blight grenades and frag grenades.

2) Is it just me, or are chariots absolute no brainers? With Eternal warrior and a 5++, 5 wounds go a long way, even if only T3.

3) How are people modeling chariots, and what size base are they putting them on? I love the idea of chariots for 15 pts, but buying a chariot kit, two steeds of slaanesh and a daemonette is a huge expense. I'm going to proxy it with the Biker Lord that used to be the spearhead for a daemonbomb, does anybody think this is wrong while there is no official model? It's on the sentinel base and pretty neat.

Chariots are good, though they remove IC status. I posted how I built a daemonette chariot here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/211992.page

4) Can units fleet after deepstriking in 4th? I don't know if this got FAQ'd or not, but it seems reasonable that they would.

They cannot in 4th.

5) Pavane is just a normal move, so you can't move anything into combat, right?

Correct

6) How does this look for a 1750 Slaanesh heavy list? I'm not trying to win GTs, just be competitive:
Kos, Pavane
2x Herald in Chariot, Pavane, Icon, Gaze
1 Fiend
4 units of 12 Daemonettes, two with icons
2 units of 6 horrors with icons and bolt of tzeentch
8 Seekers
6 Seekers

I don't like the lone fiend. Rending always seems to work better when there is more of it. Dunno if Gaze is that useful either. For a slaanesh chariot I'd rather have either Might or Musk.

Is there a, I hate to say official, but is there a ruling anywhere on using Aura as frag grenades? I suppose I can simply contact a tournament organizer and ask.

I saw your chariot conversion, I love it! I'm not wild about spending $60+ on a 15pt upgrade, but I think it'll be necessary.

As for the Fiend and Gaze, I was running out of points. I could drop the two gazes and the fiend and plump for double Musk. Something to consider.

whitedragon- I've been playing all of my games with a pdf of the 5th edition rules... edited to include most of the 'confirmed' rumors. In 5th edition if you shoot at a transport and kill it, the contents of the transport become a legal charge target. So if a bloodthirster was planning on charging a transport anyway, you've got a chance to get the creamy filling instead.

Polonius- Gaze is awesome, but I can't imagine putting it on something that I would want to be running/fleeting with. I agree with redbeard there.

Shep-

You suggested taking out skulltaker/herald in favor of DPs. Arent DPs really slow and dont "snipers" generally need more speed? I could take out skulltaker for another DP or take out skulltaker and herald for Lord of change/kos. Or just get one DP and use the rest for more troops (horrors, hounds?)

And is 5 MC really that good of an idea to put ~1k points into? how durable are they?

My DPs are one of the units that I'm pretty confident that I like a lot. Snipers don't need to be fast. the tzeentch DP like you run can land easily and safely, and be firing shots on turn 1. His shots are at least as effective as his close combat attacks, he has a 24" range and can move 6" towards where you ultimately want them to be, firing all the way. their 'speed' comes from their ability to put 4 high quality shots into people from 24" away. I bet you are thinking that snipers need speed because you are thinking about units like land speeders and other small footprint high firepower units that have to hide from fire on turn 1. Shooty demons don't need nearly as much maneuverability, they get to land in an unpredictable place, very close to the opponent. If wings were 15 points I'd take them, but they are unfortunately not.

As to your question about 5 MCs. I can't honestly answer that. I played my first few games with the "horde" approach. i didn't take any units with toughness higher than 4. i took lots of demonettes and lots of bloodletters. I took fiends and screamers for tank kill, and heralds for tricks and close combat potential. I tried bluescribes, masque, and any other trick I could find. The army felt underpowered and played like target practice for my opponent. I immediately switched to the other extreme, with max MCs. After switching, I went undefeated against marines in 4 games. I actually tied the eldar army I was really afraid of, and have managed to split my games against 160 model orks. I haven't returned to use the other units because I'm doing all of my learning with this list...

What I'm trying to say, is that lots of single wound models didn't work for me, and lots of MCs is starting to work for me as i play more games. Until i go back and revisit all of the units in the context of a good list and using all of the tricks I've learned, it'd be pretty silly for me to say that 5 MCs is the way to go.

