I've done a ridiculous amount of number crunching for the IG and come up with a "core list" so to speak that is just grand for taking on any number of opponents, but primarily focused on crushing the current metagame kings: Daemons, Lash/Oblit spam, Eldar Bikes, Nob Bikes. Because if you can beat these guys, you can beat anyone, right? Yeah, pretty much.

Company Command Squad + Astropath + Officer of the Fleet
110 pts

Psychic Battle Squad (7 psykers) + Chimera
145 pts

DH Inquisitor + 2 Mystics
32 pts

Hydra Flak Tankx3
225 pts

Vendettax3
390 pts

Total: 902 pts

902 points that counter the main strengths of each "top list" while allowing enough points and slots to let you customize however you want. Fill with Russ tanks, fill with Hound tanks, fill with guys or vets or conscripts or whatever, it'll be effective. Some lists will be more effective than others, and some will be more or less easy or interesting to play than others. This is an optimized template to build around; personalize it however you want.

Against Daemons:
I'm working on the assumption that you've taken at least one Leman Russ with plasma sponsons. The variety is irrelevant as long as you've got one with plasma sponsons, although blasts are more effective than shots at just about any point level (I strongly favor the Demolisher or Plasma Executioner).

The high points of the list are that demons cannot deep strike near you (mystical kapwn), and they can't rely on 75% of their army on turn 2. For two turns, 100% of your army shoots at 50%-62.5% of their army, and they either choose to die on arrival or footslog for 2 turns.

What about Kairos Daemonbomb? If Kairos takes a wound, he has to make a Ld test or "die". On the turn he arrives, shoot him with the Hydras and, if necessary, the Vendis. It's a statistical near-certainty that you will deal at least 1 wound to him even past his 3++ reroll. When you have a psychic squad that can reduce his leadership to 2, wave bye-bye to the 333 point chicken as he flies back off the board.

To review: Penalizing reserves and ability to shoot deep strikers on landing > deep striking armies that need good reserve rolls. 333 point lynchpin models don't work when they "die" after taking 1 wound.

Lash/Oblit spam:
The CCS and Mystics force the Oblits to stay on the table which guarantees they're shooting with lascannons instead of meltas for the entire game. Unless, of course, your buddy is willing to Run his oblits. If you're going first, put everything on the table and vaporize the biggest Oblit squad with the Vendis. If you're going second, leave Vendis in reserve and bring them on with a 3+ to vaporize the biggest Oblit squad. Even if they're in cover, you will do 2.8 wounds on average. Cripple his rhinos or kill the DP with the hydras and then just play keep away because there's nothing in your core that's lashable or worth lashing. CCS can hide out of sight pretty easily, and the Inq+Mystics can hide ridiculously easily behind tanks. Park the Chimera sideways in front of the Hydras to completely obscure at least 1; due to allocation rules, if you conceal 100% of the facing of one vehicle, then you can claim a 3+ cover save on any one shot that hits the squadron. Is it cheese? Who cares, it's not illegal, and you're playing a Lash+Oblit cock anyways. If his Lasher is a sorcerer in a non-fearless unit, hit them with the psykers to drop their leadership to 2 and kill just enough to force a leadership/fallback roll. Now you're the dick throwing his sorcerer off the table.

To review: AV12 TL Lascannon Platforms with scout > T4 lascannon platforms with S&P. Cover and allocation cheese in vehicle squadrons > gunline.

Eldar Bikes:

This is the hardest one to beat, in my opinion. It's going to require more ability on the part of the IG player, and I would definitely suggest taking a DH Inq Lord instead of the basic Inq to get a psychic hood. Limiting rerolls and ignoring modifiers are going to be what wins you this one. Hydras ignore bike cover saves and SMF and Vendettas will pummel to death any skimmer that *doesn't* move fast. You can actually use Eldar vehicle mobility against them by forcing your enemy to keep moving around in order to limit the horrible things you can do if he stands still. It'll be a hard fight, but an even fight, which is more than most armies can say fighting speedy Eldar.

To review: The strengths of Eldar are [choosing when to apply] speed and rerolls. Vendettas force their skimmers to keep speeding, and Hydras negate skimmer cover. If you do choose an Inq Lord, you can further negate Fortune rerolls. Good luck!

Nob Bikes

It's a one dimensional army based around wound allocation and winning close combats. IG can smash them so hard they won't even be in the metagame in a year. Vendettas shoot a squad. 5.6 shots wound. One will be put on the Warboss, the others will be put on throwaway bikes. Your Vendettas will kill ~2 bikes by themselves; it's up to the rest of your army to kill one more. Now that you've dealt 25% shooting casualties, hit them with the -7 Leadership nuke from your safely ensconced Psychic Choir and watch a 750 point Bike squad run off the board. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. Yeah, some bikes will get to your line, and some of your stuff will die, but again, math and averages are on your side.

Hopefully this analysis is enough to help you out. It's not tailored to take on one list and WTFPWN; it's a take-all-comers that should serve you well regardless of your metagame. If you have suggestions or play experience, please throw them out there because field tests are useful!

Thanks Sour Clams! It will be different in a couple of months when I start to fear the IG.

I'm actually thinking that once we start getting into the refined tournament guard lists (much like we are now with Dual Lash/Nob Bikers/etc. ) we'll be seeing a lot of Dual CCS each with Officers of the Fleet. This may be a YMDC ruling, but I don't see anything in what I've read to say that you can't have a OotF in each CCS and I also haven't seen anything to say that their effects aren't cumulative. -2 from your opponents reserve rolls? That will suck for them. And consequently, to combat those other IG armies out there with this build, you'll also have to take a mandatory 2 Astropaths to cancel out the reserve roll penalty from your opponent.

Sourclams, you are an evil bastard. I appreciate it. A very solid seeming list.

I think you're right on about most of this, but I question the notion that the Hydras are now a "core" unit that belongs in every tournament-style list.

The Hydra is competing directly against the Griffon for a HS slot, and is similar to a 75 point 3x AC squad which counts as troops. These units obviously don't have the Hydras 72" range or anti-skimmer abilities, but they do have other advantages that make them useful against a wider range of enemies.

The Hydra is a neat unit, and I plan to proxy one and test it, but it's not clear to me that 3x Hydras are mandatory, or even particularly wise.

Nob Bikes

How about 3 Manticores shoot a squad? 3x D3 insta-killing AP4 pie plates should annihilate them all in one go.

I hear what you're saying. I've had the exact same thoughts myself. Here's why I came to the conclusion I did:

AC squads cost the same amount, have bad leadership that barely benefits from orders, and die just like normal infantry, worse with 2 wound models against high T. The strength of the Guard in 5th is that you don't need to make a single unit vulnerable to small arms fire if you don't want to. The Hydra also gets a free heavy flamer; AC squads cannot act as counterassault units whereas three hydras tank shocking 30 Orks into a ball are going to kill 30 Orks.

HS slots: You can fit all the tanks you want into 2 HS slots. If you're taking Griffolossus combos, you don't need more than 2. If you're taking Leman Russes, you can't afford more than 2. Filling all 3 slots with infantry-killing tanks will let you OMGWTFPWNBBQ infantry hordes, but you will have problems against light and/or fast mech.

The Hydra is a balanced gun platform. That's why it fits into a balanced list. Thank you for your comments, though, I'm certain there's a lot of people on the fence about the Hydra.

How about 3 Manticores shoot a squad? 3x D3 insta-killing AP4 pie plates should annihilate them all in one go.

Manticores would fit very well into the 900 point core. But taking 3 at the exclusion of any other Heavy slot? What happens if you don't get first turn? Bikes turboboost to within your 24" kill bubble and... what? They're also harder to hide and therefore easier prey for a single shot than partly obscured vehicle squadrons.

But taking 3 at the exclusion of any other Heavy slot? What happens if you don't get first turn? Bikes turboboost to within your 24" kill bubble and... what? They're also harder to hide and therefore easier prey for a single shot than partly obscured vehicle squadrons.

I don't know mate I haven't started making any IG lists yet but the Manticore seems simply insanely good to me.

So put 2 in the list, and let your Vendettas and Hydra battery deal with mech. Is that third Manticore really going to kill so much more than the first two?

This is, after all, a template:

902 points that counter the main strengths of each "top list" while allowing enough points and slots to let you customize however you want. Fill with Russ tanks, fill with Hound tanks, fill with guys or vets or conscripts or whatever, it'll be effective. Some lists will be more effective than others, and some will be more or less easy or interesting to play than others. This is an optimized template to build around; personalize it however you want.

Not to mention the fact that you only get 4 turns worth of firing with the Manticore. I want to pay points for a vehicle that can fire every turn out to the last.

@sourclams - what are your thoughts on the dual CCS I proposed?

I do not think they are "core", primarily because of the Inquisitor Lord with psychic hood, but it's such a small investment with such a significant impact on the armies that do rely on reserves that yeah, if you've got 80 more points to spare.... why not?

Wow, thanks for doing this. I'm delighted to have an in-depth tactical analysis from you.

Eldar Jetbikes have 3+ armor; Hydras don't do anything special to them, as they don't rely on their cover saves against AP4 weapons.

Several of your tactics are relying rather heavily on getting a successful psychic test off via the choir; while this is probable, it's hardly a given.

It's an interesting "core," though. While Hydras aren't optimal in a "take all comers" setup, they aren't so bad/expensive as to seriously handicap the rest of the list; ditto the DH Inquisitor (although sprining for the Inquisitor Lord boosts the costs significantly).

Good point about the Eldar bikes; I'd forgotten that they upgrade the armor save to a 3+. Hydras are still the best long range weapon that Guard have for killing AV12 skimmers that utilize SMF, however.

And yes, one psychic choir has a good chance of passing its test but it's not given. However, I think most people will take 2 or more.

Are there any other benefits to having a psychic choir besides hampering the other player's reserves? I haven't read up on them. I might go up to my GW store later this afternoon and read, but I'd like some of your guys' analyses.

Actually, it's the Officer of the Fleet that gives opponents -1 on their reserves rolls. The psychic choir has two powers - one called Soulstorm that is a shooting attack that is 36", S=# of psykers in the squad, AP D6, Assault 1, Large Blast. The other power is called Weaken Resolve - you choose a unit within 36" and LOS. On a successful psychic test, that unit's leadership is reduced by the number of psykers using the power.

Actually personally I'm not sure if I would want two officers of the fleet. Yes it will keep the opponent off the table longer, but that could really start to hamper you in an objectives mission. I don't know how many draws I've ended up with because something didn't come in until turn #5 and we rolled a one and the game ended. I think it's better to force the enemy to come in a little more piecemeal but not let them keep everything off the table.

In objective missions, there is a downside to running two of them, but frankly, it gives you more time to table what your opponent plays in the first couple turns.

and some armies don't even use reserves.. like me. I should prolly start, since y'know, it takes me like 5-10 minutes to properly deploy my 1500pt list of guard. I need to make wood-base holders for each squad.. that would make things so much easier(off topic, sorry)

but ya, if your opponent knows you have OotF, couldn't they just as easily deploy their would-be reserved units in their deployment turn? I dunno.. I'm just thinking in text here.

Mellon wrote:Sourclams, you are an evil bastard. I appreciate it. A very solid seeming list.

He's not evil.

He's a different kind of evil.

I know. I've played against him. He likes to publicly humiliate me.

Someone in our store got an 'advanced copy'. He has been crunching numbers in multiple spreadsheets like a madman.

ifyouseekamy wrote:but ya, if your opponent knows you have OotF, couldn't they just as easily deploy their would-be reserved units in their deployment turn? I dunno.. I'm just thinking in text here.

Your opponent could certainly deploy their would-be reserved units in their deployment turn....or at least what they can. I mean, look at Drop Pods. They have no choice but to come in from reserves. And for the most part, if your opponent is deploying something they would rather keep in reserve that's more turns for you to shoot at them rather than them assaulting you or hitting you from close range with meltas.

I've come up with a core list that is somewhere around 1395 points of heavy vehicles: 3x LRMBTs 2xDemolisher, 1x Medusa 2xBassies.

Yes, this seems a high point of just core units, but vets are nice and cheap along with HQs.

It seems to me that now that Guard can take an ungodly amount of tanks, it seems logical to exploit this. LRMBTs: Long range support tanks, Demolishers run in there to the opponents 2+ save guys and make them cry, Bassies with Medusa keep the crowd controlled. Bring in the cheapest Troops you can (Veterens in chims) with 2 master of the ordnances, it seems really obvious that this many pie plates being thrown around, someone is going to get hit, and very very hard.

I haven't tried using the Psychic choir because I've never had any psyker models and I hate proxying. Though, they seem an obvious Elites choice against almost any army, the problem I see with them is that they have little effect on fearless armies (Marneus, Daemons, orcs, etc.). I'll have to actually see them played to make a real firm decision, but in theory they seem good.

Someone please bring some good reasoning against why one should not mass tanks in the most cheapest way possible. Thinking about taking Sentinel Squads with Lascannons for 55 each if i recall right.

Personally, I favor AC HWS over Hyrdas.

1. They're scoring
2. They don't take up a Heavy slot, I want Griffions (perhaps w/ colossus), and 3 or 4 LRBT (variants) in 2 squads.
3. They put just as many hits on a target, more if they pass an order
4. They don't have to be grouped up.
5. They can't all be taken out by one melee charge or good round of shooting.

They only real advantage imo is that Hydras are good against Skimmers, but then again, so are normal AC.

To that core list, you could even add conscript squads and congo line them in front of everything to eat assaults. Take the special character (Chenkov, I believe) that allows you to "Send in the next wave!" Give the conscripts fearless, and pull them off the table when they get assaulted opening up whatever unit to a round of shooting.

Nenya97 wrote:I've come up with a core list that is somewhere around 1395 points of heavy vehicles: 3x LRMBTs 2xDemolisher, 1x Medusa 2xBassies.

Yes, this seems a high point of just core units, but vets are nice and cheap along with HQs.

What you've posted is a solid infantry horde deathmurderspam list. What do you intend to do against fast skimmers? You'll have a total of 6 guns, all of which suffer from scatter and no AP1. This means that by necessity you need to fill the rest of your slots with a lot of anti tank that will be equally effective against AV14 and fast AV12. At that point, you've just posted a single list. It's not a terrible list, but mine is more synergistic and easier to customize.

Remember: my purpose in this was to create a template. It's a foundation list that can easily be built off of that will fit into any optimized list.

It seems to me that now that Guard can take an ungodly amount of tanks, it seems logical to exploit this.

I agree.

LRMBTs: Long range support tanks, Demolishers run in there to the opponents 2+ save guys and make them cry, Bassies with Medusa keep the crowd controlled. Bring in the cheapest Troops you can (Veterens in chims) with 2 master of the ordnances, it seems really obvious that this many pie plates being thrown around, someone is going to get hit, and very very hard.

Your assumption is that you're fighting footsloggers. Against land raiders or even basic transports, you suddenly have a lot of problems. 900 points can be customized. 1500 points much less so.

Someone please bring some good reasoning against why one should not mass tanks in the most cheapest way possible. Thinking about taking Sentinel Squads with Lascannons for 55 each if i recall right.

Massed tanks, yes. Massed specialist tanks that can synergize; i.e. some that kill guys, some that kill mech, some that can do both. Having massed guy-killing tanks makes you good at killing... guys.

Likewise, 3 Sentinels with las cost more than 150 points. 1 Vendetta is cheaper, and has TL las and higher armor.

Im sure there are some, this is just a curious query; What rules allow you to take the Demon hunter allied dude & co.

Ooohh.. your command sqaud & DH guys go into the vendettas? That makes more sense.. otherwise thier toast from the first turn.

An eldar seer council with a fortune + warding (the good kind of stones?) farseer.. on a jetbike with lotsa chums - while they wont get a 3+ rerollable, they will get a 4+ rerollable and I wouldnt say you have enough firepower to even cause the two wounds required to force a morale check (which with your primus squad) that will probably fail. But then it might not fail as your psykers may fail thier psychic roll, whens stones are included.

And then either your hydra/russ/vendetta squadren gets charged & you start loosing alot of tanks very quickly. Squadren rules + WS5 SS + rear armor = :(

Ohh ohh now theres a use for swooping hawks! Ooh myy god!! (Anti-vendetta types..methinks? Especially in squadrens.)

I would say it could be a good core aside from the fact that it has no synergy with your troops, as it stands. Having your company command squad in a non-command-vehicle vendetta automatically penalizes your troops.

As I have said many times, it's a template, you could feel free to put your CCS into a chimera instead.

Swooping Hawks will get squashed by Inquisitorial mystics taken via By The Authority of the Immortal Emperor of Mankind rule.

But yes, I agree that Eldar bikes are one of the nastiest lists that exist, and that any IG army is going to have a tough time against them. Inq. Lord and a psychic hood go a long way towards neutralizing them, tho.

Razerous wrote:An eldar seer council with a fortune + warding (the good kind of stones?) farseer.. on a jetbike with lotsa chums - while they wont get a 3+ rerollable, they will get a 4+ rerollable and I wouldnt say you have enough firepower to even cause the two wounds required to force a morale check (which with your primus squad) that will probably fail. But then it might not fail as your psykers may fail thier psychic roll, whens stones are included.

Actually, the bike seer council will get 3+ saves against the hydra's as their bikes give them 3+ armor, as centurion pointed out. The psychic hood on the DH Inq Lord is there to hamper the Eldar's Fortune, which makes the unit alot less tough. Not a guarantee, but the only defense you have really. Also, getting the psychic choir off will be alot harder with the eldar runes of warding.

Basically, if you want to turn this template into a true take all comers, you need to spend the a few more points towards putting down bike seer councils. If I start seeing alot of Hydras in my area, you can bet that my Serpent Mounted council are trading in for bikes!

Razerous wrote:Im sure there are some, this is just a curious query; What rules allow you to take the Demon hunter allied dude & co.

Umm.. Yeah. It seems like a good part of this meta-core-game is based on allied rules providing the backbone. Where are the rules (I didnt notice them when I peeked at the new IG codex) to allow these allied peeps.

If the command squad is in a chimera, thats better but also risky as the sqauds a fair few points. Id maybe suggest camo-netting for such a transport.

The Inquisitorial allies rules are in the Daemonhunters (and Witch Hunters) codex. Until those are updated, any IG or SM army and all their variants (save Dark Angels, I believe) can utilize:

0-1 HQ
0-2 Troops
0-1 Fast
0-1 Elite

from either DH or WH codices.

