Ever received any? How'd you know? Have any good resources online people can use to check what they do get?

Guess what I got for "Valentine's day".

with an iron fist wrote:Ever received any? How'd you know? Have any good resources online people can use to check what they do get?

Guess what I got for "Valentine's day".

You got counterfeit minis for v-day? o_o?


stuff i look for if its counterfeit:

1) constant large sales of kits out of box ( but not as bits ) with resin first, metal 2nd, plastic 3rd
2) if pic allows close up, i check for mold lines . recast doesnt seem to always follow the original.
3) continuing from #2 , the lvl of detail could be off.
4) lack of ID number on casts.
5) if seller originates in china.
6) I know professional painters that sells counterfeited recasts. But due to the quality painting
its really hard to tell , nor are people crazy enough to strip the figure to check.

Those are all the facts , whether people believe it or not, matters not to me. For i have nothing to gain
but atleast i have done my part to let warn / raise the awareness.

Very shiny lead models with low detail levels. Good way to tell.

BYE

Also, note the packaging, if it has any.

Very shiny lead is a great indicator, as is everything being sold primed, but never painted.


In terms of quality, if it looks good, feels good, and plays good, I'm less concerned about it's authenticity. If I can't tell it's duped, well then even if it were, why would I care? I"m not suggesting anybody buy or sell duped minis, it's just that it's rare to received duped minis so obviously counterfeit they can't be used.

Everything stated above is still a good sign, but there are a few other factors:
1) Minis in large quantities of old, OOP minis that were never popular. Classic examples are lots of 10+ OOP Fiends of slaanesh. Sure, some hard core fans had a few big units, but most of the time any lot that big is probably duped.

2) painted/primed "limited edition" models without the packaging. Sgt. Centurius is the most egregious example, but there are probably more duped versions of the popular figs than legit ones.

3) Almost any of the old Armorcast GW stuff, unfortunately. The relatively low detail level means pretty much anybody with a Warhound can use it as a master and dupe more.

4) Anybody that sells a lot of the same models, always out of packaging is a big give away. Sure, somebody might have 10 wraithguard to sell, but selling 10 every week?

Dupers make their killing on high margin items. The ltd edition are higher detail, but make a fortune. Stuff with relatively low detail but that are expensive at retail and are hot are more likely to be duped: Wraithguard, Bloodcrushers, Legion of the damned.

If they're the same quality as the originals I personally could care less. I mean someone doesn't want to spend a $1000 on a new WH army, or actually use Wraithguard while still eating lunch for a few months, why that son of a bitch...

As for how to spot them, generally large lots of primed OP metal models are the most suspect to me. The shiny lead thing too, or really any slightly off color. Though as I said before, price gouging makes people angry and I shed no tears for GW. When someone else can make the same thing for cheaper and you suffer, well that's called real capitalism. Don't like it, well support a social system that doesn't reward greed, but I don't think you're going to do that anytime soon.

*Yes this post was mostly an angry rant, no need to point that out so feel free to ignore it, but I stand by what I said.*

If it meant finally being able to get them in plastic, I'd buy duped GKs/Sisters.

...just saying...

My 100 Steel Legion troops were all counterfake. He only sold the 1 peice models, so I got all the basic troops and special weapons, but no Sgt.'s officers or Heavey weapons. Even having to buy all these seperate, I saved about 50% on the GW price. That was about 6 years ago, from a guy on FleaBay, who no longer trades.

If GW lowered their prices, people would buy more of their stuff.

It's rubbish to say that counterfeiters are operating the capitalist system by producing figures cheaper than GW.

They can only do it because they don't have to design and sculpt the figures.

I would beg to differ with Killkrazy. I think they can only do it because GW figs are so widely used. I doubt the sculpters and designers are paid so much that it drives the price of the mini up that much. I would think that "amortizing" the hugely expensive reproduction equipment and profit margin end up making up much more of the cost of each individual mini than cost of design or sculpt. However, that's really not much more than opinion. I don't have access to the data to do much more than that.

Guess what I got for "Valentine's day".

What type of figure was it a fake of?

When it comes to Counterfeiters....why buy from them?

What right do they have to make money from someone elses labours?

GW goes to the trouble of making up all the designs and moulds, hence the higher price. Someone just makes a cheap copy for quick proffit?
i think ill buy real stuff thanks.

with an iron fist wrote:Ever received any? How'd you know?

Disclaimer: Please note that I'm not a native speaker, so the technical terms might be a bit off.

I figure the same techniques used for finding out other counterfeit products apply: I think the first step to finding out about counterfeit miniatures is trying to do it yourself. If you don't come from a country where it is legal to reproduce stuff for personal use, just do a mental exercise, of course. ;-)

What materials can you use to reproduce miniatures? Some metals, ceramics and resin. Modern plastics for injection-moulding are out of question - even GW does not do that very often, because it only makes sense for really big production runs. There are counterfeits in plastic in other niche hobbies: Airsoft players might know the fight between Chinese and Japanese companies that produce nearly the same models (KJW, KWA...). This mostly stems from them using the same moulds - Japanese companies having their stuff produced in China, then adding their own QA (hopefully...). The Chinese companies then use the moulds themselves. Since GW does not produce in China, this is pretty improbable to happen to GW miniatures.

So metals, ceramics and resin-like plastics remain. For metals, you would normally use tin-based alloys, because brass and silver, while pretty good stuff for the job, are either to expensive or require temperatures that are not reached within small workshops. Also, these temperatures break most moulds.

As for tin-based alloys, the composition of the alloy is usually a good hint. If you have old Rackham miniatures and "white metal" GW miniatures, you'll see the difference. Confrontation had a much higher detail level, because they used a softer alloy. A reproduction will usually use a different allow, sometimes even pure tin (amateurs!). That leads to a loss of details.

Also, the choice of material limits what you can re-cast. If you find the modern-style terminators (the bigger ones) made from tin, they is a forgery, I guess, because they were only made in plastic.

For ceramics and resin, I have no idea. Colour and weight usually give those away.

How can you build moulds? Modern moulds used by GW have a pretty slick design. If you follow the mould lines, few of them are made with two rectangular blocks as mould halves. Mimicking this is possible using rubber moulds, but it is hard to do. A hint therefore would be the placement of mould lines. Additional mould lines might be results of a re-cast, too.

These moulds also restrict the available materials a lot. You cannot cast brass in those, unless you use really expensive moulding material. As for the price: Re-casting stuff to sell it only makes sense if you can reuse the form. Rubber moulds will last a hobbyist for quite a while, but producing enough to sell is not easily done with the finer moulds. Again, this would lead to a loss of detail. Btw.: Old Rackham miniatures also showed the wear and tear of moulds reused too often: I spent several days trying to find out what a specific part on the coat of a Meliador model was supposed to be until I understood that this was just the result of a broken mould that lost a part.

How do you use moulds? Creating moulds is a topic you learn for quite some time as an apprentice , so it is not that easy. There are a lot of mistakes to make and to recognize, but I dunno much about that. One typical problem is making the canal for the metal too short. You need some weight pressing the metal in the lowest parts of the form, so it has to be big. And you need it to be very long, so the metal can cool down properly. Making it not big enough leads to improper casting on the lower part of the miniature. Making it too short means a lot of heat on the upper part. Both result in a loss of details in those places.

Since fitting forms sometimes is a problem (putting pressure on the rubber mould to make it fit snugly), mould lines then to extend a lot, creating small areas of very thin material. This can be seen on FW resin casts, too, but on tin (commercially made in very sturdy and expensive moulds), this is rare.

Are the forgeries you cannot recognize? Of course. And if you buy stuff that's not in its original box any more, you'll never know ;-) There are people who learned this kind of stuff: Dentists, goldsmiths and civil engineers mostly. But usually they don't sell this, because there is not much money to be made if you do it properly. Also, these people are usually taught copyright laws, too, so they know doing this might ruin you easily.

A personal note: Besides the legal aspect, the loss of details and the needed clean-up to me is a reason not to buy any counterfeit miniatures if I recognize them. It's not worth the additional work. That said, sometimes I was tempted to create a special weapons sprue, pay for the injection mould tool to be built, create 10.000 of those sprues, ship them to GW and shout at them "Sell them now. Or I'll do it!". I'd probably add a lot of insulting terms the word filter here would eat anyway, too.
But that is just wishful thinking. *sigh*

P.S.: If someone knows a bit more on this issue, we could collect the info here and then I'd venture to make a wiki article out of this.

I know that when I worked for GW, one time this kid, about 15-16 from out of town came in to our store with these awesomely painted tyranids. Man, we were impressed. "dude, did you paint these, because they are awesome!" "Yeah I did, my dad got me all these models for me to paint, etc" "Can i pick one up?" "Sure"

WTF... all the metal models weighed less than plastic. (Keep in mind this was when carnifexes were metal and so on) I told the kid to packup his things, and had a chat with him outside the store, and told him while his painting was excellent, it was actually what saved me from snapping his models in half, since they were fakes/recasts.

Like mentioned above, the painting was really good, so whether he was lying when he said he painted them because his dad or whomever bought them off ebay, I'll never know, but they weren't SO good that it wasnt unreasonable that he painted them. He looked very sad, because he didn't know you couldnt use fakes in our store, and in the end, if it wasnt him that bought the models, whoever DID, ended up screwing him over since he couldnt play in our big event that day with his models. I of course let him use mine, from Hive Fleet Tankbrushicus. But yeah, that was my only time in 5 years of GW that I have run into recasts, but the detail was pretty good on them, though I suspect my armorcast warhound was a recast, but it came in the right tan resin color, had the box and instructions, etc.. but I'll never know for sure.

I believe GW have a things to look for list when it comes to recasting.

Plastic Models cast in Metal.
Older models cast in White Metal (for example, Squats and Rogue Trader era were cast in Lead, the White Metal switchover came during 2nd Edition)
Secondary Mold Lines
Different coloured plastics.

That sort of thing.

Matt Varnish wrote:WTF... all the metal models weighed less than plastic. (Keep in mind this was when carnifexes were metal and so on)

Probably ceramics then. Seems to be something to look at if the details were that good ;-)

told him while his painting was excellent, it was actually what saved me from snapping his models in half, since they were fakes/recasts.

Considering that you worked for a shop makig money selling the genuine article, I can understand that you felt like that. Yet the fact that destroying someone else's property would, afaik, not have been in line with Canadian law ("ultra vires" -> federal case) nor the GW approach (as a copyright holder). The last time I looked, GW still exchanged all your counterfeit models against real ones if you gave hints (some might say "ratted out" to where you bought it.

The link below has it all: "If the products are indeed counterfeit, we will reimburse you for any postage costs and will try our best to replace any counterfeit with the genuine article.".

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I believe GW have a things to look for list when it comes to recasting.

Right. There it is: http://uk.games-workshop.com/legal/counterfeiters/1/

Different coloured plastics.

That one does not seem to be a good indicator. I got sprues from different years lying around. They are all coloured differently.

Is not so much the shade of grey of the plastic.

For example, Genestealer Hybrids, when in plastic, were in my experience universally a sort of cream colour, as were the Terminator Libratians they shared a sprue with.

Thus, if I was to find some on Ebay in Grey Plastic, I would be suspicious to say the least....

Shades of plastic / grays are not accurate. Like MDG mentioned some older plastics were actually yellow , the skeleton regiment for another example.

There are actually 2 shades of gray now days, look at my HOChaos in gallery if you want. The older lighter gray ones seems softer , and more prone to snapping , bending.

Just glad there are some people on Dakka*2 that knows first hand that counterfeit do exist without calling me crazy xD

Regarding the cermic tyranids , When a counterfeit is in a good painter's hand ( like i mentioned #6 ) The amount of detail actually becomes less important. If they work with the models long enough , they know where to apply even more shadows on the areas that arnt as detailed ( same way as good painters deal with skaven warrior feets )

Like i said, lot of counterfeiting seller / painter knows this ( they know you wont strip the $90 you just paid ) just to check for counterfeiting , they'll take advantage of it.


Those of you Canadians that live in Vancouver area, that want to see my claims first hand , feel free to visit Richmonds Night Market ( open in summer )
where the items sold 70% are counterfeits 10% are food so doesnt count , and 20% are legit.

Great video.

Love the semi-random twitches on the zoom at the beginning, to give it that authentic "yoof" style.

This thread first shocked me, then made me laugh.

First, I had no idea that there were such a thing as counterfeit plastic/metal army men. I really didn't.

Second, EVERY GW MODEL IS A HIGH MARGIN MODEL.

It costs a few cents to make a plastic sprue. It really does. GW makes exorbitant amounts of money selling stuff to stores, who in turn have a standard 40% markup, and then they sell it to you and I - the consumer.

I have two pretty large armies; Tau and Orks. I've given GW a good damn bunch of money for them. I don't care if people play with pennies as proxies, or with actual plastic army men because I'm playing there to have fun. So what if people use duplicated figures? If it becomes a serious issue, GW will either take legal action or reconsider their pricing scheme. Remember, GW invented the phrase "counts as." They support the idea of people playing the hobby even though they don't have the models for it. If someone puts down an army in front of me, I don't care who made the models as long as they visually represent something I understand, and as long as we're about to have some fun.

Because if people are buying counterfeit models, some arsehole is making a profit at GW's expense. Regardless of company, that takes the piss.

Also, it is a obvious breach of copyright, as gw paid for the copy right.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Because if people are buying counterfeit models, some arsehole is making a profit at GW's expense. Regardless of company, that takes the piss.

First of all, I understand breach of copyright. Raise your hand if you've never downloaded a song, movie, or game from the internet?

Second, its GW's copyrighted material. I support GW - I've given them a lot of money for some plastic army men. But its THEIR copyright. Its their business to pursue, and neither I nor you have any reason to have ruffled feathers over it. Just like when you play an MMO...there are always gold farmers trying to make money off the MMO company's work. So? I'm not worried about it. That's their business, and I have enough to deal with.

These things exist because of demand. My point is that we're supposed to be playing this game to have fun. Who are you...who are any of us to frown on someone for not using the models that we think they should? For using proxies? For not having as much disposable income to spend on plastic toys?

I don't go looking for counterfeit GW stuff, nor counterfeit anything to buy, but I'm not going to go out of my way to damn other people. That's not my (or your) sphere of responsibility. That's all I'm saying.

If someone got an entire 40k army from China for $50...as long as the plastic sprues don't say "Games Workshop" on them, and as long as they aren't identified as GW models, then we're golden. They can paint them and use them all day long. And if they ARE imitations pretending to be GW products, then I hope GW smacks them down. But I don't care - they have plenty of money.

Read the other threads in this forum; material costs are down 60%, transportation costs are down 70%, wages are pretty much static, and their prices are going up. GW doesn't seem to be particularly concerned about giving me or anyone else reasonable prices for the goods they present, is it any strange idea then that someone would go into business trying to compete with them?

Dashofpepper wrote:Who are you...who are any of us to frown on someone for not using the models that we think they should?

Because it's Grotsnik you're talking to. He's Dakka's self appointed Moral Guardian. To him, buying a counterfeit model is not only illegal, but downright evil. And the one's making the counterfeit models are even more evil than that. They're like evil (x2), or something.

BYE

Thats not how i see it. GW is a hobby not a necessity .

Why be so desperate to play with counterfeit stuff if GW is too expensive? just find another game works too right?

GW is expensive for a few reasons : broad range , long history in miniature gaming. You can expect to buy their product and not run out of people that plays it.

That and players demand for their product deem no reason for them to lower the prices. They are business company not charity.

Moral? this is moral? rofl no silly.

Its class and integrity. If anyone think wearing fake Rolex makes them high roller, they are
only lying to themselves.

LunaHound wrote:They are business company not charity.

Correct. GW prices are still too high in some cases though. And none of that has much to do with spotting counterfeit models.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

LunaHound wrote:They are business company not charity.

Correct. GW prices are still too high in some cases though. And none of that has much to do with spotting counterfeit models.

BYE

Oh i agree its high, nor do i like it. But i still wont buy counterfeit stuff because i rather have
legit a$$o take my money then counterfeiters.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Who are you...who are any of us to frown on someone for not using the models that we think they should?

Because it's Grotsnik you're talking to. He's Dakka's self appointed Moral Guardian. To him, buying a counterfeit model is not only illegal, but downright evil. And the one's making the counterfeit models are even more evil than that. They're like evil (x2), or something.

BYE

No, I just don't see why some little scrote should benefit from anothers hard work.

If someone wants more of a particularly rare model, for example, Trenchraider and his Space Slaan, there is the morally netural approach of making your mold, and melting down existing GW models. GW get their cut, you get the models you are after.

The difference between downloads and knockoffs, is that downloads, whilst still not right, aren't lining *anyones* pockets.

Another thing to note if the idiot is selling half a dozen duplicates of the same pose as a lot, then they're probably fakes.

Indeed.

Now, if someone is foolish enough to seek out Counterfeit stuff just to reduce the price, that is their business, and they can deal with the crap they get without whinging,

But, when someone is selling them as the real deal...that is NOT on.

LunaHound wrote:

Its class and integrity. If anyone think wearing fake Rolex makes them high roller, they are
only lying to themselves.

That's my point. Its not my business whether you wear a fake Rolex or not. I'm not going to condemn you for wearing one if you do either. if I choose to wear a real one, that's my business - but it is egregious elitism to frown on someone else for what they choose to do with their money.

Your only input to a gamer is whether you enjoy playing with them or not. That's what I'm saying.

Dashofpepper wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Its class and integrity. If anyone think wearing fake Rolex makes them high roller, they are
only lying to themselves.

That's my point. Its not my business whether you wear a fake Rolex or not. I'm not going to condemn you for wearing one if you do either. if I choose to wear a real one, that's my business - but it is egregious elitism to frown on someone else for what they choose to do with their money.

Your only input to a gamer is whether you enjoy playing with them or not. That's what I'm saying.

Yes but in this case it actually hurts the company ( even if its alittle atm )
Counterfeiting rings catches on pretty fast.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:But, when someone is selling them as the real deal...that is NOT on.

Well yes, fair enough. That's not just copyright infringement but deception as well. But if someone was selling the and openly acknowledging them as copies, then they're not really deceiving anyone.

BYE

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Indeed.

Now, if someone is foolish enough to seek out Counterfeit stuff just to reduce the price, that is their business, and they can deal with the crap they get without whinging,

But, when someone is selling them as the real deal...that is NOT on.

That's better.

Early in the thread there was talk about outrage that someone would dare use counterfeit models, and how to spot them...and it really made me feel...uneasy I guess is the word. I've bought a LOT of stuff from GW. I've also supplemented my army via E-bay (I got 60 1st or 2nd edition Gretchin a couple weeks ago). I don't think that they're counterfeit, but I wouldn't care if they were. GW charges $1.50 per gretchin. A 3 point model costs $1.50 for half an ounce of formed plastic. 60 gretchin gives me two full troop choices of them, and buying them straight from GW...way too much money. So I got them online, and they cost me about $0.40 apiece. They aren't primed, and I also got two trukks along with them (in the box and on the sprue) so I suspect that they were legitimate.

