Marneus Calgar
Captain Lysander
6x assault terminator squad w. thunder hammers & storm shields
Landraider Crusader piloted by Chronus

10x Scouts split into 2 combat squads:
5x Scouts (incl. Telion) w. sniper rifles & heavy bolter (hellfire rounds)
5x Scouts w. combat blades & bolt pistols
Landspeeder Storm

10x tactical Marines w. las/plas &
This is the core.power fist - rhino

This is the core.

Gj

So, is this a Pants Build or a Power build?

I think you misunderstand what a power build is. A Power build is an armylist designed to be competitive to the exclusion of fluff and (arguably) sportsmanship. This is just a easily defeatable list containing a few powerful characters.

I play tested it last night against Lash spam and won big. I will be play testing it this weekend against nob bikers.

G

Can 6 termies and lysander fit into a LR? Yes, yes they can. that one neways..

1500 pts youve got a narly tank, 5 scoring units (2 are mobile) with 1 strong (very strong with both IC's?) assualt unit thats fairly small.

What kinda synergies are you going for GBF?

Taking Chronus with your tank seems interesting. You have to kill him and the tank to get a KP right.

I believe you do have to kill Chronus to get the KP for the tank.

The tank carries Marneus, Lysander and 6 assault termies. They will always break on the ork turn of close combat for the charge bonus the next turn.

This list is designed to smash nob bikers and LASH SPAM.

: )

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I believe you do have to kill Chronus to get the KP for the tank.

The tank carries Marneus, Lysander and 6 assault termies. They will always break on the ork turn of close combat for the charge bonus the next turn.

This list is designed to smash nob bikers and LASH SPAM.

: )

G

I can see how it would hurt the nobz... but how does it hurt lash? Can't your scoring units that aren't buttoned up just belashed and shot to death by oblits?

Wouldn't the best way to deal with lash to either negate the lash itself with an INQ lord for the better hood or have everything mech?

ender502

Green Blow Fly wrote:I believe you do have to kill Chronus to get the KP for the tank.

The tank carries Marneus, Lysander and 6 assault termies. They will always break on the ork turn of close combat for the charge bonus the next turn.

This list is designed to smash nob bikers and LASH SPAM.

: )

G

they cant break. calgar doesnt give chapter tactics, so your army will always have stubbon instead. your assault terminators dont have any bolters, so bolter drill from lysander is wasted. really there is no reason to have lysander in this list.

like i said in the Army Lists thread, i think youre trying to have us all on.

I'm assuming Lysander is only there to give a +1 cover save to the sniper scouts?

Wouldn't Sicarius giving everyone LD10 and infiltrate to your tac squad be a better deal?

1) You'd be all Ultras
2) Your squads would all be LD10
3) Your Tac squad could outflank/infiltrate with all your scouts depending on the mission.

"they cant break. calgar doesnt give chapter tactics, so your army will always have stubbon instead. your assault terminators dont have any bolters, so bolter drill from lysander is wasted. really there is no reason to have lysander in this list."

Have to call BS on this one.

G

I think the reason Lysander is there is the 4 wounds, 2+/3++, and eternal warrior.

Might be too much of a points sink but have you thought of instead of using 6 assault terminators usinging 6 grey knight terminators? That way you give the brother captain a psychic hood and Lysander gives those terminators some use rerolls with the bolter drill.

Green Blow Fly wrote:"they cant break. calgar doesnt give chapter tactics, so your army will always have stubbon instead. your assault terminators dont have any bolters, so bolter drill from lysander is wasted. really there is no reason to have lysander in this list."

Have to call BS on this one.

G

Seems pretty straightforward really. You've include Lysander so all units must exchange combat tactics for the stubborn USR. Marneus Calgar allows any unit with combat tactics to choose to pass or fail.

God of War != Chapter Tactics

What part is BS?

Otherwise this list is designed to handle other powerbuilds how? By putting terminators in a landraider? Surely someone else has thought of that before...

You know whats funny?

Seeing this list get the initiative stolen from it against a shooty list with enough ranged anti-tank to pop 2 rhino's the first turn and a single LR on the second.

You know whats funnier than that?

Seeing that same shooty army pop the two rhinos, watching the LR attempt to go over the wreckage and immobilising itself.

Now thats comedy.

I have to agree, this list is pretty bad...even if it can fight lash and biker nobs (which I doubt) It'll die against any Tau with 3 railheads and some suits, you're prolly safe though, cause you never see any of those units.

Additionally, why would Chronus prevent a tank from yielding it's KPs? Chronus is a unit, the tank is a unit. They would be worth 2 KPs unless something states otherwise.

Moz wrote:Additionally, why would Chronus prevent a tank from yielding it's KPs? Chronus is a unit, the tank is a unit. They would be worth 2 KPs unless something states otherwise.

Here's an award for being the closest to correct.

One internet.

*ding*


Chronus is bought as an upgrade for the tank. If the tank is popped and Chronus dies with it, you get 1 KP (he's still counted as an upgrade at that point).
If you pop the tank and he lives, thus becoming a unit of his own, and you kill him.... Two KP.

Eric

"You've include Lysander so all units must exchange combat tactics for the stubborn USR"

I will check the book tonite.

G

This army did great last nite versus a veteran Lash player.

G

If we're going to crush Lash, why not trade Calgar/Lysander for Ironclads? Hide Ironclads behind the crusader (can still contain assault terms), shoot 1 DP to death, assault other DP with assault terms, and your 'Clads are largely immune to all other squads while still being immune to lash spam.

Versus bikers, same thing, only you've got I4 S10 squashing I1 S8/9.

This list suffices, but seems like it could work at least equally well while being immune to small arms and any Strength value below 7.

GBF probably be good to include a small tactica on how it generally runs to help with the haters.

Hi Lemartes

I will post the batrep versus lash spam this evening.

G

ender502 wrote:
I can see how it would hurt the nobz... but how does it hurt lash? Can't your scoring units that aren't buttoned up just belashed and shot to death by oblits?

Wouldn't the best way to deal with lash to either negate the lash itself with an INQ lord for the better hood or have everything mech?

ender502

Nevermind, I get it now. I forgot about cover saves. a 4+ becomes a 3+ becomes a 2+.

And then mech.

Let us know how the storm does BTW.

ender502

Moz wrote:Additionally, why would Chronus prevent a tank from yielding it's KPs? Chronus is a unit, the tank is a unit. They would be worth 2 KPs unless something states otherwise.

Chronus is bought as an upgrade to the tank. The tank gets destroyed, he pops out and can run around....and the tank is still considered "alive". Thus, no KP until Chronus dies. He is not an independant character, nor does he count as a separate unit.

Enough relic blade, rending claw attacks, fusion gun blasts will overwhelm those terminators and make them roll 2's for the invuln. Hell, enough Dire Avenger bladestorm shots coupled with Doom will take them out.

The rest of the army is SM soft.

Telion and heavy weapons in a SM scout squad are a waste. I've found scouts work best using their cloaks and preying no CC or flamer units get over to them.

Don't get me wrong, I like the list, it's just not a beat all comers list.

nidZilla would own this list.

KeithGatchalian wrote:

Moz wrote:Additionally, why would Chronus prevent a tank from yielding it's KPs? Chronus is a unit, the tank is a unit. They would be worth 2 KPs unless something states otherwise.

Chronus is bought as an upgrade to the tank. The tank gets destroyed, he pops out and can run around....and the tank is still considered "alive". Thus, no KP until Chronus dies. He is not an independant character, nor does he count as a separate unit.

That's a fun interpretation, but I don't see what you're basing it on. Tau gun drone upgrades to vehicles would love to hear it.

I'll start a thread in YMDC and we can talk about it without derailing this.

Lysander takes away combat tactics making GoW useless.

Why not take Cassius instead for re-rolls on the charge with the assault termies?

(And then you'd have nearly all the the UM special characters in one force - very cool- just don't get them all killed or UM's will be ed)

Moz wrote:

KeithGatchalian wrote:

Moz wrote:Additionally, why would Chronus prevent a tank from yielding it's KPs? Chronus is a unit, the tank is a unit. They would be worth 2 KPs unless something states otherwise.

