Just what it says. With all of the 2nd ed goodness popping up in 5th, "What will the Eldar Gain/Lose in the next Codex?"

Its still probably a ways off but its never to early to start dreaming/wishing. Enough positive thought might bring something cool into reality.

My first five changes are:

1) Wraithlords can carry the D-Cannon, Vibro cannon, or the Death spinner cannon as the primary gun.

2)The Solitaire returns and gives the Harlies a teleport ability.

3)Have the Autarch make the Eldar stubborn and move the pheonix lords and avatar to Apoc like whats rumored for the C'Tan. This leaves room for the exarchs to inmprove.

4) Base Eldar BS is 4. They've lived through thousands of years of warfare and like basic IG? I don't care if they are citizen militia. A 1000 years of being on active reserve you'd know how to shoot.

5)Shuriken catapults all get the 18" range


That's where I'd start. I'd like to hear what more experienced players (I mainly play my Tau) want. Especially with whats been coming out.

To further differentiate Eldar from SM and Tau, they need to be much more deadly in the 12' zone.

With the run rule adding speed to enemy units, universal cover saves and less deadly deep strike and more common deep strikes, the eldar maneuver advantage is largely gone. Falcon gunships are less survivable and have less firepower. Lastly the change to hold objectives versus eliminating enemies means much of the eldar infantry must sit alone unsupported on dispersed objectives.

Tied down, unable to gain much of a speed advantage and unable to bring specialized units to bear on the desired targets makes the eldar glass cannon too weak.


To compensate, the eldar need more firepower as befits their fluff.
Shurican Catapults need to be Assault 4, Pistols 2 and Cannons 6.
Scatter lasers should be A5, Star Cannons back to A3.

Wraithguard need a close combat upgrade option, such as a force pike, and blast for wraith cannons. 36 points a model is still over priced for what they currently bring to a table. They should be comparable to oblits and terminators, but instead are currently walking fire magnets like ogryn.

Assault aspects need to be able to assault out of transports. In a straight up melee banshees and scorps will win against their weight in marines or orks, but it is rare they get the chance when they must walk, and the specialization between them makes multiple units difficult to field in a take all comers force.

Defenders need to be able to take heavy weapons platforms. Distort cannons need large blast templates. Sonic lances should work like their titan cousins. Spinners need a larger template.

Storm Squads need to be rethought. They die from shooting and in assault only do well against guard and tau. With the new deadlier close combat phase, they don't belong and I've never seen them fielded. Increasing their close combat skills makes them too much like scorpions, and defenders already bring firepower. They should be retired for now.

Warp Spiders need their flame templates back, and an exarch ability to deep strike like a drop pod.

War Walkers need to be able to upgrade to a single D cannon, vibro or weaver.

Falcons need BS 4.

I like the increased firepower idea. I keep telling people that coversaves and the run rule in 5 th have about halved shooting effectiveness. I like pistol 2 but think assault 3 catapults and and assault 4 rending cannons is a little closer to bieng balanced. Thats because I realllly want bs 4 for the eldar.

I think instead of everything getting the higher rate of Fire(ROF) that the eldar get some cool cover denying weapons. Heck bring back the crystal targeting matrix as a vehicle upgrade that removes cover saves at -1 BS. This last bit would only be if the base BS goes up to 4(Reallly want it).

I completely agree about the wraithguard pricing but am unsure of weather a points drop or weapon upgrade is the way to go.

Aspects are pretty good but should have the option for warlocks. I think that the warlocks or exarchs should have a deny morale break power that they can use once per game where if an enemy is going to break and leave them exposed to enemy fire that they can keep them locked in combat until the next assault phase.

I like the heavy weapons in squads idea but leave the the templates the same but have them deny cover. Make all deathspinner variants rending? Just an idea.

I actually like the Storms with an enhanced warlock. I still field them regularly in my mechdar as cheap units that can still do a number all around. They won't take out an elite squad but do ok against any basic troop as long as you use them as intended.

War walkers are just fine as they are if BS goes up to 4(realllly want it!).


The conceal ability either needs to be +2 cover save or it confers the stealth ability(minus infiltrate) upon the unit joined. Take your pick.

BBUUUMMMPPP

I'll give a few ideas and then respond to the previous comments

1) Make guardians cheaper. The are to expensive for the very limited utility.

2) Some slight change to the shuriken catapult would be nice but I doubt anything is going to change.

3) Lower cost slightly on the wave serpent. In 5th ed transports all around are getting point cost reduction. 35 point rhinos and soon to be 55 point chimeras from 50/85 base respectively.

4) For the love of god make vyper jetbikes have 2 wounds toughness 4 and a 3+ save and not some crappy armor rating. They will be so much more effective.

5) Bring back the Solitaire Harlequins and give harlequins rending for free now since it isn't nearly as good. There is no reason to give him a teleport ability it makes absolutely no sense. Not even other harelquins interact with the solitaire because he represents slaanesh. He would have to be an independent character that is unable to join units. Give him eternal warrior or something so he can't be oneshotted though.

6) Since this is warhammer 40k cover save edition, the eldar need access to a reliable source of template weapons. I suggest allowing warp spiders to switch their death spinners from ranged to template weapons. Remember back in 2nd ed they all had flamers. (make an I check or die flamers to boot!!)




In response to the previous posters

Sometype of assaulting transport is needed or a special rule allowing assault combats to charge out of serpents is totally necessary. Not having anything sucks

I think BS 3 Guardians makes sense. They are workers first before they are fighters so they don't keep in practice I guess. Also mechanic wise in game its a nice distinction between them aspect warriors and exarchs.

I'm on the fence about Storm Guardians to be honest, having a warlock with Enhance is still pretty handy.

As for the superior firepower comments I don't know. I've always seen Eldar as a finely crafted knife of an army. They can do anything exceedingly well but can't do everything at once. If their firepowr is buffed to much then it will reduce their close combat capabilities. An eldar army should not be able to outshoot Guard and out combat marines. They should be able to do 1 or the other. Its how they've always played.

I highly doubt Avatar and phoenix lords are going to be moved to Apoc. I mean they have been in the game since 2nd ed. Maybe Phoenix lords wold function like marine special characters do now. Jain Zar allows for banshees to be taken as troops and so on.

I agree something needs to be done with falcons.

Actually, I could see aspects moving to bs5 and exarchs at bs6 so the guardians bs 4 isn't to over the top. The Eldar will never be able to out gun the IG just due to lack of numbers and shorter ranges of their small arms.

I can see guardians costing about 6pts or still at 8pts with bs4. I think that they should get Haywire grenades as upgrade an option though.

I completely agree with the vyper idea. The squadron rule and av 10 just hurts them a little to much. They definitely need something, maybe something like smoke launchers or disruption pods

The assault transport makes them Dark Eldar. I like the idea but would need some level of differentiation. But whatever happens a points drop on all of the vehicles and maybe their upgrades is in order.


The majority of my ideas are aimed at reducing the farseer dependence. There are so many HQs but how many really get used. Why buy a 200 point Pheonix Lord when you can have another farseer. Increase basic bs and doom/guideseers aren't so mission critical. There are a bunch of cool leaders but the combos are always farseer with something else it seems like

I do like the Phoenix lords helping to define the army/craftworld but am unsure if that is the way it will go.

I have no problem with the solitaire as an IC but then he could just join the unit any way. What special abilities would you give the Solitaire?

Out of many of the changes in 5th, the thing that bugs me the most is that fleet of foot doesn't mean as much as it used to. In fact for eldar, fleet doesn't really give them that much use at all.

So perhaps as an incentive for an eldar player to choose to run instead of shoot. For instance (this is just off the top of my head), perhaps there could be an upgrade or ability that gives eldar units a 4+ or 5+ cover save if they move more than 6 inches in one turn, or as an alternative, +1 to their current cover save (making a 4+ a 3+).

Another alternative that might also work in the favor of the eldar to make them quicker is to allow all fleet units to roll 2d6 for running instead of just a single d6. This would give an edge over normal running units and would indeed make them 'faster'.


These are just a few quick thoughts so take them as you will, but eldar really need an edge over other armies in the fleet/running area of the army.

Maybe they can run AND shoot?

Upping the shots of the starcannon by 1 making it 3 again.

Upping the shots of Reapers from 2 to 3 (Lootas can shoot better at the moment, come on.

Upping Wraithlord attacks by 1 to 3.

Agree with the Wraithlord kit, D-Cannon and other stuff would be nice and possible with a plastic heavy weapon kit (aka interchangeable)

Warp spiders -> templates (and new models!!!!)
only having warlocks for destructors is a bit silly imo.

I like the wraithguard as they are right now. Tough to crack and deadly if you come too near with the wrong units but not über in all regards. Maybe a bit cheaper would make sense. They'll get a plastic kit, so we can expect to get good rules

BS 4 is not needed imo, most of the units have BS>3 anyway.

Defenders should be the prime unit for holding an objective, maybe giving them, let's see, defensive grenades and some sort of improved cover save would be nice, offensive capabilities mustn't be as good as dire avengers.

Plastic upgrade/combi kit for falcon and fire prism is logical.

That's for now, all rather conservative, but well...

Greets
Schepp himself

The problem with the current codex is that each unit has a singular role and sometimes they aren't even very good for that role.

Lets examine Swooping Hawks, they are survivable if you deepstrike and jump back out in the same round. However... their shooting sucks, their grenade is mediocre for the at least 100pts you are spending. In the past you had an exarch that was scary in combat, but the unit was otherwise weak. I miss that still. Now their designated roll is to kill vehicles, and die the next turn... pretty lame actually. One kitted up unit is usually more than most vehicles.

Vipers.... bs3? really... open topped really? points break please?

Warpspiders are alright. But then they weren't nerfed from the previous codex either.

Harlequins, they are fine, god knows why they can't take wave serpents though.

Striking Scorpions, yeah.... decent in combat, slow as hell, give them fleet. If not make them a lot better, show me t4, I know you won't, so give them fleet.

Banshees, they are fine.

Firedragons are fine.

Wraithguard... hmmm damn tough unit, probably leave them just the way they are.

Dire Avengers... they suck great in combat, but cost too much once you give them all the toys, so I'd say reduce the cost of all the abilities, especially and well just the close combat ones, its not like they are that awesome anyways.

Defender guardians, make the weapon platforms twin-linked. Or drop their points to 6 a peice.

Storm Guardians, probably drop their points to 6 a peice.

Jetbike guardians, just fine as is.

Rangers/Pathfinders... really leadership 8? lame should be 9. Why do space marine scouts cost so little and these buggers are 50% more? or 100% more?!

I thinkthe scatter laser and the elm need to be switched in point values and then the star cannon and brightlance need to be drop 5pts in cost.

Vehicles are expensive for the hunk of junks they are. Naked fire prisms are the way to go, everything else... toss it, so drop the price on falcons and serpents a hair.

Everything else is ok. I wonder why you can only take haywire grenades on swooping hawks, i miss that on storm guardians.

3)Have the Autarch make the Eldar stubborn and move the pheonix lords and avatar to Apoc like whats rumored for the C'Tan. This leaves room for the exarchs to inmprove.

i see your point with the avatar, but eldar need a hard hitting monster like this.
where in the hell did you get the idea of moving the phoenix lords from?
they have been about for years, and can make a nice difference in games, but not one that causes an uproar.

things being moved to apoc are usually due to being somewhat stronger than they should be, which is not the case here.

Durandal wrote:
Wraithguard need a close combat upgrade option, such as a force pike, and blast for wraith cannons. 36 points a model is still over priced for what they currently bring to a table. They should be comparable to oblits and terminators, but instead are currently walking fire magnets like ogryn.

I agree. Why not have an assault option? A wraithblade and 2 base attacks at the same points cost would be a welcome addition.

Focused Fire yes haywire grenades are totally needed. I completely forgot about that!

As for the solitaire age he would have to function like a monstrous creature in that he CANNOT join units. as for his stats I seem to have misplaced my 2nd ed eldar codex. But I'll put it this way, in the old rules he had WS 9 BS 9 and he was probably one of the most powerful character sin the whole game and could probably take any single model with the exception of greater daemons. He was an unstoppable killing machine to put it mildly.

I would hire a bunch of strutting louts to swamp them before the battle and stick chewing gun in the works of their weapons so that they will no longer slaughter all of my forces before they get into close combat. I try transports and they get blown up. I try swamping them with masses of troops and they bring multi-lasers and dire avengers. I bring terminators and they bring howling banshees. Who is so incompetent that they can't win with Eldar?

focusedfire wrote:With all of the 2nd ed goodness popping up in 5th, "What will the Eldar Gain/Lose in the next Codex?"

Lately, GW is more unpredictable, so it's a little hard to guess what will happen. I think GW un-nerf Wraithlords somewhat and un-suck Wraithguard, along with repricing their Grav Tanks and Jump Infantry to be a bit more competitive.

Of course, what I *want* is an Eldar Codex that does a better job of integrating Craftworlds.

WRT your suggestions...

1. With the Heavy AGPs getting embiggened, and the WL now being plastic, I don't see WL-carried D-Cannons or such. I do think that WLs wraithsight will become less punitive, but not go away entirely.

2. The Solitaire is a problem model, with equally problematic Fluff. The evolution of the Pariah and Eldar psyker sensitivity Fluff makes it inconceivable that he would be able to hide in plain sight on a Craftworld. I could see him re-imagined as a Harlequin Special Character that you can only take if you take at least 1 unit of Harlequins, but reconciling the old Fluff with the new Fluff is pretty much impossible. I can't imagine where the Teleport ability comes from.

3. The Avatar and Phoenix Lords can stay on in the main Codex - they're just as characterful as the broad cast of named SCs in things like C: SM. The Autarch should do more, but it's a bit hard to say what, as Exarches have similarly large Fluff problems, being Eldar who became trapped in the Path of the Warrior.

4. Base Eldar vehicles and AGPs can be BS4 - it simplifies things by making nearly all shots hit on a 4+, and can be explained by smart weapons systems. But Guardian Infantry can be BS3 for contrast. The deeper problem is why, a dying race, chooses to build their forces around non-expert fighters. Guardian infantry should be exceedingly rare, as a last-ditch kind of thing, but the rules don't do a good job of showing this. Making the Guardian unit 5 to 10 models would help, as would expanding options for non-Avenger Aspects as Troops.

5. Shuricats are OK as 12" or 18" guns, it really doesn't matter that much. 18" is nice, as it shows that they're not Pistols and they're not Storm Bolters. But make them (and all other Shuriken weapons) Piercing with AP1 on a 6 to-hit. More importantly, change the minimum save from a 5+ to a 4+, to reflect how valuable every Eldar is and needs to be protected. I like to see Guardians as non-Scoring Troops that don't take a FOC slot, but still give up a KP when killed.

To be honest, I've shifted focus from Eldar to Guard, and I'm expecting a solid Guard Codex to some out in May, so I'm good for the next few years, I think.

@Warpcrafter-It's not about whether the can still win. It's about the increasingly limited variety of competitive builds.

Also, with whats coming out in the new Codices and the return to so much 2nd ed power its a good time to start speculating about what will be done to bring the Eldar up to 5th ed speed.

@ Sazzelfrats- nice summation, I still want to see an updated crystal targeting matrix that removes coversaves and a rework of farseer/warlock powers(Make conceal add 2 to cover or something)

@Schepp-I like the spiders idea

@Dumplingman-I agree about bringing back the solitaire and thanks for the refresher on her abilities. Do you remember how many attacks she got?

If you made Warpspiders into flamer wielding troops including an exarch with a heavy flamer or a twin-linked flamer, then Swoooping hawks could better fill the role of a unit with high shot, high(er) S, low AP weaponry. At the moment, Swooping hawks are not good against any target, which is a shame because some people really like their style, me not included though. New models, new rules can also work with them.
Imagine the faces of horde players when a gang of 10 Warp spiders unloads their guns. If Horde armies become a viable choice (thank god!) then the Eldar need some answers. Warp spiders and Swooping hawks could be that answer.

Greets
Schepp himself

dumpling man, just a quick summary of the solitare back then:

M 6 - WS - 8 - BS 8 - S 4 - T 4 - W 3 - I 9 - A 3 - LD 10

Cost: 93 points.
Weapons: None.
Armour: Holo-suit.
Wargear: A solitare may have up to 3 wargear cards.

A solitare may be given additional equipment chosen from the armour, assult weapons, special weapons and grendaes section of the wargear list.

The problem isn't thier codex is 5th edition. I would wait for 6th edition and play other systems.

Everyone jokes about 6th ed. I honestly am starting to believe there will never be such a thing. Ever.

I'm starting to get the feeling that 40Ks 25 anniversary will be its swan song as 50K is introduced to celebrate the milestone.

GW will finish its commitment to update the remaining codices(probably not but one can hope)to keep its customer base happy(maintain cashflow) as they get everyone accustomed to the new system and ramp up production on new armies.

JD21290 thanks for the stat clarification it has been a long time. I just have bad memories of a 12 model harlequinn army beating everything else in the game.

Does anyone think move shoot move (The old crystal targeting matrix) will return in a limited form. Like for a total 12" move that is made in a max of 6" increments?

BUMP^

Dang it Focusedfire, I did not see your thread before starting mine.


I was thinking since the Eldar is supposed to be an army of specialist, each aspect should incredible in their job. I would suggest the following changes in the next codex:

Dire Avengers: Same

Banshees: WS 5 base, WS 6 for Exarch

Fire Dragons: Same

Striking Scorpions: WS 5 base, WS 6 Exarch

Shining Spears: CC weapon (for 2 attacks), WS 5 base, WS 6 Exarch

Swooping Hawks: Las Blaster is assault 3

Warp Spiders: Str 6 AP ~ Template Weapons.

Dark Reapers: BS 5, BS 6 for Exarch

I would also drop the points for Starcannons and Bright Lances by 5 points each because of how common cover is now. I have no idea how to point out the new aspect warriors, but such changes would help the Eldar to retain being soem of the most skilled warriors in the universe.

