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Post by: Wildstorm
We had a 600 point tournament in my area yesterday to get used to the new rules. We had a good turn out with several new players showing up to try out the "new" game. Lots of rules questions and general discussions going on, but one theme I kept hearing over and how was Orks.
Ork Boyz are too good for just 6 points each.
Orks can take up to 180 wounds of scoring units realatively cheap.
Those same Orks will be fearless for most of the game.
Any army that is geared to beat that many Orks, probably won't win against many other armies.
Max Ork troops + Lootas + Snikrot are already very popular in the big tournaments.
Etc.
No one was whining, just discussing the new rules. It also helped to see a couple of guys with over 50 Orks in our 600 point format. They didn't loose many games. I had to leave early so I don't know who won, but they were in the running.
So has 5th turned into rock/paper/scissor armies?
Is every army going to get nasty stuff when their codex comes out (in a few years...)?
What are you guys finding that beats that many Orks?
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Post by: MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy
It's not as bad at higher points levels. 180 orks is rather unwieldy. There is a limit of how many boyz you can fit in combat/shoota range.
Players will have to get used to using less las/plas and more template/multi shot weapons. Which are probably a good idea against all the new cover anyway.
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Post by: Regwon
the game is changing. everyone has been saying this for months, even the designers. they wanted to get away from small armies of expensive stuff, and as a result, are geared to kill them. orks and tlos do this. you cant kill 180 orks with plasma guns, especially if theyre in cover. so guns with a higher rate of fire become better.
all it means is that you need to change your army a bit. it will take some a little longer to realise then others.
orks are over powered compared to the previous generation of army lists. when you learn the rules well and start to build armies that will work in them they will seem pretty balanced.
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Post by: Lorek
Orks do well at lower point levels, where they can load up on effective troop choices. Play a few games at 1500-2000 points and see how they do. The new Orks do force you to tool up a bit for anti-horde work.
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Post by: Sushicaddy
I disagree. the 180 boyz + 30 lootas + 2 meks is a good army, but it's rather boring to play, and has significant weaknesses.
additionally, so many ork players are playing this army that it is not hard to develop good tactics and strategies to use against them.
After a while they will begin to lose. A lot. Because everyone will know how to beat them. There are TON of viable units in the ork army other than the 30 ork mob. Trukk boys have their uses, warbikes and deff koptas have their uses. Battlewagons, and killa kans have thier uses. Kommando's and stormboyz have their uses, ec.
I think you will start to see ork armys with 2-3 30 boy squads + a mek, and then use their points for elites, fast attack and heavy support choices, rather than have ONLY mobs of 30 orks.
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Post by: sourclams
I just yesterday played a 2k game against a quasi Horde Ork army. My opponent had roughly 120 Boyz with some Mega Armoredz, 3 Trukks, a full squad of Lootas, and a squad of Shootas
I was playing Imperial Guard with 2 LRBTs, 1 LR Demolisher, a Hellhound, and lots and lots of las/flamer squads plus some rough riders and plasma vet squads in chimeras.
The masses of templates, and the new blast rules to scatter less and hit more models, killed roughly half of the boyz before they could close into combat. Once into combat, I simply kept my platoons spread enough that I could flame them twice but they could only ever assault one squad. The Hell Hound made its points back very quickly. By the end of Turn 6 I had him more or less tabled and had only lost about 1/3 of my force. The new consolidation rules definitely hurt assault heavy armies more than the Run rule aids them. Flamerthrowers also will undoubtedly see a huge rise in popularity.
So in short, yes, the day of 30 man ultra elite armies slinging AP2 at 24" is pretty much dead and gone if you want to be competitive.
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Post by: Phryxis
A lot of it has already been said... Templates are MUCH more lethal to horde forces like Orks. Fire volumes are going to go up. Orks may still be a top list, but there's a lot of trends running against them as well.
Don't forget the No Retreat rule. This is starting to look to me like the most overlooked change in 5e. It really hurts stuff like Gaunts and Orks that don't mind taking a beating as long as they take somebody with them, and are Fearless.
Normally you'd be happy to hit a squad of Space Marines, and lose, say, 3 Orks for every 2 Marines you kill. 18 points for 30, you're winning handily. But with No Retreat, losing the resolution means you lose even more models, and 3:2 quickly turns into 2:1, or 12 points for 15. It's a lot harder to sustain that level of inefficiency when you just had to run through HBolters and Frag Missiles for a turn or two.
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Post by: FuzzyOrb
Phryxis wrote:
Don't forget the No Retreat rule. This is starting to look to me like the most overlooked change in 5e. It really hurts stuff like Gaunts and Orks that don't mind taking a beating as long as they take somebody with them, and are Fearless.
Well, better than having them run away instantly because of the morale-penalities for loosing combat, isn't it?
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Post by: natedogg710
I agree with others, the game has changed some what and shifted away the MEQ focus for more horde armies (especially Orks). I don't think this shift will stay around for very long, if even half of the Space Marine 'dex rumors are true.
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Post by: open_sketchbook
I think the best part of all these horde armies combined with the new scatter rules and no partials is the basically ignored blast weapons are getting a new lease on life. Last weekend, I employed my Guard army's seven grenade launchers to hilarious effect against everything. They earned their 8 point value back several times simply by dropping templates on everything, as it was going to hit something no matter where it scattered. They did much much better than the plasma guns you're "supposed" to use with Guard.
The ork horde isn't invincible. Pick the most expensive mob in the front rank, put a ton of fire into it, rinse and repeat. Once their numbers begin to drop, they'll run like anyone else. If that doesn't work, form a two-tiered battle line and shoot them to pieces after they rip up the first line, as they won't be able to consolidate into you. Flamers are particularly good at this.
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Post by: Nurglitch
open_sketchbook:
Something that I used to do in 4th edition, that worked well and seems like it should work even better now, was stagger Imperial Guard squads with Grenade Launchers and Missile Launchers in front of Imperial Guard squads with Flamethrowers (sometimes ordinary squads, sometimes Veteran or Special Weapon squads). The Grenade Launcher and Missile Launcher would get their blasts in, and after the Orks hit, then the Flamethrowers would run up and spread out to lay down templates on the Ork mob. If the mob spread out during its consolidation, then all the better because it meant less template overkill.
Now that there's no worry about spacing your units so that they don't get consolidated into, and there's no template overkill, no partial hits, and so on, it should be pretty fun. Not to mention squads armed with Grenade Launchers can support an advance... 
Mind you, I did Flamethrowers and Grenade Launchers because that's what came in the Cadian box, but it worked and I'm looking forward to sweeping forward with a line of boomy-burny death the next time I break out my Chapter Serves PDF.
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Post by: Valhallan42nd
sourclams wrote:So in short, yes, the day of 30 man ultra elite armies slinging AP2 at 24" is pretty much dead and gone if you want to be competitive.
Amen for that.
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Post by: Nurglitch
Bring on the days of 32 Ork elite armies slinging AP3 at 24"!
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Post by: DaisukeAramecha
Any thoughts on a Tyranid response to the new Orks? I've been having difficulty fending off the boyz in CC and his Lootaz are chewing me up in a shooting match. With no kill-zone 'Stealers aren't hitting like they used to and PK's are dicing up my 'Fexes.
On top of it all the particular player in question has never failed to finish off a unit in CC on my turn, leaving himself plenty of time to move/shoot/assualt on his own turn. I'm not kidding about the never part either, in over 6 games it's gone that way every single time.
Any ideas?
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Post by: Nurglitch
Biovores will do nasty things to his Lootas, as well as just about anything that has Deep Strike. In combat, use your superior mobility to gang up and take his mobs down individually. Hormugaunts are an idea.
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Post by: Stelek
DaisukeAramecha wrote:Any thoughts on a Tyranid response to the new Orks? I've been having difficulty fending off the boyz in CC and his Lootaz are chewing me up in a shooting match. With no kill-zone 'Stealers aren't hitting like they used to and PK's are dicing up my 'Fexes.
On top of it all the particular player in question has never failed to finish off a unit in CC on my turn, leaving himself plenty of time to move/shoot/assualt on his own turn. I'm not kidding about the never part either, in over 6 games it's gone that way every single time.
Any ideas?
Barbed strangler and deathspitters send orks (and everyone else) on their way.
In 4E, I laughed at the strangler fexes.
Now, you don't laugh as much, so long as it's not just THREE of them.
Oh and CC fexes make Orks cry when you've got the hang of them.
6 MC are alot easier to move than 180 orks.
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Post by: Sarigar
Mine didn't feel like such a horde afterall. I ran a 1500 point Ork army at an RTT last weekend that totalled 109 models. A couple of things I noticed that was huge in 5th edition.
-I couldn't draw LOS through my Boyz mobs with my Lootas. There is just too much getting in the way. If you can't find hills/multi level ruins, LOS could be very tricky running 180 Boyz (I only had two squads of 30 Boyz in my list....and two squads of 14 Lootas)
-Terrain features can help bottleneck your Boyz, and like everyone else mentioned, blast weapons can get very irritating.
-Trying to fit that many Boyz into the deployment zone of Spearhead (table quarters) can be problematic.
-Finishing a tourney game in the time limit would be difficult (theorize at this point; we used 2 hour time limits and I finished every game on time).
-Painting 180 Boyz. This was the main reason I ran only 109 is b/c I was just tired of painting and took an expensive Flash Gitz squad just to paint less. This is one big reason I don't think you won't see too many Ork armies.
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Post by: Darrian13
No, you will lots of Orks at RTT's. You just won't see lot's of well painted Orks at RTT's
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Post by: DaisukeAramecha
Stelek and Nurglitch, thanks for the advice. I'm not much of a fan of the Nidzilla style list, but ganging up as much as possible may be my best bet in CC.
I'll give biovores a try again, they've been dodgy for me in the past, partly due to my terrible trend of scatter rolls.
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Post by: Stelek
I used to run Biovores and Zoanthropes in my very warrior heavy army back when they were beasts (all 3 months of it).
They were easier to use then than I think they are now, since everyone was trying to gun down the warriors...
Biovores don't imo warrant replacing a fex with two blast weapons. They just don't have the capability the fex ones do.
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Post by: Steelmage99
Orks might seem all powerfull now, but I believe that will change when people get the hang of them and stop making the same boring anti-MEQ armies.
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Post by: Dessel Ordo
I dunno, played a 500pt game against orks the other day, cleaned up pretty nicely. My custom Chapter has TYBB (true grit and counter attack in non-marine players terms) after a really sh!tty shooting fase with their two flamers (only 5 boyz hit, 3 killed) the 30 ork mob and my 10 man squad went at it for 3 turns, at the end, there were 4 orks left and no marines, but my second squad (las/plas) rapid fired them out, never even got to roll my big guns, it ended just like that.
las/plas arent dead yet, still need them for meqs and light vehicles that are a waste of a dev squads time, especially with how much more usefull the frag missle quasy-barrage to your hordes face tactic just got.
supperior troops in the stat line are still superior, you just need to learn how to propperly weild them, as has been stated in this thread several times already.
dont know how much longer my tactic will last tho, probbably gonna get nerfed in next dex... :(
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Post by: Sarigar
From my (limited) experience, my Ork army was a more dangerous shooting army and assault was mainly for clean up duty. With the amount of dice I was able to get, despite having a BS2, dropping units wasn't too terribly difficult.
Darrien13: I suppose you are right. My stating there won't be many Orks is a relative term. Last weekend, our tourney had 16 players, two of which fielded Orks. That's two Ork armies that may not have been there if there was not a new codex. From zero to two, that's a pretty impressive increase.
Locally, I've seen 3 others talk about building their Orks, but I'm the only one who seems to have gone through with it. The building and painting of so many models is stopping others right now.