How durable are the MCs? Well if they were any more durable, some armies would find it impossible to beat demons. Having said that, every game i play I wish that they all had one more wound. I generally finish my games with only 1 or 2 MCs left. Its hard to win the victory point games by a big enough margin. You start the game, kick ass, take control, and win on objectives usually. but when games drag on to later turns, the units that you didn't kill start to get annoying and start to pick at your MCs. that wave serpent that you couldn't penetrate will start putting wounds on your princes, even though its passengers are long dead. That kinda thing. So when they manage to force the tie in take and hold, you tend to give up lots of victory points on half dead greater demons, dead princes, and all those flamers you suicided with. Mcs aren't any more durable than a comparable sized unit, but they don't lose any of their effectiveness as they lose wounds. they fight at high initiative, or they have awesome shots, until they lose their last wound.

Shep wrote:My DPs are one of the units that I'm pretty confident that I like a lot. Snipers don't need to be fast. the tzeentch DP like you run can land easily and safely, and be firing shots on turn 1. His shots are at least as effective as his close combat attacks, he has a 24" range and can move 6" towards where you ultimately want them to be, firing all the way. their 'speed' comes from their ability to put 4 high quality shots into people from 24" away. I bet you are thinking that snipers need speed because you are thinking about units like land speeders and other small footprint high firepower units that have to hide from fire on turn 1. Shooty demons don't need nearly as much maneuverability, they get to land in an unpredictable place, very close to the opponent. If wings were 15 points I'd take them, but they are unfortunately not.

As to your question about 5 MCs. I can't honestly answer that. I played my first few games with the "horde" approach. i didn't take any units with toughness higher than 4. i took lots of demonettes and lots of bloodletters. I took fiends and screamers for tank kill, and heralds for tricks and close combat potential. I tried bluescribes, masque, and any other trick I could find. The army felt underpowered and played like target practice for my opponent. I immediately switched to the other extreme, with max MCs. After switching, I went undefeated against marines in 4 games. I actually tied the eldar army I was really afraid of, and have managed to split my games against 160 model orks. I haven't returned to use the other units because I'm doing all of my learning with this list...

What I'm trying to say, is that lots of single wound models didn't work for me, and lots of MCs is starting to work for me as i play more games. Until i go back and revisit all of the units in the context of a good list and using all of the tricks I've learned, it'd be pretty silly for me to say that 5 MCs is the way to go.

How durable are the MCs? Well if they were any more durable, some armies would find it impossible to beat demons. Having said that, every game i play I wish that they all had one more wound. I generally finish my games with only 1 or 2 MCs left. Its hard to win the victory point games by a big enough margin. You start the game, kick ass, take control, and win on objectives usually. but when games drag on to later turns, the units that you didn't kill start to get annoying and start to pick at your MCs. that wave serpent that you couldn't penetrate will start putting wounds on your princes, even though its passengers are long dead. That kinda thing. So when they manage to force the tie in take and hold, you tend to give up lots of victory points on half dead greater demons, dead princes, and all those flamers you suicided with. Mcs aren't any more durable than a comparable sized unit, but they don't lose any of their effectiveness as they lose wounds. they fight at high initiative, or they have awesome shots, until they lose their last wound.

Well do you value GD more than DPs? Right now I have 1 GD and 1 DP. I can easily get another GD dumping my 2 heralds and I might squeeze by(with some unit tweeking) getting 2 DPs. I am considering Lord Tzeentch, Kos, DP Tzeentch, DP slaanesh, DP nurgle. You suggested using Pavane which is pretty cool trick so I am somewhat leaning toward DP Tzeentch+slaanesh. Also thought about a flying Nurgle DP with noxious touch- 2+ wound no AS is pretty cool... any suggestions from your experience using different GD and DPs?

yeah keeper and thirster are the backbone of my entire army. I value them more than any other units in my army. I like the lord of change and i even like the cheap GUO, but they don't do what the keeper/thirster combo does.