More than anything i would like to see each of the Phoenix Lords stay in normal games, and for them to allow their aspect to count as scoring troops. C:SM get all kinds of fun special characters to define to "flavor" of their army and to take one of the major Flufy bits out of normal games from Eldar would be crule punishment. How fun would it be to run an Howling Banshee army, or to strike Fear when they see squads of Fire Dragons pile out of Wave Serpents and then laugh when you tell them that they are scoring. The Phoenix Lords added a Flavor to Eldar Armies before and lets face it, Eldar only really have the Guardian Jet bike and Dire Avengers as good all round scoring troops. Guardians die too quickly and rangers are only good then the Objective is in cover, and if you have to move them to it hope you have a transport or they can stay in cover the whole way else there toast. The Phoenix Lords could push the Eldar away from the Mech Eldar phase and allow for more diverse competitive lists to be fielded.

The Phoenix Lord army works until you consider a Dark Reaper army...
____

@adeptsister: I see you made a new topic for your specialist Eldar. My reply is here.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The Phoenix Lord army works until you consider a Dark Reaper army...

Or a Swooping hawk army that does nothing but bounce every turn, distributing pieplates like they're going out of fashion, then nicking all the objectives on the last turn.

@Focusedfire: Me and a friend used to field a harlequin army back during 2nd edition. 30 'quins and a greater harlequin; almost impossible to shoot, unbeatable in cc and, icing on the cake, gave up a max of 6 victory points. Very, very broken. Oh how we laughed

Well, those good old days are gonna have to make a bit of a comeback. Thats if the Eldar are going to remain playable in 5th ed as the new codices come out.

Another change I'd make is that the avatar gives units with Los to it the furious assault rule as well as making them stubborn.

Since every other army is getting to ignore vehicle shooting restrictions, Eldar skimmers should move 24 and be able to fire all weapons and disembark.

Instead of the moving so far and shoot. I'd like for them to move that far and disembark troops that still shoot, run, or assault but only one of these.


Edited for corrected sentence

All-bouncing Hawks simply wouldn't be fun to play against, so I can't see it.

What would be good to see.

Look for the swooping hawk weapons to surpass the new IG stormtrooper hellguns. The Eldar Tech is supposed to be lightyears ahead of the imperium.
The gun would have the same Strength and AP but greater range or become assault 2 range 18". I'd like to see an option for the Eldar better version of combat tactics.

Fire dragons will probably get the ability to split their fire or at some point during the game split the squad.

Eldar vehicles should get higher rates of fire and the banshees need a transport that they can assault out of.


Just a few quick ideas

New thought. Why don't the Eldar have an aspect warrior that focuses on mechanized combat? They have a craftworld but not a warrior shrine to a very important aspect of war.

Got to thinking about this when everyone said that bs 3 is good for guardians because they're citizens not warriors(I disagree with this thought very much as the Eldar are a warrior race and almost all follow the path of the warrior at some point or another).

If they aren't regular warriors then why are they always piloting the vehicles and thus making the falcon, War Walkers, and Vypers all bs 3. You pilot and gun a tank for a thousand years your gonna be better than some 40 year human vet.

So in the next codex I think the Eldar should either get a BS increase or the should get a Mech combat aspect.

I'd make the Avatar:

WS:10 BS:8 S:8 T:8 W:4 I:8 A:6 LD:10 Sv: 3+/4+

Weapons: Wailing Doom

Special Rules:
Fearless, Inspiring (allied Eldar get Fearless), Monstrous Creature, Daemon (gives a 4+ invul)

Molten Body: Is immune to all flamer and melta weapons. At the end of every turn, any model within 1" takes a Str 4 Ap- hit.

Wailing Doom: Has two ranged attacks, have to declare which one you're using:

1. R12", Str 8 Ap1, Melta 2. R:Template, Str 5 Ap4

It's supposed to be like, a fragment of a god of war, not a wussy. Of course this may actually be better suited for Apocalypse as it'd be around 400 points I'm assuming.

I would suggest nerfing eldar skimmers. At the moment they are too survivable. I played 2 games at the GT vs mech eldar on objective games, and on turn 5 and 6, when ever the game carried on till, the eldar player moved his two fire prisms 24 inches onto my objective with holofields, and was flying his 3 wave serpents around his. In a game where you can have only 2 or 3 objectives, having 3 holofield tanks is stupid. Also wave serpents need to lose the living metal rule they have, or go up in points. They are ridiculous if you compare them to say a Chimera or rhino in terms of survivability.

Hmm...

1. Swooping Hawks. Love the models, the concept, etc. Ever been disappointed with the actual result in terms of rules. They are a sort of bounce-shoot unit, but without the shooty to make it worth while. Better AP on the weapon? More shots? Better Grenade pack effect, multiple Large Templates based on the size of the unit?


2. Guardians. Something just strikes me as wrong about a long-lived race not having a slightly better showing in shooting or cc. The Defenders always feel like scrubs in shooting, and Storms are flailing in the wind. They always seem like they are very very weak without Aspect Warriors backing them up. Not a 'bad' thing per se, but perhaps a special rule being close to a given Aspect Unit that boosts their own stats? A one-time boost to BS/WS (once per game) when within 6" of an appropriate Aspect Unit, Reapers/DA's give BS, Scorpions/Banshees give WS, for those affected Guardians? So you can't necessarily give each unit individually the boost or any of that. Granted, Dire Avengers boosting a Storm Guardian Squad isn't necessarily ideal, but depending on the situation, could be quite good, and vice versa for Guardian Defenders with Banshees right next to them. Not sure what Warp Spiders, Shining Spears, or Swooping Hawks would give... SS's WS, Swooping Hawks BS, and Warp Spiders both or neither.

Eldar has long been a finesse army, and that shouldn't change. Most of the units aren't bad, and do what they do very very well, and are not particularly good at adapting to other roles on the field. Everything else in the army list is, for the most part, pretty decent. It's just getting X to where it needs to be, when it needs to be there, without fail.

@ Mad Larkin,

A 140 pt wave serpent vs the new 55 pt chimera is enough of a nerf.

Your complaining that a 140 pt Wave serp is superior to a 35 pt rhino(50pts kitted out). Edit out jibe in poor taste.

The 115 pt Prisms naked, 160 with holofield and Spirit stones w/front armour 12 vs vindicators under a hundred points.

Eldar skimmers were sick in 4th ed and their previous codex.
The new rule book nerfed them bigtime and upped other tanks to almost the same survivabilty for only 2/3 of the cost.

So just because some very talented players won a GT with the Eldar doesn't mean its time to "Nerf the Eldar".
It means that its time to re-examine your build and your tactics.
You lost to Mechdar. What ended up winning the GT? I heard it wasn't a mech based Eldar but haven't seen the winning lists as of yet. How close was the lists that you lost to compared with the GT winners lists?

Bring us that info and we have a foundation for a discussion.

@ Cmagee79,

How about the Swooping Hawks grenade packs made into buyable upgrades that can number up to 3-4 in a squad and follow barrage rules.

Also make their rifle equal to or better than the new hellgun. It's what it was before and the IG Storm troopers and Hawks have very similar missions and uses.

focusedfire wrote:swooping hawk weapons to surpass the new IG stormtrooper hellguns. The gun would have the same Strength and AP but greater range or become assault 2 range

Fire dragons will probably get the ability to split their fire or at some point during the game split the squad.

Eldar vehicles should get higher rates of fire

banshees need a transport that they can assault out of.

Why don't the Eldar have an aspect warrior that focuses on mechanized combat?

If they aren't regular warriors then why are they always piloting the vehicles and thus making the falcon, War Walkers, and Vypers all bs 3.

The Hawk Lasblaster is already R24" S3 (AP5) A2. The problem is that their S3 simply isn't useful, especially with 4+ cover saves handed out like candy. I'd suggest R24" S4 AP- AP2 as the new Lasblaster.

Fire Dragons don't need to split fire or split unit. What they need is to be better differentiated against Dire Avengers by having more than just a better gun. I suggest Sv3+ and a S5 AP1 gun that always rolls 2d6 against armor, rather than carrying Meltas which are a bit too much.

Eldar vehicles should have a Spirit Stone that fires an additional weapon at BS3, similar to Lumbering Behemoth and Machine Spirit.

Actually, this should be inherent to the "lighter" Aspects - Dire Avengers and Banshees should both be able to Assault out of Transports.

Ordinary Guardians can be BS3, as they're just guys who jumped into the armor. The problem with Guardians is Sv5+, when Eldar should be giving them better armor with Sv4+ (dying race and all).

Eldar don't need a mechanized Aspect, as this would then tie them to a single vehicle that they mater. That said, War Walkers would be a decent unit to have an Aspect pilot - WS4 BS4 I4 War Walkers would be kind of cool, especially if they could be fitted with DNCCWs in lieu of guns...

Eldar vehicles (and AGPs) should simply have Targeters that make them base BS4.
____

Mad Larkin Uk wrote:I would suggest nerfing eldar skimmers. At the moment they are too survivable.

They are ridiculous if you compare them to say a Chimera or rhino in terms of survivability.

Eldar skimmers are fine - they're the most expensive Transports in the game!

A Chimera is going to be 55 pts. A Rhino is now 35 pts. A Wave Serpent still costs well over 100 pts. At 2x or 3x the cost, Eldar skimmers are highly overcosted.
____

cmagee79 wrote:1. Swooping Hawks. Better AP on the weapon? More shots? Better Grenade pack effect, multiple Large Templates based on the size of the unit?

2. Guardians. perhaps a special rule being close to a given Aspect Unit that boosts their own stats? A

Eldar has long been a finesse army, and that shouldn't change.

1. Hawks don't need a better pack effect - as it is, it's too good to yo-yo Hawks. AP and shots are fine, which is why I like S4 AP-.

2. Boosting seems wierd, and is unprecedented. I think Guardians should go down in points, and be a better mobile infantry-based fire support unit.

Actually, it should change back to being even *more* of a finesse army. The Eldar Troops are messed up, as there isn't enough option for Aspect Troops (like CSM, etc.)

So, what your essentially asking for is the return of the Craftworld codex.

If so, I agree. It'd be really nice to have Strking Scorps or banshees as scoring units.

Now as to what I think we'll see.
I think that we will see a new improved version of the Jetbikes.
Possibly, Either an open-topped transport or the ability to beam/teleport into close combat at the cost of shooting that turn.
The Pheonix Lords Will definitely get a rework.
Eldar vehicles will get upgrades with the same names but different abilities:
Crystal Targeting Mtrix- Now allows the vehicle to split its fire, or fire all offensive if moved over 6" and up to 12", and/or reduces cover by 1.
Spirit Stones- will be the same
Vectored and star engines are still the same but if you take both, then you can drop troops after moving 12" and move another 12 after. That turns shooting was sacrificed.

These are just a few ideas

More or less. As a skittles Biel-Tan player, the current Codex doesn't do anything for me.

IMO...
- sexy new Jetbike models with utterly crap rules - the Possessed / Stormies of the Eldar.

- Teleport unlikely, except Ulthwe gate; and OT Transport is DE, not CWE.

- CTM should be the name for extra shot per turn.

focusedfire wrote:@ Cmagee79,

How about the Swooping Hawks grenade packs made into buyable upgrades that can number up to 3-4 in a squad and follow barrage rules.

Also make their rifle equal to or better than the new hellgun. It's what it was before and the IG Storm troopers and Hawks have very similar missions and uses.

I'm not so sure about buyable Grenade packs. I was thinking more of a 'For every Five models in your unit, drop one large template on the target unit' kind of thing.

Now insofar as improving the Lasblaster... I'm torn. I don't want it to be some sort of over-charged beast of a gun, but at the same time, it certainly could do with a bit of tweaking. It's not a 'bad' unit by any measure, but compared to the other options, I just look at it and think 'Hmmmmmmmmnope' and shift my attention. Warp Spiders are all of a single point difference per model, and are a helluva lot more appealing even with the much shorter range. Shining Spears are pretty beastly now, for half again as many points. Hell, even a full Vyper Squadron has more appeal than the Swooping Hawks. The only somewhat interesting ability they have of being able to Skyleap away only to Deep Strike again a moment later, but all that means to me is having a unit potentially being able to drop back in using Reserves rules (I'd prefer automatically returning on next movement phase, but whatevs) and 'possibly' contesting an objective or denying the enemy one (1) KP.

They're not a killy mcshooty unit, have some interesting tidbits, but for the cost and the range of alternatives, I'm simply not sold.

3 Words: Crystal Targeting Matrix

Here is a sick idea. Jetbike banshees or harlequins.

What I'm seeing is that each army coming out is becoming even more clearly an arch-type of a certain style of warfare.

With the Eldar, their speed is their greatest asset. I see the army getting faster and it gives the excuse to give them better armour saves without becoming too Tau-like.

What would the stats and cost of a Jetbike Avatar or Jetbike Wraithlord be?

Not seriously suggesting them as new options. Just have the extra models to attempt a Vyper/jetbike mount conversion of each and wondered what their rules would be like.

The problem with the eldar in my mind are just a few:

1. Guardians overpriced or under ranged. R12" catapults are a deathwish and 8 point ablative casualties for 1 heavy weapon system is overpriced.
2. All the aspect warrior CC specialists just don't hold any water to other army's elite CC options. Alot of this is the eldar bane of T3 but I would argue for either increased WS or +1 Attack to the base value. Scorpions are just survivable but I can do equivalent effects with a cheaper Dire Avenger unit. Banshees suck except for the 1 in 12 assaults where war shout comes into play. Harlequins not really that impressive but they do provide some survivablity the other two do not.

3. Vypers - please make them 2 w attack bikes instead of open-topped landspeeders that cost more for a lower BS unit.
4. Discount Falcons... under 5th ed I MUST purchase a secondary weapon if I use the mobility I am paying for I can't ever fire it.
5. With the reductions in skimmer survivability and the decrease in cost of rhinos and chimeras, don't tell me 6" of movement and some funky 12+ AV makes a wave serpent worth almost 3 rhinos or 2 chimeras.

I was just reading the Eldar weak troops/scoring units and found a post by durandal.

The post does an amazing job of defining the major issues facing the Eldar. Some of it is stuff already covered and some were enlightening.

The already covered part was about how each new codex is slowly outdating the Eldar through a steady line of lowered prices for transports and troops in these latest codices.

The part I found enlightening was where he pointed out that the new mission orientation towards objectives works against the Eldar in a fundamental way.

He observed that the eldar, as much as any other army and maybe more so, counts upon the support from other units. But now with the objectives so far apart or being so many it forces the limited Eldar force to split up to the point where the troops with their 12" guns have trouble supporting one another.

That the Elites have to cover so much ground in these missions that transports are almost madatory. The need to use the very expensive transports cuts down on the overall army size/strength and effectively increaqses the work load of the remaining units.

This poses the question of how do the Eldar regain their speed advantage in the run/objective 5thed world?

Give them a better version of fleet that allows them to shoot after running.

Make their skimmer tanks faster, and able to disembark troops after moving up to 24" (I'd say 18, but the new guard codex is giving precedent for very OTT stuff...) let them fire all of their weapons as stationary no matter how far they move, let them assault out of transports as long as they don't move say... over 12".

Basically, give them some of the mobility advantages that other races have and eldar don't. For being billed as the "most mobile" army they sure are lacking a lot that other races are being given.

For those who say "OMG that's overpowered!" look at the design trends for all of the recent codices (Orks+). Every new codex has units that are extremely over-the-top... so why shouldn't Eldar have the same?

@Willydstyle

What about Eldar-Fleet allowing either a run and shoot, or run and assault? One or the other?

Or perhaps Move-Shoot-Run akin to Tau jet-packs but on a D6" rather than guaranteed 6"?

The falcon/wave serpent just don't have the look/feel of the valkyrie, allowing them to disembark along the path of movement. I'd be happy with an 'assault' transport akin to the old Harlequin codex Vypers (only 6, but better than nothing). Flimsy, fast, but effective.

I'd hardly call the Eldar anything less than mobile. However that mobility comes at a cost and is decidedly less adaptive and holds less utility than, say, Space Marines.

cmagee79 I like the idea of choosing shooting or assaulting if you use the "eldar pansy dance" as I will now refer to this proposed rule.

farseer powers that happen at the begining of the turn such as fortune guide and doom are done instead of movement or make the powers usable in the shooting phase.

Done instead of movement? That would be horrible... but in the shooting phase would be a huge buff... so which one do you want, farseers to be nerfed or buffed?

Power should stay in Shooting (beginning of shooting mind you).

Insofar as Eldar Pansy Dance, leave it up to any eldar unit with a 4+ armor save or worse, with 3+ armor save relegated to regular old Fleet and that's mainly to give Scorpions a lil extra oomph, and banshees could give a damn. Jetbikes would not gain this happy dance.

And, of course, I love me some hypothetical Vyper-Assault-Dealie transport.

I, instead of improving their physical speed, think its time to see a new unique Eldar only item/rule.

I have mixed feelings about army wide special rules but it does seem to be the trend and the eldar will are going to need something like that in the near future.


The new unique item I'm thinking of are Webway gates that can materialize anywhere on the board but no closer than 18" to an objective(unless maybe they are the objective?). There can always be at least two gates per eldar army but can be equal to the number of objectives.

I know this is DOW-ish but I feel that it does make sense. I would limit it by making them pay for these gates and limiting the number of squads to 2-3 per turn able to teleport. It would be like disembarking and embarking from transports in that if the base of the gate is surrounded then no units may exit from that particular gate.

Still working on what would be balanced as to unit limitations. Infantry only? Jetbikes allowed or not? Does unit have to be within certain distance toteleport and if so then what distance?


What do you think?

I think all the Eldar skimmers should deep strike. All the imperial skimmers do after all. I really wonder how the impies went from having very limited numbers of skimmers to having better skimmers than the eldar?

I wouldn't say better. At most they are equivalent. The new IG skimmers are larger and don't benefit from some of the wargear but do have some useful abilities.

You can call it deepstriking or as I prefer teleporting, but being able to do so out of the back of a fast moving moving skimmer is a nice trick. I think tweek the rule to where a unit depolyed in such manner may either shoot, run, or assault. But only one of these.