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Post by: orchewer
Plus Orks only come 10 in a box, which I was really suprised to find out.
My submunition rounds make hordes cry now.
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Post by: Orc Town Grot
The New Ork Menace,
Will soon evolve from the mis-conceived, overcluttered 120+ ork list to far more balanced forces of around 70-80 and a better mix of Buggies Kannons and other things.
There is a misconception that the orks should be a "horde" that charges forward to the enemy. If you look at their rules this is the totally wrong way to run an ork list. Having only 3 initiative is a vast weakness for orks in CC. Orks need to be played laterally...side to side! The ork player should avoid running into enemy fire zones at all costs, and instead play a cautious flanking game with buggies running cover to snipe key targets, while kommandos sneak up from behind. The great ork assault is only dangerous within the magic 12" charge range because that allows the shooters AND the ferocious charge that makes shooter orks the best unit in the game at present for point cost. So the orks are supposed to manouver and draw the foe to get the other sucker to get close enough for the big WAARGH!
The best unit in the new codex is the Lootas. But they are static and can only offer one tactic of holding cover and denying territory (By shooting things that enter their covered arcs into tiny pieces) It is a damn fine tactic though in a game where every second fool thinks he is "supposed" to charge like the British at Balaclava way back there in the Crimean war!
If orc players delve deeper into their codex they soon understand that Buggies, Bikes, and Kommandos become vital to get something else happening.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Shock attack gun, and the fact that ork players can get 2 of these range 60" AP2 large template monsters! If the ork can roll a couple of 7's or 9's and scatter onto something this is serious POWER for 60 points.
If he rolls 2's and 4's though its hahaha!
A 12!!!!!! SHHHEEET! Man, my 60 point gun just "vanished" a thousand points worth of landraider full of terminators and the other guys Abaddon!
Look out for ork lists that have two SAGs, two squads of 10 lootas, Kommandos and a handful of buggies in addition to their troops.
It is a powerful force for the points cost.
Tyrannids are the army that already have the most obvious answer to new orks.....
6 carnifexes with barbed stranglers! That isn't cheesy though, that is just obvious. Hormagaunts also ruin all the best laid ork plans, cos they are so fast they can get in before the orks sneaky plans are ready to be hatched.
Tyrannids have always been a power-players dream army and they have plenty of things to win with! Ork Kommandos are nowhere as mean as the Brood Lord with his face hugging buddies! And no Ork HQ can cope with a Hive Tyrant in CC. So I think nid players just need to see a really well balanced ork list and then go shopping in their own codex because they are easiest the best set up to squash green skins without too much trouble.
For other armies big templates and flamers are going to be the obvious choice in ork extermination.
The nice thing is that orks were less than competitive and now they got some chances to do well! haha!
It will be a bit of re-education as guys find lists that can defeat orks and also fight ok versus nidzilla and the Tri Falcon, and Chaos lash list.
That is why GW is busy right now rewriting YOUR codex so that soon YOURS will be the most powerful army list on the block.
A beautiful, never ending cycle of re-invention.
Will I dump my present orks for Space Marines next month? MAY DO! Depends on exactly whats being offered this year!
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Post by: aburnflags
Orc Town Grot wrote:Will I dump my present orks for Space Marines next month? MAY DO! Depends on exactly whats being offered this year!
Dibs on his orks!
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Post by: Chimera_Calvin
@ Orc Town Grot.
You must be a Blood Axe player. You'd better not let any Goffs hear about your 'sneeky planz' or you'll be missing a lot of teef soon!!
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Post by: Darrian13
@Orc town grot, have you played the 5th ed missions yet? Due to the 5th ed missions, 5-6 squads of 30 boys is the best selection you can make for Orks. Theytake objectives, they are VERY hard to push off objectives and they are worth one KP. Your buggies and bikes idea creates alot of easy KP's that cannot hold objectives.
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Post by: MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy
70-80 Orks?
At 1750 marine players will be approaching 70-80 lol
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Post by: sourclams
Not 70-80, but certainly 40-50. Running 70-80 marines would pretty much gimp you for anything but fighting a giant mob of Sluggas.
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Post by: Stelek
Don't let 'em get ya down, Ork town grot.
I believe in that list you describe.
It's done very well for itself in 5E.
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Post by: Orc Town Grot
I can see that 180 orcs is always going to be troublesome for opponents to chew through. They won't break quickly and they will sure occupy the whole table top. You can deploy the army like the spokes of a wheel with the tail of each squad close to a Big Mek with the force field gizmo and the whole army will have 5+ cover saves. You can field Ghazghkull and ride a double waargh and you still have enough points for other things.
I'm wondering though if the all infantry horde is going to offer much tactical dimension to game play. Just because things are possible doesn't always make them interesting.
Not to mention in tournament play, needing to paint near 200 models! Yeeks!
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Post by: Sarigar
I probably won't go the route of painting another 60 Boyz at this point. But, at 1500 points, my opponents are having a hard time against 109 in my list.
One mission that I've found difficult to win, but easy to tie is where we each have one objective in our own deployment zone. If Snikrot comes out too early, I've pretty much lost all chances at going for a win.
I do agree that the Orks can be a very shooty army which shocks a lot of folks. Assault for me is just clean up or a counter assault.
Lots of buggies, however, I'm not sold on. Easy Kill Points.
Overall, building the Orks (or any list) means building a list that can be competitive when playing any mission (as opposed to building vs. MEQ, Eldar, Godzilla etc... . This is proving tough in 5th edition. Playing 180 Boyz is one build that seems to do this, but you have to play very, very fast (in a tourney setting). For my army, my Orks really shine on turns 4+. My opponents have already done their worse and I still have a ton of firepower left. They just get whittled down. If I can't get past turn 4, I won't have the ability to win big. I may win or draw, but if there become multiple objectives in 5th edition tourneys, I need every turn to play. This is probably the main reason I won't run 180 Boyz.
And yes, I agree about the Shokk Attack Gun. It's been a blast to play and usually does very well for me.
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Post by: Da Boss
I have the models to do the 180 ork horde (been collecting greenies since the tail end of second edition) and they're all painted to a reasonable standard (I could do with inking some of my more basic paintjobs from 10 years ago).
But I hate running the horde. It's tedious, it can only really do one thing, and it hurts my lower back. I'm looking for ways to run orks that are interesting- using battlewagons to transport biggish mobs looks fun.
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Post by: Stelek
Da Boss wrote:I have the models to do the 180 ork horde (been collecting greenies since the tail end of second edition) and they're all painted to a reasonable standard (I could do with inking some of my more basic paintjobs from 10 years ago).
But I hate running the horde. It's tedious, it can only really do one thing, and it hurts my lower back. I'm looking for ways to run orks that are interesting- using battlewagons to transport biggish mobs looks fun.
lol yeah, I stopped running hordes as I got older. Pain in the body.
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Post by: Darrian13
Might I suggest you guys mix a little exercise into your, otherwise sedentary lifestyles. It might help you better endure the grueling RTT scene. Your low back issues will probably clear right up.
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Post by: Da Boss
Hah. I do sit ups and press ups every day, and I swim about 1K twice a week. I also run everywhere most of the time. I'm very fit. I just don't like having to spend that long stooped over the table.
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Post by: Darrian13
Try mixing in hyperextensions, deadlifts and maybe some lowrows just to help out that weak back of yours.
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Post by: kid_happy
Darrian13 wrote:Try mixing in hyperextensions, deadlifts and maybe some lowrows just to help out that weak back of yours.
Could be his height, as well. I run an ork horde and at 6'2" most game tables are just too low for me to stand at hours....
cheers
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Post by: Da Boss
Cheers for the advice.
I think my core strength probably nowhere near my cardiovascular fitness, which could be part of the problem.
Horde is still annoying to run though  .
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Post by: Darrian13
LOL, I have always wanted to steer gaming threads into fitness threads. Who says the two are always incompatable?
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Post by: Dessel Ordo
... back to defunking the orkhammer myth now...
...
...
...
...
yea, the thing with buggies is that they are really only tank-shock engines, I mean, I played a 500pt game where the greensikin player had 3 buggies and a mob of 20 or so. My eldar buddy played the same list. Over the two games the buggies actually shot 4 times, and they all tried to shoot at least 3 times in each game (then were relegated to tank-shocking my devs or my buddies reapers into uselessness.) rokits are for riding not shooting, thats something the players in my area have realized, and yes, a guardian doing a heroic stand against a buggy can in fact make it explode, lolz. Also, there will likely be a lot more peices of terrain laying around a table with the way 5th changed things, which means buggies need to be really carecull trying to go through (they break easy) or waste the time to go around.
I also played against lootas in that game, but orky shootery is on par with that of a Stormtrooper (star wars), so while they are dangerous, they can also do next to nothing, and have a good chance of doing so due to squad size.
just some things I've noticed
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Post by: Stelek
I don't use TL Rokkits on my warbuggies.
Thus, my warbuggies fire alot more than 4 shots.
I can put out 27 S5 shots and 135 S7 shots at 48".
What's your army do?
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Post by: Dessel Ordo
... thats alot of shots, but how many actually shoot? and is that just on the buggies, or the whole army? (I have yet to try to count how many shots my marines could put out if my footlogger safh list could put out at full strength, with everyone within range to fire their max, may have to try that)
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Post by: Darrian13
You can't tank shock with buggies because thay are not tanks.
When my army faces your Orks, it quickly acrues 9KP's for killing your 9 A:10 open topped death traps. Those 9 easy KP's equal the KP total of my entire Ork army. Good times! BTW, I have upto 135 S:7 shots in my army too.
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Post by: Stelek
Darrian13 wrote:When my army faces your Orks, it quickly acrues 9KP's for killing your 9 A:10 open topped death traps. Those 9 easy KP's equal the KP total of my entire Ork army. Good times! BTW, I have upto 135 S:7 shots in my army too.
Quite amusing, really.
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Post by: FlatlanderBoss2.0
I for one have no issues fielding 180 well-painted orks
Might help I've been painting the bums for 20 years. Literally. I just now got to 180.
Call it auspicious if you'd like. Maybe it's karma. Either way. I ain't complaining.
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Post by: sebster
Wildstorm wrote:So has 5th turned into rock/paper/scissor armies?
Everything else has been answered pretty well so I thought I'd just comment on this question.
Competitive games at low points levels tend towards extreme armies and paper/rock/scissors. There’s nothing new about this, at 600 points you’re best off focussing your army on one thing, whether it’s ork boyz, a couple of carnifex or a land raider or whatever, and just hoping the other guy didn’t bring anything capable of killing that.
As games increase in points value people are able to take a wider range of guns, but there always has been, and probably always will be, some element of paper/rock/scissors in the game.
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Post by: sourclams
Even then, however, it still seems to be rock, paper, scissors. Spamming many of one type of unit does better than having a diverse mix of many types of unit because a specialist list (i.e. Triple Landraider, Nidzilla, Ork Horde) quickly exhausts countering elements in a generalist list (one land raider, one devastator squad, one assault squad, one terminator squad, etc).
Slugga Orks (spammed models) is arguably better than Dark Eldar Raider Squadrons (spammed mech/heavy weapons) is arguably better than Nidzilla (spammed TMCs) is arguably better than Slugga Orks. They each field an exhaustive and therefore un-counterable amount of a certain viable unit.
On the other hand, any of these lists is better than generic Marines equipped with generic weapons. Roughly 1/3 of the generic Marines will be affective against each list, and 2/3 will stand around holding their puds while the opposing army annihilates that 1/3 of their force and leisurely strolls through the ineffective 2/3.
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Post by: Stelek
Wait, are you saying Hurr = Puds?
I think you just insulted Puds everywhere, kind sir! 