But if models were readily available to me that were counterfeit and were substantially cheaper than GW stuff, AND looked about the same....I'd probably buy them. Not because I'm unethical, but because I *KNOW* how much models cost, and how much markup there is by the time it gets to me. There's profit, and then there's greed, and GW prices are far beyond profit and into the range of unadulterated abusive greed.

I 'know someone' who may have recieved a counterfiet hellblade from b-town last year. 'He' didn't give it a second thought until 'he' bought a second one from forgeworld direct and the resin was a differant color. The first one also came in a bag without the forgeworld symbols and had photocopied assembly instructions. Being new to forgeworld models 'he' didn't give any of this a second thought until 'he' recieved the second model. Funny thing was the forgeworld one was warped while the possibly counterfiet one was straight as an arrow, great detail, minor mold lines. Who knows???

thalor

Go have a look at GW's Investor Relations.

See their annual turnover, and then the profit margin.

Then, suitably informed, come back here and make the same statement hand on heart....

I agree.

counterfit models are bad and Games Workshop should be the only proper place to get minitures from

I get rid of bulk duplicates every few months (I tend to scour the 2nd hand stuff at tourneys for bargains, and end up with gems, and a lot of scurf).

In the last year, I've given away 7 (identica)l Steel legion figures, 8 attillan rough rider torsos (identical) and a handful of catachan metals (also identical). All were unpainted and "unwanted" (by me) leftovers from the bits collections. The bags were relatively cheap (came in a bag of bits for $30 including a 2nd ed metal sentinel, Vindicare assassin, steel legion, rough riders, catachans and 2nd ed metal IG heavy weapon (autocannon) carriages+crew.)

All were of the higher tin content 2nd ed period (shiny). All had one set of mold lines and all of the flash (gates/vents, etc) and the original tab intact. Am I to assume that because of the high quantity of duplicates, and the cheapness, that they were necessarily fakes?
All were part of lines that had a limited poses (for regular infantry). Players with these older models in their armies tended to have large numbers of identical figures as a result (they were a random pack - either blister pack or blister box). 2nd ed armies (even marine ones) tended to look like clone armies.

If they were recasts (which is possible) then they were very good ones (but having worked in non-ferric casting, it isn't that difficult for a skilled person to do this.).

I gave them away as they had no value to me (I didn't want them or need them), not because they were possible recasts that I wanted to fob off on others. If they had been something I could use, but others were willing to buy, I probably would've sold them - and probably run the risk of being called a purveyor of fakeries.

Just saying is all. Just because there's a lot of duplicates and they're cheap doesn't necessarily follow that they are fakes. If it's a "newer" model (only in plastic) in metal or resin (in that case, and not a FW piece) they are probably fakes. Otherwise, it ain't necessarily so.

Mad Dok:

I haven't analyzed GW's figures and profit margins or business practices. All I know is this:

A box of 5 Stormboyz costs $25.

A bag of 25 3" army-men costs $0.99.

I'm willing to put forth money on a wager that the army men that the dollar store over here sells has the same amount of plastic that the Stormboyz do. Not only that, but I don't have to assemble or paint the army men. That's a bonus to me. =p

How about this: A battlewagon costs $50. I can go to Walmart, and for $39.99, I can get the freakin' Batmobile from the newest movie. Its as large as a Battlewagon, is already painted, is a remote-controlled car, and fires little nerf missiles at the press of a button.

So tell me again how GW products aren't wildly over-priced. When I was in my FLGS talking about gretchin and wanting to know if they were any good, I mentioned going over and buying a bag of army men to proxy in and try it out - they poo-pooed my idea; no one outright said it, but it was a "Don't be cheap, buy the real thing." Well, at $15 for a pack of 10, when I want to know if two squads of 30 gretchin belong on the field, sinking $90 into an experiment is asking a little much when the store two doors down can give me just as much for $2. Does having "more detail" on the models justify it costing FOUR THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED PERCENT more? Yeah...4,500% more. 45x more.

I doubt it.

And Battlefoam is coming out with new cases to go along with the foam. Here's a great example. How is it that a competitor is able to make vastly superior products for less money? Either GW is ridiculously overcharging, or they are terribly mismanaged as a company such that their overhead is extreme.

My point is: This is all the reason WHY there is a counterfeit market. There is a vast margin being made here, regardless of what you see on their investor relations page. So if someone else wants to participate in the hobby, and they're not willing to spend $25 to get 5 models that make up 1/4 of a single troop choice, that's their call.

Personally, you can show up at a gaming table with me and use counterfeit models, army men, or little squares of paper. As long as you have a good attitude and we have fun you're alright in my book.



*EDIT* I'm not condoning selling counterfeits or using them - I'm just saying that I'm not going to crucify someone for doing it.

I do not support counterfeiting. I agree with Grotsnick in that a person should be rewarded for their work. However, Matt Varnish worries me. If my kid had some models that were "fakes", and some guy at a GW store destroyed them; I would completely lose the plot. You go trashing someone elses belongings, fakes or not, you are in for a rude awakening.

I was reading the GW page concerning counterfeits and I came across this gem:

In most, if not all, cases the villains do not know that we are watching them.

I just love this sentence out of context.

I can never resist a challenge. From the GW Investor Relations Page....

In the 6 months to 30th November 2008...

Revenue was £61.2million
Operating profit was £3.3million.

So, unless my mental arithmetic is way off, thats what, a 5% profit margin?

Why so low? Well, the companies making your precious Green Soldiers your banging on about is likely based in China. GW are based in the UK, where we have a minimum wage of around £5.85. Now, allowing a 40 hour week (average working hours) and over a year, thats £12,168 per full time employee over the age of 23 (minimum wage is lower for younger people).

Also, said Green Soldier company does not have it's own retail chain. Indeed, very very few manufacturers do. So, Manager, Full Timer and a Part Timer..£30,000 per store per annum, just in wages. And with.....340 Hobby Stores in the company....that's an annual wage bill, not including additional Store Level Management and resultant costs of a fairly whopping £10,200,000 just on wages. Then of course, you have the bills to pay, like Business Rates to the local councils, Store Leases, Insurance, Distribution, support infrastructure, and you can probably double that right there and then.

Sorry to piss on your chips, but the facts...they don't lie.

And if you need additional convincing.....how old are the molds being used for the Green Army Men? I'm willing to bet I can pick up a pack tomorrow, and recognise the same sculpts I had when I was a kid, almost 25 years ago. GW constantly produce new kits, year on year. Plus the literature etc. They own their own foundry, and every machine in it, to the best of my knowledge, all those Machines are bought and paid for, rather than leased.

Add in that the plastic used for the Green Army Men is that bizarre bendy one, and it's a cheaper product to begin with.

I would support counterfeiting if i could just find it.

I've looked all over ebay and just can't find anything that i could definitely say was fake.

Daggermaw wrote:I would support counterfeiting if i could just find it.

I've looked all over ebay and just can't find anything that i could definitely say was fake.

Go troll somewhere else 1/10

*PS i still remember you from another thread.

1/10?

1 for the troll's effort. Have to admire his effort following from past thread to this one.

Actually good quality recasts are almost impossible to tell from the real thing...especially after they have been cleaned, painted, and based. Note I said "good qaulity". Some of the more notorious defunct Ebay recasters lacked in model quality. "Mac-Ace" was the worst of these. His work apparently came from from individual "drop casts" rather than a spin caster. His work would be hard to pass off as original to anyone paying attention. The notorious "Goblins-Goodies" on the other hand, judging on his lot sizes, probably worked with a professional grade centrafuge casting machine and 12 inch round molds, just like many miniature companies use. His work was actually quite good and once painted would be an example of almost undetectable recasts.

Honestly, even bad recasts will often pass the test. How many of you know how to spot a recast? Now how many of those actually examine every model in an oppent's army, test it's weight, etc, to catch such counterfiets? Very few.

Moreover, there is a bit of mis-information on this and other threads about how to actually catch a recaster. For example...

Plastic Models cast in Metal.

Honestly you would have to be insane to do that as it's way too obvious. I do know one guy who does this on occasion, but he keeps those models for personal use and does not take them play with in public. I've never seen an example of a comercial recaster selling plastic models cast in metal.

Older models cast in White Metal (for example, Squats and Rogue Trader era were cast in Lead, the White Metal switchover came during 2nd Edition)

Actually you are incorrect there.
Why that statement is largely true, you have to keep in mind the archive service. Prior to about 2000 or so, pretty much any model in the Citadel range was available for direct sale from GW. You just called them up with the original catalog number and you get pretty much whatever you wanted cast up. (I certainly wish they still did that) Thus you will occasionally find old models from the "lead era" that are 100% legit product that are cast in lead-free alloy. Do a search of the "Citadel Minatures Collector's Yahoo group" for examples of discussions on this issue.
The opposite is not true of course. If you find a recent model cast up in a lead alloy, that's certain to be a recast.

Secondary Mold Lines

Once again, while largely true, that's not a 100% sure thing. You see due to the high tempatures involved, rubber molds wear out over time and have to be refurbished or replaced. At times, the model used to create the new mold that replaces the worn out one is not an original master, but a casting. The result is occasionally you will see a legit figure that has two sets of mold lines. I have myself pulled a figure (an old Jes Goodwin Eldar model before the 3rd ed. range was released) out of a store bought GW blister that had two sets of mold lines.

If someone wants more of a particularly rare model, for example, Trenchraider and his Space Slaan, there is the morally netural approach of making your mold, and melting down existing GW models. GW get their cut, you get the models you are after.

Actually that's not what occured.
My recaster friend uses 25$ bags of shotgun pellets as his main casting material. We only occasionally throw old unwanted figures in the crucible...and most often these are miscasts that he cast in the first place.

Finally...

However, Matt Varnish worries me. If my kid had some models that were "fakes", and some guy at a GW store destroyed them; I would completely lose the plot. You go trashing someone elses belongings, fakes or not, you are in for a rude awakening.

Quoted for truth.
Trashing someone elses property is never a good idea on a couple of different levels. But you hear that kind of crap all the time. "I would take his models outside and hit them with a hammer" sort of trash talk always pops up in the "Nazi themed army" threads for example. It's just another aspect of the "internet tought guy complex" and is not to be taken seriously.

TR

Mad Dok...

As I said, I don't follow GW PR or investor news.

But like I said: When a box of 5 plastic army men cost $25, and you need 4 of those boxes to get a full complement of troops...and that complement makes up 1 part of an army which is full of similarly priced plastic army men, well...that's too much money.

A lot of folks start hobby stores and become retailers simply to save themselves 40% off the cost of buying GW stuff.

I've spent a good share of money on GW stuff, but I've got enough at this point that I'm trying to compete in tournaments and win store credit to expand my army. I won an RTT yesterday and got $70 worth of store credit that got me two boxes of stormboyz and a box of ork boyz. Not bad for a $5 entry fee and 8 hours worth of playing a game.

But again...we're talking about counterfeiters. $100 for a single troops choice (when you're going to end up with 4-5 of them) is excessive for a lot of people. If they can't afford it, I'm not going to frown at them for being fiscally prudent, I'm going to be thankful that my life and productivity allow me to get the actual GW stuff.

Gotta love all the people here that think theft is a good idea or even defensible.

Dr. grot: really, it's not that they should at all. After all, it IS wrong. However, it's also about defending what's yours. GW wants to claim their IP rights? Fine, I don't really have a problem with it at all in theory. I htink their execution may be a bit heavy handed, but no two people are going to agree on everything. But, are they willing to defend those rights against all comers? No. Not worth it. So the people recasting either try to slide by under the radar, or keep their numbers down far enough to make prosecution a non-profitable option for GW. Because sometimes it's just not a battle worth fighting.

Right? Wrong? On both sides it a lot less about this. It comes down to the money, and how to get it.

If I were making an army with heavily converted models that are usually in abundance, I would definetly consider recasting the models in order to save time and sanity. However, in a situation like that, it would be nice to at least buy GW plastic for the moldings.

...just saying...

Centurian99 wrote:Gotta love all the people here that think theft is a good idea or even defensible.

"Theft" is a very harsh word.
I can't speak for everyone of course, but I regard non-comercial recasts (that is to say recasts done for personal use only, or those given away to others...in other words not sold for financial gain in any way) as a very minor offence that is akin to illegally dubbing a copy of a VHS tape in it's severity.
I'm sure I'm not alone.

In any event in the real world it's an offense that is almost impossible catch. The laws and rules against it are almost unenforceable. I could play an army that consisted 100% of counterfeit miniatures in a GW store and no one would be the wiser. That's not a judgement of the right or wrong of the act. It's just a statement of fact.

TR

Centurian99 wrote:Gotta love all the people here that think theft is a good idea or even defensible.

Law =/= Good

I can't really say it any more plain than that. Morality at its core is ultimately very much in the realm of opinion and personal ethics.

Though for what it's worth I do believe selling duplicates as the genuine article is wrong. I have a problem with duplicity. Duplicating an overpriced, scarce, and/or unavailable product; that I have no moral qualms about and I consider more than fair.

Trench-Raider wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:Gotta love all the people here that think theft is a good idea or even defensible.

"Theft" is a very harsh word.
I can't speak for everyone of course, but I regard non-comercial recasts (that is to say recasts done for personal use only, or those given away to others...in other words not sold for financial gain in any way) as a very minor offence that is akin to illegally dubbing a copy of a VHS tape in it's severity.
I'm sure I'm not alone.

Yep, its a harsh word. Yep, I chose it deliberately. And I also consider unauthorized dubbing of videos, unauthorized downloading of MP3s etc., to be theft. As someone who's done and continues to do creative-type work, when you do work that's creative in nature, you expect to getting paid for it. And if you want to keep get paid for doing creative work, you have to vigorously defend your IP and ownership rights.

I'm talking about a qualitative difference, not a quantitative one. Theft is theft. If I came over to your house and took a paperback book from you without your permission, that's theft. If I take your computer or your entire 40K collection, that's also theft.

One may carry more legal penalties, but neither is what I would consider acceptable behavior.

Let's not beat around the bush here...if you recast models, you're stealing from GW. May not seem like much, but the principle remains the same. I guess you can try to argue that certain kinds of theft are okay, when other kinds aren't, but to be honest, unless you're stealing to keep your family fed because you have absolutely no other options, I can't think of a whole lot of ethically defensible theft.

And let's continue not beat around the bush here...if you're stealing from GW, then you're stealing from all the individuals whose labor went into producing the game, sculpting the models, promoting the models, manufacturing the models, etc.

I'm a huge IP law hippie. I support shorter copyright terms, greatly expanded fair use protections, a reworking of the patent system, and weaker trademark laws. But I nevertheless hate the typical internet justifications for piracy that are popping up in this thread. Unless you beleive copyright terms should be shorter than they have ever been in the last two centuries, it's impossible to defend selling (or giving away) recasts of GW miniatures.

Perhaps I'm being overly simplistic (and if so, call me on it!) but I think that everyone who has thought about IP policy supports the existence of copyright protections lasting for at least a quarter century, meaning that virtually everything Games Workshop has ever made is entitled to protection. They've spent a lot of time and money devising models, paints, fluff, rules, etc, and it's unlikely that they would have been able to create such a rich game system if they had no legal protections.

Overly harsh or restrictive laws can be bad for society, but that doesn't mean the solution is to abolish law.

And, coming at the other side:

Centurian99 wrote:Yep, its a harsh word. Yep, I chose it deliberately. And I also consider unauthorized dubbing of videos, unauthorized downloading of MP3s etc., to be theft.

I'm talking about a qualitative difference, not a quantitative one. Theft is theft. If I came over to your house and took a paperback book from you without your permission, that's theft. If I take your computer or your entire 40K collection, that's also theft.

I strongly disagree with the use of the word "theft." We're talking about non-rivalrous goods here; you're not taking my paperback, but photocopying it and leaving me with the original. This is the heart of the difference between intellectual property and real property, and the language we use should reflect that distinction. I'll readily concede that commercial recasting is both illegal and immoral, but "theft" brings in a lot of real property analogies that I don't believe should be brought into the discussion. (Actually, I think the very term "intellectual property" creates a lot of bad analogies, but the term is common enough that it's a lot easier to accept it and move on.)

Centurian99 wrote:Let's not beat around the bush here...if you recast models, you're stealing from GW. May not seem like much, but the principle remains the same. I guess you can try to argue that certain kinds of theft are okay, when other kinds aren't, but to be honest, unless you're stealing to keep your family fed because you have absolutely no other options, I can't think of a whole lot of ethically defensible theft.

Well, to follow your metaphor, if you use cardboard counters to represent units (which is totally doable in Fantasy, and is not impossible in a 40k setting) you're also "stealing" revenue from GW. This illustrates the problem with that metaphor. It's not about giving GW a certain amount of money, it's about respecting their IP. I would love to play against a 40k army made entirely out of green stuff, but I would not be happy playing against a 40k army made out of suspiciously light Tyranids.

Centurian99 wrote:And let's continue not beat around the bush here...if you're stealing from GW, then you're stealing from all the individuals whose labor went into producing the game, sculpting the models, promoting the models, manufacturing the models, etc.

"Stealing" metaphor aside, I completely agree with you here. The "GW hobby" is a sort of community you form with Games Workshop and your fellow players. GW is actually a very liberal company with regards to their intelectual property; they not only allow you to mess with their IP but they actually encourage it, showcasing conversions, homemade rules and fluff, etc. I'm not going to go around condemning miniatures people cast to play with in their basements, but if they want to take that stuff out and bring it to a pick-up game at my store, I'm going to be upset.

If you want to get all Kantian, you can only support a practice if it could safely be engaged in by everyone. If everyone cast their own miniatures, GW would collpase, and I would never have a new IG Codex. That's why we need to respect IP law. :-)

Centurian99 wrote:

Trench-Raider wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:Gotta love all the people here that think theft is a good idea or even defensible.

"Theft" is a very harsh word.
I can't speak for everyone of course, but I regard non-comercial recasts (that is to say recasts done for personal use only, or those given away to others...in other words not sold for financial gain in any way) as a very minor offence that is akin to illegally dubbing a copy of a VHS tape in it's severity.
I'm sure I'm not alone.

Yep, its a harsh word. Yep, I chose it deliberately. And I also consider unauthorized dubbing of videos, unauthorized downloading of MP3s etc., to be theft. As someone who's done and continues to do creative-type work, when you do work that's creative in nature, you expect to getting paid for it. And if you want to keep get paid for doing creative work, you have to vigorously defend your IP and ownership rights.

I'm talking about a qualitative difference, not a quantitative one. Theft is theft. If I came over to your house and took a paperback book from you without your permission, that's theft. If I take your computer or your entire 40K collection, that's also theft.

One may carry more legal penalties, but neither is what I would consider acceptable behavior.

Let's not beat around the bush here...if you recast models, you're stealing from GW. May not seem like much, but the principle remains the same. I guess you can try to argue that certain kinds of theft are okay, when other kinds aren't, but to be honest, unless you're stealing to keep your family fed because you have absolutely no other options, I can't think of a whole lot of ethically defensible theft.

