So I think I may have been handicapping myself further than just pushing robots would indicate.

I've been playing that if a necron squad is swept, it is removed from play.
Including the downed necrons.

After re-reading the codex and the rulebook, it seems to me that I've been doing this wrong.
The appropriate sections:
   Rulebook: "Unless differently specified, no Save or other special rule that normally reduces the damage suffered can save the unit at this stage;"
   Codex: "Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged."
Reading those together, it seems like that a swept necron unit would just hit the table and WBB next turn (if normal WBB requirements are met) as WBB 'differently specifies' that 'otherwise be removed as a casualty' models can WBB

So, have I been playing this wrong?

WBB is a special rule.

It does not specify that it can save necrons from sweeping advance, so it does not! (it would have to specifically mention sweeping advance in order to "specify otherwise")

There have been threads on this before with everything to be said said. Your points are not new. Read those threads for more information.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/239634.page#711680

That is an example of such a thread.

See, you've got a valid point besides the fact that the Necron rule doesn't specifically mention sweeping advance.

"Unless differently specified"

The codex doesn't specifically mention sweeping advance allows WBB, so I've always just treated it, that WBB doesn't happen on a sweeping advance.

My search-fu failed me, thanks for the link.

I still think that the problem here is is that people are being overzealous with the application of sweeping advance.

"No save or special rule that normally reduces the damage suffered can save the unit at this stage."

We're good on that. WBB isn't saving or reducing damage suffered on a necron unit. It dies as normal and doesn't reduce the damage sufferd or save the unit. You've destroyed the necron unit, and they fall shattered to pieces. There's not an actual conflict between WBB and sweeping advance because they don't contradict.

Additionally, the phrase, "Unless differently specified" doesn't mean that a codex needs to call out the phrase "applies to USR: Sweeping advance." That's an obscene request; codexes aren't written in that language. There is an example here of codex language written in such a fashion to directly overrule the BRB; in such cases, codex rules take precedent.
BRB: When a model in a unit dies, remove it from play. When a unit dies, remove it from play.
Necron Codex: Unit dies, do not remove it from play. Lay it down on its side.

The necron codex is specifically overruling a universal rule by caveating exactly what treatment to give destroyed models and units. You can't ignore a codex' rules in favor of the BRB when the codex is being more specific about how to deal with a situation.

The phrase, "Unless differently specified" means exactly that: Do X unless codex directs you to do Y. The rule does not say, "Do X unless codex directs you to do Y and specifically not X." Requiring the necron codex, or any codex to make specific calls into the BRB for interpretations of USRs is unrealistic; they aren't written that way. I'm a fan of analogies, so here's a perfect one:

Father says to his son: "Take out the trash every morning before breakfast unless your mother tells you otherwise."
One morning while the son is getting ready to take out the trash, the mother says "Don't worry about that right now, help me make breakfast."
The father says to the son, "Why didn't you take out the trash before breakfast this morning?"
The son says, "Father, mother told me to help her make breakfast instead."
The father says to the son, "Did the words 'Do not take out the trash this morning before breakfast' come out of her mouth?

Get where this is going? The sweeping advance interpretation that you guys are throwing out is a false dilemma.

Belphegor wrote:After re-reading the codex and the rulebook, it seems to me that I've been doing this wrong.
The appropriate sections:
Rulebook: "Unless differently specified, no Save or other special rule that normally reduces the damage suffered can save the unit at this stage;"
Codex: "Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged."
Reading those together, it seems like that a swept necron unit would just hit the table and WBB next turn (if normal WBB requirements are met) as WBB 'differently specifies' that 'otherwise be removed as a casualty' models can WBB

That means that it MUST specifically state "This can save necron models from a sweeping advance." to save them from a sweeping advance.



EDIT- Quoted wrong on poriginal post.




-Orkishly

In the 4th ed book, the rule actually mentions WBB and how it does not save necrons in any way. The phrasing is almost identical, except that the removed that bit of reminder text to save a bit of space. They figured that saying "unless otherwise specified" was enough for people to figure out that WBB does not work. Sadly, they were quite wrong.

Dashofpepper wrote:I still think that the problem here is is that people are being overzealous with the application of sweeping advance.

"No save or special rule that normally reduces the damage suffered can save the unit at this stage."

We're good on that. WBB isn't saving or reducing damage suffered on a necron unit. It dies as normal and doesn't reduce the damage sufferd or save the unit. You've destroyed the necron unit, and they fall shattered to pieces. There's not an actual conflict between WBB and sweeping advance because they don't contradict.

When you allow them to use their WBB special rule, it is reducing the damage because the overall effect is that you have more models on the field. Irregardless, it finishes "for them the battle is over. How are you complying with that part if you give them further rolls (roles as well) in the battle?

Additionally, the phrase, "Unless differently specified" doesn't mean that a codex needs to call out the phrase "applies to USR: Sweeping advance." That's an obscene request; codexes aren't written in that language. There is an example here of codex language written in such a fashion to directly overrule the BRB; in such cases, codex rules take precedent.
BRB: When a model in a unit dies, remove it from play. When a unit dies, remove it from play.
Necron Codex: Unit dies, do not remove it from play. Lay it down on its side.

No, that is exactly what it means, how many different ways can it be iterated? It must make a specific exception. (SA is not a USR...)

The necron codex is specifically overruling a universal rule by caveating exactly what treatment to give destroyed models and units. You can't ignore a codex' rules in favor of the BRB when the codex is being more specific about how to deal with a situation.

Actually it does not overrule it. Its specific rules overruling general. So generally, when necrons are destroyed they are layed down instead. More specifically, during a sweeping advance no model may use a special rule to save itself unless it specifies differently. WBB does not say that it is exempt from this more specific situation, so it is not.

The phrase, "Unless differently specified" means exactly that: Do X unless codex directs you to do Y. The rule does not say, "Do X unless codex directs you to do Y and specifically not X." Requiring the necron codex, or any codex to make specific calls into the BRB for interpretations of USRs is unrealistic; they aren't written that way.

Get where this is going? The sweeping advance interpretation that you guys are throwing out is a false dilemma.

That is what the language calls for. More specific rules override general, and that statement makes sure nothing can stop the models from being removed unless it says otherwise. Its a trump card. You have to have the anti-trump to beat it.

Yes, the models are removed, and then they're put laid back down on the table, awaiting a potential we'll be back roll. Both rules are satisfied, case closed.

One of the things I don't understand is why people bring up the 4th edition/5th edition as a cause for this not to work. The omission of the text that denies we'll be back seems to me that, if anything, We'll be back MAY be used; especially since the rules act on different triggers. It's almost as if the writers *gasp* changed the rules for 5th edition.

How are the models removed and then put back down?

That's not how WBB works at all. Its an "instead of" not "after" removing.

The only part of your post that is accurate, imo, is "Yes, the models are removed".

WBB calls for the models to not be removed at all. There is no way that removing them and putting them back follows the rules at all.

Oh god, not this again

-goes into the corner and cries-

Cliffs Notes: WBB doesn't work against Sweeping Advance.

Belphegor, you've been playing it correctly. Nuff said?

Belphegor wrote:So I think I may have been handicapping myself further than just pushing robots would indicate.

I've been playing that if a necron squad is swept, it is removed from play.
Including the downed necrons.

<BIG SNIPPAGE>

So, have I been playing this wrong?

WBB cannot save you from SA.

Feel free to check the other threads for supporting information.

Dracos wrote:

Actually it does not overrule it. Its specific rules overruling general. So generally, when necrons are destroyed they are layed down instead. More specifically, during a sweeping advance no model may use a special rule to save itself unless it specifies differently. WBB does not say that it is exempt from this more specific situation, so it is not.

Like I said in my first post, you're going about the entire thing backwards. The general rule is that when a model dies, you remove it from play. When a unit dies, it goes away.
There's a specific necron rule that says you don't do that; you lay them down to represent that they're destroyed and awaiting a WBB attempt.

You can look up supporting information in other threads all day, but when they're using a flawed premise, you end up with the same results. Here's an example...

"In 4th edition, SA mentioned WBB rolls. Therefore, we can assume that they intended it in 5th edition even though they specifically took that line out of the rulebook to save space."

1. I didn't play 40k back in 4th edition. I don't care what the rules said back then, or how they compare to 5th. I only know this edition, and this edition is the only one in play, and the only one that matters.
2. When you assume it makes an ass out of you and an ass out of me. Don't do it. You're not GW, you don't get to presume you know why they changed a rule. For all you know, they removed the WBB clause from sweeping advance because they want WBB to still work. That makes MUCH more sense than they're trying to save space in their book.

Don't get me wrong here...I don't play Necron, but it really irks me that people form their judgements about a rule based on their assumptions that something has more meaning than is written on the page. I think that if you read the rule for sweeping advance, then read the WBB entry, and DO NOT TRY EXTRAPOLATING meaning....its pretty clear that necron guys get a WBB.

Dashofpepper wrote:its pretty clear that necron guys get a WBB.

Considering it is Super Clear they don't, I suggest making an appointment with your Optician asap.

Just tell me, what part of "NO SPECIAL RULE CAN SAVE THEM" don't you understand? WBB is a special rule that could save them, so is ignored.

And in 5th edition rules, if a special rule does not specifically mention Sweeping Advance, then it affords no protection from SA. Now, your turn. Show us where WBB specifically mentions that it protects Necrons from Sweeping Advance............... Doesn't say that, does it?

End of discussion.

You don't get a save for sweeping advance casualties, which means that, unless you have a res orb inside of 6", you're not getting a WBB roll according to RAW.

Dronze wrote:You don't get a save for sweeping advance casualties, which means that, unless you have a res orb inside of 6", you're not getting a WBB roll according to RAW.

YOU DON'T GET A WBB ROLL ANYWAY.

Even with a res orb nearby, you don't get WBB. The unit is gone. Period.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Like I said in my first post, you're going about the entire thing backwards. The general rule is that when a model dies, you remove it from play. When a unit dies, it goes away.
There's a specific necron rule that says you don't do that; you lay them down to represent that they're destroyed and awaiting a WBB attempt.

You can look up supporting information in other threads all day, but when they're using a flawed premise, you end up with the same results. Here's an example...

"In 4th edition, SA mentioned WBB rolls. Therefore, we can assume that they intended it in 5th edition even though they specifically took that line out of the rulebook to save space."

1. I didn't play 40k back in 4th edition. I don't care what the rules said back then, or how they compare to 5th. I only know this edition, and this edition is the only one in play, and the only one that matters.
2. When you assume it makes an ass out of you and an ass out of me. Don't do it. You're not GW, you don't get to presume you know why they changed a rule. For all you know, they removed the WBB clause from sweeping advance because they want WBB to still work. That makes MUCH more sense than they're trying to save space in their book.

Don't get me wrong here...I don't play Necron, but it really irks me that people form their judgements about a rule based on their assumptions that something has more meaning than is written on the page. I think that if you read the rule for sweeping advance, then read the WBB entry, and DO NOT TRY EXTRAPOLATING meaning....its pretty clear that necron guys get a WBB.

SA rule says that:

Unless differently specified, no Save or other special rule that normally reduces the damage suffered can save the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting.

WBB IS a special rule.
WBB DOES NOT specifically says that it trumps SA.

Therefore, WBB does not work with SA. Theres no ifs or buts here, this is not based in 4th edition rules or any other obscure RAI interpretation, its based solelly on the BRB and the Necron Codex RAW (but if you wan't to see an example on how a special rule would be worded to work with SA check the SM codex).

Dashofpepper wrote:2. When you assume it makes an ass out of you and an ass out of me. Don't do it. You're not GW, you don't get to presume you know why they changed a rule. For all you know, they removed the WBB clause from sweeping advance because they want WBB to still work. That makes MUCH more sense than they're trying to save space in their book.

Don't get me wrong here...I don't play Necron, but it really irks me that people form their judgements about a rule based on their assumptions that something has more meaning than is written on the page. I think that if you read the rule for sweeping advance, then read the WBB entry, and DO NOT TRY EXTRAPOLATING meaning....its pretty clear that necron guys get a WBB.

Ok, I'm sorry for trying to justify my answer by taking the way a rule used to be phrased instead of using a more relevant and sane approach like rambling on about a mom asking her kid to make breakfast.

Now, no assumptions or extrapolations of any kind.

SA says that no special rule that reduces damage may save the unit unless otherwise specified.

WBB does not mention SA so it does not specify otherwise, which brings the argument to "Is wbb a special rule that reduces damage?"

YES Yes, it is. Of course it is! You take a model that would have been destroyed and lay it on its side, where it remains in play, instead. I don't know how you could possibly be literate enough to read the WBB rule and not be able to understand that it is a special rule that reduces damage.

