I think this is the right place for this it is after all "Modeling and Painting"
Okay so earlier I had an idea for my second army, since a Tau Apocalypse Game only XV-8 group doesn't count apparently, a Witch Hunter Stormtrooper Army where the Inquisitor would be modeled to look like a member of the Gestapo, with brown trench coat, fedora, red arm band with the Inquisition's emblem in it. While the Stormtroopers would be painted to look like they were from one of many SS Divisions like the LAH, Viking and maybe have their Hellguns made to look like Stg44s. A friend of mine also thinks that I would need Rhino transports modded to look like Sd.Kfz. 251s. So I was wondering if the Gestapo/SS thing has been used to much on with the Inquisition and what people's thoughts and/or ideas on how to make it work are. This would be different from my Space Marines only have slight modifications and even then only on a couple models where as with this a lot more might need to be modified.
I recall him saying it was using the INQUISITION seal. Not swastika. That would mean that this is an army BASED ON, but not actually a nazi regime. As long as he doesn't go ahead and do things like draw little Hitler mustaches on units, and clearly makes them bearing 40k iconography and none of the more sinister real-life logos, this is fine.
On one hand, I think it's just asking for trouble.
On the other, I can't abide censorship. And I don't believe anyone has the right to NOT be offended by something. It's your army. Just be prepared to find some doors slammed in your face.
Essentially you want an Imperial Guard army that looks like and reflects the imposing nature of the SS (which actually fits into the Witch hunter aspect of the Inquisition)
The best thing that I believe you can do is to essentially have a witch hunter commandeering that Imperial Guard army which trains future commissars. Your army would essentially look like an army of commissars, imposing and dark with the long trenchcoats
As long as you don't paint on swastikas or the red arm bands over black uniforms, I don't see why there should be a problem with your army.
This way you can have your SS inspired army but not be crossing any lines.
I play WW2 games as the Wehrmacht and SS but that doesn't reflect my beliefs
Just remember, no swastikas, red bands or white robed cultists
if your opponent feels uncomfortable playing an army like this, thentake it inot account
Warhammer 40k is just a game but we all need to be sensitive about issues like this
I also cannot see the problem with this army, I know he has said he is making a 'gestapo/ss witch hunters army' but what exactly would be offensive about stormtroopers in black trenchcoats and bowl-shaped helmets? I mean look at DKoK, i agree that so long as BrotherStynier doesn't start slapping blatant iconography around and have a certain mono-testicled faschist dictator as a senior officer leading it then where exactly is the offence, its just stormtroopers in shiny black trenchcoats.
personally i find the look of trenchcoated guard cool, would like to see where you go with this
heh, 'a certain mono-testicled fascist dictator', I just had this image of hitler riding a giant robot spider at the head of his space-nazis.
In seriousness though, I like the idea very much. I dont think anyone would be bothered as long as you copied only the uniforms & not the iconography. I love the idea of an inquisitor in a fedora.
Aerion wrote:On one hand, I think it's just asking for trouble.
On the other, I can't abide censorship. And I don't believe anyone has the right to NOT be offended by something. It's your army. Just be prepared to find some doors slammed in your face.
Exactly.
It's your army, you can do what you like.
But if I were the Owner or TO, you wouldn't be playing something offensive like that in my store or in my tournament. That's because it'd be my store and my tournament, and the world doesn't revolve around you.
wow talk about a bunch of panzies. He didnt say "hey im a new found socialist and my way of saying Hitler was Boss, is by honoring him with a Nazi Witch Hunters army" now did he? I totally see where hes getting the inspiration from. Do I really need to make some quick comparisons? I didnt think so.
ANYWAYS to the OP I think its a good idea really. Not only that but personally I think it will look cool as hell on the table. Good luck on there. I know theres a few bitz sites that sell weapons and such from that period in time that will fit 40k scale. If not the kraut weapon your looking for possibly some converted AK-47s could look the part. show some pics when you make some progress
seriously... ok i am a bit of a fanatic about reading about the wars and such but...it's history...
everyone seems so over the top nervous when you mention the ss or germans at all...
think it would look great if you do it tastefully, that means no redarmbands, swasticas and such...
//J
sorry, got to go with the "stay the hell away from this idea" crowd.
there are so many other directions you could go, imho. hell use the
color scheme if you want, but leave the rest of that crap behind.
Aerion wrote:On one hand, I think it's just asking for trouble.
On the other, I can't abide censorship. And I don't believe anyone has the right to NOT be offended by something. It's your army. Just be prepared to find some doors slammed in your face.
Exactly.
It's your army, you can do what you like.
But if I were the Owner or TO, you wouldn't be playing something offensive like that in my store or in my tournament. That's because it'd be my store and my tournament, and the world doesn't revolve around you.
Why? Would you exclude all Flames of War games also? They revolve around one player playing the Wehrmacht.
I personally would not put any nazi iconography on them. Also remember - you cannot, cannot act in character.
On the one hand, it's completely ridiculous for people who normally relish something as dark as 40K fluff to object to people making nazi themed armies.
On the other hand, it is pointless to try and get them to change their views.
BrotherStynier, it's better to turn on a light then curse the darkness. If you keep the paint scheme but loose the armbands and avoid the swastika you should be able to sneak in under the radar.
Personally, I don't think it is a good idea to go into that grey area. But if you really feel that strongly, go for it, just understand that tournament organizers may ask you not to play. I've never played at a GT, but I hear they are more strict about these types of things. And understand you may offend people and some people may choose not to play you in friendly games.
I do agree, however, that their uniforms are really sharp.
Genocide, dictatorship, Superior Humans, work camps / slavery......I'd say the WH40K Imperium is based on the ideals of Nazi Germany.....
I don't belive the OP can win this one! Sure, he could bury his head in the sand like alot of others and try to ignore the direct comparrisons and hints, or he could embrace it and bring it to the fore....either choices could be wrong.
First and foremost....its a game! So treat it as such. Playing a Nazi based Imperial Army is no better or worse than playing any number of WWII based games where one player takes on the persona of the Nazi forces.....
If I was going to do an army based on The German Special Forces during The Second World War, I would refrain from calling it a "Nazi" Army.
What you're labelling any reference to the Wehrmacht as "yh nazii" is offensive to me also. If you choose to label an army as "Nazi" simply because of its uniform or colouring, you don't deserve the prerogatives of free speech. I admit, putting a Honking huge Swastika on a Red Armband would be offensive.
But, to take a leaf from my inspiration a-la-Warseer, sheep:
I know this will make them look like SS Troopers. I don't care.
IMO it fits with the background and the feel as the WH40k universe contains far worse attrocities than any the Nazis committed eg exterminatus. However unlike 40k they were real and as such people are worried about overt nazi references. If you were british i would suggest creating an inquisitor in the style of hitler but making him look utterly stupid like http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/?p=4021 but as ur american and as such have a less sarcastic sense of humor then i would avoid doing this army altogether although if you modeled them as nazis but then painted them like the tecnicolour dreamcoat it would be funny
Part of the reason that such "atrocities" that people use as justification for nazi armies exist in the background is because IT ISN"T REAL. This is a science fantasy game. The descriptions of the terrible acts the Imperium commits exists to, on one side, imprint upon you how the game designers want you to feel about a faction. On the other side, it exists as a means for people to control the evil in our past by cartooning it. When you openly violate that control, aware or not, you become TFG.
Use the color scheme if it affects the impression you want. This is part of Warhammer 40k. But really, if you want people to respect you don't actually use the Nazi or SS symbology. Just accept that you will become the TFG if you do this.
It's your money, your models do what you want with them.
Sooner or later people will have to learn the difference between little plastic dudes and mass murdering dick heads.
I honestly don't see why people get in to such a huff about nazi-esk armies. The only thing I see wrong wit them is they are about as original as the Ultramarines.
The Soviets killed millions of their own and I never here anyone complain when facing a Valhallan guard army.
Taliban kill dozens of their own people and no one gets miffed against someone using Tallarn.
The fact that we play a game where the fluff clearly states that there are constant genocides of all races just makes all arguments about "bad-guy" themed armies moot.
I say go for it, depending on how open your local group is.
Around here, we have a space marine player that painted all of his marines german grey, and put iron crosses and swastikas on every marine/vehicle. Guess what? Noone has been offended yet. He was a marine, and now works for one of the local fire departments - he is a patriot, and simply thinks the german theme looks cool on his marines.
I think you should ignore the crying over overly sensitive people that need to grasp the real world and do it! Its a great idea for Inquis and I for one would like to see it.
Also, a swastika is NOT a bad symbol, it is taken from a HOLY CHURCH, get over it.
Gabe wrote:I say go for it, depending on how open your local group is.
Around here, we have a space marine player that painted all of his marines german grey, and put iron crosses and swastikas on every marine/vehicle. Guess what? Noone has been offended yet. He was a marine, and now works for one of the local fire departments - he is a patriot, and simply thinks the german theme looks cool on his marines.
Nabbing colours etc is ok but swastikas are taking it a bit to far don't you think?
Long as op just wants the scheme and not the paraphernalia associated with Nazism go for it
Edit: Yes the swastika isnt a bad symbol- its originally hindu I think? But I see your american would you like it if a tallarn terrorist themed army was fielded?
