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Post by: LunaHound
K guys , take this as a rant / complaint / which ever you want to call it . But surely we all have our share of agitation with hobby elitists just the same
way as there is TFG during the game plays.
What is warhammer ? its as much of a game as it is hobby. Some people do it for hobby 's sake , other do it for game sake . Then the most common type , they do both
to "get more bang out of their money"
Just like some people say "lawl its a game , relax" , there is also " lawl its just a game , please dont criticize how we paint or not paint our game pieces"
I know its abit "far fetched" to say warhammer is similar to chess . But you know what i mean , units represented by miniature / sculpts . They both function the same way,
just some are more detailed and elaborate than others. So if you want to be proud that you spent 100s of hours on your intricate army , you can be proud .
But please remember , there are the other half doesnt see it the same way you do , they are but game pieces.
So before you scoff at other's unpainted armies , please rethink the following:
1) They aren't in it for the hobby aspect.
2) They don't have much free time . Some only have time for 1 game per week , don't expect everyone to have same amount of time as you.
3) Some don't have the proper materials as you. (bad brush bad primer bad paints)
4) Some don't have the knowledge in techniques or the practice. Were you always as good as you are when you started? Nope ?
The list can go on , but basically we all must realize something. "we" are not "you" Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.
Do they look like you? are they your clones ? no they arnt . So why should you suddenly expect them to do what you think they should do?
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Post by: Kanluwen
If you're going to do a miniatures game, you can take the time to paint.
It's not like you're playing 24/7, and in the most part of gaming groups they'll require SOME form of painting at least.
There's really no excuse either, given the easily accessible nature of sites like here with painting tips, articles devoted to painting/modelling and so forth.
The only way you can get as good as someone who has been painting for years is to PAINT FOR YEARS.
And if you're going to invest the money in miniatures, take some time and invest in hobby materials.
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Post by: LunaHound
If you're going to do a miniatures game, you can take the time to paint.
Not true , from what fact do you base this on?
It's not like you're playing 24/7, and in the most part of gaming groups they'll require SOME form of painting at least.
Yes to satisfy the people that spends hours on their painted army. However they also realize not everyone has same amount of time
thus why they are lenient on it.
There's really no excuse either, given the easily accessible nature of sites like here with painting tips, articles devoted to painting/modelling and so forth.
The only way you can get as good as someone who has been painting for years is to PAINT FOR YEARS.
Yes, but which require time to search and browse . Assuming they even care about the hobby aspect.
And if you're going to invest the money in miniatures, take some time and invest in hobby materials.
Like i said in opening post , they could be investing the money in game pieces , as they dont necessarily see it as hobby miniatures.
Im not trying to be rude but , you are sort of pushing the standards from yourself onto what other should do too .
The way i see it , this elitism is similar to : Millionaires laughing at average people , then here comes billionair laughing at the millionaires.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Any hobby has a natural set of "rules" that come with it.
You don't expect someone who plays paintball regularly to not do the research and get a decent gun, or someone whose hobby is working on cars to not do any form of research.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Kanluwen wrote:If you're going to do a miniatures game, you can take the time to paint.
It's not like you're playing 24/7, and in the most part of gaming groups they'll require SOME form of painting at least.
There's really no excuse either, given the easily accessible nature of sites like here with painting tips, articles devoted to painting/modelling and so forth.
The only way you can get as good as someone who has been painting for years is to PAINT FOR YEARS.
And if you're going to invest the money in miniatures, take some time and invest in hobby materials.
I am beginning feel this same way. At first I was not all that interested in painting, more into sculpting, but I took some of my spare time and messed around for a bit. I was surprised how fast I could learn when I tried.
Now on the other side of this, being utterly snobbish and simply critisizing someones army without inquiring as to why they have not painted it is just immature; anyone like this should watch yourself being high and mighty like this, it is a great way to get knocked the @%# out. Not in the store perhaps, but what when you see that "noob" down-town and geuss what he has had a few too many drinks. DING DING! awww, K.O. in the first 5 seconds!!! Big-nerd 1 Little-nerd 0.
If you actually cannot take the time to paint your army over the years that you own it, you are pretty much required to state why; and if you need help ASK FOR IT. If no one wants to help you, your in the wrong spot or your not being naggy enough (  ). I feel it is the responsibility of those who CAN paint insanely well, to teach people to do so as well. If you are so petty that you would force someone to learn themselves to prove a point... well... you need to say why or you are worse than anyone with an unpainted army.
As to the elitism thing specifically, I can do anything you can do, and I can do it from the ground up. The fact that some people have economical means to attain anything they want for WH40k, AND have the time to paint it above table-top standard has no effect on my ability to do so over a longer amount of time. I will probably appreciate my effort more, and that means a whole lot to me.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Yeah, I mean I wasn't saying that you should tease someone mercilessly for not having something painted or refuse to include a brand new player.
But there comes a point where it's just like "Why haven't you at least TRIED?"
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Post by: LunaHound
Well , you 2 are looking at someone that never fiinshed painting a single army. The most i have ever painted (per army wise) is 1 squad of Necron Warriors .
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Kanluwen wrote:Yeah, I mean I wasn't saying that you should tease someone mercilessly for not having something painted or refuse to include a brand new player.
But there comes a point where it's just like "Why haven't you at least TRIED?"
Yep. Not all that much to ask when I just painted my first box set in under 5 hours total. I was even able to mess around with some ideas I had. I will repaint these models at some point, and treat them like test models, so I can see full squads with an army scheme, and I can get moderate practice in.
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Post by: Manchu
LunaHound wrote:Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.
QFT
If you learn nothing else on these boards, at least try and remember this.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
LunaHound wrote:
Well , you 2 are looking at someone that never fiinshed painting a single army. The most i have ever painted (per army wise) is 1 squad of Necron Warriors .
But you DID paint that squad. So try to take that idea into at least half the armies you assemble. If you have that much stuff, perhaps you should consider spending a bit of cash (if you have it that is) to get some quick painting done. It doesn't cost all that much, and I can think of a few people on this site that could do a great job for you. There are ways to make the exchange of money secure for both parties, paypal for instancce is pretty good. I think Pay-pal may have a "reserve" account for transactions like this. If someone does a bad job... well your Luna, they just won't .
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Post by: Kanluwen
LunaHound wrote:
Well , you 2 are looking at someone that never fiinshed painting a single army. The most i have ever painted (per army wise) is 1 squad of Necron Warriors .
Did you TRY?
Did you make attempts to learn how to better yourself from the experience?
Did you take what you learned from that onto your next project?
I mean, hell, I've not COMPLETELY finished any army I've worked on. They get to a certain point, and then I usually end up selling them off.
I'm working on changing though though, and that's all I ever ask from anyone else.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Manchu wrote:LunaHound wrote:Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.
QFT
If you learn nothing else on these boards, at least try and remember this.
This is what fences and spears are for. If people want to play that way, they also do not have to get mad at those who don't. Either side judging is unreasonable in their own way.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Luna, I can see where you're coming from but the painting/modelling is an important part of the hobby. This is why painted armies are insisted on at tournaments. If you aren't going to paint then why bother with models or scenery at all? There are plenty of good counter-based wargames for people that don't want to paint.
As for the time excuse, that's exactly what it is - an excuse. There are lots of ways to quickly produce good looking table-top standard miniatures. I don't especially enjoy painting and I don't have a lot of time. I work full time (with 2 hours of commuting), I have two young kids and I have several other hobbies competing for my time but I've built and painted 160 marines and 33 tanks in the last six months. It's been a hard slog and I'm thoroughly sick of painting marines but I did it. Painting a 2K points army in a year is not difficult.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Scott-S6 wrote:Luna, I can see where you're coming from but the painting/modelling is an important part of the hobby. This is why painted armies are insisted on at tournaments. If you aren't going to paint then why bother with models or scenery at all? There are plenty of good counter-based wargames for people that don't want to paint.
As for the time excuse, that's exactly what it is - an excuse. There are lots of ways to quickly produce good looking table-top standard miniatures. I don't especially enjoy painting and I don't have a lot of time. I work full time (with 2 hours of commuting), I have two young kids and I have several other hobbies competing for my time but I've built and painted 160 marines and 33 tanks in the last six months. It's been a hard slog and I'm thoroughly sick of painting marines but I did it. Painting a 2K points army in a year is not difficult.
Wow, that is impressive. Good job 
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Post by: LunaHound
Guys , while i do see what you are trying to say (from hobby aspect ) please dont forget what i keep saying.
There really are tons of people that just want to play , and can care less about painting ( and that should be fine , because thats what warhammer is )
I mean , i dont paint like golden demon or anything , but they look ok to play with .
I have alot of time ( look at my post eww.... )
I dont want to pay for painting service ( i even did commissions and people loved it )
But the way i see it , with the billionaire > millionaire > average people analogy is like:
Golden demon > table top quality painters > people that probably that just prime them .
So a golden demon painter can look at average people and question the same thing you are questioning the people that dont paint.
"why dont you get the best materials" , "why dont you buy / read all the best painting tips "
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Post by: Kanluwen
It just seems like you're looking for a way to justify not ever painting anything.
In which case I'd say, spend less time on dakka and more time getting cracking painting.
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Post by: LunaHound
Kanluwen wrote:It just seems like you're looking for a way to justify not ever painting anything.
In which case I'd say, spend less time on dakka and more time getting cracking painting.
No im not trying to justify myself thats just silly. Because im not exactly a gamer either ( i do hobby aspect WAY more than i play )
I do paint ! I just dont paint one army at a time ( i paint w/e i feel like )
So the thread is really not about me
You asked me , " did you try " well then i'll ask you this .
"Why do some people do table top quality on their average troops , while their unit leaders look way better?"
Its the same type of mentality here no? Just one step up.
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Post by: Golga
Nice on the marines and tanks in 6 months scott.
I have to agree with every one else though. if you do not have a painted army and you use the excuse that you do not have enough time. It is simply that an excuse.
To be honest id be amazed if you had a necron army and had only one squad painted. Ive seen terrible painters make a table top worthy necron army in a week with a little black primer and some boltgun metal. And this when they have very little time at that. Maybe half an hour, an hour a day.
Now granted I don't expect every one to bring a fully painted army that looks tournament worthy. Infact I use to be one of those that played with just built models. Not even primed.
But I do find the time to paint a little each and every week and im slowly working towards a very nice looking crimson fist army.
The fact that in all the years you have gamed luna and not even had a fully painted army. No matter how terribly done. To me shows that your one lazy individual.
And in case you cared to know im the type that only has time for 1 game a week.
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Post by: Wolfstan
I'm with you on this Luna. Although I really enjoy the collecting and painting aspect of the hobby and hate to field unpainted models myself, I have no problem with unpainted models. Now here's the part where I rant and upset people
As far as I'm concerned if you are a gamer who believes that your fellow gamers should paint their models or attempt to paint their models then you are wrong, end of. What right do you have to look down your nose at someone for not having painted models. Where is the committee that sets these so called standards for us mere mortals to follow? Wargaming is about the gaming, the hobby part came later, it's artificial, a concept banded about GW. Non- historical wargaming has taken years to emerge from the anal attitutes that traditional historical wargamers had, (not the right colour cuff strip on a 15mm model!! etc) and now gamers want to replace it with their own version of accepted standards. Get over yourselves or join a country / golf club where you can tut tut over failing standards.
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Post by: Golga
Wolfstan wrote:I'm with you on this Luna. Although I really enjoy the collecting and painting aspect of the hobby and hate to field unpainted models myself, I have no problem with unpainted models. Now here's the part where I rant and upset people
As far as I'm concerned if you are a gamer who believes that your fellow gamers should paint their models or attempt to paint their models then you are wrong, end of. What right do you have to look down your nose at someone for not having painted models. Where is the committee that sets these so called standards for us mere mortals to follow? Wargaming is about the gaming, the hobby part came later, it's artificial, a concept banded about GW. Non- historical wargaming has taken years to emerge from the anal attitutes that traditional historical wargamers had, (not the right colour cuff strip on a 15mm model!! etc) and now gamers want to replace it with their own version of accepted standards. Get over yourselves or join a country / golf club where you can tut tut over failing standards.
I don't think many of us here say you must have a painted army in order to play. Were mostly just saying that if you have had an army for a year or 2 and have not even attempted to paint a model. maybe you should just try to do a little something with them.
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Post by: Kanluwen
LunaHound wrote:Kanluwen wrote:It just seems like you're looking for a way to justify not ever painting anything.
In which case I'd say, spend less time on dakka and more time getting cracking painting.
No im not trying to justify myself thats just silly. Because im not exactly a gamer either ( i do hobby aspect WAY more than i play )
I do paint ! I just dont paint one army at a time ( i paint w/e i feel like )
So the thread is really not about me
You asked me , " did you try " well then i'll ask you this .
"Why do some people do table top quality on their average troops , while their unit leaders look way better?"
Its the same type of mentality here no? Just one step up.
Then maybe if you feel that you want to focus on gaming, should settle on an army and a theme you want.
For example, I'm starting my Guard army up, for realsies, this summer for my 22nd birthday. I'm going fullout with the themes and models, and dipping a bit into my savings for a 2k Infantry force, themed around being engaged in continuous warfare against the Tau on the Eastern Fringe, in a swampy environment. Cadian Respirator kits from FW, the bulky plasma/melta gunners from 'em to show they don't have the 'sleeker', new patterned stuff that we've got on the Command Squad sprues, and quite a few Sentinels.
Hell, this army is even going to be the centerpiece built to go explicitly with the table I'm going to be starting on soon. Like I said...fullout.
Then after THAT is done, I'm starting my Wood Elf army, themed around a warband that settled in the Troll Moors and have been living there for centuries. The scouts, etc will all be cut down so that they appear to be wading through the swamp, waywatchers will have reeds sewn into their cloaks, etc.
But in response to your second question...
I think people do tabletop quality on their grunts because, let's face it, they're not on the table long enough to really be admired.
But your commander?
That's your idea of your force's hero. He's the shining pinnacle of your army, he/she is their Patton, their Eisenhower, their Kennedy.
You're going to take extra time to flesh him out.
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Post by: LunaHound
Kanluwen wrote:
I think people do tabletop quality on their grunts because, let's face it, they're not on the table long enough to really be admired.
But your commander?
That's your idea of your force's hero. He's the shining pinnacle of your army, he/she is their Patton, their Eisenhower, their Kennedy.
You're going to take extra time to flesh him out.
Yes thats exactly it though . Basically:
-You dont feel like spending time on something you dont feel like is worth it.
-To some people , thats how it is with painting.
Then for REALLY good painters 's point of view , the 2 are not so different. ( both lazy and not doing their best )
No you see thats not EVERYONE's idea of what the force's hero is. For hobbiest , its the chance for them to do their best.
For player, how they are painted does not effect the out come of game play. At most , WYSIWYG is taken account for .
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Post by: Kanluwen
Then I pity you for taking what is quite possibly, one of the most relaxing and enjoyable hobbies and turning it into a tabletop shouting match that you could get at home on Xbox Live with some drunk frat git.
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Post by: Golga
Question. Why did you start this thread. Im curious. Don't have to bother answering if you don't want to.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Wrexasaur wrote:
Wow, that is impressive. Good job
Cheers, just don't ask me to paint another red marine!
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Post by: LunaHound
Kanluwen wrote:Then I pity you for taking what is quite possibly, one of the most relaxing and enjoyable hobbies and turning it into a tabletop shouting match that you could get at home on Xbox Live with some drunk frat git.
Again -_- dont direct that towards me . Just because i address an issue , that doesnt mean its anything to do with me personally.
I-DO-PAINT. I only gamed for a year, thats a few years ago (at the gaming shop) Now at most , i play with my cousin when he feels like it.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Then why BRING the issue up?
I mean, there comes a point where it's just asking for attention Luna.
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Post by: Wolfstan
Golga wrote:Wolfstan wrote:I'm with you on this Luna. Although I really enjoy the collecting and painting aspect of the hobby and hate to field unpainted models myself, I have no problem with unpainted models. Now here's the part where I rant and upset people
As far as I'm concerned if you are a gamer who believes that your fellow gamers should paint their models or attempt to paint their models then you are wrong, end of. What right do you have to look down your nose at someone for not having painted models. Where is the committee that sets these so called standards for us mere mortals to follow? Wargaming is about the gaming, the hobby part came later, it's artificial, a concept banded about GW. Non- historical wargaming has taken years to emerge from the anal attitutes that traditional historical wargamers had, (not the right colour cuff strip on a 15mm model!! etc) and now gamers want to replace it with their own version of accepted standards. Get over yourselves or join a country / golf club where you can tut tut over failing standards.
I don't think many of us here say you must have a painted army in order to play. Were mostly just saying that if you have had an army for a year or 2 and have not even attempted to paint a model. maybe you should just try to do a little something with them.
Why? If you buy a chess set nobody expects you to paint up the pieces. What about casual gamers who liked the idea behind Space Crusade or Space Hulk, are they expected to paint their models at some point? So why do we expect someone who has built up a Warhammer / 40k army to do the same? They may just like the game and want to play it and are happy / not interested in painting them.
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Post by: Scott-S6
LunaHound wrote:
Golden demon > table top quality painters > people that probably that just prime them .
This just doesn't cut it. If you really don't want to paint then spray everything in base colour. Wash with a dark ink (or use a dipping product) and paint base brown/green/gray/whatever. You can paint a whole army in a weekend like that and it will look >9000x better than grey plastic or, even worse, black primer. If you're REALLY lazy, black ink over grey plastic looks better than bare or primed.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
If it isn't worth it to paint your army, you should play with people of a like mind. It just isn't fair to ruin (yes, ruin) someone "meditation time" with an unpainted army every time you play them. 2 colors and some wash will cut it no problem. Ask people in your store for help, and I am sure you can find it.
What I said wasn't fully directed at you Luna, I just meant to address the topic with my perspective.
I don't personally know that many good painters that are actually all that snobbish. If they rush you, tell them you are still learning and they should understand. If they don't poo poo to them, who cares that you can impress everyone, I can add details WITH MY MIND. Seriously though no one is asking you to go crazy with the painting, most don't have the time for that either way.
"Note"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOxt3cMTDZE
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Post by: LunaHound
Kanluwen wrote:Then why BRING the issue up?
I mean, there comes a point where it's just asking for attention Luna.
Excuse me? things happen in the world whether it happens to me or not.
Just because it doesnt happen to me, doesnt mean it doesnt happen to others.
And because it does, i care about it, and i want to see people's view on it.
What does this have to do with asking for attention? If i seek attention , you would already see me post "omg female gamer here"
not only do i never do that , i have people thinking im gay because i dont openly scream my gender to everyone to know.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Wolfstan wrote:Wargaming is about the gaming, the hobby part came later, it's artificial, a concept banded about GW.
Actually, you're incorrect. Painting miniature soldiers was around long before miniatures wargaming.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Is there some kind of anti-painting league I should know about?
I sincerely doubt there are people out there, or at least large numbers of them, who are feeling that they've been discriminated against because of the lack of paint on their models.
And I say this in the nicest way possible, but it seems quite often that you are only starting threads whenever you want some attention, and then play the empathizing with everyone in the whole wide world card whenever someone calls you on it.
If you're genuinely concerned about something like this or feel that it's hurt or wounded you in anyway, feel completely free to talk at me. But seriously, I'm not trying to be a bringdown here. Not every little bit and piece of your life needs to relate to dakka in some way or form.
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Post by: LunaHound
Scott-S6 wrote:Wolfstan wrote:Wargaming is about the gaming, the hobby part came later, it's artificial, a concept banded about GW.
Actually, you're incorrect. Painting miniature soldiers was around long before miniatures wargaming.
But they paint it for historical display purpose , not gaming purpose.
Thus incorrect again .
Kanluwen wrote:Is there some kind of anti-painting league I should know about?
I sincerely doubt there are people out there, or at least large numbers of them, who are feeling that they've been discriminated against because of the lack of paint on their models.
And I say this in the nicest way possible, but it seems quite often that you are only starting threads whenever you want some attention, and then play the empathizing with everyone in the whole wide world card whenever someone calls you on it.
If you're genuinely concerned about something like this or feel that it's hurt or wounded you in anyway, feel completely free to talk at me. But seriously, I'm not trying to be a bringdown here. Not every little bit and piece of your life needs to relate to dakka in some way or form.
What .... the .... ******* ?
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Post by: Wrexasaur
LunaHound wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Then why BRING the issue up?
I mean, there comes a point where it's just asking for attention Luna.
Excuse me? things happen in the world whether it happens to me or not.
Just because it doesnt happen to me, doesnt mean it doesnt happen to others.
And because it does, i care about it, and i want to see people's view on it.
What does this have to do with asking for attention? If i seek attention , you would already see me post "omg female gamer here"
not only do i never do that , i have people thinking im gay because i dont openly scream my gender to everyone to know.
"Note"
( )
The part about calling Luna gay is really immature. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kanluwen wrote:Is there some kind of anti-painting league I should know about?
I sincerely doubt there are people out there, or at least large numbers of them, who are feeling that they've been discriminated against because of the lack of paint on their models.
And I say this in the nicest way possible, but it seems quite often that you are only starting threads whenever you want some attention, and then play the empathizing with everyone in the whole wide world card whenever someone calls you on it.
If you're genuinely concerned about something like this or feel that it's hurt or wounded you in anyway, feel completely free to talk at me. But seriously, I'm not trying to be a bringdown here. Not every little bit and piece of your life needs to relate to dakka in some way or form.
What the #%o.O is right... why are you trying to mess the thread up? Discussions are what forums are for, if Luna really gets on your nerves use the blocking feature, problem solved. Now lets continue the discussion please.
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Post by: Wolfstan
Wrexasaur wrote:If it isn't worth it to paint your army, you should play with people of a like mind. It just isn't fair to ruin (yes, ruin) someone "meditation time" with an unpainted army every time you play them. 2 colors and some wash will cut it no problem. Ask people in your store for help, and I am sure you can find it.
What I said wasn't fully directed at you Luna, I just meant to address the topic with my perspective.
I don't personally know that many good painters that are actually all that snobbish. If they rush you, tell them you are still learning and they should understand. If they don't poo poo to them, who cares that you can impress everyone, I can add details WITH MY MIND. Seriously though no one is asking you to go crazy with the painting, most don't have the time for that either way.
"Note"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOxt3cMTDZE
Again why? It makes no sense. You'd prefer to play a person who has made the effort to stick 2 colours on their models, to someone who has an unpainted army but knows the rules of the game and for his force inside out? Why does this make them "lazy"?
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Wolfstan wrote:Wrexasaur wrote:If it isn't worth it to paint your army, you should play with people of a like mind. It just isn't fair to ruin (yes, ruin) someone "meditation time" with an unpainted army every time you play them. 2 colors and some wash will cut it no problem. Ask people in your store for help, and I am sure you can find it.
What I said wasn't fully directed at you Luna, I just meant to address the topic with my perspective.
I don't personally know that many good painters that are actually all that snobbish. If they rush you, tell them you are still learning and they should understand. If they don't poo poo to them, who cares that you can impress everyone, I can add details WITH MY MIND. Seriously though no one is asking you to go crazy with the painting, most don't have the time for that either way.
"Note"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOxt3cMTDZE
Again why? It makes no sense. You'd prefer to play a person who has made the effort to stick 2 colours on their models, to someone who has an unpainted army but knows the rules of the game and for his force inside out? Why does this make them "lazy"?
I am not exactly sure I understand what you mean. My preference of players is my decision. I will prefer to play tabletop models over any other type. 2 colors and wash IS tabletop, no one said anything about dipping or anything. If you paint your 2 colors messily and in a rush it will look pretty bad, but if you practice brush control and possibly a bit of drybrushing, you can make really nice armies w/o having to spend all your spare time on them.
If you don't want to play me because you can paint an amazing army, then who the heck cares either way?
...Who said anything about lazy? Yeah I am don't understand exactly what you meant by your statement.
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Post by: Golga
Wolfstan wrote:Golga wrote:Wolfstan wrote:I'm with you on this Luna. Although I really enjoy the collecting and painting aspect of the hobby and hate to field unpainted models myself, I have no problem with unpainted models. Now here's the part where I rant and upset people As far as I'm concerned if you are a gamer who believes that your fellow gamers should paint their models or attempt to paint their models then you are wrong, end of. What right do you have to look down your nose at someone for not having painted models. Where is the committee that sets these so called standards for us mere mortals to follow? Wargaming is about the gaming, the hobby part came later, it's artificial, a concept banded about GW. Non- historical wargaming has taken years to emerge from the anal attitutes that traditional historical wargamers had, (not the right colour cuff strip on a 15mm model!! etc) and now gamers want to replace it with their own version of accepted standards. Get over yourselves or join a country / golf club where you can tut tut over failing standards.
I don't think many of us here say you must have a painted army in order to play. Were mostly just saying that if you have had an army for a year or 2 and have not even attempted to paint a model. maybe you should just try to do a little something with them.
Why? If you buy a chess set nobody expects you to paint up the pieces. What about casual gamers who liked the idea behind Space Crusade or Space Hulk, are they expected to paint their models at some point? So why do we expect someone who has built up a Warhammer / 40k army to do the same? They may just like the game and want to play it and are happy / not interested in painting them.
Wow calm down there dude. What I was trying to say is that no one in this thread (well when I posted that anyways) Was attacking people for there lack of painting. We were all discussing why some one should or should not have a painted army and why some people would be miffed that they dont. And honestly that's a terrible example. If you spent as much money on a chess set as you do warhammer (and ive seen some chess sets that can go for over 2 grand) Why on earth would you paint it? Also with space hulk it was a small game. It was never really intended to have the models painted. If you did well fine on you. But with a real army. Well its just nice to see some one put a little work into it. Give those little plastic men a personal touch of your own regardless of how small or terrible it is. As I said above I use to be one of those people that played with unprimed models. But when i actually had a fully painted army. Well it made me like them just a bit more. Do I expect others to have the same feeling. No I dont. But I have to say I do like seeing it when its done. Automatically Appended Next Post: LunaHound wrote:Scott-S6 wrote:Wolfstan wrote:Wargaming is about the gaming, the hobby part came later, it's artificial, a concept banded about GW.
Actually, you're incorrect. Painting miniature soldiers was around long before miniatures wargaming.
But they paint it for historical display purpose , not gaming purpose. Thus incorrect again .
Wait how is he incorrect there? He stated that painting models was around long befor wargaming was. Which it was. Regardless if it was used for a war gaming purpose or not. Painting them was around long before war gaming. Gw simply took something that most people liked to do and gave it the war gaming aspect.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
I am going to take some time to post examples of what I would want to play against as a minimum of paint. Props to these painters.
I will say again that I don't have that much of a problem playing unpainted stuff, but I usually do so because someone has a new unit that they want to test. You build it prime it, and field it a few times, then you finish it within a month or two. You can add details throughout the models career. Think of it as a reward for the unit doing well.
This is a perfect example of a simple yet effective paintjob. Nothing fancy, but it really gives the model some life. I can't imagine this taking more than one hour to make. So do 2-3 of these per week, and maybe a vehicle on the side, you will only have to spend 2/3 of a full day over the course of the entire week.
You can add your details with spare time, I would personally play without the details, and no complaints about it. These are 3 colors I suppose, 4 if you want to be picky.
Nothing I play with has to look any nicer than this, these are very nice works. Simple too, I will see If I can find the thread where it was explained. Beautiful shade of yellow with very little effort, he even painted them on the sprues to keep things simple.
Yet again, simple yet very effective.
And again, very simple. With practice this is within pretty much everyone's reach.
Simple.
Good example of an HQ standard.
Another HQ.
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Post by: Golga
Wrexasaur wrote:I am going to take some time to post examples of what I would want to play against as a minimum of paint. I will say again that I don't have that much of a problem playing unpainted stuff, but I usually do so because someone has a new unit that they want to test. You build it prime it, and field it a few times, then you finish it within a month or two. You can add details throughout the models career. Think of it as a reward for the unit doing well.
Eh I occasionally use unprimed models when testing out units. Id much rather not have a half primed model when I figure I should change around a bit of wargear.
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Post by: Kanluwen
*shrug*
My comment was based on observation, nothing more.
If you're not looking for attention, than my apologies. I'm cranky and completely unable to sleep due to an inner ear infection.
But I don't get why you're starting a thread about painted armies, when you say you've never finished painting an army(including Necrons, which are arguably one of the easiest armies to batchpaint and look presentable) and then say that the thread has nothing to do with you other than "it goes on in the world"?
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Post by: LunaHound
Kanluwen wrote:*shrug*
My comment was based on observation, nothing more.
If you're not looking for attention, than my apologies. I'm cranky and completely unable to sleep due to an inner ear infection.
But I don't get why you're starting a thread about painted armies, when you say you've never finished painting an army(including Necrons, which are arguably one of the easiest armies to batchpaint and look presentable) and then say that the thread has nothing to do with you other than "it goes on in the world"?
Because:
- I know there are plenty of people in person that hates painting ( oh guess who commissions me to paint for them )
as well as people on dakka that dont particularly care for hobby aspect either ( which ever reason they have )
- While i dont have any army complete, that does not mean im a lazy painter . ( look in my gallery , while im not very good at it , you can atleast tell i put some effort into it )
Necron for example , just because the usual way people does it is easy and fast , that doesnt mean i paint them the same way . ( again , my necrons are not painted that way )
thus you cant really use one person's standard and try to apply it to others.
Lastly , i do ask alot of questions on Dakka . But instead of assuming im asking for attention , why not try to see it from my point of view?
I can ask a few people irl these "random" question that they think is silly . Or i can in "in theory" get hundreds of response from people everywhere on the net.
Its a good way to get variety of ideas in no?
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Post by: Kanluwen
If they hate painting, fine. Go for it, pay someone for a commission job.
I do not, for the life of me, understand why someone would get involved in an artistically driven hobby, and ignore the artistic part. I just can't understand it. I still have random models from when I first started that I'll go back and try to improve on. Heck, as I type this I have Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex sitting next to me with a file because he's going to be primed tomorrow for his part in my Guard army.
I didn't say you were a lazy or a terrible painter. I didn't mean to immediately imply that you're some kind of attention-seeking malcontent.
I meant that it's a weird topic to start, when you can guess at most of the responses.