Seeing as it is a special rule that reduces damage, SA has something to say about it. SA says it does not work.

That's what you guys aren't keying in on...

SA doesn't allow any rule that reduces damage or saves a unit.

WBB doesn't reduce damage or save a unit. It gets wiped out, dead and gone. Turn ends, necrons are dead. Next turn...unique situation involving a WBB.

You can sweeping advance and wipe a unit out, and you've done everything required by Sweeping advance. The next turn, completely out of the assault cycle, necrons get a WBB roll if parameters are met, and they do everything required by sweeping advance.

You're trying to apply the WBB rule to mean something that it doesn't so that you can make it fit into sweeping advance. That's the problem; codexes are full of unique rules that don't fit into the nice, neat package that the BRB would make. That's why there are rules governing how to make them mesh.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The argument comes down to this: Does WBB attempt to reduce damage or save a necron unit? Absolutely not. The unit is wiped out and dead. WBB kicks in next turn to try reincarnating them; its outside the realm of the generalized rule about how to deal with things that are killed.

Dash, seriously, you are WRONG.

WBB does reduce the damage, just not right away. Again, look at the Space Marine Codex and the Wording of ATSKNF. It specificaly mentions SA. WBB does not, so it cannot Help them.

Let's look at this another way...

WBB allows necron units that have suffered wounds to regain those wounds (similar to regeneration). In those cases that models are removed from play without suffering wounds, like Instant Death and Sweeping Advance, WBB has no effect.

don_mondo wrote:And in 5th edition rules, if a special rule does not specifically mention Sweeping Advance, then it affords no protection from SA. Now, your turn. Show us where WBB specifically mentions that it protects Necrons from Sweeping Advance............... Doesn't say that, does it?

End of discussion.

And like I said earlier....you are INTERPRETING the rule to mean that. You just made a rule up. The rulebook does NOT say, "Unless a codex rule specifically says that it may take saves against sweeping advances, it may not." It says, Unless otherwise specified....your stuff is dead and gone.

Codexes aren't written in the language of the former. Its an absurd request to ask for it, and an abuse of English language. I've given an example of this before and here it is again.

Father to son: "Unless your mother tells you otherwise, take out the trash immediately after breakfast."
Breakfast ends, and as the son goes to take out the trash, the mother says, "Come help me do the dishes instead."

The kid has just been otherwise directed. The mother didn't need to say, "Do not take out the trash immediately after breakfast, come help me with the dishes instead," rather she gave counter-instructions for what to do after breakfast. She otherwise specified. What you're asking for is preposterous and illogical in terms of language.


And finally, its irrelevant. WBB doesn't save or reduce damage to a necron unit. It just attempts to reincarnate them into a unit the following turn. WBB otherwise specifies how to treat dead units.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:Dash, seriously, you are WRONG.

WBB does reduce the damage, just not right away. Again, look at the Space Marine Codex and the Wording of ATSKNF. It specificaly mentions SA. WBB does not, so it cannot Help them.

You're interpreting and stretching things a LOOOONG way.

Could you point me to the necron codex or the BRB to the section about reducing damage but not right away? If you believe that "Otherwise specified" requires such absurd language as "By the way, this applies to sweeping advances too," then it is perfectly reasonable to require your explanation to point to the necron codex or BRB explaining in precise words, "WBB is a one-turn delayed reduction in damage."

Because it isn't. It flies in the face of the very idea. I was going to whip out the dictionary and quote "reduce" to show a decrease in something, which isn't what happens. WBB doesn't decrease the damage the necron warriors take. They take it all, and get wiped out. No reductions were involved. The next turn, something completely different happens. There is NO SUCH THING as taking something that happened in one player phase, and resolving the effects of it a turn or two later. You resolve all things either immediately or at the end of a phase.

ATSKNF *specifically states* it works against SA. WBB does not.

YOU ARE WRONG. Admit it, move on and relax.

WBB attempts to remove damage - SA removes the whole unit, by not removing the whole unit you have reduced the damage the unit has taken. Sheesh. If you can't understand THAT you have serious literacy issues.

nosferatu1001 wrote:ATSKNF *specifically states* it works against SA. WBB does not.

YOU ARE WRONG. Admit it, move on and relax.

WBB attempts to remove damage - SA removes the whole unit, by not removing the whole unit you have reduced the damage the unit has taken. Sheesh. If you can't understand THAT you have serious literacy issues.

Feel free to read above regarding turns, phases, the fact that WBB doesn't actually reduce damage, then call yourself names and go back to school to address your own literacy problem. Sheesh.

Dashofpepper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ATSKNF *specifically states* it works against SA. WBB does not.

YOU ARE WRONG. Admit it, move on and relax.

WBB attempts to remove damage - SA removes the whole unit, by not removing the whole unit you have reduced the damage the unit has taken. Sheesh. If you can't understand THAT you have serious literacy issues.

Feel free to read above regarding turns, phases, the fact that WBB doesn't actually reduce damage, then call yourself names and go back to school to address your own literacy problem. Sheesh.

Wow, and here I was thinking that having 3 necrons removed instead of 11 was reducing damage. Who knew.

No offence intended, but that is Banana Logic to the Extreme.

Sigh.............
Dash, you're wrong. Don't know how to say it any plainer. Examples, precedence, rules, all disagree with your stance. You can keep saying "yaeh, but..." till you're blue in the face. Won't change reality. And reality in 40K is that WBB does not protect a unit against Sweeping Advance. Deal with it and move on.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Feel free to read above regarding turns, phases, the fact that WBB doesn't actually reduce damage, then call yourself names and go back to school to address your own literacy problem. Sheesh.

SA says that the models afected by it have to be removed from play and can take no further part in the battle, WBB tries to save them from this horrible fate, how is that not reducing damage?!

Seriously, just admit that you are wrong and move along.

-Jumps on the bandwaggon-
You are Incorrect! Deal with it and move along!

And again Gwar, you can't stretch damage resolution for the same model across turns. Can you show me in the rulebook where you can?

If you take down 11 necron warriors, you took down 11. Not 9 later, 11 now. Necrons have their unique rules, which let them attempt to reincarnate or recreate a dead unit through WBB, but it doesn't reduce damage....they took all their damage, and obviously died; this is why we're having this debate in the first place.

And don_mondo, as explained earlier....you can quote previous arguments, but when the previous argument is based on flawed logic and interpreted/stretched rules, the base you're standing on is shaky to begin with. That's why these threads keep popping up - there is no clear answer, and only some people trying to shout louder than the next person.

No, these arguments pop up because some people can't read.

The Necrons removed via SA take NO FURTHER PART. They cannot come back from being Dead Via WBB because they can take NO FURTHER PART.

Okay, well even though this "discussion" won't go anywhere, I might as well try to add in part of what I think Dash is trying to say:



1) Sweeping Advance says "If the winner's total is equal or greater...the falling back unit is destroyed...The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage" As in, nothing will stop them from getting killed

2) Then, WBB says "Any Necron otherwise removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and laid on it's side to show that it's damaged" Saying that once their destroyed (nothing like ATSKNF or saves saving them from being destroyed) they are laid on their side.

3) Then, assuming that there is another unit (or Tomb Spider) and a Res Orb (weapon ignored their armor save) in range, they would then roll a WBB roll.

Gwar! wrote:No, these arguments pop up because some people can't read.

The Necrons removed via SA take NO FURTHER PART. They cannot come back from being Dead Via WBB because they can take NO FURTHER PART.

Correct. Unless its been specified that they do otherwise. And they have.

Don't bother responding with your "Necron codex doesn't specifically say SA" line, because the English language has you wrong on this one; I even gave you some nice analogies.

There is a really, really clear answer. WBB does not say it works against SA, so it doesn't.

The standard required has been set by ATSKNF. It *specifically states* that SA does not work. WBB does not.

WBB DOES reduce damage. It stops you removing models and keeps them on the table. In a more literal sense the unit still exists* when SA requires that the unit no longer exists. This by definition must be les damage.

*please, argue that damaged necrons are not part of the same unit. We'll all find that argument as hilariously ill founded as this one.

Dash, let me ask you one thing:

How can a rule that did not allow WBB in 4th ed, which has the EXACT SAME TEXT in 5th suddenly allow it?

nosferatu1001 wrote:There is a really, really clear answer. WBB does not say it works against SA, so it doesn't.

The standard required has been set by ATSKNF. It *specifically states* that SA does not work. WBB does not.

WBB DOES reduce damage. It stops you removing models and keeps them on the table. In a more literal sense the unit still exists* when SA requires that the unit no longer exists. This by definition must be les damage.

*please, argue that damaged necrons are not part of the same unit. We'll all find that argument as hilariously ill founded as this one.

Hey...there's a really, REALLY clear answer. WBB doesn't NEED to say that it works against SA. All it NEEDS to do is specify a behavior different than what happens during the normal course of play (model/unit loses combat, is destroyed, removed from play, no attempt to save or reduce damage allowed). WBB doesn't violate those principles, and provides the requisite description of otherwise specified behavior: Instead of removing from play, lay the model on its side to represent that it is destroyed.

BRB: General rule encompassing behavior.
Codex: Specific rule dictating behavioral change that contradicts BRB.

Result? You follow the Codex.

As for your idea that WBB DOES reduce damage, I'm actually going to break out the dictionary for you because you're failing so badly.

Reduce: "to bring down to a smaller extent, size, amount, number, etc" So says dictionary.com. WBB does not affect the damage that a necron squad takes. If you do 10 wounds to a necron unit, a reduction in damage would bring down to a smaller extent the number of wounds that they take. It does not. They take full damage, presumably are wiped out, and the turn ends.

I suppose that if you and some other folks on here want to create you own language so that you can interpret things however you want and be right, you're welcome to, but none of it works in English. Or French. Or German. Or Chinese. I don't really know any other ones. :(







Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:Dash, let me ask you one thing:

How can a rule that did not allow WBB in 4th ed, which has the EXACT SAME TEXT in 5th suddenly allow it?

Gwar! I answered this earlier:

1. I didn't play in 4th edition, I don't care what 4th edition said.

2. As someone else pointed out, in 4th edition, SA specifically addressed WBB and said that it didn't work.

3. If you're requiring me to guess, then I must take the only logical step here and guess that GW decided that it was a foolish rule to not allow WBB to work with SA, and took it out to allow it to happen. If they had intended WBB to not work with SA, they would have left it in. Makes perfect sense.

Feel free to stop trying to interpret a rule that has clearly been changed by GW to mean the same thing that it used to mean, despite the fact that they changed it to specifically say something else.

Dash, let me explain something:
THE RULE IS EXACTLY THE SAME
read the other thread, I showed the rule is the EXACT SAME rule.

P.S. Lol Dictionary.

Hrm....someone earlier in this thread mentioned that 4th edition specifically mentioned sweeping advance; I made a presumption there.

Like I said, I didn't play 4th edition, and I don't care what 4th edition rules were because they are completely irrelevant. 5th edition rules are all that matters.


As an aside, I'm having a blast.

Dashofpepper wrote:Hrm....someone earlier in this thread mentioned that 4th edition specifically mentioned sweeping advance; I made a presumption there.

Like I said, I didn't play 4th edition, and I don't care what 4th edition rules were because they are completely irrelevant. 5th edition rules are all that matters.


As an aside, I'm having a blast.

And Like i said before, the 4th ed and 5th ed rules are the exact same. How does something go from working from not working when there has been no change?

I just addressed this:

I have no idea what the rules were in 4th edition, and I don't care. And things go from working --> not working and vice versus all the time. I have some Tau wargear that does...well, nothing because of the 5th edition rules. I don't care, and I have no interest in bandying semantics with you.

All I do is look a the rules, and read them. Don't interpret them, or compare them to previous editions to derive meaning, and don't oversimplify things to try fitting everything into one clause, because neither language, nor the rulebook is that simple.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Hey...there's a really, REALLY clear answer. WBB doesn't NEED to say that it works against SA. All it NEEDS to do is specify a behavior different than what happens during the normal course of play (model/unit loses combat, is destroyed, removed from play, no attempt to save or reduce damage allowed). WBB doesn't violate those principles, and provides the requisite description of otherwise specified behavior: Instead of removing from play, lay the model on its side to represent that it is destroyed.

BRB: General rule encompassing behavior.
Codex: Specific rule dictating behavioral change that contradicts BRB.

Result? You follow the Codex.

As for your idea that WBB DOES reduce damage, I'm actually going to break out the dictionary for you because you're failing so badly.

WBB DOES need to say that it works against SA, otherwise, as specifically mentioned in the SA rule, it doesn't work.

This is an exception to the Codex > BRB because it specifically says in the SA rule in the BRB that for a rule to trump it, then that rule needs SPECIFICALLY state that it trumps SA.