And let's continue not beat around the bush here...if you're stealing from GW, then you're stealing from all the individuals whose labor went into producing the game, sculpting the models, promoting the models, manufacturing the models, etc.

And who made you the judge of that? Get off your high horse and get a reality check.

In almost every civilized country there is a separation in the law between copyright crimes and theft/stealing. So no, unless you are sitting in the suprme court making a new ruling copyright crimes isnt theft, theft actually requires you to take something from someone.
The only thing thats similar is that both actions are illegal, but copyright crimes unless done on an industrial scale carries very low(if any punishment). Seeing someone spew out so blantant falsness really ticks me off.

GW is a toy company. There is no moral obligation on them to make their products available for ‘affordable’ prices.

It is self-serving to use the perceived high price of GW figures as an excuse to justify buying counterfeits. There are many cheaper alternatives from reputable companies. If you buy counterfeits, you are not only depriving GW of revenue, you also deprive the competing companies of revenue.

People should reserve their moral outrage for the high price of anti-retroviral drugs.

It's not just big companies like GW, but smaller ones too. GW might be able to absorb the costs of counterfeiters and be able to chase them up legally, but what of smaller munufacturers?

I was quite concerned to see that Hasslefree have had people ripping them off on eBay and actually selling their models for more than RRP! It takes trade away from them and it introduces poor quality versions of their models into the marketplace, a small company can do without the negative feedback on their products that could create.

Hasslefree link - http://forum-of-doom.com/index.php?topic=9276.0

I think I have a few recasts in my collection. Not because I was looking to buy recasts but because stuff was bought cheap and in bulk at wargames shows and bring and buy sections. It's a bit of lucky dip anyway. Also some of the much older GW figures can look a bit pulpy and are soft with lead. I think I have gathered a couple though because on further inspection the detail is poor and there's suggestion of two mould lines. But I can't be sure and I bought them in good faith - they are relatively rare and OOP meaning they aren't available at all from GW, so I will paint them up for my collection and would use them in a game if the need arose. I'm certainly not going to obliterate them, I have no intention of passing them on but now I have them they might as well be put to use instead of being discarded. Seems a fair approach to me.

must...not...troll...KK...too...easy...

Can I please just check the 'Godly' people on here stating that counterfeit models are unlawful, morally wrong and all that good stuff, are the same people who have NEVER listened to a burned CD recording, or back in day, a tape recording, or own any sort of mp3 file made from a CD they do not own, or ever been to Maccy D's for a Mc Poo? I just want to check there are no hypercrites here, because that is one thing that gets on my back.

If I make a squad of 10 men for my adeptus army, made from various GW parts and then make casts to produce them for my own army, is that wrong? GW don't make what I want. Is that the same as making your own mix CD, using songs from various albums you own?

I bought 100 Steel Legion troopers which I highly suspect were counterfeit saving around 75% on the GW price. From that, I've then spent around £2000 (Yes thats right) on GW models and Forgeworld models to supplement that particular army. The army has won painting awards used in tournaments and featured on GW's web site. Had I not bought the 100 troops, I would have never have spent the £2000 on other stuff to go with them. So GW made £2000 from me, rather than £0.

Custom made models, is that counterfit? Guy turns up at a tournament to play against me with his 'Vindicator' (Rhino with bottle top stuck to the front) and 'Whirlwind) (Rhino with small plastic pens stuck to the top). Are these now counterfeit models that should be smashed to bits?

A Games club chucks in and buys 1 copy of the Appoc books and forgeworld books (£50 to produce a book IS obscene) so that every member can use them for reference. Some people photocopy the relevent rules for their vehicles. Is this wrong. I buy a £50 Bombard Cannon, and then have to pay another £50 just to get the official rule book to use it! Don't think so. If the book was a sensible price, then most of my games club would have bought it, instead we have a rule book fund, and buy 1 copy of each for everyone to use. Is this the same as all the magazines in the Doctor's waiting room. "Opps, I didn't buy it, therefore I won't read it".

The guy who's doesn't use GW paints for his models, is that wrong?

The guys making cardboard vehicles (and there are plenty on this site) based on GW's vehicles, should they all be burned? Or should GW be burned when they base their design's off other peoples? 2nd Wave of Tryanids looked a lot like the Alien models. Or my own personal 3 grudges......

1) Guy from Forgeworld at GW Notts comes to our table asking about the spaced armour I'd made for my Chimera, thats very nice he says, mind if I take some pictures, no probs I say. 6 months later, near idetical armour is released from Foreworld. .....

2) Guy from GW Notts store, I really like your 1k Sons Termintors, how'd you make them, so I tell him. 4 months later, an article on the GW Web site from the guy in the shop showing off his 1k sons Terminators......

3) Or my personal favourite, come up to GW Notts, we'll photograpgh all your LoD army, get it in White Dwarf. So I did. How'd you make the LoD bikes, so I tell him, write to me how you did it, what parts you used, we'll put it in the article,so I did. 8 months later, nothing in WD, but in the collectors Space Marine edition, a LoD bike made by the guy who invited me up to GW with an article on how he made it! This was over 10 years ago.

GW is a hobby and people will copy their hobby (even GW do it - see examples above). People will also input to their hobby, the rules for the Warhound Titan I practically wrote for Forgeworld after hours of playtesting their original crap rules (Titan stomp, repairable weapons all from my rules I sent them) and I don't have any acknowledgement from them, other than a 'Thank you' note from one of the staff. If their stuff is being copied it means one of 2 things:

1. They have a good product.
2. Its too expensive.

If they lowered their prices, people would buy more of their product, and they would make more £££££. I'm not condoning or supporting counterfeit products, I am saying that GW do it when it suits them (albeit they change it enough for them to legally not be), and for some its a nessecity. And I'll put my money on everyone on this chat board in one shape or another owns something copied, be it music tape, CD, DVD, mp3, read someone elses paper etc etc.

There is a world of difference between a Counterfeit model, and the scratch builds and conversions you mentione.

GW make a Vindicator Tank. Making your own Vindicator tank, using GW rules in a GW game is making a Counterfeit model, as you are claiming its a Vindicator.

Harsh line I agree, but that's the letter of the law.

TheSecretSquig wrote:Can I please just check the 'Godly' people on here stating that counterfeit models are unlawful, morally wrong and all that good stuff, are the same people who have NEVER listened to a burned CD recording, or back in day, a tape recording, or own any sort of mp3 file made from a CD they do not own, or ever been to Maccy D's for a Mc Poo? I just want to check there are no hypercrites here, because that is one thing that gets on my back.

If I make a squad of 10 men for my adeptus army, made from various GW parts and then make casts to produce them for my own army, is that wrong? GW don't make what I want. Is that the same as making your own mix CD, using songs from various albums you own?

I bought 100 Steel Legion troopers which I highly suspect were counterfeit saving around 75% on the GW price. From that, I've then spent around £2000 (Yes thats right) on GW models and Forgeworld models to supplement that particular army. The army has won painting awards used in tournaments and featured on GW's web site. Had I not bought the 100 troops, I would have never have spent the £2000 on other stuff to go with them. So GW made £2000 from me, rather than £0.

Custom made models, is that counterfit? Guy turns up at a tournament to play against me with his 'Vindicator' (Rhino with bottle top stuck to the front) and 'Whirlwind) (Rhino with small plastic pens stuck to the top). Are these now counterfeit models that should be smashed to bits?

A Games club chucks in and buys 1 copy of the Appoc books and forgeworld books (£50 to produce a book IS obscene) so that every member can use them for reference. Some people photocopy the relevent rules for their vehicles. Is this wrong. I buy a £50 Bombard Cannon, and then have to pay another £50 just to get the official rule book to use it! Don't think so. If the book was a sensible price, then most of my games club would have bought it, instead we have a rule book fund, and buy 1 copy of each for everyone to use. Is this the same as all the magazines in the Doctor's waiting room. "Opps, I didn't buy it, therefore I won't read it".

The guy who's doesn't use GW paints for his models, is that wrong?

The guys making cardboard vehicles (and there are plenty on this site) based on GW's vehicles, should they all be burned? Or should GW be burned when they base their design's off other peoples? 2nd Wave of Tryanids looked a lot like the Alien models. Or my own personal 3 grudges......

1) Guy from Forgeworld at GW Notts comes to our table asking about the spaced armour I'd made for my Chimera, thats very nice he says, mind if I take some pictures, no probs I say. 6 months later, near idetical armour is released from Foreworld. .....

2) Guy from GW Notts store, I really like your 1k Sons Termintors, how'd you make them, so I tell him. 4 months later, an article on the GW Web site from the guy in the shop showing off his 1k sons Terminators......

3) Or my personal favourite, come up to GW Notts, we'll photograpgh all your LoD army, get it in White Dwarf. So I did. How'd you make the LoD bikes, so I tell him, write to me how you did it, what parts you used, we'll put it in the article,so I did. 8 months later, nothing in WD, but in the collectors Space Marine edition, a LoD bike made by the guy who invited me up to GW with an article on how he made it! This was over 10 years ago.

GW is a hobby and people will copy their hobby (even GW do it - see examples above). People will also input to their hobby, the rules for the Warhound Titan I practically wrote for Forgeworld after hours of playtesting their original crap rules (Titan stomp, repairable weapons all from my rules I sent them) and I don't have any acknowledgement from them, other than a 'Thank you' note from one of the staff. If their stuff is being copied it means one of 2 things:

1. They have a good product.
2. Its too expensive.

If they lowered their prices, people would buy more of their product, and they would make more £££££. I'm not condoning or supporting counterfeit products, I am saying that GW do it when it suits them (albeit they change it enough for them to legally not be), and for some its a nessecity. And I'll put my money on everyone on this chat board in one shape or another owns something copied, be it music tape, CD, DVD, mp3, read someone elses paper etc etc.

This is called Sophism.

You are drawing a fine line and then crossing it with justification. " I only shot the guy, I didn't kill him..." "I only copied One page, NOT the whole book."

Its a difference between using the stuff yourself for playing the game and copying the stuff blatantly and selling it, thereby making profit off of someone else’s work, while you didn't take any time to make your own, and go through the creative process.
You copied it. You sold it; you made a profit off of someone else’s work.

Your difference is that “It’s justified to copy materials and use them..." falls on the face after you look at How many people will be affected by results.
Look at the kid that was mentioned earlier. The Redshirt dimed him out based on his models and pretty much stated that he was willing to do the kid violence because of his models.

Break the kids stuff, based on his opinion that the kid’s army was counterfeit. Now we see that YOU have an Adepticus Army? Then you better not take it to that shop. Heaven forbid that you use a little CREATIVITY and come up with your own concept.

There is a fine line between using your army, modifying it, and making your models then there is to COPYWRITE INFRINGEMENT.
The line being that the counterfeiter is making profit off of someone else’s labor. Just kit bashing and making the models for your own playing is using the models as intended.
FOR YOUR OWN PLAYING is the intent. YOU created the property, then you did the hard work, used YOUR idea, and did everything you needed to make your dream happen, then to see some cat come behind you and crap all over it making profits that should go to you is a little disheartening, but GW, with their !@#$ed business practice of paying their business staff the outrageous profits, and then crapping on the artist is pretty much the other side of the extreme.

The issue I have with defending GW is that THEY INTENTIONALLY SCREW EVERYONE, and don't care who knows it.
Those petty profits that they so called claim to get go to an army of ambulance chasers that would just as soon kill you and rape your corpse then look at you.

I have no love for GW. BUT Andy Chambers, Mike McVeigh, Tim Prow, etc. have gotten it in the fourth point of contact allot harder then Joe, the guy that copies a couple of genestealers then sold them to some little kid, only to see the kid get hosed and beat up by his local redshirt because he was stupid, and didn't know what he bought on E bay.
These are examples of people who have worked for the Evil Empire and been ground under its heel.

GW treats its talent like crap. I feel more for these people and the rest of the creative guys, the painters, and the artists etc. then I do for the souless corporate lackey types like HE WHO WON'T BE NAMED, and his neophytes.

Counterfiting is ripping off the artist, as much as underpaying him and selling the works for three times the price.

Dave47 wrote:
I strongly disagree with the use of the word "theft." We're talking about non-rivalrous goods here; you're not taking my paperback, but photocopying it and leaving me with the original. This is the heart of the difference between intellectual property and real property, and the language we use should reflect that distinction. I'll readily concede that commercial recasting is both illegal and immoral, but "theft" brings in a lot of real property analogies that I don't believe should be brought into the discussion. (Actually, I think the very term "intellectual property" creates a lot of bad analogies, but the term is common enough that it's a lot easier to accept it and move on.)

I'd have to disagree here. There's qualitatively no difference in theft of IP or theft of some physical object, if you believe that any kind of creative work should remain under the control of its creator, or from another angle, if creative work has any sort of value.

Dave47 wrote:
If you want to get all Kantian, you can only support a practice if it could safely be engaged in by everyone. If everyone cast their own miniatures, GW would collpase, and I would never have a new IG Codex. That's why we need to respect IP law. :-)

QFT

Kallbrand wrote:
And who made you the judge of that? Get off your high horse and get a reality check.

Being a rational human being who's previously done work (and hopes to do more work in the future and continue making a living off it) in realms covered by IP. Counterfeiting miniatures is a crime because it violates GW's IP to the miniatures being copied, and is a direct theft of GW's right to control its IP.

Kallbrand wrote:
The only thing thats similar is that both actions are illegal, but copyright crimes unless done on an industrial scale carries very low(if any punishment). Seeing someone spew out so blantant falsness really ticks me off.

And seeing people advocate or justify actions that essentially steal from people who make a living doing creative work ticks me off. Regardless, the scale here is irrelevant...as I said before, I'm talking qualitative, not quantitative.

Kilkrazy wrote:GW is a toy company. There is no moral obligation on them to make their products available for ‘affordable’ prices.

QFT

TheSecretSquig wrote:Can I please just check the 'Godly' people on here stating that counterfeit models are unlawful, morally wrong and all that good stuff, are the same people who have NEVER listened to a burned CD recording, or back in day, a tape recording, or own any sort of mp3 file made from a CD they do not own, or ever been to Maccy D's for a Mc Poo? I just want to check there are no hypercrites here, because that is one thing that gets on my back.

So your argument is that if you've ever done something wrong, you are excused from the responsibility to avoid doing wrong in the future, correct?

TheSecretSquig wrote:
A Games club chucks in and buys 1 copy of the Appoc books and forgeworld books (£50 to produce a book IS obscene) so that every member can use them for reference. Some people photocopy the relevent rules for their vehicles. Is this wrong.

Fair Use is a ridiculously loose topic, and I'm in no way qualified to make a legal judgement on that, but in general, making photocopies of copywritten materials for distribution is probably illegal. Having a club copy that people in the club reference as needed probably isn't.

TheSecretSquig wrote:
The guys making cardboard vehicles (and there are plenty on this site) based on GW's vehicles, should they all be burned? Or should GW be burned when they base their design's off other peoples? 2nd Wave of Tryanids looked a lot like the Alien models. Or my own personal 3 grudges......

1) Guy from Forgeworld at GW Notts comes to our table asking about the spaced armour I'd made for my Chimera, thats very nice he says, mind if I take some pictures, no probs I say. 6 months later, near idetical armour is released from Foreworld. .....

2) Guy from GW Notts store, I really like your 1k Sons Termintors, how'd you make them, so I tell him. 4 months later, an article on the GW Web site from the guy in the shop showing off his 1k sons Terminators......

3) Or my personal favourite, come up to GW Notts, we'll photograpgh all your LoD army, get it in White Dwarf. So I did. How'd you make the LoD bikes, so I tell him, write to me how you did it, what parts you used, we'll put it in the article,so I did. 8 months later, nothing in WD, but in the collectors Space Marine edition, a LoD bike made by the guy who invited me up to GW with an article on how he made it! This was over 10 years ago.

GW is a hobby and people will copy their hobby (even GW do it - see examples above). People will also input to their hobby, the rules for the Warhound Titan I practically wrote for Forgeworld after hours of playtesting their original crap rules (Titan stomp, repairable weapons all from my rules I sent them) and I don't have any acknowledgement from them, other than a 'Thank you' note from one of the staff.

Welcome to the wonderful world of creative work, where everyone vigorously protects the expression of their ideas, because funny enough, the ideas themselves are totally worthless.

TheSecretSquig wrote:
If their stuff is being copied it means one of 2 things:

1. They have a good product.
2. Its too expensive.

Don't forget:
3. Some people don't care if they're stealing from big bad GW.

Counterfiting is ripping off the artist, as much as underpaying him and selling the works for three times the price.

I wasn't aware that the illustrators and sculptors made their money from royalties of each model of theirs sold.

Grot 6 wrote:
GW treats its talent like crap. I feel more for these people and the rest of the creative guys, the painters, and the artists etc. then I do for the souless corporate lackey types like HE WHO WON'T BE NAMED, and his neophytes.

Counterfiting is ripping off the artist, as much as underpaying him and selling the works for three times the price.

GW's not the only one, and is by no means the most egregious in its treatment of creative personnel...

Heck, I've seen and heard of much, much, much, worse.

Then again, I've got friends who work in Hollywood.

ultramarine1 wrote:

Guess what I got for "Valentine's day".

What type of figure was it a fake of?

Not only that, who was the person who made this fake?

At least we can have a proper debate here on this.

Idea's unfortunately, are not copyright, your right, and my 3 examples above are proof of this, where GW have stolen my ideas. Whilst I myself would never mass produce something ilegally, nor would I go out my way to find it, if its offered to me and I personally want it and it saves me ££££, I'll buy it. For personal use, I wouldn't then try to sell it on as original.

GW themselves steal everyone's ideas (See 3 examples above), and take ideas from History. Why are there 18 Founding Space Marine Chapters? Because their structure was originally (I'm taking +20 yrs ago) based on the Roman Legion's structure, who had 18 Legions (That's why there are 2 deleted from records, to make 18). Rules changes are based on 1000's of inputs from players, with no acknowedgement to those people.

I bought some KO Models, I knew they were KO, but they are for me, and I would not sell them on. These same KO models were of good enough quality for GW to give me a painting award, and photograph the army for use on their web site.

10yrs ago I did a Space Marine Company of Lotd, costing £18 for 10 Man Squad. That same squad today from GW costs £110! An escalation year on year of almost 200%. The average is 4.5%. Some fair and reasonable pricing from GW there, ripe for KO's.

TheSecretSquig wrote:"I only copied One page, NOT the whole book."

Well, apparently under the 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act I can photocopy up to 5% of a book for personal and non-commercial use, so it's not that clear cut.

I heard of a plastics engineer that made his own molds for IG tanks. They looked like S@#$ though from what I understand.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:"I only copied One page, NOT the whole book."

Well, apparently under the 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act I can photocopy up to 5% of a book for personal and non-commercial use, so it's not that clear cut.

"Fair Use" absolutely essential in education when you only want people to read two pages of a book and not be required to purchase the entire book.

once GW makes a model, making a scratchbuilt that looks like GW's is stealing. You are coping their design thus stealing their IP. The guy scratch building 5 warhounds is the same as the guy copying 200 sisters figures.

a copy is a copy. some methods just produce better copies

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
No, I just don't see why some little scrote should benefit from anothers hard work.