Chronus is bought as an upgrade to the tank. The tank gets destroyed, he pops out and can run around....and the tank is still considered "alive". Thus, no KP until Chronus dies. He is not an independant character, nor does he count as a separate unit.

That's a fun interpretation, but I don't see what you're basing it on. Tau gun drone upgrades to vehicles would love to hear it.

I'll start a thread in YMDC and we can talk about it without derailing this.

pwn

Cato & any kind of libarian w/ null zone. Possibly some form of 1+ A banner of som discription (from non-hq slot using unit)

A big-ass close combat squad (Possibly assualt termies w/ a episomthing libarian with nullzone & gate) + IRONCLADS.

Next time you are in the sin shine state stop by so I can roll u.

: )

G

Deadshane1 wrote:You know whats funny?

Seeing this list get the initiative stolen from it against a shooty list with enough ranged anti-tank to pop 2 rhino's the first turn and a single LR on the second.

You know whats funnier than that?

Seeing that same shooty army pop the two rhinos, watching the LR attempt to go over the wreckage and immobilising itself.

Now thats comedy.

I have to agree, this list is pretty bad...even if it can fight lash and biker nobs (which I doubt) It'll die against any Tau with 3 railheads and some suits, you're prolly safe though, cause you never see any of those units.

I do have to admit this army could have some problems with certain daemon builds.

G

The rule say Marneus can choose to pass or fail any test. I only need it for his pimp unit.

G

in 1750
vulkin
3 tooled out tac squads in dps
16 thunder hammer ss terms

Honestly I dont care how kick ass your 700+ point termy squad is. Kill all your lovely scouts and that one tac squad and you lose buddy.

Any good player can easily see this, so id suggest thinking about how your to keep those guys alive other then a 4+cover save.

Hey, G., its not a power build.
Its troop heavy but it lacks some more punch.

Why couldnt 9 obliterators handle the rhinos n stuff in #1? When you played lash that is.

He deep strikes the princes and Oblits. One squad of Oblite were destroyed on the mishap table.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:He deep strikes the princes and Oblits. One squad of Oblite were destroyed on the mishap table.

G

If the enemy units arrive in pieces scattering badly, then the outcome is rather clear.
G., your army is still not a power build.

Golga wrote:Honestly I dont care how kick ass your 700+ point termy squad is. Kill all your lovely scouts and that one tac squad and you lose buddy.

Any good player can easily see this, so id suggest thinking about how your to keep those guys alive other then a 4+cover save.

But isn't that the problem with every army? The point is still valid of course, but really only because of his relative lack of other targets. The land speeders, and rhinos are extensions of the troop squads, and so damaging them in essence damages the ability of the troop squads.

So mr fly, how do you intend on dealing with this problem?

Wait and see. Hee!

G

Shrike78 wrote:

Golga wrote:Honestly I dont care how kick ass your 700+ point termy squad is. Kill all your lovely scouts and that one tac squad and you lose buddy.

Any good player can easily see this, so id suggest thinking about how your to keep those guys alive other then a 4+cover save.

But isn't that the problem with every army? The point is still valid of course, but really only because of his relative lack of other targets. The land speeders, and rhinos are extensions of the troop squads, and so damaging them in essence damages the ability of the troop squads.

So mr fly, how do you intend on dealing with this problem?

Yes squishy scoring units are a problem with any list, but the DEGREE that that problem pertains to this list what's important here.

6 CC termines + LRC + Chronus + lysander + calgar = 1025 points

That means he only has 825 points remaining to capture objectives should that one squad be neutered, against the entire rest of the opponents army. Consider what sorts of units might be able to take this "monster unit" down for half the points cost, and you see why the list has a problem.

That whole unit strikes at initiative 1, so anything that makes it take an enourmous amount of saves will cause that unit some serious hurt. Imagine pitting it against a giant unit of orcs? They would all strike first, make them take some stupid number of saves, and the entire termy squad would likely fall before they even got to strike. Lysander and Calgar on their own can't take down a unit that size on their own.

What about a unit of bloodletters, with their huge number of attacks and power weapons? What about a guard player that lets you chew up a single unit of guard before dropping a demolisher cannon onto the squad? Calgar and lysander may be strong, but they won't stand up to an entire rapid-firing guard army all by themselves.

Consider things like melta bikers, LC heavy guard armies, pretty much any tau army, eldar heavy weapons, a flyrant, etc that could take out that landraider with no effort. Now all you have is a 700 point unit that moves 6" every turn. Whooptee do, why bother even dealing with this unit when you can just ignore it the whole game? Not to mention that knocking out the rhinos he's using for cover will mean the LRC wastes a turn maneuvering around wreckage or unloaded marine squads.

Yes, a single unit of scouts has a 2+ cover save, but see how that handles close combat, hellhounds, flamers, or whirlwind fire... Everything here will go down easy to shooting or close combat except for that ONE squad, that OP is hoping the enemy will spend their entire game trying to deal with?

This is by no means a power build, it's an "all eggs in one basket" list with a ridiculously powerful unit that can smash anything it comes up against IF it gets a chance to do so. Any general worth his salt just won't. He will find ways to delay the squad, and piecemeal the rest of his army that is sorely undermanned and underprotected.

eh for the 2+ cover save im thinking sterns with the cover save negating round would easily take care of them.

But no solid points all and I do agree with you.

As I said before, imagine that LR immobilising itself in difficult terrain. That one dice roll can cost you the game.

Any army that puts that much reliance on a single unit (or group of units) in order to win is a mega-fail.

This army can get beaten by a single lucky Missle Launcher shot on turn 1.

Weak.

Missile launcher cannot penetrate AV14 unless it has tank hunter, which is pretty rare these days. Sure an immobilization would suck but the odds against that happening are fairly rare... 66% chance to hit * 50% chance to make cover save * 17% chance to glance * 17% chance to roll the immobilization result on the table

G

Like I said, a LUCKY missle launcher shot.

Sure, a single missle would need big luck to immobilise a LR, but we've all seen it happen before. Stranger things have happened.

....and if it happens to this list on turn 1, like I said,

GAME OVER.

Shane get real. Are you saying the army is lacking simply because of one very low probability? If you think you can beat this army bring your best that you have and come down to Tampa. Let's see what you can do in a real game.

G

When your entire game plan can get canned by a single lucky roll?....yes, your army is lacking.

You dont build competetive armies with a single prop that when it gets blown away the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. You're whole game plan depends on a LR carrying a terminator squad....thats a weak game plan, sorry to aggravate you, I jus' calls' 'em how I see's 'em.

Shane you are all talk. Come on down and prove it on the table. Anything else is just your particular version of math hammer. Remember when you said my 13th Company sucked? Turns out it was actually a good army after all. You can talk all you want 24-7 but at the end of the day that is all it is really.

G

I don't see why everyone is complaining. GBF is talking about designing this list to beat Nob Bikers and Lash Spam, I think that it was in his first post actually.

Of course it's going to be weak against all comers (fancy that, this isn't what it's for, but then again, nowadays Lash Spam and Nob Bikers is all comers.)

That's just me though.

Of course, the best is when people come on and say, "Oh well IF I brought X, Y, and Z, I would so pwn you!"

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that if I always knew what my opponents brought to the table I'd have an advantage too. :S

:edit: @Deadshane- Yeah, well then I put the Land Raider behind cover when you fire your missile launcher. Essentially all that is created is a game of one-upmanship. And then you say, "Oh well then I counter by moving my missile launcher to where you get cover", and then I say "Well I knew you were going to do that so I move it to where you can't get me" ad nauseum. (sp?)

@GBF

@Vladsimpaler

I'm not saying "all I have to do is shoot a missle and I then do this yaddayadda"

I'm saying that a game plan is weak when you can get hamstrung by the immobilisation of a single vehicle in your army....

He's claiming this to be a power list, it isnt.

I think it can beat job bikers and lash spam. It beat lash spam. I will have to see how it does against more conventional armies. I know it can beat anything Shane puts down.

