Simple question, can a Nob upgraded to a painboy take 'eavy armor?

also, mostly unrelated to that, can a single Nob have both a bosspole and a waaagh banner?

illdave wrote:Simple question, can a Nob upgraded to a painboy take 'eavy armor?

No.

also, mostly unrelated to that, can a single Nob have both a bosspole and a waaagh banner?

Yes.

Question answered! now Gwar answer my PM i needs you!

It's the other way around. You take the upgrades to your nobs, such as 'eavy armor, weapons, cyb-ork body, etc then you upgrade one of the nobz to a painboy. I plan on having a painboy in my mega-nobz, and if you think he's not getting mega-armor just like the rest, your crazy.

warpcrafter wrote:It's the other way around. You take the upgrades to your nobs, such as 'eavy armor, weapons, cyb-ork body, etc then you upgrade one of the nobz to a painboy. I plan on having a painboy in my mega-nobz, and if you think he's not getting mega-armor just like the rest, your crazy.

Sorry, you are 100% Wrong. You can buy whatever upgrades you want, but when you upgrade the Nob to a Painboy, you lose all the upgrades you bought and replace it with the Painboy Profile and equipment. Thats why Painboys cannot buy Power Claws etc.

Also, if you bother to read the rules, you will see that Meganobz are their own entry, and they cannot have a Painboy at all. So, enjoy your "plan".

Gwar! wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:It's the other way around. You take the upgrades to your nobs, such as 'eavy armor, weapons, cyb-ork body, etc then you upgrade one of the nobz to a painboy. I plan on having a painboy in my mega-nobz, and if you think he's not getting mega-armor just like the rest, your crazy.

Sorry, you are 100% Wrong. You can buy whatever upgrades you want, but when you upgrade the Nob to a Painboy, you lose all the upgrades you bought and replace it with the Painboy Profile and equipment. Thats why Painboys cannot buy Power Claws etc.

Also, if you bother to read the rules, you will see that Meganobz are their own entry, and they cannot have a Painboy at all. So, enjoy your "plan".

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

Heavy armor yes.

orkcommander wrote:Heavy armor yes.

No, he can't

Yes he can.

orkcommander wrote:Yes he can.

No, he can't. The codex says "Any Nob may Take:"
The Painboy is not a Nob.

It's so simple take the nob then take the armor then upgrade the nob to a painboy similar to a nob with a shoota and a power klaw. You don't have to take the heavy armor if you choose not to. The simple answer is yes but you don't have to.

orkcommander wrote:It's so simple take the nob then take the armor then upgrade the nob to a painboy similar to a nob with a shoota and a power klaw. You don't have to take the heavy armor if you choose not to. The simple answer is yes but you don't have to.

No, I am sorry, but you are wrong.

When you upgrade it to a Painboy, you lose all the Nob Wargear. The Situation you state applies ONLY TO A BOYZ NOB. No-one else.

orkcommander wrote:It's so simple take the nob then take the armor then upgrade the nob to a painboy similar to a nob with a shoota and a power klaw. You don't have to take the heavy armor if you choose not to. The simple answer is yes but you don't have to.

Agree.

Ork Codex Pg 98.
"Wargear: Painboy replaces slugga and choppa with dok's tools and 'urty syringe"
"Options: Any Nob may take any of the following: 'Eavy Armor...."
"Painboyz: One Nob may be a Painboy."

So, A nob can be upgraded to wear 'eavy armor, or even ride a bike, and then upgraded to a Painboy. However, I would agree that the Painboy can't take a Powerklaw or Shoota, because then he wouldn't have a slugga or choppa to replace with his dok's tools and syringe, which would prohibit him from becoming a Painboy.

So Gwar, are you next going to tell us that a Painboy can't ride a bike either? So all the Nob biker armies have been doing it wrong?

Well I guess if you don't agree you could dice it off.

whitedragon wrote:So Gwar, are you next going to tell us that a Painboy can't ride a bike either? So all the Nob biker armies have been doing it wrong?

No, because the option for bikes says:

The Entire mob may be upgraded to

Compare to:

Any Nob may

Upgrade a Nob to a Painboy, he gains a new profile and new wargear. He cannot take Nob Weapons, nor can he take 'Eavy Armour.

Seriously, am I the ONLY person who plays by/reads the rules here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

orkcommander wrote:Well I guess if you don't agree you could dice it off.

No, you can play by the rules or not play at all.

I guess you don't play.

whitedragon wrote:

orkcommander wrote:It's so simple take the nob then take the armor then upgrade the nob to a painboy similar to a nob with a shoota and a power klaw. You don't have to take the heavy armor if you choose not to. The simple answer is yes but you don't have to.

Agree.

Ork Codex Pg 98.
"Wargear: Painboy replaces slugga and choppa with dok's tools and 'urty syringe"
"Options: Any Nob may take any of the following: 'Eavy Armor...."
"Painboyz: One Nob may be a Painboy."

So, A nob can be upgraded to wear 'eavy armor, or even ride a bike, and then upgraded to a Painboy. However, I would agree that the Painboy can't take a Powerklaw or Shoota, because then he wouldn't have a slugga or choppa to replace with his dok's tools and syringe, which would prohibit him from becoming a Painboy.

So Gwar, are you next going to tell us that a Painboy can't ride a bike either? So all the Nob biker armies have been doing it wrong?

Correct.

Gwar! is climbing the wrong-tree.

EDIT: Because I'm not quoting and more people jumped in since I was typing!

Gwar,

Seriously, you are the only person that yells the loudest. Page 94 and 95 of the ork codex tell us how to use the army list, and neither of those pages describe the scenario of the painboy losing all of his wargear. It states to select upgrades and subtract points from your list, and rinse and repeat til you meet the points requirement of the game.

The nob list entry says that a painboy replaces a slugga and choppa, nothing else. It also does not say that a naked nob must be upgraded to a painboy, just a nob. So as long as a nob still has a slugga and choppa, he can be a painboy.

Also, the entry for bikes states that the entire nob may be upgraded to "Nob Bikers" which have a different description in the entry. The painboy option says that one "Nob" may be a painboy, not one "Nob Biker", so by your logic, a Nob biker cannot be a painboy, which is obviously incorrect.

Whatever. I am right. If you want to play your homebrew games, go ahead.

So basically your hung up on the word "any". Any nob is still a nob.

orkcommander wrote:So basically your hung up on the word "any". Any nob is still a nob.

THE PAINBOY IS NOT A NOB

Gwar, remember that the reason the nob in a unit of boys can keep his upgrades is because he does not have a separate list of wargear that he replaces what he had with.

Painboyz do not have a separate wargear list from other nobz like a lot of upgrade characters. It just says that he replaces slugga/choppa with dok's tools and 'urty syringe.

In other words, it does not say painboy's wargear=X
it says replace Y with X. Any other upgrades he may have taken as a nob still apply, just like with the nob in a unit of boys.

EDIT: I'm not really sure that's correct, I just figured someone other than gwar should mention a rules argument in this thread instead of just shouting NO U! over and over

As an aside, I've never found 'eavy armor to be worth it for nobz. For the same cost, you can take a 5+ invuln or a 4+ armor. Against things that you actually get to take an armor save against, you'd be decreasing the chance to take a wound by 8.3%

He Is an up graded nob. I play RAW not by what ever voodoo rules people argue on a forum. I'm out.

Gwar! wrote:Whatever. I am right. If you want to play your gakky homebrew games, go ahead.

ITT: People who think democracy applies to 40k.

Seriously?

Gwar, a debate does not need to lead to name calling. You posted your points, we posted ours. An internet debate does not have a "winner" or "loser". It stands by itself for others to read and comment. Your position is clearly stated, ours is the other way, and it's up to those reading to determine what they want to do with the information presented. If you have a new position or additional info to add or refute on our position, you can do so and we can debate those points.

However, stamping your foot like a petulent child does not lend any further credibility to your posts. He who yells the loudest is not a "winner" in a debate. He who posts the most factual information is also not the "winner" of a debate. The "winners" are those that read this forum, flip through the rulebooks, and then go on to play a fun game with their opponent with miminal finnicky rules disputes.

I see no reason why they wouldnt have heavy armour.

Another reason is that it says:

"One Nob may be a painboy", whereas under the Loota entry it states "Up to 3 lootas may be upgraded to meks", and they have the seperate wargear listed for meks. Painboys also have the exact same stats as a Nob, so taking the above into account, I believe a "painboy" is just a nob who's a doctor.

It's like saying one human may now be a doctor, but for some reason this prevents him from taking the same armour as the rest of the humans in the squad.

Also, the "Painboy replaces slugga and choppa..." entry doesn't mention anything about armour, as others have said.

I see no evidence that a PB cant take 'eavy armour.

I simply put it into the context of would you tell a medic in a sqaud to remove his body armour due to the fact he's lugging around medpacks.
" Smith!! take that flakk vest off!! your a coreman for godsake!!",no of course not.
So,IMO a Nob that has upgraded to a painboy keeps his armour,just swaps out wepons for docs tools etc.

Okay the fluffy arguments and lame analogies are not going to help you guys.

That being said, the painboy's wargear is just replace Y with X, so as long as the nob has Y to be replaced by the X, the rest of its wargear remains unchanged.

ITT: Gwar! is wrong.

welll this in interesting, as noted in the flash Gitz entry the upgraded git looses his 'Eavy armour and other equipment and gets dok's tools and 'urty syringe instead, my understanding is that you are not meant to have an 'Eavy Armoured pain boy and this wasn't made clear in the the nob section but is made clear in the flash gits section who are nobs with fancy guns so IMO no armour on the pain boy

warsmith pyrus wrote:welll this in interesting, as noted in the flash Gitz entry the upgraded git looses his 'Eavy armour and other equipment and gets dok's tools and 'urty syringe instead, my understanding is that you are not meant to have an 'Eavy Armoured pain boy and this wasn't made clear in the the nob section but is made clear in the flash gits section who are nobs with fancy guns so IMO no armour on the pain boy

Strong RAI point. I'd agree to play it like that. But then I'm always flexible on how to play the rules, as long as we can agree to it.

It is also clear in the Nobs entry, but it's in vogue to disagree with Gwar this season

Maybe you should somehow try and construe that in a positive way and learn maybe its cause you are wrong more than you think?

Dracos wrote:Maybe you should somehow try and construe that in a positive way and learn maybe its cause you are wrong more than you think?

Well, considering I am not wrong, why would I do that?

A nob may be a painboy, but a painboy may not be a nob.

Someone out there has to have ArmyBuilder. Fire it up and try to upgrade the Painboy to have heavy armor, etc.

Gwar! is right.

Army Builder is no guarantee that it's right. It's just the opinion of myself and the other maintainers when the rules are unclear.

Dracos wrote:Okay the fluffy arguments and lame analogies are not going to help you guys.

It's just to add to the already clear RAW. Painboys have the exact same stats as Nobs and fall under the Nobs category, so I fail to see how a painboy isnt a Nob and suddenly loses Nob wargear because hes a doctor - and unless the rulebook says something about medic units losing gear, he's going to get 'Eavy armour.

MasticatorDeelux wrote:A nob may be a painboy, but a painboy may not be a nob.

And where does it say this exactly? Where does it say a painboy loses Nob wargear?

Night Lords wrote:And where does it say this exactly? Where does it say a painboy loses Nob wargear?

Ya know, the place where it says what wargear a Painboy has. They have THAT wargear. If they wanted Painboyz to have extra wargear they would have said "Any Model may take" rather than "Any Nob may take".

And no, a Painboy does not have the same stats as a Nob. Look at the profiles. You will see 2 different profiles.

Nobs and painboys are two clearly different things.

There is the section where it tells you options for gearing up your nobs, and a separate section where it tells you the options a painboy has.

The only option that a painboy has is for a grot orderly. No one else can take a grot orderly, it's painboy gear, and a painboy can't take Nob gear.
The only reason that there is no section for 'painboy wargear' is space. The burna boyz box had enough space to specifically describe mek wargear, but the nob's box only had room to mention that a painboy has Dok's tools and 'urty syringe.

Nob =/= Painboy.

Sorry guys, but Gwar is dead-on, and you are not.

Gwar! wrote:

Night Lords wrote:And where does it say this exactly? Where does it say a painboy loses Nob wargear?

Ya know, the place where it says what wargear a Painboy has. They have THAT wargear. If they wanted Painboyz to have extra wargear they would have said "Any Model may take" rather than "Any Nob may take".

And no, a Painboy does not have the same stats as a Nob. Try reading the codex and looking at the profile. You will see, 2 different profiles.

Without getting yelled at, my codex shows the same stat line for a painboy and a nob, the only difference is the wargear. it also says "one Nob may be a painboy" both have the same stat line.

Toxxic wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Night Lords wrote:And where does it say this exactly? Where does it say a painboy loses Nob wargear?

Ya know, the place where it says what wargear a Painboy has. They have THAT wargear. If they wanted Painboyz to have extra wargear they would have said "Any Model may take" rather than "Any Nob may take".

And no, a Painboy does not have the same stats as a Nob. Try reading the codex and looking at the profile. You will see, 2 different profiles.

Without getting yelled at, my codex shows the same stat line for a painboy and a nob, the only difference is the wargear. it also says "one Nob may be a painboy" both have the same stat line.

And the names being different means nothing to you?

It means a nob may be a painboy, which to me means you pay 20 points for the Nob, then 30 additional points to make him a painboy. Call me wrong (and I'm sure you will) but he is a nob that may be a painboy,but he is still a Nob. I do see where you and others are coming from. This is a matter of point of view really.

Toxxic wrote:It means a nob may be a painboy, which to me means you pay 20 points for the Nob, then 30 additional points to make him a painboy. Call me wrong (and I'm sure you will) but he is a nob that may be a painboy,but he is still a Nob. I do see where you and others are coming from. This is a matter of point of view really.

No, he is not a Nob. He is a Painboy. Same way that an Apothecary is not a Veteran. The same way that a Nob is not a Boy. The same way a Mek is not a Burna Boy.

By the logic of the people in this thread, you'd be able to buy a combi-flamer or relic blade for a Space Marine captain, then upgrade him to have terminator armour, and keep the relic blade and combi flamer. But the fact of the matter is when you give him terminator armour he loses the ability to have those weapons. The same is true in this scenario.

You cant buy stuff then upgrade him and keep the other stuff.

To use an example let's go with, say, spehss mariens.

You upgrade a squad member to a sergeant. Can that sergeant take a Heavy Bolter? It says a tactical marine can take a heavy bolter, why not the sergeant?

Because he's a sergeant, not a tactical marine. Just like a painboy is no longer a nob. Similar statlines mean nothing. A chaos marine and a regular marine have ridiculously similar statlines. They aren't the same thing either.

I know I'm going to get rotten fruit thrown at me...o.k. I saw the earlier post about nob bikers. "the entire mob may be upgraded to nob bikers". Cool. So if you upgrade to a painboy, he is no longer a nob so is he a nob biker? If he is not a nob how can he be a nob biker?

Toxxic wrote:I know I'm going to get rotten fruit thrown at me...o.k. I saw the earlier post about nob bikers. "the entire mob may be upgraded to nob bikers". Cool. So if you upgrade to a painboy, he is no longer a nob so is he a nob biker? If he is not a nob how can he be a nob biker?

Because a Nob Biker is still a nob, so can upgrade to a Painboy Biker.

A Nob can take eavy armour, but loses it when he becomes a painboy because only nobs can have them. the whole unit can have bikes, so he keeps it.