As far as princes go. I've seen a lot of princes i like here on dakka. the tzeentch sniper is my favorite primarily because he brings good tank killing. but undivided or khorne marked princes with just iron hide are cheap and nasty. Flying nurgle princes with aura of decay and iron hide are like mini GDs, slaanesh DPs can bring Bs5 pavanes, but they are expensive, I can't really figure out what else to outfit the slaanesh version with. I'd probably try to build him as a stand in Keeper of Secrets if i wasn't using a KoS for some reason.

i think what you need to do is just try out the 'big guy' list. It might not work for you, but you'll be able to answer a lot of the hard to answer questions about survivability after a couple games at your FLGS. this list here will work under 4th ed rules, but it's really designed for 5th. Thats why the plaguebearers are in there. (to score objectives)

thirster
keeper musk pvn

3x3 flamers

2x8 PBs with icons
2x5 PBs

3x tzeentch princes

ask for the MCs, and drop em and start thrashing around and killing models. You'll get a better feel for what they can do. After a couple games, you can re-integrate other units... with better expectations of how they should perform. Keep me informed. Actual data from a real game is pretty damn valuable for all of us dakka-ites.

Shep wrote:yeah keeper and thirster are the backbone of my entire army. I value them more than any other units in my army. I like the lord of change and i even like the cheap GUO, but they don't do what the keeper/thirster combo does.

As far as princes go. I've seen a lot of princes i like here on dakka. the tzeentch sniper is my favorite primarily because he brings good tank killing. but undivided or khorne marked princes with just iron hide are cheap and nasty. Flying nurgle princes with aura of decay and iron hide are like mini GDs, slaanesh DPs can bring Bs5 pavanes, but they are expensive, I can't really figure out what else to outfit the slaanesh version with. I'd probably try to build him as a stand in Keeper of Secrets if i wasn't using a KoS for some reason.

i think what you need to do is just try out the 'big guy' list. It might not work for you, but you'll be able to answer a lot of the hard to answer questions about survivability after a couple games at your FLGS. this list here will work under 4th ed rules, but it's really designed for 5th. Thats why the plaguebearers are in there. (to score objectives)

thirster
keeper musk pvn

3x3 flamers

2x8 PBs with icons
2x5 PBs

3x tzeentch princes

ask for the MCs, and drop em and start thrashing around and killing models. You'll get a better feel for what they can do. After a couple games, you can re-integrate other units... with better expectations of how they should perform. Keep me informed. Actual data from a real game is pretty damn valuable for all of us dakka-ites.

What is the keeper/thirster combo? You mean move units toward thirster with keeper and thirster charges? Is it better to get 1GD over 2 DPs? I know you said you love GDs above all else but the DPs are just little bit away from GDs in stats no? And by the way, can you pavane enemy troops off the tabletop?

Why are you comparing GDs to DPs when they come from different areas of the FoC? By "DPs," do you actually mean "Heralds?"

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Why are you comparing GDs to DPs when they come from different areas of the FoC? By "DPs," do you actually mean "Heralds?"

DP is daemon prince, they are in heavy support. Stat-wise DPs are 1-2 stat behind the GDs with same sign. I am comparing because i can get enough points to have 1 more GD or 2 DPs.

Kinda skipped threw this thread but I haven't seen much in the way of an Epidimious style nurgle army. I have been playing around with a nurgle/khorne mix and found nruglings incredibily tough to kill. Plaguebearers were decent with one wound but in general the list lacked offensive power. Enter the great herald. Once you start passing 10 kills, the nurglings get nasty! 3 attacks each plus charge bonus (unlike the PB) and 3 wounds for less points. I had a unit of nobs tied up for 6 assault phases before I got something else to come in and kill them (wasn't using Epi). And since plaguebearers cant kill crap on turn one, the downside is you have to rely on the MCs and another herald using breath is my thought.