G

I dont know about you but when I attend a tournament Nob bikers and double lash aren't the only armies I see. now how about this...

My deployment on my table edge yay you're a little less than 36" away

Your turn 1
Advnace

My turn 1
Shoot the rhinos

Your turn 2
advance

my turn 2
attack bike kills the land raider orbital bombardment and vindicater your termies

Your Turn 3
advance on foot

my turn 3
vindicater and run away (repeat until dead)

While all this is happening my 2 land raider redeemers and 5 TH SS termies and peedro are killing the rest of your army

Oh did you get tabled did I take no casulties good game.

I think I just heard a toilet flush.

We're hearing something, that's for sure...

yermom it's just not that simple. Now go finish all your batreps and be a good boy.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:yermom it's just not that simple. Now go finish all your batreps and be a good boy.

G

and now you're resorting to petty insults?

you claimed your list is a powerbuild, that nobody else has thought of yet. That's a big boast GBF. Now you're getting upset when people don't agree that it is?

A powerbuild is a powerbuild because it has something in it that almost all other armies can't effectively deal with. A nob biker squad is ridiculously hard to wound, and has tonnes of wounds. Double lash armies cause serious devastation to any army they come up against. Bloodcrusher spam is much like nob bikers. They have no effective way to just deal with them. Can they be beaten? Yes. Is it super difficult for pretty much ANY army to do? Yes.

Now why do you think your build is a powerbuild? Because you have a wicked strong unit? Fair enough, but is it difficult to deal with?

The answer is of course NO. They are not scoring, and they're mounted in a landraider that just has to be destroyed. To stop a nob biker squad you have to kill ALL of the bikers, or enough to neuter the squad. With this unit, all you have to do is knock out the landraider (and in 1850 EVERY army has enough to knock out a SINGLE land raider), and then they can ignore that squad and piecemeal the rest of your army. This is not a powerbuild because it isn't that difficult to deal with, and most armies won't have all that much difficulty with it.

If your threads were labelled "a real SM ANTI-powerbuild," then you wouldn't have stoked so many flames, but you didn't. You claimed that something is a powerbuild that is quite clearly *not* a powerbuild in most people's books.

If you want to prove people wrong, don't insult them on the forums; take this list to a tournament and come out on top. Then we'll all be eating our words, and you'll be right. Until then, YOU are the one playing mathammer here, and with an army that all of the rest of us mathhammer players don't think is any good.

Green Blow Fly wrote:yermom it's just not that simple. Now go finish all your batreps and be a good boy.

G

Yes G it is that simple and what do you have to keep it from being that simple?

There are 2 reasons your army doesn't work

1 you're trying to make it run like nob bikers as far as killyness and nob bikers has 2 units of bikers.

2. You're uber unit isn't scoring nob bikers are.

MAYBE if you get another land raider 5 more termies and make both raiders regular instead of crusaider and then add some multi melta attack bikes then MAYBE it'll be a power build.

Take the advice green blow, yes your army may be good against nob bikers or lash but what about a 3 vindi space marine force? Drop pod sm. A tau fire line with 9 rail guns? That one eldar wave serpent who drops 5 fire dragons and nukes your land raider.

Your army may be fine against 2 specific builds, but other armies can and will tear you a new hole.

I agree the term power build is premature. I will take this to a big event next and see how it does. My apologies to anyone who felt slighted.

G

It would be very tempting to panic when facing an army like this. You have a big nasty terminator squad with two big nasty heroes. You have orbital bombardment, which is really scary and messes with your deployment. You have a land raider, which is always scary, and you have another two transports, one which could potentially mess up your deep strikers, and another which will provide cover for whatever unit is inside it for at least 1 turn, but more likely 2 or even 3 (1 turn if a lot of fire is focused on it or lucky rolls, 2 if the smoke does it's thing, 3 if it is positioned very well, and doesn't attract a whole bunch of fire, or its wreckage is able to provide cover for the marines).

However, dedicated fire would destroy this list. It would be difficult to decide what was the biggest threat, and what would most easily die, but a slightly above average commander wouldn't have too much trouble with this list imho.

Again, this is if they can keep a level head, and effectively prioritize targets, but...

I got scared when i saw this list

then i realised it wasn't 6 squads of terminators

now it's much less interesting

meh, next!

I forgot all about the orbital bombardment.

G

Okay so here are some of the general tactics for the list as it stands now for objective based missions. First Space Marines with mech do well in general for these missions as they are hard to move off objectives, moreso when they have some armor screening them. I know and it's been brought up that three tanks, two of which are rhinos are not that hard to take down. Therefore depending on which type army you face off against you will have to decide how you deploy. Obviously assault armies that have low high-ex gun count are easier to deal with during the initial deployment.

I believe that objective based games can have two to five objectives placed. For Take and Control I would consider keeping back the two rhinos and possibly even the LRC to defend the home objective. There is the option to deep strike Marneus and friends close to the away objective, drop the orbital bombardment and count on their armor for one turn of shooting to engage the following turn. This tactic obviously would depend on what you are up against. If you deep strike Marneus and super friends it is going to have to be dealt with by the enemy which draw their immediate attention away from the rest of the army.

In a game of three objectives you have to hold two and contest at least one for the draw. The Space Marines can put four scoring units on the table according to how I play... two tactical squads and the two scout combat squads. The scouts in the speeder are taken simply to hold or contest an objective late on the game - they are not intended for an assault role primarily. In close combat they would be nothing more than a speed bump against most other units... but they are there as a shock squad if absolutely necessary. The other scout squad is intended for harassing fire and to start off the game holding an objective. Telion does have some nice special rules that make the unit better overall in a shooting role.

Four to five objectives could be tough. You have to spread out your forces to hold more than two objectives and now you are relying on two five man scout squads to get the up done. You are going to have to take it to the opponent in these types of situations and pound them in close combat.

The two tactical squads are solid choices and each packs three meltas apiece... two of which can be fired on the move. Twenty Marines in power armor plus two special characters plus six assault Marines may not sound like much but there is a synergy.

Packing Marneus and super friends in the LRC and getting off the charge means you have the option to assault three units simultaneously as Marneus, Darnath and the assault terminators can each disembark from a separate hatch. It might not sound that great but if the two special characters can hold off a unit each for one turn their is a hood chance the following turn they will be joined by the assault squad.

In kill point missions you are going to have to keep a low profile to engage the enemy so that you can reach assault. This is a tough one as well as the 4 to 5 objectives.

So obviously the Achilles heel of this army is that a shooty opponent will try to blast your tanks out from underneath you before you can get dug in. In objective based games you place to I objectives such that you reach one or two on your first move. The same can be done for two out of three objectives depending on who places first. The five railgun Tau army is a big worry but really how often are we going to see that? Most armies don't pack as much AT as they used with one exception being the Oblit spam, which while it sounds bad at first can be managed even in a kill point mission.

So what are the top lists out there that you will see most often - while nob bikers are the red hot snizzle now I think ork hordes and Oblit spam are the two most popular. I think most SM armies are not a problem especially drop pods. The pods will have to land within assault range to fire meltas the turn they arrive and thses types of power armor units are not going to be able to stand up against the über unit in close combat.

I have played small elite mech armies before such as DeathGuard and SW... Yes there those matchups when your tanks get capped early on but now that we are playing a lot of objective based missions it does not have to cripple you. Honestly there is not much that will want to tangle with Marneus and super friends and I would and have used that psychology to my advantage.

So like I agreed it's too early to say this is a power build but I wouldn't throw it out of contention yet. There was a time when people laughed at speed freaks, feral orks and dark eldar in general.

Drop podding anything will most surely go after your rhinos, not the LRC.

Id say its not a powerbuild because an avarge Jo cudnt pick it up and do well. You sound like you will do this list justice tho IMO which is what counts, really. '

Dont forget your tank commander.. he might end up running around contesting obj's too ya know!

I'll just explain why a list like this doesn't worry me for my two main tourney armies I run right now.

My first army is an all GK Daemonhunters list w/2 landraiders. It runs 3 10-man gkt's w/no upgrades, 2 standard landraiders, dreadnought, brother-captain w/psycannon, 1x3 GKT w/2 Psycannons, and 1x4 GKT squad w/2 psycannons.