BoxANT wrote:Personally, I favor AC HWS over Hyrdas.

1. They're scoring
2. They don't take up a Heavy slot, I want Griffions (perhaps w/ colossus), and 3 or 4 LRBT (variants) in 2 squads.
3. They put just as many hits on a target, more if they pass an order
4. They don't have to be grouped up.
5. They can't all be taken out by one melee charge or good round of shooting.

They only real advantage imo is that Hydras are good against Skimmers, but then again, so are normal AC.

I think in friendly games, the difference between AC HWS and Hydras will be minimal. But I think Sourclams is right here - in the tournament scene and among hardcore players, which is currently dominated by Dual Lash, Nob Bikers, Mechdar, and Eldar Bike Spam, the Hydras will do a superior job as it can take away those SMF and turboboosting cover saves.

Of course, if your psyker battle squads manage to get off Weaken Resolve on the Farseer, there's less need for a psychic hood, and you ought to be able to smash the squad when Fortune isn't on. Taking tests on 3D6 is hard, but with two-three squads of battle psykers, there's a decent chance of it going off. And hey, if it fails you only lose one guy!

Death By Monkeys wrote:

BoxANT wrote:Personally, I favor AC HWS over Hyrdas.

1. They're scoring
2. They don't take up a Heavy slot, I want Griffions (perhaps w/ colossus), and 3 or 4 LRBT (variants) in 2 squads.
3. They put just as many hits on a target, more if they pass an order
4. They don't have to be grouped up.
5. They can't all be taken out by one melee charge or good round of shooting.

They only real advantage imo is that Hydras are good against Skimmers, but then again, so are normal AC.

I think in friendly games, the difference between AC HWS and Hydras will be minimal. But I think Sourclams is right here - in the tournament scene and among hardcore players, which is currently dominated by Dual Lash, Nob Bikers, Mechdar, and Eldar Bike Spam, the Hydras will do a superior job as it can take away those SMF and turboboosting cover saves.

Autocannon HWS with the Fire on my Target! order, I reckon, is the way to go.

& by that logic, you can have a lascannon crew (or infantry platoon, or melta vets) that can ultilize those same orders (obviously only one per unit)

Id much prefer infantry to be useful & make use of thier orders rules.. and use units like the banewolf & russes to accomplish things your infantry cant (and to be hardy cool vehicles)

tzeentchling wrote:Of course, if your psyker battle squads manage to get off Weaken Resolve on the Farseer, there's less need for a psychic hood, and you ought to be able to smash the squad when Fortune isn't on. Taking tests on 3D6 is hard, but with two-three squads of battle psykers, there's a decent chance of it going off. And hey, if it fails you only lose one guy!

Weaken Resolve only works until the end of your turn. The Farseer's leadership returns to normal in his turn. Short of killing the Farseer you can't interfere with his casting.

Razerous wrote:Id much prefer infantry to be useful & make use of thier orders rules.. and use units like the banewolf & russes to accomplish things your infantry cant (and to be hardy cool vehicles)

Fast eldar can and will tank shock gun lines right off the table. This is a huge vulnerability of infantry units, and it's why I feel the Hydra belongs in a competitive template: it is the MOST effective counter that IG have to fast skimmers, bar none. Lots of lists will be effective, but hydras are a necessity to be effective against fast eldar.

Added to that they get 3 free heavy flamers for anti-assault work, and hydras return far more bang for their buck than AC squads.

First off. Why the hell have i not found this thread until now. Deathbymonkeys was talking to me like I had seen this, haha.

Good job, sourclams, and thanks. I don't know if you've caught some of my batreps or other discussion about IG lately, it looks like we're all going to be able to get some good lists built with people working the new codex into a good lather.

Ok, I see that you have gone even more top tier matchup specific than I have been going. I like that, it isn't how my brain works, but its a fine way to design a tourney army.

sourclams wrote:Company Command Squad + Astropath + Officer of the Fleet
110 pts

Emphatically, YES!

sourclams wrote:Psychic Battle Squad (7 psykers) + Chimera
145 pts

You make a good case for this unit in your post here, I haven't tried them yet. I haven't needed them yet. But I haven't really faced off against who we are really talking about using them against. I'm going to face off against nob bikes without it, and see if just being mechanized and a good general can stave them off. If I get rocked (my prediction) then including a choir could immediately change that matchup. You'll need a fast vehicle to keep up with the running bikers to make sure that they don't get a chance to regroup once their leadership kicks back up to 9 on their turn.

sourclams wrote:DH Inquisitor + 2 Mystics
32 pts

Haven't faced demons yet with my list. They do intimidate me, but I don't really see how a single 14" bubble of 'don't land here' could really change the game. It's certainly worth 32 points, and it isn't competing in slots. But is it worth the 2 KP? I don't know. You have made your case clearly and I understand what we are weighing here. As always, I'll try it. But only after I've faced demons the old fashioned way.

sourclams wrote:Hydra Flak Tankx3
225 pts

I agree with those that think the hydra is good but might not belong in a template. The hydra has advantages that you've mentioned over the HWS or just a plas/AC line squad. But its disadvantages include eating a heavy slot and not being a scoring unit. It might be better if you've got the slot. But I need my griffons and my russes as well.

sourclams wrote:Vendettax3
390 pts

I have gotten great effects from my valkyries. Burning a heavy slot on hydras and then burning all three fast slots on direct fire might make cutting through 30 man ork units exceedingly difficult. i expect to see a LOT more of them than I do nob bikers. Its possible to buy some more slots by squadroning, but I'd rather find out if I need all three of the vendettas, or if I can swap one or two out for the faster and more anti-horde valks. You had a very specific explanation for them versus nob bikers, but I think a full IG 1750 could force a morale test on a single nob biker unit (even a turbo boosted one) without needing to give up so much. I am completely discounting the vendettas ability to kill the majority of tanks in the game for this discussion, but I take that into consideration when I think about the give/take between valk/vend. It just depends on what the rest of my list is doing.


Fantastic analysis sourclams... thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

BoxANT wrote:Personally, I favor AC HWS over Hyrdas.

1. They're scoring
2. They don't take up a Heavy slot, I want Griffions (perhaps w/ colossus), and 3 or 4 LRBT (variants) in 2 squads.
3. They put just as many hits on a target, more if they pass an order
4. They don't have to be grouped up.
5. They can't all be taken out by one melee charge or good round of shooting.

They only real advantage imo is that Hydras are good against Skimmers, but then again, so are normal AC.

I think in friendly games, the difference between AC HWS and Hydras will be minimal. But I think Sourclams is right here - in the tournament scene and among hardcore players, which is currently dominated by Dual Lash, Nob Bikers, Mechdar, and Eldar Bike Spam, the Hydras will do a superior job as it can take away those SMF and turboboosting cover saves.

I think in friendly games, the difference between AC HWS and Hydras will be minimal. But I think Sourclams is right here - in the tournament scene and among hardcore players, which is currently dominated by Dual Lash, Nob Bikers, Mechdar, and Eldar Bike Spam, the Hydras will do a superior job as it can take away those SMF and turboboosting cover saves.

Raxmei wrote:

tzeentchling wrote:Of course, if your psyker battle squads manage to get off Weaken Resolve on the Farseer, there's less need for a psychic hood, and you ought to be able to smash the squad when Fortune isn't on. Taking tests on 3D6 is hard, but with two-three squads of battle psykers, there's a decent chance of it going off. And hey, if it fails you only lose one guy!

Weaken Resolve only works until the end of your turn. The Farseer's leadership returns to normal in his turn. Short of killing the Farseer you can't interfere with his casting.

Ah! See, this is what I get for not reading the leaked pdf and making comments.

Thanks for the opinions, Shep. I'm checking out your batreps; real field tests are necessary to back up my assumptions based on Theoryhammer.

All of these tactics solely rely upon your opponent playing directly to the strengths of your core list.

Daemons... I would love for my best units not to arrive until the 5th turn of the game. You will have one turn to shoot then I will assault en masse... This will vapourize both mech and foot slogging lists. I have a lot of daemons in my list. My troops will land beside objectives placed in vover and run in with the 2" spread. You will not be able to shoot them all off the table in five turns.

I think the mystics are way overrated. Their typical range is 14". You are going to have to pack your army on the table like a sardine can to keep everything with that bubble... which plays right into the hands of a daemonic assault horde. At least put your mystics in a rhino to help extend their range.

Fateweaver can come in behind another unit for the 4+ cover save. I will take that and drop pie plates on your anti daemon units.

Nob bikers... I start in reserve if you go first. I turbo boost up into your grill if I go first. I will take my two saves per model against your Hydras. If I start in reserve there is roughly a 50% chance both nob squads will come in on the same turn... So the odds are greatly in my favor that both nob units arrive the same turn. Having to shoot at two units cuts your firepower in half. You basically have one turn of shooting before I assault you.

All mech lists except for LR spam are extremely vulnerable to assaults if you are counting on your armor to win games.

G

I don't really know what to say to the pile of nonsense that you just posted.

I would love for my best units not to arrive until the 5th turn of the game. You will have one turn to shoot then I will assault en masse...

Half your army comes on turn 1. If you have the guts to DS within 14" of me, I absolutely destroy that unit on arrival with whatever flavor of pie plate throwing death I fill out my list with.

On turn 2, 1/3 of your reserves come in, and if you try landing close, I shoot you again. Then I shoot the stuff that walked towards me in my actual shooting phase.

On turn 3, 1/2 of the remaining reserves come in. Repeat.

On turn 4, the rest probably comes in. Repeat. That's the strength of IG and this list versus Daemons. You have to fight me piecemeal the whole time. If you don't, my artillery or Vendettas blow away your units on landing.

Fateweaver can come in behind another unit for the 4+ cover save. I will take that and drop pie plates on your anti daemon units.

This is not a psycannon gimmick list. Fateweaver shows up, I shoot him with 9 TL lascannons. If he takes one wound, which is likely on 1/9 wounds, I hit him with my Psychic Choir and he disappears into the warp. He dies if he takes one wound and he's within 36" of my choir. An assault lynchpin cannot function 36" away. I don't know what version of Daemons you play, but you do not have pie plates that can blow through mystics ensconced in AV12 consistently enough to matter.

I think the mystics are way overrated.

I disagree, I don't believe you thought much at all. Inquisitorial Mystics are a 32 point IWIN button against Daemons. Daemons are a premiere first strike assault army. By their very nature Inquisitorial Mystics take that away from them.

Nob bikers... blahblahgarbage

You start in reserve. On turn 2, there is a 2/3 chance that one Nob biker squad comes on. You turboboost and claim a 3+. I shoot you with 9 TL lascannons and deal almost 2 instadeath wounds with that one squadron alone, and it's a 1/5 chance whether one goes onto the warboss. My entire army then deals one more instadeath wound, and the psychic choir force you to take leadership at *2*.

If you go first, you hit my infantry screen and disintegrate them, and then I do the same thing to you again. I can just keep bouncing your bikes back and forth until you run out of bikes or run off the table.

I spent a lot of time on my analyses and indices, and I post here to actually try to help IG players optimize their lists from a mathematical and synergistic basis. I welcome constructive criticism and valuable playtest experience, but if all you've got is poorly thought out anecdotal false garbage, save everybody's time.

sourclams wrote:I spent a lot of time on my analyses and indices, and I post here to actually try to help IG players optimize their lists from a mathematical and synergistic basis. I welcome constructive criticism and valuable playtest experience, but if all you've got is poorly thought out anecdotal false garbage, save everybody's time.

He has spent a lot of time on this.

See...

I told you all...

A Different Kind of Evil.

zannal wrote:So What bikes are you really takeing away the cover save from?
The only bikes that I can think that the Hydra will be good against are scout bikers.
Space marine/chaos bikes have 3+ armor and orks have a perma 4+ due to the smoke screen rules that the bikes give.

The ork bike cover save is just a cover save, it would be removed by anything that removes cover saves.

Double post :(

The hydra takes away the 3+ coversave from going fast, not the 4+ natural save.

tzeentchling wrote:Of course, if your psyker battle squads manage to get off Weaken Resolve on the Farseer, there's less need for a psychic hood, and you ought to be able to smash the squad when Fortune isn't on. Taking tests on 3D6 is hard, but with two-three squads of battle psykers, there's a decent chance of it going off. And hey, if it fails you only lose one guy!

on a PotW attack the overseer kills D3 psykers. If the overseer is dead already, the entire squad takes a PotW attack (poof!).

I recommend taking 9 psykers to shore against this, and to provide a S9 template against fearless armies.

Clams it's time to go back to the drawing board. Sorry for bursting your bubble. Hee!

G

Sorry sourclams but I agree with Green Blow Fly. I just don't see it happening your way with an experienced player on the other side of the board.

Also don't take it so personally. To the world it looks like you are throwing a hissy fit because someone isnt kissing your feet for finding yet another way to kill stuff with stuff in 40k. :/

Then prove me wrong.

Speeding Nobs: 3+ cover save

3 Vendettas: 9 TL Lascannons

Turn 1: You speed Nobz 24"

I shoot you with 9 TL lascannons; 6.75 hit 5.625 wounds. 1 Wound on Warboss, 4.625 on Nobz. After 4+ cover saves, you lose 1/3 Warboss + 1.54 Nobz. It's going to be between 1 and 2 Nob Bikes dead. Now my entire army has to kill only 1-2 more Bikes and I hit you with the Psychic Choir and you run away 35/36 of the time.

T2: Your other Nob Bikes hit half of my layered infantry screen and kill them. (assuming I have 2-4 squads in 2 layers; 20"-40" across the table).

I do the same thing again. Your other Bike squadron rallies and turbos again to get back close. They hit the rest of my infantry screen and kill them.

I just keep doing this and squash you, and this is the best case where you go first and I don't get 2 turns of shooting before you hit my infantry screen.

Prove the math wrong, that's all I ask. You're going to run out of Nobz on turn 3.

Theoryhammer just doesnt work like that man. You cant assume what I am going to do with my army, and you cant assume average rolls. If we are going to do it like this though and I am going first then my deffcoptas turbo in the scout move and assault rear armor with st 8 first turn. There go the vendettas...

sourclams wrote:T
I shoot you with 9 TL lascannons; 6.75 hit 5.625 wounds. 1 Wound on Warboss, 4.625 on Nobz. After 4+ cover saves, you lose 1/3 Warboss + 1.54 Nobz. It's going to be between 1 and 2 Nob Bikes dead. Now my entire army has to kill only 1-2 more Bikes and I hit you with the Psychic Choir and you run away 35/36 of the time.

(Morinic part of my post removed by me)

If you decide to split the Vendettas out of a squadron, this gets a lot worse for the Guard player, as more wounds can be safely allocated to the Warboss before dropping the Nobs themselves.

I have a lot of tricks up my sleeves. Like I shot your tank you are shielding with infantry with a skorcha and then combi charge. There are a lot of factors you are not taking into account. That's why I don't play vassal online... It will never be the same as a tabletop game. Remember that all armies are over hyped when they get their new rules and the real power builds usually come out around 3 months after the release.

G

Assume my infantry screen is actually competent and I know those tricks exist, because I do.

Nob bikers is a 1 dimensional army. Your tactic will inevitably be move as fast as you can and charge because that's all you can do. Anything less and you die to my shooting.

It's a very simple request, just show me how the math is wrong.

The math for the averages is correct, no one is arguing that lol. What we are arguing is how you manage to make the math matter, how you plan on using that on the table. Unfortunately it cant really be argued because as I said before theoryhammer doesnt work. Im also not trying to argue that nobz are auto win vs guard or anything, I am just saying what you have proposed isnt as likely to happen as you think and isnt the auto win solution for guard.

Green Blow Fly wrote:
Nob bikers... I start in reserve if you go first. I turbo boost up into your grill if I go first. I will take my two saves per model against your Hydras. If I start in reserve there is roughly a 50% chance both nob squads will come in on the same turn... So the odds are greatly in my favor that both nob units arrive the same turn. Having to shoot at two units cuts your firepower in half. You basically have one turn of shooting before I assault you.
G

There's actually only a 25% chance that both units come in on the same turn (assuming turn 2). Each one has a 1/2 chance to arrive. The chance to roll 4+ on two separate dice is 1/4. If the Officer of the Fleet is included, there is only 1/9 chance that both will come in on turn 2.

I think what you're forgetting here is the fact that this "core" list that has been posted is only around half of the army. It doesn't include things like the cover-save ignoring artillery pieces that ignore the Nobs armor, cover and FNP that the IG player might chose to field, or any of the LR variants that are sure to be included.

"Theoryhammer doesn't matter"

That's not the point of this analysis. Theoryhammer doesn't matter because there is a discrepancy between real-world performance and theoretical construct. That's why, you're correct, theoryhammer doesn't matter. A better player will beat a worse player with lists that are identical. A worse player will have a chance against a better player if his list is nothing but Land Raiders and the better player has nothing above S7.

What I am doing is to take the random element of player ability out of the equation altogether. What I give is a mathematical stress test that compares the raw advantages of each list. This "core" list targets the weaknesses of the top tournament-level lists. Some better than others, however Nob Bikers are one that IG will beat much more easily than most by targeting the weaknesses of the Nob Biker formation.

this is pure theoryhammer with an unproven codex.

G

And by the way I don't play nob bikers but I am very familar with them.

G

That's a great expression of your opinion but you have nothing that refutes the empirical evidence.

Nob Bikes have multiwound models that take advantage of wound allocation, FNP, and combat resolution.

IG have long range instant death that ignores FNP and largely mechanized lists that ignore combat resolution paired with abilities that attack leadership.

Until you can refute that, please stop posting. I value field tests but your anecdotal shoot-from-the-hip counterpoints aren't valuable.

Nob bikers have four main advantages that make them so resilient: High toughness, two wounds (coupled with allocation rules), portable cover save, FNP.

In all the "beat Nob Bikers" tactical discussions, the main contention was that you had to be able to beat at least two of those advantages to win against them. That was why TS/TH Terminators were considered so good: ignored the high toughness, ignored the cover save, caused instant death and ignored FNP.

From what we can tell about the new IG codex, it appears that the IGs have a variety of ways to circumvent at least two of those advantages.

THe problem with TH/SS terminators is you have to outlive all the PK attacks and make your invuls to be able to do anything useful. Too bad my terminators don't come with Fortune as I can rarely make a 3+ invul.

:(

Um...the TH/SS termies strike at the same time as the PK attacks.

sourclams wrote:That's a great expression of your opinion but you have nothing that refutes the empirical evidence.

