So after reading mechanicum, which is a fantastic book, I have come to the conclusion the emperor is in fact an old one. What do i base this on well. If you havent read the book there is a bit of a spoiler here (but not a huge one). But in mechanicum it is shown that the emperor of Humanity fought and wounded the Dragon C'tan in the time of the crusades, (think I have my dating right there, might be out by a few hundread years or so). It was definatly the first millenium. The C'tan had arrived on earth, wounded from a great battle and had insisted the town it was near give it a virgin female each day to consume, the last one left was the kings daughter, she was being taken to the dragon when a great knight (the emperor) came across them, learnt the story of the dragon, fought it, wounded it, realised it couldnt be killed and so trapped it (on mars). where he knew it would foister the machine god myth which he could us to his advantage when he arrived on mars and was seen as being the machine god incarnate by the mechanicum. Now this is
A a long long long life, even for a genetically engineered human.
and B shows an ability to see into the future, so he is def not human. We also know he has tremendous psychic abilities, he also seems to have other strange powers, for instance he helas a palladin knights damaged leg at the very start of mechanicum, and just generally all who see him appear to be overwhelmed and just love him instantly when they see him.

Now on top of this, he genetically created the primarchs, unified a country then a galaxy and is the galaxies biggest athiest. All of this points to him being an old one, why. Well the old ones didnt believe in gods, they new how the universe was created, how it worked and trustyed in science and technology, much like the emperor. The old ones created the races (eldar, ork, human) to help fight the C'tan, the by product was the chaos powers. The emperor above the ret of humanity seems to understand the nature of chaos already oin the horus books, long before the other primarchs do even. The eldar and the orks had old ones watching over them (mork and Gork where apparantly old ones, and the eldar "gods" where also old ones). Now the emperor may have seen that subtle manipulation of a species leads to failure (the eldar created slanesh, the orks, well, they became what they are now). It is possible that the emperor saw the tide was turning against them in the war against the necrons, and so decided to take a more active hand in the development of the only species left with a chance to fight the C'tan, humanity. When he realised how close humanity was getting to the warp he banned "Witch craft" (psykers) having learnt from the mistakes with the eldar. The great crusade was an atttempt to prepare Humanity for the coming war with the necrons. But again Chaos messed with his plans, and now he is in stasis unable to warn his children about the impending disaster.

That is actually one of the more interesting 40k ideas I've run into.

It makes sense. I mean, instead of being benevolent for the sake of being benevolent, The Emperor feels terrible for the failures of the Old Ones, and is simply seeking to save the last race he feels that he can.

I'll agree with this completely. In fact, since it makes so much sense, I think this is my new outlook on the Emperor.

You think too much kid.

On the real though, that's a of a good theory. Congrats, you've made another convert. You don't happen to play word bearers, do you?


The only real issue I can think of is: How could Horus deceive him and then wound him?

Maybe...Horus is an Old One as well?

Hahah, that's reading entirely too far into it.

Perhaps The Emperor's misguided faith in humanity and trust in Horus allowed him to be wounded? It's an idea.

Mercurial wrote:You don't happen to play word bearers, do you?

I don't know about the OP, but I most certainly do.

Mercurial wrote:You think too much kid.

On the real though, that's a of a good theory. Congrats, you've made another convert. You don't happen to play word bearers, do you?


The only real issue I can think of is: How could Horus deceive him and then wound him?

first of all at 30 think I am not a kid . but yes I do think to much, (although this idea came in a flash of inspiration while I was reading mechanicum).

On the horus point, who says the old ones where infallible, They didnt see the outome of producing warp sensitive species like trhe eldar, didnt see the coming of chaos, which ultimatly became there downfall. he emperor didnt see the removal of the primarchs, at creation either, so it seems that chaos can cloud his sight. In the case of Horus he didnt see it coming because he couldnt.

Or on the other hand, the enemy of the Old ones was the Necrons, not Chaos. And in fact, while chaos brought about the downfall of the old ones, they also as a by product helped weaken the C'tan, Maybe the emperor realises that Chaos is a necessary by product of having species such as humanity, it cant be conqured, or destroyed, it can only be controlled to n extenet. Chaos needs humanity as much as humanity needs chaos (with out chaos you stagnate, ideas stop flowing e.t.c). Chaos needs humanity because it needs people to give it the psychic power of there belief.

Now If the remaing old ones have decided that chaos is necessary, then it may have been some greater plan of the emperors for horus to turn. If chaos helped defeat the C'tan before, maybe they are necessarry now, and so the traitor legions where a necessarry evil for the greater good. (somthing the imperium state to defend for instance sacrificing 1000 souls to keep the beacon going).

oh and as an aside, I dont play 40K, I just read the background, cant get into the system (am a fantasy player).

Aaaand he's at it again.

Great point.

Though I will agree, you think entirely too much.

have been at it again, thinking that is, posted this topic on the black library forum under spoilers, just to see if it gets a reaction, if it gets removed we know I am onto somthing and have given the whole game away . feel free to go and agree with e therre . The benifit of a nights sleep got me thinking a biit clearer about this,

The emperor tried to expunge religion, what does chaos need to exist, belief, namly religious factions worshipping these powers as a god, with no religion, no worship, chaos powers weak and cant affect the material world.

Seeing as how the creation of the old ones failed the first time round, of course he would want to improve on there creation, hence the primarchs and astartes, now because he doesnt want to seem inhuman to terrans he does it gradually, genetically enhancing humans first in the vestiges of genetic experiments, when really he could have made the primarchs from scratch, but the end result is the same, by the time humanity is ready to go bak out, he has a super soldir behind him for when the necrons appear.

I could prob go on but my brain is starting to hurt.

You know I clicked on this topic thinking 'yeah right', but that was actually well reasoned & made a whole lot of sense...

My only question then being, can the Old Ones assume any form they choose? Im assuming thats got to be the case if The Emperor, Gork & Mork, & the Eldar Gods are Old Ones.

I wouldnt say I was a convert to this idea... but Im definitely taking it as a possibility until proved otherwise.

you have some very convincing ideas ginric99. just one question though, how can gork and mork be old ones if they are warp entities and cannot exist in the corpereal realm?

"There is a theory that the Ork Gods, Gork and Mork, were two of the last Old Ones. Gork being the Ork God of strength and Mork being more cunning than his opponent, this also leads to the idea that the Eldar Gods Kaela Mensha Khaine and the Laughing God are the same beings as Gork and Mork. Kaela Mensha Khaine is a god of strength as is Gork and the Laughing God was more of a trickster than Khaine, much like Mork. Being the Old Ones they would have created races such as the Eldar and Orks. These two figures are believed to be the last two Old Ones to have survived."

taken from wikipedia, this theory has been around for a while.

If you read the history of the old ones, it doesnt say they werent psychic, or couldnt use the warp, in fact they travelled through the warp (or the immatirium) with out the use of starships. this suggests they are not corporeal beings as we see them, but are somthing else, so yes they could take any form.