It doesn't matter if BRB reduces damage or not, that is irrelevant (much like your analogies and dictionary quotes). SA says that the unit is removed from play, WBB tries to prevent it by saying that the models in the unit are placed sideways instead of beeing removed, SA says that it can't be prevented by ANY special rule unless that rule specifically says that it prevents SA.

PhantomViper wrote:

WBB DOES need to say that it works against SA, otherwise, as specifically mentioned in the SA rule, it doesn't work.

Incorrect. You are choosing to interpret what the rule means instead of reading what it says.

The rule says, "Unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule blah blah blah"
That is NOT the same as, "No save or special rule can blah blah blah unless that special rule specifically says that it trumps SA."

"Unless otherwise specified" requires you to specify that a unit or model will take a specific action contrary to the results that sweeping advance advocates. Those results are the broad, encompassing rule for how to kill a unit, remove models, etc.

If they wanted, "Unless otherwise specified" to mean "Unless a special rule specifically notes that it overrides sweeping advance..." then they would have written it such. The two meaning are completely opposite.

Again; you're choosing to interpret something in such a fashion that the English language does NOT support. Scroll up or to the previous page for a well-fitting analogy about a father and mother giving directions to their son to put this debate into perspective.

No, you are just being a Stubborn jerk.

Your analogy was a bunch of gak too.

You know I actually agree with Dash on this one. I have the necron codex and the BRB in front of me right now. Looking at it algebraically, the rules say when a model dies remove it, we'll call it X. It also says remove it in the sweeping advance section. In the necron codex it says Any necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show it's damaged. Saying X=special necron rule, Y, for necron models. It says in the BRB that "The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit AT THIS STAGE; for them the battle is over. ATSKNF must otherwise specify because it is saving them at the stage of the sweeping advance. WBB is saving them when the sweeping advance is over and done with. After a sweeping advance the models are removed but necrons dont remove their wounded models they place them on their side, because X=Y. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say that X cannot = Y so for sweeping advances im going to have to side with Dash on this one.

Gwar! wrote:No, you are just being a Stubborn jerk.

Your analogy was a bunch of gak too.

Indeed...when you cannot manipulate language to give meaning to something lacking it, and you are called out for twisting the rules to mean something that they do not, you can always fall back on name-calling to defeat logic!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hades wrote:You know I actually agree with Dash on this one. I have the necron codex and the BRB in front of me right now. Looking at it algebraically, the rules say when a model dies remove it, we'll call it X. It also says remove it in the sweeping advance section. In the necron codex it says Any necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show it's damaged. Saying X=special necron rule, Y, for necron models. It says in the BRB that "The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit AT THIS STAGE; for them the battle is over. ATSKNF must otherwise specify because it is saving them at the stage of the sweeping advance. WBB is saving them when the sweeping advance is over and done with. After a sweeping advance the models are removed but necrons dont remove their wounded models they place them on their side, because X=Y. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say that X cannot = Y so for sweeping advances im going to have to side with Dash on this one.

Well said. The stage of phase of action is very important to this rule. Folks around here keep trying to make up a rule that creating a unit, resurrecting a unit, or something else is the same thing as reducing damage that was done to it in a previous turn. THAT'S the load of gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just thought of a good one!

That's like trying to argue that the gun drones that disembark from a tau devilfish and form a unit after the devilfish is destroyed is reducing the damage that the devilfish took. Or that Chronus making a unit after his vehicle is destroyed is reducing the damage that the vehicle took.

C'mon guys, stop making up rules and interpretations to suit your agenda and let the rules stand as they are.

Dashofpepper wrote:
C'mon guys, stop making up rules and interpretations to suit your agenda and let the rules stand as they are.

That actually made me laugh out loud.

If Necrons could get back up from sweeping advance, I think they'd be seeing much more play than they are right now. As it is, they can't get back up, most anyone is going to agree with this, no matter how much you explain to your opponent till you're blue in the face that you get your WBB, chances are they won't want to play you, or you'll just get in a 20 minute arguement, either way, the necrons STILL don't get back up.

And Dash, suiting my agenda would be me agreeing with you, I'd love to have my necrons get back up after their failure in CC, however, because it's not correct in the rules, I can't agree.

Modquisition on:

Politeness is Rule #1 on Dakka. Please follow it or this thread will be closed and disciplinary actions taken.

How is this thread not closed already? Or is it okay for Gwar to call people stubborn jerks and post huge all caps stuff now?

Or maybe the rules don't apply equally to everyone...the way We'll Be Back applies equally to sweeping advance like anything else in the game that reduces to zero wounds and/or removes from play as a casualty.

Codex > BRB.

Krang.....OUT!

RxGhost wrote:How is this thread not closed already? Or is it okay for Gwar to call people stubborn jerks and post huge all caps stuff now?

Or maybe the rules don't apply equally to everyone...the way We'll Be Back applies equally to sweeping advance like anything else in the game that reduces to zero wounds and .

Codex > BRB.

Krang.....OUT!

Protip: Read Sweeping Advance.

SA Says BRB> Codex unless Codex explicitly mentions SA

Okay, let me take a crack at this using the presented logic.

Remember:

Sweeping Advance: The falling back unit is destroyed...The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over

WBB: Any necron model that is reduced to 0 Wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damage.

Argument 1:
1. Necrons lose combat are caught in a SA
2a. They are reduced to 0 wounds
2b. As per WBB, they are placed on their side
3. Make the WBB rolls

Argument 2:
1. Necrons lose combat and are caught in a SA
2. As per SA, they are removed from play.

We cannot follow argument 1 because of the order of what happens, the models are removed from play; they are not reduced to 0 wounds, and WBB does not intervene at this stage (sweeping advance). I know it has been said that this is flawed logic, but the models are removed from play, nothing can stop this...that's it. You don't take WBB into account.

Dracos wrote: Actually WBB does not overrule SA. Its specific rules overruling general. So generally, when necrons are destroyed they are layed down instead. More specifically, during a sweeping advance no model may use a special rule to save itself unless it specifies differently. WBB does not say that it is exempt from this more specific situation, so it is not.

This is the best way that I can iterate how the rules interact with each other.

SA is a more specific situation of when necron models are removed from play, and it has the trump of "no save or special rule" that needs an anti-trump to be beaten. There is no way to read the rules accurately (while adhering to "specific > general" when in conflict) that allows the necron models to stay on the battlefield. "For them, the battle is over."

This has got to be one of the saddest threads I've ever read in this forum. This rivals Warseer in terms of complete and utter fail.

There have been many times when GW was unclear with their rules--this is not one of them.

Eight Ball wrote:Okay, well even though this "discussion" won't go anywhere, I might as well try to add in part of what I think Dash is trying to say:



1) Sweeping Advance says "If the winner's total is equal or greater...the falling back unit is destroyed...The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage" As in, nothing will stop them from getting killed

2) Then, WBB says "Any Necron otherwise removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and laid on it's side to show that it's damaged" Saying that once their destroyed (nothing like ATSKNF or saves saving them from being destroyed) they are laid on their side.

3) Then, assuming that there is another unit (or Tomb Spider) and a Res Orb (weapon ignored their armor save) in range, they would then roll a WBB roll.

How is leaving the models on the table to come back not reducing the damage they take?

You are tying to pick apart semantics and ignore some parts in order to make the argument work. How are they complying with the part "for them, the battle is over" if you lay them down to take furthur part in the battle?

The SA rule uses no uncertain terms, and this is certainly NOT a case where WBB functions.

Dracos:

How is leaving the models on the table to come back not reducing the damage they take?

Obviously I'm missing something, where is this "reducing damage" part listed in the rulebook?

How are they complying with the part "for them, the battle is over" if you lay them down to take furthur part in the battle?

Well, if you're gonna argue that, how are they complying with "(casualties) are no longer fit to participate in the battle" (pg24 Casualties) ?

EDIT: Note I don't play that Necrons can WBB after SA (due to balance and stuff) but I just want to bring up some points to TRY to have an actual Discussion

Gwar! wrote:

SA Says BRB> Codex unless Codex explicitly mentions SA

See, there you go making up rules to suit your interpretation again. This is *NOT* what the BRB says, and I've explained it as many ways as possible, including the dictionary, analogies, and everything except for giving you pretty diagrams.

The BRB says "Unless directed otherwise, perform action X." The necron codex meets that requirement. The BRB does NOT say "Perform action X unless directed to explicitly not perform action X."

That's exactly the case here. You're adding words, twisting meaning, and jumbling rules in order to make SA apply to WBB when in reality it clearly does not.

Just because WBB doesnt mention sweeping advance does not mean that it is not a way that is "otherwise specified" to handle the unit being wiped.

One could easily read otherwise specified in the case of necrons as "they unit is wiped out so they are placed on their side due to WBB. If a res orb and a like unit are within 6" or a tomb spyder is within 12" and another unit of the same type is on the table then they may make WBB roll.

The otherwise specified method is WBB, it never actually says in the sweeping advance rule that the otherwise specified way of handling the unit being swept must state anything in regards to sweeping advance in its rules. For all intents in purposes sweeping advance is just ignoring saves/invulnerable safes/feel no pain.

Can yarrik/st.celestine/etc, or bionics work against sweeping advance?
What about models that are "without number"?

the removed from play part could be amended by the necrons codex rule of WBB wherein it states instead of being removed from play models are placed on their side.

The necrons arent recieving a save or special rule against the sweeping advance because at the end of the sweeping advance the unit is wiped out/removed.

However WBB states instead of being removed necrons are always left on table on their side for a WBB roll. I realize some people see this as a special save or rule but it is not because they do not immediately get a save or chance to getup in response to being swept so they have not been given a save or special rule to stop the unit from being wiped by sweeping advance.

Dashofpepper wrote:
As for your idea that WBB DOES reduce damage, I'm actually going to break out the dictionary for you because you're failing so badly.

Reduce: "to bring down to a smaller extent, size, amount, number, etc" So says dictionary.com. WBB does not affect the damage that a necron squad takes. If you do 10 wounds to a necron unit, a reduction in damage would bring down to a smaller extent the number of wounds that they take. It does not. They take full damage, presumably are wiped out, and the turn ends.

I suppose that if you and some other folks on here want to create you own language so that you can interpret things however you want and be right, you're welcome to, but none of it works in English. Or French. Or German. Or Chinese. I don't really know any other ones. :(

Wow, still failing there.

So, SA states you remove the UNIT. Under your interpretation the UNIT would remain on the table. Some Unit > no Unit, therefore you have indeed reduced the damage. Also, where does SA state you have reduced them to 0 wounds? You dont - you remove them. They go from 1 wound, halthy models to dead models that no longer exist. Any downedc models are ALSO removed as it states the UNIT is removed.

So to reiterate for the hard of thinking: UNIT > no UNIT, if you attempt to loeave UNIT on the table you have attempted to reduce the damage without - and heres the part you keep wilfully ignoring (or don't understand) - *ever being told you can do so as your rule does not apply*

Additionally you are massively, wildly incorrect on "codex > BRB" it is *actually* Specific > General

BRB: remove models if they become casualties
Codex: dont do this if X,Y, Z conditions are met
BRB: If you are SA you must remove the models UNLESS YOUR RULE SPECIFICALLY STATES OTHERWISE. The standard was set by ATSKNF (which you have again ignored, nice one) where it explicitly states SA does not take effect. WBB never comes close.

The exact same rule was in 4th, all 4th had was a parenthesis (you know, often used as *reminders*) stating WBB as an example. The language has not changed, WBB has not changed, however you suddenly think it works? You're funny. Seriously.

ITT: People who get laughed at when they Play 40k (protip: I am not one of them, because I actually know the rules)

you know its kinda of interesting they took WBB out of the mention from 4th to 5th since necrons in their current form existed in their current form in 4th just as they do in 5th. The only reason to take out the rule is if it no longer applied.

blaktoof wrote:you know its kinda of interesting they took WBB out of the mention from 4th to 5th since necrons in their current form existed in their current form in 4th just as they do in 5th. The only reason to take out the rule is if it no longer applied.

No, the only reason was so that idiots didn't think it was ONLY WBB that didn't work. Looks like GW screwed that one up too.

Altimera wrote:Okay, let me take a crack at this using the presented logic.

Remember:

Sweeping Advance: The falling back unit is destroyed...The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over

WBB: Any necron model that is reduced to 0 Wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damage.

Argument 1:
1. Necrons lose combat are caught in a SA
2a. They are reduced to 0 wounds
2b. As per WBB, they are placed on their side
3. Make the WBB rolls

Argument 2:
1. Necrons lose combat and are caught in a SA
2. As per SA, they are removed from play.

