Here's an idea for the Necrons that changes them from being MEqs into something unique.

Necron Warrior

WS4 BS4 S4 A1 T5 I1 W2 Ld 10 Sv-

Feel no pain
Fearless

Gauss Flayer
S4, AP1, Assualt 1 24"
Rending

The lack of a save stems from the fact they have no armor, they're metal skeletons, no metal skeletons in power armor. Feel no pain and T5 W2 represent their metal nature and their self repair.

The gauss guns are always described as shredding metal armor, so let's make it official. AP1 also means that they can destroy vehicle with a glancing hit.

Other units would get new stats based on this template.

AP 1 is rare a whole army of troops with it is a bit unfair a special rule would be better like on 6 always wounds and glances as well +1 to the damage chart making it so they can wreck vehicles on a glace and they need some kind of save, because there are lots of things that ignore feel no pain and you would be losing guys in swaths.

Even with no saves, that's blatantly unfair.

Power armour can take hits from gauss weapons in the novels. Having AP1 is just silly.

Interesting...but it seems like cover saves would take their defect away, while leaving them with anti-vehicle death beams.

yeah, having no saves is rediculous....warriors would be dropping like flies to anything, and think of close combat! Instakilling 2-wound guys with powerfists (which they already do, but still!) Also, fluff-wise: In several of the fluff stories, they don't drop to rocks hitting them (and with no saves rocks could kill them) and are pretty strong, as they are made of living metal. Living. Metal. sounds like it would be pretty strong, hence the 3+ save currently...

Also, AP1 weapons armywide: no...they would kill MEQS and other armies that have low troop numbers insanely fast...and 24" assault1 would probably turn into the best gunline ever. Also, rending plus AP1 still means that you won't glance nearly as often, as you only get D3 extra penetration, and 4+6+D3 is pretty bad compared to right now....+1 on the damage table is still a good idea

Eight Ball wrote:yeah, having no saves is rediculous....warriors would be dropping like flies to anything, and think of close combat! Instakilling 2-wound guys with powerfists (which they already do, but still!) Also, fluff-wise:

that's T5, 2W (so no instant death unless you're strength 10) AND a 4+ save to almost everything. Sure it's no armor save but they're not helpless.

oh yeah, forgot T5, but STILL, anything AP1/2 (Plasma Cannons anyone?) will tear these guys apart, and 2 wounds + no save + fnp means they are weaker than 1 wound + 3+save +WBB...

Eight Ball wrote:oh yeah, forgot T5, but STILL, anything AP1/2 (Plasma Cannons anyone?) will tear these guys apart, and 2 wounds + no save + fnp means they are weaker than 1 wound + 3+save +WBB...

Ap1/2 tears everyone apart.

The toughness and save areas have been covered, so I won't go after that. Obviously, I'm not a fan.

AP1 on the entire army wouldn't do. I do however like rending and/or only a -1 to the damage chart. Assault 1 is interesting too. It'd make the warrios more in line with "mini-immortals". Mini things seem to be a theme in the Necron ideas.

Also, two other things to say about this:
-What would the price be (for say a Necron Warrior)?

-And also, I would like to say, that if you did this (no 3+ on any necron, just 2W and FNP) would mean that you would have to keep track of A LOT of wounds over the game (Warriors, Immortals, Destroyers, Wraiths, ...) which is why a 3+ works better...

The real question of an armor save, is what power of weapon can the 'just shrug off'?

Can they shug off bolters? Heavy Bolters & Autocannons? Anti-tank missiles?

With a toughness upgrade, they could join the ranks of 4+ armor troops.

For something compleatly different:

Toughness 6, Wounds 1, SV -, May not take Cover Saves, FNP
(This makes them rather resistant to most weapons. Bolters need 6 to wound, Even Plasma only wounds on a 3+, and they still get FNP against Krak Missiles. Only Melta weapons, Power Fists and simmilar Str 8+ AP 2/1 weapons can take them out on a saveless 2+. It also makes any special unit with a Inv. save super-nasty.)

T6, no cover saves is interesting, I like it.

Very, very different, probably better than 2 wounds.

I haaaaaaate u!
Aren't necrons good enough as it is?
Just replace thier Come Back rule with Feel No Pain.

That would be BROKEN!!!!!!!! I SAY NOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

Hmm.

KK, I'm with the whole "No AP 1" crowd, Just because it makes them the premier army for killing...any non-horde list.

I'm cool with them adding +1 to vehicle damage. I just don't like them shredding any armor in front of them, I feel Rending covers that well enough.

