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Post by: Lagduf
Can we implement a rule that persons posting links to their auctions (whether on Ebay, Amazon, etc) put something to the effect of "For Auction/FA/Ebay/Amazon", etc in the title of their thread? Just something so it is apparent that the items for sale are actually for auction.
It's really annoying to click on a thread and just be duped in to looking a thread that is essentially nothing more than an advertisement for someone's auction.
In a way I find it misleading when users don't state that it's an auction.
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Post by: Jin
To be fair, people on the Swap Shop should also be putting a [USA] or whatever tag on their titles, but don't.
It's annoying that people don't mention up front that they're just linking to an auction, but as it is right now, the Swap Shop isn't a huge part of Dakka and unless there's a mod actively telling people to change their thread titles and people get in the habit of it, it's not likely to happen.
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Post by: GoFenris
Jin wrote:To be fair, people on the Swap Shop should also be putting a [USA] or whatever tag on their titles, but don't.
It's annoying that people don't mention up front that they're just linking to an auction, but as it is right now, the Swap Shop isn't a huge part of Dakka and unless there's a mod actively telling people to change their thread titles and people get in the habit of it, it's not likely to happen.
I would be honored to serve DakkaDakka in this capacity. I could be the SwapMod. Seriously, I would.
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Post by: Jin
Hell, I would too, to be honest. Though to be honest, it'd partially be to rule the Swap Shop with an iron fist! Hurr!
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Post by: Lagduf
Jin wrote:To be fair, people on the Swap Shop should also be putting a [USA] or whatever tag on their titles, but don't.
It's annoying that people don't mention up front that they're just linking to an auction, but as it is right now, the Swap Shop isn't a huge part of Dakka and unless there's a mod actively telling people to change their thread titles and people get in the habit of it, it's not likely to happen.
They should be doing that too then, if it's a rule.
On the other forum I visit you're required to accurately list your location in your profile (and have it visible) if you participate in the trading/selling forums.
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Post by: Jin
Thing with the Dakka Swap Shop is that Yakface has repeatedly stated that the swap shop here is very much Caveat Emptor, and that Dakka holds no liability for bad deals on this site.
There do seem to be some strides being made to improve the Swap Shop here. The inclusion of the Reputable Traders list is one such feature. Certain rules are being put up to help facilitate things (such as the aforementioned country tags). However, Dakka is predominantly a website centered on the gaming/modelling aspect of the hobby and as such there isn't as much focus on the trading. To paraphrase posts that Yakface has made in the past, "There are other established sites dedicated to trading/selling for the real serious traders".
That being said, I'd like to repeat again that there're no Mods actively patrolling the Swap Shop (that I know of), and considering how much traffic that section of the forum is starting to get, they'd need a dedicated Moderator to look after that properly(I imagine the Mods are busy enough with the rest of the growing Dakka).
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Post by: Lagduf
Jin wrote:Thing with the Dakka Swap Shop is that Yakface has repeatedly stated that the swap shop here is very much Caveat Emptor, and that Dakka holds no liability for bad deals on this site.
There do seem to be some strides being made to improve the Swap Shop here. The inclusion of the Reputable Traders list is one such feature. Certain rules are being put up to help facilitate things (such as the aforementioned country tags). However, Dakka is predominantly a website centered on the gaming/modelling aspect of the hobby and as such there isn't as much focus on the trading. To paraphrase posts that Yakface has made in the past, "There are other established sites dedicated to trading/selling for the real serious traders".
That being said, I'd like to repeat again that there're no Mods actively patrolling the Swap Shop (that I know of), and considering how much traffic that section of the forum is starting to get, they'd need a dedicated Moderator to look after that properly(I imagine the Mods are busy enough with the rest of the growing Dakka).
Dakka holding no liability for the transactions is pretty much a given thing, I don't think anyone is expecting the moderation and administrators to to step in when a deal goes bad.
That doesn't mean we as a community can't come up with a set of rules and enforce them.
Self policing is the key, though it'd be nice if we had a few basic guidelines.
Here, check out these rules over at my main forum, Neo-Geo.com
http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2522272&postcount=1
These are pretty extensive...and uh, were written by a lawyer (can you tell) but there are some good ideas floating within.
Granted we do have some additional requirements to sell, such as having 100 posts or a month of time as a member.
We also have four selling forums, and many members dealing with some costly items, but at the core our market is maintained by a solid set of guidelines and self policing by the community, who actively work together to solve problems, and identify scammers and timewasters. We even have a complete feedback forum, and a trading rating system.
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Post by: Jin
Lagduf wrote:
That doesn't mean we as a community can't come up with a set of rules and enforce them.
Self policing is the key, though it'd be nice if we had a few basic guidelines.
Here, check out these rules over at my main forum, Neo-Geo.com
http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2522272&postcount=1
...
We also have four selling forums, and many members dealing with some costly items, but at the core our market is maintained by a solid set of guidelines and self policing by the community, who actively work together to solve problems, and identify scammers and timewasters. We even have a complete feedback forum, and a trading rating system.
Well, it certainly seems like that forum has a more developed trading system.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on pretty much all of your points.
My only point is this: implementing new guidelines and such will require some sort of authority figure to come up with/compile said guidelines for members to follow and then to enforce them early on. Let's face it, until posting guidelines become standard practice in the forum, it's easier to have one "authority" privately reminding people of the posting rules than having new users/new traders suddenly getting a handful of messages from various people to follow the posting guidelines or having the trade threads being filled up with similar comments. Not saying it can't be done by the community, but it's a slightly more efficient process with a Moderator taking care of this, not to mention that sometimes it's easier to get some people to follow rules when an "authority figure" asks/tells them to do so.
As it is, there are some ad-hoc guidelines in place. It's just a matter of diverting some moderating muscle to get things changing a bit faster.
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Post by: Lagduf
Alright, so why don't we start something. More developed rules, ask for enforcement on posts in the the swap shop.
I know the moderation actively patrols the other threads, why not drop in on the Swap Shop once in awhile.
Any moderators care to throw out an opinion on this topic?
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Post by: Lagduf
legoburner wrote:We are talking about it in the super secret mod forum.
I liked the days when a BBS would have a visible mod subforum, but it was password protected. These days you can just set certain subforums to be only visible to certain members.
Now i'll never know if there actually is a super secret mod forum or not!
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Post by: legoburner
Excuse my random deleting of my own posts in this thread, just testing a few bits of code out in relation to this topic.
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Post by: Lagduf
legoburner wrote:Excuse my random deleting of my own posts in this thread, just testing a few bits of code out in relation to this topic.
You sneaky moderator!
It's ok...I quoted you.
Some evidence remains.
Not, of course, that you don't have the power to edit my post or anything...
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Post by: legoburner
ok, the new plan is to set up a few members as moderators in the swap shop and swap shop alone. This will allow them to edit titles and keep things flowing well without us having to allocate time from our main moderators to do the same things.
We've already invited the users we want to become moderators in that forum, but if anyone else is interested in case any of them decline then feel free to post here. It will be quite a thankless task so the best people are those who just want to see the swap shop running smoothly instead of those who want to reshape it.
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Post by: GoFenris
The new guidelines are up! The only real new "rule" is pertaining to thread titles.
Also we have two new features in the Swap Shop:
Painting Service List
and
Swap Shop "Stall" List
Check 'em out.
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Post by: legoburner
Very nice work guys!
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Post by: Jin
Is it worth having a Swap Shop Suggestions thread in the Swap Shop itself? Or should we just keep things running in here?
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Post by: GoFenris
I like it here.
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Post by: Jin
W00t. The Painting Service List is taking off! Good thinking Ketara/GoFenris (I forget which one of you originally thought it up)!
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Post by: GoFenris
Must have been Ketara. He is the 'LIST' guru! 
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LunaHound wrote:I have a question , i live in Canada so i have to put it in there, But wont that effect people clickking ? what if they assume i only want to trade inside canada?
they can see my flag on my avatar right?
Yes it could affect people clicking and here's why...
It was discussed that some DakkaDakka users are not interested in paying for international shipping (or simply trading internationally at all) while others are. To keep the titles as simple as possible for browsing reasons, the Country of Origin would be placed in the title and then it would be up to the person interested to enter the thread. This is the intent of the new 'Title' system, to keep it simple and easy to browse. It comes down to; if the potential trader is interested in having something shipped world-wide, not the other way around.