Nob Bikes have multiwound models that take advantage of wound allocation, FNP, and combat resolution.

IG have long range instant death that ignores FNP and largely mechanized lists that ignore combat resolution paired with abilities that attack leadership.

Until you can refute that, please stop posting. I value field tests but your anecdotal shoot-from-the-hip counterpoints aren't valuable.

It's well known that nob bikers are resilient to ranged firepower. This includes ordnance. Like I said bfore and has been noted by others your premises are all based on your opponent's making all the wrong moves.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's well known that nob bikers are resilient to ranged firepower. This includes ordnance. Like I said bfore and has been noted by others your premises are all based on your opponent's making all the wrong moves.

G

The differrence here GBF, is that instead of having to kill them all off, thanks to re-rollable leadership 9. IG just has to kill 3 bikers. ANY 1750 army can kill 3 nob bikers even if they turbo boosted in a single round. A list that has strength 8 ordnance, tons of lascannons, large blasts that are ap4 and ignore cover saves, and more heavy weapons than the nob bikers have models, there isn't a problem here.

You can re-roll your leadership 2 all day long, but your unit is running. If IG is in position to escort your units off the table, we are talking about a three turn tabling. I don't see how holding your bikers in reserve against a fleet officer, or turbo-boosting "differently than we'd expect" is going to save you.

My IG list will likely still have a hard time against nob bikers, because I haven't yet included a choir. And I run mostly strength 6 ordnance (although it does ignore cover and a 4+ armor). But a guy that doesn't want to lose against nob bikers with his IG, isn't going to lose against them if he is even remotely aware of how nob bikers work.

Doing anything with nob bikers other than getting as close as possible to the IG army as fast as possible is not some 'tricky' strategy. Its just the nob biker player getting shot at MORE before being taken out by a failed morale test.

Like I said I am not a nob biker player but I am very familar with their central tenets. I think one way to counter the new IG with nob bikers is to drop one one warboss and nob biker unit and replace them with other units that are better at dealing with IG from range. You would have a lot of points to play with and just about everything in the ork codex is cheap so this could go a long way.

The thing about using mystics is that their effective range is only 14". The IG cannot pack everything around this one unit. Why would a daemon army intentionally land all their units within that bubble? A smart player wouldn't. I have played against super shooty Tau with a pure assault daemon army (no shooting in my list) and won. Sure the shooting is strong but a little bit of assault can go a long way against armies like Tau and IG. You can beat these armies with less than half of yours if you know what you are doing.

I'm not a big fan of the math hammer but it has it's place and I respect that but it only goes so far. You can stat an army's capabilities to death and back but it doesn't even come close to telling the whole story... Tactics are where it's at end of the day. Tactics are always stronger than stats in the hands of a capable player.

G

PanamaG wrote:The math for the averages is correct, no one is arguing that lol. What we are arguing is how you manage to make the math matter, how you plan on using that on the table. Unfortunately it cant really be argued because as I said before theoryhammer doesnt work. Im also not trying to argue that nobz are auto win vs guard or anything, I am just saying what you have proposed isnt as likely to happen as you think and isnt the auto win solution for guard.

We're discussing on the internet here, all we have is statistics. We use statistics to analyze the likely outcome of decisions you make during the game. We use knowledge of these statistics in game to affect our decision making. i.e. Do you shoot your single BS3 Lascannon at a Land Raider or Rhino, knowing the statistical outcome of these events greatly informs your decision.

Likewise, you use statistics to inform your army building decisions. "I need to kill Nob Bikers, what is the likely outcome of me shooting 10 Lasguns at them? Not good, what is the likely outcome of me shooting 9 twin-linked Lascannons at them? Likely outcome is that 1-2 Nobs will die. Decision to make, do I include a three Vendetta squadron."

@Sourclaims:The Nob Biker discussion becomes moot when you add a Witch Hunter Inquisitor w/ Divine Pronouncement. If after they break, you have a Guard squad in charge range, there is no need to escort them off the table, they will fail to rally when charged and be wiped out.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Like I said I am not a nob biker player but I am very familar with their central tenets. I think one way to counter the new IG with nob bikers is to drop one one warboss and nob biker unit and replace them with other units that are better at dealing with IG from range. You would have a lot of points to play with and just about everything in the ork codex is cheap so this could go a long way.

Yep. The true nob biker list with nothing but nobs and grots just isn't supported. Take some deffkoptas and some lootas, and you'll have a lot better of a chance of turning off the IG kill combo. But by cutting the nob biker army in half, you've made it a lot less of a shock and awe list versus others. That will make a lot of people happy to face something with a bit more balance.

Green Blow Fly wrote:The thing about using mystics is that their effective range is only 14". The IG cannot pack everything around this one unit. Why would a daemon army intentionally land all their units within that bubble? A smart player wouldn't. I have played against super shooty Tau with a pure assault daemon army (no shooting in my list) and won. Sure the shooting is strong but a little bit of assault can go a long way against armies like Tau and IG. You can beat these armies with less than half of yours if you know what you are doing.

I'm with you here, so far. Adding 2 KP to your army to get a 14" (maybe) bubble of overwatch against two armies just doesn't seem worth it. I'm maintaining my healthy respect for well built demon armies with IG.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I'm not a big fan of the math hammer but it has it's place and I respect that but it only goes so far. You can stat an army's capabilities to death and back but it doesn't even come close to telling the whole story... Tactics are where it's at end of the day. Tactics are always stronger than stats in the hands of a capable player.

I agree. But I disagree that there is much to do tactically with 2 units of nob bikers against a shooty army with a fleet officer. Charge as many units as you can per turn, as early as you can. There will be at least one turn before you can make that charge. If your unit has a high probability of being taken out by a combo in one turn, then you need to break that combo. You can't break a combo by turbo boosting your whole army and saying 'go'.

Demons on the other hand, have tricks and choices to make, and I'd give a lot more respect to their generalship than a biker list.

Green Blow Fly wrote:The thing about using mystics is that their effective range is only 14". The IG cannot pack everything around this one unit.

It's very possible to stack 6 chimera-sized tanks, 3 Vendettas, and 2 Leman Russes inside a 14" bubble. Go set it up on the table.

Likewise, since we're talking about good players who "use tactics!", the IG player can set up a corner castle with the mystics forward in the Vendettas. Line of sight is unimpeded because of the tall flight stands, and you only need one artillery tank out of the squadron within 6" of the Mystical Vendetta in order to launch death. You've effectively doubled the size of the no-drop zone because if Daemons land behind the Vendis, they get eaten by tanks, and if they scatter they deepstrike mishap, so they're forced to land 14+ inches from the Mystical Vendetta and 20+" from the actual castle. On turn 5, after all the daemons are dead, you use superior mobility to contest/claim objectives.

@Sourclaims:

Nice typo

The Nob Biker discussion becomes moot when you add a Witch Hunter Inquisitor w/ Divine Pronouncement. If after they break, you have a Guard squad in charge range, there is no need to escort them off the table, they will fail to rally when charged and be wiped out.

I agree, it's easy to tailor IG to absolutely wipe out Nob Bikers. However a WH Inquisitor disallows the DH Inquisitor, and I find mystics to be more valuable since they basically shut down Daemons and drop Marines. Nob Bikers are a list I don't foresee IG having trouble with so taking even more anti-Nob Biker stuff is unnecessary [in my opinion].

If I know I'm not playing Daemons/Drop marines, though... Witchhammer, baby!

Stop it guys!

I MUST resist adding inquisitorial forces to my lists. To be perfectly honest, the number one reason I don't want to paint any mystics or any witch hunter inquisitors, is that I'm so crazy about collections and completing them.

Rather than just retire the 4 or 5 minis I painted when the new witch/demon/alien hunters books come out, I'd be compelled to 'finish' my witch hunter army (that is comprised of a single model). Or my demon hunter army, that has a single inquis and two mystics.

GW loves me though haha...

sourclams wrote:

@Sourclaims:

Nice typo

My fault, I didn't look close enough at your screen name. Sincerely meant no disrespect.

None taken mate, none taken.

Nice analysis and very close to what I was planning on using as a core to my army.

Can't wait to bring this pain!

I'm pretty sure atleast several IG players have thought of this by now, but one way to half-eliminate everyone's feud with nob bikers is:

since this is just a basic core list(and a very good one indeed, given good circumstances), a good idea I've recently thought is... meat wall

it's pretty much what all IG units do already, but this time, it's 2 seperate squads(or 1 entire, I haven't looking in the dex much for this) of Conscripts, and line them all out directly infront of the entire army, maximizing the 2" space between bases, and put Chenkov in with them.

with this, you'll have 2(or 1) looong, stretched-out line of assault fodder. the reason I say have 2 seperate squads is just incase the opponent brings up 2 squads as well, then they'll still be forced to assault the second conscript squad

and with Chenkov's "Send in the Next Wave," at the end of the assault turn, you can remove all Conscripts as necessary, and since you have all your other guardsmen right there behind where the 'scripts where, there's no doubt that you could lay some massacre on some nob bikers with 30-50 lasguns within 12" (rapid fire) utilizing FRFSRF, that can amount from 90-150 lasgun shots.

and with the psykers dropping their Ld(if I am correct in theorizing this?), the nob bikers will more than likely be forced to fall back with what few they have left.

that right there is just a small-ish squad of Conscripts with Chenkov, and 1 full merged platoon of guard, included into your core list. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that will amount to... let's see.. 25-30 conscripts in total(100-120pts maybe) with Chenkov(150pts???? I dunno how much he costs) and one full platoon of 50, which will prolly be 300-450pts? not counting any HWS yet.

ifyouseekamy wrote:
and with Chenkov's "Send in the Next Wave," at the end of the assault turn, you can remove all Conscripts as necessary, and since you have all your other guardsmen right there behind where the 'scripts where, there's no doubt that you could lay some massacre on some nob bikers with 30-50 lasguns within 12" (rapid fire) utilizing FRFSRF, that can amount from 90-150 lasgun shots.

150 Lasgun shots
75 hits
12.5 wounds
6.25 failed armor saves
3.125 failed Feel No Pain saves
Thats not enough to kill a single Nob biker.

Sad, I know.

Template weapons can target armor and destroy any units any between. IG troops have no defense versus templates. I have a Tzneetch daemon army list I have dubbed the Shake and Bake that will take the wind out of the sails of all new IG lists I have seen so far.

If you pack your army in tight for a 30 point unit I have all the room in the world to land my daemons where I want them.

Nob bikers... Let's take some deff koptas and put outflank to great use. I can counter your theory lists all day long. My comments are based on game play not math hammer.

G

kadun wrote:

@Sourclaims:The Nob Biker discussion becomes moot when you add a Witch Hunter Inquisitor w/ Divine Pronouncement. If after they break, you have a Guard squad in charge range, there is no need to escort them off the table, they will fail to rally when charged and be wiped out.

Wait...So one can Weaken Resolve a dangerous, non-Fearless unit, make it fall back with shooting, and then auto-kill them on the charge? It seems like a good idea. With that in mind, would it be worth it to keep a min sized squad of Roughriders for just that purpose?

GBF. Problem with the outflanking deffkoptas (I think) is that IG can stop reseves coming on if they include certain guys...am I right?

Anyway, I already have a lot of respect for IG, with the new dex and this template to help out. I think my nids are in for a tough time.

^Advisors, mystics, inquisitors, other things that stop outflankers, yadda yadda. Are we all just assuming that the IG lisdt is going to have every anti movement asset in it? Is it also going to have every potential pie plate and lascannon?

Not a dig on you personally Lukus just the theme of the thread.

And as a solution to your stated problem, just turbo in the scout move.

No worries. I'm just slighty concerned about my stealers that use outflank in my nidzilla list...conundrum.

Ive said it before & ill say it again.. decent lists (aside from various special flavours) will invole using troops well. That'll mean having 2 large infantry platoon with heavy weapons (maybe some plasma/snipers) led by a command-chimera-hq. Add in lots of fun armor. Add in some vendettas. Shave off 10 guard or so and load up said vendettas for scoring mobility.

That should come first & base everything around that.

(Or a vet-chimera wall)

(Oooooh thats why hydras are useful. You actually get two hyrdra long ranged autocannons. And thier twinlinked. Riiight. I thought it was just one normal extra-ranged autocannon - all that ignore fancy cover rules.. Hmm.)

sourclams wrote:It's very possible to stack 6 chimera-sized tanks, 3 Vendettas, and 2 Leman Russes inside a 14" bubble. Go set it up on the table.

I am definitely going to disagree with you on this one. The Valk/vend itself is 11" long and has a wingspan of roughly 10" as well. Fitting 3 inside a 14" bubble, while possible, is very tight, and trying to jimmy another 8 tanks inside is even harder. While I can see that it MIGHT be possible to get all these vehicles inside a 14" bubble, you are crammed in so tight that you are going to kill all your firing lanes, and be easy meat for assaulting units. In short, it would be a terrible idea to pack in like that. Furthermore, This requires that you are setting up 29" from your table edge; something not possible in any of the standard deployments on a 4'X6' board. Scooting all the way out to the 24" line, as is possible in spearhead (and DoW, but you cant start with all that on the board in DoW) also makes you terribly vulnerable to assault from reserve units coming in on his table edge, or outflanking. But, lets assume you do get everything inside this bubble, and do roll your average 14" detection range. What are you going to shoot with? Shooting ordinance, especially squadron based ordinance is a terrible idea. Packed in so tight, you are very likely to destroy your own stuff with scatters. Provided you can even draw a LOS through that mess.

Even worse, you dont have the infantry screen you talk about, to prevent your opponent from munching through your tanks. And if you add that in, you are extending beyond your mystic's safety zone, giving your demon opponent a safe avenue into your lines.


Not doubting the Mystiquisitor for it's ability to control a DSing opponent's deployments, in fact, I think that alone is worth 32 pts, probably moreso. I just think its magical thinking to think you can automatically protect your entire army with a gimmicky trick.

SourClams I am loving the detail that you have put into your research and appreciate the time you put into this. I had never even thought about including the DH inquisitor with mystics to help solve some of the problems I was seeing with a couple of the army concepts I have been working on. My only question is how do you plan on protecting both the inquisitor and the CCS?

*passes torch*

*walks away*

PanamaG wrote:^Advisors, mystics, inquisitors, other things that stop outflankers, yadda yadda. Are we all just assuming that the IG lisdt is going to have every anti movement asset in it? Is it also going to have every potential pie plate and lascannon?

Not a dig on you personally Lukus just the theme of the thread.

And as a solution to your stated problem, just turbo in the scout move.

Anti-Movement Assets of Importance:
Officer of the Fleet (-1 Reserves, reroll outflanking rolls): 30 Points
Inquisitor w/ 2 Mystics: 32 Points

62 points buys an awful lot of anti-movement assets. This leaves a lot of room for pie-plates, lascannons, and meltas.

A quick question about Weaken Resolve vs. Orks. I don't have my Ork book in front of me since a friend who is thinking about starting a Ork army is borrowing it.

I have seen a few people on various forums post that they're not sure that weaken resolve works against the Ork leadership rule (LD = mob size). Does anyone have their Ork book handy to see exactly how this is worded?

"Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the Fearless special rule."

"For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilizing the power."

I'd say that the orks will suffer from Weaken Resolve, since they actually replace their "normal leadership value" with their numbers. And they will suffer the same reduction the rest of their turn, no matter if they use their statline Ld or their numbers Ld. So an ork mob (Ld7) of 9 Orks, suffering a -4 weaken would have the choice of an effective Ld of 3 or 5 for the remainder of the turn. An ork squad with 11 or more models won't care much about their reduced leadership though, due to being fearless.

It is not extremely clear cut though, so feel free to bring it to the YMDC-forum.

Mellon, I very much agree with your interpretation based upon the wording you posted. I'm not sure where the confusion was coming from but I have seen it posted enough to feel that is was worth asking.

PanamaG wrote:^Advisors, mystics, inquisitors, other things that stop outflankers, yadda yadda. Are we all just assuming that the IG lisdt is going to have every anti movement asset in it? Is it also going to have every potential pie plate and lascannon?

Well we are talking in a thread about a proposed IG "core" that has most of those things included.

Kind of a weird point, but no one has brought it up: the company commanders "Fire on my target" order (enemies re-roll successful cover saves) work nicely with heavy weapons vs. bikers.

It also interacts in a strange way with Fortune: any given die can only be re-rolled once, regardless of source. So Bikers that make their initial cover save re-roll it from the order, and those that fail don't get to re-roll again. Bikers who fail their initial save re-roll from Fortune, and those that save don't have to re-roll again. Math-wise it's pretty simple -- every initial save gets re-rolled! So, assuming you're AP 3, you've got triple effectiveness against bike councils.

Ketsugami, you are damn clever!

It's such a shame that heavy squads cannot combine, and only have Ld7, so it will not be extremely powerful, but rather useful.

sourclams wrote:

Nob bikers... blahblahgarbage

You start in reserve. On turn 2, there is a 2/3 chance that one Nob biker squad comes on. You turboboost and claim a 3+. I shoot you with 9 TL lascannons and deal almost 2 instadeath wounds with that one squadron alone, and it's a 1/5 chance whether one goes onto the warboss. My entire army then deals one more instadeath wound, and the psychic choir force you to take leadership at *2*.

If you go first, you hit my infantry screen and disintegrate them, and then I do the same thing to you again. I can just keep bouncing your bikes back and forth until you run out of bikes or run off the table.

I spent a lot of time on my analyses and indices, and I post here to actually try to help IG players optimize their lists from a mathematical and synergistic basis. I welcome constructive criticism and valuable playtest experience, but if all you've got is poorly thought out anecdotal false garbage, save everybody's time.

You clearly spent (wasted) a lot of time on this, but in at least this one instance, you don't know what you're talking about. You shoot your 400 points worth of lascannons at the nobs, put one wound on the boss, ID a biker, whatever. Then you blow your "weaken resolve" load, and maybe kill one or two whole bikes with the rest of your army. Guess what? The bikes can still substitute their mob size (probably 7-8 bikes) and use the boss pole instead of their LD 2.

In any case, it's cute that you're pulling out your little spreadsheets and trying to suck the fun out of another army book, but don't throw a hissyfit when folks like GBF poke holes in the powergaming filth - respond to criticism like a grown-up. Maybe you should start planning for when GW pulls the plug on the gimmicky 3rd edition allies BS.

And stop using words like "synergistic", it makes you sound like a tool.