As to the latest stat suggestion...

lasgun in hands of imp guard: .5 hits, .083 wounds, .04 dead necrons
As opposed to (old necrons) .5 hits, .166 wounds, .11 unsaved, .055 "dead" necrons.

Bolter in hands of SM .66 hits, .11 wounds, .055
versus .66, .33, .11, .055

Intriguing. Let's fire a krak missile at them. BS 4, let's say.
.66 hits, .55 wounds, .275 dead necrons
.66 hit, .55 wounds, .55 unsaved.

I'm intrigued that the bolter was the same, but the armor piercing, We'll be back breaking krak, and the lasgun took a hit. of course, let's not forget our good friend melta
.66 hit, .55 wound, .55 dead necrons
.66 hit, .55 wound, .55 dead necrons

I like it.
I'd like to see some more work in this department.

Sorry KK, but Assault 1, S4, AP1 weapons on basic troops is a terrible idea.

What would they do against my orks? It would be a slaughter, but against space marines they'd be hugely overpowered.

Making armor useless against an entire army simply can't be balanced; they're either going to get destroyed by hordes, they're going to be incapable of losing to MEQs, or (most likely) both. Armor saves are too basic of a mechanic to be circumvented like that.

(Also, while I see your rationale for not giving the necrons armor saves, there are tons of things in the game that have armor saves without wearing armor; wraithlords/wraithguard, scarabs, talos, every type of tyranid, gun drones, etc. Also, look at how poisoned weapons affect units with high toughness, robotic or not; things swing both ways there. I don't know if necrons need to stay an MEQ, but I don't think it's unreasonable to give them an armor save to represent their metallic bodies.)

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Eight Ball wrote:oh yeah, forgot T5, but STILL, anything AP1/2 (Plasma Cannons anyone?) will tear these guys apart, and 2 wounds + no save + fnp means they are weaker than 1 wound + 3+save +WBB...

Ap1/2 tears everyone apart.

Sure does. That's why they don't hand it out that much.

Necrons should just have a 4++ invuln save and have 2 wounds and be immortal warriors. There you go. They should also be relentless.

It's tough to analyze a statline with out at least a rough point cost. What kind of price-point were you thinking KK?

I think it's over the top. I'd look at something more like:

Necron Warrior

WS3 BS3 S4 A1 T4 I2 W1 Ld 9 Sv 4+

Feel no pain
Fearless

Gauss Flayer
S4, AP4, Rapid Fire 24" range
Rending

I've thought for awhile that animated robots shouldn't have the same combat abilities as Space Marines Hurr! And, this would be accompanied by a point decrease. I get the basic reasoning behind the lack of a save, but I think that goes against too much of the general 40k gameplay to have no save. 4+ is nice, puts them between MEQs and GEQs. Cover is still important since there are a lot of AP4 weapons out there, but they're still not completely vulnerable. I don't like giving them a 24" assault weapon, that is way too powerful. Lets them just back-up away from assault elements while continuing to put out a lot of firepower.

dietrich wrote:I think it's over the top. I'd look at something more like:

Necron Warrior

WS3 BS3 S4 A1 T4 I2 W1 Ld 9 Sv 4+

Feel no pain
Fearless

Gauss Flayer
S4, AP4, Rapid Fire 24" range
Rending

I've thought for awhile that animated robots shouldn't have the same combat abilities as Space Marines Hurr! And, this would be accompanied by a point decrease. I get the basic reasoning behind the lack of a save, but I think that goes against too much of the general 40k gameplay to have no save. 4+ is nice, puts them between MEQs and GEQs. Cover is still important since there are a lot of AP4 weapons out there, but they're still not completely vulnerable. I don't like giving them a 24" assault weapon, that is way too powerful. Lets them just back-up away from assault elements while continuing to put out a lot of firepower.

I like this a lot. Maybe 2 wounds but even not that is a good stat line for robots. I think that maybe relentless on everything necron would help with shooting really. It allows a 1 shot for a 30" range.

Well there are three different stats that combine to represent a models resiliance to damage.

Toughness
Wounds
Save

So what would make the most sense for a 100% non-organic robot zombie that is missing his soul?


Toughness; This should be high, as it (to me) represents the majority of their survivability.

Wounds; I could see going up to two, but really? They are not gigantic by any stretch of the imagination, one wound would be a better representation.

Save; This one is the kicker, do necrons technically even have armor? is that 'armor' actually 'armor' or would it be toughness? I'd say their skin IS armor and it would be best represented with a 4+ inherent save.