The Flash Gitz argument won me over. I agree now that a painboy cannot have 'eavy armor. Why else would upgrading a painboy in the flash gitz unit remove his eavy armor? So... 5 new points to throw at something...

combo wrote:By the logic of the people in this thread, you'd be able to buy a combi-flamer or relic blade for a Space Marine captain, then upgrade him to have terminator armour, and keep the relic blade and combi flamer. But the fact of the matter is when you give him terminator armour he loses the ability to have those weapons. The same is true in this scenario.

You cant buy stuff then upgrade him and keep the other stuff.

I dont have the SM codex, however - Chaos Space Marines Lord, pg 92 of C:CSM:

"May instead replace all war gear with terminator armour, twin linked bolter, and power weapon for 30 pts."

It then goes on to list all the available terminator wargear upgrades. It specifically says you trade in all war gear to become a terminator. The painboy entry does not.

The painboy entry is no different than a CSM upgrading to an aspiring champion. You buy the marine (nob), and upgrade his status to Aspiring Champion (Painboy). Hes still a marine (Nob) because it doesnt say otherwise, therefore he can buy marine (Nob) upgrades.

The codex makes no mention of the fact that a painboy cannot take 'Eavy armour. You are all assuming with no evidence that a painboy is not a Nob (even though he only falls under the Nob category in the unit stats section). Yet the painboy "replaces his slugga and choppa...", meaning he has Nob wargear, and must replace those two, and only those two items in for Doks tools.

It's very easy to understand, especially because of the loota entry one page over.

+One Nob may be a Painboy
+Up to 3 lootas may be upgraded to a mek

You guys would argue that all 4 of these units are completely seperate. I would agree with lootas and meks, but obviously not Nobs and Painboys. Why? Because of how the wargear is listed. Nobs and Painboys SHARE their wargear, and only one bullet talks about painboys only replacing slugga and choppas. Lootas and Meks, however, have seperate wargear under the same loota entry. It does not mention meks replacing loota guns, it outright tells you what they do (and do not) have.

I would love to hear explanations as to why these two, obviously seperate units, have two wargear entries, yet painboys and nobs only have one, even though, by your arguments, they share absolutely nothing.

Also, as mentioned and ignored, only Nob Bikers may have a bike - yet painboys are universally accepted to be on a bike as well. I'd love to hear an explanation on this as well.

P.S. You're wrong. Have a good day

Night Lords wrote:P.S. I'm wrong. Have a good day

Fix'd

Protip: The fact they share some wargear does not make them the same.

Night Lords wrote:Also, as mentioned and ignored, only Nob Bikers may have a bike - yet painboys are universally accepted to be on a bike as well. I'd love to hear an explanation on this as well.

I just explained why it is acceptable.

Link for you, just in case:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/246717.page#814748

Gwar! wrote:

Toxxic wrote:I know I'm going to get rotten fruit thrown at me...o.k. I saw the earlier post about nob bikers. "the entire mob may be upgraded to nob bikers". Cool. So if you upgrade to a painboy, he is no longer a nob so is he a nob biker? If he is not a nob how can he be a nob biker?

Because a Nob Biker is still a nob, so can upgrade to a Painboy Biker.

A Nob can take eavy armour, but loses it when he becomes a painboy because only nobs can have them. the whole unit can have bikes, so he keeps it.

Wrong. The codex clearly says: "A Nob Biker may have a warbike".

It does not say painboy. There isn't another entry talking about painboys on bikes. Nothing. It does NOT say "The whole unit" or "the whole mob", it says a Nob Biker can have a warbike. By your logic, when upgraded to a painboy, a Nob he loses all his gear for dok's tools, which would include the bike.

Please stop spewing BS.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Night Lords wrote:P.S. I'm wrong. Have a good day

Fix'd

Protip: The fact they share some wargear does not make them the same.

Night Lords wrote:Also, as mentioned and ignored, only Nob Bikers may have a bike - yet painboys are universally accepted to be on a bike as well. I'd love to hear an explanation on this as well.

Are you blind? I just explained why it is acceptable.

Aaaand...Exactly. You can't explain why Lootas have seperate entries and Nobs and Painboys dont. Just keep plugging your ears like a child and telling yourself youre right. Also, I was making my post when you posted, and youre explanation is wrong, as said above.

Night Lords wrote:
Wrong. The codex clearly says: "A Nob Biker may have a warbike".

It does not say painboy. There isn't another entry talking about painboys on bikes. Nothing. It does NOT say "The whole unit" or "the whole mob", it says a Nob Biker can have a warbike. By your logic, when upgraded to a painboy, a Nob he loses all his gear for dok's tools, which would include the bike.

Please stop spewing BS.

No, you stop.

Taken from my codex which I have open in front of me right now:

The Entire mob may be upgraded to:
- Nob Bikers ..... +x Points per model

Entire Mob, including Painboyz.
Then we have:

The Entire mob may be take:
- Stikkbombs

Again, entire mob
Then we have:

Any Nob may replace his Choppa with:

Why have different wordings? Oh, that's right, because only Nobz can take them, not Painboyz!

Night Lords wrote:Aaaand...Exactly. You can't explain why Lootas have seperate entries and Nobs and Painboys dont.

Yes, they do have seperate entries. Read your codex again (that is if you can read), you will see Nobz and Painboyz have two very separate profiles, both in the Unit entry AND in the Army List.

Or would you like pretty pictures instead?

Gwar! wrote:

Night Lords wrote:
Wrong. The codex clearly says: "A Nob Biker may have a warbike".

It does not say painboy. There isn't another entry talking about painboys on bikes. Nothing. It does NOT say "The whole unit" or "the whole mob", it says a Nob Biker can have a warbike. By your logic, when upgraded to a painboy, a Nob he loses all his gear for dok's tools, which would include the bike.

Please stop spewing BS.

No, you stop.

Taken from my codex which I have open in front of me right now:

The Entire mob may be upgraded to:
- Nob Bikers ..... +x Points per model

Entire Mob, including Painboyz.
Then we have:

The Entire mob may be take:
- Stikkbombs

Again, entire mob
Then we have:

Any Nob may replace his Choppa with:

Why have different wordings? Oh, that's right, because only Nobz can take them, not Painboyz!

Night Lords wrote:Aaaand...Exactly. You can't explain why Lootas have seperate entries and Nobs and Painboys dont.

Yes, they do have seperate entries. Read your codex again (that is if you can read), you will see Nobz and Painboyz have two very separate profiles, both in the Unit entry AND in the Army List.

Except only Nob Bikers may have bikes. The reason for the whole mob wording is because the entire unit has to take it, or none of them do. They cannot pick and choose to have seperate distinct models within the unit like they can with armour.

It does not mention Painboys having bikes. You either have wargear: Bike, Dok's tools, and any of the upgrades or you have wargear: Dok's tools. You cant have it both ways.

By the way, quote as intended, and dont reply to one sentence. I was talking about the wargear entries.

Night Lords wrote:It does not mention Painboys having bikes. You either have wargear: Bike, Dok's tools, and any of the upgrades or you have wargear: Dok's tools. You cant have it both ways.

Yes, you can. It says the whole unit is upgraded to Nob Bikers, then the Nob is upgraded to a Painboy, so becomes a Painboy Biker. You can't give Nob only wargear (which a bike is not) to a painboy.

Night Lords wrote:By the way, quote as intended, and not one sentence. I was talking about wargear entries.

Are you an Admin/Mod? No, so STFU and don't you dare try and tell me to do anything.

Gwar! wrote:

Night Lords wrote:It does not mention Painboys having bikes. You either have wargear: Bike, Dok's tools, and any of the upgrades or you have wargear: Dok's tools. You cant have it both ways.

Yes, you can. It says the whole unit is upgraded to Nob Bikers, then the Nob is upgraded to a Painboy, so becomes a Painboy Biker. You can't give Nob only wargear (which a bike is not) to a painboy.

Night Lords wrote:By the way, quote as intended, and not one sentence. I was talking about wargear entries.

Are you an Admin/Mod? No, so STFU and don't you dare try and tell me to do anything.

Except there is no Painboy Biker. There are painboys, Nobs, and Nob Bikers. Please tell me where you see the word "Painboy" followed by the word "Biker". The only Bikers are Nobs, and Nobs can take Eavy Armour. If youre saying a Painboy can ride a bike, then he's a Nob Biker and can take Eavy Armour.

And it sure would be a coincidence for you that a Nob can be upgraded to a Nob Biker, and then a Painboy, yet only lose his Eavy Armour and not his Bike.

Why have different wordings? Because it's the difference between an upgrade that must be bought for everything in the unit and an upgrade that can be bought for an individual model.

Also, Gwar!, your logic regarding painboys and bikes makes no sense. If a nob biker can become a painboy without losing his wargear, a nob with eavy armor can become a painboy without losing his wargear. That you think a painboy can't be given it is irrelevant, it's a question of whether or not it can keep its wargear. It doesn't need to take it a second time.

Night Lords wrote:Except there is no Painboy Biker. There are painboys, Nobs, and Nob Bikers. Please tell me where you see the word "Painboy" followed by the word "Biker". The only Bikers are Nobs, and Nobs can take Eavy Armour. If youre saying a Painboy can ride a bike, then he's a Nob Biker and can take Eavy Armour.

And it sure would be a coincidence for you that a Nob can be upgraded to a Nob Biker, and then a Painboy, yet only lose his Eavy Armour and not his Bike.

Are you being deliberately dense? A painboy may take a bike, because the unit is upgraded, not a Nob. Once the Nobz become Nob Bikers, you may Upgrade one nob to a Painboy, who keeps the bike because the whole unit has them, not just the nobz. 'Eavy Armour can only be taken by Nobz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Why have different wordings? Because it's the difference between an upgrade that must be bought for everything in the unit and an upgrade that can be bought for an individual model.

Also, Gwar!, your logic regarding painboys and bikes makes no sense. If a nob biker can become a painboy without losing his wargear, a nob with eavy armor can become a painboy without losing his wargear. That you think a painboy can't be given it is irrelevant, it's a question of whether or not it can keep its wargear. It doesn't need to take it a second time.

Again I have addressed this several times. Please, read my posts

Night Lords wrote:

Except only Nob Bikers may have bikes. The reason for the whole mob wording is because the entire unit has to take it, or none of them do. They cannot pick and choose to have seperate distinct models within the unit like they can with armour.

It does not mention Painboys having bikes. You either have wargear: Bike, Dok's tools, and any of the upgrades or you have wargear: Dok's tools. You cant have it both ways.

By the way, quote as intended, and not one sentence. I was talking about wargear entries.

The warbikes upgrade is a unit upgrade, and everything gets it. Every model in the unit. Just like eldar becoming storm guardians. The unit is upgraded, not individual models.
So the change is that every model in the Nob Bikers Unit (the models are still called nobs or painboys) is equipped with a bike, and the unit name, not the models, is what changes. The painboy is still not a nob. But, as a part of a Nob Biker unit, he has a bike.

This is why there is no statline for a 'Nob Biker' - because the model 'Nob Biker' doesn't exist. If the models become nob bikers, then they cannot take any wargear, as only nobs are allowed to take wargear. So no power Klaws, because they aren't nobs. Clearly this isn't the case.

A UNIT of nob bikers is made up of nobs and a painboy, not nob bikers and painboy bikers.

Gwar! wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Except there is no Painboy Biker. There are painboys, Nobs, and Nob Bikers. Please tell me where you see the word "Painboy" followed by the word "Biker". The only Bikers are Nobs, and Nobs can take Eavy Armour. If youre saying a Painboy can ride a bike, then he's a Nob Biker and can take Eavy Armour.

And it sure would be a coincidence for you that a Nob can be upgraded to a Nob Biker, and then a Painboy, yet only lose his Eavy Armour and not his Bike.

Are you being deliberately dense? A painboy may take a bike, because the unit is upgraded, not a Nob. Once the Nobz become Nob Bikers, you may Upgrade one nob to a Painboy, who keeps the bike because the whole unit has them, not just the nobz. 'Eavy Armour can only be taken by Nobz.

Please do not insult me because youve been caught in a corner. You're saying a Nob who has bike wargear can turn into a painboy without losing his bike, due to "the whole mob having it". But what does that matter? You specifically said if you upgrade to a painboy, you lose all Nob wargear (Nob Biker would then be included) for Dok's tools. I do not see an entry under painboy's page for bikes. I do not see it under the Nob category in the back for a Painboy Biker. I see a Nob Biker.

By your logic, the entire unit will have a Bike, but once you upgrade he loses his bike and must be on foot. Since the rules wont allow you to have mixed bikes and footsloggers, you would therefore have to downgrade all the Nobs to be on foot as well.

Night Lords wrote:By your logic, the entire unit will have a Bike, but once you upgrade he loses his bike and must be on foot. Since the rules wont allow you to have mixed bikes and footsloggers, you would therefore have to downgrade all the Nobs to be on foot as well.

No, that is not what the rules say at all.

By YOUR logic, Painboyz can never be given bikes. You are the one that is nuts, not me.

Once more with feeling:
A painboy may take a bike, because the unit is upgraded, not a Nob. Once the Nobz become Nob Bikers, you may Upgrade one nob to a Painboy, who keeps the bike because the whole unit has them, not just the nobz. 'Eavy Armour can only be taken by Nobz.

It doesn't matter that they can't take it as a painboy, it's taken as a nob. The painboy upgrade is later.

Also, I don't see any proof of a painboy not being a nob. The wording "one nob may be a painboy" makes no implication that the painboy is no longer a nob. They have different profiles, but that's just inductive.

Night Lords wrote:

Please do not insult me because youve been caught in a corner. You're saying a Nob who has bike wargear can turn into a painboy without losing his bike, due to "the whole mob having it". But what does that matter? You specifically said if you upgrade to a painboy, you lose all Nob wargear (Nob Biker would then be included) for Dok's tools. I do not see an entry under painboy's page for bikes. I do not see it under the Nob category in the back for a Painboy Biker. I see a Nob Biker.

By your logic, the entire unit will have a Bike, but once you upgrade he loses his bike and must be on foot. Since the rules wont allow you to have mixed bikes and footsloggers, you would therefore have to downgrade all the Nobs to be on foot as well.

Actually, there is no entry for a Nob Biker. As I've stated, the nob biker upgrade is for the unit, changing the name of the unit and the wargear of the individuals. The painboy, as it states, replaces his slugga and choppa, it doesn't say anything about losing a bike. However, for Flash Gits, when one is upgraded to a painboy, it loses it's heavy armour. The problem is that you're trying to upgrade a model twice, which you cannot do. There is no concept of time when making a unit. You simply cannot upgrade a nob, then upgrade the nob again afterwards.

The painboy has the bike because it is in the unit 'nob bikers'. The painboy, however, is still not a nob, and cannot take nob upgrades. I'm not saying that a painboy loses all equipment. It's clear on what is changed. However, the painboy is not a nob, and cannot take upgrades available to nobs.

Orkeosaurus wrote:It doesn't matter that they can't take it as a painboy, it's taken as a nob. The painboy upgrade is later.

Also, I don't see any proof of a painboy not being a nob. The wording "one nob may be a painboy" makes no implication that the painboy is no longer a nob. They have different profiles, but that's just inductive.

Different Profiles, different wargear options, different Unit Entries too.

Is a Apothecary a Veteran? No, he is an Apothecary, so cannot take wargear available to Veterans. Is an Aspiring Champion still a Chaos Space Marine? No, he is an Aspiring Champion, so cannot take wargear available to Chaos Space Marines. Likewise, a Painboy is not a Nob, so... see what I am getting at?

Orkeosaurus wrote:It doesn't matter that they can't take it as a painboy, it's taken as a nob. The painboy upgrade is later.