If someone wants more of a particularly rare model, for example, Trenchraider and his Space Slaan, there is the morally netural approach of making your mold, and melting down existing GW models. GW get their cut, you get the models you are after.

The difference between downloads and knockoffs, is that downloads, whilst still not right, aren't lining *anyones* pockets.

I don't get the morally neutral approach here. So, is it OK to erase a Magic Card and reprint it as a Mox Ruby? Buy a Topps basball card and reprint it as a Babe Ruth rookie? Just because you paid the source company for material doesn't make it more moral or less amoral...

I'm not actually trying to be sarcastic but I can't find a way to word this without sounding like I'm flaming. I need more coffee.

That being said, GW really needs to understand that folks (at least in my area) have given up buying the models and just proxy everything due to costs. There is at least one store where the tourney organizer is fine with non-GW models as long as they fit. Other than the oh-so-important official tour circuit, once folks make the mental shift away from thinking they need official models to play the game, the genie will be out of the bottle. Hell, at some stores it already is. Kids using bloody coins as proxy models week after week.

Dammit, I'm ranting on low blood-caffeine levels.

to be blunt about the whole thing:

you can see GW charge alot for thier models, its a case of cant afford? dont play.

then someone thinks they can make some quick money by re-casting GW models and selling them at a discount.

GW do charge alot, but they also sculpt and mould the models, someone who is re-casting them simply makes a mould, GW's time and effort went into making each model, where as some little bastard has spent an hour or 2 casting them for a quick proffit.

scratch builds are not a direct copy of a model, neither are self sculpted models, so dont bring those into it.

the re-cast models are a direct copy intended to not only make a quick proffit, but to also fool people into buying what they think are GW products.


please, if you are offended by any of this, then dont waste either of our time with the matter, i wont be changing my views on this.

so, if you want to take offence and be TFG, go feth yourself

i think that was pretty short and sweet while going straight to the point

TheSecretSquig wrote:GW make a Vindicator Tank. Making your own Vindicator tank, using GW rules in a GW game is making a Counterfeit model, as you are claiming its a Vindicator.

Harsh line I agree, but that's the letter of the law.

No, it's a conversion or a scratch build. Both legal, both actively encouraged by GW.

Now, making a copy of the Vindicator sprue, casting it up, and then selling it on to unsuspecting people as the real deal, all of that is a no no.

I have access to a spin caster.
I still don't see the difference between making a plasticard nearly exact copy of a warhound and spinning out 200 sisters. neither i would sell and both infringe on GW's IP

skkiper, you have acess to a spin caster as you have stated, so do you cast your own models?

making a scratch build is not a copy towards GW, they love to see people making things like that.
however, they do not like to see people casting and selling thier models for a gain.

Scratch-building an exact duplicate still means you are not paying a dime to GW. I fail to see how there is much of a difference between that and making a mold+cast except for the amount of time (not money, resin molds are p expensive) required.

Is it the effort that you put in that gives it greater "value" for it? What if you mess up a bunch of molds and it requires the exact same or more effort, time, and money to create your master cast for a difficult piece?

ok, so how many people saying its fine to cast have actually casted stuff before (GW models that is) please be honest about this


stone, they are not making an exact copy of the models, they are making thier own one through time, effort and boredom
re-casting does take time and effort i guess, but, its still not making your own model, you just making an exact copy of a GW model to either sell, or save money on.

if you need to save money then make your own models through scratch building / kitbashing.

no I have not made any models yet. The time/work involved with casting is more expensive then buying the GW figs.
200 sisters are around $500-$600
I could just go to work on a saturday and bring home more.
scratchbuilding a copy of a model and selling it is the same as casting one and selling it.
since GW is "cool" with scratchbuilding copies for personal use, they then by befault are cool with somebody making copies of their models for personal use.
there is no legal difference between scratchbuilding a copy and casting a copy. a copy is a copy.

if you started scratchbuilding titans on an assembly line and started selling them. GW would shut you down. just as they shut down casters.

I have gotten recasted models from e-bay and the quality was good. If I knew they were fakes i would not have purchased.

These are similar:

Scratch-build a titan
Build a warboss from about 50% ork bitz and using other parts (plasticard, plasti-tubing, green-stuff, etc.) as necessary
Sculpt your own minis from a 'skeleton' and green stuff

The OP is NOT talking about someone sculpting their own Sisters, IG, Orks, or Marines.

The OP is talking about taking a mini from GW (or any gaming company), and 'reverse engineering' a mold and casting them.

There is a big difference between scratch-building and recasting. Using plasticard to 'scratch-build' a Land Raider that looks just like the GW LR is pretty shaky (I would guess it's illegal since it's still infringing on their IP). Scratch building a tank that is the same basic size and shape as a land raider, but looks different - that's legal, but may not be allowed in a tourney (by most RAW, it shouldn't be, the tourney organizer would probably let someone do it if the scratch build was 'cool' enough).

so the thought has crossed your mind since you seem to have thought about it.
which would explain why you defend it.

then why think about casting when you can earn the moey to buy the models?
only reason for that i can think of would be to sell on at a proffit.

can the dumb really get even dumber?
a scratch build lives up to its name for feth sake!
it is not the same product as GW produces.
a re-cast is.

no skkipper, a copy isnt a copy as you say, its a lame way of trying to defend something which you know is wrong.

please, show me an incident where this has been the case.


so now you go against what you 1st said?
if you wouldnt buy a copy then you know its wrong, and you have just contradicted what you say.

Hey secret squig, just a question since i know you are EBAY painter / seller.

This is just an example so dont say it sucks etc etc!

Say one day someone creates a machine that can scan / duplicate color on a miniature. Buys your painted miniature, and proceeded to clone the painted mini you sold , and sell the 1000s of minis he done that way for $100 each.

How does that make you feel?


Or another example. I go on and buy golden demon awarded minis for $400 . Use the machine, and produce it to resell for $100
"so everyone can enjoy the nice paint without the high price"

how do you think it makes the GD painters feel?

Skkipper and I are pretty much in agreement here. What exactly is the difference then? A copy is a copy is a copy.

I haven't done resin casting but I have had to make casts for one of my industrial engi classes. Resin casting is probably a lot easier than one-time-use sand casting, but I'm sure the air bubbles present make it a lot more difficult than working with molten lead for the casts themselves.

ok, so how many people saying its fine to cast have actually casted stuff before (GW models that is) please be honest about this

Ah. Perhaps this can be done at the same time those who vehemently oppose recasting declare that they have never once copied a music track for personal use.


edit:

then why think about casting when you can earn the moey to buy the models?
only reason for that i can think of would be to sell on at a proffit.

can the dumb really get even dumber?
a scratch build lives up to its name for feth sake!
it is not the same product as GW produces.
a re-cast is.

no skkipper, a copy isnt a copy as you say, its a lame way of trying to defend something which you know is wrong.

Guilty until proven innocent, is it? Oh wait, I think it's similar to, "If you have nothing to hide then why would you worry about the police searching/etc. you?"

stone, if i photocopied the mona lisa painting and tried to sell it as the real thing i would be in deep gak.

if i painted my own one its fine.

key part here is copyright and trying to sell things as your own, when they are someone elses work.


look at any scratch build being sold on ebay, they state its a scratch build and not the real thing.

people re-casting models sell them as the origional product, when really they are a copy.

why consider it?
well there are models you just can't buy anymore in quanities to build an army out of.
making recasts for yourself is the same as scratchbuild copies.
try to sell scratchbuilt titans as a business GW will shut you down. why? because the scratchbuilt is infringing their IP. am i wrong. Several companies have been shut down for selling "titans" though they were scratchbuilt

skkipper wrote:why consider it?
well there are models you just can't buy anymore in quanities to build an army out of.
making recasts for yourself is the same as scratchbuild copies.
try to sell scratchbuilt titans as a business GW will shut you down. why? because the scratchbuilt is infringing their IP. am i wrong. Several companies have been shut down for selling "titans" though they were scratchbuilt

Recast is nothing like scratchbuild / original sculpts.
Knowing how to recast is one thing, but knowing how to sculpt from balls of green stuff?
without the need to come up with original design sand such?

way different.

@JD: You are the one assuming that all recasts are meant to be sold and that those of us arguing for it are wholly doing so for that reason. That may be the OP's subject but I thought there were two concurrent topics: the original OP's subject and the "morality" of recasting for the sake of personal use.

Honest answer here is with GW it doesn't bother me so much, but with a company like Avatar of War, it is really bad as it could well drive them out of business. The smaller alternative companies are more likely to be badly hurt by this. Also theres a huge difference between reselling something and stuff for your own use.

skkipper wrote:no I have not made any models yet. The time/work involved with casting is more expensive then buying the GW figs.
200 sisters are around $500-$600
I could just go to work on a saturday and bring home more.
scratchbuilding a copy of a model and selling it is the same as casting one and selling it.
since GW is "cool" with scratchbuilding copies for personal use, they then by befault are cool with somebody making copies of their models for personal use.
there is no legal difference between scratchbuilding a copy and casting a copy. a copy is a copy.

...

Actually there is a difference between the two activities.

As a copyholder, GW are entitled to grant exceptions to their copyrights. They are fully entitled to allow you to make a scratchbuild copy out of greenstuff, which is so time-consuming that no-one would bother, while denying you the right to make a cast copy, which is relatively easy and enables you to produce lots of copies once your mould is done.

if I started selling squads of space marines I sculpted on e-bay. GW would shut me down.

why consider it?
well there are models you just can't buy anymore in quanities to build an army out of.
making recasts for yourself is the same as scratchbuild copies.
try to sell scratchbuilt titans as a business GW will shut you down. why? because the scratchbuilt is infringing their IP. am i wrong. Several companies have been shut down for selling "titans" though they were scratchbuilt

yes, and them being hard to find is called tough luck.
i plan on making a stealer cult soon, i wont be re-casting everything, i will be doing what everyone else does and buy them (mainly from ebay)
that does not justify a reason to break C.

yes, but this is about basic models, you added titans into the discussion.
they are very different from casting basic GW models.


and once again, scratch builds and re-casts are nothing alike, one if a close design made from scratch, re-casting is stealing a models design.


so which is it?
you defend re-casting models.
but you wouldnt buy a re-cast model.

skkipper wrote:why consider it?
well there are models you just can't buy anymore in quanities to build an army out of.
making recasts for yourself is the same as scratchbuild copies.
try to sell scratchbuilt titans as a business GW will shut you down. why? because the scratchbuilt is infringing their IP. am i wrong. Several companies have been shut down for selling "titans" though they were scratchbuilt

And there is the rub.

The companies were shutdown for selling knock off Titans. Note the word SELLING.

Now, if GW have ever sold something, whether it is still available or not is largely immaterial. The real deal is out there. If you cannot afford it, or cannot find it, you can convert it up or scratch build it. At this point, as long as you have not cast up any part from an existing GW model, you have created your own work of art. The IP there is yours.

But, if one simply recasts, whether for profit or purely private use, you have infringed on GW's copyright. Hence my suggestion of the morally netural approach of buying GW models, and melting them down to pour into your desired mold. You get the model you were after, GW still get their money. It's still illegal, but if push came to shove, and assuming one could prove it, I don't see legal things going any further.

Designing and sculpting or converting your own model is 100% Legal however. Why can't you see this, or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

Alright lets go on to topic of personal use.

The purpose of "personal use" to recast is masking the simple fact of " but but but GW is soooooo expensive~ *whine" ( unless you are recasting your OWN designs )
but if you are recasting GW designs then ^

What is GW? its a stupid hobby, not a necessity . Too expensive? dont get into it , simple as that.

To try to justify recasting minis because of price issues,
seriousely how sad is that.

And having a store copy of rule book for everyone to handle / share publicly is NOT the same as say distributing the photocopies to every so they dont need an original rule book to own.
Its just a convenience so everyone dont have to drag and carry a book to store they play at.
But this is done assuming everyone already have an existing copy at home.

skkipper, if you sold them as scratch built space marines then the chances are it would be fine, if you made them yourself with GS or another agent then there shouldnt be a problem.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Designing and sculpting or converting your own model is 100% Legal however. Why can't you see this, or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

this is not true. if you add GW symbols or other trademarked items to your scratchbuild you are infringing on GW's IP. if you scratchbuild a model from greenstuff then add a blood angels symbol to its shoulder pad, you can not sell them

You guys all should know and remember "
http://www.sciborminiatures.com/ right?

Now he is above all of you recasters. He even sculpted
what he started with then recasted to sale.

He is still taken down. why? well think about it yourself.

Centurian99 wrote:

I'm talking about a qualitative difference, not a quantitative one. Theft is theft. If I came over to your house and took a paperback book from you without your permission, that's theft. If I take your computer or your entire 40K collection, that's also theft.

We're talking about apples and oranges here. If you come over to my house and take my paperback book and copy all the words in it onto notepaper that you take with you, you haven't stolen my book. If you take a picture of my 40k collection, that's not stealing my 40k collection. If you see my 40k collection and you make your own copies of it, that's not stealing other.

STEALING requires that you deprive someone of what was theirs. I think music downloads and what the RIAA has done (and the beating that they are suffering in court now) is hilarious. Downloading an mp3 isn't stealing. There's an argument for copyright infringement, but it is NOT stealing. You're not depriving someone of their copy of the music anymore than you would be stealing to go into an art museum and take a picture of a painting.

You're familiar with generics right? Providing the same or a similar product for less money? If someone sees my squad of Stormboyz and says, "OMG...you paid $100 for 20 plastic toyz?!?" and then goes out and makes similar or identical models that don't say Games Workshop on them, that's competition. If they turn around and sell their competing product to potential gamers as "generic ork toys" or something, who then use them in Warhammer 40k or another game...that's competition.

If they put the Games Workshop tag on it, that's trouble. But if you think you can make a competing product to someone else, and do so cheaper without infringing on Games Workshop's copyrights, that's good business. You can make a model that looks like Ghazghkull Thraka and call him Orky McOrk.

Again - its neither my business nor anyone else here how GW pursues its patents / copyrights, nor does it matter where the person across the table from me got their models. I'm not trying to have a competition of who has designer made army men, I'm trying to play a game and have fun.

which is why you build models for personal use rather than to sell

so scratch building a whole army is fine.


re-casting it is a direct copy of it, so no.

skkipper wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Designing and sculpting or converting your own model is 100% Legal however. Why can't you see this, or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

this is not true. if you add GW symbols or other trademarked items to your scratchbuild you are infringing on GW's IP. if you scratchbuild a model from greenstuff then add a blood angels symbol to its shoulder pad, you can not sell them

Why on earth would adding GW symbol to scratch builds used in warhammer game settings be infringing?

from scibor minatures:

Scibor Monstrous Miniatures company manufactures miniatures and bases for different kinds of war games, role playing games as well as for collectors
We also take painting and sculpting commissions. Moreover we take commissions for sculpting miniatures patterns for a production. We don not accept any commissions for conversions or custom sculpts based on Games Workshop Ltd. IP rights

Dashofpepper wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

I'm talking about a qualitative difference, not a quantitative one. Theft is theft. If I came over to your house and took a paperback book from you without your permission, that's theft. If I take your computer or your entire 40K collection, that's also theft.

We're talking about apples and oranges here. If you come over to my house and take my paperback book and copy all the words in it onto notepaper that you take with you, you haven't stolen my book. If you take a picture of my 40k collection, that's not stealing my 40k collection. If you see my 40k collection and you make your own copies of it, that's not stealing other.

STEALING requires that you deprive someone of what was theirs. I think music downloads and what the RIAA has done (and the beating that they are suffering in court now) is hilarious. Downloading an mp3 isn't stealing. There's an argument for copyright infringement, but it is NOT stealing. You're not depriving someone of their copy of the music anymore than you would be stealing to go into an art museum and take a picture of a painting.

You're familiar with generics right? Providing the same or a similar product for less money? If someone sees my squad of Stormboyz and says, "OMG...you paid $100 for 20 plastic toyz?!?" and then goes out and makes similar or identical models that don't say Games Workshop on them, that's competition. If they turn around and sell their competing product to potential gamers as "generic ork toys" or something, who then use them in Warhammer 40k or another game...that's competition.

If they put the Games Workshop tag on it, that's trouble. But if you think you can make a competing product to someone else, and do so cheaper without infringing on Games Workshop's copyrights, that's good business. You can make a model that looks like Ghazghkull Thraka and call him Orky McOrk.

Again - its neither my business nor anyone else here how GW pursues its patents / copyrights, nor does it matter where the person across the table from me got their models. I'm not trying to have a competition of who has designer made army men, I'm trying to play a game and have fun.

Stealing count as depriving something that belongs to others right?
You know, for someone as educated ( compared to my awful english and generally considered stupid in this forum )
i can atleast tell you this.

What did we steal by counterfeiting? You steal the artist's time that designed the miniature , and sculpted the miniature.
You stole something that GW has built and have reputations up from .

Everything has a value, you just arnt acknowledging them , or maybe you are turning a blind eye on it. I dont know.

skkipper wrote:from scibor minatures:

Scibor Monstrous Miniatures company manufactures miniatures and bases for different kinds of war games, role playing games as well as for collectors
We also take painting and sculpting commissions. Moreover we take commissions for sculpting miniatures patterns for a production. We don not accept any commissions for conversions or custom sculpts based on Games Workshop Ltd. IP rights

EXACTLY and what made you think scribor end up in this state not able to touch GW items?

you do know in the past, they make the BEST space marine lines right? GW will never have that type of
quality done any time soon.

LunaHound wrote:
Alright lets go on to topic of personal use.

The purpose of "personal use" to recast is masking the simple fact of " but but but GW is soooooo expensive~ *whine" ( unless you are recasting your OWN designs )
but if you are recasting GW designs then ^

What is GW? its a stupid hobby, not a necessity . Too expensive? dont get into it , simple as that.

To try to justify recasting minis because of price issues,
seriousely how sad is that.

And having a store copy of rule book for everyone to handle / share publicly is NOT the same as say distributing the photocopies to every so they dont need an original rule book to own.
Its just a convenience so everyone dont have to drag and carry a book to store they play at.
But this is done assuming everyone already have an existing copy at home.

Oh man you sure showed them! Little kids who likes the game but can't afford it? GTFO LITTLE KID GO PLAY YOUR CHEAPER PLAYSTATIONS! We warhams players are a fine, cultured, and most of all exclusive lot. We stroke our noble neckbeards, dusting our cheeto-incrused fingers before sipping Mountain Dew from a fine glass. We look down upon the lesser nerds who simply cannot afford our fine hobby of playing with toy soldiers.

I hope you pay full price and not buy from internet discounters.

stonefox wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
Alright lets go on to topic of personal use.

The purpose of "personal use" to recast is masking the simple fact of " but but but GW is soooooo expensive~ *whine" ( unless you are recasting your OWN designs )
but if you are recasting GW designs then ^

What is GW? its a stupid hobby, not a necessity . Too expensive? dont get into it , simple as that.

To try to justify recasting minis because of price issues,
seriousely how sad is that.