How about: WS3 BS4 S5 T5 I2 W1 LD10 4+ save + WBB


What about a Gauss effect on vehicles that 'stacks'? Like the Talos Claws in CC. For every roll of a 6 in addition to the first 6 add +1 to the damage result or the armor penetration roll. *Shrug*

Whoops, double-tap.

I'd like Necrons with this sort of statline:

Necron WS3 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld10 Sv3+/4++ FNP Fearless

T4 W1 Sv3+/4++ is like a Rubric Marine, and FNP is for the technology bump.

WS3 I2 is because they're not super-quick for HtH work.


Gun-wise, I'd suggest:

Gauss Flayer R24" S5 AP4 Rapid-Fire Rending

Rapid-Fire 24" is standard for MEQ-types.

S5 AP4 is good enough against any non-MEQ, and Rending helps against big stuff that they don't have Specials or Heavies for.

I'd argue for the save as opposed to the toughness. They have an armored outer shell encasing all their "workings". Once you were past the armor, everything gets squishy. It just so happens they have built in repair features that can repair some pretty horrific damage.

They should have armour saves.

And they should be WS3 if not 2. It's silly that they're as good as Marines in skill with weapons in HTH.

WS3 BS4 S4 T4 (or 5) W1 I2 A1 Sv3+/4+(FNP)
Gauss Flayer
R30 S4 AP4 Assault 2/Rending

How is 24" assault weapons (which the Immortals have already) OP? With 90% of most armies lurching forward to get into assault (the 10% being Tau) I think it's a good idea.

At least the phalanx could move and still cover itself instead of having to sacrifice shooting to moving.

S4, AP4, Assault 1 - Gauss: auto wound on 6, auto glance on 6 unless can pen.

I agree with HB about the WS. There's only 3 units that use/need WS which are Pariah's, Wraiths, and flayed ones.

I'm good with the army getting FNP if we get rid of the Phase out. Of course, I would deck my warriors out with "individual equipment" and lose a model a turn . . .

And we talked through most of this HERE

Uriels_Flame wrote:I'm good with the army getting FNP if we get rid of the Phase out.

Where did we agree to dump Phase Out?

That's more characteristic of Necrons than WBB or anything else!

I like the main idea Feel no pain, fearless, etc... but AP 1! I could see AP 3... it would be neat to have an army of that, but I don't think terminators should be dropping to them

I also agree with an above poster about a special rule to give them a glancing possibility on vehicles, rather than the AP 1 itself.

Great idea

Seems awfully good....too much so.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Uriels_Flame wrote:I'm good with the army getting FNP if we get rid of the Phase out.

Where did we agree to dump Phase Out?

That's more characteristic of Necrons than WBB or anything else!

If they got rid of WBB, phase out should go too. How else are they going to sell Pariah models unless they can figure out a way to get people to buy them.

Or make them Necrons . . . .

Or just make them better.

They need to stay WS4. They aren't Tau who purposefully shun HtH. They are robots who have been anhilating races since the creation of the universe. I imagine they've figured out how to throw a punch. If you want to limit the HtH abilities of their non HtH troops, keep them at I2. It bones them well enough already.

Uriels_Flame wrote:How is 24" assault weapons (which the Immortals have already) OP?

But Immortals are an elite unit. Giving a line unit 24" assault weapons seems OTT to me. I'd rather seem Necrons have S&P and a rapid fire (or even heavy) weapon instead. While a lot of armies can close ground quicker than in fourth edition, letting a unit dance around at 18 to 24 inch range while firing at maximum efficiency is pretty powerful.

I'd be ok with Necrons losing Phase Out. Whether it's characterful or not, I don't think it adds a lot of fun to the game. It's an odd rule that is supposed to balance out Monoliths and Pariahs and C'tan. Balance them by getting the rules and point values right. Plus, with Phase Out, it makes the army less competive at lower point limits, since you have to take a bunch of Necrons, it doesn't leave much room for 'other stuff'.

dietrich wrote:Giving a line unit 24" assault weapons seems OTT to me. I'd rather seem Necrons have S&P and a rapid fire (or even heavy) weapon instead. While a lot of armies can close ground quicker than in fourth edition, letting a unit dance around at 18 to 24 inch range while firing at maximum efficiency is pretty powerful.

Not really. Warriors get massacred in CC; giving them Assault 1 Flayers means they can stay out of hittin' range of most units, and considering the relatively high cost of Warriors you aren't exactly getting a withering fusillade of fire, either.

