WHY DO THEY?
i mean if you hate them dont play the game.
if you hate the rules dont play it
if you hate the price build your own
i mean you wouldnt torch a suv for the enviroment the go to a hummer dealership?
i like gw i think there prices are fair and i like the rules

facepalm.jpg

LEAVE GW ALONE!!!

Well I'm not a big fan of GW. But I do like the game. They don't seem to make great decisions business wise. As their products become less popular they raise the price to create a larger barrier of entry into the game for newer players. When they should be lowering it to see a boom of new players then raising the prices in better economic times. They really ignore a lot of gray areas and weird loopholes in their rules that could easily be solved with a little playtesting, at least in 40k anyway. I have no real complaints about Fantasy.

Those are the two things you really asked to talk about, but I'd like to add a third. The staff at the GW stores are always kind of weird. I know they are nerds, I know they are trying to sell me stuff. But don't push me to buy stuff. It's really inappropriate for this hobby. It's already pretty expensive, you don't need to remind me the guard codex came out five times. I know, I don't like guard, I don't really like 40k at the moment. So stop telling me. It's just a personal thing, and I've never really been a geeks geek. It's why I don't really ever go there for anything I can get at the local store I go to. But sometimes I have to check if I'm in the area.

Edit: I wish my response was as awesome and hilarious as the others... damn my lack of judgment.
Edit: Also Garret, work on your spelling and stuff dude, really. Your from America, I'm certain it's the only language you speak.

garret wrote:WHY DO THEY?
i mean if you hate them dont play the game.
if you hate the rules dont play it
if you hate the price build your own
i mean you wouldnt torch a suv for the enviroment the go to a hummer dealership?
i like gw i think there prices are fair and i like the rules

No, they aren't. I worked a year at Iron Wind Metals (BattleTech, Shadowrun, WarGods of Aegyptus, Ral Partha) - I know how much it costs to produce a metal model, cast it, pack it, and ship it. GW's costs are WAY out of line for character models. Their price increases in general have mainly been naked money grabs, being far, FAR above even the 3%-ish yearly inflation we've been seeing. The price per model for plastic IG, for example, is getting to the $4 US region now. Reaper's doing that with metal. Catalyst Game Labs managed to stuff 24 plastic Mechs into a $40 boxed set along with full-color rulebooks, cardstock charts, maps, and so for. Up until the price of tin tripled a few years ago, IWM was doing metal minis for $5 a model. What's the average PPM in the GW line right now? IIRC, it's somewhere in the $12-13 region.

Moreover, GW corporate polices have been openly admitted to not care about long-term gamers and aimed more toward the short-term tween buyer with a huge disposable income. Yes, it makes money. No, it's neither friendly to the players nor a good way to build a stable customer base.

Yes, I know it's a troll thread. It doesn't make it any less wrong.

Also, ask why people give other people crap for horrible grammar, capitalization, and basic punctuation.


Because they DESERVE it.



Ghidorah

$3.5 for 2 oz of paint seems really fair.........................

I like their models, I don't really like their 40k rules.

In recent years at communication tech has gotten cheaper and other companies have moved towards closer relations with their customer base GW has moved in the opposite direction.

They closed their forums. They stopped publishing FAQs. The stopped running articles with content in their house magazine. Designers no longer post (openly) on web forums. The do not preview army lists for feedback, they release them like writs from the Spase Emporer and expect us to fawn over them, despite obvious rule problems.

For a company whose games require hundreds of dollars AND hundreds of hours of prep to play this is a terrible, terrible, idea.

...and yet we still buy it all up, like well trained animals.

About the FAQs, I have to say that GW has gotten quite a bit better with them recently. Not every single question has been answered, but barring the new IG book, the Lizardmen book, and the WOTR rulebook, every other codex or armybook has had an FAQ. This includes the more recent Dark Elves, Warriors or Chaos, Daemons, Space Marines...etc.

Swordguy wrote:No, they aren't. I worked a year at Iron Wind Metals (BattleTech, Shadowrun, WarGods of Aegyptus, Ral Partha) - I know how much it costs to produce a metal model, cast it, pack it, and ship it. GW's costs are WAY out of line for character models. Their price increases in general have mainly been naked money grabs, being far, FAR above even the 3%-ish yearly inflation we've been seeing. The price per model for plastic IG, for example, is getting to the $4 US region now. Reaper's doing that with metal. Catalyst Game Labs managed to stuff 24 plastic Mechs into a $40 boxed set along with full-color rulebooks, cardstock charts, maps, and so for. Up until the price of tin tripled a few years ago, IWM was doing metal minis for $5 a model. What's the average PPM in the GW line right now? IIRC, it's somewhere in the $12-13 region.

Moreover, GW corporate polices have been openly admitted to not care about long-term gamers and aimed more toward the short-term tween buyer with a huge disposable income. Yes, it makes money. No, it's neither friendly to the players nor a good way to build a stable customer base.

Yes, I know it's a troll thread. It doesn't make it any less wrong.

As somebody will point later on, probably MDG, Iron Wind is not a big company, it doesn´t have brick&mortar stores to "promote" the hobby nor is it a public traded one that apparently HAS A LEGAL OBLIGATION (never heard about this before but UK is a funny place) to maximize profit for shareholders plus a board that want money too, and the personal secretary for the CEO, and the legal dept, and the bean counters, and the communication dept (MIA since 2000)...

So a 4€ plastic guardsman barely covers the costs, GW´s overheads are not enough so you better send a donation now before they go belly up.

M.

PS: Yep, half this post is sarcasm that doesn´t read to well on the net but when I was in college I learnt the going big was supposed to improve your efficiency, scale economies and such, but as usual GW added all the inefficiencies along the way.

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:

LEAVE GW ALONE!!!

I dont like that emo guy in the pic , nor do i like Nofasses Eadhunta .

But , i approve of this post

But seriousely , GW is only half at fault. As they are just like any other buisness and not charity, their ultimate goal = profit.
They'll squeeze as much $ out of their products aslong as the customers allow them too , which we do.
The problem though is this is generally not a nice way to do buisness even if its legit , and instead of lowering the price due to low sales
they just keep raising it. Its sort of like boiling it to the point of no return ( very risky no?)

Personally the 2 thing i hate about GW :

Trying to justify their pricings : " well these minis used to be on pewter and cost a bunch more ,now plastic you are actually saving... "
But er... the problem is, technology gets better, its part of evolving.
I mean before the industrial evolution , normal goods are made by hours of labor. Are we supposed to pay them by the hour x how many people it used to take? OMG NO

Inconsistent /vague rules , and the sloooow response time for adding the fix.

Same old story really. It's a shame when a hobby company gets taken over by big business. On the other hand, it's also a shame when a hobby company makes poor business decisions which put them into the ground.

Personally, my only real beef is with pricing and price related bits. GW is gouging, that's pretty obvious when you look toward the competition who generally aren't doing enough volume to have lower unit production costs than GW or their financial report alluding to the 70+% (if I read the thing right that is) profit margins. GW's prices are the hobby equivalent of a good Scotch, as much as the market will tolerate. I realize it's good business sense and all, but I'm cheap, so I'll bitch about price.

In terms of the GW hate around the weeb, bear two things in mind. First, the internet is a communication medium which people use to complain about things and trade pornography. Second, geeks are GW's core demographic and most of us at least like to think that we know best and often the easiest way to demonstrate that is to tear someone or something down.

In terms of GW though; I like their models, most of them anyway. Their rules are entertaining enough for me and while I'll admit they're not perfect, they work well enough for the games I play. I don't like their pricing because I'm a cheap bastard and some of their packaging pisses me off (Death Cult Assassins in blisters of two when I want to field them in a single unit of three, for example though I'm sure folks can point to other ones). I also get annoyed that I can't find a Fantasy Army for which I like all of the models, but that's me being picky and not wanting another horde.

NO_SUCH_LUCK wrote:...and yet we still buy it all up, like well trained animals.

Of course some of us do everything in our power to get things as cheap as we can.

And some of us spend more money on other companies.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

NO_SUCH_LUCK wrote:...and yet we still buy it all up, like well trained animals.

Of course some of us do everything in our power to get things as cheap as we can.

HBMC , im sure you and cheese elemental 's competition no doubt attracts ALOT of new customer to them.

Will they consider giving you guys additional discounts now?

garret wrote:i think there prices are fair

Can I follow you around and collect some of the money that apparently falls from the sky during your day?

Listen, when your parents stop buying you GW stuff and you start buying it on your own, you'll realize that it's just not worth it.

Which is why I no longer purchase anything from GW. At all. It's all ChaosOrc (who has a lot of goodies) or eBay or the Warstore, or even other companies which I've just been trying out.

Sure GW makes some nice models, but they're so expensive.

:edit:

Neconilis, you're a genius. Send me around 10%, will you? I'll buy a new house and car even with that small amount.

LunaHound wrote:I dont like that emo guy in the pic , nor do i like Nofasses Eadhunta .

Hurr, lemme just sig that

Vladsimpaler wrote:Neconilis, you're a genius. Send me around 10%, will you? I'll buy a new house and car even with that small amount.

Can do man, the day I consider anything from GW cheap is the day I can afford to burn money in a barrel to heat my house, so if you want some it's yours =)

H.B.M.C. wrote:

NO_SUCH_LUCK wrote:...and yet we still buy it all up, like well trained animals.

Of course some of us do everything in our power to get things as cheap as we can.

Whatever

NO_SUCH_LUCK wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

NO_SUCH_LUCK wrote:...and yet we still buy it all up, like well trained animals.

Of course some of us do everything in our power to get things as cheap as we can.

Whatever

I suppose that's more suitable for Forgeworld, not GW.

LunaHound wrote:Will they consider giving you guys additional discounts now?

I doubt it. And I don't mind either. I'm just supporting my FLGS... which happens to be on the other side of the planet to me, but making it not-so-local, but still.

I'm done. Good luck getting them to reduce their prices through internet complaining. I don't think they even know any of the forums even exist.

People dont hate them as such its more the pure disappointment of another price rise. Im through with them as a company, i would have stayed for WOTR but then i saw the new prices for the elves, £20 a box for foot and cavalry. Yes £20 for 6 cavalry models for LOTR. Ill pass, and ill find like most people are doing cheaper better wargames elsewhere

Damn double post. Sorry

It is disappointment rather than hate in a lot of cases. Games Workshop seems to go out of it's way to prove that it cares about it's profit margin a lot more than there customers. And yes, I know it's a company and needs to make the investors and Shareholders happy. And that's fine and dandy. But you also need to keep your consumer base happy and that...just ain't happening.

They outright refuse to support folks with FAQs and Codex updates. When they do they tends to screw them up anyway. I know a lot of folk dread new Codex's because they'll end up loosing models and the like, or taking away options that you have on your models.

And they're raising the prices on models that aren't always the best quality. I know some of the models I've had to build have been a nightmare to actually assemble because of warping or mismatched parts. I find the current prices a problem, and with the new price rises, well, I'm gonna be in the Dakka swap shop to get my armies more often than not. I've already got a solid core to my Empire army for a fraction of what Games Workshop would charge.

Frankly, the only time I've bought something from Games Workshop itself this year has been paints and Codex releases. All the models I build from spares and bits, or grab off Dakka and MegaMinis.