Edit: I'm not sure how the Mob rule works with weaken resolve, actually. Do you substitute the number of orks in the mob for the leadership before or after weaken resolve alters the original leadership value?

Dumbuket: Did you read the discussion on page 3 of this thread? The one about substituting numbers of orks for normal Ld? It seems pretty clear, imho, that even after the substitution the nobz will suffer from weaken resolve.

And please, mind your manners and your language. You are on a discussionboard that is generally pretty free from the usual internet filth. I like it that way. Calling people "tool" and "cute" and using phrases like "Guess what?" is not helping that standard. I really do think you should try to relax on your prestige.

0ldsk00l wrote:

sourclams wrote:It's very possible to stack 6 chimera-sized tanks, 3 Vendettas, and 2 Leman Russes inside a 14" bubble. Go set it up on the table.

I am definitely going to disagree with you on this one. The Valk/vend itself is 11" long and has a wingspan of roughly 10" as well. Fitting 3 inside a 14" bubble, while possible, is very tight, and trying to jimmy another 8 tanks inside is even harder. While I can see that it MIGHT be possible to get all these vehicles inside a 14" bubble, you are crammed in so tight that you are going to kill all your firing lanes, and be easy meat for assaulting units. In short, it would be a terrible idea to pack in like that.

The Valk/Vend are on a 6" tall flying stand with a base that has less of a footprint than a Chimera chassis. You can easily pack in tanks underneath the Valk/Vend hull.

Green Blow Fly wrote:

The thing about using mystics is that their effective range is only 14".

G

Well, mystics actually have an effective range of 4D6, but it's statistically very likely to get 14", which is the average. As such, when using mystics, just assume they will have a 14" range, although 1's will ruin your day and you could get 6's also.

-A.

Where are people getting this idea that Orks have an ability that is better than Stubborn when they're below 11 models?

If Orks have 10 models after an assault and lost the assault by 5, then they're testing at 5 not 10. Subbing does not make their Leadership immune to modification.




Just because the average roll for mystics is 14" does not mean your opponent is going to risk it an DS 15" away. You'd be surprised how many people play it safe and land 25" out.

H.B.M.C. wrote:*passes torch*

*walks away*

You'll eventually get back from that fishing trip.

I like the analysis. I don't like the repercussions, because it means my current army needs a lot of work to be brought up to fighting trim, but I think Sourclams has got the basic idea down pretty well for a pre-release tactica.

As for the whole nob biker things, I think this list gives the IG a punchers chance against them, which is more than they had before or would have with most other lists. Sure, you can tailor a list to beat this one, but isn't that true for nearly any list? Saying you can create a list to beat an all comers list only means that you can spot and exploit a weakness. Sourclams posted a core that was meant to deal with common tournament lists. If you want to knock it down, and I've got no problem if somebody does, you should do so with the standard lists.

Here are my thoughts:

Using Vendettas as your primary lascannon source seems risky. Shaking AV12 isn't that hard (as every eldar player knows), and the Vendetta doesn't have anything to make it more durable. It's a steal for what it does and what it costs, but it's also pretty fragile.

Hydras seem overly specialized to be in a take on all comers list. Mech eldar isn't what it used to be, and the points spent on hydras could be put toward other things. On the other hand, long range S7 firepower isn't bad by a long shot.

I think, rather than a core of many IG armies, you've discovered some of the strongest aspects of the list to build towards a highly synergistic tournament list.

Of course the eldar player knows when you use fire on my target, and if he's smart he'll use his invulnerable save.

Guys - this thread is generating a bit of heat - please keep it polite and attack the argument/theory and not the user...

Polonius wrote:I like the analysis. I don't like the repercussions, because it means my current army needs a lot of work to be brought up to fighting trim, but I think Sourclams has got the basic idea down pretty well for a pre-release tactica.

Thanks.

Using Vendettas as your primary lascannon source seems risky. Shaking AV12 isn't that hard (as every eldar player knows), and the Vendetta doesn't have anything to make it more durable. It's a steal for what it does and what it costs, but it's also pretty fragile.

I don't disagree, however they're AV12 vehicles with twin link all the time for 130 points, which is a very small premium over a regular non-twin link lascannon HWS that suffers from a plethora of issues. I think mech target saturation is going to work very heavily in the guards' favor; yes, you can shoot and shake+ AV12 pretty reliably, however if you blast the Vendis then you're not shooting the artillery and such. Likewise they're far, far more mobile than other lascannon platforms the IG have, and the option of outflanking to blow away light transports and walkers isn't inconsiderable. Basically, you can't kill the Vendettas while also killing the other vehicles. They're just too good for the points, and I think you touched on that in your post.

Hydras seem overly specialized to be in a take on all comers list. Mech eldar isn't what it used to be, and the points spent on hydras could be put toward other things.

I agree that Mech Eldar isn't what it used to be, but the Hydra is the single best model in the IG codex, if not the game, capable of stopping a SMF wave serpent. Everyone is onboard with autocannons being good, and the Hydra, being a vehicle and being able to abuse damage allocation as part of a squadron, and being able to abuse cover rules as part of a squadron, means that the Hydra is the best autocannon platform out there. Could points be spent on better things? I'm willing to debate it (and I have a thread doing so), but I typically find myself taking the Hydra.

I think, rather than a core of many IG armies, you've discovered some of the strongest aspects of the list to build towards a highly synergistic tournament list.

I realize that anyone who posts a 'best of' list is going to catch a lot of flak. I would ask anyone to propose a better core, either cheaper or more synergistic, that can beat the strengths of this one.

Thank you for your comments.

Guys - this thread is generating a bit of heat - please keep it polite and attack the argument/theory and not the user...

Analysis is not spelled A-N-E-C-D-O-T-E.

sourclams wrote:

Polonius wrote:
Using Vendettas as your primary lascannon source seems risky. Shaking AV12 isn't that hard (as every eldar player knows), and the Vendetta doesn't have anything to make it more durable. It's a steal for what it does and what it costs, but it's also pretty fragile.

I don't disagree, however they're AV12 vehicles with twin link all the time for 130 points, which is a very small premium over a regular non-twin link lascannon HWS that suffers from a plethora of issues. I think mech target saturation is going to work very heavily in the guards' favor; yes, you can shoot and shake+ AV12 pretty reliably, however if you blast the Vendis then you're not shooting the artillery and such. Likewise they're far, far more mobile than other lascannon platforms the IG have, and the option of outflanking to blow away light transports and walkers isn't inconsiderable. Basically, you can't kill the Vendettas while also killing the other vehicles. They're just too good for the points, and I think you touched on that in your post.

Which I figured, but it makes the notion that this is a 900pt core a little misleading. It's really at minimum a 1200pts core (assuming you add at least two russes), but you state upfront that you assume at least two tanks with plasma sponsons, which reaches 200pts a piece in a hurry. Adding two demolishers to make the list a 1300pt core makes it more well rounded, but also means there are now only 550 for troops.

I'd have to try it out, but I'm going to build my first three valk kits as Valkyries, and see how triple melta vets work to drop tanks. The problem with the vendetta is that it's not really that good against landraiders, and can't really stand and try to outshoot any tanks. A shaken Valk with vets can still cause damage, while the vendetta is just running for cover. Sure, you can throw vets in a vendetta, but then you have the struggle between moving, shooting, and delivering payload. It is such a ridiculously cheap unit though, that it will probably simply be a mainstay.

Hydras seem overly specialized to be in a take on all comers list. Mech eldar isn't what it used to be, and the points spent on hydras could be put toward other things.

I agree that Mech Eldar isn't what it used to be, but the Hydra is the single best model in the IG codex, if not the game, capable of stopping a SMF wave serpent. Everyone is onboard with autocannons being good, and the Hydra, being a vehicle and being able to abuse damage allocation as part of a squadron, and being able to abuse cover rules as part of a squadron, means that the Hydra is the best autocannon platform out there. Could points be spent on better things? I'm willing to debate it (and I have a thread doing so), but I typically find myself taking the Hydra.

I think it also depends how often you fight eldar, I suppose. I almost never face them, so I'm not too worried. BTW, I think Eldar have the toughest time with AV12 as well, as they have limited access to multi-shot S7 or S8 weapons.

I think, rather than a core of many IG armies, you've discovered some of the strongest aspects of the list to build towards a highly synergistic tournament list.

I realize that anyone who posts a 'best of' list is going to catch a lot of flak. I would ask anyone to propose a better core, either cheaper or more synergistic, that can beat the strengths of this one.

Thank you for your comments.

What I meant was, and I touched on this above, is that this isn't really a core of a list, so much as the beginnings of a fair specific build. This core matches well with some Russes, mabye some artillery, vets in chimeras or Valks, and enough gunline to keep the enemy honest.

Very well thought out analysis and posting. Very much appreciated. Can't wait for my pre-order codex and valk kits to get here in a couple weeks. I play mostly ork, Nurgle CSM, Necron, and SM bike armies around here...so will be interesting to add some finishing touches to this core template and see what kind of damage I can do.

~Bart

ifyouseekamy wrote: and put Chenkov in with them.

with this, you'll have 2(or 1) looong, stretched-out line of assault fodder. the reason I say have 2 seperate squads is just incase the opponent brings up 2 squads as well, then they'll still be forced to assault the second conscript squad

and with Chenkov's "Send in the Next Wave," at the end of the assault turn, you can remove all Conscripts as necessary, and since you have all your other guardsmen right there behind where the 'scripts where, there's no doubt that you could lay some massacre on some nob bikers with 30-50 lasguns within 12" (rapid fire) utilizing FRFSRF, that can amount from 90-150 lasgun shots.

Just to clarify a couple things here, Chenkov goes in the Platoon Command Squad, then ANY Conscript squad can purchase the ability to recycle. Which they will do at the beginning of the IG players movement. but you can still accomplish the same thing. unfortunately you can't make the conscript fearless, without Creed, and your going to have to put a lord commissar near them to get the order off. But it's the pretty much the same thing Necron players have been doing to everyone with VOD for awhile now.

sourclams wrote:Then prove me wrong.

Speeding Nobs: 3+ cover save

3 Vendettas: 9 TL Lascannons

Turn 1: You speed Nobz 24"

I shoot you with 9 TL lascannons; 6.75 hit 5.625 wounds. 1 Wound on Warboss, 4.625 on Nobz. After 4+ cover saves, you lose 1/3 Warboss + 1.54 Nobz. It's going to be between 1 and 2 Nob Bikes dead. Now my entire army has to kill only 1-2 more Bikes and I hit you with the Psychic Choir and you run away 35/36 of the time.

T2: Your other Nob Bikes hit half of my layered infantry screen and kill them. (assuming I have 2-4 squads in 2 layers; 20"-40" across the table).

I do the same thing again. Your other Bike squadron rallies and turbos again to get back close. They hit the rest of my infantry screen and kill them.

I just keep doing this and squash you, and this is the best case where you go first and I don't get 2 turns of shooting before you hit my infantry screen.

Prove the math wrong, that's all I ask. You're going to run out of Nobz on turn 3.

I'm loving the anti-nob bikers ideas. One thing to remember, that if they do rally during their turn they can move ONLY 3", so no turbo-boosting to get back close. so it's very easy to hit them again with the plan from sourclams, and they should be almost, if not off the board by now.

Don't have my book to verify, but if that's true then... yeah. Nob Bikers were fun for 4 months, and now they're done. Great find.

sourclams wrote:Don't have my book to verify, but if that's true then... yeah. Nob Bikers were fun for 4 months, and now they're done. Great find.

Yep! check out page 46 under Regrouping. They cannot move during that movement phase, but can still shoot, and make an assault. It makes the only real weakness (and up till now it wasn't much of one) of the nobs (leadership test) even worse by making their leadership so bad. make them take a morale test or pinning test at after Weaken Resolve is done, and the Ork player pretty much loses control of them.

Vs Nobz Bikers, wouldnt a Psyker Battle Squad and Callidus Assassin combo be awesome for taking them down?

On the turn the Callidus arrives, drop her next to the Nobz Bikers.
Zoom your PBS Chimera to within LOS and range of the Nobz.
Weaken Resolve to Ld 4 or less, Neural Shredder is Str 8 vs Ld 4, so 2+ wound, AP1, ignores FNP, ignores cover, and instakills.

The only downside is that you have to take a Inquisitor Lord HQ...

Polonius wrote:Using Vendettas as your primary lascannon source seems risky. Shaking AV12 isn't that hard (as every eldar player knows), and the Vendetta doesn't have anything to make it more durable. It's a steal for what it does and what it costs, but it's also pretty fragile.

Hydras seem overly specialized to be in a take on all comers list. Mech eldar isn't what it used to be, and the points spent on hydras could be put toward other things. On the other hand, long range S7 firepower isn't bad by a long shot.

I think, rather than a core of many IG armies, you've discovered some of the strongest aspects of the list to build towards a highly synergistic tournament list.

The beauty of the vendi's is that they can scout. If you take the proper officers in the CCS you can outflank rather early (and help keep them from being exposed to early counter fire) and start shooting some of those annoying obscured ork battlewagons in the nice soft av12 side armor or av10 rear armor and really do some damage to 'em.

Mech eldar is one of the biggest weaknesses of this list and something needs to be done to try to neutralize it for an all-comers list.

And as you yourself stated, long range str7 ap4 shooting doesn't suck on it's own.

Well, I'm coming around to the realization that Vendettas are simply a stupidly cheap source of lascannons. What worries me is that lascannons in general aren't as good as they used to be. Of course, being able to either scout or outflank makes it far more likely to be able to set up flank shots.

My point was that while the Hydras do what they do well, and are generally pretty decent, they're biggest strength is against a list that isn't as common as it was even a year ago. As a generally good unit, three hydras should be in every serious discussion about army building, but to place it as a core IG unit to be found in nearly every list seems a bit over zealous.

Another point in favour of the hydra is the IG mirror match- who isn't going to feild multiple detta/valks?

I think nob bikers easily had a lot more than four months of success. We'll see how they fare in the future.

G

One thing I want to get in the open is that the master of the fleet is not worth it.

The -1 to your opponents reserves is a must not a may. And this will see many Guard players lose. A smart general will set up his entire army in reserve against a shooting opponent if he is to go second. The fewer turns the guard player has to shoot, the more likely he is to lose, especially in an objectives mission. Against demons the same is true. Demons do better piecemeal.

Darkness it seems a lot of people just dont understand and continue to heap unearned praised on a new army we all know is hyped up just like every other one. I do think IG will be more competitive but it's just too early to say that they will clean house. For example I can see them having a lot of problems with daemons and lash spam. Both of these armies have a lot to choose from in their arsenals to counter the new IG threats.

G

Darkness wrote:One thing I want to get in the open is that the master of the fleet is not worth it.

The -1 to your opponents reserves is a must not a may. And this will see many Guard players lose. A smart general will set up his entire army in reserve against a shooting opponent if he is to go second. The fewer turns the guard player has to shoot, the more likely he is to lose, especially in an objectives mission. Against demons the same is true. Demons do better piecemeal.

Deamons do better piecemeal? Seriously? You do know what happens to armies that are half the points cost of the opposition for most of the game? The only reserve unit I can see this being bad against is the eldar 3 jetbike scoring unit reserve (fairly popular this side of the pond). Everyone else wants their reserves in early to mass against a portion of the enemy. Never mind the ability to mess with outflank.

I view the OotF as the only mandatory advisor for take all comers.

edit- @GBF
Soulclams has shown us how the choir unit deals with nob bikers, fairly conclusively and convincingly. Your attitude of- I know best, nu-uh, is only making you look a bit silly. Feel free to attack the arguement rather than boosting your post count with non-useful one liners.

Vendetta + 10 guardsmen shaved off from a large platoon.

Harker + 10 vets, 3melta, 1 h.bolter, chimera.

Astropath

= win.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I think nob bikers easily had a lot more than four months of success. We'll see how they fare in the future.

G

Yes they have.

Nob Bikers ate my firstborn though, apparently others as well.

Darkness wrote:One thing I want to get in the open is that the master of the fleet is not worth it.

The -1 to your opponents reserves is a must not a may. And this will see many Guard players lose. A smart general will set up his entire army in reserve against a shooting opponent if he is to go second. The fewer turns the guard player has to shoot, the more likely he is to lose, especially in an objectives mission. Against demons the same is true. Demons do better piecemeal.

This is a very good point. Too bad many guard players will have to lose several games to realize this. Too many people focus on X kills X when there is so much more than that.

how will taking one model, that is the cost of 6 guardsmen, make the guard player lose. Especially when he will come in very handy in those times where his ability is utilized.

and as for daemons doing better piecemeal... The only daemons that would prefer to come in later would be plaguebearers. All the others really need support to come in quickly, or they will get bogged down, and destoryed. Daemons depend on target saturation, and when they can only do that during the first turn they start to become weak.

I'm not sure where the hate that is being directed at the OP is coming from.

Go back and read his original post(s). Nowhere does he imply that IG will be the dominant force in tournaments and that you will automatically win all your games if you take his suggestions. Nor is he saying that this is the *only* way to play the Imperial Guard and win.

Also, in no way by him presenting this idea does is somehow suck the fun out of the codex. If you like to play Guard however you like to play it then him presenting this idea shouldn't affect you in the least.

He is simply presenting his take on how to configure the guard in a pure form how to best tackle the types of lists that seem to pop up at tournaments fairly regularly.

As with *ALL* army list suggestions, simply playing the army isn't going to win the game for you. Of course your opponent is going to be doing everything in their power to avoid your key strategies while you as the IG player will be doing the same.


I, for one, found this to be a very interesting read and I would love to see some IG winning tournaments in the future on a regular basis. I think his concepts have merit and while they certainly don't mean you'll automatically win, pretending these strategies just won't work at all is equally as silly.

For me, I won't be going anywhere an army like this. It if far, far too gimmicky for my tastes, but then again I don't have any desire to try to combat tournament cheese lists and/or try to actually win tournaments. I'd much rather come with my mid-level IG army I enjoy and get my ass handed to me instead.


But again, great thread sourclams. I appreciate the time and effort you put into it!

It is a good thread for the information presented here how to build a versatile list. I did come away with the impression that some statements came across as IG FTW... I will go back and read through the entire thread again.

edit - @GBF
Soulclams has shown us how the choir unit deals with nob bikers, fairly conclusively and convincingly. Your attitude of- I know best, nu-uh, is only making you look a bit silly. Feel free to attack the arguement rather than boosting your post count with non-useful one liners.

