LunaHound wrote:You tell me :"D if they can make these , forge world is NOTHING compared to it.
Both complexity and detail and size.
That's nothing:
Fafnir, with all due respect, you really don't know what you're comparing against.
That Ex-S Gundam you linked is only 2 (3?) feet tall and is relatively undetailed - it's on flying stand, so looks taller.
The Jagd Mirage "Twin Tower" that Luna linked to stands just as tall, but is far more detailed (per Luna's post). However *each* of the two cannon on its back stands about 6 feet tall...
Indy Stockists, since they remove the more extravagant of GW's costs, actually make GW the most profit.
And hey, Murder is wrong, copying models, except in extreme circumstances (no longer available, stupidly rare and you want an army of them, with no viable conversion method) is also wrong.
But Daggermaw is yet another mindless little Troll on Dakka. How they've not been banned I don't know. Never thought I'd miss the Warseer standards!
I see counterfeiting and buying counterfeits as totally illegal but ok for me to do because I have a unique moral code. And my unique moral code says to me that I don't care if GW gets my money as long as I get what I want.
Now I realize that if everyone had this view, then GW would go out of business. I do not under any circumstance, want this to happen. That is why I rely on 95% or more of the rest of you people to make sure you give lots of money to GW so they won't go out of business.
I have no loyalty to any company, because they have no loyalty to me.
Now I wish someone would please provide some proof of all of this counterfeiting, so I can go buy some cheaper models!
Forget it FU, I've been trying for hours to find the secret base of the GW counterfeiters so I could pick up some models. But it seems that alas it doesn't exist.
But Daggermaw is yet another mindless little Troll on Dakka. How they've not been banned I don't know. Never thought I'd miss the Warseer standards!
tell me about it doc, mods find it too much trouble to do thier job, most rather ignore it and hope they go away.
that and they like to ignore thier PM's that may cause them to do some work.
allthough, when a few trolls hit the alert mod button they are straight into action.
may have to get myself a seer account and try it out.
But Daggermaw is yet another mindless little Troll on Dakka. How they've not been banned I don't know. Never thought I'd miss the Warseer standards!
Another mindless troll? Need I remind you that I came up with and sponsored the you get to convert the copta contest that ran a few months ago? And donated my own money to provide half of the prize?
so its fine to rip other people of to make some quick money?
doc, i do mean it as an attack on a few mods who do know who they are.
just seems they rather ignore everything.
ive found 1 mod so far who actually helps out and does his job 100%, but he isnt on alot recently.
I see counterfeiting and buying counterfeits as totally illegal but ok for me to do because I have a unique moral code. And my unique moral code says to me that I don't care if GW gets my money as long as I get what I want.
Now I realize that if everyone had this view, then GW would go out of business. I do not under any circumstance, want this to happen. That is why I rely on 95% or more of the rest of you people to make sure you give lots of money to GW so they won't go out of business.
I have no loyalty to any company, because they have no loyalty to me.
Now I wish someone would please provide some proof of all of this counterfeiting, so I can go buy some cheaper models!
Forget it FU, I've been trying for hours to find the secret base of the GW counterfeiters so I could pick up some models. But it seems that alas it doesn't exist.
It does exist and you bet i'll never let you have access to it or else i'll be just as guilty.
Nice try. Im nice enough to let you know whats going on , least you should do is appreciate it.
This whole NU UH I WONT BELIEVE YOU TILL I GET TO TOUCH IT attitude of your is getting agitating.
Believe what you want as i said, many of us already know / encounter / ran into counterfeited products and counterfeiters .
All your whining and disbelieve will not change the truth , take care.
Capitalism is about free enterprise, and the very reasons it is illegal to mass copy GW stuff is part of said free enterprise. Their efforts are protected to stop idiotic scrotes making a quick buck at their expense, and blackening the company reputation with second rate knock offs.
The issue is of enforceability, not definition. Counterfeiting is illegal in the UK, the US, and as far as I know, Canada.
He doesn't have to justify his position because, although it is against the law (notice I didn't say "wrong"), there is almost no chance whatsoever of his ever suffering negative repercussions.
Law without law enforcement inherently leads to lawlessness.
Your conversation will go nowhere because you will say "What you are doing is illegal" and then he will say "So come catch me doing it".
Now, attempting to appeal to morality will also fail, because he obviously doesn't see counterfeiting as compromising his morals to an unacceptable degree. You're arguing from an absolutist standpoint, whereas he is taking the relativist approach. If you don't want to be fed a turd-pie and told it tastes like honey cake, then don't visit the bakery that orders large shipments of manure.
Capitalism is about free enterprise, and the very reasons it is illegal to mass copy GW stuff is part of said free enterprise. Their efforts are protected to stop idiotic scrotes making a quick buck at their expense, and blackening the company reputation with second rate knock offs.
As far as I know Information Protection has nothing to do with Free Enterprise. The assumption of pure capitalism is that the purchasing public will see the second-rate knock-offs of the idiotic scrotes as inherently inferior, and will then gravitate towards the authentics. Obviously that doesn't work and IP results as businesses lobby to protect their wares. Unrestricted Capitalism is simply economic Darwinism. Whoever can accrue the most money wins, and fairness be damned.
there was a guy on here not too long ago who was re-casting tau suits, his thread got locked, ebay auctions taken down.
so if its fine why go to those lengths to stop it?
tell me about it doc, mods find it too much trouble to do their job, most rather ignore it and hope they go away.
that and they like to ignore thier PM's that may cause them to do some work.
although, when a few trolls hit the alert mod button they are straight into action.
may have to get myself a seer account and try it out.
I don't see you writing anything different than Daggermaw, except that you are whining that someone is trolling because you have ceased to be able to define your argument. It's like if someone farted in a room, and maybe you did it or not, but you blame someone else to make sure no one blames you. "Daggermaw is a troll". Oh, my god, you 're the first one to call "troll"! Now no one will ever be able to call you a troll! Well, you've heard the term "whomever smelt it, dealt it"? Well...buddy..."you smelt it".
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:No Daggermaw, that is petty thieving.
Capitalism is about free enterprise, and the very reasons it is illegal to mass copy GW stuff is part of said free enterprise. Their efforts are protected to stop idiotic scrotes making a quick buck at their expense, and blackening the company reputation with second rate knock offs.
Dagger's view on the world is pretty twisted, i wouldnt try anymore.
Capitalism is about free enterprise, and the very reasons it is illegal to mass copy GW stuff is part of said free enterprise. Their efforts are protected to stop idiotic scrotes making a quick buck at their expense, and blackening the company reputation with second rate knock offs.
I agree, just being a little flip.
But the people selling OOP minis on ebay have no Rights to sell them. If someone came along and was selling ripped off versions of what they were selling they couldn't sue them in the least.
actually i wasnt the 1st one to call him a troll FU, read the thread, you might learn some common sense along the way, aswell as knowing what has been said so far.
dagger, once again, what would you do if someone stole your wallet or mugged you?
The issue is of enforceability, not definition. Counterfeiting is illegal in the UK, the US, and as far as I know, Canada.
He doesn't have to justify his position because, although it is against the law (notice I didn't say "wrong"), there is almost no chance whatsoever of his ever suffering negative repercussions.
Law without law enforcement inherently leads to lawlessness.
Your conversation will go nowhere because you will say "What you are doing is illegal" and then he will say "So come catch me doing it".
Now, attempting to appeal to morality will also fail, because he obviously doesn't see counterfeiting as compromising his morals to an unacceptable degree. You're arguing from an absolutist standpoint, whereas he is taking the relativist approach. If you don't want to be fed a turd-pie and told it tastes like honey cake, then don't visit the bakery that orders large shipments of manure.
But the people selling OOP minis on ebay have no Rights to sell them. If someone came along and was selling ripped off versions of what they were selling they couldn't sue them in the least.
yes, those people do have rights.
all they need to do is report the auction to ebay or trading standards.
problem solved.
allthough, from what you are saying dagger, its fair game to steal from someone or mug them, so with your little theory you shouldnt be allowed it back.
actually i wasnt the 1st one to call him a troll FU, read the thread, you might learn some common sense along the way, aswell as knowing what has been said so far.
And yet, I have several OOP models kicking around.
Just sold 10 painted original Harlequins to someone on this very board for a very reasonable price (and I KNOW I have more. Had three Death Jesters, and at least one Neural Pistol. Christ knows where they wound up.)
Consider them the same as antiques. Many antiques are valuable because they are rarely found in good nick. Take Claris Clift. Very famous Art Deco designer of Pottery, including Teasets. These were intended for use when designed, hence many examples have damage, either fairly extensive or fairly superficial which has an effect on their value.
Now, I could copy Claris Clift designs, and as long as I stick to the same technology used to produce them, and forge the marks accurately enough, I could make a killing. Is this fair on Antique dealers? Especially if I start churning out particularly rare sets. If there is no way to tell them apart, then the items become more common and the value plummets.
yes, those people do have rights.
all they need to do is report the auction to ebay or trading standards.
problem solved.
That's ebay exorcising it's rights not the people. If ebay didn't want to they wouldn't have to pull the auction down at the request of those individuals, only at the request of GW.
And if GW wanted to they could say noone but themselves can sell on ebay. Like i said the indivual seller has no legal rights on ebay.
Like if I knew someone next door was a thief, rapist or something, and I informed the Police who nicked them. Is that the Police cleaning up society alone, or me playing my own very important part?
Woohoo, I'm a Troll now too! I always dreamed, but never thought it would come true!
JD21290- I'm actually glad I made it to your ignore list. I find people who can speak their mind, but yet can not stand to hear other people's, amazing. Too bad you won't ever see what I write again because it bothers you so much...we could have been friends.
TO be fair, you are yet to add anything to the threads subject, other than just having a random pop at people, so the Troll tag is certainly applicable in this case.
i just find it funny that people seem to think because they can do something then its fine to do.
if everyone had that attitude the whole world would decend into chaos. (not WH chaos, just utter chaos)
TO be fair, you are yet to add anything to the threads subject, other than just having a random pop at people, so the Troll tag is certainly applicable in this case.
I wrote this-
What's still not proven is where are all of the counterfeit miniatures? I've been playing this game for 10 years, and have not seen one yet.
That has been the central point for over 5 pages. I want answers!
But if you want to call me a troll, fine, go ahead.
Whiiiiiiiiich Trench_raider, as I illustrated above for the hard of understanding, has already mentioned two former counterfeiters, and another poster has said he received, however unwittingly, a lot of counterfeit Steel Legion.
allthough, from what you are saying dagger, its fair game to steal from someone or mug them, so with your little theory you shouldnt be allowed it back.
i just like how thats ignored, simply because he contradicts what he has been saying.
i just find it funny that people seem to think because they can do something then its fine to do.
if everyone had that attitude the whole world would decend into chaos.
People like me, who think the way you described above...we rely on good little people like you to keep this world afloat. Nothing against you, but you're the sheep, not the shepherd. We're the wolves. Crappy analogy, I know. It's kinda like the circle of life...have you ever seen The Lion King? It's like that, but not animated.
Now, I don't want to come across as a Troll or an unfriendly person. I just want to know 2 things-
1. Where is the proof of all of this counterfeiting?
2. Why can most people not tell the difference between laws and morals?
i just find it funny that people seem to think because they can do something then its fine to do.
if everyone had that attitude the whole world would decend into chaos.
People like me, who think the way you described above...we rely on good little people like you to keep this world afloat. Nothing against you, but you're the sheep, not the shepherd. We're the wolves. Crappy analogy, I know. It's kinda like the circle of life...have you ever seen The Lion King? It's like that, but not animated.
Now, I don't want to come across as a Troll or an unfriendly person. I just want to know 2 things-
1. Where is the proof of all of this counterfeiting?
2. Why can most people not tell the difference between laws and morals?
No you are the biggest fish in a dried up pound.
Counterfeiting threads everywhere one in dakka somewhere , more in barter town , even more in FW forums.
Morals vs law? Laws are created to protect us from immoral / unjustified actions to us. Of course they are linked.
Also that circle of life thing... i love it!
Animals do it in necessity to survive , counterfeiter buyer do it to save themselves some $
for a hobby .
To stoop to an animals lvl to satisfy your desires ?
What the heck does the stolen wallet have to do with any of this? If someone copied your wallet and you still had yours you may not even notice or care. You're comparing apples and oranges there.
The gubment makes laws so people can make money off their ideas for a limited amount of time (patents, copyrights). Originally (in the US) it was 14 years. Now it's life of the author+70(?) years and keeps extending every time something Disney is going to come out of copyright. When it comes to corporate designs or miniature designs it's a little different I think but still things *eventually* fall out of copyright. The idea being that society is giving up their right (which is to just copy stuff willy-nilly) for a temporary period in order to encourage more people to make more stuff, which then eventually becomes public domain. Nowadays nothing ever seems to become public domain, and this relationship is broken.
Is this good or bad? I don't know. Realistically, if we didn't keep changing the laws, and we had the 14 year original rules (in the US), you'd be able to make all the Clarice Cliff knockoffs you wanted, you'd be able to cast all sorts of OOP warhammer miniatures, make all the mickey mouse smoking pot with bob marley t-shirts you wanted, copy all the led zepplin recordings you wanted, etc, and even sell them. With current laws, well, you can't - at least not for quite a while with most of these things. This doesn't actually make it morally wrong to do any of it, but it does make it illegal.
JD21290, Comparing stealing to copyright infringement is ridiculous and you can't be taken seriously in this discussion if you keep doing it. No offense but that seems more like a troll than what Daggermaw is doing. It's just not the same thing in any way. Now, I admit that copyright infringement+reselling is closer to stealing, but it's still not stealing, and in some cases probably should be allowed. GW loves to try to shut people down just for making things that vaguely look like they might be Spaze Marines, Hurr!
Daggermaw, you seem to be being at least a little purposefully obtuse. There are counterfeiters, they get shut down periodically and then they start back up elsewhere. GW goes after them pretty aggressively when they find them, which is partly why you don't see them cutting into GWs profits very much.