I'm assuming Epi's bonus would kick in on your opponents assault phase. So you plop down nurglings and some big stuff close in, flame on and watch him pick up the small models. Get your bonus and next turn drop more nurglings and Epi (does his bonus count even for models killed before he arrives??? Seems like it would but otherwise, send him in the first wave) I would put Epi with a nice big unit of plagueboys just to keep him safe. Also save something like a GUO for the second wave as a counterstrike, or put a DP with wings behind the front line.

I'm considering spoiling the nurgfest with screamers - need some fast tank kill. A soulgrinder does NOT work - he's not nurgle after all.

nurglings are that good? They seem very killable and not that good at all... how many are you supposed to have to make them worth it?

And Shep, what do you mean by 5th edition point system? care to explain? thanks!

@ armus

Epidimius's tally is only counted while he is on the table. His bonuses are generated at the beginning of your turn only by counting the casualties up until that point. Nurgle units get whatever bonuses they have reached for the remainder of that turn until your next turn when you count again. The count is a running total, but the bonus levels are only checked at the beginning of your turn (you do not "power up" during your opponents turns).

Ok, i playtested the army and it was about even before we had to leave. Played against a shooty chaos army (termies, minimal rapid/heavy squads, tanks). The flamers did fine before getting blasted by rapid fire. The skulltaker didn't live long enough as expected (even with the chariot). The bloodthirster did OK - killed a tank and couple of heavy squads. One seeker squad was blasted to bits by rapid fire before it got anywhere (well 2 survived...) The other seeker squad (due to some awesome rolls!) went straight through a terminator squad but got blasted to bits by shooting. The fiends were fantastic! They ripped through a squad with no casualties and was about to charge another squad. Horrors were pretty good when they got into range - kind of a payback for the rapid fire i received!
We had to quit early but at that time i think with average luck he wouldve killed all my seekers, part of blood letter squad, maybe some of horrors.

I think the biggest disappointment was probably the seekers being so weak when they are not in combat and the bloodletter being a bit slow. I totally loved the fiends, the GD and DP. He had too many min/max units so it was hard to pinpoint a "pointsink".

Here is the revised army:
HQ
bloodthirster w/ ,blessing,unholy might

Elite:
6 fiends
3 flamers X 2
fast:
10 seekers
10 flesh hounds
Troops:
10 blood letters w/ icon
10 daemonettes w/icon
5 horrors w/ changeling w/bolt
5 horrors w/ bolt
heavy:
deamon prince tzeentch, bolt, gaze
daemon prince tzeentch, bolt, gaze
DP slaanesh w/pavane iron hide

Total = 2000

the dilemma is that the slaanesh DP has 5+ inv. so i put in the iron hide, BUT i couldnt fit in a gaze - thought about removing an icon for it but decided not to... the gaze will definitely help for extra damage though....

Also thought about trading the 2 DPs for a GD of slaanesh and use the extra points for some nurglings or something else... any suggestions?

I decided to split the hounds and seekers, blood letters and daemonettes so it is a bit different for the opponent to take on.

All Right. I was so geeked about the daemons that I threw together a list (What I had lying around) and played it in a tournament two days later. I figured I had enough good stuff to come in the middle of the pack. I had:

KuGath
Tzeentch Herald, Master of Sorcery, We Are Legion, BoC

Daemon Prince of Khorne with Wings and Death Strike
(I should have probably made this a GUO and Bloodthirster) But decided I liked the tzeentch herald.