Armies such as nob bikers and daemons have a lot of options, especially daemons. I think IG will be a lot more competitive now but it's not time to put away those other armies yet either. I think Tzneetch lists in general are going to be nasty for IG to counter. Nob bikers only need to drop one biker squad to take other units needed to deal with IG such as Lootas.

G

But if the Nob Biker list has to take away one unit of Nob Bikers, is it a Nob Biker list anymore?

I like the core IG presented here, though I might not go so far with the Vendetta's. Maybe 1 Vendetta and 1 Valkyrie with upgraded missile pods in seperate squadrons for me. I'm not sure the 3 vendetta's will offer much against a classic Ork Horde list while the Valkryries will shine. For a strong Take all Comers list, I would rely on 3 Meltagun vets in Chimera's for the strongest armor punching and possibly a Meltacannon hellhound. I have been underwelmed with the Lascannons ability to punch through armor 14 in 5th edition.

Just a couple thoughts. As daemons are a treat that we solving for on this thread. You should consider hvy sentinels. They have AV 12 on the front which mean that a large majority of the daemon list (including the likes of blood crushers, can do absolutely nothing against you in hth).

They are also good for doing things like tar pitting plague marines. 1 powerfist will take a long time to get through 3 hvy sentinels.

The other thought is that sisters of battle bring guard to a whole new level... The book of st lucius and conscripts or combined infantry squads will be mean.

Tanks can shoot right over infantry. So you tarpit infantry to protect you LRs. HTH is the death of IG tanks.

Finally consider the madness of dominions in vandettas...

So nasty.

Here is a quick Tzneetch list I threw together I think would give IG fits plus could contend with other armies:

1807 points

HQ:
Fateweaver (333 Pts)
The Blue Scribes (130 Pts)

Troops:
8x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (168 Pts)
Bolt of Tzeentch (x1)
The Changeling

9x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (163 Pts)
Bolt of Tzeentch (x1)

9x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (163 Pts)
Bolt of Tzeentch (x1)

Elite:
3x Flamers of Tzeentch (135 Pts)
Bolt of Tzeentch (x1)

3x Flamers of Tzeentch (135 Pts)
Bolt of Tzeentch (x1)

Heavy Support:
Daemon Prince of Chaos (290 Pts)
Daemonic Flight; Iron Hide; Mark of Tzeentch; Master of Sorcery; Bolt of Tzeentch; Breath of Chaos; Daemonic Gaze

Daemon Prince of Chaos (290 Pts)
Daemonic Flight; Iron Hide; Mark of Tzeentch; Master of Sorcery; Bolt of Tzeentch; Breath of Chaos; Daemonic Gaze


I played nob bikers at Adepticon this year in the team tourney and my first thought was that only one biker unit is necessary. If they are still considered nob bikers I will leave that up to others to decide.

G

On trick you can do with your DH ally to save a few points (if I recall) is taking an Elite Inq with hood with 2 Hierophants in his retinue for the +2 Ld, instead of the HQ inq. It shaves 5 points or so, but also leaves you an open HQ slot of for other fun things.

Great analysis though 'Clams. I appreciate you taking the time.

Green Blow Fly wrote: I think Tzneetch lists in general are going to be nasty for IG to counter. Nob bikers only need to drop one biker squad to take other units needed to deal with IG such as Lootas.

A single 165pt choir unit it the IG army (assuming full psychers and a chimera) gives the army a reliable counter to the nob bikers. Even if you are only taking one 700pt uber unit, that is still a net gain for the IG. If you could all but guarantee a 700pt return from every shooting phase you would never lose. Yes, the orcs can change their army list (snikrot/deffcoptas are looking good vs IG), but the IG will still have the advantage of neutering your main threat almost straight away, with units that are useful in an allcomers environment.

I have little experience of tzeentchian lists, but I assume they include fateweaver. Another lynchpin unit that the choir is spectacularly well suited to killing off. -edit: 290pt deamon princes? Wow-

Dettas and massed autocannons also top trump lash prince oblit spam armies nicely.

Of all of the big boy lists the one that the guard have no obvious answer for (not necessarily top trump-just answer) is the bike seer council. Multiple choirs and hope to get one weaken resolve off?

I personally like one Nob biker squad and one squad of Nobs in a battlewagon.

For one, you are in a vehicle so you ignore the lash until you're smushing the lash into the ground.

Second, deff rollers are great for smashing tanks that having the nobs assault the dudes from inside the vehicle.

One thing I want to get in the open is that the master of the fleet is not worth it.

The -1 to your opponents reserves is a must not a may. And this will see many Guard players lose. A smart general will set up his entire army in reserve against a shooting opponent if he is to go second. The fewer turns the guard player has to shoot, the more likely he is to lose, especially in an objectives mission. Against demons the same is true. Demons do better piecemeal.

This is a very good point. Too bad many guard players will have to lose several games to realize this. Too many people focus on X kills X when there is so much more than that.

I realize that nothing I say will penetrate the wall of "tactical understanding" that some individuals have built around themselves. However, there are other people who have assumptions about units in the new IG 'dex and how they'll synergize who may read this thread and find it useful and it's for them that I intend this post.

On the Master of the Fleet:

If you had an ability that reduced how many points your opponents had available in your list, wouldn't that be stupidly broken? That's what the Master of the Fleet does. Vulnerable armies can include anyone that relies heavily on good reserve rolls, like Khan Outflank marines and Drop Podders, but any army that can choose reserves as a reasonable option (combi-melta Chaos Termicide squads, Crisis Tau, Scuttling 'Stealers) is hit pretty hard. This is because either they ignore those options, in which case they're wrong-footed from the beginning, or they take the gamble on coming in piecemeal.

I don't know where this myth began about the Officer of the Fleet causing reserves to all show up on turn 5, or the other myth that piecemeal reserves are somehow good tactics, but there is absolutely no merit to either point of view. As the most obvious example, let's take Daemons, an army almost 100% dependent upon its reserve rolls:

T1: 50% of army on board
T2: 75% of army on board (excluding casualties)
T3: 91.7%
T4: 98.6%

Turn 2 is obviously the scary monster; 75% of his army is on the board, probably within 7-14" of yours (unless you have mystics ).

Now let's add the Officer of the Fleet

T1: 50% of army on board
T2: 66% of army on board (excluding casualties)
T3: 83%
T4: 97%

Turn 1 is identical, turn 4 is nearly identical, but turns 2 and 3 suddenly look a lot more manageable. What the OotF does is reduce the Daemon army by 90 points on Turn 2, and 87 points on Turn2. Basically, 30 points are "killing" 90 points on those two turns. This effect is magnified when the number of reserves is very small; 1 giant outflanking Kor'sorro Khan bike death squad wouldn't reliably show up until turn 3-4, rather than 2-3, especially coupled with the reroll of table edge; 55% of the time your opponent shows up on the wrong edge.

So the enemy still appears by turn 4 giving you at least one turn of shooting to deal with them, turns 2-3 are more "safe", and 55% of the time outflankers appear on the wrong table edge.

Here's where this list fails:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Here is a quick Tzneetch list I threw together I think would give IG fits plus could contend with other armies:

1807 points
...
HQ:
Fateweaver (333 Pts)
...

Fateweaver shows up. Psychic Choir reduces his leadership to 2-3. Vendettas and, if necessary Hydras, shoot Fateweaver. Statistically, you need 9 wounds to put one unsaved wound onto a rerollable 3++. Odds are good the Vendettas do it by themselves, but almost certain that the Hydras will if the Vendettas don't.

Fateweaver fails a 2+ Ld test and flies back into the warp.

Likewise, the rest of the list is complete fail versus mech IG and partial fail versus Guyspam IG. You've got 3-4 S8 shots per turn to take down all my armor and you can't rely on Fateweaver giving your Horrors extra survivability. After cover saves and failing to pen/glance, you're not killing nearly enough armor to make up for all the death that's being plopped onto your lines.

OddJob. wrote:
Of all of the big boy lists the one that the guard have no obvious answer for (not necessarily top trump-just answer) is the bike seer council. Multiple choirs and hope to get one weaken resolve off?

Unfortunately, that's about as good as I can come up with too. I think that currently, 100% GUYSPAM is actually stronger against "pure" seer bike council. The problem then of course is that against mech lists, you get tank shocked right off the table...

But hey, 3/4 lists beat based on simple fundamentals is better than most codices can claim.

yakface wrote:
But again, great thread sourclams. I appreciate the time and effort you put into it!

Thanks.

sourclams wrote:Unfortunately, that's about as good as I can come up with too. I think that currently, 100% GUYSPAM is actually stronger against "pure" seer bike council.

100% GUYSPAM? Where is malfred! That's a party I know he'd be into!

sourclams you are always assuming that your psychic choir will be in effective range. I have pointed this out to you more than once. It seems you believe that everyone is going to let you play to your strengths which is not always the case by any means.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:sourclams you are always assuming that your psychic choir will be in effective range. I have pointed this out to you more than once. It seems you believe that everyone is going to let you play to your strengths which is not always the case by any means.

G

Isn't the range of Weaken Resolve 36"? Isn't the effective range of Nob bikers 18"? If i'm missing something, let me know, but it seems to me that there is no way to properly use nob bikers and not get within range.

Playing Devil's Advocate.

If the Choir is such a threat, then the way to do it is kill the choir. If it's hiding in a vehicle, shoot the vehicle. Most good 40k lists worth their salt should find a way to get to the enemy they need to get to either through shooting them or assaulting them.

I'm not convinced Vendetta's can be the all encompassing threat they seem to be on paper. They need to come on in reserve, or start on the table and get shot. When they do come on don't they only move 6" to fire all three lascannons? That's not so fast. Any faster and it's only one lascannon firing or do they have a special rule I don't know about.

I suppose Fateweaver can come down turn 1. If no Vendetta's, then they come out on turn 2 with a 3+ right? That's not a sure thing. I'm sure the Bolt's of change and Soul Grinder mouth weapons, and flamers of Tzeentch will have nothing better to do then target the biggect threat to Fateweaver.

Likewise a more balanced Ork force with 1 Nob Biker unit wold devote some Loota fire or even boom gun fire into the threats for the Bikers if available.

Weaken resolve is nice, but it's not going to work against a bunch of fearless stuff (most chaos stuff or any Daemon list with no Fateweaver). Is there a better way to deal with Chaos Lash? Maybe all mech, which will always work against everyone while the Choir works great against a few things.

I really like the idea of the Choir used in conjuncture with assassins. The Culuxus and the Callidus both have great shooting attacks that are enhanced with a choir nearby.

Green Blow Fly wrote:sourclams you are always assuming that your psychic choir will be in effective range. I have pointed this out to you more than once. It seems you believe that everyone is going to let you play to your strengths which is not always the case by any means.

G

If he moves the squad's chimera to the center of the board then every square inch (except the very corners) is already within its effective range on a typical 6'x4' board.

Would a calidus assassin's neural shredder cause instant death against Bike Nobs?

EDIT:

And DDiggler, I believe that Valks are flyers, not skimmers and therefore can fire all their weapons as they move across the table.

DarthDiggler wrote:If the Choir is such a threat, then the way to do it is kill the choir. If it's hiding in a vehicle, shoot the vehicle. Most good 40k lists worth their salt should find a way to get to the enemy they need to get to either through shooting them or assaulting them.

Fortunately for guard, weaken resolve is an assault 1 shot. The chimera can be behind a leman russ. It is possible to 'kill' the choir, but IG players won't make it easy for you, and they have great tools for making it hard. Multiple vehicle spam, screened vehicles, camo netting, etc.

DarthDiggler wrote:I'm not convinced Vendetta's can be the all encompassing threat they seem to be on paper. They need to come on in reserve, or start on the table and get shot. When they do come on don't they only move 6" to fire all three lascannons? That's not so fast. Any faster and it's only one lascannon firing or do they have a special rule I don't know about.

I'm with you. In all of my games so far, the valkyrie with missile pods has FLOORED me. lascannons are cool, but moving on the table 12" and dropping 2 large blasts and a multi-laser salvo, then doing it again, after moving another 12". Or being able to deep strike and fire ALL of those weapons is just amazing. I'll probably keep a ratio of one vendetta to two valks.

DarthDiggler wrote:Likewise a more balanced Ork force with 1 Nob Biker unit wold devote some Loota fire or even boom gun fire into the threats for the Bikers if available.

I think the entire 40k community will personally thank Robin Cruddance for making the 2 nob biker army a 1 nob biker army. In every post I've ever read about nob bikers, someone inevitably says. "I can handle one nob biker unit, but two is where the list becomes broken".

DarthDiggler wrote: Weaken resolve is nice, but it's not going to work against a bunch of fearless stuff (most chaos stuff or any Daemon list with no Fateweaver). Is there a better way to deal with Chaos Lash? Maybe all mech, which will always work against everyone while the Choir works great against a few things.

Sure weaken resolve works against fearless armies. It is just called soulstorm at that point. Half of your shots are going to be ap3 or better, you'll be high strength, and you can fire it out of a moving chimera.

Lash is in trouble against IG. Physically screened executioners/demolishers hard-counter deep striking oblits. Every model on the table being a vehicle is a slight problem for a lash prince. And after that, the chaos army is just getting outshot and outmaneuvered, and immune to the 'i pull you off of the objective with lash' shikanery.


Now if you want to play Devil's Advocate, throw some stuff about demons in there. I just got my head handed to me on saturday by a khorne list with my artillery heavy test list. I don't see the mystic as a 'hard' counter. But I may include it for tourney play just to soften the blow that demons are. Some other tweaks to my list will help. And him not getting so lucky with his reserves rolls and scatters.

By no means do i think guard are unbeatable, or even a stronger codex than orks. But it certainly seems they have enough gas to play in the big boy's room. And that is all I could have ever asked for.

DarthDiggler wrote:Playing Devil's Advocate.

If the Choir is such a threat, then the way to do it is kill the choir. If it's hiding in a vehicle, shoot the vehicle. Most good 40k lists worth their salt should find a way to get to the enemy they need to get to either through shooting them or assaulting them.

I'm not convinced Vendetta's can be the all encompassing threat they seem to be on paper. They need to come on in reserve, or start on the table and get shot. When they do come on don't they only move 6" to fire all three lascannons? That's not so fast. Any faster and it's only one lascannon firing or do they have a special rule I don't know about.

I suppose Fateweaver can come down turn 1. If no Vendetta's, then they come out on turn 2 with a 3+ right? That's not a sure thing. I'm sure the Bolt's of change and Soul Grinder mouth weapons, and flamers of Tzeentch will have nothing better to do then target the biggect threat to Fateweaver.

Likewise a more balanced Ork force with 1 Nob Biker unit wold devote some Loota fire or even boom gun fire into the threats for the Bikers if available.

Weaken resolve is nice, but it's not going to work against a bunch of fearless stuff (most chaos stuff or any Daemon list with no Fateweaver). Is there a better way to deal with Chaos Lash? Maybe all mech, which will always work against everyone while the Choir works great against a few things.

I really like the idea of the Choir used in conjuncture with assassins. The Culuxus and the Callidus both have great shooting attacks that are enhanced with a choir nearby.

Don't forget the Psychic Choir has a very nice blast weapon attack too, for those times when your facing a fearless army. And they are VERY cost effective for what they can do. I'm seeing them as almost a Guard "Obliterators" or even a "lash", in the sense that they add some interesting, and possibly very powerful, effects to the Guard army.

whitedragon wrote:Would a calidus assassin's neural shredder cause instant death against Bike Nobs?

EDIT:

And DDiggler, I believe that Valks are flyers, not skimmers and therefore can fire all their weapons as they move across the table.

If the targets Ld is half of the attack "strength" of 8, then yes, it inflicts instant death. So after psychic choir... (from the daemonhunters faq)

"Flyers" as a type exists only in Apocalypse and the forgeworld books. In regular 40k games Valkyries are skimmers.

Cent just posted a batrep for an IG build of his versus daemons. It all came down to one assault and that was a gamble.

G

It also wasn't a very optimized list - a solid list, yeah, but considering he was running without Valks/Vendettas, I think it could've been tighter.

You know I would an entire IG army shooting at the Fateweaver. White Devil made 18 saves in a row for him this past Saturday. Even if he does die it pretty much assures everything else goes untouched during the initial drop... Spread out a bit and multi-charge.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:You know I would an entire IG army shooting at the Fateweaver. White Devil made 18 saves in a row for him this past Saturday. Even if he does die it pretty much assures everything else goes untouched during the initial drop... Spread out a bit and multi-charge.

G

That is how it works against Daemons :( At least the Choir gives us a way to (usually) only have to put ONE wound on him (not easy).

Against Daemons you *need* Inq+Mystics, just to keep them from DS right on top of you. But that doesn't always stop them even. I played a Daemon player who DS Fateweaver and two units of 7 BC *right in front of my LRD + Inq Mystic*, after my shooting, he only had lost 2 BC total. It then took my whole turn of shooting to put 1 wound on FW (who thankful failed his Ld test). No, even w/ Choir, it is still hard to stop Daemons.

I also feel this "OotF is bad" is complete nonsense. Any Daemon player and droppod heavy SM player is not looking forward to this. Hell I just played a Nercon player who was (at the start of the game) already complaining that his Monolith is never going to come in (he rolled a on turn two, but oh well).


And as for the whole "your opponent will just shoot the Choir", this is just plain silly talk. IG players know how to screen units, do you think it is that hard to position AV14 in between Lootaz and your Choir?

Well since this core contains a DH inquisitor, just strap a psycannon to him. This should put a wound on Fateweaver fairly easily. Combined with a Psychic Choir that should pretty much be the end of Fateweaver, just using 2 units. this will leave the rest of the Guard army to take on the rest of the T3 4++ save models.

And as for shooting the Choir, who says there is just one Choir, they are cheap enough to take a couple, or even 3

Statistically only the Hydras plus a little bit more need to shoot at Fateweaver. 12 shots * .75 hits * 5/6 wounds = 7.5 wounds, only need 1.5 more wounds to get to 9 which is the sacred cow for putting one unsaved wound on Fateweaver. I realize that "Math" has become a four-letter-word, but if we assume that our buddies don't use cooked dice, then they're going to roll a 2 eventually.

wow just wow... Teh dice comment was uncalled for.

Psycannon is not by any means a guarenteed unsaved wound against Kairos... Three shots... Assume one misses and you wound on a 3+. Anybody with a modicum of sense would keep another unit between Kairos and the psycannon granting the cover save.