I love the general attitude of the arguments here.
"It doesnt exist or happen because it never happend to me!, or i never came across one!"
Anecdotal stories do not make evidence. Please show me a link to an e-bay auction. Or show me an impartial news story about the subject. I'm not even asking for proof of the international counterfeiting cartel, I just want to see counterfeit GW miniatures. That is the proof I ask for.
Until you satisfy the burden of proof upon you, you are not going to be believed.
You cannot necessarily tell, just by a picture if something knock off or not when it comes to models.
But considering GW have a policy whereby if you have been sold, they will swap you for the real deal, I'd say there is significant evidence it does go on.
What the heck does the stolen wallet have to do with any of this? If someone copied your wallet and you still had yours you may not even notice or care. You're comparing apples and oranges there.
i take it you have read my posts and daggers posts?
blah blah blah, long story short:
in doing so and re-casting models he is effectively stealing from other sellers / average people selling on ebay.
and not to mention taking GW's proffit.
he says stealing from them is fine.
so, using his theory that stealing is fine i asked him that question, he said he would take it back if it was stolen.
so, if stealing is fine, why can he take it back?
sellers being ripped of by casters cant take thier proffit back.
Edit: missed this part.
JD21290, Comparing stealing to copyright infringement is ridiculous and you can't be taken seriously in this discussion if you keep doing it. No offense but that seems more like a troll than what Daggermaw is doing. It's just not the same thing in any way. Now, I admit that copyright infringement+reselling is closer to stealing, but it's still not stealing, and in some cases probably should be allowed. GW loves to try to shut people down just for making things that vaguely look like they might be Spaze Marines, Hurr!
yes it is stealing, in effect you are taking someones origional model, making a copy of it and selling it on at a lower price to gain a proffit.
you have stolen the design / artwork of the model by re-casting it yourself.
you then lie as you sell it as an official product.
I agree that it is taking GWs profit, and it's wrong. I just don't agree that it is tantamount to taking someone's wallet - depriving someone of their ability to make their livelyhood off of IP is not the same as, well, stealing an object. It's similar, but not the same.
I completely agree that a response "I'd just take it back" is ridiculous trolling. I wasn't trying to say he's not being silly responding like that, just trying to separate stealing from IP infringement (both for personal use and for resale). IP infringement is not nearly as black and white. I think part of it was really intendd for Mad Doc and not you, I got some of the posts mixed up since it's a lot to read/skim.
But considering GW have a policy whereby if you have been sold, they will swap you for the real deal, I'd say there is significant evidence it does go on.
so I dug around and found this-
From the GW legal page on the offcial site-
4. Counterfeiting/Peer-to-Peer File Sharing
We are encountering people who counterfeit our miniatures and products more and more frequently. Counterfeiting is a crime in most countries worldwide. In addition to the other penalties, you can go to prison for counterfeiting. The same is true of peer-to-peer file sharing - if you have not paid for the material and you download it using peer-to-peer software, you are engaging in illegal activity. The same is true even if you already own a copy of the relevant Codex or Army Book. Please remember that Games Workshop does not produce its rule books or codices in electronic format - if you ever see any such material in electronic format, it is likely to be the product of criminal or infringing activity.
BE AWARE that we will happily spend money bringing counterfeiters and other infringers to justice, regardless of the cost. Such activities kill the hobby for everyone.
By way of background to this position, Games Workshop is the world's largest wargames and miniatures manufacturer. This has not come about overnight but rather as a result of over 20 years of hard work and the investment of considerable amounts of money into designing the best, most evocative, and detailed games and miniatures that we possibly can.
In a free market, anyone willing to invest the necessary time and effort is entitled to the same opportunities we had when we started out. We welcome such fair 'competition' - in fact, we don't even think of it as competition because it all helps to build the hobby.
However, sadly, there are an unscrupulous few who try to take a shortcut to success by copying the design of our games and models and trading on the goodwill we've built up over the years - these people are counterfeiters.
We therefore want to make it clear that Games Workshop will not tolerate counterfeiting of its products nor any other unauthorized use of its trade marks, trade dress, copyright material, or other intellectual property and always seeks the maximum civil and criminal penalties that the law allows.
What to do if you are the victim of counterfeiters
Sadly, the people that suffer most from counterfeiters are you guys - after all who wants to pay for a badly-cast fake?
What we suggest is that if you encounter a counterfeiter, get as much information as you can before you contact us: where you saw them, who was selling them, where they are being made, etc. If you can, buy a representative sample and GET A RECEIPT. If the products are indeed counterfeit, we will reimburse you for any postage costs and will try to replace any counterfeit with the genuine article (please be aware that this may not always be possible).
This is what I have been asking for. This is at least partial proof that counterfeiting exist, not impartial proof, but still proof enough for me.
all i was trying to do with that wallet post was prove that he simply says what will give him the best gain from a situation, he has double standards for others.
earlier on someone said they know its against the law, they said they knew it was wrong, but they allways get what they wanted, so it was fine to do.
Yes, GW is very aggressive and good at finding/stopping people who are counterfeiting. And of course they don't advertise as being counterfeit, so they're hard for a regular person to find (and avoid) which was the original purpose/point of this thread - most people don't buy them on purpose, they get them on accident. The people who do it on purpose more often seem to be either casting things themselves (for example, I have heard of people doing things like casting plasmaguns for their guys since they didn't get what they needed without buying 5 extra sprues). Or they are in non-western countries with more lax enforcement of IP laws - I may not be able to find a lot of fake stealth suits in China, they may not care about GW stuff....but I can find knockoff stuff up the wazoo when I go there.
lambadomy-
Fair enough. I understand the purpose of this thread, and as much as it has been fun to go off topic, I simply wanted some more substantial evidence of forgeries, not just anecdotal stories.
To the the entire thread- I really enjoyed the moral vs legal debate. I still wish I could find some cheap knockoffs!
Yes, GW is very aggressive and good at finding/stopping people who are counterfeiting. And of course they don't advertise as being counterfeit, so they're hard for a regular person to find (and avoid) which was the original purpose/point of this thread - most people don't buy them on purpose, they get them on accident. The people who do it on purpose more often seem to be either casting things themselves (for example, I have heard of people doing things like casting plasmaguns for their guys since they didn't get what they needed without buying 5 extra sprues). Or they are in non-western countries with more lax enforcement of IP laws - I may not be able to find a lot of fake stealth suits in China, they may not care about GW stuff....but I can find knockoff stuff up the wazoo when I go there.
Ah, when you are there, find the painting studios / hobby stores ( resin shops mostly )
you'll see the items. Granted if you are asian >.> and if they trust you enough to sell you the counterfeited products...
good tip to make them show you? tempt them by saying something like " hi i want to buy $1000 USD worth of warhammer stuff,
can i see them please?"
FU 2000 wrote:People like me, who think the way you described above...we rely on good little people like you to keep this world afloat. Nothing against you, but you're the sheep, not the shepherd. We're the wolves.
Oh man. Totally not trolling here you guys.
I'm a big scary wolf and you're a bunch of good little sheep...
GW does more then that. They kill it even before the child grows into a threat.
Example?
Incursion.
Example?
The Titans and vehicles from Armorcast and the guy that made those castle titans.
They have a full staff of lawyers on retainer that post out cease and desist orders to people whoever have so much as a hint at the 40K related stuff.
As for comparison to taking from someones wallet? No.
The artist/ sculpter/ writer made the work. GW as a company takes that and makes profits under its umbrella.
The one that really loses is the consumer- Example?
The kid that buys a fake bunch and goes to the local GW shop to get threatned that his stuff would be broken by the Redshirt.
We collectivly all lose when the prices, which are already pretty high, get even higher. We then get even more restrictions placed upon us, ( as in your local tourny telling you that you can only use GW models in your army, and no proxy's, scratchbuilds, substitutions or other company minis may be used.
If they could get away with it, the could easily say "ONLY GW Paints can be used and only painted with GW brushes should grace our beloved PAINTED MINI's are allowed."
I have seen some fakes out there. It isn't a large problem, but it is most likely a internet based sales issue that can easily become a major issue, seeing that CHINA doesn't give one Grots butt about quality control standards, materials, or slave labor. Asian countries are probibly the most known, but it happens in the states as well from Ma and Pa shops, who will take advantage of you if they get it into thier head that they can get away with it, or your local buddy who goes and resincasts his own armys of standard template models that they made out of GW originals, molded in the basement.
Im sure some of the ones squacking the loudest are the ones worried. The bottom line end result is that WE ALL SUFFER from copied products.
Ask the kid that gets sick from used hazardous materials, or the kid that gets his butt kicked when he goes into his local tourny and wins with the fakes, then there is the issue of people not buying the originals, then the prices increase to make up for the lost profits, thereby penalizing the rest of the community.
Counterfit mini's are one of those "It is what it is" things, but keep that in mind that just because you can do a thing doesn't make it a smart move.
it is funny that gw's counterfitting was all about sharing and selling not for personal use. why because if i make a million titan copies and they never leave my possession. it is next to impossible to prove they have suffered from my use of their IP.
skkipper wrote:it is funny that gw's counterfitting was all about sharing and selling not for personal use. why because if i make a million titan copies and they never leave my possession. it is next to impossible to prove they have suffered from my use of their IP.
then its 1 million titan worth of sales they wont be getting from you.
Are you even trying anymore? whether they know or not doesnt make it right.
You do know everytime an item for example Titans are released , before that they have to put money
into planning , making molds , getting it copy righted and other stuff just to list a few.
and if everyone counterfits their own , and GW doesnt get any profit from it , its not just they gained no money from you,
its they also lost what they invested to put the titan into production!
@JD i've responded to your question twice already but i'll type it out here again for those people that don't take the time to read all the posts.
If someone took my wallet/mugged me I would take it back or not allow it to be taken in the first place.
And if someone did take my wallet, good for them. I obviously walked down the street or couldn't defend myself. Yeah it's unfair but life is unfair.
@lunahound we've been talking in circles for hours now and the real deal is you still don't understand the difference between laws and morals, you should look it up
Daggermaw wrote:JD just to remind you the use of the Blood Angels Chapter logo is against GW IP.
GTFO i just phoned them 7 pm for me HAH , its 100% fine to use
GW icons as avatar aslong as we dont go around claiming we are the original artist that made it.
Dashofpepper wrote:This conversation has gone a lot of different directions. =p
Guys, I think its important to remember that the same principle applies in all markets: Just because someone bought a fake or a counterfeit doesn't mean that the original producer lost money.
If Joe X buys a 50% marked down duplicated GW model to add to his collection, that doesn't mean that GW loses revenue. There was no sign or guarantee that Joe X was going to buy from GW in the first place.
not sure if serious o_< ....
Even if they buy it from online shops that carries GW items, aslong as is legit, then part of the sales DO
go to GW.
Luna, you're missing my point.
Even if they buy it from online shops, etc....that is not the alternative.
When someone downloads a song for free from the internet, it doesn't translate into lost income for the music industry because there was no guarantee that the downloader was going to purchase it in the first place. Given a choice between buying it or getting it free, they would choose free. Given a choice between paying $1 for it and not having it, they very well may have chosen to not have it.
The same applies here. Someone buying counterfeit models, or making their own doesn't translate into lost revenue for GW - there's no way of showing that these "pirates" would have purchased legitimate products in the first place.
Grot 6 wrote:I have seen some fakes out there. It isn't a large problem, but it is most likely a internet based sales issue that can easily become a major issue, seeing that CHINA doesn't give one Grots butt about quality control standards, materials, or slave labor.
How the hell did suddenly China become the problem? Counterfeits are a global "problem", not a Chinese one.
China produces a huge number of precision components that feed into computers, automobiles, aircraft, etc. These items are equal to, or better than *anything* else in the world. That's why Boeing, Honda, Dell, etc. all do business in China. If the quality were slapdash, it wouldn't happen.
Also, if I were to set a Chinese class 1 fake Rolex next to a Swiss original, I'd bet the value of the fake that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Chinese QC is very good, after all, most "fakes" are based on mechanical things that aren't particularly difficult to duplicate. Either that, or they're built on identical production lines using the OEM factory spec. In most cases, the only real difference is that the OEM doesn't get the profits or royalties.
Finally, slave labor? You mean like African Blood Diamonds? Or perhaps South American narcotics? Most Chinese factories are staffed by young adults, who are capable and resourceful enough to get off the farm, earn some money to send back home.
The Chinese factories operate pretty much like any other entrepenurial capitalist system. And by comparison, from all accounts it's probably far more benign and enlightened than what the US and UK had when they transitioned from agrarian to industrial...
Avatars and similar monikers are now commonplace on nearly every forum or chat program that you come across. As cool as they may be, they can cause problems if the use our trademarks since we need to maintain the distinctiveness of our trademarks in relation to their origin.
If you want to use avatars and similar monikers, create them yourself and credit the origins of the IP in your message sign off.
I know I'm being a Devil's Advocate here, but some people have been claiming total moral and legal conformity on this thread. I just want to make sure we all understand how easy it is to cross over the line. JD did nothing "wrong", but he certainly did something "illegal" by not "crediting the origins of the IP in your message sign off". For someone who implied that they never stole a pen from work...this is close to a felony!
GTFO i just phoned them 7 pm for me HAH , its 100% fine to use
GW icons as avatar aslong as we dont go around claiming we are the original artist that made it.
Wrong again luna hound you need to do your fact checking, I don't care who you talked to. Anyone that you talked to at 7pm is not authorized to grant you legal rights to their product.
Here we are per the Games Workshop IP rules:
AVATARS
Avatars and similar monikers are now commonplace on nearly every forum or chat program that you come across. As cool as they may be, they can cause problems if the use our trademarks since we need to maintain the distinctiveness of our trademarks in relation to their origin.
If you want to use avatars and similar monikers, create them yourself and credit the origins of the IP in your message sign off.
Dashofpepper wrote:This conversation has gone a lot of different directions. =p
Guys, I think its important to remember that the same principle applies in all markets: Just because someone bought a fake or a counterfeit doesn't mean that the original producer lost money.