Relentless might be better, an entire army with Difficult Terrain checks slows down very quickly (even more then they already do not haveing transports)

Relentless with a Rifle allows them to move and engage at 24", without being at full power untill 12" I wouldn't bring the weapons AP under 5 standard, personaly. To many armies base costs are based on AP5 rifles.

If we want to give out standerdized stat-lines, then I think they should stay WS4,BS4 - they troops as good as the eldar for longer then most space marines have been alive. If we perfer to go specialist, then Give the CC troops WS5BS3, and the Ranged guys WS3BS4.

I still think i'd like to see Necron get a 'get out of combat free' card. I'd make up for warriros getting otherwise massacured.

And now for something compleatly different:
WS3, BS5, S4, T2, W1, I2, A1, SV 2+/5++, WBB
Weapon: Str 1, AP 5, 24" Rapid Fire, Gauss, Poison (4+)

Change WBB to FNP that works against str double Toughness
The poison is to repersent the target being pulled apart.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:Change WBB to FNP that works against str double Toughness

Why not change it to just FNP and leave them T4? Having exceptions to exceptions that don't need to be there is bad rules writing. FNP is already an exception with built in exceptions:

1. May only take one save type.
2. Except FNP.
2a. Except when the attack is X2S or AP1, AP2, or is a Power Weapon.

And you want to add:

2b. Except when the model is a Necron.

That's an exception to an exception to an exception to a rule. No, evil, wrong, bad.

I agree.

Keep it simple. They are the in-between for MEQ and non-MEQ.

They already have no upgrades, their Armory is a joke, and suffer from high point mandatory troops.

S&P does nothing for keeping them out of CC, unless you give them more troops choices for tarpits - which I give you scarabs and flayed ones for troops.

Maybe the ability to use flayed ones like Goblin Fanatics - popping out right before the unit gets assaulted, thereby allowing the "warriors" to leave CC while the flayed ones stay?

Your likely right, but given the title of the thread I was trying to come up with things ouside of the traditional style stat lines. As was said earlier, Other then special rules, there are only 3 things that modify how hard it is to kill things.

Toughness, Wounds and Save.

In almost everything up to this point (and definoutly basic troops), we've seen resiliance repersented by slight increases toughness and sugnifigant increases in Saves, taken togeather.

The first guys sugestion, while perhaps a bit off, was proposing making necron tough by increasing their wounds, rather then their save.

My first stat sugestion was based on making Toughness their primary defense, that their body was resiliant, not armored. (and yes, nids do have armor in the form of exoskelitons)

The second statline (listed above) is based on increasing their save with low toughness. Repersenting that they eather shrug off a weapon, or it destroys them.

Necrons should have WBB it's what makes them necrons for gods sake. fnp is too easily over run and used by most armies now.

I think that necrons in general should have at least T5 prefferably 6 for Warriors, lords, elite units.

I would also lower the non close combat units to WS3 and BS5.
close combat units would have WS5 and BS3.

I'd make scarabs a necron unit as well as place it in the troop choices.

I like the idea of my warriors having assault weapons.

By the way all guass weapons count as being rending and having a glancing blow on a 6 against vehicles already.

As for saves make it 4++

Stucer wrote:Necrons should have WBB it's what makes them necrons for gods sake. fnp is too easily over run and used by most armies now.

It's also easier, a lot less clunky and it's really not easily overrun, because most weapons firing AP 1 or 2 at you are causing ID anyway.

Exept for it basically deafeat the pupose of a Necron unit and necrons as a whole lose their identity towards being a unique army.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:My first stat sugestion was based on making Toughness their primary defense, that their body was resiliant, not armored. (and yes, nids do have armor in the form of exoskelitons)

Their exoskeletons are part of their body though; that's no different from the necrons having a metal carapace that's part of their body. Or wraithguard getting an armor save from the wraithbone shell their outside is made from.

Stucer wrote:Exept for it basically deafeat the pupose of a Necron unit and necrons as a whole lose their identity towards being a unique army.

If WBB and other high-complexity/low-payoff rules are what it means to be "Necrons", I'd rather see Necrons Squatted.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Mars.Techpriest wrote:My first stat sugestion was based on making Toughness their primary defense, that their body was resiliant, not armored. (and yes, nids do have armor in the form of exoskelitons)

Their exoskeletons are part of their body though; that's no different from the necrons having a metal carapace that's part of their body. Or wraithguard getting an armor save from the wraithbone shell their outside is made from.

True, but that wouldn't be radically different now would it?

WBB, FNP, A rose by another name. Almost statisticly identical, and much easier to use.

I think that necrons in general should have at least T5 prefferably 6 for Warriors, lords, elite units.