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Post by: Darkness
After reading this thread I think a lot of the nay-sayers are under the wrong impression of the new Orks. The new Ork style that has been creeping up in tourneys(and won the Invitational at Adepticon) are shooty armies.
Orks are no longer the army that barrels at you intent on HTH. Now they wither you down with an extreme weight of shots and mop up in HTH.
30-45 lootas is horrendous to fight. And sure Orks hit on 5's but a mob of 30 throwing down shootas and big shootas still does a lot of damage.
Orks are going to be a tough cookie in 5th. I predict them to win Vegas.
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Post by: Stelek
Wait, are you saying MY kind of Ork army is ze best?
LOL!
Well, I like 4 pklaw trukk tank busta squads, 3xlootas, 3xwarbuggies. If I run into LR, and I can't kill 'em...well, they can't kill me either. lol
It's a crazy amount of shooting.
Hold on, need my 2nd brick...no, this is just for this unit, why?
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Post by: Darrian13
@Flatlander boss, If your Orks are painted up to the same standard as your traitor guard, that is a beautiful bunch of Orks. I had the pleasure of facing you at the Gladiator with my Mech Eldar. Your army was beautiful. I really loved the baneblade.
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Post by: Teek
When my army faces your Orks, it quickly acrues 9KP's for killing your 9 A:10 open topped death traps.
Don't you mean 3 KPs? If you're facing 9 buggies, it's going to be 3 quads of 3. Three units, 3 KPs.
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Post by: Stelek
He was raging at me, but I hope he did.
Unless I can run 3x3x3, in which case I'd run 3x3x9 lol. 27 buggies ftw!
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Post by: sebster
sourclams wrote:Even then, however, it still seems to be rock, paper, scissors. Spamming many of one type of unit does better than having a diverse mix of many types of unit because a specialist list (i.e. Triple Landraider, Nidzilla, Ork Horde) quickly exhausts countering elements in a generalist list (one land raider, one devastator squad, one assault squad, one terminator squad, etc).
Slugga Orks (spammed models) is arguably better than Dark Eldar Raider Squadrons (spammed mech/heavy weapons) is arguably better than Nidzilla (spammed TMCs) is arguably better than Slugga Orks. They each field an exhaustive and therefore un-counterable amount of a certain viable unit.
On the other hand, any of these lists is better than generic Marines equipped with generic weapons. Roughly 1/3 of the generic Marines will be affective against each list, and 2/3 will stand around holding their puds while the opposing army annihilates that 1/3 of their force and leisurely strolls through the ineffective 2/3.
As you increase the points level you increase your range of guns and gain some kind of counter to each type of specialist army. But you are right, P/R/S is always there, and is probably unavoidable in the current 40K ruleset.
It’s my number one reason for keeping to friendly games. Too many times I set up for competitive game only to know the result before deployment, because either me or my opponent had gotten lucky in army creation and bulked up on something the other guy couldn't take out.
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Post by: biztheclown
Perhaps this kind of misunderstanding is the core of the "I hate killpoints" problem. lol
Stelek is pretty much going to get shots with his big shoota buggies all the time. He can move 12" and fire 36". Why wouldn't he get most of the shots? And as far as you just blowing them up, I ask you with what? With your long range shooting? With your deep strikers? Because he is not going to just drive them right up to your rapid fire range like the rokkit buggies you see. 36"
In 4th ed I ran 4 skorcha buggies and 2 rokkit buggies, but I like rokkits. For 5th, I am considering stelek's buggy build and people are really being knee jerk if they ignore it.
I think people who are lamenting the "competitive" style of gaming should just realize that there is a great system for checking out your assumptions. Organize a big game, Apocalypse or otherwise, by personally choosing both armies for a good gaming experience. Then invite people over and roll for teams. If you cannot balance a game like this, then don't rant about game balance on the interwerbz.
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Post by: Darrian13
@Biz, My Ork army has 120 shoota boyz that will be in range by turn 2. I also have 45 lootas that will be busy killing his lootas on turn 1-2 and then mopping up his mobile deathtraps on turn 3. I hope you agree that a range of 48 should be enough to find those buggies.
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Post by: Stelek
They will? Hmmm.
12" + 6" + D6" + 6 + 18" = maybe not, and if I'm running a refused flank, I certainly hope they aren't.
Besides, in a ork shooty vs ork shooty game, it really depends on the scenario and who gets to go first.
I know, I've won and lost against a list just like yours. I prefer mine, because if I get to go first I can first strike all of your lootas to death. You on the other hand, may not be so lucky since you have to rely on the lootas (aka luck) to kill my units.
You do know that going second against the Ork horde in many missions is what wins the game, yes?
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Post by: Virulent
It sounds as though it could really go either way here as both ork builds have both strong and weak points. It really does seem to boil down to turn choice and scenario.
However, I'm leaning more towards Stelek's corner as Darrian's repeated assumption that Buggy's are nothing more then "mobile deathtraps" hurts his credibility a bit.
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Post by: Darrian13
@Virulent, it is not an assumption, it is experience. I have buggies. Would you like to buy them?
9 buggies cost 270 points they produce 15 S:5 hits aturn if they all can fire. That causes 10 wounds to MEQ and 3.3 dead marines a turn on average. Wow!
For 250 points I will take 30 shoota boyz that are far more survivable and are troops and, although have a shorter range, will be able to kill about the same number of marines on average. They will also be able to win close combat and be able to take objectives.
979
Post by: Virulent
Sorry, I don't own an Ork army myself, otherwise I might. I'm assuming since you hate them so much they're practically free? Could make some nice bits I suppose.
5164
Post by: Stelek
I have 100 extra boyz, Darrian. Want to buy them?
Everyone's experience is different.
I prefer buggies because they shoot you from my board edge.
Ork boyz don't do that. Yes, they do other things, but they don't do that. In a loota heavy army, you are already standing off.
You can also stop other vehicles with buggies, which is very helpful in 5E where you cannot push my vehicles out of the way anymore--something that Ork armies will learn to fear when they get corralled into template heaven by a vehicle heavy army, and destroyed in short order.
Mech tau, mech IG, mech Sisters...they all can force you into pockets of 'zomg 25 hits'. This is horrible for Orks.
I'm sure you have some hidden tactic that you think will work wonders, but honestly--vehicles are very good, very hard to stop, and if you think you can stop a vehicle horde from overrunning your position AND killing you in a turn...well, I beg to differ.
Just curious really, why do you keep mentioning marines? It's not marines Orks have to worry about. It's everyone else. All the other armies kill tons of Marines with T4 and a 3+ save. At best, you get a 3+ save by pinning yourself. Else, you have T4 and a 4+ save.
It doesn't matter if you can kill marines if you die to everything else. Lootas are powerful, and hard to shift with a hundred orks in front of them--but that's just a serious problem for marines. For everyone else, they have a solution to what Orks do.
I don't know why you discount how good TL big shootas on buggies are, maybe you just see everything by itself. Or you are comfortable with 120 orks and don't think it's a liability to have big unwieldy 'template me please' squads.
Play your army, and let a 3 LR/3 Hellhound army shoot first. Tell us what's left of your army after. Lootas? Which kill the Hellhounds, then your troops are wiped by the LR and what's left? S7 vs AV14? Yes please.
Against my army, only the LR are threats and I'm not packed (especially not in spearhead, lol!) in tight enough to care if they get 3 orks or a buggy under the template.
You can call mobile firepower bad, and troops packed in good. I can't see it, I've played the Ork horde at least 20 times now with all of my armies and I think I've lost to it twice. I've won with my Ork army after I went from horde to mobile shooting a hell of a lot better.
Did you know that 2 Trukk squads of orks pretty well wipes out a 30 Ork boyz squad, and the 9 buggies and 3 loota squads kill 2 more? That's one turn, and I've killed alot of your 180 orks (which in 1750, you don't have if you have 3 full loota squads). In 1750, I can table all your troops choices in a turn.
This isn't a personal attack on you, Darrian. I'm just relating my experiences. If you relate yours, instead of speaking in generalities, maybe everyone can understand.
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Post by: Darrian13
No I do not want to buy them. I have 180, where were you with this offer 6 months ago?
Your big shoota buggies are very inefficient at stopping vehicles due to their S:5 weapons. I guess you can mass fire a rhino into shakenness but so what?
If you think racing your vehicle heavy list into the teeth of my ork horde is a great atctic, then I need to play you.
I use MEQ's as the baseline for unit effectiveness because MEQ's are still the most popular lists seen. Maybe Utah is different, but I doubt it.
I have faced 6 armies so far with my Ork horde that fielded 3 pie plates each (4 IG and 2 marines). The KFF and 4+ cover has always done my army very well as I have tabled 3 of the 6 and convincingly defeated the other 3.
I have played against the 3 LR/3hh list and I tabled it. Week one of the current season So Cal GW league.
I have played my Orks a few less times than you but I have yet to lose or even have a close game.
If you are planning on assaulting my 30 man squads with your trukk squads, that is great. You may beat the first squad with your trukkboys but then the trukkboys die. Your combined 9 buggies and 45 lootas will average 18 dead orks a turn, not quite the 60 that you claim. (but I am only looking at the averages). My lootas will be targeting your lootas while you are shooting my boys. The 12 1/2 wounds I put on the loota squads will destroy one squad per turn. Most of my games are 2000 points, so please take the extra 250 points into account.
I don't take this as a personal attack from you. I really like this "kinder and gentler act of yours" I hope with continued practice it can become your normal persona. I find it very refreshing, if a little unexpected.
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Post by: Stelek
I've driven Marines into hiding locally. I admit it.
4+ Cover save from the KFF? Why do you get that? The Codex says you get a 5+. What'd I miss? You get the 4+ cover save on vehicles, because it says you are obscured yes?
Sorry, been seeing that alot and I cannot for the life of me find the rules that support it.
I think you misunderstand how my army works against a horde ork army.
I will explain how I run it, and we'll see if it makes sense.
Your lootas are generally 6-8" in, because well it's a pita to deploy them further forward because that's where boyz go.
If you went first and are covering the whole board, I should be setup in a refused flank.
If I went first, I'm still setup in a refused flank.
So let's say I get to go first.
I move my warbuggies and my trukks forward. Well, not really forward...but just into position so you can't shoot me on turn 1 with your shootas. Call it the shuffle 24.1" away.
Buggies in front of trukks, so my trukks get saves from your shooting. It's not great, but it's something.
I tend to lock my trukks in so they can't go anywhere if they blow up, they cannot be assaulted, and my ork boyz will just get out behind the trukk if it's taken out.
I open fire on your Lootas with my Lootas, and my Warbuggies. Not only am I doing more damage than you do to me, but I have more units to fire with than you do.
You move forward. You run. Now you are a foot away from your lootas, more or less. There should now be one unit of lootas dead.
Now you fire. One of my loota units dies, or mostly dies. Or, you can take out 2 of my Trukks if you really want to.
Now it's time for the shoota horde to sit and shoot at me. I should still be out of range of them with everything but the Trukk boyz, whose only job is to go out and give two of your squads a thumping.
IF you shot at my lootas with your lootas, I have 4 trukk squads standing around. I suppose you could have fire rokkits at me and maybe blown one up. Not good odds really. So we'll just stick with you ran forward first turn.
My 2nd turn goes like this:
The 4 trukk squads suicide themselves into 2 of your squads. Those 2 squads are most likely dead now. I'm stuck out in the open.
I shoot another loota squad dead. I still have enough firepower to do it. (My 4 trukks are another 4 big shootas, btw.)
So now you have 2 units of orks and 1 loota unit left.
I've got 4 trukks, 9 buggies, a pair of loota squads, and 4 trukk boy squads standing around.
This is how it's gone. You can't waagh into my lootas, not yet. You can't ignore the trukk squads. If you don't shoot/assault them, they will do to you what charging orks do to non-charging orks.