Essentially, I know this likely hurts Games Workshop since I drop around a £600 a year on this hobby, and many spend a lot more. But I'll start giving a crap about them when they give one about me.

There are 4 things that annoy me about Games Workshop:
1.) They name things wrong - new IG codex Hellguns are now Hot Shot Lasguns which are totally different things.
2.) They try to pull the wool over our eyes - buy a 20 man box set for £18, buy a 10 man box set for £10, it may aswell be 1 for the price of 2! Also - things like specialist movement trays that you practically have to buy to play the War Of The Ring Expansion. And in fact thats another point - in the beginning there were three games LOTR, 40K and WHFB. Now they are all practically a squad based game with movement, shooting and assault phases. The ony different things are the Skirmish games and they are expensive and haven't been updated. (Not that we want them updated because GW would mess it up)
3.) Continuity errors. Compare the leg sizes of the new Cadian command squad with the old Cadians and the commanders look sodding anorexic.
4.) As Jon mentions, poor build quality of minatures.
EDIT: Number 5 - they never reply to your e-mails or they reply then you post another question and then they ignore you.

I feel better now,

The OC-D

P.S. I am one of these people that get annoyed very easily. Just annoyed, not angry or extremist.

Yeah i'm not very fond of GW, it's been said before, it's more ofa dissapointment then anything else.

I do get the feeling that their price raises, is really going to hurt the GW as a company and loose most of it's customers because they are just demanding too higher prices, but sadly i have been sucked into forgeworld so i shouldn't really complain...
Hey who knows, this rise in prices may really shell shock GW into knowing why price rises dont help at all, and slight decreases do !

however the drop in customer support is pretty dramatic, no FAQ's, no forums, its just sending out bad messages about GW which is a shame because i enjoy their games but gah they do it so badly.

Anyway i must go back to saving money for my next forgeworld purchase haha !

Do they still consider the internet to be a fad?

They'll squeeze as much $ out of their products aslong as the customers allow them too

Someone doesn't know that much about business...
O.K. the reason they charge so much is because G.W. sells inelastic products to committed consumers, this means because we like the game and its fluff/models well keep paying higher and higher prices because we can go without other things like new washing machines.

However having the highest profit margin does not nessesarly mean they are getting the highest profits overall. Lowering there mark-up slightly could correspond to a much higher increases in sales volume and therefore profits as people would do more impulse buying as well as adding that unit you like but couldn't afford before. In my oppion this would help them bring new gamers into the fold and help to retain them but hey im no CEO

I think not having feedback on the game design process is VERY dumb i mean games publishers let people play betas as it helps to hype as well as refine the finished product.

glowgos wrote:

They'll squeeze as much $ out of their products aslong as the customers allow them too

Someone doesn't know that much about business...
O.K. the reason they charge so much is because G.W. sells inelastic products to committed consumers, this means because we like the game and its fluff/models well keep paying higher and higher prices because we can go without other things like new washing machines.

However having the highest profit margin does not nessesarly mean they are getting the highest profits the could if they dropped there mark-up slightly this could correspond to a much higher increases in sales volume and therefore profits. In my oppion this would help them bring new gamers into the fold and help to retain them but hey im no CEO

You do know the sentence you quoted pretty much sums up what you said right?

As well as shows why people are mad at GW 's buisness practices.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Do they still consider the internet to be a fad?

It is a fad, nobody goes on the internet anymore.

George Spiggott wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Do they still consider the internet to be a fad?

It is a fad, nobody goes on the internet anymore.

I know I don't, I mean once they closed the GW forums what's the point?

I just wait for WD to arrive to tell me what's coming out this month.

I don't hate GW, I am sad because of the way they behave.

I am disappointed that they use their power and wealth not to make the best possible rules and figures, but instead to try to dominate the entire wargame industry to the point that they pretend no-one else exists.

At the same time they palm off badly thought out and supported rules and justify it by denying any validity of competitive or tournament playing.

Any company's moral compass should be to "Be the best that you can be" not to just knock off some crap and say it's good enough for jazz. Obviously, elements of cost-benefit and value have to come into it when you want to make a profit, but it wouldn't cost GW hardly anything to employ a technical writer and editor to help make their rules make sense.

There is a definite element of hypocrisy.

because they they have brain washed me into thinking $100 is a reasonable price to pay for a plastic tank (baneblade). i have 3 now....

My only beef is with certain armies that have been pummelled into a dull grey mass (e.g. CSM and Spess Mehrens), and the ludicrous prices over here. Trust me, compared to us, you Americans and Brits have it easy.

Thankfully, there are cheap ways around this.

And garret: that thing about GW prices is the best line I have EVER heard on this forum.

According to your flag, you're in America.

Do you want it changed? I'm assuming you are in New Zealand.

For crying out loud, if you can't afford the game (and if you can't afford 1 army and the rulebooks, then you are one indigent SOB) and don't like the rules, don't play it.

But if you just want to cry about it like a little sissy then do it in private.

The hobby is a luxury, you decide if it is worth the money or not. No one forces you to buy the stuff.

So stop crying about it. You want the stuff, then be prepared to pony up the dough to stay involved.

Don't like it? Then sell your gak on Ebay and move on.

End. Of. Story.

I havent been in the hobby long enough to really have qualms with GW outside of the price of their products. But even with cheaper alternatives (mainly WarStore) its still expensive, so it seems to just be a fact of the hobby to be spending some major cash to stay involved.

Doesnt mean I'm happy with it, but it just seems that this is how it will always be

cheese can you please at least get my permission befor you put a quote from me on your sig

Lock the thread now? Anyone?

Reecius wrote:For crying out loud, if you can't afford the game (and if you can't afford 1 army and the rulebooks, then you are one indigent SOB) and don't like the rules, don't play it.

But if you just want to cry about it like a little sissy then do it in private.

The hobby is a luxury, you decide if it is worth the money or not. No one forces you to buy the stuff.

So stop crying about it. You want the stuff, then be prepared to pony up the dough to stay involved.

Don't like it? Then sell your gak on Ebay and move on.

End. Of. Story.

Well, no, it's not entirely the end of the story. I mean, we could certainly all be uncomplaining manly men I suppose, with our mighty and hairy chests, but that doesn't mean that Games Workshop is in the right for cranking up prices for less material. Most of us have already, quite subtly, hinted we aren't going to pay them more for less so I suppose we have decided it's not worth the money they ask.

And yet the money is, while a big part, only part of the equation. I'm curious...how, exactly, do you defend the lack of support? That Games Workshop won't update a Codex for years and years, while updating another two or three times. That Games Workshop have made it very clear they don't especially care about customers such as you and I. Do you truly believe a company can care only about profit and not where the money comes from? Do you really think it would bite into there profit margins hugely to update the FAQ's quickly or to do more thorough play testing?

I don't hate GW, I just like them a lot less than I used to.

Really it's all about disappointment. I grew up playing GW games, and can actually remember being excited over a new White Dwarf or codex coming out, new models etc. That hasn't happened in a long time- for me 3rd edition Eldar was the start. So I think a lot of us have put our lives in to a hobby that isn't really a hobby anymore, and the GW we remember 8-9 years ago isn't the GW of today.

Of course I have met some people who have told me all sorts of GW horror stories that when questioned admitted they had never played a GW game. GW's reputation is so low, that it really is a byword. Frankly the reputation is mostly (but not wholly) deserved.

Neconilis wrote:Can do man, the day I consider anything from GW cheap is the day I can afford to burn money in a barrel to heat my house, so if you want some it's yours =)

Gah, considering how much it costs to heat a house nowadays, I think I am already doing that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I doubt it. And I don't mind either. I'm just supporting my FLGS... which happens to be on the other side of the planet to me, but making it not-so-local, but still.

The power of the internet at work. I have some stores "local" to me but they are are at the extremes of the city/county, far easier to get stuff on the net, sadly.

Reecius wrote:For crying out loud, if you can't afford the game (and if you can't afford 1 army and the rulebooks, then you are one indigent SOB) and don't like the rules, don't play it.

But if you just want to cry about it like a little sissy then do it in private.

The hobby is a luxury, you decide if it is worth the money or not. No one forces you to buy the stuff.

So stop crying about it. You want the stuff, then be prepared to pony up the dough to stay involved.

Don't like it? Then sell your gak on Ebay and move on.

End. Of. Story.

Thats not how capitalism works there Reecius, as the purchasing customer we have every right in the world to complain. Especially when we buy a product that is clearly sub par in production value like many of the recent codexs. If we did not care about the game we would not bother. I don't whine about Vor the malestrom, because I dont care, nor does anyone else, they are out of business. I complain about 40k because with not much effort it could be dramatically improved as a product.

There is no excuse for poor rules writing in a table top hobby, no excuse for deliberatly ignoring and disrespecting a signifigant portion of your customer base, no excuse for blatant price gouging.

We are still here because we love the fluff and love the models, GW does that better than anyone. If they were half as good at writing rules and keeping fair business practices then they would have a much happier long term customer base.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Lock the thread now? Anyone?

You have to hit the Alert a Moderator button (Exclamation point) on the specific post
that you find objectionable.

The thread doe not need to be closed. The title though does. it shouldnt be hate as i dont believe anyone does hate GW. I believe the title should be Why do people feel disappointed with GW and any posts that border the "hate" factor can be or shoudl be removed. But im no mod and this is only a thought

garret wrote:WHY DO THEY?
i mean if you hate them dont play the game.
if you hate the rules dont play it
if you hate the price build your own
i mean you wouldnt torch a suv for the enviroment the go to a hummer dealership?
i like gw i think there prices are fair and i like the rules

This is the reason why children should be seen and not heard.

WHERE, did you come up with this epic thought process?

Naw, I think we'll let this thread air out for a while. Keep it polite (click the link in my sig for Rule #1), but I think it's cathartic to yell about this for a little while.

I'm a slow painter, and don't play with unpainted models, so I can be awfully smug about GW's prices.

Short sighted, thoughtless people hate GW. People who think are angry with our end of an abusive relationship.

Once upon a time, there were a bunch of gamers/modelers/painters/hobbyists like us. They really like playing role playing and wargames so they made a magazine about it. In that magazine, they wrote about all of their favorite games, and note that they we not employed by any games company. They we "3rd party" or un-affiliated, and they views were considered objective and un biased.

During this time of independant magazine publication (it was called White Dwarf) they started to write their own rules and make their own figures. At first, the rules were just published in the magazine. But as the popularity of the magazine and their own house written rules grew, they needed to start a company specifically to publish their own brand of games. Thus Games Workshop was created. Some of them sculpted general fantasy and sci-fi figures at the time, and they had their own company; Citadel Miniatures. Now GW had rules and games, but no figures of their own, so their buddies, Citadel made figures for them.

GW was still growing, and their staff we still just regular gamers, in touch with their audience/customer base, so their products sold and gained popularity. Unfortunately, something bad happened at the magazine. (I'm not sure what/who was involved) but White dwarf stopped writing objectively about other games in their magazine, and just started writing about they own games (GW) exclusivly. They also stopped taking advertisers' money, forcing them to pass on the printing costs to the consumer(ie; raising WD price).

This wasn't the worst thing to happen at WD, though it was the beginning of it's downturn in quality. The writing at WD was still good however, and the articles were well received by the consumers, and they still accepted customer feedback, and even showcased customer armies quite frequently. White dwarf was entirerly an advetisement for GW and Citadel Minitures, but it was good and work buying.