I like the idea of my warriors having assault weapons.

By the way all guass weapons count as being rending and having a glancing blow on a 6 against vehicles already.

This could work if Necron Warriors were 45-40pts each, maybe. Guass weapons aren't rending, they only auto-wound on a 6, the don't ignore armor. I don't agree with Necron Warriors haveing assault weapons, mobility and Necron Troops just don't seem to go togeather to me. I think rapid fire works just fine for them.

WBB, FNP, A rose by another name. Almost statisticly identical, and much easier to use.

IMHO there is actually quite a drastic difference, especially with CC resolution in 5th.

WBB currently punishes 'Crons in CC. Sure, they might get 50% of downed necrons back next turn, but those down 'crons are dragging that combat resolution into the point of no return. Chances stand your 'crons will be wiped and you will be LUCKY to have another nit within 6" for the 'crons downed in CC to be able to WBB.

I don't want FNP for 'Crons, they need something unique. I'm okay with WBB as it is now. For people outside of the 'cron loop, it takes more time and seems encumbering, but once you know when to check what, it's quite viable.


What 'crons need is Troops that do their job. Warriors are the suck right now. Too many Fast, Hard hitting CC units that will shrug off the 1-2 turns of fire that you focus measly Gauss fire at, then they will charge in a rape anything other than C'tans. Crons need stubborn, fearless, or something else that makes it actually viable to use your troops for anything other than phase out tally and late game objective humping.

WBB leads to a lot of weard interactions with everyone elses (and even some of their own) special rules. How ever the mechanic changes, I think it really should be something that is far better intigrated in the rule system. Be that FNP for anything else within normal turn order that doesn't reqire sorta-there models.

Ah yes, Stubbern and Fearless, because nobody in 40K want's to deal with Morale. I think the Necron need a way out of combat more then they need a way to stay in it. If they don't brake, it just means those hard hitting CC units take an extra Assault phase to kill you, then you won't even have a shooting round before they assault the next group. I'm not sure how that makes them any more viable against powerful assault squads.

maybe a WBB works on a 5+ to counteract the lack of save, making them more zombie like. They're supposed to be tough and relentless, not space-marine like. if anything make the save on a 5+, if not 6+. it'll make them like zombies with more reslilance.

I agree with giving them something to counteract the lack of anti-armor, but giving your grunts AP1 weapons seems really extreme. maybe just the immortal gauss weapons?

If you do give them all AP1s, lower their WS, or give them slow and purposeful to all shooty necrons infantry, and lower their range a bit.

H.B.M.C. wrote:They should have armour saves.

And they should be WS3 if not 2. It's silly that they're as good as Marines in skill with weapons in HTH.

WS3 BS4 S4 T4 (or 5) W1 I2 A1 Sv3+/4+(FNP)
Gauss Flayer
R30 S4 AP4 Assault 2/Rending

An assault 2 gun with a 30 inch range? That seems far to good. Especially with the BS4. I'm all for not having to sacrifice shooting for mobility. It'd be nice if bolters were assault weapons. But I don't think giving a really good gun to an army of really tough guys is a good idea. They'll already be hard to kill with a 3+/4++ FNP. Add it a rending gun and what are you supposed to do against these guys?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarge wrote:They need to stay WS4. They aren't Tau who purposefully shun HtH. They are robots who have been anhilating races since the creation of the universe. I imagine they've figured out how to throw a punch. If you want to limit the HtH abilities of their non HtH troops, keep them at I2. It bones them well enough already.

Even at WS3 they hit most things on a 4. I'd rather see WS play a bigger part in CC. Then we could really differentiate the levels of CC badassery.

I agree on WS2 or 3.

4 is too high. For one thing, they're slow as hell. For another, they really have no reason to have close combat skills, unless we're talking about the actual close combat units.

WS4 is orks and space marines, both races that train extensively for close combat. The IG and Sisters train for close quarters fighting some, but they're still WS3. And they're not as slow as the necrons.

(Although, as Noisy_Marine said, there's not that much of a difference in practice.)

Orkeosaurus wrote:I agree on WS2 or 3.

4 is too high. For one thing, they're slow as hell. For another, they really have no reason to have close combat skills, unless we're talking about the actual close combat units.

WS4 is orks and space marines, both races that train extensively for close combat. The IG and Sisters train for close quarters fighting some, but they're still WS3. And they're not as slow as the necrons.

(Although, as Noisy_Marine said, there's not that much of a difference in practice.)

maybe lower their WS and raise they're strength? they're supposed to be zombie-like, so they're less likely to hit, but it should be really dangerous when they do, besides, if we're giving them assault guns, aren't we setting them up to be steamrollers in a way?