Where the problems came is that the numrous species they created to be attuned to the warp where not as high minded as the old ones, so there passions, needs, ambitions, all the dark thoughts they had twisted the at the time neutral immaterium into the warp as we know it now, The powers of chaos where born out of this desire, they did not this desire come about.

Now the idea that gork and mork can not exist in the corpral realm, where is that proven, I mean ok so the orks and other races believe they are gods who exist in another realm, but if that is how they wished to be seen of course the old ones would foister this belief.

Interesting theory – however, unless GW has changed history (which they have done from time to time) The Emperor is not an Old One. Pull up a chair, Let me put on my smoking jacket and we can sit around the fire…
(Abridged version)
Chaos Gods getting stronger, feeding on the souls of the departed human and other races as they die and their souls – or warp spark is set free to roam in the warp. Some magically (or psychically) gifted souls burn brighter in the Warp, some even have mastered the ability to move their spark from one deceased vessel (dead body) to a new one (reincarnation).

Unfortunately the power of the Chaos Gods was getting stronger and stronger. Making it difficult for the shamans, magi, seers etc of the Olde Worlde to float about freely in the warp and find a new suitable host.
Now in spite of the differences between the different factions (High Elves don’t care much for Dark Elves ya know) all the magi begin to determine that they will not be able to out run the Chaos Gods indefinitely. They also realize that said Chaos Gods will eventually overrun everything they know. Darkness falls, dogs and cats living together – basically the worst parts of the bible.

So they all get together and have a nice big Jim Jones moment. They all reincarnate into one being. This being lives 30-40k years as a man, learning everything he can, every aspect of humanity, its good, its capability for evil, every facet of humanity. And I think it was sometime soon after the Dark Age Of Technology. When Man was at his darkest time He stepped up, delivered his message of order and light and with all of humanity in disarray and darkness they welcomed him with open arms.

Then he did the Primarch thing, Chaos did the stealing of the Primarch things and my guess is you guys know the rest.

I thought the old fluff was that the Emperor was the summation of reincarnated souls of a number of shamans in Anatolia.

I do like the Old One theory though.

The problem with the shaman fluff is that it goes back to the realms of chaos books, which I think is automatically outdated by the creation of the necrons, and the resultant subtle changes this had on the history of the creation of chaos. I read the realms of chaos books when they cam out and had considered this.

I also would debate a couple of other points

1 if the emperor is a reincarnated man, then how did this man, manage to defeat a C'tan, in battle, I am sorry I dont care how injured that c'tan was, this is a being that devoured old ones, your tellig me it cant deal with a poxy human, no matter how advanced.
2. Once defeated said man takes C'tan to mars, anouther planet, with no space vessel or anything. Now only 2 species of the materium could travel through space like that, C'tan and, yes old ones.

Now you can come up with convoluted theories, arguments, conjecture, but surley it is better to look at this logically.

Ok so the only race we know of that could ipossibly injure a C'tan was either an old one or a chaos demon. A powerfull chaos demon.
We know th emperor is not a demon, if he is the galaxy is doomed (unless GW are going to bring back malal).
So the only possibility is he is an old one (and please dont say no he is a very very very powerfull human, beacuse you have no basis on that other then if he is human he must be powerfull to defeat a c'tan, that isnt evidence of his humanity).

When you add this to the other evidence I have listed, and take every piece of evidence, not seperatly, but in totallity, it becomes really hard to come up with any kind of opposite argument to the emperor being human. but feel free to try (I know many will). Yo may even convince me .

lol wut?

ginric99 wrote:The problem with the shaman fluff is that it goes back to the realms of chaos books, which I think is automatically outdated by the creation of the necrons, and the resultant subtle changes this had on the history of the creation of chaos. I read the realms of chaos books when they cam out and had considered this.

Fluff isn't "outdated" until something changes it. Until something says that the Emperor wasn't created through the shamanic souls he has been, officially.

1 if the emperor is a reincarnated man, then how did this man, manage to defeat a C'tan, in battle

Psyker.

2. Once defeated said man takes C'tan to mars, anouther planet, with no space vessel or anything. Now only 2 species of the materium could travel through space like that, C'tan and, yes old ones.

Psyker.

Ok so the only race we know of that could ipossibly injure a C'tan was either an old one or a chaos demon. A powerfull chaos demon.

Or a psyker.

and please dont say no he is a very very very powerfull human, beacuse you have no basis on that other then if he is human he must be powerfull to defeat a c'tan, that isnt evidence of his humanity).

Alpha level psykers can snap titans in half, and the Emperor was the most powerful psyker to ever live.

If the Emporer is an Old One, why would he hate the Orks and Eldar, and yet not be constantly trying to wipe all Necrons from the Galaxy?

If he is an Old One, he would hate the Necrons more than Chaos and since his race created Orks and Eldar, he would have some sort of attraction to them.

Plus, why is he the last Old One alive?

PS: Written while Drunk, in case of spelling or other issues, I will check on this later. Maybe.

Theres a couple of holes in your "theory" based on GW own fluff. First of all, going back some, the only reference to the Emp past is that a butt load of Shamans killed themselves in order to be reboarn as the Emp.....now, that means he's not a bio-product in the real sense of the term....like Space Marines! It also means he had a definate human origin.

Now, I appreciate that the book Lost and the Damned is no longer cannon as such, but its the only "history" of the Emp that GW has currently released, so as such its probably the most "reliable".

Your theory on the Old Ones being Atheists and relying on Tech over more esoteric practices is completely at odds with current GW fluff. Have you looked at the Necrons Codex?

In short, the Necrons were a race of relatively short lived beings, the got jealous of the seemingly endless lifetimes of the Old Ones and went to war....the war raged and the Old Ones were winning because of their knowledge of and use of the Warp, Webway etc...it was in fact the Necrons who relied heavily on Technology....not the other way round! It wasn't until the Necrons discovered the Ctan that they eventually became as they are, but preceeding that even't the war swung in favour of the Necrons with the aid of the Ctan....thats when the Old Ones created the "races" of Orks, Humans and Eldar...amoungst others I guess....

Last but by no means least is the point raised by Dreadwinter....if he is an Old One, why the Xenophobic attitude towards the other races?

ok my statement about them being an athiest race relying more on science and technology is wordred a bit wrong, I was not trying to get at the idea of them being a tecnocracy (I know the necrons where that) it was more highlighting the fact that they understood the true nature of the universe, and so didnt have to beilieve in gods. Especially when compared to the necrons, who worshipped the C'tan as such. On the other hand, the sheer genetic manipulation they showed in creating the new races could indicate a scientific knowledge and approach.

As for the xenophobic atitude. First of all orks, where created to be the foot soldirs of the war, and then exploded even faster then the old ones could have forseen.. Since the war with the necrons they have now almost taken a step backwards along the evolutionary chain. However if the Emperor old one decided to protect humanity then dealing with the ork infestation would not concern him.