Games Workshops' success grew, and they were able to buy up/out citadel miniatures, thus incorporating model making and casting into their own business. This was a good time to be a Game's Workshop fan, and the games were improving as well as the quality of the models.

But then, many of the original group of gamers and magazine writes disapeared. They either quit, were fired, removed them selves from being in active decision makers (just stock holders), or sold out their share of the company. Also the company Was put up for public sale; the sold stock and became public traded. (I'm not sure how close in time these two things occured, but combined was the end of customer service/care/support). This was the beginning of the end. Customer support took a nosedive. The writing in WD became abysmal drivel. The buisness model changed from being "A company of gamers making games for other gamers" to "squeeze all the cash out now, be don't know when the gravy trail is going to end."

Originally GW was like a money trees in a nursery. It was given plenty of fertilizer, water and sunshine(love) to grow, and it did each year. But now it's like slash and burn farming; they cut down all the trees to grow some crops that will only last a few seasons. By ending customer support, care, and feedback, they've lost touch with their core audience; the oldtimers that supported them when they were a young an upcoming company. By only targeting teens, they are limiting their market. See, the thing is, the teenage years only last so long, all people grow up. Teens may have 100% disposable income, but that doesn't last long, once they get to college, it's done. And just how big is a teen's budget? 100% of 3000 a year for 6 years compared to 3-5% of 50,000+ for life? what sense does that make?

Now GW is run like a cigarette company. Totally dependent on new product users, except where a cigarette company's product is what stops (kills) it's older users, its GW's business model which has specifically alienated them.

What I'm trying to say is there are 2 types of GW players; newbies that like GW cause they don't know any better, and us oldtimers that can't quit because we're addicts. Then you have the 2 types on non-GW players. Those that never started, and those that quit. It doesn't really matter why they quit, it's still revenue lost to GW.

Right now GW is so focused on getting people started, they have forgot that they need to get people not to quit. Bad business sense. It costs 9 time more to make a new customer than to keep an existing one.

Please don't close this thread, I enjoy seeing all the Smarty McKnowitalls trotting out their best "Oh you're just stupid children either buy from GW or don't" rants.

if your so pissed off about there price
do what I do buy one box of what you like
and make copes of it you are stile paying for it

And those of us without the time/skill/budget to either make acceptable copies(probably highly illegal) or learn how to? GW, as a business, claims to provide a service and or product for a given rate. We have obviously seen disconcerting issues with both from them, without any admittance that this is the case. Business is not a one way street.

Death Gear wrote:If you're so pissed off about their prices,
do what I do: buy one box of what you like
and make copes of it. You are still paying for it.

Edited for spelling & grammar. Just because.

It's almost as if he wrote that with the direct purpose of trolling warpcrafter.

sorry, my grammar it not that good

Death Gear wrote:sorry, my grammar it not that good

No worries - you're just a fine testament to the American public education system.

Or if you don´t have the skills to make your own minis or copy GWs ones, you can always go and buy cheaper count as. Right now you can buy 80 plastic OOP figures from the old Warzone line for 20€ that can be used as IG. Hasslefree has their space dwarf line, Perry Brothers sells colonial troops that can be kit bashed as Pretorians, Urban War miniatures, Pig Iron (nice heads)... do I need to continue?

There was a time where playing 40K was about having fun with little miniatures, even GW encouraged that, now it seems to be, according to some posters in this thread, that you either buy GW like a a nice drone or quit the game. I pity you for being so inflexible, life must be hard for you.

Me?, I play with GWs rules but used any miniature that catches my eye, so I´m using GWs Falcons along with Infinity Mekas for my Eldar and I don´t plan to stop mixing miniatures even if I hurt someone´s definition of THE HOBBY.

M.

Railguns wrote:It's almost as if he wrote that with the direct purpose of trolling warpcrafter.

That's giving him too much credit.

Railguns wrote:Short sighted, thoughtless people hate GW. People who think are angry with our end of an abusive relationship.

I really disagree to what i highlighted . Here is why:

Everyone have a limit and breaking point to what price they can tolerate GW to raise to. GW in june will raise their price to as we seen so far
20%+ , in other words as if your discount stores (normally 20% off ) isnt there.

Now , just because your limit isnt reached yet , doesnt mean others are fine with it.

So the question is , what do you think will happen to the hobby if GW pushed it so far that everyone's
limit is reached at the same time?

I think the answer to the above question is the major concern to the "hate"

For the people with 1 army its not a big deal . To some like polonius , hbmc, lord castellan , or me , thats something agitating to think about.

Still think its short sighted?

I don't know. At this point, its like hating fire for being hot or gravity for making warhams players bad at sports(joke, obviously). It's what we expect them to do.

Fire is hot? That BASTARD!

warpcrafter wrote:Please don't close this thread, I enjoy seeing all the Smarty McKnowitalls trotting out their best "Oh you're just stupid children either buy from GW or don't" rants.

Groovy, I have one for you

re: prices - Its a luxury hobby guys, if you don't like it no one is forcing you to play. I find its priced comparably to my other hobbies (video games for example) and that ok to me. Yes prices have gone up but I'm not gonna be an old man who grouses about it (did you know I used to get Atari 2600 games brand new for $20 or less?). The way I see it, it is a solidly middle class hobby and anyone who's not a poor college student is likely to be able to afford to play it just fine, sure you might not be able to buy all the new releases you want right when they come out but you ought to be able to cough up the $50 to a $100 a month for new toys when you feel like it.

I particularly find folks griping about kids who get their mom's to buy them stuff pretty funny, if only because it sounds so much like the complaining of kids/teenagers (of any age really) who've been cut off the parental teat but haven't gotten themselves a real job yet

As to complaining that the markup is ~70%, that hardly unusual as a total markup for retail goods. Any thing you're getting from anyone other the GW direct they only make about 20% on but they can hardly go around undercutting their own distributors/retailers.


re: GW customer service/business model - I will concur that GW's anti-internet policy confuses the beejeezus outta me, particularly in the US where they don;t even like folks to use the internet to sell their stuff, what manufacturer stops people from selling their goods?!? I will also agree that they could serve their customer base better, but doing so would require a complete remodel of the plan that has served them for the past decade or so and thats never simple for any business.

Jack

I have heard plenty of stories where gamers go to GW sanctioned tournies and are turned away because they were using models that were not from the GW line. Sometimes proxies are not an option

One little light of hope! About a year or 2 ago, the Denverittes united (Denver, CO, USA) and the GW Denver shut down!!! It said the sales were so poor they were closing the store, apparently there is not enough business. Meanwhile the 4 FLGS around my area are still going strong... I love it.

I am currently attending school to become a technical writer. Why do I hate Games Workshop? Because of the stupid rule arguements that people get into because the writers are not writing creatively or clearly in the codexes or the rulebook, allowing multiple interpretations of a rule. If it really takes 80ish pages of core rules and another book of supplimental rules (what, maybe 40 pages or more) to play this game, it better be clear as carribean ocean water.

DO YOU HEAR ME GAMES WORKSHOP, THE LARGE MAJORITY OF YOU ARE CRAPPY WRITERS!!!!
oh wait.... no one is listening.

Death Gear wrote:if your so pissed off about there price
do what I do buy one box of what you like
and make copes of it you are stile paying for it

No.

Intellectual property rights mean that when you buy a product you buy that product, NOT the right to copy it.

What you are doing is illegal.

Oooooh Death Gear, Kyoto's gonna tell on you.
Sorry, I'll stop now. I've been awake for too long and have become snippy.

As a new wargamer, long term RPGer, I have a different view on this.

1. The price increase is weird since we're in a recession and it alienates new players.
2. Not having official GW forums prevents feedback from gamers to improve products, books, etc.
3. Several RPGs that I consider good died due to lac of support aka FAQs, new expansions, etc or the system suffered too many expansions. GW should focus more on the expansions, models, Codices, FAQs, etc instead of stores. Let other companies sell online. Let them sell specialist games.

If this keeps up, 40k maybe history. They should look at PP who can get fans excited, increase prices, and have games that are releasing new models for each faction monthly.

Just my views.

I mean, we could certainly all be uncomplaining manly men I suppose, with our mighty and hairy chests,

Hahaha, that was awesome! I laughed my ass off at that one!

Anyway, the hobby is pricey, sure. I hate forking over large sums of money for models too, but no one has a gun to my head. I choose to do it because it is worth it to me, therefor I accept that price of something that brings me a lot of enjoyment in life.

Most fun hobbies are expensive: golf, tennis, scuba diving, surfing, fishing, cycling, comic books, etc. It just isn't cheap. You want a cheap hobby, take up rock collecting.

Something is worth what you are willing to pay for it. If you are unwilling to pay for the product, then don't. But if you keep buying it, GW will keep selling it. They are legally obligated to seek to turn a profit for their shareholders. They are simply doing what a corporation must do. People who pine for the "good old days" when GW was run by gamers are missing the fact that the hobby is what it is today BECAUSE GW incorporated. Without them growing aggressively, most of you would not be here on Dakka bitching about their prices right now. The game, the hobby and the industry is where it is because of what GW has done. You have to take the good with the bad.

Comparing them to a tobacco company is asanine, to whoever made that brilliant remark. They have nothing in common. Might as well say their CEO is like Hitler while you are at it.

Crying about it but still handing over your dough is stupid and pointless. Crying about it when you don't play it is even more pointless. Go find something better to do with yourself.

If you don't like the prices, do something proactive about it instead of throwing a temper tantrum which does nothing but drag down other people's enjoyment in the hobby. I want a Ferrari and think they are overpriced, but do you think anyone gives a flying feth? No, if you want a luxury good you have to be willing to pay for it. That is all there is to it.

Reecius wrote:If you don't like the prices, do something proactive about it instead of throwing a temper tantrum which does nothing but drag down other people's enjoyment in the hobby.

Umm... you been payin' any attention at all Reecius? We do do just that. We buy less, or buy from alternate sources or even take up better games. But for some reason you think that we shouldn't be annoyed at or don't have the right to complain about GW's business practices, their pricing "strategy" (if you can call it that), their rule support (or lack thereof) and blase attitude to long-term customers.

Can't wait until the anti-GW propaganda independent film comes out : Thank You for Playing GW Games

Starring Will Smith as the pro-GW lobbyist.

"You think you get kids hooked with your tobacco and your guns? I get them to sniff
paint, roll dice, post vitriol on the Internet, and give up on personal hygiene. The
GW hobby takes over their lives more completely than alcohol, nicotone, and hormones."

I'd love to see some of the people in this thread as therapists or couple's counselors, or even a friend:
Person A: "Sometimes my wife really annoys me when she spends tons of money on shoes but yells at me about my wargaming hobby."
Person B: Either divorce her or shut up about it.

Yes, some of the tired complaints about GW get old, but they're also far less common than they were even a few years ago. We're jaded now, world wise. We've seen prices hiked, armies eliminated, rules mangled, and customer support slashed. Yet sometimes we vent, we complain, and yes, we go on and on about our grievances.