With that said, if we (i.e. any DakkaDakka user) generate more of an interest to add both the location of item and where the trader is willing to ship, within the title it will certainly be further discussed on this thread.
Also, in the new guidelines regarding suggestions for posts, the first line is where the seller/trader is willing to ship.
For now, however, we want to keep it as simple as possible.
I hope this answers your questions.
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Post by: RiTides
Hi,
GoFenris and Jin, I think you guys are doing a great job implementing changes to the SwapShop! It's always hard to change a "culture" that's in place already, but you're doing it swiftly and professionally
That said, do you think we could have a few less stickies? There's 7 of them right now... imho the "tips" page is a little long and unwieldy for a new user to benefit from, and there are two separate "stall" stickies.
Thanks for reading
Steve / RTN
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Post by: GoFenris
Yes! I agree. Actually two of those are temporary.
I will endeavor to combine my Swap Shop Stall stickies later today. As for the rest I will definitely seek advice from the other two Swap Mods regarding what to do as they are the smart ones  .
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Post by: Jin
Heh, I was thinking the same thing about the stickies.
Maybe we can consolidate the Tips to the Guidelines/Rules Thread?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, don't forget Ketara! He's quieter than me and GoFenris, but he's actually come up with a lot of the ideas!
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Post by: GoFenris
Jin wrote:Heh, I was thinking the same thing about the stickies.
Maybe we can consolidate the Tips to the Guidelines/Rules Thread?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, don't forget Ketara! He's quieter than me and GoFenris, but he's actually come up with a lot of the ideas!
Great idea! I'll do that now. Also, I'm going to let the "Looking for your own Stall" thread drift on down to regular posts and in a day or so it will fade off into obscurity but will always be available to link from the "Swap Stall List". I'll also lock it to stop anyone from pushing it back up.
Yes, this is also very true of Ketara! He's the silent partner that makes us look good. (or at least competent )
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sticky Thread is cleaned up.
Be advised, the...
Tips on Trading / Buying / Selling ( swap shop~)
...thread can be accessed from the...
Dakka Swap Shop - Rules for Posting
...on the top of the forum at any time.
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Post by: RiTides
Awesome
Thanks guys!!!
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Post by: Jin
I'm beginning to think that we SHOULD have a dedicated Suggestions/Discussion Thread in Swap Shop, considering how many people are finally chiming in with opinions in ahtba's thread in Dakka Discussions.
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Post by: Jin
This post is an accumulation of comments/criticisms we've received about the current Swap Shop Guidelines (I'll apologize in advance for the long post):
Hulksmash wrote:I'm not a huge fan of the new format either. It makes nothing stand out and doesn't seem to make a huge difference on how things are listed. meh...
I do like them consolidating the painting threads though.
athba wrote:My feedback is that i would like to browse offers, be able to see worldwide trade offers despite the country of seller - if i see Orks for sale [USA] i will assume seller is not interested in WW sale - what i really hate is someone changing my post - how about a nice, friendly pm asking me to revise it????
H.B.M.C. wrote:My biggest concern is actually the order of the H and W. Wouldn't it make more sense to put W first? If people are offering money for things that means that a lot of them will start with [H]$$$, which doesn't tell you anything.
I 'spose there's arguments for both sides though.
And what about questions? I got my Ltd. Ed. Skulz AdMech unit by putting up a "Does anyone have this?" thread, and got lucky that one very generous person did have what I wanted. Under the new formatting, would I have to put:
[H]$$$, [W]AdMech Skulz Unit, OZ
That'll just get lost with all the others?
Mattlov wrote:I'm fine with it. It is fast to look through and see what is going on.
I still despise the "[H] Stuff [W] Other Stuff" titles though. Thanks for the info, buddy.
I'll copy over some of the responses that Ketara and I posted to some of these responses detailing some of our decisions for the Guidelines that were implemented last month in a bit.
Honestly, we're trying to make things better and create a solution that most everyone (let's face it, you can't please everyone) can be satisfied with, so let us know how you think we could improve things.
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Post by: Arctik_Firangi
What I'm about to say could be perceived as inflammatory, and I don't mean to come across that way. The whole new swap thread idea has given me a sick feeling since it was introduced, and it's hard to put my finger on it.
The main thing I'd like to hear is precisely what was wrong with the previous format. I don't understand why anyone has to mod what used to be an open trading board. I no longer have any interest in posting the usual 'wanted' threads I used to put up.
The new format seems to be most advantageous to people trying to pawn off their stuff, as opposed to people looking up regular, casual trades for desired bits and rare minis. If Dakka is so certainly not 'the place to trade', then why the restictions? If people want to sell piles/lists of unwanted junk, why don't they go to a dedicated forum? What is more, I've done almost exclusively international trades on Dakka... I pay my own shipping and in the case of an outright trade, I've never had anyone complain about paying their own.
I could add plenty of Dakka member's names to the 'reputable traders list', but as soon as that thread lifted its ugly head I knew it wouldn't end well. I can scarcely believe I was this right.
The 'stall' thread is a good idea for a sticky, although I can already taste the spam. I'll be awaiting a good response.
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Post by: Jin
Hey Arctik, thanks for the feedback - completely valid concerns, wouldn't consider it inflammatory.
Let me copy over some of the stuff Ketara and I posted on the other thread here first, and then I'll respond (and hopefully so can Ketara and GoFenris) more directly to your concerns.
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Post by: Jin
Some explanations from the Swap Mods:
Ketara wrote:The original reason for the new format was just to make it easier to scan so people could quickly find what they were interested in.
The whole H: orks W: orks thing has been there from the beginning. Adding the country of origin in the title was a little enforced rule added later on by frazzled(?). Adding whether it was Ebay or not was one of the new updates included after some members complained about the prolifity of Ebay auctions, and what a waste of time they were.
Being rules nazis is not our intent, but we are actually just upholding the rules the swap shop has had for some time now. It's just that the mod team never had the time to moderate that sub-forum effectively, hence, the swapmods came into existence.
If you have any positive suggestions, please, contribute them. Rules are subject to change if there is enough public feedback for them. There's a Swap shop suggestions thread in the Nuts and Bolts sub-forum for any ideas you may have.
...
The country of origin being included did actually come up in the discussion between me and my compatriots, with some advocating for, and others against. It was initially going to be the first part of the post as was originally the case when the rule was introduced, however, it was put at the end of the post as a compromise to both sides.
The whole PM thing did come up as well, but at the end of the day, PMing EVERY person who posted an incorrect title would be vastly time-consuming, and not only that, the time difference between the PM being sent and the user next logging in to change it could result in it not being changed for 48 hours. The general consensus was that the rules were the rules, and that if an error was made, it should be swiftly and efficently corrected.
...
There was nothing personal in the editing of your title, it was just making it conform to the new format.
In this case, your kind of title is the exception, rather than the rule. Very few people name a straight flat out price for the goods they have, as such, that never arose when the discussion on titles was ongoing.
Everyone is interested in keeping the Swapshop running smoothly and enjoyably, us Swapmods probably more than most!-If you wanted to keep those title intact, not much of a change would be required- for example.
H: Tales of Heresy W: £3+P&P [UK]
H: Gaunts Ghost Omnibus-The Saint W:4.50+P&P [UK]
It gives slightly more information, and allows for quick concise reading. I'll admit, it causes it to lose that slightly personal touch, but for every nice title that gives all relevant info, there's ten not so nice ones that don't. As I said, you're the exception rather than the rule in this case.
Jin wrote:I'm glad that there's some discourse about the Swap Shop. We're trying to make things run smoother and more efficiently. Just keep the discussions civil, please (it's technically part of the overall Dakka rules anyways).
That being said, Ketara has explained most of the thinking process behind the rules.
Technically, they were already there to a certain extent - for the most part, we're just actually enforcing them now.
The new format was chosen to make it simple to see who has what and what they have to trade/sell. Is it pretty? No, not particularly. Does it get straight to the point? Yes. As nice as it is to have everyone come up with fun titles for their trades, ultimately, it does have a tendency of muddying up the forum and providing nebulous information about what's actually being made available to trade (not true for every case, but for enough). If you have suggestions on how to make this system better, by all means, we are all ears. After all, we're only human and we were basing it mostly off the pre-existing rules/guidelines.