You'll have the "don't want to spend gaming time painting" crowd, and the "at least try to learn how" crowd, along with the "don't care, never bothered" crowd or the "I won't play them unless they're tabletop standard" crowd.
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Post by: Mistress of minis
LunaHound wrote:Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.
So, arent you sort of judging the people that are painting elitists? Telling people that acting one way isnt righ/unreasonablet- is very much a double sided blade  Its all about an individuals perspective.
I think the simple nature of this being a competitive game/hobby will instill basic levels of elitism, regardless of whether its painting, playing or passing gas to incapacitate your opponent (you know who you are you nasty nurgle a$$!).
Any level of competition is like this, pro sports, week night bowling leagues, pee wee football. Its human nature really. People try to show others they can do something better, even if it seems ridiculous. Like curling....I mean...seriously...sliding rocks on ice....its in the olympics...
So, if Im across the table for some guy with an unpainted army, Im gonna razz him about being lazy. If I see someone with an army thats painted, and theyre at least trying, I'll give them painting tips, and maybe even sit down with them and help them paint some stuff.
If someone chooses not to paint, they have their reasons, and from that choice they gotta accept some people might give them some crap about it. If getting crap about unpainted minis bothers them too much, they can deal with it, paint their stuff, or go play d&d minis or clix so they can avoid painting
Ive helped alot of my freinds paint stuff. If you cant paint well, find someone that does and ask them for some help. This is a social hobby, and for the price of a burrito and some soda you might jsut find someone that will sit down and help cover up all that bare plastic- and everyone has fun doing it. I mean, look at the tutorials that are out there now- stuff that took me years to figure out on my own can now be seen on youtube and takes 10 minutes....that evens out the learning curve
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Post by: LunaHound
Mistress of minis wrote:LunaHound wrote:Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.
So, arent you sort of judging the people that are painting elitists? Telling people that acting one way isnt righ/unreasonablet- is very much a double sided blade Its all about an individuals perspective.
Oh yes , but there is one big difference.
I dont go around hurting good painter's feelings by saying things like " lol you spent 10 hour + on a mini " ( reverse situation for example )
Also i noticed something when i post on the net . Every time i question something , people automatically assume im against them.
Thats far from the truth because again , in warhammer i do the hobby way more than i game.
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Post by: Wolfstan
Wrexasaur, no pop at you intended, but your photos are just reinforcing a point that both me and Luna are trying to make.
As I understand it Luna was raising the point, without naming people (I don't know who I just joined in) who have made comments about painted models. I have to say that during my time on the board I have seen plenty of comments on non painted models and people getting worked up about them and playing against them. Again I think Luna is the same opinion as me that this should in no way matter when playing a game. Whether a gamer likes to field a painted army themselves, well that's their choice, but you shouldn't be judging your opponent because their force is unpainted.
To me Wrexasaur all you appear to be doing is saying is , "hey look how easy it is, this is what you can achieve in a few simple steps", which is still reinforcing the idea that painted models good, unpainted bad.
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Post by: Kanluwen
I haven't ever seen people say anything about unpainted models, other than commenting perhaps about heavy conversions that--frankly--if you're going to take the time to do, why not sit down and paint?
And you can't tell me who not to judge!
I'll judge you all!
Bwhahaha!
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Post by: LunaHound
Wolfstan wrote:Wrexasaur, no pop at you intended, but your photos are just reinforcing a point that both me and Luna are trying to make.
As I understand it Luna was raising the point, without naming people (I don't know who I just joined in) who have made comments about painted models. I have to say that during my time on the board I have seen plenty of comments on non painted models and people getting worked up about them and playing against them. Again I think Luna is the same opinion as me that this should in no way matter when playing a game. Whether a gamer likes to field a painted army themselves, well that's their choice, but you shouldn't be judging your opponent because their force is unpainted.
To me Wrexasaur all you appear to be doing is saying is , "hey look how easy it is, this is what you can achieve in a few simple steps", which is still reinforcing the idea that painted models good, unpainted bad.
Yes that pretty much sums it up , without me having to point finger at actual names.
Even if the paint can be hastily applied , you'll still get people that says
" wow thats awful , it pains me to see minis painted that way. I rather play a gray army than that "
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Wolfstan wrote:Wrexasaur, no pop at you intended, but your photos are just reinforcing a point that both me and Luna are trying to make.
As I understand it Luna was raising the point, without naming people (I don't know who I just joined in) who have made comments about painted models. I have to say that during my time on the board I have seen plenty of comments on non painted models and people getting worked up about them and playing against them. Again I think Luna is the same opinion as me that this should in no way matter when playing a game. Whether a gamer likes to field a painted army themselves, well that's their choice, but you shouldn't be judging your opponent because their force is unpainted.
To me Wrexasaur all you appear to be doing is saying is , "hey look how easy it is, this is what you can achieve in a few simple steps", which is still reinforcing the idea that painted models good, unpainted bad.
Dude... I said WITH PRACTICE. Has anyone ever done archery? It will really piss you off for the first few tries. As long as you are dedicated enough to paint a few hours a week, you WILL get better at it. Most of the stuff was very simple to do, but you need to know how to control a brush, and how to thin your paints in order to apply them in manageable layers (thin them down to a glaze for the extreme of this).
"Note"
Putting up examples was something that I thought would illustrate what I was writing about quite accurately. The fact that you can can use them as a way to reinforce a point is your prerogative.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LunaHound wrote:Wolfstan wrote:Wrexasaur, no pop at you intended, but your photos are just reinforcing a point that both me and Luna are trying to make.
As I understand it Luna was raising the point, without naming people (I don't know who I just joined in) who have made comments about painted models. I have to say that during my time on the board I have seen plenty of comments on non painted models and people getting worked up about them and playing against them. Again I think Luna is the same opinion as me that this should in no way matter when playing a game. Whether a gamer likes to field a painted army themselves, well that's their choice, but you shouldn't be judging your opponent because their force is unpainted.
To me Wrexasaur all you appear to be doing is saying is , "hey look how easy it is, this is what you can achieve in a few simple steps", which is still reinforcing the idea that painted models good, unpainted bad.
Yes that pretty much sums it up , without me having to point finger at actual names.
Even if the paint can be hastily applied , you'll still get people that says
" wow thats awful , it pains me to see minis painted that way. I rather play a gray army than that "
And??? WHO CARES? That person is a douche and should be kicked out of the store if they make a habit of it. PERIOD.
"Note"
How long did this take you Luna? I like it a lot.
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Post by: LunaHound
Also lets not forget to factor in the situation of reselling the army. Some people switch army often and have no loyalty to a certain army. And can always get more returning value by leaving it unpainted.
Why ? various reasons . Game play can be very different than imagined or planned.
Or you can get into an "omg so cool army!" but late. Then new edition comes out and completely changes everything.
Mix that with rule of " require 2 color atleast to play" then what happens?
You quickly throw 2 colors on the army / find out you dont like them / cannot sell them for 1/4 th of what you purchased them for.
Now what happens?
The destroyer? count assembling or not? because assembling part usually take longer than the actual painting process.
I dont spend more then a hour per model unless its monstrous creature or vehicles. ( thus infantry size i do 5 at a time )
And if its tanks or large monsters i dont spend more than 3 hours ( i sit there till its finished , and 3 hour is all i can last )
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Post by: Wrexasaur
LunaHound wrote:
Also lets not forget to factor in the situation of reselling the army. Some people switch army often and have no loyalty to a certain army. And can always get more returning value by leaving it unpainted.
This is true, and I know people who do this. You can get your AOBR box, assemble them, paint what you keep and sell the rest to people you play with. It is a pretty good way to advertise. My friend (who is a better painter than I with 2+ years more experience than me) said he would never buy a painted mini that wasn't pro level. With effort I can produce the same results as the average painter, and I can do it in my own style, with flare and what have you.
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Post by: Scott-S6
LunaHound wrote:Scott-S6 wrote:Wolfstan wrote:Wargaming is about the gaming, the hobby part came later, it's artificial, a concept banded about GW.
Actually, you're incorrect. Painting miniature soldiers was around long before miniatures wargaming.
But they paint it for historical display purpose , not gaming purpose. Thus incorrect again .
HG Wells was one of the first people to popularise recreational wargaming. It existed before that as a planning tool in the military. The playing pieces he used were painted soldier figures owned by his son. Luna - can you show an earlier example of recreational table-top wargaming in which un-painted figures were the playing pieces of choice? ETA or any example of table-top wargaming where un-painted miniatures are the preferred playing pieces? BTW if anyone's interested in how wargaming started I thoroughly recommend HG Well's Little Wars. It's quite suprising how many of the standard conventions of modern wargaming are present in his book.
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Post by: LunaHound
Scott-S6 wrote:
HG Wells was one of the first people to popularise recreational wargaming. It existed before that as a planning tool in the military.
The playing pieces he used were painted soldier figures owned by his son.
Luna - can you show an earlier example of recreational table-top wargaming in which un-painted figures were the playing pieces of choice.
Chess ?
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Post by: Ritz
A friend of mine had collected tau, and I play guard.
I was alreardy painting stuff for some years so all looked alright. My tau friend didn't paint anything more than 2 gundrones and a commander.
He was convinced he sucked at painting. But everytime it came to gaming, he won. No matter what scenario or what type of game.
He always won.
You don't have to be a good painter, but if you are, it helps.
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Post by: Kanluwen
I counter your chess with checkers.
Go play with your clix-Chess elsewhere!
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Post by: LunaHound
Ritz wrote:
You don't have to be a good painter, but if you are, it helps.
I really like that type of attitude in a gamming community.
Where the good paintings are a bonus , a treat. not a necessity .
and certainly not target of ridicules when a lesser paint job is presented.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
LunaHound wrote:Also lets not forget to factor in the situation of reselling the army. Some people switch army often and have no loyalty to a certain army. And can always get more returning value by leaving it unpainted.
Why ? various reasons . Game play can be very different than imagined or planned.
Or you can get into an "omg so cool army!" but late. Then new edition comes out and completely changes everything.
Mix that with rule of " require 2 color atleast to play" then what happens?
You quickly throw 2 colors on the army / find out you dont like them / cannot sell them for 1/4 th of what you purchased them for.
Now what happens?
The destroyer? count assembling or not? because assembling part usually take longer than the actual painting process.
I dont spend more then a hour per model unless its monstrous creature or vehicles. ( thus infantry size i do 5 at a time )
And if its tanks or large monsters i dont spend more than 3 hours ( i sit there till its finished , and 3 hour is all i can last )
The rest of this is entirely up to the people who are playing. Nuff' said.
In this group of "Super-gamers" I would be the guy fending all the new armies off with the occasional change in a solid list.
I would love to have this opportunity, but I am still pretty new to the hobby, and have not met more than 100 or so gamers personally. I think it would be fun to have a single perspective that can contribute to the understanding of how WH40k is evolving, because it is changing and will continue to do so despite it's rather complicated rules (comparatively). Automatically Appended Next Post: LunaHound wrote:Ritz wrote:
You don't have to be a good painter, but if you are, it helps.
I really like that type of attitude in a gamming community.
Where the good paintings are a bonus , a treat. not a necessity .
and certainly not target of ridicules when a lesser paint job is presented.
I like this when their are options to do your own thing, and the environment is diverse. Dakka Dakka has provided me with some of the best tips for minis I have found online, and I think it may continue to be like that as I learn to navigate forums with a bit more expertise.
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Post by: Wolfstan
Dude... I said WITH PRACTICE. Has anyone ever done archery? It will really piss you off for the first few tries. As long as you are dedicated enough to paint a few hours a week, you WILL get better at it. Most of the stuff was very simple to do, but you need to know how to control a brush, and how to thin your paints in order to apply them in manageable layers (thin them down to a glaze for the extreme of this).
But it's still the same message. Someone could well of bought their army with no intention of painting it, so why get nagged about painting, even if well intentioned? I should know I've got a mate who loves gaming, but not really into painting, so he usually buys 2nd hand models that are already painted. I've tried numerous ways to encourage him to paint, but to no avail, so he just gets his legged pulled over it. It's his choice at the end of the day and it's none of my business.
HG Wells was one of the first people to popularise recreational wargaming. It existed before that as a planning tool in the military.
The playing pieces he used were painted soldier figures owned by his son.
Luna - can you show an earlier example of recreational table-top wargaming in which un-painted figures were the playing pieces of choice? ETA or any example of table-top wargaming where un-painted miniatures are the preferred playing pieces?
The point I was trying to make and that Luna responded to was that GW appears to of influenced the whole concept of it being a "hobby". If you use the word Hobby, it's usually in the context of "what hobbies do you do". You'd answer something like, "walking golf, wargaming". GW would appear to want it to mean, in connection with wargaming, to mean, the collecting, painting and playing of their models". If you said you were a keen walker, you wouldn't expect people to force some type of standard on you for you to qualify as a walker. I don't think the Ramblers would refuse to walk with you if you had unpolished boots or the wrong type of jacket.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Wolfstan wrote:Dude... I said WITH PRACTICE. Has anyone ever done archery? It will really piss you off for the first few tries. As long as you are dedicated enough to paint a few hours a week, you WILL get better at it. Most of the stuff was very simple to do, but you need to know how to control a brush, and how to thin your paints in order to apply them in manageable layers (thin them down to a glaze for the extreme of this).
But it's still the same message. Someone could well of bought their army with no intention of painting it, so why get nagged about painting, even if well intentioned? I should know I've got a mate who loves gaming, but not really into painting, so he usually buys 2nd hand models that are already painted. I've tried numerous ways to encourage him to paint, but to no avail, so he just gets his legged pulled over it. It's his choice at the end of the day and it's none of my business.
This is true, but it is not unreasonable to attempt to do so in the first place. If two people are into entirely different aspects of the hobby that is their own business.
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Post by: Ketara
An excellent point Wolfstan.
I personally, am of the opinion that it's another persons army. If they want to paint it, they'll paint it. If they don't, they won't. It's not my care, business, interest or concern. The only time I see their models is when I'm playing against them, and since having three colours base in no way influences the outcome of the game, or affects the rules, it's beyond my scope of giving a damn.
It has nothing to do with me.
Some people will rant and rave about how the game is enhanced by extra aesthetic appeal, or how it's 'disrespectful' to your opponent/gw/people looking in on the game/wandering tramp to NOT have a well painted army, but to be perfectly frank, it's a game. You're there to play the game, not critique the other persons painting. If some guy came up to me and said, LOL UR A N00B FOR ONLY HAVING THREE COLURZ', and I would quite simply tell them it's none of their business. If they persist, I'll tell them to frag off. And if they persist after that, I might get nasty.
That's my two cents worth anyway.
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Post by: Scott-S6
LunaHound wrote:Scott-S6 wrote:
Luna - can you show an earlier example of recreational table-top wargaming in which un-painted figures were the playing pieces of choice.
Chess ?
Chess is not a miniatures wargame. Like Space Hulk, BattleTech, Squad Leader or every other board game the pieces could be replaced with two dimensional counters with no change to the game at all. Likewise the board could be a grid scratched in the dirt without having any affect on the game. The same is not true of a miniatures wargame where the intrinsic qualities of the playing pieces have a direct bearing on the playing of the game. This is what differentiates a miniatures wargame from a boardgame. That said, even chess has playing pieces which are needlessly elaborate. A disc with a letter printed on it would serve the task just as well. And yet for many hundreds of years people have purchased or made playing pieces which are much more elaborate because it adds to the experience. Chess can be played in the dirt with scraps of paper but is it not better to play with a nice set on a good board? Likewise, 40K can be played with unpainted models on a kitchen table with some cereal boxes for scenery but is far superior when played with painted armies on good terrain
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Post by: Ketara
I would replace 'chess' with 'shogi' then.
Shogi is an oriental game that supposedly evolved from battle commanders tactics, and it's the asian version of chess with many similar rules and pieces.
Also, replace the 40K bases with flat appropriately sizeddiscs with 'SPACE MARINE' painted on, and it's just a case of moving discs around and taking them off the board. There are no 'intrinsic qualities' to 40K pieces. Your golden demon painted model still has the same stat line as my painted white disc.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Ketara wrote:I would replace 'chess' with 'shogi' then.
Shogi is an oriental game that supposedly evolved from battle commanders tactics, and it's the asian version of chess with many similar rules and pieces.
Also, replace the 40K bases with flat appropriately sizeddiscs with 'SPACE MARINE' painted on, and it's just a case of moving discs around and taking them off the board. There are no 'intrinsic qualities' to 40K pieces. Your golden demon painted model still has the same stat line as my painted white disc.
True and funny
"Note"
I wonder if chess or checkers has ever been played with WH40k pieces.
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Post by: Manchu
LunaHound wrote:Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.
This thread has covered a lot of ground. Yes, Warhammer can be primarily about the hobby for some. That category further subdivides into modeling and painting. Others see it as primarily about gaming. Still others only get excited about either because they like the setting. (I do not share LunaHound's enthusiasm for AT-43, for example.) Fine. Everybody knows these things. Nothing that has been said has controverted the point I'm quoting for the second time above. It is not self-contradictory to say that a person should not assume others share her/his values. If you would be embarrassed to field an unpainted army, fine--don't field and unpainted army. That doesn't give you a right to be stuffy when someone else does field an unpainted army. It doesn't matter how much or little time it takes to put two colors on a model. This thread is really as simple as that. If you don't learn that the quoted point is a fact of life here, that's fine. You'll just have to learn it at some other point in life, maybe in a much harder way.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Ketara wrote:
Also, replace the 40K bases with flat appropriately sizeddiscs with 'SPACE MARINE' painted on, and it's just a case of moving discs around and taking them off the board. There are no 'intrinsic qualities' to 40K pieces. Your golden demon painted model still has the same stat line as my painted white disc.
I would disagree strongly.
How does TLOS work with flat counters? The impact and variety of scenery is also drasticaly altered.
If that's the sort of game you want to play then there are lots of counters-based wargames out there - squad leader is excellent.
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Post by: Noble713
I look at it like this: I don't really like to paint much at all. At the same time, I refuse to put figures on the table (unless I'm soloing in my own home) that are unpainted.
It means that I haven't played a game in almost five years.
I had a fully painted IG army at my disposal but completely lost interest in 40k so working on Fantasy stuff was the only option. For a number of lame excuses I didn't do it. That's the price of not working up the motivation to finish my Empire army. Gaming is a reward for the struggle of painting. No struggle, no reward.
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Post by: Ketara
It's quite simple. You have the height of a model painted on the other side, and flat white cardboard cutouts representing scenery, with their height marked on. Not only that, you can move the model tokens onto the scenery flats to represent being in cover.
Since GW was so expensive, this was actually how I started playing. I bought the codexes first, and then used cardboard discs to proxy. So I KNOW it's entirely possible.
You can go on about 'intrinsic qualities' and 'impact and variety of scenery' but at the end of the day, it's not actually crucial to the game. Anyone with an imagination can find a way to make the rules work with counters.
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Post by: Scott-S6
On the other hand, you're playing a game where the playing pieces are self-assembled and self-painted models. If you turn up for a game with un-painted and improper models then why wouldn't that go without comment? LunaHound wrote:Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.
All social groups are based on an assumption of shared values. What other basis should you use to judge someone? Not to mention, on what basis are you judging those who say they wouldn't play against an oponent with an un-painted army? Surely you would consider his/her viewpoint to be equally valid? ETA - Ketara. If you weren't in it for the models then I'm puzzled as to why you started playing 40K? I've played it for 20years now but I'll happily acknowledge that it's not the greatest rule system. There are other systems designed to be played without miniatures which are better and the rules are cheaper to buy as well. If not for the models I would never have bothered starting with 40K.
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Post by: Wolfstan
Ketara wrote:It's quite simple. You have the height of a model painted on the other side, and flat white cardboard cutouts representing scenery, with their height marked on. Not only that, you can move the model tokens onto the scenery flats to represent being in cover.
Since GW was so expensive, this was actually how I started playing. I bought the codexes first, and then used cardboard discs to proxy. So I KNOW it's entirely possible.
You can go on about 'intrinsic qualities' and 'impact and variety of scenery' but at the end of the day, it's not actually crucial to the game. Anyone with an imagination can find a way to make the rules work with counters.
End up doing a real version of Vassel. Give everything a numeric height value. Trooper value 1, hills, 1,2,3 etc. Light weight, portable and cheap  Automatically Appended Next Post: Scott-S6 wrote:On the other hand, you're playing a game where the playing pieces are self-assembled and self-painted models.
If you turn up for a game with un-painted and improper models then why wouldn't that go without comment?
LunaHound wrote:Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.
All social groups are based on an assumption of shared values. What other basis should you use to judge someone?
Not to mention, on what basis are you judging those who say they wouldn't play against an oponent with an un-painted army? Surely you would consider his/her viewpoint to be equally valid?
Still appear to be missing the point here. The question is, why does having an unpainted army matter? It's not whether you would play with an unpainted army. Also why would your viewpoint on playing against unpainted models be valid? You're not passing comment on the persons gaming playing skills or if they are a good general, but on a painted model.
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Post by: Manchu
Scott-S6 wrote:All social groups are based on an assumption of shared values. What other basis should you use to judge someone? Not to mention, on what basis are you judging those who say they wouldn't play against an oponent with an un-painted army? Surely you would consider his/her viewpoint to be equally valid?
"Shared values" does not equal "same values." Only when you realize this will you understand how social groups actually (manage to) function. There is a difference between saying "I will not play against an unpainted army" and saying "no one should play against unpainted armies." It may be "valid," in some abstract sense, to say the latter. But it is no more valid in that sense than the statement "no one should paint their own armies." In other words, they are both just opinions. IMO, the former does not sound anymore sensible than the latter.
The statement "do not assume everyone thinks like you do" does not itself proceed from an assumption that everyone thinks the same way. Quite the opposite, actually. It is therefore not an equivalent assumption. I don't know how this can be any more clear.
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Post by: High Commissar Biffsmack
LunaHound wrote:
K guys , take this as a rant / complaint / which ever you want to call it . But surely we all have our share of agitation with hobby elitists just the same
way as there is TFG during the game plays.
What is warhammer ? its as much of a game as it is hobby. Some people do it for hobby 's sake , other do it for game sake . Then the most common type , they do both
to "get more bang out of their money"
Just like some people say "lawl its a game , relax" , there is also " lawl its just a game , please dont criticize how we paint or not paint our game pieces"
I know its abit "far fetched" to say warhammer is similar to chess . But you know what i mean , units represented by miniature / sculpts . They both function the same way,
just some are more detailed and elaborate than others. So if you want to be proud that you spent 100s of hours on your intricate army , you can be proud .
But please remember , there are the other half doesnt see it the same way you do , they are but game pieces.
So before you scoff at other's unpainted armies , please rethink the following:
1) They aren't in it for the hobby aspect.
2) They don't have much free time . Some only have time for 1 game per week , don't expect everyone to have same amount of time as you.
3) Some don't have the proper materials as you. (bad brush bad primer bad paints)
4) Some don't have the knowledge in techniques or the practice. Were you always as good as you are when you started? Nope ?
The list can go on , but basically we all must realize something. "we" are not "you" Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.
Do they look like you? are they your clones ? no they arnt . So why should you suddenly expect them to do what you think they should do?
yeah I don't see why people got to be so critical of each other. It's a game, you're supposed have fun playing it with other people, not criticize how they play it.
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Post by: Ketara
Why did I start playing? Because I was young and bored, and it was the most accessible wargame with a massive background world. I loved the actual 40K universe. And like I said, if you have an imagination, the models aren't crucial. I bought the codexes, one at a time, and proxied discs for models, and played with my brothers.
Whilst someone might comment on the fact you have an unpainted army, if that's how you 'judge' people, then you have a poor sense of when judgment' is appropriate. To be frank, if I walked into your FLGS with an unpainted army, and some guy walked up to me and decided just on that basis that I must be a lazy, stupid and inferior person to them, then I, in turn, would judge that person very shallow. But I daresay that making judgments on other peoples judgments on you is a lot more valid, than making them on whether a person paints their army or not.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Manchu - Absolutely but there do seem to be certain people on this thread that are saying it is not valid to say "I believe people should paint their armies". There are people in the non-painting camp who seem to think that they should be able to present an unpainted army and their opponent shouldn't be allowed to object. That's what I object to. I wouldn't refuse to play someone because their army was unpainted although I would have no problem with someone who did. What I do have a problem with is the attitude that goes with "I haven't painted my army but you're not allowed to comment on that or refuse to play me." Refusing a game is completely different to demanding one.
Wolfstan - If someone turned up to play 40K against you with an army consisting entirely of pogs with notes scribbled on them would you be fine with that? (knowing that they had bought all the models, they just couldn't be bothered to assemble them)
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Post by: grizgrin
Man, multi quote almost had me sitting here for a long time with this response. I'll shorten it up a bit.
The point is, I think; that there really are no wrong answers here except those who would seek to alter the opinions of their opponents through negative commentary. You don't like the way they paint their army, offer to fix it if it offends you so much. I really dont care what your Space Elf with Ninja Star Blaster looks like in his paint job. WYSIWYG and telling squads apart is about the biggest responsibility a player has since it helps speed game play. Note that my response reflects my values; if you disagree you are welcome to it but I have been wargaming for years and usu just ignore opinions rendered in negative tone since they are utterly without worth and are self-defeating.
This really is all about opinion. And for those of you who would argue that indeed some opinions can be wrong, well I've seen that one too so feth off, I aint bitin.
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Post by: Frazzled
You know when you're old like me you don't give a  if its painted, not painted, made of paper or legos. Shut up and play.
To paraphrase the preacher: your concern about the status of my minis means almost nothing.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
(Sob/Moan) it's true! I don't paint my armies enough. I just don't put in the energy or time. I could, I should but I don't.
Emperor Forgive me!
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Ketara wrote:Why did I start playing? Because I was young and bored, and it was the most accessible wargame with a massive background world. I loved the actual 40K universe. And like I said, if you have an imagination, the models aren't crucial. I bought the codexes, one at a time, and proxied discs for models, and played with my brothers.
Whilst someone might comment on the fact you have an unpainted army, if that's how you 'judge' people, then you have a poor sense of when judgment' is appropriate. To be frank, if I walked into your FLGS with an unpainted army, and some guy walked up to me and decided just on that basis that I must be a lazy, stupid and inferior person to them, then I, in turn, would judge that person very shallow. But I daresay that making judgments on other peoples judgments on you is a lot more valid, than making them on whether a person paints their army or not.
I would play games like this if I had people to do so with. Vassal (can we talk about this actually?) is a fantastic way to play this way, although it lacks the 3-d aspect, but you pretty much lose that when everything is 2-d in its own plane.
Scott-S6 wrote:Manchu - Absolutely but there do seem to be certain people on this thread that are saying it is not valid to say "I believe people should paint their armies". There are people in the non-painting camp who seem to think that they should be able to present an unpainted army and their opponent shouldn't be allowed to object. That's what I object to. I wouldn't refuse to play someone because their army was unpainted although I would have no problem with someone who did. What I do have a problem with is the attitude that goes with "I haven't painted my army but you're not allowed to comment on that or refuse to play me." Refusing a game is completely different to demanding one.
Wolfstan - If someone turned up to play 40K against you with an army consisting entirely of pogs with notes scribbled on them would you be fine with that? (knowing that they had bought all the models, they just couldn't be bothered to assemble them)
Agreed and Agreed.
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Post by: Scott-S6
grizgrin wrote:. WYSIWYG and telling squads apart is about the biggest responsibility a player has since it helps speed game play.
grizgrin makes an excellent point. This why I will refuse a game against someone with more than a couple of proxy models. However, squad markings are often a major problem with the can't-be-bothered-to-paint crowd as well.
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Post by: Manchu
Scott-S6 wrote:Absolutely but there do seem to be certain people on this thread that are saying it is not valid to say "I believe people should paint their armies". There are people in the non-painting camp who seem to think that they should be able to present an unpainted army and their opponent shouldn't be allowed to object. That's what I object to. I wouldn't refuse to play someone because their army was unpainted although I would have no problem with someone who did. What I do have a problem with is the attitude that goes with "I haven't painted my army but you're not allowed to comment on that or refuse to play me." Refusing a game is completely different to demanding one.
I think we are on the same page.
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Post by: Frazzled
Wrexasaur wrote:
This is a perfect example of a simple yet effective paintjob. Nothing fancy, but it really gives the model some life. I can't imagine this taking more than one hour to make. So do 2-3 of these per week, and maybe a vehicle on the side, you will only have to spend 2/3 of a full day over the course of the entire week.
You've got to be a kid. 2/3 of a full day? Work 60-80 hours a week, commute, take care of kids, house etc. etc. then come back to me about 2/3 of a full day.
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Post by: Wolfstan
Scott-S6 wrote:Manchu - Absolutely but there do seem to be certain people on this thread that are saying it is not valid to say "I believe people should paint their armies". There are people in the non-painting camp who seem to think that they should be able to present an unpainted army and their opponent shouldn't be allowed to object. That's what I object to. I wouldn't refuse to play someone because their army was unpainted although I would have no problem with someone who did. What I do have a problem with is the attitude that goes with "I haven't painted my army but you're not allowed to comment on that or refuse to play me." Refusing a game is completely different to demanding one.
The point is not that you not allowed to, the point is why would you feel the need to? If someone pulled out an assembled unpainted army why would there be a need to say or think that it was wrong?
Wolfstan - If someone turned up to play 40K against you with an army consisting entirely of pogs with notes scribbled on them would you be fine with that? (knowing that they had bought all the models, they just couldn't be bothered to assemble them)
Please use a sensible example. We are refering to an assembled, unpainted army, not pieces of paper or counters.
My comments on counters is anside to Ketara's mention of using them. I'd thought about that before, and it would work if you had two sides the same and did some tweaking. Armies, scenery, vehicles all with a height value on them. Not as felixible as a 3d game, but potentially faster. A height 1 model's los will be blocked by a height 1 piece of scenery, but a height 2 Dreadnought (height 2) wouldn't be affected.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
um,... (look hopeful)... holidays? Sir?
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Frazzled wrote:Wrexasaur wrote:
This is a perfect example of a simple yet effective paintjob. Nothing fancy, but it really gives the model some life. I can't imagine this taking more than one hour to make. So do 2-3 of these per week, and maybe a vehicle on the side, you will only have to spend 2/3 of a full day over the course of the entire week.