Coming from Northern Ireland with a teeny history of terrorism most people would get annoyed (and rightfully so) at a terrorist themed army. Doesnt cost you much to be considerate of others. If I recall correctly your not even allowed to use Green White and Gold or Red White and Blue even if its just for fun.
Nabbing colours etc is ok but swastikas are taking it a bit to far don't you think?
Long as op just wants the scheme and not the paraphernalia associated with Nazism go for it
Edit: Yes the swastika isnt a bad symbol- its originally hindu I think? But I see your american would you like it if a tallarn terrorist themed army was fielded?
Coming from Northern Ireland with a teeny history of terrorism most people would get annoyed (and rightfully so) at a terrorist themed army. Doesnt cost you much to be considerate of others. If I recall correctly your not even allowed to use Green White and Gold or Red White and Blue even if its just for fun.
My friend painted, albeit a very poorly painted, Tallarn Army in Hamas colors and no one raised a stink at my local friendly gaming store.
I wonder how many posts this thread will get before it's locked?
aunshova wrote:Just paint the swastika the original way, before it was flipped. It means good luck.
If the OP follows this advice, you better hand him a stab vest at the same time. I'm almost 100% certain that 95% of people will see a Swastika first, and the fact that you did a little "thing" with the symbol to make it more Politically Correct a very distant second.
I think the OP needs to seriously consider his own motives for wanting to go down this road (not saying its bad!) because alot of people are most certainly going to have an emotive opinion/response towards you and your art-work one way or another! The local Neo-Nazi player at your local gaming store will think he's instantly found a friend and confidant! but the Jewsih guy who also plays there and lost great grand parents to the Holocaust will probably want to stuff your head where the sun don't shine (and no, I don't mean London!)
As long as the OP is mature enough to deal with these reactions, then yeah go for it! If not....then think twice!
But if I were the Owner or TO, you wouldn't be playing something offensive like that in my store or in my tournament. That's because it'd be my store and my tournament, and the world doesn't revolve around you.
Why? Would you exclude all Flames of War games also?
Flames is a historical game. If the German player is playing a historical unit, then that's fine.
If he's using Flames as an excuse to play up anti-Semitic themes because they're loosely-tied to the historical era and force, that's a completely different thing, and I'd kick him out.
For example, if he were playing an Early War force, then a Nazi flag draped over a command tank for aerial IFF purposes is OK. If he were playing Late War with giant Nazi flag standards being displayed prominently, then no, that's not historical, and he can go pound sand.
____
WaaaaghLord wrote:people play SS armies in historical games dont they? i fail to see the difference
The key word would be "historical".
If they did actual research on the Waffen SS, and used that actual historical unit as the basis for their army, then that's fine and appropriate.
If someone wants to play closet Nazi, do so. Just don't bring it to the tabletop.
Why take the risk though? It isn't like a good flgs is around every corner and easily replacable. There AREN"T any flgs's within an hour of where I go to school, probably not even within 2. Invocation of symbology over it's historical significance will always be taken as support or agreement. Slightly changing something to be technically different simply to have an arguing point against people who will be (justifiably) offended is sociopathic.
If I decide to make a witchhunters army out Mordheim Possessed with Necromunda Redemptionists, but paint all their uniforms and hoods white, you'd better believe I'm going to get banned from any sensible flgs. Whether I decide to actually use KKK symbology or not is a pointless technicality.
(edit:you can see the relevance because I'm from Louisiana. If you were to do an army resembling a Nazi force in Europe, you should consider moving.)
I have relatives and friends who sufferd in the German deathcamps... but as long as you dont yell Heil Hitler every 2 seconds i could not care less...
I think the style and feel fits exactly with the feel of the inquisition so you should do what you like just expect sensitive people to be offended and think hard iff thats worth it to you...
Railguns wrote:Why take the risk though? It isn't like a good flgs is around every corner and easily replacable. There AREN"T any flgs's within an hour of where I go to school, probably not even within 2. Invocation of symbology over it's historical significance will always be taken as support or agreement. Slightly changing something to be technically different simply to have an arguing point against people who will be (justifiably) offended is sociopathic.
If I decide to make a witchhunters army out Mordheim Possessed with Necromunda Redemptionists, but paint all their uniforms and hoods white, you'd better believe I'm going to get banned from any sensible flgs. Whether I decide to actually use KKK symbology or not is a pointless technicality.
(edit:you can see the relevance because I'm from Louisiana. If you were to do an army resembling a Nazi force in Europe, you should consider moving.)
1. Its not justified to be offended by his army, it just shows how misinformed you are.
2. The KKK (Like Hitler did with the Swas) stole there uniform from a CHURCH, why do people insist on ignoring everything good about symbols because one person/Group changed the meaning for them selves?
Many years ago at a historical miniature convention, (Cold Wars), one group was reenacting Battle of Arnheim bridge. This pitted the SS vs British paras. At the begining of the game British players were given red berets, SS was given Nazi insignia caps to wear.
This caused quite a stir as many were offended by the representation of the Nazi regalia. Hence all forms of this type wear was prohibited. This was historical and wasn't appreciated, I don't think it would in 40K
RB wrote:Many years ago at a historical miniature convention, (Cold Wars), one group was reenacting Battle of Arnheim bridge. This pitted the SS vs British paras. At the begining of the game British players were given red berets, SS was given Nazi insignia caps to wear.
This caused quite a stir as many were offended by the representation of the Nazi regalia. Hence all forms of this type wear was prohibited. This was historical and wasn't appreciated, I don't think it would in 40K
This proves my point that today's world is a filled with overly sensitive twits that need to get over then selves.
Every one has a right to model and paint there little army men any way they wish, no one has any right to tell them they can't do one thing or another.
I'm not saying that usage of symbolism is inherently BAD. I'm saying that there is due cause to consider how your portrayal will sit with others. Yes, I know where the KKK came from; I've read about their origins and how they became the organization that they are. But I am also aware that it is likely to get me ostracized socially If I go around trying to argue to people why a KKK army is okay and they are just twits for being offended. It's sociopathic.
And symbols evolve with the societies that use them. That is the entire point of a symbol; to invoke feelings and ideas that are associated with it. Actions speak louder than words and last much longer in our collective memory. It doesn't matter what a symbol originally meant hundreds of years ago or decades ago or what have you. If a terrorist organization decided that they wanted to use the Mcdonalds Golden Arches as some sort of ironic symbol of their expoits and then subsequently bombed hundreds of hospitals and churches in a western country then people will associate the golden arches with it, regardless of the fact that millions of little hamburgers were sold under them. Arguing that people need to ignore the new meaning in place of the old one is almost insane and in defiance of reality.
I hate to agree with JHDD but really, think about it before you do it. There are other people in the world besides yourself. The gaming table is not a place for arguing philosophical or political distinctions.
Gabe wrote:I say go for it, depending on how open your local group is.
Around here, we have a space marine player that painted all of his marines german grey, and put iron crosses and swastikas on every marine/vehicle. Guess what? Noone has been offended yet. He was a marine, and now works for one of the local fire departments - he is a patriot, and simply thinks the german theme looks cool on his marines.
Nabbing colours etc is ok but swastikas are taking it a bit to far don't you think?
Long as op just wants the scheme and not the paraphernalia associated with Nazism go for it
Edit: Yes the swastika isnt a bad symbol- its originally hindu I think? But I see your american would you like it if a tallarn terrorist themed army was fielded?
Coming from Northern Ireland with a teeny history of terrorism most people would get annoyed (and rightfully so) at a terrorist themed army. Doesnt cost you much to be considerate of others. If I recall correctly your not even allowed to use Green White and Gold or Red White and Blue even if its just for fun.
I wouldn't care if someone painted up an army with an islamic terrorist theme. If the person had a bomb strapped to themselves and they were yelling "Allahu Akbar!" I might have a problem, but otherwise... they're just miniatures.
Really - lets admit it. Though nazis had some awful (not to mention misled) beliefs, they had everything going for them looks wise. Why do you think Hitler gave the most power to his propagandists? So they could make the most striking uniforms and emblems, to convey a symbol of power.
really, America should stop singling out and shunning anything semi controversial while not giving a sh-t about real issues like poverty. I guess abortion and gay rights are more important then people dying in the streets.
Anyway, sorry about my soapbox.
if you do run into trouble, just do what WW2 video games do when they are sold in Germany - just take out the swastikas.
Hey I never said they didn't look sharp.
It isn't just Americans who don't like it, its just about anyone. Also, the discussion wasn't about other issues. I appreciate your stance, but we weren't singling out anything here, we are discussing one topic.
For the record, one of my former professors was German. Once he wandered into the topic and spent about 15 minutes absolutely lambasting the Nazi's and Hitler. I don't think there is any question how some people feel about it and whether those feelings are justified.
Really - lets admit it. Though nazis had some awful (not to mention misled) beliefs, they had everything going for them looks wise. Why do you think Hitler gave the most power to his propagandists? So they could make the most striking uniforms and emblems, to convey a symbol of power.
Yep - LOL - people xenophobic attitudes are coming out against the German WWII guy!