Also, I don't see any proof of a painboy not being a nob. The wording "one nob may be a painboy" makes no implication that the painboy is no longer a nob. They have different profiles, but that's just inductive.

Different names and profiles mean that a unit is different. That's the whole basis for 40K, and if those aren't what it takes for units to be different, then there is no differentiation between units or models at all, and I can happily take a power klaw on my imperial guard conscript. Sure, it's got a different name and profile from a Nob, but it's the same thing, right?


The problem here is the apparent belief that you can upgrade a model as many times as you want, which is false. You can give a model as many upgrades as you want, but can only upgrade that model once.

Is there somewhere in the rules where it states having a new profile means it's no longer part of a broader category it once belonged to? Please, give me a page for this one. Give me a page for the rule that states that all upgrades are done at once, while you're at it, because as far as I can tell that's your speculation.

The wording for the upgrade is the core of the rule regarding it, and that wording doesn't make any implication for the painboy no longer being a nob.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Is there somewhere in the rules where it states having a new profile means it's no longer part of a broader category it once belonged to? Please, give me a page for this one. Give me a page for the rule that states that all upgrades are done at once, while you're at it, because as far as I can tell that's your speculation.

The wording for the upgrade is the core of the rule regarding it, and that wording doesn't make any implication for the painboy no longer being a nob.

That is not how the rules work. You have to prove it still is a Nob. "It doesn't say it isn't" is not how the rules work mate.

Consists of 3-10 nobs.

It is now a nob. Prove that it ceases to be one when upgraded to a painboy.

Gwar! wrote:

Night Lords wrote:By your logic, the entire unit will have a Bike, but once you upgrade he loses his bike and must be on foot. Since the rules wont allow you to have mixed bikes and footsloggers, you would therefore have to downgrade all the Nobs to be on foot as well.

No, that is not what the rules say at all.

By YOUR logic, Painboyz can never be given bikes. You are the one that is nuts, not me.

Once more with feeling:
A painboy may take a bike, because the unit is upgraded, not a Nob. Once the Nobz become Nob Bikers, you may Upgrade one nob to a Painboy, who keeps the bike because the whole unit has them, not just the nobz. 'Eavy Armour can only be taken by Nobz.

After upgrading the Nobs your wargear looks like this:

Slugga
Choppa
Warbike

With PB upgrade you replace Slugga and Choppa:

Dok's Tools
Syringe
Warbike

Hence you get a Painboy Biker

However, why is it if I have:

Slugga
Choppa
Nob Warbike
Eavy Armour

and I upgrade to a Painboy I get the same result as above:

Dok's Tools
Syringe
Nob Warbike

But no Eavy Armour? How can I keep a bike and not Eavy armour? Where are you coming up with these pick and choose rules? The answer: They dont exist. You can either lose all previous wargear, so both Bikes and Armour, or you keep everything, so Painboys get Bikes and Eavy Armour. It doesnt matter if the whole mob has it, there is no entry for a Painboy having a bike. You are claiming its a seperate unit and cant take Nob upgrades, yet youre giving it a Nob upgrade! Makes No sense! You either lose all your wargear when you upgrade or you dont, its simple!

Orkeosaurus wrote:Consists of 3-10 nobs.

It is now a nob. Prove that it ceases to be one when upgraded to a painboy.

It's profile changes? Or are you saying the profile is irrelevant, and I can now give my IG conscripts Docs Toolz or my Regular Nobz Grot Orderlies?

@Night Lords: Give it up. I already Explained it to you, the Bikes are not a Nob Upgrade, they are a Unit Upgrade, so are kept when it becomes a Painboy.

Its profile changes. All that means is it has a new profile.

Conscripts were never nobs, and are in a different unit entry. Completely irrelevant.

E-mailed GW about it. Hope it gets returned quickly.

You could also look at the fluff of the Painboys (pg 38 of the codex). Says nothing about them being nobs...actually, it says things along the lines of them getting along well with Meks. They essentially tag along with the Nobs, hoping to 'help' them in a fight.

The codex agrees with this. They are a separate class unit, in the same mob.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Its profile changes. All that means is it has a new profile.

Conscripts were never nobs, and are in a different unit entry. Completely irrelevant.

Painboyz have their own unit entry too. They have a different name, and are clearly not nobz. One Nob may be a painboy. That's it, a Painboy, not a Nob. It does not say "one nob becomes a Painboy Nob."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MasticatorDeelux wrote:E-mailed GW about it. Hope it gets returned quickly.

I ask you now, please don't post the reply, it wont help at all. In fact, it will weaken whatever side he rules "for", as John Spenser has consistently shown he has not a clue about the rules.

Gwar! wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Consists of 3-10 nobs.

@Night Lords: Give it up. I already Explained it to you, the Bikes are not a Nob Upgrade, they are a Unit Upgrade, so are kept when it becomes a Painboy.

And in that case, Regular Nob Bikers may not have claws, Eavy armour or any upgrade either, because now theyre called Nob Bikers, and there are no Nob Biker upgrades. So Nob Bikers are either Nobs on Bikes (an individual nob who can be upgraded to painboy, but loses his bike because, as you said, Painboys only have Doks tools as gear) or Nob Bikers (meaning you cant have a painboy since he cannot be upgraded from a Nob Biker).

You cant have it both ways. There is no way he can keep a bike as wargear from a nob, but not Eavy armour.

One person may be a firefighter.

"They are clearly not nobz" can't be your argument for them not being nobs.

Them not having the word "nob" in their name is a poor argument, as it's relevance is purely speculative.

Night Lords wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Consists of 3-10 nobs.

@Night Lords: Give it up. I already Explained it to you, the Bikes are not a Nob Upgrade, they are a Unit Upgrade, so are kept when it becomes a Painboy.

And in that case, Regular Nob Bikers may not have claws, Eavy armour or any upgrade either, because now theyre called Nob Bikers, and there are no Nob Biker upgrades. So Nob Bikers are either Nobs on Bikes (an individual nob who can be upgraded to painboy, but loses his bike because, as you said, Painboys only have Doks tools as gear) or Nob Bikers (meaning you cant have a painboy since he cannot be upgraded from a Nob Biker).

You cant have it both ways. There is no way he can keep a bike as wargear from a nob, but not Eavy armour.

I challenge you to put more words in my mouth. Just try.

Let me repeat the points one more time, nice and slow. Try to listen instead of setting me up as a straw man, okay?

You take a Nobz Mob.
You decide to upgrade the unit to Nob Bikers.
Every model in the unit now has a bike, because the unit is Nob Bikers.
You upgrade a nob to a painboy.
The painboy cannot take 'eavy armour. 'eavy armour is a nob upgrade, not a painboy upgrade. Painboys are not nobs.
The painboy rides a bike, because he is a part of a Nob Bikers Unit.
Individual nobs may be upgraded with additional wargear, because they are nobs.
The nobs are on bikes because they are a part of a Nob Biker Unit

Please forget about this 'nob biker' gak, because there is no such thing as a nob biker. The only time it appears in the codex is as a part of the unit name 'nob bikers'

Night Lords wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Consists of 3-10 nobs.

@Night Lords: Give it up. I already Explained it to you, the Bikes are not a Nob Upgrade, they are a Unit Upgrade, so are kept when it becomes a Painboy.

And in that case, Regular Nob Bikers may not have claws, Eavy armour or any upgrade either, because now theyre called Nob Bikers, and there are no Nob Biker upgrades. So Nob Bikers are either Nobs on Bikes (an individual nob who can be upgraded to painboy, but loses his bike because, as you said, Painboys only have Doks tools as gear) or Nob Bikers (meaning you cant have a painboy since he cannot be upgraded from a Nob Biker).

You cant have it both ways. There is no way he can keep a bike as wargear from a nob, but not Eavy armour.

Sorry, but a Nob Biker is still a nob. A Painboy is not a nob.

Orkeosaurus wrote:One person may be a firefighter.

"They are clearly not nobz" can't be your argument for them not being nobs.

Them not having the word "nob" in their name is a poor argument, as it's relevance is purely speculative.

Having a different name makes the unit a different unit.


Chaos Space Marine Havocs are not Chaos Space Marines. They have identical statlines and are similar, but they have a different name.

If having a different name and a separate statline are not sufficient for being different units, then the game of 40K is unplayable.

K page 99 , there is 2 distinct differences in wording the upgrades:

The Entire mob
vs
Any Nob

The Entire mob clearly means its a whole unit upgrade which will include the pain boy.

Which means Any Nob ( it HAS to be still a Nob , not a Nob = cannot take ) Pain boy is NOT a Nob

For example:

Any marine in a tactical squad may take 1 heavy weapon.
According to what you guys said , a Marine upgraded into a sergent is still a Marine.

That would also have to imply that the Upgraded Marine aka Sergent , is able to take heavy weapon. But we know its not so.

Thus samething goes with the "is pain boy still a NOB just because he was *upgraded* from a Nob" I would say 100% very no desu.

First of all, we're talking about models, not units. Painboys and nobs are in the same unit.

Second of all, why would the game be unplayable if a havoc was a type of chaos space marine? I'm not advocating allowing options to be chosen from outside your unit entry.

I'm not claiming that a painboy and a nob are one in the same. What I'm saying is that a painboy is a more specific subtype of nob. All painboys are nobs, not all nobs are painboys.

This is because there is no proof in the rules that a painboy loses his nob status.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Luna, the rules for the painboy do not say "upgrade".

Orkeosaurus wrote:First of all, we're talking about models, not units. Painboys and nobs are in the same unit.

Second of all, why would the game be unplayable if a havoc was a type of chaos space marine? I'm not advocating allowing options to be chosen from outside your unit entry.

I'm not claiming that a painboy and a nob are one in the same. What I'm saying is that a painboy is a more specific subtype of nob. All painboys are nobs, not all nobs are painboys.

This is because there is no proof in the rules that a painboy loses his nob status.

In a Tactical Squad, can a Sergeant take a heavy Weapon? No he cannot. Why? because he is a Sergeant, not a Tactical Marine. Exact same Situation.

Orkeosaurus wrote:
I'm not claiming that a painboy and a nob are one in the same. What I'm saying is that a painboy is a more specific subtype of nob. All painboys are nobs, not all nobs are painboys.

This is because there is no proof in the rules that a painboy loses his nob status.

Compared to:

Im not claiming that a Marine Sergent and a Marine are one in the same. What im saying is that a Marine Sergent is a more specific subtype of Marine. All Marine Sergents are marines , Not all Marines are Sergents.

This is because there is no proof in the rules that a Marine Sergent loses his marine status.

*Yet , why cant a Marine Sergent take heavy weapons or special weapons the same way a marine does?

Circular reasoning, Gwar!.

I'm saying that a painboy is a nob, ergo only you think that it's the same situation.

Luna, a sergeant is a space marine, he is not a tactical marine, so I don't know what you're trying to say here. A sergeant was never a tactical marine.

Gwar! wrote:THE PAINBOY IS NOT A NOB

QFT.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Circular reasoning.

I'm saying that a painboy is a nob, ergo only you think that it's the same situation.

What? How does that make sense?

It is the same situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Luna, a sergeant is a space marine, he is not a tactical marine, so I don't know what you're trying to say here. A sergeant was never a tactical marine.

Ok then, how about Chaos Space Marines and Aspiring Champions. If you make a CSM a AC, can he now take wargear available only to CSM? No he can't. Same way as a Painboy cannot take Nob wargear.

You have a nob. It may be a painboy. There is no implication there that the painboy is no longer a type of nob.

You have a sergeant. You get him along with some tactical marines when you buy the squad. He has never been one of the tactical marines, he is by no stretch of the imagination one now.

They're completely different situations.

When it says, "The entire mob may take..." it is because you can't have one nob with stikkbombs and the rest without. The same with bikes; you can't have one nob with a bike and the rest without.

The entries specific to individual nob wargear are because you can customize each nob, and the entire nob mob need not take all the same things.

I'm not weighing in here because I've already experienced Gwar's penchant to scream in huge font and call names when people prove him wrong.

An aspiring champion is an upgrade to a chaos marine. That implies that he is no longer one of the chaos marines, as he has become something better.

The entry for the painboy option makes no mention of it being an upgrade.

Orkeosaurus, following your reasoning, I could have a Heavy Weapon Team in an IG Infantry Squad that has a Lascannon, Plasma Rifle, and a Vox Caster. Do you really think that's true?

How is the wording on Cybork? Is it unit wide or per-nob?

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Orkeosaurus, following your reasoning, I could have a Heavy Weapon Team in an IG Infantry Squad that has a Lascannon, Plasma Rifle, and a Vox Caster. Do you really think that's true?

How is the wording on Cybork? Is it unit wide or per-nob?

It is a unit upgrade, and you need a painboy to get it (or mad Doc)

@Dashofpepper: Seriously, grow up.

Gwar! , may i ask an off topic question for someone else?


Around how many seperate case of GW rule confusions / discussions have you bump into so far?

Someone has been telling me GW rules are perfection and the other wargames = useless junk. I just want to ask so i can point this thread as example for his trolling arguments .

LunaHound wrote:Around how many seperate case of GW rule confusions / discussions have you bump into so far?

Someone has been telling me GW rules are perfection and the other wargames = useless junk. I just want to ask so i can point this thread as example for his trolling arguments .

Show them the Necron Codex, then burn it. Then the Tau Codex, and strap it to C4.

GW rules are The worst written in the hobby. The only reason people play it is because it is the most popular. Only reason I even play is because no-one else plays anything else where I am unless I travel 3 hours to game, which I cannot/will not do. It would take GW literally 3 weeks of work to release an update PDF to errata all the codexes, and then a few days every 3 months to put out new clarifications, but GW do not care about the actual hobbyist or the Veteran Gamer, just the 13 year olds they sell SPESS MAHRINES too.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Orkeosaurus, following your reasoning, I could have a Heavy Weapon Team in an IG Infantry Squad that has a Lascannon, Plasma Rifle, and a Vox Caster. Do you really think that's true?

That's rather different, as it's two models becoming one model, and thus it's impossible for it to be the same model it was before before the upgrade.

(Is the wording for the Heavy Weapon Teams still "may form"?)


Also, yes, GW is a poor rules writer, and their problems are further exasperated by refusing to update their codices with the new rulebook. However their refusal to errata their rules after problems surface is their biggest problem.

I think the Flash Gitz sold me on RAI. I agree with Gwar! anyway (and not just because he might stick me in his sig). RAI should almost always win out over RAW rules lawyering anyway. Games Workshop writes their rules poorly, but you can see what they were getting at.

The painboy cannot take 'eavy armour. 'eavy armour is a nob upgrade, not a painboy upgrade. Painboys are not nobs.
The painboy rides a bike, because he is a part of a [i]Nob Bikers Unit.


Where does it say that the unit is now called a "Nob Biker Unit"?? Youre making stuff up here. Youre saying, for some reason, a unit may be given war gear it doesnt even have because of the unit it is apart of. This makes no sense.

The argument on Gwars side is simple - Nobs can take bikes, armour and any other options - painboys are stuck with doks tools and thats it. It doesnt matter if it says "the entire mob", because at that point its talking about Nobs. According to Gwar, the painboys are restricted to Doks tools for war gear. Bikes are wargear, and are not listed under Painboys. If youre going to have a painboy with a bike, that means he could take armour too, because neither are listed under painboy. If youre going to count it as a seperate unit that only follows its 2 bullets, you cant cross over and give it bikes. Pick one way or the other.

Aside from that, anyone looking for a realistic view on this can easily see the reason for "the entire mob can" on bikes and stikkbombs are because you cant have half a unit with them and half without, as the 40k rules dont work like that. So anyone with common sense is going to laugh at this "entire mob" argument.