Now, that's all fine, and sure some people are mildly annoyed because people are kvetching about GW again, until somebody decides that we all need a good talking to about complaining. Now, instead of a group of people idly venting about a third party, there is a demarcation, a them vs. us, a sense of being called out. That annoys people, puts them on the defensive. It is, more often then not, the first step to a flame war. In the end, calling people out on the pettiness of their gripes will lead to more pointless posts than the gripes did in the first place, except nastier and more likely to lock a thread.

In short: yelling at people to stop complaining isn't any different from chastising them about anything else: it's resented and counterproductive and actually quite disrespectful, and really shouldn't be done.

Reecius wrote:

I mean, we could certainly all be uncomplaining manly men I suppose, with our mighty and hairy chests,

Hahaha, that was awesome! I laughed my ass off at that one!

Anyway, the hobby is pricey, sure. I hate forking over large sums of money for models too, but no one has a gun to my head. I choose to do it because it is worth it to me, therefor I accept that price of something that brings me a lot of enjoyment in life.

Most fun hobbies are expensive: golf, tennis, scuba diving, surfing, fishing, cycling, comic books, etc. It just isn't cheap. You want a cheap hobby, take up rock collecting.

Something is worth what you are willing to pay for it. If you are unwilling to pay for the product, then don't. But if you keep buying it, GW will keep selling it. They are legally obligated to seek to turn a profit for their shareholders. They are simply doing what a corporation must do. People who pine for the "good old days" when GW was run by gamers are missing the fact that the hobby is what it is today BECAUSE GW incorporated. Without them growing aggressively, most of you would not be here on Dakka bitching about their prices right now. The game, the hobby and the industry is where it is because of what GW has done. You have to take the good with the bad.

Comparing them to a tobacco company is asanine, to whoever made that brilliant remark. They have nothing in common. Might as well say their CEO is like Hitler while you are at it.

Crying about it but still handing over your dough is stupid and pointless. Crying about it when you don't play it is even more pointless. Go find something better to do with yourself.

If you don't like the prices, do something proactive about it instead of throwing a temper tantrum which does nothing but drag down other people's enjoyment in the hobby. I want a Ferrari and think they are overpriced, but do you think anyone gives a flying feth? No, if you want a luxury good you have to be willing to pay for it. That is all there is to it.

Again, that's not all there is to it. Althought the price hike during a recession certainly feels like a good kick to the nuts it's certainly not the only issue. No one here thinks Games Workshop is a charity. No expects them to sell this stuff at cost. But, at this moment, they are making a healthy profit. And so, in a situation where people have less money, they're raising the prices to make an even healthier profit, hoping that the hardcore fans are gonna keep buying from them. But we aren't. Some simply can't afford the hobby anymore and give up. Some refuse to spend that kinda money. A lot of us are going to other sources, and so less of our money reaches Games Workshops hands.

And well know there answer will be to raise them again. And again. And again. Each time reducing the number of people who can afford or will pay there prices and limiting there customer base to the dedicated fans who, they themselves, don't bother targeting.

But let's ignore the price hike, shall we? You obviously feel they're justified and I, and others, do not. Fair enough. The price hike is not the only issue here, however. Can you please justify the loss of customer feedback and support? How, exactly, is Games Workshop loosing out by having a forum where they can listen to criticism and suggestions, or praise, for there product? How does it hurt them to update there FAQs frequently when new problems come to light? Heck, how much of there profit will it cost them to do a more thourough play testing, to make sure an army is competative without being over powered? I know, they don't make the rules for torunaments or to be balanced...but maybe they should try it a little. Is it going to hurt there sales that an army is actually equal to others? Sure, the tourney players who obsess over winning won't buy the newest broken force...but they might buy armies they like.

Money isn't always the issue, although it certainly hurts. But essentially being told, 'we don't give a crap, just give us your damned wallet' doesn't really help them much.

To add my two cents (American forum, American currency )

I tend to agree with Reecius. Complaining on a public forum doesn't do anythig to change a company like GW. We, as consumers, have a choice....sure, by all means talk about the choice you personnally have chosen and why, but just complaining and then handing over your cash to that same company is borderline insane, and hints at a type of addiction.

However, I see the fault for this "pointless complainng" taking root in the thread because of the "question" posed by the OP.

"Why do you hate GW?"....if the question is posed as it was, then you can't attack the people for simply answering that question.

Now, had the OP posed the question:

" Do we think that GW current business model is going to successful for them? or well recieved by the gaming community?"

We may all have been able to have amuch more fruitful and meaningful conversation.

I've seen the price discussion/argument about 300 times before on Dakka.

The true answer is always the same. GW increase the prices because players keep buying, so their profits increase.

If and when the time comes that GW price themselves out of the market, their profits will drop, and they will have to freeze the prices or even reduce them.

GW have been in business for about 30 years, and they have been in the exclusive Warhammer business for about 15 years, and they have grown their company to the biggest pure tabletop figure wargame company in the world by a large factor. They are doing something right in business terms.

GW's secret is that a lot of their sales are made to newbies who often don't even know that there are alternatives to GW and don't know or care that the prices were 10% lower last year.

Achieving success at being a business doesn't mean they can't offer actual support. It's one thing to have a shrewd business model that's worked solidly for 15 years (and it hasn't, we know how their stock price as done in the past, and the LotR 'bubble' affair), but should being successful instantly = lousy support for long-time customers?

Reecius wrote:For crying out loud, if you can't afford the game (and if you can't afford 1 army and the rulebooks, then you are one indigent SOB) and don't like the rules, don't play it.

But if you just want to cry about it like a little sissy then do it in private.

The hobby is a luxury, you decide if it is worth the money or not. No one forces you to buy the stuff.

So stop crying about it. You want the stuff, then be prepared to pony up the dough to stay involved.

Don't like it? Then sell your gak on Ebay and move on.

End. Of. Story.

Let me assure you , the complaints have NOTHING to do with whether we can afford the armies or not.

Death Gear wrote:if your so pissed off about there price
do what I do buy one box of what you like
and make copes of it you are stile paying for it

Can you post your mailing address? I'm sure GW Legal would love to send you a nasty letter.

Do not promote illegal copying of intellectual property on Dakka. This is theft, pure and simple, and we don't tolerate it. Further violations will result in temporary suspensions.

Much better to wait six months until 'the kids' have got bored of Imperial Guard and pick up a bargain then.

Perturabo's Chosen wrote:Once upon a time, there were a bunch of gamers/modelers/painters/hobbyists like us. They really like playing role playing and wargames so they made a magazine about it. In that magazine, they wrote about all of their favorite games, and note that they we not employed by any games company. They we "3rd party" or un-affiliated, and they views were considered objective and un biased.

During this time of independant magazine publication (it was called White Dwarf) they started to write their own rules and make their own figures. At first, the rules were just published in the magazine. But as the popularity of the magazine and their own house written rules grew, they needed to start a company specifically to publish their own brand of games. Thus Games Workshop was created.

A lot of people think that, but it's not true. White Dwarf was always published by Games Workship, from Issue #1. Games Workshop, at the time, was one of the major importers and retailers (by mail order, mostly; their only real competitor at the time was the excellent Games of Liverpool) of tabletop roleplaying games, and started WD to *promote its business*. That's what White Dwarf was for, and has always been for; if you look at the early issues (say, before issue #60 or #70 or so), there's at least 1 full-page GW ad in each one, for the then-latest mail-order games releases (mostly Dungeons & Dragons, but also RuneQuest, Traveller, and a few others). Generally, the reviews pages were full of games you could buy from Games Workshop, and the content of the articles was also designed to promote the games you could buy from Games Workshop.

The "ooh it was all hippy elves making their own rules in those days" idea is just typical nostalgia, & doesn't address the realities of White Dwarf's then business model.

(I did hear one rumour, from a reliable source in the gaming industry, that suggested GW only started producing their own RPGs and wargames because TSR, who then published D&D, decided they didn't want to sell through GW any more, once TSR UK and Imagine Magazine were around to promote THEIR hobby.)

Moving on... personally, I love the models, and the fluff, and enjoy the games as action-packed, fun, reasonably well-balanced wargames. I buy most of my GW stuff from eBay or online discounters. I'd LOVE to see them employ professional game writers & designers to write and design their games, because though "promoting from within" is laudable, you can't turn a GW shop-worker into a game designer just by changing his job title. I don't have a beef with GW as a whole; they still make the greatest toy soldiers in the world, and probably always will do. It'd be nice if they cared as much about producing great rules as they do about producing great toy soldiers, but (a) they don't, (b) they never have done, and (c) their business model doesn't appear to require them to do so.

Of course everyone has the right to complain, but as Delephont pointed out, complaining while handing over money is ridiculous.

I am not intending to be GW's stalwart defender or anything, just trying to be realistic. Could the game be better? Yes, it sure could. It could always improve as any game could improve. But, it HAS been improving. From the beginning to now, the game is radically better. I too wish they would do open play testing to work out kinks before product hit the market, but again, whining about it on the net changes nothing. Write JJ an email stating your point of view. That would be VASTLY more effective than jabbering aimlessly on the net about something you do not like. Will it make an immediate impact? Who knows, but probably not. Enough people do it and GW may listen. At any rate, that would be actually trying to affect a change as opposed to just spewing vitriol pointlessly.

Like Kilkrazy said, they are doing something right. They have grown and expanded the hobby while other "friendlier" companies have come and gone. Business is not a nice guy's game. It is a competitive environment in which companies compete over a limited resource: your money. Being nice and friendly aren't qualities that help you to excel.

My only point is that complaining about something may feel good for a few seconds, but it is ultimately pointless. If you want to see a change occur, you must do something about it. Otherwise, all you do is pollute the net with negativity that brings other people down.

And HBMC, I am the same way, I buy all my stuff at 32% off with no sales tax. That to me is fair. If I play at a game store, I make sure to purchase things regularly from the store to support the community, but my big purchases are all at big discounts. But, while it is still not cheap, I do not complain about it because it is my choice.

I buy forgeworld models too, which are incredibly expensive, but again, I feel that it is worth it.

I wrote a letter to JJ, and he replied. He gave the usua; GW is he best lalala Rubbish in my opinion. Then what he said in his reply surprised me. If your leaving the GW side of the hobby now would be a good time to do so, he also said not to leave the whole wargaming hobby as other companies are there and a lot of them are offering value for money and a overall better playing experiance. So from JJ saying if you leave the GW "hobby" then do so now but always remember there are always other companies who are producing new stuff all the time

H.B.M.C. wrote:Achieving success at being a business doesn't mean they can't offer actual support. It's one thing to have a shrewd business model that's worked solidly for 15 years (and it hasn't, we know how their stock price as done in the past, and the LotR 'bubble' affair), but should being successful instantly = lousy support for long-time customers?

I totally agree, that's why in my earlier post in this thread I said I was sad about GW because they could easily do much better than they do, but can't be bothered to.

I would also point out that although this demographic is grossly underrepresented on this forum, there are a whole lot of people who *do* stop complaining as a result of they no longer buy GW games/models.

Every time I hear 'GW is a miniatures company, not a game company' I point at the giant white elephant sitting in the corner: GW can only sell miniatures because their game creates the demand for them.

How many miniatures companies have existed in the last 10 years? Probably a dozen or more, I really don't know, I'm going off what I've seen displayed in comic book shops. It always seems that one premieres, a few shelving cycles go by, and then they're on the clearance rack because nobody really cares about stand-alone pewter figurines.