I'd rather leave deepstriking vehicles to the imperium and give the Eldar skimmers the ability to come on from any board edge to represent Web gate technology.

Guardian option 1: AC 4+ Catapult 18" Rapid Fire 6 pt cost.

All eldar can fleet. (If Shrike led terminators can so should all eldar.)

+1 WS -1 BS to Scorpions and Banshees

-1 WS +1 BS to Reapers and Hawks

Same for Avengers and Spiders.

All Eldar vehicles BS 4.

Eldar defensive weapons back to S6
Vypers moved to 2W T4 jetbike rules.
Falcons moved from Heavy to optional dedicated transport.

Serpents and Falcons discounted at least 20 pts.

Lower costs of Holofield. (It is inferior to Tau 5pt mod yet costs 35 pts???)

Built in night vision for all vehicles. (Sick of eldar being the only blind vehicles in a night fight.)

@DAddict: The above sounds generally reasonable, so no chance in hell that GW does any of it.

BTW, I'd say this:

All Eldar can Fleet, but "light" units (e.g. Guardians, Harlies, Banshees, Hawks) take the best of 2d6 for the Fleet distance.

Also, Vypers should be AV10 count as "closed".

Otherwise, all good.

@ DAddict-I like the direction you are going but would tweek some things just a little, IMHO.

1)Absolutely agree on all shuricats being range 18" and assault 2. Disagree on the 4+sv. It would make them Tau but with fleet and decent initiative for 25% less the price. It's too good.
I'd rather that the warlock conceal ability gets changed to just +2 to cover up to max 2+ coversave. I'd also like the warlocks to gain the ability to buy spirit stones so that they could possibly use two powers a turn.

2)I'm still in the camp that even reserve units are gonna have BS4 WS4 after living for a thousand years. Applying that new base stat to your proposed new Aspect stats would make the HTH units +1WS and the shooting +1 BS and +1 Initiative. Make the exarchs have increased physical stats +1S & +1T as well as +2 to their BS or WS modifier.

3)Eldar vehicle BS4, Agreed

4)With shuricats range 18" the defensive weapon boost is a little too powerful. Instead, Falcon rule that the turret counts as one weapon firing.

Absolutely agree about the Vypers.

Again absolutely agree about the Falcon.

5) 20pts is a bit much of a price drop. 10 points would be more in line with what is being seen in the new codices.

6)Yes, the holo fields need a small points drop but don't judge against the Tau. It's a hold over piece from 4th that just happen to quadruple in value for fifth. Every reasonable Tau player I know is expecting the Dis Pod to jump to at least 15-20 points, "If" we even get to keep it without it being nerfed in the next codex.

I see the holofields coming in at around 20pts. Just my opinion.

7)I agree about the night fighting. I've got this feeling that the eldar are going to get a 35-40-ish point upgrade/option called by an old name but with new rules.

It's the Crystal Targeting Matrix. I see it coming back with rules that grant night vision and removes cover with some kind of balancing modifier. Maybe it even lets the eldar move up to 18" and fire one main weapon.

On the subject of Eldar vehicle upgrades, I could see an across the board 5pt drop do to how 5th ed nerfed the abilities.


To your proposed changes I'd like to add that the Wraithguard need to drop by about 5pts per model.

What do you think?



Edit for spacing

I think it has been mentioned on another thread but, i would love to see taking a phoenix lord let you take their aspect as troops. Dragon, Banshee army anyone?

J.Black wrote:I think it has been mentioned on another thread but, i would love to see taking a phoenix lord let you take their aspect as troops. Dragon, Banshee army anyone?

I would rather that they could be bought instead of an exarch for 1 squad. I personally would find it annoying to play an army of 30 Fire Dragons or 30 Scorp's.

J.Black wrote:I think it has been mentioned on another thread but, i would love to see taking a phoenix lord let you take their aspect as troops. Dragon, Banshee army anyone?

I will take Maugen Ra every game, with 2 max units of Reapers to anchor my DZ. As replacements for Rangers/Pathfinders, they are completely worth the points increase.
____

focusedfire wrote:Disagree on the 4+sv. It would make them Tau but with fleet and decent initiative

To your proposed changes I'd like to add that the Wraithguard need to drop by about 5pts per model.

Guardians moving to Sv4+ is fine. Eldar still have adequate R18" S4 guns instead of kick-ass R30" S5 guns, so Tau gunnery *is* better.

Wraithguard could drop more than that. The real problem is that there are too many ordinary Aspects in Elites that should simply move to Troops a la CSM. If Eldar Elites are the non-Craftworlder auxiliaries (Harlies, Wraithguard, Rangers, & Wraithlords), it's no problem.

Statwise, how about this:

WS4 BS4 Guardians

WS4 BS5 Dragons, Reapers, Spiders, Hawks (BS6 Exarchs)
WS5 BS4 Avengers, Banshees, Scorpions, Spears (WS6 Exarchs)

WS6 BS6 Autarch

JohnHwangDD wrote:Guardians moving to Sv4+ is fine. Eldar still have adequate R18" S4 guns instead of kick-ass R30" S5 guns, so Tau gunnery *is* better.

Wraithguard could drop more than that. The real problem is that there are too many ordinary Aspects in Elites that should simply move to Troops a la CSM. If Eldar Elites are the non-Craftworlder auxiliaries (Harlies, Wraithguard, Rangers, & Wraithlords), it's no problem.

Statwise, how about this:

WS4 BS4 Guardians

WS4 BS5 Dragons, Reapers, Spiders, Hawks (BS6 Exarchs)
WS5 BS4 Avengers, Banshees, Scorpions, Spears (WS6 Exarchs)

WS6 BS6 Autarch

I'll still disagree on the base armor save of the guardians. I'd like for there to be a reason for the guardians to take the warlocks.

The stats are dead on though. Only thing I'd add is that Exarchs and Autarchs should have S4 T4 to represent the benefits of following the Eldar warrior path for so long.


I also like the Idea of taking the Pheonix lords out of the already to busy HQ slot and make them like an advisor. You take one and they with his/her retinue count as a troop choice if you want. The restriction would be that no more than 2 such advisor/special characters may be taken in a game unless it is an Apoc game.


How does that sound?

TBH, I really could care less about the PLs, as I'd rather focus on the core list to enable skittles Biel-Tan.

I never needed PLs to kick ass before, so I don't foresee needing them if the Codex works right.

Unfortunately, GW seems to be taking a different tack, and I find that to be irritating.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Statwise, how about this:

WS4 BS4 Guardians

WS4 BS5 Dragons, Reapers, Spiders, Hawks (BS6 Exarchs)
WS5 BS4 Avengers, Banshees, Scorpions, Spears (WS6 Exarchs)

WS6 BS6 Autarch

On a d6 system making eldar exarchs BS6 is pushing crazy talk...unless their points increased to compensate, or squad size shrinks (but they are fairly small squads already). Eldar need a points rework in the other direction. I'm up for new rules/units genral points redux but an army that gets to reroll failed to hits all the time...different story.

Um, IIRC, BS6 misses 1/12 (2+, 4+) instead of 1/6.

BS10 is 1/36 (2+, 2+).

BS6 has almost no in-game impact over BS5, but feels cooler in the same way that WS6 is better than WS5.

Yes, there's some effect, but not much.

Actually BS 6 means that you hit on a 6+ on the reroll, so it's just a little bit better.

I'm also of the opinion that the aspect warriors' stats are fine how they are now, and they maybe need an adjustment in points or maybe special rules. The thing is, that they are already much, much better at their given role than a space marine is, for only a slight increase in points value.

It's when you compare them to orks that they fall short... but you can say the same of almost any unit from any other codex.

If you must improve Aspect Warriors...

The easiest way imo to improve the CC aspect warriors is to bump up their number of attacks. They already have high I so they will strike first, they just should have their base attacks increased from 1 to 2. That way they have a chance to do more damage to hords and gives the illusion that they are better skilled (ala more attacks) then you SM.

As for the shooting aspect warriors i would suggest giving them all targeters so they can mesure and then choose their target.

Then again I beleive just being able to have more of them (via points drop) would solve most of thier issues without the stat changes.

Personally, here were my stats for Autarchs:

WS:7 BS:7 S:3 T:3(4) W:3 I:7 A:3 LD:10 SV:3+

And then Phoenix Lords go to:

WS:8 BS:8 S:4 T:4 I:8 A:4 LD:10 SV:2+/5++

And then the Avatar would be:

WS:10 BS:8 S:7 T:7 W:4 I:8 A:4 LD:10 SV:3+/4++

In my opinion, all shooty Exarchs and Aspects should get -1WS and +1BS (Like Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, etc. with respective points increase) and fighty Exarchs and Aspects should get +1WS and -1BS (Like Banshees, Striking Scorpions, etc. with point cost increases to match)

How about nerfing the Shuri Cannons to S4 AP 5 but giving them a ROF of 6. That way for a low price Falcons can have a defensive weapon that can shoot with the Pulsar. Kind of a LR Crusader.

M.

I feel like the Eldar have been nerfed enough. It's cool idea but not the directing that I'd hope GW takes.

To me, it makes more sense to classify the whole turret as a single weapon. It's not like it gets to split its fire. The second weapon fires at the same target as the pulse laser. I think that with bumping all shuricats to 18" range would fix the Falcon nicely.

The only other thing I'd change is to make it a tranport option for farseer and retinue. Maybe also for a Pheonix Lords and small scoring retinue of his aspect.

focusedfire wrote:

To me, it makes more sense to classify the whole turret as a single weapon. It's not like it gets to split its fire. The second weapon fires at the same target as the pulse laser. I think that with bumping all shuricats to 18" range would fix the Falcon nicely.

I agree with this.

Also, I think JHDD suggested this, but perhaps on a to-wound roll of 6, the shot counts as AP2?

So for example, a Shuriken Catapult would be:

So R18" Str 4 Ap 4 Assault 2, Shuriken*

Shuriken-Any 'To-Wound' rolls of 6 count as AP2

This would extend to Shuriken Cannons and Shuriken Pistols, and any other Shuriken weapons I may have missed in my stupor.

Anyone have any opinions on the stat bumps I suggested?

@Vlad-In general I like these ideas. In specific there are some I would tone down just a point here or there.

I really like the Avatar stat-line. I think the Pheonix Lords could drop their non aspect oriented stats to 6. But all in all It'd be fun to playtest.

other then whats already been mentioned

I would like it if, Wraithlords could take wraithguards, in the same way a Hive Tyrant can take tyrant guards (oh and a warlock so they don't all stand there)

I would also like it if vypers were jetbikes and could be joind to jebike squads (like SM attack bikes)

Wraithlords taking Wraithguard probably doesn't really do anything for the unit, as their roles and capabilities are too different.

I would like to see a modified version of the old Iyanden Craftworld rule return. The one that says for every wraithguard unit taken as a troop you can take an additional wraithlord as a troop also.

That would be too powerful but if modified to something like this.

For every guardian squad taken as a troop selection a 6-10 man wraithguard squad may also be taken as a toops choice. Additionally, for every Wraithguard taken as a troop selection the Army may take an additional Wraithlord even if it exceeds the FOC limits.

Next Idea-

All eldar vehicles are BS4.

Fast Eldar vehicles moving over 12"-18" may fire one weapon system at BS3 or two systems at BS2. At movement of over 6"-12" the vehicle may fire any two weapon system at BS4. 0"-6" The vehicle may fire all of its weapon systems.

focusedfire wrote:Next Idea-

All eldar vehicles are BS4.

Fast Eldar vehicles moving over 12"-18" may fire one weapon system at BS3 or two systems at BS2. At movement of over 6"-12" the vehicle may fire any two weapon system at BS4. 0"-6" The vehicle may fire all of its weapon systems.

...i like that but would like to add that Guardian Deffenders may also fire their Heavy Weapon Platform from with in the skimmer, the platform floats along side the Wave Serpent (this also explains why it doesn't take up any transport space). Whether it should be consider fired by the tank or the Guardian inside I'm not sure.

KISS - Eldar vehicles (and AGPs) are BS4.

Here's my take on the Eldar dex needs:

(1) No more powers based on a model, it should be a squad upgrade, ALL exarch and warlock squad powers should just be squad upgrades

(2) Pheonix Lords, if Taken, make their respective aspect score, and count as troops

(3) Remove Pheonix Lord snobbery, they should be able to join any Eldar unit, come on, you can have Vulkan Hestan and Shrike in the same army, but Maugan Rah won't even join a unit of Avengers? Absurd.

(4) Do something about Eldar skimmers: suggest: Spirit stone = Machine Spirit

(5) Guardians need to come in hosts of 1-3 in 1 troop slot (platoons)

(6) Warithguard need at least 18 inch range

(7) Assault style Eldar Aspect warriors need the grenades back, (how did Firedragons and Hawks steal all the Meltabombs and Haywire Grenades from the Scorpions and Banshees?)

(8) Fix Eldar artillery, Vibrocannon needs to be unlimited range, Dcannon at least 36 and spinner 60

(9) Wraithlord should get 2 weapons, not twin linked

Thank you for the input ,Augustus. As usual, it is concise and well thought out.

Items 1 and 3, I might want to fiddle with a bit but the rest are dead on.

This is a good starting place. Are there any other ideas that you've read or like? Seems to be a re-occuring sentiment amongst other threads that the Eldar Skimmers need a fair bit of adjusting.

The other complaint I'm hearing is a lot about the loss of relative speed in 5th ed.What would you suggest to correct this if anything?

Also,How do you feel about giving the Wraithlords the D-cannon?

PLEASE some sort of eldar assaulting vehicle with multiple hatches

move aspect squad max size up 12

move guardian squad minimum size to 8

vehicle between falcon and vyper in terms of size as a single fast attack option

Augustus ...(8) Fix Eldar artillery, Vibrocannon needs to be unlimited range, Dcannon at least 36 and spinner 60

...... i don't think thats the problem with them ... the problem is they can't move ... make them move and shoot and they become more usefull (maybe they scatter an extra d6/2d6 if you move) also it would be nice if you could take say upto 20 more guardians so they don't just get shoot off the board

All eldar can make a 6" move in the assault phase, even if not making an assault move. this includes tanks.

General sweeping change that upgrades the whole amy, speeding everything up, making everything sneakier, and can be done without changing points, imo.

would make the vyper and falcon worth their points, better protect guardians, etc.

jetbikes already get this. spiders would need a change, maybe D6+6" move, on a one, a model dies.

Alternatively:

I like the idea of template spiders - there isnt a template weapon aspect yet - seeing spiders make units move as in difficult terrain would be good, or one less dice if actually in terrain. maybe S4 AP- template, unit counts as in dangerous terrain next turn.

very schneaky.

guardian defenders can take up to 3 platforms.

support weapons on wraithlords and falcon chassis

differentiated combat wraithlord and support wraithlord/guard

18" range on wraithcannons

conceal adds +1 to cover save if already in cover

Maybe GW is listening about the Serpents and will redesign to allow for move/assault. I think it more likely that the Serps will get some move, deploy, move and the troops disembarking from said moving transport will get the option to run, shoot, or assault in the same turn that they disembarked.

These options will be able to apply to a vehicle whose total movement doesn't exceed 18".

I would make Shuriken weapons penetrate vehicles on 4+.

I would also remove Shuriken weapons. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, NINJAS OR SOMETHIN

Transport Move/Unload/Assault. Couple of ways to handle it:

1. Aspect Warrior Ability: (Like have Acrobatics allow Banshees to disembark and assault on the same turn.)

2. Add to a Vehicle Upgrade (Like CTM or perhaps Vectored Engines)

3. Inate ability to vehicles. (Then nix my former comments about lowering their costs.)

Make the citizen soldiers only cost 6 and upgrade their catapults to rapid fire 18" ... gives them the range they need to survive and actually shoot in 5th ed but leaves them definitely below Dire Avengers.

Lower the cost of the vehicles... (as every other later codex has...) If we take a rhino to be 35 pts and a truck to be 35 pts... what makes a wave serpent 55 points more? Basically same capacity range with more armor by 1 than a rhino and fast or by 2 and not open topped like a truck. I would propose they should be about 70 points without any mods instead of 90.

Now look at a falcon... 115 for capacity of 6 and one pulse laser the rest is paid for. The pulse laser is not good AT in 5th edition and basically half capacity of a serpent. Compare to razorback with TL Lascannon for 75 pts and same capacity... I would say the Falcons +1 armor and speed should be worth no more than 20 pts so clock in a falcon for 90 without options. As I suggested earlier, make a falcon a dedicated transport option rather than a heavy choice.

Wraithlord: Let wraithsword qualify for an extra attack.

DAaddict wrote:Make the citizen soldiers only cost 6 and upgrade their catapults to rapid fire 18" ... gives them the range they need to survive and actually shoot in 5th ed but leaves them definitely below Dire Avengers.

Rapid Fire 18" range is more useless than Assault 2 12" range, because if you're standing still to try to fire one shot at 18, you could have moved forward to fire two shots at 12".

Shoota boyz have the same gun as a Dire Avenger. This is a travesty of game balance. The DAs should have assault 2 24" shuriken catapults (which would give them effectively 2nd ed shuricats), and guardians should have assault 2 18" cats.

i would rather have 12'' assault 2 than 18'' rapid fire any day

Give Guardians same as dire avengers. Assault 2 range 18"

Make all shuriken weapons rending.

I accept that Rapid Fire is by far not good but I am questioning giving them Assault 18" ROF 2 exactly like DAs. ROF 1 would let them shoot but combined with some of the other options, we are ending up with Guardian defenders being almost the equal of Dire Avengers.

I can accept both having 18" range and then same stat lines as today so Guardians are not as accurate nor very survivable with AC 5.

I think the big question in the whole thing is where GW puts the costs... The 6 pt Ork boy is just impossible to match up to with any eldar. Not saying they can't be beat but in a troop oriented game, 30 orks are close to the equivalent of 10 Dire Avengers tricked out. This is a no win.

Guardians have to be improved to make them playable. They have to get a price reduction on par with Orks and Guard.