And having a store copy of rule book for everyone to handle / share publicly is NOT the same as say distributing the photocopies to every so they dont need an original rule book to own.
Its just a convenience so everyone dont have to drag and carry a book to store they play at.
But this is done assuming everyone already have an existing copy at home.

Oh man you sure showed them! Little kids who likes the game but can't afford it? GTFO LITTLE KID GO PLAY YOUR CHEAPER PLAYSTATIONS! We warhams players are a fine, cultured, and most of all exclusive lot. We stroke our noble neckbeards, dusting our cheeto-incrused fingers before sipping Mountain Dew from a fine glass. We look down upon the lesser nerds who simply cannot afford our fine hobby of playing with toy soldiers.

Wow, i cant believe what im reading. But you know what? If i cant afford the miniature and i must play , i 'll use shoe box for tanks
i'll use cotton balls for my units.

Ew, i'll even use piece of paper with the units writte on it ( easier done for fantasy battles)

I dont look down on people that cant afford to play. I look down on excuses for example, yours.

stone, are you allways this much of an idiot?
luna said nothing like that.
your now twisting it into your own wording.


and it is pretty bloody simple, if you cant afford something, then you dont buy it!


i cant afford a ferrari!
but i dont whine and moan about it, i get on with life.

In legal terminology, stealing and theft are deprivation of physical property.

Copyright violation is not theft, it is a civil offence. That doesn't make it right.

ok, once again since you ignored it:


what would happen if i photocopied the mona lisa painting and tried to sell it as the origional product?

what would happen if i painted my own pic of the mona lisa then sold it as my own work?

Kilkrazy wrote:In legal terminology, stealing and theft are deprivation of physical property.

Copyright violation is not theft, it is a civil offence. That doesn't make it right.

Thank you!
like i said im stupid! I dont know the legal terms and such,
but i know right from wrong!

Dashofpepper wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

I'm talking about a qualitative difference, not a quantitative one. Theft is theft. If I came over to your house and took a paperback book from you without your permission, that's theft. If I take your computer or your entire 40K collection, that's also theft.

We're talking about apples and oranges here. If you come over to my house and take my paperback book and copy all the words in it onto notepaper that you take with you, you haven't stolen my book. If you take a picture of my 40k collection, that's not stealing my 40k collection. If you see my 40k collection and you make your own copies of it, that's not stealing other.

STEALING requires that you deprive someone of what was theirs. I think music downloads and what the RIAA has done (and the beating that they are suffering in court now) is hilarious. Downloading an mp3 isn't stealing. There's an argument for copyright infringement, but it is NOT stealing. You're not depriving someone of their copy of the music anymore than you would be stealing to go into an art museum and take a picture of a painting.

You're familiar with generics right? Providing the same or a similar product for less money? If someone sees my squad of Stormboyz and says, "OMG...you paid $100 for 20 plastic toyz?!?" and then goes out and makes similar or identical models that don't say Games Workshop on them, that's competition. If they turn around and sell their competing product to potential gamers as "generic ork toys" or something, who then use them in Warhammer 40k or another game...that's competition.

If they put the Games Workshop tag on it, that's trouble. But if you think you can make a competing product to someone else, and do so cheaper without infringing on Games Workshop's copyrights, that's good business. You can make a model that looks like Ghazghkull Thraka and call him Orky McOrk.

Again - its neither my business nor anyone else here how GW pursues its patents / copyrights, nor does it matter where the person across the table from me got their models. I'm not trying to have a competition of who has designer made army men, I'm trying to play a game and have fun.

Generics are drugs or other inventions which have run out of their patent lifetime. Once a patent has expired, it is completely legal to copy the invention in the patent. Hence you can buy Aspirin made by Bayer (who invented it in about 1896) or generic Aspirin which is much cheaper.

Patents are a different form of intellectual property to copyrighted works.

You can't make a model that looks like Ghazghkrull Thraka and sell him in legal competition with GW unless you make enough changes to the design of your model that it no longer counts as a derivative work.

JD21290 wrote:ok, once again since you ignored it:


what would happen if i photocopied the mona lisa painting and tried to sell it as the origional product?

what would happen if i painted my own pic of the mona lisa then sold it as my own work?

Or the example i gave earlier people in this hobby can relate do.

What if i bought golden demon winning miniature and use paint duplicating machine
to make 1000s of copies to resell for $100

instead of the original for $500?
Am i justified? because im bringing Nicely painted stuff for everyone
when normally have 0 way ot accessing it?

If I build my squat imperial guard army. I will be casting a lot guys. do i feel bad about it? nope. would I buy recasts from somebody else? nope.

its pretty simple:


cant afford it? dont play it.

cant find enough of the models you need? scratch build or keep looking.

skkipper wrote:If I build my squat imperial guard army. I will be casting a lot guys. do i feel bad about it? nope. would I buy recasts from somebody else? nope.

And when you play in public, would you be ok with letting everyone know they are recasts?

If I build my squat imperial guard army. I will be casting a lot guys. do i feel bad about it? nope. would I buy recasts from somebody else? nope.

so you will be casting products, hence your defence towards the re-casting.

so you buy a few models and re-cast them to save money? that would be breaking the law to start with.
your making an exact model based on someone elses work rather than your own.

if your building a squat army, keep looking on ebay like everyone else does.


however, use WHFB dwarf and convert them, that is fine (and should be bloody cheap)

LunaHound wrote:

skkipper wrote:If I build my squat imperial guard army. I will be casting a lot guys. do i feel bad about it? nope. would I buy recasts from somebody else? nope.

And when you play in public, would you be ok with letting everyone know they are recasts?

not everyone. it's kind of like letting everyone know you have a concealed weapons permit and that you are carring. it could only lead to grief.

and it would only lead to grief, why?

JD21290 wrote:stone, are you allways this much of an idiot?

If it serves a funny purpose, yes. I got 2 responses for that one.


edit: I'm loving the leading questions and statements. This is hilarious.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, and doing my best to discourage elitism.

I do NOT approve or endorse infringing on GW's products. If you make a counterfeit model and stamp GW on it and try passing it off on e-bay like something you're not going to use anymore, you need to die horribly in a fire.

However, if someone has counterfeit models, or are proxying models, and they show up for a game....and you subsequently snub them for not having pockets as deep as yours, you also need to die horribly in a fire. You might justify it in other means; that they're not supporting the hobby, or that they're not playing in the spirit of the game, or that they don't have as much personal vestment in the hobby, but it results in the same: an elitist attitude that you're more worthy than others.

I don't care about counterfeiting models, or what other people do for their enjoyment. I'm not that elitist. If you want to bring counterfeited pseudo space marines to the table that were made by James Kirkshop and cost half as much as the models made by Games Workshop, good for you. I'm going to have fun either way.

stone, so you simply do it to draw attention to yourself?
grow up.

JD21290 wrote:and it would only lead to grief, why?

you just don't know how some people will react.

James Kirkshop

I would buy clothing designed by a man with such a name.


edit:

stone, so you simply do it to draw attention to yourself?
grow up.

and why would they react to it skkipper?
if theres nothing wrong with it then why not let people know you have an army of re-casted GW models?

LunaHound wrote:Hey secret squig, just a question since i know you are EBAY painter / seller.

This is just an example so dont say it sucks etc etc!

Say one day someone creates a machine that can scan / duplicate color on a miniature. Buys your painted miniature, and proceeded to clone the painted mini you sold , and sell the 1000s of minis he done that way for $100 each.

How does that make you feel?


Or another example. I go on and buy golden demon awarded minis for $400 . Use the machine, and produce it to resell for $100
"so everyone can enjoy the nice paint without the high price"

how do you think it makes the GD painters feel?

GW themselves have copied my (and loads of others to boot) design / conversions, then gone on to mass produce them and sell at a profit. This is a hobby, and as hobbyists we steal / borrow / copy other peoples designes idea's etc etc. I've given advice on the painting forum to people as to how to paint certain aspects of their models, so am I being copied etc etc etc. I was P****d to say the least about the Spaced Armour and the Lotd Biker model, and the 1K Sons Teerminator, not because they were copied and passed of as someone else's (Its inevitable if you have cool conversions, people will copy them) but because GW, a large organisation had done it.

GW painters / GD painters should expect their designs to be copied, or else why would there be painting guides as to how do it. If you've an issue, then don't publish your work. Now when I play at GW Notts, if any Staff member approaches with a camera, I politly ask them not to take any pictures. Now when some normal chap comes along, not employed by GW and wants to take pics, I let them.

stonefox wrote:

JD21290 wrote:stone, are you allways this much of an idiot?

If it serves a funny purpose, yes. I got 2 responses for that one.


edit: I'm loving the leading questions and statements. This is hilarious.

Have some respect. Valid discussions are going on here, if you just here to mess around
in attempt to provoke unnecessary reactions for your amusement , gtfo troll.

luna, just ignore him from now on, we know all trolls suffer from a sudden death, stelek being an example.

TheSecretSquig wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Hey secret squig, just a question since i know you are EBAY painter / seller.

This is just an example so dont say it sucks etc etc!

Say one day someone creates a machine that can scan / duplicate color on a miniature. Buys your painted miniature, and proceeded to clone the painted mini you sold , and sell the 1000s of minis he done that way for $100 each.

How does that make you feel?


Or another example. I go on and buy golden demon awarded minis for $400 . Use the machine, and produce it to resell for $100
"so everyone can enjoy the nice paint without the high price"

how do you think it makes the GD painters feel?

GW themselves have copied my (and loads of others to boot) design / conversions, then gone on to mass produce them and sell at a profit. This is a hobby, and as hobbyists we steal / borrow / copy other peoples designes idea's etc etc. I've given advice on the painting forum to people as to how to paint certain aspects of their models, so am I being copied etc etc etc. I was P****d to say the least about the Spaced Armour and the Lotd Biker model, and the 1K Sons Teerminator, not because they were copied and passed of as someone else's (Its inevitable if you have cool conversions, people will copy them) but because GW, a large organisation had done it.

GW painters / GD painters should expect their designs to be copied, or else why would there be painting guides as to how do it. If you've an issue, then don't publish your work. Now when I play at GW Notts, if any Staff member approaches with a camera, I politly ask them not to take any pictures. Now when some normal chap comes along, not employed by GW and wants to take pics, I let them.

Wait , you are sort of dodging the point of my question ( sorry if my paragraph is hard to read )

If a paint machine is made that can duplicate the quality of your paintings, onto an unpainted miniature.
And someone did just that, and sell the painted miniatures , how would it make you feel?

Im not talking about stealing paint schemes.

If it's a "valid discussion", explain the difference between the amount of effort put forth for a carbon-copy duplicate of a scratch-build and the amount of effort to create a high-grade master copy for a recast then.

As it is it's mostly you two guys asking leading questions and making leading statements to a preferred result. I'd say you're better trolls than me.

JD21290 wrote:and why would they react to it skkipper?
if theres nothing wrong with it then why not let people know you have an army of re-casted GW models?

why because people get models pulled for stupid reasons. example the guy that casted up clear stealth suits was told he couldn't play them. did he do it to save money no. he did it because he thought they were cool.
if GW wanted my money they would make the squats avaible to buy until then I will cast up the bodies and arms and use the forgeworld las guns.

stone, to start with its against the bloody law, so yes, it is wrong.
your just looking for something to do, and trying to troll may have looked like fun to you.


statements i have made so far are to prove skkipper knows its wrong, and i have done that now.



its not all about effort stone, as it has been said alot so far.
re-casting is a direct copy of a model made by a company.
a scratch build is something made to look like the origional (or a model not in production)


so from what you are saying about how GW not liking scratchbuilds and them being wrong, why do they not produce models for everything in thier armies books or codex's?
skarbrand - has no model, so must be scratch built.

however, if you take a bloodthirster and simply re-cast it then it is wrong.

skkipper wrote:
why because people get models pulled for stupid reasons. example the guy that casted up clear stealth suits was told he couldn't play them. did he do it to save money no. he did it because he thought they were cool.
if GW wanted my money they would make the squats avaible to buy until then I will cast up the bodies and arms and use the forgeworld las guns.

k 2 things.

first- GW have to be clear and adamant when it comes to recasts. As cool as that idea is , it can open to loop holes counterfeiters can easily use
to abuse. For example , if im a counterfeiter i would do something like this.

"clear resins figure casts for sale , they represent the latest glory of stealth / camo technology!" all at 50% of GW price.
Clear resins are easily painted over just like any other plastic / resin / metal *wink.

2nd , making money off 1 customer that wants something does not mean its cost effective.


and also:

stonefox wrote:If it's a "valid discussion", explain the difference between the amount of effort put forth for a carbon-copy duplicate of a scratch-build and the amount of effort to create a high-grade master copy for a recast then.

As it is it's mostly you two guys asking leading questions and making leading statements to a preferred result. I'd say you're better trolls than me.

taco_bat MkII

why because people get models pulled for stupid reasons. example the guy that casted up clear stealth suits was told he couldn't play them. did he do it to save money no. he did it because he thought they were cool.
if GW wanted my money they would make the squats avaible to buy until then I will cast up the bodies and arms and use the forgeworld las guns.

re-cast models are not a stupid reason, its breaking the law.
yes, but he still re-cast a model, doesent matter what it was cast in.

so you are allready doing it?
why should they make every model for? especially one that has been out of production for so long?


you know its wrong to re-cast models, you wont buy re-cast models, you wont tell people they are re-casts, yet you say its fine? lol
make your mind up here.

*Edit meant as edit not quote.

yes making casts for personal use is wrong so is speeding and jay walking and underage drinking and smoking pot and doing a wheelie on a motorcycle and not coming to a full stop at a stop sign.

I feel that recasting stuff for personal use is ok. it isn't ok by the law in most countries but I don't care.

selling recasts is wrong.

My mind is made up.

its breaking copyright everywhere skkipper.

so you admit its wrong, know its wrong, yet you think its fine at the same time?

which is it?

skkipper wrote:yes making casts for personal use is wrong so is speeding and jay walking and underage drinking and smoking pot and doing a wheelie on a motorcycle and not coming to a full stop at a stop sign.

I feel that recasting stuff for personal use is ok. it isn't ok by the law in most countries but I don't care.

selling recasts is wrong.

My mind is made up.

*In other words its ok aslong as i dont tell, and dont get caught.

which makes me alittle worried :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Snitchin%27

The question was not if it was lawful - it was if it was "moral." The question was not "recast for the sake of selling" it was a side topic "recast for the sake of personal use". So far the only arguments made in that department are "If it's so expensive don't play it" and when that was called out, it was "Oh I'll let you play it but only if it's a scratch-build or cardboard chits."

So tell me, what is it about the amount of effort in between these two, because casting a mold is easily more difficult than cardboard chits and arguably less difficult (FW models are highly detailed and I'm sure creating good master copies are hard) than making a carbon-copy of an existing mini, that makes it "morally" wrong?

Like I said, we're not talking about simple laws here now. I'm sure most if not all of us have infringed on copyright at least once and that doesn't matter anyway. As far as I know, artists and sculptors make their money before the models are cast - they don't get royalties.

Now if you want we can bring up the issue of videogame piracy as that is a more explored topic with similar themes. Companies struggle to create incentives to buy instead of pirate. There are arguments about the "real" monetary damage of piracy as some people simply do it "just cuz" and would have never bought the game in the first place. It's all a hairy road that way.

So, let's hear what is "morally" wrong about recasting. If you're OK with scratchbuilds then you can't possibly be saying "it's because the original company's funds would suffer." They wouldn't get a dime either way. If it's because of some sort of elitism or because the other guy simply hasn't "invested enough effort" to humor you, then say so. But I'd like to hear what it is.

edit: I do like the "law = moral" part though. But let's say that we all know it's unlawful but do it anyway. I'd like to know why it's immoral.

Are you kidding me stonefox , for one simply compare time / materials between scratch built vs mass production recasts.


I mean you-do-know- the purpose of recast is to mass produce right?

As in people dont make molds to make 1 copy. Now,
tell me the effort / time used between recasting vs scratch building.

^-^?

Also , GW also give credit to scratch builder because in order for them to look good,
there have to be some form of self design / engineering to make the scratch build look GOOD.

Its not as basic and simple as recreating something identical that already EXISTS.

I mean you-do-know- the purpose of recast is to mass product right?

There you go again. The materials and set-up costs for recasting means it won't be worth it to make a few resin copies of plasma pistols, but it would be worth it to make an entire army of Krieg. For personal use. Not mass production. I don't know why you keep assuming there's mass production going on.

This debate has happened before, and the people acting huffy over copyright infringement being imporperly called theft remind me of guys caught cheating by their girlfriends trying to explain that "fooling around" isn't actually sex. It's not, but it's still a pretty big deal to the people that care about this stuff.

Everybody violates copyrights. It's part of the modern landscape. Digital distribution of music makes it harder to obey the law than to follow it. But much like Rush hour in a major city makes it hard to actually follow speed limits doesn't make it ok to drive recklessly, neither does other violations of copyright law legitimize further violations.

For those that are curious, there actually are criminal sanctions available to people that violate copyright in the US.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002319----000-.html

It's cleverly called "Criminal infringement of a copyright" and authorizes up to five years in prison for a first offense.

In any sort of reality, criminal charges are kept in reserve to procure a settlement, but it's still a possibility. And yes, it's against the law and you are a criminal. So, that little myth can go away now.

Copyright infringment should be like stealing cable for personal use. A lot of people think it should be legal, but it ain't. Rather than make endless bloviations about why it's totally ok and the laws are bogus and law is not morality and all that garbage, just do what most people do: shut up, do what they want to do, and ignore the law.

LunaHound wrote:Have some respect. Valid discussions are going on here, if you just here to mess around
in attempt to provoke unnecessary reactions for your amusement , gtfo troll.

Hear Hear I agree - Valid mature discussion with no personals...

GW did steal my idea and went on to Mass Produce it. Albeit I have no proof, and its my lonely word against a large multinational corporation with all the legal backing you can shake a stick at. So, yes, it did annoy me. Now, If they gave me some sort of acknowedgement, or actually asked me first, I may have been happy for that to have been done. If someone was able to scan my design and then mass produce models on that design, to sell at a profit, then good luck to him, I'll buy one of the machines myself and startup.

Seriously though, GW have a loose view to Scratchbuilds. But the letter of the law is quite clear, a copy is a copy, regardless. I'll give you another example of GW's strict IP. I built some Terrain, using no GW content at all, and sold it on Fleabay at a profit. I'd produced a few of them. In the item description, I stated it was ideal for use in games of 40k, and showed pics of my painted IG models on the terrain. GW shut me down, stating that i was using thier models to PR my terrain, and that they are the only company that can state that terrain was ideal for use in 40k, because they own the 40k game, and the models in the pictures. If I attempted to re-list the item, they'd take me to court.

I'm not sure on buying a squad of models, then casting your own for yourself, as even with a music CD, you are allowed to make copies for personal use.

Casting models, claiming they are original to sell on at a profit is illegal, of that I have no doubt. But like my original post said, I wouldn't go out my way to look for them, but if by chance the offer was there to buy and save ££££, I would to a point. By buying 100 IG Troops, meant I spent over £2000 with GW on other stuff for that army. I would never sell the fake stuff on and claim it was real, but even GW couldn't tell the difference. I'm sure many people here have copied their friends / wives / partners CD's for themselves, instead of just buying them.