The only reason, and I do mean only reason, that GW has the staying power it does is because of its success at creating enticing background material that people can become enmeshed in through the game. GW's business model is not 'create highly technical miniatures, highlight the detailing and mold quality, and then sell miniatures', it's 'put stores in high traffic areas, pay staff to demo the game, get new hobbyists hooked on the game, and then sell them miniatures'.

I think for every person I know that plays 40k, I know at least one more that quit because the rules/codex sucks or they don't want to wait 4 years for their army to get updated. These people no longer buy models, and the new players don't really buy models because the first group sells them their army. This is completely aside from people who quit because they no longer have time to play.

GW is not a well run company. It's folly to think that they are. You can't shove your head in the sand and neglect the demand model that keeps your main revenue stream flowing. They'll prosecute anyone who duplicates their models because it's in violation of their IP, while at the same time leaving the embodiment of their intellectual property to rot on the vine. Meanwhile they hike their prices far above comparable-quality miniatures companies in an effort to generate earnings, but they simply reduce the quantity demanded. Anyone who's taken a first-level economics class knows this, and the long term result is going to be further shrink of the player pool.

Miguelsan wrote:

Swordguy wrote:No, they aren't. I worked a year at Iron Wind Metals (BattleTech, Shadowrun, WarGods of Aegyptus, Ral Partha) - I know how much it costs to produce a metal model, cast it, pack it, and ship it. GW's costs are WAY out of line for character models. Their price increases in general have mainly been naked money grabs, being far, FAR above even the 3%-ish yearly inflation we've been seeing. The price per model for plastic IG, for example, is getting to the $4 US region now. Reaper's doing that with metal. Catalyst Game Labs managed to stuff 24 plastic Mechs into a $40 boxed set along with full-color rulebooks, cardstock charts, maps, and so for. Up until the price of tin tripled a few years ago, IWM was doing metal minis for $5 a model. What's the average PPM in the GW line right now? IIRC, it's somewhere in the $12-13 region.

Moreover, GW corporate polices have been openly admitted to not care about long-term gamers and aimed more toward the short-term tween buyer with a huge disposable income. Yes, it makes money. No, it's neither friendly to the players nor a good way to build a stable customer base.

Yes, I know it's a troll thread. It doesn't make it any less wrong.

As somebody will point later on, probably MDG, Iron Wind is not a big company, it doesn´t have brick&mortar stores to "promote" the hobby nor is it a public traded one that apparently HAS A LEGAL OBLIGATION (never heard about this before but UK is a funny place) to maximize profit for shareholders plus a board that want money too, and the personal secretary for the CEO, and the legal dept, and the bean counters, and the communication dept (MIA since 2000)...

So a 4€ plastic guardsman barely covers the costs, GW´s overheads are not enough so you better send a donation now before they go belly up.

M.

PS: Yep, half this post is sarcasm that doesn´t read to well on the net but when I was in college I learnt the going big was supposed to improve your efficiency, scale economies and such, but as usual GW added all the inefficiencies along the way.

Indeedy. Also, the companies people mention when comparing prices don't have the 330+ stores that GW do. Any idea how much it costs to keep those running? All paid for by the models as well.

Prices are indeed high, and sometimes out of peoples pocket range, but that does not necessarily cause them to be unjustified. Go to the GW home page, click on Investor Relations and have a good old shufty. See what their true profit margin is (post tax) and then tell us they are rolling in it thanks to stupidly high prices. I can pretty much guarantee you they are not.

Now, if you have a problem with the rules etc, then fairly dos. Each to their own. But such things that are quantifiable really should be researched before complaints are raised.

Having a sloppy infrastructure (330+ exclusively GW stores' upkeep) does not justify high prices.

Could you go to your boss, assert that you are so underpaid that you can't afford to buy food (when you make 50% more than comparable employees), and base this assertion on your inability to pay for a $200 tab at the 5 star restaurant you eat at every night?

If you have unreasonably high operating costs, you don't jack your prices out of the realm of your competitive market, you cut your high operating costs. Increasing prices causes a shift downwards in the quantity demanded on the SnD curve. It's simple economics. If you then couple that with business policy that reduces demand, like the cancellation of GTs, and the unwillingness to update their gaming system, then all you've managed to do is shrink your market share.

Dude, I totally fail to follow your example there.

What you are saying is that GW should scrap was has been to the present day, a successful business model, just to give you cheaper models?

Do they have unreasonably high operating costs? That is purely a matter of opinion. My view is that the Stores are a an expensive necessity that got them where they are, and keeps them where they are. So not even going to bother arguing the toss on that one, as we could do so until blue in the face and still not convince each other.

My point originally was purely to illustrate that a lot of information about GW is freely and readily available, and that it depresses me just how many people cannot be arsed to even try to support their arguements, and generally scream 'Fanboi' whenever someone corrects them. And reading this, I think I should point out that I am not accusing you of this of yourself! Saves later confusion!

I think that a lot of the problem is that GW's business model, for years, relied on those 330 stores -- but it's completely failed to evolve to the internet age, which is hurting pretty much ALL specialist retailers. Shifting their model around, evolving, would be a major task -- the inertia involved is tremendous...

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Dude, I totally fail to follow your example there.

What you are saying is that GW should scrap was has been to the present day, a successful business model, just to give you cheaper models?

That's not at all what my thesis pointed at.

GW's business model doesn't work now. That is what I actually said. If you have a business model that doesn't work, then jacking your prices upward doesn't keep you from going out of business any more quickly.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Do they have unreasonably high operating costs? That is purely a matter of opinion.

Over the last couple of years GW have been attempting to reduce their operating costs and cutting backs in several areas so that 'opinion' would also be the 'opinion' of the GW management.

Well, who knows Gamesworkshop may be actually finding it hardin these times of economic rubbish-ness. i may still pay for the odd item like a tank, for my Dkok but it will be less frequent.

Well we will just have to wait and see what the future beholds really.

Apparently, Hobbies do quite well in times of recession. I guess it's the escapism from the crushing stress of work. And it's typically cheaper to maintain a hobby than a social life when cash is tight, especially social hobbies like ours.

theocd wrote:There are 4 things that annoy me about Games Workshop:
1.) They name things wrong - new IG codex Hellguns are now Hot Shot Lasguns which are totally different things.
2.) They try to pull the wool over our eyes - buy a 20 man box set for £18, buy a 10 man box set for £10, it may aswell be 1 for the price of 2! Also - things like specialist movement trays that you practically have to buy to play the War Of The Ring Expansion. And in fact thats another point - in the beginning there were three games LOTR, 40K and WHFB. Now they are all practically a squad based game with movement, shooting and assault phases. The ony different things are the Skirmish games and they are expensive and haven't been updated. (Not that we want them updated because GW would mess it up)
3.) Continuity errors. Compare the leg sizes of the new Cadian command squad with the old Cadians and the commanders look sodding anorexic.
4.) As Jon mentions, poor build quality of minatures.
EDIT: Number 5 - they never reply to your e-mails or they reply then you post another question and then they ignore you.

I feel better now,

The OC-D

P.S. I am one of these people that get annoyed very easily. Just annoyed, not angry or extremist.

Wow just wow. Learn your facts before you go tromping about with the red flag of revenge. Battle Fleet Gothic, Blood Bowl, Necromunda and Mordheim were all around befor your so very beloved lotr. Also pick up some hobbying skills and make your own damn movement trays. Lazy git. As for there minis I have to sya they have goten alot better over the years, most notably space marines. I remember back in the day youd have to chip and scrape there arms just to get them on if they didnt happen to be just a huge chunk of metal in the first place.

And to the rest of you. Granted im not happy with there price increases or how they abuse there consumers. But you know what. They brought into my world a hobby that I love and have played ever since I was very youngue. Regardless of how crappy the rules are, you cannot denie that it is fun to play the game (Unless your either a) a rules lawyer. Or B) Some one whos just into tourny play.) Its made me friends which I can still call friends to this day. And some very memorable moments.

So you know yha the prices suck but I for one don't care. Ill pay any price to do what I love and enjoy. And if that brings me happiness so what?

The problem is that they are only concerned with profits and the same goes for forge world, 300 bucks for a titan, i dont care how big they are or how detailed, what they and GW do costs no more than making a $10 action figure, plus we put them together and paint them!

I just started playing and yes i did pay money but i searched for the cheapest prices, but how else can i play 40K im not gonna build a whole army from scratch?

But i will say this, im buying whatever else i think im gonna need for my army before the prices go up then its all ebay, rogue trader and here for what i need

Golga wrote:
Wow just wow. Learn your facts before you go tromping about with the red flag of revenge. Battle Fleet Gothic, Blood Bowl, Necromunda and Mordheim were all around befor your so very beloved lotr. Also pick up some hobbying skills and make your own damn movement trays. Lazy git. As for there minis I have to sya they have goten alot better over the years, most notably space marines. I remember back in the day youd have to chip and scrape there arms just to get them on if they didnt happen to be just a huge chunk of metal in the first place.

And to the rest of you. Granted im not happy with there price increases or how they abuse there consumers. But you know what. They brought into my world a hobby that I love and have played ever since I was very youngue. Regardless of how crappy the rules are, you cannot denie that it is fun to play the game (Unless your either a) a rules lawyer. Or B) Some one whos just into tourny play.) Its made me friends which I can still call friends to this day. And some very memorable moments.

So you know yha the prices suck but I for one don't care. Ill pay any price to do what I love and enjoy. And if that brings me happiness so what?

you have put a very good point across, i do liek you thoroughly enjoy playing the game and modelling and painting, and giving me the opertunity to be creative through something else other than drawing.

There is absolutely nothing wrong when a company puts profits as their #1 priority. That's what they're there for: to make money.

The problem is, nothing GW is doing points at a sustainable business plan that will keep them making money. Hiking prices does nothing but send a GW customer to a distributor that will offer a bulk discount.

So you know yha the prices suck but I for one don't care. Ill pay any price to do what I love and enjoy. And if that brings me happiness so what?

What do you do in five more years when you're the only one willing to pay those prices? Mechwarrior and Heroclix were two games that brought a helluvalot of people happiness, and they're basically "gone" now. What then?

sourclams wrote:
If you have unreasonably high operating costs, you don't jack your prices out of the realm of your competitive market, you cut your high operating costs.

Does GW have real competition? I'm not sure they do, no one else in their business operates on their scale, its an intel >AMD or MS>Apple competition, theoretical compareables but not really the same.

I think pricing wise, their priced to compete with other luxury hobbies, and as such are right in the same range.

Jack

I don't have any real hate towards GW, but my love of them has faltered and died over the years. Its just the cost of the minis and how many you need to make an effective army. The crazy cost of the white dwarfs really pushed me over the edge. I've stopped buying anything new for the last 5 months now, and will not purchase more until all my current models are finished. That said, when I do buy more I will not have the brand loyalty I once did. In the future all model companies will be viewed equally when it comes to the spending of my hard earned cash.

I would disagree. Their target demographic is the type of people who frequent comic book stores and dungeons and dragons adventures as well as teenagers with disposable income. That average price level is about $100 initially and maybe $30 or so a month for however long you can keep them "hooked".

GW is never going to compete with "real" luxury hobbies like paintball, airsoft, or golf. There's a quasiprofessional social element there (military, law enforcement, business) that 40k can't even begin to attract. Nobody 'does' 40k professionally, and there's no exercise or activity component. The only thing that keeps them in the running is their background material like the BL novels and IP that they sell to computer games companies.