The question that needs attention... What should the shuiken catapult's rate of fire look like? The 12" range is miserable, but going up to 18" would make it same as the avenger catapult. Would 3 shots at 12" be acceptable? Would Avenger catapult be broken at range 24" assault 2?

Dire Avengers and guardians need to have different weapons to make them different units. No reasons to have redundancy amongst the troop choices.

Give the Guardians the 18" range with the Assault 2 shuricats.

With the dire avengers BS and armour save both being 1 pt better there is enough of a difference that its not problematic. If it's still a prob then give them haywire grenades.

Give the storm Guardians double barrled shuripistols that are range 12 with a pistol 2 profile.

How would that work?

I agree with the much needed BS4 on vehicles
( really need it! )

How about letting Assault-weapon carrying Eldar use Fleet and still be able to fire their weapons? It would certainly add to their mobility.

4 BS on vehicles

option for CC weapons on jetbikes

new assault skimmer transport for units like banshees/scorpions/harlies

lower guardian point cost by 1

raise max aspect squads to 12 (keep shining spears the way they are)

increase swooping hawk weapon to 4 STR AP 4, instead of 3 STR AP 5 to breath life back into them and make them at least somewhat useful for their cost, they are beautiful models and go so seldom used

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:How about letting Assault-weapon carrying Eldar use Fleet and still be able to fire their weapons? It would certainly add to their mobility.

Call the ability something like quick shot,

Like to see Guardians vs Dire Avengers kind of like this:

5-10 Guardians - non-FOC Troops
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv4+
R18" S4 AP5 A2 Rending Shuricat
*ALL* may swap Shuricat for R24" S3 AP5 Lasblaster
non-Scoring
May add BS4 AGP with crew for +XX pts

5-10 Dire Avenger - Troops
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv4+
R18" S4 AP5 A2 Rending Shuricat

Guardians would be a support unit, while Dire Avengers would be front-line. The DA would have the HTH ability to spearhead and fight. Their unit leaders would help further emphasize this:


Warlock - non-FOC HQ
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv4++
Any Guardian or Wraithguard unit joined by a Warlock is Scoring.
- Can grant Stealth

DA Exarch
WS5 BS5 S3 T3 W2 I6 A3 Ld9 Sv4+
- Can take mirrorshield, diresword, etc.

Disclaimer: I didn't read the whole thread:

Here's my 2 cents (opinion only).

1. Aspect Warriors should have the following statline:
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 A1 I5 Ld9 Sv(varies)

HTH aspects get +2 WS
Shooting aspects get +2 BS
Exarchs would naturally get +1WS +1BS and +1Ld over their brethern.

2. Guardians need to be more flexible. I'd suggest: Heavy weapon may be bought for every 10 guardians in the squad OR special weapon may be bought for every 5 guardians in the squad. Maximum squad size 20. Guardians should be able to buy a Captain upgrade for the squad in addition to attaching a warlock. The Captain would add a power weapon to the squad at WS4, provide LD9 and alow the squad to purchase either: Scout, Outflank or Move Through Cover. Guardians themselves should be cheap. The upgrades should be moderately priced. A 20 man squad w/ captain, warlock and two heavy weapons should come out to around 225-250 points.

3. Vehicles need to be BS4.

4. Wraithguard should be T5 Sv2+/Feel no pain. Wraithcannon should be 18" range.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Like to see Guardians vs Dire Avengers kind of like this:

5-10 Guardians - non-FOC Troops
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv4+
R18" S4 AP5 A2 Rending Shuricat
*ALL* may swap Shuricat for R24" S3 AP5 Lasblaster
non-Scoring
May add BS4 AGP with crew for +XX pts

5-10 Dire Avenger - Troops
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv4+
R18" S4 AP5 A2 Rending Shuricat

Guardians would be a support unit, while Dire Avengers would be front-line. The DA would have the HTH ability to spearhead and fight. Their unit leaders would help further emphasize this:


Warlock - non-FOC HQ
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv4++
Any Guardian or Wraithguard unit joined by a Warlock is Scoring.
- Can grant Stealth

DA Exarch
WS5 BS5 S3 T3 W2 I6 A3 Ld9 Sv4+
- Can take mirrorshield, diresword, etc.

Honestly, I don't like the idea of rending shuricats on guardians, but it would be a good way to differentiate Dire Avenger catapults from Guardian catapults.

I want Crystal Targeting Matrix again. Along with 3 shot starcannons.

They need to do something about Falcons , atm they arnt anywhere as good as WL or WW.

Either increase pulsar to heavy 3 ,

or keep the heavy 2 and give it *lance rule
oh and bs4 :"P

or 1-2 per heavy slot

LunaHound wrote:They need to do something about Falcons , atm they arnt anywhere as good as WL or WW.

Either increase pulsar to heavy 3 ,

or keep the heavy 2 and give it *lance rule
oh and bs4 :"P

or 1-2 per heavy slot

One common thing among new books is that the designers are not afraid to make units very, very destructive. See: Ork Boyz, Thunderfire Cannon, Typhoon Missile Launchers, Almost any of the new Basilisk variants, Leman Russ Executioner, Land Raider Redeemer, etc.

Historically, Eldar have owned this kind of destructive power. Fire dragons are an excellent example. And yet many of the Eldar vehicles are falling behind, especially for their points cost and lack of durability with 5th ed skimmer rules. Also most Eldar infantry is not really destructive enough to justify their high points cost and fragility.

So, pretty much anything that would increase the killing power of Eldar is welcome.

I would really like to see it go back to small model count armies with high damage output and incredible maneuverability.

1. Increase the Avatars abilities in H t H combat ; per 2nd he could actually kill a bloodthirster. He should have at least 6 Attacks. A Flame Template such as a Redeemer profile would be incredible.

I would leave his baseline stats the same ; but increase him to a 6 attack base. Still keep the fearless rule ; but any squad that any squad within 12 automatically rallies regardless of squad size.

Make this guy a beast he is suppose to be one


2. Psychics; First off the eldar are suppose to be some of the greatest pskyers in the universe. Make them that ; increase ranges overall.

3. Exarchs ; they're not sergeants with nicer weapon ability.


Basically I'd like to see a return of incredibly low model count hihg power army.

Oh and Web Portals as that gak is cool.

The current Eldar Codex is not bad, it's just being left behind by the times. Here is my list of changes I would make:

-HQ-

Eldrad becomes more expensive or standard Seers become more useful. I vote towards the latter.

Autarchs choose which aspect they come from and make that Aspect Troops. They will stll have standard Wargear Options.

Pheonix Lords make their aspect troops. All Lords get FNP and and Inv. Standard in addition to what they are now with no points upgrade.

Avatar stays.

-Elites-

All Aspects become cheaper. Banshees should be no more then 14 points each. Fire Dragons get a template option.

-Troops-

DA become cheaper, Bladestorm becomes an anytime ability but prevents assaulting.

Guardians become cheaper, Conceal not only adds a cover save but improves the cover they are in.

Jetbikes stay the same.

Wave Serpents are no more then 70 points with Shuriken Cannon standard. Their field become an "always on" 4+ cover save. Eldar don't need to assault from their transports, just make them survivable enough to handle a round of shooting.

-Fast Attack-

Warp Spiders gain a template option. Preferably blast. Should get rending on their weapons.

Swooping Hawks get better shooting. Maybe their guns become Str. 4 and Rending.

Vypers get treated like new Sentinels, either stays the same and can scout or you get a heavyly armored version but loose scout. Base mode is cheaper.

Warwalkers move to FA, their shield now adds +1 cover save or counts aa a 4+ or both.

-Heavy-

Falcons stay they same but get a slight reduction in points.

Fire Prism stays the same with the exception of a -1 AP to all their shooting. Slightly Cheaper.

Support Batteries get an energy field that gives them a 4+ and +1 to any terrain they are in.

Dark Reapers get an option to ignore cover.

i would like to see harlequins have the option to ride jetbikes (except death jester) with jetbikes they are fielded as a FA slot

Some really good ideas here.

Mahu-I like your suggestions for the most part but would argue with a couple. The biggest would be Aspects getting cheaper. I'd rather they were improved through available options. This would help to keep them a low model count Elite army.

Hollisman- Your dead on as far as coming from an Eldar design philosophy.

WillyDstyle-Same as what I said to Hollisman.

Keesus-I like the concept of going back to base-lines and showing why things improve in which area. It might help to allieviate a lot of complaining about what various armies get.

I would tweek the base line a bit though, something like:

WS4 BS4 Str3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv (varied)

This thought comes from the Eldar are a long-lived but dying warrior race. Everything in their army should kick butt and be fairly expensive to represent this.

I think Guardians would be good at 10pts each with the following:

WS4 BS4 Str3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv5+

Equip: Shuricats w/18 range for Guardians, 2shot shuripistols and sword for StormGuardians, basic grenades for both types of guardians.

Optional equip: Guardian defenders may take a Weapons platform for every 10 men in the squad.
Storm Guardians get the same fusion and flamer option but also the option for Haywires at 3 pts each.


Dire avengers would be different by having BS5 I5 A2 Sv4+ , both plasma and haywire grenades, and the bladestorm ability would include making their shuricats rending. They would cost about 15pts each. If Asuremen is on the field they get the Furious assault ability.

I'll write up a new revised list of what would be coll later. Got things to do,IRL right now.

Mahu-I like your suggestions for the most part but would argue with a couple. The biggest would be Aspects getting cheaper. I'd rather they were improved through available options. This would help to keep them a low model count Elite army.

Aspect Warriors need to be cheaper to match the current trend in 40k where the only thing that doesn't seem to be getting cheaper are space marines (which should be accurate.

Nothing to drastic though, maybe a 1 or 2 point reduction per model combined with slightly better abilities. They are pretty good as is, but the main reason you see nobody field that many of them is because of their cost and the fact that they are not scoring.

That is also why I proposed Autarch and Pheonix Lords have the ability to confer either troops or scoring to the Aspects. I prefer troops as it reintroduces Biel-Tan lists, but with a choice. Farseers or Autarchs/Pheonix Lords. It would build greater list diversity among eldar players.

Hollisman- Your dead on as far as coming from an Eldar design philosophy.

I agree with him to a point. Eldar shouldn't be too low model count because at a certain point you are making them cost more just for the sake of making them cost more, because there is no amount of special rules that would adapt to less models. This is the mistake that the 3rd edition eldar codex made.

The only truly low model count Eldar armies should be aspect heavy ones, and that is because you are investing points on vehicles and wargear to get them to the objective, not on the units themselves.

Keesus-I like the concept of going back to base-lines and showing why things improve in which area. It might help to allieviate a lot of complaining about what various armies get.

I agree that the Eldar deserve a BS upgrade across the board. They should be at least even with and possibly be better then Marines in WS, BS, and Init. across the board. Guardians should be BS 4 WS 4 Init 5, Aspects should be BS 5 WS 5 Init 6, and Leaders should be BS 6/7, WS 6/7, Init 6/7.

Eldar (and Tau) should always be about quality over quantity.

I would agree with your changes.

I also think that the Eldar Holofield should be slightly cheaper, and the Eldar should have a universal vehicle upgrade that confers a 4+ cover save all the time.

So I am a long time eldar player, and I think that they could easily be fixed by going back to their second ed. roots. They were always supposed to be the best equipped race in the galaxy, and also the one with the most psykers. So what we do here is too fold.

1. Bring back mid-level psykers. Make it like an elite for 1-3 or an HQ for 1-3. They get one or two psychic (*rant* if GW insists on spelling it 'Psyker' with a k shouldn't it also by 'Psykik' powers ??? However that sounds stupid and like you've been reading too many books in the 'Magick and Candles' part of the bookshop. They are psychics.*rant*) powers, and maybe warlock powers too; the squad can also be split up to join other squads. This way you can put a doom toting fortune casting 'Master warlock' (Farseer apprentice?) with each elite squad. Your shooty squads all have their own dedicated 'guider', and the mounted squads have someone to fortune them (and put them in cover) the turn they hop out of their transport. Also the actual Farseer needs to be able to cast all the powers he buys; regardless. See writings of Inquistitor Czevak. Just imagine if every scorpion squad was fortuned in combat... and if every banshee struck a doomed target... and if every bladestorm were guided. *drool*

2. Old Skool (really?) guardians could access an armoury (like every other army has, you know?), so you could make squads that had Power Fists and melta guns in them. Guardians either need to be able to get up-gunned or up-sworded. (2-3 power weapons or fists, special weapons to compliment the heavy platform).

Add the option of taking a Wraithlord as an HQ and give it it's own set of options. The current 'dex does state in the fluff that Wraithlords can lead Eldar incursions.

Maybe call it a Wraithprince

He'd have higher WS, BS, a 4th wound, and a 2+ save. Also the ability to let friendly Eldar units within a certain range use his Ld, which is 10.

For something that good though, he should cost a good sum.

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:Add the option of taking a Wraithlord as an HQ and give it it's own set of options. The current 'dex does state in the fluff that Wraithlords can lead Eldar incursions.

Maybe call it a Wraithprince

He'd have higher WS, BS, a 4th wound, and a 2+ save. Also the ability to let friendly Eldar units within a certain range use his Ld, which is 10.

For something that good though, he should cost a good sum.

... and while your at it he doesn't suffer from wrath sight and gets the options of (instead of 2 weapons) taking one of the Support Weapon Battery guns or a close combat weapon that gives him extra attacks (+d6?)

Nah - just let him pick an Aspect for a statline bonus and extra ability. For example:

Former Banshee Exarch - must take wraithsword, but gains +1I and Fleet.

Former Hawk Exarch - must take Scatter Laser, but is Jump Infantry and gains H&R

and so on...

Oh man, a Wraithlord with Hawk wings would be an epic model.

Former Scorpion Exarch- Must take Wraithsword and Shuriken Cannon (or whatever Shuriken thing he can take), but gains +1A and causes Instant Death.

Former Reaper Exarch- Must take EML, but gains 1 additional shot when firing any weapon.

Id like the wraithlord as a leader, kind of like the beastman shaggoth.

Having a base aspect warrior statline, then paying points to upgrade to whatever aspect?

Also like the idea of temoplate dragons - maybe the option to take 'fusion gun or dragon breath flamer' in their entry, or can fire the gun as either a melta or a flamer, as per Ork Burnas.

Xenith wrote:Having a base aspect warrior statline, then paying points to upgrade to whatever aspect?

It'd have the base Wraithlord statline, then the option to choose the aspect that it was in life. However, there are upgrades that it MUST take in order to have the traits of that aspect. So if it would have been a Howling Banshee in life, for example, it'd have to buy a Wraithsword and nothing else, but it would gain +1I and Fleet. Only one aspect can be chosen, and it can only take the upgrades that are required to be in the aspect, nothing else can be chosen.

If Wraithlords did become HQs, I'd certainly turn to Space Elfs.

After thinking about this a bit more - IMO the key to making a flavourful Eldar codex while retaining flexibility is to properly define the roles of the units in the army - and revise the statlines and abilities to suit. I think that the Eldar army should return to the "Craftworld Eldar Codex" archetypes.

Archetype 1. Ulthwe - Guardian Heavy:

This is the citizen's army. Realistically, I've always felt that using only guardian and guardian equipment is more than enough for an entire list - and I would like to see that made viable somehow - i.e. No aspect warriors, wraith constructs or harlequins.

HQ - Avatar, Farseer, Autarch.
Troops - Guardians, Dire Avengers (according to fluff, these guys are everywhere), Guardian Jetbikes, Rangers
Elites - Wraithguard, Harlequins, Dragons, Scorpions, Banshees
Fast Attack - Warwalkers, Vypers, Shining spears, Spiders, Hawks
Heavy Support - Fireprism, Falcon, Wraithlord, Dark Reapers

Heavy support batteries made into upgrade for Guardian squads. As a backbone unit - but to retain the flavour of a citizen's militia, Guardians are cheap. Their equipment is expensive. 5 points for existing statistics is a good starting point. They need to be far more flexible however. Giving them upgrade commanders to boost their LD while offering "skills" like the IG's order system would go far to improve the humble Guardian. At 10-20 men strong, with a conceal save, heavy weapon for every 10 men, or special weapon for every 4 men, or up to 3 support weapons - even the 12" range on the shuricats isn't a deal breaker. The problem with Guardians now is that they only have one mode of function, and they suck at it - being slow, fragile and short ranged.

Being slow can be fixed with alternate deploy rules made available through the squad sgt upgrades. Fragile can be mitigated by making conceal a +2 to cover saves.

Archetype 2. Biel Tan - Swordwind - Unlocked by a Pheonix Lord as HQ.

Troops sharing same type as the pheonix lord are fearless.
Aspect warriors are scoring and may be taken as troop choices as well as their original force organization slot.
Compulsory troops slots MUST be filled by aspect warriors.
Guardians become 0-2
All non-vehicle, non aspect warrior choices become 0-1

Archetype 3. Iyanden - Unlocked by selecting the Bonesinger upgrade for a Farseer

Wraithguard are scoring and may be taken as troop choices as well as elites.
Wraithlords may be taken as elites as well as heavy support choices.
Compuslory troops slots MUST be filled by wraithguard.
All guardian choices besides waveserpents become 0-1
All aspect warrior choices become 0-1

Archetype 4. Alaitoc - Unlocked by selecting Exodite Lord upgrade for an Autarch

Rangers are automatically upgraded to pathfinders.
Compulsory choices must be filled by rangers.
Harlequins are 0-3 in this list as opposed to 0-1 in all others.
Non vehicle models may infiltrate.

Archetype 5. Saim Hann - Unlocked by selecting Wind Rider Chief upgrade for an Autarch

Guardian jetbikes and mounted guardians as troops ONLY.
Any non-vehicle choices selected must have a transport - choices without vehicles may not be selected.
Entire army may outflank.

Keep in mind, this is only a framework of ideas.

lol, the Striking Scorpion Wraithlord I modelled has a Scorpion's Claw in place of a sword...

I like the idea of a Wraithlord Champion as well as the mid-grade Seer-locks. They could use a power each from the warlock and farseer lists; buying them as an HQ selection and allowing them to stay together as a council (not retinue) or be distributed among other units (warlocks, aspects, or guardian squads) would give some great flexibility.