If you read the heresy books, both horus and Fulgrim indicate that the emperor wondered at times about the approach they crusade was taking, and that he sometimes regretted his actions around certain civilisations and races. However it also suggests that Chaos had more of a hold in the galaxy then we realise, almost every civilisation we read about him expunging seems to have contained "witches", or worshipped some darker power. And the only contact we see a primarch having with the eldar is Fulgrims peacefull (well at first until the chaos sword corrupted it) meeting with Eldrad.
Also remember it was a period of expansion and conquest, and the old ones had failed. As one of the last survivng old ones the emperor may have considered the Eldar a lost cause (because of there corruption and fall) and the Orks a mistake (for the reasons above). Although I doubt he could have made peace with orks if he had wanted to.

And I cant believe the utter destruction of his species wouldnt have had an effect on his outlook on the other species of the galaxy.

During the great crusade the necrons where still in hibernation, and Chaos (which was what ultimatly brought the downfall of rthe old ones) was a strong force. If the emperor wanted to see the human empire expand and become big enougb that a war with the necrons would be winable he would have to deal with the immeddiate threat, Chaos.

Finally havent said he is the last old one alive, there are suggestions that gork and mork are actually old ones, in some form. And that 2 of the eldar gods (also old ones) are also still alive. If there are still old ones alive then I imagine they would be in hiding,

Finally havent said he is the last old one alive, there are suggestions that gork and mork are actually old ones, in some form. And that 2 of the eldar gods (also old ones) are also still alive. If there are still old ones alive then I imagine they would be in hiding

They're suggestions with no evidence at all in support of them, though.

You could just as easily say Gork and Mork are eldar, or Khaine and the Laughing God are enslavers, or etc etc.

Essentially, its a fantasy game.....so the Emp can be whoever or what-ever you want him to be.....there is no right or wrong, no correct argument or flawed argument.

GW has some amazingly large holes in their fluff, that one has to wonder if they as a company actually care.

The Emp serves as a focal point for one faction of the game, nothing more....and he's unlikely to play a more active role in the WH40K universe in the forseable future.

I guess if you really want the Emp to be an old one as part of a game plot, then go for it.....I get the impression from your posts (statement aimed at the OP) are more aimed at starting a new "movement".....either way good luck with that

Interesting theory but I doubt it, I don't think one of the Old Ones would be as closed minded as the ruler of the Imperium, I don't think he would allow the Inquisition to continue their atrocities (maybe the Daemon Hunters), I always saw the Old Ones as the only truly "good" entities in the 40K universe. Then again the Emperor is half-dead and wired to a chair so it would be difficult to determine his actual views of the universe.

Read some more fluff on the emperor. He had the technical know-how to build a webway gate, which is based on the technology of the old ones. He was also the only one powerful enough to keep it closed, whereas Malcador the Sigillite, the most powerful human psyker ever next to the Emperor and Magnus, died in a matter of hours from the strain while the Emperor went to go fight Horus. Hmmm...

ginric99 wrote:first of all at 30 think I am not a kid .

Haha, I'm in college, technically I'm the kid, call it a term of endearment if you like =P

Isn't it mentioned somewhere that Humans were not, in fact created by the old ones?

I dislike the shaman story, but I'm not sure I can go along with the old one theory either. IIRC the warp is the antithesis of the c'tan, thus the old ones created species more attuned to the warp in order to fight them. Now, if the old ones were already super-psychics like the emp. why would they need to create these new species?

I like your theory, the problem is that the old ones created humanity as a "control" group. This means the old ones had a hands-off policy in the progression of mankind.

They also created other races, such as the orks and the eldar, to hold a more direct offense against the c'tan.

I also strongly believe in a relationship between the eldar's bloody handed god and laughing god being gestalts to the ork's gork and mork, respectively.

The races that the old ones had a more direct hand in also figuratively achieved racial perfection to a certain extent. The eldar had there big hoo-ha and then skrewed it up. But the orks are possibly even more perfect than the eldar when you think about it.

I actually had the absolute exact same idea, when reading Xenology.

To my knowledge, the old "shaman" theory was retconned.

I think this is more than a coincidence, both Xenology and Mechanicum are official lore and point to this same thing.

For anyone wanting to check, it's towards the end of Xenology. The exodite stone tablet, with four tiers:

Tier 1: the Old Ones.

Tier 2: their creations

Tier 3: the Necrons.. and implicitly, the War in Heaven.

Tier 4: the forms the few surviving Old Ones were "imprisoned" in:

a) a laughing/crying harlequin Mask-the Laughing God/Mork.

b) a bloody crushed hand-Khaine/Gork.

c) the missing fragment, which is a sketchy representation of a human fetus.

Also, someone said that humans weren't created by the Old Ones? It's stated in 2 places in the Necron Codex: once by an Eldar Farseer, "the lesser creations of the Old Ones" and once by the Deceiver "couldn't imagine my surprise at seeing your kind and the Krork scattered all over the place."

I'm positive this is going to be official. It fits too damn much.

WOW. This thread has been dead since FEBUARY! Way to be a Thread Necro.

Just because a thread is "old" doesn't mean it doesn't still have relevance.

Sometimes, its better to resurrect an old thread then start a new one to say exactly the same thing.....

Delephont wrote:Just because a thread is "old" doesn't mean it doesn't still have relevance.

Sometimes, its better to resurrect an old thread then start a new one to say exactly the same thing.....

This. Thanks for the support

I was reading Xenology, and that paragraph kind of hit me. On top of the information from Mechanicum.. I was curious since I haven't stumbled upon this theory in the various Warhammer 40k lore haunts, did a google search, stumbled upon this.

It was old but not old enough-and what was the point in rebooting a new thread to basically say the same thing?

ginric99 wrote:So after reading mechanicum, which is a fantastic book, I have come to the conclusion the emperor is in fact an old one. What do i base this on well. If you havent read the book there is a bit of a spoiler here (but not a huge one). But in mechanicum it is shown that the emperor of Humanity fought and wounded the Dragon C'tan in the time of the crusades, (think I have my dating right there, might be out by a few hundread years or so). It was definatly the first millenium. The C'tan had arrived on earth, wounded from a great battle and had insisted the town it was near give it a virgin female each day to consume, the last one left was the kings daughter, she was being taken to the dragon when a great knight (the emperor) came across them, learnt the story of the dragon, fought it, wounded it, realised it couldnt be killed and so trapped it (on mars). where he knew it would foister the machine god myth which he could us to his advantage when he arrived on mars and was seen as being the machine god incarnate by the mechanicum. Now this is
A a long long long life, even for a genetically engineered human.
and B shows an ability to see into the future, so he is def not human. We also know he has tremendous psychic abilities, he also seems to have other strange powers, for instance he helas a palladin knights damaged leg at the very start of mechanicum, and just generally all who see him appear to be overwhelmed and just love him instantly when they see him.