If Joe X buys a 50% marked down duplicated GW model to add to his collection, that doesn't mean that GW loses revenue. There was no sign or guarantee that Joe X was going to buy from GW in the first place.
not sure if serious o_< ....
Even if they buy it from online shops that carries GW items, aslong as is legit, then part of the sales DO
go to GW.
Luna, you're missing my point.
Even if they buy it from online shops, etc....that is not the alternative.
When someone downloads a song for free from the internet, it doesn't translate into lost income for the music industry because there was no guarantee that the downloader was going to purchase it in the first place. Given a choice between buying it or getting it free, they would choose free. Given a choice between paying $1 for it and not having it, they very well may have chosen to not have it.
The same applies here. Someone buying counterfeit models, or making their own doesn't translate into lost revenue for GW - there's no way of showing that these "pirates" would have purchased legitimate products in the first place.
Oh i do understand what you mean. But like all business, everything they invest in (titan for example ),
they consider the variable of how much profit they'll make from it.
Know what i mean? If counterfeiter interferes with the variable enough and GW end up not making enough sales to make the
original investment into manufacturing the titan , it'll be a very WTF situation for GW.
I know I'm being a Devil's Advocate here, but some people have been claiming total moral and legal conformity on this thread. I just want to make sure we all understand how easy it is to cross over the line. JD did nothing "wrong", but he certainly did something "illegal" by not "crediting the origins of the IP in your message sign off". For someone who implied that they never stole a pen from work...this is close to a felony!
I totally agree I think the only real problem here is that some people cannot accept that other might have a different moral set, and persist on ramming their views down other people throats.
Dashofpepper wrote:When someone downloads a song for free from the internet, it doesn't translate into lost income for the music industry because there was no guarantee that the downloader was going to purchase it in the first place. Given a choice between buying it or getting it free, they would choose free. Given a choice between paying $1 for it and not having it, they very well may have chosen to not have it.
The same applies here. Someone buying counterfeit models, or making their own doesn't translate into lost revenue for GW - there's no way of showing that these "pirates" would have purchased legitimate products in the first place.
First you say there's no guarantee of lost income, then you say that it doesn't translate to lost income.
It does translate to lost income, for counterfeited models or for stolen music, because in some cases - many cases, actually - it is lost income.
If it's not worth the money to buy the song or the model, you can do without.
If it's not worth the money to buy the song or the model, you can do without.
Shouldn't you have written?- "If it's not worth the money to buy the song or the model, I can do without."
Because, frankly, for me personally...it's- "If it's not worth the money to buy the song or the model, I will download/counterfeit it".
Please differentiate your views from what you want others to think.
No, my friend, you can do without.
can1 /kæn; unstressed kən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kan; unstressed kuhn] Show IPA Pronunciation
auxiliary verb and verb, present singular 1st person can, 2nd can or (Archaic) canst, 3rd can, present plural can; past singular 1st person could, 2nd could or (Archaic) couldst, 3rd could, past plural could. For auxiliary verb: imperative, infinitive, and participles lacking. For verb (Obsolete): imperative can; infinitive can; past participle could; present participle cun⋅ning.
–auxiliary verb 1. to be able to; have the ability, power, or skill to: She can solve the problem easily, I'm sure.
2. to know how to: He can play chess, although he's not particularly good at it.
3. to have the power or means to: A dictator can impose his will on the people.
4. to have the right or qualifications to: He can change whatever he wishes in the script.
5. may; have permission to: Can I speak to you for a moment?
6. to have the possibility: A coin can land on either side.
Grot 6 wrote:I have seen some fakes out there. It isn't a large problem, but it is most likely a internet based sales issue that can easily become a major issue, seeing that CHINA doesn't give one Grots butt about quality control standards, materials, or slave labor.
How the hell did suddenly China become the problem? Counterfeits are a global "problem", not a Chinese one.
China produces a huge number of precision components that feed into computers, automobiles, aircraft, etc. These items are equal to, or better than *anything* else in the world. That's why Boeing, Honda, Dell, etc. all do business in China. If the quality were slapdash, it wouldn't happen.
Also, if I were to set a Chinese class 1 fake Rolex next to a Swiss original, I'd bet the value of the fake that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Chinese QC is very good, after all, most "fakes" are based on mechanical things that aren't particularly difficult to duplicate. Either that, or they're built on identical production lines using the OEM factory spec. In most cases, the only real difference is that the OEM doesn't get the profits or royalties.
Finally, slave labor? You mean like African Blood Diamonds? Or perhaps South American narcotics? Most Chinese factories are staffed by young adults, who are capable and resourceful enough to get off the farm, earn some money to send back home.
The Chinese factories operate pretty much like any other entrepenurial capitalist system. And by comparison, from all accounts it's probably far more benign and enlightened than what the US and UK had when they transitioned from agrarian to industrial...
Calm down and read the rest of the post before you get all spastic about it. China is in the news here latley for the quality control issues, as I already said.
Its an internet problem that is bound to get larger, as I already said.
More of a problem because of a larger Manufacturing base, but Ma and Pa shops in the states are as much of a problem and we all get shafted in the long run... as I already said.
Of course, if you want to get nasty and discuss about how geat the Quality control process standards are as well?
Hows that baby milk taste again?
How many got killed because of it?
How was that toy thing with the lead paint?
How much did it cost again?
China isn't part of the conversation in the larger sense here. Its more about the asian end of the manufacturing process, the rather lax copyright standards there, and the realtivly cheap manufacturing processes that are available over there that the attention is drawn to. In this conversation, we already have a topic. China is as much a conversation point as the Ma and Pa shops are that make the titans at home, or the guy that casts his armys and sells them on E bay in the basement.
Of course, you probibly missed that point. That happens when you don't read the whole post.
can1 /kæn; unstressed kən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kan; unstressed kuhn] Show IPA Pronunciation
auxiliary verb and verb, present singular 1st person can, 2nd can or (Archaic) canst, 3rd can, present plural can; past singular 1st person could, 2nd could or (Archaic) couldst, 3rd could, past plural could. For auxiliary verb: imperative, infinitive, and participles lacking. For verb (Obsolete): imperative can; infinitive can; past participle could; present participle cun⋅ning.
–auxiliary verb 1. to be able to; have the ability, power, or skill to: She can solve the problem easily, I'm sure.
2. to know how to: He can play chess, although he's not particularly good at it.
3. to have the power or means to: A dictator can impose his will on the people.
4. to have the right or qualifications to: He can change whatever he wishes in the script.
5. may; have permission to: Can I speak to you for a moment?
6. to have the possibility: A coin can land on either side.
A for effort, though.
That was pointless, of course he CAN do without but he doesn't want to.
Where your views and ours differ is when YOU CAN do without you will.
Please explain clearly how you can use the word "you" and only mean "yourself"(as in the one stating the declarative) in the sentence you originally wrote.
Grammar is not my strongest suit, but hiding your meaning behind rows and rows of grammatical instructions is not yours either.
I find this an interesting part of your copied and most likely copyright infringed entry-
3. to have the power or means to: A dictator can impose his will on the people.
here is the original quote again
If it's not worth the money to buy the song or the model, YOU can do without.
My problem was not with the word "can" it was with the word "you". I felt that your sentence had a level of assumed authority in it. I took it as to mean that you thought Dashofpepper should do without if he does not find something worth the money the owner asked. I just find it amusing to read it as if you were telling Dashofpepper what HE can and can not do. When I simply think you should be more concerned with what YOU will and won't do.
can1 /kæn; unstressed kən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kan; unstressed kuhn] Show IPA Pronunciation
auxiliary verb and verb, present singular 1st person can, 2nd can or (Archaic) canst, 3rd can, present plural can; past singular 1st person could, 2nd could or (Archaic) couldst, 3rd could, past plural could. For auxiliary verb: imperative, infinitive, and participles lacking. For verb (Obsolete): imperative can; infinitive can; past participle could; present participle cun⋅ning.
–auxiliary verb 1. to be able to; have the ability, power, or skill to: She can solve the problem easily, I'm sure.
2. to know how to: He can play chess, although he's not particularly good at it.
3. to have the power or means to: A dictator can impose his will on the people.
4. to have the right or qualifications to: He can change whatever he wishes in the script.
5. may; have permission to: Can I speak to you for a moment?
6. to have the possibility: A coin can land on either side.
A for effort, though.
That was pointless, of course he CAN do without but he doesn't want to.
Where your views and ours differ is when YOU CAN do without you will.
When we cannot do without we download or recast.
And we have no problem with it.
But hey A for effort, you can use a dictionary.
FU 2000 wrote:Orkeosaurus-
Please explain clearly how you can use the word "you" and only mean "yourself"(as in the one stating the declarative) in the sentence you originally wrote.
Grammar is not my strongest suit, but hiding your meaning behind rows and rows of grammatical instructions is not yours either.
Oh, you guise!
You can go without 40k miniatures and popular songs. That's right, you, whoever is reading this sentence right now, every single one of you. FU 2000, Daggermaw, LunaHound, and everyone else who reads this. That's what "you" means, it means "you the reader," and it applies to whoever is reading my post.
You can go without 40k miniatures and popular songs. That's right, you, whoever is reading this sentence right now, every single one of you. FU 2000, Daggermaw, LunaHound, and everyone else who reads this. That's what "you" means, it means "you the reader," and it applies to whoever is reading my post.
Was that halpful?
It's really not that hard to understand.
What give YOU the right to tell us what we can and cannot do without? Who made YOU the miniatures police?
I download music and codexs all the time and if I had the skill and knowledge I would recast models, and what could YOU do about it? Nothing.
You can go without 40k miniatures and popular songs. That's right, you, whoever is reading this sentence right now, every single one of you. FU 2000, Daggermaw, LunaHound, and everyone else who reads this. That's what "you" means, it means "you the reader," and it applies to whoever is reading my post.
You are absolutely right. I CAN go without them. How insightful of you. I can go without almost anything. Lets actually list the things I CAN'T go without.
Here we go.
1. Air.
2. Food.
3. Water.
Wow...did we learn anything today children?
Where are you possibly going now with this? Are we going to cover astrophysics next, after we finish biology?
To me the whole copyright system is immoral in it's current incarnation (in the US at least). It should be much closer to the patent system (which has significant flaws, too but nothing approaching copyrights).
For this reason I am way over in the techically against regs but morally ok camp.
You can live without miniatures and music. You cannot live without food or oxygen. Trust me, I know science. This applies to every single person on this forum.
And why do you guys care what I think?
If morality is so subjective, what gives me any less of a right to hate you than you have a right to steal? Why do you guys act so indignant?
Don't worry about it, bro. You keep stealing your whatevers, and I'll keep thinking what I already think of you.
You cannot go without sleep. That's right, you, whoever is reading this sentence right now, every single one of you. FU 2000, Daggermaw, LunaHound, and everyone else who reads this. That's what "you" means, it means "you the reader," and it applies to whoever is reading my post.
You can go without 40k miniatures and popular songs. That's right, you, whoever is reading this sentence right now, every single one of you. FU 2000, Daggermaw, LunaHound, and everyone else who reads this. That's what "you" means, it means "you the reader," and it applies to whoever is reading my post.
You are absolutely right. I CAN go without them. How insightful of you. I can go without almost anything. Lets actually list the things I CAN'T go without.
Here we go.
1. Air.
2. Food.
3. Water.
Wow...did we learn anything today children?
Where are you possibly going now with this? Are we going to cover astrophysics next, after we finish biology?
Well, apparently you didn't understand the difference between "can" and "will," so it's Vocab time!
If morality is so subjective, what gives me any less of a right to hate you than you have a right to steal? Why do you guys act so indignant?
Nothing gives you any less of a right, we just don't like having your morals rammed down our throat by you. Just as you would probably not like having our morals rammed down your throat.
I wish I had the know how and skill to cast for personal use. I'm simply too lazy and unmotivated to do it. A couple buddies and I tried to mold and cast 3 and 3/4" G.I. Joe weapons about 15 years ago...it was a disaster. We actually ruined the original weapons! Argh!
I buy GW products from vendors and GW itself because I weigh the money I spend against the product I am getting. And this is possible because I originally weighed the money I earn against the free time I loose by earning it.
I would simply waste too much free time trying to cast miniatures, free time that I equal to money I could make working at my job. So, I would rather simply pay GW for their product than waste free time working to make my own.
It's not a moral question, it's a question of what can I get for the least amount of effort/money spent. That's why counterfeits are so potentially appealing. I spend less, work nothing extra, and get arguably the same product. Amazing!
Simply imagine if copyrighted material had a shorter lifespan like manufacturing patents? Another poster here wrote about this earlier. Imagine if after 15 years anybody could write "official" space marine stories and release "official" 40K miniatures. The truth is that when patents expire, products do not die away, they get stronger as more people add their advancements to them. The same would work with intellectual property. The copyright laws are simply a bad and cowardly business decision that was forced through the legal system by lobbyists for said companies. If properly disassociated, it would have little relevance to ethics or morals.
If morality is so subjective, what gives me any less of a right to hate you than you have a right to steal? Why do you guys act so indignant?
Nothing gives you any less of a right, we just don't like having your morals rammed down our throat by you. Just as you would probably not like having our morals rammed down your throat.
Well... tough?
Would you like your business to lose money because people are stealing your work?
If morality is irrelevant, I don't have any reason to care about what you like.
Are YOU going to come through the internet and stop me?
Would you like your business to lose money because people are stealing your work?
If morality is irrelevant, I don't have any reason to care about what you like.
Are YOU going to come through the internet and stop me?
But, I will leave if you would like me to.
Why would we want you to leave? Seriously...we're only talking here.
Morality is not irrelevant, it is simply more relevant to understand that morals differ. If I had a business I would do exactly what GW does, make every effort to stop theft and infringement. Here is my double standard, out in the open for everyone to see. Maybe my greatest moral difference from you and most people here is that I have no problem having a double standard?
Would you like your business to lose money because people are stealing your work?