This list would love to run into yours in a standard tourney. I'd nail both rhinos turn one between the landraiders lascannons and i'd whittle away your squads while staying mobile with all my units. Calgar and his super friends would kill one unit all game based on movement which means you'll lose.

Now my other list is Nidzilla which is 6 carnies, 12 warriors, 48 gaunts, and 20 hormagaunts.

This would be a little more difficult but not by much since i'll sacrifice a single big bug for the crusader and the rhinos again will be gone on turn one, or two at the latest. the hormagaunts will smash at least one if not two marine units before dying. Your super friends will again either be completely ignored or swamped w/6 carnies if you decide to keep them close to your other units.

All in all both of my take all comers list would welcome playing this list because even if your the best player i've ever played against it would mean a nice massacre and boost in my points.

Good luck to you at the bigger events. let us know how it goes though with pictures and more details than what you've posted in your latest "battle reports"

I'm confused, in your tactica, you talk about 2 tac squads, but your list only mentions 1... that.. or I'm hallucinating again. You also mention an assault squad that is vacant in the rest of the list.

I knew that the "this is the core" was vague... but I didn't realize how vague.

This list is much stronger with the extra tac and assault squads.

I think when people simply say that haunts will catch the Marines in close combat I have to ask a question... Do you think I would just stick them out there I'm the open. They will be shut up a couple turns then counter charged. The sniper scouts are there as a harassment troop to plink off some wounds and Telion can pick his targets out of a crowd. The carnifexez will have problems with Marneus and super friends. Together the two special charscters can drop one each turn and the assault terminators the same. My army is more mobile than yours and the LRC will mince bugs. Of course I would not be foolish enough to let your MCs charge the big tank.

For the GKTs I like my odds and have meltas to drop your landraiders if they come in close. I have much better armor than the GKTs plus all my attacks insta kill your characters. I believe I also have more scoring unite and can match your mobility. Taking out the LRC with your las is feasible but I wouldn't bet the next paycheck on it if I were you. I have fought GK plenty of times, know all the tricks and don't remember ever losing to them. My meltas are a better bet for tank busting as compared with your lascannons. I am not saying you can't destroy my tanks but there is a lot more to it than.

Can we get your full army list please? Your adding thing sin that I haven't seen before.

Even a link to it will suffice.

Here is the complete list (Marneus has tactical dreadnaught armor):

Marneus Calgar
Captain Lysander
6x assault terminator squad w. thunder hammers & storm shields
Landraider Crusader piloted by Chronus

10x Scouts split into 2 combat squads:
5x Scouts (incl. Telion) w. sniper rifles & heavy bolter (hellfire rounds)
5x Scouts w. combat blades & bolt pistols
Landspeeder Storm

10x tactical Marines w. Melta/melta combi-melta & power fist - rhino
10x tactical Marines w. Melta/melta combi-melta & power fist - rhino

G

Here's my big question: What do Calgar/Lysander/Chronus add to this list that couldn't be filled just as easily or better by another Crusader and 5-8 more assault terminators?

I understand the appeal of a S10 thunder hammer, but Calgar doesn't give you much except 5 more S8 attacks. You could cut some fat and run twice as many terminators with Vulkan for re-rolls and another Crusader. More bodies, more attacks, more options. I'd consider that many Termies to be a legit power list. What's the appeal of Calgar Superfriends that I'm not seeing?

Darnath is 200 points. Calgar is 260 points. The assault terminators are 280 points. I would have to drop both HQ to field another unit of terminators in a transport. So it is not as simple as you make it sound. But certainly if I could get six more assault terminators and another LRC by dropping one of the two HQ I would probably do it. That was my big answer.

G

Yeah but you've got Chronus in there as well. He's what, 70 pts? Total of 530-ish pts between 3 things?

Random HQ - 100 pts
LRC - 250
Assault Terms -200 min

So we're already pretty close just by dropping those options for other ones, lose BS5 and ignore stun/shaken but gain twice as many shots with two vehicles, lose 3A S10 and 5A S8 with rerolls but gain 10A at S8 in another squad.

You can drop one scout squad and Land Speeder since you've now got another mobile death fortress to trick out the HQ (Vulkan) or add more termis.

So the base list would look:

Vulkan
6xAssault Termis
7xAssault Termis
2xLRC w/multimelta
Tac squad with rhino
Tac squad with rhino

That's 1640 pts only, you can fill with Scout squads, attack bikes, or more Tacticals.

Do you feel it violates the "spirit" of your list in any way? I mean, they do practically the same thing, just one has another crusader and twice as many hammers carried by more bodies.

Tell me exactly what you would drop from the current list in exchange for another squad of terminators and LRC. It looks like you suggest dropping the scouts, landspeeder Storm, both of the original HQ (or one?), Telion and Chronus. Did I miss anything? I see your core is around 1600 points so I can add back scouts and the storm.

I have seen a lot of Vulkan lists already to be honest and am trying to do something a bit different. Thank you for your input! : )

G

If not Vulkan you could do Shrike or Khan, hell, you could even do a 100 pt captain and take another vanilla Crusader and 5x Assault Terminators! That'd more than double your original number of attacks with 2 more Raiders. Short on troops, but the rolling death raiders would suck up so much fire that most guys focusing on rhinos would end up dead before they got every last marine inside of them.

So I see what you're doing, but taking Lysander and Calgar really seems to me to be 460 points of "fluff/fun list", not optimized assault.

18 assault terminators in 3x raiders... it's so tempting that I might do it myself. If you make the smaller squad transport a Redeemer, then you even have gross anti-horde ability on top of their MC/Lash/Biker crushing power.

Thanks for the idea, I think I'm going to go buy some more plastic.

Lysander and Marneus are expensive but they can kill nob biker squads. The trick is to make the rest of the army synergize with them.

G

@GBF

My point with my GK statement was that your super squad would never see combat and that I would widdle down your low model count (I think my gk list actually outnumbers this list) over the course of 5-6 turns. My LR's would never get close enough to your melta guns because unlike your LR mine are based on range. Oh, and in case you didn't notice any weapon "instant" kills my characters since they only have one wound They are psycannon platforms that plink at range and kill thru attrition then possibly counter attack if it's needed.

As for the nid list what makes you think i'd let you charge my big bugs with your super squad? If you want to get that squad to the big bugs then happily the LRC is in range for me to charge with other big bugs. So congrats you'll kill two big bugs all game with that super squad while I out shoot a marine army with bugs. And how are you gonna widdle down the hormagaunts when they are behind other units and have a cover save?

Let me make my comments easier for you. How would you beat an army that had more mobile fire power than you, can keep the distance open and who will ignore your super squad while taking out the rest of the army since true line of sight means you really can't hide anymore?

Green Blow Fly wrote:Lysander and Marneus are expensive but they can kill nob biker squads. The trick is to make the rest of the army synergize with them.

G

11 Assault Terminators (equivalent in points to Marneus+Lysander) kills Nob Bikers much more easily than those two models with the advantage of far more attacks and wounds (and a better save than Marn). What am I missing with the fixation on Calgar?

Hulksmash wrote:
@GBF

My point with my GK statement was that your super squad would never see combat...
[/i]

Why is that? Are your landraiders faster than my LRC and rhinos? In table quarter deployment I could setup just across from your DZ and force you into a corner. I could setup the objective(s) such that if you sat in your corner you would automatically lose the mission.

...and that I would widdle down your low model count (I think my gk list actually outnumbers this list) over the course of 5-6 turns. My LR's would never get close enough to your melta guns because unlike your LR mine are based on range.
[/confident]

You are that your lascannons can stop my LRC? As I have pointed out above the mission could easily dictate conditions that force you to move onto objectives. You are counting on the best possible conditions for you to win.

As for the nid list what makes you think i'd let you charge my big bugs with your super squad? If you want to get that squad to the big bugs then happily the LRC is in range for me to charge with other big bugs. So congrats you'll kill two big bugs all game with that super squad while I out shoot a marine army with bugs. And how are you gonna widdle down the hormagaunts when they are behind other units and have a cover save?