Now on top of this, he genetically created the primarchs, unified a country then a galaxy and is the galaxies biggest athiest. All of this points to him being an old one, why. Well the old ones didnt believe in gods, they new how the universe was created, how it worked and trustyed in science and technology, much like the emperor. The old ones created the races (eldar, ork, human) to help fight the C'tan, the by product was the chaos powers. The emperor above the ret of humanity seems to understand the nature of chaos already oin the horus books, long before the other primarchs do even. The eldar and the orks had old ones watching over them (mork and Gork where apparantly old ones, and the eldar "gods" where also old ones). Now the emperor may have seen that subtle manipulation of a species leads to failure (the eldar created slanesh, the orks, well, they became what they are now). It is possible that the emperor saw the tide was turning against them in the war against the necrons, and so decided to take a more active hand in the development of the only species left with a chance to fight the C'tan, humanity. When he realised how close humanity was getting to the warp he banned "Witch craft" (psykers) having learnt from the mistakes with the eldar. The great crusade was an atttempt to prepare Humanity for the coming war with the necrons. But again Chaos messed with his plans, and now he is in stasis unable to warn his children about the impending disaster.

Good conept.But it's HERESY !!!The Emperor is not xeno scum.

Interesting concept, I like it better that the shaman idea that GW puts out.

I just read the bit in xenology you were talking about.

I think its pretty cool, nice catch..

Laughing god, avatar, Im guessing all the eldar gods are old ones.. like the one Nurgle captured..

Then it has the emperor, but that part is missing and its just conjecture which is cool, good fluff always has holes in it.

Also I disagree with the Ork gods being old ones, to me Gork and Mork are just like chaos gods but Orky..

First the Old ones didnt make humans, we are raw evolution, ence why eldar hate us so much we took over with out help from any old ones, secondly the orks I dont think had a culture at first cause they worked like a defence program on a computer and with out a controler whent out of control (thats my opinion), and anyone could build a webway once you get smart enough, and if he was one the C'tan would have finished it a long time ago, and Gork and Mork can't be old ones cause the Orks know that they where whiped out to the last.

Orkfantic wrote:First the Old ones didnt make humans, we are raw evolution, ence why eldar hate us so much we took over with out help from any old ones, secondly the orks I dont think had a culture at first cause they worked like a defence program on a computer and with out a controler whent out of control (thats my opinion), and anyone could build a webway once you get smart enough, and if he was one the C'tan would have finished it a long time ago, and Gork and Mork can't be old ones cause the Orks know that they where whiped out to the last.

Actually, in the Necron 4th ed, at one point an Eldar Farseer says "...the Old Ones' lesser creation like the Mon-Keigh". Also in the Necron 4th ed, the Deceiver says that "..can't imagine my surprise at seeing your kind and the Krork all over the place". And finally, Xenology hints strongly at a common source for all the humanoid races with their symmetry-Tau, Humans, Eldar, etc

Not to mention the Pariah gene that has been engineered by the C'tan.

Shaman wrote:I just read the bit in xenology you were talking about.

I think its pretty cool, nice catch..

Laughing god, avatar, Im guessing all the eldar gods are old ones.. like the one Nurgle captured..

Then it has the emperor, but that part is missing and its just conjecture which is cool, good fluff always has holes in it.

Thanks man, yeah, that's pretty much spot on what seemed to me.

I have always assumed the emperor was a C'tan. Using humanity for his own purposes. And that the real emperor was killed when they attacked sixty-three-nineteen. When Horus found out they killed the real emperor, and that the fake one was he C'tan. He turned to chaos. He then mortally wounded the C'tan and died himself in the process. Afterwards the put the C'tan emperor on his golden throne and feed him his steady diet of 1000 psykers a day. presumable to power the golden throne but in reality he gets his free dinner to get back to his full power

Since the people who know the emperor is fake turned to chaos and were branded heretics. Who listens to them? Even when they keep shouting "Death to the fake emperor!" Nobody cares since they are heretics and heretics are supposed to say such things. But nobody thinks they might be right.

Grtz
L.D.

You just blew my mind.

Would the Hive Mind be an old one? Quite new to the game and fluff just an idea i had correct me if i'm wrong.

I think Orkeosaurus pretty much put this to bed on page one. (But that Star Child crap is . . . just crap.)

Manchu wrote:I think Orkeosaurus pretty much put this to bed on page one. (But that Star Child crap is . . . just crap.)

Qft. The should seriously make some more Emprah fluff. They tried to close the Star Child stuff though, by saying it was a Tzeentch plot. Inquisitor Draco leaves a big ? over this though.

Speaking of which, those books are being reprinted as omnibus next year.

LONG LIVE THE EMPEROR THE IMPERIUM!!!
But still the chances of the emperor being a Xenos is very unlikely. Your theory is good i'm not trying to be racial towards 30 year olds but the lore is bad in many ways. GW wants you as the players to figure it out not for you to make a killer awesome force of bad ass warriors who know everything that needs to be know I've been at this hobby for a long time and I always see the problems with the horus hersey (my favorite lore) and the dark age of technology. Also the emperor was first created during the years 10,000 and was reborn many many times. not the year 30,000. it is stated by many people that he is the equvilantent of the chirstian God. so could that be the answer to this thread?

bryantsbears wrote:I thought the old fluff was that the Emperor was the summation of reincarnated souls of a number of shamans in Anatolia.

I do like the Old One theory though.

Yes indeed. Some people in this thread need to go read their early-90s Realm of Chaos fluff!!

As for the very first sentence of the whole thread...

Mechanicum? A good book? It was not even decent. I only read it for a sense of completeness. It is one of the worst two or three books I have ever actually managed to finish!

After a statement like that, nothing you say can be trusted.

Fifty wrote:Mechanicum? A good book? It was not even decent. I only read it for a sense of completeness. It is one of the worst two or three books I have ever actually managed to finish!

So utterly correct!

Seeing that you can recognize poor fluff, I'm surprised you would recommend that Shaman-Sensei-Star Child nonsense to anyone.

First time I read that! But I think it's possible...

I must admit, I can't see the whole Horus is an Old One being true. The simple fact is that Horus was created from the Emperor's body, so how could he be one of the Old Ones, as he wasn' even wround when the Emperor was gallivanting around unifying areas.

The whole point of religion is that it is something for people to go to to have something explained to them which they otherwise wouldn't be able to understand. That's why the Emperor was ridding the Galaxy of it, He believed that everything could be explained by science.

The point above also explains why the Emperor left Horus in charge after Ullanor, as he wanted to get back and further study the Warp, and how it affects humanity itself.

MC

Manchu wrote:Speaking of which, those books are being reprinted as omnibus next year.

It already has been. It wasn't that great :(

Fifty wrote:.

Mechanicum? A good book? It was not even decent. I only read it for a sense of completeness. It is one of the worst two or three books I have ever actually managed to finish!

Qft.

Manchu wrote:

Fifty wrote:Mechanicum? A good book? It was not even decent. I only read it for a sense of completeness. It is one of the worst two or three books I have ever actually managed to finish!

So utterly correct!

Seeing that you can recognize poor fluff, I'm surprised you would recommend that Shaman-Sensei-Star Child nonsense to anyone.