If morality is irrelevant, I don't have any reason to care about what you like.
Are YOU going to come through the internet and stop me?
But, I will leave if you would like me to.
Sure I would mind if people were stealing my work, and I would try to prosecute them to the full extent of the law, but that doesn't prevent people from stealing it in the first place.
You can't prevent people from doing something you don't like.
Your right you don't have any reason to care, but you asked why we cared.
Of course I'm not going to come through the internets. That's impossible unless your luna hound.
No please stay, this is very entertaining.
I'm just trying to get across that some people might have different opinions as to whats right/wrong and it might be different from yours.
I intended to say that you can go without miniatures and songs, and implied that I have little sympathy for people who feel that they can't.
I think the same way. I also think we live in a strangely materialistic world, and I actually was drawn to the seriousness(moral vs legal, theft vs duplication, conspiracy theory vs reality) of this thread more than the association with miniatures. It's just little men, right? But if I can eek out some enjoyment from picking the brains of some people who claim to "never have stolen a pen from work"...then BONUS!
FU 2000 wrote:Morality is not irrelevant, it is simply more relevant to understand that morals differ. If I had a business I would do exactly what GW does, make every effort to stop theft and infringement. Here is my double standard, out in the open for everyone to see. Maybe my greatest moral difference from you and most people here is that I have no problem having a double standard?
Daggermaw wrote:I'm just trying to get across that some people might have different opinions as to whats right/wrong and it might be different from yours.
Well, of course people have differing opinions on morality; I'm right here arguing with you on morality!
However, there are actions which work towards the betterment of society and actions which work against it; the effect these actions have is not subjective. Theft (nearly always) has a negative impact on society, and thus it becomes immoral. Without morality, and laws which reflect and enforce a form of morality, civilization would not be able to function.
To use casting miniatures as an example, sculptors would gain little to no benefit in sculpting models if they could be recast without recourse.
Daggermaw wrote:
Sure I would mind if people were stealing my work, and I would try to prosecute them to the full extent of the law, but that doesn't prevent people from stealing it in the first place.
Again...this doesn't relate to GW. If you make a song, and someone hears it, likes it, and starts singing it themselves, they aren't stealing your work, they're reproducing it. If you paint a picture and someone takes a snapshot of it to admire later, they aren't stealing it. If you have a song, and someone makes a copy of it for themselves, they haven't stolen it. And if you have a plastic army man, and I make a copy of it, I haven't stolen your army man.
Theft isn't involved anywhere here. The only reason that there is even any GRAY area instead of pure white is because copyright jackals have spent so many years breeding a system where entities like the RIAA can flourish trying to abuse the consumer. I'm sorry, but when I buy something, its mine to do what I want with it.
If I buy a plastic model, its mine. I can assemble it how I want. I can paint it how I want. I can throw it away. I can combine it with other models. I can give it to someone else. I can make a copy of it so that I have two. Its up to me.
Again...this doesn't relate to GW. If you make a song, and someone hears it, likes it, and starts singing it themselves, they aren't stealing your work, they're reproducing it. If you paint a picture and someone takes a snapshot of it to admire later, they aren't stealing it. If you have a song, and someone makes a copy of it for themselves, they haven't stolen it. And if you have a plastic army man, and I make a copy of it, I haven't stolen your army man.
Theft isn't involved anywhere here. The only reason that there is even any GRAY area instead of pure white is because copyright jackals have spent so many years breeding a system where entities like the RIAA can flourish trying to abuse the consumer. I'm sorry, but when I buy something, its mine to do what I want with it.
If I buy a plastic model, its mine. I can assemble it how I want. I can paint it how I want. I can throw it away. I can combine it with other models. I can give it to someone else. I can make a copy of it so that I have two. Its up to me.
I agree and disagree with you. I've heard the whole reproducing isn't stealing argument but the problem is that according to law it is stealing.
That's the thing about threads. They can keep spiralling downward and downward; with no real ground to crash into. Without a mod along for the ride, that is.
I agree that "stealing" in general is a social problem that does not benefit society as a whole. But what we label "stealing" is entirely subjective.
I agree with Dashofpepper. The pendulum has swung to the side of the companies. They have gone to great lengths to prosecute people for "stealing" to secure their profits and market shares, when they should be lowering prices, offering better products, and relating to the consumer better. These practices would attract more business.
To Orkeosaurus- if intellectual copyrights expired at a sooner time akin to manufacturing patents, then sculptors would strive to make the best "version" of a space marine that they could. Their talent and efforts would be paid back with my money. Companies would be free and more likely supported by the public to go after counterfeiters while the shorter copyrights are still in effect.
My problem lies in what companies have "tricked" the public into thinking is a moral crime, when it is in my opinion simply a corporate measure to maximize profits and minimize losses.
as a design engineer I feel shafted. If I design a new machine and it makes airplanes in a new wonderful way. I have 17 years of patent protection before somebody else can copy my machine. where art has life of artist + 70 years, all because disney wants to protect mickey mouse from going public domain. Imagine how slow the world would progress if technology was given the same protections as art
That's the thing about threads. They can keep spiralling downward and downward; with no real ground to crash into. Without a mod along for the ride, that is.
I think we're doing fine without a babysitter to tell us what we can and can not say. I appreciate Yakface for building and maintaining this forum, but I appreciate more my free use of it without anyone's censorship. We are not cursing or making personal attacks at each other.
Without a mod along for the ride, that is.
and I get called a troll? Why do people beg to be controlled?
Imagine how slow the world would progress if technology was given the same protections as art
Imagine how "shafted" you would feel in a technologically primitive society that you just hinted at. It's a shame that you don't make as much money from your invention. But I am glad that if you conceived a new innovation that I can so quickly share in it's greatness while regretfully denying you some miniature spending money.
FU 2000 wrote:I agree that "stealing" in general is a social problem that does not benefit society as a whole. But what we label "stealing" is entirely subjective.
I agree with Dashofpepper. The pendulum has swung to the side of the companies. They have gone to great lengths to prosecute people for "stealing" to secure their profits and market shares, when they should be lowering prices, offering better products, and relating to the consumer better. These practices would attract more business.
To Orkeosaurus- if intellectual copyrights expired at a sooner time akin to manufacturing patents, then sculptors would strive to make the best "version" of a space marine that they could. Their talent and efforts would be paid back with my money. Companies would be free and more likely supported by the public to go after counterfeiters while the shorter copyrights are still in effect.
My problem lies in what companies have "tricked" the public into thinking is a moral crime, when it is in my opinion simply a corporate measure to maximize profits and minimize losses.
Hmm, you have something of a point there.
There is certainly a cutoff point for when/how much it is moral or immoral to copy something, and that cutoff point is not always what is enforced by law.
However, to say that the law does not strictly follow what is right does not mean that the law can be violated without concern for what is right.
Most of this thread seems to have related to models produced today by GW, probably not sculpted over 14 years ago.
FU 2000 wrote:I agree that "stealing" in general is a social problem that does not benefit society as a whole. But what we label "stealing" is entirely subjective.
I agree with Dashofpepper. The pendulum has swung to the side of the companies. They have gone to great lengths to prosecute people for "stealing" to secure their profits and market shares, when they should be lowering prices, offering better products, and relating to the consumer better. These practices would attract more business.
To Orkeosaurus- if intellectual copyrights expired at a sooner time akin to manufacturing patents, then sculptors would strive to make the best "version" of a space marine that they could. Their talent and efforts would be paid back with my money. Companies would be free and more likely supported by the public to go after counterfeiters while the shorter copyrights are still in effect.
My problem lies in what companies have "tricked" the public into thinking is a moral crime, when it is in my opinion simply a corporate measure to maximize profits and minimize losses.
Hmm, you have something of a point there.
There is certainly a cutoff point for when/how much it is moral or immoral to copy something, and that cutoff point is not always what is enforced by law.
However, to say that the law does not strictly follow what is right does not mean that the law can be violated without concern for what is right.
Most of this thread seems to have related to models produced today by GW, probably not sculpted over 14 years ago.
well except were i was crucified for admitting I would copy old squat torso's that were sculpted before some of poster here where born and why because I can buy them. casting for me is for personal use and it is a pita and not worth my time unless I can't buy said models
However, to say that the law does not strictly follow what is right does not mean that the law can be violated without concern for what is right.
I violate the law with concern for it, but not with agreement with it. When I "infringe upon copyrighted material" I do so knowingly and with an attempt at full understanding of my actions and their possible ramifications.
Basically, I wish copyright laws were fair to everybody- the producer, the consumer, and everybody in between. But we all know where wishing gets us. At the end of the day, I weigh my options against any possible ramifications, and I do what I want. Maybe someday I will pay for my actions, and maybe then I'll be full of regret. But I'm prepared for that.
Dashofpepper wrote:
Theft isn't involved anywhere here. The only reason that there is even any GRAY area instead of pure white is because copyright jackals have spent so many years breeding a system where entities like the RIAA can flourish trying to abuse the consumer. I'm sorry, but when I buy something, its mine to do what I want with it.
If I buy a plastic model, its mine. I can assemble it how I want. I can paint it how I want. I can throw it away. I can combine it with other models. I can give it to someone else. I can make a copy of it so that I have two. Its up to me.
Haha I bet this is due to all the notices they put in movies right after the previews. The whole infringement = stealing PSA.
FU 2000 wrote:I violate the law with concern for it, but not with agreement with it. When I "infringe upon copyrighted material" I do so knowingly and with an attempt at full understanding of my actions and their possible ramifications.
Basically, I wish copyright laws were fair to everybody- the producer, the consumer, and everybody in between. But we all know where wishing gets us. At the end of the day, I weigh my options against any possible ramifications, and I do what I want. Maybe someday I will pay for my actions, and maybe then I'll be full of regret. But I'm prepared for that.
In that case I only hope your judgement in such matters is sound.
stonefox wrote:Haha I bet this is due to all the notices they put in movies right after the previews. The whole infringement = stealing PSA.
orkasaourus I don't know if your old enough to remember the egg break ing into the frying pan
"and this is your brain on drugs" PSA.
That was the best!
Unlike say, FU, I DO possess the skill and know-wots to enable me to recast. Indeed, I have made molds for the specific purpose of copying an original model (I worked in an SFX workshop - it was a requirement to have MANY copies of something for some productions so mold-making was a skill I learned.) and these skills do not simply get forgotten when you no longer HAVE to use them for work purposes.
If there are parts I need and there is no reasonable way of getting them - the manufacturer no longer offers them for sale in whole or part (and no, I do not consider an online auction as a 'reasonable way'. ) damn straight I WILL use my skills and knowledge to solve the problem - IF it is cost effective for me to do so.
That, to me is the bottom line. Not whether it is right or wrong, illegal or immoral. I can also scratchbuild something that will look "more or less" like the original if I have one and the time to do so.
Daggermaw wrote:orkasaourus I don't know if your old enough to remember the egg break ing into the frying pan
"and this is your brain on drugs" PSA.
That was the best!
Ahh... it's foggy. A little too old for me, I must have been really young when those were on.
I remember the Drug Bugs trying to play basketball though.
They lost, because they were on drugs.
These are the critical thinking skills we must teach our children.
JohnHwangDD wrote:How the hell did suddenly China become the problem?
The Chinese factories operate pretty much like any other entrepenurial capitalist system. And by comparison, from all accounts it's probably far more benign and enlightened than what the US and UK had when they transitioned from agrarian to industrial...
Of course, if you want to get nasty and discuss about how geat the Quality control process standards are as well?
How many got killed because of it?
China isn't part of the conversation in the larger sense here. Its more about the asian end of the manufacturing process, the rather lax copyright standards there, and the realtivly cheap manufacturing processes that are available over there that the attention is drawn to.
If that's the case, then you probably should have simply said so...
Anyhow, as I said earlier, I think if one were to do comparative negative net impact assessments, China fares far better than the US or the West did at any comparable point of industrialization. That is, tainted food and drink is nothing new to the US - how do you think the FDA, OSHA, etc. got their mandates in the first place?
As far as copyright goes, most of the world is lax here, not just China. From a global perspective, the US is bizarrely anomalous in that we pay more than lip service to the notion of copyrights. Of course, this is only because, now, at this moment, the US is a primary content producer. When the US was a younger country, we ran roughshod over European copyrights and IP in lieu of paying royalties and licenses. Therefore, it's pretty clear that, like the US, until China develops sufficient internal content to protect, it's pointless and stupid in trying to impose copyrights on them. Though I think there's a very good chance that China bypasses the notion of strong IP in favor of something more open and communal.
The thing to pay attention to is actually Vietnam. That's where China is moving their production to drive cost down! But if you worry about enlightened producers, and think China is bad, you've got another thing coming.
skkipper wrote:as a design engineer I feel shafted. If I design a new machine and it makes airplanes in a new wonderful way. I have 17 years of patent protection before somebody else can copy my machine. where art has life of artist + 70 years, all because disney wants to protect mickey mouse from going public domain. Imagine how slow the world would progress if technology was given the same protections as art
I trained as a mechanical design engineer, and worked as a software architect/engineer.
I got out of the IP fields, as the whole thing was pointless. Slinging code and designing things is "work for hire", so you're just creating more valuable IP for someone else's ultimate benefit and reward. About the only code I ever felt good about was government work - at least the IP was held by my government, rather than some profit-making company.
Anyhow, for me, copyright is really about convenience. I'm not going to invest in molds, because the basic cost-benefit analysis says it makes sense to buy unless you're going to copy dozens or hundreds, and who has time for that?
chromedog wrote:Unlike say, FU, I DO possess the skill and know-wots to enable me to recast.
If there are parts I need and there is no reasonable way of getting them - the manufacturer no longer offers them for sale in whole or part (and no, I do not consider an online auction as a 'reasonable way'. ) damn straight I WILL use my skills and knowledge to solve the problem - IF it is cost effective for me to do so.
That, to me is the bottom line. Not whether it is right or wrong, illegal or immoral. I can also scratchbuild something that will look "more or less" like the original if I have one and the time to do so.