I'd like to have the Phoenix Lords make their aspects scoring units. In addition to making the squad they join Fearless, they make other squads in their aspect Stubborn.

They also need to be brought up to standard since their roles are mixed up at the moment. Maugan Ra, for instance, is better fielded with Harlies than Reapers. I'd like to see them allow aspects to upgrade en masse, like Asurmen allowing Bladestorming every round or Fuegan allowing all dragons to trade fusion guns for dragonsbreath flamers.

Guardians should definitely have plasma grenades and I like the idea of 1 HWP per 10 or 1 special (flamer, fusion, power weapon, chainsword, powerfist?) per 5 models. I'd love a return of the eldar powerfist. I'd also like to see their armor save go up a point. Shurikens should have 18" range or be 12" assault 3 to compensate. As it is, they're almost purely backline troops (yes, they ARE defenders, but they are still soldiers) and are only taken for that heavy platform.

I think a squad sergeant upgrade (a sort of Autarch-in-training) that allows guardians to swap Assault shurikens for Rapid Fire - they'd get 24" range - would be a good idea. Or give them the Hit and Run USR if they're Stormies.

How about giving the Wave Serpents and Falcons a "Pivot" ability.

This ability would allow the transport to pivot in place at the start of their turn, and disembark troops as if it had not moved. Allowing those troops to assult that turn.

This would remove the need for new eldar vehicles with assault ramps.

My next suggestion is to give the Wraithguard a Close Combat option. Go old school and call them Ghost/Spirit warriors. I highly doubt we will ever see a plastic Wraithguard box if none of them have options to swap out weapons. Say each wraithguard has the choice to be equipped with a wraithcannon or a "Wraithpistol" and PW.

Rangerrob-I like this pivot ability but would implement it a bit differently.

I'd tie this ability to the Vectored Thrusters and then make it to where the wave serp has to spin at the end of the movement phase allowing unirts with the acrobatic ability to assault out of them as if they were opened topped. I think it might need a limiting factor but maybe exposing rear armour is enough of a drawback. The rule should have in it that the Farthest edge from the front starting point has to be less than 12".

I like the Storm Wraiths Idea, too.

Sazzlefrats wrote: Why do space marine scouts cost so little and these buggers are 50% more? or 100% more?!

Because their sniper rifles rend on 5's or more on HITS. Other than that, I agree with you. I mean, look at guardians.Come on, 8 pts for what amounts to a Guardsman with an assault weapon? I mean, the HW with the move and shoot rule would be good if they weren't so expensive.

-A.

Honestly, pathfinders are overpriced for what they can do, and for how they really have very few targets that they're more effective against than other unit types for the same points cost (monstrous creatures mostly). If I didn't need a (relatively) inexpensive unit for claiming back-field objectives, I probably wouldn't take pathfinders.

It's just that the other options for the same job are not really any less expensive, and aren't any better for doing the same job. Guardian squads come in at 85 points minimum, and they're more fragile, and less destructive, and that's for the equivalent of a IG squad with a heavy bolter and no special weapon, and no 24" range on their basic guns, with a stat bonus (+1 I) that does them no good in their preferred battlefield role. The IG squad costs less points and can gain the benefit of orders as well as having assault grenades (something the Eldar could potentially actually make use of).

I would prefer we avoid the non- Dire Avenger troop slot aspect warriors. It just opens up too much cheese.

How about these changes to the phoenix lord.

1. Makes all aspect warriors fearless (as Avatar)
2. Allows all aspects of the phoenix lord to be scoring.
(i.e. Jain Zar makes Howling Banshees scoring.)
3. One unit of the phoenix lord's aspect may be taken as a retinue. No slot used. Allow Asurmen to qualify for two extra Dire Avenger units.

Beil Tan can still do the deed but it is forced into 2 regular troop choice and while not forced, it can take a
any choices but for fluff should take Dire Avengers.

A number of points have been raised about aspect abilities and upping the stats. The argument that WS/BS 6 for exarchs is too much may be valid. So why not:

Keep costs the same.
1. Scorpions and Banshees are CC aspects
Avengers, Spiders are Dual purpose. (Fluff wise if not in game. Otherwise bump them to shooting)
Hawks and Reapers are Shooting aspects.

CC aspects: WS 5 BS 3 A 2
Dual: WS 4 BS 4 A 2
Shooting: WS 3 BS 5 A 2

Exarch: Improve WS/BS +1 but not greater than 5
A +1. Ld +1 AV +1 and unlock abilities.

The attack value is base of 2 doing a comparison to Marine "guard" units that all get a base 2 attacks whether they are vangards, honor guard or sternguards. If these long-lived eldar epitomize combat, then they should have an increased base of attacks too. They just have to deal with -1 S & T while having +1 I.

How are Scorpions or Banshee as Troops "cheese"?

Before replying, please review the CSM Troops.

JohnHwangDD wrote:How are Scorpions or Banshee as Troops "cheese"?

Before replying, please review the CSM Troops.

Ahhh... fine take an army of Banshees or Scorpions.... Let's see the howl of marines as you take an aspect army of Dark Reapers as say 4 troop choices and 3 heavies... Or how about the Fuegan's mech army of Fire Dragons... Anyone up for facing 60 or so scoring fire dragons popping out of Wave Serpents? How about the Swooping Hawk skyleap army that you opponent can't touch until turn 5 when you have to start staying on the board?

Scorpions and Banshees are indead not cheese they are no worse than Dire Avenger shootiness. But there are other aspects and that is what I am saying is cheese. If you look at all I said, you can have 4 units of elite/heavy/fast aspects plus 6 units of dire avengers that are all scoring. So if points weren't the object and say you had a passion for scorpions, you could do.

Karandas
Retinue of 10 scorpions
3 Elites of 10 scorpions
6 Troops of 10 Dire Avengers
3 Fasts of 10 Warp Spiders
3 Heavies of 5 Dark Reapers.

Sound like a Biel Tan aspect army to me and 10 scoring units is not too shabby.

DAaddict wrote:Ahhh... fine take an army of Banshees or Scorpions....

Let's see the howl of marines as you take an aspect army of Dark Reapers as say 4 troop choices and 3 heavies...

Or how about the Fuegan's mech army of Fire Dragons... Anyone up for facing 60 or so scoring fire dragons popping out of Wave Serpents?

How about the Swooping Hawk skyleap army that you opponent can't touch until turn 5 when you have to start staying on the board?

Scorpions and Banshees are indead not cheese they are no worse than Dire Avenger shootiness. But there are other aspects and that is what I am saying is cheese.

OK, then we're agreed that Banshees & Scorps are OK as Troops.

4x Scorpions + 3x Reapers? Much weaker than 4x PM + 3x Oblits. Or 4x BA AM + 3x Devs w/ PCs

Fuegan + 6x 10 FD in WS is well over 1600 pts, so it had better be good, as that's your entire army. I think it auto-loses to mobbed Orks, though. I'm pretty sure that Dragons aren't a problem unit as Troops, even if taken as an army.

Skyleap is overrated, but even in C: CWE, SH (and Spears) remained Fast, so I don't think that this is something to be concerned about.

The only Aspects as Troops cheese was when we could take Reapers as Troops. CC Aspects? Definitely not cheese. Hawks & Dragons? Arguable. Spears & Spiders? Below the radar, and expensive per model, so not a major concern.

Remember, those Cult Marines are all Fearless, S4 T4+ in Sv3+ armor. They are just as specialized as Aspects, and they don't cause a problem as Troops. So the notion of non-Avenger Aspect Troops isn't bad, if done with some thought and reason.

Agreed. The problem is the simple "If you take a Phoenix Lord that aspect are troops" can be abused.

In a tournament, I would agree that the Fire Dragon army is not a real pain as there are answers to it but methinks your FNP Death Company marines will howl if you play that as will most other marines.

I don't like singling out any of the aspects but a new codex could allow the Scorps or Banshees to move to troop slots as a built in for
Jain Zar and Karandas but not allow it for any of the others.

Another nice - to justify the high cost of the lords would be to make ALL units of the same aspect qualify for their specials. So as an example, if you took Asurmen, all your Dire Avengers have Bladestorm and Defend. That significantly reduces the cost of all your dire avengers but you still may want the exarch for the items he adds to the unit. This would make it much like Vulkan modifies flamers/meltas for SM.

LOL: Spiders and Spears are non-starters as they do not have a Phoenix Lord. Forgot about that.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Remember, those Cult Marines are all Fearless, S4 T4+ in Sv3+ armor. They are just as specialized as Aspects, and they don't cause a problem as Troops. So the notion of non-Avenger Aspect Troops isn't bad, if done with some thought and reason.

And they cost over 20 points per...while aspects are cheaper.

I like the idea of the Phoenix lord making their aspects scoring (rather than troops) as I see Aspect Warriors like Sternguard. If they did become troops I would think a skyleap army of scoring units wouldn't be much fun to play against.

Oh, no doubt that PL = Aspect Troops is a problem, and that's only because of Maugen Ra. I don't think anybody seriously suggests this.

Also, those FNP DC will do just fine if they get into HtH...

If I had to guess at a universal PL rule, taking a PL should make their Aspects Scoring and Fearless, but who knows, maybe granting a bonus special rule will be the cherry on top of the sundae.

Honestly I don't see why dark reapers as troops would be a big problem. Noise marines are comparable, and even better against many armies, for cheaper.

[quote=Casper And they cost over 20 points per...while aspects are cheaper.

@willy: 5th tries to do away with Dev-type units as Troops, so I can't see it happening even it it were "fair".
____

@DA: I think you forget the +1A for 2 CCWs on the Eldar CC Aspects.

Banshees = 27@S3 + 3@S5 = 14 + 2 hits = 2 + 1 wounds = *3* dead PM. So the battle should be roughly a draw. Don't sell the girls short! Of course, being T3 Sv4+ is a minor problem when you can't charge out of the Transport...

The Scorps have Sv3+, so they have better chances to get into HtH, for their 40+ S4 attacks, hitting 20, wounding 7, 2.5 fail save = a smidge over *1* dead PM.

Yes, PM rock for their points...
____

Never mind, forgot about the Grenades...

Firstly:

Charge out of the Wave Serpent. No Doubt this HAS to be changed for an Eldar army to work at all. Like has been said, Eldar has lost their speed and need it back.

Secondly. Fix Starcannon, there's a thread on it now.

Thirdly. Fix Guardians, add an extra point to cost, add an extra WS to assualt squads and BS to defender squads, and make all shuriken weapons rending. If your firing ~18 shots with BS 4 rending all of a sudden your opponent is actually scared of getting within 12" instead of current things where guardians are better out of 12" due to enemy rapid fire or charge!

On a side note: Warlock cover save needs to be 4+ not 5+ and should count as being in cover for charge. That way defenders are now deadly! Assault squads with WS 5 I 5 and 3 attacks on the charge from the transport are a lot better compared to the epic fael they are now lol. Assault squads wont replace scorpions as scorpions have the 3+ save, s4, more attacks, they survive better out of combat and can take on armor 10 vehicles.

Finally, aspect warriors:

I like the PL makes aspects scoring units, and perhaps fearless. This would aid a lot.

Fix some aspect abilities, like Warp Spiders for example. Exarch powers should be like cheese you wanna take as soon as you bother to get an exarch, like Bladestorm, and Defend! Not crap stuff that you only use if you have left over points like War Shout or Stalker (which should be ignore difficult terrain).


I can't personally see any cheese in the current codex that we will lose, except maybe the dark reaper exarch with the tempest launcher, but that seems good not IMBA. Also I imagine they will probably make it so Wraithguard and Wraithlords count as mindless with out a psyker withing 12" (or 6" if they are cruel or 18" if nice) so that they can not contest objectives without that psyker.

Also, Aspects as troops (even just scorpions or HB) is not a good thing. Your whole army with Power Weapons is just cruel, MEQ anfd FNP armies (or both with PM) will suffer greatly! Having ~15 point models reduced to the effectiveness of 6 point guys is lose! Honestly Howling Banshees are actually behind PM (the second guy forgot the defensive grenades lose an attack on charge) but that's because PM have very little damage output, while a squad of banshees can kill a squad of marines in one assault! Your whole army infiltrating is also a bit harsh, it's only a turn before your assaulted by an army worth of mean troops! Sure it's kind of like the Daemons codex, but half their army is forced in to reserve to even it out!

JohnHwangDD wrote:@willy: 5th tries to do away with Dev-type units as Troops, so I can't see it happening even it it were "fair".
____

@DA: I think you forget the +1A for 2 CCWs on the Eldar CC Aspects.

Banshees = 27@S3 + 3@S5 = 14 + 2 hits = 2 + 1 wounds = *3* dead PM. So the battle should be roughly a draw. Don't sell the girls short! Of course, being T3 Sv4+ is a minor problem when you can't charge out of the Transport...

The Scorps have Sv3+, so they have better chances to get into HtH, for their 40+ S4 attacks, hitting 20, wounding 7, 2.5 fail save = a smidge over *1* dead PM.

Yes, PM rock for their points...

Nope. They lose +1 attack for charging because of the evil grenades the PMs got.

I agree with many of the rules ideas but I am currious to what direction people see Eldar going.

1) Increse stats/specail rules making eldar more like CSM, expensives points wise but very good at what they do? Few units but powerful?

2) Middle of the road, keep stats about the same but reduce the points cost on many things, while giving some things generic boosts to get the up do date.

3) Hordish, cheap points, many squads...

Which way do you see GW taking eldar?

Casper wrote:I agree with many of the rules ideas but I am currious to what direction people see Eldar going.

1) Increse stats/specail rules making eldar more like CSM, expensives points wise but very good at what they do? Few units but powerful?

2) Middle of the road, keep stats about the same but reduce the points cost on many things, while giving some things generic boosts to get the up do date.

3) Hordish, cheap points, many squads...

Which way do you see GW taking eldar?

All three. They are Eldar / The most flexible army in 40k. They will increase stats on some things so they can keeep up with the newer codexs. They will make some units cheaper points wise. hordeish...well maybe Mech horde. I can see them lowering the poits on the wave Serp and giving it a new ability (assault ramp?) so it will sell like the Valk.

Many people seem to have an issue with letting the PL use his aspects as scoring units. They still would not let them be troops, so you would still be limited on the # of squads you could take. Lets say someone did take Ra. He would still only have 3, and at a max of 5 in a squad that's a lot of points that a plasma cannon could devastate in a few turns.
Fire Dragons, cheep dirty and 12" range. Stay back then Assault, and that's just 2 troops like that you would need to worry about.

Casper wrote:1) Increse stats/specail rules making eldar more like CSM, expensives points wise but very good at what they do?

2) Middle of the road, keep stats about the same

3) Hordish, cheap points, many squads...

Which way do you see GW taking eldar?

I'd like to see GW take a 1.5 approach, with Aspects being more specialized and more tightly-focused, but about the same points / stats / cost-wise.

Points-wise, 15ppm or so is near the upper limit of what one might pay for a S3 T3 Aspect, before adding various gear.

Specialization might be well-handled via WS5 BS3 for HtH Aspects and WS3 BS5 for shooty Aspects, while retaining WS4 BS4 for generalist Aspects. I think the basic weapon kits are OK as-is, although the Guardians and Shuricats could use some tweaking.

Adding loads of detailed Special Rules probably isn't helpful, but a couple Army-wide universal rules probably wouldn't hurt, along with targeted application of USRs. For example, under 5E, the Eldar should probably have Fleet across the board, with "fast" Aspects gaining an improved Fleet (roll 2d6 & pick the best, or d3+3" Fleet).

As a "dying race", Horde is a horrible, horrible anti-Fluff approach. Guardians should be 5 to 10 models, with AGP option at 10 models. That said, many squads would be appropriate. Eldar should be competitive as a MSU build, preferably with some kind of option to withdraw unengaged units to avoid losing KPs.
_____

psf3077 wrote:Many people seem to have an issue with letting the PL use his aspects as scoring units.

I don't understand the problem here, either. It's no different from any of the other Special Characters making non-Troops units Scoring.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Oh, no doubt that PL = Aspect Troops is a problem, and that's only because of Maugen Ra. I don't think anybody seriously suggests this.

What? I do! Maugan Rah included! Dark Reapers are super expensive, T3 awful in CC, bleh armor wise, can't move and fire. Bring it, I think there are all sorts of armies that would wipe them out if used en masse as troops, like say, Demons?

Who cares...

EDIT:

especially with 5th ed 4+ cover everywhere rules!

The problem is that Reapers are "Devastator" class, and GW just doesn't do that any more, regardless of whether it'd be fair or not.

In thinking about it, I think all eldar troop carriers (WS and Falcon) should just get the assault vehicles rule, the points already well justify the upgrade anyhow.

EasyE wrote:In thinking about it, I think all eldar troop carriers (WS and Falcon) should just get the assault vehicles rule, the points already well justify the upgrade anyhow.

I really think it should be something more than just giving the falcon and WS Assault Ramps. Doin this make they leave their tails pointed at the enemy.

Something fluffy that seperated them from the Valk...

Like a free pivot before movement, so the tank could spin unload, then take off. Seems very Eldarish to me making both the troops and tanks faster.

there could be a trap door out the bottom, would be cool to drop them out the bottom from a skimmer since they're lifted up, which makes a lot of sense to me for an assault style anyway

i believe skimmers already get free pivoting, at some point during their move

Also would be nice to turn all shuriken cannon into shrieker cannons ( causes pinning )

Atm there is no reason to ever take SC instead of scatter laser
( sure its assault but vehicles / walkers / weapon platform doesnt matter? )

EasyE wrote:there could be a trap door out the bottom, would be cool to drop them out the bottom from a skimmer since they're lifted up, which makes a lot of sense to me for an assault style anyway

i believe skimmers already get free pivoting, at some point during their move

All vehicles may pivot as much as they want during movement.