Also, compare price to value.

Essentially, the more you play, the better the value the models offer. If you took the cost of collecting your latest army, including all the paints, glues etc, and then divided it by the amount you used said army in a year, again, including painting and building time, you can get incredible value out the little plastic men we all play with.

For example. My Savage Orc army now would cost....£75 for the Wyvern conversion, £144 for the infantry, £24 for the Shamans, and...erm...£70 for the Boarboyz. Adding in the Fantasy Rulebook, paints, Orcy book etc, I reckon to get this army onto the field of battle cost me in the region of £400, give or take. Thats quite some price (not helped by the Wyvern conversion needing bits from 3 kits, and being conceived AFTER the demise of bitz!) I can kick out 20 Savage Orcs in.....8 hours of painting, so thats 24 hours right there. Wyvern took me 3 hours to convert, and about 4 to paint, 31 so far, Boarboyz take about an hour each, so thats 41, and the Shamans about the same I reckon, so I'd expect 44 hours painting and modelling time. I can easily do that in 5 weeks. Assuming I wait until it's all painted before I start gaming (I didn't!) that leaves 47 weeks of gaming in a calender year. Now I can get a single game in a week currently due to work commitments. Each 2,000 point game will last, on average, 2.5 hours. So, 2.5 hours multiplied by the 47 weeks left over....117.5 hours of gaming in that year. So, in all, the army as a project and a gaming entity takes up 161.5 hours of my time.

Dividing the cost of the army in it's entirety, by the hours it takes up, gives my hobby an hourly cost of £2.72, again give or take on the fractions.

That to me is pretty damn good value. A pint of my beloved Hobgoblin is £2.90, and takes about half an hour to drink. Cinema locally is £8.50 for a film, lasting around 2 hours. So compared to other activites, GW is a good value for money hobby for me.

Now, of course, your milage may vary depending on the various, erm, variables. I tend to stick with an army for at least a year before moving on, and my gaming time/painting time is pretty much set. You might not bother with the painting which, whilst reducing the cost, does of course reduce the hours spent on the Hobby. You might only get to game once a month at a smaller points value.

But I think you should try the above experiment, and certainly compare it to other activities you indulge in, including if appropriate other game systems. Even if the value you get from your purchases isn't as good as mine, it's still an interesting little diversion.

So, to recap....take the total cost of your project, including for balances sake all the rules and gubbins you need for it, and divide it by the projected amount of time, to get your 'hourly' cost.

sourclams wrote:I would disagree. Their target demographic is the type of people who frequent comic book stores and dungeons and dragons adventures as well as teenagers with disposable income. That average price level is about $100 initially and maybe $30 or so a month for however long you can keep them "hooked".

GW is never going to compete with "real" luxury hobbies like paintball, airsoft, or golf. There's a quasiprofessional social element there (military, law enforcement, business) that 40k can't even begin to attract. Nobody 'does' 40k professionally, and there's no exercise or activity component. The only thing that keeps them in the running is their background material like the BL novels and IP that they sell to computer games companies.

Is someone who has played on a paintball team, with sponsors and everything i can say that it will never reach the same level. Paintball was also much more expensive than this hobby, im talking $1300 a season plus gear and paint. Plus paintball has a huge market! more than many other extreme sports. This hobby however doesnt have the same market penetration (hehe i said penetration...sorry) meaning there are much less people who participate and are active in the hobby, and the cost does hurt it, the same thing goes for paintball but its easier, in my opinion to spend $1200 on a high end gun with moving parts thats sophisticated more so than on plastic sets of things you have to put together and this reason is why the hobby hasnt grown more.

So im not that mad about prices(lets face it paintball and being in college, left me in debt. Beer wasnt cheap) however they are getting out of comtrol, and left unchecked with only increase.

They have to increase prices. Is part of being a PLC. They have a legal obligation to their shareholders to maximise profits, and thus dividends. And raising prices is a sure fire way of achieving this.

You don't have to like it, just accept that it's not mindless greed.

Though of course we now come round to the are the stores worth it question with regard to overheads etc. But lets not go into that for fear of devolving the thread. Though if anyone does fancy a chinwag about it, feel free to PM me.

GW stole my dog, killed my kid, and ran over my wife.

Or did they run over the dog? Bah, never could tell those two apart...

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:They have to increase prices. Is part of being a PLC. They have a legal obligation to their shareholders to maximise profits, and thus dividends. And raising prices is a sure fire way of achieving this.

You don't have to like it, just accept that it's not mindless greed.

Though of course we now come round to the are the stores worth it question with regard to overheads etc. But lets not go into that for fear of devolving the thread. Though if anyone does fancy a chinwag about it, feel free to PM me.

It depends the one store i went into of theres was when i was in high school and they weren't friendly or helpful, they were dicks and treated people who werent uber geeks about 40k like crap.

That doesnt really help people buy stuff.

and i also agree with another who said they hound you to buy stuff, thats never made me buy anuthing they should just be helpful.

Interesting thread.

I think the real reason people like to complain is that they care about their hobby and feel that GW is mismanaging their business and endangering future enjoyment they might have. I.e. if GW goes out of business, or if they raise prices "too high" that they drive away the people they play with, they won't be able to play.

In my view, GW has a short-term view/strategy and are basically run as an old era business. They run as a push system, basically pushing product onto their customers, not taking customer feedback in product design/development. Their primary focus is on profit maximization, versus customer value. This is why a lot of people feel they are out of touch. Most companies have realized that push systems in business are highly inefficient and result in stifled performance. Most companies nowadays are trying, or have already, moved to a pull system where the customer demand pulls new product through the value chain.

In the last decade, companies that have taken a focus on generating value to the customer versus the traditional profit maximizing view have done remarkably well. By focusing on driving and delivering customer value, profit naturally comes as a consequence (assuming you can run an efficient operation).

**Maximizing profit should not be the tool used to reach the goal of making profits. Maximizing profit should be the goal, where the tool to get you there is to bring customer value.

I can imagine why it might be hard for them to realize this, especially since they've been operating like this for decades. The market is aware of this too, and it's a big reason why GW has been just scraping by, year on year. As they continue on the same path and strategy, their stock has continued a steady decline over the years. For a company that makes 70+% gross margin and is still unable to turn a profit....well...that is just a sad statement about their general business/operating strategy. It also goes to show that just increasing prices will not save your business...in fact, many times you are trading long term (lifetime) profit for short term survival. It's a self-cannibalizing strategy.

As for what they could do to turn things around...I think they are in huge trouble as a business long term. Their one bright point is their licensing IP. If they don't get in some really good change management to re-engineer their entire business model, I could easily see them become a pure IP license company and drop their miniature line, especially giving their current train of thought (max out short term profit).

To disclose, I stopped playing GW product in about 2005, and had only purchase a few orks off of ebay (used) to paint, since then. I just find GW to be an excellent case study of how not to run a modern business. I hope they can turn things around, but on their current course, it's a sinking ship, and has been for many years now.

Acheron, I agree completely. Running GW like Granddad's old drug store is going to see them limp along until eventually their credit rating gets cut and the CEO gets fired for someone more visionary.

Their IP is their only real asset, but they squander it on, excluding a small handful, very average writers and shoddy game design. I can't say it enough, the game is what creates demand for the models. No game, no models, and people stop playing the game when it reaches "the point" where it's no longer fun/easy to play.

It's easy to sell kids $100 worth of misc. crap. But at some point, significant revenue is going to come from retention and continuous collectors. I'm willing to bet that hobby recruitment barely pays for the stores and staff, so if retention shrinks, then where does the rest of the money come from.... ? Right, nowhere.

As an aside, Forgeworld should be an absolute gold mine for a miniatures company, so why does it feel like it's run out of somebody's basement? What other company would you be willing to buy bent, misshapen, and sometimes incomplete product with absolute gak for customer service?

My real problem with the prices getting marked up is that I have a ton of friends who really want into the 40k. They seem really excited about it and are completely into the fluff and everything. They are willing to spend the time assembling models, painting them, and playing the game. What they aren't willing to do is to drop hundred or so dollars on it as an initial investment(And then making them pay more to play bigger games). They are also are tired of using proxies and being limited to my army books, codexes, and rulebooks. We all live real lives and some of us really can't justify spending a ton of money on something that amounts to a plastic tank or plastic men. And it is especially a gigantic hurdle when you consider that $22 is 10 Guardsmen while if you spend that same amount, you get around 200 green soldiers. I just find it hard to defend GW when they raise their prices. Yeah, they make more money from the people who will buy it no matter what, but then they lose customers because they really won't spend ridiculous amounts of money(and it really is ridiculous) just to play. At the end of the day, if I want to play a game with my friends, I'm playing L4D, WoW, TF2, D&D, or WoD. Unfortunately, it is just a natural drawback of table top war games.

GW is competing with video games, which are cheaper and offer more for the price. They raise there prices to keep up profits and this cycle will continue until people dont pay and then they will go out of business.

Look at what video games, L4D is the best example they constantly run sales and cut the price and they have made more money as a result. GW should take a page out of valves book and do the same.

Acheron wrote:Interesting thread.

I think the real reason people like to complain is that they care about their hobby and feel that GW is mismanaging their business and endangering future enjoyment they might have. I.e. if GW goes out of business, or if they raise prices "too high" that they drive away the people they play with, they won't be able to play.

This. Only a moron would look at most of these complaints and think "OMG why does everyone hate GW???!!?!??! LEAVE GW ALONE!!11"

I bitch because, unlike the OP apparently, I actually want GW to stay around for years to come and I honestly don't believe they're going to if they keep up with this failing way of doing business. So like most people I criticize them for their stupid practices. Like raising prices when sales drop because people can't afford the hobby anymore. We've all heard it a hundred times, "I'd play if it wasn't so expensive", and for those of us stupid enough to keep playing it just gets worse and worse.

As an aside, Forgeworld should be an absolute gold mine for a miniatures company, so why does it feel like it's run out of somebody's basement?

Because it practically is.

And to answer your second question, hell no, I wouldn't buy models of that quality from anyone else. And after my last foray into FW where I bought a barracuda, I haven't even really given them the time of day, either. The casting quality was horrible and I honestly couldn't believe I had spent $120 on it. Now granted the main reason I haven't bought from FW is the price, but part of that is because I honestly don't feel I'd be getting my moneys worth anyway.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:They have to increase prices. Is part of being a PLC. They have a legal obligation to their shareholders to maximise profits, and thus dividends. And raising prices is a sure fire way of achieving this.

There we go again. I don´t know UK´s business law but your statement sounds weird. So any company based in the UK must give dividends by law? How about a company that decides to expand using last year´s profits to offer a higher share value, are they breaking the law? What´s the punishment for the board if they fail to increase profits, do they go to jail?

Any company, traded or not, will want to maximise profits to ensure continuity, that´s an economic law making a legal obligation out of it can backfire, it´s like saying that you have the legal duty to breath. Ridiculous!

So MDG, please point me to someplace where I can read said legal obligation I´m really curious.

M.

And one could also argue that simply raising prices over, and over, and over isn't doing jack all to maximize profits as shown by the fact that they've been barely scraping by for a time now. So really someone should have already gone to jail if that were the case.