You've got to be a kid. 2/3 of a full day? Work 60-80 hours a week, commute, take care of kids, house etc. etc. then come back to me about 2/3 of a full day.
I meant 2/3 of a work day, so around 5-6 hours. There was a person talking about their feats earlier with the exact situation you just described. Your free time is there for you to do what you want with it, if you are a single parent I can imagine it being next to impossible. If your spouse is kind enough to give you some play time (most are) that is fantastic, and you can do this with no problem. If you can't do that because you are simply too busy, your friends should understand that; especially if they have kids of their own .
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Post by: Dashofpepper
I started playing 40k because I'm nerdy enough to do so, and a prospective client that I was trying to win for something else happened to own a FLGS.
With that said, I have Orks and Tau (orks are my wife) and for the most part, she's painted both of them. I don't *care* about the painting aspect. I'm proud of my pink Orks simply because they're outrageous and my wife is engaged in the game.
I play 40k because of the tactical and competitive aspect of it. I don't plan on really using *any* freetime to get cracking painting because I simply don't care about the painting aspect. Some of you people are elitist enough to think that makes me a lesser hobbyist...
How about this one?
How messed up is it that I spend 6 months crafting an army list, tailoring and tweaking it, planning strategy, perfecting techniques and battleplans, and when YOU show up to the game with your well-painted fluffiness, you absolutely suck. You then waste 2.5 hours (or more) of my time while I table you. That's not fun to me. I crave competition and challenge, and if people aren't willing to take the time to learn to play their army and participate in their hobby, its a worse sin than not painting your army. Painting your army just takes up YOUR time. Playing a game with me that isn't fun because you haven't an ounce of tactical sense (but look at the inked fill-ins!) wastes your time AND my time, which is even worse.
So unless you're a golden demon winner AND the 'Ard Boyz champion, you can shut your piehole about other people's need to participate in their hobby the way you want them to. Its like frakkin' politics and abortion; bunch of crusty white guys trying to tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies.
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Post by: Manchu
That was pretty good up until the strange ravings at the end.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Buy, craft, paint THEN learn.
Or (preferably) learn, buy, craft THEN paint.
DEAL WIV IT.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Wolfstan wrote:Scott-S6 wrote:Refusing a game is completely different to demanding one.
The point is not that you not allowed to, the point is why would you feel the need to? If someone pulled out an assembled unpainted army why would there be a need to say or think that it was wrong?
I wouldn't. But if someone wants to refuse to play you because your army isn't painted that's up to them. Why shouldn't they refuse you? If their standard of army preparation is assembled+painted+based and you don't meet the standard then that's tough. Try telling a TO that he should let you play with your un-painted army.
Wolfstan - If someone turned up to play 40K against you with an army consisting entirely of pogs with notes scribbled on them would you be fine with that? (knowing that they had bought all the models, they just couldn't be bothered to assemble them)
Please use a sensible example. We are refering to an assembled, unpainted army, not pieces of paper or counters.
And here we start to see the hypocrisy.
So, painting isn't required but assembly is? Ketara would disagree with you.
I also would disagree with you as I feel that painting is required. I wouldn't refuse to play you because some of your army was unpainted but if it was entirely unpainted with absolutely no attempt being made to do so then my patience may run out. (I've never actually had that happen - I don't know any 40K players that don't paint. Some are slower than others but all of them work towards the goal of a painted army)
ETA - either they are models and should be painted or simply gaming pieces in which case it doesn't matter if they're un-painted or replaced with pogs. Your objection to the pog army suggests to me that the asthetic of the army does matter to you. Do you disagree?
1941
Post by: Wolfstan
Dashofpepper wrote:
How about this one?
How messed up is it that I spend 6 months crafting an army list, tailoring and tweaking it, planning strategy, perfecting techniques and battleplans, and when YOU show up to the game with your well-painted fluffiness, you absolutely suck. You then waste 2.5 hours (or more) of my time while I table you. That's not fun to me. I crave competition and challenge, and if people aren't willing to take the time to learn to play their army and participate in their hobby, its a worse sin than not painting your army. Painting your army just takes up YOUR time. Playing a game with me that isn't fun because you haven't an ounce of tactical sense (but look at the inked fill-ins!) wastes your time AND my time, which is even worse.
QFT
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Post by: Scott-S6
dashofpepper - you have a point and it's clear that you are 95%game vs 5%modelling in this hobby. If your opponent is 5%game vs 95%modelling then he probably felt the exact same way when he saw your army on the table.
If you want to play outside of a small group of like-minded friends then you need a decently presented army, a variety of lists of various power-levels and the ability to use them. With that you can have a good game with anyone.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Strange rant topic... not because of the theme but because of the double standart content in it.
Assuming others are elitists ( even going further and labeling those are mostly the good painters) because they dont share your ways and then preaching your take on things is just as valid as others and should be respected is just ridiculous double standart.
My take on the theme is very simple:
- I do my thing in my own way for myself... thats why I rarely game, paint now and then and sculpt mostly.
- If I game with someone I establish a conection with a person and its not "My thing for myself" anymore... its important to try to be polite and establish a friendly relationship during game, afterall its a social hobby activity and should be a positive experience.
- Being polite doesnt mean I have to take everything from the other person.
- I rarely play but when I do i like to play against a painted army, it builts my imaginary.
- Do I reject to play against grey hordes or paper models/proxies? Yes I do... Now you can call me elitist if you want.
- I dont ever comment other works unless asked for... even then most of the times I sugarcoat my opinions.
- Good for those that like playing with soda caps they save on time and money... its their thing and I respect it... just dont ask me to praise and participate.
- Last time I checked painting 40k armies is part of official rules for gaming... you can choose not to its your perrogative as is others to decline to play with you... no need to rant or btch about it just learn to embrace the consequences of your choices.
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Post by: Ketara
Please note that I don't actually play with 'pogs' anymore. That was just when I was starting out, and wanted to play the game WAY more than I wanted to model.
My main point here is that you should prepare for whatever you want from the hobby. If I'm here to play a game, and you are too, whether my stuff is painted or not is irrelevant. If I'm entering a painting contest, I would expect people to have painted figures. If you want to have a game where the theming and painting of the army is just as important as the gaming, then sure, but accept the fact that someone who's there for the gaming might not have put fifty gajillion hours into painting their lash list. You're both there for different reasons, and I doubt you'll get as much out of the game as you would if you were playing against someone there for the same reason( to play a serious competitive game, or an awesome looking fluffy campaign game).
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Didn't read the thread but I know how it goes.
The point of miniature wargames is to play with figures and terrain that look as nice as you can make them. Otherwise just play counter games or computer games.
It doesn't matter if you paint them yourself or bought them painted/built. I have both.
It doesn't matter if they aren't Golden Demon standard -- GW has raised expectations far too high and discouraged a lot of players. If they are Golden Demon standard, then well done!
Just let them not be grey plastic.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Ketara Dont ignore the fact that to play in a official tornament you have to paint it as part of the rules... Its fair enough to assume thats the official GW stance on this... And for a good reason (apart the business side of things)... thats why most assume a ideal game would be with painted miniatures... If you disagree with it its ok we live in a free world... although GW is not that democratic
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Post by: grizgrin
Just so long as you remember that rocks are NOT free, citizen. Or it shall be the Blue Chair for you!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry. I just realized that I am PUI.
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Post by: two_heads_talking
LunaHound wrote:Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.
Aren't you doing just that by assuming we should value things the same way you do?
I know it's a catch 22..
If I'm playing with a painted army and my opponent on multiple occassions shows up with no progress, I'm going to tell them I'm disappointed in their progress and ask them what help they need to progress their paint job. If it bothers me enough, i'll just let them know that if they really want to play against me that they need to progress the paint job.. I'm willing to help them too.
And good natured ribbing about paint jobs or lack thereof, bad dice rolls, name calling etc. is part of the game and I'm fine with that.
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Post by: Flashman
I'm a bit of a hobby purist in that I hate playing with and against unpainted models. I like it to be a cinematic experience as much as possible, so that means painted models to the highest possible standard.
That said, I do find I spend huge amounts of time painting models rather than playing with them. I have also lost count of the amount of times I have scrapped a painting project (i.e. a box of miniatures) because I didn't like the way I had posed one of them, or the blue wasn't quite right. It's quite autistic really.
So credit to the people who just get on play. Maybe I should!
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Post by: Wrexasaur
two_heads_talking wrote:LunaHound wrote:Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.
Aren't you doing just that by assuming we should value things the same way you do?
I know it's a catch 22..
If I'm playing with a painted army and my opponent on multiple occassions shows up with no progress, I'm going to tell them I'm disappointed in their progress and ask them what help they need to progress their paint job. If it bothers me enough, i'll just let them know that if they really want to play against me that they need to progress the paint job.. I'm willing to help them too.
And good natured ribbing about paint jobs or lack thereof, bad dice rolls, name calling etc. is part of the game and I'm fine with that.
This is my type of gaming!
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Post by: generalgrog
I don't know if I would call it elitism. I have to admit that when I have spent hours and hours painting miniatures and someone shows up for years with grey plastic I do get annoyed. I mean I just spent a lot of time painting and this guy can't even make an effort.
This has been said before but to many people, the painted aspect of this game is one of the main reasons people choose to play. It doesn't make them elitist. I have never refused to play someone with grey plastic, but If given the choice and all things being being equal, I would rather play someone that has taken the time to paint and to at least try to bring me some enjoyment as well.
GG
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Post by: gorgon
Painted armies should still be the goal that everyone strives for.
Having said that, I fully respect that people work at different paces and have different levels of interest in painting. I really do get that.
However, I tend to react more negatively to single young people claiming they don't have time to paint, because most of them are lying. Most of you will never have so much free time in your life as you have now. Once you have to balance the demands of a career, marriage, young children, bad commutes, etc. you'll be amazed how much you can do once you start managing your time better.
I might get an hour of "me" time on a weekday. Many days it's 30 minutes. Some days it's none. And yet I still make progress on my army. It's slow progress...but I still make progress. If I can do that, you young people have the ability to off the DVD player/WoW/console game or cut back on your 9.5 hours of sleep each day to paint once in a while.
If you make slow progress because you're just not into it much, then be honest and say it. I'm alright with that.
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Post by: Lord Manimal
LunaHound wrote:
Well , you 2 are looking at someone that never fiinshed painting a single army. The most i have ever painted (per army wise) is 1 squad of Necron Warriors .
Man, I don't mean to sound like a snob, but I painted 4000K of Bretonnians in a month, and god knows how many points of Space Marines in 2 months (6000+ easily). I work full time, as active duty military, have after hours exercises, 3 kids, I'm an apprentice blacksmith, have a muscle project car, a motorcycle, am married, and that's just getting started. To pretend like you don't have time to paint an army is just plain silly. If you watch TV, you have time to paint.
Hell, you're running necrons! I can paint an entire 3000+ necron army in ONE afternoon! Spraypaint black, dust on metallic silver spraypaint, then dip in army painter and you are DONE. I mean seriously, you're just kidding yourself if you act like you don't have time to paint. I've never met a human with a busier schedule than mine, and I can still turn and burn fully painted Memoir 44 sets at about 2 per month for sale on ebay for about 150$. My painting boardgame sets pays for my GW hobbies.
It's not elitism when people call you out for "not having time" it's just B.S. It's like saying "I own the moon."
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Post by: Wolfstan
Lord Manimal wrote:LunaHound wrote:
Well , you 2 are looking at someone that never fiinshed painting a single army. The most i have ever painted (per army wise) is 1 squad of Necron Warriors .
Man, I don't mean to sound like a snob, but I painted 4000K of Bretonnians in a month, and god knows how many points of Space Marines in 2 months (6000+ easily). I work full time, as active duty military, have after hours exercises, 3 kids, I'm an apprentice blacksmith, have a muscle project car, a motorcycle, am married, and that's just getting started. To pretend like you don't have time to paint an army is just plain silly. If you watch TV, you have time to paint.
Hell, you're running necrons! I can paint an entire 3000+ necron army in ONE afternoon! Spraypaint black, dust on metallic silver spraypaint, then dip in army painter and you are DONE. I mean seriously, you're just kidding yourself if you act like you don't have time to paint. I've never met a human with a busier schedule than mine, and I can still turn and burn fully painted Memoir 44 sets at about 2 per month for sale on ebay for about 150$. My painting boardgame sets pays for my GW hobbies.
It's not elitism when people call you out for "not having time" it's just B.S. It's like saying "I own the moon."
... and BANG! there you have it. It's B.S. or lazy having unpainted models. Lets ignore the fact that the person has an assembled army and knows the rules inside out and is a balanced player. In your mind there is an issue with them because the models aren't painted.
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Post by: Flashman
Lord Manimal wrote:
It's not elitism when people call you out for "not having time" it's just B.S. It's like saying "I own the moon."
Yes, except when you actually do own the moon like I do.
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Post by: Redbeard
There's a big section in the rules about how a game of miniatures is supposed to be fun for both participants.
Games are more enjoyable when both sides are fielding painted armies and obviously have some care put into them. One should strive to field a painted army, as this will make the experience more enjoyable for your opponent.
To those who say, "no time" - yeah, whatever. It's not that there is no time, it's that you choose to do other things with it. I too work a full time job, own a home and must maintain it, commute daily, and have a family that also wants my attention. What I don't do: watch tv.
If MegaDave can build and paint his entire army in a weekend then there's no reason that anyone should not be able to finish 2000 points in three months.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
That is a very good example. Truly so.
MegaDave is hardcore for doing this, but he makes a very solid point unintentionally (perhaps, yet MegaDave is a mysterious figure) about a major aspect of the hobby. Having a finished army is extremely satisfying I am sure, and forcing yourself to accomplish a goal previously unattained is even better.
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Post by: Havoc13
There are a lot of people Myself included that do not play as often as they want to becasue of this.
When I first started collecting 40k, NO one that I knew would game against an unpainted army. For people that have jobs, families, children etc. painting will have to take a backseat.
I feel as long as the opponent has an actual army not a crap load of "counts-as" and they have made an effort for WYSISYG, then it is all good.
IMO.
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Post by: Backdraft005
Kanluwen wrote:If you're going to do a miniatures game, you can take the time to paint.
It's not like you're playing 24/7, and in the most part of gaming groups they'll require SOME form of painting at least.
I agree with Kanluwen.
My prospective is that you at least try to paint. I don't care how bad it looks, especially if your excuse is that you don't have time.
Any progress is good progress. More you do it, the better you get. Etc, etc...
Playing versus a all based coat army is lame, just is.
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Post by: grizgrin
Lord Manimal wrote:....It's not elitism when people call you out for "not having time" it's just B.S. It's like saying "I own the moon."
You have a busy schedule by the sound of it. You are also extremely motivated to do certain things in your life. And yet it is so hard for you to accept that others possibly are motivated to play, but could care less about painting? You can sit there and call BS. Congratulations, you win 7 internets. Automatically Appended Next Post: And I'll throw the eighth one in for free.
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Post by: Flashman
Redbeard wrote:
If MegaDave can build and paint his entire army in a weekend then there's no reason that anyone should not be able to finish 2000 points in three months.
It's finding a spare weekend I have problems with at the moment. I'd advise Dakka members never to get married. Wedding preparations are sucking away my life!
EDIT - But in a good way, honest
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Post by: Skorpion
If you have the time to assemble armies, just don't switch and paint it instead. Instantly, you get more motivation to stick with it.
I vastly prefer armies that are painted to unpainted. 'polystyrene grey' and 'pewter white' are NOT valid colourschemes, either.
Otherwise, just how hard can it be to spray on the undercoat, basecoat one colour, and add a few details in two others?
My Marine army used to get a squad assembled and painted in about 4 hours. I ended up doing it in a sort of production line manner, and still ended up with posed and detailed models. I mean, sure, dark blue washed space marines with shiny metal guns and shoulderpads with black casings and green-painted bases aren't the prettiest of armies, but it came out looking good.
My Guard, however, are going unassambled and unpainted due to a lack of impetus. Only recently did I get an idea of what I wanted to do with them, or decide on a means to DO it.
Well, that and the chosen paint scheme reacted with my hayfever, so I was painting camoflage schemes while my nose and eyes were streaming.
The moral is, basically, that ink washes take very little time but come out with shaded, finished-looking models. Just applying blue ink to my marines was the difference between 'oh, this guy can't paint, laugh at him' to my models being used in the store's mega-battles and being complimented on the finished army.
With the only difference being the ink itself; older models just got inked, and the splashes on the detailing touched up.
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Post by: Scott-S6
grizgrin wrote:Lord Manimal wrote:....It's not elitism when people call you out for "not having time" it's just B.S. It's like saying "I own the moon."
You have a busy schedule by the sound of it. You are also extremely motivated to do certain things in your life. And yet it is so hard for you to accept that others possibly are motivated to play, but could care less about painting? You can sit there and call BS. Congratulations, you win 7 internets.
He's not - he's pointing out that the excuse-makers are exactly that.
There are two types of players that don't paint:
a) the ones that have absolutely no interest in doing so - they are only interested in playing.
b) the ones that can't be bothered.
A lot of the people that claim to be group a) are actually group b) but aren't admitting it.
There are two types of players that don't paint:
a) the ones that have absolutely no interest in doing so - they are only interested in playing.
b) the ones that can't be bothered.
A lot of the people that claim to be group a) are actually group b) but aren't admitting it.
For example, Wolfstan objects to using pogs instead of models (so clearly finds the asthetics of the model to be part of the game) but doesn't paint. Which group is he in? On that subject, would he care to answer the question that I posed him?
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Post by: Frazzled
Kilkrazy wrote:Didn't read the thread but I know how it goes.
The point of miniature wargames is to play with figures and terrain that look as nice as you can make them. Otherwise just play counter games or computer games.
It doesn't matter if you paint them yourself or bought them painted/built. I have both.
It doesn't matter if they aren't Golden Demon standard -- GW has raised expectations far too high and discouraged a lot of players. If they are Golden Demon standard, then well done!
Just let them not be grey plastic.
I have to disagree. The point of miniature wargames is to hang with comrades and have fun. The miniatures are only as relevant as you want them to be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gorgon wrote:Having fun as you see fit should still be the goal that everyone strives for.
Correc ted your typo for you
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Frazzled wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Didn't read the thread but I know how it goes.
The point of miniature wargames is to play with figures and terrain that look as nice as you can make them. Otherwise just play counter games or computer games.
It doesn't matter if you paint them yourself or bought them painted/built. I have both.
It doesn't matter if they aren't Golden Demon standard -- GW has raised expectations far too high and discouraged a lot of players. If they are Golden Demon standard, then well done!
Just let them not be grey plastic.
I have to disagree. The point of miniature wargames is to hang with comrades and have fun. The miniatures are only as relevant as you want them to be.
No, you've made one of your very rare mistakes, Frazz.
You can hang with friends and have fun justd rinking beer. if you do any more complex activity, the activity has a point in itself as well as the fun.
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Post by: Flashman
You know, JJ did this month's Standard Bearer on this subject. Apparently it's all about pie, which piece you enjoy the most and how large it is.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Frazzled wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Didn't read the thread but I know how it goes.
The point of miniature wargames is to play with figures and terrain that look as nice as you can make them. Otherwise just play counter games or computer games.
It doesn't matter if you paint them yourself or bought them painted/built. I have both.
It doesn't matter if they aren't Golden Demon standard -- GW has raised expectations far too high and discouraged a lot of players. If they are Golden Demon standard, then well done!
Just let them not be grey plastic.
I have to disagree. The point of miniature wargames is to hang with comrades and have fun. The miniatures are only as relevant as you want them to be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gorgon wrote:Having fun as you see fit should still be the goal that everyone strives for.
Correc ted your typo for you
Just to tease a bit... you dont need wargames for that 
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Post by: Wolfstan
Scott-S6 wrote:grizgrin wrote:Lord Manimal wrote:....It's not elitism when people call you out for "not having time" it's just B.S. It's like saying "I own the moon."
You have a busy schedule by the sound of it. You are also extremely motivated to do certain things in your life. And yet it is so hard for you to accept that others possibly are motivated to play, but could care less about painting? You can sit there and call BS. Congratulations, you win 7 internets.
He's not - he's pointing out that the excuse-makers are exactly that.
There are two types of players that don't paint:
a) the ones that have absolutely no interest in doing so - they are only interested in playing.
b) the ones that can't be bothered.
A lot of the people that claim to be group a) are actually group b) but aren't admitting it.
There are two types of players that don't paint:
a) the ones that have absolutely no interest in doing so - they are only interested in playing.
b) the ones that can't be bothered.
A lot of the people that claim to be group a) are actually group b) but aren't admitting it.
For example, Wolfstan objects to using pogs instead of models (so clearly finds the asthetics of the model to be part of the game) but doesn't paint. Which group is he in? On that subject, would he care to answer the question that I posed him?
Hmm, where did I say that I don't paint? See my first post. For the record I have painted:
1 RoE Panzer Lehr force
1 RoE Royal Marine Commando force
1 RoE US Paratroopers force
1 large force of Syntha
2 Warhammer Historical Pirate gangs
A large group of Wolfen
A large group of Kelts
Building a Panzer Lehr FoW force
A Very British Civil War force
Working on my Gripping Beast Vikings
Painting up a Valkyrie to sell
Painting up a Drop Pod to sell
Painting up a Baneblade to sell
Painting up an Infinity force
Painting up a Junkers force
I have sold over the last few years:
A fully painted 6000pt + Space Wolf army
A fully painted Sisters of Battle army (approx 2000pts)
A fully painted Warhammer Dwarf army (approx 2000pts)
A fully painted Tallarn army (2000pts)
A fully painted Trollbloods army
A fully painted Menoth force
A fully painted PBI Russian force
Nuff said.
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Post by: Frazzled
Kilkrazy wrote:Frazzled wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Didn't read the thread but I know how it goes.
The point of miniature wargames is to play with figures and terrain that look as nice as you can make them. Otherwise just play counter games or computer games.
It doesn't matter if you paint them yourself or bought them painted/built. I have both.
It doesn't matter if they aren't Golden Demon standard -- GW has raised expectations far too high and discouraged a lot of players. If they are Golden Demon standard, then well done!
Just let them not be grey plastic.
I have to disagree. The point of miniature wargames is to hang with comrades and have fun. The miniatures are only as relevant as you want them to be.
No, you've made one of your very rare mistakes, Frazz.
You can hang with friends and have fun justd rinking beer. if you do any more complex activity, the activity has a point in itself as well as the fun.
Oh I make mistakes on a second by second basis
Again I disagree. To many, the gaming itself is the equivalent of drinking beer and playing cards with a group of friends. Indeed I could just as soon be throwing lead downrange, and sipping a wine bsing with the crew before the movie starts.
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Post by: Saldiven
I have to agree with Luna's original post.
I have been playing Warhammer 40K since the Rogue Trader book came out in, I think, 1988-1989. I still own the first print I bought from Komix Kastle in Macon, GA when I was in high school. When I was younger and had more free time, I enjoyed painting.
Now, I see painting and sculpting as an albatross around my neck. I know that other people really enjoy their painting and love it. More power to them. I can appreciate a well painted army.
Personally, I hate it. I can think of about a dozen things that I would rather be doing that are more rewarding to my life than painting a Warhammer army. That's my opinion, and it is no more or less valid than the opinion of someone who loves their painting.
I play 40K because I enjoy the strategic aspects, the competitive aspects, and the chance to spend time with my friends.
I have been playing for 20 years, and I have exactly two painted armies. Both of them took me forever to do, and they're not particularly good. I know I could to better, but there are so many things I would rather be doing than sitting at a desk with a paintbrush in my hand.
I'm sorry if some of you will judge me as being somehow deficient as a gamer because of this, but I guarantee you that you'd have a good time playing against me. (Assuming you could get by the poorly painted and unpainted models.)
Ultimately (hopefully), the reason people play a game like 40K is because they enjoy it. There are so many different aspects to 40K that someone can enjoy that it is ridiculous to think that everyone else enjoys the exact same aspects of it as YOU do. No one person's opinions on the matter are superior to anyone else's; opinions are like that.
What we need more of in this hobby is respect for other players and how their perceive the "fun" part of the game/hobby/whatever.
I've known people who were amazing painter/converters who either never played or were horrible players. I've also known great players that were too busy with actual important aspects of real life to do any more than build the models so they could play one or two games on a Saturday. These people derived enjoyment from the game by doing the aspect that they liked. Who am I to judge them and tell them they're doing it wrong?
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
I never paint.
I just play 40k for the extremely balanced and well-written rules. The inexpensive models are just gravy.
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Post by: punkisntdeadyet
I think we should all aspire to paint our armies. Yes I don't mind playing with someone's half painted army, because I can understand that it's hard to fit in the time to paint/finish an army with work and all of the other trappings of life. I DO get disappointed when I see a sea of plastic on every table, because no one even makes an effort to try and paint their models. No, splashes of colour here and there do not count.
If this is a hobby (and it is), then we should try and get better at EVERY aspect of it. Sure you're awesome at the game, I'm glad! Unfortunately, you're using half built models, with glue everywhere, and one model is basecoated. It just doesn't look attractive! There is definitely an aesthetic value to having two painted armies on the battlefield, and I think we SHOULD call out people who just buy the models, glue them, and put them on a table. Not having the adequate supplies is not an excuse, considering how readily available they are and how readily available free tutorials are on how to paint (either from other gamers, GW Staff [although the quality is lessening as of late], or online). We should at least make an effort to try and paint our models. And really, how hard is learning how to put down basecoats, drybrush highlights, or even use those new GW washes? Obviously, not expecting a Golden Demon standard for everyone, but why can't we aspire to somewhere close? It's just disheartening to similarly see people tossing their models in boxes, throwing them around with no real care or attention. These sort of attitudes really hurt the hobby, not because these people are bad people, but it sets a standard for everyone else that, "it doesn't matter". If this comes across as sounding elitist, then that's what it is.
I would prefer if people at least made an effort to paint their armies before they use them, just because it makes the experience so much more rewarding for everyone.
The few people I've seen with unpainted armies, who absolutely refuse to make ANY progress with them are:
a) TFG(s)
b) Obnoxious kids
c) Combinations of a & b.
Hate away!
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Post by: Cane
Agreed with Luna.
However the GW Hobby lends itself towards elitist attitudes since its the most expensive toy soldiers wargaming hobby out there. That doesn't mean its justified though; however GW elitists have superficial GW tournament rules and such to reinforce their holier-than-thou perspectives.
Its like talking smack about a lvl 80 WOW character who isn't as skilled or geared as someone who devotes a lot more time in raiding/pvping even though WOW can be thoroughly enjoyed through casual play. And then there are guys who have multiple accounts, first ones to do this or that, and a whole lot of other crap that elitists pride themselves on. Pride is fine but not at the expense of others since thats just silly and demeaning.
But to each their own.
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Post by: ArbitorIan
I'm kinda with Luna on this, with a caveat.
It's your hobby - if you really like modelling and playing, and hate painting, you don't HAVE to paint your models. That's ABSOLUTELY FINE.
You don't have a 'responsibility' to do it - that's a load of rubbish.
However, one of the things I get from the game is the look of two fully painted armies on a battlefield. I hate playing against unpainted models. Playing someone who has an unpainted army compromised MY enjoyment of the game. So I won't play anyone with an unpainted army. Easy.
It's absolutely fine for you not to paint your models. You're free to do whatever you want. But I wouldn't want to play against you. Which, again, is absolutely fine.
Now, I think a lot of players feel the same way as me. So one thing you might have to accept is that, if you don't want to paint your army, you might have trouble finding opponents to play against...
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Post by: Kirasu
Most of my friends havent painted their armies and its been 5 years.. To me thats fine, it doesnt hinder my enjoyment of the game because its all about the actual game
Now, I do understand why some dont like playing against unpainted armies. It gives off the vibe that the person is a power gamer and doesnt really care about their models.. they just want to beat you
One of the stores near me used to require everything be painted or they didnt let you play.. I think that is an awful rule because if you BUY something you should be able to play with it.. Eventually they got rid of that rule because people said to hell with you guys we'll buy somewhere else
I do like models to be painted.. especially in my narrative games.. and there comes a point where the "I dont have time" excuse gets old
There is a difference between "I dont have time" and "I dont want to make time"
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Post by: Backdraft005
Orkeosaurus wrote:I never paint.
I just play 40k for the extremely balanced and well-written rules. The inexpensive models are just gravy.
Sarcasm much?
Anyways, its all relative to the gaming area each of us is in, relative then to what those people care about.
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Post by: xceptionzero
Basic 3 colours and im happy to play against anyone who has painted to any standard at all..
i am a lazy painter as i prefer the following hobby bits in this order
1st sculpting/converting
2nd gaming
3rd painting
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Post by: Lord Manimal
I dunno. I just figure that if you just wanted to play a tactical game without fancy armies or peices then you should be playing board games like Tide of Iron, Battlelore, Memoir 44, Battlecry; the list goes on and on. That is the section of the gaming universe reserved for players that just like the "tactical" aspect. As was mentioned earlier, there are far better rulesets out there for sci-fi battles that can be done with pen and paper or cardboard chips. You didn't get into this hobby because of the glowing, error free and highly playtested ruleset - at least be honest with yourselves on this point. You got into it because of the cool models, and the well painted impressive armies on the game tables that were painstaking painted by the players of this HOBBY. Not game. HOBBY.
You want a game, go pick up a copy of Monopoly, and have good ole fashioned family fun with your plain plastic bits; no one at the Monopoly tournament will expect them to be painted and you can focus on the game itself rather than be distracted by people griping about your untrimmed houses. I'm really surprised this argument is still going on. There are games, and there are hobbys. It's pretty clear which side of the fence the current rendition of 40K is in.
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Post by: GoFenris
Its kind of an interesting argument. Modeling or painting? But isn't it supposed to be both for Warhammer (40k & Fantasy)?
I mean, you can model/convert all day, alone. No one else is involved unless they're appreciating your work which is after the fact and indirectly.
Playing? You're involving others directly.
I guess I'll have to agree with the "three color" argument combined with the army showing continued improvement idea(as I am currently a perpetrator of this and a slow painter).