I would love for you to charge me with your big bugs. Do you really think that your big bugs could run from my LRC all game?

It sounds like your game plan is to simply run away. I don't see that as a viable tactic in objective based missions.

G

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/15 19:30:01

Post by: Black Blow Fly

sourclams wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Lysander and Marneus are expensive but they can kill nob biker squads. The trick is to make the rest of the army synergize with them.

G

11 Assault Terminators (equivalent in points to Marneus+Lysander) kills Nob Bikers much more easily than those two models with the advantage of far more attacks and wounds (and a better save than Marn). What am I missing with the fixation on Calgar?

I will ponder.



G

Reply by: asugradinwa - click to view full reply 

8411

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/15 19:52:53

Post by: asugradinwa

The synergy with Calgar & Lysander just isn't there IMO.

If the LRC's main goal is to get the Assault Terminator Squad & friends to the battlefront why pay 70 points for Chronos when you would be getting moveability for only 15 points with extra armor.

If you drop Calgar & Chronos then there are around 300 points to play with.

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/15 20:29:57

Post by: Black Blow Fly

Why would you drop Calgar over Lysander?

G

Reply by: sourclams - click to view full reply 

6872

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/15 21:25:46

Post by: sourclams

I'd take Lysander over Calgar, if that were the only choice available to me, on the basis of greater survivability (3+ invuln) and usefulness of S10 Ap1 attacks against vehicles and AV14.

Reply by: Hulksmash - click to view full reply 

8617

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/15 21:49:01

Post by: Hulksmash

You missed the point and failed to answer the question. One type of 3 deployments helps you if you get the roll and choose to set up first. Wow, so your response to my strategy of fire and movement as well as unit isolation is based upon a 16% chance. And your telling me my strategy is based on ideal conditions?

I'll stop arguing with you now since you don't actually answer the questions I pose.

Oh, and i'd take lysander over calgar and drop both the other SC's to get more stuff, either speeders, attack bikes, or podding Ironclads.

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/15 21:53:38

Post by: Black Blow Fly

Ironclads are very vulnerable to meltas the following shooting phase after they arrive via drop pods. I don't follow how you can ding my army and then says Ironclad... visions of attack bikes and landspeeders zooming up to couch you immediately come to mind. Any fast army can run circles around them.

I believe Lysander's hammer grants +1 against armor. Probably Vulkan and Lysander are the best combination... but again I want to do something different and do well.

G

Reply by: yermom - click to view full reply 

5927

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/15 22:37:10

Post by: yermom

I still don't know why you're not runnin 2 units of assault termies in 2 raiders and kantor for his + 1 A bubble. after this 20 scouts and 2 marine squds in rhinos woould work out nicely if you like put 2 combat squads of the scout squads in storms and use the other half as snipers. Then use mullti melat attack bikes to round out the list.

I would at least cosider it.

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/15 22:48:52

Post by: Black Blow Fly

When I build an army the theme is very important. I would rather have the two best HQ rather than a lot of other stuff. It's supposed to be an extremely elite army.

G

Reply by: lvyoda - click to view full reply 

681

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/15 22:58:54

Post by: lvyoda

Not that I am considering trying out this list, but I am interested in finding out how it does at a tournament.
GBF said he would be taking it in a week or so, so I would not pass judgement until then. I can understand the concern about "all the eggs in one basket" but those type armies tend to scare some players. Look at the monkey.........

GBF, please keep us updated on your tourney.

Rick

Reply by: Hulksmash - click to view full reply 

8617

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/15 22:59:15

Post by: Hulksmash

They were one of several options I put out there for you. If you read the post they were one of at least 3 quick options that came to mind.

Also you decide where the pod drops so odds are good you'll be smart enought to avoid landing next to a melta gun (though judging by the post quality to this point i do question this). And by the way if you used one, not saying you have to or that it's the best choice, it would increase the life span of your rhinos and LRC because it would be an immediate threat. And since your so worried about nob bikers it'd be great against them. It's a sacrificial unit that you use to keep the enemy off balance.

You just need to think before you....type i guess.

Good luck man, if i'm in florida next hurricane season i'll look you up and smash you up.

Reply by: Shrike78 - click to view full reply 

8506

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/15 23:56:20

Post by: Shrike78

Could you tell us what your theme is? What are you trying to accomplish with your list?

Reply by: asugradinwa - click to view full reply 

8411

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/16 00:11:53

Post by: asugradinwa

I totally understand the elite part, if it works for you then go for it. Don't get me wrong, I like Calgar. However, in an assault based army I'd go with a number of other combinations before Lysander & Calgar.

With Lysander, 6 Assault Terminators, and as Terminator Chaplin you'd have one hard hitting, rerolling squad.

My personal favorite is Lysander with some grey knight terminators- Rerolling storm bolters and strength 6 power weapons hitting on inititive 4.

Reply by: Shrike78 - click to view full reply 

8506

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/16 00:13:51

Post by: Shrike78

My personal favorite is Lysander, Tiggy, and a sternguard squad.

Sure you've busted at least 630 points on 12 guys...

But you've got a squad that can pop anything at all... in record time

sorry, way off topic

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/16 13:31:30

Post by: Black Blow Fly

The concept behind the army is to field a large number of special characters from the new codex and be able to beat non bikers and lash spam. I think if it was painted well it would look cool.

I won't be playing the army in a tournament at least for a couple months since I am presently working on my Blood Angels.

G

Reply by: Danny Internets - click to view full reply 

7183

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/16 17:00:21

Post by: Danny Internets

How is that list conceptualized around beating lash spam? There's no psychic defense--all the Chaos player has to do to beat you is stop a Land Raider, then spend the rest of the game pushing your super unit around the board. Land Raiders are tough, but not that tough.

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/16 21:41:28

Post by: Black Blow Fly

That is the typical response BUT against a smart player it just is not going to be that easy. Only a relatively inexperienced player would:

- Setup troops in range and plain LOS to lash princes
- Setup tanks out of cover and in the open for Obliterators to shoot

For lash to work the prince must have LOS. The Oblits must rely upon the lascannon until they are within 12" range or less of the LRC.

In an objective based game it is possible the tanks can simply move onto objectives the first turn and sit there for a draw.

G

Reply by: Hulksmash - click to view full reply 

8617

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 02:47:57

Post by: Hulksmash

How are they going to stay alive if they move forward and sit on an objective for 4 turns? Since your not moving i don't think you rhinos would last long and if you sitting on the objective with the landraider then the landraider won't last to long against all the combat attacks or if they choose not to assault then you definitely within their 12" bubble multi-melta range. All this is just based on a lash list.

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 04:15:31

Post by: Black Blow Fly

If the Oblits are in half range then I can charge them after they shoot.

I have played the following list:

Chaos Lord on bike w. MoN, plaguebringer, icon
Greater Daemon
3x (6x Nurgle Marines w. 2x meltagun & power fist - rhino)
6x possessed Marines w. MoN - rhino
3x (2x Oblit)

Not a lash spam list but it has a lot of the same ingredients so to speak. I never lost a game with this army so I am familiar with a lot of the basic tactics. : ) If I was playing against my Marneus & super friends list here is what I would do in an objective based game:

Attempt to move my rhinos onto the most objectives first and force Marneus to attack me. The biker lord would ride behind the rhinos and I would deep strike my Oblits using icon for a target lock. I would try to have the Oblits and Nurgle Marines positioned so that if Marneus and friends charge the Oblits I can then counter attack with the Nurgle Marines and biker lord. I would summons the greater daemon off the possessed champion so that he could assault the LRC if necessary and/or Marneus and super friends.

If Marneus and friends got onto the objectives first I would go after them and still deep strike the Oblits off the lord's icon and try to be in a position to shoot the LRC.

Obviously whoever gets to the objectives first should have the initial advantage.

G
3x (2x Oblit)

Reply by: PirateRobotNinjaofDeath - click to view full reply 

10150

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 04:44:36

Post by: PirateRobotNinjaofDeath

Green Blow Fly wrote:If the Oblits are in half range then I can charge them after they shoot.