The uniforms are cool, look sharp, make a good looking army and would no doubt be fun to play.
I would even call them something like "Space Naziis from Echelon VII" - in memory of the B grade science fiction movies of yesteryear.
Really, if you are heavily offended by paint on little plastic men, you need to get out more.
Gabe wrote:I say go for it, depending on how open your local group is.
Around here, we have a space marine player that painted all of his marines german grey, and put iron crosses and swastikas on every marine/vehicle. Guess what? Noone has been offended yet. He was a marine, and now works for one of the local fire departments - he is a patriot, and simply thinks the german theme looks cool on his marines.
Nabbing colours etc is ok but swastikas are taking it a bit to far don't you think?
Long as op just wants the scheme and not the paraphernalia associated with Nazism go for it
Edit: Yes the swastika isnt a bad symbol- its originally hindu I think? But I see your american would you like it if a tallarn terrorist themed army was fielded?
Coming from Northern Ireland with a teeny history of terrorism most people would get annoyed (and rightfully so) at a terrorist themed army. Doesnt cost you much to be considerate of others. If I recall correctly your not even allowed to use Green White and Gold or Red White and Blue even if its just for fun.
I wouldn't care if someone painted up an army with an islamic terrorist theme. If the person had a bomb strapped to themselves and they were yelling "Allahu Akbar!" I might have a problem, but otherwise... they're just miniatures.
People are overly sensitive these days....
Nuts...there goes my ideas for Tallarn Demo Charge Models...
You know, if the OP had said that they wanted to do a WH stormtrooper army using DKOK and painted in german army grey circa 1938-1944, no one would have started telling him not to do it.
To the OP: if you want to use this army in tourneys and store games, be very careful about your color schemes and what you represent. You can be asked to leave and told to not bring your army back. Personally, If I owned a store, I would be more inclined to tell players with unpainted armies to leave and not to bring them out until they are painted...or better still, I wouldn't ask them to leave, but I would award players with fully painted armies with discount cards.
If you aren't worried about "official" games and tourneys, I would look at the WW2 figs from Artizan Designs. Far less conversions to do that way.
For me, if I were to do something along these lines, I would use the DKOK Grenadiers as my stormtroopers and the various commissars as the inquisitorial retinue.
We aren't telling him not to use the colors; just to avoid the Nazi symbology. It's a small, easy compromise to have the look you want that avoids unnecessary conflict with others. Whats wrong with that?
Well thanks for everyone's opinions on the matter but to those of you worried about me using the Swastika or the SS runes haven't read the post fully I said I would have an arm band but there wouldn't be a swastika but the emblem of the Inquisition. As far as the SS themed stormtroopers go I was just gonna have the Oak themed colors or straight black uniforms with white belts and somethings that are based off the iconography.
I know about WWII and the SS I am not a beginner when it comes to this and know what I'd be getting into. I also don't care what GW says I mainly play in home games. In fact my group is coming up with our own campaign, I just like showing GW what I have and finding out what they think.
I didn't think this would attract this much controversy sure the Nazis were bad, but I figured most people had accepted that and started to move on acknowledging that they were bad and should never return but accepting that people would have a certain interest in them.
check the symbol on the arm band..
"swastika"?
i know that the finnish suncross is the same symbol only it is the other way, instead of being bent to the right the lines are bent to the left.
i think that when ever you pull it up (and especially when you mention the ss) people get really nervous or offended.
i posted a thread about making ig look like ss (without the obvious symbols) and all the responses i got was all "ooh my god, there's a nazist on our forums" it ain't that funny to get that type of response, and since someone answeared with the words " why diden't you just say that you wanted to make brittish soldiers in trenchcoats?", i got sort of pissed since that woulden't be a correct description of what i was trying to do.
i don't know who said it but it's true:
"History is written by the victorious"
(disclaimer)this is in no way supposed to be supporting what the nazis did.
after all it's just plastic figures!
//J
JokerGod wrote:Also, a swastika is NOT a bad symbol, it is taken from a HOLY CHURCH, get over it.
It's been tainted, however. That's unfortunately how things work. In a way saying it's "Not a bad symbol" is as wrong as denying the events of WWII, at least in my mind. Hitler and his pals crapped all over a lot of symbols and names, although admittedly that was pretty minor compared to the more blatant atrocities.
Historical WWII gaming gets a pass. The 'why' of this is complicated, and I'm not quite sure myself. Is it because the games have an educational component (If so, then the WWII FPS that were big a few years back need to be discussed.) is it ebcause someone has to play the bad guy? I'm honestly not sure, but it doesn't bother me as much.
For this, I just don't see the point. WWII would have been ancient history by the time of the 41st millenium. Symbols may have been reclaimed, but it's equally likely they've been forgotten, too.
I'd say don't do it. If it bothers you enough to ask,t hat's probably a sign right there.
my god I cant beleive this is still going. Even IF the OP was a pro nazi who cares? He would be a dick in my mind, but if he wants to be that way, go for it. Thats the beauty of living in a free country. Hell I dont even remember who the OP was lol just paint YOUR army the way YOU want to paint them. And dammit I want some turtle pie now...... CRAP!
Hi all.
I live in Colombia, a country that has a history of war, narcotrafic, drugs, violence and more nonsense like lots of other countries.
Recently I saw a Catachan IG army with a paint scheme related to the guerillas and guess what we, in the gaming club, said?
Cool!!
Its a plastic miniature game, not propaganda of some stupid political thing, god, even one of the objective markers had white bags (resembling a bag of drugs), it is fictional!!!
It didnt matter, even the store owners said it was cool!!
So, if you like that scheme of painting then do it, it doesnt matter what others say, its your army, you can do what you want with it!!
In the case that some of the players in your gaming club had some issues with your theme it's not your fault that he feels offended, it is a game!!! if he/she cant diferentiate it from the real life is he/she the one that really has problems.
Maybe im a little too fixated in this but its that I really think it's really dumb to feel ashamed of historical things, every person is different and everyone has the rights to do with his things what he/she wants.
And you won me, hehehe, I was going to do that same paint scheme but with daemon hunters instead of witch hunters, and obviously IG.
Now, sorry if I offended someone with my thoughts and what I just writed but a game is a game, thoughts are thoughts and people are people, each one different than the other, thats what make us unique, we have to corelate with each other and understand us all so this war and things like that doesnt happen again!!
I would only steer clear of using the iron cross, or other german army insignia, and avoid swastikas all together.
However the feel of army does sound great, and i think using what most of us asociate with facism to represent the rather facist imperium is a natural link. Good luck with it all
Though i am wondering how the hell you will get a rhino to end up looking like a Sd.Kfz. 251
Do you plan on drawing a mustache on yourself when you play your games? Are you going to dress formally with a red armband with swastika? Are you going to curse profusely in German and spit out anti-semetic ideas and blame the jews when you are losing the game? If that's the plan, I would say avoiding this project.
If none of these things above apply, then I believe you are clear side of the line that divides reality and fiction.
I think it sounds like a cool idea, and it could take some fun converting to get it done nicely. I have a friend who did something similar with a bunch of orcs.
In any case, making themed armies is fun if you have the time for it, and I think it'll look great.
To those who seem to be against this display of creative freedom: Do you actually, really know people that would take offense to some painted miniatures? Are people truly that naive? I can think of loads of more pressing matters to be offended by. ^^
In any case, good luck with the conversions et. al. and please keep us updated with some pictures when you get going.
Salad_Fingers wrote:
Though i am wondering how the hell you will get a rhino to end up looking like a Sd.Kfz. 251
Lots of plastic card I would assume. I have an image of what needs to be done in my mind, and when ever I finish the SMs I still need to build and paint. I will start work on the Rhinos, commit myself to the army before I change my mind, and hopefully the new Stormtrooper models will be out by then.
So....my Red Army Commisar led Conscript themed army is ok...even though their politics were the one in the same that led the world into a stand still where people were afraid to breathe due to the prospect of a nuclear weapon being dropped on their home town? Not to mention, more people lost their lives during the Cold War than all other wars combined if you count the brutal dictators that the US and Soviets backed to keep the expansion of the others political ideas at a halt.
So, by that logic any army based on anything from our real world should be heinously offensive and should be denied play on a table top. Don't forget the bricks that we should all carry in our backpacks to throw at those self righteous bastards on the other side of the table fielding such travesties...
Kej wrote:So....my Red Army Commisar led Conscript themed army is ok...even though their politics were the one in the same that led the world into a stand still where people were afraid to breathe due to the prospect of a nuclear weapon being dropped on their home town? Not to mention, more people lost their lives during the Cold War than all other wars combined if you count the brutal dictators that the US and Soviets backed to keep the expansion of the others political ideas at a halt.
No no no, you don't understand.
Hitler was evil in a way that no one else ever has been, or ever will be.
I mean, he killed - well, less people than Stalin - but he was racist too.
Well, actually Stalin was also racist, killing ethnic Poles, Koreans, and eventually hating Jews as well.