I can move my trukks and my warbuggies to 36", and so long as my worthless grot squad is sitting in the back on my objective--I will control an objective, and in the end...you won't.
Turn 3, you remove one of my units with lootas. Possibly two more with shootas. Maybe a mass assault will take away all my trukk squads, but the problem is--if you shoot anything with your shootas, you will kill it and be unable to assault. You might be out of range. After all, trukks give me a long assault...toss in the waagh and my post combat consolidation, and getting away from 60 orks isn't difficult.
At any rate, what usually happens is:
Horde gets tabled.
I have a loota unit, my warbuggies, and my grots. Trukks usually survive, because they are the weakest thing in the army. You want to focus on KPs? Go ahead. I will kill you faster if you do. They are red herrings.
You have 9 KP, I think you said?
I lose 2x loota, 4x trukk squads, and you have to kill every single trukk to get +1 KP over me.
Just been my experience. My army looks frail, and it is. The problem I see is, you cannot kill enough of me with your limited targets before I kill you with my wider range of shooting available.
For example, when you have 4 lootas left--why fire another loota unit at it? You HAVE to. I can fire my warbuggies, and that will usually finish them off. If not, I'll fire a trukk at the last loota. I can still fire more units at your fire base, and I'm only 1/3 done with my shooting.
So I can kill more Orks than you can, that can effectively shoot me back on my primary shooting elements. Please note I am quite certain two trukk boyz squads will kill a thirty man boyz squad if I get the charge.
I could care less if you kill all 4 trukks and all 4 trukk squads. I will still table a ork horde by shooting it off the table. Then what?
Why don't you run my army vs your army in various missions, and see how it works? You should play someone as good as yourself, of course.
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Post by: Darrian13
Stelek wrote:I've driven Marines into hiding locally. I admit it.
-Sure you have.
4+ Cover save from the KFF? Why do you get that? The Codex says you get a 5+. What'd I miss? You get the 4+ cover save on vehicles, because it says you are obscured yes?
-I wrote, " KFF and 4+ cover" you see terrain in 5th provides 4+ cover and I like to put my boyz in it as mauc as possible to help out with their 6+ saves.
Sorry, been seeing that alot and I cannot for the life of me find the rules that support it.
I think you misunderstand how my army works against a horde ork army.
-No, I have faced shooty mech lists before, yours is nothing special.
I will explain how I run it, and we'll see if it makes sense.
-Ok
Your lootas are generally 6-8" in, because well it's a pita to deploy them further forward because that's where boyz go.
-In Pitched Battle and Dawn of War yes, Spearhead no.
If you went first and are covering the whole board, I should be setup in a refused flank.
-Kinda hard to fit 45 lootas and 13 vehicles in 36 inches of deployment zone and impossible in Spearhead but ok. I hope that you are putting your lootas behind your vehicles, if so all I have to do is stun, immobilize or destroy your A:10 open topped deathtraps and I will negate your lootas until you can get unblocked.
If I went first, I'm still setup in a refused flank.
-See above for comments
And since you are set up first, I will deploy my lootas in such a way that at least one of your squads will be out of range of my lootas while all of my lootas will be in range of your lootas. If there is any terrain that blocks LOS, and 25% of it should, all the better for my boyz.
So let's say I get to go first.
I move my warbuggies and my trukks forward. Well, not really forward...but just into position so you can't shoot me on turn 1 with your shootas. Call it the shuffle 24.1" away.
Buggies in front of trukks, so my trukks get saves from your shooting. It's not great, but it's something.
I tend to lock my trukks in so they can't go anywhere if they blow up, they cannot be assaulted, and my ork boyz will just get out behind the trukk if it's taken out.
I open fire on your Lootas with my Lootas, and my Warbuggies. Not only am I doing more damage than you do to me, but I have more units to fire with than you do.
-See above comments regarding my deployment of lootas.
You move forward. You run. Now you are a foot away from your lootas, more or less. There should now be one unit of lootas dead.
Now you fire. One of my loota units dies, or mostly dies. Or, you can take out 2 of my Trukks if you really want to.
-Look at field, If any of your trukks are now blocking LOS for your lootas, the trukks get hit, otherwise it is the lootas on your exposed loota squad that I have in range of all my lootas. I then put 12 rokkits on your trukks and hit 4 times causing 3 pens and your trukks are no longer the threat to get off a coordinated round 2 assault on my boyz who will be looking to get in the cover that is available to them.
Now it's time for the shoota horde to sit and shoot at me. I should still be out of range of them with everything but the Trukk boyz, whose only job is to go out and give two of your squads a thumping.
IF you shot at my lootas with your lootas, I have 4 trukk squads standing around. I suppose you could have fire rokkits at me and maybe blown one up. Not good odds really. So we'll just stick with you ran forward first turn.
-No running for me in this turn thanks, just shooting.
My 2nd turn goes like this:
The 4 trukk squads suicide themselves into 2 of your squads. Those 2 squads are most likely dead now. I'm stuck out in the open.
-More like your 2 trukks that are mobile can rush a single squad that is not in cover and kill it while losing roughly 8 guys from one of the 2 squads.
I shoot another loota squad dead. I still have enough firepower to do it. (My 4 trukks are another 4 big shootas, btw.)
-See deployment of lootas again.
So now you have 2 units of orks and 1 loota unit left.
-No, 3 units of orks and 2 lootas, a mek with a KFF and klaw and warboss on foot.
I've got 4 trukks, 9 buggies, a pair of loota squads, and 4 trukk boy squads standing around.
-You have 2-3 trukks, 9 buggies, a piar of lootas(one of which is probably not in range of my lootas.) 3 1/3 trukkboyz.
-I shoot the second loota squad of yours and kill 8 if you are in cover otherwise 17.
I shoot both of the trukkboyz squads that are in the open with 2 of my boyz in cover killing the wounded squad and knocking the other to 4 models. My third squad moves up and shoots a trukk in range (hopefully the one alive with boyz still in it.) getting 3 glances and a rokkit pen. That deathtrap is now gone and the boys inside are out in the open.
-You have 1 full loota squad outside of range of my lootas, a loota squad at 7 models that may or may not have run off the table. 1-2 trukks, 9 buggies and 2 squads of boyz.
This is how it's gone. You can't waagh into my lootas, not yet. You can't ignore the trukk squads. If you don't shoot/assault them, they will do to you what charging orks do to non-charging orks.
-I am very happy with the game so far 4KP's to 2 and it will only get worse.
I can move my trukks and my warbuggies to 36", and so long as my worthless grot squad is sitting in the back on my objective--I will control an objective, and in the end...you won't.
Turn 3, you remove one of my units with lootas. Possibly two more with shootas. Maybe a mass assault will take away all my trukk squads, but the problem is--if you shoot anything with your shootas, you will kill it and be unable to assault. You might be out of range. After all, trukks give me a long assault...toss in the waagh and my post combat consolidation, and getting away from 60 orks isn't difficult.
-Do you move the lootas that are out of range of my lootas or do you shoot at boys in cover? YOur buggies still put 1o wounds on one of my squads and I save 3-5 of them depending on which squad. Do you charge the squad that is still in the open with the remainder of your trukkboyz? Maybe you do and get lucky and kill the squad but lose another in the process.
-I shoot up the last boyz squad of yours with my 2 squads that are still at full strength in cover. My lootas destroy your last 2 trukks and you have 1 1/2 loota squads and 9 buggies and some grots. So far I am not too impressed with your army and you went first.
At any rate, what usually happens is:
Horde gets tabled.
-Not if there is terrain on that table.
I have a loota unit, my warbuggies, and my grots. Trukks usually survive, because they are the weakest thing in the army. You want to focus on KPs? Go ahead. I will kill you faster if you do. They are red herrings.
You have 9 KP, I think you said?
I lose 2x loota, 4x trukk squads, and you have to kill every single trukk to get +1 KP over me.
Just been my experience. My army looks frail, and it is. The problem I see is, you cannot kill enough of me with your limited targets before I kill you with my wider range of shooting available.
-Fallacy.
For example, when you have 4 lootas left--why fire another loota unit at it? You HAVE to. I can fire my warbuggies, and that will usually finish them off. If not, I'll fire a trukk at the last loota. I can still fire more units at your fire base, and I'm only 1/3 done with my shooting.
So I can kill more Orks than you can, that can effectively shoot me back on my primary shooting elements. Please note I am quite certain two trukk boyz squads will kill a thirty man boyz squad if I get the charge.
I could care less if you kill all 4 trukks and all 4 trukk squads. I will still table a ork horde by shooting it off the table. Then what?
Why don't you run my army vs your army in various missions, and see how it works? You should play someone as good as yourself, of course.
-I think you should try some games with terrain and see how that affects your shooting lanes for your refused flank and see what happens when your opponent actually deploys correctly. I will play afriend of mine who does have an army like yours this week and I will let you know. Let me know what happens when you play with terrain and an opponent that plays shooty Ork horde not just assault Ork horde.
LMK
Thanks for the reply though. Now I better understand how you get things so messed up tacticly. Please keep replies on this hypothetical battle to the hypothetical battle, don't go changing your hypothetical army or its deploymet on me.
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Post by: Stelek
Can you edit that so it's readable? Yes, cut and paste those quote markers!
Then I can take a looksee.
I'll take a pic of the usual terrain I play on in 5E this weekend. Then we can pichammer!
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Post by: Virulent
lol. So much underlying sarcasm and venom it's crazy.
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Post by: Stelek
Virulent wrote:lol. So much underlying sarcasm and venom it's crazy.
Not from me, actually.
3643
Post by: budro
Both builds are useable and can win given a good player. Talking about what would and wouldn't happen in an entire game using mathhammer is rather useless. Odds on dice don't avg out during a single game, terrain is totally random, and with vehicles on the board terrain and LOS can change during the game anyway.
It's useless to post about which army would dominate the other. Until it's played out on the field it doesn't matter anyway. Or we could just invite these two to analyse all the match ups for the GTs, the players could go have a drink at the nearest pub while they figure out the winner. Why play when it's already determined by force selection anyway? /sarcasm
Buggies are useful. An army built around them is dangerous IMO, but definitely fun to play with. I perfer a more hybrid list with a strong core of foot troops, but that's just what works for me.
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Post by: Darrian13
@Budro, you have a great idea! Stelek and I should do a play by play commentary at the GT's It could be like the old Saturday Night Live news bit "Point Counterpoint" I would play the part of Dan Ackroyd.
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Post by: Stelek
I wanna be Dennis Miller!
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Post by: WC_Brian
I like how Stelek is lets assume I go first. What happens when he goes second?
Can Steleks Lootas even see Darrians Lootas through all the Orks in between?
If not it sounds like Darrian gets to paste Steleks vehicles while Steleks Lootas just waste time shooting 5+ KFF Orks.
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Post by: Stelek
I actually prefer to go second, Brian.
So I can setup an alpha strike on a loota unit, refuse a flank, and in general have an easier time of winning.
If he wants to do the two-step, I won't mind. I'll kill the Ork Boyz instead.
My Vehicles are actually pretty low to the ground, lower than the height of an Ork. Trukks are freebies to pretty much everyone.
Sounds like more negativity from someone who doesn't run Orks, did you want to correct my opinion?
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Post by: Darrian13
I think Stelek and I have discussed this as far as we can on an online forum. Without actually playing this game out and me demonstrating how wrong he is, any further speculation is pointless.
I do like Budro's idea of play by play though.
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Post by: Stelek
No no, you've got it all wrong.
We have to play so I can demonstrate how wrong you are!