I have played the following list:

Chaos Lord on bike w. MoN, plaguebringer, icon
Greater Daemon
3x (6x Nurgle Marines w. 2x meltagun & power fist - rhino)
6x possessed Marines w. MoN - rhino
3x (2x Oblit)

This list would crush your calgar list, hands down. It has multiple threats, several tough-to-kill scoring units, heavy support, maneuverability, and hitting power.

Your calgar list has a single, hard hitting unit with nothing to back it up. All the tactics you've come up with are ideal conditions. The nid player here has it right, a single carni in CC with that LRC would annihilate it, stranding the rest of your army. Between six MCs, he could cripple your rhino and keep that squad occupied, while still having fexes to spare to send after your soft scoring units.

I would fully agree, drop calgar and chronus. That gives you 350 points to get you a new terminator squad. Dropping calgar, chronus, and lysander gets you another 5 terminators in a LRC, along with a naked librarian. Shave off a few points somewhere and you could get chaplain whats-his-face, with his toughness 6 and FNP.

Reply by: Golga - click to view full reply 

7143

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 07:39:06

Post by: Golga

How are you suppose to keep people out of los with the new rules? so long as you see one model of that super unit their moving around at the lash players will buddy.

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 12:16:25

Post by: Black Blow Fly

The carnis can easily catch a landraider. Good thing nidz are not so popular. You had me worried for a moment there.

G

Reply by: Danny Internets - click to view full reply 

7183

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 14:48:27

Post by: Danny Internets

Golga wrote:How are you suppose to keep people out of los with the new rules? so long as you see one model of that super unit their moving around at the lash players will buddy.

Exactly what I'm wondering. Once the LR is gone the terminators are hoofing it to the other side of the board, or simply hiding. DPs are larger, helping them to see over terrain/vehicles, and much more maneuverable due to their wings. Getting LOS should be no problem unless the unit hides, in which case you're probably fighting for a draw at best in any objective-based mission.

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 15:33:09

Post by: Black Blow Fly

If this list can draw versus lash SPAM or nob bikers it has served its purpose. In a tournament you are going to be seeing these type lists a lot if you can win the first two rounds.

Anyways Danny have you ever played a lash SPAM list or are your comments pure conjecture? Lascannons in 5e are not that great against AV14.

G

Reply by: sourclams - click to view full reply 

6872

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 15:54:49

Post by: sourclams

Lascannons aren't that great but there's a good chance that Oblits will have range with multimeltas (true lash spam have lots), and it takes far, far fewer multimeltas to put the pain on AV14. If Calgar Superfriends *do* get popped out of the transport, they will be absolutely buried by wounds from shooting and / or Khorne Zerks.

Nob Bikers are still pretty much SOL, though.

Reply by: Deadshane1 - click to view full reply 

4395

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 16:38:54

Post by: Deadshane1

Green Blow Fly wrote:
Anyways Danny have you ever played a lash SPAM list or are your comments pure conjecture? Lascannons in 5e are not that great against AV14.

G

6-9 lascannons (which is what lashspam normally has) works out just fine against a SINGLE armour 14 tank. Again, all you have to do is immobilise it.

I find it strange/funny how everyone here seems to be constantly panning this list/idea but you're basically ignoring the points that they seem to make.

Maybe you know something the rest of dakka doenst?

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 16:54:40

Post by: Black Blow Fly

Shane - okay 9 las per turn. Let's be very generous to Marneus and assume:

LRC is obscured
6 have LOS the first turn

There is a good chance you will glance but not as much so for the penetration. If you do get the penetration there is still a 50% chance it will be altogether ignored. The exact odds are around 33%. Now you need to roll 4, 5, or 6 to stop the LRC... so now you are down to 1/6. Not that great but something that should not be ignored either, especially considering that I have been generous to Marneus. One way to handle this type of situation is just put the whole army in reserve.

Shane I know you don't like the army but certainly not everyone feels the same as you, as you have claimed. You are basically a math hammer guy that likes to try to play the game inside your head. That is okay but real gaming experience is a lot more valuable in my opinion.

Sourclams I agree with you about DSing the Oblits but a lot of people here said earlier that they would walk the Oblits onto the table.

G

Reply by: Danny Internets - click to view full reply 

7183

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 17:17:20

Post by: Danny Internets

Green Blow Fly wrote:If this list can draw versus lash SPAM or nob bikers it has served its purpose. In a tournament you are going to be seeing these type lists a lot if you can win the first two rounds.

Anyways Danny have you ever played a lash SPAM list or are your comments pure conjecture? Lascannons in 5e are not that great against AV14.

G

Well, I OWN one, does that count? lol. And since when is the purpose of a "power build" to simply draw? Draws don't win tournaments. Or perhaps you're finally coming around to the realization (which everyone else seems to have already reached) that this is barely a mediocre build, nevermind a good one.

Immobilizing the LR in your list makes you lose just as badly as blowing it up. 6 Obliterators have a 44% chance of either blowing up or immobilizing your LR every single turn (not counting cover) with lascannons. That climbs to 67% chance per turn with 9 Obliterators. These are not good odds when all of your eggs are in that basket.

Math:

2/3 (hit) * 1/6 (glance) * 1/6 (immobilize)
2/3 (hit) * 1/6 (penetrate) * 1/2 (immobilize, wreck, explode) *
6 (Obliterators)
= 0.4444

2/3 (hit) * 1/6 (glance) * 1/6 (immobilize)
2/3 (hit) * 1/6 (penetrate) * 1/2 (immobilize, wreck, explode) *
9 (Obliterators)
= 0.6666

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 17:25:25

Post by: Black Blow Fly

If you can draw a proven power build that says so
something. I can always DS the termies Danny boy. Do you have pix of your lash army you can post?

G

Reply by: Deadshane1 - click to view full reply 

4395

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 17:31:59

Post by: Deadshane1

Danny Internets wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:If this list can draw versus lash SPAM or nob bikers it has served its purpose. In a tournament you are going to be seeing these type lists a lot if you can win the first two rounds.

Anyways Danny have you ever played a lash SPAM list or are your comments pure conjecture? Lascannons in 5e are not that great against AV14.

G

Well, I OWN one, does that count? lol. And since when is the purpose of a "power build" to simply draw? Draws don't win tournaments. Or perhaps you're finally coming around to the realization (which everyone else seems to have already reached) that this is barely a mediocre build, nevermind a good one.

Immobilizing the LR in your list makes you lose just as badly as blowing it up. 6 Obliterators have a 44% chance of either blowing up or immobilizing your LR every single turn (not counting cover) with lascannons. That climbs to 67% chance per turn with 9 Obliterators. These are not good odds when all of your eggs are in that basket.

Math:

2/3 (hit) * 1/6 (glance) * 1/6 (immobilize)
2/3 (hit) * 1/6 (penetrate) * 1/2 (immobilize, wreck, explode) *
6 (Obliterators)
= 0.4444

2/3 (hit) * 1/6 (glance) * 1/6 (immobilize)
2/3 (hit) * 1/6 (penetrate) * 1/2 (immobilize, wreck, explode) *
9 (Obliterators)
= 0.6666

See THAT is mathhammer. I couldnt have told you that.

...I simply know what works in 40k.

So you DO have a mathhammer guy that doesnt like the list.

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 17:38:51

Post by: Black Blow Fly

Only a novice would be foolish enough to believe the Oblits will get all those shots.

G

Reply by: Deadshane1 - click to view full reply 

4395

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 17:45:34

Post by: Deadshane1

Green Blow Fly wrote:Only a novice would be foolish enough to believe the Oblits will get all those shots.

G

Only a novice would be foolish enough to believe that a single land raider has a chance of making it across the board against an army with a strong ranged shooting game.

Reply by: Beerfart - click to view full reply 

8756

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 17:54:18

Post by: Beerfart

Just a quick question...

How do slowed/weak lists make it to 4 pages?

....oh yea, after reveiw its several people saying that it sucks and GBF saying that it'll work.

4 pages of that, what a waste of time.