Kej wrote:So....my Red Army Commisar led Conscript themed army is ok...even though their politics were the one in the same that led the world into a stand still where people were afraid to breathe due to the prospect of a nuclear weapon being dropped on their home town? Not to mention, more people lost their lives during the Cold War than all other wars combined if you count the brutal dictators that the US and Soviets backed to keep the expansion of the others political ideas at a halt.
So, by that logic any army based on anything from our real world should be heinously offensive and should be denied play on a table top. Don't forget the bricks that we should all carry in our backpacks to throw at those self righteous bastards on the other side of the table fielding such travesties...
are you trolling or you really cant see the difference between Hitler and Stalin?
enmitee wrote:ok personally, i think the OP is full of BULL SH*T. no pics. so we really dont need to keep talking about this if the OP is full of BULL SH*T.
How am I full of BS if I said that i was thinking of creating an SS/Gestapo themed army, not making but thinking of making, eventually.
no im saying why are people ranting about it if you probably arent gona post jack in the first place.
EDIT: anyone can say, "oh im gona make some army based on something very controversial to people" just to press on people's button without having the crap to show for it.
I do not see the issue with this army at all, nor do i see an issue with Swastikas, Iron Crosses, or any other obviously Nazi iconography. Hell, throw some SS lightning bolts on the helmets. If you do it, you do it all, 'nuff said. It is the iconography of the army, it wouldn't be complete without it.
It is a very sound theme for ANY imperial army, perhaps not SM, but any other imperial army would work with this.
It is the same as using the Red Army as a basis for an army. As it was said before, face it, they looked cool. No one can deny that there is a very efficient and powerful looking, let alone acting, army. Nothing wrong with trying to convey that onto the table. Just don't go dressing like hitler and you'll be all good.
(just a side note: Hitler may have been a fething ass, but stalin was worse. Stalin killed such a staggering number of people, HIS OWN people. Both should enjoy the pinapples they are getting up their asses in hell right now)
People play historical war games as well, and they have models that actually look like Nazi's to begin with. So what is the issue with making an IG army look like the SS? Simple fact, there isn't.
And if you take offense, well, sorry but you don't have the right to not be offended. Just ignore the thread, and get on with your lives.
to be perfectly honest I understand the importance of respecting the victims of the holocaust and understanding the vileness of the crimes of the NAZI regime but...
as one of the brains behind this army there "will be NO swastikas" insignia will strictly be the and the Aquila" the camouflage will be oak fall and there will be characters in trench coats If this army even gets built...
If you dislike the design because it is similar to the SS and the Gestapo I am sorry, I truly am... however we had agreed at the beginning that NAZI iconography and symbols should be left out though the liveliness of this tread had made us joke about putting the double s simply to spite those that actually look that closely at the model
Its the whole possibility that I may create an Army based off of evil people and bring it into their game which in no way has any coloration with things that have happened in the past. Nope nothing in this game is based of off something taken from real life. They also presume that because I want to make this army that I am some sort of Neo-Nazi.
As for pictures, I will most likely be starting work on the creation of the Rhino Sdf Kfz 251 this weekend.
when you have a thread worth 3 pages long,
-no pics of painted mini
-no pic of anything period
-army based on sensitive issue
= you get yourself this.
Cant really blame the people to react this way.
Well excuse me for thinking I could come to a web site for hobbyists of the game and post an idea i had for an Army and post it hoping to get figure out what people would think of the idea and hopefully get some suggestions or something. As well a have a foundation ready for when I actually have pictures of the army.
when you have a thread worth 3 pages long,
-no pics of painted mini
-no pic of anything period
-army based on sensitive issue
= you get yourself this.
Cant really blame the people to react this way.
Well excuse me for thinking I could come to a web site for hobbyists of the game and post an idea i had for an Army and post it hoping to get figure out what people would think of the idea and hopefully get some suggestions or something. As well a have a foundation ready for when I actually have pictures of the army.
er im not offended or anything, just pointing out the truth.
and you are hoping to figure out what people think about the idea....
well this thread already expressed much about what they think....
and here is my personal opinion... ImO nazi is thing in the past , it doesnt bother me.
But there are people around that has family effected by Nazis...
the real question here now is
" even though you dont care, most of us dont care, do you have the compassion
and respect for those that DOES care? "
Yes I do have the respect for those that are affected, that's why I'm not putting Swastikas on every thing and SS lightning bolts on the collars of all the Stormtroopers.
I am not doing this to offend people, nor am I doing it because I am a neo-nazi or anything like that. I'm doing it because I think the Witch Hunters reflect the SS and Gestapo quite nicely, and think that they would make a great theme for them.
If anything this project will be paying homage to WWII modeling where I started after seeing my dad build WWII models my whole childhood, in a way its bringing me full circle in the world of modeling.
BrotherStynier wrote:Yes I do have the respect for those that are affected, that's why I'm not putting Swastikas on every thing and SS lightning bolts on the collars of all the Stormtroopers.
I am not doing this to offend people, nor am I doing it because I am a neo-nazi or anything like that. I'm doing it because I think the Witch Hunters reflect the SS and Gestapo quite nicely, and think that they would make a great theme for them.
If anything this project will be paying homage to WWII modeling where I started after seeing my dad build WWII models my whole childhood, in a way its bringing me full circle in the world of modeling.
i believe your intentions are innocent. but thats irrelevant imo. if you play with friends only, its fine.
but if you bring that in public, result might not be pleasant.
im just expressing my thoughts on what other's might think
when they see it.
*shrug maybe op should figure it out himself first hand.
he can march into veterans day in a nazi uniform and see what hppens.
bad taste? insensitive? crazy?
i dunno
I find that funny because some friends of mine once did a parade where they were wearing German uniforms because the American ones were too dirty... so said the parade organizers (a few had American jackets but the Vets agreed that it was the spirit of the march so they went I would have but finals were taking my time)
Also we once went through a drive through in a kublewagen with SS uniforms asking about the "Apple Jews"...The joke was understood on all sides especially by the a Jewish acquaintance of mine who dressed up in the SS regalia as well.
I prefer to believe that it is the spirit of the action and the intent behind it rather than the actions appearance...
*shrug maybe op should figure it out himself first hand.
he can march into veterans day in a nazi uniform and see what hppens.
bad taste? insensitive? crazy?
i dunno
I find that funny because some friends of mine once did a parade where they were wearing German uniforms because the American ones were too dirty... so said the parade organizers (a few had American jackets but the Vets agreed that it was the spirit of the march so they went I would have but finals were taking my time)
Also we once went through a drive through in a kublewagen with SS uniforms asking about the "Apple Jews"...The joke was understood on all sides especially by the a Jewish acquaintance of mine who dressed up in the SS regalia as well.
I prefer to believe that it is the spirit of the action and the intent behind it rather than the actions appearance...
k, please excuse me and the others that are against it to be overly paranoid.
*shrug maybe op should figure it out himself first hand.
he can march into veterans day in a nazi uniform and see what hppens.
bad taste? insensitive? crazy?
i dunno
I find that funny because some friends of mine once did a parade where they were wearing German uniforms because the American ones were too dirty... so said the parade organizers (a few had American jackets but the Vets agreed that it was the spirit of the march so they went I would have but finals were taking my time)
Also we once went through a drive through in a kublewagen with SS uniforms asking about the "Apple Jews"...The joke was understood on all sides especially by the a Jewish acquaintance of mine who dressed up in the SS regalia as well.
I prefer to believe that it is the spirit of the action and the intent behind it rather than the actions appearance...
k, please excuse me and the others that are against it to be overly paranoid.
no problem, to be honest I was scared beyond belief when we actualy got to the window at the drive-in Oh and I think there might be some prototypes up tomorrow evening
*shrug maybe op should figure it out himself first hand.
he can march into veterans day in a nazi uniform and see what hppens.
bad taste? insensitive? crazy?
i dunno
I am fairly certain my dear Sir that I do know the difference first hand, as a former member of the military(medically discharged looking to get back in).
LunaHound wrote:
i believe your intentions are innocent. but thats irrelevant imo. if you play with friends only, its fine.
but if you bring that in public, result might not be pleasant.
im just expressing my thoughts on what other's might think
when they see it.
dunno , hard to say without pics
With pictures I am sure that people will assume the same thing they have this whole time which is fine, knowing that most people would view it as Pro Nazi and insensitive is fine that's their opinion. I want to make this army fictional yes, but I want it to bear a semi realistic feel to it, so if I make a Leman Russ you can bet your ass that I will consider greenstuffing a flag over its engine compartment that is red and white with a black emblem of the Inquisition in the center.
This weekend I will bring up this idea with my local GW who I am sure will not care, they are more interested in getting me to play games there than turning me away. IF they do care than thats fine I still have my Space Marines, which are not Nazi themed and will eventually have their own thread here complete with pictures .
DemolitionMonk wrote:no problem, to be honest I was scared beyond belief when we actualy got to the window at the drive-in Oh and I think there might be some prototypes up tomorrow evening
i didnt mean that as an apology.
*edit.
im out, not getting anymore involved in this.
hope OP already seen enough reactions hence fulfilling the purpose of this thread. myself have no right to be lecturing about sensitivity.