I won't say that they should never have to raise prices, everyone raises prices for everything, nothing is as cheap as it used to be. But doing it this often is just ridiculous. Imagine if someone decided a cup of coffee was worth $5-6 one year, and then $10-$12 all of a sudden a few months later, would people just keep gladly paying for it anyway and say "Oh well, them's business" or would they get pissed off?

I personally don't hate GW. I hate their practices. Their customer service is straight ace, I can't complain there. But their distribution network is spotty and inefficient, their relationships with independent retailers is strained and poor, their CEO is bonkers (what sane CEO debt-finances dividends? the only possible reason for that is to double Mr. Kirby's yearly income through his stock holdings) and their actual stores feel like used car lots. I love the 40k and fantasy universes. As much as I complain about the rules, I still play every week. I think their design team and release schedules are mediocre at best, and I think they could do better (first and foremost by ditching Alessio straight away) and they have some serious finance and operations issues.

So no, I don't *hate* GW, I think they have a lot of problems that a handful of sane and competent individuals could fix.

Another thing I don't like is the lack of support.

I don't read the FAQ's anymore, they're just awful.

White Dwarf became a catalog rather than an interesting magazine.

And the rules are currently in limbo for both games (especially WHFB, go play Daemons vs. Empire)

I don't care about prices(I'll order from the Warstore), but damn it GW, give me something interesting to keep me in the hobby!

(PlanetStrike is definitely one of those things)

Kind of on topic.

I was digging through old stuff and found the Armylist pamphlet that came with my 2nd Ed Ravenwing Attack Force. It was a 750pt army in a box. Chappy on bike, 5 bike squad, attack bike, and old metal speeder. All with special RW metal bits. If I remember right, it cost me about $125 in 1996-97(?)

Now I can essentially build these from the Ravenwing Battleforce and it costs me $90. 12 years later.
Buying the same components individually costs about $125.

A squad of 10 metal marines or guard in 94-98 was $30(?). Now it is $35 for the same number of higher technical quality, multi-pose, plastic models.
Material costs are less, but capital costs are more. And there is only a $5 increase over a 12 year span, for essentially the same product?

Granted, we are required to use more models in an army, but that is our choice to play at that level.
I have had great games at 500 and 1000 points, where the costs were probably a battleforce for the models needed.
I think sometimes we need to step back and think about how it used to be with our heads, not our rose-tinted memories.

Another point.
If you are a video-gamer, you are not spending less than a TTGer. You buy a system every 4 years. Say about $100/yr.
Then conservatively buy 5 new games in a year. That adds $300 at current costs.
That is not even adding in online costs, or peripherals you may buy (GH or Rockband).

That is about equal to the cost of a 1500pt GW MEQ army.
maybe an ork horde if you ebay well. Still not a IG army tho, I admit.
Video gaming is in another level altogether, if you have to keep up with the latest, greatest.
Or collecting DVDs, or music (legally), or even putting together a decent library of books.

skrulnik wrote:
Another point.
If you are a video-gamer, you are not spending less than a TTGer. You buy a system every 4 years. Say about $100/yr.
Then conservatively buy 5 new games in a year. That adds $300 at current costs.
That is not even adding in online costs, or peripherals you may buy (GH or Rockband).

You might as well as compare it to Ferrari collectors then
Somethings just arnt meant to be compared the same way.

Hobbies are expensive, no matter what it is. Sadly with GW it just seems more apparent.

Though I remember the days of the not-so-multi-pose plastics being 16$ CDN for 10. Good times

LunaHound wrote:
You might as well as compare it to Ferrari collectors then
Somethings just arnt meant to be compared the same way.

Why is a tabletop game not comparable to a video game system?
Both are entertainment.
Both are in similar niches, tho vgaming has grown much more in recent years.
There is constant turnover of base systems, but the old ones are equally usable.
There is a thriving second hand market for both as well.
If you keep playing, you keep buying.
I do not see a difference.

@ skrulnik

Console company aside , most games are produced from different companies. One video game's life expectancy and worth is both shorter and cheaper than a "collectible" fieldable warhammer army.

What im trying to say is , 1 video game company messes up , you can turn tail easily and find something else. Not so easy for Warhammer since you "invested" in it already.

How else can GW 's mistakes codex after codex keep going and yet still keep us hooked? Because we cant easily get rid of our current *luggage and find an alternative.

Vaktathi wrote:So no, I don't *hate* GW, I think they have a lot of problems that a handful of sane and competent individuals could fix.

I hold the same opinion. I want nothing more than GW to be a successful business, I just don't think that being a successful business and being good to those that give them all this money are mutually exclusive. Rules, rules support, release scheds, relationships with independant retailers - all of these things have issues, some minor, some extreme, and yet they don't see to either know, care about or want to do anything about them.

So that brings me to my main question - are these problems that are 'obvious' to us actually obvious. Let's use an easy topic, Dark Eldar, as an example:

Statement: 10+ years to revise a Codex is a joke. How can they treat customers like that? Is it because:

1. They don't know.
2. They don't care.
3. Something else.
4. All of the above.

Are the 'obvious' problems truly that obvious, or are we just paying more attention than we should be?

I don't hate GW.
I just don't buy as much of their stuff anymore (although, since I've been playing this game from the get-go, I've really got enough to keep me going for many years) as I don't really need anymore, and if I do, I can probably build what I do need (and it will cost me less than a GW kit, & be distinctively mine).
When I do buy GW stuff, I go through online discounters.

If I only had the option of paying GW retail, I'd have given it up years ago.

The DE codex was revised in 2002, wasn't it?

I'm starting to see some improvements in the new codecies, particularly those by Phil Kelly and the most recent IG codex. I was worrying that their codex line was going downhill after the sorry attempt at writing that the CSM codex was.

Luna

I guess I just do not see the different companies. I am comparing the hobbies.
Video games and tabletop games.
Not 40k and, say, Halo.

To me GW is not the only thing out there for Gaming.
If I am not happy with how an army works, I can just as easily switch to Field of Glory, or Flames of War.
Or I can work on another army for a GW game. I got options.
Same for consoles.
If I am unhappy with one platform, I can switch, or rent/buy another game from a different producer.
Either way, I am still putting money into that hobby.


I think a big difference in value among those of us in this hobby can be if one sees assembly and painting as time spent, or time doing something enjoyable.
If one considers the assembly and painting as a necessary evil, than there is less value.
I do not. I consider everything from looking at the sprue to using a unit in game as entertainment time I am getting from my purchase.
Well, everything except scraping mold lines. That I consider a necessary evil.

The conclusion: we love GW's games and models, we hate their business model/practices and prices.

Basically.

Cheese Elemental wrote:The DE codex was revised in 2002, wasn't it?

Doesn't count. And besides, it doesn't answer the question I put forward, and my question is non-specific to Dark Eldar anyway, it could be anything within their business, I just picked DE because it's a well known one.

It was a small revision at that. All I remember were a few new Vehicle upgrades that no one used if it wasn't Nightshields and occasionally terrorfexes(or horrorfexes, whichever one was vehicle mounted.)

sourclams wrote:There is absolutely nothing wrong when a company puts profits as their #1 priority. That's what they're there for: to make money.

The problem is, nothing GW is doing points at a sustainable business plan that will keep them making money. Hiking prices does nothing but send a GW customer to a distributor that will offer a bulk discount.

So you know yha the prices suck but I for one don't care. Ill pay any price to do what I love and enjoy. And if that brings me happiness so what?

What do you do in five more years when you're the only one willing to pay those prices? Mechwarrior and Heroclix were two games that brought a helluvalot of people happiness, and they're basically "gone" now. What then?

Um mechwarriors died because wizkids destroyed it by cutting out there booster packs and having no prize support for there games and tournys (Action packs my ass). And as for hero click well Tops shut down wizkids because they kept horribly destroying there service. (Tops owns wizkids. or did anyways) It does not have much to do with price for either one of your examples.

And as for me well Ill be the only one with some of the cool new models that they wil be releasing for -army name here- And if games workshop is still around in 5 years I apparently am not the only one still buying there models.

Miguelsan wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:They have to increase prices. Is part of being a PLC. They have a legal obligation to their shareholders to maximise profits, and thus dividends. And raising prices is a sure fire way of achieving this.

There we go again. I don´t know UK´s business law but your statement sounds weird. So any company based in the UK must give dividends by law? How about a company that decides to expand using last year´s profits to offer a higher share value, are they breaking the law? What´s the punishment for the board if they fail to increase profits, do they go to jail?

Any company, traded or not, will want to maximise profits to ensure continuity, that´s an economic law making a legal obligation out of it can backfire, it´s like saying that you have the legal duty to breath. Ridiculous!

So MDG, please point me to someplace where I can read said legal obligation I´m really curious.

M.

The legal situation of a company is that the owners hire the management to run it for the owners' benefit.

There are various remedies under UK company law if the owners feel the managers are doing a bad job -- for example, the shareholders of a PLC can vote the board out of office at the annual general meeting.

Only in extreme cases would criminal law be involved, for example if there was fraud or embezzlement.

I think a lot of the grievances (spelling?) are due to the higher prices, everyone knows you gotta raise prices at some point but the way GW are doing it this time around is beyond what most people would take as a joke.

I like most people have enough income to play GW and continue to buy etc. Im not going to though, I didnt think id ever have a limit for my hobby but with these prices its gone for me, any love of the hobby has been washed away. GW stopped caring years ago.

Wil they miss the money id have spent in store, damn right they will, id drop between £500 to however much because i got a lot of stuff and was happy with it. Now though GW have decreased numbers in a box and yet charge almost double. Ie 20 guardsmen for £18, now come june you get 10 of the same, no extras, no different special weapons or heavies for £15.

I was looking forward to the guard codex as i really wanted to get them, now well im just not bothering as its not worth it. Loads of people i used to game with have moved onto other companies and i will be doing the same. If GW go out of business, its no ones fault bar there own. Id like them to stay in business and see sense that there driving people away.

Back to an earlier point about spending £500+ New starters come in and lay down a lot of money to begin with, but they may not last and they wont come in store and spend £500+ every month. Im not saying i did, but i get through painting mini`s quick, so a new force would be bought, built and painted straight away, then id get another one or id add a tonne to what force i had. My Black Legion are well in excess of 30,000pts at last count and that was 8 months ago or some such.

Now well i have no use for it, yeah i could keep it in the hope GW pull there fingers out but they wont, they never have done. So me and my money that would have been going direct to them are now going elsewhere

Every time the prices go up (which they do fairly regularly) there is a storm of complaint on boards like Dakka.

It never does any good.

If players really can't stand the prices, they should look at other figures and other games. There is lots of choice out there.

Their business decisions don't make much sense:
Not lowering GW canada prices to meet US prices only screwed over Canadian stores as everyone went to the stores in the states. All in all making decisions which make no sense considering basic economics.

Thinking about 90% of their customer base would by the plastic table top (yes they actually thought that apparently)

raising prices to make more money will only loose them money in the end by making barriers to start new armies for new players or for old.

Not focusing on lifting sales in armies with "no interest" (dark eldar, sisters) disinterest is due to no current rules and/or new models. If a DA codex was released and new models were made their would be a ton of interest.

having staff who abuse their power to make the armies they play better than others (Gav thorpe)

lack of rules editing and intelligent Q and A support.