The problem arises though, that while pivoting does not count as movement for the purpose of shooting a vehicle's weapons, it is still movement. So, because of the disembarking rules, you cannot perform this maneuver: pivot, disembark, move, or move, disembark, pivot.

Even in the best case scenario for trying to assault out of an Eldar vehicle currently, it must be stationary for a turn in the face of enemy firepower, then you have to disembark from the rear hatch, which is likely not the closest part of the vehicle to the enemy, move, fleet, and hope to be in assault range. If you could get a "free" rotation that does not count as movement at all, then at least you could disembark that much closer to the enemy.

fluff wise i like the trapdoor concept allowing for assaults, which i don't believe any other skimmers have, and would make eldar a bit more unique on the field

i didnt know that you couldn't pivot/move

It may be simpler to go back to assaulting out of teleportation.

Make the Wave Serpents transport hold into a web-gate and is able to teleport troops inside to anywhere within 2" of the vehicle. The Eldar are so adept at the use of this technology that they may choose one action after teleporting out of the hold. The choices are:
1)Shoot
2)Run
3)Assault

This combines with the natuaral eldar grace and speed that allows them to deploy from the vehicle if it has moved 18" or less. For each 6" less vehicle movement the Troops are allowed another action(12" = 2 actions, 6"= 3 actions, 3 actions are the max)

Actually, it's easier to simply give Eldar Assault Ramps, which is a well-understood rule, rather than to create a new teleportation rule from scratch.

The ramps would call for the Wave Serpent models being redone.

Bad enough that IG are getting 5 magical fire points on chimeras. There are going to be huge arguments about how TLoS works with the turret. Not really fond of the idea of the arguments that would ensue about the ramps location. Also not fond of the idea of having to buy new Wave Serps or remodeling my old ones that extensively.


I'm beginning to believe that every Xenos army should have Species or Racial Tactics. Army wide special rules that help to define the abilities of the race. They seem to be going that route a bit anyway.

@ff: you'll get your wish, as 40k goes the route of WFB, with each army getting their own special rules.

Looks that way doesn't it.

a cool upgrade on a wave serpent would be a modified warp jump generator, that gives an assaulting team extra assault distance

@John and Augustus- Not saying that I feel it is right. Just if that is the path GW is going to take then make it so for all of the armies.

I do see a certain logic to it but at the same time can see problems, too. In this case I believe the benefits will outweight the negatives.


Easy E- Similar to what I was suggesting. They could make it a buyable upgrade or make the ability armywide or just unit specific. It would give the need perfomance boost while still being fairly easy to balance.

Oh, no doubt, GW will do this for all of the armies. If you look at the recent MEQ books, it's clear that GW has already started down this path. Expect to see this accelerate in the coming years, as more and more Codices appear.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Oh, no doubt, GW will do this for all of the armies. If you look at the recent MEQ books, it's clear that GW has already started down this path. Expect to see this accelerate in the coming years, as more and more Codices appear.

The thing I worry about is that GW will decide "yeah we made those too good" and tone down all the codexes from here on out.

In late 3rd/ early 4th they were on a trip of "army customisation" rules with doctrines and chapter traits. Suddenly they got to the non Imperial codexes and 'voila' back to standard stuff with less variety.

In other words, just because they start making army lists to a given patter/standard, don't count on them to maintain that pattern for the whole edition.

I'm not looking at the edition per se, but more overall trends in WFB and 40k. And that trend is for much higher specialization of each army compared to anything that we've seen in 40k to date.

GW armies are being largely pre-designed to play a certain way, and while other options may be available, they will be decidely inefficient because they're only to be used to complement or round out an army, not as a primary function.

For example, if you want to play Assaut MEQs, you *will* play BA, BT, CM, or SW, or you simply won't be competitive. And for each of those flavors, there *will* be a preferred way of playing - JPs vs Drop Pods vs Land Raider Assault vs Rhino Rush. And so on. That way, GW can sell several flavors of differentiated MEQs.

I see the current trend of emphasizing characters over races/armies as a decided downturn in the game. Overall, when the latest codex eldar came out it was an improvement. The only codex nerfing I can think of was guardian minimum size doubling. (Instead of 5 guardians plus weapon it went to 10 guardians plus weapon.) The named characters were limited and with the exception of Eldrad, not army changing.

The problems are the subsequent changes:

1. Base cost of orcs going to 6, base cost of marines staying the same but with freebies, base transports of other races reducing in cost. Pretty well making guardians overpriced/underpowered and eldar vehicles awesome but at a high premium.
2. 5th edition: Absolute cover almost non-existent. Everyone moves as fast as eldar on foot. Vehicles move slower than infantry. Defensive weapons nerfing every eldar vehicle weapon option except EML. (and TL-Catapults) Vehicle damage charts replaced with one chart AND removing auto-glance from skimmers.

It is one thing to justify spending 180 points for an very hard to kill vehicle with a transport capacity of 6 that can unload all the weapons it has, moves faster than infantry. Now they are moderately armored, ignore the secondary weapons, move slower than eldar on foot, can't assault out of vehicles for the exact same cost.

I am not saying go back to the way falcons and prisms used to be but 12 armor that can only be glanced and are the definition of speed on the battlefield is WAAAY better than 12 armor that lives in fear of autocannons/lootas and can be run down by terminators and rarely fire other weapons.

I think that there is a place for special characters who change the game. It just needs to have a balanced approach. Make either the points cost force the balance or bring in force organization restrictions.

As long as non-special lists are just as capable of winning as the Special character lead armies.

Barring this, then stop naming them and just give us Generic Heros.


Now back to the Eldar. I would still like to see the next Codex Have rules for craftworld specific armies but only if you take the expensive Famous hero from that craftworld. No hero and your back to running the generic lists that are still just as capable of winning.

Giving the WL back a little bit of what they lost would be a good idea. They used to be walkers, and had 3 attacks because they had two dread cc weapons. The change to MC dropped their attacks annoyingly to 2. Making them MCs also meant that they lost out on walkers being able to fire all of their weapons; MC can only fire 2.
Giving them the sword option was great except ....... it only makes them have the same number of expected hits in cc as they USED to have, plus it costs 10 points now!

Obviously when the last codex was in the works word was passed down to nerf the WL but just saddling them with the stupidity problem was enough, they really should have their attack added back in.


Sliggoth

I don't want to derail the conversation, but can someone explain the Assault Ramp rule for me?

The Assault Ramp rule could be "fluffed" as Warp Portals, trap doors, or a special maneuver (like a double bootleg reverse...) but so long as the wording for it's rules are consistent with other armies, it's met muster.

Whether this requires remodelling or converting for existing models is completely up to the method of explanation. I could see any of the panels on the WS opening up as a trap door or the warp portal being hardwired into the structure of the WS. This has been done before and with no modelling updates necessary - when did serpents get the extra room for Guardian's AGP?

"Assault vehicles" simply let you assault on the same turn the vehicle moves.

There seems to be a consensus that the Eldar should be able to assault out of some sort of vehicle. I agree with this and feel as long as it isn't every unit or even the majority of the units in the Eldar army then it won't steal too much of the Dark Eldars thunder. Maybe, make it an aspect based ability.

What would be the next thing changed?

Just give certain aspect warriors the ability to assault after disembark instead of the vehicle.

Make phoenix lords a little cheaper but make it so they can take their aspect as troops

Only the Wave Serpent should allow assault, the Falcon should not. This helps to further differentiate the two Grav-Tank Transports.

Go with what I stated earlier...

Make the Howling Banshee Acrobatic ability confer the ability to disembark and assault from a moving transport.

Leaves Harlequins as the best on-foot assault unit and Scorpions as stealth experts.

DAaddict wrote:Go with what I stated earlier...

Make the Howling Banshee Acrobatic ability confer the ability to disembark and assault from a moving transport.

Leaves Harlequins as the best on-foot assault unit and Scorpions as stealth experts.

The only problem with the idea of "stealth experts" is that a unit on foot, whether it infiltrates or not, only assaults with the enemy's permission, and while Harlequins can mitigate the effects of enemy fire with Veil of Tears... well scorpions cannot.

So you'd put Banshees into the realm of "good, usable unit" while scorpions would be relegated to "stuff I like to look at on the shelf." Which, honestly, is kind of where scorpions are at right now for most decent Eldar builds.

I really think the main things hurting them are (some have been said already):

PROBLEMS
-High-cost Transports
-High-cost Guardians
-Mediocre-stat Aspect warriors
-High-cost Heavy weapons/upgrades
-Slower units

SOLUTIONS
-Lower cost like 5-10 points
-Lower to 6pts with same stats, or lower to 7 with WS/BS 4
-Add 1 more A and/or 1 more WS for CC-oriented Aspects, add BS and/or better weapons to ranged ones
-Lower the cost by 5-10 points (each weapon), and lower the vehicle upgrade cost
-Give a special fleet rule and faster vehicles

That's all of the real problems that I see, because, though we haven't had an update in a while, we are still doing OK, just not as competitive.

PS. When do y'all think a new 'Dex would come out (after DE and SW of course)?

augfubuoy wrote:PS. When do y'all think a new 'Dex would come out (after DE and SW of course)?

I wouldn't expect it in 2010, perhaps early 2011, Eldar are not that bad right now (yes the need to be updated for 5th like everthing), I think other armies deserve new codex's before eldar (Nids, Necrons, Inqusiton come to mind).

I have given some serious thought to balance issues. Here are my fixes.
Eldar are suppose to be a incredibly mobile, high fire power , but weak on toughness excepting 2 units.

They need to make exarchs more powerful.

They need to allow Banshees some sort of rule to assault on disembark.

Dire Avengers need to have a role that suits them better as a jack of all trades master of none; give them haywire grenades or something. i dont actually know what to do with Dire Avengers maybe a 3+ save and remove fleet or something.

Dark Reaper are perfect

Wraithlord needs to have the option of having a D Cannon again.

Vibrocannons and that other Shadowweaver thing need to be reworked

They need to produce some new damn warp spiders and reduce their point cost by about 3 to 4 points. 18 point warp spiders just feels right.

Wraithguard need a slight point reduction.

Phoenix Lords need to be made similar to Space Marines special characters
Phoenix Lords : Their legends embodied.
Give them the ability to 1. Take one free troop of their type that does not use up a force organization chart. 2. Allow their troop type only to count as scoring.

Baharath - Deep Striking: Allows reroll of scatter

Karandaras : Striking Scorpion he joins gains furious charge; may fleet.

Maugan Ra ; Gain Stealth

Asurman ; All Dire Avengers gain Stubborn

JainZar : Gain Preferred Enemy



Additional

Reduce cost of Warp Spiders by 4 points.

Allow the Wraithlord to take D- Cannon and other support weapons.

Banshees - Allow assault out of vehicle due to acrobatics.

Avatar : Increase Invulnerable save to 3+ increase Attacks to 6 , Give Flame Breath Weapon ST4 ap3 , Give Preferred enemy.


Psychics : Increase ranges of all psychic abiities by Farseer

Bring in new troop type Wraithbone Singer able to repair techmarine but from distance.

Give them Web Portals; their known to attack from web portals it makes no sense they do not have this.

I've been thinking about it, and bright lances should be AP1, but kept the same price they are now.

It would make them into actually viable tank-busting weapons. Whereas now, if you want to try to kill a vehicle with them, you have to pray at a shrine to khaine and hope for the best.

To these last two posts I would only add BS 4 on the Falcon with the two turret weapons systems counting as a single weapon when firing.


I would like to see the Eldar farseer and warlock abilities being buffed a bit. This comes more from a fluff sense rather than any in game need.

Instead of Phoenix Lords allowing their chosen aspects as troops, allow them to be scoring (ala Pedro).

Also, I'd like to see a use for autarchs besides Master Strategist. He's a great little add on to aspect squads, giving you an extra Reaper or Shining Spear, but doesn't effectively fill the HQ role as a Farseer. Personally, I'd like to see him be able to rearrange the FOC - taking wraithlords or falcons as elites or bike squadrons in fast attack, etc.

I like the idea of a Bonesinger upgrade for Farseers as well - one that eliminates the wraithsight rule or extends coverage to 18". I remember the old Eldar dreads from 2nd didn't require a psyker, just another eldar to measure the wraithsight from.

I think Autarchs would be a better option for a CC capable commander if he were allowed to take one piece of Exarch wargear.

You'd have to change the fluff too, though. Currently, they have aspect warrior gear because they've managed to serve in different aspects while avoiding the Path of the Exarch.

You could say that Autarchs are those rare Exarchs who do manage to escape the trap of the Shrine, and then go on to be great battle-leaders because they understand the intricacies of battle and bloodshed, but without being so single-minded as to be unable to think outside one aspect of Khaine.

But the fluff and the weapon options indicate pretty clearly that they were only Aspect Warriors, not Exarchs - who ARE trapped on the warrior path. Aspect Warriors are not on the path of the warrior all the time and thus are able to experience options of other life paths.

Autarchs are only able to equip themselves with basic aspect warrior weaponry, not Exarch weaponry, which is reserved for those totally dedicated to a specific method of warfare. Autarchs have sacrificed depth for breadth and are now Exarchs of the Path of Command. It's my belief that they should be able to enhance the command structure, rearranging the FOC, and allow the army as a whole to synergize more effectively.

I mentioned in an earlier post that Autarchs should allow Guardian squads to purchase a "sergeant" upgrade that allows them to fill a tactical role more effectively - +1 WS for Storms, +1 BS for Defenders, or take a USR like Hit and Run, Scouts, or Preferred Enemy.

This sergeant could be chosen instead of a warlock for the squad, would have a single Aspect Warrior weapon upgrade and I could see an Autarch allowing you to field a unit of them in the same way a Seer allows for 'lock squads. I see this option as more appropriate for the martial craftworlds like Iyanden, Biel-Tan, and Sam Haine, although Iyanden's Ghost Warriors should get some love in a new edition.

That's why I said they should change the fluff too. It happens, you know.

Gavin Thorne wrote: I mentioned in an earlier post that Autarchs should allow Guardian squads to purchase a "sergeant" upgrade that allows them to fill a tactical role more effectively - +1 WS for Storms, +1 BS for Defenders, or take a USR like Hit and Run, Scouts, or Preferred Enemy.

This sergeant could be chosen instead of a warlock for the squad, would have a single Aspect Warrior weapon upgrade and I could see an Autarch allowing you to field a unit of them in the same way a Seer allows for 'lock squads. I see this option as more appropriate for the martial craftworlds like Iyanden, Biel-Tan, and Sam Haine, although Iyanden's Ghost Warriors should get some love in a new edition.

I really like the idea of a sergeant. And if you add a warlock, so much the better. I feel like guardians really are overpriced and just can't be customized, save for their one heavy weapon. Sure you can add a warlock, but that's not the point. They shouldn't need to have a warlock. They should have some options in and of themselves. Just give the space elf sergeant 2 attacks, a power weapon, and some horribly expensive upgrade that'll help the whole squad (5+ cover save, etc.) just like you said.

Either that or we could just make separate codex's for all the chapters like space marines have. How about a Biel-Tan or Ulthwe codex? And while we're at it, how about a Nurgle and Tzeench and Khorne codex? How about we just put some time and effort into game development.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Either that or we could just make separate codex's for all the chapters like space marines have. How about a Biel-Tan or Ulthwe codex? And while we're at it, how about a Nurgle and Tzeench and Khorne codex? How about we just put some time and effort into game development.

This is almost sig worth... as HBMC has stated relentlessly, GW is not a games company that makes miniatures to sell rules, it makes rules to sell miniatures. This bites them in the a$$ since making units undesireable in game makes selling the models more difficult, but eldar are second string compared to the better sellers like marines and chaos.

@Gavin: That's probably true, but SM & CSM are the two biggest sellers for 40k.

Based on support, I would imagine that Eldar (historically) sell better than any other Xenos (i.e. Necrons, Orks, Tau, Nids). Orks are catching up for lost time, and Eldar took a big hit in 5th, so Orks may have be passing Eldar now.

Funny how the Fluff is catching up with reality.

Gavin Thorne wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Either that or we could just make separate codex's for all the chapters like space marines have. How about a Biel-Tan or Ulthwe codex? And while we're at it, how about a Nurgle and Tzeench and Khorne codex? How about we just put some time and effort into game development.

This is almost sig worth... as HBMC has stated relentlessly, GW is not a games company that makes miniatures to sell rules, it makes rules to sell miniatures. This bites them in the a$$ since making units undesireable in game makes selling the models more difficult, but eldar are second string compared to the better sellers like marines and chaos.

First of all, thank you!

Second of all, that was sig worth too. How are you doing yourself a favour if your rules make the most expensive models undesirable? Is GW like one of my schizo ex-girlfriends? Does the right hand have no idea what the left hand is doing? How about the codex writers and developers and marketing and purchasing people all get together and WORK together.

Well, if we look at some of the most desireable lists recently, things like Bike Council, Mechdar, Tri-Prism and Ghost Army/Elfzilla, we see that the more expensive models do get good rules. Things like Prisms, Wave Serpents, metal Farseers/Warlocks and Jetbikes en masse, Wraithlords, and Wraithguard all cost a pretty penny, supporting the argument that $$=win! in the eyes of the great gee-dub.

Other models don't get the same love. The relatively low-$$-cost Guardians are seen as a drawback in most lists because they don't have tooth. They're too soft and essentially are extra wounds for a heavy weapon.

I'd love to see Guardians get more bang for their buck, but I don't see it happening.

Gavin Thorne wrote:Well, if we look at some of the most desireable lists recently, things like Bike Council, Mechdar, Tri-Prism and Ghost Army/Elfzilla, we see that the more expensive models do get good rules. Things like Prisms, Wave Serpents, metal Farseers/Warlocks and Jetbikes en masse, Wraithlords, and Wraithguard all cost a pretty penny, supporting the argument that $$=win! in the eyes of the great gee-dub.

Other models don't get the same love. The relatively low-$$-cost Guardians are seen as a drawback in most lists because they don't have tooth. They're too soft and essentially are extra wounds for a heavy weapon.

I'd love to see Guardians get more bang for their buck, but I don't see it happening.