S4 is already extremely strong though. It's as strong as a space marine with a chainsword, I don't know that a necron is any stronger than a space marine. (Plus, S4 works better if you factor in close-range gauss firing.)

Also, I don't know that I'd give warriors assault guns myself. Maybe SaP instead. Hmm.

SaP on the only troop choice for an army with no dedicated transports?

Doesn't seem right.

Well, I'd only do that in conjunction with increased teleportation ability.

I think it's been suggested a few times that the necrons gain a lesser form of monolith that could act as a sort of transport.

Yeah but now you're going down a single lane road.

If Necrons are SaP, but you give them mini-liths, or whatever to compensate for that. Everyone will end up needing run those compensation units, the diversity in army list composition would evaporate. And let's face it, 'Crons are already hurting in list flexability.

What about Relentless instead? A teleport akin to Apoc's Strategic Redeployment could work to, as it forces the unit to stop 12" away from an opponent and not fire that round. Perhaps 1/turn as long as the lords alive, or each unit can do it once, etc.

The difficulty is figureing out how to give an army that shouldn't be moble the mobility to compeate.

i think teleportation would nail that problem to an extent.

What you could do is to simply give them a short range Deep Strike.

Teleporters - Instead of Moving, a unit of Necrons may use their Teleporters. Place one model up to 12" away from its current position and Deep Strike the remainder of the unit, following all of the rules for Deep Striking, if a Mishap occurs, the Opponent may re-roll the Mishap result.

This allows for considerably greater mobility, as they can teleport 12+" and the Run d6".

Or 12" and still fire. Makes them almost like Jump troops.

If every unit can do that every turn, I fear it makes them actualy to moble.

(whoever said it) might have actualy had something with the all DS in first turn idea. Large starting mobility, and repersents they're appearing around you/rising from the sand, etc. Also keeps the slow empecable advance fealing later on.

I don't think SaP is that much of a handicap, honestly.

You're averaging a little less than 4.5" a turn instead of 6". A little less than 8" instead of 9.5" if you're running. That's assuming that the model without SaP is outside of difficult terrain as well.

Now take into account that rapid fire weapons can't fire on the move, and the necrons have more mobility with a constant level of firepower.

It's roughly comparable, but it's not quite the same as Jump Infantry:
- cannot Assault
- less reliable due to Mishaps!
- if shooting, being clumped up increases vulnerability to counter-fire

But it would improve mobility somewhat

And make them even more vulnerable to Blast weapons, particularly battle cannons.

The idea of them teleporting every turn seems a little to much to me, really.

And that is what Tactics are all about. It's not good to Teleport all the time, because there are some downsides like Templates and such.

Yeah, I guess I can see that. Maybe open it up then a little bit, like 18"

I think that would kinda change the image of them, though. they're supposed to be the sort of slow, devastating advance sort of people. maybe only give that to their CC units? like the pariahs and wraiths? also, only flayed ones should be able to deep strike IMO, kind of giving them an 'appear anywhere, anytime' feel.

making them arrive as if they're in deep strike would be cool, no closer than 24"? 12"? 18"? from the nearest squad to your table edge on the first turn, no rolls required to see if they CAN deep strike. and no mishaps. if some guy lost all of his units in the first turn because all of them had mishaps, that would just suck, and no one would ever play the 'crons again.

But this goes with my theory that they should be low-initiative, low skill, but high damage and toughness without AS's or at least a small one, making them a close up, slow but dangerous advance.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:Yeah, I guess I can see that. Maybe open it up then a little bit, like 18"

I suggested 12" because it is roughly comparable to Jump Infantry.

At 18", it's much more mobile, like Jetbikes. That's probably too much, IMO.
____

crazypsyko666 wrote:they're supposed to be the sort of slow, devastating advance sort of people. maybe only give that to their CC units? like the pariahs and wraiths? also, only flayed ones should be able to deep strike IMO, kind of giving them an 'appear anywhere, anytime' feel.

making them arrive as if they're in deep strike ... and no mishaps.

they should be low-initiative, low skill, but high damage and toughness without AS's or at least a small one, making them a close up, slow but dangerous advance.

If it's too much, you could attach the Teleport effect to HQ and support units. Of course, if GW could give a better concept, then this won't be as much of an issue.

Kind of like Drop Pods?

I'd be OK with that. I definitely don't like WS4. But I'm OK with them having a good save.

Actually, giving all necron a drop-pod style deep strike would be cool.