So tell me, what is it about the amount of effort in between these two, because casting a mold is easily more difficult than cardboard chits and arguably less difficult (FW models are highly detailed and I'm sure creating good master copies are hard) than making a carbon-copy of an existing mini, that makes it "morally" wrong?

if re-casting is more difficult, why do it for a start?
scratch building shows skill rather than someones ability to copy an existing model through a basic process.

Like I said, we're not talking about simple laws here now. I'm sure most if not all of us have infringed on copyright at least once and that doesn't matter anyway. As far as I know, artists and sculptors make their money before the models are cast - they don't get royalties.

it still doesent mean it wasnt designed by that person.
making a re-cast is a direct copy of the origional design.



this has nothing to do with vido piracy atall, allthough, if you say thats wrong, why defend this?

So, let's hear what is "morally" wrong about recasting. If you're OK with scratchbuilds then you can't possibly be saying "it's because the original company's funds would suffer." They wouldn't get a dime either way. If it's because of some sort of elitism or because the other guy simply hasn't "invested enough effort" to humor you, then say so. But I'd like to hear what it is.

how can a company suffer from a non existant model like skarbrand? that would have to be a scratch build.
it also takes alot of work to get the model to a good standard though scratch building.

re-casting is not only against the law due to copyright (as you should know)
but your copying someone elses hard work that they have put alot of time into.



allthough, from all the re-casters points of view i guess it will be fine

stonefox wrote:

I mean you-do-know- the purpose of recast is to mass product right?

There you go again. The materials and set-up costs for recasting means it won't be worth it to make a few resin copies of plasma pistols, but it would be worth it to make an entire army of Krieg. For personal use. Not mass production. I don't know why you keep assuming there's mass production going on.

ahahahaha read your own sentence and tell me do i need to further explain that sentence.

stonefox wrote:

I mean you-do-know- the purpose of recast is to mass product right?

There you go again. The materials and set-up costs for recasting means it won't be worth it to make a few resin copies of plasma pistols, but it would be worth it to make an entire army of Krieg. For personal use. Not mass production. I don't know why you keep assuming there's mass production going on.

It's important to note that the law generally sees any ability to produce more than one copy as "mass production." Mass doesn't mean thousands or even hundreds, it simply means more than can be produced by hand.

JD21290 wrote:its breaking copyright everywhere skkipper.

so you admit its wrong, know its wrong, yet you think its fine at the same time?

which is it?

it is legally wrong? yes. morally wrong? no
yep there are times I am very cool about breaking the law.

Polonius wrote:This debate has happened before, and the people acting huffy over copyright infringement being imporperly called theft remind me of guys caught cheating by their girlfriends trying to explain that "fooling around" isn't actually sex. It's not, but it's still a pretty big deal to the people that care about this stuff.

Right. It's just that some of those who make a big deal of it may think they are somehow better or whatever. And no it's not sex.

Everybody violates copyrights. It's part of the modern landscape. Digital distribution of music makes it harder to obey the law than to follow it. But much like Rush hour in a major city makes it hard to actually follow speed limits doesn't make it ok to drive recklessly, neither does other violations of copyright law legitimize further violations.

Right. That's popular opinion or whatever that stupid debating term logical fallacy is called. For me personally I'd just like to know why some people think it's OK to scratch build a perfect copy but not recast one. If it's 'cuz they didn't put enough effort, fine and whatever. I'll call 'em a snob if I feel like it, they'll accept it if they want to.

Polonius wrote:

stonefox wrote:

I mean you-do-know- the purpose of recast is to mass product right?

There you go again. The materials and set-up costs for recasting means it won't be worth it to make a few resin copies of plasma pistols, but it would be worth it to make an entire army of Krieg. For personal use. Not mass production. I don't know why you keep assuming there's mass production going on.

It's important to note that the law generally sees any ability to produce more than one copy as "mass production." Mass doesn't mean thousands or even hundreds, it simply means more than can be produced by hand.

Yep Polonius gets my point.

Factor in what stonefox about how few plasma pistol isnt worth the recast comparing to recasting kreigs.

Need i say more stonefox?

LunaHound wrote:

stonefox wrote:

I mean you-do-know- the purpose of recast is to mass product right?

There you go again. The materials and set-up costs for recasting means it won't be worth it to make a few resin copies of plasma pistols, but it would be worth it to make an entire army of Krieg. For personal use. Not mass production. I don't know why you keep assuming there's mass production going on.

ahahahaha read your own sentence and tell me do i need to further explain that sentence.

OK let's call it mass production for personal usage. Tell me what's morally wrong about it again.

edit:

Need i say more stonefox?

Say what again? That you look down on others because they might not scratchbuild a perfect copy...that it's morally wrong....what exactly are you saying?

stonefox wrote:

Polonius wrote:This debate has happened before, and the people acting huffy over copyright infringement being imporperly called theft remind me of guys caught cheating by their girlfriends trying to explain that "fooling around" isn't actually sex. It's not, but it's still a pretty big deal to the people that care about this stuff.

Right. It's just that some of those who make a big deal of it may think they are somehow better or whatever. And no it's not sex.

Everybody violates copyrights. It's part of the modern landscape. Digital distribution of music makes it harder to obey the law than to follow it. But much like Rush hour in a major city makes it hard to actually follow speed limits doesn't make it ok to drive recklessly, neither does other violations of copyright law legitimize further violations.

Right. That's popular opinion or whatever that stupid debating term logical fallacy is called. For me personally I'd just like to know why some people think it's OK to scratch build a perfect copy but not recast one. If it's 'cuz they didn't put enough effort, fine and whatever. I'll call 'em a snob if I feel like it, they'll accept it if they want to.

Sigh stonefox, dont know what to say to you sometimes... you should know better since we are both in this hobby.

alright lets see. casting = knowledge nothing to do with hobby aspects of warhammer. Just how to work the machines to replicate stuff in.
scratch build = using hobby skills related to warhammer to build it.

stonefox wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

stonefox wrote:

I mean you-do-know- the purpose of recast is to mass product right?

There you go again. The materials and set-up costs for recasting means it won't be worth it to make a few resin copies of plasma pistols, but it would be worth it to make an entire army of Krieg. For personal use. Not mass production. I don't know why you keep assuming there's mass production going on.

ahahahaha read your own sentence and tell me do i need to further explain that sentence.

OK let's call it mass production for personal usage. Tell me what's morally wrong about it again.

edit:

Need i say more stonefox?

Say what again? That you look down on others because they might not scratchbuild a perfect copy...that it's morally wrong....what exactly are you saying?

How would i look down others? You think this discussion is to do with how much money we all have? Are you serious?
Incase you didnt read all my earlier posts ( I used paper with units written on it before in Warhammer Fantasy )

Tsk tsk

Ah so because you have the knowledge to recast but not "hobby knowledge", then one person is better than the other person and because warhams is a "hobby", that somehow makes the latter a better person? That the former person is morally bankrupt?

If that's it, OK. Sure. My opinion is different. I don't think lesser because one person can't rub greenstuff together to make a Krieg guy, but he can operate a molding machine. I don't have a problem with it but you sure do. And I don't get why that upsets you. (Hint: I already took the economic implications out.)

Stonefox, I think the big difference between scratch building and recasting has already been pointed out: GW has stated that scratch building is fine. Now, whether they extended that to making exact copies of models they sell, or whatever, I couldn't tell you. However, the copyright holder does have the right to selectively allow people to copy their materials, just as I can selectively choose who gets to copy my genetic materials.

GW has decided that a bit of converting and scratch building is ok. That's it.

Wasn't there a guy on Dakka Sculpting Primarch's. Didn't he get shut down by GW? Again, none of his models featured any GW Icons etc, but he built them from ideas in GW owned drawings.

So with this example, scratch built IS an infrindgement on GW.

oh stop with all this "morally" crap!

if someone thinks that mugging an old lady is morally right (there are some sick people in this world), then its fine?
is it feth!

just because something may be morally right to you, does not mean its fine.

stonefox wrote:

Polonius wrote:This debate has happened before, and the people acting huffy over copyright infringement being imporperly called theft remind me of guys caught cheating by their girlfriends trying to explain that "fooling around" isn't actually sex. It's not, but it's still a pretty big deal to the people that care about this stuff.

Right. It's just that some of those who make a big deal of it may think they are somehow better or whatever. And no it's not sex.

Well, I think that people that follow the law, pay for what they use, and respect the work of others are better than those that don't. Yes, even if in other areas they don't, when a person shows that they understand the underpinnings of modern society, that gets more respect than a person that doesn't. And my point was that, while having your girlfriends sister pleasure orally is not intercourse, arguing that fact misses the point: it's still wrong. Is copyright infringement legally theft? No, but it's taking something that is yours. it's illegal and wrong.

Everybody violates copyrights. It's part of the modern landscape. Digital distribution of music makes it harder to obey the law than to follow it. But much like Rush hour in a major city makes it hard to actually follow speed limits doesn't make it ok to drive recklessly, neither does other violations of copyright law legitimize further violations.

Right. That's popular opinion or whatever that stupid debating term logical fallacy is called. For me personally I'd just like to know why some people think it's OK to scratch build a perfect copy but not recast one. If it's 'cuz they didn't put enough effort, fine and whatever. I'll call 'em a snob if I feel like it, they'll accept it if they want to.

Wehrkind wrote:Stonefox, I think the big difference between scratch building and recasting has already been pointed out: GW has stated that scratch building is fine. Now, whether they extended that to making exact copies of models they sell, or whatever, I couldn't tell you. However, the copyright holder does have the right to selectively allow people to copy their materials, just as I can selectively choose who gets to copy my genetic materials.

GW has decided that a bit of converting and scratch building is ok. That's it.

Yeah man, I get it. It's just that Luna keeps running around in circles using the law as the goalpost when I already said that wasn't my goal at all. My reasons are that I'd like to know what's morally wrong with it for personal use if there are NO economic benefits or detraction from anyone. If Luna says "I think it's morally wrong because GW says so" then fine. I'm fine with that. But I don't get why Luna's still trying to argue about the law or whatever when I never stated anything about it. We all know it's against the law regarding copyright infringement. My argument was never about that.

just because something may be morally right to you, does not mean its fine.

And just because it's a law does not mean it's necessarily good or right.

stonefox wrote:Ah so because you have the knowledge to recast but not "hobby knowledge", then one person is better than the other person and because warhams is a "hobby", that somehow makes the latter a better person? That the former person is morally bankrupt?

If that's it, OK. Sure. My opinion is different. I don't think lesser because one person can't rub greenstuff together to make a Krieg guy, but he can operate a molding machine. I don't have a problem with it but you sure do. And I don't get why that upsets you. (Hint: I already took the economic implications out.)

Flawed explanasion stonefox. You forget the fact a person that cant use GS can simply purchase the original Miniature GW has produced.

Feel free to add anything you want to say in, im not the only person reading the thread, dont worry about me been to stupid to understand :"D
more power to you right?

TheSecretSquig wrote:Wasn't there a guy on Dakka Sculpting Primarch's. Didn't he get shut down by GW? Again, none of his models featured any GW Icons etc, but he built them from ideas in GW owned drawings.

So with this example, scratch built IS an infrindgement on GW.

Well, you keep bringing these examples up, so I figure Ill respond to this one. GW is prtty zealous in protecting it's IP. It arguably goes farther than it should, but it knows that a cease and desist letter will stop most borderline cases. The average garage shop can't afford to fight it. It's a certain amount of legal bullying, but it's part of how the system works.

so, someone cant afford the hobby, yet they can afford all the casting gear?
that makes alot of sense.

if you cant use GS to convert, kitbash!
its actually how i learned.

stonefox wrote:

Wehrkind wrote:Stonefox, I think the big difference between scratch building and recasting has already been pointed out: GW has stated that scratch building is fine. Now, whether they extended that to making exact copies of models they sell, or whatever, I couldn't tell you. However, the copyright holder does have the right to selectively allow people to copy their materials, just as I can selectively choose who gets to copy my genetic materials.

GW has decided that a bit of converting and scratch building is ok. That's it.

Yeah man, I get it. It's just that Luna keeps running around in circles using the law as the goalpost when I already said that wasn't my goal at all. My reasons are that I'd like to know what's morally wrong with it for personal use if there are NO economic benefits or detraction from anyone. If Luna says "I think it's morally wrong because GW says so" then fine. I'm fine with that. But I don't get why Luna's still trying to argue about the law or whatever when I never stated anything about it. We all know it's against the law regarding copyright infringement. My argument was never about that.

just because something may be morally right to you, does not mean its fine.

And just because it's a law does not mean it's necessarily good or right.

Nope, but it does account largely for why it was made into law /legally in the first place.
I keep bringing up law in hope you can think about why such laws are made,
to protect the people and their efforts. In this case GW and their sculptors.

Polonius wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:Wasn't there a guy on Dakka Sculpting Primarch's. Didn't he get shut down by GW? Again, none of his models featured any GW Icons etc, but he built them from ideas in GW owned drawings.

So with this example, scratch built IS an infrindgement on GW.

Well, you keep bringing these examples up, so I figure Ill respond to this one. GW is prtty zealous in protecting it's IP. It arguably goes farther than it should, but it knows that a cease and desist letter will stop most borderline cases. The average garage shop can't afford to fight it. It's a certain amount of legal bullying, but it's part of how the system works.

GW's legal zealotry is precisely why I'd be very amused if GW ever gets too close to some of Blizzard's art assets and Blizzard ever decides to do something about it. Not to mention all the the rage from GW fanboys who love to spout how GW was the inspiration for Starcraft, etc.

Assuming we can keep this on a non personal level, ideally, I'd like to invite you all to my local pub and discuss this over a few beers !

I have no problem with that.

Nope, but it does account largely for why it was made into law /legally in the first place.
I keep bringing up law in hope you can think about why such laws are made,
to protect the people and their efforts. In this case GW and their sculptors.

A lot of laws are largely made to protect the state and properties, not necessarily people.

On the matter of IP Protection, doing so is in fact a legal obligation on behalf of the holder.

Fail to do so and you can lose control of it.

JD21290 wrote:so, someone cant afford the hobby, yet they can afford all the casting gear?
that makes alot of sense.

if you cant use GS to convert, kitbash!
its actually how i learned.

Exactly , stonefox kept bringing up how recasting some items are ineffective costwise
yet he doesnt see when i point out the mass producing ( you can bet you'll produce enough
to balance the money spent investing on the casting materials *wink )

*edit quick off topic question so i dont have to make new thread on it.

Is the post office working today in USA ?
i thought i read somewhere its holiday today (monday)

i agree luna, after spending more money than actually buying the models then they would need a way to make money back from it

If someone recasts Squat figures because GW doesn't make them any more, they harm the following people.

(A) Olley's Armies, who make a nice range of Space Dwarfs

(B) Hasslefree Miniatures, who make a nice range of Space Dwarf.

(C) Any player, who wants to sell his late 80s official GW Squat figures, legitimately bought in the shop and now about to go on eBay.

And GW, because the right to copy is also the right not to copy.

i agree 100% krazy.


also, finding the models needed makes it somewhat fun.
wheres the fun in re-casting ancient models all day?

Just a snippet from English Law:

The buyer of stolen goods is more severly punished than the person stealing the goods, as if he did not create a market for the goods, they would not ahve been stolen in the first place.

So if you own KO's, your punished more than the person producing them!

Kilkrazy wrote:If someone recasts Squat figures because GW doesn't make them any more, they harm the following people.

(A) Olley's Armies, who make a nice range of Space Dwarfs

(B) Hasslefree Miniatures, who make a nice range of Space Dwarf.

(C) Any player, who wants to sell his late 80s official GW Squat figures, legitimately bought in the shop and now about to go on eBay.

*nod nod

I refuse to believe there are only 3 people in this thread that realize stuff like this.

I said I was taking the economic portion out of it. I said I personally wouldn't do it because I wouldn't see the point of plasma pistols.

But, looking online, it would only cost ~$75 to get enough resin mold-making rubber and mold to make enough for a, say, Krieg squad of 10 or two FW crisis suits. You can create an army with enough copies of those and it only costs one unit's worth for the initial master copy. It's still effective costwise if you don't mind playing with only 10-different-looking Krieg.

edit: Oh yes, and if you do so, you MUST be making copies for resale because you have the master mold already!

and you then not only break the law stone, but your using a re-cast army, which is just low.

if you need to find bitz, buy them from any place that sells them, would be alot cheaper than casting them yourself.

stonefox wrote:I said I was taking the economic portion out of it. I said I personally wouldn't do it because I wouldn't see the point of plasma pistols.

But, looking online, it would only cost ~$75 to get enough resin mold-making rubber and mold to make enough for a, say, Krieg squad of 10 or two FW crisis suits. You can create an army with enough copies of those and it only costs one unit's worth for the initial master copy. It's still effective costwise if you don't mind playing with only 10-different-looking Krieg.

edit: Oh yes, and if you do so, you MUST be making copies for resale because you have the master mold already!

Not sure how to say this but... just because certain individuals dont know how to effective counterfeit and mass produce the copies
doesnt mean the prodfessionals arnt doing it.

We arnt simply talking "how much damage can stonefox do if he decides to counterfeit"

Im talking about actual HUGE counterfeiting rings. Where the operations isnt small like
"we are counterfeiting warhammer today " More like today, we want to mass produce
all these plastic products.

You obviously havnt seen how large these operations are . They are SO WELL organized and ran , that if
someday GW do catches them , GW will NEVER EVER be able to catch the head of the operation.
This is why its mostly done in china, when everything LEGAL and LAWFUL can be bought with $$$$.

Piece of cake if they feel like it.

Oh , some basic examples :

SM CD company ( world wide buisness, 100% professionaly done for decades no one knew )
Current Nintendo / Sony products. All over ebay, pretty well done , hard to catch.

Annnnd we have our warhammer. Easily done if they feel like it, but way much more money
cashing in from the 2 example ^

JD21290 wrote:and you then not only break the law stone, but your using a re-cast army, which is just low.

Why is it low. I pride myself in painting well painted themed armies. If my opponent turned up with the same, albeit recast, I couldn't give a monkeys, as long as the effort has gone into the painting. Low is the opponet with a sprayed black, drybrushed boltgun, Chaos Space Marine Army.

Not sure how to say this but... just because certain individuals dont know how to effective counterfeit and mass produce the copies
doesnt mean the prodfessionals arnt doing it.

We arnt simply talking "how much damage can stonefox do if he decides to counterfeit"

Im talking about actual HUGE counterfeiting rings. Where the operations isnt small like
"we are counterfeiting warhammer today " More like today, we want to mass produce
all these plastic products.

You obviously havnt seen how large these operations are . They are SO WELL organized and ran , that if
someday GW do catches them , GW will NEVER EVER be able to catch the head of the operation.
This is why its mostly done in china, when everything LEGAL and LAWFUL can be bought with $$$$.

Piece of cake if they feel like it.