Yeah, but how often is it cost effective? How often do you happen have the time?
I think that stuff is a pain in the ass to do en masse, and I nearly always prefer to just drop cash and be done.
That's the thing about threads. They can keep spiralling downward and downward; with no real ground to crash into. Without a mod along for the ride, that is.
I think we're doing fine without a babysitter to tell us what we can and can not say. I appreciate Yakface for building and maintaining this forum, but I appreciate more my free use of it without anyone's censorship. We are not cursing or making personal attacks at each other.
Without a mod along for the ride, that is.
and I get called a troll? Why do people beg to be controlled?
Never called you a troll. If that's what you took away from what I said, I'm sorry. Or are you calling me a troll? I don't really follow you there. I don't see how what I said was all that incendiary or anything. I don't know why people beg to be controlled. I'm not sure that I agree that they do. Unless you are trying to promulgate anarchy as a form of government, not really sure at all what you were doing at all with this post. And I'm not sure you realize it, but I wasn't addressing you in my quote. At all. Promise.
Depends on the situation, really. The more GW charge for one model, though, the more CE it becomes. Generally, 1,2 or 3 copies won't be.
5-20 casts becomes the cost effective range. 5 generally is the price break (unit cost being less than production costs).
As for the time aspect: If I had a deadline of say 4-6 weeks, would I prefer to waste my time trolling fleabay or make the molds and have all the pieces I need? The latter. For a start, I know how much I'll be paying for it all up. FlEabay not necessarily so.
The word 'troll' has been bandied about in this thread. Troll may in some circumstances be considered an insult especially if combined with particular other words, so should be used with circumspection. We all know that people do genuinely troll. Even in such a case, a better response would be to use one of those amusing images like Obvious Troll is Obvious. Humour (done well) is a good way of tackling difficult issues.
On the subject of counterfeit Minis I boughta job lot of sprues of ebay. All of it appeared to be legit no doubt about most of it.
But in the box were 7 pairs of dragon wings from the current plastic dragon dogs of war I believe. Not that odd - they were clear plastic! Now I have played with resin before and I very much doubt they were resin Polystyrene cement works fine with them and there were a few sprue bits attached. The plastic appears to be the same as the flight stand plastic.
Secondly there was an eldar jet bike in green plastic (like the trees) again appeared to be injection moulded and not resin.
Polystyrene is the plastic used by GW and other model kit makers. Its natural state is clear, and it can be stained to different colours before moulding.
I've seen GW kits in various colours over the years -- different shades of grey, tan yellow and purple. I've never seen clear except for the flight stands. That doesn't prove anything by itself, of course.
I've never seen GW use green plastic on their Eldar jetbikes, or most other thigns for that. Different shades of grey are to be expected, but green requires adding a different pigment altogether. The only thing I can think of that they did with green plastic are some of the pieces in Heroquest and Space Crusade. Some of their other smaller games had counters of other colours (red in the Warlock of Firetop Mountain and green in Rogue Trooper IIRC). But that's many years ago now.
You all have seen the female commisar on eBay going for like 30 dollars and up, well about 8 months ago i got one for 10.00 dollars and yes that's right it was a counterfeit the model was shiny as hell and here face was not that detailed but it was ten bucks so what the hell still not right thou
Howard A Treesong wrote:I've never seen GW use green plastic on their Eldar jetbikes, or most other thigns for that. Different shades of grey are to be expected, but green requires adding a different pigment altogether. The only thing I can think of that they did with green plastic are some of the pieces in Heroquest and Space Crusade. Some of their other smaller games had counters of other colours (red in the Warlock of Firetop Mountain and green in Rogue Trooper IIRC). But that's many years ago now.
Like Him, I've never seen a plastic jetbike in green. They were always grey to my knowledge. I've been collecting them (eldar) since 87, and half of my jetbikes are original plastic and under the paint they are grey models (the other half are metal). The Land Raider and Rhinos came in the same bone/beige as the RTB001 marines and the Genestealer expansion librarians.
I've seen marines in green (original RTB001), 'bone'/beige (also RTB001) and various shades of grey. Space Crusade here was Blue, Yellow and Red (and grey). Never got into HQ. Only remember dark green and a blue for Rogue Trooper (but might have been more colours).
I would doubt that any legit eldar jetbike would be made from green plastic becuase the early ones were metal, and but the time the plastic ones came out GW seemed to be making everything grey as standard.
chromedog wrote:I've seen marines in green (original RTB001), 'bone'/beige (also RTB001) and various shades of grey. Space Crusade here was Blue, Yellow and Red (and grey). Never got into HQ. Only remember dark green and a blue for Rogue Trooper (but might have been more colours).
You've jogged my memory now. All the Rogue Trooper figures were a different colour, green, blue, grey, red-brown, and maybe cream and silver. There were six pieces. Space Crusade had three sets of Marines (Yellow, Blue and Red), Chaos and genestealers were black, Dreadnauts and androids were grey, Orks and Goblins were green and Eldar were light blue in the expansion. In Heroquest the heroes were dark red, Orcs/goblins were green, chaos and the evil wizard were dark grey, mummies and zombies were cream, later expansions added human mercenaries in light red, some wizards in blue and some ogres in brown. There are other expansion sets but they are so rare and obscure I'm not familiar with them.
Early marines and rhinos/predators and landraiders were cream, but the earliest Warhammer, branded "drastic plastic" or "Pyschostyrene" IIRC, were bright white. Marines and Genestealers in the original Space Hulk were a very dark blue, and the marines had red slotta bases, or at least the squad commander did. In the expansions the Librarians were cream as you say, but the hybrid genestealers were cream with grey arms and weapons.
I bought a bunch of gretchin online along with some orks. THey're (presumably? 1st or 2nd edition)...all of the models are identical. IE, all 20 Orks are identical and all 60 gretchin are identical.
Sounds like the 2nd ed orks that came in the box. I never bought the 2nd ed box. Didn't have to - all of my mates who played did, and we played in the same club.
Marines were limited in pose (I only have a single SM missile launcher figure from that period).
If you do have any good sites for pirates please put em up here(or even private mess me) so we all can order.. err.. I mean judge for ourselves :O Until then I wont belive there is any piracy here.. hehe
Other then that.. piracy isnt theft but still against the law. So if you really care about that, worry about it.. if you dont and think the risk is worth the profit, go ahead and enjoy. Pretty much like GWs policy, if you can get away with it go ahead.
Dashofpepper wrote:I bought a bunch of gretchin online along with some orks. THey're (presumably? 1st or 2nd edition)...all of the models are identical. IE, all 20 Orks are identical and all 60 gretchin are identical.
Was it like that back then?
Yep they were pretty much identical in the whole box.
Really awful looking -_- if they want to make whole army with 1 same pose,
atleast bother with using the "aiming / firing" pose!
Dashofpepper wrote:I bought a bunch of gretchin online along with some orks. THey're (presumably? 1st or 2nd edition)...all of the models are identical. IE, all 20 Orks are identical and all 60 gretchin are identical.
Was it like that back then?
Yep they were pretty much identical in the whole box.
Really awful looking -_- if they want to make whole army with 1 same pose,
atleast bother with using the "aiming / firing" pose!
Yeah, those were the greenskins from the 2E box set. I randomly acquired some of those when I was buying random cheap figs for DH, before I broke down and started wasting money on 40K in a dedicated fashion.
I agree with Luna too, they look like statues, they could have at least made their one pose look halfway decent ;-)
But alas, back to the social commentary over toy soldiers!
two_heads_talking wrote:boy this certainly got off track of the original question..
"Ever received any? How'd you know? Have any good resources online people can use to check what they do get? "
Don't some people say that more Sergeant Centurius's have been sold on eBay than were ever made? You have to be careful of the Limited Edition stuff especially, know the products well and, although it's not foolproof, buy in packaging if possible and look to see if the tag between the feet is complete and well cast. Rare figures still packaged do cost more as a collectible item though.
The golden rule with eBay for me is like gambling, don't spend more than you can afford to lose. And you're going to lay out a lot on a single model, go for someone who sells a lot of quality miniatures and has a lot of positive feedback.
two_heads_talking wrote:boy this certainly got off track of the original question..
"Ever received any? How'd you know? Have any good resources online people can use to check what they do get? "
Don't some people say that more Sergeant Centurius's have been sold on eBay than were ever made? You have to be careful of the Limited Edition stuff especially, know the products well and, although it's not foolproof, buy in packaging if possible and look to see if the tag between the feet is complete and well cast. Rare figures still packaged do cost more as a collectible item though.
The golden rule with eBay for me is like gambling, don't spend more than you can afford to lose. And you're going to lay out a lot on a single model, go for someone who sells a lot of quality miniatures and has a lot of positive feedback.
From what I remember the Sgt Centurius was rleased twice.. once as an LE model and then again in the original 10 man squad boxes.. I think perhaps there were only 1000 released this way.. I've owned a total of 5 stg. Centurius.. 3 of them were the LE model in a BP.. these models were actually a bit smaller than the ones that were in the 2 boxes..
Yes, it would be, but no one would go after you, sue you, etc.
Also, what do you mean by "make your own models"? I was assuming you meant casting something GW. If you sculpt your own dudes and then make casts, then it's fine. If you cast your own dudes, and they look just like space marines, and you call them Spaze Marines...well you're violating copyright again, but no one is going to go after you. So it's up to whether or not you feel bad about it
gamefreak wrote:so i have a question: if i make my own models and i cast them but dont sell them would that be a copy right infringement?
Your own as in your own design and stuff? If its 100% your own you can do w/e you feel like with it .
If you recast GW models , and keep it a secret , its still illegal . BUT like most of the arguments in here
if you dont tell, they wont know = its ok. Or so they say.
gamefreak wrote:so i have a question: if i make my own models and i cast them but dont sell them would that be a copy right infringement?
If you copy the copyrighted features and designs of GW figures, your new model might be considered a derivative work which is a copyright infringement if you did it without permission.
no it is completely original as in my friend is helping me design them. i have a thread in the blogs under an attempt at a scratch built army if you would like to see the building of them.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:To my knowledge, Centurius was only ever Blister Released for Apocalypse 100.....and even then, possibly only in the UK.
I could have sworn there were some 'sneak releases' of them in a boxed set.. perhaps my information was wrong.. If that's the case, I got 2 fakies.. lol
gamefreak wrote:no it is completely original as in my friend is helping me design them. i have a thread in the blogs under an attempt at a scratch built army if you would like to see the building of them.
Sure, we would love to!.
As i said earlier, as long as the designs and stuff are 100% originally yours, its all ok.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:To my knowledge, Centurius was only ever Blister Released for Apocalypse 100.....and even then, possibly only in the UK.
I could have sworn there were some 'sneak releases' of them in a boxed set.. perhaps my information was wrong.. If that's the case, I got 2 fakies.. lol
There is , but i dont think its Centurius in the box set.
it will take a while to do as i have to strip a ton of av cables for the copper wire for the skeleton of the minis and then sculpt them and then paint them. i am going to make a ton of them too in the end though i might resort to resin casting after i get a lot of them done.
I have 100% legit miniatures i bought from GW store , that i left next to my window for years. And they have
turned into this weird yellow tint on them (almost like if a thin flesh wash applied on it would loook like ), what exactly happend with it?
the sun has degraded the plasitc and you would probably have a hard time getting paint to stick to them and they would be very brittle too so be extra careful. also my dad has some of the newer plastic ork and eldar models and he left them out for a month on the wingow sill and they have turned a bright purple!!!
Are they lead? Models with a high lead content sometimes discolour or even go black. Also this blackness can build up like a growth on the miniature I'm not sure exactly what happens, but they corrode as the oxidise and if you don't get it under control the model can disintergrate and turn to dust. It's a plague on older miniatures and seems to affect some more than others, you can have a box of miniatures all the same age where only one goes bad, but I'd say the older they are the worse the problem. They solution seems to be to primer them and seal the miniature from the atmosphere.
JohnHwangDD wrote:It probably oxidized due to chemical residue from handling. Sitting in the window adds solar heat to accelerate the reaction.
Any ways to get rid of it? soapy water scrubbing isnt working lol
Oxidation is a chemical change in the surface layer. Rust is a kind of oxidation. Scrub them, prime them with car primer, paint them, and seal them with varnish. This will keep oxygen away from the bare metal.
Lots of things don't like being put out in sunlight, for example, paint on miniatures can fade and varnish can yellow, so keep your figures in a cool dark place.
@Luna: I'm not sure there's anything you can (or need to) do, short of hitting the model with a wire (brass) brush. You can still prime and paint it just fine.
JohnHwangDD wrote:@Luna: I'm not sure there's anything you can (or need to) do, short of hitting the model with a wire (brass) brush. You can still prime and paint it just fine.
Because it looks like someone peed on it.
99% of my warhammer items are not painted or primed, and having some yellow stained mini sitting
there really irks me rofl.
Wow.
This thread is STILL going on? That is interesting. Since one of the major themes in this one is the morality of recasting and the like I'll chime in with my views on the issue.
I do regard copyright infringment as a form of theft. By a legalistic definition it is just that. But in the case of non-comercial recasting I don't have a huge problem with it. Note as I have stated several times in this thread I make a distinction between comercial recasting (recasting and selling the item for profit) and non-comercial recasting (doing so for personal use).
Some might wonder how someone like me who is widely known as a pretty hard Right "law and order" conservative who is a law enforcement professional of 17 years can hold such views. Well, I'm intelligent enough to realise that not all laws have the same degree of negative effect upon individuals and socity in general when broken. Violent crimes such as murder, rape, robbery, etc are clearly more damaging to our society than are things like jay-walking or copyright infringement. I had to laugh when someone earlier in the thread compared recasting to illegal drug use and under-age drinking. Clearly these are harmful and have a real negative effect upon our society, while you would be hard pressed to find a similar ill effect caused by non-comercial recasts.
Then there is the whole aspect of who the victim is.