11 Horrors with Changeling, BoC, Icon
7 Plaguebearers with Icon
8 Bloodletters with Icon

2x3 Flamers, BoT

9 Flesh Hounds

In my first play test I played myself against my own IG and used the terrain and a refused flank to turn a crap load of bad luck into a win. Then I faced marines and Necrons and had great luck and absolutely no problem crushing them. The tournament was another story. I got a draw in a game I dominated, because I couldn’t get to his Demolisher in time. In Annihilation, that cost me the win. In the second game we had a very tough game against Orks that went 5.5 turns. If I had the last turn, the concensus was that I would have won. So, the first two games were tough, but in each case it was like I brought just a little too little to finish off each opponent. In the last game I was at a huge, yet comical disadvantage. I was up against hoard IG with jungle fighters on a jungle table with lots of firelanes. But, that was not all. The jungles were DANGEROUS terrain. It was ruled (probably rightfully so) that the jungle fighters ignored the dangerous part of the dangerous terrain. So, I could not use the terrain so much, and he could use it very well. It was an up-hill battle all of the way, yet I had a chance (ever so slight) up to the last dice rolls. Kugath, in the second game was a hog from turn 2-6, taking upwards of 35 power claw attacks in the gut and shrugging off all but four. Yet, in the last game he died to six lasguns on turn four (the turn in which he showed up).

In the first three games I rated my units as follows:
Bloodletters F, Plaguebearers B-, Horrors A-, Flamers A, Flesh Hounds B+, Prince A-, Kugath B-.

I found that Kugath’s neat tricks were all just pretty gimmicky and not worth the extra points. Flamers are a no-brainer, the best unit in the codex. The Plaguebearers did what they were supposed to do, survive and summon, yet I always tended to have the worst scatters and SnP rolls for them and so they didn’t even do that well. Bloodletters never got there. Flesh Hounds filled their roll nicely, holding up the enemy units.

In the tournament, I played the Bloodletters way more aggressively in the first game and that worked out nicely. They almost survived the 1st game, and they scored in both of the last two games. The flesh hounds were not quite as good.

I did not like the Bolt of Change on the horrors. I used it once and it fizzled. As a matter of a fact the only BoT shot that worked in the entire tournament was the last one which a flamer used on the rear armor of a demolisher. The herald got off a good shot against the Orks and I got a pen 1. So, even though I had 4 Bolts, the game never played like I had that much as I was usually using the units that had them for other purposes, or else they just kept bouncing off of demolishers.

I agree that three flamers is ideal for the Wind templates on deep strike, but when facing a hoard army, cover and lots of warpfire is better. Being conservative with them in my last game is what kept me in the game.

I like the plaguebearers and horrors a lot, but the horrors died 2.5 times out of three.

I theorize that flesh hounds are better than the Slaanesh units at tying up units, as the Slaanesh units are going to hit too hard and be open to return fire, but that may play out differently. Flesh Hounds may be more surviveable to return fire, but not by enough, so I base this on the fact that they don’t hit as hard as Seekers.

I not only found hoard armies a huge problem, as I figured, but I found quadrant games to be a problem. I gave up first turn and he had all four quadrants early because I couldn’t push him back at all. I am 90% sure that I would have won all three games with any of my other armies.

My overall conclusions: I agree with those who say that there will be no daemons in the top tables on day 2 of the GT’s. I think there are two builds that were are going to see, 5 Monsterous Creatures, and 4 monsterous Nurgle creatures with Epidemius.

I give it two enthusiastic thumbs up for the fun factor, but two thumbs down for viability. That being said, I enjoy the4 codex and concept enough to keep playing it.

@ zero cool
I realize the check is at the start of the turn but was wondering if it just mean your turn. I feared Epi would have to be on the table but that's not a big problem. Nurglings are still that cool. Feel no pain and a 5+ save is still feel no pain and a 5+ save with 3 wounds and no instant death. They, like the plaguebearers, can't kill squat(s) until Epi's 10-model bonus, but they won't die as much. Battlecannons and the like do ruin their day but most folks are going to ignore them I believe especially with big stuff on the board. The big stuff I'm hoping will fuel the model list and result in surprise! nurglings are gods at 13 pts. I plan to run three squads of 7 (the magic number) costing 273 points. That's not a significant portion of an 1850 army but once epi reaches his mark, one squad (91 points) can easily wipe a tac squad or more. the major flaw, as will any daemon army, is a rhino rush stile marine force that goes after the engine to this army, Epi.

Another issue you have is that in 1/3 of your games Epi will show up in the second wave, on rounds 2 or 3. This can be...problematic.