As Ketara mentioned, the PMing would've taken far too long to implement the new rule, especially since many users don't actively check their inboxes on a daily basis. Apologies if the thread edits came off as unfriendly, but it really was the fastest way to roll out the guidelines and have decent conformity in the Swap Shop.
The Country Tags, as mentioned before, were a matter of debate (which I'll admit I was in favor for). Let me explain my reasoning on this:
If you are scrolling through the Swap Shop for a trade/sale, but you personally do not want to deal with International shipping, it's MUCH easier to look at the country tag and pass up on a thread that you don't want to deal with anyways, and considering how often peoples' country flag's don't necessarily reflect the country they're in, it's an extra measure to provide readily available information regarding the country. There had been suggestions previously of saying something like, [USA -will ship internationally], but that just adds clutter to thread titles. If you don't care about the tag, ignore it, and hopefully the post itself will have info. This system is also not perfect, and is up to debate - if consensus asks for it to be removed, we'll stop enforcing it - simple as that.
Honestly, I don't really like to be a hard-ass about these rules, but realistically, it's a LOT quicker to start having everyone follow at least the basic guidelines by being a little stricter to start with. Just by seeing most of the new posts , you can already see that people are starting to follow the guidelines more. If we were laxer at this start, I can assure you it would've taken a much longer time to get the swap-shop running simply.
@HBMC:
My thought on the order of the H and W is that most people scrolling down are initially interested in what other people have that they themselves might want - hence you would intrinsically look at what people had first. At least, that's how I see things. Obviously, this viewpoint isn't necessarily shared by everyone. I suppose depending on whether you're looking at this as a buyer or seller can really tint one's opinion of the matter. This issue can also be voted on.
With regard to questions, that's a tough one. We mainly set the guidelines with respect to people knowing in advance what they had and what they wanted for what they had, and not so much this scenario. If you have any suggestions, we'd love that hear them.
@Mattlov:
I'll have to apologize for some of those titles - in chaning around thread titles we just used whatever info we could quickly glean to make the titles conform to the guidelines. Sometimes the information within threads was limited.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Arctik_Firangi wrote:
The main thing I'd like to hear is precisely what was wrong with the previous format. I don't understand why anyone has to mod what used to be an open trading board. I no longer have any interest in posting the usual 'wanted' threads I used to put up.
The new format seems to be most advantageous to people trying to pawn off their stuff, as opposed to people looking up regular, casual trades for desired bits and rare minis. If Dakka is so certainly not 'the place to trade', then why the restictions? If people want to sell piles/lists of unwanted junk, why don't they go to a dedicated forum?
As Ketara had stated in the now locked thread that athba started (and copied/pasted above), for the most part, the "new format" was always in place, just nobody enforcing it. The main issue that we saw with the "old format" was that it was 'slow', so to speak.
When Ketara, GoFenris and I were appointed as Swap Mods, we had to decide on how to handle/look after the Swap Shop. This would serve merely as an initial point so that the three of us wouldn't butt heads with each other at the onset and to make sure that we had our acts together. Our main mindset was "How can things be made so that people can quickly browse through without clicking on lots of links that ultimately they're uninterested in?". As characterful and fun as letting everyone make up whatever thread titles they wanted, it really bogs down people searching for things in the swap shop, especially when they fail to mention if all they want are trades or if they're posting things on ebay. Being succinct with Swap Thread Titles lets a person looking for stuff be able to more easily bypass the threads that they either don't have any interest in or don't have items wanted by the poster. Really, that's what all the 'restrictions' are there for - streamlining for the forum. It's unfortunate that it kills the "flavor" of the Swap Shop, but it was intended with good faith to save people time (and if you're curious anyways, there's nothing stopping you from clicking any other thread). It's unfortunate that you see it as more advantageous to people trying to pawn items, as we were hoping that it would be more beneficial to those looking for items.
Arctik_Firangi wrote:What is more, I've done almost exclusively international trades on Dakka... I pay my own shipping and in the case of an outright trade, I've never had anyone complain about paying their own.
I don't understand why everyone fixates on the country tag. Honestly, I don't. It is NOT supposed to signify an end all be all to where people are trading. This was something that I personally argued for for those people looking for trades but who did not desire to deal with international trades. If international trades aren't a concern for you, feel free to ignore the tags! My personal philosophy on the tags are, unless the OP specifically says they don't want to deal internationally, assume that they don't care. Again, something that was put in to facilitate searching for those looking for trades. Seems, however, that this is a huge hang-up for people, and I'm willing to concede the issue.
Arctik_Firangi wrote:I could add plenty of Dakka member's names to the 'reputable traders list', but as soon as that thread lifted its ugly head I knew it wouldn't end well. I can scarcely believe I was this right.
Could you elaborate on this point? I'm not sure how exactly you see it not ending well (not trying to be confrontational, just honestly trying to understand this point).
Arctik_Firangi wrote:The 'stall' thread is a good idea for a sticky, although I can already taste the spam. I'll be awaiting a good response.
I'm not 100% sure I understand what you mean about "tasting the spam", but, as it is right now, GoFenris reviews users before they're allowed a Stall, so hopefully, it won't get out of hand.
I'd like to reiterate that most of the new format was already in the old guidelines, just that they were mostly ignored and never really enforced. I want to stress that NONE OF THE NEW FORMAT IS SET IN STONE. We've repeatedly asked for feedback from people. But we can't change things for the better if people don't bring issues up. We honestly were trying to make things easier/quicker for people looking for stuff in the Swap Shop, but obviously, some objections have been raised with regard to our ideas on how to do so.
I'm sorry that you're finding the Swap Shop an unwelcoming place now, and I hope that things can change so that that opinion will change.
Jin
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Post by: Arctik_Firangi
I'm pleased with your response. I still think it's a little redundant and annoying to have a strict posting format, but you've justified everything pretty well. I posted after my first look at the new format, and had noticed a couple of users complaining about their posts being edited.
I probably still wouldn't have said anything before I saw this:
Jin wrote:Hell, I would too, to be honest. Though to be honest, it'd partially be to rule the Swap Shop with an iron fist! Hurr!
To use your words, I do now find the Swap Shop to be an 'unwelcoming place' in certain respects, but I think the new sticky threads are good ideas, and certainly call for moderation within themselves.
I'm also in the 'want' before 'have' boat, because I'm usually looking for something other than cash when trading.
The reputable traders list is fine... I just really don't want to see a public blacklist. This has probably already been ruled out, but that was the sick feeling I got when I saw the 'reputable' list. Not because I have anything to hide, but more for the drama that trading complaint threads bring up.
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Post by: GoFenris
Jin wrote:Arctik_Firangi wrote:The 'stall' thread is a good idea for a sticky, although I can already taste the spam. I'll be awaiting a good response.
I'm not 100% sure I understand what you mean about "tasting the spam", but, as it is right now, GoFenris reviews users before they're allowed a Stall, so hopefully, it won't get out of hand.
Yes and we have only had two users ask to be in the 'Swap Shop Booth' list. Truthfully, this list, in this format could only work with a handful of 'Booth' sellers. More and they might as well go back to the old list. We (all three of us) are aware of this.
Arctik_Firangi wrote:To use your words, I do now find the Swap Shop to be an 'unwelcoming place' in certain respects, but I think the new sticky threads are good ideas, and certainly call for moderation within themselves.
I'm also in the 'want' before 'have' boat, because I'm usually looking for something other than cash when trading.
The reputable traders list is fine... I just really don't want to see a public blacklist. This has probably already been ruled out, but that was the sick feeling I got when I saw the 'reputable' list. Not because I have anything to hide, but more for the drama that trading complaint threads bring up.
It is really too bad that is your feeling (regarding the Swap Shop being an unwelcome place). It is not our intent.
Admittedly, in the early days of Swap Shop modding (I know, it wasn't very long ago) Swap Shop titles were pretty black and white to me. This was not done out of any kind of 'power trip' or desire to 'rule with an iron fist' it was simply a job. I now try to be more accommodating to the creators of a title, within reason. Because, at the end of the day, it's about people trying to trade and sell some stuff. That's what the end result should be, not the other way 'round.
Now, with that said and with what Jin has already compiled nicely. We are trying to do it in a way that is balanced for everyone.