Kilkrazy wrote:Every time the prices go up (which they do fairly regularly) there is a storm of complaint on boards like Dakka.

It never does any good.

If players really can't stand the prices, they should look at other figures and other games. There is lots of choice out there.

Looking at GW's accounts for the last few years and their continued decline in Turnover (in real terms) and the actual losses they have been making, they are!

However ranting is a natural response when someone who enjoys something has that thing taken away from them by force. It's a simple law of physics, or something!

I would say that every time GW increases their prices there is much ranting on the tubes, more hobbyists quit and go and do other things. That's what I believe the evidence points to anyhow. Of course GW choose to ignore this evidence of the reaction to price rises and still persist in them... but hey, everyone knows GW's directors are greedy morons!

Trying to stop internet ranting every time the price goes up is like trying to stop the tide from coming in.

In any case, this years price rises are the largest seen for some time. LotR infantry boxes up by 33% from £15 to £20, their cavalry up by 67% from £12 to £20! In a deflationary recession that's just taking the pee almost on the scale of an MP's expense account! In the face of such a reaming I believe some nerd rage is entirely justifiable!

Well, I was going to be building a fantasy army in 2010...

Wait, I still am!
http://www.gamezoneminiatures.de/

Whilst getting replacements for certain 40k models is an issue, fantasy ranges out there are a solid rival for gw's now insanely priced minis

Just as an aside, I just bought 6 AT-43 kollosus and 2 kossaks which i'll be converting into killa kans and dreads for my Ork army from the Warstore, £40 instead of £140...

Ya-Boo Sucks to you GW!

Kilkrazy wrote:If players really can't stand the prices, they should look at other figures and other games. There is lots of choice out there.

I think it's really sad that you think that's a valid suggestion, or that you think people haven't been. It's about one step up from "If you hate it, stop playing!".

The only problem I have with proxying non-GW models in GW games is the thought "what's the point"?

You may as well go the whole hog if you are playing in a non-GW-official environment and play a non-GW game!

That way you don't have to play the crappy unbalanced rules either!

Kilkrazy wrote:The legal situation of a company is that the owners hire the management to run it for the owners' benefit.

There are various remedies under UK company law if the owners feel the managers are doing a bad job -- for example, the shareholders of a PLC can vote the board out of office at the annual general meeting.

Only in extreme cases would criminal law be involved, for example if there was fraud or embezzlement.

Your answer makes more sense than MDG´s. There is a big difference between having to look for the owner´s benefit than having to maximise profits. The former is not always best served by basing your management in a short term profit increase and devil take the hindmost that some companies seem to like.

Osbad: You might like to play with your friends that have official miniatures with the miniatures that you like using a common set of rules. Not liking GW´s prices doesn´t that they don´t make nice minis or that they have a cool background.

M.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If players really can't stand the prices, they should look at other figures and other games. There is lots of choice out there.

I think it's really sad that you think that's a valid suggestion, or that you think people haven't been. It's about one step up from "If you hate it, stop playing!".

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Well, I was going to be building a fantasy army in 2010...

Wait, I still am!
http://www.gamezoneminiatures.de/

Whilst getting replacements for certain 40k models is an issue, fantasy ranges out there are a solid rival for gw's now insanely priced minis

Just as an aside, I just bought 6 AT-43 kollosus and 2 kossaks which i'll be converting into killa kans and dreads for my Ork army from the Warstore, £40 instead of £140...

Ya-Boo Sucks to you GW!

Miguelsan wrote:Osbad: You might like to play with your friends that have official miniatures with the miniatures that you like using a common set of rules. Not liking GW´s prices doesn´t that they don´t make nice minis or that they have a cool background.

Agreed. I'm just a grumpy old fart. Once you've bitten the poison apple though its hard to go back...

Looking at the Oz tournament experience (which I only know through having listened to the odd podcast), it seems that there GW stopped supporting the tournament scene, but the fans kept it going and developed it. The official rules set a common denominator around which it is possible to construct a plausible competition environment. Without the big GW logo it would be hard to find something else of common acceptance. Which is fine if that's your bag.

I was speaking from my personal experience though, which was that once we'd taken the mental step of moving away from buying new GW figures, we sort of hit against the notion of expanding/developing our existing GW games armies, or branching off from those games and trying new stuff. Being the age and disposition most of us were, trying out stuff that GW doesn't do (or doesn't do in a way that suits us) was the next logical step.

Its not that we have a non-GW religion. Its just in the decision "I want to indulge in X amount of fun, and I have £Y to spend", companies other than GW tend to deliver more X for less Y. Or so we've found. If GW improved their offering and reduced their prices we'd no doubt be back. As things stand, our hobby budget goes overwhelmingly elsewhere, apart from the occasional second-hand model.

I used to be like that. I wanted to play with my Warzone Samurai using the old Warzone rules but everybody else was having a riot using 40K so I decided to buy the few Eldar minis that I like, Falcons, WS, Scorpions and proxy the rest.

I know that some people will refuse to play with me because it´s not GW but I´m not loosing any sleep over it.

M.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/239729.page

Golga wrote:And as for me well Ill be the only one with some of the cool new models that they wil be releasing for -army name here-

Pfft - The "I got something you don't!" mentality is so 4th grade.

meangreenstompa wrote:Just as an aside, I just bought 6 AT-43 kollosus and 2 kossaks which i'll be converting into killa kans and dreads for my Ork army from the Warstore, £40 instead of £140...

They do make nice Kans, don't they? I'm glad I got some before they sold out earlier.

Got some information today about the price rise. Space marine tactical squad £25 a box

Is that £2.50 per plastic figure?

bloody nora... thast worse than i had expected ! £25 !i could buy a leman russ for that or i should say could have.
I was hoping it wouldnt have been this bad, if thats a true value then sorry but my pruichases are going to be so few and far between my army will take decades to increase in size, unless i start using german tanks for my DKOK

Dead Memories wrote:Got some information today about the price rise. Space marine tactical squad £25 a box

Pfffft! Quit winding us up, they won't be that much.

Not winding you up. This is genuine. The guy that told me this used to be GW area manager for where i live before he was sacked by GW cos he wasnt happy with what they were doing as a company. He is friends with one of the top model designers, name escapes me but the guy made the new mounted chaos lord, and he is still mates with some of the staff at the local gw and those were the prices mentioned from the staff and the model designer

The thing that confuses me about GW is their treatment of the FLGS.

They make rules for online retailers about using shopping carts. The excuse here is that they don't want your FLGS to have to compete with online retailers. Then they make some models collector's/special order, ensuring that we can't buy these at our FLGS.

The price increase, to me, is another way of GW sticking it to the FLGS.

Here is how I see it:
GW raises prices.
Fewer models are sold.
Profit margin per model doesn't change for the FLGS.
FLGS makes less money, in an economy that isn't favorable to hobbies anyway.

Statement: 10+ years to revise a Codex is a joke. How can they treat customers like that? Is it because:

1. They don't know.
2. They don't care.
3. Something else.
4. All of the above.

Are the 'obvious' problems truly that obvious, or are we just paying more attention than we should be?

I feel the same way about starcraft and blizzard.

It is frustrating when the design studio or whoever it is makes decisions that make the hobby less fun for lots of people.

I definitely felt 4th edition 40K was very poorly managed, and that it detracted hugely from my enjoyment. These days I think there are still things that annoy me a lot, but generally the management has gotten better.

Games Workshop is in the business of selling models. Period.

The rule books and codexes, etc. are marketing tools designed to sell models.

Models that sell well get codexes redone more often (space marines, etc.) because lots of people will rush out to buy new products based on said popular models, and for every disgruntled veteran who doesn't like the changes to a dex or model range you will have 10-30 kids new to the game buying a new force of the new hotness on mommy and daddy's credit card.

Tactical Squad Box going from £18 to £25 is another good reason to hate GW. As is 20 Cadians at £18 going to 10 Cadians at £15. I really hope that this price increase isn't true.

GW started out as a home grown business with the idea to produce cool models and gaming rules.

Now its a company and its main concern is the bottom line.

George Spiggott wrote:

Dead Memories wrote:Got some information today about the price rise. Space marine tactical squad £25 a box

Pfffft! Quit winding us up, they won't be that much.

Well, 25 GBP is just under $38.25 USD, or less than 10% increase over current US prices.

As an American, this seems like a fair price for you Brits to pay!




Of course, if GWUS raises US prices to match Canadian prices, I'm going to get out my torch and pitchfork!

They're £18 currently in the UK, you do the math.

I don't have to, GW did it for me.

Clearly, 18 GBP is far too little if their largest market is willing to pay roughly 23 GBP for the exact same box.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Clearly, 18 GBP is far too little

*Is stunned*

JohnHwangDD just said a GW price was too low. Mark that one people.

DD, riddle me this, do delusional people consider you delusional?

H.B.M.C. wrote:do delusional people consider you delusional?

I would have written, "Do delusional people consider you?"

It just sounds funnier to me.

Too existential for my liking Malf.

I asked my FLGS/Indie Retailer and from what they said, my Daemons army may wait until more models are in plastic.

Hollismason wrote:GW started out as a home grown business with the idea to produce cool models and gaming rules.

Now its a company and its main concern is the bottom line.

Isn't that what any start up company wants to do? make more money over time? The reason behind making cool models was to make money, that's been the bottom line since the beginning.. it's not something new or new in the past 5 years.. lol

if only gw could unwax thier ears and listen to what thier consumers want, then possibly they could make MORE money if they change. i don't see why they are blind to this fact.

two_heads_talking wrote:

Hollismason wrote:GW started out as a home grown business with the idea to produce cool models and gaming rules.

Now its a company and its main concern is the bottom line.

Isn't that what any start up company wants to do? make more money over time? The reason behind making cool models was to make money, that's been the bottom line since the beginning.. it's not something new or new in the past 5 years.. lol

It is possible to price their customers out of the game. Sure, they can use their old models but how would GW make money if those gamers don't buy anything.

I will respond to all of this very simply.

I'll leave GW alone when they begin making their game all about the hobby again and not all about the fast money grab.
"Hey GW note to self you tell all your employees that working there you won't be rich but if you like the hobby youll have a great time. Why not start living by your own rules."

That's why the rules and codexes keep changing. It invalidates older models or brings in new ones which are too powerful within the game for players to ignore (except for Space Pope, Vespids and Sniper Drones.)

LiterateWolf wrote:

two_heads_talking wrote:

Hollismason wrote:GW started out as a home grown business with the idea to produce cool models and gaming rules.

Now its a company and its main concern is the bottom line.

Isn't that what any start up company wants to do? make more money over time? The reason behind making cool models was to make money, that's been the bottom line since the beginning.. it's not something new or new in the past 5 years.. lol

It is possible to price their customers out of the game. Sure, they can use their old models but how would GW make money if those gamers don't buy anything.

That, I believe is called a catch 22.. They've priced me out, did so about 3 years ago.. I'm merely saying that it's ok to do what they do, we, who can't afford it won't buy it.. and if in the end, GW sees that they are losing sales, they'll have to adjust.. Call it boycotting with my wallet. If enough people do just that, and I also mean purchasing from anywhere, then we'll see what GW does.. Until then, buckle up and keep your hands in the ride, because it's going to get bumpy.