We cannot follow argument 1 because of the order of what happens, the models are removed from play; they are not reduced to 0 wounds, and WBB does not intervene at this stage (sweeping advance). I know it has been said that this is flawed logic, but the models are removed from play, nothing can stop this...that's it. You don't take WBB into account.

You're missing a couple of steps. In argument 1, you don't go from being reduced to 0 wounds to being placed on your side to making a WBB roll. There are some interim steps. Combat ends, the unit is destroyed, the phase ends, the next player starts their turn. Those are important steps. Nowhere in any of that combat did necrons attempt to reduce the damage they took nor save themselves.

In argument 2, you're missing something for your step 2:
2: As per SA, unless a rule explicitly mentions ignoring SA, the unit is removed from play.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, there's a problem here: That second point in that second argument is a creative interpretation of the sweeping advance rule that doesn't actually follow the rules, and ignores the rules of the English language to arrive at an unsupported conclusion.

Additionally, sweeping advance applies to everything in terms of being destroyed, removed from play, etc....unless specified otherwise. The necron codex basically says, "Ignore the rules on casualties, it doesn't apply to you. Instead, resolve things this way instead." That's pretty explicitly "otherwise specified" and fits the criteria for for the sweeping advance rule too.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the end of the day, EVERYTHING here boils down to one single thing: Whether the words, "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over" can be legitimately twisted around into a new order, giving a new meaning of "Unless specifically allowed to ignore sweeping advance through wording of a special rule, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage."

Also, again, where are people getting this "reducing damage" stuff from? I'm reading the SA paragraphs, I see nothing about reducing damage

SA says the unit is destroyed, and nothing can stop them from getting destroyed....

...at which point "Any Necron otherwise removed instead gets put on it side; WBB etc" kicks in...

Eight Ball wrote:Also, again, where are people getting this "reducing damage" stuff from? I'm reading the SA paragraphs, I see nothing about reducing damage, it says the unit is destroyed, and nothing can stop them from getting destroyed....

...at which point "Any Necron otherwise removed instead gets put on it side; WBB etc" kicks in...

Apart from the fact that SA says that you can't.

Gwar! wrote:Apart from the fact that SA says that you can't.

Apart from the fact that WBB says that you can.

EDIT: Sorry, just had to

WBB does not work against SA. WBB provides a very, very general rule for altering how casualties are removed. SA states you MUST remove the unit unless the rule you want to use specifically states otherwise.

WBB does not even come close to specifically stating - and specific > general so SA BRB rule > WBB.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Hey...there's a really, REALLY clear answer. WBB doesn't NEED to say that it works against SA.

Really? Because SA says it does. Simply put, as much as you WANT the rule to say something different, in order for a unit to survive being swept in any fashion, the words on the page require a specified exemption from the sweeping advance rule.

I'd like to present a point that seems to have been overlooked: does it make sense for necrons to be able to WBB after a SA from an in-universe point of view? I'd say yes. I may be wrong, but to me a sweeping advance is representative of the victorious unit running down the fleeing unit, just like what would be the case if the victorious unit just scored a buttload of wounds in the normal CC cycle. Obviously if the victorious unit has all power weapons or has double the fleeing unit's toughness in strength (or some other situation that denies WBB anyways), WBB should not be possible, BUT if they were swept by say, ork boyz, hell yeah they should be able to get back up! they're made of living metal! why should the fact that the necrons are fleeing suddenly make all CC weapons uber madly powerful? I'm not super familiar with WBB, but it seems to me like the necorns that just got swept need to have a certain units very close to make the WBB roll anyways.

tl;dr: imo WBB should work if the attackers arent already denying WBB from normal CC

p1. WBB is a special rule that prevents models that "would otherwise be removed as a casualty" from being removed, and instead is laid on the table
p2. The models caught by a Sweeping advance are "removed immediately", and "Unless specified differently, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."
C. WBB does not specify that it can stop sweeping advance from removing them immediately, so it cannot.

This is simple guys. Because WBB is a special rule, it needs a specific clause to prevent SA from "removing them immediately"

Not removing them from the battlefield is most certainly rescuing them.

Yeah, fluff wise they should be able to, and (arguably) they should be able to rule wise....it just makes sense (the fluff not the rules argument)

Dracos: you missed the "at this stage" as in nothing can stop them from getting KILLED that assault phase...nothing about not getting up at a later time (Like an example, a unit with "without number" getting SA STILL gets it's without number even though SA "says that nothing can save them")

Eight Ball wrote:Yeah, fluff wise they should be able to, and (arguably) they should be able to rule wise....it just makes sense (the fluff not the rules argument)

Dracos: you missed the "at this stage" as in nothing can stop them from getting KILLED that assault phase...nothing about not getting up at a later time (Like an example, a unit with "without number" getting SA STILL gets it's without number even though SA "says that nothing can save them")

No, you are not reading the rules, it says

"The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless specified differently, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

So according to SA you MUST remove them immediately, and then it goes on to say that no special rule can rescue the unit [from being removed immediately]".

Without number actually does not bring the same squad back, you get a new one. It counts as a separate killpoint and is treated as a new unit AFAIK. As such, sweeping advance destroying another unit has no bearing on WON. Irregardless, this is not about WON.

Yes, nothing is stopping them from being destroyed, no save is saving them at that point (as per the SA rules), BUT OH, WBB says that models that would otherwise be removed, get put on their side.


Also, just wondering...

Eight Ball wrote:

Dracos wrote:How are they complying with the part "for them, the battle is over" if you lay them down to take furthur part in the battle?

Well, if you're gonna argue that, how are they complying with "(casualties) are no longer fit to participate in the battle" (pg24 Casualties) ?

Eight Ball wrote:Yes, nothing is stopping them from being destroyed, no save is saving them at that point (as per the SA rules), BUT OH, WBB says that models that would otherwise be removed, get put on their side.

That would be rescuing them from being removed, which is explicitly prohibited by SA

Eight Ball wrote:Also, just wondering...

Eight Ball wrote:

Dracos wrote:How are they complying with the part "for them, the battle is over" if you lay them down to take furthur part in the battle?

Well, if you're gonna argue that, how are they complying with "(casualties) are no longer fit to participate in the battle" (pg24 Casualties) ?

This is a case of specific > general.

Generally, when a model is a casualty, it is no longer fit to participate in battle.

However, more specifically, if a necron model is a casualty it can still be repaired and sent back into the fray.

You must break no rules when interpreting them, except in one case. That case is if two rules conflict with each other, and in that case you must always follow the more specific rule.

Dracos wrote:p1. WBB is a special rule that prevents models that "would otherwise be removed as a casualty" from being removed, and instead is laid on the table
p2. The models caught by a Sweeping advance are "removed immediately", and "Unless specified differently, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."
C. WBB does not specify that it can stop sweeping advance from removing them immediately, so it cannot.

This is simple guys. Because WBB is a special rule, it needs a specific clause to prevent SA from "removing them immediately"

Not removing them from the battlefield is most certainly rescuing them.

Ah...see what you did there? Your p1. is apples. Your p2. is oranges. You can't compare apples and oranges. WBB != save or special rule that rescues the unit. That's the problem. You can't compare them together, because its "othewise specified" to treat them in a distinct manner.

And no...WBB does not need a specific clause with an annotation about sweeping advance. You only need that when you mix up the words of the sweeping advance rule, put them in a different order, etc. I've explained it several times already, just read up.

And on an interesting note, another poster had an insight that I think deserves merit...among other units, what about hormogaunts who have endless numbers who get swept? Would you argue that when that unit is destroyed, they may not re-enter play? Their codex entry doesn't specifically note sweeping advance, yet it gives another specific note on how to treat a destroyed hormogaunt unit. They come back onto the table fresh, at full strength.

You think that them getting sweeping advanced means that they don't?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dracos wrote:
That would be rescuing them from being removed, which is explicitly prohibited by SA

Unless otherwise specified. Which WBB does.

I thought that any necron unit that was fully on the ground was destroyed anyway.

I don't play necrons a lot though, so I might be misremembering that rule.

(Personally, I think the prohibition against special rules rescuing them does apply to We'll be Back. If that prohibition was undone simply on account of a special rule allowing for the unit to be saved, it would invalidate that sentence completely.)

Dashofpepper wrote:WBB != save or special rule that rescues the unit. That's the problem. You can't compare them together, because its "othewise specified" to treat them in a distinct manner.

Herein lies your mistakes.

p1.WBB is a special rule
p2.WBB rescues models/units from being removed.
C: WBB is a special rule that rescues models from being removed.

Honestly Dash you are grasping at straws. Saying that WWB =/= a special rule that rescues the unit is absolutely incorrect.

I don't really see how you could come to that conclusion.

"The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless specified differently, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage".

What is it saying special rules can't rescue the unit from? Being removed immediately of course!

Sorry, but in no way does any part of your argument hold up.

Dracos wrote:Sorry, but in no way does any part of your argument hold up.

It doesn't, yet I get called a Troll

Well Gwar!, many of your posts come out as egotistical and when challenged you seldom back up your posts with little more than rhetoric, so yeah IMO you are a troll.

Also, your avatar is that of a troll. No more proof is needed on the internets.

edit: To be fair, alot of your posts are not trolling. But you do cross that line far to often IMO.

blaktoof wrote:Just because WBB doesnt mention sweeping advance does not mean that it is not a way that is "otherwise specified" to handle the unit being wiped.

One could easily read otherwise specified in the case of necrons as "they unit is wiped out so they are placed on their side due to WBB. If a res orb and a like unit are within 6" or a tomb spyder is within 12" and another unit of the same type is on the table then they may make WBB roll.

The otherwise specified method is WBB, it never actually says in the sweeping advance rule that the otherwise specified way of handling the unit being swept must state anything in regards to sweeping advance in its rules. For all intents in purposes sweeping advance is just ignoring saves/invulnerable safes/feel no pain.

Can yarrik/st.celestine/etc, or bionics work against sweeping advance?
What about models that are "without number"?

the removed from play part could be amended by the necrons codex rule of WBB wherein it states instead of being removed from play models are placed on their side.

The necrons arent recieving a save or special rule against the sweeping advance because at the end of the sweeping advance the unit is wiped out/removed.

However WBB states instead of being removed necrons are always left on table on their side for a WBB roll. I realize some people see this as a special save or rule but it is not because they do not immediately get a save or chance to getup in response to being swept so they have not been given a save or special rule to stop the unit from being wiped by sweeping advance.

Personally, I think the conversation should stop until you guys stop ignoring some very valid points. Hormogaunts with "without number" for example. In the stuff I just quoted.

Dashofpepper wrote:Personally, I think the conversation should stop until you guys stop ignoring some very valid points. Hormogaunts with "without number" for example. In the stuff I just quoted.

Yet more proof you have no clue what you are on about.

WO creates a whole new unit. It does not save the unit in any way shape or form, it just spawns a new unit out of thin air.

Dashofpepper wrote:Personally, I think the conversation should stop until you guys stop ignoring some very valid points. Hormogaunts with "without number" for example. In the stuff I just quoted.

I have addressed every single one of those issues you have quoted. Perhaps it is you who needs to stop ignoring it?

Dracos wrote:I have addressed every single one of those issues you have quoted. Perhaps it is you who needs to stop ignoring it?

Omg j00 iz a trollz!

High five, very nice!

C'mon now, be nice. You stopped discussing long ago and reverted to just name calling. There's nothing that you can say that hasn't been answered. You can't say the same in return because at the end of the day, you keep twisting the sweeping advance rule around so put the "otherwise specified" part somewhere to give it meaning that it doesn't have.

And that's what it always will boil down to. You sweeping advance a unit and perform a certain set of actions unless you're directed to perform a different set of actions. WBB directs you to perform a different set of actions. Moan all day about how the necron codex doesn't have the exact word that you think it should have to make it apply, but again...its a nonsensical request with respect to the rules, GW's writings, and the English language.

All signs point to the fact that SA doesn't stop WBB. Feel free to point to more precedent where you previously came to these forums and screamed obscenities and did name calling until the other side stopped posting logic so that you could declare a "moral victory" that the argument was won. Outshouting someone and making someone disgusted enough to stop replying to immaturity doesn't mean you won, it means that you're just a jerk.

And that's where this argument ends, like every other one here. I'm not going to post in here anymore, because I'm tired of logic and assertions being answered with obscenities and name-calling. At the point where logic, the rules, and even the English language rejected your arguments (cough Gwar!) you should have just stopped and left the argument instead of taking a new line of defense involving 4 letter words.

As for me personally...I've said everything that needs to be said, and I'm comfortable that every viewpoint has been expressed in this thread, and appropriate counters and counter-counters ad infinitum have been made. What I'm saying is that I'm comfortable in the knowledge that an intelligent reader can parse through this thread and arrive at only one logical conclusion. Sweeping Advance does not bar WBB from taking effect. There simply is no evidence pointing to the idea that it does that has not been disproven or demonstrated to be faulty.