Could also tie it in to We'll be back

"We'll be back" - At the beginning of any movment phase, you may remove a necron unit from the board and place it in reserve.

"We're back" - Any necron unit put in reserve this way may teleport when it arives according to the 'from the sands' rule.

As for the save, I still think it would be nice if they were something other then MEQ

i like having the dead guys come back drop-pod style without the drop pods. this is just imo, but having them come back deep strike style makes them more "scattered amongst the sand" or whatever. but the idea of having them come back altogether is a good idea. i think phaseout should be reduced some.

maybe add teleportation to an elites/fast attack/HQ for additional points, like an armory upgrade.

maybe instead of having the necrons in a monolith arrive like they were in a transport, letting them have the option of arriving, drop pod style into the middle of something, making it a relay point of sorts.

WS:3 sounds good to me. also I:3, and S:5, and every hit counts as a glancing hit, if not penetrating already, including CC. something's gotta make up for the lack of tank, other than a god.

I think 4+ or even 5+ to glance would be fine. Don't forget, you can still glance a vehicle to death. 6 Imobalized/Weapon Destroyed will take out a landraider. I can see Strength 5, I'm not sure about I3, They are slow machines after all. Terminator style I get hit, I get hit, I punch you and you fly across the room.

I'd personaly just make it that the necron play can count the portal as part of his board edge, & any necon ariving from reserve can walk on from the portal rather then 'rising from the sands'. Each monolith could also modify this by allowing them to come in on that turns reserve rolls, or maybe even auto-arive

Give heavy destroyers some kind of Super-Guass 2-4 glance, 5-6 penetrate cannon, and the Monolith some form of Vanquasher-stat partical wip & there's be enough anti-tank in the army I think.

for the monolith, that makes sense. make it a moving fortress of sorts. sort of like a spawn point if you play first person shooters, but they NEED to do something with them to make them special, or different.

also, this may be ridiculous, give all non CC necrons I:1. to counteract this, give CC necrons some first strike rule, so they ALWAYS attack first when they charge into assault.

I'm OK with S5 T4 - I don't think 40k uses this for anything else right now, so it'd be a nice differentiator.

Why would necrons always strike first in assault?

Not even eldar have that rule, it'd be silly. And I1 is barely any different from I2 anyway.

I1 is simul with PFs

And slower the Tau! My guys would hit something first.

I5 for some of the assault troops would be more reasonable.

it's supposed to make them represent being slower, but harder hitting, and the first strike thing would be to balance that out. they'd have to seriously thin the enemy out in CC first attack or they'd be screwed. this is for warriors, btw. it was a weird idea, just wanted to know what you guys thought about it. it's supposed to be kinda like a tank character from an mmo. slow, but hard hitting and can soak up damage. if they don't get the first strike thing, they could just get smashed outright.

I do want them to have a low I, but it was just an idea.

If he's a MMO Tank, then he can sit there and take it at I2 or I1.

I actualy like the idea of Warriors in CC being 'beat on them quickly or were're screwed!' It fits their fluff to me. I1 Rending, would make everyone pause, but swift assaults could still take them out.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:I actualy like the idea of Warriors in CC being 'beat on them quickly or were're screwed!' It fits their fluff to me. I1 Rending, would make everyone pause, but swift assaults could still take them out.

I was kinda going for that version of a tank. slow but hard hitting and no use if badly outnumbered. and come to think of it, they could have that and a lower str than i was originally thinking. WS:3 BS:3 S:4 W:2 I:2 A:1 T5/6 SV:-/6+ rending. gauss blaster: 18" S:5 AP:4 assault 2, rending, phase out in 20% casualties, WBB on a 5+ roll, fearless (because it FITS, not because i don't want to deal with morale checks).

Maybe a teleport out of CC ability? something like, in CC, if the squad has sustained 25% casualties, you can roll a dice to do a mini-phaseout 18" away from the squad previously in CC with on a roll of D6 5+, giving them a 1/3 chance of bailing out of a bad situation, but if they do that they give up the chance of a WBB that turn.

Considering this, the first strike concept is a bad one, they already get the extra attack for charging in, and then they can teleport out of CC anyways.

I still don't like necron being cover-huggers, which is what Sv -/6+ causes. I'd like to see Relentless & Rapid fire for their weapon, rather then Assault 2, personaly. I also think Str 5 ap 4 is a little exessive. I'm a fan of 5+ poisoned & 5+ Glance on 'bolter', and than rending in CC. Plus that would allow them and Tau to continue haveing unique weapons.