Just my thoughts.
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Post by: Mattlov
I have no problems with unpainted armies. AT ALL.
It is very time consuming. Even speed painting is not fast. "Yay! I got a squad done today!" Great sentiment, sure.
But when you look at a Tyranid army, and know that painting 1 figure is not even a full percent of your army, or possibly even a 1/2 percent, you have to balance time to paint with time to play, or time away from the game to stay interested.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
Scott-S6 wrote:dashofpepper - you have a point and it's clear that you are 95%game vs 5%modelling in this hobby. If your opponent is 5%game vs 95%modelling then he probably felt the exact same way when he saw your army on the table.
If you want to play outside of a small group of like-minded friends then you need a decently presented army, a variety of lists of various power-levels and the ability to use them. With that you can have a good game with anyone.
My army is painted. Some of it even got done on a commission (Hulksmash here on Dakkdakka) because I was curious to see what it would look like. My point is that I don't care if someone's army is painted or not. I care about spending 2-6 hours of my time having fun. FUN. Not goggling over someone's army, they can take pictures and post them online.
When I play a game against someone and I beat them down because they're not very good, you know what I do? I have an after action review (AAR) with them, and talk about what tactical changes, or army list changes might have helped, what I noticed, and how I think they could improve to fare better next time.
I do *NOT* frown down the end of my nose at their tactical inferiority and suggest that they go play something requiring less brainpower, or demand that they learn how to play before playing me against to prevent me from being bored during a game.
For anyone at all to judge ANYONE else's participation in the hobby is simply unacceptable. Just like a freakin' MMO. We all pay for it, and we can play it any damn way that we want to. Lets say that you and I both spend $25 buying a box of miniatures. We both assembled them and are playing the same game with them. For you to think how you treated your $25 is better than how I treated mine...is none of your business. If a tournament has a painting score built into it ( RTT) then you're welcome to reflect your displeasure with someone's painting scheme on paper, via a score, for the judge.
Short of that, if someone is criticizing someone for lack of paint, or not wanting to play with them, or segregating them out of their group because they think they're better...hammer to the nuts for you.
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Post by: gorgon
So you want to nut-hammer someone who views the hobby differently than you because you feel it's wrong to judge others based on how they view the hobby.
GENIUS.
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Post by: Tazok
Dashofpepper wrote:How messed up is it that I spend 6 months crafting an army list, tailoring and tweaking it, planning strategy, perfecting techniques and battleplans, and when YOU show up to the game with your well-painted fluffiness, you absolutely suck. You then waste 2.5 hours (or more) of my time while I table you. That's not fun to me. I crave competition and challenge, and if people aren't willing to take the time to learn to play their army and participate in their hobby, its a worse sin than not painting your army. Painting your army just takes up YOUR time. Playing a game with me that isn't fun because you haven't an ounce of tactical sense (but look at the inked fill-ins!) wastes your time AND my time, which is even worse.
Sounds to me like you do look down on people that don't take gaming as seriously as you. By the way, most people take longer than six months to fully paint their army so they have more a time investment commitment than you. You should respect their commitment if you expect them to respect yours.
Dashofpepper wrote:When I play a game against someone and I beat them down because they're not very good, you know what I do? I have an after action review (AAR) with them, and talk about what tactical changes, or army list changes might have helped, what I noticed, and how I think they could improve to fare better next time.
I do *NOT* frown down the end of my nose at their tactical inferiority and suggest that they go play something requiring less brainpower, or demand that they learn how to play before playing me against to prevent me from being bored during a game.
How is having an "AAR" any different than suggesting to someone how to get their army painted. You're trying to improve an aspect of the hobby that you think is not up to par. I hope you realize that you're contradicted yourself in your above two quotes and you come across as an extreme WAAC in the majority of your posts.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
gorgon wrote:So you want to nut-hammer someone who views the hobby differently than you because you feel it's wrong to judge others based on how they view the hobby.
GENIUS.
Thanks for taking what I wrote out of context. I want to nut-hammer anyone who ridicules or treats another gamer poorly. Period.
Look throughout this thread. How many people in here have said, "Oh, you don't want to participate in my hobby the way I want you to? Go find another hobby." That is pure, unadulterated, bull. Who the **** is anyone here to tell another person that they need to go find another hobby if they're not willing to conform to a particular belief about how their plastic toys should be treated?
*EDIT* And Tazok, while my army is painted, colorfully, with a lot of details...it won't ever win a painting contest. My wife paints most of it, I paint some, and neither of us would ever get hired to commission paint someone's stuff; my hand isn't steady enough with a paintbrush to paint straight lines, even though I have a magnifying glass/light on my desk to try helping my painting.
Call me a WAAC player...continue frowning on people who don't line up to your Hilterian beliefs that there is only one true way. Yep - I like to win. I've never taken a cookie-cutter list of anything, but I consistently win nonetheless; I'm simply a superior tactician. I play 40k so that I can be a general over my army and see them excel. I play for tactics, strategy, and hanging out. Not to paint and frown at other people for not loving their paintbrushes like I do.
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Post by: two_heads_talking
Frazzled wrote:
Again I disagree. To many, the gaming itself is the equivalent of drinking beer and playing cards with a group of friends. Indeed I could just as soon be throwing lead downrange, and sipping a wine bsing with the crew before the movie starts.
that's how it is for me.. Personally I don't drink, so getting together with friends is my socialization. Sometimes we hit the shooting range, sometimes we play warhammer or bloodbowl or space hulk or whatever and sometimes we shoot paintballs at each other.
Sometimes we point out that an army is still unpainted after 6 months with no progress, we usually make a big deal of this, so the offender feels really really stupid for not doing anything.. That no progress army player is the one who buys the rounds for the next shooting activity (that's motivation enough to paint your damn army in our group)..
Although I keep reminding the younger crowd, you can drink and you can shoot but you can't drink and shoot at the same time, we don't allow that kinda hillbilly crap to go on..
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Post by: Ketara
Sorry, but the, 'Ah, you don't respect the view of someone who doesn't respect yours so you're just as bad' thing doesn't work here. According to that kind of logic, we shouldn't lock kidnappers up, because then we're doing exactly the same thing as them by holding someone against their will.
NO.
Go and practice your pseudo-philosophical psychological paradoxes somewhere else please.
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Post by: Asmodai
Painting is a large part of the hobby and really the only way to justify the cost of the models. Otherwise, Lord Manimal is correct that there are other games that will provide a far better bang for your gaming buck. I'll also add that D&D/Star Wars minis, Confrontation, AT-43 and a number of other games come prepainted. If you're looking for solely the gaming aspect, one of those might fit your needs much better than 40K.
I probably spend 6 hours painting for every one hour of playing. If I removed the painting time from the equation, the cost of 40K/WFB would be very difficult to justify.
Half my armies are unpainted since I'm a fairly slow painter. Ergo, I'm not going to refuse to play unpainted armies. I do prefer playing with my painted armies, and I think it's very noticeable how much more fun the game is with two painted armies and some decent terrain.
I'd recommend people paint just because it will make the game much more fun for them and their opponent.
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Post by: Oldgrue
ArbitorIan wrote:
It's absolutely fine for you not to paint your models. You're free to do whatever you want.
Pretty much. The problem is that its rather uncool to have two squads of bare plastic anything next to each other, or heaven forbid interleaved. It just causes trouble, and is basically uncool. The more it drifts from wysiwyg the worse things get.
There is a social convention that folks point their wargames minis. Its just good form no matter the system, since it helps identify models/units for both players.
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Post by: Frazzled
Asmodai wrote:Painting is a large part of the hobby and really the only way to justify the cost of the models. Otherwise, Lord Manimal is correct that there are other games that will provide a far better bang for your gaming buck. I'll also add that D&D/Star Wars minis, Confrontation, AT-43 and a number of other games come prepainted. If you're looking for solely the gaming aspect, one of those might fit your needs much better than 40K.
I probably spend 6 hours painting for every one hour of playing. If I removed the painting time from the equation, the cost of 40K/WFB would be very difficult to justify.
Half my armies are unpainted since I'm a fairly slow painter. Ergo, I'm not going to refuse to play unpainted armies. I do prefer playing with my painted armies, and I think it's very noticeable how much more fun the game is with two painted armies and some decent terrain.
I'd recommend people paint just because it will make the game much more fun for them and their opponent.
Sorry I do not subscribe to the gentle judging of "maybe you should play another game."
translation: I call bs. You can do what you want. Those that don't like it can suck it and I'd point and laugh at them anyway (but I mean it in the best way possible).
Being old means you don't give a gak what other people think.
Some people like to paint. Let them paint.
Some like to model. Let them model.
Some like to play with lists. Let them play.
Some like to game. Let them game.
Don't oppress me with your RULZ MAAN!
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Post by: Leotilt
Wow a lot of childish mindsets in this thread.
You guys know that it is ok for other people to spend there money how they want and play a game how they want to play. If someone does not want to paint but enjoys playing warhams then that is cool, no really it is, he is ok to do that without being wierd just because he does not view the world through the same eyes that you do.
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Post by: combatmedic
The place I play at accepts peoples armies no matter what state of painting they are in. Most have really basic paint jobs, others are only primed, one guy has had his army for a year and hasn't even primed it.
We dont care in terms of the paint jobs because we are all there to play the game, not get into a story telling experience. Only one guy there is really into LARPing and D&D, and while his stuff is painted, he doesnt go off on people whos stuff is the bare plastic. Sure we make fun of people who dont have their stuff painted, but in a playful way, not a "You dont get your stuff painted you dont play" tone.
For whatever reason I had some kind of mental awakening and decided the paint scheme of my 15K point army was crap. I spent almost 2 months stripping and re-assembling my entire army, and I am about half way done with painting them all. I still use my primed but unpainted models because again, Im there to play.
Some people dont like to paint, or dont want to paint. Fine. You can choose not to play with them, or try to push them away from the hobby, but who is that going to hurt in the long run? Thats one less person to play, and to others who dont feel the same way as you do (and there are ALOT of us out there), you will look like a jerk.
Everyone is entitled to their option, just don't force it on others.
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Post by: Crazy_Carnifex
Alright! Lets stop playing proverbial ping-pong with the points! Lets look at this is a rational, subjective manner.
1) Many players feel that painting/Converting is a major factor in the game, and feel that their hobby experience is less if you don't paint.
2) By not painting, you are makeing them question the importance of what they do. People hate to think, and this results in a snobby, superior attitude as Painters develope a mentality that pushes non-painters into a lower class of lifeform, thereby establishing that, by painting, they are showing their supperiority, thus establishing the importance of what they do (Painting).
3) By not painting, you appear lazy, as the painters generally have time or find time, and, in a very human manner, judge you by their own standards. Either that or you appear to be a Skinflint, because you don't seem to care enough about your armies appearance to send it in for a commission job. Either way, you look like a slob, and they treat you as one.
However, there are counterpoints:
1) Money. This hobby is expensive. Paints, primer, brushes, all of these cost money. Many players would rather have lots of WYSIWYG Models than a small selection of painted armies. The models also cost a lot, which explains the profusion of Proxy and empty base armies.
2) Time. Often even harder to find than money. Who will have more time: the 16-year-old on summer vacation, or the Guy with a full-time job, a hour long commute, three kids and a pile of housework? Obviously, the 16-year-old, who probably only has a part-time job, no kids, and some chores.
3) Many people just do not feel that painting is that important. They do not want to bother painting that army, and would rather just go play Apocolypse. They also do not want to pay for pro painting, as they would rather go buy a Stompa. These people are in it for the gameplay, and don't want to find some obscure game with only 3 other guys in the country playing it.
But, there are solutions!
Painters: Lower your stadards a bit for games at the club, but feel free to ding them in tournaments.
Non Painters: I have prepared a small FAQ on some of the non-paint Related parts of painting
Q)What if we can't afford the supplies?
A) Simple. Take a good, hard look at your expenses, particularily at the luxury section. Ask yourself, can I cut back on anything here? Sometimes it's easy. If you are always buying more models for your army, try cutting back a bit. Next month, buy painting suppies instead of new models. Six pack a day smoker? Try cutting down to five. That will really see the cash pile up. Same with Coffee. Make it from home instead of buying from Starbucks. Consolidate trips, and the money will flow (Gas is murder these days). Small things, but over time they really pay off. Some still may not be able to afford anyhting more than they already can, but many will find themselves rolling in dough.
Q) What if I simply do not have the time?
A) Finding time is easy. Finished Lunch? Spend the rest of your break painting those space marines that are stored under your desk. Finished work, and your date isn't for half an hour? Painting time! Same with Breakfast to work. Half an hour? Great! Watching the News? Try just listening and glanceing up occasionaly. Your eyes are now free to paint! Even if the amount of time that you can find is still small, remember: 15 Minutes a week is better than no time at all.
Q) What if I just don't care?
A) Then it is perfectly understandable for someone who paint's and plays to regard themselves as more into the hobby than you.
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Post by: Wolfstan
Asmodai wrote:Painting is a large part of the hobby and really the only way to justify the cost of the models. Otherwise, Lord Manimal is correct that there are other games that will provide a far better bang for your gaming buck. I'll also add that D&D/Star Wars minis, Confrontation, AT-43 and a number of other games come prepainted. If you're looking for solely the gaming aspect, one of those might fit your needs much better than 40K.
/quote]
... and the winner of the most condescending comment goes to that man there. Well done sir. I'll just get those offending grey plastic models out of your sight and go and play the games that you allow me to.
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Post by: Saldiven
Y'know, I'm happy for all the people that feel rewarded by spending as much time as they do in modeling and painting.
Here is what I do in the time that the painters are painting:
Work 2 jobs; loan officer during the day and ballroom dance teacher 2-3 nights per week.
Take my ballroom competition training and practice with my partner.
Go out social dancing with friends.
Go to the gym 6-8 hours per week on average.
Practice with my club volleyball team; go to tournaments every month or so.
Have a social life by having at least one date-like-thing per week.
My life is very full. During the week, I leave my apartment by 7:30 in the morning and don't usually get back until 8:30 to 9:00, not until 11:00 if I teach that night. I usually have 3-4 hours on Saturday afternoon to spend with my gamer friends, and I'd rather spend that playing something that sitting around painting.
So, which of the above things that I do (that I actually enjoy) should I give up so that I can paint (which I hate) so that I can keep the "paint your minis" types happy?
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Post by: utan
Frazzled wrote:
Some people like to paint. Let them paint.
Some like to model. Let them model.
Some like to play with lists. Let them play.
Some like to game. Let them game.
Some like to judge. Let them judge 
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Post by: Frazzled
Point! Utan!
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Post by: Dashofpepper
*shakes his head*
I can't believe the absolutely ugly, elitist, too-clean-to-touch-you attitude that is rearing its head in this thread. Some of you folks need to listen to yourselves - the idea that you'd bar someone from playing a GAME with you because they haven't spent as much time painting as you have is ridiculous. This isn't the southern United States in 1960...keep the black kids out of my school, and you're going to turn around and bring something else offensive?
Yeah...you don't appreciate some aspect of how you spend your fun time, I think you need to find another hobby. I'm on the verge of vulgarity here and holding back the best that I can, but you folks need to have a brand smoked into your forehead that is a word starting with "C" and refers to a woman's no-no place.
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Post by: Crazy_Carnifex
Saldiven wrote:Y'know, I'm happy for all the people that feel rewarded by spending as much time as they do in modeling and painting.
Here is what I do in the time that the painters are painting:
Work 2 jobs; loan officer during the day and ballroom dance teacher 2-3 nights per week.
Take my ballroom competition training and practice with my partner.
Go out social dancing with friends.
Go to the gym 6-8 hours per week on average.
Practice with my club volleyball team; go to tournaments every month or so.
Have a social life by having at least one date-like-thing per week.
My life is very full. During the week, I leave my apartment by 7:30 in the morning and don't usually get back until 8:30 to 9:00, not until 11:00 if I teach that night. I usually have 3-4 hours on Saturday afternoon to spend with my gamer friends, and I'd rather spend that playing something that sitting around painting.
So, which of the above things that I do (that I actually enjoy) should I give up so that I can paint (which I hate) so that I can keep the "paint your minis" types happy?
Perhaps get up 15 minutes earlier. There is 15 minutes per day that you could spend on painting.
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Post by: Frazzled
Dashofpepper wrote:*shakes his head*
I can't believe the absolutely ugly, elitist, too-clean-to-touch-you attitude that is rearing its head in this thread. Some of you folks need to listen to yourselves - the idea that you'd bar someone from playing a GAME with you because they haven't spent as much time painting as you have is ridiculous. This isn't the southern United States in 1960...keep the black kids out of my school, and you're going to turn around and bring something else offensive?
Skokie wasn't in the South. Rodney King wasn't in the South. Black Panther party didn't start in the South. Just a gentle reminder.
Yeah...you don't appreciate some aspect of how you spend your fun time, I think you need to find another hobby. I'm on the verge of vulgarity here and holding back the best that I can, but you folks need to have a brand smoked into your forehead that is a word starting with "C" and refers to a woman's no-no place.
People can do what they want. Don't want to play me for whatever reason? Thats completely fine. Their loss.
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Post by: Asmodai
Frazzled wrote:
Sorry I do not subscribe to the gentle judging of "maybe you should play another game."
translation: I call bs. You can do what you want. Those that don't like it can suck it and I'd point and laugh at them anyway (but I mean it in the best way possible).
Being old means you don't give a gak what other people think.
Some people like to paint. Let them paint.
Some like to model. Let them model.
Some like to play with lists. Let them play.
Some like to game. Let them game.
Don't oppress me with your RULZ MAAN!
Then don't oppress me with you gray blobs of plastic.
Seriously though, it's like you have a friend who enjoys shooting bottles off of fence posts. He's buying $75 bottle of champagne for the purpose. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that he can get $3 bottles that suit the purpose just as well.
Maybe he really enjoys seeing the fizz when the champagne bottles explode and will keep shooting them. There's no point arguing with him about it, but there's also nothing wrong with pointing out that alternatives exist.
(Another alternative is VASSAL, you get the full 40K rules, can field whatever army you want, spend no money and no one will complain about your painting.)
Saldiven wrote:Y'know, I'm happy for all the people that feel rewarded by spending as much time as they do in modeling and painting.
Here is what I do in the time that the painters are painting:
Work 2 jobs; loan officer during the day and ballroom dance teacher 2-3 nights per week.
Take my ballroom competition training and practice with my partner.
Go out social dancing with friends.
Go to the gym 6-8 hours per week on average.
Practice with my club volleyball team; go to tournaments every month or so.
Have a social life by having at least one date-like-thing per week.
My life is very full. During the week, I leave my apartment by 7:30 in the morning and don't usually get back until 8:30 to 9:00, not until 11:00 if I teach that night. I usually have 3-4 hours on Saturday afternoon to spend with my gamer friends, and I'd rather spend that playing something that sitting around painting.
So, which of the above things that I do (that I actually enjoy) should I give up so that I can paint (which I hate) so that I can keep the "paint your minis" types happy?
Odd, I have a rewarding career and full social life, but I can easily find 10-15 minutes here and there when dinner is cooking, I'm ready for work earlier than I expected, waiting for friends to show up when I'm going out.
Everyone's life involves short gaps between activities unless you live in some Dickensian workhouse. If you just spend those 10-15 chunks painting a few times a week, you'll have a painted army within a year and it involves sacrificing none of the things you mentioned. It's just a matter of time management. If you do the "two colours and dip method", you'd probably be done and fully painted in a month.
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Post by: gorgon
Dashofpepper wrote:Thanks for taking what I wrote out of context. I want to nut-hammer anyone who ridicules or treats another gamer poorly. Period.
Is simply saying "I'd rather not play with you" bad treatment? That's what you said here, and that's what I'm responding to:
Short of that, if someone is criticizing someone for lack of paint, or not wanting to play with them, or segregating them out of their group because they think they're better...hammer to the nuts for you.
If you're going to come at this from a "pursuit of happiness" standpoint, then pro-paint hobbyists should be allowed to pursue their hobby with those of a similar mindset and not be called to the carpet for it either.
Personally, I'm all for live and let live. But live and let live does not involve nut-hammers.
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Post by: Crazy_Carnifex
Dashofpepper wrote:*shakes his head*
I can't believe the absolutely ugly, elitist, too-clean-to-touch-you attitude that is rearing its head in this thread. Some of you folks need to listen to yourselves - the idea that you'd bar someone from playing a GAME with you because they haven't spent as much time painting as you have is ridiculous. This isn't the southern United States in 1960...keep the black kids out of my school, and you're going to turn around and bring something else offensive?
Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
2) By not painting, you are makeing them question the importance of what they do. People hate to think, and this results in a snobby, superior attitude as Painters develope a mentality that pushes non-painters into a lower class of lifeform, thereby establishing that, by painting, they are showing their supperiority, thus establishing the importance of what they do (Painting).
Its the exact same attitudes.
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Post by: Frazzled
I'm assuming his life is busy and he doesn't want to paint.
Thats just fine. He will play with people that don't care. Those that do care with play only with other like minded individuals. It balances out as it should. Frazzled will still be cranky. All is right in the world.
(I find it ironic my game play is predomonantly with people who routinely win best painted)
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Post by: gorgon
Saldiven wrote:Y'know, I'm happy for all the people that feel rewarded by spending as much time as they do in modeling and painting.
Here is what I do in the time that the painters are painting:
Work 2 jobs; loan officer during the day and ballroom dance teacher 2-3 nights per week.
Take my ballroom competition training and practice with my partner.
Go out social dancing with friends.
Go to the gym 6-8 hours per week on average.
Practice with my club volleyball team; go to tournaments every month or so.
Have a social life by having at least one date-like-thing per week.
My life is very full. During the week, I leave my apartment by 7:30 in the morning and don't usually get back until 8:30 to 9:00, not until 11:00 if I teach that night. I usually have 3-4 hours on Saturday afternoon to spend with my gamer friends, and I'd rather spend that playing something that sitting around painting.
So, which of the above things that I do (that I actually enjoy) should I give up so that I can paint (which I hate) so that I can keep the "paint your minis" types happy?
Okay, let me play devil's advocate here.
All the things I've highlighted in bold are hobbies/activities you choose to pursue, right? They're not commitments like a family or job. So those are your leisure time activities...and you're simply prioritizing those leisure time activities over your gaming hobby. That's fine...that makes you a well-rounded person.
But my question is whether someone wanting to enjoy their hobby with others that have similar priorities really a bad guy? If your club volleyball team goes to tournaments, I assume it's at least a semi-competitive thing. Imagine if there was someone on your team that never practiced, never attempted to get better on their own, and really just didn't care to participate much. Wouldn't that be a little annoying to those of you more engaged in the team?
That wouldn't give you the right to act like an a$$hole toward them. No one has a right to behave like an a$$hole to another person. But wouldn't you maybe say something polite and tactful if it was hindering the fun of those more engaged in the team? And does that really fit the definition of a$$hole behavior?
I'm not saying that's what you're saying...I'm just having a lot of trouble following the logic trains of a lot of people here. I don't know how you can say live and let live and then call the other person a jerk for behaving similarly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:Thats just fine. He will play with people that don't care. Those that do care with play only with other like minded individuals. It balances out as it should. Frazzled will still be cranky. All is right in the world.
Yeah, and yet there seem to be individuals on either side of this discussion saying that this is somehow wrong. Maybe I'm getting old, cranky and dull, but I can't follow their logic to save my life.
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Post by: two_heads_talking
Leotilt wrote:Wow a lot of childish mindsets in this thread.
You guys know that it is ok for other people to spend there money how they want and play a game how they want to play. If someone does not want to paint but enjoys playing warhams then that is cool, no really it is, he is ok to do that without being wierd just because he does not view the world through the same eyes that you do.
by that same logic, the person who only wants to play someone with a painted army is also ok.. he's just being weird too..
so basically you agree with the OP but you agree to be absolutely opposite right?
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Post by: combatmedic
You know what. I blame Luna for starting this thread and making everyone yell at each other.
YOUR RUINING THIS FAMILY LUNA.
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Post by: two_heads_talking
gorgon wrote:Saldiven wrote:Y'know, I'm happy for all the people that feel rewarded by spending as much time as they do in modeling and painting.
Here is what I do in the time that the painters are painting:
Work 2 jobs; loan officer during the day and ballroom dance teacher 2-3 nights per week.
Take my ballroom competition training and practice with my partner.
Go out social dancing with friends.
Go to the gym 6-8 hours per week on average.
Practice with my club volleyball team; go to tournaments every month or so.
Have a social life by having at least one date-like-thing per week.
My life is very full. During the week, I leave my apartment by 7:30 in the morning and don't usually get back until 8:30 to 9:00, not until 11:00 if I teach that night. I usually have 3-4 hours on Saturday afternoon to spend with my gamer friends, and I'd rather spend that playing something that sitting around painting.
So, which of the above things that I do (that I actually enjoy) should I give up so that I can paint (which I hate) so that I can keep the "paint your minis" types happy?
Okay, let me play devil's advocate here.
All the things I've highlighted in bold are hobbies/activities you choose to pursue, right? They're not commitments like a family or job. So those are your leisure time activities...and you're simply prioritizing those leisure time activities over your gaming hobby. That's fine...that makes you a well-rounded person.
But my question is whether someone wanting to enjoy their hobby with others that have similar priorities really a bad guy? If your club volleyball team goes to tournaments, I assume it's at least a semi-competitive thing. Imagine if there was someone on your team that never practiced, never attempted to get better on their own, and really just didn't care to participate much. Wouldn't that be a little annoying to those of you more engaged in the team?
That wouldn't give you the right to act like an a$$hole toward them. No one has a right to behave like an a$$hole to another person. But wouldn't you maybe say something polite and tactful if it was hindering the fun of those more engaged in the team? And does that really fit the definition of a$$hole behavior?
I'm not saying that's what you're saying...I'm just having a lot of trouble following the logic trains of a lot of people here. I don't know how you can say live and let live and then call the other person a jerk for behaving similarly.
I'd also suggest that if you (saldiven) were teaching a dance class and one or two of your students or even friends decided to buck the system, in otherwords not wear the proper dance attire you'd not be too excited about that either. You've taken much time to polish your profession/hobby, while granted they are paying you to instruct them, I'm sure if you had events that you'd expect them to comply with the guidelines and rules set up for such events.. If they refuse to do so, because they feel uncomfortable, you'd be very dissapointed..
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Post by: Frazzled
But if they are not going to an event, that requires such it wouldn't matter now would it?
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Post by: Dashofpepper
Asmodai wrote:
Seriously though, it's like you have a friend who enjoys shooting bottles off of fence posts. He's buying $75 bottle of champagne for the purpose. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that he can get $3 bottles that suit the purpose just as well.
Maybe he really enjoys seeing the fizz when the champagne bottles explode and will keep shooting them. There's no point arguing with him about it, but there's also nothing wrong with pointing out that alternatives exist.
(Another alternative is VASSAL, you get the full 40K rules, can field whatever army you want, spend no money and no one will complain about your painting.)
You know what another alternative is? Letting your friend shoot $75 bottles of champagne because its his money to spend as he wishes. There's no need for you to look down on him for his choices, or tell him that you don't approve of how he spent his money.
The same applies in 40k. Automatically Appended Next Post: gorgon wrote:
But my question is whether someone wanting to enjoy their hobby with others that have similar priorities really a bad guy? If your club volleyball team goes to tournaments, I assume it's at least a semi-competitive thing. Imagine if there was someone on your team that never practiced, never attempted to get better on their own, and really just didn't care to participate much. Wouldn't that be a little annoying to those of you more engaged in the team?
You use the worst analogies. Volleyball is a team sport. If your TEAMMATE isn't practicing, you have a right to get frustrated or boot them off the team to find a TEAM PLAYER.
Warhammer 40k is NOT a team sport. Its an individual competition. I get to take it at the pace *I* want, and no one has any right to tell me differently. Neither you nor your elitist friends have the right to tell me that I need to find another hobby because I don't prioritize the same that you do with a hobby.
No...you don't necessarily spend more time in 40k than I do. You just choose to focus on a different aspect than I do, and THEN have the balls to tell me that your aspect is better than mine. How about we flip it around so you can taste your own medicine?
Since you like painting so much, maybe you should find a different hobby that doesn't have a wargaming aspect to it? Perhaps canvas painting? Painting sunsets? Finger painting? Something that doesn't involve a competitive activity.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Dashofpepper wrote:Scott-S6 wrote:dashofpepper - you have a point and it's clear that you are 95%game vs 5%modelling in this hobby. If your opponent is 5%game vs 95%modelling then he probably felt the exact same way when he saw your army on the table.
If you want to play outside of a small group of like-minded friends then you need a decently presented army, a variety of lists of various power-levels and the ability to use them. With that you can have a good game with anyone.
My army is painted. Some of it even got done on a commission (Hulksmash here on Dakkdakka) because I was curious to see what it would look like. My point is that I don't care if someone's army is painted or not. I care about spending 2-6 hours of my time having fun. FUN. Not goggling over someone's army, they can take pictures and post them online.
When I play a game against someone and I beat them down because they're not very good, you know what I do? I have an after action review (AAR) with them, and talk about what tactical changes, or army list changes might have helped, what I noticed, and how I think they could improve to fare better next time.
I do *NOT* frown down the end of my nose at their tactical inferiority and suggest that they go play something requiring less brainpower, or demand that they learn how to play before playing me against to prevent me from being bored during a game.
For anyone at all to judge ANYONE else's participation in the hobby is simply unacceptable. Just like a freakin' MMO. We all pay for it, and we can play it any damn way that we want to. Lets say that you and I both spend $25 buying a box of miniatures. We both assembled them and are playing the same game with them. For you to think how you treated your $25 is better than how I treated mine...is none of your business. If a tournament has a painting score built into it ( RTT) then you're welcome to reflect your displeasure with someone's painting scheme on paper, via a score, for the judge.
Short of that, if someone is criticizing someone for lack of paint, or not wanting to play with them, or segregating them out of their group because they think they're better...hammer to the nuts for you.
I just want to point out this bit.
Nobody's saying that you HAVE to bring painted miniatures. Nobody's saying to beat up people with unpainted stuff. They're saying that, if after YEARS of playing you haven't taken the effort to paint, but take the effort to play--it's annoying. There's no real excuse, given the easy access to painting services, painting tutorials, or hell some gaming groups even run painting days in place of game days on some weekends.