And at the end of the day, you can 4+ it with an opponent if they play Necrons and the issue arises, or picket GW until they release an FAQ that addresses things people care about, because there is no definitive answer, and relying on people to read and comprehend without creatively adding meaning is a useless exercise.

After reading over peoples arguments and looking at it logically, I'd have to agree with dashofpepper.
Since after further looking it over, they way the two rules do not seem mutually exclusive.

BGB 1) Necrons fail Morale test
BGB 2) Necrons fail Iniative
BGB 3) no saves or special rules save the unit or special rule that noramally reduces the damage &
    The destroyed unit is removed immediately (including downed models) (BRG SA is currently successful)
NC 1) Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty
    (both the standing and downed models qualify for this statement),
    remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged.
    (BGB SA is still successful, and WBB rule is successful)
BGB 4) Victorious unit consolidates

the Stack:
(BGB SA +) The unit is destroyed, including the necrons that were downed prior to the SA.
(BGB SA +) The unit is removed, including the necrons that were downed prior to the SA.
    (NC +) WBB places the down the casualties, including the necrons that were downed prior to the SA
(BGB SA +) The victorious unit consolidates, as models were destroyed and downed models have no effect on models in play

How do

The destroyed unit is removed immediately (including downed models) (BRG SA is currently successful)

and

Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty (both the standing and downed models qualify for this statement), remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged. (BGB SA is still successful, and WBB rule is successful)

work simultaneously?

A destroyed model cannot simultaneously be removed from the table and remain on the table top.

Also, (open question) is a necron unit destroyed if all of it's models are downed, or am I just making things up?

I think everything that needs to be said on either side has been done, and further continuation will just result in mud slinging.

I feel that I have addressed and refuted every point of contention that you have brought Dash, yet you failed to do so in kind. Either way, we are going to have to agree to disagree.

While I feel you position has no merit, it is nevertheless another opinion on this topic. Other readers and interested parties should draw their conclusions based on the arguments presented. Lets not spend a dozen pages rehashing the same back and forth.

Orkeosaurus: Also, (open question) is a necron unit destroyed if all of it's models are downed, or am I just making things up?

The unit is destroyed but the models that are downed go to the closest unit of the same type when they WBB.
If there are no models of the same type left on the board they are removed.
Necron Lords are the exception to this.

Orkeosaurus: How do [above text] and [above text] work simultaneously?

They don't, in order for something WBB to be triggered, the model needs have cause to be removed first.
WBB does not cancel the effects of sweeping advance.
It's not FNP or a Save, both of those cancel the effect of a wound caused to a model.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Also, (open question) is a necron unit destroyed if all of it's models are downed, or am I just making things up?

Upon further trying to remember the rules, downed models aren't destroyed if there's a unit of the same type nearby.

That's what I was thinking of.


::EDIT:: And this was already answered by Belphagor as well. Thanks!

I find your post unclear as to how you can follow a rule that says to remove a model and one that says to not remove the model at the same time. Could you please elaborate on how you can follow both rules that give opposite directions simultaneously?

edit: @ belphegor

Belphegor wrote:They don't, in order for something WBB to be triggered, the model needs have cause to be removed first.
WBB does not cancel the effects of sweeping advance.
It's not FNP or a Save, both of those cancel the effect of a wound caused to a model.

But the effect of Sweeping Advance is to have the models removed. Not to "have cause" to be removed, the effect is for them to be removed.

WWB stops the models from being removed, as they instead remain on the table. Thus, they have negated the SA.

Dashofpepper wrote:C'mon now, be nice. You stopped discussing long ago and reverted to just name calling. There's nothing that you can say that hasn't been answered. You can't say the same in return because at the end of the day, you keep twisting the sweeping advance rule around so put the "otherwise specified" part somewhere to give it meaning that it doesn't have.

And that's what it always will boil down to. You sweeping advance a unit and perform a certain set of actions unless you're directed to perform a different set of actions. WBB directs you to perform a different set of actions. Moan all day about how the necron codex doesn't have the exact word that you think it should have to make it apply, but again...its a nonsensical request with respect to the rules, GW's writings, and the English language.

All signs point to the fact that SA doesn't stop WBB. Feel free to point to more precedent where you previously came to these forums and screamed obscenities and did name calling until the other side stopped posting logic so that you could declare a "moral victory" that the argument was won. Outshouting someone and making someone disgusted enough to stop replying to immaturity doesn't mean you won, it means that you're just a jerk.

And that's where this argument ends, like every other one here. I'm not going to post in here anymore, because I'm tired of logic and assertions being answered with obscenities and name-calling. At the point where logic, the rules, and even the English language rejected your arguments (cough Gwar!) you should have just stopped and left the argument instead of taking a new line of defense involving 4 letter words.

As for me personally...I've said everything that needs to be said, and I'm comfortable that every viewpoint has been expressed in this thread, and appropriate counters and counter-counters ad infinitum have been made. What I'm saying is that I'm comfortable in the knowledge that an intelligent reader can parse through this thread and arrive at only one logical conclusion. Sweeping Advance does not bar WBB from taking effect. There simply is no evidence pointing to the idea that it does that has not been disproven or demonstrated to be faulty.

And at the end of the day, you can 4+ it with an opponent if they play Necrons and the issue arises, or picket GW until they release an FAQ that addresses things people care about, because there is no definitive answer, and relying on people to read and comprehend without creatively adding meaning is a useless exercise.

Your analogy is useless because it twists the words in the actual rulling and your claim that:

Additionally, the phrase, "Unless differently specified" doesn't mean that a codex needs to call out the phrase "applies to USR: Sweeping advance." That's an obscene request; codexes aren't written in that language.

Is also completly baseless because we have at least 1 example of a codex written in exactly that way: Codex SM.

Also, according to your interpretation of the rules, then Invulnerable saves can also be taken against SA, because they say they can be taken even if all armour saves are supposed to be ignored...

Ok so the people that are saying that WBB has no effect when crons are swept seem to be hung up on the fact that the BGB says that the models must be removed which is understandable because I'll put all of my money on the fact that more 40k players have the BGB rather than the necron codex. To understand this you must read the crons' codex which states that necrons arn't removed from play, instead place them on their side which is saying they are exactly the same thing. Removed from play=Placed on side. The part from the sweeping advance where it says no saves or special rules may save the unit is saying that if a 5 man firewarrior squad gets swept they cant use their 4+ armor save and end up with 2 guys, or a 3 nob unit with a painboy cant use FNP to save them and end up with a nob left, or a tyranid zoanthrope using its invulnerable save from a SA etc. WBB saves the unit in no way, the necrons are hacked up into little tiny black mechanical pieces and "damaged necrons are ignored for all normal game purposes[...]they are debris only"~Necron codex. The winners consolidate and then they knit themselves back together in the necron player's turn.

Hades wrote:To understand this you must read the crons' codex which states that necrons arn't removed from play, instead place them on their side which is saying they are exactly the same thing. Removed from play=Placed on side.

How do you jump to that conclusion?

If event B happens instead of event A, that doesn't mean they're the same event. It's a non-sequitur.

If a Hierophant is hit by a vortex grenade, it takes d6 wounds instead of being instantly destroyed. That doesn't mean it was destroyed, it could very well still be alive.

Just because B is a differnt variable doesnt mean that A cannot equal B. Placing models on their side is just what you do with necrons in place of removing them. The necron codex states this plain as day. It's like tyranids. They dont take morale checks if they're within synapse range. Its simply the way they are to make them unique, a system GW implements to make their armies diverse rather than just having differnt stat lines. When you think about it all armies have a way to adapt or ignore a rule in the BGB to make them unique to all other armies.

Hades wrote:Just because B is a differnt variable doesnt mean that A cannot equal B. Placing models on their side is just what you do with necrons in place of removing them. The necron codex states this plain as day.

We are both well aware that removing a model as a casualty and placing it on it's side for We'll be Back are different things. If they were truly equal to one another, in all respects, then my shoota boys could be placed on their sides for We'll be Back on account of the fact they can be removed as a casualty.

I assume what you mean to say is that putting a model on it's side is the same as it being removed from play for the purposes of Sweeping Advance, but what evidence do you have of that? They are materially different, that much is obvious, the burden of proving that there's an exception to that difference for the purposes of the Sweeping Advance rules falls on your side of the debate.

And as I believe you have agreed with me, event B replacing event A doesn't mean that they are the same thing. You only countered that they can be.

(As for it being a unique mechanic, I'm not sure where the relevance of that falls.)

...seriously? I really hope you know that WBB is a special rule available only to necrons. I really hope you know this otherwise I dont even see why you bother posting here. The fact of the matter is that the BGB says that when a model is killed off it is removed from play. Thats the rules. The necron codex says that necrons dont follow that rule, instead place them on their side.

I know it's only available to necrons.

I'm saying that laying down a model for WBB cannot be identical to being removed as a casualty in all respects, or every model that can be removed as a casualty could be laid down in the same manner as WBB allows.

Plus, in the end, the model is simply not removed from the table.

Hades wrote:The fact of the matter is that the BGB says that when a model is killed off it is removed from play. Thats the rules. The necron codex says that necrons dont follow that rule, instead place them on their side.

Yes, and that's why any other time a necron is destroyed, you lay it on its side instead of removing it, but SA says, Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage. once again, that's no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage. Honestly, if that phrase isn't referring to WBB, I have no idea what it is talking about. You can't take feel no pain or invuln saves against SA because it doesn't cause wounds, it removes them from play. The rule seems to be phrased that way specifically for WBB.

Maybe, just maybe, I can end this once and for all.

1) A Necron capable model that is reduced to zero wounds or is otherwise removed as a causality remains on the tabletop as a damaged model. (Page 13 of the Codex: Necron). This occurs at the moment the model is damaged or needed to be removed from play.

2) The WBB rule is a special rule (as defined on page 13 of the Codex: Necron).

3) The WBB rule itself does not state it overrides any other rule.

4) The Sweeping Advance rule states if a unit is swept it is destroyed and removed immediately from the table. (Page 40 of the BRB)

5) SA further stipulates no save or other special rule can rescue the unit unless specifically stated otherwise.

So...a Necron capable unit is swept after losing a round of assult. 4) kicks in requiring the entire unit to be immediately removed. This results in 1) kicking in allowing the entire unit to be placed on its side. HOWEVER, 5) kicks in and overrides the WBB rule since 2) is in affect and 3) applies.

That should pretty much put to rest whether or not WBB works against SA.

..fini....

Hmm.

Well, playing Devil's Advocate here, the unit would be destroyed after Sweeping Advance whether the models were set down for We'll be Back or not, right? The downed models would join the nearby unit if they could WBB, but that doesn't make their own unit any less destroyed.

In that case, perhaps the special rule is not negated, as it does not in any way stop or lessen the destruction of the unit (even if it does lessen the destruction of the models that comprise it)?

It's unbelievable that people are actually still maintaining the ridiculous position that We'll Be Back can save the unit, an argument that hinges upon the ludicrous claim that WBB isn't a special rule.

Just goes to show you that people will concoct all sorts of bizarre arguments when they don't like what the rules say.

I think the general claim is that either WBB doesn't reduce the damage done to the unit (and thus isn't ignored by the SA rules) or that the fact that the special rules say that they work is enough to override the SA rules prohibiting special rules from working unless specified otherwise (a position I think is ridiculous, but that's neither here nor there).

Gwar! wrote:

blaktoof wrote:you know its kinda of interesting they took WBB out of the mention from 4th to 5th since necrons in their current form existed in their current form in 4th just as they do in 5th. The only reason to take out the rule is if it no longer applied.

No, the only reason was so that idiots didn't think it was ONLY WBB that didn't work. Looks like GW screwed that one up too.

The reason they took out the "(such as the Necrons' We'll Be Back special rule)" from Sweeping Advance is simply because they fully intend to replace this confusing rule with Feel No Pain in the next Necron Codex. They want to obliterate any reference to this mistake of game design.

WBB takes half a page to explain in the codex and a full page of FAQ to try to clarify this idiotic rule. Even with so much print dedicated to it, it still results in endless hours of debate and discussion. When FNP supplants it, there will be much rejoicing and a sigh of relief from the 40K public when they can actually play a game without hiring a lawyer or a linguist.

Danny Internets wrote:It's unbelievable that people are actually still maintaining the ridiculous position that We'll Be Back can save the unit, an argument that hinges upon the ludicrous claim that WBB isn't a special rule.

Just goes to show you that people will concoct all sorts of bizarre arguments when they don't like what the rules say.

Also a ridiculous claim that was made by dashofpepper:

The phrase "Unless specified differently" does not mean that a special rule would have to specifically state that it overrides SA.