Call me calous, but I tend to look at who is being negatively effected before I get too worked up about a particular crime. Thus back a few years ago when someone was vandalizing water tanks that misguided folks were placing out for use by illegal aliens I didn't get too worried about private property rights. When I hear about someone rolling a known drug dealer or pedophile, or when a bad guy kills another bad guy I'm not shedding any tears. Likewise when someone is doing pretty much anything negative to GW my reaction tends to be 'em.
Is this a double standard on my part? Sure. But ALL human beings have double standards on some issue.
The bottom line in my never humble opinon is this:
-While non-comercial recasing is technically a form of theft, it's a very minor issue. If you can look yourself in the mirror, go for it as the rules against it are almost unenforcable and you are extremely unlikely to get caught if you play it even halfway smart.
-Comercial recasting is certainly theft and is wrong. That being said, on the occasions I have bought figures that I found to be recasts, I have simply went ahead and painted them up and used them. Why throw away your money?
"I'm just trying to get across that some people might have different opinions as to whats right/wrong and it might be different from yours."
That was the most important thing Daggermaw said and what all of this boils down to.
Also, if you're taking a pure literal translation of Daggermaw's posts, well you're kinda missing the point. He's being ridiculous deliberately, if you're missing that you're missing his meaning. Is it the most effective way to debate? Well no, but it's entertaining and I'm certainly guilty of it myself at times.
Neconilis wrote:"I'm just trying to get across that some people might have different opinions as to whats right/wrong and it might be different from yours."
That was the most important thing Daggermaw said and what all of this boils down to.
Also, if you're taking a pure literal translation of Daggermaw's posts, well you're kinda missing the point. He's being ridiculous deliberately, if you're missing that you're missing his meaning. Is it the most effective way to debate? Well no, but it's entertaining and I'm certainly guilty of it myself at times.
Ya i know, but its normal to consider actions that harm others = wrong.
in this case we know pretty well the companies that are hurt by it.
Trench raider I think your last post perfectly gets across what I'm trying to say. I find it interesting that as a law enforcement professional you are willing to look the other way on such matters.
The reason I use examples of underage drinking, drug use, murder and all the other ridiculous things is to try and get across to some people views of right and wrong are on a sliding scale.
As a law enforcement professional you must see people breaking all kinds of laws everyday. From going 5mph over the speed limit, to jay walking, to any various things. But a lot of time you look the other way or turn your head.
Why? Because these little things are no big deal. Even though they are against the law.
But who says they're no big deal? The law doesn't say the speed limit is 65mph with a wiggle room of 5mph.
It's just that most people feel that going a few miles over the limit is ok. Notice how I said most people.
There will be some people that will never speed, under any circumstances, not matter what, and that's fine the majority of people aren't going to complain or try to convert people to speed.
Back to miniatures, I feel that although yes, recasting is illegal, but it's no big deal.
But trench raiders last line was the most important.
"Other's views will no doubt vary from mine."
Everyone should have that mindset when they are looking at a public forum made up of people from different countries, cultures, and upbringing. But as a disclaimer I'm not saying they have to.
P.S. oh and JD21290 your avatar is still in violation of GWs IP policy
Neconilis wrote:"I'm just trying to get across that some people might have different opinions as to whats right/wrong and it might be different from yours."
That was the most important thing Daggermaw said and what all of this boils down to.
Also, if you're taking a pure literal translation of Daggermaw's posts, well you're kinda missing the point. He's being ridiculous deliberately, if you're missing that you're missing his meaning. Is it the most effective way to debate? Well no, but it's entertaining and I'm certainly guilty of it myself at times.
Ya i know, but its normal to consider actions that harm others = wrong.
in this case we know pretty well the companies that are hurt by it.
Let's be clear here...it's not just the companies that are hurt by it, but the people employed by those companies, or who could be employed by those companies, etc.
It's easy to decry GW as a greedy, Evil Empire(tm). But despite the fact that I dislike some of Jervis Johnson's attitude, I wouldn't want to deliberately harm his livelihood.
it'll also circle back to us Legit customers through price increase.
If you think that some dude in his garage casting up a few OOP models for personal use has any effect what so ever on GW's oh so regular price increases, then you are fooling yourself, my friend. Even the well known comercial recasters like Goblins-goodies and Mac-Ace largely confined their work to OOP models. Their work may have hit GW a little by reducing demand for their then rather large "archive" line. But I'm sure we call all agree that must have made up but a small portion of their revenue. What the comercial recasters did effect was the collector community. As someone who is a long time member of a couple of Citadel collector's groups, let me assure you that the reaction was remarkable.
LunaHound wrote:
I know centurian99 , and after enough damage is done, it'll also circle back to us Legit customers through price increase.
I just assume daggermaw would atleast understand that much without me needing to expand in detail.
I don't see miniatures gaming ever suffering from this to the extent that intellectual property companies like film/DVD/music/CD media producers have. The aforementioned are amorphous, occupy little to no real space, and can be endlessly replicated once you have the code to burn off of with little to no degradation in quality. Thanks to the internet and home computers it can be done anonymously and with very little inconvenience. Miniatures, on the other hand, require large amounts of raw material, handling, startup costs, and constant effort. It's no easier to make miniature number 5,000 than miniature number 12. Then you have to find some physical means of delivering your goods to your customer, which means advertising, creating demand, and attracting consumers, all of which creates a big blinking light that GW's legal team can use to shut you down.
So yes, copyright infringement certainly won't help GW, but it won't shut them down simply because they can find and punish anybody doing it on a scale that could affect the business.
it'll also circle back to us Legit customers through price increase.
If you think that some dude in his garage casting up a few OOP models for personal use has any effect what so ever on GW's oh so regular price increases, then you are fooling yourself, my friend. Even the well known comercial recasters like Goblins-goodies and Mac-Ace largely confined their work to OOP models. Their work may have hit GW a little by reducing demand for their then rather large "archive" line. But I'm sure we call all agree that must have made up but a small portion of their revenue. What the comercial recasters did effect was the collector community. As someone who is a long time member of a couple of Citadel collector's groups, let me assure you that the reaction was remarkable.
But they were NOT the cause of price increases.
TR
Oh i know that , but you know, if the over all attitude increases from hmm.... *not sure if i should cast...
to **sure! everyone is cool with casting, lets all cast!
Then you'll see the difference.
You know, we are all humans, we all have lines of no return once crossed. Morality holds importance in how far we are to step.
That's unlikely to the point of impossibility. The startup costs for even the most basic workshop to do all your molding and casting in should be more than 2000 points of GW army.
Added to that, you'd have to buy the models to create the basic mold from in the first place.
sourclams wrote:That's unlikely to the point of impossibility. The startup costs for even the most basic workshop to do all your molding and casting in should be more than 2000 points of GW army.
Added to that, you'd have to buy the models to create the basic mold from in the first place.
Not if you cast resin molds like Krieg army for example.
to **sure! everyone is cool with casting, lets all cast!
Come on.
That's a bit of hyperbole.
"Everyone" is not going to cast. Hell, only a tiny minority is going to do so.
As I have stated, I've got a friend with a small jewelry spin caster, so I've got some experience with this. Not only is both the actual casting machine and the mold rubber expensive to obtain, the actual mold making process is both time consuming and takes some bit of skill to get right. The neophyte caster is going to waste a bit of rubber before he hits upon the right way to cut channels and understand the proper way to vent a mold. Then there is the actual casting process, which is hot, sweaty, repetative work. Assuming a smallish machine such as the one I worked on, given the low number of models you can cast at once and the cool down time you have to factor in for the molds, it would take one sever evenings of steady work to cast up an entire 40k army....and those modls take several hours apiece to make in the first place.
My point is that this is not something that more than a handful of people are ever going to attempt. With the exception of the big time comercial recasters (who have largely been driven from the market...though not entirely) the effect of "garage" type recasting is almost nill.
I freely admit I know very little about resin casting. Metal casting is another thing of course. I also have a pretty good working knowledge of the major Ebay recasters of a few years ago. That is mainly what I am talking about.
lunahound people might tend to agree with your argument if it were true.
But other industrys where recasting is perfectly fine the large compnaies haven't suffered for it.
Ford hasn't made the 1967 mustang since 1967. Yet there are a lot of people who want a 1967 mustang.
What are these people to do? They could spend thousands upon thousand of dollars and buy an orginial 1967 ford mustang for $45,000 dollars. OOORRRRR they can buy a recast, yes a recast of originial ford parts, like side panels, seat covers and all kinds of things.
So they make a kit 1967 ford mustang. Have they copied the orginial, yes. Have other companies made money off the hard work and look of the Ford product, yes.
Has ford lost any money off of it? yes perhaps millions.
Is it legal? Only as long as they don't use the Ford logo.
And it's just not ford, its chevy, porche, lambos everything.
Ya dagger , back to the if not caught its ok , if others do wrong , its ok if i do wrong too argument.
Im done here , showed basic stuff i wanted to show:
a) Crazy easily to do recast
b) Its been pissing off asian kit companies for decades.
the rest too hard , fly over to china see for yourself , or come to Vancouver in a few month to our Night Market and i'll take you around.
Remember , why continue doing old resin cast to sell for $50 , when a forge world can yield $300+
One last thing for skeptics . Just because we dont know how to do somethings , or find it hard to do , doesnt mean others havnt found ways to do it ,better , easier.
Oh another thing i forgot to mention. There are some misconception to some of your views on counterfeiters.
Remember, they dont start as people that recast because they cant afford stuff omg warhammer toys.
They do this for LIVING , means w/e is hot now , sells well , yields nice profit = GOGOGO
@Trench Raider: With the right silicon rubber you can do resin or metal casts from the same mold. sure, you'll have to switch it out from spincaster to pressure pot, but it IS doable.
You can easily make the molds and get the materials to make a 2000 pt army (of infantry/small vehicles like bikes or 'speeder-types') for under what it would cost for the models (going by our prices.) IF you know what you are doing.
I've seen entire biker 'ravenwing' armies copied in the past (older RT bikes were smaller and easier to copy) from a handful of bikes. For the cost of say 5 individual 'units' (not squad type units), it was possible to make 100 identical units.
JohnHwangDD wrote:And that is why "garage" recasting focuses on expensive stuff like FSS models that retail for $100+, rather than cheaper stuff.
Why there isn't more of an effort to recast Warhounds and Reavers, I can't imagine. You'd think those would be profitable to recast...
Oh, wait...
That and stuff like resin FW accessories / upgrade kits are harder to catch
and sell easily too, buyer can spend lots of smaller chunks of $30 - $60 instead
of one whole $300.
Trivial to copy in a one-sided silicon rtv mold for resin, too. Even the GW "basing kit" extras (resin) are a doddle.
That is the downside of resin casting, though. The resin WILL damage the rubber over time (and some release agents don't help). You can generally only get around 50 casts out of a resin mold. You can in theory get around 100 metal casts from a well made mold, but the resin is cheaper to buy.
Whilst going through some old SoLegends stuff, I've seen "invisible" frodos for LoTR, and there's the giant template for WHFB now. I presume they sold a few of these. They would've made a killing from a "limited edition" "invisible lictor or stealth suit. They've proven they CAN do them.
Trench-Raider wrote:Wow.
This thread is STILL going on? That is interesting. Since one of the major themes in this one is the morality of recasting and the like I'll chime in with my views on the issue.
TR
no, it's a major theme that keeps getting drug out of the woodshed and beat to death.. the major theme here is..
back to the original question..
"Counterfeit Miniatures, ever received any? How'd you know? Have any good resources online people can use to check what they do get? " In other words, who give a flying rats arse about what's moral or immoral about recasting.. The question is, as a buyer, how do you protect yourself from it..
Let's take the moral/immoral issues and either seperate them form the thread or lock this up.. Sheesh.
Unfortunately I cannot disclose much more than the case number and names.
The defendant was a ebay seller who was caught selling counterfeit miniatures. GW sued for about $xxxxxx and won the case but only got a judgment of about $xxxxx against the defendant.
Trench-Raider wrote:
GW already sued and won in US District Court.
GAMES WORKSHOP LTD., Plaintiff, v. BRIAN BEAL, Defendant.
Case No. 04-0013-CV-W-FJG
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF MISSOURI, WESTERN DIVISION
2006 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 22525
Hmm...
"Goblins-Goodies" was out of Missouri. If I recall correctly, so was Mac-Ace. Is this case one of those two infamous commercial recasters? Does anyone know the details of the case?
inquisitor_bob wrote:BTW, I'm not trying to keep secrets. It's just that my contract with Lexis Nexis prohibit me from disclosing any more information.
It's rather strange that this case is on Lexis Nexis but not on Westlaw.
I'm sure you can find this case online somewhere in its entirety. It is quite interesting.
A quick look at the 'net shows this to be "Mac-Ace". A partial news story shows that the case concluded in 2007. This was a couple of years after he stopped selling on Ebay. The litigation must have taken some time.
Now you have me curious about the details of the case.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Giant template is made in China...
So are the etched brass bits and the "markerlight" laser pointer.
My point is, they did it at least once already (albeit as a subcontracted job). There's nothing stopping them from doing it again.
Even if they were just FW special limited editions these days. There are crowds of people who will buy resin stuff JUST because it has the FW branding on it. It isn't that difficult to do a clear resin batch and then go back to the grey stuff.
As to how to protect yourself from it?
Knowledge is power. Learn to spot them. I only buy my 2nd hand stuff in person, where I can physically handle the items and look them over. I don't buy off ebay. I have seen a few recasts in person, although, being associated with the napoleonics/WW2 and other gaming groups gives me a different perspective (it's a common thing not frowned upon in several of them - for some, you were sold a mold with a casting, and were encouraged to make your own.).
Pewter yellowing is a combination of UV interacting with the mold release and general oxidation processes. I had a bunch of still in blister GW stock (SM from late 2nd ed) do this. A good clean and prime and they are fine.
Trench-Raider wrote:A quick look at the 'net shows this to be "Mac-Ace". A partial news story shows that the case concluded in 2007. This was a couple of years after he stopped selling on Ebay. The litigation must have taken some time.