Too true if you want to make Guardians useful... well more useful then they'd normally be, you turn them into Storm Guardians (a pair of fusion guns or flamers is fair more useful YMMV)

8 SG = £17.60
10+platform GD= £17.60

And how do GW do it? They make it out of metal (badly in the case of Fire Prisms). For example 4 plastic Guardians is £4.90 and a 4 metal models (A Farseer and 3 Warlock Bodyguard) is £17.60. And detail wise my 4 guardians with green stuff robes are just as detailed (and they also come in at just under 3 times cheaper as well)

I agree with you G_f_C,

If GW stepped up and produced and released a complete, balanced ruleset and codeci for all armies simultaneously, we wouldn't have the problems codex creep and obsolete lists present. While I doubt this would completely solve the problem of models being over-valued or under-valued (both points and price wise) due to their effects in play, I think it would go far at addressing the issue.

Tri wrote:

Gavin Thorne wrote:Well, if we look at some of the most desireable lists recently, things like Bike Council, Mechdar, Tri-Prism and Ghost Army/Elfzilla, we see that the more expensive models do get good rules. Things like Prisms, Wave Serpents, metal Farseers/Warlocks and Jetbikes en masse, Wraithlords, and Wraithguard all cost a pretty penny, supporting the argument that $$=win! in the eyes of the great gee-dub.

Other models don't get the same love. The relatively low-$$-cost Guardians are seen as a drawback in most lists because they don't have tooth. They're too soft and essentially are extra wounds for a heavy weapon.

I'd love to see Guardians get more bang for their buck, but I don't see it happening.

Too true if you want to make Guardians useful... well more useful then they'd normally be, you turn them into Storm Guardians (a pair of fusion guns or flamers is fair more useful YMMV)

8 SG = £17.60
10+platform GD= £17.60

And how do GW do it? They make it out of metal (badly in the case of Fire Prisms). For example 4 plastic Guardians is £4.90 and a 4 metal models (A Farseer and 3 Warlock Bodyguard) is £17.60. And detail wise my 4 guardians with green stuff robes are just as detailed (and they also come in at just under 3 times cheaper as well)

Pics or it never happened. The farseers and warlocks are some of my favorite models in the Eldar line, and you'd have to have some damned impressive GS skills to turn guardians into something that compares.

Sure you can: start with a guardian, add the Dire Avenger Exarch Diresword and gauntlet-Shuriken Pistol. Next, make a GS press-mould of the warlock's rune armor and use it to add runes over the chest of a guardian. Roll out some sheets and drape around the waist, shoulders and arms to make longcoats/robes.

I love warlocks and farseers fluff wise but some of the models disappoint me because most haven't been updated since 2nd ed. Don't get me wrong, I love my 2nd ed miniatures, especially my eldar, but they are wicked hard to convert. Since my army is Exodites I have to convert just about everything, including my warlock squads. I'll not post them here, but you can check my gallery for the models I put together using Dark Elf, High Elf, and Eldar bits with GS runes. They get paint next week.

Point cost increase, and Exarchs to ID characters (who can't leave the squad) but become 2W models with WS/BS6 A3. They're probably the flightiest guys in the galaxy, and older and more experienced than most army's HQ (and are constantly improving and aren't autonimated).

Gavin Thorne wrote:Sure you can: start with a guardian, add the Dire Avenger Exarch Diresword and gauntlet-Shuriken Pistol. Next, make a GS press-mould of the warlock's rune armor and use it to add runes over the chest of a guardian. Roll out some sheets and drape around the waist, shoulders and arms to make longcoats/robes.

I love warlocks and farseers fluff wise but some of the models disappoint me because most haven't been updated since 2nd ed. Don't get me wrong, I love my 2nd ed miniatures, especially my eldar, but they are wicked hard to convert. Since my army is Exodites I have to convert just about everything, including my warlock squads. I'll not post them here, but you can check my gallery for the models I put together using Dark Elf, High Elf, and Eldar bits with GS runes. They get paint next week.

Are there pics in your gallery?

Yeah, I've got a few pics in my gallery but I'll put one up here. High Elf heads, High Elf weapon arms, High Elf Spearmen legs and Dark Elf chest and cloak. The arms are magnetized so I can pick and choose between shuriken pistols, swords, and spears. Please remember that these are exodite warlocks, so they're not modelled along craftworld lines. The addition of the shuriken pistols takes the fantasy edge of of them.



Daba, if you like fighty exarchs, check out my Cinematic Exarch Council. It's a response to the Movie Marines list. Check it out here.

They look OK, but they're not the Guardians with GS cloaks that you said could make good-looking warlocks. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I think it would be a lot more effort than you're claiming.

willydstyle wrote:They look OK, but they're not the Guardians with GS cloaks that you said could make good-looking warlocks. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I think it would be a lot more effort than you're claiming.

Sorry but who said it was less effort? I said three times cheaper. How well they turn out depends on you but a passable warlock take very little time with practice as all you need to do is a a cloak and sword ... this won't get you a warlock with all the detail but from a gaming perspective it'll look fine on the table.

Now if you want to make a good looking warlock you add the armour and robe on as in this tutorial http://www.sciborminiatures.com/en_,sculpting.php?id=571

Honestly, im not even an Eldar player, but I see a lot of wierd things with them.

Eldar Aspect Warriors are no doubt more skilled than marines, shouldn't they behave so?

EX.

Swooping Hawks - AWFUL! Do you really think that eldar give them elite troopers imperial guard grade lasguns? Uhh no. Make them a Higher Strength or Lower AP, and Assault 3 or 4. Also, hawks should be BS5 Exarch BS6.
Spiders - I think giving spider template or blast weapons would be great. Again, BS5 : BS 6 Exarch
Dark Reapers - Now these guys should seriously be able to shoot well!!! BS5 or 6 : BS 6 or 7
Striking Scorpion - WS5 : WS6
Banshees - Same as above
Shining Spears - Same as above and needs a CC weapon
Fire Dragons - BS 5 : BS 6 Exarch
Dire Avengers - Same as above

Now having pheonix lords being able to make "Cults" of their armies would also be a great idea. Take Maugen'Rah and get Dark Reapers as troops! And guardians are moved to elites.

Also, guardians need to not be so crappy. Eldar = Advanced Alien Race and they are as well armored and skilled as a Guardsmen? Not even as good as a stormtrooper or Veteran thats been alive for say 40 years compared to the Eldars 1000... I think that Guardians need better weapons (18") and that they should be tougher or faster! Make them be able to fleet and shoot!

Eldars vehicles are to expensive.

I also think that Wraithguard are to overpriced. Give them something else! Maybe giving them FNP or a PW in CC would help justify them.

Vipers = Need to be like Attack Bikes.

Avatar = Immortal Warrior

WillyD - that's true, they're not gaurdian locks, but I did indicate that in the post with the pic (they're NOT craftworld eldar...).

However, the same principle applies: use GS for the runes and robes. Making robes isn't that hard, but like anything, it takes practice to look good. The scibor mini tutorial is a simple and effective way to make a plain robe look awesome.

The bits that I bought to make my models cost me around $10. I didn't use but a fraction of the GS I get in a pack to make the three molds I used for the rune armor. Tack on the cost of magnets for list customization and I might have spent $12-15 tops. It works for me.

Was looking through the codex again and it struck me: the Eldar have 5 elite choices(one of which can instead be a troops if its a full squad), 6 Heavy choices and only 4 fast attack choices. Four fast attack choices for what is supposed to be one of the most mobile armies in 40k. Hmmmmm. Plus one of the four is our hawks, argueably the worst unit in the entire eldar codex.

In the IG codex their walkers are a fast attack choice, wouldnt it make a lot of sense to move the war walkers from heavy to fast attack?


The eldar have several excellent choices for elites, their troop choices arent bad and the heavy choices are great. As it stands right now tho the fast attacks are by far the weakest area in the codex. Hawks are extremely limited, vypers are so fragile they are almost throw away units, shining spears are fun but very fragile for their points. Warp spiders arent bad, but having one not bad fast attack choice for an army reputed to be fast and flexible ... not so good.

Changing war walkers to fast attack would be a nice move, plus I would REALLY prefer to sprinkle in a few walkers with left over points instead of add a few vypers.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Was looking through the codex again and it struck me: the Eldar have 5 elite choices(one of which can instead be a troops if its a full squad), 6 Heavy choices and only 4 fast attack choices. Four fast attack choices for what is supposed to be one of the most mobile armies in 40k. Hmmmmm. Plus one of the four is our hawks, argueably the worst unit in the entire eldar codex.

In the IG codex their walkers are a fast attack choice, wouldnt it make a lot of sense to move the war walkers from heavy to fast attack?


The eldar have several excellent choices for elites, their troop choices arent bad and the heavy choices are great. As it stands right now tho the fast attacks are by far the weakest area in the codex. Hawks are extremely limited, vypers are so fragile they are almost throw away units, shining spears are fun but very fragile for their points. Warp spiders arent bad, but having one not bad fast attack choice for an army reputed to be fast and flexible ... not so good.

Changing war walkers to fast attack would be a nice move, plus I would REALLY prefer to sprinkle in a few walkers with left over points instead of add a few vypers.


Sliggoth

It makes sense for war walkers to be fast attack, but they have so much damn firepower it just wouldn't be practical, because they don't have their weapons twin-linked, one unit of 3 could throw 6 scatter lasers worth of firepower... Imagine 4 units of 3 thats 12 in all, throwing 24 (24*4 = 96 shots!) scatter lasers into the enemy... or if you can pay the cost, 24 bright lances or 24 EML's! Then back that up with 3 fire prisms or something like that, and you will decimate armies. (btw, if the Eldar were to shoot 24 scatter lasers at an ork horde, 40 would wound... You are literally wiping out 2 mobs from the table with one turn of shooting... and you could also factor in guide and doom)

Then, shoot your 3 fireprisms with their ordinance and you could feasibly take out around 60+ orks in one turn, more if you troops get in the action)

Making War Walkers FA would make Vypers useless. Maybe Vypers should get 11 front armor and the same special rule that WS have. It would certainly make them a bit more usable, even with a point increase.

EasyE wrote:Making War Walkers FA would make Vypers useless. Maybe Vypers should get 11 front armor and the same special rule that WS have. It would certainly make them a bit more usable, even with a point increase.

make Vypers 2 wound jetbikes (with 2 riders) would work much better. Fire every thing with a 12" move or 24" turbo boost

Basically like the large SM bike? Interesting.

Sliggoth wrote:Was looking through the codex again and it struck me: the Eldar have 5 elite choices(one of which can instead be a troops if its a full squad), 6 Heavy choices and only 4 fast attack choices. Four fast attack choices for what is supposed to be one of the most mobile armies in 40k. Hmmmmm. Plus one of the four is our hawks, argueably the worst unit in the entire eldar codex.

In the IG codex their walkers are a fast attack choice, wouldnt it make a lot of sense to move the war walkers from heavy to fast attack?


The eldar have several excellent choices for elites, their troop choices arent bad and the heavy choices are great. As it stands right now tho the fast attacks are by far the weakest area in the codex. Hawks are extremely limited, vypers are so fragile they are almost throw away units, shining spears are fun but very fragile for their points. Warp spiders arent bad, but having one not bad fast attack choice for an army reputed to be fast and flexible ... not so good.

Changing war walkers to fast attack would be a nice move, plus I would REALLY prefer to sprinkle in a few walkers with left over points instead of add a few vypers.


Sliggoth

You're not taking into account that most of the Troops have fleet (making them faster assaulters) or that almost all of their vehicles are fast skimmers, making them the fastest mech army out there. Moving those to FAwould just make it hard for the Eldar players choose which of say 8 FA choices they got to use.

Looking at Heavies:
- War Walkers are Heavies, that's the most natural place for them.
- Fire Prism stays heavy, having only one function.
- Falcon should move to a Dedicated Transport, like the SM Razorback
- Heavy AGPs should be Heavy, but not take a FOC slot if Guardians are taken.
- Wraithlord should move to Elite, like the SM Dread

Of course, this overloads the Elites, but that's because Eldar Elites are a mess. Eldar Elites should be Wraithlord, Wraithguard, Harlequins, & Rangers - specialist support. "Elite" Aspects should move to Troops.

Eldar have 4 fast attack choices, thats the same number of choices that orcs get....and far fewer than IG or marines have. If eldar had 8 choices then this wouldnt be an issue.

THAT is why I was suggesting the move to the FA slot. Well that plus the fact that fast attacks are the weakest area in the eldar codex. HQs, eldar have several great choices, same with heavies. Elites the eldar again have many good choices, and while eldar troops arent very tough both BA and rangers have their moments.

Few eldar lists dont use some of our elites and heavy selections, but its far rarer to see an eldar list use a fast attack choice.

And actually, the most natural place for walkers would be fast attack, they are scouts after all.

Most of the eldar units having fleet meant something back before run was in the game, now it really only matters for harlies and banshees.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Looking at Heavies:
- War Walkers are Heavies, that's the most natural place for them.
- Fire Prism stays heavy, having only one function.
- Falcon should move to a Dedicated Transport, like the SM Razorback
- Heavy AGPs should be Heavy, but not take a FOC slot if Guardians are taken.
- Wraithlord should move to Elite, like the SM Dread

Of course, this overloads the Elites, but that's because Eldar Elites are a mess. Eldar Elites should be Wraithlord, Wraithguard, Harlequins, & Rangers - specialist support. "Elite" Aspects should move to Troops.

I think if the designers at GW followed this template exactly... then we'd have a much better Eldar codex.

The only thing i'd honestly change is how fleet works for Eldar.

Give Eldar a special fleet or whatever because at the moment fleet on the majority of Eldar units is useless, why would dire avengers ever need to go into combat after running on any regular basis?

possibly allow them to run in the assault phase if they dont assault.
could make for some interesting tactics.

its only a small change but the uselessness of fleet on the majority of Eldar units has annoyed me

could change fleet from the shooting phase, to the assault phase

I must admit i haven't read all the pages but i'm sort off surprised by some of the 'wishes' for the new codex. Its almost like some of the posters believe the eldar are weak compared to other races. Not too long ago a friend of mine showed me the results from one of the biggest tourney's around (forgot the name) and the top ten was dominated by eldar chaos and orks with about 3 eldar armies in the top five. Spacemarines didn't come up till spot 30 or something. Overall i'd say the Eldar are totally uber! Yes waveserpents are expensive but hey they fly over everything, they move up to 24(!) inches, meltaweapons are ineffective (or as effective as a lascannon). generaly speaking 4th edition eldar sweep basicaly anything.
Now don't get me wrong: I would love for the solitaire character to return (as i'm an old 2nd or 3rd edition player myself at least there were no grav-tanks around). Also the gaurdians would be more fun and useful if they were allowed the D- vibro cannon Heavy weapons I guess an extra troop choice wouldn't hurt either (maybe bring back some exodites). Perhaps a similar setup as the new IG would make it possible to take a phoenixlord as an aspect upgrade so you wouldn't only field the farseer. That being said i don't see a lot of armylists revolving around the same priciples. Some are seercuncil orientated, others prefer the autarch (which was IMHO a lame addition), jetbikes or lots of scoring guardians. It doesn't appear to me that there is basic eldar army that 'wins all'. On the contrary lots of diferent combo's are possible. Well we will just have to wait and see when it comes out. Anybody knows when its coming?

Greetz Uddhava

Eldar are fantastic, I just feel that Fleet makes no sense for the majority of Eldar units

Most of my objections are for the poor fluff to rules representation.

Exarchs should be some of the fighiest guys in the Galaxy. I would advocate IC Exarchs, removing the Exarch option from the Aspects (and/or making one a sergeant figure, which the Exarch is NOT).

What I would do: Aspects - Squad based Exarch powers just become squad upgrades.

Exarch - 1 per Aspect taken, must be the same aspects and comes with the gear and upgrades purchased for the squad. A WS/BS6 2W 3A IC character, sort of like an IC version of an Ork Nob. Cannot join non-aspects or other aspects; can join each other forming an Exarch Court (just notmal IC joining squad rules here).

Weapon Batteries - no one uses these because they're heavy support. Put them into the Guardian entry and allow 1 per Guardian squad taken.

Guardians - 18" range catapults because in their current form, even a lasgun is better for them...

Vyper - Currently not worth it, cheapen or improve armour; then allow one to be purchased per guardian jetbike unit to support them or a 1-3 Fast Attack squad. Gains Jetbike assault move.

Dire Avengers - because Guardians get the new catapults, and they are the all round aspect, give them CCW + Pistol or True Grit in the same vein as CSM squads.

Hawks - Need major changes. Give them a 'turbo boost' like bikes (like they had in 2nd, this is quite close). Then have the bombing done by turbo-boosting over units, and hit the squad 1/member rather than blast (encouraging larger squads rather than min-squad). Get rid of the blast for deep strike. Either AP3 or Assault 3 Lasblasters please.

Autarch - Down to WS/BS 5 and given command abilities rather than fighty guys

Menshad Korum - what the Autarch should have been anyway. A WS/BS 6 or 7 W3 Exarch with lots of gear options. A proper combat HQ.

Avatar - Put on par with a Bloodthirster; make it a 300 point model and worth that amount.

Phoenix Lord - These guys are sort of Daemon Princes of Khaine in a way, they should be expensive but super-effective with DP like stats. The background describes them as demigods, who only things like Primarchs have been described as.

combo wrote:Eldar are fantastic, I just feel that Fleet makes no sense for the majority of Eldar units

Well eldar used to be faster when M was still a characteristic. Overall it never hurts to be able to run and charge but yes a lot of the shooty units don't really need it.

Daba wrote:Most of my objections are for the poor fluff to rules representation.

Exarchs should be some of the fighiest guys in the Galaxy. I would advocate IC Exarchs, removing the Exarch option from the Aspects (and/or making one a sergeant figure, which the Exarch is NOT).

Hmm i think that would overpower a lot of things. I like the setup now altho an extra wound wouldn't hurt. But hey Exarchs maybe good fighters but they are NOT nobs, giving them an extra wound seems a bit silly. A higher BS and WS could make sense

Daba wrote:What I would do: Aspects - Squad based Exarch powers just become squad upgrades.