Only two ways to look at this:

Painboy has all Nob options and gear, and trades slugga and choppa only as RAW states

or

Painboy is completely different, get no Nob gear, and the only two options it can ever take are grot orderly and give nobs cybork bodies.


Very Simple

Night Lords wrote:The argument on Gwars side is simple - Nobs can take bikes, armour and any other options - painboys are stuck with doks tools and thats it.

I'll say this one last time:

STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

Painboys can take a bike because the Bike is a Unit Upgrade. Painboyz cannot take Nob Wargear because they are not Nobz.

Orkeosaurus wrote:You have a nob. It may be a painboy. There is no implication there that the painboy is no longer a type of nob.

You have a sergeant. You get him along with some tactical marines when you buy the squad. He has never been one of the tactical marines, he is by no stretch of the imagination one now.

They're completely different situations.

Wrong wrong wrong.

I buy 10 Chaos Marines for 15 points each, and its +15 more for an aspiring champion. So he was a marine.

Painboy is completely different, but is appart of the squad, therefore getting gear that applies to the entire squad.

Night Lords wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:You have a nob. It may be a painboy. There is no implication there that the painboy is no longer a type of nob.

You have a sergeant. You get him along with some tactical marines when you buy the squad. He has never been one of the tactical marines, he is by no stretch of the imagination one now.

They're completely different situations.

Wrong wrong wrong.

I buy 10 Chaos Marines for 15 points each, and its +15 more for an aspiring champion. So he was a marine.

Yeah, he WAS a marine, the same way the Painboy WAS a Nob, but is not anymore.

Night Lords wrote:
Wrong wrong wrong.

I buy 10 Chaos Marines for 15 points each, and its +15 more for an aspiring champion. So he was a marine.

I think he is just trolling you now G

LunaHound wrote:

Night Lords wrote:
Wrong wrong wrong.

I buy 10 Chaos Marines for 15 points each, and its +15 more for an aspiring champion. So he was a marine.

I think he is just trolling you now G

If a girl can work it out, us neckbeards should have figured it out long ago

Also Luna, where is your current avatar from?

LunaHound wrote:

Night Lords wrote:
Wrong wrong wrong.

I buy 10 Chaos Marines for 15 points each, and its +15 more for an aspiring champion. So he was a marine.

I think he is just trolling you now G

My god...it wasnt even a reply to Gwar. Please not accuse me of trolling someone when it isnt even directed at them. *shakes head*

RAI RAI RAI RAI RAI RAIRAIRAIRAIRAIRAIRIARIAIRIARIAIRAIRIARIAIRIARIAIRIARIAIRAIRIAIRAIRIARIAIRARAIRIARIAIRIARIAIRAIRIARIAIRIARIAIRAIRIAI

/thread

Wow, 100+ replies for a question I correctly answered in the first reply.

And they call me a troll!

MasticatorDeelux wrote:

My god...it wasnt even a reply to Gwar. Please not accuse me of trolling someone when it isnt even directed at them. *shakes head*

Yes that was my fault , i forfeit

@Gwar! its a fan art of Cirno 9

Gwar! wrote:Wow, 100+ replies for a question I correctly answered in the first reply.
And they call me a troll!

It must be your avatar , time for a new one i think.

Its a great way to get ones post count up.

EDIT: inb4 lock

Does anyone know where I can get some Space Corridors and Industrial Towers from?

LunaHound wrote:It must be your avatar , time for a new one i think.

But it is a cute baby picture of me

DarkHound wrote:RAI RAI RAI RAI RAI RAIRAIRAIRAIRAIRAIRIARIAIRIARIAIRAIRIARIAIRIARIAIRIARIAIRAIRIAIRAIRIARIAIRARAIRIARIAIRIARIAIRAIRIARIAIRIARIAIRAIRIAI

/thread

Exactly. Weve gone so far off with this insane nob bikers nonsense (where rules are being made up), and completely forgot that a it's just intended to have the painboy be a nob. A nob may be a painboy (aka a painboy may be a doctor), and only has to replace his slugga and choppa wargear, allowing him to take both bikes and Eavy Armour. Thanks everyone who opposed this obvious intention, as now itll be easy to stomp anyone who is insane enough to say otherwise.

Gwar! wrote:

@Dashofpepper: Seriously, grow up.

Hold on, YOU of all people are going to say this? You have a thing for screaming, lying down and beating you feet, ignoring rule quotes when it proves you wrong, and plugging your ears screaming "LALALALA" in maximum sized font to attempt shouting down anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Pot, meet kettle.

Night Lords wrote:

DarkHound wrote:RAI RAI RAI RAI RAI RAIRAIRAIRAIRAIRAIRIARIAIRIARIAIRAIRIARIAIRIARIAIRIARIAIRAIRIAIRAIRIARIAIRARAIRIARIAIRIARIAIRAIRIARIAIRIARIAIRAIRIAI

/thread

Exactly. Weve gone so far off with this insane nob bikers nonsense (where rules are being made up), and completely forgot that a it's just intended to have the painboy be a nob. A nob may be a painboy (aka a painboy may be a doctor), and only has to replace his slugga and choppa wargear, allowing him to take both bikes and Eavy Armour. Thanks everyone who opposed this obvious intention, as now itll be easy to stomp anyone who is insane enough to say otherwise.

I was refering to the Flash Gitz example, where the Nob was already equiped with 'Eavy Armor, then loses it to become a Painboy.

EDIT: Man, this part of the forum really IS great for getting your post count up.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

@Dashofpepper: Seriously, grow up.

Hold on, YOU of all people are going to say this? You have a thing for screaming, lying down and beating you feet, ignoring rule quotes when it proves you wrong, and plugging your ears screaming "LALALALA" in maximum sized font to attempt shouting down anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Pot, meet kettle.

Dashofpepper, I know you play pink orks (haha), how have you been playing it previous to this discussion in tournaments?

Oddly enough, both RaI and RaW provide the same result.

Amazing no?

Yes, I agree with Gwar! on RAW too. Wooh, I'm in the sig!

Night Lords wrote:Exactly. Weve gone so far off with this insane nob bikers nonsense (where rules are being made up), and completely forgot that a it's just intended to have the painboy be a nob. A nob may be a painboy (aka a painboy may be a doctor), and only has to replace his slugga and choppa wargear, allowing him to take both bikes and Eavy Armour. Thanks everyone who opposed this obvious intention, as now itll be easy to stomp anyone who is insane enough to say otherwise.

No. Everything you presume is false. The bikes are for an entire mob. A painboy is not a nob. A painboy cannot take heavy armor. You are wrong. Merely recapping one side of an argument with the airs of a pompous ass doesn't lend your argument true.

Night Lords wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

@Dashofpepper: Seriously, grow up.

Hold on, YOU of all people are going to say this? You have a thing for screaming, lying down and beating you feet, ignoring rule quotes when it proves you wrong, and plugging your ears screaming "LALALALA" in maximum sized font to attempt shouting down anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Pot, meet kettle.

Dashofpepper, I know you play pink orks (haha), how have you been playing it previous to this discussion in tournaments?

My painboys always have 'eavy armor, just like the rest of of his nob squad, which I'm quite comfortable with the rules supporting.

Folks pointing to a unit upgrade of a sergeant is a poor analogy and unrelated. Upgrading a marine to a sergeant is like upgrading a boy to a nob in a boyz squad. The Ork codex makes a nob a painboy through the addition of two pieces of wargear. Honestly though, I'm not planning on getting embroiled in this debate though, I've been subjected to enough childishness by Gwar in other threads; if I wanted to put up with a freakin' baby, my wife and I would have kids.

MasticatorDeelux wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Exactly. Weve gone so far off with this insane nob bikers nonsense (where rules are being made up), and completely forgot that a it's just intended to have the painboy be a nob. A nob may be a painboy (aka a painboy may be a doctor), and only has to replace his slugga and choppa wargear, allowing him to take both bikes and Eavy Armour. Thanks everyone who opposed this obvious intention, as now itll be easy to stomp anyone who is insane enough to say otherwise.

No. Everything you presume is false. The bikes are for an entire mob. A painboy is not a nob. A painboy cannot take heavy armor. You are wrong. Merely recapping one side of an argument with the airs of a pompous ass doesn't lend your argument true.

No, everything you presume is false, because its entirely based on the false speculation that a nob is not a painboy, and even then, the rules for upgrading seperate units with no such wargear is laughable at best. Merely stating someone is wrong and you are right doesnt mean jack squat either

Pretty easy to say.

Thanks for the debate guys, like I said, now itll be easy to squash anyone who comes up with these insane arguments. Looking forward to the next one.

No, stating someone is wrong when backed with the rules as written/intended does.


HERPADERP ARGUMENT

Gwar! wrote:But it is a cute baby picture of me

Flash Gitz Painboy loses his armor. Flash Gitz are Nobs with fancy guns. The intention is that Painboyz don't get armor. The fact that the rules can be disputed as much as they are means you go over to RAI (even though I think Gwar! and the rest are right). I mean, the Flash Gitz example is so perfect, what do you have to debunk that?

4 Pages of this Dreck.

INB4LK.

Hmmm. "Am I the only one who plays by the rules here?"

A Stelecktanious statement as I have ever read.

DarkHound wrote:Flash Gitz Painboy loses his armor. Flash Gitz are Nobs with fancy guns. The intention is that Painboyz don't get armor. The fact that the rules can be disputed as much as they are means you go over to RAI (even though I think Gwar! and the rest are right). I mean, the Flash Gitz example is so perfect, what do you have to debunk that?

I think DarkHound is right.

Lets take a step around away from "try proving GW! wrong"

to relook at what the rule should be.

akira5665 wrote:4 Pages of this Dreck.

INB4LK.

Hmmm. "Am I the only one who plays by the rules here?"

A Stelecktanious statement as I have ever read.

Oh noes, I like playing by the rules. I clearly must be purged and burninated!

So we wait for a WD battle report featuring the painboy with eavy armor ... even then...

Remember the whole Shoota boy Nob with power klaw debate? Didn't the author of the codex use one in a battle report and it still took a FAQ to convince some?

orkcommander wrote:
So we wait for a WD battle report featuring the painboy with eavy armor ... even then...

Remember the whole Shoota boy Nob with power klaw debate? Didn't the author of the codex use one in a battle report and it still took a FAQ to convince some?

Even authors make mistakes. And GW battle reports are always full of errors and mistakes. It doesn't also take a genius to realise they are all staged anyway.

I feel obligated to remind you guys this...

All these anger and energy should be redirected at the writter of these rules.

Not at each other.

Night Lords wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:You have a nob. It may be a painboy. There is no implication there that the painboy is no longer a type of nob.

You have a sergeant. You get him along with some tactical marines when you buy the squad. He has never been one of the tactical marines, he is by no stretch of the imagination one now.

They're completely different situations.

Wrong wrong wrong.

I buy 10 Chaos Marines for 15 points each, and its +15 more for an aspiring champion. So he was a marine.

Huh? Let's review those posts once more folks:

You have a sergeant. You get him along with some tactical marines when you buy the squad.

I buy 10 Chaos Marines for 15 points each, and its +15 more for an aspiring champion.

Also, now I can't tell Gwar! and Dashofpepper apart. Thanks a lot guys.

MasticatorDeelux wrote:Does anyone know where I can get some Space Corridors and Industrial Towers from?

Likto Aerosystems, now get back on topic.

Wow. That was the most enjoyable read I think I've ever had.

Each army has it's little quirks and exploits. Each persons playing style is going to fit with the army they choose to play.

As GW always likes to point out "The primary rule is to have fun", which sad to say this post has shown why 40k is the most popular, and why GW is lax to fix things.

In this case, as well as with many others, the two sides are likely never to see/play each other and this post has become I'm right.

I don't have a pitch either way, as I do play Orks and have Nob bikers and have Painboys.

But overall, why would I upgrade a Painboy on a bike with 'eavy armor in the first place (regardless of whethere I could or not) since the bike gives me a 4+ save?

Anyway, enjoy the rants boys. Each tourney you go to will tell you which of you is right/wrong by their own rulings and as I assume neither of you would play each other at your FLGS or home, it's a moot issue at this point.

It comes into play when you get them without bikes.

It was worth getting trolled to get into Gwar!'s sig.

Just saying.

Oh yeah, I know what you mean.

EDIT: still inb4lock

Army Builder lets me equip a Pain Boy with 'Eavy Armour... then again... Army Builder has been known to been wrong sometimes.


EDIT: It lets me put 'Eavy Armour on the Nobz unit Pain Boy but not on the Flash Gitz unit Pain Boy

EDIT again: Maybe I should bother reading more than just a couple pages of this saga before bothering to offer anything...

Gwar I can't say I approve of your new avatar.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Gwar I can't say I approve of your new avatar.

Darn i loved it ... cant stop giggling when ever i see it.

It strikes me as a rather Gwar avatar.

djphranq:

Army Builder lets me equip a Pain Boy with 'Eavy Armour... then again... Army Builder has been known to been wrong sometimes.


EDIT: It lets me put 'Eavy Armour on the Nobz unit Pain Boy but not on the Flash Gitz unit Pain Boy

EDIT again: Maybe I should bother reading more than just a couple pages of this saga before bothering to offer anything...

My interpretation on this is that pg 103 Ork codex specifically states the Painboy replaces his 'eavy armor for Dok's tools and 'urty syringe. the Painboy entry under Nobz does not. I suspect the Painboy was not meant to have 'eavy armor for either unit and GW failboat editing staff just wasn't clear under the Nobz entry.


orkcommander:

So we wait for a WD battle report featuring the painboy with eavy armor ... even then...

Remember the whole Shoota boy Nob with power klaw debate? Didn't the author of the codex use one in a battle report and it still took a FAQ to convince some?

pg 40 Ork codex "One boy may be upgraded to a Nob
pg 98 Ork codex "One Nob may be a Painboy"

I read this as the Painboy in the Nob unit is never a Nob to begin with unlike the Nob in the boyz unit who is a boy at first with x Wargear and they upgraded to a Nob with y Wargear selection.


Anyway, thats my 2d6

LunaHound wrote:
I feel obligated to remind you guys this...

All these anger and energy should be redirected at the writter of these rules.

Not at each other.

Trying to stir up a revolution, are we?

That maybe how you read it but however the majority of the people that play the game read it the other way. My point is all of the people arguing passionately against the shoota boy Nob with power klaw reading it that they can’t and thinking that they were right but they weren’t.

I don’t think one fella with or without eavy armor is a game breaker. I play by RAW but if my opponent complained or was upset that my painboy has eavy armor I would just say “ok he doesn’t have it now” and move on. After all I can’t have fun if my opponent isn’t having fun and fun is why I play 40k. Everyone needs to remember that 40k is just a kiddy game of army men that doesn’t mean anything and that there are too many stresses in real life to let it bother you.

Remember GW is a mini company not a game company. They don’t make money with faqs, in fact the less clear the rules are the more minis & bits they can sell to people to convert minis to their personal understanding of the rules.

orkcommander wrote:Remember GW is a mini company not a game company. They don’t make money with faqs, in fact the less clear the rules are the more minis & bits they can sell to people to convert minis to their personal understanding of the rules.

Sorry, that is wrong. Without the rules, people wont buy the minis. For years now GW have been pissing about with their rules, and it can only go on for so long before the 10 year olds buying spess mahrines dry up.

LunaHound wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Gwar I can't say I approve of your new avatar.