1986
Post by: thehod
There should be a new event at GTs/Adepticon: 40K Debates
We can have Darrian vs Stelek and Yak can be the moderator
I think it would be a very illuminating discussion
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Post by: Lorek
I'd prefer them to play series of games, to help balance out any "luck" factor.
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Post by: Darrian13
I would love to do it. You coming to Adepticon next year Stelek?
But, somehow Yak will probably have the best time moderating/commentating on it.
3643
Post by: budro
What I'd like to see is a breakdown of the game and what the outcome is going to be BEFORE the game is played for all first round matchups are played and who the winner is going to be.
And then we'll see who does the better "analysis".
And it should definitely be in an SNL format.
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Post by: Stelek
Darrian13 wrote:I would love to do it. You coming to Adepticon next year Stelek?
But, somehow Yak will probably have the best time moderating/commentating on it.
I do plan on it. Not sure what events I want to play in, and which ones I want to help judge.
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Post by: Democratus
Darrian13 wrote:@Budro, you have a great idea! Stelek and I should do a play by play commentary at the GT's It could be like the old Saturday Night Live news bit "Point Counterpoint" I would play the part of Dan Ackroyd.
Jane, you ignorant slut!
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Post by: Darrian13
God, I loved the old SNL. So good! There is NO WAY that that could get away with the scripts they used back then.
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Post by: WC_Brian
Stelek wrote:
Sounds like more negativity from someone who doesn't run Orks, did you want to correct my opinion?
I see negativity = criticism in Stelek speak.
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Post by: WC_Brian
Darrian13 wrote:I think Stelek and I have discussed this as far as we can on an online forum. Without actually playing this game out and me demonstrating how wrong he is, any further speculation is pointless.
I would lay odds on Darrian winning.
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Post by: Stelek
So was that criticism, or negativity, Brian?
Yeah.
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Post by: Darrian13
No, that was wisdom.
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Post by: Stelek
lol got me on that one!
5023
Post by: Democratus
In my area, the Ork terror has been Nob Biker spam. These guys are really starting to make an impact at the tournament scene. Multi-wound-model units with armor, cover, and invulnerable saves plus Feel No Pain are rediculously tough to destroy. Their high mobility allows them to dictate the location and pace of the battle - and the ability to differentiate the equipment of various models means that wounds can be spread out to avoid loosing models.
Maybe horde armies can handle this force well. But the 'elite' type armies are really struggling, my CSM included.
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Post by: 40kenthusiast
Without wading into the Stelek vs. Darrian13 style of Ork debate, I'll add my voice to the choir confirming the Ork's ascendancy. In my view they currently rule 40k. There isn't a list that can beat them and remain competitive vs. the rest of the field.
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Post by: Redbeard
After playing a 5th ed tournament this weekend, I have to agree as well.
It kind of makes me sad, because I took up orks at the time when everyone said they couldn't win, and there was a kind of "let's show 'em" mentality among the handful of us who'd try and run them at tournaments. There were only three ork players at the 2007 Adepticon Gladiator.
Now, they're the flavour of the edition, and all over the place. They're going to get the same rep as nidzilla or tri-falcon.
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Post by: Stelek
40kenthusiast wrote:Without wading into the Stelek vs. Darrian13 style of Ork debate, I'll add my voice to the choir confirming the Ork's ascendancy. In my view they currently rule 40k. There isn't a list that can beat them and remain competitive vs. the rest of the field.
You really think that?
My Eldar haven't had a problem with Orks yet.
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Post by: nathonicus
Well, I've beaten and been beaten by 5th Orks with my 'take all comers' IG, and it does fine vs. other armies as well.
If IG can do it, anyone can!
I'm half kidding on that - I do think that orks are extremely good, but remember, Space Marines are coming out with a 5th ed. codex that will be very strong, hopefully the IG will be strong as well, Chaos has plenty of very sick potential, and Eldar are still incredibly strong.
The 5th ed. codexes are having to up the power of armies to deal with the things that were over-powered. They either had to nerf Tyranids and Eldar, or power-up everything else.
I expect that Space Marines, IG, DE, and the rest of the new codexes will have plenty of good anti-hoard options.
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Post by: Greebynog
Redbeard wrote:After playing a 5th ed tournament this weekend, I have to agree as well.
It kind of makes me sad, because I took up orks at the time when everyone said they couldn't win, and there was a kind of "let's show 'em" mentality among the handful of us who'd try and run them at tournaments. There were only three ork players at the 2007 Adepticon Gladiator.
Now, they're the flavour of the edition, and all over the place. They're going to get the same rep as nidzilla or tri-falcon.
Damn right Redbeard, I couldn't agree more, in fact I had a thread in dakka discussions to this effect a while back. I was once the only ork player at an 80 strong tournie at Warhammer World, and came 4th. It was a proud moment.
I do hope it doens't go that way, that orks are considered cheese-monsters, but the wave of new players they're getting will die down soon enough when the new flavour of the month comes along, so I'm not worried. I am worried about seeing an uprise in 'orky'* conversions from people new to them.
*read: crap.
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Post by: budro
You already see craptacular conversions in ork armies, so nothing new there - except maybe more of it.
But once the new beakies come out, we'll probably see a drop off in new ork players.
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Post by: sourclams
nathonicus wrote:Well, I've beaten and been beaten by 5th Orks with my 'take all comers' IG, and it does fine vs. other armies as well.
If IG can do it, anyone can!
I'm half kidding on that - I do think that orks are extremely good, but remember, Space Marines are coming out with a 5th ed. codex that will be very strong, hopefully the IG will be strong as well, Chaos has plenty of very sick potential, and Eldar are still incredibly strong.
The 5th ed. codexes are having to up the power of armies to deal with the things that were over-powered. They either had to nerf Tyranids and Eldar, or power-up everything else.
I expect that Space Marines, IG, DE, and the rest of the new codexes will have plenty of good anti-hoard options.
IG are better than stomping on Orks than the average. Lots of blasts, lots of templates, lots of shots.
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Post by: Mort
Stelek wrote:40kenthusiast wrote:Without wading into the Stelek vs. Darrian13 style of Ork debate, I'll add my voice to the choir confirming the Ork's ascendancy. In my view they currently rule 40k. There isn't a list that can beat them and remain competitive vs. the rest of the field.
You really think that?
My Eldar haven't had a problem with Orks yet.
Ok Stelek, so of course being a noob, I hafta ask.
Could you post your 1500 eldar list "vs. Orks" over in the Army list section? Or PM it to me or something? I've only played a handful of games so far (and watched a ton), but first impressions kinda match up with what 40kenthusiast was describing (so far) in regards to horde-type forces (including massive 'nid forces, as well).
Not saying anyone is 'wrong' or anything, just curious what force comp you're using, since I run Eldar too.
Thanks!
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Post by: Stelek
Certainly. However I don't run 1500 point lists. I don't even like running 1750 point lists.
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Post by: HotSoup
I must say, I have had nor seen much trouble with the orks. Most of the games I see, the orks end up losing rather badly, or tie the game barely. My "balanced" BT army does rather well against the ork armies I have played(All of two, but still), and I imagine my LRC Spearhead based lists I will be running will have little trouble(Lots of Dakka, heavy armor, crappy ork shooting. I don't see them fairing well). I can see other 4th Tier 1 lists doing well still against orks, and the new 5th ed dex's having little trouble as well. All in all, I don't seem them as a problem to my army or to 40k in general.
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Post by: Pyromaniac
i have to agree with the people who say orks have an advantage
the thing that keeps crushing people in my flgs is the 30 boys mob with a hidden power claw
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Post by: Stelek
Pyromaniac wrote:i have to agree with the people who say orks have an advantage
the thing that keeps crushing people in my flgs is the 30 boys mob with a hidden power claw
Gotta make that a 10 boy mob. Then it gets crushed instead.
Flamers help.
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Post by: mikeguth
My Chaos Marines have real trouble with Orks. 3 units of 15 Loota with Defguns can generate 90 shots in a turn for under 700 points. That's about the cost of 16 Thousand Sons. Mathhammer estimate, 90 shots, 30 hit, the darn thing is strenght 7(!!!!), 25 wound, save 16, oops, that's 9 casualties-one unit gone......Noise Marines and Thousand Sons can't have flamers. What's left, maybe trying to deep strike some obliterators to get the flamer templates? UGH. The obliterators don't put out enough shots to reduce a 30 figure unit, unless it is a lead unit not getting cover saves.
I think that the 7/4 longrange def gun gives Orks the ability to be melee and shooting at the same time. And that's without the Snikrot thing....
I'm frustrated enough to quit the game right now.....
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Post by: Darrian13
mix in a couple of landraiders packed with plague marines. Orks have very little to deal with landraiders. Plague marines are one of the few CC units that will beat Orks in CC at equal point levels. One of the things to do with the landraider once it is empty is to launch it right into the LOS of the lootas. This can block their field of fire and diminish their firepower.
Try a squad of oblits and the lash, that combo really disturbs Orks. That way you pack a target squad into a nice tight ball outside of cover and then drop 3 plasma cannon templates on them.
Treminators with flamers deepstruck close to an icon can also be a nightmare for Orks. Termies are very hard for Ork mobs to hurt. The klaw is the only effective weapon.
I am not guaranteeing you a win, but the matchup should be pretty even. CSM have been the worst matchup so far for my Orks.
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Post by: thehod
Darrian is right and I might add in Beserkers. I played a 5th edition game with a beserker squad charging 40 orks (one squad was beaten up), the beserkers killed 20 thanks to furious charge with only 4 dying in return and with the combat resolution managed to kill another 15 orks.
Lash is a problem for Orks as they have little to defend against it.
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Post by: Stelek
Darrian offers excellent advice.
Another example is using NM units.
They chop through Orks at range, and Orks can only run forward while you back away. Storm Bolter or S4 Heavy bolter, pick your poison. Orks like neither one.
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Post by: mikeguth
Advice all appreciated, I'll keep trying.
My games have been in an Escalation league on 4x4 tables from 500-1250 points and 1/4 board terrain. Guess my thesis is that the 600 point Ork Gunline of 45 Defguns which range the width of the board is more useful support than a Chaos core of 4-6 Oblits with one-two Daemon Princes. Any Ork unit advancing in the center is just bait for a charging Chaos unit which gets shot to pieces next turn. Any Chaos unit poking its head around the corner is STP in one turn, TS, NM, makes no difference. PM you might keep half a squad on the board. If there is enough cover for a Chaos player to block LOS from the gunline, then chances are there is enough cover for most Orks to sneak up on you without facing the vaunted fire of the NM, or to get the 4+ obscured save. Obscured save is no help to Marine units which already have a 3+ armor save.
So, in practice the advice given may be hard to implement. Example,THEHOD recommends landraiders. 2 landraiders plus 2 squads of cult troops assuming 8 men each will be near or over 500 points each. So, in a 1250 point escalation game your army consists of 2 squads, 2 landraiders and a daemon prince. How will you take 3 or 4 objectives cleverly placed on 2nd levels of buildings?-Possible to blow up the buildings perhaps. Very unattractive army though in a tournament where your next opponent fields 4-6 lascannon equivalents
Yes, Khorne Berzerkers can kill a significant number of Orks in hand to hand combat. If you are in the open, you then get return fire from 45 Defguns. Congrats, I've traded a 200+ point unit for a 180 point unit.
Darrien-I'm not convince that the Orks can't cope with landraiders. Have to read through the codex with this in mind, there are stickbomz, powerklawz on bikes or 'concealed' in big units, the SAG (which shouldn't work, but may), a variety of special characters, and then the problem that the Landraider can only down a few Orks a turn, and the Orks in back are getting a 4+obscured save for free-a save which you've had to pay for if you want to play with the elegant Thousand Sons.....
The "Lash" means you are an exposed MC on the next turn. Can your DP survive 15-30 7/4 shots?