Word

I got 3/4 of the way though the first page. Have to say its interesting. going to read the rest later.

I wouldn't like it to be said that I recommend the Star Child fluff... as such... More that I kinda... accept it. And better that than Dalia "Annoying" whatever-her-surname-is and Zeth with her "AKashic reader".

I mean, McNeill's writing is generally pretty bad, but when it was at least decent stories and concepts earlier in the series, I could cope. Mechanicum was just toss on so many levels it made wax dribble from my nose, tears come from my ears and snot run out of my eyes...

Not likely he was an old one but there is enough evidence.

Emprah is the gestalt of all old Earth's remaining shamans' psychic awareness reborn into one concentrated human form.

Thus he was, is, and shall always be.

Personally I like the Star Child Theory, and the Shaman Birth. I dont know you do have alot of evidence but to each his own theories

Lint wrote:Isn't it mentioned somewhere that Humans were not, in fact created by the old ones?

I dislike the shaman story, but I'm not sure I can go along with the old one theory either. IIRC the warp is the antithesis of the c'tan, thus the old ones created species more attuned to the warp in order to fight them. Now, if the old ones were already super-psychics like the emp. why would they need to create these new species?

Humans were not created by the Old Ones. The last ditch effort of the old ones was the krork, a race of green skinned barbarians. It was too little too late for the Old ones though and we all know what happened after that.

Humans were in fact created by the Void Dragon, if you read Mechanicum. That is how the pariah gene shows up in human DNA and not in other races DNA.

Mechanicum was an excellent book, the characters were all really interesting and it explained a lot of secrets. Up there with Legion for my favorite horus heresy book. Maybe it didn't have enough f#$ing space marines for some of you though.

Did you realize this thread was 2 months old -before- or -after- you posted on a thread that was quite obviously inactive?

That was a fail on his part. YEAH FOR NOT READING! : D

you say that but i hadn't read it and it was quite an interesting conversation, i enjoyed it and feth the lot of ya :p
oh and i'd have to agree with the OP especially with all the rumours of the plot twist (and the given one dosn't ring true, the emp being a shrivelled old man, him being an old one seems a lot more well dramatic)

The Emperor is -not- an Old One. He was born in 8000 BC, LONG after the Old Ones went extinct, to mortal human parents. What made him immortal? The fact that he's not actually human, but made up of the combined conciousness of every Shaman on Earth, thanks to their mass-suicide ritual that concieved him.

Pretty sure there's nothing of value left that can be added to this thread at this point, what with the OP probably having forgotten it's existance and all.

I feel that the Old One theory has some merit. For one, if the void dragon had made humans, why not have them all be pariahs, rather than a smaller percentage of the population than even high level psykers? If I were the Void Dragon, I would consider it a failure and kill the little buggers before they had a significant number of psykers, and thus be a danger (albeit a relatively small one), to myself. It is much more likely that it just inserted the gene into a smaller segment of the population. That theory is dead as a chicken with its head cut off. It may run around for a while, but it is dead all the same in the end.

The Old Ones theory is more likely for humans, as it explains the prevalence of psykers in the human population.

Unless the Old Ones purposely did this, I would cite the tau as being the one naturally evolved race (from this galaxy) that has come to fruition (at least among major races, you could argue this for minor and irrelevant races) because they do not have psychic powers (unless ethereals are psyker-ish, which may or may not be true as I do not remember the fluff for them, although I remember something about pheromones being the source of their control).

GundamMerc wrote:
The Old Ones theory is more likely for humans, as it explains the prevalence of psykers in the human population.

But this isn't a thread about the general human population. It's about the Emperor. And he is not an old one. He was not created through reproductive procedure, cloning, vat-growth, or any other means. According to the Fluff, which explains the matter from a neutral (and thus, honest) point of view, the Emperor was created by a mass suicide ritual thousands of years before his birth. He was born to mortal parents, but he was not their child per-se. It would be more accurate to say he was warp-spawned, as he existed in the warp as a growing conciousness before he manifested in the physical realm.

The Old Ones theory is a possibility for the rest of the race, but the Emperor is technically -not- human.

metallifan wrote:

GundamMerc wrote:
The Old Ones theory is more likely for humans, as it explains the prevalence of psykers in the human population.

The Old Ones theory is a possibility for the rest of the race, but the Emperor is technically -not- human.

I like this theory better than my friends
"The emperor is a chaos god. or possibly malal"

Your friends have some odd theories. He can't be a Chaos god, because he'd have died from exposure to the physical realm just like the other gods. That rules out the Chaos god theory immediately.

Malal/Malice has been axed I believe, as GW has ommited him from all recent fluff. Plus, he's a minor god, so this theory would fail for the same reason as the first.

I will post definite proof that the Emperor was not an old one but first some general debating:

So after reading mechanicum, which is a fantastic book, I have come to the conclusion the emperor is in fact an old one. What do i base this on well. If you havent read the book there is a bit of a spoiler here (but not a huge one). But in mechanicum it is shown that the emperor of Humanity fought and wounded the Dragon C'tan in the time of the crusades, (think I have my dating right there, might be out by a few hundread years or so). It was definatly the first millenium. The C'tan had arrived on earth, wounded from a great battle and had insisted the town it was near give it a virgin female each day to consume, the last one left was the kings daughter, she was being taken to the dragon when a great knight (the emperor) came across them, learnt the story of the dragon, fought it, wounded it, realised it couldnt be killed and so trapped it (on mars). where he knew it would foister the machine god myth which he could us to his advantage when he arrived on mars and was seen as being the machine god incarnate by the mechanicum. Now this is
A a long long long life, even for a genetically engineered human.

Interessting thought but I am far from convinced about his ties with the old ones.
Nothing points to that while canon fluff directly disproves this.
He IS the amalgamation of old human shamans.
He is a genious with powerful psychic abilities but everything else points to his human origins. He HAS all the failings of a normal human, pride, forgetfulness, naivity etc.

He beat the ctan yes but nowhere does it say he knew what it was on sight. He couldnt kill it so he imprisoned it, no doubt guided by his foresight abilities.

and B shows an ability to see into the future, so he is def not human. We also know he has tremendous psychic abilities, he also seems to have other strange powers, for instance he helas a palladin knights damaged leg at the very start of mechanicum, and just generally all who see him appear to be overwhelmed and just love him instantly when they see him.

Many "normal" human psychers have the ability to see into the future, be it by direct psychic means or by taro reading. Xenos races such as the eldar are even better at it and neither is the old one so there goes that theory about him definately not being a human.

Affecting metal (matter) is also a form of common in human psychers, telekinesis. Nothing abnormal there either. Canon fluff tells us of ghuman alpha psychers being able to snap a titan in two so why couldnt the emperor (even more powerful) not be able to bend some steel in a walkers chassis?
Nothing old one about that either.

Telepaths have the ability to affect peoples thoughts so him making people like him is nothing old one-ish.