Darn i loved it ... cant stop giggling when ever i see it.

lol same but the thing is I remember you all by your avatars so when you change, it takes me a couple of hours before I read your name and find out it's you Also I see that you changed back to your old avatar luna

EDIT- Now to get back to topic, isn't the 5+ invulnerable save enough for you people??!! Besides Gwar! is right, a Painboy is NOT a nob just like an apothecary is not a veteran although I know it's not upgraded to the squad and a painboy is.

Che-Vito wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
I feel obligated to remind you guys this...

All these anger and energy should be redirected at the writter of these rules.

Not at each other.

Trying to stir up a revolution, are we?

No , its just the truth. Because both sides agree its so badly written thats why it has so many interpretations .
Since dakka members didnt write the rules , so its natural to be mad at the writter not at each other?

Gwar's spot on to be honest, the clarification the entire unit can be upgraded to nob bikers, is about the unit title not what's on the bike.

By all getting on bikes they are now a Nob bikers Unit, not a nob unit. That doesn't exclude the painboy one way or the other, but he still can't take any gear listed as nob.

By the reasoning in this thread I could take a Terminator squad and then upgrade the Assualt cannon bearer to be the Sgt keeping the Assault cannon on the Sgt.

Maybe if the GW rules were written with the same attention to detail and clarity that pervade the average YMDC post, then Luna might have some sort of point. Dakka members are the last people I'd pay attention to when it comes to evaluating the clarity of writing.

I understand GWAR!'s point, and yet at the same time have to disagree because I believe a painboy would only cease to be a Nob if the entry said one nob may be "REPLACED" by a painboy, as it says one nob "MAY" be a painboy, by the english language( GW forbid actually understanding the english language) implies that it is a nob as a painboy, and never ceases being a nob.

gameandwatch wrote:I understand GWAR!'s point, and yet at the same time have to disagree because I believe a painboy would only cease to be a Nob if the entry said one nob may be "REPLACED" by a painboy, as it says one nob "MAY" be a painboy, by the english language( GW forbid actually understanding the english language) implies that it is a nob as a painboy, and never ceases being a nob.

Can you prove that he is a nob? Considering his profile changes from "nob" to "painboy", should be more than enough to show that he is not a Nob. he may have BEEN a nob, but is not one, so cannot have nob wargear.

Yeah, but RaI Flash Gitz example yo! RaW can go either way (with enough yelling) so go RaI.

Evidence that the Painboy can take 'Eavy Armour: It says "One Nob may be a Painboy." rather than "may be upgraded to..."

Evidence against: It says "One Nob may be a Painboy." rather than "may also be..."

In the SM rulebook, it refers specifically to "scouts, scout sergeants or models" to clarify exactly when and who can do what. By this logic, it should say "any model" if Painboyz can take 'eavy armour.

Flash Gitz lose their 'eavy armour when they become Painboyz.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
There IS an interesting logic that when Nobz become Nob Bikers they cease to be Nobz and therefore cannot become Painboyz.

I wonder if they removed the "upgraded to" from the Painboy line so it was still possible to do both?

More likely it was just missed by GW...

At the end of the day and by the strictest RAW a painboy can have eavy armor. If your interpretation is that he can’t you can still play that way even when that’s absolutely wrong because of the number one rule “ to have fun” and if that’s the only way you can have fun then so be it. If I played anyone that didn’t want to play RAW I would let them, it would be like giving a baby keys to play with to keep it quite, life’s too short.

A retort to those who said far earlier in the thread that all upgrades happen at once and you can't choose which order to do things in, from the Ork codex FAQ

GW wrote:
Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas
with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a
big choppa?
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big
choppa or power klaw before you choose to
upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case
the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon
swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap),
does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga
and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot
happier that way!

orkcommander wrote:At the end of the day and by the strictest RAW a painboy can have eavy armor. If your interpretation is that he can’t you can still play that way even when that’s absolutely wrong because of the number one rule “ to have fun” and if that’s the only way you can have fun then so be it. If I played anyone that didn’t want to play RAW I would let them, it would be like giving a baby keys to play with to keep it quite, life’s too short.

Actually, the RaW is he cannot, but whatever floats your boat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fifty wrote:A retort to those who said far earlier in the thread that all upgrades happen at once and you can't choose which order to do things in, from the Ork codex FAQ

GW wrote:
Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas
with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a
big choppa?
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big
choppa or power klaw before you choose to
upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case
the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon
swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap),
does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga
and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot
happier that way!

Protip: That applies ONLY TO THE BOYZ NOB! No one else.
Protip #2: GW FAQ are nothing but house rules, and as such are not binding. Even they admit their FAQ's mean nothing.
Protip #3: Removing Linebreaks makes things easier to read.

Gwar! wrote:Can you prove that he is a nob? Considering his profile changes from "nob" to "painboy", should be more than enough to show that he is not a Nob. he may have BEEN a nob, but is not one, so cannot have nob wargear.

It's known that he was a nob.

There's no proof that he ceases to be one due to being a painboy. Thus, he is still a nob.


As for RaI, who cares? Cybork body is better than 'Eavy Armor, and a Warbike is better than both. Who cares about "rules lawyers" trying to get an advantage that's inferior to the advantages you can get without delving into a rules controversy?

Gwar you can have my keys.

Orkeosaurus wrote:There's no proof that he ceases to be one due to being a painboy. Thus, he is still a nob.

yes there is, you know, the whole new profile and unit entry for one.

Gwar! wrote:

Fifty wrote:A retort to those who said far earlier in the thread that all upgrades happen at once and you can't choose which order to do things in, from the Ork codex FAQ

GW wrote:
Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a big choppa?
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big choppa or power klaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot happier that way!

Protip: That applies ONLY TO THE BOYZ NOB! No one else.

Well, if one unit can apply in order rather than all at once, I fail to see how others have to do it all at once.

Protip #2: GW FAQ are nothing but house rules, and as such are not binding. Even they admit their FAQ's mean nothing.

They hold at least as much weight as you do

Protip #3: Removing Linebreaks makes things easier to read.

I just posted it the way the (professional, big) company does it in the FAQ it came from and elsewhere.

So it has a new profile. And model entry.

I'm not saying that they're one and the same, I'm saying that one is a subset of the other. Having an entry for a more specific subtype separate from that of the main entry just makes sense.

Orkeosaurus wrote:So it has a new profile. And model entry.

I'm not saying that they're one and the same, I'm saying that one is a subset of the other. Having an entry for a more specific subtype separate from that of the main entry just makes sense.

Sorry, but that is not good enough. It does not say anything to indicate that they are the same. By your logic, Aspiring Champions can take Heavy Weapons, even though the entry says only Chaos Space Marines may take them.

In that case the chaos marine is "upgraded" to an aspiring champion.

A nob "may be a painboy".

It's not necessary that they're indicated to be the same, it's necessary that the painboy is indicated to cease being a nob. That indication is not made.

Orkeosaurus wrote:In that case the chaos marine is "upgraded" to an aspiring champion.

A nob "may be a painboy".

It's not necessary that they're indicated to be the same, it's necessary that the painboy is indicated to cease being a nob. That indication is not made.

It is made, by the adoption of a different profile.

Sorry, I should have said, "that is not proved".

Using the profile as way of trying to learn "intent" does not supersede the direct wording of the option.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Sorry, I should have said, "that is not proved".

Using the profile as way of trying to learn "intent" does not supersede the direct wording of the option.

Yes, the wording that says it is a Painboy, not a Nob.

It says that it is a painboy. It does not say it is no longer a nob, nor is that implied in the wording that concerns the painboy option.

Orkeosaurus wrote:It says that it is a painboy. It does not say it is no longer a nob, nor is that implied in the wording that concerns the painboy option.

How does that make sense? It is a Painboy, not a nob. Unless it says he stays a Nob, he doesn't. Why? because he has a Painboy Profile, not a Nob profile. The wording is the same in the Flash Gitz rules too, are you saying a Painboy can buy Flash Gitz Upgrades?

He does stay a nob, because he was a nob and never ceased being one.

He ceased being one when he got his new profile. Same thing with every other Squad Leader.

There are no flash git specific upgrades. A painboy doesn't have a snazzgun, so it's irrelevant to him.

Orkeosaurus wrote:He does stay a nob, because he was a nob and never ceased being one.

yes, he did, when he became a Painboy. Look at the codex. Painboyz have their own Unit Entry, so they are clearly not Nobz. They do not have Nob in their name, nor do they have the same profile. They are, for all intents and purposes, a totally separate model.

A painboy is not a squad leader, but regardless most squad leaders are an upgrade. Painboys are not.

Orkeosaurus wrote:A painboy is not a squad leader, but regardless most squad leaders are an upgrade. Painboys are not.

Irrelevant. He is not a Nob, he is a Painboy. It does not say Painboys are Nobs, so they are not.

I was saying Squad Leader to generalize Aspiring Champs, SM Sargeants, Eldar Warlocks, etc.. It was an example of a unit in a squad that got a new profile, making it unable to take special weapons aviable to the other members of the squad.

Who cares if they have separate unit entry? Painboys are not a separate unit, that's not even up for debate.

As for whether they're a separate model, I'm not claiming that they're the same, I'm claiming that they're a subset of the nobs.

As for why they have their own entry? Who knows, they probably wanted them to have their own little fluff section.

Heh, actually Gwar, the Painboy does get the bonuses from the Flash Git upgrades, as it is a unit wide effect. This also means that Kaptin' Badrukk gets them aswell, on his already amazing gun. I think this might make me rethink my plans to get Flashgitz.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Who cares if they have separate unit entry? Painboys are not a separate unit, that's not even up for debate.

As for whether they're a separate model, I'm not claiming that they're the same, I'm claiming that they're a subset of the nobs.

As for why they have their own entry? Who knows, they probably wanted them to have their own little fluff section.

What proof do you have they are a subsection of Nobs? None. They Used to be nobs, but they are not nobs anymore the moment they become painboys because.... wait for it.... Painboys are not Nobs!

Gwar, a painboy was a nob, and never ceased to be a nob, thus he is still a nob. But I've already told you that several times, so you're just repeating yourself.

DarkHound, your generalization is for entries where a model is upgraded to a different type of model. A nob may be a painboy, it's not an upgrade in that sense. I've said this already as well.

DarkHound wrote:Heh, actually Gwar, the Painboy does get the bonuses from the Flash Git upgrades, as it is a unit wide effect. This also means that Kaptin' Badrukk gets them aswell, on his already amazing gun. I think this might make me rethink my plans to get Flashgitz.

LOl. Woops, mistake by me there. Yeah they are Unit effects. My bad

Circular logic, Gwar.

"They cease to be nobs because they're not nobs because they cease to be nobs because they're not nobs beca..."

Orkeosaurus wrote:Gwar, a painboy was a nob, and never ceased to be a nob, thus he is still a nob. But I've already told you that several times, so you're just repeating yourself.

You have yet to prove that he remains a nob, while i have proved several times over he does not. Other than "because I want him to", what actual proof do you have that says he remains a Nob? because I have both RaI and RaW arguments that say he is not and cannot buy 'Eavy Armour.

Wait, I ammend that. It only works on Snazzguns. So, they get the effects but have nothing for the bonusses to improve.

He was a nob, there is no proof that he ceases to be one, ergo he is a nob.

You don't need to prove that no change has been made, only that a change has been made. Things are constant unless proven otherwise.

Orkeosaurus wrote:He was a nob, there is no proof that he ceases to be one, ergo he is a nob.

yes there is. I have told you time and time again. Look at the Painboys Profile. Does it say "Nob painboy"? No, it doesn't. Does it say "May be a Painboy while remaining a Nob", no it doesn't. Why make a Distinction between "Any Model" and "Any Nob" for the wargear?

Once more with feeling:
BECAUSE THE PAINBOY IS NOT A NOB

But a change HAS been made. He gave up his Nob profile for the Painboy profile. If Painboyz had an extra wound, could you still say he is still a Nob? No, Nobs have a different profile because they are different.

They are different. They're a more specific subtype of nob. That makes them different, but still a nob.

As for "any model" and "any nob"? Who knows. It's a "nob mob". Why does it say "may be a painboy" if they want to make the nob cease to be one?

Games Workshop is bad at writing.

Orkeosaurus wrote:They are different. They're a more specific subtype of nob. That makes them different, but still a nob.

Yeah, that would work, if only it were stated the Painboy is a Nob, which it isn't.

It doesn't need to state it. It needs to state that it ceases to be one.


We're still going around in circles.

Where does any codex or rule say anything about subtypes. If models have different profiles, they are different.

Orkeosaurus wrote:It doesn't need to state it. It needs to state that it ceases to be one.


We're still going around in circles.

Yes, because you won't realise that it does state it, by giving him a different profile.

"Subtype" isn't a designation in the rules, it's a word in the English Language.

A nob is a subtype of ork. Things that effect orks effect them.

A painboy is a subtype of nob. Options available to nobs are available to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not looking at the intent behind the profile. I'm looking at the rules that govern the upgrade.

Orkeosaurus wrote:"Subtype" isn't a designation in the rules, it's a word in the English Language.

So Is Idiot.

It is not a Nob. One Nob may be a Painboy. That is it. It cannot be a Nob and a Painboy, specifically because it has a different profile. If a Painboy had an extra wound, would you still be contending it is a nob?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'm not looking at the intent behind the profile. I'm looking at the rules that govern the upgrade.

No, you are arguing intent (aka I WANNA HAVE AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE). Nowhere does it say painboys are a subtype of nob whatsoever.

Sure. What does a wound have to do with it?


Unfair advantage? No.

Eavy armor is a waste. Bikes are better for a tooled up squad, cybork body is better for cheap squad. A really cheap squad would only have eavy armor if it didn't have a painboy at all (and was thus unable to purchase cybork body).

Okay, here is my logic...

Painboyz have their own page, and it does not refer to them as Nobs on that page, so they are not Nobs. In fact, it says that they follow Nobs into battle, not that they are one of them.

Nob Bikers do not have their own page, so they are still Nobz, and thus Nob Bikers can be upgraded to Painboy status.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarkHound wrote:Heh, actually Gwar, the Painboy does get the bonuses from the Flash Git upgrades, as it is a unit wide effect. This also means that Kaptin' Badrukk gets them aswell, on his already amazing gun. I think this might make me rethink my plans to get Flashgitz.

No, because it specifically says these upgades apply to Snazzguns, and Badruk carries da Rippa, not a Snazzgun.

There is no way you can argue that RaW da Rippa is a Snazzgun

Poor flash gits. Truly the black sheep of the ork codex.

pg 40 Ork codex "One boy may be upgraded to a Nob
pg 98 Ork codex "One Nob may be a Painboy"

I read this as the Painboy in the Nob unit is never a Nob to begin with unlike the Nob in the boyz unit who is a boy at first with x Wargear and they upgraded to a Nob with y Wargear selection.

This. I like this. It fits to have different wording because the authors had a different intent. In the fluff, Nobz don't become painboyz. Painboyz are born painboyz. Nobs do, however, come from Boyz. So a boy can be upgraded to a nob. But a nob isn't upgraded to a painboy. The painboy is completely different.
Boyz Mob Nobs can carry around Rokkits. That is understandable and follows the Rule of Cool. (someone should convert that)
However, giving a painboy the Waaagh! banner is stupid.

Thus, the RaI and RaW come together neatly. Painboyz, never having been intended to have heavy armour, ammo runts, or waaagh banners, have a different wording to prevent [that - edited to remove argumentativeness.] from occurring.




Also, Orkeosaurus, logically, the burden of proof is on you. Logically, when you see two different things, like a tree and a bush, they are considered different until proven the same. When two things are clearly different, one does not need to prove that they are different, because it is obvious. Instead, it is up to you to prove that they are the same, in spite of being very clearly different.