Hmm not really my thing see above

Daba wrote:Exarch - 1 per Aspect taken, must be the same aspects and comes with the gear and upgrades purchased for the squad. A WS/BS6 2W 3A IC character, sort of like an IC version of an Ork Nob. Cannot join non-aspects or other aspects; can join each other forming an Exarch Court (just notmal IC joining squad rules here).

An HQ option for an exarch council would be cool, to backup the autarch

Daba wrote:Weapon Batteries - no one uses these because they're heavy support. Put them into the Guardian entry and allow 1 per Guardian squad taken.

Yes and No. Yes give guardians acces to the special H.weapons, No don't throw the whole batteries idea away. A Vibro cannon army (with 3*3 vibrocannons can be aboslute fun to play with.

Daba wrote:Guardians - 18" range catapults because in their current form, even a lasgun is better for them...

Guardians are just not worth anything at the moment IMHO. upgrading there range is maybe not the best idea tho.

Daba wrote:Vyper - Currently not worth it, cheapen or improve armour; then allow one to be purchased per guardian jetbike unit to support them or a 1-3 Fast Attack squad. Gains Jetbike assault move.

It maybe expensive and quick to die but it is a skimmer so flatout for that 3+ save! The assault move would be cool

Daba wrote:Dire Avengers - because Guardians get the new catapults, and they are the all round aspect, give them CCW + Pistol or True Grit in the same vein as CSM squads.

Nah i like them as they are now. Improved gaurdians and bladestorm, these guys rule. There is enough CC to go around in the codex anyway

Daba wrote:Hawks - Need major changes. Give them a 'turbo boost' like bikes (like they had in 2nd, this is quite close). Then have the bombing done by turbo-boosting over units, and hit the squad 1/member rather than blast (encouraging larger squads rather than min-squad). Get rid of the blast for deep strike. Either AP3 or Assault 3 Lasblasters please.

A bit improved weaponry yes

Daba wrote:Autarch - Down to WS/BS 5 and given command abilities rather than fighty guys

Dunno... the farseer is allready a supporting Character but then i don't like the autarch (the name alone) anyway

Daba wrote:Menshad Korum - what the Autarch should have been anyway. A WS/BS 6 or 7 W3 Exarch with lots of gear options. A proper combat HQ.

No idea who Menshad Korum is

Daba wrote:Avatar - Put on par with a Bloodthirster; make it a 300 point model and worth that amount.

Hmm he seems fine as it is although EW would be awsome

Daba wrote:Phoenix Lord - These guys are sort of Daemon Princes of Khaine in a way, they should be expensive but super-effective with DP like stats. The background describes them as demigods, who only things like Primarchs have been described as.

They allready are expensive, i guess they only miss an invulnerable save. Would be nice to take their aspect a a troop choice if you take one of these guys. I never field them (even though i have Baharroth, fuegan, and asurmen

Greetz Uddhava





Automatically Appended Next Post:
And lastly it would be cool for the craftworld specific things to come back (cheaper warlocks for Ulthwe more jetbikes for saim-hann)

uddhava wrote:
Hmm i think that would overpower a lot of things. I like the setup now altho an extra wound wouldn't hurt. But hey Exarchs maybe good fighters but they are NOT nobs, giving them an extra wound seems a bit silly. A higher BS and WS could make sense

I'm not advocating keeping them at the same cost, but as something like a 50 point guy that you can buy if you've bought the squad. They should be beyond Nobs (actually beyond all but the oldest SM Captains) as they almost are fighting incarnate.

Hmm not really my thing see above

I think it's a bit silly that the ancient aspect warriors who spend more than the lifetime of another race training need a priest to hold their hand to help them move through cover better or defend themselves in CC. The implementation is nice, but would be better as a squad upgrade that is purchased.

Yes and No. Yes give guardians acces to the special H.weapons, No don't throw the whole batteries idea away. A Vibro cannon army (with 3*3 vibrocannons can be aboslute fun to play with.

I'm not advocating removal of the platforms. Basically, like an IG Heavy Weapon squad, you get to take a 3 platform squad for each Guardian squad you take, putting them in Troops so they don't compete with Lords, Prisms and Walkers.

Guardians are just not worth anything at the moment IMHO. upgrading there range is maybe not the best idea tho.

I don't know what else to give them though, without rendering the SC models invalid.

It maybe expensive and quick to die but it is a skimmer so flatout for that 3+ save! The assault move would be cool

4+ save and +1 damage on tables due to open topped makes it a bit vulnerable; nothing drastic here, either down by 5 points or gain front armour 11. The Land Speeder is strictly better, in an army where it's more unusual and helpful an, and even that isn't a great must have choice in that book.

Nah i like them as they are now. Improved gaurdians and bladestorm, these guys rule. There is enough CC to go around in the codex anyway

2 S3 attacks won't make them a good CC option, but better and more suitable as an 'all rounder'; Guardians can be Catapults or 2 S3 attacks; Avengers are all round, cost more but have both.

Dunno... the farseer is allready a supporting Character but then i don't like the autarch (the name alone) anyway

I feel reluctant just to pluck him and replace him with the Menshad Korum; I would focus his powers differently to a Farseer; he's more of the in-between choice.

No idea who Menshad Korum is

What the Autarch should have been; the original multi-path Exarch who was awesome.

Avatar

Hmm he seems fine as it is although EW would be awsome

I just think all 'greater daemon' types should really rock the field, being a huge chunk of your army and being worth it.

They allready are expensive, i guess they only miss an invulnerable save. Would be nice to take their aspect a a troop choice if you take one of these guys. I never field them (even though i have Baharroth, fuegan, and asurmen

Greetz Uddhava

For their price, I would expect S/T5 and 4 wounds with maybe a 5+ inv save like a DP. They are described in the same vein as primarchs so I would expect them to be awesome.

Anyway, thanks for reading.

my idea/wishlist for next codex....

Make warlocks IC's - and instead of making them sort of farseer-jr's into the offensive aspect of the seer path - seers who wish to not defeat their enemy, but utterly destroy and kill them. Each farseer HQ selection allows the purchase of .... up to 5 IC warlocks. WS/BS 5, S/T 3, W3, I 5, A3 Ld10

Make the warlocks the front-line psyker command/combat leaders. Non-aspect squads they join become stubborn.

Farseer powers can be targeted as normal, or target a warlock within LoS. powers targeted at a warlock affect all units within 6" of a warlock. So, fortune across table from a farseer to a warlock means the guardian squad he is attached to and the guardian squad next to him both gain fortune. Warlock powers.... probably remain the same.

Points cost increase for warlock would be necessary.

Autarchs become command units, not combat.

WS/BS 4, S/T 3, W3, I4, A2, Ld 10.
Armies including an autarch and a farseer allow for several changes to reserves. the autarch may add 1 to the reserves die, the farseer may pass a psychic test to reroll a reserves die - including the outflank sides roll, but not DS. Armies including an autarch and a farseer may also roll to steal back the initiative.

If the autarch is within 6" of the farseer, and BOTH models have LoS to a target friendly unit, the farseer may pass a psychic test to increase the initiative of the target unit by 1 in an assault. (this can be done at any time, but ont once per squad per assault - no stacking,)

Since it might be unbalanced to make an army with an autarch + farseer + warlocks, make the warlocks selectable if a farseer is chosen, but also take up an HQ slot themselves.

just some ideas.

I like the exarch-council idea for a replacement to the seer council, very fluffy for the craftworld's elite to protect the farseer.


edit for some more ideas.

warlock prevents wraithsight at 6", farseer at 12", avatar at 18"

Why would anyone want to make Exarchs 2W ICs? Having the IC special rule is a hindrance in most situations, especially for units that aren't very tough on their own.

If you were to give them 2W it would make them better though, as they'd be more resilient to hits that are allocated to them.

I sort of think as exarchs as the opposite of ork nobz - ork nobs get bigger tougher and stronger with experience, exarchs get faster, better, and more skilled.

exarch = + ws/bs, + a, + I, and + wargear, basically what they are now, but if made into ICs, moreso.
6/6/3/3/1/6/3 and a save as-aspect

I just don't fall into the "all Eldar need higher stats" camp I guess.

An exarch is already as skilled as the best non-special characters in many elite armies.

Aspect warriors are as skilled as Space Marines, who are supposed to be super-human Gods of War, who literally practice battle for their entire lives.

Aspect Warriors, contrary to popular opinion, do not practice battle their entire life, or even all the time that they are on the Path of the Warrior. The Eldar codex even specifies that when they are not in battle, they live much like the other citizens of the craftworld.

For them to be as good as a Space Marine means they're pretty damned good.

I can get on board with that logic. The current profile (assuming no more codex creep from any other codec) makes sense, given that reasoning. The only way I would change exarchs then is their wargear - this is like, junior phoenix lord stuff here, relics of the aspect shrine. Make exarch councils be bodyguards for a farseer (can take them much like the warlocks can be taken now) with variable wargear, invuln saves, etc - they can mix and match aspects, etc.

I could see serious problems with this idea of course.... a whole squad of DR exarchs and crackshot? ... restrict it by the aspects actually taken in the army - 2 exarchs for each squad, or some variant on that.

edit: Also, I would like to see a very clear psyker-bent to the entire army - as per fluff, every eldar can manipulate the warp to a degree, every single eldar's spirit is actually powerful enough to exist outside of its physical shell, that should be reflected in the army list. As it is now, eldar are hardly more psker-oriented than any other army, with only one true psyker unit. warlocks hardly count, since their 'powers' are basically wargear.

Hmm, I'm all for a variety of Exarch Wargear... but they already get special issue weapons, such as the Dragons Breath Flamer, Tempest Launcher, Spinnerette rifle, etc. etc. which could be seen as "relics of the aspect shrine."

Having them as a 2W IC is because I don't see them hiding behind squad members when fighting. They might need an invulnerable save though, is they could be vulnerable there. Note I'm seeing them as 50+ point models here, not the current 24 point one.

The autarch at WS/BS6 makes no sense (as he's no longer a Menshad Korum or Pirate Lord), while the exarch at WS/BS5 is underwhelming for their fluff.

The reason Aspects get the same as Marines is twofold: Eldar are more naturally inclined as a fighting race (note that in some of the fluff excerpts, a Warlock muses how eager even the non combat path people want to go to war) and are physically superior in terms of senses (as opposed to strength). Secondly, they live a lot longer so may be training more than several lifetimes of a similar trained human. From that, I would say that WS/BS 4 is correct, and they shouldn't get 5.

Exarchs on the otherhand, do fight all the time, live longer (possibly immortally, as their experience lives on after they die). I only expect Chaos Lords or their ilk to be equal to them in combat. They have huge amounts of stacked experience, the supernatural ability of being a suit full of souls (ie warp energy).

This could make them stronger or tougher too, which would be the extra W and A.

edit: Also, I would like to see a very clear psyker-bent to the entire army - as per fluff, every eldar can manipulate the warp to a degree, every single eldar's spirit is actually powerful enough to exist outside of its physical shell, that should be reflected in the army list. As it is now, eldar are hardly more psker-oriented than any other army, with only one true psyker unit. warlocks hardly count, since their 'powers' are basically wargear.

One thing here is the way Aspect Armour works: it reacts to the psychic impulses of the user and mimics the motion of them exactly like Power Armour.

Just because you're not an IC doesn't mean you're not at the front of a scrum. In fact, if an exarch had IC status it would make it easier to block the exarch off and prevent his attacks.

Couple that with the fact that a T3 W2 IC would get beat down by tactical marines on even slightly bad rolls, and you'd create a very fluffy unit that no competitive player would ever use.

Anyways, I think one thing that hasn't really been discussed is the Farseer.

Currently, there is only one type of Farseer, and I think that there should be more to emphasize different aspects to the path of the seer.

All types of farseers would have access to all the standard psychic powers, but with some bonuses.

A Bonesinger would count as a spiritseer for purposes of wraithsight checks, and as well any wraith-construct units within 12" would gain the fleet USR.

A Runeseer would have a 3+ invulnerable save, and would have Runes of Fate: add 6" to the range of any psychic test made by the seer.

A Warseer's witchblade or singing spear would count as a power weapon, and would let you re-roll the dice when attempting to seize the initiative.

The thing about Farseers is they are seers that are specialised in manipulating and predicting fate (mostly); perhaps those three should be alteranatives or 'master warlock' archetypes? (Warlocks are seers too, they are the ones use their powers for fighting, so apart from the bonesinger they both fit)

Those seers are quite cool, though I could see the Bonesinger getting some unique powers that repair vehicles too.

EDIT: I get your point about them being fluffy but weak.

What I propose for that is include a 'junior' exarch or squad leader who has some of the Shrine gear options (that the Exarch allows, so not all of the stuff) and basically is similar to the current Exarch but without the powers (which mostly are now squad powers).

The 'senior' Exarch is an IC that can be bought for the squad, but you can detach them into an Exarch council. Maybe give a 5+ dodge save like the assassins (who are similar) to stop them being too vulnerable, while still being a T3 unit?

Falcons and Fireprisms:
Eldar skimmer deployment options similar to those of the Valkyrie: Standard deployment or some sort of speed drop. Alternatively they should have the ability to deploy and assault as if open topped. These were historically the fastest transports in the game. Make it worth it. Additionally give them the ability to again fire all weaponry at 12”.
EDIT: agreed that eldar vehicles or at least falcons, prisms, and Vypers should be BS4.

Eldar Vypers should have some sort of pop up attack-either 2nd ed version or akin to the jetbike version. This will put them in line with the lethality of their Epic cousins.

Change spider weaponry to a str 5 template attack. Remove the lost in warp rule. Its
ancient and Tau can do the same thing now.

Allow the use of Phoenix Lords or a similar IC to permit the use of that aspect warrior type as troops. Alternatively adjust so that the list may either be a strike force or a guardian based force. If a strike force no guardians are permitted but all aspects count as troops in addition to their other locations. Its nuts that they are espoused as being a dying race and surgical, but you get faced with the equivalent of shopkeepers when their fluff is predominantly strike forces.

Some sort of gate option akin to the old storm guardian rules (or Dark eldar rules).

Boost eldar artillery range by 20 inches overall to give them some valid long range firepower.

In addition to the other stuff I posted way back...

I would like to see a Warp Spider and maybe even a Shining Spear Phoenix Lord.

willydstyle wrote: stuff

Cool idea, for specialization of the farseer, but I think the specifics need some work.
Keep in mind - the spiritseer upgrade is the upgrade taken to make a unit of 10 wraithguard a troop choice. The wraithsight rule is prevented by being within 6 inches of a friendly psyker - the psyker doesn't need to be a spiritseer.

lol - to cause cries of cheese to resound, make bonesingers confer FNP to wraithbone constructs.

I still support making warlocks an IC HQ choice. Make their powers more beefy, and require a psychic test - their wargear options are oriented towards offense, and don't include the same sort of runes of X as the farseer does.

I also like the idea of synergy between the HQ choices - taking combinations confers benefits that taking 2 of a single type doesn't.

I think I would give every craftworld an IC, cos it seems a bit unfair that only Iyanden and Ulthwe have them. And maybe plastic aspect warriors with kits that have EVERY option in the codex.

18 squids for 6 standard-sized men!??! Phwar...

Gwyidion wrote:

willydstyle wrote: stuff

Cool idea, for specialization of the farseer, but I think the specifics need some work.
Keep in mind - the spiritseer upgrade is the upgrade taken to make a unit of 10 wraithguard a troop choice. The wraithsight rule is prevented by being within 6 inches of a friendly psyker - the psyker doesn't need to be a spiritseer.

lol - to cause cries of cheese to resound, make bonesingers confer FNP to wraithbone constructs.

I still support making warlocks an IC HQ choice. Make their powers more beefy, and require a psychic test - their wargear options are oriented towards offense, and don't include the same sort of runes of X as the farseer does.

I also like the idea of synergy between the HQ choices - taking combinations confers benefits that taking 2 of a single type doesn't.

Use of the power Fortune can already be used to represent repairing constructs. And the Spiritseer upgrade actually does something in the current rules, it allows a construct to be within 12" of the spirit seer to prevent wraithsight checks. I upgrade my storm-guardian's warlock to spiritseer so my Wraithlords don't have to be babysat quite so closely.

Something does need to be done about the wave serpent. The arguement previously has always been that the wave serpent was worth the cost because it was so much faster than the other transports.

Can we compare the serpent to the valk/ vendetta a moment now?

For 100 points the valk carries its troops just as fast (well, perhaps faster since it can deepstrike and is a scout) and packs a far greater punch. Another 10 points adds a pair of heavy bolters.

For 110 points (cheapest weapon load plus the spirit stones to match the extra armor the valk gets) the serpent does have better protection against meltas plus it will treat heavy weapons hiots as str8. Its also a tank so there is some utility for it to tank shock or ram, not a real common occurence tho. The weapon can be improved for a substantial increase in points, but there is no option to buy the best eldar vehicle upgrade, the holofield. 35 points to get up to one twin linked BL.

Then for 130 points we have the vendetta. Turns the valk into a shooting monster with 3 twin linked las cannons. With NO loss of transport capacity.


Either the serpent should be much cheaper or it needs some serious upgrades at its current cost.



Sliggoth

I'm with you on the wave serpents, Slig. I'm thinking 70 points would be nice as a starting cost, maybe even 60. This would help to offset the high cost of the weapon/vehicle upgrades that make the serpent more useful.

I'd also like to see the serpent made available to more models or see a new Venom (ala the new Storm landspeeder) for small aspect squads, pathfinders, warlocks or harlies.

Wave serpents should be alot cheaper or have vectored and star engines for free. Shuriken cats should be 24 inches. Guardians get one shot DA get two shots. Guardian armor should have 4+ save. All shooting aspects get +1 BS and CC aspects get WS +1 and Initiative +1. Hawks Lasblaster should be S4. Warwalker BS4. Bring back Dreadnaught.

Nothing!
They are so beautiful! In every single way! (sniffle) Rulebooks can't bring them dowwwn!