Isn't the entire Imperium of man fluff a mangled parody of all the worst parts of right wing twentieth century politics, with the worst parts of medieval religious zealotry, superimposed into a futuristic setting, with psykers and mutants replacing the real heretics of earths past, and aliens replacing the ethnic minorites?
The whole setting is full of talk about racial purity and dodgy ideas that would seem to legitimise eugenics if you took them seriously. Then there's religious crusades, purges and just about everything else short of actually putting death camps in there.
Modelling witch hunters as nazis seems entirely appropriate to me, as if you really objected to that sort of stuff, you'd have never set foot in a games workshop store again after the first time you opened a rule book.
Not to mention the fact that the theme of the official models already draws heavily on the spanish inquisition, and that's right up there with the most evil and politically abhorrant things in human history.
wiggles wrote:Isn't the entire Imperium of man fluff a mangled parody of all the worst parts of right wing twentieth century politics, with the worst parts of medieval religious zealotry, superimposed into a futuristic setting, with psykers and mutants replacing the real heretics of earths past, and aliens replacing the ethnic minorites?
The whole setting is full of talk about racial purity and dodgy ideas that would seem to legitimise eugenics if you took them seriously. Then there's religious crusades, purges and just about everything else short of actually putting death camps in there.
Modelling witch hunters as nazis seems entirely appropriate to me, as if you really objected to that sort of stuff, you'd have never set foot in a games workshop store again after the first time you opened a rule book.
Yes history repeats itself. ( jist of what you said )
but no need to glorify the past specific sins ( jist of the reactions in this thread )
wiggles wrote:Isn't the entire Imperium of man fluff a mangled parody of all the worst parts of right wing twentieth century politics, with the worst parts of medieval religious zealotry, superimposed into a futuristic setting, with psykers and mutants replacing the real heretics of earths past, and aliens replacing the ethnic minorites?
The whole setting is full of talk about racial purity and dodgy ideas that would seem to legitimise eugenics if you took them seriously. Then there's religious crusades, purges and just about everything else short of actually putting death camps in there.
Modelling witch hunters as nazis seems entirely appropriate to me, as if you really objected to that sort of stuff, you'd have never set foot in a games workshop store again after the first time you opened a rule book.
Yes history repeats itself. ( jist of what you said )
but no need to glorify the past specific sins ( jist of the reactions in this thread )
serio0usely.. why do i even need to ... nvm
I'm just saying, i don't think he's glorifying anything. I don't think it's possible to with a paint job on some toy soldiers, really. Just like the 40K fluff referencing events from 20th century and medieval history to give the backstory pathos isn't glorifying those events, I don't think parodying or drawing on the imagery of those events as a theme for an army is either.
It might offend people who are sensitive to the subject matter, and don't even like to see nazi influenced imagery, but those people ought to be just as offended by stuff in the official GW lines anyway. It's the ideas that are dangerous, not the aesthetics, which are kind of cool, and have been recycled in fiction to make cool bad guys over and over again.
the question is do you respect their reason to be offended ? ( no matter what your intention may be)
remember irl people wont reason with you as we do in forum. they judge you for it.
ah the great reasoning of the forums... I find it that in Real Life however people judge you they normally are face to face with you and it does not just come down to speech as talking never convinced anyone of anything.
I respect that people believe that some things are taboo or bad manners or even bad form, I understand that experience shapes us all and more often the not opinions will not align.
I respect that you might be offended by an action of mine, to be truthful I am sorry if anyone takes me as cold-hearted but I understand and respect you none the less. I believe that a winning smile and proper explanation can convince anyone that at least I have a reason for what I do. I have nothing but the greatest respect possible for those who fought and those who gave their lives to fight oppression such as the Nazis.I have been called many things over the years and all I can say is "sorry for offending you, wish you and me could have gotten better acquainted before you drew that opinion of me" if I accidentally burn a bridge or two due to my actions that really is too bad.
Now I'll get off my soapbox, sorry for ranting abit and meandering some with the topic.
I'm just saying, i don't think he's glorifying anything. I don't think it's possible to with a paint job on some toy soldiers, really. Just like the 40K fluff referencing events from 20th century and medieval history to give the backstory pathos isn't glorifying those events, I don't think parodying or drawing on the imagery of those events as a theme for an army is either.
It might offend people who are sensitive to the subject matter, and don't even like to see nazi influenced imagery, but those people ought to be just as offended by stuff in the official GW lines anyway. It's the ideas that are dangerous, not the aesthetics, which are kind of cool, and have been recycled in fiction to make cool bad guys over and over again.
Just my two cents. I like the idea.
lets just leave it at that ok?
and it goes back to questiion i kept asking.
-whether or not you respect their reason for been sensitive about it.
I'll just leave one example you guys be able to relate to.
If i make a bunch of deff kopta army piloted by tallarns , with flying base = WTC towers , just tell me if i can enter that into a tournament
without getting booted out ( saving all the used excuse everyone gave so far ) you think people will listen?
Take the uniform colours from Nazi Germany, hell GW base many figure on the design of german uniform. But don't go with the iconography, swastikas and the like, uniform colours are fine.
Making an army in the fashion doesn't make you pro-nazi. Does painting the praetorians in red with white helmets make you pro-british colonialism?
I'm just saying, i don't think he's glorifying anything. I don't think it's possible to with a paint job on some toy soldiers, really. Just like the 40K fluff referencing events from 20th century and medieval history to give the backstory pathos isn't glorifying those events, I don't think parodying or drawing on the imagery of those events as a theme for an army is either.
It might offend people who are sensitive to the subject matter, and don't even like to see nazi influenced imagery, but those people ought to be just as offended by stuff in the official GW lines anyway. It's the ideas that are dangerous, not the aesthetics, which are kind of cool, and have been recycled in fiction to make cool bad guys over and over again.
Just my two cents. I like the idea.
lets just leave it at that ok?
and it goes back to questiion i kept asking.
-whether or not you respect their reason for been sensitive about it.
Certainly. People can be offended by anything they like. I personally am deeply offended by lots of things other people accept as mundane, or even consider admirable. But if Nazi imagery really offends somebody that much, I wonder how they manage to not be offended by the bulk of contemporary fiction.
If I made a nice looking nazi themed IG army (as if the standard one wasn't Nazi themed enough already) and I took it to somebodies house and they were offended, I would certainly not bring it again. That's just being polite.
Howard A Treesong wrote:Take the uniform colours from Nazi Germany, hell GW base many figure on the design of german uniform. But don't go with the iconography, swastikas and the like, uniform colours are fine.
Making an army in the fashion doesn't make you pro-nazi. Does painting the praetorians in red with white helmets make you pro-british colonialism?
exactly, TBH i LOVE their uniform from design point. just dont paint the swaztika or anyhting resembling that and its OK
wiggles wrote:
Certainly. People can be offended by anything they like. I personally am deeply offended by lots of things other people accept as mundane, or even consider admirable. But if Nazi imagery really offends somebody that much, I wonder how they manage to not be offended by the bulk of contemporary fiction.
If I made a nice looking nazi themed IG army (as if the standard one wasn't Nazi themed enough already) and I took it to somebodies house and they were offended, I would certainly not bring it again. That's just being polite.
If OP put effort to painting an army, im pretty sure he want to be able to use it as often as he can ( without suffering any kind of restrictions hence why HE ASKED ).
I know you can choose to not bring it again to that person 's house like you said. But what if he plays in a shop, or a game store? Then the OPTIONs wont be so lenient like your situation.
Also consider the posibility of reselling the army when OP gets bored of it ( its going to be alot harder i know it )
So by you saying as long as I don't have the Swastika or anything resembling it, than its fine? Well its a good thing im using this then huh?
Yes if I made this army I would want to use it in a GW store, I want to use all of my armies in a GW store eventually. But I have no shortage of the stores near by, there are three standard stores and the battle bunker in my area so I am certain that at least one would be fine with it. As far a home games go no one I know will have a problem.
If this thread can accurately show what at least some gamers think than it looks more like the army would be fine in some places.
BrotherStynier wrote:So by you saying as long as I don't have the Swastika or anything resembling it, than its fine? Well its a good thing im using this then huh?
Yes if I made this army I would want to use it in a GW store, I want to use all of my armies in a GW store eventually. But I have no shortage of the stores near by, there are three standard stores and the battle bunker in my area so I am certain that at least one would be fine with it. As far a home games go no one I know will have a problem.
If this thread can accurately show what at least some gamers think than it looks more like the army would be fine in some places.
yep thats perfectly fine. hope we can see some soon, the anticipation kills.
If things go according to plan demomonk will have the camo scheme posted tomorrow that I wanna work with and how it'll look on the models, while this weekend starting images of the 251/Rhino prototype should be up.
I thought you were being sarcastic but couldn't tell.
BrotherStynier wrote:If things go according to plan demomonk will have the camo scheme posted tomorrow that I wanna work with and how it'll look on the models, while this weekend starting images of the 251/Rhino prototype should be up.
I thought you were being sarcastic but couldn't tell.
I wont be sarcastic no , it was my intention to give you a clear , honest reply but i guess im flawed after all
and the frustration from replying to those other ( wont name the 2 ) that might have led you to think otherwise.
i could have ended all the mess of debate from earlier by posting 1 picture . but doing so i would probably
be banned from the forum.