Now you have me curious about the details of the case.
TR
Didn't we determine that Mac and GG were the same guy, or were they different after all?
Trench-Raider wrote:A quick look at the 'net shows this to be "Mac-Ace". A partial news story shows that the case concluded in 2007. This was a couple of years after he stopped selling on Ebay. The litigation must have taken some time.
Now you have me curious about the details of the case.
TR
Didn't we determine that Mac and GG were the same guy, or were they different after all?
Nope.
While oddly enough both guys in question lived in the same state they are/were different people with different MOs.
Goblins-goodies was probably using a large comercial size casting machine and sold his stuff in large lots. He cast in a pewter alloy and his work was actually quite good. He mostly sold OOPGW stuff, but he also made casts of other miniatures such as Foundry and Copplestone Castings.
Mac-Ace on the other hand sold individual miniatures or small lots and exclusively dealt in OOPGW stuff. His models were roughly cast and he was probably doing "pour" or drop casting. He also cast in a soft lead alloy and all his figures were primed white to hide the casting errors.
What may have confused you is that as Ebay began to take the recaster thing more seriously, both used multible accounts to try to hide their status. For example GG also sold under an account named "funstuffinnyc".
As resins are all two-part mixes, either the resin or hardener could have colour added to it. Colours also vary between resins in the same type (polyurethane has at least three colours that I know of - epoxy has at least 4).
I can cast white resin from a "clear" simply by mixing in talc to my resin before adding hardener, for example. The resin becomes slightly softer (as talc is a soft mineral), but it will still hold detail the same.
FW have used at least three different coloured resins since they set up shop. All varieties of grey, but as different from each other as the grey plastic GW uses for its space marines.
Here are some indicators: Shiny metal, detail not as "crisp" as other GW stuff, sometimes you see holes where air bubbles hit the side, and eBay BiN prices dramatically below market value.
There was a flood of counterfits when Epic Armageddon was still selling well. Some guy with a spincaster was selling copies of the really expensive models and stupid-low prices. I spent a good while reporting him to both eBay and GW. No idea what became of it other than his auctions stopped appearing.
Daemonettes, Seekers and Wraithguard - all brand new, all without boxes or decals, all in large units, all shiny and brand new, all are very expensive originally and all have been sold multiple times.
George Spiggott wrote:Several reasons, bad luck or stock clearance for example. There's no way the Deamonettes are fakes, it makes no economic sense to make them.
I have no idea about those seekers, but all I do know is that I buy ALL my mini's off The Warstore or from GW's hands themselves. Anything else is either fake, or some people just can't be trusted (too much risk on bartertown if ya asks me)
I'm a graphic artworker myself so I have to deal with this issue in my work. In the event anyone should steal my work I take the view of photographer Peter Rickards of aflictedyard.com, namely "steal my work and I will stab you!"
That seller has 12 x Daemonettes, 6 x fiends and 10 x wraithguard for sale.
Since December they have sold 36x Daemonettes, 12 x seekers, 10 x wraithguard, 3 x Eldar HW platforms and 1 x Avatar.
There are no items in boxes, no items with Decals, and no items that look in any way old, used or scuffed from being stored out of their box (like my old unpainted figs do).
There may be another explanation for it, however I can't imagine many people having 48 unpainted unassembled Daemonettes (plus all the others) - it beggars belief.
Not making a value call - it just looks like this person if making copies IMO - and making some coin along the way.
George Spiggott wrote:Several reasons, bad luck or stock clearance for example. There's no way the Deamonettes are fakes, it makes no economic sense to make them.
Accusing this guy of fraud is a bit off IMO.
Something about self-fulfilling prophecies.
who is this seller and please link me to him, i would like to purchase some fine, home made GW miniatures.
enmitee wrote:who is this seller and please link me to him, i would like to purchase some fine, home made GW miniatures.
Funny thing is they sell for more than a GW box set of Daemonettes do!
So unless you want to buy the 2002 casts in particular (which I guess is the whole point) you are better off with the GW current release (from a monetary point of view).
Oh this is just within the recent ones.
Not to mention the seller also do sales OFF ebay .
I sent a few message hinting if i can order some more directly , they replied as many as i want.
I gave them some haggling price of like 40% off , they refused and say 20%. If 40% they said they'll be
auctioning them off again, and i can try to bid them below 40% off value. etc etc.
*PS for those that is trying desperately to find the seller on ebay atm, you wont find anything.
I took the consideration of waiting till all the last batch of items are sold, and off listing before i post this. But no worries im sure you'll see them soon enough.
Neconilis wrote:*sigh* Am I the only here who grows tired of the self-righteousness?
;-)
Have you tried the unsubscribe button?
Am I the only one who grows tired of the bellicose attitudes?
Really not trolling or looking for a silly internet argument that's utterly pointless, that was a literal sigh and thought (then typed) comment. Take it however you wish.
Also look at the plastic quality i have a set of scouts that are counterfit yet it is not a GW store but he claims to be since when do GW sell pool tables LAWL any way look out for people like that.
Inquisitor_Bob: How did you get access to the material's in that case file exactly? I've done a fair bit of digging around Missouri's legal system and found their cock-blocking of public information troublesome.
MODERATE back on Page 5, and Two_heads_talking: Your efforts are duly noted.
To the general forum: If you've never received any counterfeits, or have not had any direct experience with them, or have no online resources which make for good material in identifying said items (or are not potential evidence of said items) - shhhtart your topic in a new thread please. Otherwise, given the amount of "opinion" posted on various topics - My opinion is you're trolling. And since FIRE is the only sure-fire (har har) way of dealing with a troll - please read my sig.
It has been asked "what models?" and "by whom?"
After I return this evening I will be posting some additional materials. What I can say this is: I've done some minor comparative tests and so far my findings indicate a quantitative difference between what I own and what I received.
Look at all those satisfied customers on the screen shot of the seller's feedback. To make matters worse consider that in some cases (and this has been my experience over the years) up to a quarter of all Ebay buyers don't leave any feedback at all. Thus this seller might be selling even more than you all realise. (and yes, just for the record I susepect that this "sexy lingerie" person is selling recasts)
The last page or so have nice illistrated one of the delimas of the recasting issue. This came up alot on the Citadel Collectors group. Aside from blowing the whistle on them, the best way to stop commercial recasters is to expose them. However the problem with that is that you wind up drumming up more business for them in the process of doing so. There is always going to be a segement of the gaming population that simply does not care. These folks are going to say "Yeah this guy is selling recasts, but what the hell? If I clean, paint, and base these things no one is going to know. There is no practical way to detect recasts after they have been painted, so I'm going to take advantage of a good deal."
And you know what? They are factually correct. They are not going to get caught. I mean really. Have you ever seen a staffer at a GW event (let alone a FLGS) going around checking everyone's miniatures to see if they are genuine? Neither have I. What are they going to do? Say "Ok, Wraithguard are amongst the most commonly recast current models. So we are going to weigh all the Wraithguard at this event to determine metal content." and crack out the scales? Don't be absurd...
GW may talk a good game about stopping recasting and there have been isolated cases of lawsuits in the past, but the vast, vast majority of recasters (and almost ALL of their customers) get away with it in the real world.
Finally let me close with this comment:
While (as is the case with all crimes) the final decision to sell recast minitaures lies with the recaster, GW shares at least some complicity in this. They helped to create the market for recast miniatures with their prices and business practices. Had they not raised their prices many times the rate of inflation over the years (especially in the case of their metal lines which are absolutely obcene any more) the incentive to buy and sell recasts would be greatly reduced. Likewise had they not greatly cut back on the availability of "archive" miniatures, the market for recasts of OOP models would be reduced as well.
In the end, it's a case of karma coming back to bite them on the a--.
What about my mother ? she dont know internet, please
explain?
LunaHound - You keep writing comments about your mother and "living situation" with her on the forum - and it's not only off topic every single time I've seen it, it's entirely disrespectful. Stop doing it. And knock off that self deprecating crap about your english. You've left over 1600 posts in under three months - it's pretty clear your english is at least as good as a lot of the other people here.
All that being said, do you know why Jesus is about to cry? You didn't bother reading my last post entirely did ya? Hm? HM??? HMMMM????
-------now that they're sufficiently confused, I shall post my findings from the local post office (which I also had verified on the scale used by the clerks to send packages):
First, the miniature I have suspicions about comes in 2 pieces in the package - 1 is a body with tab, is a sprue with other bits.
Weigh in results using a digital scale (two scales used, results the same):
My original copy: 0.40 ounces for the body bit, 0.40 ounces for the sprue bits
The version I received in trade: 0.50 ounces for the body bit, 0.40 ounces for the sprue bits.
Difference: 0.10 ounces.
Scratch test:
Bit set, using less pressure, left a noticably darker marking on the paper than the original copy as well as a recent edition Emperor's Champion, recent casting Azrael, "heroes of the Adeptus Astartes" box set Azrael, and a mid to late 1990's azrael and Brother Bethor casting. Unlike the originals I have, it took far less pressure to achieve the same or darker results on the scratch test at any given equivalent angle - to the point where similar coloration would require ripping the paper to achieve with the legitimate copies.
Visual inspection:
Aside from damage on the front of the model (where a scratch of some type tore a piece of detailing clean off the model leaving a rather shiney series of marks), the coloration is substantially different, and under LED lighting the coloration is has a blue-grey appearance.
And the body-bit tab is noticably thinner on the trade-received than the copy I already owned (which I picked up at Games Day for those interested to know).
Other tests:
Model has a waxy feel to it. In fact, all the items received in this trade have a waxy feel.
I will have to send these items to GW-UK for their "crack team analysis", but probably not before I take this to be analyzed with a fun device that gives readings on chemical compositions.
what does me and my mom have to do with this thread?
what does my english have to do with how much i post?
Aslong as people understand what im trying to say, its ok no?
And thats all i can offer, grammar etc etc, bad sentence structure etc etc, as i said earlier i apologize if its bad.
I will have to send these items to GW-UK for their "crack team analysis", but probably not before I take this to be analyzed with a fun device that gives readings on chemical compositions.
Which of course will cost you yet money for shipping, the analysis, etc. Why throw good money after bad? Why not just paint it up and use it?
what does me and my mom have to do with this thread?
what does my english have to do with how much i post?
Aslong as people understand what im trying to say, its ok no?
And thats all i can offer, grammar etc etc, bad sentence structure etc etc, as i said earlier i apologize if its bad.
See, your english is fine - but you say "sorry for my bad english." It's nonsense - do you understand now? Your english is not an issue for anyone here (you write better than a lot native speakers honestly). And your mother - you keep talking about how you paid the mortgage and how your money gets used up by her 'spending habits.' It's none of our business and it makes you look very disrespectful. You've done that in several threads - stop it!
And what you're doing is trolling right now - your post with ebay feedback was NOT trolling, but you really should post the user name OR report them to eBay and GW yourself.
Trench-Raider wrote:
I will have to send these items to GW-UK for their "crack team analysis", but probably not before I take this to be analyzed with a fun device that gives readings on chemical compositions.
Which of course will cost you yet money for shipping, the analysis, etc. Why throw good money after bad? Why not just paint it up and use it?
TR
Shipping is reimbursed by GW, analysis costs me almost nothing to perform, and I have standards which you clearly don't if you're willing to bend over when someone gives it to you (unless you're asking for it of course, in which case I don't really need to know what you're doing do I?).
But never fear, should this prove to be a true case of counterfeiting, which I've no doubt of at this point (though there is still the possiblility which is why further analysis is needed) - I may very well backhand this user so hard that Jesus winces.
Why bother? I'm not Jesus. What do I care if Jesus winces?
See, your english is fine - but you say "sorry for my bad english." It's nonsense - do you understand now? Your english is not an issue for anyone here (you write better than a lot native speakers honestly). And your mother - you keep talking about how you paid the mortgage and how your money gets used up by her 'spending habits.' It's none of our business and it makes you look very disrespectful. You've done that in several threads - stop it!
And what you're doing is trolling right now - your post with ebay feedback was NOT trolling, but you really should post the user name OR report them to eBay and GW yourself.
I still dont understand your point , so i'll explain it better.
I have encounter numerous times where people tell me that my sentence structure is weird or none n.american . I know they dont mean harm
when they say that, but i do notice what they are talking about. The most i do is try to correct the spelling ( since it underlines red for
typo anyways ). Many times i have edited same post 2-3 times because i noticed i used wrong word or the sentence seriously lacked
the grammar parts. But at times im just lazy and didnt catch the mistakes. So for that if people have hard time understanding what i typed,
then i apologize to them. ( why is this wrong or trolling? )
About what i asked in my other threads, why bring it in here? If you have problems with what i posted in other thread, say it there.
I still dont see why you bring it up here.
You dont know anything about my family , or lack of family, nor did i bad mouth her in anyway.
I only give as much info as it takes for people to help me with my dilemma , nothing more, nothing less. If i tell you more about my family you would probably
understand and stop troubling me. But in this thread i see no reason why we even need to discuss about my family.
So i dont understand why you keep bringing it up!
Why do you say im trolling because i dont list the seller's name? You already knew people are seriously looking for
counterfeiter to buy from , you want me to list them so they can purchase counterfeits easier? WTF are you insane?
Iron Fists point is that at no time, in thread, especially about counterfeit minis, should your mom or any of your personal life situations be brought up. NEVER. It's a ploy for sympathy and this thread doesn't need it, so, leave the mamma drama at home..
And he's saying there is no need to constantly refer back to 'your bad English' when it's clear from your posts, that your English isn't that bad.
If you are still having a hard time understanding those two issues, then I was wrong in my assessment of your English ability ....
two_heads_talking wrote:Iron Fists point is that at no time, in thread, especially about counterfeit minis, should your mom or any of your personal life situations be brought up. NEVER. It's a ploy for sympathy and this thread doesn't need it, so, leave the mamma drama at home..
And he's saying there is no need to constantly refer back to 'your bad English' when it's clear from your posts, that your English isn't that bad.