.....and again dude, you completely miss my points. I was never talking about them. But whatever man.

Why is it low. I pride myself in painting well painted themed armies. If my opponent turned up with the same, albeit recast, I couldn't give a monkeys, as long as the effort has gone into the painting. Low is the opponet with a sprayed black, drybrushed boltgun, Chaos Space Marine Army.

But, but...they have REAL GW(tm) toy soldiers!

Alright, we're having multiple conversations in here about different things.

We were talking about counterfeiting models, then we were talking about recasting specifically, then about personal use and selling recasts...

I think the conversation has shifted away from frowning on people that use counterfeits / make counterfeits and into recasting GW models and selling them. That's a pretty specific debate, so I'll back out - I have nothing to add to that part.

squig, this isnt about painting though, this is about re-casting models.
doesent matter how well painted they are, he has still broken the law in making them, and the person will know they have done so, yet do not care about it.

so instead of casting myself. I should buy models from ebay that are likely to be recasts but since i don't know its ok.

TheSecretSquig wrote:Low is the opponet with a sprayed black, drybrushed boltgun, Chaos Space Marine Army.

Now you're trading in one form of elitism for another.

Sorry if I went off on a tangent - This post from a few pages back sumerises my thoughts on this topic.

TheSecretSquig wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Have some respect. Valid discussions are going on here, if you just here to mess around
in attempt to provoke unnecessary reactions for your amusement , gtfo troll.

Hear Hear I agree - Valid mature discussion with no personals...

GW did steal my idea and went on to Mass Produce it. Albeit I have no proof, and its my lonely word against a large multinational corporation with all the legal backing you can shake a stick at. So, yes, it did annoy me. Now, If they gave me some sort of acknowedgement, or actually asked me first, I may have been happy for that to have been done. If someone was able to scan my design and then mass produce models on that design, to sell at a profit, then good luck to him, I'll buy one of the machines myself and startup.

Seriously though, GW have a loose view to Scratchbuilds. But the letter of the law is quite clear, a copy is a copy, regardless. I'll give you another example of GW's strict IP. I built some Terrain, using no GW content at all, and sold it on Fleabay at a profit. I'd produced a few of them. In the item description, I stated it was ideal for use in games of 40k, and showed pics of my painted IG models on the terrain. GW shut me down, stating that i was using thier models to PR my terrain, and that they are the only company that can state that terrain was ideal for use in 40k, because they own the 40k game, and the models in the pictures. If I attempted to re-list the item, they'd take me to court.

I'm not sure on buying a squad of models, then casting your own for yourself, as even with a music CD, you are allowed to make copies for personal use.

Casting models, claiming they are original to sell on at a profit is illegal, of that I have no doubt. But like my original post said, I wouldn't go out my way to look for them, but if by chance the offer was there to buy and save ££££, I would to a point. By buying 100 IG Troops, meant I spent over £2000 with GW on other stuff for that army. I would never sell the fake stuff on and claim it was real, but even GW couldn't tell the difference. I'm sure many people here have copied their friends / wives / partners CD's for themselves, instead of just buying them.

skkipper wrote:so instead of casting myself. I should buy models from ebay that are likely to be recasts but since i don't know its ok.

Good luck man. I have class now so you'll have to take the torch.

no skkipper, you simply check the model, not all re-casts are spot on.
if you cant see it well then ask for a better pic.

and also, it might be a dead giveaway if you see someone selling a bulk load of the same old / ltd edition model.



so you dont care about re-casting your own stuff, but you wont buy because they may be re-cast?
you cant have it both ways, either support re-casting or go against it.

You obviously havnt seen how large these operations are . They are SO WELL organized and ran , that if
someday GW do catches them , GW will NEVER EVER be able to catch the head of the operation.
This is why its mostly done in china, when everything LEGAL and LAWFUL can be bought with $$$$.

Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? Like there's a global recasting cabal that's out to rip off all the plastic toys and miniatures in the world.
The amount of money it would take to support an orginization like this wouldn't be worth the money they were making. I mean look at GWs profit. It's not a whole lot.
So even if they were making half of what GW makes it's not that much. And that's a generous amount.
I'm still of the asumption that this problem is not as big as some people here make it out to be. I've never seen anything on ebay that I could say was definitely recast/counterfeit.
If someone could prove beyond a shadow of doubt that I am wrong I would gladly retract my statement.

And i'm still of the opinion that yes it is illegal, but no it isn't wrong. Just like downloading britney spears new album is illegal but not wrong.

dagger, i have seen re-cast stuff on ebay
one that was a dead giveaway was someone selling 150 single stealth suits, each made from "rare" white plastic lol

I love the "2 wrong makes a right " idea here.

SecretSquig, if GW has wronged you before, and you are doing this to get back at them , i will support your actions 100% i will because i understand the pain .

But thats not the same as because GW did wrong before, it makes everything we do wrong ... "right".

skkipper wrote:if I started selling squads of space marines I sculpted on e-bay. GW would shut me down.

GW already sued and won in US District Court.

GAMES WORKSHOP LTD., Plaintiff, v. BRIAN BEAL, Defendant.

Case No. 04-0013-CV-W-FJG

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF MISSOURI, WESTERN DIVISION

2006 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 22525

no I don't think you should profit from it esp since most recasts are not labeled as such.

dagger, i have seen re-cast stuff on ebay
one that was a dead giveaway was someone selling 150 single stealth suits, each made from "rare" white plastic lol

Not to impinge on you JD but you saying you've seen this stuff isn't proof. My uncle jersey has seen the bigfoot near portland when he was a truck driver for JB Hunt back in the 80s.

On a sidenote I've always wanted to recast steathsuits in clear plastic. What would some of you say to that?

Daggermaw wrote:

You obviously havnt seen how large these operations are . They are SO WELL organized and ran , that if
someday GW do catches them , GW will NEVER EVER be able to catch the head of the operation.
This is why its mostly done in china, when everything LEGAL and LAWFUL can be bought with $$$$.

Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? Like there's a global recasting cabal that's out to rip off all the plastic toys and miniatures in the world.
The amount of money it would take to support an orginization like this wouldn't be worth the money they were making. I mean look at GWs profit. It's not a whole lot.
So even if they were making half of what GW makes it's not that much. And that's a generous amount.
I'm still of the asumption that this problem is not as big as some people here make it out to be. I've never seen anything on ebay that I could say was definitely recast/counterfeit.
If someone could prove beyond a shadow of doubt that I am wrong I would gladly retract my statement.

And i'm still of the opinion that yes it is illegal, but no it isn't wrong. Just like downloading britney spears new album is illegal but not wrong.

daggermaw There you go again. The world does not revolve around what you know , or what you find ridiculous you always seem to bring up
after my posts.

The counterfeit rings exist whether you like it or not. And its not specific as in "we'll rip toy companies off"
Its more basic.

"What product does our current plastic injections have compatibility with"
If compatible, how large / wide is the market.
Within these market are there countries with more dodgy law enforcements.

How much can we produce with cheaper plastic injector molds for a dry test run incase the operation
doesnt yield prerfered margin.


As i say again daggermaw, you think too small of how counterfeiter rings works.


its not about bunch of poor guys trying to make $1000 discount so they dont have to buy legit GW product.


Its more like what do we do with 100 tons of plastic we have deal with, and out of the product we are capable of
producing, which one can yield the most . materials vs earned.

Back from getting a coffee. . . .

If it is a simple for or against casting - I'm against.

But I don't think its a simple balck and white question. Like I've said, I would not purposefully got out my way to find cheaper recasts, but if the oppertunity arose, then yes I'd buy them to avoid high prices. What I would not do, is then knowing they are fake, try to pass them off as real.

Tell you what, if you feel the prices are so high, tell me what makes you so special you don't feel you have to pay them?

I mean, I agree the prices are not especially cheap, but since I enjoy the game and it constitutes a large part of my leisure time, I pay it. Would be nice if it was cheaper, but it's not.

So please, justify your special position where not wanting to pay for something means your allowed to rip it off?

The counterfeit rings exist whether you like it or not. And its not specific as in "we'll rip toy companies off"
Its more basic.

And I say it doesn't exist whether you like it or not. See how that works. The burden of proof is on you to prove that it exists.

As i say again daggermaw, you think too small of how counterfeiter rings works.

I do think too small, because I don't believe there's this huge counterfeting ring whose leaders couldn't ever be caught it's so huge.

That sounds like the plot to a G.I.Joe episode.

for me it isn't about money. it is about getting what I want. I'm not gong to fly to baltimore or the uk for a GT then bitch about prices.

ah, doc, your opinions seems just about as blunt as mine are

for me it isn't about money. it is about getting what I want. I'm not gong to fly to baltimore or the uk for a GT then bitch about prices.

ever stopped to think that people dont allways get what they want?
so because you want them its fine to cast them?

Daggermaw wrote:

The counterfeit rings exist whether you like it or not. And its not specific as in "we'll rip toy companies off"
Its more basic.

And I say it doesn't exist whether you like it or not. See how that works. The burden of proof is on you to prove that it exists.

As i say again daggermaw, you think too small of how counterfeiter rings works.

I do think too small, because I don't believe there's this huge counterfeting ring whose leaders couldn't ever be caught it's so huge.

That sounds like the plot to a G.I.Joe episode.

I dont want to be rude as would be off topic, but me asking would sure help shine light on some of this.

How old are you , and what work does your parents do , as well as yourself?

Oh and you bet counterfeiting rings would be heavy with plot. Or else how could they make
billions?

If you need examples, google SM CD company. and tell me it doesnt exist ok?

After reading your posts, i have no idea if you are naive to that point or just trying to troll.

You want to recast stealthsuits? sure go for it!
No one said you'll be caught
No one said you'll have to let people know
I mean thats the reactions from this thread right?

Just dont expect GW to not confiscate it when they do find out though.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Tell you what, if you feel the prices are so high, tell me what makes you so special you don't feel you have to pay them?

I mean, I agree the prices are not especially cheap, but since I enjoy the game and it constitutes a large part of my leisure time, I pay it. Would be nice if it was cheaper, but it's not.

So please, justify your special position where not wanting to pay for something means your allowed to rip it off?

There is no justification or defence against it, I've never tried in any of my posts to defend it. I 100% agree that casting and selling on for profit is wrong and illegal. In the 20 years I've been in this hobby, I probably have spent in excess of £40,000 on it (and thats just me, lets put aside how many people I've introduced), and out of all of that, 100 of my Steel Legion troops came from a guy who had cast them himself. I never looked for him, never have done since, but the oppertunity came up to save some £££, so I did. I've been nothing but 100% honest on this forum.

JD21290 wrote:

for me it isn't about money. it is about getting what I want. I'm not gong to fly to baltimore or the uk for a GT then bitch about prices.

ever stopped to think that people dont allways get what they want?
so because you want them its fine to cast them?

you are right some people don't get what they want. I do. I will cast if I need to.

I dont want to be rude as would be off topic, but me asking would sure help shine light on some of this.

How old are you , and what work does your parents do , as well as yourself?

yeah it is a little off topic but I'm 29 years old a former US Marine, my father is the Assistant Inspector General (eastern region) for the department of homeland security, my mother is a doctor and assistant dean of nursing education at thomas edison university.

Yes I'm older than you.

That is why I don't believe in the counterfeting cabal as I've been around the world several times and have a general understanding of how people work throughout the world. and if an orginization had the pwoers you claim they do they wouldn't be maklng plastic models, they'd be making something else that makes more money.

you are right some people don't get what they want. I do. I will cast if I need to.

lol, so you are the only guy in the world that gets everything he wants?
im sure you own a very large company with a very nice car and trophy wife then.
and also an endless bank account and oodles of spare time.
no?
then you dont get everything you want.


no one will get everything they want, its part of life, i just guess that some people will stoop to any level and break any laws / rules to get thier own way.

Daggermaw wrote:

I dont want to be rude as would be off topic, but me asking would sure help shine light on some of this.

How old are you , and what work does your parents do , as well as yourself?

yeah it is a little off topic but I'm 29 years old a former US Marine, my father is the Assistant Inspector General (eastern region) for the department of homeland security, my mother is a doctor and assistant dean of nursing education at thomas edison university.

Yes I'm older than you.

That is why I don't believe in the counterfeting cabal as I've been around the world several times and have a general understanding of how people work throughout the world. and if an orginization had the pwoers you claim they do they wouldn't be maklng plastic models, they'd be making something else that makes more money.

ROFL . k 2 things. I'll just list you facts so there is no need to doubt here.

1) How is googling SM company going?

2) According to your little "theory" Then there would be no such thing as counterfeting lego or other "dollar store" toys is there?
Since they yield sooooooooooo little profit right?

But since we all know it exists, why is it so hard to believe GW is bad for profit when its ******** expensive as we already know.

Make some sense please.


Lastly, you have been around the world?

OH let me do this now.

Welcome to China , Taiwan , HK ( not anymore ) Where we produce the best counterfeits around the world.
Enjoy your stay as we'll guarantee you wont be able to recognize the counterfeit products ( especially Taiwan )

Too far for you? ok... come to Vancouver around mid summer, i'll personally take you to our Night Markets.
Then you'll tell me what you see are just hallucinations ok?

*Dies from the amount of ridiculousness.

i do pretty well
I do have a nice car, a pretty wife, a fat bank account.
sure I can't get more time but I can by casting instead of searching e-bay for 3-5 years to get models I want.

I'm sorry being lawful and moral are not the same. by casting up 100 squat models, Games workshop is actually making more money as I would be outfitting them with gw kit. I don't need to do this I have enough GW stuff that I could paint straight for 5 years and not finish. buying the items would be the cheaper and faster route but you can't buy them. so you need to scratchbuild them with a spincaster

1) How is googling SM company going?


????????????????????????? Explain

Daggermaw wrote:

dagger, i have seen re-cast stuff on ebay
one that was a dead giveaway was someone selling 150 single stealth suits, each made from "rare" white plastic lol

Not to impinge on you JD but you saying you've seen this stuff isn't proof. My uncle jersey has seen the bigfoot near portland when he was a truck driver for JB Hunt back in the 80s.

On a sidenote I've always wanted to recast steathsuits in clear plastic. What would some of you say to that?

I am very sad that you can't do it legally. But you can see GW's viewpoint. If they license clear acrylic stealthsuits, their sales of ordinary stealthsuits will drop through the floor because you can just paint over them.

I'm quite surprised that GW haven't made clear acrylic themselves. I think it would be a big seller.

TheSecretSquig wrote:1) How is googling SM company going?


????????????????????????? Explain

-_- you and daggermaw go do your part!

I went as far as giving you the company name + you can check their history
in counterfeiting.

You guys do the rest yourself.

ROFL . k 2 things. I'll just list you facts so there is no need to doubt here.

1) How is googling SM company going?

2) According to your little "theory" Then there would be no such thing as counterfeting lego or other "dollar store" toys is there?
Since they yield sooooooooooo little profit right?

But since we all know it exists, why is it so hard to believe GW is bad for profit when its ******** expensive as we already know.

Make some sense please.

1. I don't know what that means. So I can't answer it

2. those LEGO and dollar store things aren't counterfeiting they're knockoffs. Big difference, counterfeiting means they're using actual GW products to make their molds. The knockoff legos and dollarstore things aren't using LEGO blocks or using GIJoes for their molds they're making they're own molds. Albeit they look similiar it's not the same, as MEGABLOKS have won numerous lawsuits brought against them by LEGO.

Notice you didn't have anything to say about my age or background

Again I say if this global plastic counterfeiting ring exists just show me some proof from an outside source. It could show you numerous sources of people bootlegging DVDs or handbags.
If your cabal is as large as you say then finding some evidence shouldn't be to hard. All I need is a little evidence and I'll recant my stance.

i do pretty well
I do have a nice car, a pretty wife, a fat bank account.
sure I can't get more time but I can by casting instead of searching e-bay for 3-5 years to get models I want.

I'm sorry being lawful and moral are not the same. by casting up 100 squat models, Games workshop is actually making more money as I would be outfitting them with gw kit. I don't need to do this I have enough GW stuff that I could paint straight for 5 years and not finish. buying the items would be the cheaper and faster route but you can't buy them. so you need to scratchbuild them with a spincaster

you could allways think about using existing kits to either kitbash or convert your own squat, ive seen some amazing conversions for squats, and not only would it work out cheaper, they will look better as your not restricted to a few poses.

Not to impinge on you JD but you saying you've seen this stuff isn't proof. My uncle jersey has seen the bigfoot near portland when he was a truck driver for JB Hunt back in the 80s.

On a sidenote I've always wanted to recast steathsuits in clear plastic. What would some of you say to that?

i am more than happy to take a screen shot of the next lot of dodgy stuff i see on ebay, its not really rare to see it, just a cse of finding it before thier auctions get pulled for it, but ill make sure i get you a screen shot of it to make you happy.


i would say its still copyright, doesent matter if they are made of pure gold.

Daggermaw wrote:

ROFL . k 2 things. I'll just list you facts so there is no need to doubt here.

1) How is googling SM company going?

2) According to your little "theory" Then there would be no such thing as counterfeting lego or other "dollar store" toys is there?
Since they yield sooooooooooo little profit right?

But since we all know it exists, why is it so hard to believe GW is bad for profit when its ******** expensive as we already know.

Make some sense please.

1. I don't know what that means. So I can't answer it

2. those LEGO and dollar store things aren't counterfeiting they're knockoffs. Big difference, counterfeiting means they're using actual GW products to make they're molds. The knockoff legos and dollarstore things aren't using LEGO blocks or using GIJoes for their molds they're making they're own molds. Albeit they look similiar it's not the same, as MEGABLOKS have won numerous lawsuits brought against them by LEGO.

Notice you didn't have anything to say about my age or background

Again I say if this global plastic counterfeiting ring exists just show me some proof from an outside source. It could show you numerous sources of people bootlegging DVDs or handbags.
If your cabal is as large as you say then finding some evidence shouldn't be to hard. All I need is a little evidence and I'll recant my stance.

How do i show you counterfeit plastic if
a) they dont sell the counterfeits direcitly with online stores?
you think they'll leave evidence for them to be caught as easily ONLINE? you are Kidding me right?
b) they are often painted over , and sold as painted armies . You wont even know the materials
unless they start chipping / or you strip them.

Eh, do you perfer i continuing making a deal between our financial state or background ? If you insist , you are on.

In the +20 yrs of doing this hobby, I came accross 1 counterfeiter, and that was by accident, not from looking.

TheSecretSquig wrote:In the +20 yrs of doing this hobby, I came accross 1 counterfeiter, and that was by accident, not from looking.

Which means they do exist . There is no question about it.

Im not sure why daggermaw expect counterfeit goods to have large shinny labels of
" WTS COUNTERFEITED WARHAMMER ITAMZ!"

*face palm and goes emo.

Eh, do you perfer i continuing making a deal between our financial state or background ? If you insist , you are on.

No, I have no interest in your background other than you are canadian and going emo 24/7, but you asked me about mine to suggest that I was young and therefore uneducated and perhaps poor, and when I provided evidence to the contrary you had nothing to say to this.

And yet you still don't respond to my comments directly either.