Like I said before Cent is no slouch at this game and he just squeaked out a win. I would put the money on his skill versus a walking Gouda list.

G

Weaken Resolve and Lash seem to really push towards fielding: 1) a way to reliably neutralize psyhic powers or 2) mounting up in transports. Both have ways to deal with big, expensive units (that are non-Fearless for WR) that aren't in a transport. Both need LOS, so you can try to run a vehicle screen to deny LOS, but I wouldn't count on it.

Nob Bikers will still win a lot of games. IG is not a hugely popular tourney army, not like MEQs. People will gamble they don't play them. Or they'll take a few trukks or battlewagons to screen the unit. It's like taking 3 monoliths - you're fine as long you don't draw that Tau player with 6 broadsides or 3 hammerheads in the first game or two.

Of course, fielding a bunch of cheap, small units has its own problems - usually keep them alive. Interesting time for 40k. Glad to see the metagame really messed with.

Makes me want to start a SW Bondsmen-themed IG force. You know, after building the rest of my Tau. And my SW tanks. And then refitting my SW army with the new codex. And after the 300 ork boyz I have get assembled and painted. And work on some Grey Knights and Inquisitors. And build the Baneblade that I won with my SW army - which would be perfect to go with the SW bondsmen IG force.....

IMHO lootas + 1 nob biker is stronger than 2 nob biker. I know from experience. I played a very good player and list in the adepticon tourney, and I found those two harder to deal with than just one big mob that doesnt split my focus.

Someone brought it up. I would quote but my internet is being very slow...

dietrich wrote:IG is not a hugely popular tourney army, not like MEQs.

I would really question this, once IG are assimilated more into the 'Net deck of effective lists. Orks weren't really a tournament army through 4th ed until 5th ed made them really effective. Now, according to the griping on this forum, most top tourney tables seem to spam various varieties of Ork lists. The high model count means they're not a cheap army to assemble, either (since AoBR doesn't really feature into the 'Net deck).

IG has the potential to be really, really good. I'm still waiting for my backordered plasma executioner turret from Forge World that I assume is out due to being oversold; I think a lot of people are jumping on the new codex now that it has options that are cool, fun, and powerful.

I agree. There's going to be a lot of new tactics being discovered over the next few weeks/months. Once people get the hang of the new stuff IG are gonna be seen at tourneys much more often.

sourclams wrote:

OddJob. wrote:
Of all of the big boy lists the one that the guard have no obvious answer for (not necessarily top trump-just answer) is the bike seer council. Multiple choirs and hope to get one weaken resolve off?

Unfortunately, that's about as good as I can come up with too. I think that currently, 100% GUYSPAM is actually stronger against "pure" seer bike council. The problem then of course is that against mech lists, you get tank shocked right off the table...

If you went the guyspam route (btw, I love this term, haven't heard it before this week), considering the cost of the guard, you could easily invest 50 points into giving 10 squad sergeants meltabombs. This way tank shocking goes from an easy way to knock Guard around to a pretty bad idea. Honestly, though, I can't remember if there are any differences between 4th & 5th ed tank shocking rules that might prevent this. Going against back armor, I'm pretty sure the meltabomb negates any toughness advantages of the Wave Serpent, and you're not really risking anything.

Biophysic wrote:If you went the guyspam route (btw, I love this term, haven't heard it before this week), considering the cost of the guard, you could easily invest 50 points into giving 10 squad sergeants meltabombs. This way tank shocking goes from an easy way to knock Guard around to a pretty bad idea. Honestly, though, I can't remember if there are any differences between 4th & 5th ed tank shocking rules that might prevent this. Going against back armor, I'm pretty sure the meltabomb negates any toughness advantages of the Wave Serpent, and you're not really risking anything.

I dont really see a need for this. All guardsmen come with Assault Grenades, which pretty much means they have the potential to glance a vehicle with rear armor 10. Especially when you have 50 guys nading your tank. (Thats about 3 glances, but still).

Or just put melta guns in there. Same principle.

sourclams wrote:

dietrich wrote:IG is not a hugely popular tourney army, not like MEQs.

I would really question this, once IG are assimilated more into the 'Net deck of effective lists. Orks weren't really a tournament army through 4th ed until 5th ed made them really effective. Now, according to the griping on this forum, most top tourney tables seem to spam various varieties of Ork lists.

You can't look at just the top tables of a tourney to see what is popular though. MEQs will likely continue to dominate tournies. With a new codex, once the 'netdecks start coming out, I think they'll see an upswing. But, I don't think IG will be 50% of a tourney field (which a few years ago, 2/3 of GT armies were MEQs - all the loyalist marines, CSM, GKs, and I'd include Necrons and SoB with that). Which, I think is a good thing. The more variety in armies at a tourney, the harder it is to metagame. Right now though, it seems like the metagame favors mech forces - prevents Lash, prevents Weaken Resolve, and vehicles are more durable.

Just wanna check... there are 5 firepoints in a chimera.

A squad of 10 battle-psykers can use thier psychic shooting attacks at full strength as (due to the psychic choir rule) only one model is used to draw LOS & range from.

Right?

Correct Razerous. One guy uses Weaken Resolve at -(x number of psykers in squad) and 4 guys can shoot their laspistols....or something.

Lukus83 wrote:Or just put melta guns in there. Same principle.

Yes, but it's more expensive and precludes another special weapon, and against wave serpents it doesn't get the extra D6, so you go from:

4+ to hit
4+ to glance

to

6+ to hit (at worst, I don't have my book on me and don't remember the tank shock rules)
~96% chance to penetrate

It's a bit worse, but it doesn't take a special weapon slot, and I think an all-infantry army probably has points to spare to make every front line squad a tank threat.

I want to say that you hit automatically with tank-shocking, but that might be my brain digging up the rules from older rules sets. If that's is the case, meltabombs on sergeants really just shut down tank shocking Wave Serpents. They also give you a chance in hell against walkers in close combat as a bonus feature.

Biophysic wrote:

I want to say that you hit automatically with tank-shocking, but that might be my brain digging up the rules from older rules sets. If that's is the case, meltabombs on sergeants really just shut down tank shocking Wave Serpents. They also give you a chance in hell against walkers in close combat as a bonus feature.

Yep, you auto hit during a Death or Glory attack. so a sergeant getting tank shocked would have a good chance of at least glancing the wave serpent with melta bombs (more than likely would pen), then you just have to stun, imobilize, or destroy the tank. Even if you don't its just a sergeant, i'm sure there's more where he came from. but do it a couple of times and your opponent will think twice about tank shocking your guard.

airmang wrote:

Biophysic wrote:

I want to say that you hit automatically with tank-shocking, but that might be my brain digging up the rules from older rules sets. If that's is the case, meltabombs on sergeants really just shut down tank shocking Wave Serpents. They also give you a chance in hell against walkers in close combat as a bonus feature.

Yep, you auto hit during a Death or Glory attack. so a sergeant getting tank shocked would have a good chance of at least glancing the wave serpent with melta bombs (more than likely would pen), then you just have to stun, imobilize, or destroy the tank. Even if you don't its just a sergeant, i'm sure there's more where he came from. but do it a couple of times and your opponent will think twice about tank shocking your guard.

The 5th edition rules also state that a DoG attack can only be made by models that are in the path of the vehicle, so you can tank shock the edge of a squad (away from a model that can damage you) and ignore a pesky sarge.

A meltagun is much better against tank shock since the bomb has no AP.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:A meltagun is much better against tank shock since the bomb has no AP.

G

Not at all, Meltabombs go against rear armor, so your chances of penetration are higher against a lot of tanks. Also against wave serpents, meltaguns don't get the extra die of damage, so half the time they do nothing. As I previously mentioned, meltaguns also take up your special weapon slot, which may not matter, but it might. Against non-wave serpents and AV 14 stuff, it probably is better, but still suffers from the aforementioned drawbacks.

The real problem is the one mentioned by whitedragon, in that your opponents can pick and choose where they tank shock. I think you can get around this by deploying your squads in wedges, with the sarge at the point, so it is difficult to get at the squad without going through him. I don't think this would work very well, however, because you would basically have to arrange the squad the turn before tank shocking, and it would only work against one tank. I guess the best stationary formation one could do would be to have multiple squads (3-4) near each other, clustered in the middle, with sergeants arrayed on the outside, 2" away from their squad, so to get to any squad, you'd have to go through some squad's sergeant.

All DoG attacks are against front armour... Meltagun is better as the field only works against shooting attacks (which DoG isn't) and the melta has ap1 (as GBF stated). Not getting run over is of course an issue.

Biophysic wrote:If you went the guyspam route (btw, I love this term, haven't heard it before this week), considering the cost of the guard, you could easily invest 50 points into giving 10 squad sergeants meltabombs. This way tank shocking goes from an easy way to knock Guard around to a pretty bad idea. Honestly, though, I can't remember if there are any differences between 4th & 5th ed tank shocking rules that might prevent this. Going against back armor, I'm pretty sure the meltabomb negates any toughness advantages of the Wave Serpent, and you're not really risking anything.

Death or Glory always resolves against front armor, even with melee attacks. It isn't the same thing as assaulting a vehicle. You would still ignore the energy field because of how energy fields work. Death or Glory with a melta bomb against a Wave Serpent would have a 21/36 chance of succeeding and a 15/36 chance of turning a passed leadership test into a failed one plus a splattered sergeant.

Raxmei wrote:

Biophysic wrote:If you went the guyspam route (btw, I love this term, haven't heard it before this week), considering the cost of the guard, you could easily invest 50 points into giving 10 squad sergeants meltabombs. This way tank shocking goes from an easy way to knock Guard around to a pretty bad idea. Honestly, though, I can't remember if there are any differences between 4th & 5th ed tank shocking rules that might prevent this. Going against back armor, I'm pretty sure the meltabomb negates any toughness advantages of the Wave Serpent, and you're not really risking anything.

Death or Glory always resolves against front armor, even with melee attacks. It isn't the same thing as assaulting a vehicle. You would still ignore the energy field because of how energy fields work. Death or Glory with a melta bomb against a Wave Serpent would have a 21/36 chance of succeeding and a 15/36 chance of turning a passed leadership test into a failed one plus a splattered sergeant.

My mistake, but I think the bombs are still a bit better in this case because they ignore the energy field, although meltabombs and guns are closer in end result than I initially made out. The rules say that you can make a close combat or a shooting attack against the tank shocking vehicle, so I think OddJob is mistaken, but if there is a known clarification, I'll happily be corrected.

Raxmei, I'm not sure what you mean when you say a DoG attack could turn a passed test into a failed one. If the DoG fails, the only thing that happens is that the sergeant or gunner dies.

Assuming successful leadership test, with meltabombs, vs. armor 12:
3/36 times, fail to glance or penetrate
3/36 times, glances, 1/3 of glances stop the tank
30/36 times, penetrates, 2/3 of penetrations stop the tank
As Raxmei previously said, 21/36 times (58%), you stop the tank.

Meltagun:
3/6 times, fail to glance or penetrate
1/6 times, glances, 3/6 of glances stop the tank
2/6 times, penetrate, 5/6 of penetrations stop the tank
So, 13/36 times (36%), you stop the tank


Honestly, I'd take either of these bets against a Wave Serpent, so which you use just depends on what fits in your army, I think.

I would go with the bomb, simply because I refuse to give meltaguns to bs 3 models. I NEVER hit with them.

DoG is the exception of course as its an auto hit, but id rather give them flamers or gls, and equip the sarge with the meltabomb so they have a desent special and still have a defense against tank shock which is by far the greatest weakness of guyspam.

sourclams
What do you end up filling the rest of your list at 1750 to 1850 with?

It seems odd that a core does not include any scoring units. 2/3's of the missions are objective based and require troops to score to win and your core has no troops.

It also seems that some number of Leman Russ should be taken as well but which ones in what configurations?

Might it be better for Vendettas to be separate fast attack choices so they can carry scoring troops to different locations?

You seem to have forgotten horde orks as a major player. Your core seems to do pretty poorly against horde orks.

Hydras don't seem like they should be a core part of any Guard list. They are great against skimmers but seem vulnerable and not all that effective against MEQ.

I chose the meltagun for the +1 on the AP table. The armies I play most units I will field have access to the meltagun and I believe it is the more well rounded choice and as such can be utilized better for other situations beside DoG. I think the inclusion of a meltagun is much more visible than a meltabomb and the sight of it alone will make many players think twice before running their tank into said unit.

G

Avariel wrote:sourclams
What do you end up filling the rest of your list at 1750 to 1850 with?

I personally intend for 3x melta vets, 1xGriffon1xColossus combo and Plasma Executioner/Demolisher with Plasma sponsons and a naked LR sidekick, depending on how well vets do at killing vehicles and living through it to score afterwards. Russes aren't necessary from an offensive standpoint with all the new shiny Guard artillery, but I do feel they're necessary for creating an AV14 wall between your more fragile AV12 tanks and either eating shots or granting cover to the light artillery chassis.

The Banewolf and Medusas with Bunker Busters are options I'm kicking around pretty hard. Killing AV14 from across the table is amazing, and the Banewolf is wicked good antiassault.

It seems odd that a core does not include any scoring units. 2/3's of the missions are objective based and require troops to score to win and your core has no troops.

Again, it's intended as a template. You can fill with either elite troops or massed troops, to flavor.

It also seems that some number of Leman Russ should be taken as well but which ones in what configurations?

Plasma Executioner with plasma sponsons in a squadron with a naked LRBT/LRExterminator. The naked Russ can pop smoke when needed and you allocate hits onto the smoked Russ for AV14 with 4+ cover. I'm currently favoring the LR Exterminator because the massed S7 is useful for popping light transports at long range.

Might it be better for Vendettas to be separate fast attack choices so they can carry scoring troops to different locations?

On the fence about this. Yes, separate choices are more effective for shooting at multiple targets, however I don't really see much negative to having them massed, either. Likewise the squadron of 3 is much more effective against Nob Bikers due to wound saturation. I'm going to have to play a few games out before I make a final conclusion, but right now I'm leaning towards 3 in 1.

You seem to have forgotten horde orks as a major player. Your core seems to do pretty poorly against horde orks.

As soon as you add in the artillery and tanks, Horde Orks die horribly. Likewise, the Hydras and artillery tanks all get free hull mounted heavy flamers. Orks that live through the blasting and the weaken resolve nonsense have to contend with a final charge from 6-9 tank shocking heavy flamers. Those are not odds that horde Orks will stay alive against.

You hit automatically when making a death or Glory Attack, that's why I prefer a Melta Gun.

Sourclams
You full list looks good.

You are getting Chimeras for the 3 melta veteran squads right?

Collosus seems really hindered by the 24 minimum range. Has that been a problem for you?

Shep also has been saying that the Plasma executioner is good. Is it better than the Demolisher though? Demolisher has Strength 10 for insta killing Nob bikers, characters and the ability to shoot at Land Raiders or high AV vehicles with Str 10 plus rolling 2 d6 and taking the highest seems better and its cheaper.

Banewolf sounds fun if you can get in range to use the chemical cannon. If you are in range to use the chemical cannon you are also in melta range. Are these worth it since they compete with Valkyries for fast attack slots and they have a high cost as opposed to an Immolator which is not as effective but can carry troops and is much cheaper?

Seperate fast attack choices for Valkyries/Vendettas seems to be the way to go so you can use them to move your scoring veterans to different objectives more so then the ability to split fire. I been running 3 as seperate choices. Being massed as one choice is a disadvantage if you are facing things like Exorcists or Hydra Squadrons. The squadron is better against like NOb bikers though.

I will have to try the Hydras myself. The math looks decent for Hydras especially shooting Rhinos and Marines in cover. Did some comparison of hydra to valkyrie vendetta. Neither is all that good against Nob bikers unless you run a squadron of Vendettas since the wounds just go on the warboss.

Nob Bikers
Hydra versus Nob Biker 3/4 hit * 5/6 wound * 1/2 fail smoke trail cover * 4 shots = 1.25 wounds
Vendetta versus Nob Biker = 3/4 hit * 5/6 wound * 3 shots * 1/2 fail smoke trail cover = 0.9375 wounds on warboss

Dreadnaught/Chimera front
Hydra versus dreadnaught 3/4 hit * 1/6 penetrate * 1/3 destroy or explode * 4 shots = 0.1667 chance to kill dread * 2 hydras = 0.3333 chance to kill dread
Vendetta versus dreadnaught 3/4 hit * 1/2 penetrate * 1/3 destroy or explode * 3 shots = 0.375 chance of kill dread

Rhino/Razorback
Hydra versus Rhino/Razorback 3/4 hit * 1/3 penatrate * 1/3 destroy or explode * 4 shots = 0.333 * 2 hydras = 0.666 chance to kill dread
Vendetta versus Rhino/Razorback 3/4 hit * 2/3 penatrate * 1/3 destroy or explode * 3 shots = 0.49 to kill

Marines
Hydra versus Marine 3/4 hit * 5/6 wound * 1/3 fail save * 4 shots = 0.8333 bikes killed per hydra * 2 = 1.6667 Marines killed
Vendetta versus Marine 3/4 hit * 5/6 wound * 3 shots = 1.875 Marines killed

Marine in Cover
Hydra versus Marine 3/4 hit * 5/6 wound * 1/3 fail save * 4 shots = 0.8333 bikes killed per hydra * 2 = 1.6667 Marines killed
Vendetta versus Marine = 3/4 hit * 5/6 wound * 3 shots * 1/2 fail cover = 0.9375 Marines killed

Real quick reply because I'm headed out the door:

Right now I like the Executioner versus the Demolisher. Three plasma shots isn't optimal versus Nob Bikers, but it's not bad, either. My list can saturate Nob Bikers with wounds to the point that allocation won't matter; 2x Banewolves with heavy flamer and chemical cannon saturate the squadron. From there other guns can pick them off and psykers make one run away with ease.

Some Vets in Chims, some vets in Vendettas. Thus far I've been running Vendis in a squadron and it's working fine. I'd like to split them up, but Nob Bikers, etc. If I know I'm not facing Nob Bikers, one squadron of 1 and 1 of 2.

Vets in Chimeras actually work great for "holding the line" so to speak because Land Raiders are afraid to get close.

Colossus is there to nuke enemy objective holders. Cheap combo, and either they get off the objectives (win for me) or they stand there and die (win for me). So all good.