And sorry, but the MMO comparison doesn't stand up. It's not a 1v1 thing like Warhammer can be. It's a *group* activity. You won't take someone who has made no effort to learn the fights, get consumables, etc to a raid. You won't take some git who does nothing but type out obnoxious statements in raid chat, constantly, while barely contributing.
So to put it simply, in that case it's you screwing over 24 or 9 other people who've got their junk together to enjoy the game, just because you want to be difficult.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Seems to me the hobby consists of both playing and painting. A painted miniature is a thing of beauty, you don't need to play with it to appreciate the aesthetic value. Most models spend most of their lives sitting around not being played with anyway. A painted miniature isn't diminished by not being played with, many miniatures aren't for playing with, and some really nice conversions will never be used either nor would probably any GD entry.
But I don't think it works the other way around. While the table-top use of a miniature has no impact upon the painting side of the hobby, the playing of a game is affected by the whether an army is painted. A game isn't just about rolling dice, there's the idea of the spectacle. A good player shouldn't mind whether he wins or loses, but in enjoying the game - seeing the armies come to life on the table. Unpainted miniatures don't come to life. They all look the same, a collection of dull grey plastics and metal. The quality of the game suffers without painting just like it does if you don't bother to make nice scenery but rely on boxes of tissues and sauce bottles to make up the terrain. If that's your approach you may as well do away with the miniatures all together.
And then there's the practical side of things. I'd like to know exactly what chapter those plastic space marines are, and be easily able to identify your Death Company among your other Blood Angels units.
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Post by: gorgon
Dashofpepper wrote:You use the worst analogies. Volleyball is a team sport. If your TEAMMATE isn't practicing, you have a right to get frustrated or boot them off the team to find a TEAM PLAYER.
Warhammer 40k is NOT a team sport. Its an individual competition. I get to take it at the pace *I* want, and no one has any right to tell me differently. Neither you nor your elitist friends have the right to tell me that I need to find another hobby because I don't prioritize the same that you do with a hobby.
No...you don't necessarily spend more time in 40k than I do. You just choose to focus on a different aspect than I do, and THEN have the balls to tell me that your aspect is better than mine. How about we flip it around so you can taste your own medicine?
Since you like painting so much, maybe you should find a different hobby that doesn't have a wargaming aspect to it? Perhaps canvas painting? Painting sunsets? Finger painting? Something that doesn't involve a competitive activity.
Wow, that was weird.
First, that post wasn't aimed at you, so I'm not sure why you have your back up about it.
Second, are you sure you quoted the right person? I've made it pretty clear where I stand (which I think is actually fairly middle ground), and I challenge you to find one instance in which I've told anyone to get another hobby. I simply think it's reasonable -- in fact, it's probably human nature -- for people to prefer interacting with others who want the same level of engagement with a given hobby/activity. That goes for people who like playing more than painting and vice versa. That's a completely different statement than "get a new hobby," so again...are you talking to me?
Miniatures wargaming requires social interaction between two people. For that interaction to be enjoyable for both parties, everyone usually has work together and be on the same page in their expectations. It isn't different than a team sport in that respect. If wargaming was a true sport, say tennis -- overseen and rules enforced by an active referee, you might have a point. But it isn't.
I also don't know what your problem is with being civil. For some bizarre reason, you're trying to make this about me, and frankly you don't know anything about me. I've laid out my views more than once, but you've chosen to ignore what I've said and instead spew stuff that probably deserves a mod warning. But hey, have fun with your nerd rage over a topic this inane. LOL.
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Post by: Commisar00
I don't really care about wether my opponent has a painted army or not (for the record I have a fully painted space marine army, Guard army, and a Protectorate of Menoth army) My one problem I see is when I there are lots of proxies or my opponents units have no way of being told apart and get mixed up, such as when I drop a template on a unit and even he can't tell which squad is which. I'm not saying you have to paint but it can help differentiate things.
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Post by: Brother SRM
I used to play a lot more often in highschool, since my friends and I all had a lot more free time. However, it bugged me when I would put heaps of time and effort into an army, and some of my friends would have an unpainted army week after week, showing no progress.
I won't refuse anyone a game if their army is unpainted, but it does irk me when their army never has any paint on it, week after week. I don't care if people detail the bases on their miniatures or not though. It looks nice, but I don't find it mandatory.
So yeah, I'm a bit of an elitist, but I know there are far worse people around.
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Post by: Crazy_Carnifex
This thread sounds like question period.
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Post by: LunaHound
Super , this thread have already yielded the results i was hoping to see. There are clearly 3 types of players here:
Type 1) Gamers:
Most of my friends havent painted their armies and its been 5 years.. To me thats fine, it doesnt hinder my enjoyment of the game because its all about the actual game
Now, I do understand why some dont like playing against unpainted armies. It gives off the vibe that the person is a power gamer and doesnt really care about their models.. they just want to beat you
Type 2) Gaming Hobbiests:
The place I play at accepts peoples armies no matter what state of painting they are in. Most have really basic paint jobs, others are only primed, one guy has had his army for a year and hasn't even primed it.
We dont care in terms of the paint jobs because we are all there to play the game, not get into a story telling experience. Only one guy there is really into LARPing and D&D, and while his stuff is painted, he doesnt go off on people whos stuff is the bare plastic. Sure we make fun of people who dont have their stuff painted, but in a playful way, not a "You dont get your stuff painted you dont play" tone.
Type 3) Painting Elitists :
- Last time I checked painting 40k armies is part of official rules for gaming... you can choose not to its your perrogative as is others to decline to play with you... no need to rant or btch about it just learn to embrace the consequences of your choices.
K , i also see the argument comming from a weird issue. Painters not willing to acknowledge gaming is as essential to others as painting is to themselves.
Also , i have many people claiming what im saying is double standard . Not really , as we dont laugh about how nerdy someone is for spending 10 hour on a model ,
we would expect same basic lvl of respect not to do the same on lack of paint effort. It is not double standard when one out come = you dont get to play because the person complains about lack of painted minis.
You see the problem now?
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Post by: combatmedic
This is going to be one of those questions that will not have a right answer from one person to the next.
One person will say that its part of the game, and if you cant/wont take the time to paint, you shouldn't play because it ruins their experience.
The other person will say they dont have the time/don't want to paint their said armies because thats not why they play, they do it for the fun of the game, and no one should tell them how to handle their army.
Its the wonders of free thought, and there will never be an answer to make everyone happy.
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Post by: Wolfstan
I find it fascinating that there is a mind set that feels that there is something wrong in playing with unpainted figures. People have generally given the impression that the person turning up with an unpainted army is lazy or making excuses. That you should make the effert, other wise move along to a game that is more suitable for your lazy can't be bothered arse.
People have said that they tend to avoid gamers who turn up with unpainted models as it offends their ideas of what the hobby entails. That is sad. Yes it's your choice as people have posted, but it's still sad that you think it, even if you don't say it out loud.
There have been some damn good replies defending unpainted models on the post, many of them much better then I could articulate, but in the end they are probably wasted as I can't see the painted mindset changing their minds seeing how shallow they are. You've managed to implement a class system within a hobby, well done.
Me? I've seen guys turn up with models that are just the legs of walkers or half assembled and the only reason that this bothers me is that it is open to cheating.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Wolfstan wrote:I find it fascinating that there is a mind set that feels that there is something wrong in playing with unpainted figures. People have generally given the impression that the person turning up with an unpainted army is lazy or making excuses. That you should make the effert, other wise move along to a game that is more suitable for your lazy can't be bothered arse.
People have said that they tend to avoid gamers who turn up with unpainted models as it offends their ideas of what the hobby entails. That is sad. Yes it's your choice as people have posted, but it's still sad that you think it, even if you don't say it out loud.
There have been some damn good replies defending unpainted models on the post, many of them much better then I could articulate, but in the end they are probably wasted as I can't see the painted mindset changing their minds seeing how shallow they are. You've managed to implement a class system within a hobby, well done.
Me? I've seen guys turn up with models that are just the legs of walkers or half assembled and the only reason that this bothers me is that it is open to cheating.
Sorry?
The vast majority of the posts defending unpainted models are:
I don't have time to do it with my busy social life.
I don't want to do it because I want the option of reselling an army later.
I just want to game, screw the hobby aspect.
How is that any different than the powergamer elitists who refuse matches against compositions they know they can't beat? Or refuse to game because the mission won't favor them, or who will fudge up the rules in their favor?
They're all EXCUSES.
You can not paint your models for all I care.
But once you've had the same army, for over a year, and you haven't even ATTEMPTED to begin painting?
You need to reexamine your priorities for doing a miniatures game, rather than sitting at home on your 360 or PC.
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Post by: LunaHound
Again , for the people that keep saying its double standard , please keep in mind this:
Its true the mind set is on the opposite of the line .
Its true they dont have to agree , its their choice and preference.
HOWEVER , when it comes down to one side not willing to accept a game due to painting standards , this is where the real problem starts.
Yes / No
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Post by: Kanluwen
LunaHound wrote:
Again , for the people that keep saying its double standard , please keep in mind this:
Its true the mind set is on the opposite of the line .
Its true they dont have to agree , its their choice and preference.
HOWEVER , when it comes down to one side not willing to accept a game due to painting standards , this is where the real problem starts.
Yes / No
And if you're not going to make the effort to paint after someone has neglected to play you, after god knows how long you've had to paint--That's your problem, not theirs.
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Post by: LunaHound
Kanluwen wrote:
And if you're not going to make the effort to paint after someone has neglected to play you, after god knows how long you've had to paint--That's your problem, not theirs.
In other words , you are not willing to respect people's choice of not painting , to the extreme point of not wanting to play against them .
Thats pretty harsh imo. This would be the gaming's equivalent of not wanting to play against proxy / converted / base size difference / wysiwyg .
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Post by: Kanluwen
LunaHound wrote:Kanluwen wrote:
And if you're not going to make the effort to paint after someone has neglected to play you, after god knows how long you've had to paint--That's your problem, not theirs.
In other words , you are not willing to respect people's choice of not painting , to the extreme point of not wanting to play against them .
Thats pretty harsh imo.
I'm not willing to respect a person's lack of effort in a hobby.
I put my time into it, I do what I can to make it enjoyable for both parties.
Can I not expect the same from someone else, or do I have to respect that they're choosing to not painting because of some random excuses?
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Post by: LunaHound
Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not willing to respect a person's lack of effort in a hobby.
I put my time into it, I do what I can to make it enjoyable for both parties.
Can I not expect the same from someone else, or do I have to respect that they're choosing to not painting because of some random excuses?
Like i said many times already , this type falls into the unwillingness to accept warhammer is also a game to others , not a hobby.
You might also want to read i have given reasons someone might have for not wanting to paint.
and these are REAL issues not excuses . ( maybe you missed the post )
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Post by: Kanluwen
This would be the gaming's equivalent of not wanting to play against proxy / converted / base size difference / wysiwyg .
And since you added that in since my post, I'm going to reply to it really quicklike.
If it's someone's first game, or they're testing out a new army?
I'm fine with a proxy army.
If it's someone's heavily converted, counts as Deathwing, Iron Hands Terminator Company, with everything explained before hand?
I'm fine with it.
If it's a base size difference that favors you, and seems to be a sneaky underhanded attempt to get an edge? I'm usually against that.
If you genuinely don't have the base? That's fine.
And why wouldn't you be at least ATTEMPTING WYSIWYG? I'm sure there's a few exclusions that could be made, or substitutes that are easily explainable before deployment or the game starting.
Most people are okay with that.
It's when it goes into the realm of unassembled proxy armies where things just magically keep changing that people have issues. Automatically Appended Next Post: LunaHound wrote:Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not willing to respect a person's lack of effort in a hobby.
I put my time into it, I do what I can to make it enjoyable for both parties.
Can I not expect the same from someone else, or do I have to respect that they're choosing to not painting because of some random excuses?
Like i said many times already , this type falls into the unwillingness to accept warhammer is also a game to others , not a hobby.
You might also want to read i have given reasons someone might have for not wanting to paint.
and these are REAL issues not excuses . ( maybe you missed the post )
Sorry, but Warhammer IS a hobby. Games are hobbies, Luna. Paintball's a hobby, console gaming is a hobby, MMOs are hobbies.
Anything you're doing for fun/enjoyment without being paid, with your own free time is a hobby.
And yeah. I read your reasons for not wanting to paint.
Getting more gaming time, wanting to sell the army later, etc.
Those are excuses, pure and simple. There are plenty of people with multiple armies, and doing Warhammer in college, while also working part time jobs to pay for it and their courses. There are plenty of people who work full-time with families that can find the time to paint AND game.
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Post by: LunaHound
Kanluwen wrote:This would be the gaming's equivalent of not wanting to play against proxy / converted / base size difference / wysiwyg .
And since you added that in since my post, I'm going to reply to it really quicklike.
If it's someone's first game, or they're testing out a new army?
I'm fine with a proxy army.
If it's someone's heavily converted, counts as Deathwing, Iron Hands Terminator Company, with everything explained before hand?
I'm fine with it.
If it's a base size difference that favors you, and seems to be a sneaky underhanded attempt to get an edge? I'm usually against that.
If you genuinely don't have the base? That's fine.
And why wouldn't you be at least ATTEMPTING WYSIWYG? I'm sure there's a few exclusions that could be made, or substitutes that are easily explainable before deployment or the game starting.
Most people are okay with that.
It's when it goes into the realm of unassembled proxy armies where things just magically keep changing that people have issues.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LunaHound wrote:Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not willing to respect a person's lack of effort in a hobby.
I put my time into it, I do what I can to make it enjoyable for both parties.
Can I not expect the same from someone else, or do I have to respect that they're choosing to not painting because of some random excuses?
Like i said many times already , this type falls into the unwillingness to accept warhammer is also a game to others , not a hobby.
You might also want to read i have given reasons someone might have for not wanting to paint.
and these are REAL issues not excuses . ( maybe you missed the post )
Sorry, but Warhammer IS a hobby. Games are hobbies, Luna. Paintball's a hobby, console gaming is a hobby, MMOs are hobbies.
Anything you're doing for fun/enjoyment without being paid, with your own free time is a hobby.
And yeah. I read your reasons for not wanting to paint.
Getting more gaming time, wanting to sell the army later, etc.
Those are excuses, pure and simple. There are plenty of people with multiple armies, and doing Warhammer in college, while also working part time jobs to pay for it and their courses. There are plenty of people who work full-time with families that can find the time to paint AND game.
Again , why do you expect a gamer to care about your efforts in converting ? to the degree of changing wysiwyg .
Im not saying thats right mind set to have , however im also saying your mind set isnt nice either.
The whole purpose of what i want to come across is , i want there to be a happy medium where everyone can play without these extra preference / standards .
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Post by: Saldiven
gorgon wrote:
Okay, let me play devil's advocate here.
All the things I've highlighted in bold are hobbies/activities you choose to pursue, right? They're not commitments like a family or job. So those are your leisure time activities...and you're simply prioritizing those leisure time activities over your gaming hobby. That's fine...that makes you a well-rounded person.
But my question is whether someone wanting to enjoy their hobby with others that have similar priorities really a bad guy? If your club volleyball team goes to tournaments, I assume it's at least a semi-competitive thing. Imagine if there was someone on your team that never practiced, never attempted to get better on their own, and really just didn't care to participate much. Wouldn't that be a little annoying to those of you more engaged in the team?
That wouldn't give you the right to act like an a$$hole toward them. No one has a right to behave like an a$$hole to another person. But wouldn't you maybe say something polite and tactful if it was hindering the fun of those more engaged in the team? And does that really fit the definition of a$$hole behavior?
I'm not saying that's what you're saying...I'm just having a lot of trouble following the logic trains of a lot of people here. I don't know how you can say live and let live and then call the other person a jerk for behaving similarly.
I actually believe that I agree with you. Yes, I do prioritize the things I do based upon things I have to do and things I want to do. The things I have to do come first, and the things I want to do are prioritized by how much I enjoy them.
There is an important difference between someone on my v-ball team not practicing and someone I play a pickup game of 40K not having a painted army. His painted army does not negatively impact my ability to play to my highest potential. Now, if he were a team-mate on a 40K team tourney, that would be different.
The entire point I was trying to make is that I'm not a bad person or bad gamer because I don't put all aspects of the 40K "hobby" above everything else I like to do in my life. The fact that I absolutely loathe painting miniatures does not somehow make a painter superior to me.
I'm a fairly good player and do well in tournaments. I've even won a few. Despite this, I don't look down upon, make fun of, or otherwise deride players who I beat. Honestly, when I really beat someone bad, I feel bad about it, because I want them to have a good time, too. Yes, I have painted armies that I use for tournaments, but I hated every minute of painting them so much that I will never give someone crap for not having a painted army to play against me.
I think that people forget that the entire purpose of an activity like 40K is a chance to socialize with people and have a good time. What constitutes fun for one person isn't necessarily fun for the other guy. Live and let live. Do unto others.... All that stuff.
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Post by: LunaHound
@Kanluwen , i also realize you and i will never agree on this. But its fine , but please look at so many type 2 players in this thread , and perhaps consider alittle in what they think?
Because it really is a shame to miss games due to lack of paint job.
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Post by: Saldiven
Kanluwen wrote:
Nobody's saying that you HAVE to bring painted miniatures. Nobody's saying to beat up people with unpainted stuff. They're saying that, if after YEARS of playing you haven't taken the effort to paint, but take the effort to play--it's annoying. There's no real excuse, given the easy access to painting services, painting tutorials, or hell some gaming groups even run painting days in place of game days on some weekends.
Why? (To the bolded part)
So someone else chooses to not paint their minis. Why do you care? They aren't your minis, so it's no skin off your teeth.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Saldiven wrote:Kanluwen wrote:
Nobody's saying that you HAVE to bring painted miniatures. Nobody's saying to beat up people with unpainted stuff. They're saying that, if after YEARS of playing you haven't taken the effort to paint, but take the effort to play--it's annoying. There's no real excuse, given the easy access to painting services, painting tutorials, or hell some gaming groups even run painting days in place of game days on some weekends.
Why? (To the bolded part)
So someone else chooses to not paint their minis. Why do you care? They aren't your minis, so it's no skin off your teeth.
Honestly, it's just annoying to me in that I've taken the time and effort to paint my stuff--and then I have to play against someone who's taken none whatsoever to improve their own stuff.
I'm willing to let it slide in some cases, like if it's their first game or they've got a really hectic job situation(one of the guys who I used to game with was a police officer, alongside of being in the National Guard...suffice to say, he didn't have much time to paint), or if they've just started up a brand new army.
But there comes a point where it just frustrates me to no end that they haven't even tried.
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Post by: studderingdave
wow, what a thread.
i paint, alot. mostly speed painting, but i have been doing some skill stuff to learn new things.
bottom line for me? you dont wanna paint your stuff? whatever. thats you, i have more spare time then most, im not hating on ya.
just dont get mad at me when i ding ya for painting in a tourney. i hate that, people who dont embrace the painting aspect of the game then get pissed when they get hit for no paint at an event.
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Post by: LunaHound
Kanluwen wrote:
I'm willing to let it slide in some cases, like if it's their first game or they've got a really hectic job situation(one of the guys who I used to game with was a police officer, alongside of being in the National Guard...suffice to say, he didn't have much time to paint), or if they've just started up a brand new army.
But there comes a point where it just frustrates me to no end that they haven't even tried.
Can you address this issue so i can atleast understand your view on it.
a) some people cant visualize how the army plays by simply reading the codex . they have to physically play it.
b) most people dont allow proxy for entire armies , thus A: they have to purchase the army for the sake of even trying it.
c) if they dont even know whether they'll like the army or not , to hastily paint the army just to satisfy you , and at the end of the day the current army
is totally different than what they envisioned , then what?
d) they just totally ruined the resale value of their army to satisfy your preference.
Again , i must repeat , both side have preference and are entitled to it. But when you come down to this ultimate reality, there is more at stake then what you think.
Losing $400 per army vs make your picky opponent happy .
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Post by: Saldiven
Kanluwen wrote:Saldiven wrote:Kanluwen wrote:
Nobody's saying that you HAVE to bring painted miniatures. Nobody's saying to beat up people with unpainted stuff. They're saying that, if after YEARS of playing you haven't taken the effort to paint, but take the effort to play--it's annoying. There's no real excuse, given the easy access to painting services, painting tutorials, or hell some gaming groups even run painting days in place of game days on some weekends.
Why? (To the bolded part)
So someone else chooses to not paint their minis. Why do you care? They aren't your minis, so it's no skin off your teeth.
Honestly, it's just annoying to me in that I've taken the time and effort to paint my stuff--and then I have to play against someone who's taken none whatsoever to improve their own stuff.
I'm willing to let it slide in some cases, like if it's their first game or they've got a really hectic job situation(one of the guys who I used to game with was a police officer, alongside of being in the National Guard...suffice to say, he didn't have much time to paint), or if they've just started up a brand new army.
But there comes a point where it just frustrates me to no end that they haven't even tried.
Again, why do you care. You took the time and effort to paint your minis because that is important to you, and (hopefully) you actually enjoy the process of painting and the product that results.
But that's on you. That's your army.
If I freaking hate painting (which I do) and cannot afford to pay someone to paint them for me (which I can't), why does it make a difference to you?
The presence or lack of paint on their minis neither changes their ability as a gamer nor their quality as a person/opponent.
Yes, a person definitely has the right to decide not to play someone for any reason, including the fact that they don't like to play against unpainted armies. That's fine. The point I (and I believe Luna) am trying to make is that the "painting elite" are not somehow superior to the non-painters. When someone doesn't paint their minis, it is not evidence of laziness or being a power gamer. It's just likely that they don't like painting, don't enjoy it, and don't want to do it just to satisfy some guy down at the FLGS.
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Post by: LunaHound
Kanluwen wrote:
Honestly, it's just annoying to me in that I've taken the time and effort to paint my stuff--and then I have to play against someone who's taken none whatsoever to improve their own stuff.
That preference and effort is your own out come , you get satisfaction from your own completed painted army.
Why are you entitled to enforce this effort you spent onto someone else? Is your existence so great that in order to confirm this self effort
you must see it been reflected into your opponent's army?
心胸狹窄
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
I guess it depends on how you view the game.
I think a game between players is a non-verbal contract. The contract essentially states 'I know I can't have fun without your mutual participation and you rely on me in the same fashion. So lets work through game problems and try to have fun'. I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with that.
Given that, we are involved in a hobby where a high majority of players paint/model. The parent company that pushes the game system also pushes the model aspect of the hobby (highly). So, you can't be upset when another player enjoys games against painted armies. It's a part of the hobby and by showing up with your plastic blob, you've already possibly encroached on that above mentioned contract. Against other players who also play with gray plastic? Well who the hell cares then? Play.
However, if you refuse to paint your miniatures in a hobby that encourages/sales modeling.....you can't justify getting angry when people avoid playing you. Or when you play in tournaments that reward it. On a personal note (Not used for argument, just my opinion), it boggles my mind that people would spend the cash GW demands for their models....but not paint them. Why not just use boxes of appropriate size marked "Land Raider"?
/Ejects from thread
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Post by: Oldgrue
LunaHound wrote:... it really is a shame to miss games due to lack of paint job.
No, its not. Its no more a shame than declining a game due to hygiene, or the color of someone's shirt. You chose not to play a game with someone who chose not to paint.
If you're not painting in your own house, or club environment, more power to you. Have a blast. If you're in your FLGS that's a touch different. If they tolerate that, its their business. On the flip side of that, if the FLGS, gaming club, what have you, holds an expectation of some painting progress to a sensible goal...3 colors for example (primer, wash, and metal of some sort comes to mind) then bucking the convention doesn't do anything more than reflect a lack of respect.
I see it as a show of respect to the host, since its nice to look over and see people playing with painted stuff. It helps a customer see a painted army and the FLGS gets a chance to make another sale. Paint also makes things easier for the opponent to identify separate units and gives them something nicer to look at than reminders of the inevitable heap of unpainted product in their workspace. Imagine for a moment an unpainted guard army. Cheating or simply too busy to paint - you decide.
In the time it took to make this discussion, defend positions, and counter them LunaHound could have primed a unit, given it a quick wash, and slapped another color on(but chose not to). Painted, drama avoided with a minimum of effort...or another smaller game could have been played. I'm frustrated that I (by proxy) received an accusation of elitism for what I see as a show of respect.
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Post by: LunaHound
Oldgrue wrote:
In the time it took to make this discussion, defend positions, and counter them LunaHound could have primed a unit, given it a quick wash, and slapped another color on(but chose not to). Painted, drama avoided with a minimum of effort...or another smaller game could have been played. I'm frustrated that I (by proxy) received an accusation of elitism for what I see as a show of respect.
K , for the very last time , dont patronize me , check my gallery, I-DO-PAINT . You guys truly think this thread is drama? No , its real incidents that happens to people.
Drama is only created by people that chose to . You know its really really funny . I'll repeat this again " its incredible . you think because i created this thread, this situation is related to me personally?"
thats so far from the truth . Or is it my painting is so awful that you think its worse then primed + slapping wash on?
And please answer this i asked a few times already :
Can you address this issue so i can atleast understand your view on it.
a) some people cant visualize how the army plays by simply reading the codex . they have to physically play it.
b) most people dont allow proxy for entire armies , thus A: they have to purchase the army for the sake of even trying it.
c) if they dont even know whether they'll like the army or not , to hastily paint the army just to satisfy you , and at the end of the day the current army
is totally different than what they envisioned , then what?
d) they just totally ruined the resale value of their army to satisfy your preference.
Again , i must repeat , both side have preference and are entitled to it. But when you come down to this ultimate reality, there is more at stake then what you think.
Losing $400 per army vs make your picky opponent happy .
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Post by: Wayfarer
Here is a key issue I think people are missing. If player A likes to play warhammer and enjoys it regardless of painting then player A will be able to enjoy his free time playing a game with and against armies painted or not. If player B likes to play warhammer with painted armies because it is more scenimatic and aestheticly pleasing then they will get the most enjoyment out of playing armies that are painted.
Is it anyones right to deny these individuals the freedom to spend their free time doing what is most enjoyable to them?
If player B wants to only play painted armies because it is far more enjoyable to them why is it that some people claim they are elitists? Maybe they can only play one game a week. Is it your right to tell them they can't enjoy their free time? If they politely avoid playing the players with unpainted armies and aren't rude about it, who are you to judge them and call them elistists?
I think many Player A type people seem to think that because they don't care about painting and will enjoy a game of bare plastic as much as painted that if they get turned down from a game offer it's some sort of elitism. It isn't player A's right to force player B to play a game they will less than likely enjoy just to feel a little bit better emotionally.
Player A's in this thread keep trying to get player B's to see it there way but I don't think any of you have bothered to see it player B's way. It cuts both ways and you should try and remember that other people don't have to spend their time doing something unenjoyable just because you think that the alternative is elitism.
This of course depends on people not being rude about it. Anyone who honestly gives someone crap for having bare plastic has some problems.
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Post by: LunaHound
Wayfarer wrote:Here is a key issue I think people are missing. If player A likes to play warhammer and enjoys it regardless of painting then player A will be able to enjoy his free time playing a game with and against armies painted or not. If player B likes to play warhammer with painted armies because it is more scenimatic and aestheticly pleasing then they will get the most enjoyment out of playing armies that are painted.
Is it anyones right to deny these individuals the freedom to spend their free time doing what is most enjoyable to them?
If player B wants to only play painted armies because it is far more enjoyable to them why is it that some people claim they are elitists? Maybe they can only play one game a week. Is it your right to tell them they can't enjoy their free time? If they politely avoid playing the players with unpainted armies and aren't rude about it, who are you to judge them and call them elistists?
I think many Player A type people seem to think that because they don't care about painting and will enjoy a game of bare plastic as much as painted that if they get turned down from a game offer it's some sort of elitism. It isn't player A's right to force player B to play a game they will less than likely enjoy just to feel a little bit better emotionally.
Player A's in this thread keep trying to get player B's to see it there way but I don't think any of you have bothered to see it player B's way. It cuts both ways and you should try and remember that other people don't have to spend their time doing something unenjoyable just because you think that the alternative is elitism.
This of course depends on people not being rude about it. Anyone who honestly gives someone crap for having bare plastic has some problems.
Thank you , this is by far the best Type 2 player response.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Wolfstan wrote:There have been some damn good replies defending unpainted models on the post, many of them much better then I could articulate, but in the end they are probably wasted as I can't see the painted mindset changing their minds seeing how shallow they are. You've managed to implement a class system within a hobby, well done.
What does create a class system in the gaming side of the hobby is the cost of things. All the most powerful vehicles and characters are the most expensive which creates a ceiling to those with less money, some people have to manage with the same army all the time, others can choose from a full range and tailor their army for every battle, and buy every other codex as well if they wish. GW create that effect themselves through their pricing structure.
But a class system created on the basis of painting? Rubbish. Painting the miniatures is not beyond a person's control unlike their finances. Loads of people struggle to find the time to paint their figures, but if they make no progress month after month then they're not making the effort. Some peopel argue they do other things. Well yes, that's true enough. But what happens when a person has multiple interests and hobbies is that they find they've not got the time to invest fully in them all and in this case it would seem the painting side is being dispensed so that they can play on their X-box, or go horse riding or playing golf or watching TV. It's still a matter of choice where to spend your time so it's entirely your choice to turn up with unpainted minis.
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Post by: Major Malfunction
Personally I have mixed feelings on the issue.
On the one hand, I would never turn down a FLGS game offer just because the person had an unpainted army. Everyone has to start somewhere and everyone is different distances along in their hobby travels.
On the other hand, it's fun to play with a painted army. The grand spectacle of two armies painted to at least a tabletop standard is something to behold. It's more visually pleasing.
Tournaments are (at least in theory) an exploration of all aspects of the hobby and I appreciate the effort people put into their armies. Please try to paint your army. If the rules specify that no unpainted models can be used, don't bitch and fuss or namecall... paint your gak or don't go.
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Post by: Asmodai
Seriously, the time argument is a non-starter.