Get a clue, this list is horrible. Only a novice would sit there and defend a hopeless list after multiple gamers tells him it wont work.

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 17:56:12

Post by: Black Blow Fly

Oh that hurt.

LOL!

G

Reply by: Beerfart - click to view full reply 

8756

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 18:02:57

Post by: Beerfart

Green Blow Fly wrote:Oh that hurt.

Get used to that phrase, you'll be using it a lot if you run this garbage.

Reply by: Deadshane1 - click to view full reply 

4395

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 18:05:13

Post by: Deadshane1

Beerfart wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Oh that hurt.

Get used to that phrase, you'll be using it a lot if you run this garbage.

pwn

Reply by: Xav - click to view full reply 

8229

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 18:07:10

Post by: Xav

Its terrible, the only reason i looked at this thread because it said "REAL space marine power build" thought it was going to be amazing, im very disapointed.

Reply by: Nurglitch - click to view full reply 

4003

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 18:13:07

Post by: Nurglitch

It gets funnier: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/224597.page

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 18:15:23

Post by: Black Blow Fly

Looks like we are going through another of the hater clan's temper tantrum spells where they can only say juvenile stuff like:

pwn
You suck!
yadda yadda

Have fun with it.

G

Reply by: Nurglitch - click to view full reply 

4003

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 18:23:01

Post by: Nurglitch

Green Blow Fly:

To be fair, at least one of them actually is a juvenile...

Reply by: Beerfart - click to view full reply 

8756

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 18:30:24

Post by: Beerfart

Lemme give you a hint GBF. (Goonie Build Fanatic)

When was the last time you saw someone post an army list and the whole of the internet said "WOW AWESOME BUILD!" My guess is, never. Most of the time when someone posts a list (especially when it sucks, like now) people bash certain aspects of it. If you arent ready for that, dont post a list. Now, if you decide to brave the critiquing, you have two options....

1) take it personally and get defensive about your build, and learn nothing from the experience of having your army critiqued. (sort of like you've been doing since this whole thing started)

2) take what MULTIPLE people tell you (like having everyone here tell you that this list is terrible garbage) and work with it. Not once have you asked anybody here what they think you could do to make the list better, all you can do is spam that you're not a novice and you're smart enough to keep your LR obscured (as if that really means something against 9 oblits).

In my opinion, with you insisting that this list is anything other than total garbage and in no way competetive, the only way you could be dangerous on the tabletop is thru blind stupid luck or by refering to my quotation in my sig.

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 18:34:37

Post by: Black Blow Fly

Okay here is what I am keeping in the army

- Marneus, Lysander, Chronus, 6x assault terminators and LRC with multi-melta

What would you suggest for the rest of the points left over to make this a better list?

G

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

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A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 18:35:07

Post by: Black Blow Fly

Nurglitch wrote:Green Blow Fly:

To be fair, at least one of them actually is a juvenile...

In mind or age?

G

Reply by: Beerfart - click to view full reply 

8756

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 18:53:21

Post by: Beerfart

Green Blow Fly wrote:Okay here is what I am keeping in the army

- Marneus, Lysander, Chronus, 6x assault terminators and LRC with multi-melta

What would you suggest for the rest of the points left over to make this a better list?

G

Number 1 thing that people have been telling you here is that if somone can neutralise your 1000+pt single target threat here....you lose. You could have Marneus, lysander and TEN assault terminators, and people arent going to care if they're walking across the board. Imperial guard would even laugh at you while they pelt terminators with lasguns....a walking unit like that is a joke to anyone whose played for at least a couple of years.

LR's ARE tough, but they are NOT tough enough to entrust over 1000 pts to in an 1850 or 1750 list. If you lose your LR, you lose the game. If you deepstrike your terminators anywhere they're going to be a threat, you're simply standing there with an obvious nut to crack, you lose the game. This list isnt competetive in an atmosphere that you need a take all comers list. Any good player has SOMETHING to stop this army with.

You claim to be able to stop a lash list...without a shred of psychic defense. I can stop your entire battle plan with 200 pts that you cannot do squat about.

I teleport an epistolary in terminator armour behind your rhino and he vortexes your LR which is now in open sight. Your game is over. This sort of librarian isnt that far of a stretch to imagine in a tournement atmosphere.

You cannot do this sort of thing against lash lists or Nob bikers, because they either have their points spread out more intelligently (lash lists), or the expensive units are to resiliant to kill with a single shot (Nob Bikers).

1000pts in one spot does NOT work. Thats what people are trying to tell you, but you dont seem to want to listen.

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 18:59:24

Post by: Black Blow Fly

What if I start with the whole army in reserve? Your Librarian comes in first and I punk him out with one meltagun shot.

G

Reply by: Beerfart - click to view full reply 

8756

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 19:12:55

Post by: Beerfart

Green Blow Fly wrote:What if I start with the whole army in reserve? Your Librarian comes in first and I punk him out with one meltagun shot.

G

Why? because I'm stupid enough to veil him over there before there's even a target? You DO know that libby's have a power equivalant to the necron veil now right? Teleporting every turn wherever they like. Or didnt you factor that into your little equation when you were putting together your *cough* "Power" *cough cough* list? Along with conversion beamers, Shokk attack gunz, Orbital strikes, basilisks, turbo boosting MM attack bikers(or maybe they just tag along with the libby when he veils and kill you for SURE in one shot), or the plethora of other things that squash land raiders with no problem given half a chance.

Your landraider idea is what makes this list horrible, and since it IS the list....you need to start over.

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

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A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 19:21:36

Post by: Black Blow Fly

You can ask anyone I play when I run my landraiders you are not going to be able to get close enough with a deep strike to hit it with vortex or a multi-melta at half range... unless I want you to.

So anyway genius what would you change in the list to improve it, other than the units I have identified as not willing to part with?

I played a SW list back in 3rd edition with one LRC and two rhinos... it did a lot better than you might expect and I took it to quite a few tournaments. Now that the game does not revolve around victory points and the LR is much stronger that to me are two plusses. I know you have it in your head that all you have to do is stop the LRC to win, but that is not the case at all in an objective based game.

G

Reply by: sourclams - click to view full reply 

6872

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 19:32:38

Post by: sourclams

Green Blow Fly wrote:You can ask anyone I play when I run my landraiders you are not going to be able to get close enough with a deep strike to hit it with vortex or a multi-melta at half range... unless I want you to.
G

What?

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 19:35:14

Post by: Black Blow Fly

It's true.

G

Reply by: Beerfart - click to view full reply 

8756

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 19:38:35

Post by: Beerfart

Green Blow Fly wrote:You can ask anyone I play when I run my landraiders you are not going to be able to get close enough with a deep strike to hit it with vortex or a multi-melta at half range... unless I want you to.

One more time loudly for the guys in the nosebleeds....YOU DO NOT NEED MELTA TO KILL/IMMOBILISE A LAND RAIDER!

So anyway genius what would you change in the list to improve it, other than the units I have identified as not willing to part with?

Amazing, you havent heard a word I've said. You know what, nothing, keep the army as it is. Go make up another faux battle report while you're at it.

I played a SW list back in 3rd edition with one LRC and two rhinos... it did a lot better than you might expect and I took it to quite a few tournaments.

G

And I used a single unit of gretchin in the 'Ard Boyz tournements this year, and thats all. I did a lot better than you might expect too...but I still lost. /sarcasm

Reply by: Danny Internets - click to view full reply 

7183

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 19:40:58

Post by: Danny Internets

Quick thread summary for those just joining:

GBF: Dudez, check out my power list. I know it's good because I won a game with it.

Everyone: Um, it sucks. Here's precisely why (...)

GBF: You're all wrong, but I won't provide reasons why. Also, I'm angry and defensive now, rawr.

Reply by: Deadshane1 - click to view full reply 

4395

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 19:41:04

Post by: Deadshane1

sourclams wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:You can ask anyone I play when I run my landraiders you are not going to be able to get close enough with a deep strike to hit it with vortex or a multi-melta at half range... unless I want you to.
G

What?

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's true.

G

Thats right, didnt you know?