That my friends, is a rediculous statement. What else could "Unless specified differently" mean?

I think people are not understanding that if you get swept, its game over. Its a trump card. You need the anti trump to beat it.

I think the main disagreement here is that some people thing WBB directly rescues the unit from SA, and others believe otherwise. The way I see it is if necrons are caught in an SA, their unit is done, BUT the MODELS can come back. whether those models are in any way useful depends entirely on if they can rejoin a unit. a KP has still been given up, and if they're warriors, a scoring unit is gone too. Yes, it 'heals' another unit (sort of) or powers them up, but in all honesty I don't think it gives an unreasonable advantage. From what i've read, it seems to me like necrons suck in CC, so if a few models get back up, why not just assault them again? they probably won't be in cohesion with their new unit, and that puts them at a HUGE disadvantage, expecially since it stops the WHOLE UNIT from shooting. I'll take a way to prevent being shot at by necrons any day.

No, I'm sorry, but the main disagreement is people who know how to read and people who don't.

SA says remove them from play unless they have a rule that specifies that it negates SA.
WBB says that instead of removing the models, put them on their side.
SA says, "Hey, wbb, you can go yourself. The necrons are done."
Random people who want to twist rules for no comprehensible reason say "No, wbb still works even though it's a special rule that doesn't specify that it works. durp durp durp"

I dunno, the way some people are making it sound, is that rules that DO get past SA (like what marines get) also don't work based only on the fact that it is a special rule, and special rules don't work (they forget the unless otherwise specified part)....(no offense)

Eh? I don't think anybody's said something along those lines.

Don't worry about it, it's not even related to what this argument is about, and I'll try to say what I mean in the morning...

Here is the arguement for necrons being removed and not getting wbb:

OK the marine codex says models may choose to pass a morale test if they have certain chapter tactics.

BUT THE BGB SAYS IF YOU ROLL A MORALE CHECK AND FAIL THE UNIT FALLS BACK

How can you choose one thing from the marine codex to work if the BGB says they have to fall back?

--------------------------------------------------------------

Sweeping advance- models are removed as casualties
WBB- If the model is to be removed as a casualty instead place it on its side.

WBB modifies Sweeping advance and is 100% a special rule that specifically states how it modifies casualty removal. Nothing in SA requires it to specifically state Sweeping advance.

The models aren't getting a save of any kind against sweeping advance, they are only modifying casualty removal as per how their codex rule tells them too. The models are still removed from play but removed from play for WBB means dead and placed on their side on table.

Falling back doesnt ask you to "Otherwise Specify", SA does.

Please, if you can show me where in WBB it says "Models that are removed via SA get to make WBB", then do so. Those exact words.

If you can't, then you are wrong.

Le Gasp! They are not there!

It otherwise specifies that they arent removed from play -WHENEVER- they would be removed as a casualty. It doesn't need to specify sweeping advance because.

1.) sweeping advance only asks for an otherwise rule, it doesnt state "must say works against sweeping advance"

2.) its all incluse as in all the time, as in when a necron model would be removed as a casualty(sweeping advance states removed as a casualty) they are instead placed on their side.

instead=otherwise

when= anytime removed, sweeping advance is that time in this instance.

It does need to specify Sweeping Advance, because the Sweeping Advance rule REQUIRES it to be specified.
Marines ATSKNF is an example of something (the only thing, AFAIK) that complies with this and actually specifies taht a unit with that special rule is not destroyed when swept. WBB does not specify, so they're gone. Deal with it.

Whenever is general.

SA requires specific.

SA does not say "unless otherwise implied" or, "unless otherwise imagined". It says "unless otherwise Specified". As in, specifically. Singled out. Isolated.

"Unless otherwise specified" means: the unit might have some other rule that would normally save them from death, however, if it doesn't isolate the case of "Sweeping Advance", then game over.

don_mondo wrote:It does need to specify Sweeping Advance, because the Sweeping Advance rule REQUIRES it to be specified.
Marines ATSKNF is an example of something (the only thing, AFAIK) that complies with this and actually specifies taht a unit with that special rule is not destroyed when swept. WBB does not specify, so they're gone. Deal with it.

Yes because ATSKNF is saving the marines at that stage. The marines throw up a big sign thats says "Hey we're marines you cant sweep us." and thats that. Necrons have no such sign. The necrons are swept and dead. WBB doesnt do anything to prevent that. Because it saves them at a later stage because the BGB says that "at that stage, the fight is over for them" the winner's consolidate and then WBB resurrects them at a later stage. And for the record no where in SA rules does it say all special rules are gone at this stage, no it says that any saves or special rule that can save them at that stage is gone. If someone can point out specially where it says in the SA rules "ALL SPECIAL RULES ARE NULL AND VOID" then yes ill agree that necrons do not get their WBB.

I think this thread has WBB.

Someone needs to SA it so we can be done with this, already.

It does:
"No Save or Special rule can save the unit"

Hades. If you follow SA, the unit is removed, right? So how are you going to WBB models that are no longer on the table?!
And no, SA does not say all special rules are null and void. Just those that don't specifically mention SA. Such as WBB.
And god yes, please, someone SA this thread!

*Gwar" Sweeping Advances the Thread, but accidently Sweeping Advances the Wrong Thread and hits a Thread about BLUD REHVEN SPESS MAHRINES and so instead applies No Retreat!*

Gwar! wrote:It does:
"No Save or Special rule can save the unit"

Exactly gwar! No save or Special rule can save the unit. All other special rules that don't save the unit still apply.

Huh? Are you drunk. I said NO SPECIAL RULE.

Does WBB (which is a Special Rule) mention SA? No, do it cannot save them at all in any form EVER!

We just need a facepalm ork icon now.

I officially nominate this thread as an actual reason we need one.

It only states that special rules that save the unit dont apply. All others are still in effect.

And don no necron model gets removed. Thats in the necron codex they get placed on their side unless hit by a power weapon or something that causes instant death.

Hades wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It does:
"No Save or Special rule can save the unit"

Exactly gwar! No save or Special rule can save the unit. All other special rules that don't save the unit still apply.

Correct. So the unit is gone, removed from the table. And I ask you again. How are you going to WBB models that are no longer on the table?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hades wrote:It only states that special rules that save the unit dont apply. All others are still in effect.

And don no necron model gets removed. Thats in the necron codex they get placed on their side unless hit by a power weapon or something that causes instant death.

Nope, you already agreed that SA works on them,. and sweeping advance requires you to remove the unit.

See above post don_mondo.

Ditto, see above post

dude listen to me very carefully. The necron codex states that ANY time a necron model would be removed, it is placed on its side and ignored for all normal game purposes, it is debris only.

Yeah, and SA says that it doesn't, because the rule doesn't specificaly say "against SA"

P.S. The use of the Word "Dude" died out some time in 1994.

It doesnt have to, its not a rule thats saving the necrons in any way. The last time i checked, debris is nowhere close to being effective as a necron. But hey i don't want to discourage your fights with debris gwar!

Hades wrote:It doesnt have to, its not a rule thats saving the necrons in any way. The last time i checked, debris is nowhere close to being effective as a necron. But hey i don't want to discourage your fights with debris gwar!

It doesn't matter if WBB says that they are debris or scenery or even mashed potatoes.

SA says that the unit is removed from the table.
WBB says that instead of beeing removed, the models are placed on their side.
SA says that no special rule can prevent them from beeing removed unless it specifically mentions SA.
Therefore the necron models are removed from the table and can't get an WBB roll on their next turn.

Yeah, the point that someone else made was something like this:

Once the unit is swept, it is destroyed (Gives up a KP, and no WBBing can form that original unit again (no original unit to join)) but when WBB occurs, they go to a Completely Different Unit. So WBB isn't saving that unit (remember that unit is gone, kp given up) but rather making another unit above what it was at.

Eight Ball wrote:Yeah, the point that someone else made was something like this:

Once the unit is swept, it is destroyed (Gives up a KP, and no WBBing can form that original unit again (no original unit to join)) but when WBB occurs, they go to a Completely Different Unit. So WBB isn't saving that unit (remember that unit is gone, kp given up) but rather making another unit above what it was at.

That could work except for the little fact that until the WBB roll is actually made the models are still from the same unit (the one that got SAed), and so have to be removed from play.

I am sure this was brought up already... I'm too lazy to read through 5 pages of people saying the same thing.

If you can port downed models of a unit through the monolith to gain a WBB roll (because they are still part of the unit, if there are non-downed models in the unit), then those same models can also suffer from SA (because they are still part of the unit).

It would not make sense to do it any other way.

NOTE: I am at work and am not looking at a rulebook currently. I am simply using logic (in a RAW debate, it means nothing) and is only my 2 cents.

EDIT:

Removed Quote, as it was misread

The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over. ~BGB

The rule exactly word for word out of the BGB. There are two key parts of this rule that people are not zeroing in on.

1. The destroyed unit is removed immediately. The necron codex states that any time a necron model would be removed, place it on its side unless hit by a power weapon or a weapon that causes instant death. So the necron models are swept and placed on their side immediately. All i did was replace "Removed" and "placed on their side" exactly as the codex tells me too.

2. No save or special rule can save the unit at this stage. At this stage. The stage is the point of the sweeping advance. WBB is not giving them a 4+ save on each model at the point of the sweeping advance, they are placed on their side and WBB does nothing to prevent this. Once the stage is over and done with, then do the necrons have a 4+ roll to get back up.

So why is it that people still have problems getting this? Maybe because 4th edition 40k specifically stated that WBB doesn't work against sweeping. In 5th edition, this was omitted. You know what else 4th has that 5th doesn't? If there's a unit I want to shoot at but theirs another unit thats closer I have to take a morale check to shoot at them. Do people still follow this rule? No because it was omitted. Oh yes 4th also said that if you don't make a BS check a blast weapon completely misses. Is this in 5th edition? No it was omitted. I suggest you reread the 5th edition BGB because 4th is over. 5th RAW is the way we have to play.

I can only lay out the rules for you, you have to look at them and read them RAW. This is the game we play, 40k. We have to follow the RAW.

There, you admit it. It worked in 4th, the rule is the exact same in 5th, why would it work differently? Did the necron godex get a super stealth update?

Hades wrote:
I can only lay out the rules for you, you have to look at them and read them RAW. This is the game we play, 40k. We have to follow the RAW.

:Insert facepalm Ork here:

Hades wrote:2. No save or special rule can save the unit at this stage. At this stage. The stage is the point of the sweeping advance. WBB is not giving them a 4+ save on each model at the point of the sweeping advance, they are placed on their side and WBB does nothing to prevent this. Once the stage is over and done with, then do the necrons have a 4+ roll to get back up.

This is the part I had tried explaining earlier, but people didn't listen, and it's an interesting point. (They obviously put the "at this stage" in there for a reason...)

The rule was changed gwar! That's the reason it works differently. Not that hard to understand. Please read all of my post and not just parts of it.

Okay so if a special rule cannot rescue the unit at this stage (when the are destroyed and removed immediately), how is laying them down instead of removing them not rescuing them? According to the SA, they must be removed immediately and no special rule can rescue them.

How is the special rule able to stop them from being removed yet not considered rescuing them?

Isn't not removing them "rescuing" them from being removed? AT THIS STAGE?

Dracos wrote:Okay so if a special rule cannot rescue the unit at this stage (when the are destroyed and removed immediately), how is laying them down instead of removing them not rescuing them? According to the SA, they must be removed immediately and no special rule can rescue them.

How is the special rule able to stop them from being removed yet not considered rescuing them?

Isn't not removing them "rescuing" them from being removed? AT THIS STAGE?

The necron codex states that ANY time a model would be removed, place it on it's side and it is ignored for all normal game purposes, it is debris only. I'm pretty sure that ANY includes SA. Please read the entire thread if you wish to post because i've stated this many times.

Hades wrote:
I'm pretty sure that ANY includes SA. Please read the entire thread if you wish to post because i've stated this many times.

Except that SA specifically says otherwise.
The rest I quoted for humor.

Maybe you should read the thread. I've already been posting about this all throughout. I've already offered refutation of every point being brought up.

WBB is a special rule, and even though "any time" a model would be removed its placed on its side. WBB's effect is from a special rule.

You know, the special rules that SA says specifically cannot prevent them from being removed?

edit: Hades, I like how you join a thread on p.5 and then tell someone who has been reading and responding since the beginning to read the rest of the thread. Doesn't you being unaware of the ~10-15 posts I've written imply YOU didnt read the thread?

Hades wrote:The rule was changed gwar! That's the reason it works differently. Not that hard to understand. Please read all of my post and not just parts of it.

I already proved in 2 other threads the rule didn't change.