As far as 'Haves' or 'Wants' first. The truth is, 50% want it one way and 50% want it another, depending on the day, time and who is looking for what. It is really something enforced to just keep the whole thing clean. If you always know 'Wants' are second and you cue visually onto the [W] it should work fine and this is why we strictly enforce the whole [H][W] thing so much, to help people scan. Is this an issue with anyone?
As Jin has already stated. These rules are NOT permanent. If you have ideas and reasoning on why it will work better, we encourage your input.
One last thing regarding the Swap Shop Mods: When the powers that be asked us to take on the role of Swap Shop mods, the potential for disaster was high. Three people from probably disparate backgrounds and different ages with very little guidance could have caused a meltdown in the Swap Shop.
That didn't happen. And while I could gush about how great both of my compatriots (Jin and Ketara) are regarding teamwork and other gentlemanly behavior, it's important to distill this all down to a few points. We want the Swap Shop to be better and we are open to new ideas.
Regarding a set 'Black List'. None of us want that either.
Again, as been said before and will be said again, if you have issues, gripes, complaints, Tarot Readings, gas, bitches, witches, snitches, ideas, cramps, epiphanies, heartburn, dreams, snootchie bootchies, ethereal visions, brainstorms, brainfreezes or even a moment of clarity caused by an incredible bowel movement regarding the Swap Shop, let us know! Just the idea, not how it came to you. Thanks! 
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Post by: RiTides
I think some of the original bad feeling (that came out a lot in athba's thread) came from the feeling of "I wasn't made aware of this." Sort of like having the rug pulled out from you, being suprised by the sudden changes. I think having things explained a little bit goes a long way towards easing the transition.
It's pretty easy to see ( imho) that the changes are for the good. I do admit feeling resentment towards them at the beginning. But I decided to bite my tongue and see if they were for the good... and I believe they are.
If it could be done all over again, I think the transition could have been a little smoother. Imagine having the run of a place one day, and the next day having to do as you are told. There's a certain rebel in all of us that wants to kick back against that, and I think that's where the negative sentiment and the feeling of the swap shop being a little bit "unwelcome" came from.
So I really think it was the abruptness of the change that brought about the negative reaction, more than anything else. I can certainly see the benefits of the changes. And I'm also glad to have swapmods, because before it was either anarchy, the court of public opinion, or the ocassional mod intervention that ruled. It's much more consistent and fair now, and I defnitely think that's a good thing
I'll definitely make suggestions if I see room for improvement! But now that I've gotten used to the changes, I don't think I would have done anything differently... except maybe soften the landing (a bit ) for everyone who was taken off guard by it!
2889
Post by: Jin
@RiTides Nids:
Fair point about the transition. Definitely could have gone smoother, though considering how often people don't read the stickies at the top of the forum (newer and older members alike) I think a good chunk of the SwapShoppers would've still been going " WTF??!??"
To be fair, for a week or so before we started being gung-ho about the format changes, GoFenris and I had been posting up that some changes and such would be coming along.
Still, glad to hear things seem to be working out for some people. Let us know if you think of some good improvements! I have a tendency of getting complacent if there're no criticisms .
14683
Post by: Rico
I have a suggestion!
Army/Wargame specific sub-sub forums.
40k > Ig, SM, Imperium Forces (Witchhunters, SoB, Inquisition, etc), Tyranids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tau, Necrons, Chaos (everything Chaos).
WHFB > Every army. Sorry, don't really play Fantasy. Someone want to come along and fill out the armies?
Alternate Wargames, like AT-43, FoW, etc.
Miscellaneous > Cardgames, flotsam and jetsam that doesn't fit anywhere else.
So basically the format would be...
Swap Shop > 40k > (army)
Swap Shop > WHFB > (army)
Swap Shop > Alternate Wargames > (army)
Swap Shop > Miscellaneous > (hobby)
Now I am not really sure if it's possible to do a sub-sub forum. Perhaps there could be stickies where people post everything they're selling? The stickies would be titled "40k: IG sales" or "40k: Ork sales". I realize this is a big undertaking, and, like the US' healthcare system, shouldn't be done all at once or it will fail gratuitously. But if army sections could be done one at a time, the transition would be relatively smooth and the end result is a more streamlined swap shop in which hopeful buyers/sellers don't have to wade through threads that don't have anything to do with what they're interested in. Yes, Dakka is not an eBay or Bartertown, but I am not suggesting Dakka become such a thing. Merely expediting the exchanging process is my objective.
Naturally open to criticism, I'm interested in what people's thoughts on this are.
Thanks,
Rico.
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Post by: Ketara
It's an interesting idea, and certainly would help people to locate exactly what they're after faster.
However, that would fall more under Legoburners jurisdiction, and whether he wants multiple sub-forums cluttering the place up. I know it's possible, as I've administrated forums before, but due to the lack of sub-forums used thus far at Dakka Dakka, I'm inclined to think that sub-forums aren't too popular with the upper echelons. Plus, they can make the place a bit untidy.
However, if it's a popular idea, I see no reason not to bat it to the admins. Any more feedback on this idea?
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Post by: LunaHound
I dont think its fair that if multiple army are been offered in swap shop at the same time , im to condense them all into 1 giant wall of text , probably with title so long that it doesnt fit the subject bar either.
I mean im not trying to sell off 1 blister , they are their own legit whole army with their specific details ...
Thats what i think atleast . Would like to hear dakka member's opinion.
14828
Post by: Cane
Those who pay for Dakka should get more features in this regard.
2889
Post by: Jin
@Luna -
I've already explained to you about your concerns. Each of your 4 previous posts had about a paragraph-length description with a single photo and for each of those 4 threads you were requesting the same Wants. It would not have been that large of a post (especially given some of the lists that people post up) to consolidate them into a single post and the title would be fine if you use the standard abrreviations for armies, Many others seem to be able to accomplish this with no issue.
RE: subforums - while the idea is sound, there's not enough traffic in the Swap Shop forum itself (much less postings of specific armies, etc) to warrant further sub-division of the Swap Shop. If the Swap Shop were it's own separate entity from Dakka, I would probably be up for such groupings. As Ketara says, though, it'd probably untidy things up and ultimately comes down to Legoburner's/Yakface's decision (both of whom have had a tendency against creating sub-forums unless site traffic dictated a need for it).
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Post by: Rico
Jin wrote:@Luna -
I've already explained to you about your concerns. Each of your 4 previous posts had about a paragraph-length description with a single photo and for each of those 4 threads you were requesting the same Wants. It would not have been that large of a post (especially given some of the lists that people post up) to consolidate them into a single post and the title would be fine if you use the standard abrreviations for armies, Many others seem to be able to accomplish this with no issue.
RE: subforums - while the idea is sound, there's not enough traffic in the Swap Shop forum itself (much less postings of specific armies, etc) to warrant further sub-division of the Swap Shop. If the Swap Shop were it's own separate entity from Dakka, I would probably be up for such groupings. As Ketara says, though, it'd probably untidy things up and ultimately comes down to Legoburner's/Yakface's decision (both of whom have had a tendency against creating sub-forums unless site traffic dictated a need for it).
What about stickies? Perhaps consolidating things even more; for example... 40k: Imperium Forces 40k: Imperium Enemies WHFB: Good guys (Again, WHFB is not up my proverbial alley) WHFB: Bad guys Alternate Wargames Miscellaneous My sale thread is at the bottom of the second page. Since people (at least I) can't bump posts (appendation, which makes sense - fighting for the top is a whole other can of worms) my thread is going nowhere but down. I really don't care, this isn't about my sales thread. I'm in no particular hurry to sell or buy the items. But I just believe it will make the swap shop aspect of Dakka far easier. What I am envisioning is, in said stickies, people would post what they have for sale or are buying. One post per person, excess posts are deleted (exceptions dealt with on a case to case basis, naturally). When items are sold, the person edits their post, saying that their items have been sold/bought/traded/yadayadaya. These edited posts can be deleted or just left as is. Thoughts? Again, I realize Dakka is not solely a trading forum, but exchanges are a part of Dakka some partake in, and it's a cluttered shop in my eyes. Rico.
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Post by: Jin
@Rico -
I think the issue with the stickies idea is that it slows down the browsing process. Part of the reason we were being sticklers about the title formatting was so that people could quickly scan the page for what they're interested in (I've personally found having the [H] and [W] tags helps a lot with this) and skip any threads they had no interest in. Yes, you can just avoid stickies of armies or what not you're not interested in, but going through that thread would be really slow. Also, given how many people just let their threads die off a natural thread-death due to forgetfulness, there would be a lot of clutter and old/defunct trades in the threads.