Terminators: Well, I need to buy 25 more.....But they are pricey for low points games.
But, if I place a plasma template on top of an Ork truk do I hit the boyz and the truk? Have to read the rules again.....
Deepstrike: I did consider this. first you have to have an icon unit. Then, you have to get the icon unit near the orks without getting shot and dieing. Then you have to make the roll to bring in the reserves. Complex process.
Would you agree that Chaos may be at a disadvantage on the 4x4 board??
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Post by: budro
mikeguth wrote:But, if I place a plasma template on top of an Ork truk do I hit the boyz and the truk? Have to read the rules again.....
Just the trukk. even though it's open-topped it's like every other vehicle in the game.
I face off with my ork army vs CSM a lot. They're a bit rampant around here for some reason the last 6 months or so. LR's are the only thing I hate to see on the board. Orks really only have one option for killing AR14 all around. That's the warboss on a bike with power klaw. Zapp gunz are iffy, short ranged and easy to avoid. SAG first needs the S and then to not scatter to even have a chance at killing it. Tankbustas - easy to distract and there shooting is only S8 anyway. I figured out the math and it would take a full squad of 15 tankbustas firing at the bare minimum 5 turns to shoot a LR to death (avg number of hit and BEST possible damage rolls). If they get close enough to assault it, then they probably will kill it with bombs (though the bst option is a couple of tankhammers). Stikkbombs can't even scuff AR14. Might polish it up a bit.
Nobs with pks on the charge is possible. But still low risk of them killing it.
LRs are the only reason I don't have a perfect record against CSM in the past 9 games I've played vs CSM (lost 2). And in those two games, I didn't have the warboss on a bike.
Come the new SM dex, I expect to start seeing more and more LR and LRC on the table. I'll have to go with 2 biker bosses and no KFF to even have a chance.
Anyway - you don't necessarily need 2 LRs in your army - especially not at less then 1750. Take a couple of vidicators for some pie plate fun. Couple that with a lash and you'll start whittling down the ork mobs. Just don't show your side armour to the lootas.
DS'ing vs orks probably isn't the best thing to do. You don't want them assualting you.
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Post by: Darrian13
I know that most players are unaware of it, but, you can actually buy a Chaos sorceror that is not a monstrous creature. Heck, you can even buy one that is in termie armor. I switched from MC sorcerors to regular sorcerors and I have not missed anything, except getting targetted.
Like Bodro said, there is very little in an Ork army that can handle a LR. Just make sure to keep the LR moving and it rarely gets hit by klaws and klaws are the real way to kill a LR.
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Post by: Shep
Maybe some of you guys can help me with this... could be a fun exercise...
Shoota boy alpha strike moves by race...
Chaos Demons - KoS pavane, flamer triple flame, soulgrinder pie + harvester (not a difficult combo, can have 2 of each of those for guaranteed DMA... probably kills 15 orks)
Chaos Marines - lash, triple plasma cannon, defiler pie (not a difficult combo, probably kills around 15 as well)
Demonhunters - land raider tank shock herd, double or triple incinerators (works best with 2 land raiders, and at least 3 incinerators... probably kills 12 orks)
callidus, emperors tarot, triple leman russ (only usable when using guard as main codex... probably kills 20 orks)
Dark Eldar - Can't think of any... total dark eldar noob
Eldar - wave serpent/fire dragon tank shock herd (works best with a pair of course, 2x crack shot heavy flamers probably kill 11 orks plus the incidental shuriken cannon and fusion gun shots)
prism tank shock herding with big pies (use a pair to herd them together and drop both pies on them. probably kills about 12)
add destructor locks to both of the above combos for massive increase in wounds
imperial guard - chimera spam with hellhound and leman russes (giant tank shock herding followed by 6+ templates, plus any foot infantry with flamers that fell out of D&Ged chimeras... 20+ dead?)
necrons - double or triple monolith herding (pretty obvious push em in tight and whip...)
space marines - drop pods with deathwinds and whirlwinds (make walls to funnel orks into narrow advance, whirlwind templates and deathwind templates to follow)
triple vindicator tank shock herding (herd orks, drop pie)
add missile launcher devs to these combos for more pie goodness
Tau - markerlight base, devilfish hammerhead (markerlight off the ork cover save, tank shock herd with a devilfish full of fire warriors, drop hammerhead submunition and fire warrior doubletap)
tyranids - deathspitter warriors, strangler fexes (without being able to tighten up the orks, this is just pie saturation)
witch hunters - rhinos, flamers (classic easy bake oven, tank shock herd and let loose with insane amounts of flame)
These are by no means 'uncounterable' or even suggested army builds for tourney play... I just thought it might be useful to some people Especially the orkophobics out here to see some combos that can kill volumes of orks. Just these components of an army list, can strip an ork unit down to half dead, the rest of your army can get involved after. Possibly alpha striking a unit.
So once again, to any ork player who is going to take offense to some of these combos.... not uncounterable, just some ideas to throw out there for fun discussion.
If anyone can help me with more combos, just post away...
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Post by: Stelek
Dark Eldar = Haemonculi with the flamer templates.
Necrons can't kill 180 orks, because the liths are slow and the orks hit them on 4+ (so the klaws blow them up in a turn).
Agree with the rest.
Others can post more combos. lol
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Post by: LargeAngryGoff
Sarigar wrote:Mine didn't feel like such a horde afterall. I ran a 1500 point Ork army at an RTT last weekend that totalled 109 models. A couple of things I noticed that was huge in 5th edition.
-I couldn't draw LOS through my Boyz mobs with my Lootas. There is just too much getting in the way. If you can't find hills/multi level ruins, LOS could be very tricky running 180 Boyz (I only had two squads of 30 Boyz in my list....and two squads of 14 Lootas)
I thought friendlies didn't block los?
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Post by: Steelmage99
Yes they do. Any model, friendly or enemy, blocks LOS. Perhaps you are thinking of other members in a firing unit not getting in the way of each other (which they don't).
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Post by: LargeAngryGoff
Greebynog wrote:Redbeard wrote:After playing a 5th ed tournament this weekend, I have to agree as well.
It kind of makes me sad, because I took up orks at the time when everyone said they couldn't win, and there was a kind of "let's show 'em" mentality among the handful of us who'd try and run them at tournaments. There were only three ork players at the 2007 Adepticon Gladiator.
Now, they're the flavour of the edition, and all over the place. They're going to get the same rep as nidzilla or tri-falcon.
Damn right Redbeard, I couldn't agree more, in fact I had a thread in dakka discussions to this effect a while back. I was once the only ork player at an 80 strong tournie at Warhammer World, and came 4th. It was a proud moment.
I do hope it doens't go that way, that orks are considered cheese-monsters, but the wave of new players they're getting will die down soon enough when the new flavour of the month comes along, so I'm not worried. I am worried about seeing an uprise in 'orky'* conversions from people new to them.
*read: crap.
I haven't met another Ork player in 7 years (though I haven't gone gaming to a retailer since before the new Codex was released) I will just be pleased as punch to see something other than space marines on the other side of the table. The more the merrier. Waaagh allies in big multiplayer battles, a proper Orky challenge in 1v1, it's win-win from my perspective.
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Post by: LargeAngryGoff
Steelmage99 wrote:Yes they do. Any model, friendly or enemy, blocks LOS.
I haven't got a chance to read the new rulebook fully, only the white dwarf summary. All I have is their garbled self-back-patting to go on. I read (though I can't definitively say they wrote) that friendlies don't block los, but if tlos means that models regardless of side do block los, that is incredibly lame. That's the kind of wonky stuff I thought they were trying to get rid of with newer editions.
Perhaps you are thinking of other members in a firing unit not getting in the way of each other (which they don't).
That's probly what I saw and misinterpreted.
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Post by: Orc Town Grot
The funny thing about all the great "orc horde killing lists", is that alot of them fall into a bigger trap of designing for orcs and ignoring the many other kinds of armies out there. If players design their list for the orc horde they will be weaker against something else. For tournament play they may like to remember to take the kind of wargear that can kill other things as well. If they remember all their flamers and forget to take the plasma guns, they find themselves being beaten up by the marines and the nidzillas of the world.
I was wondering what you guys think of Killer Kans. The grotzooka seems a fairly handy weapon in 5th edition, a 2 shot strength 6 template at BS 3 seems pretty nice, can see that shooting up its share of other peoples hordes. And 11 armour will be extremely sweet if you go into CC with any unit with no more than 4 strength, because the opponent cannot penetrate the armour. 3 of these could do some harm for a mere 45 points each. In the great debate between shooty and hordey orks I was wondering if either dude has space in his 2000 points for any of those. Or are lootas the only viable option now, since STR 7 can nurf all these walkers so easily.
Another (unrelated) point I wanted to add, was though orks have become competitive is great for everyone, the reason I actually like to play them is not that, but because they are such an immensely characterful list, and they allow immense scope for conversion and scratch building and for COMEDY in the modelling department. at 1500 points I'm running 103 orks, but heaps of other interesting models. every ork is unique, the buggies are scratch built as are the SAGS and Deff dreads. It looks great and there are no end to different possibilities and themes. Orks winning is cool, orks threatening is the way it should be, but orks looking good on the table, is the other thing to remember. And that's why I can't go all horde, it would mean leaving too many cool models at home.
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Post by: Orc Town Grot
LOS is model's eye view. In most cases some models will be seeing some models of a target unit through intervening models, so in most cases, both units shooting through intervening units actually get 4+ saves. Where big models totally block model to model LOS there is no LOS simple, but it is not the case that a unit ALWAYS blocks LOS. We have to check the situation in each circumstance and reach agreement.
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Post by: Darrian13
One of the best things about a horde army in the tourney scene is that take-all-comers lists are inefficient in dealing with them. Take-all-comer's lists have a balance of firepower, some heavy and some anti mob. The Ork horde denies them the efficient use of las cannons and bright lances and such. It is kind of a waste of points to fire a las cannon at a mob of shoota boys. Adding killer kans or dreads to a mob list gives the balanced list something to fire his las cannons at while having to focus on less boys than a traditional horde army.
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Post by: cypher
Thats pretty much the same benefit all armies get from specializing in one thing.
Mech tau and Mech eldar were a pain not because they were unkillable (enough heavy weapons would do it) but because nobody brings enough of those weapons in a ballanced list.
Orcs take it one step further in 5th because their greatness is mostly in the troops section where everyone else needs those elites (orcs only need lootas).
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Post by: karlfranz
i have done well with horde orks
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Post by: Pyromaniac
the one thing which i can not seem to keep from killing me or getting back 5 times its points is a unit of ard boyz with a power claw and MAD DOK GROTSNIC
and a looted wagon with a boom gun in a 500 point game
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Post by: Darrian13
I think you need to play in higher point games.
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Post by: Barthonis
We have a ork player in our friendly gaming group, and he has had major trouble on occasion with both plague marine armies and IG armies. He is probably only winning about half his games, so I'm not sure what everyone is so wound up about. Seems like each edition there is a new fad favorite army. So the orks are the newest chosen flavor of the month. big deal. i say good for the ork players. bring 'em on. Sure the winning of the game is the best part, but as long as you're not one of these "if i cant win most/all the games I won't play" types of people, then you should have almost as much fun just playing the damn game.
Every dog gets his day....today it might be the orks...but then again, the dice gods are rather fickle aren't they?
my 2 pfennigs worth.
~Bart
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Post by: Barthonis
and did i mention that an ork army allows those of us who are painters/modelers a way to field an army that looks crappy, but its ok cuz they are orks afterall. lol. I havent played orks since my gorkamorka days when i ran demos at the local gaming store, but i remember how fun it was to scratch build some truks and bikes and it didnt matter that they werent the shiniest or nicest looking models, cuz that just made them look orkier.