At this point I really wish there was a way that other users could wager on how long a thread will go in complete circles before the moderators close it down. That way we could have charitable forum trolling and still benefit the site. >.> But just to get my kick in on the dead horse...

The only thing which changed between 4th and 5th edition is that WBB is no longer explicitly mentioned as an example of a rule which loses to SA. If it makes you feel any better, you can put the models down on the table before removing them immediately, but they're still going to be removed by the sweeping advance because at that point it can't save them.

Dracos wrote:Maybe you should read the thread. I've already been posting about this all throughout. I've already offered refutation of every point being brought up.

WBB is a special rule, and even though "any time" a model would be removed its placed on its side. WBB's effect is from a special rule.

You know, the special rules that SA says specifically cannot prevent them from being removed?

No SA never states that nothing can prevent them from being removed, it says no save or special rule can save them at this stage. removed=layed on their side for a necron model.

How could it change? The codex is older than 4th edition.

I think he means the SA rules, not that it helps the case.

Hades, I'm going to try to make this as clear as possible.

SA says that you remove the models unless you have a special rule that specifically pertains to SA.

If you are putting the models on their side instead of removing them, then you are, in every possible interpretation of the word, saving them from being removed.

If you do not have a special rule that specifically says it works for SA, then it does not.

You are required by SA to remove the models from play. Then, if you'd like, you are more than welcome to take their WBB rolls and the surviving models may continue the fight with whatever enemy models they find inside your minis case, but they have already been removed from play, so they can't possibly be within 6" of another unit that is still in the game.

Hades wrote:
No SA never states that nothing can prevent them from being removed, it says no save or special rule can save them at this stage. removed=layed on their side for a necron model.

No. Laid on side = laid on side.
Removed is what SA makes you do.

Dracos wrote:
edit: Hades, I like how you join a thread on p.5 and then tell someone who has been reading and responding since the beginning to read the rest of the thread. Doesn't you being unaware of the ~10-15 posts I've written imply YOU didnt read the thread?

I've been here since page 2 dracos.

Next can we bring up nemesis force weapons, et al?

They are equally irrelevant.

Go out and buy the necron codex. I have it and i'm reading it right now. It says that removing models and laying them on their side is EXACTLY the same thing. Buy the codex, read it, reread it then come back. It is just they way necrons are played.

Hades wrote:Go out and buy the necron codex. I have it and i'm reading it right now. It says that removing models and laying them on their side is EXACTLY the same thing. Buy the codex, read it, reread it then come back. It is just they way necrons are played.

And you read the Rulebook. It says Sod the Codex unless it mentions SA.

And, in fairness I have read all of them, and I remember a fair amount of what I read.

Oddly enough, I understand it too.

Hades wrote:dude listen to me very carefully. The necron codex states that ANY time a necron model would be removed as a casualty, it is placed on its side and ignored for all normal game purposes, it is debris only.

I added the correction in bold.

Models removed from play due to sweeping advance are not removed as a casualty (I think).

Gwar! wrote:

Hades wrote:Go out and buy the necron codex. I have it and i'm reading it right now. It says that removing models and laying them on their side is EXACTLY the same thing. Buy the codex, read it, reread it then come back. It is just they way necrons are played.

And you read the Rulebook. It says Sod the Codex unless it mentions SA.

im 100% sure it doesnt.

Gwar: Why doesn't "Any time it would be removed" not include SA as well? It is used every other time (Regular casualties, other special rules ect) So why does "ANY TIME" suddenly not also mean with SA?

Eight Ball wrote: So why does "ANY TIME" suddenly not also mean with SA?

BECAUSE SWEEPING ADVANCE SAYS SO!

God damnit, read the rulebook. It says "Unless otherwise Specified" (as in, specificity mentioned) nothing can save them.

Because the rule book ACTUALLY says that it does not.

Hades wrote:No SA never states that nothing can prevent them from being removed, it says no save or special rule can save them at this stage. removed=layed on their side for a necron model.

Okay I'm going to go through this extremely slowly for you to make sure you can keep up.

WBB is a special rule.

WBB generally prevents models from being removed as casualties and instead lays them on their side.

This means that WBB will directly conflict with any other rule that tells you to remove models. That means it "rescues" them by being removed by those rules that would otherwise remove them. With me so far?

When a unit is caught by an SA, they are "destroyed and removed immediately. Unless specified differently, no save or special rule can rescue them at this stage, for them the battle is over".

WBB wants to rescue them from being removed by instead laying them on their side. However, SA says that a special rule cannot rescue them at this stage unless is specifically tells you differently (as in says specifically that the special rule trumps SA).

WBB is unable to use its replacement effect because it does not have a clause to override SA.

Therefore, WBB does not work against SA.

If you can't follow that, then you are just trying to interpret the rules to achieve your own result. The rules are crystal clear here.

Yes please stop confusing "Saving" and "Removing" They are nowhere near the same terms.

Dracos wrote:If you can't follow that, then you are just trying to interpret the rules to achieve your own result. The rules are crystal clear here.

I would use much more colourful language.

Again, sorry, I'm hung up on the "Any Time" especially with the Codex>BRB...

Hades wrote:Yes please stop confusing "Saving" and "Removing" They are nowhere near the same terms.

No, you stop not reading.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eight Ball wrote:Again, sorry, I'm hung up on the "Any Time" especially with the Codex>BRB...

Are you deliberately being Dense? The rules for Sweeping advance say that SA overrides the codex, unless the codex says specifically otherwise.

Codex > BRB is a flawed argument.

Specific > General is the better reading.

SA demands a SPECIFIC exception.

None is written in WBB

Gwar! wrote:

Hades wrote:Yes please stop confusing "Saving" and "Removing" They are nowhere near the same terms.

No, you stop not reading.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eight Ball wrote:Again, sorry, I'm hung up on the "Any Time" especially with the Codex>BRB...

Are you deliberately being idiotic? The rules for Sweeping advance say that SA overrides the codex, unless the codex says specifically otherwise.

Dude look. SA says that nothing can SAVE them. You are technically removing the models. You are performing the same action because necron models are laid on their side and not removed. They are DEAD. Whether or not they are removed or laid on their side for that stage they are DEAD NECRONS. WBB saves them at a later stage.

It also says "For them the battle is over". Letting them Take WBB is breaking that rule.

P.S. Dude is Still Dead in 1994

Please keep in mind that the Codex says

Anytime they are removed AS A CASUALTY

Removing that part of the text will very much limit your arguments, as (i stated this before) models removed from the table via SA doesn't state they are removed as casualties.

Gwar! wrote:P.S. Dude is Still Dead in 1994

I bloody resurrected it with WBB

Harkainos wrote:Please keep in mind that the Codex says

Anytime they are removed AS A CASUALTY

Removing that part of the text will very much limit your arguments, as (i stated this before) models removed from the table via SA doesn't state they are removed as casualties.

Le gasp! Selective Quoting by the side that is wrong?

I'd never expect that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hades wrote:P.S. Dude is Still Dead in 1994

I bloody resurrected it with WBB

Nope, I Sweeping Advanced it, sorry.

Hades wrote:Dude look. SA says that nothing can SAVE them. You are technically removing the models. You are performing the same action because necron models are laid on their side and not removed. They are DEAD. Whether or not they are removed or laid on their side for that stage they are DEAD NECRONS. WBB saves them at a later stage.

Wow this is the most ridiculous claim yet. Now, you are not removing them if you lay them on their side instead.If the wording just said they were destroyed, you might have more of a leg to stand on. But the SA rule state to remove the models immediately, and that no special rule can rescue them from being removed (it uses the word rescue, not save fyi).

WBB offers a replacement effect to removing models, it is NOT the SAME as removing them.

In fact, you are rescuing them from being removed immediately if you lay them on their side.

Gwar! wrote:It also says "For them the battle is over". Letting them Take WBB is breaking that rule.

If you're gonna use that argument, Casualties also says ""(casualties) are no longer fit to participate in the battle" so I guess you can't take WBB after getting shot down by bolters

Hades wrote:Yes please stop confusing "Saving" and "Removing" They are nowhere near the same terms.

OK, what would saving them be in your mind? Jesus Christ manifesting on the table and absolving their sins?
SA says remove them immediately. Yes?
So, any time you do not remove them immediately, you are saving them from SA. Right? Please say I'm right on this point, because if you don't then there is absolutely nothing that will make you see how the rule actually works and there is a somewhat more intelligent rock on my lawn that I could be arguing with instead.

Gwar! wrote:

Harkainos wrote:Please keep in mind that the Codex says

Anytime they are removed AS A CASUALTY

Removing that part of the text will very much limit your arguments, as (i stated this before) models removed from the table via SA doesn't state they are removed as casualties.

Le gasp! Selective Quoting by the side that is wrong?

I'd never expect that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hades wrote:P.S. Dude is Still Dead in 1994

I bloody resurrected it with WBB

Nope, I Sweeping Advanced it, sorry.

I'm against WBB from SA.... was the selective 'quoting' incorrect. I am not reading the dex right now, as I am at work.

Eight Ball wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It also says "For them the battle is over". Letting them Take WBB is breaking that rule.

If you're gonna use that argument, Casualties also says ""(casualties) are no longer fit to participate in the battle" so I guess you can't take WBB after getting shot down by bolters

Yes, but WBB works against Bolter Rounds. it doesn;t work against SA. See the difference yet?

Yeah, what part is the selective quoting, that IS the rule "A Necron that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, is laid on it's side to show it's damaged..."

EDIT: Gwar, based on what you posted above, you wouldn't get WBB from bolters, because "(casualties) are no longer fit to participate in the battle"

Eight Ball wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It also says "For them the battle is over". Letting them Take WBB is breaking that rule.

If you're gonna use that argument, Casualties also says ""(casualties) are no longer fit to participate in the battle" so I guess you can't take WBB after getting shot down by bolters

This just shows that you do not have a firm grasp of interpreting the rules.

Specific over general. Those are the general rules for casualties. They apply unless there is a more specific rule

I've posted this EXACT POST already, so re-read the thread.

Generally, when models are casualties they are no longer fit to participate in battle.

More specifically, when a necron model is a casualty it can still repair itself via a SPECIAL RULE.

Eight Ball wrote:Yeah, what part is the selective quoting, that IS the rule "A Necron that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, is laid on it's side to show it's damaged..."

Because SA doesn't remove them as casualties. It just Removes them. Big Difference.

No, I'm wondering what part was misquoted Gwar

Ok, i have been reading along with this thread of total fail and decided to chirp in.

SA removes units from the table
WBB wants to prevent that unit from being removed (by laying the model on its side), but it cannot prevent the unit from being removed, because it does not specify against SA.

I understand SA says at this stage, and yes, if you could lay your models on their side, then at the start of the next turn you would get a WBB, but you cant lay the models on their side. the battle is over for them.

so you cannot lay a model on its side. arguement over, WBB cannot kick in.

Dracos wrote:

Hades wrote:Dude look. SA says that nothing can SAVE them. You are technically removing the models. You are performing the same action because necron models are laid on their side and not removed. They are DEAD. Whether or not they are removed or laid on their side for that stage they are DEAD NECRONS. WBB saves them at a later stage.

Wow this is the most ridiculous claim yet. Now, you are not removing them if you lay them on their side instead.If the wording just said they were destroyed, you might have more of a leg to stand on. But the SA rule state to remove the models immediately, and that no special rule can rescue them from being removed (it uses the word rescue, not save fyi).

WBB offers a replacement effect to removing models, it is NOT the SAME as removing them.

In fact, you are rescuing them from being removed immediately if you lay them on their side.

YES IT IS! Necrons are placed on their side instead of being removed! Thats the way it is. You are not saving them in any way because the necrons are considered dead and ignored. They are debris. They arn't considered necrons again untill the next bloody turn on a 4+. You have to understand time to get this rule. Swept > Dead > Consolidate > Necron turn > WBB rolls

Eight Ball wrote:No, I'm wondering what part was misquoted Gwar

The one where you claimed it worked when they were "removed", but they have to be "Removed as Casualties"

Eight Ball wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It also says "For them the battle is over". Letting them Take WBB is breaking that rule.

If you're gonna use that argument, Casualties also says ""(casualties) are no longer fit to participate in the battle" so I guess you can't take WBB after getting shot down by bolters

Eight Ball, I want you to read the SA rule.

When you get to the part that says "No save or special rule..." I want you to stop and read each word individually, taking time to look them up in a dictionary.

Then I want you to take about 30 minutes for your mind to process the information you've just gathered, then come back and edit that post as you see fit.

I am not sure how I misquoted.... it sounds like GWAR! and I are in agreement.....

Is that what you were asking EightBall? What part of my selective quote was misquoted?