I wouldn't mind having a thread like that if I wasn't so sure that a lot of posters would forget about mentioning that their items have been bought/sold and having the thread just bloat up. Moderating the thread would also be somewhat of a pain considering that us SwapMods only have limited Mod powers. For instance, we don't receive any notification if someone clicks the "Alert Moderator" buttons, and not having MOD tags or Mod color in the users list means that some people don't realize that Ketara, GoFenris and I are demi-Moderators for the Swap Shop. I can imagine the regular Mods wouldn't want to have to deal with Swap Shop stuff all the time (which, incidentally, is how we three got the job ).
I agree that it's a bit cluttered at the moment in the Swap Shop. Between stickies and sub-forums, I'd prefer the sub-forums option of clearing things up. Perhaps I'll set up a poll about it.
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Post by: warboss
so is it ok to post a thread asking if a person is a scammer? while i wouldn't say that there has been a deluge recently but i've seen more in the last two weeks than i have in the past year. i always thought that anything other than a trade post wasn't allowed. i don't have any bad experiences to post about; i just figured i'd get a mod clarification just in case of future shennanigans.
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Post by: GoFenris
I think the general sort of accepted practice is if someone has an issue with another we let them post about it and 'hash-it-out' as it were and try to remind people of the Dakka Swap Shop policies. If it gets ugly or counterproductive we will lock it.
My compatriots may have their own comments but this is how we have conducted business thus far.
I know we don't WANT to generally get involved in trade disputes because that really isn't our function at this time.
I think PM-ing individuals (whether third party or the individual in question) with requests regarding the integrity of a potential scammer may be the answer to what you are asking.
1478
Post by: warboss
thanks. also, is there a policy on original posters bumping their own threads? there is one in particular on that never leaves the front page due to daily bumps by the OP (and NO posts by anyone else).
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Post by: GoFenris
warboss wrote:thanks. also, is there a policy on original posters bumping their own threads? there is one in particular on that never leaves the front page due to daily bumps by the OP (and NO posts by anyone else).
No, self bumping/spamming is not allowed under the Swap Shop or Dakka rules. Please feel free to PM us if you notice one as we don't always catch it within the Swap Shop. Thanks.
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Post by: Jin
GoFenris wrote:I think the general sort of accepted practice is if someone has an issue with another we let them post about it and 'hash-it-out' as it were and try to remind people of the Dakka Swap Shop policies. If it gets ugly or counterproductive we will lock it.
My compatriots may have their own comments but this is how we have conducted business thus far.
I know we don't WANT to generally get involved in trade disputes because that really isn't our function at this time.
I think PM-ing individuals (whether third party or the individual in question) with requests regarding the integrity of a potential scammer may be the answer to what you are asking.
My personal philosophy on these issues has always been "Bad Trader Alerts are ok, so long as you keep it civil and avoid the name-calling". Like GoFenris, if it gets ugly or counter-productive, I will lock those threads.
We legally can't (and won't, predominantly because we can't) help forum members reclaim their things/money from bad trades conducted over the Swap Shop, but we CAN propagate the information on said traders so that others can avoid bad traders.
That being said, with a sort of recent rise in this issue, it seems like we need to come up with some official hard-set guidelines to Bad Traders. Stay tuned.
10345
Post by: LunaHound
Jin wrote:GoFenris wrote:I think the general sort of accepted practice is if someone has an issue with another we let them post about it and 'hash-it-out' as it were and try to remind people of the Dakka Swap Shop policies. If it gets ugly or counterproductive we will lock it.
My compatriots may have their own comments but this is how we have conducted business thus far.
I know we don't WANT to generally get involved in trade disputes because that really isn't our function at this time.
I think PM-ing individuals (whether third party or the individual in question) with requests regarding the integrity of a potential scammer may be the answer to what you are asking.
My personal philosophy on these issues has always been "Bad Trader Alerts are ok, so long as you keep it civil and avoid the name-calling". Like GoFenris, if it gets ugly or counter-productive, I will lock those threads.
We legally can't (and won't, predominantly because we can't) help forum members reclaim their things/money from bad trades conducted over the Swap Shop, but we CAN propagate the information on said traders so that others can avoid bad traders.
That being said, with a sort of recent rise in this issue, it seems like we need to come up with some official hard-set guidelines to Bad Traders. Stay tuned.
Yes thats good news.
Now i dont have to go rabid lol
20619
Post by: Big'Uns
Have a "courtroom" style thread. Where the aggrieved party may make a statement about their loss. Giving proof, such as confirmation/tracking, recieipt of m/o. Give the accused a specific amount of time to respond and present their own evidence.
Maybe set up like this;
[Questionable trade]
I sent package/money to (username)
(confirmation number)
It has been ( ) days/weeks
There has been no reply.
Only the accused should post a reply in the thread.
Other dakka users have a right to read the accused response, and should be encouraged to pm the individual and demand it of them.
If no response is given or it is insufficient, allow the victim to post: Username, Last name and mailing address.
That information should go into a sticky for questionable traders, that only mods can post in.
11035
Post by: GoFenris
Big'Uns wrote:Have a "courtroom" style thread. Where the aggrieved party may make a statement about their loss. Giving proof, such as confirmation/tracking, recieipt of m/o. Give the accused a specific amount of time to respond and present their own evidence.
Maybe set up like this;
[Questionable trade]
I sent package/money to (username)
(confirmation number)
It has been ( ) days/weeks
There has been no reply.
Only the accused should post a reply in the thread.
Other dakka users have a right to read the accused response, and should be encouraged to pm the individual and demand it of them.
If no response is given or it is insufficient, allow the victim to post: Username, Last name and mailing address.
That information should go into a sticky for questionable traders, that only mods can post in.
Interesting and certainly worth consideration.
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Post by: LunaHound
There is an obvious need for a bad trader list .
Having 3 victims from 1 same scammer shows the dire need of allowing trade shop users to inform each other.
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Post by: GoFenris
LunaHound wrote:
There is an obvious need for a bad trader list .
Having 3 victims from 1 same scammer shows the dire need of allowing trade shop users to inform each other.
I believe you assume there is also a NEED of a SwapShop. Please remember, the SwapShop is a courtesy provided by the Dakka powers that be.
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Post by: RiTides
GoFenris wrote:I believe you assume there is also a NEED of a SwapShop. Please remember, the SwapShop is a courtesy provided by the Dakka powers that be.
:(
I also PM'ed the SwapMods about the handling of scam-type issues, and what I was a little unsatisfied with. This post by GoFenris is what I'm talking about :(. Maybe one of you could post here if you have something public to say about it?
I'm not saying we need a thread, or anything like that (although those are all good suggestions worth considering)... I just think things could be handled a little differently.
Thanks,
Steve / RTN
11035
Post by: GoFenris
RiTides Nids wrote:GoFenris wrote:I believe you assume there is also a NEED of a SwapShop. Please remember, the SwapShop is a courtesy provided by the Dakka powers that be.
:(
I also PM'ed the SwapMods about the handling of scam-type issues, and what I was a little unsatisfied with. This post by GoFenris is what I'm talking about :(. Maybe one of you could post here if you have something public to say about it?
I'm not saying we need a thread, or anything like that (although those are all good suggestions worth considering)... I just think things could be handled a little differently.
Thanks,
Steve / RTN
Let's make it clear that we (the Swap Mods) are discussing of a better way to handle posts regarding potential scammers. However I do feel it is very important for the community to be reminded that my above post is simply a matter of fact. Please don't construe more out of it than that.
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Post by: MagickalMemories
FWIW, in my -not small- trading experience I've learned that, if you're going to allow trading, you're eventually going to attract scammers and dishonest traders.
If you have scammers and dishonest traders, and you've decided to KEEP your trading area, you NEED some public way of warning people about them.
Eric
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Post by: LunaHound
MagickalMemories wrote:FWIW, in my -not small- trading experience I've learned that, if you're going to allow trading, you're eventually going to attract scammers and dishonest traders.
If you have scammers and dishonest traders, and you've decided to KEEP your trading area, you NEED some public way of warning people about them.
Eric
Yep
I believe you assume there is also a NEED of a SwapShop. Please remember, the SwapShop is a courtesy provided by the Dakka powers that be.