Best way to phrase this, I dunno. But, here's a shot:
If I were to do this army, I would avoid "Nazi" icons. Swastikas being top there. Now, using German military markings would be a different story. I would use some certainly, if not all, that were appropriate. As I have been reminded a couple of times in my life, once on this very board in a thread, WWII German =/= Nazi. Nazi was a political party. The German military was the German military.
All that being said, I will now swing back into reality. I would SO not do this army. No way. I personally do not feel a strong enough pull toward WWII German Anything to risk offending someone with my work. Period. I could see myself using some tank designs in some conversions as inspiration because a StuG is cool looking and so was Maus. And the Ho-114. And the Me-292 (?). I find some of their engineering to be pleasing to look at. However, no offense to Germany, the German people or anyone else intended; I am just not going to throw that much time and money at putting together a model army to mimic the Wehrmacht.
Everyone draws their lines somewhere. Others can agree, disagree, or abstain from opinion. This is where I draw my lines on this topic.
This should not be about the best way to tastefully model Nazis, it should really address what the original posters finds so admirable about them he wants to spend hours recreating them.
I'll just leave one example you guys be able to relate to.
If i make a bunch of deff kopta army piloted by tallarns , with flying base = WTC towers , just tell me if i can enter that into a tournament
without getting booted out ( saving all the used excuse everyone gave so far ) you think people will listen?
and dont you DARE tell me its different.
Actually, that would probably equal something along the lines of creating a piece where he's got his inquisitor in full SS regalia, wielding a whip and driving a bunch of starved figures in shabby clothing in front of him, filing into a crematorium. That's not what the OP is suggestng at all. Read the thread. He/she's suggesting to use similar uniforms and theme with absolutely no actual Nazi symbology.
To be honest, the excessive imagery seems superfluous. We could also all shout boo at someone making an Israeli themed army, pictured as shooting two-year olds in the back. Same gak. Very offensive to a lot of people. However, the same Israeli themed army, firing upon vicious chaos spawn is an entirely different thing. (Trying to tie this to current events)
Demonizing a culture like this makes it more fearsome. We can all agree that some parts of earth's history are absolutely disgusting. However, hating anyone who sees past the demonized outer shell and finds something useful in the lessons is just silly. (In this case the cool look)
Now, enough derailing. I'm wondering: How are you going to make the rather distinctive helmets? Pure GS or do you have some cool plan for those? Also, do you plan on modding weapons and such as well? Please get us some pictures, even if it's just WIP. I'd love to see how you're approaching this. Also, that way you can further justify having this thread in this part of the forum. ^^
For the helmets I am thinking that I could probably incorporate Tamyia or Dragon 1/48th Scale Helmets in with out too much trouble, I have enough of those laying around from unbuilt models that I could easily experiment combining with a Kasrkin Squad I have laying around and see how that turns out. If that doesn't work I could try using green stuff which I admit I don't have any experience with a will rely on guidance from my friend, failing that there's always modded Cadian heads.
For the weapons if I choose to try and mod them to reflect German weapons I think that a filed down and modded Bolter could possibly work for Stg 44s, and even MP-40s. Meltaguns I might substitute for Panzer Faust 60s, which where close range anti-tank missile launchers. I have no idea what to model the Plasma guns after, and will probably leave them the same.
I want to shy away from using the DKoK models, yes they may have the German feel I am looking for but I don't know what combining their Great Coats with the Late Pattern Oak would look like. I do have a DKoK Grenadier Squad that I could experiment on though.
Pics of the real life equipment/camo I want to copy.
StG44
Sdk. Kfz. 251, the rhino conversion won't look exactly like this but close enough would be enough of a victory.
Dot 44, possibly for the pants of some of the models
Autumn Pattern Oakleaf, for Tunics or Armored Plates
First, BrotherStynier, if you're surprised at the overall reaction to the idea you've identified yourself as being divergent from the mainstream opinion. This is in and of itself not a bad thing... It;s just if you're divergent in a good way or a bad way.
My main point, though, is that modifying the weapons an vehicles seems like it's not warranted. This force may dress like 38,000 year old Germans, but they're not... They're Stormtroopers, and get the appropriate local variants. I think I'd want to see some fluff as to why they are using recreations of ancient vehicles (crappy by their standards) instead of 'modern' and Adeptus Mechanicus approved designs.
The DKoK (I think: I may be thinking of another regiment) justify some different vehicle designs by the harsh terrain that mandates all vehicles be sealed. The Vostroyans seem to have some extremely baroque vehicles, presumably tied to their background as well... Yours, at present jsut has some weird historical recreator thing going.
I'd place myself divergent in a good way, honestly I didn't think people who can except the fact that the Imperium has Armies based off of the Soviet Union, Crusaders, and the like, to be so opposed to a WWII German theme.
You have a good point about the vehicles, them being modeled off of 38,000 year old half-tracks is not warranted and I could just go along with the standard Rhinos, and I most likely will end up doing so. Still though I want to make a prototype 251 because I want to see if a Rhino can be turned into one, even though I'd have an easier time with an Ork Truck. I might just leave it at modifying the look of the Rhino with out making it a half-track, while still retaining the German look.
Though I think for the Stormtrooper Hellguns an attempt should be made to make them appear like the StG44, it would be their local variant.
I love armies with what I call 'Signature conversions', thoguh, so don't take my comments as a negative. it just needs to be explained in fluff as opposed to "because I wanted it to look liek something else."
The Mordians and Praetorians at least kind of 'work' because they're wearing archaic uniforms but wielding modern weapons. The uniforms are funny, but then again most armies have somewhat bizarre touches, at least on dress uniforms. All the weird fringe bits and such...
Your guys presumably are housed on a crappy world... Not that the Imperium seems to have a shortage of these. It's preumably a high-tech world if they're making Hellguns in quantity with a radically different design. Maybe it's got a lot of flat surfaces where a halftrack can get better sustained speeds than a dedicated tank?
pavonis wrote:Personally, I don't think it is a good idea to go into that grey area. But if you really feel that strongly, go for it, just understand that tournament organizers may ask you not to play. I've never played at a GT, but I hear they are more strict about these types of things. And understand you may offend people and some people may choose not to play you in friendly games. I do agree, however, that their uniforms are really sharp.
GW stores(at least in Britain or at the very least the ones I've been to) are required to ask anyone playing a historically "accurate" army(or close enough that people can't tell the difference) not to play their army in the store or be banned. Take of that for GW's stance on the subject what you will.
Edit: And I will note, that they made specific mention of not just German armies, but British and American armies as well.
@Luna I am Jewish...I have direct ties to the travesties. The problem is that I know exactly what the difference between Hitler and Stalin is. The only difference is that Hitler didn't think rationally while Stalin, even though hot headed, was a very rational when compared to Hitler. You think Russia was any better than the Nazi party? I say Nazi party because Nazi doesn't equate German and that is a sensitive subject as my last name is Litz and we are actually of German decent. Yes, I know, German Jew. I am a walking paradox. To get back to the point, Stalin, and Russia before him were leading raids with the ultimate goal of murder on Jewish communities inside the Russian borders. My point is that no one is innocent and everyone has done horrific things. ALL countries are formed by bloodshed, internal or external. Genocide is nothing new. If I made an army based on American military structures and you were American Indian you should be appalled.
All history has objective evidence that we all interpret subjectively.
If it pisses someone off then they don't have to play against you. Anyone that is so pissed off at something of that nature should probably seek out anger management courses.
Orkeosaurus wrote:
Kej wrote:So....my Red Army Commisar led Conscript themed army is ok...even though their politics were the one in the same that led the world into a stand still where people were afraid to breathe due to the prospect of a nuclear weapon being dropped on their home town? Not to mention, more people lost their lives during the Cold War than all other wars combined if you count the brutal dictators that the US and Soviets backed to keep the expansion of the others political ideas at a halt.
No no no, you don't understand.
Hitler was evil in a way that no one else ever has been, or ever will be.
I mean, he killed - well, less people than Stalin - but he was racist too.
Well, actually Stalin was also racist, killing ethnic Poles, Koreans, and eventually hating Jews as well.
I'll just leave one example you guys be able to relate to.
If i make a bunch of deff kopta army piloted by tallarns , with flying base = WTC towers , just tell me if i can enter that into a tournament
without getting booted out ( saving all the used excuse everyone gave so far ) you think people will listen?
and dont you DARE tell me its different.
Well, actually....its VERY different. You're not really referring to a generic army / combatants who follow an ideal or political view point, your "Deff Kopta's" would be parodying a specific situation. The only way the OP would fall into the same catagory as your example is if he did a specific scene with his army marching round what could be identified as a concentration camp......
Well, actually....its VERY different. You're not really referring to a generic army / combatants who follow an ideal or political view point, your "Deff Kopta's" would be parodying a specific situation. The only way the OP would fall into the same catagory as your example is if he did a specific scene with his army marching round what could be identified as a concentration camp......
Actually I think the people that crashed into the towers followed a pretty strict religious ideal based on Islamic fundamentalism. The rest of the army might not follow the same pattern but deffkoptas definitely represent that pattern.