If you are still having a hard time understanding those two issues, then I was wrong in my assessment of your English ability ....
Corect, correct, and thank you for your efforts once more, but I'm going to have to knock this one clear off my thread once and for all.
LunaHound wrote: (...) Granted me and my mom paid off our mortgage 2 years ago , but that did nothing to change my spending habits. ( mom is horrible as always ) (...)
LunaHound wrote:(...)Well, my mom dont work, dad divorced and left us years ago. So ya im pretty much alone in this. I'll tell you yes, i never been in the same situation as you "as provider for family" but i know myself, as in i will know to choose or not choose "my hobby" to something that suits my budget. Know what i mean?
You're talking about your family and the comments about your mother are less than flattering. That's bad mouthing.
As for the rest of what you've written - I told you there's nothing wrong with your english, so there's no point in commenting about it. I also said "post that eBay user's info (implied: so they can be reported) OR report them to eBay and GW yourself." The extraneous implied is "if you don't report them, you're just as guilty as they are."
Do you understand, or do you need more information?
Bad mouthing? im raising valid points through examples of my personal experience instead of arguing with things made up out of the blue.
Nice try, quote the whole convo next time instead of just my part and it'll make more sense then your empty claim.
Lets see, secret squig brought up about how family situation can change what we value or consider moral.
TheSecretSquig wrote:
I don't mean this discrimantory, because you have provided a very mature argument and your age hasn't come in to it, Lets have this conversation again, when you've reached +30, have a Mortgage, a Car Loan, and all the bills that go with runing a house, wife, children, and your paying for all this yourself without support from Mum & Dad. Then, lets see if you'll turn down the oppertunity to save a few £££ by buying some counterfeit models.
While i dont agree with him, i do understand where he is comming from. And with this example, i used my own real life situation.
That my situation is poor too, but i'll deal with it with by not getting involved with expensive hobby. I only brought up to tell him i know what it feels like to be supporting a family,
and it doesnt have to effect how we value our morality.
And why are you reporting me? what for? Because i brought up truth you didnt like?
I'll have mod read the stupid private messages you sent me claiming im helping counterfeiters then.
Because you know its JUST SO IRONIC , you dont want me to tell others how to avoid coutnerfeiters
while yourself was scammed. bit of karma perhaps?
I can see this thread getting locked fast if you two don't stay on topic.
Iron fist...there really is no point in bringing up anything about Luna's parents or personal situations. Even if it was in this thread it was 10 pages back and isn't relevant to the current discussion anyway. Just leave it.
Luna...just ignore him.
Now if you don't mind..I'm more interested in knowing what the test results revealed than your argument with another member.
Alright, I'm lost here; why do you think ironfist has a personal vendetta against you Luna?
I don't understand this sentence.
"But i know ironfist have personal vendetta against me since he bought the counterfeit item from that other guy and some how he associates it with me."
Why would he blame you for having received a copied miniature?
So, first post, don't get upset. Reproduction is simply a question of market value. A unique item cannot be copied as it is unique. An item whose creator has signed a contract allowing reproduction can be copied multiple times, the only value attached is that which the consumer gives it. This value cannot be 'stolen', it can only be exchanged.
@ lunahound, your English is ok, although you should practice your articles. I think the problem is more of a culture clash than anything else, but don't worry about it too much, everyone brings up their wives and girlfriends but mothers seem to be taboo for some people.
First, I don't see why people are jumping on Luna.
Second, *of course* there's a lot of fishiness on eBay. eBay is only good for illegal activities, just like Pirate Bay.
Thirdly, those Daemonettes look awfully tasty, especially as-priced, but why are there so many poses if recasting?!? If you're recasting, you want to minimize poses to maximize return on molds. OTOH, if he's pulling $100 USD per listing (2.5x previous retail), maybe it works after all...
People are jumping on Luna due to Luna making continued pious and morally superior posts flaming all and sundry then rolling over and baring (his/her) belly anytime someone returns fire, seeking to elicit sympathy.
I think Luna and those who so vehemently agree and decry in the same manner should consider that their upright morals and strong convictions are commendable and then second consider using all that vigilance and moral piety for something worthwhile like cleaning a local beach or volunteering at the homeless centre instead of launching full scale witch hunts on this forum.
I am morbidly fascinated at why Lunahound is so rabid on the subject however, not only this thread but the swapshop thread on someone selling that SW marine with LC and then the Rumours thread on the same model.
Given the GW response when I asked after finding some of those deamonettes (basically 'No, we don't have any left, try ebay') I might be making enquiries myself. Thanks for the link.
with an iron fist wrote:
Inquisitor_Bob: How did you get access to the material's in that case file exactly? I've done a fair bit of digging around Missouri's legal system and found their cock-blocking of public information troublesome
The case has not been published in any legal publication yet. That's why it has a Lexis Nexis number rather than a real citation number. By the way, only cases that are appealed are on publication. Cases resolved in lower courts with no appeals are not listed on legal research. My access is due to being a law student and we have access to both Lexis Nexis and Westlaw.
Most law firms also have both systems. On another note, anyone can go into a public law school and use the law library to research case law.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:People are jumping on Luna due to Luna making continued pious and morally superior posts flaming all and sundry then rolling over and baring (his/her) belly anytime someone returns fire, seeking to elicit sympathy.
I think Luna and those who so vehemently agree and decry in the same manner should consider that their upright morals and strong convictions are commendable and then second consider using all that vigilance and moral piety for something worthwhile like cleaning a local beach or volunteering at the homeless centre instead of launching full scale witch hunts on this forum.
I am morbidly fascinated at why Lunahound is so rabid on the subject however, not only this thread but the swapshop thread on someone selling that SW marine with LC and then the Rumours thread on the same model.
Given the GW response when I asked after finding some of those deamonettes (basically 'No, we don't have any left, try ebay') I might be making enquiries myself. Thanks for the link.
One simple reason MGS . When i tell the truth , and people refuses to believe me, i feel inclined to prove it to them. I could tell you what made me into doing that
but then you guys will just say im using what happend to me in real life to *elicit sympathy .
Which is 100% pure B*S* As i already stated i use the example someone used ( i even quoted them ) to respond to their question.
What i asked in other threads which is nothing to do with this thread, why you guys are using it for witch hunting me , is pretty rabid too.
LunaHound wrote: why you guys are using it for witch hunting me , is pretty rabid too.
The only real witch hunt going on here is Iron Fist trying to figure out ifhe has or does not have counterfeit minis.. The rest of this posting garbage is so much ragdoll/straw men.
quit taking the thread and getting upset over it and taking it personally. Just drive on, make your post and leave it be..
H.B.M.C. wrote:Very shiny lead models with low detail levels. Good way to tell.
It's all shiny to me, I used to collect before 'White Metal' was introduced and miss the lead days, lead was so damned pliable and you could bend a model's arm into a pose or tilt a head, the current metal seems so very brittle to me.
Couple of questions though,
a) won't the shift to plastics and the plastic sprue style make it far more difficult to reproduce?
b) is there a crime in making miniatures that the parent company no longer produces and refuses to stock or support? (like said deamonettes? if enough reproduced models get on the market, they will bring down the crazy price by competing...)
I'm aware it's illegal and they own the intellectual property, the original design etc.
I was not asking if it was against the law, I was asking if it was a crime.
It's a bit like using company time to trawl internet forums whilst being paid by your employing company to do the work they pay you for, whilst strictly speaking that's totally wrong, most could turn a blind eye to it, if it's only a little bit, right?
I did purchase some ig troopers on ebay a couple of months back, 20 of them for half the price.
I thought it was a little strange, having such a good discount. They were advertised by the seller as:
"half the price because we save money on buying minis without the boxes"
I did not think anything of it, when I recieved the minis, they looked exactly the same in size and detail, what gave it away for me was the color os the plastic which was much darker, and the excess plastic on the sprues. I did end up using the models since they look exactly the same painted but decide not to purchase anymore models from the seller out of principle.
a) won't the shift to plastics and the plastic sprue style make it far more difficult to reproduce?
This is where we see the high value metal figures being reproduced. There will (IMO) continue to be metal figures as the lead up production costs are much lower to get them to market.
Plastic figures are unattractive to reproduce as they are not too expensive per figure anyway. Perhaps Chinese manufacturers would create plastic for sale cheap, as they are able to tool up pretty quickly - especially when GW has done all the sprue layout for them...
b) is there a crime in making miniatures that the parent company no longer produces and refuses to stock or support? (like said deamonettes? if enough reproduced models get on the market, they will bring down the crazy price by competing...)
Yes it's a crime if they still hold the copyright.
Just look at the "MAME" environment of old video games. The resurrection of old video games to be played on new PCs made the copyright holders realise they had a potential market - and hence they started enforcing their copyright.
One good thing that could come out of it is that they could start doing more special orders of old casts (such as the daemonettes etc) that are popular.
Ironically, the wraithguard on Australian ebay is now more expensive than you could buy them cheaply online in original packaging! The daemonettes that were sold also sold for well above the standard sticker price for 12.
Can anyone aside from the people who have contributed useful material (Inquisitor_bob, Two_heads_talking, that moderator back on Page 5) already contribute something towards the topic of dealing with counterfits or should I just ask to have this thread locked due to the rampant amount of nonsense and lack of decorum being thrown about?
This material is useful as there are people out there trying to take advantage of the general community but it's nearly impossible for anyone to find anything relevant if most of the comments don't address the issue specifically.
For me at least this is a pisser of an issue - I may have literally traded $100 in original GW models for counterfeits and I find that unacceptable. If you don't mind receiving fake goods, then by all means tell me you'll trade full retail/FMV for fakes as if they're originals and see if that crap isn't laughed off clean off the thread.
with an iron fist wrote:Can anyone aside from the people who have contributed useful material (Inquisitor_bob, Two_heads_talking, that moderator back on Page 5) already contribute something towards the topic of dealing with counterfits or should I just ask to have this thread locked due to the rampant amount of nonsense and lack of decorum being thrown about?
This material is useful as there are people out there trying to take advantage of the general community but it's nearly impossible for anyone to find anything relevant if most of the comments don't address the issue specifically.
For me at least this is a pisser of an issue - I may have literally traded $100 in original GW models for counterfeits and I find that unacceptable. If you don't mind receiving fake goods, then by all means tell me you'll trade full retail/FMV for fakes as if they're originals and see if that crap isn't laughed off clean off the thread.
Well first off I think anyone who pays full retail for any of this stuff is crazy, and/or has way too much disposable income. Though admittedly that's just my opinion. To answer your question though, if I traded original models for equal amounts of non legit models that were at least as good as the originals, well my honest answer to that is whoop de do. So yeah, there you go. If everyone else thinks that's laughable then so be it, but that's the truth.
LunaHound wrote:What i asked in other threads which is nothing to do with this thread, why you guys are using it for witch hunting me , is pretty rabid too.
Why do you think? Because we don't like you and want you to leave.
Orkeosaurus: Yep, my wording was poor, hence Mad Dok answering in the obvious.
Mad Dok: I know you mentioned you got fired, hence my questioning about your very black and white stance. Your taking an absolute right v wrong angle on this issue but I would have thought due to recent experience, you'd be prepared to concede that actual this is a fairly morally ambiguous argument. You worked someplace that had a rule about using the interwebs yet chose to flout that rule, so there really is a rebel under all that fervent saluting and reminding kids that crime doesn't pay.
Is this on a massive scale, does GW really feel the impact of counterfeiting any more than it's affected adversely by the resell market since the explosion of ebay. I don't believe so, they occasionally bust a few heads as an example but that seems to be it.
When I decided I wanted the Juan Diaz (? the metal ones with movement to them) Daemonettes and I called GW (this was a few months ago), the guy sighed down the phone and said they were finished making them, so I asked if they had any old stock, no you must buy the new models. I asked how it was they had the old bog ugly ghouls they had discontinued a couple of years ago but no more daemonettes that they had replaced about 2 months prior, the guy refused to answer and so I asked if perhaps he could let me know any of the indi retailers they supplied might have some, again nothing. I asked him if they still held the moulds, could there be a chance of them issuing some if popular demand suggested they'd sell, there is after all a section for 'collectors' daemons that they could put them on, could I ask that be submitted as customer feedback? No. There is a current box of daemonettes, you should use those. I asked again, any way someone had some I could buy? The guy sighed again and said 'Ebay mate'. Fine and dandy, I will buy from ebay and couldn't give two gaks about whether its a forgery frankly.
Those of you stating this is a terrible thing, it's illegal and if GW had not abandoned it's bits service and maintaining it's old ranges I might even be onside but the fact remains GW don't provide the service they once did and it seems to be becoming more streamlined all the time, the forging and resell and 'near imitation' companies that are springing up are filling the niche left by GW and I for one will use them if it suits and rest easy in my bed.
Axyl wrote:I can see this thread getting locked fast if you two don't stay on topic.
Iron fist...there really is no point in bringing up anything about Luna's parents or personal situations. Even if it was in this thread it was 10 pages back and isn't relevant to the current discussion anyway. Just leave it.
Luna...just ignore him.
Now if you don't mind..I'm more interested in knowing what the test results revealed than your argument with another member.
Wise words, Axyl.
It's time to lock the thread.
It has gone on long enough and there are plenty of personal sniping attacks happening which we can do without.
To those involved, a note has been taken of your names. Please be aware that repeated violation of the rule on politeness is liable lead to warnings and suspensions.
Back on topic, if anyone suspects they have bought counterfeit figures, the Hasslefree Miniatures forum threads referenced earlier give some good tips for spotting them, and also explains the background of how counterfeiting can hurt legitimate sellers.
If someone disagrees with my locking the thread, please contact another moderator.
and yes that's right it was a counterfeit the model was shiny as hell and here face was not that detailed but it was ten bucks so what the hell still not right thou
'em.
Reproduction is simply a question of market value. A unique item cannot be copied as it is unique. An item whose creator has signed a contract allowing reproduction can be copied multiple times, the only value attached is that which the consumer gives it. This value cannot be 'stolen', it can only be exchanged.