Nope , never did i ever assume there is a Need of a SwapShop . Just if such thing exists , there is some responsibility that need to be held
to keep it safe. ( see what Eric said )
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Post by: Tooooon
Hey there,
Im basically just mirroring what others have said, but im a user who mostly uses Warseer, and only posts on here very rarely because I don't feel its as friendly, but still I decided to post the other day on the swap shop since im looking for something in particular. Due to not reading the multiple stickies which govern the rules, I simply posted on the title what I put on warseer which was: "W: LOTR Stuff, H: Money and a few bits [UK]". I then get it changed to "H: Unknown, W: Unknown" and the usual copy and paste post from the mods and a bit saying "As a repeat poster within the Swap Shop, please take the time to correct your thread title. " as if i've done something bad and I should have known better.
So then what do I get since its been changed to Unknown? People posting saying the title is misleading, and questioning that the original wasn't as bad/misleading. So was "W: LOTR Stuff, H: Money and a few bits [UK]" so drastic to the apparent strict rules that it warrents changing it to something which turns my topic into people complaining that its misleading due to being Unknown?
Reasons like this is WHY I tend to stay over at Warseer and don't enjoy coming over here, heck I get problems by simply posting a topic in a trading forum. Its not welcoming, its not friendly, and it doesn't make me want to come back whatsoever. Which is a shame really, since the forums have some strong points which are better than Warseers but I feel like I don't want to come here.
Just my two cents and honest opinion, and im sorry if I sound harsh. Its just how I feel as someone who posted here just to do some trading for miniatures for wargaming, nothing bloody major which I think would warrent the above problems and such harsh rules, with not one bit of friendlyness in any way, shape or form.
3197
Post by: MagickalMemories
I don't know why they'd have done that. Seems fine to me.
FWIW, your thread title would have been fine over on Bartertown:
http://www.bartertown.com/trading/
Come hang out with us, if you want. : )
Eric
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Post by: Lord-Loss
Tooon, stay away from the off-topic forum and YMDA and its very friendly.
People from other forums come to Dakka with a mindset that we're not friendly.
Stick around.
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Post by: Hawkins
I cant say that i have ever found Dakka not friendly, at times its been helpfull, and ive had no end of good input by people, its been above all enjoyable.
The new thinking behind trading in the forum is great. and i 100% agree that although dakka isnt in any way reposible for the trades that go on ,a list of (for want of a better word) scammers or presumed scammers is of great benifi to every one.
11035
Post by: GoFenris
Tooooon wrote:...I then get it changed to "H: Unknown, W: Unknown" and the usual copy and paste post from the mods and a bit saying "As a repeat poster within the Swap Shop, please take the time to correct your thread title. " as if i've done something bad and I should have known better....
This is something I have done as a Swap Mod, I can not explain how my compatriots handle their own minor issues. To explain: For the first several weeks I would simply fix the Swap Shop titles with a link to the new rules with the post explaining why I fixed it providing links to the new rules. Now that the Swap Shop has been going for over three months with Swap Shop title rules, sometimes individuals still get their titles wrong. When this happens I look at the user's "New Topics Started". If they have never posted within the Swap Shop before or not posted since the new rules have started, I will fix their title and explain the new rules. Often times, however, I run across a user that has posted several times in the Swap Shop and still gets their title wrong, although in your case, you only posted one other time. Either way this tells something; The user (for whatever reason) is not reading, or understanding the rules or looking at the numerous other examples to ensure their thread title is correct.
With this said, should I continue to fix every single thread title that is blatantly incorrect?
Now a peak into my method...
I have, in the past, PM'd users that continued to 'get it wrong'. This didn't help. I almost never received a PM back and in the one case I did, it was rude and the user threatened of going over to (drum roll please) Bartertown. To compound this, most of the users I PM'd that posted again in the Swap Shop, did so with incorrect titles.
So, should I continue to enable this type of behavior?
My answer was simple, the stock [H] Unknown [W] Unknown thread titles. Yes it is meant as a minor embarrassment and frankly, yes, if users had read and understood the rules, should have known better. Also, there are a myriad of other thread titles as examples. I know this may seem a bit mean but it is the solution I have come up with and so far it works. Now I have some users PM-ing me apologizing and asking to ensure that I check to see if their title is now correct. To which I happily PM them back saying thanks. I believe, in most cases, the user in question knows that they should have known better and were called on it.
This is the first outward complaint I have heard about it and it is probably because you have only posted within the Swap Shop one time before. I will definitely look at my process (which in general I am standing by) and perhaps begin a type of three-strike kind of system.
I hope this answers your questions and please understand, even though this is something I have done to your thread title, it was not meant as personal toward you. Your post within here (Nuts & Bolts) is causing me to re-evaluate my little program and make improvements.
As a note, the Swap Shop titles (it was decided) are strictly monitored simply to make it easier for browsers to find what they are looking for. It is really the only area monitored so tightly and consistantly within the Swap Shop.
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Post by: LunaHound
Here is a simple way i look at this swap shop rules , its just my opinion so , not that it matters anyways.
1) If the original title is useful in its description , more useful than the [H] Unknown [W] Unknown , keep it.
Since you are going to post a reply in it of linking the posting rules , just do that and leave the title alone.
If the user feels like complying , yay, if not? no matter .
2) "It is really the only area monitored so tightly and consistantly within the Swap Shop. " Why? do people see convenience in seeing this enforced so tightly?
I think making editing ebay seller into their titles + taking care of scammers are a more important priority.
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Post by: warboss
toon, in general i think dakka is a lot more friendly than warseer. on warseer, the modding in general is a heck of alot stricter and threads gets closed down not necessarily because they're breaking the rules but because they're annoying the mods. i don't necessarily mind that because those same threads tend to annoy me as well but its certainly not a more lax environment. outside of the swap forum which needs it (and to a lesser extent news/rumors), the modding is a lot more lax.
back to dakka, i prefer the unknown unknown titles in the swap shop. i check there daily and the old "i'll post a subject with no actual details so people will check it out anyways just to see what's there" thread titles were quite annoying so i welcome the change. the unknown/unknown format forces them to change it rather than forcing the mods to do the work of people that don't read the stickies. frankly, i came here to post that i think dakka should make some official rules or at least guideline regarding WHEN to post trade transaction reports. with the increased number of bad trader reports, people have started posting them WAY too early. someone posted one last week when they didn't hear back from someone after 4 days accusing them of scamming and threatening to call the police. today we have someone expecting to recieve minis 10 days after sending his part of a trans-pacific trade.
2889
Post by: Jin
warboss wrote:frankly, i came here to post that i think dakka should make some official rules or at least guideline regarding WHEN to post trade transaction reports. with the increased number of bad trader reports, people have started posting them WAY too early. someone posted one last week when they didn't hear back from someone after 4 days accusing them of scamming and threatening to call the police. today we have someone expecting to recieve minis 10 days after sending his part of a trans-pacific trade.
Well, we do recommend having some patience with regard to transactions to reasonable extent. If someone's genuinely concerned that a drop in contact could be fishy, I don't think we should necessarily prohibit a TR.
One aspect that I like about the TR's is that it can be a reflection of both the person who the TR was raised about, and the person who raised the TR. Remember - your behavior in calling out a trader demonstrates to others what kind of a trader you are yourself. So if you are a bit quick to shoot off a TR, it exhibits a tendency toward impatience. That being said, I understand why people would feel nervous about losing contact during a trade, especially when dealing with larger trades and why they may feel easily inclined to post a TR. For that reason, I wouldn't personally ever delete a TR unless I thought it was _completely_ unreasonable (ie, "I sent you this two days ago, where's my stuff?!??") though I will actively moderate the thread and PM individuals to mitigate things.
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Post by: RiTides
Tooooon wrote:I simply posted on the title what I put on warseer which was: "W: LOTR Stuff, H: Money and a few bits [UK]". I then get it changed to "H: Unknown, W: Unknown"
GoFenris wrote:Your post within here (Nuts & Bolts) is causing me to re-evaluate my little program and make improvements.
I'm glad that the feedback from Tooooon is helping iron out the process. I'd like to make a suggestion about the process, too. If it's one of the user's first attempts (you mentioned three strikes) and they put details in the title such as Tooooon did, simply rearrange the title. For example, if I'm a new user and I post:
"W: fantasy chaos bits H: paypal"
You could change it to:
"[H] paypal [W] fantasy chaos bits"
This wouldn't involve much extra labor, just rearranging the existing title, instead of the Unknown-unknown title. I also saw a lot of complaints about these titles, and I didn't realize that it was due to an editing. I think keeping existing details (if it was within the first 3 strikes, or whatever system you are using) would be a lot more helpful overall.