Let's take an 1850 Blood Angels army for example (this also works for other Space Marines, Necrons, Tau, Tyranids, Eldar, etc.).
Let's say the army is 60 models including a few tanks.
Step 1:
Spray paint the model red. (Time: 1 hour, easily divided into 15 minute chunks while you wait for the paint to dry anyway.)
Step 2:
Dunk the models in red wash or Devlan Mud, you'll need to use a large tank brush to get it on your tanks. (Time: 1 - 2 hours)
Step 3:
Paint the Bolters black, the eyes green and add a few splashes of metal. Paint the tank tracks black and drybrush some metal on them. (Time: 3 - 4 hours).
It takes the same amount of time as 1-2 games to get your army full painted to a table-top standard. This level of effort is all that anyone ever expect other players to make.
My own painting is a lot more intricate and time-consuming, but that's because I enjoy taking the time. If you hate painting, it's still worth investing a couple hours of your time to make the game that much more visually appealing and interesting.
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Post by: Crazy_Carnifex
Agree. It is not more fun to play an opponent with a painted army than it is to face a non painted army, but it is more interesting.
That being said, a lot of the non-painting party seem to have the attitude of "Woohoo! Revolt againts oppressive societal norms!" when it comes to this thread.
Incidentaly, how long do you think it will take for mods to lock this thread?
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
I don't think refusing to play someone on the grounds that they refuse to paint their army is any more unreasonable than refusing to play someone who refuses to learn the rules well.
Some people prefer the spectacle of two well-painted armies battling over nice terrain to a tactical/strategic exercise.
Calling them "elitist" and comparing yourself to African-Americans discriminated against during the Jim Crow era (for some reason) isn't really justified.
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Post by: wittzo
Kanluwen wrote:Any hobby has a natural set of "rules" that come with it.
You don't expect someone who plays paintball regularly to not do the research and get a decent gun, or someone whose hobby is working on cars to not do any form of research.
The thing with those sports is..if someone's following the safety regs they can use a cheap POS marker or show up in a Yugo, but their game is going to suffer from using inferior components and they'll lose a lot due to malfunctions until they wise up and invest time and money in better gear.
In this game, an unpainted miniature isn't going to throw the game unless they count painting into the points you earn. If you're a sharp player, you can still place high based on your ability. You won't really suffer from having a shoddy looking army.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Leotilt wrote:Wow a lot of childish mindsets in this thread.
You guys know that it is ok for other people to spend there money how they want and play a game how they want to play. If someone does not want to paint but enjoys playing warhams then that is cool, no really it is, he is ok to do that without being wierd just because he does not view the world through the same eyes that you do.
Enjoying the Hobby in two different ways is ALSO fine, and the fact that someone would be willing to share their experience in painting (and gaming for that matter) with another players is fantastic; diversity has a lot to offer us as people. The fact remains that you as an individual are allowed to make decisions that effect how you play you particular hobby with other people. If I don't want to play an unpainted army after 5 or 6 games against it, I would call that totally reasonable and fair; I have most definitely tried to help the other player enjoy the part of the hobby that I wish to take a part in.
"Note"
Mind-games on the internet don't tend to go nowhere but arguments, so calling EVERYONE out on a certain "side" is really unnecessary. Picking on specific people is also unnecessary and is petty on top of it. We all have our opinions and we are entitled to them as long as we are respectful about doing so. Respect is quite a universal trait; perhaps one culture jumps through a hoop, and the other jumps over a bush, but the end result equates the same thing.
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Post by: Oldgrue
LunaHound wrote:
Or is it my painting is so awful that you think its worse then primed + slapping wash on?
Now we've both ruffled each other's feathers on accident and I apologize.
I was trying to demonstrate that for all the time spent arguing the position, any person could sling just a little paint.
To clarify my position:
A) This seems strange to me that someone can't read a stat block and understand the general principles of a unit, thus by extension the army. I read tech manuals for a living, so I can only accept this at face value.
B) Proxied armies are for friends, borrowed armies are for pickup games...or find an opponent who'll let you test drive a proxy. Asking is a precursor to permission.
C) So someone decided to buy an army whole cloth to test it out because they can't do a little due diligence (or can't comprehend) , and can't ask to borrow/test drive/ proxy... Seems alien to me.
D) Resale value? This isn't a car. Its a bloody game. A person getting into a game with an eye to resale value has unrealistic expectations. Clothes, books, tableware, and furniture are not purchased for resale value. Who in their right mind buys for resale value?
As I see it these are excuses for mediocrity. (A) seems to be having issues with reading comprehension. (B) is stubborn or prideful (C) is impulsive (maybe young) and (D) is unrealistic. Anyone who cites all of these seems to have just a bit of cognitive dissonance going on. Forgive me if I'm being unreasonable in considering bucking a social convention and being offended by the response is more than a little childish.
Quick edit:
其粗魯發表意見其他語言。發揮公平
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Post by: wittzo
Back when I was in the SCA, everyone tried their best to make campsites look "period" because a lot of people took a lot of time and effort and money so they could spend the weekend and pretend they were in the Middle Ages. You would believe you were there and then all of a sudden, you see an igloo cooler or someone playing on a notebook and the illusion was ruined.
This game is sort of the same way, we want to imagine there are two armies in a war torn future fighting for their lives and then someone brings in a Lego truck or a squad of gray albinos to mix in with their allie's 'Eavy Metal painted army and it throws it off and it's just a game again..we've all done it so we can try something out without wasting the time and money buying and painting a unit that will suck.
What we have to do is motivate each other to paint and build, not run off newer players or people that think they're unskilled at it. My group helps each other all the time. One guy is a whiz at detailing tanks to make them look like they just came in out of a prolonged campaign, but he can't paint tanks worth a darn, so I've painted more than a few of his tanks for him. We've got a guy who can sculpt as good as someone from Forgeworld, but he needs encouragement in painting, so the better painters give him tips. They're all whizzes at playing and tactics, so they give me hints (I'm pretty scatterbrained, it's all up to the luck of the dice for me, and the deal I did with the devil to make my scatter die not scatter so much. )
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Post by: The Defenestrator
Wayfarer has a good handle on it. Painters have no right to force others to paint, just as they have no right to force painters to play unpainted armies. It's hypocritical to demand the right to do or not do what you like, while crying foul if someone exercises a similar right.
Wolfstan wrote:You've managed to implement a class system within a hobby, well done.
I thank you sir, for the epic lulz. I'm sorry to hear you have such a persecution complex, but I think you take the issue far more seriously than the rest of us.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
combatmedic wrote:You know what. I blame Luna for starting this thread and making everyone yell at each other.
YOUR RUINING THIS FAMILY LUNA.
Oh.... diggity-damn.
"Note"
If you really want to play with someone and they appreciate your painting enough to let you take a stab at their army, offer the opportunity. Some might have the time to finish your army (with skill) in under a day. You go over to their house, drink some beer, have some BBQ, and they slap 3 colors and some wash on your minis. Sure it may be wishful thinking some of the time, but if you pay for the supplies, I would think you could find a friend or two willing to help you out.
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Post by: Vengis
Asmodai wrote:
It takes the same amount of time as 1-2 games to get your army full painted to a table-top standard. This level of effort is all that anyone ever expect other players to make.
What if time constraints means that you have a choice of painting, or playing? I know I'd rather be playing.
Also, who's table top standard are we talking about?
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Post by: grizgrin
Scott-S6 wrote:grizgrin wrote:Lord Manimal wrote:....It's not elitism when people call you out for "not having time" it's just B.S. It's like saying "I own the moon."
You have a busy schedule by the sound of it. You are also extremely motivated to do certain things in your life. And yet it is so hard for you to accept that others possibly are motivated to play, but could care less about painting? You can sit there and call BS. Congratulations, you win 7 internets.
He's not - he's pointing out that the excuse-makers are exactly that.
There are two types of players that don't paint:
a) the ones that have absolutely no interest in doing so - they are only interested in playing.
b) the ones that can't be bothered.
A lot of the people that claim to be group a) are actually group b) but aren't admitting it.
There are two types of players that don't paint:
a) the ones that have absolutely no interest in doing so - they are only interested in playing.
b) the ones that can't be bothered.
A lot of the people that claim to be group a) are actually group b) but aren't admitting it.
For example, Wolfstan objects to using pogs instead of models (so clearly finds the asthetics of the model to be part of the game) but doesn't paint. Which group is he in? On that subject, would he care to answer the question that I posed him?
I cannot and willnot speak for Wolfstan, but really what's the difference between youre type A's and B's? Maybe this is a "common language barrier" problem (probably, because it certainly sounds semantic to me), but "absolutely no interest" sounds precisely the same as "can't be bothered" to me. I was raised "if you slept last night, then you had time to take care of XYZ.", so to me having the time to do ANYTHING at all is all a matter of whether you have motivation to do it or not. Simple. Either people have the motivation to paint to level whatever because it means that much to them, or they do not have the motivation to paint to level whatever (or at all) because it means that little to them. What's the difference in your A and B? If you have absolutely no interest, then you cannot be bothered. They sound the same.
Lord Manimal wrote:I dunno. I just figure that if you just wanted to play a tactical game without fancy armies or peices then you should be playing board games like Tide of Iron, Battlelore, Memoir 44, Battlecry; the list goes on and on. That is the section of the gaming universe reserved for players that just like the "tactical" aspect. As was mentioned earlier, there are far better rulesets out there for sci-fi battles that can be done with pen and paper or cardboard chips. You didn't get into this hobby because of the glowing, error free and highly playtested ruleset - at least be honest with yourselves on this point. You got into it because of the cool models, and the well painted impressive armies on the game tables that were painstaking painted by the players of this HOBBY. Not game. HOBBY.
You want a game, go pick up a copy of Monopoly, and have good ole fashioned family fun with your plain plastic bits; no one at the Monopoly tournament will expect them to be painted and you can focus on the game itself rather than be distracted by people griping about your untrimmed houses. I'm really surprised this argument is still going on. There are games, and there are hobbys. It's pretty clear which side of the fence the current rendition of 40K is in.
You make a ton of assumptions that (I would guess) are defined so narrowly by your own experiences. You "just figure" that people have had access to additional games (which admittedly are fairly common but I will bet there are many here who have never seen them in the "flesh"), have had what they deem to be appropriate time to branch out to other games, or are interested in the game as anything other than a social outlet (IE: they just do it because their buddies do it), or any other of a million reasons that people get into this hobby. Your "figure"ing assumes quite a bit of prior knowledge about the game, AND it's entire industry, AND the whole reason the individual is looking at the game in the first place. And yes, to some of us it is a game. GW can call it a hobby or a Little Red COrvette if it wants to, but in this multifaceted offering that GW has presented us with, some of us only partake of the portions we find of merit, of interest; basically "worth it" to us as individuals.
Just because you are extremely motivated in all these things, dont expect the rest of the world to share that same binary approach to life. Not trying to be a jerk, but just warning you that you will be very disappointed because the rest of the world doesnt necessarily work that way. Not everyone takes an "all or nothing" approach to their past times.
You are right. There are games, and there are hobbys. And some of us dont define our perceptions and participation in such things merely by what we are told.
Heck, even in your muscle car project, you find people who are only interested in certain aspects. Do you not have people who only paint the cars? Do you not have people who only work on engines? Do some of these people really not care about other aspects because their lives are full "enough" (by the only definition that matters; their own) with what they have chosen to pursue?
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Post by: Reaver83
You don't want to play against person X for whatever reason fine, you play person Y
As Person Z you can't play persone X for some reason so you play person Y.
Congrats to person Y playing everyone,
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Post by: Sidstyler
I say if my unpainted army offends you so damn much, then why don't you paint them for me and spare yourself the unbearable pain of seeing them? This would be a free service as well, since you're doing this to benefit yourself more than me (and obviously I can't afford to commission someone to paint it or else I'd have it done already, yeah?).
I just never understood the "YOU'RE RUINING THE CINEMATIC EXPERIENCE FOR ME!!!1" argument all that much. If that were true then I don't know how you can stand to make it through a game without live fire coming out of the barrels of all your models guns, sound effects, or an epic orchestral soundtrack playing in the background constantly. If you want to lose yourself and literally feel like you're there, then plastic models seem like a horrible way to go about doing it, it sounds to me like you'd be more interested in PC or console gaming with first-person shooters. Or LARPing.
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Post by: darkkt
As long as you cut the bits off the sprue, and put them together (magnets, glue, blu tak, spit), Id play your unpainted army.
But... I recommend painting, its fun!
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Post by: Kanluwen
LunaHound wrote:Kanluwen wrote:
I'm willing to let it slide in some cases, like if it's their first game or they've got a really hectic job situation(one of the guys who I used to game with was a police officer, alongside of being in the National Guard...suffice to say, he didn't have much time to paint), or if they've just started up a brand new army.
But there comes a point where it just frustrates me to no end that they haven't even tried.
Can you address this issue so i can atleast understand your view on it.
a) some people cant visualize how the army plays by simply reading the codex . they have to physically play it.
b) most people dont allow proxy for entire armies , thus A: they have to purchase the army for the sake of even trying it.
c) if they dont even know whether they'll like the army or not , to hastily paint the army just to satisfy you , and at the end of the day the current army
is totally different than what they envisioned , then what?
d) they just totally ruined the resale value of their army to satisfy your preference.
Again , i must repeat , both side have preference and are entitled to it. But when you come down to this ultimate reality, there is more at stake then what you think.
Losing $400 per army vs make your picky opponent happy .
Sorry?
Did you not even read the post you're quoting?
If it's a first game for someone who's just getting in, someone with a ridiculously busy work schedule that CANNOT help it, or they're starting a brand new army--
I'm fine with it and let it slide.
I have no problems with someone doing a proxy Wood Elf army using their Chaos Warriors, because they want to try it out before they buy it. So long as they have the same amount of miniatures as the army they want to try out.
If they continue showing up with that proxy army, and make no effort to get the models for it, then I have a problem.
Are you starting to understand my stance?
So long as you make SOME FORM OF EFFORT along the way, I am okay with you.
If you just continue with the "I don't have the time/money/effort" stance, I have a problem.
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Post by: Redbeard
Dashofpepper wrote:
Warhammer 40k is NOT a team sport. Its an individual competition.
Painting is an individual activity, not a competition. Playing is not an individual activity, you do it with someone else. If you can increase your opponent's enjoyment of your time together, isn't that a good thing?
LunaHound wrote:
Why are you entitled to enforce this effort you spent onto someone else? Is your existence so great that in order to confirm this self effort you must see it been reflected into your opponent's army?
Wow, that's misunderstood. If my opponent has a painted army, I'm going to have a much more enjoyable time gaming with them than if it isn't. I want to enjoy my time gaming. Therefore, I hope that my opponent's will paint their armies. I'm not going to refuse to play against someone who hasn't done so, but if they're part of my social group, I will (as will other's in our club) certainly mock the unpainted army. Peer pressure can be a good thing. And, if I am looking for a pickup game, I'll always choose to play someone who made some effort to paint their army over someone who did not.
See, if I want to play a strategy game, I can always play chess. Miniature games are more than that. No one gives a rats ass if you're the best 40k player in the world. It's a dice game, and there's too much luck involved to really make this distinction. On the other hand, a chess Grandmaster will get respect worldwide, even from many non chess players. So, "testing your skill" at 40k is, in the greater scope of things, really a pretty silly thing to do.
No, I play 40k because it's immersive. My army is a reflection of me. I choose the conversions. I choose the colours. I choose the composition. I base it on thousands of pages of backstory. It's more than just a handful of models sloppily glued together and thrown on the table. And, while I recognize that people do just enjoy playing, when I face an unpainted army, I expect to play a game against someone who cares for nothing but winning. When I play against a painted army, even one that isn't stunning, I know that my opponent is also looking for the immersion. They're making the effort to have their pieces exist in a miniature world and fit in.
I dunno, it's hard to explain, I'm probably not doing a great job of it.
wittzo wrote:
This game is sort of the same way, we want to imagine there are two armies in a war torn future fighting for their lives and then someone brings in a Lego truck or a squad of gray albinos to mix in with their allie's 'Eavy Metal painted army and it throws it off and it's just a game again..we've all done it so we can try something out without wasting the time and money buying and painting a unit that will suck.
...
What we have to do is motivate each other to paint and build, not run off newer players or people that think they're unskilled at it.
Wittzo gets it...
I took a ride out to the Chicago bunker tonight, and found a pick-up game, where my Tzeentch daemons faced off against Miggidy Mack's Grey Knights. Both armies were fully painted, and we had a bunch of people end up watching the game as a result. It's just more fun that way, what more can I say?
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Post by: Oldgrue
Sidstyler wrote:I say if my unpainted army offends you so damn much, then why don't you paint them for me ... This would be a free service as well
Or, I can choose not to associate with you. It works fine this way between myself and PETA. Maybe there's some good folks at PETA, but I'll never know because I'm not interested in their requirements for a middle ground and vice versa.
Fair disclosure: PETA bugs me. I think its because vegans and beer don't always mix
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Post by: LunaHound
Kanluwen wrote:
Sorry?
Did you not even read the post you're quoting?
If it's a first game for someone who's just getting in, someone with a ridiculously busy work schedule that CANNOT help it, or they're starting a brand new army--
I'm fine with it and let it slide.
I have no problems with someone doing a proxy Wood Elf army using their Chaos Warriors, because they want to try it out before they buy it. So long as they have the same amount of miniatures as the army they want to try out.
If they continue showing up with that proxy army, and make no effort to get the models for it, then I have a problem.
Are you starting to understand my stance?
So long as you make SOME FORM OF EFFORT along the way, I am okay with you.
If you just continue with the "I don't have the time/money/effort" stance, I have a problem.
*giggle unfortunately without the uniformed consensus everyone can agree to , not everyone will be allowed to proxy.
Unless that person only plays with you , if they dont have a choice to every time , they'll STILL end up having to paint in a haste just to be able to game.
Remember one thing , i'll drill it into your head over and over again if i must. Just because YOU will allow something , doesnt mean others will.
Do not use yourself as the rule of thumb everyone can relate to. hence what i said up there? still stands.
After all , 60% of the people voted i cannot proxy Sister of battle as Marines even if they have same war gear and matches WYSIWYG perfectly.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Kanluwen wrote:Any hobby has a natural set of "rules" that come with it.
Some may, but not all.
Kanluwen wrote:You don't expect someone who plays paintball regularly to not do the research and get a decent gun
False example.
Someone could play paintball because they love running around pretending to shoot their friends and other people. Hell they might just do it for the exercise, and don't give two gaks about having a decent gun.
Kanluwen wrote:or someone whose hobby is working on cars to not do any form of research.
False example.
Someone working on a car needs that car to work, therefore would have to ensure they have the right parts lest they break something. And even that won't be true 100% of the time. Some people might just like taking things apart and putting them back together with no need to have top spec'ed components or even have the damned thing work.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
Redbeard wrote:Dashofpepper wrote:
Warhammer 40k is NOT a team sport. Its an individual competition.
Painting is an individual activity, not a competition. Playing is not an individual activity, you do it with someone else. If you can increase your opponent's enjoyment of your time together, isn't that a good thing?
LunaHound wrote:
Why are you entitled to enforce this effort you spent onto someone else? Is your existence so great that in order to confirm this self effort you must see it been reflected into your opponent's army?
Wow, that's misunderstood. If my opponent has a painted army, I'm going to have a much more enjoyable time gaming with them than if it isn't. I want to enjoy my time gaming. Therefore, I hope that my opponent's will paint their armies. I'm not going to refuse to play against someone who hasn't done so, but if they're part of my social group, I will (as will other's in our club) certainly mock the unpainted army. Peer pressure can be a good thing. And, if I am looking for a pickup game, I'll always choose to play someone who made some effort to paint their army over someone who did not.
See, if I want to play a strategy game, I can always play chess. Miniature games are more than that. No one gives a rats ass if you're the best 40k player in the world. It's a dice game, and there's too much luck involved to really make this distinction. On the other hand, a chess Grandmaster will get respect worldwide, even from many non chess players. So, "testing your skill" at 40k is, in the greater scope of things, really a pretty silly thing to do.
No, I play 40k because it's immersive. My army is a reflection of me. I choose the conversions. I choose the colours. I choose the composition. I base it on thousands of pages of backstory. It's more than just a handful of models sloppily glued together and thrown on the table. And, while I recognize that people do just enjoy playing, when I face an unpainted army, I expect to play a game against someone who cares for nothing but winning. When I play against a painted army, even one that isn't stunning, I know that my opponent is also looking for the immersion. They're making the effort to have their pieces exist in a miniature world and fit in.
I dunno, it's hard to explain, I'm probably not doing a great job of it.
wittzo wrote:
This game is sort of the same way, we want to imagine there are two armies in a war torn future fighting for their lives and then someone brings in a Lego truck or a squad of gray albinos to mix in with their allie's 'Eavy Metal painted army and it throws it off and it's just a game again..we've all done it so we can try something out without wasting the time and money buying and painting a unit that will suck.
...
What we have to do is motivate each other to paint and build, not run off newer players or people that think they're unskilled at it.
Wittzo gets it...
I took a ride out to the Chicago bunker tonight, and found a pick-up game, where my Tzeentch daemons faced off against Miggidy Mack's Grey Knights. Both armies were fully painted, and we had a bunch of people end up watching the game as a result. It's just more fun that way, what more can I say?
Great post, agreed completely. As a side note, your Daemons look fantastic (As does your entire gallery). I would love to line up against any of those armies!
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Post by: Kanluwen
H.B.M.C. wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Any hobby has a natural set of "rules" that come with it.
Some may, but not all.
Kanluwen wrote:You don't expect someone who plays paintball regularly to not do the research and get a decent gun
False example.
Someone could play paintball because they love running around pretending to shoot their friends and other people. Hell they might just do it for the exercise, and don't give two gaks about having a decent gun.
Kanluwen wrote:or someone whose hobby is working on cars to not do any form of research.
False example.
Someone working on a car needs that car to work, therefore would have to ensure they have the right parts lest they break something. And even that won't be true 100% of the time. Some people might just like taking things apart and putting them back together with no need to have top spec'ed components or even have the damned thing work.
They were pretty bad examples, but I wasn't able to think of any hobbies off the top of my head right there.
Maybe LARP would be a better example, but I'm not big with LARP. Automatically Appended Next Post: LunaHound wrote:Kanluwen wrote:
Sorry?
Did you not even read the post you're quoting?
If it's a first game for someone who's just getting in, someone with a ridiculously busy work schedule that CANNOT help it, or they're starting a brand new army--
I'm fine with it and let it slide.
I have no problems with someone doing a proxy Wood Elf army using their Chaos Warriors, because they want to try it out before they buy it. So long as they have the same amount of miniatures as the army they want to try out.
If they continue showing up with that proxy army, and make no effort to get the models for it, then I have a problem.
Are you starting to understand my stance?
So long as you make SOME FORM OF EFFORT along the way, I am okay with you.
If you just continue with the "I don't have the time/money/effort" stance, I have a problem.
*giggle unfortunately without the uniformed consensus everyone can agree to , not everyone will be allowed to proxy.
Unless that person only plays with you , if they dont have a choice to every time , they'll STILL end up having to paint in a haste just to be able to game.
Remember one thing , i'll drill it into your head over and over again if i must. Just because YOU will allow something , doesnt mean others will.
Do not use yourself as the rule of thumb everyone can relate to. hence what i said up there? still stands.
After all , 60% of the people voted i cannot proxy Sister of battle as Marines even if they have same war gear and matches WYSIWYG perfectly.
Not everyone will be allowed to proxy because some people make a habit of doing it, especially TFG.
MOST people will be lenient in a friendly environment if you're trying to fiddle around with a potential new army. Everyone's done it at some point. Then there's also the opposite of TFG, the guy with multiple painted armies, who's most likely willing to let you use them every so often for big games or trying a full army out.
And yes, just because I allow something doesn't mean others will. I'm well aware of that. I don't think the world revolves around me or any slights from that unpainted gamer mafia out there.
But then, you can also realize that not everyone will be willing to put up with someone who repeatedly comes in with a new army every week, no attempt to paint their stuff, always trying to unload an army, etc.
And yes. People wouldn't let you proxy Sisters of Battle as Marines, what a tragedy. Probably because Sisters of Battle have an established army list, established models, and established background rather than Gurl Mareenz Hurr. It's just like I won't let someone proxy an Imperial Guard army as Tyranids, or a Tau army as Imperial Guard...
Except if they've gone far, far out of their way converting it heavily to make it obvious that they're NOT what they started life as.
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Post by: LunaHound
Kanluwen wrote:
And yes. People wouldn't let you proxy Sisters of Battle as Marines, what a tragedy.
Watch your tone of voice sir , not only have you started this thread accusing me of making this thread for attention ,
you have taken a basic trade of opinion onto a personal lvl.
Granted you seem to be pretty heated into the discussion , just dont get carried away.
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Post by: Mistress of minis
This whole thread has pretty much much devolved into a debate on BELIEFS. Much akin to views on a religion.
If someone is so insecure they feel the need to seperate themselves because they like different ASPECTS of the same hobby- I'll point out this is a game that draws many that lack social skills.
By the same token-calling someone an elitist because they like fielding well done armies in preference to unpainted ones is an attempt to make that seem wrong as well. Hypocritical even.
So, just like some people prefer assault armies over shooty armies, some prefer to model and paint over not doing so.
Respect that choice, respect the consequences of your choice, and stop being a buncha insecure whiny gamer nerds that are arguing/debating something thats essentially pointless. This is silly drama, that wont have any useful outcome as its just over different aspects/beliefs of the same hobby.
I didnt get back into dakka to watch the special olympics play out in silly threads.
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Post by: Kanluwen
LunaHound wrote:Kanluwen wrote:
And yes. People wouldn't let you proxy Sisters of Battle as Marines, what a tragedy.
Watch your tone of voice sir , not only have you started this thread accusing me of making this thread for attention ,
you have taken a basic trade of opinion onto a personal lvl.
Granted you seem to be pretty heated into the discussion , just dont get carried away.
wow, just wow.
You cannot expect someone to, reasonably, let you proxy an army as a whole separate army without some form of conversion or explanation. Just going in and saying "These Sisters are really Marines. Have fun!" is ridiculous.
I'm sorry if you thought the "what a tragedy" was some form of personal attack, but if you did--get a thicker skin.
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Post by: LunaHound
Mistress of minis wrote:This whole thread has pretty much much devolved into a debate on BELIEFS. Much akin to views on a religion. A: Which is unfortunate , if people cannot see what exists in front of them ,no wonder they cant deal with religion issues.
If someone is so insecure they feel the need to seperate themselves because they like different ASPECTS of the same hobby- I'll point out this is a game that draws many that lack social skills. A: Which is unfortunate again , we dont need to seperate anything , as if this thread isnt obvious to show the different aspect of warhammer .
By the same token-calling someone an elitist because they like fielding well done armies in preference to unpainted ones is an attempt to make that seem wrong as well. Hypocritical even. A: I'll entertain that thought in a bit
So, just like some people prefer assault armies over shooty armies, some prefer to model and paint over not doing so. A: Not quite so simple , its saddening to see people's reaction when rejected a game due to lack of painting
Respect that choice, respect the consequences of your choice, and stop being a buncha insecure whiny gamer nerds that are arguing/debating something thats essentially pointless. This is silly drama, that wont have any useful outcome as its just over different aspects/beliefs of the same hobby.
I didnt get back into dakka to watch the special olympics play out in silly threads.
Please remember this for your own sake then. Put me on ignore if you must , i am pretty silly after all , and dont want to ruin your dakka experience.
This thread was created to see opinions , it was not I that chose what happens . After all (i'll repeat again 7th time) im a hobbiest not a gamer , this issue does interest me , but irrelevant to myself personally.
I ask because situations does happen around game shops i see in the past , you can hate on me all you want claiming im whinning because it happens to me , but its not so.
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Post by: djphranq
o schnaps... when I left work this thread was maybe 3 or 4 entries.... now its a novel... a VOLUME even...
*goes to read OP again*
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Post by: GoFenris
I like Wayfarer's view and I also really see wittzo's side of it. combatmedic's comment was just hilarious! Ultimately in my understanding, Warhammer Fantasy/ 40K is a hobby/game about collecting, modeling/painting and playing armies. We all choose to play it and I, specifically, chose to play it with all of these things in mind. I believe it is respectful to the Warhammer community as a whole to make an effort at collecting and modeling/painting my pieces before I decide to play. Not because someone will get mad at me for not doing it but specifically because it is respectful to others who play, whether painted or not. I've already admitted I have a partially painted army I play with. I am continually making improvements to my army every week and my club knows it (at least I think they do ). The people I play with have varying degrees of quality in their painted armies and I'm the one that's usually behind. I'm embarrassed by this fact. They don't make me feel embarrassed, actually they are very supportive. To re-type a point I already made but seems relevant to more recent posts: You can model/convert all day, alone. No one else is involved unless they're appreciating your work which is after the fact and indirect. When you play, you're involving others directly. This is where I agree with Wayfarer and wittzo and my own sense of respect for others that play the game. Lunahound, I agree with you in response to Mistress of minis comments. I love that all of these opinions are out there. I find the whole thing very interesting and fantastic overall. Thanks for a great thread. Of course this makes combatmedic's comment all the more humorous! 
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Post by: djphranq
Mistress of minis wrote:
Respect that choice, respect the consequences of your choice
Well put. Be mindful that others are different; accept your own difference as well. You say Lazgun, I say Laysgun...
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Wolfstan wrote:I find it fascinating that there is a mind set that feels that there is something wrong in playing with unpainted figures. People have generally given the impression that the person turning up with an unpainted army is lazy or making excuses. That you should make the effert, other wise move along to a game that is more suitable for your lazy can't be bothered arse.
People have said that they tend to avoid gamers who turn up with unpainted models as it offends their ideas of what the hobby entails. That is sad. Yes it's your choice as people have posted, but it's still sad that you think it, even if you don't say it out loud.
There have been some damn good replies defending unpainted models on the post, many of them much better then I could articulate, but in the end they are probably wasted as I can't see the painted mindset changing their minds seeing how shallow they are. You've managed to implement a class system within a hobby, well done.
Me? I've seen guys turn up with models that are just the legs of walkers or half assembled and the only reason that this bothers me is that it is open to cheating.