Now on top of this, he genetically created the primarchs, unified a country then a galaxy and is the galaxies biggest athiest. All of this points to him being an old one, why. Well the old ones didnt believe in gods, they new how the universe was created, how it worked and trustyed in science and technology, much like the emperor.

Nothing about this points to him being an old one. He is a super psycher, the amalgamation of multiple souls that all knew about the future and chaos, nothing impossible about him then trying to shield humanity from said dangers.

The old ones created the races (eldar, ork, human) to help fight the C'tan, the by product was the chaos powers. The emperor above the ret of humanity seems to understand the nature of chaos already oin the horus books, long before the other primarchs do even. The eldar and the orks had old ones watching over them (mork and Gork where apparantly old ones, and the eldar "gods" where also old ones). Now the emperor may have seen that subtle manipulation of a species leads to failure (the eldar created slanesh, the orks, well, they became what they are now). It is possible that the emperor saw the tide was turning against them in the war against the necrons, and so decided to take a more active hand in the development of the only species left with a chance to fight the C'tan, humanity.

See above, the shamans accordign to canon fluff understood and saw the coming danger of chaos. Nothing to do with old ones at all.
It is ultimately the emperors own humanity and its inherited flaws that allowed the breaking up on his Imperium.

Also humanity is not the work of the old ones, fluff states specifically that humanity sprang up as a chance, an unguided race that in time surpassed the eldar themselves.
Fluff also hints that the old ones gave up on the psychic races as the ctan developed (and do) means to combat psychic races.
The old ones newest toys in the battle against the ctan are the Tau so it seems.
Read up on the creation of the tau empire and the coming of their etherals and strong hints point to a much deeper force guiding them.

When he realised how close humanity was getting to the warp he banned "Witch craft" (psykers) having learnt from the mistakes with the eldar. The great crusade was an atttempt to prepare Humanity for the coming war with the necrons. But again Chaos messed with his plans, and now he is in stasis unable to warn his children about the impending disaster.

Some fluff states he CAN communicate with people still, even canon fluff hints this or outright claims this as with the fluff on the daughters of the emperors.
Being in the throne though (and the throne is part of the definite proof that he is not an old one) made him loose control of the Imperium though so not its run wild and retordet do what he didnt want it to do (superstition, stagnation etc).



Well, it been fun but the definite proof that the Man himself was just a man and not an old one lie in the webways themselves.
The old ones created them and knew about them as a means to travel without having to use the dangerous warp. This was the biggest legacy of the old ones and the Emperor should he be one of them or even be guided by them did N O T know about this!!!!
He discovered the webways by accident around the 30eth millenia, just around the time horus went awol.
He had no idea about what it was other then some super hi-tech dimensional tunnel system and his secret work consisted of scouting the webways and suiting them for human travel and thereby finally be able to skip the reliance of warp travel and its dangers and warp storms and their final say in humanities isolation and ultimate fate.

Te throne itself is a machine that allows him to keep the gate on earth closed as well as keep him "alive" since Magnus ruined his plans and released daemons into the webway close to terra.

An old one would have known all about this, even a person "just" guided by the old ones would have been tought to exploit the webways far sooner then happened instead of fumbling with the warp and risking humanitys fate until it was to late...as it happened.

Pyriel- wrote:so there goes that theory about him definately not being a human.

Or rather, the theory of him being an Old One.

I agree with everything in your post, -but- this bit. We know he isn't technically human, as his birth and life are not truly natural. But he's not some member or creation of a long-extinct Alien race. Being that he was first concieved as a conciousness in the Warp thanks to the Shamans' ritual, he's not a 'true-to-definition' human. Even though that is his phsyical form.

Completely true i have heard many things about the emperor the one where he is a chaos god is complete BS.
The Emperor is a minor god? what? no.
he can't use his powers agianst humanity. Thats why he didn't blow them up.
The emperor is stronger than all of the chaos gods combined. (Except the fifth one who is dead)

I agree with everything in your post, -but- this bit. We know he isn't technically human, as his birth and life are not truly natural. But he's not some member or creation of a long-extinct Alien race. Being that he was first concieved as a conciousness in the Warp thanks to the Shamans' ritual, he's not a 'true-to-definition' human. Even though that is his phsyical form.

You are right.
By human I meant he is born as a human and has experienced childhood and all the assorted things that make us humans human.

The emperor is stronger than all of the chaos gods combined. (Except the fifth one who is dead)

Well, it would be more sensible if he was just as strong as the chaos gods actually as he embodies all the positive aspects contrary from the negative ones the chaos gods stand for and those ought to balance themselves out.

Imagine, if hate and deceit can spawn chaos gods then positive feeling are able to manifest just as powerfully in the warp. It would be like water and oil, two equally strong forces being "born" in the warp.
Well, that is not entirely true, no chaos god is 100% evil and negative, ALL aspects of chaos simultaneously give birth to or grant power to positive and light sides.
The same goes with say, the emperor, all positive sides of the warp also give birth to the negative aspects as well. It is impossible to have only "evil" or only "good" aspects in the warp.


And what fifth chaos god who is dead?
You mean the fifth god that was discontinues due to a copyright issue with GW and the author? Lol
And what about the 6:th and 7:th chaos gods? I certainly use those in my RPG gaming group and its a success with everyone.

Pyriel- wrote:
And what fifth chaos god who is dead?

Careful, you never know when GW's listening. The fifth god never existed. Remember? Just like Squats.

Exactlly just like how i am a opitical illusssion.

There's one basic flaw in the reasoning behind the Emperor needing to be an old one in order to be that powerful...

the 40k universe has already left the realm of logic that we exist in.... therefore, there's nothing to say that a human can't be that powerful and while one event would seem to suggest it's more likely for him to be an old one, the weight of evidence would suggest otherwise... it's just never happened other than the emperor... there are no other examples of a psyker with that much power and therefore no way to tell what effects it would have on a person, like potentially limitless lifespan barring injury...

The lack of incredibly extended foresight on the emperors part seems to suggest that he's more human than other, the fact that while capable of wounding a c'tan he's still vulnerable to Horus would suggest that he's human, however his ability to simply destroy horus when he fully realised the extent of his corruption once again corroborates the idea that he is immensely more powerful than any other human psyker the universe has seen, also the fact that his psychic power is enough to sustain his life force separate from a body for the length of time that it has whilst still needing to be sustained, ie if he was left alone he would die seems to suggest once again that he is not an old one...

so it would seem that the emperor isn't an intervention from one of the other great forces in the 40k universe but rather he's a case study of what humanity could be given the right moral guidance, force of will and correct use of immense power...

metallifan wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:
And what fifth chaos god who is dead?

Careful, you never know when GW's listening. The fifth god never existed. Remember? Just like Squats.

what are squads? oh what? oh god nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
*BLAM!*

I always thought the star child fluff got discounted in i think it was the 3rd ed rule book when it was stated that it was the dellusional ramblings of a tzeetchian cult

Star Child was discarded. Pretty much all the old fluff has been discarded. Right now, he's just sitting on the Throne forever. There are two groups of Inquisitors - one that believes that the Emperor must remain bound to the throne for the Imperium to survive, and another side that thinks that disconnecting him and letting him die will make him reincarnate, and that keeping him in the Throne is only holding him back from returning.