Also... thanks for the hard work, swapmods
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Unrelated to the above
Here's an idea: What about a separate area for transaction reports? I know that would be a legoburner question, and it's probably too much work to implement. But gosh if there aren't a lot of those things floating about, now!
11035
Post by: GoFenris
RiTides wrote:Tooooon wrote:I simply posted on the title what I put on warseer which was: "W: LOTR Stuff, H: Money and a few bits [UK]". I then get it changed to "H: Unknown, W: Unknown"
GoFenris wrote:Your post within here (Nuts & Bolts) is causing me to re-evaluate my little program and make improvements.
I'm glad that the feedback from Tooooon is helping iron out the process. I'd like to make a suggestion about the process, too. If it's one of the user's first attempts (you mentioned three strikes) and they put details in the title such as Tooooon did, simply rearrange the title. For example, if I'm a new user and I post:
"W: fantasy chaos bits H: paypal"
You could change it to:
"[H] paypal [W] fantasy chaos bits"
This wouldn't involve much extra labor, just rearranging the existing title, instead of the Unknown-unknown title. I also saw a lot of complaints about these titles, and I didn't realize that it was due to an editing. I think keeping existing details (if it was within the first 3 strikes, or whatever system you are using) would be a lot more helpful overall.
Also... thanks for the hard work, swapmods
Thanks. I usually do just fix them when it is the first time or almost there. I must have been testy that day. Not an excuse, however, which is why I am trying to write something up for myself so that I can always be impartial regarding this stuff.
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Post by: porkuslime
Suggestion... in the Reputable Trader thread, in addition to having a list of those who say the other trader is ace.. why not also stick a note in there in red (or other visible color) when someone has a transaction report opened against them..
that way there is both positive and negative notations when you look up a potential trader. (and yes, I know this has a potential for more work for the SwapMods)
11035
Post by: GoFenris
porkuslime wrote:Suggestion... in the Reputable Trader thread, in addition to having a list of those who say the other trader is ace.. why not also stick a note in there in red (or other visible color) when someone has a transaction report opened against them..
that way there is both positive and negative notations when you look up a potential trader. (and yes, I know this has a potential for more work for the SwapMods)
Noted
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Post by: RiTides
This could also be implemented only if the transaction report is "unresolved"... i.e., while it's unresolved, the note is there, which motivates people to work to fix things quickly and have it removed.
11029
Post by: Ketara
This is currently undergoing discussion in the mod forum, and a version may very well be implemented.
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Post by: warboss
i've noticed from the closed thread posts by mods that the policy on how many threads a user is allowed in the swap shop seems to have stealth changed. i didn't see an official policy listed in the sticky on this matter. in the past, it seemed like our valiant mods would close people's additional threads after two were started (later with a cavaet that two were allowed IF completely different types of things... i.e. one for 40k, one for fantasy); i noticed today a closure with a message about having only a single active post and not starting *any* new threads in the 4 day bump moratorium. can you guys add that maybe as a new post in the swap shop guidelines away from the walls of text in other posts?
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Post by: RiTides
warboss wrote: mods would close people's additional threads after two were started (later with a cavaet that two were allowed IF completely different types of things... i.e. one for 40k, one for fantasy)
We have been allowing posters who regularly update their threads to have two for vastly different offerings that they have a Lot of. One for 40k and one for fantasy is not needed unless that post really has SO much to offer that it justifies two threads.
warboss wrote:i noticed today a closure with a message about having only a single active post and not starting *any* new threads in the 4 day bump moratorium.
This has been in response to ebay sellers posting a LOT of new threads in the subforum. I.e., they post a thread linking to a single auction one day, and then a new thread linking to another a day or two after.
This certainly does not fall within the above guidelines (which you laid out and is approximately what we're going by atm) about having two threads. So can you explain what the problem is?
I would have thought cracking down on multiple new threads started for single ebay items and the like would be welcome by regular swap shop posters. At least one person who has been doing this recently agreed to start compiling their offerings into a single thread and simply updating it. Imho, it makes things much cleaner and easier to keep track of.
Grey areas like this are only fleshed out as we go- if you have suggestions, I would love to hear them. But people posting up new threads for single items a few days after another seems to have become the "new bump" so to speak, and that is why we've been cracking down on it.
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Post by: warboss
i think you've got it wrong... i actually *like* the change to restrict people to one active thread and frequently report posts/threads that bump my poor trade thread down the list illegally. i just think it'd be a good idea to codify the policy in the swap shop guidelines threads (i didn't see anything there about it when i looked). there is no *problem* to speak off.
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Post by: RiTides
Ah, that's what I would have thought! I have been meaning to go over the rules and see if the language in the bumping section isn't explicit enough to cover this... so that will happen very soon.
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Post by: MadMaverick76
Would mandating a minimum number of posts required before being able to post in the Swap Shop Forum be beneficial? I was a member of a paintball forum years ago which had some issues with "trolls" and "scammers" to which requiring a minimum post count in order to make a B/S/T thread turned out very beneficial. I believe the amount of monthly "offenses" was cut in half.
Essentially, new users that didn't have the minimum post count were still allowed to browse said forums, just unable to start a new thread if they did not meet the minimum post requirement.
I understand DakkaDakka is a "use at your own risk" site, but it seems that due to the amount of Transaction Reports (Albeit not high), is slowly devolving the Swap Shop into a bit of a game of paranoia. When I say paranoia in the sense that even if a buyer/seller doesn't respond in a few hours people assume the worse.
Anyway, sorry for the text wall, just an idea.
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Post by: RiTides
Good idea MM, I know it has been considered before as well. I'll see if I can't find the discussion we had on it and see what the arguments were; I believe the reason it wasn't implemented was due to it being restrictive to new members (obviously). People certainly are more trustworthy who are invested in the community, which a higher post count (or even better, prior reputable trades) definitely point to.
The main precaution people should be taking, especially when dealing with new users, is to use Paypal. It gets a lot stickier if it's a two-way trade, rather than a purchase... which some of the recent TRs seemed to be.
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Post by: MadMaverick76
RiTides wrote:Good idea MM, I know it has been considered before as well. I'll see if I can't find the discussion we had on it and see what the arguments were; I believe the reason it wasn't implemented was due to it being restrictive to new members (obviously). People certainly are more trustworthy who are invested in the community, which a higher post count (or even better, prior reputable trades) definitely point to.
The main precaution people should be taking, especially when dealing with new users, is to use Paypal. It gets a lot stickier if it's a two-way trade, rather than a purchase... which some of the recent TRs seemed to be.
Sounds good sir. I tried taking a look for a discussion because I am sure it has been discussed before. I figured that even with a lower minimum count (possibly 50?) that even a new member would hit that mark on an average within 10 days or so. I also have seen it prevent "one-time" users from just signing up to sell things, generally with no prior reputation. If it is something that makes more work for you and the other mods, then definitely just disregard it. You guys do a great job as it is.
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Post by: Sekai
Hey, I'm pretty sure it's been answered, as it must be a common question, but can I post up items that are not Gaming related, but wanting Gaming items in trade for it?
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Post by: Barksdale
A little consistency in moderating the swap shop should be implemented. As it stands certain posts are locked for having more than one trade thread or bumping within the 4 day limit whereas others are not. For a latter example take the following two cases. Here a thread has been bumped violating the 4 day bump rule. Note that it was first bumped on October 3 and again on October 6. Also note, however, that it remains unlocked. Similarly, here a thread has been bumped violating the 4 day bump rule. It was started on September 27 and bumped on September 30. In contrast to the previous example, however, it was locked. The swap shop rules are consistent with the latter example, see here. Is there something I am missing or are certain users posts able to slip through the cracks so to speak?
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Post by: Ketara
The answer: SwapShop moderators are human. We try to catch what we can, but are dependent on time zones and personal time to spare, alas. If you see anyone breaking the 4 day bump rule however, feel free to hit the mod alert button, and then we can see and deal with ASAP.
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Post by: Jin
Sekai wrote:Hey, I'm pretty sure it's been answered, as it must be a common question, but can I post up items that are not Gaming related, but wanting Gaming items in trade for it?