Really???
If someone makes a super well painted army, I would be honored to play it. I feel a lot of these painters deserve due respect, and in essence I feel that you bitch-slap that opportunity away from them with every post. If people are SUPER-ELITE and have no regard for other people feeling they can take their hate outside, and we can take care of it right then and there, or THEY CAN LEAVE OR BE KICKED OUT. Making people feel bad because they have a standard is extremely petty, and borderline fascist.
This is not a personal attack but I am directing to you specifically as you so liberally attacked my attempt to help people achieve a reasonable goal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
djphranq wrote:Mistress of minis wrote:
Respect that choice, respect the consequences of your choice
Well put. Be mindful that others are different; accept your own difference as well. You say Lazgun, I say Laysgun...
Tomato, Tomatoe, Potato, Potatoe, Hand grenade, Nuclear bomb... OH #$@% NERD RAGE!!!
Mistress of minis wrote:I didnt get back into dakka to watch the special olympics play out in silly threads.
The athletes in the special olympics have the power to inspire more people than a "normal" person ever could. If I was in a wheel chair and could beat some of the players in the NBA I would be on top of the world, no joke. There are artists that can paint WITH THEIR FEET!!! Simply amazing to me.
"Note"
Not particularly offended by anything you said, but I will say that some would be.
GoFenris wrote:You can model/convert all day, alone. No one else is involved unless they're appreciating your work which is after the fact and indirect.
Sure... Until I get a you-tube channel and go cojones on the frying-pan. YOU MAKE THE DECISIONS as the client of designer, and I hope to offer this lesson anyway I can. This is true of any economy, the people are inevitably the designers BEHIND the designers of the real-time situations you and me will encounter in our average shopping experiences.
CAJONEZ IN DA FRYING PAN!!! 
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AgeOfEgos wrote:I guess it depends on how you view the game.
I think a game between players is a non-verbal contract. The contract essentially states 'I know I can't have fun without your mutual participation and you rely on me in the same fashion. So lets work through game problems and try to have fun'. I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with that.
Given that, we are involved in a hobby where a high majority of players paint/model. The parent company that pushes the game system also pushes the model aspect of the hobby (highly). So, you can't be upset when another player enjoys games against painted armies. It's a part of the hobby and by showing up with your plastic blob, you've already possibly encroached on that above mentioned contract. Against other players who also play with gray plastic? Well who the hell cares then? Play.
However, if you refuse to paint your miniatures in a hobby that encourages/sales modeling.....you can't justify getting angry when people avoid playing you. Or when you play in tournaments that reward it. On a personal note (Not used for argument, just my opinion), it boggles my mind that people would spend the cash GW demands for their models....but not paint them. Why not just use boxes of appropriate size marked "Land Raider"?
/Ejects from thread
LOCK AND LOAD THIS SUCKER IS FALLING DOWN!!!
Great points, and a nice exit to boot
LunaHound wrote:K , for the very last time , dont patronize me , check my gallery, I-DO-PAINT . You guys truly think this thread is drama? No , its real incidents that happens to people.
Drama is only created by people that chose to . You know its really really funny . I'll repeat this again " its incredible . you think because i created this thread, this situation is related to me personally?"
thats so far from the truth . Or is it my painting is so awful that you think its worse then primed + slapping wash on?
Ohm hari hari peace be with Luna and surroundings she encounters. You should chill a bit, if they misread and avoid the purpose of your post, whoozy-whats-it who cares???
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Post by: Relapse
LunaHound wrote:
K guys , take this as a rant / complaint / which ever you want to call it . But surely we all have our share of agitation with hobby elitists just the same
way as there is TFG during the game plays.
What is warhammer ? its as much of a game as it is hobby. Some people do it for hobby 's sake , other do it for game sake . Then the most common type , they do both
to "get more bang out of their money"
Just like some people say "lawl its a game , relax" , there is also " lawl its just a game , please dont criticize how we paint or not paint our game pieces"
I know its abit "far fetched" to say warhammer is similar to chess . But you know what i mean , units represented by miniature / sculpts . They both function the same way,
just some are more detailed and elaborate than others. So if you want to be proud that you spent 100s of hours on your intricate army , you can be proud .
But please remember , there are the other half doesnt see it the same way you do , they are but game pieces.
So before you scoff at other's unpainted armies , please rethink the following:
1) They aren't in it for the hobby aspect.
2) They don't have much free time . Some only have time for 1 game per week , don't expect everyone to have same amount of time as you.
3) Some don't have the proper materials as you. (bad brush bad primer bad paints)
4) Some don't have the knowledge in techniques or the practice. Were you always as good as you are when you started? Nope ?
The list can go on , but basically we all must realize something. "we" are not "you" Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.
Do they look like you? are they your clones ? no they arnt . So why should you suddenly expect them to do what you think they should do?
Luna, You've hit it pretty much on the mark. When I was single, I'd be able to paint some pretty fair looking armies and found time to do tournaments, etc.
These days, my wife and children top my priority list along with several other responsibilities I have. I am lucky to be able to get in one game every month or so with the occasional tournament thrown in every 6 months or so as an excuse to get a couple of extra games played.
That being said, I enjoy looking at the new codexes and buying the miniatures to go with them. I really don't have a lot of time these days to do much else than put the things together before running the new army in a game against my friends. I'll run my old Necrons or DE in tournaments because they're the only armies I have fully painted from years gone by if a tournament has a painted rule. Otherwise I'll just run grey plastic and metal.
It really in the end comes down to priorities in life. I know I like getting a painted army on the table, but I also know I have more important things to do these days. Maybe one day my kids will finish off the miniatures I don't have painted or maybe the miniatures will become a family curse that goes in all their grey and metal glory from generation to generation, waiting for the decendant with enough time and talent to finish them off.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
I think that every gamer SHOULD at least make SOME effort toward painting. If you have just assembled a brand new army, and you want to try it out, it does not matter if they are painted, but after months...years? Then there is something wrong with your self-motivation.
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Post by: Relapse
Emperors Faithful wrote:I think that every gamer SHOULD at least make SOME effort toward painting. If you have just assembled a brand new army, and you want to try it out, it does not matter if they are painted, but after months...years? Then there is something wrong with your self-motivation.
On the other side of the coin, there are those that say something is wrong with your self motivation if you just spend time worrying about painting plastic soldiers. As I said it just comes down to what each individual person has in their life for preference and responsibilities.
For me I prefer playing the game but I really don't have time in my schedule for much else to do with the hobby. I'd rather be in the life of my family rather than losing time to painting miniatures. Kids grow up really quick and I don't want to lose a lot of that time.
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Post by: LunaHound
Relapse wrote:
For me I prefer playing the game but I really don't have time in my schedule for much else to do with the hobby. I'd rather be in the life of my family rather than losing time to painting miniatures. Kids grow up really quick and I don't want to lose a lot of that time.
T-T the other thread asked "whats the meaning to be a father" well guys.... this is it. Love of a parent in the purest form. 
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Post by: Dashofpepper
The two words that really come to mind when I read this thread are as follows:
1. Prejudice
2. Bigotry
If you fall into the category of people who will judge someone else for how they spend their own money, and attempt to segregate them into a lower class of people whom you won't deign to play against because you've confused being "better" with being an "a-hole," then the preceeding two words apply to you, along with many others.
There comes a time when someone can simply be so dumb or obtuse that trying to show the light of reason qualifies under epic fail, and this thread fits that description. Calling people lazy/unmotivated/lesser/making excuses....are all symptoms of prejudiced bigotry. NONE of those are the issue. The issue is this:
Player A spends 10 hours of time dedicated to Warhammer 40k per week. Player A spends 8 of those 10 hours painting, and 2 of those 10 hours playing.
Player B spends 10 hours of time dedicated to Warhammer 40k per week. Player B spends 8 of those 10 hours painting, and 2 of those 10 hours assembling/converting/reading forums/painting.
---------------------------------------------------------------
For some STRANGE reason, the player As around here think that they're better than player Bs. Again, please note previous two words. Can't say it enough, but its my money to spend how I want, and I'll do what I want with it. Not a single person out there has the right to frown at me and disapprove of how I participate in my hobby.
Shame on you guys. Shame on you for trying to suppress another portion of the population. You guys should run for office; you seem to be fans of telling people you don't know and have no personal stake in how to run their lives.
*EDIT* I do have standards for armies though; I expect people to play WYSIWYG, with clear proxies if needed so that I can tell what is what on the table. I don't think its too hard to at least prime your armies; that takes a couple of minutes. If people are going to play grey plastic, I expect something to delineate where squad choices begin and end....tag the bases a different color or something.
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Post by: JOHIRA
The way I see it, this is very simple: Don't be rude.
If a club or a tournament has a rule about needing painted minis to play there, don't play there. It's rude to force private people to change their club to suit your disinterest in painting. And trying to pass their club off as bigoted is just ridiculous.
At the same time, if you are in a club that doesn't have such rules and you see someone who doesn't have a painted army, don't be rude to them. A little playful ribbing is healthy, but at the end of the day it's that person's right to do with their money as they wish, and your approval of it is irrelevant.
Don't be rude. Don't try to control how other people have fun. Just have fun.
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
Dashofpepper wrote:The two words that really come to mind when I read this thread are as follows:
1. Prejudice
2. Bigotry
Stop acting like you can't go into a diner because you don't paint your warhammer models.
It's ridiculous.
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Post by: Kanluwen
JOHIRA wrote:The way I see it, this is very simple: Don't be rude.
If a club or a tournament has a rule about needing painted minis to play there, don't play there. It's rude to force private people to change their club to suit your disinterest in painting. And trying to pass their club off as bigoted is just ridiculous.
At the same time, if you are in a club that doesn't have such rules and you see someone who doesn't have a painted army, don't be rude to them. A little playful ribbing is healthy, but at the end of the day it's that person's right to do with their money as they wish, and your approval of it is irrelevant.
Don't be rude. Don't try to control how other people have fun. Just have fun.
He just said it better than I ever really could, I think.
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Post by: Wolfstan
Wrexasaur wrote:Wolfstan wrote:I find it fascinating that there is a mind set that feels that there is something wrong in playing with unpainted figures. People have generally given the impression that the person turning up with an unpainted army is lazy or making excuses. That you should make the effert, other wise move along to a game that is more suitable for your lazy can't be bothered arse.
People have said that they tend to avoid gamers who turn up with unpainted models as it offends their ideas of what the hobby entails. That is sad. Yes it's your choice as people have posted, but it's still sad that you think it, even if you don't say it out loud.
There have been some damn good replies defending unpainted models on the post, many of them much better then I could articulate, but in the end they are probably wasted as I can't see the painted mindset changing their minds seeing how shallow they are. You've managed to implement a class system within a hobby, well done.
Me? I've seen guys turn up with models that are just the legs of walkers or half assembled and the only reason that this bothers me is that it is open to cheating.
Really???
If someone makes a super well painted army, I would be honored to play it. I feel a lot of these painters deserve due respect, and in essence I feel that you bitch-slap that opportunity away from them with every post. If people are SUPER-ELITE and have no regard for other people feeling they can take their hate outside, and we can take care of it right then and there, or THEY CAN LEAVE OR BE KICKED OUT. Making people feel bad because they have a standard is extremely petty, and borderline fascist.
This is not a personal attack but I am directing to you specifically as you so liberally attacked my attempt to help people achieve a reasonable goal.
Why am I bitch slapping painters? I'm a painter, see my previous post with the long list of examples, and enjoy playing with painted models. I've even done suff like stick unit patches on my RoE models so they look even better. As I've stated before, I don't like fielding unpainted models myself. When me and my mate play RoE, we will lay out the table and spend ten minutes feasting our eyes on the forces on display and the scenery (he's got Lost Valley trees and bushes, which are just awesome, think there are some images on the club website, www.wessexwyverns.org.uk). I will also offer advice and try and encourage other gamers to paint. So why would I bitch slap painters?
Given all that I've just said, at no time have I ever seen an unpainted army and had a negative thought on the person who owns it.
There are actually a fair few members of my club that field unpainted or half painted forces on a regular basis and nobody says a word. These guys collect and play tens of systems and generally can kick your arse with any of them, they also know their systems inside & out, in fact they even very rarely refer to rule books. On the flip side there is a club member who is a brilliant painter & convertor, who mainly plays a 40k IG army, been playing for years, but who a game against him takes double the time as he still keeps having to refer to the rule book or ask questions.
Just out of interest do the gamers who object to unpainted models play many other systems? There does seem to be an underlying train of thought that if you don't paint your models, then GW games aren't for you. To me, a true gamer is someone who plays a mixture of different systems. Each ruleset plays differently, presenting different challenges. If you go to a traditional wargaming show, you will meet these people. They have tons of systems at home and can reel off stats & rules without breaking stride. These people play for the love of gaming, not painting. Yes there will be keen painters in there, but there will also be the gamers who just game. Try visiting www.larryleadhead.com sometime and you will see what true gaming is about. I think you will find that these people treat vast amounts of unpainted armies as a badge of honour, not something to be ashamed of.
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Post by: Lanrak
HI all.
Maybe the reason there appears to be 'elitism' in the 'GW hobby' is because it tries to cover all of wargaming expectations with very limited core games?
If the rest of the 40k/WH/Lotr player were more exposed to the wider wargames hobby.They would see that GW core games fufill a small part of gaming -hobby expectation.
There are much more 'game play' oriented games , with minimal 'hobby' input.And also there are far more hobby intensive games too!
GW try to appeal to the widest customer demoghaphic as possible.
(But rather than have a wider range of games to suit all types of gamer like they used to.)
They try to cram everyone into 3 core games no matter thier gaming -hobby requirments.
At our local games club we use over 30 rule sets , so each set of players can get a better experiance by picking the level of hobby -simulation -complexity they are happy with.
There is no right or wrong here , just opposing oppinions artificualy crammed together by GW to maximise profits.IMO.
TTFN
Lanrak.
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Post by: Flashman
My word, has this thread really got to 8 pages in a day?! Way to start a mini Civil War Luna
1941
Post by: Wolfstan
Something else to remember is that there are alot of traditional wargamers who still look down on GW systems. It has been said on this board that "gamers who just want to play" should move over to games like Axis & Allies. Well I hate to inform you, but alot of traditional wargamers view GW games in that way. They class the rulesets as systems designed for children or people who can't handle a real game. They do have a point about the ruleset, but if you enjoy it, great, adults & kids are interacting not sitting infront of the TV or playing computer games, thats got to be a good thing. However it does show that within wargaming there are enough snobs without adding another layer.
Traditional wargamers look down on GW gamers, GW gamers then feel that they will need look down on someone else... non painters.
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Post by: Sidstyler
Indeed, excellent point. We shouldn't be fighting and hating each other, we should be fighting and hating other people!
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Post by: Flashman
Wolfstan wrote:
Traditional wargamers look down on GW gamers, GW gamers then feel that they will need look down on someone else... non painters.
And LARPers
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Post by: NAVARRO
LunaHound wrote:Super , this thread have already yielded the results i was hoping to see. There are clearly 3 types of players here:
Type 3) Painting Elitists :
- Last time I checked painting 40k armies is part of official rules for gaming... you can choose not to its your perrogative as is others to decline to play with you... no need to rant or btch about it just learn to embrace the consequences of your choices.
K , i also see the argument comming from a weird issue. Painters not willing to acknowledge gaming is as essential to others as painting is to themselves.
Also , i have many people claiming what im saying is double standard . Not really , as we dont laugh about how nerdy someone is for spending 10 hour on a model ,
we would expect same basic lvl of respect not to do the same on lack of paint effort. It is not double standard when one out come = you dont get to play because the person complains about lack of painted minis.
You see the problem now?
I think you dont understant something basic in your ranting/complains whatever... you complain about someone not wanting to play with you or behaving like a ahole critisizing your choices but YET you feel entiteled to do the same thing and to call me a painter elitist... yet I never ever judged you in any way or form... what gives you the right to label my behaviour of avoiding playing with people with proxies/grey armies as a painter elitist?
This is double standart.
Mind i dont really care but your base ground is just amazingly ridiculous.
Also some really nasty mindless aggressive posts on this thread... not my cup of tea.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mistress of minis wrote:This whole thread has pretty much much devolved into a debate on BELIEFS. Much akin to views on a religion.
If someone is so insecure they feel the need to seperate themselves because they like different ASPECTS of the same hobby- I'll point out this is a game that draws many that lack social skills.
By the same token-calling someone an elitist because they like fielding well done armies in preference to unpainted ones is an attempt to make that seem wrong as well. Hypocritical even.
So, just like some people prefer assault armies over shooty armies, some prefer to model and paint over not doing so.
Respect that choice, respect the consequences of your choice, and stop being a buncha insecure whiny gamer nerds that are arguing/debating something thats essentially pointless. This is silly drama, that wont have any useful outcome as its just over different aspects/beliefs of the same hobby.
I didnt get back into dakka to watch the special olympics play out in silly threads.
I love you Mistress of minis. Totally agree!
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Post by: LunaHound
NAVARRO wrote:
I think you dont understant something basic in your ranting/complains whatever... you complain about someone not wanting to play with you or behaving like a ahole critisizing your choices but YET you feel entiteled to do the same thing and to call me a painter elitist... yet I never ever judged you in any way or form... what gives you the right to label my behaviour of avoiding playing with people with proxies/grey armies as a painter elitist?
This is double standart.
Mind i dont really care but your base ground is just amazingly ridiculous.
Also some really nasty mindless aggressive posts on this thread... not my cup of tea.
I havnt actually called anyone elitists in the forum yet.
Do i know you? No .
Do i know you in person? No
Do i even know you on dakka? No
Then on what reason would i have to call you elitists? absolutely no reason. Because i wasnt even talking to you.
All you have been doing is jumping into the posts that wasnt directed towards you and then say it was meant for you.
Why do you do that?
Flashman wrote:My word, has this thread really got to 8 pages in a day?! Way to start a mini Civil War Luna
Unfortunately , so it seems . Its sort of incredible though , how much hate are generated out of thin air just to be standing on the opposite side of the *preference.
Can sort of see how ego / pride / believes / misunderstanding / assumption can lead to such chaos so quickly.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
LunaHound wrote:
I havnt actually called anyone elitists in the forum yet.
Do i know you? No .
Do i know you in person? No
On what reason would i have to call you elitists? none.
All you have been doing is jumping into the posts that wasnt directed towards you and then say it was meant for you.
Why do you do that?
I agree.
If these threads are so hard on your eyes, why do you douse them in our super-secret sauce, and take things the wrong way. There are people that have said those things, but generalizing is missing the entire point here, IMHO. Stating your values and expectations of other gamers is totally acceptable, and most of the posters would probably agree with that.
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Post by: NAVARRO
LunaHound wrote:NAVARRO wrote:
I think you dont understant something basic in your ranting/complains whatever... you complain about someone not wanting to play with you or behaving like a ahole critisizing your choices but YET you feel entiteled to do the same thing and to call me a painter elitist... yet I never ever judged you in any way or form... what gives you the right to label my behaviour of avoiding playing with people with proxies/grey armies as a painter elitist?
This is double standart.
Mind i dont really care but your base ground is just amazingly ridiculous.
Also some really nasty mindless aggressive posts on this thread... not my cup of tea.
I havnt actually called anyone elitists in the forum yet.
Do i know you? No .
Do i know you in person? No
Do i even know you on dakka? No
Then on what reason would i have to call you elitists? absolutely no reason. Because i wasnt even talking to you.
All you have been doing is jumping into the posts that wasnt directed towards you and then say it was meant for you.
Why do you do that?
Because on the option 3) that you labeled as a painter elitist behaviour... you quoted me 100%.
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Post by: LunaHound
NAVARRO wrote:
Because on the option 3) that you labeled as a painter elitist behaviour... you quoted me 100%.
Oh yes i see that : Type 3) Painting Elitists :
- Last time I checked painting 40k armies is part of official rules for gaming... you can choose not to its your perrogative as is others to decline to play with you... no need to rant or btch about it just learn to embrace the consequences of your choices.
"embrace the consequences" , oh my.... which of the big sins have a player commited to warrant such harsh words.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
I also quoted Luna when I said "also"
( )
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Post by: NAVARRO
Continuing on judging? way to go lass... now keep on complaining on the aholes that do the same thing to you... makes perfect sense.
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Post by: LunaHound
Wrexasaur , i have a question.
Personally i stand in the middle. As in:
Myself perfers the hobby more than gaming.
I would totally allow my opponent to field unpainted armies.
Yes i do agree painted army is better visually to look at.
Though i dont agree it should be enforced with such extreme attitudes.
Now my question Wrexasaur , why is it because i created this thread , ALL the posts that are anti-painter automatically directed towards me?
Is this like the petty fighting similar to Republicans vs Democarats? Where they are so engrossed into clawing each other's throat out they lost sight to the original discussuion?
NAVARRO wrote:Continuing on judging? way to go lass... now keep on complaining on the aholes that do the same thing to you... makes perfect sense.
Im not judging anything mister , im responding according to your sentence itself . Why would i judge you? i already said i dont know you.
I guess you can say "the response is the *consequence* of how you word your sentence"
Dont be silly Nav , i have never been denied a single game , try not to assume just because someone raises a question , it automatically means its to do with them personally.
If you must pick something to judge me with , use the Opening Post Nav , its what i truly wanted to ask before the chaos sets in.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
First response, a literal .
Second, oh yes it is becoming something like the english parliment, cussing and shouting and all that. The american politicians are much too tame for this.
Don't throw stones at glass houses, as they say, and we appear to be inside a HUGE glass dome, surrounded by a billion ma-guay holding stones...and the sprinklers just turned on.
Here is where we were a page or two ago... Of course I posted this in response to the 3 pages that I had missed overnight
djphranq wrote:Mistress of minis wrote:Wrexasaur wrote:
Respect that choice, respect the consequences of your choice
Well put. Be mindful that others are different; accept your own difference as well. You say Lazgun, I say Laysgun...
Tomato, Tomatoe, Potato, Potatoe, Hand grenade, Nuclear bomb... OH #$@% NERD RAGE!!!
The funny thing is that in real life games at any of our FLGS this wouldn't even be an issue if it was the staff doing so. To be totally and utterly honest I haven't met ANY Super-Elite painting buffs who will actually turn down games. Either way it is their decision and finding another game isn't really that much of a problem. If you are in a club and they DEMAND it of you, I suggest finding a way to do so. After all it is A.) required by the club and B.) your choice either way, you CAN game elsewhere. People have their "Temples" so to speak, and I would recommend keeping the peace with them.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Major turn off from me is when people constantly edit their posts after quotes etc... I will take my energies elsewere.
BTW embracing a consequence of a act, doenst mean its a sin or a deed it has not negative connotation whatsoever... but in your mind things dont seem to work that way...
Pointless debate tbh.
Cheers
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Post by: LunaHound
@ wrex:
Yes i understand that part , however among the chaos , some pretty vital details are left out. Leading to this further confusion. Let me try to explain:
For example when this sentence was listed :
"Respect that choice, respect the consequences of your choice "
An example was followed with "let the painter have their preference and choice to pick a painted army he will find it fun to play with , instead of an un painted army"
Yes that i agree , however the part missing to what i wanted to say is , there are situations where someone rather NOT play altogether.
For example , someone with unpainted model asked the person for a game. The moment he sees the army is unpainted he declines . And proceeds to read their codex. This is the type of rude elitist attitude im talking about.
NAVARRO wrote:Major turn off from me is when people constantly edit their posts after quotes etc... I will take my energies elsewere.
BTW embracing a consequence of a act, doenst mean its a sin or a deed it has not negative connotation whatsoever... but in your mind things dont seem to work that way...
Pointless debate tbh.
Cheers
Again , whats your problem? you even have issues with me editing posts now? Lets see why i edit post.
1) The thing im trying to quote isnt quoting properly .
2) There is another question for me while im typing , and im trying to address it by editing instead of spamming.
3) When i say spam , im talking about the (automated ependex or w/e its called )
Oh yes , embracing a consequence of an act isnt very negative itself . However why leave out the "rant or btch" part? surely you cant take that part out?
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Post by: Flashman
LunaHound wrote:
For example , someone with unpainted model asked the person for a game. The moment he sees the army is unpainted he declines . And proceeds to read their codex. This is the type of rude elitist attitude im talking about.
Yes, I'd agree with this example. If it came to a choice between playing against an unpainted foe and not playing at all, I would have thought most civilised folk would take the former option.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Is "spam" as you put it frowned upon? I do it so I can get a full scope of a thread and maintain some simple formatting w/o too much work.
LunaHound wrote:
Yes i understand that part , however among the chaos , some pretty vital details are left out. Leading to this further confusion. Let me try to explain:
For example when this sentence was listed :
"Respect that choice, respect the consequences of your choice "
An example was followed with "let the painter have their preference and choice to pick a painted army he will find it fun to play with , instead of an un painted army"
Yes that i agree , however the part missing to what i wanted to say is , there are situations where someone rather NOT play altogether.
For example , someone with unpainted model asked the person for a game. The moment he sees the army is unpainted he declines . And proceeds to read their codex. This is the type of rude elitist attitude im talking about.
This guy... I am sorry TFG, I can't tell you how much flak I would give this person when I play them. Just friendly ribbings you know, but with the CLAW. Yes the CLAW is a registered trademark of lay the heck of the UN- TFG or we will shoot your happy little fantasy world down... DOWN SUPER NERD, DOWN.
"Note"
The CLAW is also known as a super-elite list specifically designed to utterly devastate their nicest army on the field of their choice.
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Post by: LunaHound
Flashman wrote:LunaHound wrote:
For example , someone with unpainted model asked the person for a game. The moment he sees the army is unpainted he declines . And proceeds to read their codex. This is the type of rude elitist attitude im talking about.
Yes, I'd agree with this example. If it came to a choice between playing against an unpainted foe and not playing at all, I would have thought most civilised folk would take the former option.
I know -_- and people are so dead determined to brand me as villain that they dont even give me time to respond properly.
Infact i had to repeat many things over and over again , its hard to keep track what i missed.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
When I was a club member, we just didn't play with unpainted figures.
Whatever period we decided to play, from Ancients to Naval to SF, we only played a game once we had painted up the figures we needed. If we started a new period, like ACW, the first thing we did was decide what rules to use and who was going to be which army, then everyone bought the figures they needed and painted them.
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Post by: utan
Yes, the game is designed with the idea in mind that you will be building and painting models.
Yes, you can choose to play whomever you want based on your own criteria (in a tournament, it's the organizer's criteria, but you chose the tournament).
Yes, making personal attacks is a sign that you are on the wrong side of an argument.
Yes, 40k is a game and games are designed to be mutually fun for the participants.
I personally only play 40k against women and the loser is subject to a spanking. Are you gonna judge me?
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Post by: grizgrin
Yes, I judge you to have a wider and deeper pool of female 40k players in your area than I do if you play with any real frequency. I also judge that your opponents are probably "sore" losers.
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Post by: gorgon
LunaHound wrote:For example , someone with unpainted model asked the person for a game. The moment he sees the army is unpainted he declines . And proceeds to read their codex. This is the type of rude elitist attitude im talking about.
Although I think that's a very limited set of circumstances. If that's all this thread was about, it wouldn't be up to 9 pages. I think you've used "painting elitist" in a somewhat broader manner, and that's what Navarro, Wayfarer, Mistress of Minis, myself and others are reacting to.
You can't say "let me enjoy my hobby my way," and then make digs at others who do the same but in a different way than you. That's hypocrisy, and that's all I've been trying to say here. I think if you (and others) would stop using language like "painting elitist" (and the racial segregation analogies, etc.) this whole thread would be a better discussion and a whole lot less inflammatory.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
gorgon wrote:LunaHound wrote:For example , someone with unpainted model asked the person for a game. The moment he sees the army is unpainted he declines . And proceeds to read their codex. This is the type of rude elitist attitude im talking about.
Although I think that's a very limited set of circumstances. If that's all this thread was about, it wouldn't be up to 9 pages. I think you've used "painting elitist" in a somewhat broader manner, and that's what Navarro, Wayfarer, Mistress of Minis, myself and others are reacting to.
You can't say "let me enjoy my hobby my way," and then make digs at others who do the same but in a different way than you. That's hypocrisy, and that's all I've been trying to say here. I think if you (and others) would stop using language like "painting elitist" (and the racial segregation analogies, etc.) this whole thread would be a better discussion and a whole lot less inflammatory.
This I agree with, but at the same time I do think Luna was trying to be situation specific, and some things were taken out of context.
The whole racial thing... I don't even know... yeah, not really sure what to say. I didn't say anything to that effect, nor did Luna or most of the other posters.
In a face to face situation, I truly believe this would usually be a non-issue. It is interesting to see how much people have to say about this though.
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Post by: Mistress of minis
–verb (used without object)
1. to speak or declaim extravagantly or violently; talk in a wild or vehement way;
For anyone that has basic familiarity with english- the above definition may be why you feel people are singling you out.
Using the word in the opening sentence implies passion for the subject- which follows that you'd take a side forthe argument rather than claiming to be neutral about it.
If, you choose to use inflammatory prose, you should be prepared to weather the rhetoric of those that believe you are aiming it at them.
If you are trying to be neutral, rant/complaint could have easily been replaced with 'observed/curious about' and the tone of the thread may have been more productive.
Approach determines response. If you start a thread with a confrontational tone- thats the response you should expect in turn- and by and large thats what has been posted.
If thats not what you had hoped for from the thread- ask a mod to lock it down. Perhaps starting fresh, and with a different approach- ask people what they think rather than making a statement. This lets a discussion flow, opposing sides can more easily see the others viewpoint if they arent made to feel that their own is wrong from the first post.
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Post by: Noble713
LunaHound wrote:
a) some people cant visualize how the army plays by simply reading the codex . they have to physically play it.
b) most people dont allow proxy for entire armies , thus A: they have to purchase the army for the sake of even trying it.
Why can't this person solo a proxy game in their own home? IMO, you don't need an opponent to figure out the mechanics of your chosen force. Frequent soloing of Titan Legions (with largely unpainted armies) taught me that a single Mega-Gargant is no match for an Imperator Titan with a hefty reserve of plasma. Soloing games of Starfleet Battles taught me that Starfleet Battles isn't much fun.