Daggermaw wrote:

Eh, do you perfer i continuing making a deal between our financial state or background ? If you insist , you are on.

No, I have no interest in your background other than you are canadian and going emo 24/7, but you asked me about mine to suggest that I was young and therefore uneducated and perhaps poor, and when I provided evidence to the contrary you had nothing to say to this.

And yet you still don't respond to my comments directly either.

When i asked your back ground, i dont care ihow muhc money you have. Merely wanted to see if you
have grown up knowing this type of stuff.


I on the other hand cannot say the same. Which is more why im absolutely against this issue in this thread.

I grew up along uncles / familes / acquaintance that dealt in this type of stuff. ( Now is this what you wanted me to say all along
starting from the other thread you always follow me in? ) And yes im younger than you, and i dont see what i need to make a big deal out of that either
hence i didnt say anything else?

Now i'll leave you another *saying from my country. A good politician / government = always poor.

I like the bikers and biker theme.

Which means they do exist . There is no question about it.

Im not sure why daggermaw expect counterfeit goods to have large shinny labels of
" WTS COUNTERFEITED WARHAMMER ITAMZ!"

*face palm and goes emo.

I never said there weren't counterfeits out there. I just think they're harder to find than you make it out. I don't believe there's this vast underground organization that does this. I think it's probably just a guy here and there that does it.

Does going emo mean your cutting your wrists?

Daggermaw wrote:

The counterfeit rings exist whether you like it or not. And its not specific as in "we'll rip toy companies off"
Its more basic.

And I say it doesn't exist whether you like it or not. See how that works. The burden of proof is on you to prove that it exists.

As i say again daggermaw, you think too small of how counterfeiter rings works.

I do think too small, because I don't believe there's this huge counterfeting ring whose leaders couldn't ever be caught it's so huge.

That sounds like the plot to a G.I.Joe episode.

Cocaine and army men, that's where the money is, grey gold my man!

(This picture just became 10x funnier too.)

LunaHound wrote:I on the other hand cannot say the same. Which is more why im absolutely against this issue in this thread.

I grew up along uncles / familes / acquaintance that dealt in this type of stuff. ( Now is this what you wanted me to say all along
starting from the other thread you always follow me in? ) And yes im younger than you, and i dont see what i need to make a big deal out of that either
hence i didnt say anything else?

Now i'll leave you another *saying from my country. A good politician / government = always poor.

I don't mean this discrimantory, because you have provided a very mature argument and your age hasn't come in to it, Lets have this conversation again, when you've reached +30, have a Mortgage, a Car Loan, and all the bills that go with runing a house, wife, children, and your paying for all this yourself without support from Mum & Dad. Then, lets see if you'll turn down the oppertunity to save a few £££ by buying some counterfeit models.

Daggermaw wrote:

Which means they do exist . There is no question about it.

Im not sure why daggermaw expect counterfeit goods to have large shinny labels of
" WTS COUNTERFEITED WARHAMMER ITAMZ!"

*face palm and goes emo.

I never said there weren't counterfeits out there. I just think they're harder to find than you make it out. I don't believe there's this vast underground organization that does this. I think it's probably just a guy here and there that does it.

Does going emo mean your cutting your wrists?

oh , emo for me = *face palm, and no i dont cut myself.
Real criminal rings produce products that even WE cant tell the difference. Like i said a ring isnt just made for warhammer.
How long has it been since SM was caught.... 5-10 years now? Even now they still have existing CDs in legit stores, and customers
still have no idea they were fakes ( too well done )

You have to know , huge rings controls / have access to pretty much any machine they need . They also dont need to
tell their partners what they need it for. Its " you scratch my back now, and i'll scratch yours" , " i need to produce,
say 20,000 box this size, 20,000 prints of this size , use this plastic seals in this dimension , and use these mold prints to produce
say around 100,000 copies.

And in countries in asia , you bet paying someone $10,000 to take a fall is MORE than easy.
And lets just say the one that took the fall wouldnt be random criminal, would be gov worker.

I always tell the truth. Even when I lie.

TheSecretSquig wrote:

LunaHound wrote:I on the other hand cannot say the same. Which is more why im absolutely against this issue in this thread.

I grew up along uncles / familes / acquaintance that dealt in this type of stuff. ( Now is this what you wanted me to say all along
starting from the other thread you always follow me in? ) And yes im younger than you, and i dont see what i need to make a big deal out of that either
hence i didnt say anything else?

Now i'll leave you another *saying from my country. A good politician / government = always poor.

I don't mean this discrimantory, because you have provided a very mature argument and your age hasn't come in to it, Lets have this conversation again, when you've reached +30, have a Mortgage, a Car Loan, and all the bills that go with runing a house, wife, children, and your paying for all this yourself without support from Mum & Dad. Then, lets see if you'll turn down the oppertunity to save a few £££ by buying some counterfeit models.

I have said before, and i will say again. I use paper in place of plastic miniature regiments in warhammer. Not because i cannot afford it , not because i cant find counterfeits.
But i know warhammer is a hobby for me, and i dont need to do *wrong just to satisfy my "wants and needs.

I do have respect for you as fellow dakka member, but i feel when we step into this thread , we are all naked here , so forgive my blunt replies and opinions.

Granted me and my mom paid off our mortgage 2 years ago , but that did nothing to change my spending habits. ( mom is horrible as always )
If i cant afford something thats not a necessity ( when i mean afford i mean is it worth it ) , i'll try to not be lured into it. And i certainly wont look at illegal means to acquiring them.

Daggermaw wrote:I always tell the truth. Even when I lie.

Back to 4chan you troll.

Daggermaw wrote:I always tell the truth. Even when I lie.

Love it

oh , emo for me = *face palm, and no i dont cut myself.
Real criminal rings produce products that even WE cant tell the difference. Like i said a ring isnt just made for warhammer.
How long has it been since SM was caught.... 5-10 years now? Even now they still have existing CDs in legit stores, and customers
still have no idea they were fakes ( too well done )

You have to know , huge rings controls / have access to pretty much any machine they need . They also dont need to
tell their partners what they need it for. Its " you scratch my back now, and i'll scratch yours" , " i need to produce,
say 20,000 box this size, 20,000 prints of this size , use this plastic seals in this dimension , and use these mold prints to produce
say around 100,000 copies.

And in countries in asia , you bet paying someone $10,000 to take a fall is MORE than easy.
And lets just say the one that took the fall wouldnt be random criminal, would be gov worker.

Dude, now your starting to not make sense. Earlier you said that fakes were so easy to spot you were suprised I've never seen them. Now your saying that the "cabal" can make then so good we can't even tell the difference. Which is it?

I still don't know what SM is.

I don't really know what all the other stuff is but it sounds mostly like conjecture.

Back to 4chan you troll.

I don't know what that is either. You need to start making some sense.

I was just throwing out a Tony Montana quote after that awesome image.

LunaHound wrote:Granted me and my mom paid off our mortgage 2 years ago , but that did nothing to change my spending habits. ( mom is horrible as always )
If i cant afford something thats not a necessity ( when i mean afford i mean is it worth it ) , i'll try to not be lured into it. And i certainly wont look at illegal means to acquiring them.

Your argument is based on a situation you've never been in. At the moment you'r supported by family, who buy you what you want. You mentioned about my painting. At the moment, my painting is keeping juice in the car, as work is just about breaking even with all my other rising bills. If someone came along and offered me a cut price 'x' army, I'd take it. I wouldn't go looking for it, nor would I sell it on, or sell it on as real.

I really don't think that the counterfeiting is as widespread on GW models as made out, if it was, I'd have come accross more by now. I also thik we are once again, going off topic, so as they say in Dragons Den, "I'm Out".

Daggermaw wrote:

oh , emo for me = *face palm, and no i dont cut myself.
Real criminal rings produce products that even WE cant tell the difference. Like i said a ring isnt just made for warhammer.
How long has it been since SM was caught.... 5-10 years now? Even now they still have existing CDs in legit stores, and customers
still have no idea they were fakes ( too well done )

You have to know , huge rings controls / have access to pretty much any machine they need . They also dont need to
tell their partners what they need it for. Its " you scratch my back now, and i'll scratch yours" , " i need to produce,
say 20,000 box this size, 20,000 prints of this size , use this plastic seals in this dimension , and use these mold prints to produce
say around 100,000 copies.

And in countries in asia , you bet paying someone $10,000 to take a fall is MORE than easy.
And lets just say the one that took the fall wouldnt be random criminal, would be gov worker.

Dude, now your starting to not make sense. Earlier you said that fakes were so easy to spot you were suprised I've never seen them. Now your saying that the "cabal" can make then so good we can't even tell the difference. Which is it?

I still don't know what SM is.

I don't really know what all the other stuff is but it sounds mostly like conjecture.

Easy to spot as in if you have seen the product in person you'll know.

Hard to spot as in its easy to shop a photo that is used in an auction. Especially when painted over.

Remeber one thing mister, Not all deals are always done online.

TheSecretSquig wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Granted me and my mom paid off our mortgage 2 years ago , but that did nothing to change my spending habits. ( mom is horrible as always )
If i cant afford something thats not a necessity ( when i mean afford i mean is it worth it ) , i'll try to not be lured into it. And i certainly wont look at illegal means to acquiring them.

Your argument is based on a situation you've never been in. At the moment you'r supported by family, who buy you what you want. You mentioned about my painting. At the moment, my painting is keeping juice in the car, as work is just about breaking even with all my other rising bills. If someone came along and offered me a cut price 'x' army, I'd take it. I wouldn't go looking for it, nor would I sell it on, or sell it on as real.

I really don't think that the counterfeiting is as widespread on GW models as made out, if it was, I'd have come accross more by now. I also thik we are once again, going off topic, so as they say in Dragons Den, "I'm Out".

Well, my mom dont work, dad divorced and left us years ago.

So ya im pretty much alone in this. I'll tell you yes, i never been in the same situation as you "as provider for family"

but i know myself, as in i will know to choose or not choose "my hobby" to something that suits my budget.


Know what i mean?

Easy to spot as in if you have seen the product in person you'll know.

Hard to spot as in its easy to shop a photo that is used in an auction. Especially when painted over.

Remeber one thing mister, Not all deals are always done online.

Your saying some of these counterfeits are available in stores? Like in FLGS? Wow the "cabal" IS more powerful than I thought.

And please daggermaw is fine, mister is my dad's name.

LunaHound wrote:but i know myself, as in i will know to choose or not choose "my hobby" to something that suits my budget.

Know what i mean?

I know what you mean and I'm not attempting to judge anyones character. All I am saying is that you cannot predict what you will do in a situation in which you have never been in.

All I am saying is that you cannot predict what you will do in a situation in which you have never been in.

That's what I used to tell my Marines.

Daggermaw wrote:

Easy to spot as in if you have seen the product in person you'll know.

Hard to spot as in its easy to shop a photo that is used in an auction. Especially when painted over.

Remeber one thing mister, Not all deals are always done online.

Your saying some of these counterfeits are available in stores? Like in FLGS? Wow the "cabal" IS more powerful than I thought.

And please daggermaw is fine, mister is my dad's name.

If you wish any response from me, try to not twist my words k?

Now, direct counterfeited products are not sold straight into n.american GW shops,
surely you arnt seriouse about asking something so rediculous?

One easy /fast way = counterfeit / paint / sell painted regiment.

other way, mail the casted to n.american sellers thats linked to them
and sold most commonly as bits / LE items.

This thread is fantastic.

If you wish any response from me, try to not twist my words k?

Now, direct counterfeited products are not sold straight into n.american GW shops,
surely you arnt seriouse about asking something so rediculous?

One easy /fast way = counterfeit / paint / sell painted regiment.

other way, mail the casted to n.american sellers thats linked to them
and sold most commonly as bits / LE items.

I'm not twisting your words I'm trying to understand what your typing. You've gone from having well worded arguments to typing half sentences with / and = in them. I'm having a hard time understanding you.

I didn't think you were saying there are counterfeits in GW stores but you said not all deals are done online, so I have to take that to mean that they appear in FLGS without the vendor realizing they're fakes.

How do you know all this? You make it seem as if it's all common knowledge, and if it is excuse me, and point to somewhere where I might educate myself on the underground world of miniatures counterfeiting.

Its simple:

Q: Is recasting GW's models in any shape or form legally wrong?
A: Yes

Q: Is recasting GW's models in any shape or form morally wrong?
A: Grey Area - depends on your character

Q: Is ther a large underground counterfeiting organisation, copying GW models?
A: No.

Daggermaw wrote:

If you wish any response from me, try to not twist my words k?

Now, direct counterfeited products are not sold straight into n.american GW shops,
surely you arnt seriouse about asking something so rediculous?

One easy /fast way = counterfeit / paint / sell painted regiment.

other way, mail the casted to n.american sellers thats linked to them
and sold most commonly as bits / LE items.

I'm not twisting your words I'm trying to understand what your typing. You've gone from having well worded arguments to typing half sentences with / and = in them. I'm having a hard time understanding you.

I didn't think you were saying there are counterfeits in GW stores but you said not all deals are done online, so I have to take that to mean that they appear in FLGS without the vendor realizing they're fakes.

How do you know all this? You make it seem as if it's all common knowledge, and if it is excuse me, and point to somewhere where I might educate myself on the underground world of miniatures counterfeiting.

I'll trust your words that you arnt just trolling , so i'll be more clear in my replies since i was getting tired of this conversation. But you asked nicely this time
so i'll take my time to answer.

I have been thinking about your replies , i asked myself why do you have such a hard time believing me if you arnt just trolling me.

Then i realized something that i guess i have missed. First off, Unlike N.America or Europe , GW are not as widely distributed by those official GW shops.

80-90% of the GW products are sold via hobby / model shops. Lets just say the store owners nor the customers care about it been legit.
Now i admit my english seriousely sucks and im getting tired of explaning with my bad english, so im going to go draw a diagram to help explain easier lol.

brb! drawing one now.

*also replying some before i brb.

TheSecretSquig wrote:
Q: Is ther a large underground counterfeiting organisation, copying GW models?
A: No.

Like i said earlier, there isnt a LARGE counterfeit ring that EXISTS just for sake of copying GW no.

buuuuuuuuuut. There are LARGE counterfeit rings that counterfeit numerous products and GW just happen to be
one of the 1% of the mass amount of counterfeit product they produce.

To be serious for a moment: Luna, you have got to be one of the nicest people on these boards, and the fact that you can still manage to be is a testament to your own personality. However, I really don't see where you get the idea that counterfeiting miniatures is some sort of massive criminal enterprise. The logistics and profit margins involved would make such a thing amazingly foolish. So much so that I can't ever see it happening on such a scale. Not to mention the fact that I see no proof to back up that belief. Maybe it just hasn't been shown to me, that's certainly possible, at the moment though I'd have to call shenanigans.

This is all doubly so for anything involving plastics and bitz, it's pointless to make an illegal business out of that. Resin and lead/pewter are at least simple to do.

But really, when I think of some guy trying to decide between selling army men or drugs, or even bootleg videos on the street corner, I'm not seeing him picking army men.

Though once again to turn the funny back on, the idea of Tony Montana giving his famous last speech with a desk full of Space Marines in the background makes me laugh way too much. Or a swat team kicking in the door Untouchables style as people scatter in an effort to flush the titans before they get to the stockroom. All the while conversations like this can be heard?

'Sir Sir! You've got to see this!'
'My God, he made Sisters of Battle too... You make me sick you son of a bitch.' *pistol whip to the face*
'Get this bastard out of here...'

Oh, cops must love Warhammer too as apparently all those confiscated items go missing, but they at least manage to keep some pot on hand to prosecute drug dealers.

So yeah. That being said, Luna, love having you on Dakka, but I'm just not seeing it. Please don't take any of this personally either, though you're probably one of the few internet people who wouldn't anyway.

stonefox wrote:This thread is fantastic.

QFT, with an additional QFT just to reinforce it

Neconilis wrote:To be serious for a moment: Luna, you have got to be one of the nicest people on these boards, and the fact that you can still manage to be is a testament to your own personality. However, I really don't see where you get the idea that counterfeiting miniatures is some sort of massive criminal enterprise. The logistics and profit margins involved would make such a thing amazingly foolish. So much so that I can't ever see it happening on such a scale. Not to mention the fact that I see no proof to back up that belief. Maybe it just hasn't been shown to me, that's certainly possible, at the moment though I'd have to call shenanigans.

This is all doubly so for anything involving plastics and bitz, it's pointless to make an illegal business out of that. Resin and lead/pewter are at least simple to do.

But really, when I think of some guy trying to decide between selling army men or drugs, or even bootleg videos on the street corner, I'm not seeing him picking army men.

Though once again to turn the funny back on, the idea of Tony Montana giving his famous last speech with a desk full of Space Marines in the background makes me laugh way too much. Or a swat team kicking in the door Untouchables style as people scatter in an effort to flush the titans before they get to the stockroom. All the while conversations like this can be heard?

'Sir Sir! You've got to see this!'
'My God, he made Sisters of Battle too... You make me sick you son of a bitch.' *pistol whip to the face*
'Get this bastard out of here...'

Oh, cops must love Warhammer too as apparently all those confiscated items go missing, but they at least manage to keep some pot on hand to prosecute drug dealers.

So yeah. That being said, Luna, love having you on Dakka, but I'm just not seeing it. Please don't take any of this personally either, though you're probably one of the few internet people who wouldn't anyway.

Thank you for your kind words, i really appreciate it.

But i insist on this despite my poor english / grammar etc etc because i personally have seen , as well as know people
that does this . *back to drawing.

GW already sued and won in US District Court.

GAMES WORKSHOP LTD., Plaintiff, v. BRIAN BEAL, Defendant.

Case No. 04-0013-CV-W-FJG

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF MISSOURI, WESTERN DIVISION

2006 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 22525

Hmm...
"Goblins-Goodies" was out of Missouri. If I recall correctly, so was Mac-Ace. Is this case one of those two infamous commercial recasters? Does anyone know the details of the case?

TR

Can't wait to see this drawing! I'm just glad this is still a mature debate, and would love to continue this in either the pub, or the gaming table. But life sucks, and I've a 5am start tomorrow morning, which begins with a 3 hour drive. Nice!

So I'm off to bed.

PS. Nice talking to you all, but Luna, Is your Avatar your own work, or copied from a Manga cartoon ? (Sorry, couldn't resist! )

LunaHound wrote:
Thank you for your kind words, i really appreciate it.

But i insist on this despite my poor english / grammar etc etc because i personally have seen , as well as know people
that does this . *back to drawing.

You're more than welcome, and if English isn't your primary language that could certainly be part of the problem we all have in understanding one another. I'll also happily look at whatever evidence you can point me and others to. If I'm wrong I'll admit it, but I don't see it atm.

I will now allow you to get back to shooping da whoop =)

That'll help me explain things more smoothly i guess.

darn... shouldnt have linked the green line to the orange circles lol
just realized that could complicate things.

green = painted / finished products thats been shipped out to the world
as generally painted armies.

orange = for example large shipments of metal / resin ( easiest for forgeworld / armor cast )
then re distributed among online auctions for example ebay.