You don't look at a desk (which is made of wood and called a desk) and a car (which is made of metal and called a car) and say that they are the same.
So, why look at a painboy (which has profile X and called a painboy) and a nob (which has profile Y and called a nob) and say that they are the same.

Orkestra puts it very very well.

Also, is than an Orkordion in your avatar?

Because a painboy was a nob. It has never been proven to cease being one, ergo it still is one.

What it "looks like" is irrelevant, the actuality of the rules are not effected by it.

You don't look at a person (which is called a person) and a firefighter (which is called a firefighter) and say that they are the same thing. However, you do say that a firefighter is a person, even though most people are not firefighters.

A nob and a painboy are both made out of words and numbers, so your comparison of materials is faulty.

(Also "ur stoopid! dis is c00l, dats stoopid!" isn't any sort of argument. Maybe I think it's stupid that a nob can fire a rocket launcher with one hand, but I have no problem with a doctor wearing armor in the middle of a battlefield.)

You don't look at a person (which is called a person) and a firefighter (which is called a firefighter) and say that they are the same thing. However, you do say that a firefighter is a person, even though most people are not firefighters.

That's actually not a relevant example, as it is comparing a species to a more specialized version of the species. I already understand that both a painboy and a nob are orks. Just like a firefighter and a musician are both people.

But a firefighter isn't necessarily a musician, which is the point I'm trying to make.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Because a painboy was a nob. It has never been proven to cease being one, ergo it still is one.

It Is proven, by the fact of different profiles and different wargear options and different unit entries. A painboy is no more a nob than a Deffkopta is a Warboss.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Because a painboy was a nob. It has never been proven to cease being one, ergo it still is one.

What it "looks like" is irrelevant, the actuality of the rules are not effected by it.

You don't look at a person (which is called a person) and a firefighter (which is called a firefighter) and say that they are the same thing. However, you do say that a firefighter is a person, even though most people are not firefighters.

A nob and a painboy are both made out of words and numbers, so your comparison of materials is faulty.

(Also "ur stoopid! dis is c00l, dats stoopid!" isn't any sort of argument. Maybe I think it's stupid that a nob can fire a rocket launcher with one hand, but I have no problem with a doctor wearing armor in the middle of a battlefield.)

Sorry Orkeosaurus, but you are wrong. I wish you weren't. If you read the page in the army list the same way I do, it suggests that a Painboy is a subset of Nob. (Some people do not even agree with that reading of the army list pages). However, if you read the Painboy description it is clear that Painboyz and Nobz are two different things. The very fact that they have their own separate pages means they are not the same thing. Further to that, Painboyz are not referred to in that descrption as a type of Nob. Still further, it says they follow Nobs into battle. If the Painboy were a Nob, that would be a logical disconnect as one of those he were following would be himself.

I know that last bit is description, not rules, but it backs up the interpretation of the rules that many people here have reached.


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In terms of the semantics of the situation, it depends on whether the two things are things you do or things you are.

A policeman becoming a fireman stops being a policeman.

A blonde becoming a fireman remains a blonde.

Now, that logic suggests that if a Nob is something you ARE (true, according to fluff) then becoming a Painboy would not remove your Nobbyness.

However, fluff also says that Painboyz were not Nobz to begin with, and if we are accepting fluff, we get right back to where we started!!!

This is fun!

Orkestra wrote:That's actually not a relevant example, as it is comparing a species to a more specialized version of the species.

That's what makes it relevant. A painboy is a type of nob, which is a type of ork.

Nob is a social class, short for noble. Painboy is an occupation. Fluffwise, a painboy must be a nob, as there is no other way he could have the stats he does. Those stats are a direct result of being part of the larger, more experienced in combat class of orks called nobs. Fluffwise flash gits are also nobs, although that is not applicable from a rules point of view. A big mek is a nob as well, although once again that is not applicable from a rules standpoint.

Fifty wrote:Sorry Orkeosaurus, but you are wrong. I wish you weren't. If you read the page in the army list the same way I do, it suggests that a Painboy is a subset of Nob. (Some people do not even agree with that reading of the army list pages). However, if you read the Painboy description it is clear that Painboyz and Nobz are two different things. The very fact that they have their own separate pages means they are not the same thing. Further to that, Painboyz are not referred to in that as a type of Nob. Still further, it says they follow Nobs into battle. If the Painboy were a Nob, that would be a logical disconnect as one of those he were following would be himself.

As far as what the fluff is, that's not a rule. Separate pages? Yeah, a painboy has additional rules that a nob does not. Separate pages means nothing, it's not a rule that because something is on a separate page it cannot be a subtype of something on a different page.

Why does a painboy follow other nobs around? That's how gets more money. Doctors can follow people around, they're still people.

The only part of the codex that is the rules governing the option for the painboy doesn't make any implication that a painboy ceases to be a nob.

Orkeosaurus wrote:[The only part of the codex that is the rules governing the option for the painboy doesn't make any implication that a painboy ceases to be a nob.

EXCEPT THAT IT DOES. How many times do we have to tell you, different profile means it is not a Nob anymore.

No, it means it has a different profile. Nothing more.

Orkeosaurus wrote:No, it means it has a different profile. Nothing more.

The profile is what defines what a model is.

Orkeosaurus, you can't infer from two things having the same stats that they are the same thing. If that were the case, Flash Gitz = Nobz, which they clearly do not, (unless you believe a Warboss allows Flash Gitz to be taken as a Troop Choice?)

You also imply, though you do not explicitly say that having a profession makes you a Nob. Well, even in our society, being a doctor does not make you a noble, nor even upper class, so I do not see how parallel logic would work for orks.

Anyway, now to flip everythin I just said on its head and prove that both sides still have arguments open to them and to see if I can keep this thread going for longer...

That section of the codex is stunningly badly worded.

If Zogrot is NOT a Nob, then how can he be a Painboy, as in order to be a Painboy, he MUST be a Nob, as there is no permission given for anyone who is NOT a Nob to be a Painboy!!

Only Nobs "may" be a Painboy. It doesn't say anyone else can be one!! Aaargh!

This is making me laugh.


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Also, Orkeosaurus, do you think Painboyz should be allowed bosspoles or Waaargh! Banners? Ammo runts?

The Nob is an occupation in orky society. They are a Nob because they are in charge. They are in charge because of their size. They are big because they fight a lot.

So, a painboy has the same stats as a Nob because the painboy has been around the block. The painboy is, however, a painboy because he is a Doctor. The Painboy is not a Nob, because he is not in charge of anyone. Same with Meks and Weirdboyz. Size does not make the ork a Nob, the fact that he leads is what makes the ork a nob.
You can have Nobs of various units, like a stormboy Nob. If you were able to take a unit made up entirely of Painboyz, you could have a Painboy Nob. However, painboyz are just painboyz. Not Nob painboyz.

RaW, all models in the Ork Army (except for vehicles and gretchin) are Orks. 'Ork' can be a general description because there are no specific models just called an 'Ork'. The closest thing we have is an Ork Boy. So we know that Ork isn't a specific name for a model, but is instead a general descriptor given to models.

There is, however, a model named a 'Nob'. Nowhere, though, does it describe special rules for 'nobs' It describes the model 'nob', but we know that Nob refers to that model, not to a general type, unlike Orks. In order for a model to fall under a 'subtype' it has to have that subtype before it's name. Hence why we have 'Ork Nobz' and ' Kommando Nobz' yet no 'Nob Painboyz'


Ork society has different rules for regular boyz and Oddboyz (weirdboyz, painboyz, meks, and runtherds), which is why a Mek is either a Mek or a Big Mek, instead of being a Mek or a Mek Nob/ Nob Mek. Nobs only come from regular boyz.

Some more tangential evidence.... (as if tangential evidence is going to sway anyone in this thread...)

Da Nobz have their own page in the gallery pages of the codex.

Painboyz are on the page entitled "Oddboyz"

In fact, Painboyz have always been Oddboyz in the fluff, not Nobz.

*sighs* Ah... happy memories of Waargh! Da Orkz and Freebooterz...

It's almost like Orks in real life. Which one of us Nobs is vying for title of Warlord?

I'm taking my chances with my Avatar (Loota Mek with RokkitS! - which btw, is also not a nob!).

Nobz have their own profile in the Ork Codex. So do Painboyz.

Appreciate all the rhetoric and symatics, but Painboy does not equal Nob nor subset. Painboy does equal Painboy, and Nob does equal Nob, and Mek equals Mek, so on and so forth.

You pay for the painboy's ability, that's all. As has been stated adding 'Eavy Armor to a Painboy is futile as even in a mixed squad, he's getting a better save without taking the points for the upgrade.

So why has this reached 7 pages now?

Uriels_Flame wrote:So why has this reached 7 pages now?

No Idea, especially as I answered the question in the first reply.

Orkestra wrote:Size does not make the ork a Nob, the fact that he leads is what makes the ork a nob.

Wrong. Size is what makes a nob. Orks only grow larger because they are meaner and bossier than those around them. Authority and size are one and the same for orks.

There is, however, a model named a 'Nob'. Nowhere, though, does it describe special rules for 'nobs' It describes the model 'nob', but we know that Nob refers to that model, not to a general type, unlike Orks. In order for a model to fall under a 'subtype' it has to have that subtype before it's name. Hence why we have 'Ork Nobz' and ' Kommando Nobz' yet no 'Nob Painboyz'

Why does it have to say it in it's name? As you yourself noted, nobs are not called Ork Nobs in their profile.

This "must not be a model" criteria is arbitrary. Where in the rules does it say this?

Ork society has different rules for regular boyz and Oddboyz (weirdboyz, painboyz, meks, and runtherds), which is why a Mek is either a Mek or a Big Mek, instead of being a Mek or a Mek Nob/ Nob Mek. Nobs only come from regular boyz.

Size is the same thing as authority. Take "Painboss", the old HQ choice for doks, as an example of the oddboys having authority.

In the fluff, not all doks/painboys are of the nob class, but regular doks didn't have nob stats either; they have boy stats, same as a mek. The painboys available in the codex are all nobs, as they all have nob stats. The current painboys are the equivalent of the painbosses of the prior codex, although they are no longer an HQ choice.

Weirdboys are largely ostracized from ork society so they have a different track.

And what is all these fluff arguments?

The rules say he is not a nob (as evidenced by the separate profile), so he isn't. If he was gonna stay a nob, why give him a separate profile at all?

And we move on to page 8.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

There is, however, a model named a 'Nob'. Nowhere, though, does it describe special rules for 'nobs' It describes the model 'nob', but we know that Nob refers to that model, not to a general type, unlike Orks. In order for a model to fall under a 'subtype' it has to have that subtype before it's name. Hence why we have 'Ork Nobz' and ' Kommando Nobz' yet no 'Nob Painboyz'

Check the relative size of Nob and Painboy models then... Painboyz look clearly smaller to me.

Ork society has different rules for regular boyz and Oddboyz (weirdboyz, painboyz, meks, and runtherds), which is why a Mek is either a Mek or a Big Mek, instead of being a Mek or a Mek Nob/ Nob Mek. Nobs only come from regular boyz.

Size is the same thing as authority. Take "Painboss", the old HQ choice for doks, as an example of the oddboys having authority.

In the fluff, not all doks/painboys are of the nob class, but regular doks didn't have nob stats either; they have boy stats, same as a mek. The painboys available in the codex are all nobs, as they all have nob stats. The current painboys are the equivalent of the painbosses of the prior codex, although they are no longer an HQ choice.

Then why aren't they called Painbosses? And Painbosses only had authority over other Painboyz, not boyz in general, so they did not get access to such cool gear. I'll go check Waaargh! da Orks in a sec and check whether they had access to 'eavy armour back then. (Though it is largely irrelevant to the current codex)

Gwar, the rules do not say anything of sort.

Why a separate profile? Who knows. Maybe they wanted to make sure people knew they had nob stats. (As said, doks used to have boys stats unless they were the HQ choice.)

The fact of the matter remains, the profile is not a rule that states they lose their nob status. It's just a profile. It tells you the in-game stats.


(I don't know why they're not called painbosses, I didn't write the codex.)

Orkeosaurus wrote:The rules do not say anything of sort.

Why a separate profile? Who knows. Maybe they wanted to make sure people knew they had nob stats. (As said, doks used to have boys stats unless they were the HQ choice.)

The fact of the matter remains, the profile is not a rule that states they lose their nob status. It's just a profile. It tells you the in-game stats.

Oh wow, so the part of the rules that tell you the stats (which are rules) are suddenly not rules anymore? So As the Profile is not rules, can I now have my Space Marines as All 10's for their stats and a 2+ Armour save? After all, the Profile isn't rules.

Nowhere in the Rules nor the profile state that Painboys are nobs. In fact, the unit entry specifically shows they are not nobs.

Uriels_Flame wrote:So why has this reached 7 pages now?

Beats me, I gave the right answer under RAW six pages ago. But some people can't admit they are wrong and like to argue for the sake of argument.

orkcommander wrote:

Uriels_Flame wrote:So why has this reached 7 pages now?

Beats me, I gave the right answer under RAW six pages ago. But some people can't admit they are wrong and like to argue for the sake of argument.

No, I gave the right answer in the first reply. Your answer was wrong.

Orkeosaurus wrote:The fact of the matter remains, the profile is not a rule that states they lose their nob status. It's just a profile. It tells you the in-game stats.

They have an entirely separate codex entry that makes NO mention of them being Nobs, they have different equipment, different abilities, a statline of their very own, and yet the fact that the statline is that same as that for Nobz allows you to cling to your belief that they are Nobz...

Is it really that big of a deal? I don't see this as game breaking. I would have no problem if my opponent wanted to equip his mad dokk wif eavy armor.

G

Gwar! wrote:Oh wow, so the part of the rules that tell you the stats (which are rules) are suddenly not rules anymore? So As the Profile is not rules, can I now have my Space Marines as All 10's for their stats and a 2+ Armour save? After all, the Profile isn't rules.

Nowhere in the Rules nor the profile state that Painboys are nobs. In fact, the unit entry specifically shows they are not nobs.

They're rules, they're just not a rule that states they lose their nob status.

Where does it state in the rule entry that they are not nobs? Oh, trick question, it doesn't, but I'll bet you'll say the fact that it doesn't say they are nobs is the statement that they are not.

Gwar! wrote:

orkcommander wrote:

Uriels_Flame wrote:So why has this reached 7 pages now?

Beats me, I gave the right answer under RAW six pages ago. But some people can't admit they are wrong and like to argue for the sake of argument.

No, I gave the right answer in the first reply. Your answer was wrong.

RAW is on my side I'm right You are wrong.

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orkcommander wrote:RAW is on my side I'm right You are wrong.

Yes, let's ignore all the Debate here that has proved that I was right. RaW is on my side. A Painboy is not a Nob.

Its not what I think its Rules As Written.

orkcommander wrote:Its not what I think its Rules As Written.

Well, that is why you are wrong isn't it. Please, explain how a Painboy (who is not a Nob)is a Nob?

Orkeosaurus:

Oddboyz (nobs, meks, weirdboys, runtherds) cannot be nobs. Since they cannot be nobs, models with nob stats have different names. Meks become Big Meks when they are the same size as a nob, not Mek Nobs. Painboys used to become Painbosses. The fact that the model is an oddboy means that it cannot be a nob. While size = authority, there are different types of authority based on the lfie path the Ork was born to. Otherwise, why have different names for Big Meks and Painbosses. (Painbosses were removed as a name when regular painboys disappeared - there was no need for a distinction) So, a painboy who is the same size as a nob still isn't a nob. he's a painboy, and his size gives him different authority from a nob.