And my friend's custom built truks, SAG conversions, and even gargants look so damn cool that i'm proud of his work when i see him put them out on the table, and i didnt even have anything to do with them. Now where is that damn new IG codex, GW??? I'm gettin impatient!!!! 
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Post by: budro
KKs are fun. 300 points gets you 6 of them with rokkits. Suprisingly tough, even with AR11. I like rokkits better then the grotzooka because:
1) Grotzooka is short range
2) shootas have as much or more killing ability at the same range. (for less points you can take a mob of 30 with pk bp nob and shootas and 3 BS).
3) there's a not a lot of rokkits in the army and KKs are the only place to get BS3 rokkits.
Primarily though it's because I can get anti-infantry in the rest of the list.
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Post by: Shep
I like kans a lot! armor 11 4+ cover save with KFF. Makes 4" gaps that grant cover to things behind them.
Grotzookas are the best bet as well. Rokkits just aren't necessary when you have an army with 12+ power klaws. Push forward, run, block tank shocks with kans, D&G rams... Take 4+ cover saves all day. If a vehicle is your problem, and its not something lootas can handle, wrangle it with multiple kan units, charge, strength 10 into rear armor...
grotzookas are strength 6 blast... meaning, any T3 swarm loses two BASES for every failed save. A unit of 3 kans shoots 6 BS3 templates? It's really the standout gun. Hopefully you all disagree for another month...
Wow, this post is totally OT...
Umm, to bring thread back... no orks aren't unbeatable, everyone needs to make adjustments... And I absolutely do not agree with ork town that these adjustments are only good when facing orks... With the predominance of cover saves, everyone is essentially an ork. Think of a unit of space marines as 30 orks. It's got 10 wounds instead of 30, but you can kill them just as easy by putting 30 wounds on them, if they are getting their save. Scatter laser spam does as well or better against marines as it does orks. Hang those plasma guns up.... they have joined the ranks of the star cannon.
Taking reliable light vehicle kill, and somewhat reliable but less important heavy vehicle kill is something everyone is going to have to do. Orks already have to do it. (lootas, and power klaws/rokkits, respectively) Just about every army out there can take masses of anti infantry fire, some light vehicle kill, and a small sampling of heavy vehicle kill. And they all SHOULD be doing that.
Orks being on one end of the spectrum, and terminators being on the other end, make terminators (and other 2+ savers) a lot better, but those are the two ends of the spectrum, and I think its about time that termies and MANz and other 2+ers got a little love.
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Post by: Stelek
Actually Shep, I think you are wrong about terminators being better.
Me, I've been playing torrent armies since I started playing. Rolling dice makes baby happy? I dunno.
Anyway, if a Terminator costs 30 points and an Ork costs 6, and you put 30 wounds on...
Won't there be 5 terminators to take those 30 wounds, but for the same cost won't there be 25 Orks?
The termies statistically all die to those wounds.
The Orks lose 15 of their number.
Thus, why I do not play Terminators.
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Post by: Stelek
Oh and you are right about grotzookas. I told everyone locally if they were going to run Killer Kans, equip them with Grotzookas.
Those things make Marines cry.
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Post by: Darrian13
Quoted from Stelek; "Anyway, if a Terminator costs 30 points and an Ork costs 6, and you put 30 wounds on...
Won't there be 5 terminators to take those 30 wounds, but for the same cost won't there be 25 Orks?
The termies statistically all die to those wounds.
The Orks lose 15 of their number.
Thus, why I do not play Terminators."
This is so dead on. This is why Orks are so good.
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Post by: whitedragon
Are orks good, or are terminators bad...
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Post by: sebster
whitedragon wrote:Are orks good, or are terminators bad...
Neither, they're completey different units with completely different roles and abilities. Straight up comparing their ability to absorb a block of small arms fire is ignoring this.
Terminators are a small unit, with a very small footprint compared to orks. You should be expected to hide them from the enemy's AP2 weapons and from large amounts of small arms fire, if you can't do this then yeah, they're worse than orks.
Meanwhile orks are a large, unwieldy unit. You just barrel forward and pretty much ignore the finer points of deployment, trusting in your numbers.
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Post by: Stelek
sebster wrote:whitedragon wrote:Are orks good, or are terminators bad...
Neither, they're completey different units with completely different roles and abilities. Straight up comparing their ability to absorb a block of small arms fire is ignoring this.
This is how I've always killed Terminators.
"I did 12 wounds with my bolters. Take your normal saves."
"Two die."
"Ok next squad fires at them."
I mean, really.
sebster wrote:Terminators are a small unit, with a very small footprint compared to orks. You should be expected to hide them from the enemy's AP2 weapons and from large amounts of small arms fire, if you can't do this then yeah, they're worse than orks.
Uhh I killed them with light weapons fire in 4E.
Now they can't hide. Small footprint means nothing when I'm rolling 12 heavy bolters on your ass.
sebster wrote:Meanwhile orks are a large, unwieldy unit. You just barrel forward and pretty much ignore the finer points of deployment, trusting in your numbers.
Wait, this is different from terminators...how?
Come on seb.
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Post by: Shep
Here I go defending terminators in a thread about orks again. I don't even own any terminators.
Terminators are not just about their 2+/5+ save. Its one feature of a model that has BOTH offensive and defensive abilities. We can talk all day about how many licks it takes to get to the center, but at a 23" distance, who is winning a shooting war.... the terminator unit's entire firepower? or the 9 big shoota shots from a boy unit? or the 3 rokkits?
Terminators are a source of solid mobile firepower from a small footprint. This fact is almost impossible to analyze with the magic that is theoryhammer. No one seems to give generalship any credit when looking at terminators. They can hit hard from 29" away, groups of them can all maneuver to get their guns on a single target to bring high priority threats down fast, they can deploy conventionally with first turn, deploy back off the line an inch or two if going second against an aggressor army, and can create a local firefight right on the front doorstep of a stand and shoot army, at an unpredictable location.
I just played an awesome game with the hardest ork list i think there is, against a simple 6 termie unit belial and librarian dark angel army. I won it, but if my opponent had followed my suggestions, I would have been cleanly beaten. I'll probably get a batrep up soon, but let me paint a picture...
the dark angels line up on the 12" line, so do the orks. Dark angels go forward about 2" and what do you know, every gun they have is in range, they unload, many orks die. Orks move forward, they get to about 16" away, theory hammer says all their shootas are in range, but thats why theory is crap. Barely any of their shootas are in range, thanks to the sheer size of the ork units. The boys themselves do next to nothing, and a terminator unit gets roughed up by the lootas. Termies all move back 6", we do the same thing again, with the entire terminator army getting 100% shooting, its taking its toll. Either the lootas finish off the survivors of the last unit they worked on or they work on a new unit. One more round of the same thing, and we're talking about dozens of orks thinned out, and some units of terminators gone. The surprise comes when then terminators finally step up. Now a hellfire template hits, now with clever moves, partial terminator units are set to receive ork charges while the fresh unmolested by loota units get prepped for clean counter charges. I could keep walking you all through this... but its better if i just give it a full batrep.
Its really easy to talk about how many 18" range shoota shots an army has, but when mobile range 24" shooting is involved, you have to understand that a good general can keep the 18" range shots in control until so many ork casualties have mounted that their isn't really any volume of shots worthy of counting up.
Yeah you've got lootas, and you'll really really need them to perform well. If the shoota boys themselves continue to struggle against terminators, I may just drop a single termie unit for 3 incendiary whirlwinds. Now going first is vital to the orks, or they may not even have lootas.
This thread is about orks being "too good" not about deathwing... Orks aren't too good. They are very good. Everyone just needs practice. Make an ork friend and get lots of games in, its a fun army to play against.
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Post by: sebster
Stelek wrote:This is how I've always killed Terminators.
"I did 12 wounds with my bolters. Take your normal saves."
"Two die."
"Ok next squad fires at them."
I mean, really.
Uhh I killed them with light weapons fire in 4E.
Now they can't hide. Small footprint means nothing when I'm rolling 12 heavy bolters on your ass.
Wait, this is different from terminators...how?
Come on seb.
You've pretty much ignored the conversation and repeated the opening point. Yeah, it's true that a terminator won't survive as much as his points equivalent in orks. My argument is that you can't assume it is as easy to bring multiple units to fire on a unit of terminators as it is to fire on 30 orks, unless you want to argue;
a) That terminators take up as much space as 30 orks
b) That there is no such thing as LOS blocking terrain
I am no great fan of terminators, but the initial argument left a lot to be desired.
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Post by: Stelek
Seb what I'm trying to convey is:
I have never had a problem killing terminators.
Not since 2nd edition.
They can't asscannon snipe lascannon guys dead anymore.
So what am I scared of?
Oh and termies are on big bases, and better be spread out because all template/blast weapons hurt them much more than before--so I'd say they do take up a large footprint because you can't risk losing 1 guy whereas Orks will take 6 wounds at a time from a battlecannon because only 3 will die and who cares?
Termies spread out lengthwise are also a failure, it leaves you open to multiple assaults at either end and lets people shoot more stuff at you.
Termies will always be a fail for me.
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Post by: gorgon
Stelek wrote:Oh and you are right about grotzookas. I told everyone locally if they were going to run Killer Kans, equip them with Grotzookas.
Those things make Marines cry.
Yeah, I won't be able to get Kans into my GT army this year, but I'll be fielding 6 or maybe even 9 of them with Grotzookas next year for sure. What's there not to like?
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Post by: Stelek
Immobilize results, grot riggers, and no FAQ.
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Post by: sebster
Stelek wrote:Seb what I'm trying to convey is:
I have never had a problem killing terminators.
Not since 2nd edition.
They can't asscannon snipe lascannon guys dead anymore.
So what am I scared of?
Oh and termies are on big bases, and better be spread out because all template/blast weapons hurt them much more than before--so I'd say they do take up a large footprint because you can't risk losing 1 guy whereas Orks will take 6 wounds at a time from a battlecannon because only 3 will die and who cares?
Termies spread out lengthwise are also a failure, it leaves you open to multiple assaults at either end and lets people shoot more stuff at you.
Termies will always be a fail for me.
I don't have a great opinion of termies either, I wasn't trying to defend their worth in general. I was just pointing out the original argument on terminators and their relative vulnerability compared to orks wasn't a strong a case, because small mobile units should be able to avoid massed fire a lot better than 30+ orks.
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Post by: Stelek
Ah but my counterpoint is, I don't know if it's alot easier than even large units.
You still only need to be within range of one terminator with your shooters to put every shot into them.
The comparison of orks versus terminators mobility and range (storm bolters vs shootas) is indeed a good one, and I wouldn't dispute that.
1528
Post by: Darrian13
I think the biggest tactical adaptation players have to make going from 4th to 5th is that there are very few places now to hide a unit on the table.
Unless your termies are hiding in their LR or are hiding off the table in reserve, there are few places that they can hide on the table. Yes they can easily find cover but they will still get shot at.
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Post by: gorgon
Terrain collections will eventually adjust to compensate.
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Post by: Stelek
gorgon wrote:Terrain collections will eventually adjust to compensate.
That's just players being if ya ask me.
Learn how to play without LOS blocking terrain.
It's not difficult.
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Post by: Democratus
Stelek wrote:gorgon wrote:Terrain collections will eventually adjust to compensate.
That's just players being if ya ask me.
Learn how to play without LOS blocking terrain.
It's not difficult.
It's just players following the lead of GW. Look at the first 5th edition battle report in White Dwarf. They pulled out massive LOS blocking terrain (cliffs) for use in the new game. If that's how the designers intend the game to be played then it certainly isn't "just players being ".