The 'Well Be Back' ablity to pull a squad off the table alrady gives them a way to leave combat if it last more then one round, I don't think they need another one.

makes sense. you could just be a dick and never let them have cover saves. XD

An Wraithguard costs 35 points, has an AP2 weapon that is half your recommended range and has a special rule that is slightly better than rending, and goes to sleep mid-battle 1/6 of the time unless they are babysat, and only has 1 wound and a save that can be denied by AP3, rather than AP2 or 1 like FNP.

How many points would this new Necron cost? 50?

what would you propose altogether?

Necron Warrior (~20pts)

WS 3, BS 4, S4, T5, W1, I1, A1, LD 8, SV-
Special Rules: FNP, May not take cover saves, Relentless, Rending
Gauss Rifle: Str 3, AP 5, 24" Rapid Fire, Poison (5+), Guass (Glance on 5+)

WBB: At the begining of the movement phase (after reserves)you may remove any unit on the board and place it in reserves.

Errorless Deep Strike.

for WBB, include some sort of roll into that, other than that, looks good. so what to do with monoliths?

all reserve units can be placed in the monolith? 1 deep strike per turn, endless capacity? i was also thinking no exit points, and just have them rely on the deep striking. this wouldn't ruin having more than one, because you could only deep strike one per turn.


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in addition to that, make it so in games of 1500 points or more a minimum of one monolith is required if we go along with that idea.

I agree with the no-cover bit, which is why I proposed Sv3+/4++ base save.

now i see why it takes so long to make a codex...

I came up with an idea for Gauss vs Vehicles: On a result of 6 to penetrate armour, check wether it has any effect, then consult this chart:
If it fails to penetrate armour, it instead inflicts a single glanceing hit.
If it normally would roll a glanceing hit, the hit is penetratwing instead.
If the Hit is Penetrateing, it recieves +2 on the Damage table.

So, Warriors will no longer be single-shoting Landraiders, but the rest of the armies AT has improved. Any opinions?

Agreed with others, AP1 is not the way to go. I don't see them as a 'shooty army', more like a very durable army that you can't kill before they tear your guys to ribbons. Or at least that's what I think they should be. Here's my statline idea:

WS BS S T W I A LD

3 4 4 5 1 1 1 10

Stubborn, Feel No Pain

Gauss Rifle
Str AP
4 -

Have guass weapons get rending if they roll a 5 or 6 to wound. when hitting vehicles, hitting with a 6 always glances with a +1 to armor penetration rolls (so they can still kill vehicles on a glance; it would make them VERY viable to mech lists)

Initiative 1 is a bad idea. Even if they kill Powerfist Guy, he still gets to strike and Necrons + PFs = Sad Face.

Some things are going to have to make necrons have a sad face.

They're already immune to just about everything that's not a powerfist, with that statline.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:Necron Warrior (~20pts)

WS 3, BS 4, S4, T5, W1, I1, A1, LD 8, SV-
Special Rules: FNP, May not take cover saves, Relentless, Rending
Gauss Rifle: Str 3, AP 5, 24" Rapid Fire, Poison (5+), Guass (Glance on 5+)

WBB: At the begining of the movement phase (after reserves)you may remove any unit on the board and place it in reserves.

Errorless Deep Strike.

i'd make rending only apply to vehicles or some other handicap, never let them move beyond 4" in any movement opportunity, (standard movement, charging, etc.)


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Orkeosaurus wrote:Some things are going to have to make necrons have a sad face.

They're already immune to just about everything that's not a powerfist, with that statline.

i think long range-weaponry would give them a pretty sad face. they've only got an 18" range on them.

HI all.
If you want ed to make an army of machines radically different from armies of creatures.

Why not give them vehicles stats?

Type WS/BS/S/F/S/R/I/A
Walker. 4/4/4/8/7/7/1/1

Or is this too radical?

TTFN
Lanrak.

You may win the award for most radically different. That being said,

I'd give them a normalized armor value. The last thing you want to do is have to figure out what facing each necron is in.

I'd have them ignore shaken (they'll ignore stun becaue of squadren rules). that way they're eather fine, unarmed or dead.

AV 7 = ~6 lasgun hits to kill, ~4 Bolters, ~2 Krak missiles

AV 8 = ~12 lasgun hits, ~6 Bolters, ~2 Krak missiles

Or AV 9 and any pen/glance auto-destroys. Which would save on weaponless necron.

Destroyers at regular AV 10, Spyders at AV11-Living metal.

Stuff like that. It'd be quite interesting actualy. (though Tau would become really good at takein them out....)