Either way, I wouldn't care if you brought that in to play with. I would just make fun of your mobile battlefield buildings . I realize I am harder to offend than a lot of people but some people are just too sensitive.
@OP
I say do it and do it proper. I understand not placing swastikas all over your models out of a level of respect. Maybe even change the color of the band. Make it a black band with an army insignia on it. Either way it will be just fine.
Borrow from history and make the army your own. You are the one who has to live with it every time you pull it out of its case.
Just to clear a few things up, Stalin persecuted the Jewish faith, not the ethnic group. And jews were not persecuted for practising their religion any more than christians were. The church as a whole was suppressed in soviet russia. As for the russians leading raids to kill jews, you're going to have to find me a source for that. I highly doubt you'll find one.
After the 1917 revolution, both the provisional government, and the bolsheviks after it made great strides in integrating the jewish people. There was massive anti-semitism in russia, and revolution forced it underground. Jews were given full rights for the first time in russian history. Trotsky was a jew. The whole leninist-marxist tradition is informed by jewish scholarship. That's why the white army, the reactionary, foreign (including british) funded and supported force trying to overthrow the revolutionary regime were openly so anti-semitical. Their slogan was "strike at the jews and save russia".
The bolsheviks and the red army led the fight against anti-semitism. Jews, like a lot of us, have the 1917 revolution to thank for a great many things. The bolsheviks did crack down on the jewish faith, and jewish nationalism, which was seen as a threat to the revolution, and rightly so. It was.
wiggles wrote:Just to clear a few things up, Stalin persecuted the Jewish faith, not the ethnic group.
There was hardly a difference in practice. The two were intertwined far too closely to be separated easily; especially with someone as distrustful as Stalin.
After the 1917 revolution, both the provisional government, and the bolsheviks after it made great strides in integrating the jewish people. There was massive anti-semitism in russia, and revolution forced it underground. Jews were given full rights for the first time in russian history.
Yes, but Stalin wasn't in power then.
When he did come into power, he slowly became more and more distrustful of the Jews.
The whole leninist-marxist tradition is informed by jewish scholarship. That's why the white army, the reactionary, foreign (including british) funded and supported force trying to overthrow the revolutionary regime were openly so anti-semitical. Their slogan was "strike at the jews and save russia".
Lenin =/= Stalin
The bolsheviks and the red army led the fight against anti-semitism. Jews, like a lot of us, have the 1917 revolution to thank for a great many things. The bolsheviks did crack down on the jewish faith, and jewish nationalism, which was seen as a threat to the revolution, and rightly so. It was.
Surely you don't believe Stalins attacks against "Zionism" were that benign?
Every neo-nazi out there claims "Zionism" to be their real enemy.
He also used "rootless cosmopolitan" as a euphemism. That doesn't mean it was aimed at anything less than the Jews.
wiggles wrote:Just to clear a few things up, Stalin persecuted the Jewish faith, not the ethnic group.
There was hardly a difference in practice. The two were intertwined far too closely to be separated easily; especially with someone as distrustful as Stalin.
After the 1917 revolution, both the provisional government, and the bolsheviks after it made great strides in integrating the jewish people. There was massive anti-semitism in russia, and revolution forced it underground. Jews were given full rights for the first time in russian history.
Yes, but Stalin wasn't in power then.
When he did come into power, he slowly became more and more distrustful of the Jews.
The whole leninist-marxist tradition is informed by jewish scholarship. That's why the white army, the reactionary, foreign (including british) funded and supported force trying to overthrow the revolutionary regime were openly so anti-semitical. Their slogan was "strike at the jews and save russia".
Lenin =/= Stalin
The bolsheviks and the red army led the fight against anti-semitism. Jews, like a lot of us, have the 1917 revolution to thank for a great many things. The bolsheviks did crack down on the jewish faith, and jewish nationalism, which was seen as a threat to the revolution, and rightly so. It was.
Surely you don't believe Stalins attacks against "Zionism" were that benign?
Every neo-nazi out there claims "Zionism" to be their real enemy.
He also used "rootless cosmopolitan" as a euphemism. That doesn't mean it was aimed at anything less than the Jews.
I was referring to an earlier posters incorrect claim that jews had been persecuted by the bolsheviks before stalin. I just wanted to point out that the jewish people were an integral part of the revolution, and most welcomed it. That there were divisions among jewish people, and that jewish nationalists were in conflict with the new workers state is inevitable, just as other nationalist groups, and religious organisations were.
After Stalin is a different matter. After stalin had trotsky declared a fascist, there were lots of purges, and among the leadership of the bolshevik party, and the russian intelligensia lot's of jews died, but so did lot's of non-jews. The party line was still officially in opposition to anti-semitism. It's certainly arguable that stalin was an anti-semite, and I certainly wouldn't defend him, but to compare this situation to the eradication of 6 million jewish citizens is absurd. We're talking about jewish writers and party members, along with a lot of other people mysteriously disappearing. We're not talking about open genocide, trains full of women and children going to gas chambers, that sort of thing. It's certainly possible that Stalin was an anti-semite, and that this informed his opposition to "zionism". Either way, there is nothing benign about the purges, and I would never say that there was.
You certainly don't need to tell me that lenin=/=stalin. I hope you don't think I was making some kind of defence of stalinism.
wiggles wrote:I was referring to an earlier posters incorrect claim that jews had been persecuted by the bolsheviks before stalin. I just wanted to point out that the jewish people were an integral part of the revolution, and most welcomed it. That there were divisions among jewish people, and that jewish nationalists were in conflict with the new workers state is inevitable, just as other nationalist groups, and religious organisations were.
Ah. Makes sense then.
After Stalin is a different matter. After stalin had trotsky declared a fascist, there were lots of purges, and among the leadership of the bolshevik party, and the russian intelligensia lot's of jews died, but so did lot's of non-jews. The party line was still officially in opposition to anti-semitism. It's certainly arguable that stalin was an anti-semite, and I certainly wouldn't defend him, but to compare this situation to the eradication of 6 million jewish citizens is absurd. We're talking about jewish writers and party members, along with a lot of other people mysteriously disappearing. We're not talking about open genocide, trains full of women and children going to gas chambers, that sort of thing. It's certainly possible that Stalin was an anti-semite, and that this informed his opposition to "zionism". Either way, there is nothing benign about the purges, and I would never say that there was.
Well, I agree that Stalin didn't have nearly the same amount of hatred for the Jews as Hitler. The Jews were another group on Stalin's long list of groups he considered enemies or threats (at least later in his reign); they were the front and center threat to civilization with Hitler.
You certainly don't need to tell me that lenin=/=stalin. I hope you don't think I was making some kind of defence of stalinism.
Well, I was a little confused as to what you meant by your post, but I'm happy to hear you're not a supporter Stalin's policies.
Balance wrote:I'm going to take this in a different direction:
First, BrotherStynier, if you're surprised at the overall reaction to the idea you've identified yourself as being divergent from the mainstream opinion. This is in and of itself not a bad thing... It;s just if you're divergent in a good way or a bad way.
My main point, though, is that modifying the weapons an vehicles seems like it's not warranted. This force may dress like 38,000 year old Germans, but they're not... They're Stormtroopers, and get the appropriate local variants. I think I'd want to see some fluff as to why they are using recreations of ancient vehicles (crappy by their standards) instead of 'modern' and Adeptus Mechanicus approved designs.
The DKoK (I think: I may be thinking of another regiment) justify some different vehicle designs by the harsh terrain that mandates all vehicles be sealed. The Vostroyans seem to have some extremely baroque vehicles, presumably tied to their background as well... Yours, at present jsut has some weird historical recreator thing going.
West wind productions has a whole line of separate heads for WW2 minis, you might want to check those out.
Wow, 5 pages of nothing. I can't believe the OP has gotten 5 pages of ranting. Some of the best cut uniforms of any country I've ever seen was the Nazi regime. Seems logical to me to use thier color schemes and designs to create a storm trooper army. Obviously its inappropriate to show Nazi Iconography. Its also obvious that ice tends to be cold and fire tends to be hot. Does the idea demand 5 pages of the obvious?
I've just read through 5 pages and the only pics I've seen is what the poster would like his =][= army to look LIKE and PIE. The OP said in his first post "=][= instead of swastikas", and yet everyone that could be offended jumped on the Anti-Nazi bandwagon and debating WWII.
I personally would like to see some Modelling & Painting in this post.
Nazis, Commnists, Democrats, Republicans, etc...Who cares? We all play with little plastic and metal army men/women/whatevers. Let us lighten up and and eat pie in this dark future.
Look people we have a dying Eldar race, Necrons awakening by the minute, more Nids than we can shake a grot at, Tau-munism, the Imperium falling, Chaos self destructing, dogs and cats linving together, MASS HYSTERIA!!!1!
BrotherStynier wrote:Well excuse me for thinking I could come to a web site for hobbyists of the game and post an idea i had for an Army and post it hoping to get figure out what people would think of the idea and hopefully get some suggestions or something.
Look, you come over here with something that you should have known would be a controversial topic.
The idea that everybody is going to share the same vision as you is kind of silly - you didn't expect there would be detractors?