Orkycommander: Without any sort of argument other than 'RaW says I'm right', there is no reason for anyone to believe you. You might try 'RaW says I'm right. [quoted rule] [why quoted rule says you are right].

My pile of primed, yet unpainted orks is calling me, though. I shall return to carry on the flame of Painboy/Nob Apartheid eventually, though.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Oh wow, so the part of the rules that tell you the stats (which are rules) are suddenly not rules anymore? So As the Profile is not rules, can I now have my Space Marines as All 10's for their stats and a 2+ Armour save? After all, the Profile isn't rules.

Nowhere in the Rules nor the profile state that Painboys are nobs. In fact, the unit entry specifically shows they are not nobs.

They're rules, they're just not a rule that states they lose their nob status.

Where does it state in the rule entry that they are not nobs? Oh, trick question, it doesn't, but I'll bet you'll say the fact that it doesn't say they are nobs is the statement that they are not.

Well, nowhere in the rules does it say he is not a Tyranid, but I am pretty sure he isn't one. I know, I know, you'll come back with "but he was a Nob, why would he stop being one?" but you've been answered and decided not to listen. The complete lack of any reference stating they are a Nob means they are not. The completely separate codex entry. In the syntax of that sentence, it could be construed that he was a Nob and he still is one. In every other bit of evidence available, it is clear that the Nob is replaced with a Painboy and that the Painboy is a Painboy, always was a Painboy and that Nobz in Ork society do not turn into Painboyz and that there is no simultaneous advancement along the Nob and Painboy social, hierarchical and military roles.

For the record, though it does not necessarily affect this latest version of the rules, the original Painboyz in 'Ere We Go and Freebooterz did NOT have Painbosses. Painboyz had a statline somewhere between that of a Boss and a Drillboss, except they had an extra wound and were explicitly Oddboyz, not Nobz, even though they had 2 wounds and those Nobz only had 1 wound. Nobz could select power armour and Painboyz could NOT. Although I do not own the intervening codices, I suspect there will be a clear line of RaW and intent showing that Painboyz CANNOT have heavy armour from 'Ere We Go right down to this codex.

No, he is still a nob. A nob is an ork noble, and that class is given to all orks of a certain size.

He's part of a social class, and part of a specific trade. They have their own honorifics within that trade, and the nature of an oddboy means that their trade always takes preference to their class. It's not as though all orks have a universal system of naming conventions anyways. You could easily have someone called "Meknob", "Weirdboss", "Big Dok", or any other non-standardized name.


Also, Gwar, if you refuse to change your belief on a different profile meaning that it is no longer what it was at one time, I don't know what to say. We're at a crossroad, because that just sounds like an assumption to me.

orkcommander wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

orkcommander wrote:

Uriels_Flame wrote:So why has this reached 7 pages now?

Beats me, I gave the right answer under RAW six pages ago. But some people can't admit they are wrong and like to argue for the sake of argument.

No, I gave the right answer in the first reply. Your answer was wrong.

RAW is on my side I'm right You are wrong.

Richard bloody dawkins could be on your side, it wouldn't make you right. what makes you right is being able to argue your point, something which you are not doing


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Orkeosaurus wrote:No, he is still a nob. A nob is an ork noble, and that class is given to all orks of a certain size.

He's part of a social class, and part of a specific trade. They have their own honorifics within that trade, and the nature of an oddboy means that their trade always takes preference to their class. It's not as though all orks have a universal system of naming conventions anyways. You could easily have someone called "Meknob", "Weirdboss", "Big Dok", or any other non-standardized name.


Also, Gwar, if you refuse to change your belief on a different profile meaning that it is no longer what it was at one time, I don't know what to say. We're at a crossroad, because that just sounds like an assumption to me.

So your arguement falls down to fluff then?

Fifty, I'm referring to the 3rd edition ork codex, not 'Ere We Go. There were Painbosses, available as an HQ, and Doks, available as an add on to the Warboss' nob retinue and available to some of the Klans as squad leaders. Both had the ability to take Eavy Armor, if that matters.

The lack of stating that they retain their nobhood after the option is taken does not mean that they are not one. The lack of stating that they lose it proves that it is maintained.


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Combo, I'm not arguing based on fluff, I'm responding to others who have done so. If you had been reading the thread more carefully you would already know that.

Orkeosaurus wrote:No, he is still a nob. A nob is an ork noble, and that class is given to all orks of a certain size.

No! No no no! Even when Painboyz were explicitly NOT Nobz they had MORE wounds than them, and equal toughness. Where are you getting the idea that Painboyz are equal in size to Nobz? Because they have the same statline? That is a bad assumption. Painboyz were smaller than Nobz in the past and had "bigger" statlines.

He's part of a social class, and part of a specific trade. They have their own honorifics within that trade, and the nature of an oddboy means that their trade always takes preference to their class. It's not as though all orks have a universal system of naming conventions anyways. You could easily have someone called "Meknob", "Weirdboss", "Big Dok", or any other non-standardized name.

No, Oddboyz are separate to the rest of of Orky culture and even if you hold status within your Oddboy social scene, it does not translate across to Nob/Boy mainstream culture. That IS explicit in old fluff, which you are now attempting to refer to, it seems.

Also, Gwar, if you refuse to change your belief on a different profile meaning that it is no longer what it was at one time, I don't know what to say. We're at a crossroad, because that just sounds like an assumption to me.

I'm probably the only person here who will admit to changing their mind in this thread. It may not be obvious, but when I started typing my first thread I believed Painboyz COULD have heavy armour. Then I was undecided, now I say no.

You are as stubborn as Gwar! in refusing to alter your viewpoint, and there is far more evidence stacked against you. I suspect you just can't handle losing the argument.

orkcommander wrote:Its not what I think its Rules As Written.

How so. if something is upgraded it can lose its original function.

if I upgrade my Dell PC to an Alienware PC then I no longer have a Dell PC I have an Alienware PC.

If you upgrade your Nob to a Painboy you no longer have a Nob you have a painboy. This is true in many situations.

If you upgrade a scout to be a scout Sergent you dont have a scout you have a scout sergent. If you upgrade a flesh hound to be karanak you no longer have a flesh hound, you have karanak(who may fluff wise be a fleshhound but he has his own special rules)

Orkeosaurus wrote:The lack of stating that they retain their nobhood after the option is taken does not mean that they are not one. The lack of stating that they lose it proves that it is maintained.

It suggests it, but it certainly does not prove it, and that suggestion is trumped by other arguments.


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combo wrote:

orkcommander wrote:Its not what I think its Rules As Written.

How so. if something is upgraded it can lose its original function.

if I upgrade my Dell PC to an Alienware PC then I no longer have a Dell PC I have an Alienware PC.

If you upgrade your Nob to a Painboy you no longer have a Nob you have a painboy. This is true in many situations.

If you upgrade a scout to be a scout Sergent you dont have a scout you have a scout sergent. If you upgrade a flesh hound to be karanak you no longer have a flesh hound, you have karanak(who may fluff wise be a fleshhound but he has his own special rules)

The essence of the argument in this thread is that the phrase "upgrade to" has been left out in this instance.

Fifty wrote:No! No no no! Even when Painboyz were explicitly NOT Nobz they had MORE wounds than them, and equal toughness. Where are you getting the idea that Painboyz are equal in size to Nobz? Because they have the same statline? That is a bad assumption. Painboyz were smaller than Nobz in the past and had "bigger" statlines.

Your source is outdated, did you not just admit you don't the 3rd edition codex?

No, Oddboyz are separate to the rest of of Orky culture and even if you hold status within your Oddboy social scene, it does not translate across to Nob/Boy mainstream culture. That IS explicit in old fluff, which you are now attempting to refer to, it seems.

Boys don't necessarily listen to nobs that they aren't working under either. Oddboys don't need to command non-oddboys, they already have underlings.

Regardless, the fluff is not RAW.

You are as stubborn as Gwar! in refusing to alter your viewpoint, and there is far more evidence stacked against you. I suspect you just can't handle losing the argument.

Sticks and stones.

Fifty wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:The lack of stating that they retain their nobhood after the option is taken does not mean that they are not one. The lack of stating that they lose it proves that it is maintained.

It suggests it, but it certainly does not prove it, and that suggestion is trumped by other arguments.


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combo wrote:

orkcommander wrote:Its not what I think its Rules As Written.

How so. if something is upgraded it can lose its original function.

if I upgrade my Dell PC to an Alienware PC then I no longer have a Dell PC I have an Alienware PC.

If you upgrade your Nob to a Painboy you no longer have a Nob you have a painboy. This is true in many situations.

If you upgrade a scout to be a scout Sergent you dont have a scout you have a scout sergent. If you upgrade a flesh hound to be karanak you no longer have a flesh hound, you have karanak(who may fluff wise be a fleshhound but he has his own special rules)

The essence of the argument in this thread is that the phrase "upgrade to" has been left out in this instance.

well the arguement holds true all the same.

it doesnt matter if I upgrade, swap, melt down and rebuild or magically change my PC. it still loses being a Dell and becomes a Alienware.

Fifty wrote:It suggests it, but it certainly does not prove it, and that suggestion is trumped by other arguments.

It's proved due to the absence of proof to the contrary.

Ah the old "Nothing says I can't, nothing says you can! yeah but nothing says I can't" arguement that repeats onto infinity.

It's not infinity, it's only to page 8.

Are you expecting the codex to state Painboy (Not a Nob)?

or are you expecting it to say Painboy (Still counts as Nob)

Basically in this situation you need to decide whether GW rules are permissive or restrictive.

I cant believe this is still going on...

You are all arguing over the interpretation of Painboys being Nobs:

"One Nob may be a Painboy" pg 98.

I can completely understand both sides. However, the simple fact that Lootas on the very next page says:

"Up to three Lootas may be upgraded to Meks (for no cost)" Pg99

It then lists two different wargears lists for both lootas and meks.

If the Painboys were to Nobs as Meks were to Lootas (seperate units with different war gear and abilities), there should be absolutely no difference between the wording and wargear layouts. Infact, if anything, it should say "1-3 lootas may be meks" because the 'upgrade' is free, whereas Nobs should have to "upgrade to a Painboy" because you have to pay points to upgrade a Nob.

Mek's and Loota's are clearly defined as two separate units with separate wargear. Nobs and Painboys, ontop of the wording which already suggests "A Nob may be a painboy" (aka a nob may simply be a Doctor), have the exact same profile with the exact same wargear. It says that the nob that is a painboy trades in his slugga and choppa, and only those two items. Since you people are saying they cannot have upgraded wargear, then why would it simply not have a painboy category with Dok's Tools and Syringe seperately? Why do Lootas not "trade in their deff guns for mek's tools" like Nobs trade in S&Cs for dok's tools (answer: Because unlike Nobs to PBs, becoming a mek makes them a seperate unit entirely, with completely different wargear and upgrades)

Ontop of all these now very obvious intentions, there are no upgrades for Painboys like there are meks, meaning that Painboys cannot be upgraded to ride bikes. If this is the case, why do we see Painboy Bikers all the time? The rule "The entire mob may be Nob bikers for X points" clearly states "The entire mob" part because it is impossible to mix and match units with bikes and stikkbombs. Either they all have it, or none of them do. Its not a coincidence that the only two upgrades you HAVE to take for the entire mob are the only two that cannot be mixed and matched between models in order to work with the 40k rulebook. Different armoured Nobs taking wounds can be allocated. How would you work out a charge where only half the unit has grenades?

So why do we have painboy bikers? Because theyre still Nobs! Only Nob Bikers may have bikes, no where does it mention Painboys!

So while I agree looking at the single sentence "A Nob may be a painboy" could go either way, everything else, including the Loota entry, Nobs Wargear section, and Nob Bikers upgrade suggest that a painboy is still a Nob, and NOT a separate unit with completely different wargear, ala Lootas!

Fifty wrote: Although I do not own the intervening codices, I suspect there will be a clear line of RaW and intent showing that Painboyz CANNOT have heavy armour from 'Ere We Go right down to this codex.

The 2nd edition Ork Codex allowed Painboyz to select 'Eavy and Mega Armour.
The 3rd edition Ork Codex allowed Painbosses and Mad Doks (renamed Painboyz, in the same way that Runtherds became Slavers) to select 'Eavy and Mega Armour.

So no, history reveals no such trend

combo wrote:

orkcommander wrote:Its not what I think its Rules As Written.

How so. if something is upgraded it can lose its original function.

if I upgrade my Dell PC to an Alienware PC then I no longer have a Dell PC I have an Alienware PC.

If you upgrade your Nob to a Painboy you no longer have a Nob you have a painboy. This is true in many situations.

If you upgrade a scout to be a scout Sergent you dont have a scout you have a scout sergent. If you upgrade a flesh hound to be karanak you no longer have a flesh hound, you have karanak(who may fluff wise be a fleshhound but he has his own special rules)

If I upgrade Windows xp with service pack 3 it is still Windows xp.

I stated why he has eavy armor early on in this thread. I don't feel the need to repeat my self. especially to someone that thinks the official FAQ from the company that makes the game are just house rules and don't mean anything. I said it once and it's still there for anyone to read.

combo wrote:

How so. if something is upgraded it can lose its original function.

if I upgrade my Dell PC to an Alienware PC then I no longer have a Dell PC I have an Alienware PC.

If you upgrade your Nob to a Painboy you no longer have a Nob you have a painboy. This is true in many situations.

If you upgrade a scout to be a scout Sergent you dont have a scout you have a scout sergent. If you upgrade a flesh hound to be karanak you no longer have a flesh hound, you have karanak(who may fluff wise be a fleshhound but he has his own special rules)

It says nothing about upgrading. It says a Nob may be a Painboy.

The analogy could as easily (and much more accurately be) I have 5 computers (Nobs). 4 are the standard dell PCs (Regular Nobs), but one may be an alienware PC (Nob Painboy) with special sound equipment. Theyre still all computers (Nobs). They still have all my graphics cards upgrades (armour upgrades) I gave them. The only difference is I traded in my standard sound equipment (slugga and choppa) for super sound equipment (Doks Tools). All my other upgrades are still there.

It says a Nob may be a painboy, not replaced by a painboy. The nob in question wants to better himself, goes to school and gets his degree That degree gives him the ability to practice medicine. He's still a nob but he now has the title of painboy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now if a regular boy goes to school and gets his degree to become a painboy that's just fine for him. He just gets stuck with the flash gitz.

Nobz can be painboys but all painboys aren't nobz.

The mystery of the universe is solved.

Seeing as all painboys aren't nobz, they can't take heavy armor. Thank you for finally agreeing with us.

MasticatorDeelux wrote:Seeing as all painboys aren't nobz, they can't take heavy armor. Thank you for finally agreeing with us.

Yes they can but only the ones that started off as nobz in the first place. Like the one your talking about.

The painboy has eavy armor RAW. You need a flow chart.

The feth? A flow chart? What the feth is this thread, a meeting of the minds in a Dunder Mifflin office meeting?

Seriously, flow charts?

Now that's A flow chart.

Since we are bringing in whacky arguments that have nothing to do with the fact that it clearly states that they can't have it, how about the model itself? The painboy model is clearly not as big as a Nob, it is Boyz sized. Does this big Nob go to Greenskin U., get his PHD and shrink 3 feet? Is that why they are crazy, because they can't dunk anymore?

Now THAT, my friends, is a flowchart.

6Ork Boyz later my friend mentioned the word 'dakka' so I'm back to see what's happened.