Your math on the Marines in Cover vs. Hydra isn't correct. You're taking a 4+ cover save when they should have a 3+ armor. Not a huge deal, but Hydras do a little worse than what you've got. I still think the Hydra is a steal, though.

bigtmac68 wrote:I would go with the bomb, simply because I refuse to give meltaguns to bs 3 models. I NEVER hit with them.

But half the time, I hit ALL the time!

Recklessfable wrote:
But half the time, I hit ALL the time!

Was that an Anchorman reference?

I tried out the executioner and it is quite effective killing many terminators. I still like my Demolishers though.

Still haven't tried out the Colossus but against armies that rush you the 24 minimum range seems like an issue. Str6 ap 3 ignores cover seems very nice though.

Thank you for pointing that out. I fixed the math on marines in cover.

I too think the new IG will be competitive, but there are a few things I wanted to address.

The Valk/Vend are on a 6" tall flying stand with a base that has less of a footprint than a Chimera chassis. You can easily pack in tanks underneath the Valk/Vend hull.

- Sourclams

I'm fairly sure, this is not legal. You can't "hover" over the top of another unit. You can move over it, but not end your move on top of it. I could be wrong, so correct me if so.

Deamons do better piecemeal? Seriously? You do know what happens to armies that are half the points cost of the opposition for most of the game?

- OddJob


Please realise, that half the units in the army, does not equal half the points. It could very well be 3/4 of the points in the first wave of Daemons that drop. Not arguing whether you are right about the odds, but you are certainly not right about the point spread.


Thanks,


Clay

Most of the template seems quite solid for the intended role(s) and indeed leaves enough room for customization. I personally still think the INQ is a gimmick. As has been pointed out, he can only guard a limited area, and it is far from certain that he will cause any casualties to matter. If I were a Daemon player, I'd simply DS somewhere else or take my chances.

The battle psykers will come in very handy against Fateweaver - if they hit, that is. They will be a priority target, and they are squishy. I realize they're sitting in a Chimera but that is not very resilient either.

sourclams wrote:Park the Chimera sideways in front of the Hydras to completely obscure at least 1; due to allocation rules, if you conceal 100% of the facing of one vehicle, then you can claim a 3+ cover save on any one shot that hits the squadron.

I've said it in another thread but I will point it out again: The turret is part of the facing, irrespective of how it swivels and where it points at. If you obscure 100 % of your Hydra (which is impossible with a Chimera because of its lower silhouette), you completely block LOS to the tank. Obscuring 100 % of the hull does not equal obscuring 100 % of the tank, so as long as the shooter can see the turret, he will be in the right arc. Secondly, I don't think it would be too hard to get rid of a Chimera parked sideways in the first place.

Twin-linking weapons for infantry foot squads only works versus armor (or monsterous creatur/s).. Just thought i'd point that out as it reduces the effectivness of using infantry with orders. - Although conversely anti-cover-save orders will be more useful vs mid-range ap weapons on light infantry. Plasma on MEQ's will likewise benifit from orders - if only thier on foot!

Most of what I have seen here in regards to stating the new IG auto trumps daemons is based solely upon the strength a particular army list and does not take into account other factors such mission rules and terrain. I think it's safe to say the new IG is a lot stronger in general but it is my no means an auto win. Many of the reasons to support this opinion have already been presented here and elsewhere in these forums.

G

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Most of what I have seen here in regards to stating the new IG auto trumps daemons is based solely upon the strength a particular army list and does not take into account other factors such mission rules and terrain. I think it's safe to say the new IG is a lot stronger in general but it is my no means an auto win. Many of the reasons to support this opinion have already been presented here and elsewhere in these forums.

G

G

Demon players as a whole have been neglecting bolt of tzeentch. A handful of that shot can equalize a mech army PDQ. I think too many people stopped taking it because it doesn't kill land raiders. Which is not a great reason not to take it. It pops rhinos, land speeders, attack bikes, chimeras, hellhounds, wave serpents, devilfish... all the stuff that can get away from charges for a couple turns.

Demons who have been winning tourneys by just landing and running on turn one, then saying 'go' aren't going to beat mech guard. But sniper princes, railtongues, and heralds on chariots can have immediate impact of the 'you are less mobile' variety.

I've been stomping lots of people with my new IG list. But these people haven't made a single adjustment yet. I think everyone in my group is going to get one more look at my list in a game, then they are going to add in the tweaks. Then I'll come out with some new batreps. Which will likely seem less "sjy is falling" than the first wave was.

Demons need to start showing some respect to mech armies. It's silly that some haven't yet. Once they do that, they could be right back in there. Immune to weaken resolve is great, but adding shooting can also mitigate lash. And charging transports in order to 'reveal' the units inside is not sound strategy. Bunch yourself up and await template.

To summarize, less red and green, more blue

As far as daemons go, I'm just not afraid of that with a mono-tzeetnch list. It's definitely not a gimme but it will be a fair fight.

Lack of anti armor shooting is an inherent drawback of running a Daemons list. Khorne has next to none, Slaanesh has none, and Nurgle has next to none. That means the only way to get significant antitank is to run Soul Grinders with BS3, Heralds of Tzeentch, Horrors, DPs of Tzeentch (competing with SGs), and Flamers with the upgrade.

That's a maximum of:

3x Prince
4x Herald
3x Flamer
6x Horror
------------------
16 Bolts of Tz

Is it likely that someone will run a mono-Tzeentch army? I've seen 0 tournament lists that look like this.

So cut it in half, and you're down to about 2-4 BS4 Bolts and 2-3 BS3 bolts. That's not nearly enough anti tank to take on a mech list competently. First turn, you potentially kill 2 AV12 tanks, 2nd turn 1, and then all your stuff is probably dead because you can't outshoot a mech army with Daemons.

sourclams wrote:Lack of anti armor shooting is an inherent drawback of running a Daemons list. Khorne has next to none, Slaanesh has none, and Nurgle has next to none. That means the only way to get significant antitank is to run Soul Grinders with BS3, Heralds of Tzeentch, Horrors, DPs of Tzeentch (competing with SGs), and Flamers with the upgrade.

That's a maximum of:

3x Prince
4x Herald
3x Flamer
6x Horror
------------------
16 Bolts of Tz

Is it likely that someone will run a mono-Tzeentch army? I've seen 0 tournament lists that look like this.

So cut it in half, and you're down to about 2-4 BS4 Bolts and 2-3 BS3 bolts. That's not nearly enough anti tank to take on a mech list competently. First turn, you potentially kill 2 AV12 tanks, 2nd turn 1, and then all your stuff is probably dead because you can't outshoot a mech army with Daemons.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/230449.page

Then obviously you don't read through the batrep's Now you can say you've seen one! It's not quite what you listed there because I run large blocks of horrors but it's close.

Warmaster's tzneetch list is well proven and solid as like heavy metal. I am currently working on a pure tzneetch list using old models from my defunct l&td list. I call it shake and bake.

G

Don't know why you'd say that. It can't beat nob bikers, horde/mech Orks, or Land Raider spam. It also has a lot of trouble against various assault armies.

What are you talking about ? He beat job bikers with the list. You really need to be careful what you say or you are going to develop a rep quickly as a BSer.

G

Actually, if you look at the batreps, it did in fact beat a dual Nob Biker list. Modified KP, true, but still. If that had been an objective mission it likely would have been a clearer win. Sure, it's beatable, but really most Daemon armies will struggle against the lists you mention, so meh.

What are you talking about ? He beat job bikers with the list. You really need to be careful what you say or you are going to develop a rep quickly as a BSer.

Right, because one Batrep is a good indication of total effectiveness. Sorry I base my observations on mathematical probability. Even if you totally max out on Bolt of Tzeentch you only get half your units in turn 1 and you only land 5-6 wounds before cover saves.

And then 2 squads of Nob Bikers kill half your army.

Weren't you the one advocating multi charge and the necessity of killing Bikers in turn 1? Tzeentch Daemons can't beat them in shooting and can't beat them in HtH.

Right, because there's no such thing as terrain, or sacrificial squads, or player skill, and nob bikers just auto win. Tzeentch flamers do a number on nobs, especially after blue scribes pavane them. Bolts are good, but you're right can't do everything.

Nob bikers have a good list, and are powerful against daemons. This list stands a chance if played well. Few daemon lists can say that (maaaaaybe mono-Khorne).

In any case, this is way OT at this point.

Mathematical probability is not reality. Not by a long shot.

G

You're right. Plasma pistols kill Land Raiders all the time. Just use tactics!

Right, because there's no such thing as terrain, or sacrificial squads, or player skill, and nob bikers just auto win. Tzeentch flamers do a number on nobs, especially after blue scribes pavane them. Bolts are good, but you're right can't do everything.

No believe me, I hear what you're saying, and I like seeing how I can apply "underdog" lists to beat metagame kings, but mono-tzeentch is not nearly competitive enough to be called a 'tournament list'. You've got okay shooting, okay anti-mech, and bad assault. This would be alright if you also had high survivability, but T3-T4 units with a 4++ do not have the staying power to only be 'okay' at their relativley high point cost.

I have playtested my tzneetch successfully against lash spam. I am going to try and play against new mech IG this weekend. It's funny to see you make a blanket statement about tzneetch while in this same thread you have made repeated requests to back up everything with solid facts.

G

It's funny that you base competitiveness off of not playing against competitive lists. Go try out 3 Land Raider marines, horde/mech Orks, Nob Bikers, or SAFH eldar.

Let me know how it went. No, playing against some scrub with no experience versus Daemons doesn't count.

Meta lists are just that and people like you buy into them. As far as playing scrubs goes the state of Florida has some of the top gamers in the country and I have played my share of games against them. Are you going to play at the Necro this July?

G

Not worth arguing about. I've posted back up for my comments and I like the mono-tzeentch list.

Sour clams talks a lot of junk.

G

...and I unsubscribe to the thread

Just for the record landraider spam is not a top tier list. Mega melta lists can smoke it all day long.

G

Land raider spam crushes nobz and daemons (which isn't hard) all day long, but if your assumption that any list can be beat by some other rock paper scissor list, then by definition there are no top tier lists.

You have decided to disagree with everything I say based on your own assumptions.

You accuse me of talking 'junk'.

The requests that people are PMing me for advice on their lists suggests that they do indeed want my point of view.

Accept yourviewpoints, and move on. I'm sorry I didn't want to be in your Wrecking Crew club.

Actually daemons can shred landraider spam. I've done it more than enough to say I can do it consistently. Don't go getting all emo... This is Dakka.

G

And green bow fly kills another thread.

Just for the record landraider spam is not a top tier list. Mega melta lists can smoke it all day long.

Top tier lists are top tier based on their ability to counter a large percentage of the field and secure victory consistently. The definition of a top tier list isn't one that is unbeatable but one that is really hard to beat for a majority of the competition. You can design any army to beat any other, but if doing so compromises your ability to take forces that are not your specific target then you're likely not going to impact the one you're there to beat.

Landraider spam is not top tier by any means. The best it can do is sit on objectives. Lash spam will rape it with their oblits. It is a misconception to think nob bikers can't destroy it either. That's the just the way it is and spamming this type list on a blog will not make it anymore effective.

G

But Tzeentch Daemons, now, there's a competitor!

yikes, this thread turned to a steaming pile

I forget what this thread is about.

*reads OP*

Oh yeah, building a solid core for a Guard list to expand on.

Maybe the OP needs its own thread...

The first few pages of this thread are pure gold, lets not ruin it just because someone is playing Devil's advocate. Just as a general statement I believe it is foolish to state that this list will rock the meta game or lose to a particular army as there is a whole lot of points left unspent and how they are spent will determine the armies efectiveness. Anyway.
@Soulclam I am assuming that this core was designed with 1750 pt games in mind, what units from this core would you suggest to keep or drop for a 1500 pt game ,as this is the standard limit for all comps in my area.

Wow, I think I'll unsubscribe now. This thread was immensely helpful for the first couple of pages though. Thanks for your anaylsis and insight into the new IG book sourclams!

In attempt to get this thread back on topic.



Psychic Choir. One unit minimum or two?

Personally, I think the fact that you really need them in a chimera, means that one unit is expensive enough. Two units, although still powerful, is not needed.

Yeah I think against many armies two is overkill as they can keep a large number of their squads in transports and the ones that aren't are fearless. The only problem I see with only taking one unit though is that your opponent will spend their first turn doing everything in their power to blow that unit off the board. That is not a bad thing per se, as if they're doing that they aren't going after the rest of your army but if you're playing an army that has some super unit you were relying on your choir to make run, it could be game ending to lose the choir.

Tough choice, I think it will come down to the point value of the game. Under 2k, I'm thinking one, over 2k, two is almost required IMO.

I think having them in a Chimera, hidden behind a Leman Russ or another Chimera or terrain, makes them very difficult to kill with an opening turn salvo. The fact that both their powers are assault powers gives them a lot of flexibility in deployment.

BoxANT wrote:In attempt to get this thread back on topic.



Psychic Choir. One unit minimum or two?

Personally, I think the fact that you really need them in a chimera, means that one unit is expensive enough. Two units, although still powerful, is not needed.

I'm curently playing 2 units. That will change when the meta shifts into something that is more heavily mechanized/less reliant on slogging infantry and such. The PSBs are simply fantastic against things like Nob Bikes, Eldar Bikes, horde orks, Kairos, big termie units, etc. With this in mind, while I keep seeing lots of armies with composition similar to those lists, I'll probably keep running 2. One unit may be all you need though, I've been really wishing I could free up points for another LR variant in my list and the first thing I see to drop is a PSB.

The way I see it, the PSB is a pretty deent counter to a fair amount of very strong lists right now. While those lists remain prevalent, I will be playing at least one, but most likely 2.

For an all-comers list I think one psych squad is all one should take.

First of all, eldar fubars it, mech fubars it and fearless fubars it.

Having one to deal with situational tactical issues is good enough imho.

I've found this "core list" to be incredibly helpful. Thanks for posting it sourclams!

Now I just need to figure out if buying three valkyrie kits is worth it...what alternatives are there to the awesomeness of triple-las troop fast skimmer transports that is the Vendetta? =p

Caffran9 wrote:
I'm curently playing 2 units. That will change when the meta shifts into something that is more heavily mechanized/less reliant on slogging infantry and such. The PSBs are simply fantastic against things like Nob Bikes, Eldar Bikes, horde orks, Kairos, big termie units, etc. With this in mind, while I keep seeing lots of armies with composition similar to those lists, I'll probably keep running 2. One unit may be all you need though, I've been really wishing I could free up points for another LR variant in my list and the first thing I see to drop is a PSB.

The way I see it, the PSB is a pretty deent counter to a fair amount of very strong lists right now. While those lists remain prevalent, I will be playing at least one, but most likely 2.

imweasel wrote:For an all-comers list I think one psych squad is all one should take.

First of all, eldar fubars it, mech fubars it and fearless fubars it.

Having one to deal with situational tactical issues is good enough imho.

The happy medium that I find myself settling on is one squad of 6-8 psykers in a Chimera and another squad of 4-8 (leaning towards 5) psykers on foot.

I personally do not think that Ld9 is reliable enough against lists like Biker Nobs where you absolutely need to get a weaken resolve off or else you're boned. However, like others are noting, dedicating 300 points to a relatively gimmicky (but still powerful) unit core is best avoided. With the one squad of chimera psykers, you've got the mobile, protected Weaken Resolve bomb and the other backup minimal psyker squad on foot is easily hidden behind vehicles/terrain until needed, but with a pie plate at decent strength is still a good firebase for matchups that don't require Weaken Resolve bombs.

DrDaBomB wrote:I've found this "core list" to be incredibly helpful. Thanks for posting it sourclams!

Now I just need to figure out if buying three valkyrie kits is worth it...what alternatives are there to the awesomeness of triple-las troop fast skimmer transports that is the Vendetta? =p

Warms the cockles of my heart. Glad it's of use to you. Does anybody have ideas for whacky Vendetta/Valkyrie conversions? I personally am using 3 FW Lightnings, but since they cost even more than the plastic model that's not a viable option for most folks.

I could see kitbashed Devilfish making a good proxy.

So far I think I'm going to have to suck it up and buy the GW Valks. To convert them to Vendettas I'm planning on putting a TL Lascannon under each wing and then the rid one under the nose (or perhaps split it up and put one half of it on each side of the cockpit where the normal multilaser mounts). It is a pretty unique looking model, so its hard to really come up with something of similar proportions in terms of a conversion.

Using a Devilfish as a base is an interesting idea though, I hadn't quite considered that because its so sleek in comparison to all the IG/Imperium armor that looks much more crude.

Caffran9 wrote:So far I think I'm going to have to suck it up and buy the GW Valks. To convert them to Vendettas I'm planning on putting a TL Lascannon under each wing and then the rid one under the nose (or perhaps split it up and put one half of it on each side of the cockpit where the normal multilaser mounts). It is a pretty unique looking model, so its hard to really come up with something of similar proportions in terms of a conversion.

Using a Devilfish as a base is an interesting idea though, I hadn't quite considered that because its so sleek in comparison to all the IG/Imperium armor that looks much more crude.

I think you will want more than 3 vendetta's.

They are quite good.

As for Vendettas, I am going to buy Valks and just slap some magnets on them Then use plasticard and small plastic tubes to convert up some cheap TL LC.

As for the number of Vends, that is a tough call.

1 for sure, perhaps 2. That depends on if I choose to run a DevilDog or BaneWolf.

I generally build my army lists while trying to remain somewhat accurate from a fluff standpoint and only to have fun, not build the ultimate list to see how how uber-powerful or unbalanced I can make things. I am also not that familiar with a guard army as I just picked up the new codex today and in the past I usually only played against some treadheads under the prior guard codex. I have collected guard in the past but only infantry and more for the painting and modeling to this point.

I understand this is meant to be some over the top kind of list and I presume you would only ever use it in tournaments as it seems extremely counter to the guard background and fluff, especially throwing those large groups of psykers out there as they are meant to be minimal as most of the witches end up on the black ships, not traipsiong around with guard in large numbers if they appear in a guard army at all due to the other issues they bring with them. Based on the background I would have thought that GW would have made it a bit riskier to run Psykers in a traditionally superstitious lot such as the IG, maybe making leadership tests to see how often some freaked out or overly pious guardsman decides to use friendly fire to cleanse the Emperors realm.

This is all obviously just my thoughts on the matter of using somewhat unbalanced anti-fluff lists but i do have a question as I thought the title of this post was interesting in the first place. So the question is that if you wanted to create a "realistic" core of 900-1000 per the guard fluff what would you use as opposed to the list proposed earlier? The idea being to remain competitive while sticking to the fluff. Can it be done? If so, what would such a list look like?