And besides not all ideas are good ones.
In closing, my suggestion to you is that you abandon the idea.
Assuming that you aren't a closet Nazi, then you don't have the ability to clearly articulate that fact to others.
So this will always cause trouble for you.
Now, perhaps, if you were better at communicating things, then this might go over a little better.
wouldnt it be better to just let the thread die or till OP post some pics and brings it back on topic? I know the current discussion is semi OT but why bump it back up with another pointless post?
BrotherStynier wrote:Well excuse me for thinking I could come to a web site for hobbyists of the game and post an idea i had for an Army and post it hoping to get figure out what people would think of the idea and hopefully get some suggestions or something.
Look, you come over here with something that you should have known would be a controversial topic.
The idea that everybody is going to share the same vision as you is kind of silly - you didn't expect there would be detractors?
And besides not all ideas are good ones.
In closing, my suggestion to you is that you abandon the idea.
Assuming that you aren't a closet Nazi, then you don't have the ability to clearly articulate that fact to others.
So this will always cause trouble for you.
Now, perhaps, if you were better at communicating things, then this might go over a little better.
But I doubt it.
Not once did I say I thought everyone would think like me, I don't see that mentioned anywhere I wanted to see people's opinions on the matter and I have.
The opinions have been noted, and I have decided to go with the people that think it would be cool to see. When I get the army started if it offends you and the others don't click on the page. As for people in a GW I will take a couple of the models over and show them if they don't think its appropriate fine I'll use the army for home games, which is where I primarily play anyway.
Now I will eave you to think that I am a Nazi, as its your right to think of people as you will, though I fail to see how wanting to use uniforms of the SS makes me a Nazi or a closet one at that.
In closing, I suggest that we just let this topic slip away and die until I post pictures of the models, which as I have said should start this weekend. Or this can just be locked and when I have pictures ready I can post a new topic.
i think its a good idea if you do it right. there's no shame in making a nazi army, even with swastika's. its a touchy subject because nazi's aren't in 40k so you'd better have a good explanation for it.
the biggest problem i can see coming from this is that you support nazi's because you took the time an effort to make an entire nazi themed army. guessing by the post your white, live in a suberb or town, and since you can afford 40k don't have a hard life.
the look would be great, but the swastika's would kill it. if you put the effort into this it could turn out amazing; or just be like everyone else and sculpt boobs on them and call it a day.
You know BrotherStynier, I'l be very interested to see pics of this. And no, I won't be praising or decrying the Reich when I see them. Just the modeling. And that was one thing I DID notice, was that you DIDN'T ask for anyone's opinion in your OP, in fact you didn't ask a darn thing. It was more of an announcement. Which is fine, don't get me wrong. It doesn't really steer the discussion at all however, and invites those who wish to participate in the thread to say whatever is on their mind about the OP, rather than focusing on any one aspect. Prehaps a more focused post in the furture, if this is not what you were searching for, with respect.
So first i need to admit that i didnt read all the 5 pages on this thread so if this has been said already then sorry but heres my 2cents.
I agree its your army and do what ever you feel like doing.
I understand the whole nazi ss swashtica is a bit touchy (trust me while living in germany a friend and I threw rocks out his apartment window at a nazi rally parade ). But as long as doing your army this style is not meant to offend anyone (i hope) And as long as you dont bring objective markers like dead bodies with stars pinned to their jackets or someone getting thrown into a furance. That would be fine in my book.
Shunning someone for making metal and plastic TOY models that look like nazis is insane. Arent we all grown ups here? Didnt legoburner say the aveage age on dakka is like 24-26? It doesnt sound like he wants to base his army off the soldiers stationed at auschwitz or dachau who comitted the horrible crimes against humanity. Hell if you play flames of war are you gonna tell the kid who brings in germans "Uhhh no sorry you cant play here germans were bad and someone may get offended"
I guess it all boils down to its just a game and wether you paint your army like nazis or towel heads or even the KKK(all my gaurdsmen just came from a halloween party and they were all ghosts) it really shouldnt matter. Its just a game. Who are we to judge someones elses choices on how they paint or model their army.
Ill get off my pedastool now and you know what.... paint your army full of swashticas put the SS logo on every piece you can and F*** what everyone else thinks.
If now one will play your army cause its offensive then come on down to utah and ill be more than happy to play your historicly based 40k army
Ok so if you model all your stormtroopers with their dicks hanging out then your right that would be in the area of trying to offend someone and the its just a game arguement wouldnt work
grizgrin wrote:You know BrotherStynier, I'l be very interested to see pics of this. And no, I won't be praising or decrying the Reich when I see them. Just the modeling. And that was one thing I DID notice, was that you DIDN'T ask for anyone's opinion in your OP, in fact you didn't ask a darn thing. It was more of an announcement. Which is fine, don't get me wrong. It doesn't really steer the discussion at all however, and invites those who wish to participate in the thread to say whatever is on their mind about the OP, rather than focusing on any one aspect. Prehaps a more focused post in the furture, if this is not what you were searching for, with respect.
You're right I didn't actually ask for opinions even though that was my original intent, sometimes the fingers work slower than the brain. In the future I will make sure I actually say what it is I wish to say, rather than what ever is closest.
Now, I do hope to be able to get pictures of the project up on Sunday, I'm going to get the paints I need and then work on the uniforms after practicing on some Dragon SS models from Budapest in 1945. I will use the squad of DKoK for the initial squad I have an idea on how camo would work on them, the plan is to paint their great coats like they are reversible. Autumn Oak on the outside with a dark grey or black on the inside or reversed on some. Any way this is just the plan and could change back to getting and working on the Rhino.
grizgrin wrote:You know BrotherStynier, I'l be very interested to see pics of this. And no, I won't be praising or decrying the Reich when I see them. Just the modeling. And that was one thing I DID notice, was that you DIDN'T ask for anyone's opinion in your OP, in fact you didn't ask a darn thing. It was more of an announcement. Which is fine, don't get me wrong. It doesn't really steer the discussion at all however, and invites those who wish to participate in the thread to say whatever is on their mind about the OP, rather than focusing on any one aspect. Prehaps a more focused post in the furture, if this is not what you were searching for, with respect.
You're right I didn't actually ask for opinions even though that was my original intent, sometimes the fingers work slower than the brain. In the future I will make sure I actually say what it is I wish to say, rather than what ever is closest.
Now, I do hope to be able to get pictures of the project up on Sunday, I'm going to get the paints I need and then work on the uniforms after practicing on some Dragon SS models from Budapest in 1945. I will use the squad of DKoK for the initial squad I have an idea on how camo would work on them, the plan is to paint their great coats like they are reversible. Autumn Oak on the outside with a dark grey or black on the inside or reversed on some. Any way this is just the plan and could change back to getting and working on the Rhino.
\
it'll be good to see them, after seeing the DKoK, and steel legion mini's these shoulld look good.
wash-away wrote:what about an entirely nude army? if a nudist wants to play 40k its only right.
of course a nazi army might promote the idea that the holocaust happened, and god knows thats not true...
Im sorry but i seemed to have missed the part where i said the holocaust didnt happen. I know the holocaust happened I walked through some of the camps.
You wanna do an entirely nude army? Be my guest my point i was trying to make was that this is just a hobby and everyone has a choice on what they want to do.
But calling someone a closet nazi or saying that a nazi themed army might promote the idea the holocaust didnt happen makes no sense at all.
wash-away wrote:what about an entirely nude army? if a nudist wants to play 40k its only right.
of course a nazi army might promote the idea that the holocaust happened, and god knows thats not true...
Im sorry but i seemed to have missed the part where i said the holocaust didnt happen. I know the holocaust happened I walked through some of the camps.
You wanna do an entirely nude army? Be my guest my point i was trying to make was that this is just a hobby and everyone has a choice on what they want to do.
But calling someone a closet nazi or saying that a nazi themed army might promote the idea the holocaust didnt happen makes no sense at all.
Are you just arguing to argue?
no i'm saying there will alway's be a counterpoint.
would you be comfterble explaining why your army has swastika's to someone thats black or jewish? bigotry is bigotry.
this is why i left dakka, last time it was doctor thunder sculpting boobs on whatever army he was playing at the time. though this is much more justified if done tastfully.
this is why i left dakka, last time it was doctor thunder sculpting boobs on whatever army he was playing at the time. though this is much more justified if done tastfully.
was it slaneesh army? GW sculpts boobs from time to time :"o
this is why i left dakka, last time it was doctor thunder sculpting boobs on whatever army he was playing at the time. though this is much more justified if done tastfully.
was it slaneesh army? GW sculpts boobs from time to time :"o
no it was a space marine army, they featured it on somethingawful.com a while ago.
I think as long as you dot put a red arm band you'll be fine Ohh and no swastikas either 
really, America should stop singling out and shunning anything semi controversial while not giving a 
and the Aquila" the camouflage will be oak fall and there will be characters in trench coats If this army even gets built...
.
). But as long as doing your army this style is not meant to offend anyone (i hope) And as long as you dont bring objective markers like dead bodies with stars pinned to their jackets or someone getting thrown into a furance. That would be fine in my book.