This thread is as reincarnated as the emperor is theorized to be!

For what its worth, I like the logic and reasoning behind your theory, but I don't see anything compelling enough to change my notions about the emperor.

A few questions:

If the Orks have Gork and Mork, and the Eldar have their equivalents, then why don't humans have their own versions of these dieties?

How would he be able to make the primarchs from his own seed if he was an old one? Wouldn't this mean all the primarchs are old ones (or descendants of them at least)? It would kind of explain why Horus was able to wound the emperor.

Why did the emperor always warn about the Warp being mankind's greatest peril, and not the Necrons?

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:This thread is as reincarnated as the emperor is theorized to be!

For what its worth, I like the logic and reasoning behind your theory, but I don't see anything compelling enough to change my notions about the emperor.

A few questions:

If the Orks have Gork and Mork, and the Eldar have their equivalents, then why don't humans have their own versions of these dieties?

How would he be able to make the primarchs from his own seed if he was an old one? Wouldn't this mean all the primarchs are old ones (or descendants of them at least)? It would kind of explain why Horus was able to wound the emperor.

Why did the emperor always warn about the Warp being mankind's greatest peril, and not the Necrons?

The Ork and Eldar gods are warp manifestations of their unique conscious and unconscious traits (they are not Old Ones). Humans have thier own gods too, they're called Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle.

All of this is established in the RoC books and contrary to what most people think Codex: Necrons says, it does not say that the Chaos Gods were born during the War in Heaven, it merely says that it was at this point that the hitherto nice creatures of the warp became corrupted by all the bloodshed and horror. It's possible to go even further and it could be that whilst their have always been 'Chaos Gods' those gods were not always Khorne, Nurgle et cetera, they are merely the current dominant personalities for the warp entities thought of as the Chaos Gods.

Just as Slaanesh took many thousands of years to be fully born so too did the other three Chaos Powers. Since the Chaos Powers have existed forever and also do not exist yet due to the timeless nature of the warp they can be both forming and formed at the same time, there is no need to suppose that Codex:Necrons even alters the earlier background at all.

Currently the Star Child (that is, the Emperor's soul) is adrift on the currents of the warp and waiting for re-birth much like the Chaos Gods when they were in their nascent forms. Eventually He will be re-born and then you'll have your truly human god.

Also, the Emperor is human. It is possible for psykers in general to reincarnate their souls into new bodies. Human psykers were able to do it and so could the Eldar once. The Chaos Gods put paid to that though and whilst psykers do potentially have the ability to reincarnate it is much more likely that their souls will be devoured by daemons.

The Shamans chose to reincarnate once more into a single human body rather that one each. The New Man (or Emperor) is a human, only His soul is a gestalt of all the souls of the Shamen, this is why He was born in the usual fasion after being conceived in the usual fasion. The New Man was not even aware that He was anything other than an ordinary man until later life when He slowly began to recall the lives of the shamen.

None of this background has been discared, merely omitted. The Sensei are thought to be a Tzeentchian plot and were/are persecuted by the Inquisition althought that was always the case anyway. If you want to have a living descendant of the Emperor as a character you still can. In the more recent background the position filled by the Illuminati is now filled by Thorians and the like so the older background has been discared or altered just duplicated and the clone has been given a facelift and a new name. From a background perspective you could easily say that Promeus and Moriana were Illuminati, which agrees and gels the older and newer background information together perfectly.

ok assuming that the emperor is reincarnated from all the dead shamens whats not to say the shamens weren't old ones?

Where did the "star child" story come from? Is it a book, white dwarf, or just kind of a known myth?

DerangdFlamingo wrote:ok assuming that the emperor is reincarnated from all the dead shamens whats not to say the shamens weren't old ones?

Seriously? Because they were human, as stated by the fluff. Blindly shooting out questions is bad format.

DerangdFlamingo wrote:ok assuming that the emperor is reincarnated from all the dead shamens whats not to say the shamens weren't old ones?

This:

Since the first primitive humans evolved the species had/ developed a special relationship with the warp... ...Some of these/ early humans were more sensitive than others... ...these humans assumed the role of shaman or tribal witch...

Realms of Chaos The Lost and The Damned page 174

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Where did the "star child" story come from? Is it a book, white dwarf, or just kind of a known myth?

All of this history for the Emperor comes from the 1990 book Realm of Chaos The Lost and The Damned which detailed the life of the New Man before He took on the title of Emperor, His plans to create a new super race, the Horus Heresy and the beginnings of the Star Child. It also tells us about the Sensei, the living descendants of the Emperor.

The "Star Child" theory is also expounded in The Inquisition War, a trilogy from way back that started out cool then went downhill pretty quickly. Inquisitor Draco actually got to talk to the emprah at one point, but for the life of me I can't remember that anything useful came out of the conversation. They also called it the Chaos Child, even more blasphemous!

There's a similar nod to the Star Child in the novel Eye of Terror where a Changer of Ways ruminates on the fact that if the Emperor was killed and fully released from His mortal body He would be able to combine with the Chaos Gods and create a single cohesive being that would calm the warp.

Intresting never heard that before.

I like that idea. It could explain the whole "No-one knows how he came to power" thing

Well, at danger of resurrecting this thread, surprised how long it ran for . Having read peoples comments, and also knowing much of the fluff (I actually own a copy of realms of chaos) I still stick by my theory, Why do I think games workshop could move away from the shamen idea, Partially because other parts of realms of chaos have since been quietly discounted by more modern ideas, but also because in introducing the necrons, c'tan e.t.c. they have automatically re written the original Fluff idea concerning the old ones and chaos, which again makes me wonder how much of the old history GW take as unchangable cannon. maybe someone from the blacklibrary has clarified that, I havent seen it anywhere.

It is possible I am wrong, it is possible that GW will throw us all a curveball at some point in the future, I mean none of us saw the c'tan coming till it was sprung on us. It appears that GW may now have an overiding vision of the 40K universe and where it is going. Or maybe I am being naive . Anyway my intention was to get a disscussion going, and that was achieved, thankyou.

I don't know where I heard it from, but somewhere I came across the theory that the Emperor is actually the Chaos God of Order.

I have to admit, I like the Chaos God Idea because it's grim and dark and makes a twisted sort of sense. When you take something random and completely chaotic there is invariably something orderly to be picked out. I kind of seems to fit with the idea that the chaos gods only stop fighting each other when they're fighting the Imperium.

It also seems to give a reason for why the Imperium is such a hole. It's kind or like a physical hell where you re trapped by rules regulations and and an inept tyrannical bureaucracy.

Despite liking the Chaos God idea better, the Old One seems to make more sense, and seems more likely to be accepted as cannon by GW.

Anyway, I think the Shaman theory is the "official" story, so I go by that.