There are definitely other viable lists out there and a friend of mine, Dave from the Wrecking Crew, has come up with a real monster of an army for guard,.

G

Just remember, the Vindi's footprint makes a landraider look like an old school rhino by comparison

( I say this looking at three of them freshly assembled sitting on top of my desk and the three of them take up more much space than the remaining 4 russes and 7 chimeras of my IG Army. )

Seeing them now I cant imagine not brining them in from reservse just because they will eat up my entire deployment zone.

I really think that the size alone of the model balances out the cost as it will just be so damn hard to maneuver these things around a board without taking dangerous terrain tests every turn due to the insane footprint of the model.

imweasel wrote:For an all-comers list I think one psych squad is all one should take.

First of all, eldar fubars it, mech fubars it and fearless fubars it.

Having one to deal with situational tactical issues is good enough imho.

Being able to drop S9 pieplates is not exactly being "fubared"

Vendettas are indeed worth it. The fire power they put out is good and their ability to move quickly to deploy troops on a far objective is something no other unit can do. They are somewhat vulnerable being a huge target with av12. However if your fielding Psyker Battle Squads and Executioners and maybe some Artillery or hydras there is a target saturation and unless your opponent has a large amount of anti tank they have to make choices with their fire.

The squadron of 3 takes up a large amount of space stayingt together and is difficult to maneuver on terrain heavy tables. Seperate Fast attack choices have an advantage of no immobllized = destroyed and they can transport troops to seperate objectives or drop melta vets near seperate land raiders or hard vehicles. Maybe as a compromise going with a squadron of 2 and then 1 by itself would allieviate this as well as give you another transport that can go to a different objective in the d3+2 objective missions as well as not having all your eggs in one basket of a squadron. The squadron does have advantage of concentrated firepower against nob bikers so has some merit.

2 Psykers squads might be the way to go. In some situations you need to get that weaken resolve off and although leadership 9 is good you can fail at a critical time or your opponent can focus fire on your psyker squad.

Green Blow Fly wrote:There are definitely other viable lists out there and a friend of mine, Dave from the Wrecking Crew, has come up with a real monster of an army for guard,.

G

It is so insane and I can't believe no one else has come up with it.

bigtmac68 wrote:Just remember, the Vindi's footprint makes a landraider look like an old school rhino by comparison

There's actually a lot of problems rules-wise with it, and you run into them in just about every game.

For example, the hull is huge, but the actual base is smaller than a Chimera. Since it's on such a tall stand, you can actually pack in a lot of stuff around the base, and although the hull hangs over it, it's "perfectly legal". Unless GW comes out with some other way to define the footprint, there's a lot of space underneath the model that you can utilize.

Green Blow Fly wrote:There are definitely other viable lists out there and a friend of mine, Dave from the Wrecking Crew, has come up with a real monster of an army for guard,.

G

Are you allowed to tell?

By the way, I really like this core. I'll take out the Hydras as I don't play against too many skimmers, but the rest of this is really stinking good.

Also I'll be taking out the Inq+ Mystics as I don't play against deepstrikers.

Actually, thinking about it, the Hydras would be insane vs. a rhino rush army...which is what my BT friend is thinking of doing...

Vladsimpaler wrote:Actually, thinking about it, the Hydras would be insane vs. a rhino rush army...which is what my BT friend is thinking of doing...

Yeah. As far as I can tell, hydras are at least as good as lootas. And lootas are good.

Vendettas are actually better at popping rhinos if you're playing against a pure rhino rush army. By "better", I mean fewer points spent per penetration result. I don't have my laptop on me but I think the Vendetta was something like 90 points per immobilization or worse and the Hydra was 180 points per. (in order to guarantee yourself one immobilization result you have to pay 180 points for Hydras, but only 90 for Vendettas)

The Hydra is great as a gunline vehicle, though, so I hardly think you'll be disappointed fighting rhino rush with a lot of hydras.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Are you allowed to tell?

I think he is at least waiting until he hits a big tourney with it. It will be out after that anyway.

By the way does anyone know when AB updates with new lists? This codex is quite annoying to do by hand...Demons weren't out very long before theirs was done for it, but IIRC Chaos Mortals for WHFB still hasn't been done.

Park the Chimera sideways in front of the Hydras to completely obscure at least 1; due to allocation rules, if you conceal 100% of the facing of one vehicle, then you can claim a 3+ cover save on any one shot that hits the squadron.

Are you not including the hydra's turret when determining line of sight to the facing? It must be hard to completely conceal four long autocannon barrels.

The Hydra turret is on the rear armor "facing". Likewise barrels don't count for shooting *at* vehicles, only from them.

Re: Vendetta Conversions -
My Godhammer Pattern Lascannons on my Land Raiders are magentized. It was easy to just put a magent under the wing and click it on. Note, I tried it at the standard wing hard point and didn't like the look, so I slid open the door and have it pretty much flush against the fuselage. Not planning on having Vendettas transporting anything so loss of access points doesn't bother me (if this is even an issue).

The third TL Lascannon required some work. The Lascannon that comes with the Valk has space above it being taken up by some sensor thingy. I cut that off and fit on a Razorback Lascannon where the sensor was (could only fit the Lascannon barrel, not the little support part underneath it). Fits nicely with a little shaving. I've also magnetized that bit so I can swap it out for the Multi-Laser if I decide to go Valk. I'll try and post some pics later.

I had bought a Land Raider Terminus earlier with the intent of only making a Land Raider, that gave me a source of good Lascannon bits.

Edit - Pics:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/31102-Vendetta%20Conversion.html
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/31103-Magnetized%20Lascannons.html

Edit 2: I suppose I should put this in the Modeling and Conversion forum but you don't need to glue the "roof" of the Valk on, so you can take in off if you want to paint the inside. When you do stick it on, it locks in place nicely. Same for the wings, I didn't glue mine and because they are staying on so well I don't plan too, I think it will make transport a lot easier.

Im personally going to do what ^ he did for two sets (the ones on each side of the cockpit) then I am going to try and replace the front sensor with predator lascannon ends.

I like that conversion though, and you get a vendetta that can shoot backwards hehe.

To the OP:

Nice work! I think you got an strong idea of what is needed to deal with the armies to beat. Here are some comments/queations.

1) The size of the Vendetta concerns me. It is near impossible to hide them or claim a cover save so every anti-tank gun in the opponents army will be able to fire away unhindered. Being only AV12 and in a squadron its survivability is really bad.

2) The footprint of the Vendetta. As I understand it one can not move under the outlines of the skimmer so they will really clutter up the table. Not to mention the difficulties regarding dangerous terrain. If the base is considered the footprint this does obviously not apply (if it is, where can I find the RAW?).

3) Even though I do not expect the Vendettas to live to long I cant think of anything as cost-effective and flexible to take out Oblits at long range.

4) The Hydras are to situational and do not seem counter anything in the armies to beat. I would drop them and call it a 677 pt core.

5) What about countering 4 Battle Wagons + Gazzy?

HYdras counter SMF and Mech Eldar is one of the armies near the top. They also help slap wounds onto units like Nob Bikes to set them up for a WR. They can also demolish light armor (mech SM/Chaos is also very good). They're dirt cheap at 75pts each too, making their utility and output a great asset.

Vendettas help against 4 Battlewagons because their maneuverability can get them around to the weaker side armor. If it is a KP mission then you may have to give up a couple of KPs in the form of your melta vets, but they should average 1 dead tank of any AV per round of melta shooting at 6" range. When 4 Battlewagons + Gaz becaomes more popular I bet you'll start seeing more Vanquishers to help deal with the AV14 front on them.

Keep in mind that this core is designed around dealing with the armies that are well known and established to be at the top of the game right now (I won't disagree that 4 Battlewagons and Ghaghkull is a very strong army... it just isn't popular right now). As armies develop to deal with ho IG change the meta, strong lists against them will become more popular (personally lots of Battlewagons seems like a good way to go against IG to me).

Just read what Caff wrote. He nailed all the salient points.

Kadon
Nice conversion. Wwill be using the same method for the wings but will make the 3rd one nose mounted.

arnaroe
Running the Valkyrie's as seperate Fast attack choices makes them slightly less vulnerable as they have to shoot at seperate targets and immobilized doesn't kill you. This is a disadvantage with kill points and against nob bikers when you want to get wounds on the nobs and not the warboss but in other cases of delivering troops to different objectives or meltaing different Land Raiders and firing on different Rhinos and transports it seems to be better over all. Maybe 2 in a squadron and 1 by itself as a compromise.

Ended up that sourclams core units ended up all in my list. Tried Hydras and they do pretty well against Mech Eldar or for killing Rhino as mentioned. Might cut down to two Hydras though and see how that goes.

The Psyker battle squads should have 8 psykers and and overseer so the template is strength 8 and can insta kill Nobs or Marines.

Might want 2 Psyker battle squads as with one you can fail the leadership 9 psychic test or their chimera can get shaken.

To be honest I look at this new guard codex and I see some decent firepower, but the balance is the poor BS and low toughness (in all regards.) Just because we all love guard and want them to be viable doesn't mean they are going to be.

I look at just this thread and I see things mirroring the last space marine release. People excited that the new army that is their favorite might be good, heck even broken (there are still people I play who think marines are broken LOL) but a few months out of the gate we saw that marines weren't anything to even consider. All it was was a lot of toys, and that is what I think this codex is.

It's unfortunate that in order for this codex to stand any chance vs. demons (and thus have a chance competitively) they still have to ally with DH for the mystics. There is no way guard can beat good demons without that.

Some mathhammer needed:

Hydra vs. AV12 skimmer moving flat out
4 shots
3 hit
0,48 pens

Vendetta vs. AV12 skimmer moving flat out (or a Heavy Weapon Team with 3 lascannons and "Bring it Down!")
3 shots
2,25 hits
1,125 pens (0,56 with save)
(vs. Wave Serpent: 0,74 pens; 0,37 with save)

So yes the Hydra is marginally better mostly because its cheaper. But as soon as the skimmer has no save it becomes much worse then the Vendetta or other high S units. And like you said this template was suppose to take on the most popular GT armies and the Eldar army of choice is Council were not to many can be expected (due to Council costing 500+ pt). Would it not be better to include in a template of this kind some way to deal with the real threat instead of the support?

As for the Hydra vs. other units. Yes, it will slap a wound or two on Nob bikers but those wounded Nobs will either be running off or be the punchbag for the lascannons next turn. A waist of shots if you ask me. And vs. light armour, most units in the IG army can do that anyway so I see no need to add a unit that specializes in it.

I agree that the Vendettas can help against Wagons, both as long range support and as a transport.

And just to be clear, I appreciate what you did and am only trying to assist in fine tuning.

Avariel:
Yes, 2 and 1 might work. Need to try that. Thank!

^Dont forget you also then have to roll 5,6 and then get through the 4+ save.

PanamaG wrote:^Dont forget you also then have to roll 5,6 and then get through the 4+ save.

What are you referring to? In the lascannon example I take that into account (although its a 4+ to penetrate vs. non-Serpents).

Edit: Ah... the Battle Wagons! Yes, but with scout on the Vendetta a side/rear shot is a very realistic possibility.

arnaroe wrote:Some mathhammer needed:

Hydra vs. AV12 skimmer moving flat out
4 shots
3 hit
0,48 pens

Vendetta vs. AV12 skimmer moving flat out (or a Heavy Weapon Team with 3 lascannons and "Bring it Down!")
3 shots
2,25 hits
1,125 pens (0,56 with save)
(vs. Wave Serpent: 0,74 pens; 0,37 with save)

Some more mathhammer is needed. Dakka's table formatting sucks so expect this to be a mess:

Hydra AV11 AV12 AV13 4+ AV11 4+ AV12 4+ AV13
Glance 0.5 0.5 0.5
Penetrate 1 0.5 0
Immo or Dest: 0.583333333 0.333333333 0.083333333 0.583333333 0.333333333 0.083333333
Pts/Result 128.5714 225.0000 900.0000 128.5714 225.0000 900.0000

Vendetta

Glance 0.5 0.5 0.5
Penetrate 2 1 1
Immo or Dest: 1.083333333 0.583333333 0.583333333 0.541666667 0.291666667 0.291666667
Pts/Result 120.0000 222.8571 222.8571 240.0000 445.7143 445.7143


Let me summarize: Against AV11 and 12, Hydras and Vendettas are almost identical (although the Vendetta is between 3 and 8 points cheaper) for immobilizing or destroying the vehicle. This is "points per immobilization+", or how many points you need to spend to statistically guarantee yourself to stop the transport. Vendettas are much better against AV13 and 14, obviously.

Against SMF, however, you need to spend between 128 and 220 points more on Vendettas to stop AV11 and 12 "moving fast".

So... to really stop Mech Eldar from dumping Fire Dragons into your heavy tanks, you really do need the hydras, because nothing else is going to do it in the one turn you have before your Russes die.

So yes the Hydra is marginally better mostly because its cheaper

Its effectiveness against SMF isn't marginal, it's in the realm of 200 points.

And vs. light armour, most units in the IG army can do that anyway so I see no need to add a unit that specializes in it.

I'd be very careful with that assumption. You need multiple line squads or a HWS with autocannons to put out the firepower that a Hydra can, and the options stack up to be less effective, more expensive, and/or more fragile than a Hydra.

And just to be clear, I appreciate what you did and am only trying to assist in fine tuning.

Understood.

Yes, Hydras are better v.s. SMF but in the scenario you are trying to counter you seem to forget that you still have at least 9 twin-linked lascannon to deal with the threat. Adding another 225 pt to tackle that specific situation seems a waist to me since you could spend those points on units that are good v.s. said skimmers AND oblits/bikers. So instead of taking the Hydras two more Vendettas could be fielded (or anything that has 24"+ S8+ AP2 or better) giving you enough fire power to deal with a a skimmer or two moving fast AND be much more efficient dealing with the other armies. Besides, how many Tanks can a Council army really field? Id say max 4 and not all of them are going to be filled with Fire Dragons.

I'd be very careful with that assumption. You need multiple line squads or a HWS with autocannons to put out the firepower that a Hydra can, and the options stack up to be less effective, more expensive, and/or more fragile than a Hydra.

And multiple Chimeras with multi-lasers, most Leman Russ variants and of course the Vendettas. As far as I know all these units are going to be in the IG army to beat. But beside that how many competitive armies are going to be fielding AV10-11 en mass? Daemons - none; Lash - maybe a Rhino or two; Eldar Bikers - none (don't see many War Walkers or Vypers around); Nob Bikers - maybe some trucks or tracks.

PanamaG wrote:To be honest I look at this new guard codex and I see some decent firepower, but the balance is the poor BS and low toughness (in all regards.) Just because we all love guard and want them to be viable doesn't mean they are going to be.

I look at just this thread and I see things mirroring the last space marine release. People excited that the new army that is their favorite might be good, heck even broken (there are still people I play who think marines are broken LOL) but a few months out of the gate we saw that marines weren't anything to even consider. All it was was a lot of toys, and that is what I think this codex is.

It's unfortunate that in order for this codex to stand any chance vs. demons (and thus have a chance competitively) they still have to ally with DH for the mystics. There is no way guard can beat good demons without that.

I disagree with this idea, I think IG has a better matchup against Daemons of the common varieties (ie anything but mono-tzeentch, that is a tough game for IG) than almost everyone else out there.

Kairos is not a threat regardless of whether or not there is an IQ present (in fact you have to deal with Kairos on your turn since you have to Weaken-Resolve him, then pile 9 wounds on him, so the IQ is irrelevent. A PBS is needed though) and if the list doesn't have Kairos/he's already gone, it is pretty simple to shoot what you can, feed whats left tanks that aren't important, and then shoot them off the table on your turns. There will most likely be 10+ meltas on the table, mostly BS4, to deal with things like Grinders. Bring it Down makes sure it dies though on average 3 BS4 meltas at 6" range will kill a tank of any armor value.

Bloodcrushers without Kairos around are going to take a whole lot of damage from 5 plasma cannon shots per tank, or numerous str8+ ap2+ big blasts. The troops choices are dragged down by rate of fire same as always, and FNP on things like PBs gets mitigated by the same weapons that can hurt units like Bloodcrushers so badly (plasma cannons, demolisher cannons, etc).

PanamaG wrote:
It's unfortunate that in order for this codex to stand any chance vs. demons (and thus have a chance competitively) they still have to ally with DH for the mystics. There is no way guard can beat good demons without that.

Agreed.

Same fuss was made over Marines and they have turned to be not as good as the last codex.

G

Here is the thing about Fateweaver. First most people have not played against the Fateweaver and are going on opinion. The fact of the matter is that the Fateweaver runs away more often that you imagine. One turn of shooting all your guns at Fateweaver is all the rest of the big wave needs to get into multi-charge range.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Here is the thing about Fateweaver. First most people have not played against the Fateweaver and are going on opinion. The fact of the matter is that the Fateweaver runs away more often that you imagine. One turn of shooting all your guns at Fateweaver is all the rest of the big wave needs to get into multi-charge range.

G

I remember a game w/ FW and two 7 strong squads of BC. He DS right in front of my LRD w/ INQ+2mystics and laughed off my cannon.

Next turn I fired everything I had at FW and got 1 unsaved wound on it (w/ a humble multilaser). Emperor be saved he actually failed his leadership test.

But the damage was done.

2nd turn HUGE multicharge with both BC units and it was all down hill from there.

Still gives me nightmares :( But at least WR helps (so does BiD!).

Green Blow Fly wrote:Here is the thing about Fateweaver. First most people have not played against the Fateweaver and are going on opinion. The fact of the matter is that the Fateweaver runs away more often that you imagine.

I've run 15 games with Fateweaver and he's run away twice. He's still Ld9--he passes that test 5/6 of the time--he'll run far less often than he passes and with a lynchpin like Fateweaver you can't afford to waste all that shooting to put 3 wounds on him. As the other poster noted, if you expend that much ordnance into fateweaver, he's already done his job protecting the other nasties.

Thankfully Weaken Resolve laughs at the space chicken.

sourclams wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:
As the other poster noted, if you expend that much ordnance into fateweaver, he's already done his job protecting the other nasties.

Exactly.

The last tournament (local team tourney) I played in Fateweaver ran away twice out of three games. Maybe we working him too hard for a little Tzneetch daemon.

G