@Night Lords: Please don't try to bring up bikes again. We've been over that ad nauseum, and everyone but you who said that painboys can't ride bikes stopped mentioning it, which can be taken as a sign that everyone but you gets it. Sorry if that sounded mean.

@Everyone else: We're bogged down at a fundamental juncture. By which I mean a disagreement over whether a model can be a nob and a painboy at the same time.

Yes arguments:
-The unit entry says 'a nob may be a painboy' which means that the painboy is also a nob.
- It is unless you prove it isn't.
- (RaI/Fluff) all orks of the same size are nobz

No arguments:
- Each model has it's own name and statline.
- Having a different name and statline makes them different unless proven the same.
- Both models occur as a part of other units.
- Nob is the name of a specific model, not the name of a unit type.
- (RaI) Painboys in other units lose 'eavy armour.
- (fluff) Oddboyz cannot be Nobz because they are Oddboys, regardless of size.

Perhaps never the twain shall meet.

My prognosis: Either roll off during your games (yuck), simply don't bother paying 5 points and allocate wounds better, or go for broke and make sure all of your painboyz have Waaagh banners.

That's enough running around in circles. I know my post count is low, but I don't need too many more posts that boil down to.

"He's a nob, because he's a nob unless you prove he isn't"
"He's not a nob, he's a painboy. You prove he's a nob"
"You prove he isn't"
"You prove he is"
"I asked you first"
"well I asked you second."
"well you just can't prove it because he's a nob"
"well you just won't try to prove it because it isn't"
"but he IS a nob"
"but he ISN'T a nob"

So I am going to go back to painting, knowing that this is an issue which will probably never alter any games in which I'm playing, and simply refuse to take an option that I feel is unfluffy and illegal, even though there are people who feel that it is, in fact legal. I would, however, like to be PM'd the answer from the person who emailed GW about this, and I will PM them to find out privately.

also, +1 post.

I think the best arguments by both sides have already been put forth early in the thread.

No one has added much from a strictly rules-based standpoint since Gwar.

Orkestra wrote:@Night Lords: Please don't try to bring up bikes again. We've been over that ad nauseum, and everyone but you who said that painboys can't ride bikes stopped mentioning it, which can be taken as a sign that everyone but you gets it. Sorry if that sounded mean.

Painboys can be on bikes, because theyre nobs, but they also have heavy armour. They either have Bikes and heavy armour, or they have neither. My point is that if youre going to argue painboys are seperate units for nobs, they cant take a nob upgrade.

Night Lords wrote:Painboys can be on bikes, because theyre nobs, but they also have heavy armour. They either have Bikes and heavy armour, or they have neither. My point is that if youre going to argue painboys are seperate units for nobs, they cant take a nob upgrade.

Night Lords +1

Bikes are an upgrade that applies to the whole unit. It doesn't state specific models, names, statlines, anything. Unit, which is defined as a group of models as per BRB. Now the upgrade for armor applies to Nobs. Painboyz do not have the Nob stat-line, they have their own entry, wargear and wargear options. Now, if a Painboy gets a bike, he then has a 4+ save, because the Bike says so. However, a Painboy isn't a Nob, so he can't get actual 'Eavy Armor. There is proof of this else where in the codex (Flash Gitz). That is all the evidence that you can be offered. I'm going to unsubscribe this thread now.

If you want to argue ridiculous RAW like that, Ill just do it like this.

I have a Nob with standard gear:

Slugga
Choppa

Hmm, I want to buy a bosspole and Eavy armour for him.

Now my Nob Wargear is:

Slugga
Choppa
Bosspole
Eavy Armour

ok, Im going to have a Nob become a painboy. Hmm, theres no "Painboy" option like Mek's do with Lootas. I guess they share the same war gear. What does it tell me to do?

"A painboy replaces Slugga and Choppa with Dok's tools and 'urty syringe" Hmm. Not ALL gear, ONLY the S&C.

Now my wargear looks like:

Dok's Tools
Urty Syringe
Bosspole
Eavy Armour

There we go, I now have a Painboy with Eavy armour. There is no painboy gear layout, so I use a Nob's. Unless someone can quote the rulebook where i cant upgrade a unit in any order I want, there is no rule stating that my already purchased war gear is magically lost in the Ork codex (and again, there is NO Painboy wargear section throughout the entire codex).

Lets try the same thing with my Chaos Lord, because I see there are melta bombs for non terminator lords.

Chaos Lord has PA, CCW, BP, FG, KG. I buy melta bombs. Now I upgrade to Terminator Armour - Oh look, it says replace ALL wargear with TLB, TA, and a PW. No melta bombs for me.

The Chaos Codex prevents me from doing this as RAW, the Ork codex does not. It only tells me to replace S&C.

My bologna has a first name; it's OSCAR.

My bologna has a second name; it's MEYER.

Can someone please keep telling me why this debate is still moving?

Oh, I KNOW! Because GW is going to get on this debate and say: Just keep buying the models and SHUT UP (and increase my stocks, thanks!)

Thanks to this thread I'm now considering purchasing ALL Codexes (is that the correct plural word?), just so I can see what people are talking about... no more AB reliance for me...

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Fifty wrote:It suggests it, but it certainly does not prove it, and that suggestion is trumped by other arguments.

It's proved due to the absence of proof to the contrary.

The absence of proof does not prove the opposite! (Are you a Creationist, by any chance?)

*head explodes*

*leaves thread*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

djphranq wrote:Thanks to this thread I'm now considering purchasing ALL Codexes (is that the correct plural word?), just so I can see what people are talking about... no more AB reliance for me...

Codices.

someone close this dumb thread already

orkcommander wrote:It says a Nob may be a painboy, not replaced by a painboy. The nob in question wants to better himself, goes to school and gets his degree That degree gives him the ability to practice medicine. He's still a nob but he now has the title of painboy.

I Lol'd myself

K guys , i know there are 2 sides to this question , so i must ask this.

How many Versions of Pain Boys can you guys agree to?

Pain boy is a pain boy is a pain boy . Just 1 version.

Or do you say there are more than 1 type of pain boys?

The non-existent 'Nob Painboy' variety.

I think it's pretty grey.

Against:
Painboy isn't a Nob.
Flash Gitz painboyz lose their armor.

Pro:
For a boyz mob, GW has made it clear that you can upgrade a model to a nob, buy him a powerklaw, and then have the rest of the unit swap slugga & choppa for shootas. And making the statement that upgrades can happen in any order.

So, you may want to check with Tourney Organizers before bringing one to a tourney, although compared to other rules issues, this is pretty minor. Personally, I wouldn't upgrade my Painboy with Nobz gear, but if someone only bought 'eavy armor for the Painboy (as opposed to Waaagh Banners and Bosspoles, for example), I wouldn't have a stroke about it either.

I'm posting bologna until this thread is closed.

It would still seem odd to me to have an entire Nobz mob kitted out in 'eavy armour yet have the painboy loose his becuase he's a painboy.
I can understand the inability to take Pks or Waaagh banners and such,but loosing an armour upgrade just doesn't make alot of sense to me.

FITZZ wrote: It would still seem odd to me to have an entire Nobz mob kitted out in 'eavy armour yet have the painboy loose his becuase he's a painboy.
I can understand the inability to take Pks or Waaagh banners and such,but loosing an armour upgrade just doesn't make alot of sense to me.

Sorry, but it is all or nothing. If you let him take armour that is 2 steps better, I want my apothecaries to have a 1+ Armour save.

Doesnt this explain something?

Gwar! wrote:

FITZZ wrote: It would still seem odd to me to have an entire Nobz mob kitted out in 'eavy armour yet have the painboy loose his becuase he's a painboy.
I can understand the inability to take Pks or Waaagh banners and such,but loosing an armour upgrade just doesn't make alot of sense to me.

Sorry, but it is all or nothing. If you let him take armour that is 2 steps better, I want my apothecaries to have a 1+ Armour save.

I'm not arguing for or against one side or the other ,I'm simply saying that it makes little sense that one member of a mob would be denied armour due to his position as a painboy.

Why does it make little sense, there alot of logical reasons why a painboy would not wear armour, say he's carrying to many assorted syringes and other medical gubbins.

combo wrote: Why does it make little sense, there alot of logical reasons why a painboy would not wear armour, say he's carrying to many assorted syringes and other medical gubbins.

It makes little sense in the same context that a "real world" military medic doesn't remove his body armour just because he's carring med equipment.
Sure a painboy is loaded down with medical gubbins & such,but I still don't see how this would hinder the wearing of armour.

FITZZ wrote: It makes little sense in the same context that a "real world"

I'll stop you right there.

Gwar! wrote:

FITZZ wrote: It makes little sense in the same context that a "real world"

I'll stop you right there.

I understand were your coming from in that statement Gwar,no,it's not the "real world",I was simply explaining why it didn't make sense to me.
Again,I'm not arguing "rules",just logic.

Orkeosaurus wrote:You don't look at a person (which is called a person) and a firefighter (which is called a firefighter) and say that they are the same thing. However, you do say that a firefighter is a person, even though most people are not firefighters.

Giving a person a helmet, asbestos coat, boots, an axe, and then tossing them into a structure fire does not make him a firefighter.

Brother Ramses wrote:Giving a person a helmet, asbestos coat, boots, an axe, and then tossing them into a structure fire does not make him a firefighter.

UH OH!! Now you've really opened up the door for all the anal retents to debate about what does, and does not constitute a firefighter.

You just added 5 pages to this thread!!

GG

As for the bike arguement:

A command squad apothecary keeps the grenades that were given to him as a UNIT upgrade despite becoming an apothecary.

Same applies to the Painboy. The UNIT is given bikes so the Painboy keeps the bike.

As has been mentioned ad nauseam, a Painboy is not a Nob. He specifically has a different name, a different entry, and a different statline hence a completely different model it his own right.


The rule is not,

"A Nob may be a Painboy Nob."

or,

"A Nob may be a Painboy and a Nob."

or,

"A Nob may be a Painboy and still be a Nob."

The rule states,

"A Nob may be a Painboy."

At that point you do not look at the Nob profile you specifically look at the Painboy profile.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

And yet, after 10 pages of the same few people making up silly assumptions, no one has answered why, as the RAW states and brought up on page 1, someone cannot upgrade a Nob, then turn him into a painboy, while only losing his S&C (and saying "because he cant" is not good enough, rules please). Nor has anyone explained why Lootas and Meks have completely different wargear layouts, while Nobs and (Nob) Painboys share the same one (again, the answer here is that the Painboy is still a Nob).

So good day until someone can explain the above

Night Lords wrote:And yet, after 10 pages of the same few people making up silly assumptions, no one has answered why, as the RAW states and brought up on page 1, someone cannot upgrade a Nob, then turn him into a painboy, while only losing his S&C (and saying "because he cant" is not good enough, rules please). Nor has anyone explained why Lootas and Meks have completely different wargear layouts, while Nobs and (Nob) Painboys share the same one (again, the answer here is that the Painboy is still a Nob).

So good day until someone can explain the above

This pretty much sums up my thoughts throughout my failed attempt to read through this thread (skipped here after it became obvious that pages 6-9 were nothing but flame-fests [EDIT: And perhaps a touch of post-count farming]).

I would really like to see a respected party (*cough cough yakface cough*) that hasn't already gotten their ego behind the argument explain their views on the subject in a new thread after locking this one (just to get rid of so many of the senseless trolling and "helpful pictures").

Barring that, I'm not prepared to believe either side of this argument until I see a complete, valid argument. No assumptions, no "it just works this way", no "army builder lets me", no "there isn't a model with heavy armor", nothing but cited references. Think mathematical proof here.

A Painboy is not a Nob! Different profiles etc.

Night Lords wrote:And yet, after 10 pages of the same few people making up silly assumptions, no one has answered why, as the RAW states and brought up on page 1, someone cannot upgrade a Nob, then turn him into a painboy, while only losing his S&C (and saying "because he cant" is not good enough, rules please). Nor has anyone explained why Lootas and Meks have completely different wargear layouts, while Nobs and (Nob) Painboys share the same one (again, the answer here is that the Painboy is still a Nob).

So good day until someone can explain the above

Answer these two very simple questions:

1. If you have a Nob and a Painboy and they each take a wound, what profile do you use for the Painboy to determine his toughness, wound, and save?
2. Why?

Gwar! wrote:A Painboy is not a Nob! Different profiles etc.

"Etc." does not include wargear, which is what is being debated. If you could provide a real reason quoting rules why I can not upgrade them in that order, that would be great, thanks.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Answer these two very simple questions:

1. If you have a Nob and a Painboy and they each take a wound, what profile do you use for the Painboy to determine his toughness, wound, and save?
2. Why?

You have not answered the questions. Using RAW, if you would kindly please tell me why I cannot do that, it would actually further the debate. Thanks.

Night Lords wrote:

Gwar! wrote:A Painboy is not a Nob! Different profiles etc.

"Etc." does not include wargear, which is what is being debated. If you could provide a real reason quoting rules why I can not upgrade them in that order, that would be great, thanks.

Lol. If only a Nob can buy the wargear, why can a Painboy?

Gwar! wrote:

Night Lords wrote:

Gwar! wrote:A Painboy is not a Nob! Different profiles etc.

"Etc." does not include wargear, which is what is being debated. If you could provide a real reason quoting rules why I can not upgrade them in that order, that would be great, thanks.

Lol. If only a Nob can buy the wargear, why can a Painboy?

Please answer the question described above as to why I cannot purchase options in order like that if you want me to answer your questions. You've been avoiding it since page 1 (where you simply said "fine, play your homebrew game" with no reason), as I, along with others, am interested as to how this is breaking a rule.

Thanks.

Night Lords wrote:And yet, after 10 pages of the same few people making up silly assumptions, no one has answered why, as the RAW states and brought up on page 1, someone cannot upgrade a Nob, then turn him into a painboy, while only losing his S&C (and saying "because he cant" is not good enough, rules please). Nor has anyone explained why Lootas and Meks have completely different wargear layouts, while Nobs and (Nob) Painboys share the same one (again, the answer here is that the Painboy is still a Nob).

So good day until someone can explain the above

To answer your questions:

1. There is no entry in the ork codex for a "Painboy Nob" or "Nob Painboy". There is only a specific entry for a Painboy whose profile is separate completely from a Nob profile. That is the RAW as plain and simple as I can explain it to you. If the entry for a "Nob Painboy" or "Painboy Nob" was in the Ork codex, it would be RAW. It isn't so it does not exist.

2. The lack of a different wargear layout compared to another unit entry has zero bearing on the blatant fact that within the Ork codex there is not a specific entry of either a "Nob Painboy" or a Painboy Nob". There is only an entry for a Painboy that is separate and exclusive from the Nob entry.

Go ahead and answer mine now.

Brother Ramses wrote:

To answer your questions:

1. There is no entry in the ork codex for a "Painboy Nob" or "Nob Painboy". There is only a specific entry for a Painboy whose profile is separate completely from a Nob profile. That is the RAW as plain and simple as I can explain it to you. If the entry for a "Nob Painboy" or "Painboy Nob" was in the Ork codex, it would be RAW. It isn't so it does not exist.

2. The lack of a different wargear layout compared to another unit entry has zero bearing on the blatant fact that within the Ork codex there is not a specific entry of either a "Nob Painboy" or a Painboy Nob". There is only an entry for a Painboy that is separate and exclusive from the Nob entry.

Go ahead and answer mine now.

You have failed to explain, using either the 40k rulebooks or the Ork Codex, why RAW wise I cannot upgrade them in that order. Other units, such as Chaos Lords outlined above, prevent me from doing this when following the written rules. Your answer had nothing to do with my question.

And as for the Lootas, you seem to have no answer.

Thanks for trying I guess...