EDIT --

I am caught up now.

the part that I was arguing (again, stop getting so goddamn personal with it) was the "at this stage". NOTHING is stopping them from being destroyed from SA, but as WBB, they go to debris form, technically destroyed (If they ALL fail their WBB rolls, they are still all dead)

Hades wrote:

Dracos wrote:

Hades wrote:Dude look. SA says that nothing can SAVE them. You are technically removing the models. You are performing the same action because necron models are laid on their side and not removed. They are DEAD. Whether or not they are removed or laid on their side for that stage they are DEAD NECRONS. WBB saves them at a later stage.

Wow this is the most ridiculous claim yet. Now, you are not removing them if you lay them on their side instead.If the wording just said they were destroyed, you might have more of a leg to stand on. But the SA rule state to remove the models immediately, and that no special rule can rescue them from being removed (it uses the word rescue, not save fyi).

WBB offers a replacement effect to removing models, it is NOT the SAME as removing them.

In fact, you are rescuing them from being removed immediately if you lay them on their side.

YES IT IS! Necrons are placed on their side instead of being removed! Thats the way it is. You are not saving them in any way because the necrons are considered dead and ignored. They are debris. They arn't considered necrons again untill the next bloody turn on a 4+. You have to understand time to get this rule. Swept > Dead > Consolidate > Necron turn > WBB rolls

The effect of SA is that the models are removed immediately. If you prevent this from happening by laying them on their side, that is rescuing them.

That is simple english friend. You keep saying that WBB lays them on their side. There is no possible way you can claim that preventing them from being removed immediately is not rescuing them.

If nothing can save them at this stage, why are you saving them for another stage to save them?

^^

Nah, the rules are not crystal clear, if they were then I wouldn't have had multiple opponents argue that my warriors WBB and enter play as part of another unit.
That's why there have been multiple discussions posted on the topic (and I'm sure it'll happen again).

If a person, or persons, have a different opinion of the way 2 different rules from 2 different editions interact that happens to differ from your own, it doesn't make them idiotic.

Why are people so emotionally tide to this?
When I initially posted I just wanted to get some feedback on how people play it in there games.
Not see a bunch of emo-flailing and playground power games.
seriously, wtf? Leave it on the OT forum, where it belongs.
It really seems like some of you are just looking to find any excuse to call someone a fool, regardless of it being valid or not.
It makes the forum look bad.

The SA rules are perfectly clear.

Hades wrote:
YES IT IS! Necrons are placed on their side instead of being removed! Thats the way it is. You are not saving them in any way because the necrons are considered dead and ignored. They are debris. They arn't considered necrons again untill the next bloody turn on a 4+. You have to understand time to get this rule. Swept > Dead > Consolidate > Necron turn > WBB rolls

WRONG

I'll try to make this simple for you.

- When all necrons in a unit die, by the rules for the monolith, the FAQ and about 100 other places they are considered to still be a unit *until the WBB roll is made next turn*
- When you SA a unit, you remove the ENTIRE UNIT. THE ENTIRE UNIT. The repeat was in case you skip over that part.
- By attempting to lay the models down THE ENTIRE UNIT has not been removed. You have not complied with the SA rules which state THE ENTIRE UNIT MUST BE REMOVED.
- WBB therefore cannot work, as you are *saving* the unit when you do not have the SPECIFIC permission to do so.

Gah, how simple is this! WBB is a special rule that changes how casualty removal generally works for Necrons. SA is a specific rule for a specific situation. Specific > General

Specific > General
Specific > General

and once more for the hard of thinking:

Specific > General

Eight Ball wrote:the part that I was arguing (again, stop getting so goddamn personal with it) was the "at this stage". NOTHING is stopping them from being destroyed from SA, but as WBB, they go to debris form, technically destroyed (If they ALL fail their WBB rolls, they are still all dead)

But SA doesn't say they are destroyed, if it did, there might be some form of rational argument on the topic. It says they are removed immediately. If you do not remove them immediately, you are saving them from being removed immediately.
If SA said they were destroyed, then the break no rule standard would say, they are destroyed, so SA is satisfied, but then they can repair themselves so wbb is satisfied.
SA says REMOVE THEM IMMEDIATELY. So then you must figure out which rule to ignore in this situation, luckily you don't have to decide if SA or being necrons is more specific, because SA tells you very VERY clearly what to do if you have a special rule that conflicts with SA but does not specifically negate it, it tells you to ignore that special rule.

Hades wrote:You are not saving them in any way because the necrons are considered dead and ignored. They are debris.

The way that thi

Deffgob wrote:

Eight Ball wrote:the part that I was arguing (again, stop getting so goddamn personal with it) was the "at this stage". NOTHING is stopping them from being destroyed from SA, but as WBB, they go to debris form, technically destroyed (If they ALL fail their WBB rolls, they are still all dead)

But SA doesn't say they are destroyed, if it did, there might be some form of rational argument on the topic. It says they are removed immediately. If you do not remove them immediately, you are saving them from being removed immediately.
If SA said they were destroyed, then the break no rule standard would say, they are destroyed, so SA is satisfied, but then they can repair themselves so wbb is satisfied.
SA says REMOVE THEM IMMEDIATELY. So then you must figure out which rule to ignore in this situation, luckily you don't have to decide if SA or being necrons is more specific, because SA tells you very VERY clearly what to do if you have a special rule that conflicts with SA but does not specifically negate it, it tells you to ignore that special rule.

99% accurate, but SA does say they are BOTH destroyed AND removed immediately. WBB is okay with them being destroyed, but conflicts on the removed immediately (as you noted above).

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Hades wrote:
YES IT IS! Necrons are placed on their side instead of being removed! Thats the way it is. You are not saving them in any way because the necrons are considered dead and ignored. They are debris. They arn't considered necrons again untill the next bloody turn on a 4+. You have to understand time to get this rule. Swept > Dead > Consolidate > Necron turn > WBB rolls

WRONG

I'll try to make this simple for you.

- When all necrons in a unit die, by the rules for the monolith, the FAQ and about 100 other places they are considered to still be a unit *until the WBB roll is made next turn*
- When you SA a unit, you remove the ENTIRE UNIT. THE ENTIRE UNIT. The repeat was in case you skip over that part.
- By attempting to lay the models down THE ENTIRE UNIT has not been removed. You have not complied with the SA rules which state THE ENTIRE UNIT MUST BE REMOVED.
- WBB therefore cannot work, as you are *saving* the unit when you do not have the SPECIFIC permission to do so.

Gah, how simple is this! WBB is a special rule that changes how casualty removal generally works for Necrons. SA is a specific rule for a specific situation. Specific > General

Specific > General
Specific > General

and once more for the hard of thinking:

Specific > General

Ok obviously no matter how many times I say this no one gets it. Removed is the exact same thing as laid on their side. X="removed" Y="Laid on their side". The codex states that X= Y so replace Removed with laid on their side in the BGB when talking about necrons. This is all im going to say because I have better things to do than discuss this with people who don't know basic algebra. Later.

Hades wrote:
Ok obviously no matter how many times I say this no one gets it. Removed is the exact same thing as laid on their side. X="removed" Y="Laid on their side". The codex states that X= Y so replace Removed with laid on their side in the BGB when talking about necrons. This is all im going to say because I have better things to do than discuss this with people who don't know basic algebra. Later.

Translation: Whaaa Whaaa I'm wrong but Stubborn I'm gonna Emoragequit

Hades wrote:Ok obviously no matter how many times I say this no one gets it. Removed is the exact same thing as laid on their side. X="removed" Y="Laid on their side". The codex states that X= Y so replace Removed with laid on their side in the BGB when talking about necrons. This is all im going to say because I have better things to do than discuss this with people who don't know basic algebra. Later.

Okay, quote the rules section in WBB that says that laying them down IS THE SAME GAME EFFECT as removing them.

The thing is, it doesn't say they are the same thing. Instead, it tells you to replace the effect of removing it as casualty with laying them down.

That is fine, except special rules can't alter the effect of SA, which is to remove them immediately.

Basic algebra is nice, but your analogy is about as flawed as your interpretation of the rules.

Hades wrote:
Ok obviously no matter how many times I say this no one gets it. Removed is the exact same thing as laid on their side. X="removed" Y="Laid on their side". The codex states that X= Y so replace Removed with laid on their side in the BGB when talking about necrons. This is all im going to say because I have better things to do than discuss this with people who don't know basic algebra. Later.

Wow, you dont understand rules do you?

The SA rule says remove the unit - by laying them on their side you have not complied with SA, it is very simple. The UNIT still exists if you lay them on their side - if you wish to argue that the unit does not exist, please try to do so, it will no doubt be as ill thought out as your current argument.

Later bye, don't let the door hit you on the way out, it may spoil your attempt at a flounce rage quit. If you do turn up addfress the specific point above (without bringing spurious algebra in, lol) or one of the many others, or you will have aded yet more noise without any content.

Allow me to quote Yakface on this. It is from the link to a thread I gave as the first reply to this thread

yakface wrote:

A special rule would have to say specifically that the unit is immune to being wiped out by a sweeping advance. ANY OTHER special rule does not apply, because for models killed by a sweeping advance the "battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting."

WBB is a special rule that reduces the damage suffered (as it allows models to get back up and fight again) and therefore does not work when the unit is wiped out via a sweeping advance.

INB4YAKF....

DAMNIT!

Gwar! wrote:

Hades wrote:
Ok obviously no matter how many times I say this no one gets it. Removed is the exact same thing as laid on their side. X="removed" Y="Laid on their side". The codex states that X= Y so replace Removed with laid on their side in the BGB when talking about necrons. This is all im going to say because I have better things to do than discuss this with people who don't know basic algebra. Later.

Translation: Whaaa Whaaa I'm wrong but Stubborn I'm gonna Emoragequit

OK. This argument was so terrifyingly wrong that I wasn't even going to address it, but here we go.

If the way that wbb worked is by replacing all instances of the words "remove from play/destroyed" in the bgb with "place on their side" then when a necron is killed by a power weapon, you would go into the BGB and see what happens. But there are no specific rules on what to do when a model is killed by a power weapon, so you would have to just look up what happens when a model is reduced to 0 wounds and by your insane ctrl+r logic regarding the functionality of wbb, the necron would get his roll.

Dracos wrote:Allow me to quote Yakface on this. It is from the link to a thread I gave as the first reply to this thread

yakface wrote:
You seem to be skipping over this part of the Sweeping Advance rule:

"Unless differently specified, no Save or other special rule that normally reduces the damage suffered can save the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting."


A special rule would have to say specifically that the unit is immune to being wiped out by a sweeping advance. ANY OTHER special rule does not apply, because for models killed by a sweeping advance the "battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting."

WBB is a special rule that reduces the damage suffered (as it allows models to get back up and fight again) and therefore does not work when the unit is wiped out via a sweeping advance.

Okay I gotta quickly ask something before my comp craps out again. I have the small rulebook (even though both rulebooks have the same rules) and mine just says "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over" I see no part about "special rule that normally reduces the damaged suffered" part, or am I just missing that?

Modquisition on.
I am closing at OP request. While we don't necessarily follow the will of the OP I think its prudent in this case.

This may be an agree to disagree thread moment.

Hades wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Hades wrote:
YES IT IS! Necrons are placed on their side instead of being removed! Thats the way it is. You are not saving them in any way because the necrons are considered dead and ignored. They are debris. They arn't considered necrons again untill the next bloody turn on a 4+. You have to understand time to get this rule. Swept > Dead > Consolidate > Necron turn > WBB rolls

WRONG

I'll try to make this simple for you.

- When all necrons in a unit die, by the rules for the monolith, the FAQ and about 100 other places they are considered to still be a unit *until the WBB roll is made next turn*
- When you SA a unit, you remove the ENTIRE UNIT. THE ENTIRE UNIT. The repeat was in case you skip over that part.
- By attempting to lay the models down THE ENTIRE UNIT has not been removed. You have not complied with the SA rules which state THE ENTIRE UNIT MUST BE REMOVED.
- WBB therefore cannot work, as you are *saving* the unit when you do not have the SPECIFIC permission to do so.

Gah, how simple is this! WBB is a special rule that changes how casualty removal generally works for Necrons. SA is a specific rule for a specific situation. Specific > General

Specific > General
Specific > General

and once more for the hard of thinking:

Specific > General

Ok obviously no matter how many times I say this no one gets it. Removed is the exact same thing as laid on their side. X="removed" Y="Laid on their side". The codex states that X= Y so replace Removed with laid on their side in the BGB when talking about necrons. This is all im going to say because I have better things to do than discuss this with people who don't know basic algebra. Later.

I think you are on the right track... but lets finish the thought.
x= removed AS A CASUALTY
y=laid on their side

When referring to Necrons, replace x with y -

X doesn't exist in the SA rules.... simply removed. it doesn't say anything about removing AS A CASUALTY.