GBF has never lost a landraider to a melta gun, EVER. Dont even bother to bring them against him because it will never kill the landraider. He's that good.

Reply by: Deadshane1 - click to view full reply 

4395

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 19:42:28

Post by: Deadshane1

Danny Internets wrote:Quick thread summary for those just joining:

GBF: Dudez, check out my power list. I know it's good because I won a game with it.

Everyone: Um, it sucks. Here's precisely why (...)

GBF: You're all wrong, but I won't provide reasons why. Also, I'm angry and defensive now, rawr.

dbl pwn

Reply by: Beerfart - click to view full reply 

8756

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 19:50:35

Post by: Beerfart

I guess every village needs an idiot. Even dakka.

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 19:52:24

Post by: Black Blow Fly

I am not defensive... in fact the hater clan and their juvenile comments are making my day! : )

Anyways anyone reading all the posts will know that what you are saying is not what I am saying. Today we live in a world where it is acceptable to constantly lie on the internet when posting and run routine character assassination on a daily basis. Smart people know what is really going on and those are the ones that matter to me. Shane I do have to say that I am sad to see you are one of those that would do that kind of thing, but then again it does not surprise me.

G

Reply by: Beerfart - click to view full reply 

8756

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 20:01:53

Post by: Beerfart

Reply by: Beerfart - click to view full reply 

8756

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 20:14:41

Post by: Beerfart

.

Reply by: Beerfart - click to view full reply 

8756

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 20:14:58

Post by: Beerfart

.

Reply by: Deadshane1 - click to view full reply 

4395

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 20:32:29

Post by: Deadshane1

Character assassination....rriiiigghhhtt!

I guess I'm the only one with anything negative to say about this list.

You're the one posting an extremely off-beat list and getting angry when people tell you its no good....then doggedly defending your position without presenting any facts. Dont post extremist army-lists if you cannot take the criticism. Its not my fault you're this thin skinned. When I posted the last army list that 'I' posted, I didnt feel the need to have to defend myself against anyone that had anything negative to say about it. I listen to what they have to say, decide for myself whether or not its worth listening to, then thank them for their opinion.

Everybody here is telling you that your idea is a poor one, but you are choosing not to hear it. Everyone here is telling you that this isnt a power list, that its not even threatening in a tournement situation except against the smallest fraction of opponents. You seem to find all this as insults and you take it to the next step, everyone else then follows suit and then takes it to the NEXT step, ridiculing you to some extent.

If it makes you feel better thinking that I somehow orchestrated that, so be it. Whatever.

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 21:04:11

Post by: Black Blow Fly

Shane you are more interested in using this as an opportunity to bash me. I have asked you some questions tactical in nature that you have avoided. What you are saying is a broken record. I think if you went up against this list it would put you in a tail spin.

G

Reply by: Deadshane1 - click to view full reply 

4395

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 21:09:38

Post by: Deadshane1

Green Blow Fly wrote:Shane you are more interested in using this as an opportunity to bash me. I have asked you some questions tactical in nature that you have avoided. What you are saying is a broken record. I think if you went up against this list it would put you in a tail spin.

G

What questions have you asked ME? I've told you what I think about all this and you just dig your heels in and fire back at whatever I say. (along with whatever anyone else says)

Also, Steve since you have no idea what is actually in the armies that I run right now, since we've never played and dont play at the same store, I do beleive you're talking out of your a$$. You dont have the slightest idea of my playstyle, my armies or what skill level I play at. How could you possibly know what will stop me in a game?

Reply by: Golga - click to view full reply 

7143

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 21:40:28

Post by: Golga

kk to quell all this gak heres what i did, I took all the models I owned and made a proxy battle.

Used your amry list. and then used my list. what happened, you got the first turn and moved forwards.

My turn I dropped a pod of sternys beside your land raider. scatterd 7 inchs away. used the 2 inchs that you get to deploy os I was within half range with 3 meltas. I then procedded to blow up your tank. you get no cover save because their was nothing inbetween and you now have a unit of termies strutting across the board which i eventually wittled down with bolter fire.

Reply by: Golga - click to view full reply 

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A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 21:43:43

Post by: Golga

oh guess I forgot to post that I dropped the other stern squad beside his rhinos and killed one with plasma guns and the other I immobilized

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 21:46:14

Post by: Black Blow Fly

@ Golga - That is how you played it. I can setup such that your Sternguard cannot possibly get a shot at half range from the drop pod. It is an easy defense to run too.

@ Shane - One my main stances behind this list is that objective based games make the LRC less important. 99% or more of the posters against the list say that its main weakness is early loss of the LRC. Space Marines in general are tough to beat if they can put large squads on top of objectives early in the game. I have won many 5e games with my BA based on this tactic. It is simple and it works.

G

G

Reply by: Ozymandias - click to view full reply 

4362

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 21:49:42

Post by: Ozymandias

Aren't you and Shane both in the WC?

From this, I infer that all WC members are constantly at each others' throat.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Reply by: Golga - click to view full reply 

7143

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 21:54:05

Post by: Golga

How cna you possibly set up without hemming yourself in with terain or rhinos?

Reply by: sourclams - click to view full reply 

6872

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 21:54:25

Post by: sourclams

Although I do feel that's a reasonably accurate representation of sternguard vs Superfriends, he built it to counter lash and nob bikers.

Reply by: Deadshane1 - click to view full reply 

4395

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 21:55:55

Post by: Deadshane1

Green Blow Fly wrote:
@ Shane - One my main stances behind this list is that objective based games make the LRC less important. 99% or more of the posters against the list say that its main weakness is early loss of the LRC. Space Marines in general are tough to beat if they can put large squads on top of objectives early in the game. I have won many 5e games with my BA based on this tactic. It is simple and it works.

G

G

None of which changes anything anyone here has said. I.E. It still doesnt change the fact that if you stop the LRC and in effect, the terminators....you will lose. The game is still about killing things, something this army wont be doing against anyone with any amount of firepower.

Ozymandias wrote:Aren't you and Shane both in the WC?

From this, I infer that all WC members are constantly at each others' throat.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I'm not at anyone's throat, I'm simply expressing extreme doubt toward the viability of GBF's list.

He's getting angry, defensive and taking offense at me for doing so.

Reply by: Golga - click to view full reply 

7143

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 21:58:02

Post by: Golga

sourclams wrote:Although I do feel that's a reasonably accurate representation of sternguard vs Superfriends, he built it to counter lash and nob bikers.

Oh I fully agree with that, just giving hi the veiw point that this is not an unbreakable army.

Reply by: Deadshane1 - click to view full reply 

4395

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 22:00:33

Post by: Deadshane1

Golga wrote:

sourclams wrote:Although I do feel that's a reasonably accurate representation of sternguard vs Superfriends, he built it to counter lash and nob bikers.

Oh I fully agree with that, just giving hi the veiw point that this is not an unbreakable army.

What you posted basically, again, proves that not only is it not an unbreakable army. It proves that it DEFINATLY isnt suited to tournement play. Lash lists and Nob bikers tend to be at the upper tables....this army wont be.

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

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A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 22:01:23

Post by: Black Blow Fly

Shane come on now. You have acted like a jerk often with a lot of your posts... pwned is something I expect to hear when driving by a high school.

In general in regard to avoiding melta alpha strikes... one thing you can do is hold your army in reserve. I have mentioned this several times today. There are also deployments that will shield the LRC. I have found that if an opponent is very eager to take out one enemy unit they may expose their underbelly in doing so.

G

Reply by: Golga - click to view full reply 

7143

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 22:01:44

Post by: Golga

Truth has never being more sweeter.

Reply by: Black Blow Fly - click to view full reply 

5369

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 22:07:15

Post by: Black Blow Fly

Was something vaporized?



G

Reply by: Golga - click to view full reply 

7143

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 22:09:06

Post by: Golga

If you did thta id force you to go first if I won the roll.

Reply by: Frazzled - click to view full reply 

221

A real SM power build @ 2008/12/17 22:09:12

Post by: Frazzled

This thread is closed, pending disciplinary review of several posters' utterings.