Ork and Eldar gods as Old Ones? Well, the Warp reflects the emotions of all beings right? Well that explains them.

Also, the Emperor knew of the existence of Gods, thats why he tried to get everyone not to worship or even believe in them, because he didn't want them to turn to Chaos.

I think:

The Emperor is human, just really powerful. His Psychic powers give him the godly power he has.

Old ones are extinct. If they still exist, they're very far away.

The humans, eldar, and orks were all created by the Old Ones.

The game was very heavily involved with the Warp until Necrons showed up and then the Old Ones and C'tan became far more prevelant. Honestly, I don't really care for them, I like the Warp gods better.

Maybe GW will clear this up in the new Necron codex whenever it comes out. I hope so.

He may be descended from an old one, but he is not an old one in any sense at all when it comes to age. Fluff states he is descended from the shamans which have guarded and guided humanity for thousands of generations. Those shamans may be descendants of old ones, thus making the Emperor a descendant of old ones.

Hail the IMMORTAL(old one trait) Emperor! Who defeated a C'tan(a god) in battle! Who saved humanity(we clearly dont know how to, or have the capacity to)! And brought infinte wisdom(something no human could ever have)! The omnipotent(self explainitory) ruler! Who even as a living corpse, fights for humanity(somthing only a god could do)! Hail the GOD Emperor!

I am a convert to this theory if you couldn't tell.

IggyEssEmManlyMan wrote:He may be descended from an old one, but he is not an old one in any sense at all when it comes to age. Fluff states he is descended from the shamans which have guarded and guided humanity for thousands of generations. Those shamans may be descendants of old ones, thus making the Emperor a descendant of old ones.

I think I like that one the best. Besides, just because the Emperor is as powerful as a God, doesn't mean he's an Old One.

i like the old one idea, but i dont think it holds enough of a foundation.

the psyker idea seem really lame to me, and i would rather the emperor be an old one than a man gifted from the death of many psykers.

Wait a minute wait. Was this thread necro'd THREE times?!

No, maybe.... no. Wait... yes.

Yes, you have witnessed a triple necro!

God save us!! *blam*

You have been executed for heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
God save us!! *blam*

You have been executed for heresy.

A thought for this thread, old as said thread may be. The Emperor might be an old one, who has no idea he's an old one.

He has lived his whole life on earth around humans and as such believes that he is one despite the fact his powers and powerset are beyond anything a human is capable of even in 40k. He's got amnesia or was born on earth and abandoned by his fellow old ones (hell that's a motive to hate gods and aliens if I ever heard one.)

He has unmatched, for a human or even an Eldar, magical powers, can traverse the warp unaided by a spaceship a thing old ones can notably do.

More interestingly is his title of anathema. Tzeentch can see the future and most other things and thus should probably have known about the emperor long before he became a problem. And Black Library and Horus Heresy lore state that Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Khorne predate humanity by millions of years. So why then is he called anathema if he's just a big ol' psyker who some shamans suicide-birthed to protect the earth from chaos (a backstory which is contradicted in modern lore.) Well, that's because the Emperor's powers (regardless of when he was actually born) are from a time of stability and peace in the warp as such a complete anathema to the Chaos gods. To a chaos god, born in the maelstrom ridden warp of the present, such a comparatively antediluvian thing would be, well an Anathema.

Plus I do like the story potential that the Emperor being an old one brings to the grimdark future. What is this creature's ultimate game plan? Does he truly love humanity, or does he see them as a source of spare parts, the raw clay needed to make his race anew after elevating humanity to the level of the Old Ones?

He was born in Anatolia during the Age of Strife. How can he be an old one?

 Darian Aarush wrote:
He was born in Anatolia during the Age of Strife. How can he be an old one?

Not the Age of Strife. He was born at the start of the Bronze Age.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Darian Aarush wrote:
He was born in Anatolia during the Age of Strife. How can he be an old one?

Not the Age of Strife. He was born at the start of the Bronze Age.

Sorry, I stand corrected.

I don't think he's an Old One, though (apart from in the literal sense of being bloody old!).

Apperantly the Eldar Gods are not Old Ones. They were psychic superweapons created by the Eldar and supervised by the Old Ones.

When the Old Ones started to die out, their influence among the Eldar started to wane. Eventually, without the guiding hand of the Old Ones, the Eldar started to worship or idolize the power of their weapons and that in turn gave them a consciousness of their own.

The Eldar's psychic-based superweapons were transformed into the Eldar Gods.

^I might be off but it goes something like that. If its still true and hasnt been retconned, Its crazy how good the Eldar are at making gods. Hell, they even created Slaanesh from scratch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Somebody said Humans are not the creation of Old Ones?
Lol what? Yes they are... Old Ones loved life and just sprinkled it everywhere. Humanity is one of those species that was made for no reason other than to simply live. In comparison, the Eldar and Ork were also their creations, but were created specifically to be the galaxy's guardians and warriors to fight the C'tan, respectivley. The Eldar were nurtured and trained by the Old Ones on how to use their abilities, while the Krork, being created late in the War in Heaven, I believe were an unfinished species that were not fully finalized before the Old Ones went extinct or had to run away and abandon them

You realise the Old Ones went extinct so long ago that our planet didn't have anything like humans for millenia after they died? Humans are in no way Old One creations.

pm713 wrote:
You realise the Old Ones went extinct so long ago that our planet didn't have anything like humans for millenia after they died? Humans are in no way Old One creations.

Not directly, but there's certain evidence that their creations (Eldar) manipulated Human development. Which would make the Old Ones their indirect creators... But that fluff is very scarce and indeterminate.

But one thing this thread has shown me is how obvious it is that the Emperor is Morag-Hai. After hiding out in Asuryan's pantheon before the rest of the Old Ones were destroyed/chased away, she hid out on Earth when it was clear Asuryan's pantheon was going to be destroyed.

If Chaos ever manages to destroy the "Emperor", where will she hide next?

(That's not even headcanon. It's just a fun little crackpot theory. It does fit existing lore, though.)

Bharring wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You realise the Old Ones went extinct so long ago that our planet didn't have anything like humans for millenia after they died? Humans are in no way Old One creations.

Not directly, but there's certain evidence that their creations (Eldar) manipulated Human development. Which would make the Old Ones their indirect creators... But that fluff is very scarce and indeterminate.

But one thing this thread has shown me is how obvious it is that the Emperor is Morag-Hai. After hiding out in Asuryan's pantheon before the rest of the Old Ones were destroyed/chased away, she hid out on Earth when it was clear Asuryan's pantheon was going to be destroyed.

If Chaos ever manages to destroy the "Emperor", where will she hide next?

(That's not even headcanon. It's just a fun little crackpot theory. It does fit existing lore, though.)

How on earth does that fit existing lore?

I've not seen any of that evidence. Ever.

Eldar were in the Sol system before the Fall.

Or did you mean the lore backing of Morag Hai's new identity?

Both really.

Eldar being in Sol doesn't really mean they did anything to affect humans.

Locked due to severe thread necromancy.