Things change. Sometimes changes only affect army lists. Sometimes they affect terrain. 5th edition strongly affects terrain.
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Post by: Stelek
That's the designers saying one thing (TLOS is awesome!) and then not being man enough to play it that way.
Which is part of why GW loses market share every single day.
The rest of us don't have money to buy endless amounts of terrain to meet GW's whims.
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Post by: Darrian13
Does GW sell any LOS blocking terrain?
5164
Post by: Stelek
Of course.
You buy cityfight terrain.
Then you install drapes.
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Post by: kid_happy
Making new terrain has got to be one of the cheapest aspects of the hobby. Especially bluffs, mesas, and hills.
You only need enough for 25% of a table.
I have got a load of plastic plants from Michaels. Two batches for sixteen dollars will make enough jungle hills for more than 25% of the playing surface. My brother plays Catachans so off course I have six bunches worth. Still cheaper than buying two rhino's....
Making hills or Standing stones? Buy a piece of 2" insulation board. $30 tops. Cut into pieces and stack. 25% coverage of LOS that is 8" high. Again, $30.
The biggest win with terrain investment is that you can use it with *every* army in *every* game.
Some players own every army there is and won't spend an afternoon and $50 on terrain. Sad, really.
5164
Post by: Stelek
And that kind of terrain looks like...utter !
I don't want 8" high bluffs, thanks though.
It's not an afternoon to make good terrain, fyi.
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Post by: gorgon
Tables have evolved with each edition. And it's going to happen again because virtually every army could still use places to park things where they're 100% safe. So in will come hillier battlefields with more intact buildings.
I'm interested to see if the GWUS team adjusts their GT tables at all, or if they'll still be area terrain-fests.
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Post by: Stelek
They have? Hmmm, been playing on nicer looking terrain but it's honestly been about the same at most stores for many years now.
About the only real driver of change was buildings gave a 3+ save and so most people dropped them because it unbalanced the game.
TLOS doesn't really unbalance the game terribly.
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Post by: budro
I doubt that at least for this years GT's theres much change in terrain. It's unlikely that they will have the time to build a lot of LOS blocking terrain. My bet is that it will be the same stuff as previous years.
Personally I really like TLOS and don't feel the need to build large intact buildings and cliffs. 4+ cover all over the board is more then enough to make my orks happy.
Plus it looks good. Large hills aren't hard to make, but it is difficult to fit a piece in a make it look good with the rest of the table.
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Post by: kid_happy
Stelek wrote:And that kind of terrain looks like...utter !
I don't want 8" high bluffs, thanks though.
It's not an afternoon to make good terrain, fyi.
You give it a hot wire, paint job and some sand and rubble and it looks good. Better, in fact, then 1.5" "hill" with some flock.
You're right though, it takes a couple of nights to make a good looking hill, bluff, rock spire. Still less time then converting and painting up a squad. I think you'll get more mileage out of the hill.
Honestly, I don't think an 8" hill is very high. Lower than a second story building from COD.
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Post by: Stelek
You played COD? Amazing...
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Post by: gorgon
Stelek wrote:They have? Hmmm, been playing on nicer looking terrain but it's honestly been about the same at most stores for many years now.
About the only real driver of change was buildings gave a 3+ save and so most people dropped them because it unbalanced the game.
TLOS doesn't really unbalance the game terribly.
I'm not talking about a total revolution, but change happened. 4th edition area terrain changed the look of tables just because they didn't all have to mimic golf courses anymore. Terrain generally increased because of the 25% guideline. That helped fill out a lot of really empty-looking tables, from what I saw.
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Post by: Stelek
Ah. I play in a very nice FLGS that has always had 50-75% terrain on every table if you really really wanted it. lol
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Post by: kid_happy
Stelek wrote:You played COD? Amazing...
Nope, but I certainly see people running tourneys with the buildings.
This link for example has plenty of pictures of LOS blocking buildings.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210890.page
Looks good, if not a little odd. When I lived in the city we would have died to have that kind of parking...
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Post by: Stelek
Those don't block LOS....
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Post by: kid_happy
Stelek wrote:Those don't block LOS....
1) Because they are lined up in one nice row...
2) Looks like they'd block LOS in Spearhead deployment
4431
Post by: kid_happy
Don't get me wrong, the terrain looks great.
But the hills we've been playing with for so many years are hills, in name only. They aren't even a "grassy knoll". My root cellar comes up past my head. That's higher than most "hills" you see in stores.
Players can play on whatever terrain they want and it'll definitely change the game that is played.
An open field with hills up to the waist gives gun lines and first turn an advantage. Loads of TLOS blocking terrain favours CC (especially Jumppack CC). I like some of each on my tables.
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Post by: Stelek
Ah but buildings do not block TLOS, not the ones GW sold, because there are windows in them.
I do like some of each on the table. I don't agree with you that gunline armies need an advantage with terrain blocking LOS to jump pack CC armies.
Is a turn 2 assault not good enough for some reason? I certainly don't think so.
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Post by: CaptKaruthors
Not all the wall sections from COD buildings have windows, Stelek.
Capt K
5023
Post by: Democratus
In my area the LGSs have all had multiple terrain building nights, complete with tournament-level awards for participants. They now have cliffs, bluffs, factories, and other great looking terrain that can block LOS to the largest vehicles in 40K (and some that would even block LOS to a super heavy).
But then again I live in the best 40K city in America (Austin) so I'm spoiled.
5164
Post by: Stelek
Ok buddy. You go ahead and buy 500 bucks worth to make a table with those windowless walls.
Oh and it's REALLY boring to play on that kind of table.
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Post by: kid_happy
Stelek wrote: I don't agree with you that gunline armies need an advantage with terrain blocking LOS to jump pack CC armies.
I'm not sure you understood my meaning but I imagine we're actually on the same page.
Take my Stormboyz, for example.
On a clear board, where most/all units can draw a bead on them, they get hammered. Gunline FTW.
On a table, with lots of TLOS blocking terrain, the stormboyz are, unsurprisingly, amazing. Doesn't feel fair.
On a mixed table, I can get my 2nd turn assault with a few losses but, I need to watch how exposed they'll be afterwords.
4431
Post by: kid_happy
Stelek wrote:Ok buddy. You go ahead and buy 500 bucks worth to make a table with those windowless walls.
Oh and it's REALLY boring to play on that kind of table.
I think the opposite. Two armies facing off across a pasture just seems so... Waterloo.
Give me Stalingrad, Hamburger Hill, or any other battle where they don't fight on a field, frozen lake, or ash waste.
Save those arenas for Theoryhammer.
1528
Post by: Darrian13
@Democratus, where do you game? Your store sounds great.
5470
Post by: sebster
Stelek wrote:gorgon wrote:Terrain collections will eventually adjust to compensate.
That's just players being if ya ask me.
Learn how to play without LOS blocking terrain.
It's not difficult.
It isn't about learning to play a different way, it's about playing better games. If you're playing on boards with so little LOS blocking terrain that you can't hide a unit of terminators, it sounds like you're playing on a really boring terrain set up.
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Post by: Klotz
well i went up camping a bit ago and forgot the new ork codex so i had to use my old one.
and i realized that orks FINALLY got good
when i was playing old orks againts new spaceies i was owned like a million times trying just as many tatics
but when i finally got the new codex back, the boyz finally came thro and gave them marines a good thumping
so i think its fair casue all the people with newer codex's get alot better
5164
Post by: Stelek
Seb, that's the point of 5th edition.
If you need to block LOS to terminators, you are doing something wrong.
Tell ya what, if it's that important...I'll let you get fortifications, I'll let you go first, and I'll stand out in the open.
Will you lose anyway? I think so.
5470
Post by: sebster
Stelek wrote:Seb, that's the point of 5th edition.
If you need to block LOS to terminators, you are doing something wrong.
Tell ya what, if it's that important...I'll let you get fortifications, I'll let you go first, and I'll stand out in the open.
Will you lose anyway? I think so.
So terminators are terrible and shouldn't be taken, but if you use cover to protect them from the majority of the enemy while isolating and destroying a minority, then you're doing something wrong. Heh, all this time and no-one ever pointed out that manouvre warfare was invalid.
Meanhwhile, talking about who'd win in a hypothetical game on a hypothetical board lacks any content and is irrelevant to the discussion, particularly when I said earlier I'm not even that big a fan of terminators. Your argument that manouvre and LOS blocking should not be considered when comparing a five model unit to a 30 model unit is looking increasingly silly.
5164
Post by: Stelek
Cover doesn't help Terminators.
Yes, maneuver warfare works.
In 40k, that does not include the slowest guys in the game.
5023
Post by: Democratus
Darrian13 wrote:@Democratus, where do you game? Your store sounds great.
My primary store is Battleforge Games in Austin. This is where the Bell of Lost Souls guys (a.k.a Fly Lords) play. So I've enjoyed playing in their Horus Heresy campaign and will soon be knee deep in the Macharius Campaign they just published.
They've got 8 custom terrain boards, 4 of which are normal green ground and 4 special (desert, ash waste, mars-like, and ice). They even invite people over to help and learn their techniques for building the stuff.
The other local store (Dragon's Lair) holds "iron builder" contests where gamers come in and compete with each other to build new terrain. Some of it uses boxes of GW buildings, but a lot of it is DIY and creative stuff. I even know some player's wives who don't play 40K but show up for the terrain competition. They now have lots of cool stuff like quanset hut barracks, air fields, refineries, and other really cool stuff. Top builder in several categories gets store credit.
My league I play in has a player who uses foamboard to build factories, walls, fortifications, and (for our last campaign) a monorail system. So far he has spent about $40 to create 2 full tables of terrain.
5th edition can either be a burden or it can be a challenge. With the right community it can serve as a catalyst to get into all aspects of the hobby.
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Post by: fitzeh
Amen Democratus,
/me investigates how much it would cost to emigrate to Austin TX...
1528
Post by: Darrian13
Seriously. I just decided I do not like my FLGS anymore.
614
Post by: cypher
Come join mine...
We have hills, lots o hills
1528
Post by: Darrian13
Damn your hills Cypher.
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Post by: Virulent
Darrian13 wrote:Seriously. I just decided I do not like my FLGS anymore.
Seconded. Democratus, you're one lucky bastid.
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Post by: sebster
Stelek wrote:Cover doesn't help Terminators.
Yes, maneuver warfare works.
In 40k, that does not include the slowest guys in the game.
Sbuh?
Troops with assault weapons and standard movement are not the slowest guys in the game.
8352
Post by: Lord Bingo
in the 4th edition i found orks were probarly the easist army to beat, gonna play an ork army next week so i'll see if they are as good as quite alot of people are making out
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Post by: sourclams
GW's basic 40k building terrain definitely doesn't block much TLOS. We've been using it in a Necromunda campaign for about 5 weeks now and I can tell you truthfully, you're lucky if you can get three guys truly out of sight in a 90 degree arc, much less an entire squad of 10+ dudes the size of marines or Orks.
I guess I am presupposing you're not throwing half the kits away to make nonstop solid walls.
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Post by: cypher
A lot of the buildings arround here have the bottom lvl blocking LOS and the top lvl with windows.
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Post by: volair
The bottom line is that Orks are now likely to make up a significant portion of the player base at any given tournament, and you need some units in your army that are good for killing those massive 30 shoota boy units. Plague Marines with flamers, and/or Berserkers, hitting lashed units of boyz works wonders. Whirlwinds and Sternguard do a number on boyz. Hammerheads with rail guns are great. Note that most of these units are good against non-orks as well, given the new cover rules of 5th edition making plasma, etc... less efficient. Immortals, monoliths stack up well against boyz.
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Post by: frgsinwntr
Immortals are VERY good vs orks. Besides 14 years on the bottom, its about time the green skins got something
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