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Post by: GoFenris
Wow!
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Post by: Mistress of minis
Noble713 wrote:
Why can't this person solo a proxy game in their own home? IMO, you don't need an opponent to figure out the mechanics of your chosen force. Frequent soloing of Titan Legions (with largely unpainted armies) taught me that a single Mega-Gargant is no match for an Imperator Titan with a hefty reserve of plasma. Soloing games of Starfleet Battles taught me that Starfleet Battles isn't much fun.
It takes alot of courage to admit you play with yourself like that lol *pokes out minds eye over mega-gargant/imperator plasma reserve content* >.<
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Post by: Dashofpepper
You know, I've written some pretty abrasive things in this thread about prejudice and elitism.
Thought I should clarify something. I have painted armies. I have to use proxies sometimes when I'm trying new things or new units that I don't have, or haven't assembled yet. I'm going to a practice 'Ard Boyz game today and I'll have 30 proxied models; one of those units is currently being painted, the other I have yet to build (all of them having to be custom-built from my bits box). I *prefer* people with painted armies, because they're more fun to look at.
I draw the line at the idea of refusing to play against someone without an unpainted army.
ANYTIME someone is willing to draw a line, put someone on the other side of it, and then say, "I'm better than that group" I take offense and dig in. I have no beef against people who paint and detail their armies beautifully. I take offense (and have here) when some particular bigots think that painting makes them better than another person...makes that other person unworthy of interaction. To whomever the previous dunce was who scoffed at the idea and thought it ridiculous that a gaming "club" could be bigoted for not allowing unpainted armies...we're talking about INDIVIDUALS. Not clubs or stores. If a store doesn't allow non-painted armies in it....easy enough; they shut down eventually because they lose customers, or they change their policy. In those FUBAR-ed stores, there's not an opportunity for someone to walk in and be scoffed at because of their unpainted army....they're not welcome in the first place.
Its when a store *doesn't* have that policy, and some elitist ahole will walk into it with a superior attitude and judge those without painted armies as a lower lifeform that they're unwilling to play a game with. THAT is the problem. That's the prejudice. And people with that attitude are the people who need a brand burned into their head that has a four letter word starting with "c" in it.
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Post by: Crazy_Carnifex
I are surprized. There iz no Lolcat. Yet.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
Noble713 wrote:
Why can't this person solo a proxy game in their own home?
Because playing with other people is FUN. I'm playing a 2500 point game today against an IG player, who is going to be using square pieces of newspaper to represent some of his vehicles. I *asked* him for the game. I want to see what mechanized IG can do. Not everyone has every model. Come down off your high horse. Automatically Appended Next Post: Crazy_Carnifex wrote:I are surprized. There iz no Lolcat. Yet.
The Lolcat is my avatar.
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Post by: GoFenris
Crazy_Carnifex wrote:I are surprized. There iz no Lolcat. Yet.
'Ere you go!
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Post by: Cannerus_The_Unbearable
This whole argument is stupid. There is nothing wrong with having an unpainted army. I don't know what moral or ethical boundary is being pushed by not. I would rather see everything in the same state (all primed, all bare, all painted) than nothing, but a game is a game as long as a I have an okay idea of WYSIWYG or enough familiarity with the army for it not to matter. I play Chaos and all of my squads are fully painted and WYSIWYG with matching Rhinos, even the ones I never use. I like them that way. Some people might have random color rhinos and random color troops (like the noob Blood Angel player at one of my FLGS who has each of his SMs painted as though they're from a different chapter.)
It does not matter if an army is painted or not. Noone dies or gets hurt if an army is not painted. You can care if you like, but the moment that anyone gets upset about an army being unpainted, you show immaturity. Please disagree with this statement and prove my point simultaneously.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Here's an analogy.
Suppose you and a friend decide to have a barbecue party. You are to bring the drinks and he is to bring the food. You turn up with a case of cold beer, a nice chunky red wine and a medium-dry white for the ladies. He brings a family size microwave pizza and a box of pop tarts. Wouldn't you feel a bit put out?
It's a similar feeling for people who think the point of playing of toy soldiers is that they should look nice.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:This whole argument is stupid. There is nothing wrong with having an unpainted army. I don't know what moral or ethical boundary is being pushed by not. I would rather see everything in the same state (all primed, all bare, all painted) than nothing, but a game is a game as long as a I have an okay idea of WYSIWYG or enough familiarity with the army for it not to matter. I play Chaos and all of my squads are fully painted and WYSIWYG with matching Rhinos, even the ones I never use. I like them that way. Some people might have random color rhinos and random color troops (like the noob Blood Angel player at one of my FLGS who has each of his SMs painted as though they're from a different chapter.)
It does not matter if an army is painted or not. Noone dies or gets hurt if an army is not painted. You can care if you like, but the moment that anyone gets upset about an army being unpainted, you show immaturity. Please disagree with this statement and prove my point simultaneously.
"Game over man... were all gunna die! GAME OVER MAN!"
And I will agree with you to prove your point... On top of saying this, WHY???
How has this thread turned into a way to present no options to reinforce a certain perspective over and over, and over...
Yes you do and yes you don't, but either way I am right and you are wrong. What B.S. 
"Note"
And over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, etc...
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Post by: Uri Lee
This is my opinion (although I wouldn't seriously force it on someone else): citadelminiatures are MEANT to be painted, other wise they may as well be cheap,made in china tat, with a factory paintjob.I think it's ok to have things that havn't been painted YET, but models that will never be painted? oh no, not in my world.
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Post by: Velsharoon
Kilkrazy wrote:Here's an analogy.
Suppose you and a friend decide to have a barbecue party. You are to bring the drinks and he is to bring the food. You turn up with a case of cold beer, a nice chunky red wine and a medium-dry white for the ladies. He brings a family size microwave pizza and a box of pop tarts. Wouldn't you feel a bit put out?
It's a similar feeling for people who think the point of playing of toy soldiers is that they should look nice.
You cant cook those on a BBQ, but you can play a game with unpainted minis.
Personally I dont care, I prefer to play painted stuff but have nothing against unpainted, it just looks worse.
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Post by: carmachu
Kanluwen wrote:If you're going to do a miniatures game, you can take the time to paint.
It's not like you're playing 24/7, and in the most part of gaming groups they'll require SOME form of painting at least.
There's really no excuse either, given the easily accessible nature of sites like here with painting tips, articles devoted to painting/modelling and so forth.
The only way you can get as good as someone who has been painting for years is to PAINT FOR YEARS.
And if you're going to invest the money in miniatures, take some time and invest in hobby materials.
What if we really dont care to be good at painting? Or what if I just want to play and dont care about painting? WHy do I have to?
Hell I come from a time were basing wasnt even required. You say there is no excuse, but I dont see the reason why I have to.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Velsharoon wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Here's an analogy.
Suppose you and a friend decide to have a barbecue party. You are to bring the drinks and he is to bring the food. You turn up with a case of cold beer, a nice chunky red wine and a medium-dry white for the ladies. He brings a family size microwave pizza and a box of pop tarts. Wouldn't you feel a bit put out?
It's a similar feeling for people who think the point of playing of toy soldiers is that they should look nice.
You cant cook those on a BBQ, but you can play a game with unpainted minis.
... .
You can, actually but they won't taste very nice, which is part of my point. Automatically Appended Next Post: carmachu wrote:Kanluwen wrote:If you're going to do a miniatures game, you can take the time to paint.
It's not like you're playing 24/7, and in the most part of gaming groups they'll require SOME form of painting at least.
There's really no excuse either, given the easily accessible nature of sites like here with painting tips, articles devoted to painting/modelling and so forth.
The only way you can get as good as someone who has been painting for years is to PAINT FOR YEARS.
And if you're going to invest the money in miniatures, take some time and invest in hobby materials.
What if we really dont care to be good at painting? Or what if I just want to play and dont care about painting? WHy do I have to?
Hell I come from a time were basing wasnt even required. You say there is no excuse, but I dont see the reason why I have to.
You don't have to paint your figures, just don't expect people who like painted armies to like your unpainted one.
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Post by: Asmodai
Velsharoon wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Here's an analogy.
Suppose you and a friend decide to have a barbecue party. You are to bring the drinks and he is to bring the food. You turn up with a case of cold beer, a nice chunky red wine and a medium-dry white for the ladies. He brings a family size microwave pizza and a box of pop tarts. Wouldn't you feel a bit put out?
It's a similar feeling for people who think the point of playing of toy soldiers is that they should look nice.
You cant cook those on a BBQ, but you can play a game with unpainted minis.
Personally I dont care, I prefer to play painted stuff but have nothing against unpainted, it just looks worse.
I've cooked pop-tarts on the BBQ before.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
That sounds like a ridiculous amount of effort for some pop-tarts .
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Post by: Lorek
Yep, I'm an elitist when it comes to painting. I feel that if you don't paint, you might as well be playing with little cardboard chits, which isn't why I play. Even if you aren't very good, and just slop a few colors on with a nylon Testor's brush, that's good enough for me.
I've also never refused to play against an unpainted army, even in a pick-up game. I've even played against an army where about 1/4 of the models were just the base, nothing else. Wasn't nearly as much fun for me, but I made the accommodation. I do encourage people to paint their armies, especially when they say that they're just not good enough to paint.
There are two things main points for me about this topic:
1. Be nice to people. Make accommodations. Encourage them. Heck, if you're a non-painter playing a painter who isn't as good as you because you play more, give him pointers too. (Yeah, I know that there are at least two women reading this thread, but I'm using "he" as the gender-neutral pronoun here).
2. If you're not discriminatory about certain aspects of your life, you'll most often end up with a lower quality product/experience. I don't mean discriminatory about people based on race, gender, etc. I mean, for example, that I simply won't buy a stereo with even average sound quality; it has to be very good. I discriminate against the average stereo. We all discriminate to some degree or another, but it's become such a bad word in our culture that we fear to use it. Just look at Dashofpepper's post about bigotry; I'm a total bigot. I will go out of my way to treat people like white supremacists poorly, for example. We have all these labels flying around with heavy cultural connotations that prevent most of us from really looking at what they really mean.
So everyone here who is taking offense at other posts, and responding with loaded language, take a deep breath and another look at what we're talking about here. Don't try to provoke other people with your words. Heck, I'll even say this cheesy, overused piece of cliched tripe : "Build bridges, not walls."
You read it, you can't un-read it!! AH HA HA!
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Post by: GoFenris
Image removed. Man, you can't just put stuff like that up, GoFenris! Yuck. - Iorek Is this better? Its less graphic, static and more cartoon-y yet still conveys my message  ...and yes, I'm just as guilty.
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Post by: Hellfury
Frazzled wrote:Being old means you don't give a gak what other people think.
*nods head*
Amen to that.
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Post by: Noble713
Dashofpepper wrote:
Because playing with other people is FUN. I'm playing a 2500 point game today against an IG player, who is going to be using square pieces of newspaper to represent some of his vehicles. I *asked* him for the game. I want to see what mechanized IG can do. Not everyone has every model. Come down off your high horse.
You seem to have missed my point. Lunarhound presented a scenario that implied the player's ONLY options were to use unpainted proxies at their FLGS or to spend hundreds buying and painting a force that they're unsure about. If said player is *that* worried about the tactical feel of the force they are investing in, why can't they sacrifice one evening of social interaction and figure that stuff out on their own? Most people expect their opponents to have written army lists before they start putting figures on the table. That is a requirement for individual, personal, pre-game preparation. How is painting different?
You gotta square away your sh1t before you come to the field exercise. You should know that.
And I like my high horse: it improves my line of sight on the battlefield. *urges his skeletons forward*
I've played against unpainted/partially painted armies before, usually at someone's house (with the host fielding bare figures). I mostly play at GW stores. If I get solicited by multiple people for a game, I'll probably choose the opponent with the painted force over the one without, as long as it's not TFG. I'm not going to think the player with the unpainted army is sub-human because of it. They simply have different priorities than I do. Likewise, I'm going to attempt to optimize my own experience to be in-line with MY priorities, which is a table full of nice terrain and painted figures.
For me, personally, the "fun level" of gaming against people is not so high that the pursuit of it outweighs other considerations. Like I said earlier, I've avoided gaming for five whole years because I could not field a fully painted 1,500pt force of my army of choice. I'm just as content (if not more-so) playing computer games, but since I'm now running a Linux OS, which as a rule have terrible gaming options, I'm pretty much forced to get my gaming fix by pushing toy soldiers around on a table. If I owned an android that could play Warhammer I wouldn't leave my house but nobody makes those yet.
lorek wrote:"Build bridges, not walls."
Bridges make terrible fortifications.
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Post by: Crazy_Carnifex
Yeah, but you should see the suckers Faces when you blow 'em up.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
Iorek wrote:Yep, I'm an elitist when it comes to painting.
Given your post, I disagree with your self-assessment, as well as your belief that my bigotry accusation applies to you. You said that you like to paint your models, and that you like playing against people with painted models. There's nothing wrong with that, and I feel the same way you do.
Bigotry comes into play for the folks who paint their models, and posted here that they won't play with people who haven't painted theirs...the folks who believe that their use of hobby-time makes them better than someone else. That's my only issue. Its not painting vs. non-painting; I don't give a rat's ass about either side...but like I said; the first time that someone stands up, points at someone else, and says "I'm better than you, and I'm going to treat you poorly or refuse to interact with you because of it" I take issue.
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
Dashofpepper wrote:Bigotry comes into play for the folks who paint their models, and posted here that they won't play with people who haven't painted theirs...the folks who believe that their use of hobby-time makes them better than someone else.
So what you're saying is:
If someone doesn't want to spend their time painting, you have to respect their decision to do what they want with their time.
If someone doesn't want to spend their time playing against unpainted armies, they're a bigot and you're better than them.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
Ketara wrote:Sorry, but the, 'Ah, you don't respect the view of someone who doesn't respect yours so you're just as bad' thing doesn't work here. According to that kind of logic, we shouldn't lock kidnappers up, because then we're doing exactly the same thing as them by holding someone against their will.
NO.
Go and practice your pseudo-philosophical psychological paradoxes somewhere else please.
Orkeo...whatever, your lame catch 22 attempts have been answered already.
QFT Automatically Appended Next Post: Orkeosaurus, people are welcome to refuse playing against unpainted armies. You can make a little club called, "Wargamers who are better than you Inc.," get a storefront, get some tables, and refuse to let anyone in who doesn't paint their armies. That's your right and privilege.
But if you're going to go into a FLGS that doesn't have those rules, or a GW store, or a community store, or a hobby store...and bring your prejudice with you, then there's a real problem.
Then again, you already know that and are just trying your pseudo-philosophical physological paradox nonsense to try justifying your prejudice. Send me $50, and when I build a time machine, I'll send you back in time to the deep south so that you can practice your segregationist beliefs without equal-rights activists griefing you about it.
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
Dashofpepper wrote:Orkeosaurus, people are welcome to refuse playing against unpainted armies. You can make a little club called, "Wargamers who are better than you Inc.," get a storefront, get some tables, and refuse to let anyone in who doesn't paint their armies. That's your right and privilege.
I think it's telling that you automatically assume people won't play against an unpainted army because they're too busy declaring themselves the master race you and burning crosses, instead of simply refusing to play against unpainted armies because they dislike doing so.
But that's ridiculous! No one could simply dislike playing against an unpainted army. They must be hate-filled bigots! Not to mention prejudiced!
But if you're going to go into a FLGS that doesn't have those rules, or a GW store, or a community store, or a hobby store...and bring your prejudice with you, then there's a real problem.
Because those stores force everyone there to play against everyone else? It's not their right to decide they'd rather not play a game?
No one has to play a game with you, if they dislike doing so than they shouldn't feel compelled to do so. Especially not by your absurd wailing about the warhammer KKK. Not playing a game with someone isn't the same as driving people with unpainted armies out of another person's store.
Then again, you already know that and are just trying your pseudo-philosophical physological paradox nonsense to try justifying your prejudice.
Only one of my three armies is painted, I myself have never refused a game based on their army being unpainted. I guess that's the risk you take when you attack a person instead of their arguments.
Send me $50, and when I build a time machine, I'll send you back in time to the deep south so that you can practice your segregationist beliefs without equal-rights activists griefing you about it.
I'm sure the people who suffered at the hands of racists in the deep south would appreciate you comparing your situation to theirs.
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Post by: carmachu
Kilkrazy wrote:
You don't have to paint your figures, just don't expect people who like painted armies to like your unpainted one.
SO your being elitest about the hobby then? It has room for all kinds- all rounders, painters, modelers, players.....
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Post by: Dashofpepper
Orkeosaurus wrote:
Only one of my three armies is painted, I myself have never refused a game based on their army being unpainted. I guess that's the risk you take when you attack a person instead of their arguments.
Says the guy who multi-quotes and responds to several posts without anything constructive? "Responses" are not all created equally. If I say "Do you like oranges?" and you answer "Trees are brown!" You have responded to my question without saying anything. I can't really argue or debate anything with you here because you "respond" to my points by saying nothing, and doing a poor job of ridiculing me.
Pot, meet kettle.
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Post by: with an iron fist
Wrexasaur wrote:(...)If you actually cannot take the time to paint your army over the years that you own it, you are pretty much required to state why; (...)
No, people really aren't required to state anything - at least not in the United States though they try really hard to force people to do things there. I have seen it, endured it, and destroyed it. Now I shall destroy more of it.
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Post by: Crazy_Carnifex
 .....................................................................................
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Post by: Lorek
Crazy_Carnifex wrote: .....................................................................................
If you have nothing to add to the discussion, please stop spamming the thread.
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Post by: Beerforthebeergod
This may've already been stated but...this is one reason why when choosing my Chaos force I picked the Black Legion. Easy to paint and black looks good on anything, same reason my roommate chose the Iron Hands for Space Marines. Are we lazy? No. Are we cheap? That depends...is it better to spend upwards of $30 on new paint or a Daemon Prince/Rhino? It depends on your priorities. All I know is that I care more if you know the rules and your codex than how many coats of finish you used.
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Post by: GoFenris
Iorek wrote:Crazy_Carnifex wrote: .....................................................................................
If you have nothing to add to the discussion, please stop spamming the thread.
At this point is Crazy_Carnifex's comment any less relevant than anyone else's? Although admittedly entertaining. Is this spam, too? Better post something on topic... I'm also a painting elitist, fascist, bigot or whatever else I've been labeled thus far on this thread.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
GoFenris, I haven't called anyone out by name here, and no one has called you anything...but you're self identifying with some words that I've tossed out.
Don't pretend that you get to feel persecuted if you're willing to identify yourself as the guy who will tell someone that you won't play with them because they don't appreciate the hobby as much as you do.
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
Dashofpepper wrote:Says the guy who multi-quotes and responds to several posts without anything constructive? "Responses" are not all created equally. If I say "Do you like oranges?" and you answer "Trees are brown!" You have responded to my question without saying anything. I can't really argue or debate anything with you here because you "respond" to my points by saying nothing, and doing a poor job of ridiculing me.
Nice cover for your mistake.
I think you missed my response, so I'll write it again for your benefit: Why do you assume that everyone who doesn't play against unpainted armies does so because they don't wish to associate with those they see as inferior, and not because they simply dislike playing against unpainted armies?
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Post by: Dashofpepper
Orkeosaurus wrote:
Why do you assume that everyone who doesn't play against unpainted armies does so because they don't wish to associate with those they see as inferior, and not because they simply dislike playing against unpainted armies?
And why do you feel the need to make vast generalizations to attempt painting someone in a bad light? You're clever enough to try twisting my words into something negative, I'm going to assume that you're doing it on purpose. Orkeosaurus, see my previous post. You don't actually contribute anything here except for inept attempts to twist someone else's words into new meaning.
Since your next post is likely to mimic your last post in your attempt to put me down, I'll play your game to play for public opinion: Don't put words in my mouth. I haven't assumed anything about everyone as you accuse me of; specific people here have noted that they don't play against unpainted armies, and have gone on to list various reasons why; ranging from accusing the owners of such of being lazy, uncommitted, disrespectful....
That's the audience for my harsh words.
But then again, you already knew that, and are just playing your normal game. Buzz off.
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
Dashofpepper wrote:And why do you feel the need to make vast generalizations to attempt painting someone in a bad light? You're clever enough to try twisting my words into something negative, I'm going to assume that you're doing it on purpose. Orkeosaurus, see my previous post. You don't actually contribute anything here except for inept attempts to twist someone else's words into new meaning.
Since your next post is likely to mimic your last post in your attempt to put me down, I'll play your game to play for public opinion: Don't put words in my mouth. I haven't assumed anything about everyone as you accuse me of; specific people here have noted that they don't play against unpainted armies, and have gone on to list various reasons why; ranging from accusing the owners of such of being lazy, uncommitted, disrespectful....
That's the audience for my harsh words.
But then again, you already knew that, and are just playing your normal game. Buzz off.
In that case what did you mean by these?
Dashofpepper wrote:Short of that, if someone is criticizing someone for lack of paint, or not wanting to play with them, or segregating them out of their group because they think they're better...hammer to the nuts for you.
Dashofpepper wrote:Some of you folks need to listen to yourselves - the idea that you'd bar someone from playing a GAME with you because they haven't spent as much time painting as you have is ridiculous. This isn't the southern United States in 1960...keep the black kids out of my school, and you're going to turn around and bring something else offensive?
Dashofpepper wrote:I draw the line at the idea of refusing to play against someone without an unpainted army.
ANYTIME someone is willing to draw a line, put someone on the other side of it, and then say, "I'm better than that group" I take offense and dig in.
Dashofpepper wrote:Its when a store *doesn't* have that policy, and some elitist ahole will walk into it with a superior attitude and judge those without painted armies as a lower lifeform that they're unwilling to play a game with. THAT is the problem. That's the prejudice.
Dashofpepper wrote:Bigotry comes into play for the folks who paint their models, and posted here that they won't play with people who haven't painted theirs...the folks who believe that their use of hobby-time makes them better than someone else.
You make no distinction between people who don't wish to play games against unpainted armies, and people who actually think others are somehow inferior because they don't paint. Presumably, because you assume they're the same.
I'm not playing a game here. You're coming into this thread declaring people to be bigoted without justification. Then you call me bigoted, and when you realize I'm not defending my own position, you accuse me of trolling. As if no one could seriously call you out on your damn crusade.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
Orkeosaurus wrote:
You make no distinction between people who don't wish to play games against unpainted armies, and people who actually think others are somehow inferior because they don't paint.
My mistake, I originally thought that you were being deliberately malicious. I was wrong...you just haven't the ability to read and comprehend, as demonstrated by your words here and the large body of evidence contrary to what you wrote. I'll stop trying to illuminate your path, its wasted effort on my part.
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
My ability to read is fine.
"Bigotry comes into play for the folks who paint their models, and posted here that they won't play with people who haven't painted theirs" is the comment I first responded to, I don't see anything I've missed about that sentence. You are calling people who refuse to play unpainted armies bigots.
If you didn't mean to call people bigots on account of not wishing to play against unpainted armies, you should have been more careful with what you said.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
with an iron fist wrote:Wrexasaur wrote:(...)If you actually cannot take the time to paint your army over the years that you own it, you are pretty much required to state why; (...)
No, people really aren't required to state anything - at least not in the United States though they try really hard to force people to do things there. I have seen it, endured it, and destroyed it. Now I shall destroy more of it.
Having a huge problem with it after I have played numerous amounts of games with you over the past few years... WHO CARES, play someone else now. America what now??? JHC get a grip man, it is a WARGAME...GET A GRIP!!!
On that note, I think this thread has fizzled and it really can't go much further.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
carmachu wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:
You don't have to paint your figures, just don't expect people who like painted armies to like your unpainted one.
SO your being elitest about the hobby then? It has room for all kinds- all rounders, painters, modelers, players.....
It's obvious the whole history of miniature wargaming is about playing with painted figures.
If people want to play with unpainted figures, they are in some sense engaging in a different hobby.
As such there is no more elitism about wanting to play with painted figures than there is in preferring cricket to rugby, or ice cream to profiteroles.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Or tacos to burritos, the list is never-ending and infinite at the Taco Bell OF THE FUTURE,THE future, the future, future, future....
"Note"
( )
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Post by: Wolfstan
It's interesting that myself, Luna & Dashofpepper are seen to be acting in the same way as painters, but on the flip side. I can't speak for the other two (but the probably think the same thing), but this is wrong.
My frustration with people who have a negative view on playing unpainted armies, is based on a feeling of it being illogical. If we were talking about TFG, or people who can't be arsed to present WYSIWYG models, who don't know the rules or are beardy, I could understand that. Their actions do impact on a game. An unpainted, fully assembled, WYSIWYG army controlled by a keen gamer, who knows the rules is not the same. It may not look nice in your eyes or mine, but it isn't going to affect the game play.
Further to this, if you look at our past comments, none of us have said we wouldn't play someone. The "for painted models" posters have made comments say that they blantantly avoid playing unpainted armies through to posters so blantant about it, but still choosing, in their mind, to play the gamer with painted models, when presented with a choice of gamers to go up against.
At the end of the day, I'm not going to change my stance as I feel that there is nothing to change. I'm open minded, so what is there to change? That's not arrogance, it's the simple truth. I'm sure the "for painted models" brigade will say that I've just proved I am arrogant by making this statement, but as I said, my point is based on logic, yours is based on your own belief. Which isn't a wrong thing, it just wouldn't stand up in a court of law.
Judge: You refused to play this person because?
He had the nerve to turn up with an unpainted army, which m'lord he's had for over a year now. All that unpainted plastic just unsettles me and puts me off my game.
or
Well m'lord he's been caught cheating on numerous occasions now and just won't stop. It's becoming a nightmare, you have to double check every thing they do to see if they've chested again.
Perhaps this will raise a chuckle and put it into perspective, who knows
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Post by: NAVARRO
Soooooo... someone who doesnt want to play against proxies/grey swarms is painter elitist, bigot, intolerant and all kinds of nasty things its TFG!... Good to know some of you guys are so inteligent and so fast on labelling others...
Couldnt care less of how fraked up your brains are but its ridicule to the extreme.
On that note I think people who prefer xbox instead of ps3 are elitist snobs too or the people who like cocacola instead of pepsi just plain morons nothing to do with personal taste... they are the devil because they like diferent things than me and do it diferently... and if they reject to drink from the can and prefer bottles I think they all should burn in hell. Just brilliant!
Orkeosaurus dont waste your time... the kind of mentality showed will not change and the only thing you will get is personal attacks... you know these guys you call you intolerant are very tolerant.
Then theres the silly situation that if someone aproaches me to play with unpainted stuff I'm stuck to play him or be unpolite and snobish... sure! things do work that way for some. its all black and white in your world... theres no middleground were you have to enforce your intelect and dodge both playing with him and being rude...
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Post by: Wrexasaur
As long as no one tries to stab me... we can play a perfectly awesome game. That it is all I really ask, yes all I ask, I can provide my "other" necessities.
Everyone has a mental footrub, and eats a piece of pizza, if you dont like pizza the pizza is covered in aphids.
"Note"
At least I don't cover your mental pizza with spinal juice eating leeches... Hmmm... not bad, I have been INSPIRED!!!
1941
Post by: Wolfstan
NAVARRO wrote:
On that note I think people who prefer xbox instead of ps3 are elitist snobs too or the people who like cocacola instead of pepsi just plain morons nothing to do with personal taste... they are the devil because they like diferent things than me and do it diferently... and if they reject to drink from the can and prefer bottles I think they all should burn in hell. Just brilliant!
You see, someone tries to explain things in a clear way and you have to go and have an over excited hissy fit. The quote above is very true, I'm just as bad as the next person for making choices based on my own preferences, however they affect only me. However the painted / unpainted argument does affect others, even if they aren't aware of it.
There are comments in the many pages of this post, that use words like lazy, B.S, no excuse to back up the painted stance. I can understand artistic comments about the board looks nice with two fully painted armies on it, but using lazy, B.S, no excuse as arguments puts you into the "elitist snobs" bracket, because you are stating an opinion on why someone isn't painting their models.
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Post by: Uri Lee
I think, personaly, that playing a game against someone who hasn't painted a single peice of their army, could be likened to plugging a high definition playstation3 with state of the art gaming graphics, into a black and white T.V. Yeah sure, you still get the gameplay, but its just not gonna be as much fun(for me). So I can totaly understand someone saying that they would only play with and against painted models. The models are designed to be aestheticaly pleasing(once painted) just as the codex is designed to give good game play. I woulkd take a guess that most people who buy citadel miniatures DO actualy appreciate the aesthetics, othewise one might as well play with tiddlywinks.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Wolfstan wrote:NAVARRO wrote:
On that note I think people who prefer xbox instead of ps3 are elitist snobs too or the people who like cocacola instead of pepsi just plain morons nothing to do with personal taste... they are the devil because they like diferent things than me and do it diferently... and if they reject to drink from the can and prefer bottles I think they all should burn in hell. Just brilliant!
You see, someone tries to explain things in a clear way and you have to go and have an over excited hissy fit. The quote above is very true, I'm just as bad as the next person for making choices based on my own preferences, however they affect only me. However the painted / unpainted argument does affect others, even if they aren't aware of it.
There are comments in the many pages of this post, that use words like lazy, B.S, no excuse to back up the painted stance. I can understand artistic comments about the board looks nice with two fully painted armies on it, but using lazy, B.S, no excuse as arguments puts you into the "elitist snobs" bracket, because you are stating an opinion on why someone isn't painting their models.
I only read your post after I posted  I was aiming for the Dashofpepper Orkeosaurus debate.
1941
Post by: Wolfstan
That'll be the old time displacement / warp delay / cross over that they talk about then No worries
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Post by: NAVARRO
Sorry mate, I do take more time to post and check read than the normal person since english is not my language So sometimes I post and theres new replies etc.
Yes I agree in what you say about expressing opinion about someone army if not asked for... I never do that, in fact as I stated earlier on this gigantic thread I only give my opinion about it if someones asks me to... and even then I most of the times sugar coat it...
Yet most people here make random pointless generalizations about me being this and that just based on the sole fact I avoid playing unpainted armies... and thats ridiculous... also i find the attempt to put labels on people and arrange them inside silly boxes kind of pointless.
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