For the most part, yes. Some things (namely, high-end electronics) we generally discourage as this is really not an appropriate venue for those kinds of items (even if you are attempting to trade for gaming items).
Barksdale wrote: Is there something I am missing or are certain users posts able to slip through the cracks so to speak?
As Ketara mentioned: we're human. Most times it's just as simple as bad mental arithmetic on our parts or us overlooking something by accident. We tend to get most infractions of the rule, but some slip by. As Ketara said, though, a quick Mod Alert on the offending post and one of us (probably filbert, since he's a ninja like that) will likely be on top of it.
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Post by: Barksdale
Thanks for the responses guys! I was unsure whether the moderators had something special to indicate infractions. I'll try to help out and hit the alert whenever I browse the swap shop and see a violation.
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Post by: WarOne
Ketara wrote:The answer: SwapShop moderators are human. We try to catch what we can, but are dependent on time zones and personal time to spare, alas. If you see anyone breaking the 4 day bump rule however, feel free to hit the mod alert button, and then we can see and deal with ASAP.
Keep on mind too that a non-Swap Shop mod can intervene as well. Not often, but it is possible for another mod to step in too, especially if it is pointed out that a Swap Shop moderator is not operating at that time.
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Post by: Barksdale
Here is the latest example from yesterday from Commisar Wolfie. First bumped on October 8. Second bump on October 11. I am trying to help out. Still, I am noticing many times my alerts are either not going through or are being ignored. There are other examples over the past few days. Or am I wrong that this user is in violation of the swap shop posting rules?
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Post by: warboss
Barksdale wrote:Here is the latest example from yesterday from Commisar Wolfie. First bumped on October 8. Second bump on October 11. I am trying to help out. Still, I am noticing many times my alerts are either not going through or are being ignored. There are other examples over the past few days. Or am I wrong that this user is in violation of the swap shop posting rules?
Part of the problem could be different timezones. On my screen, he's listed as 10/7 and 10/11 (but he bumped it 12 hours earlier than the true 4 day limit). If a mod just took a quick look at the dates, they may not catch the time discrepancy.
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Post by: filbert
Its quite tricky with some of the them. I am extra careful with Stateside posters because quite often they will show up on my screen as being 3 days but because of timezone vagaries, actually be 4 days. All I can say is, if you report them, they do get looked at and they do get actioned.
Unfortunately, there aren't any 'automated' Swap mod tools (for want of a better word) that flag up when someone has broken the rules - it's all done by eye and vigilance. I'm afraid we don't often have the time to sit down with a calculator and work out to the minute whether someone is early or not. I can't speak for the others but most of my modding is done in bursts of 5 or 10 mins here and there when I have time.
In reference to the example linked above, it may well be that he is technically a few hours early (I haven't taken the time to work it out - just judging on the dates) but I don't necessarily see too much of an issue. It's when people abuse that system and take advantage of good nature that it becomes and issue.
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Post by: RiTides
As filbert points out, if someone puts up a post Monday, and puts in a reply to it on Friday, with a few hours discrepancy... that might be let slide. It's the razor edge of the rule, though, so it's a risk to do it! But we'd rather err on the side of not locking if the user, looking at the date of their post, thought they were in the clear to post, even though it hasn't technically been four full 24 hours days.
Mod alerts on bumps is helpful- however, berating us about a few hours slack given to someone may not be so much . I'm not sure why it'd be important to anyone to have another person's post locked because of a few hours mistake!
(Final disclaimer, your post CAN be locked if it's 3.5 days... so it's a good idea if you're aware of it to wait the full 4. But, it may not be... and I don't think there needs to be any change to that, as we're already quite strict about this)
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Post by: Barksdale
I don't care about anyone's thread being locked or not. I am, however, attempting to improve the Swap Shop experience. There is a popup that states if the post is within the 4 day limit. Thus, there is no reason to deem this a mistake of a few hours. Having said that, however, I have noticed that this does not work properly if you edit the original post prior to bumping the thread. Perhaps this is something that may be addressed at some point in the future. Or not.
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Post by: LunaHound
My most immediate concern as a couple of incident have shown, is bad traders do multiple bad trades simultaneously.
There should be a plan to deal with that.
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Post by: RiTides
Barksdale wrote:I have noticed that this does not work properly if you edit the original post prior to bumping the thread. Perhaps this is something that may be addressed at some point in the future.
Yes, editing fools the pop-up into thinking you've already replied to the thread. We've let lego know about it and it's in his queue to fix, but low priority as it's apparently pretty difficult to do... and users who are savvy enough to edit their posts (not everyone knows how!) are usually able to figure out that it's in error. I've had a number of PMs about it over time, though, so hopefully it does get fixed eventually.
LunaHound wrote:My most immediate concern as a couple of incident have shown, is bad traders do multiple bad trades simultaneously.
There should be a plan to deal with that.
This is a problem inherent with people who do underhanded business anywhere on the net... it just makes too much sense to hit more than one person at once.
I'm not sure what we can do about this one, though, other than remind people to stick to the precautions listed. If you're paying someone by Paypal, you'll have a full 45 days to realize something's up and file a claim. If they're brand new or you have reason to doubt (but for whatever reason still want to trade) you can ask them to ship their half of the trade first.
The most dangerous situation is the most common- a simultaneous trade. I'll do these for low dollar amounts, but for a higher value trade I usually stick to using Paypal, or check out the other trader as thoroughly as I can first and, if they don't have many posts/reputable trades or have an unresolved transaction report, I'll ask them to ship their half first.
Doing that should help people avoid Most unscrupulous persons... but there's not one catch-all for every situation- even using Paypal the other person can try to commit fraud by sending the wrong item or the like, and hope Paypal takes their side in the claim.
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Post by: Breotan
I've been thinking that the mandatory thread layout should be modified slightly for eBay auction threads.
Currently using the [H][W] tags for eBay auctions is clumsy and redundant since all auction threads are selling items for money and not conducting trades. Using the [H][W] tags in auction threads also makes it a little more difficult to quickly skim past them if you are just looking for people interested in trading.
I suggest eBay (and only eBay) subject format be changed as follows:
[eBay] Stuff that is being listed on eBay [USA]
This will make it easier to find or ignore these threads depending on what you are looking to do.
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Post by: LunaHound
RiTides wrote:Barksdale wrote:I have noticed that this does not work properly if you edit the original post prior to bumping the thread. Perhaps this is something that may be addressed at some point in the future.
Yes, editing fools the pop-up into thinking you've already replied to the thread. We've let lego know about it and it's in his queue to fix, but low priority as it's apparently pretty difficult to do... and users who are savvy enough to edit their posts (not everyone knows how!) are usually able to figure out that it's in error. I've had a number of PMs about it over time, though, so hopefully it does get fixed eventually.
LunaHound wrote:My most immediate concern as a couple of incident have shown, is bad traders do multiple bad trades simultaneously.
There should be a plan to deal with that.
This is a problem inherent with people who do underhanded business anywhere on the net... it just makes too much sense to hit more than one person at once.
I'm not sure what we can do about this one, though, other than remind people to stick to the precautions listed. If you're paying someone by Paypal, you'll have a full 45 days to realize something's up and file a claim. If they're brand new or you have reason to doubt (but for whatever reason still want to trade) you can ask them to ship their half of the trade first.
The most dangerous situation is the most common- a simultaneous trade. I'll do these for low dollar amounts, but for a higher value trade I usually stick to using Paypal, or check out the other trader as thoroughly as I can first and, if they don't have many posts/reputable trades or have an unresolved transaction report, I'll ask them to ship their half first.
Doing that should help people avoid Most unscrupulous persons... but there's not one catch-all for every situation- even using Paypal the other person can try to commit fraud by sending the wrong item or the like, and hope Paypal takes their side in the claim.
See this is where we view things differently.
I like to leave my offers inside the seller's thread directly. For you guys, you assume im giving free thread bumps.
When the real reason is ( drum roll )
When i make a offer ( or others offers ) in the thread, we can look at seller's reply. Does the seller look like he know who they are selling to?
Or... does it look like they want to "sell" to everyone that has offered? ( this happened many times before with scammers, WE NOTICED them accepting offers from multiple people at same time while we
we're n negotiation phase just before paying. Its easier for scammers to con multiple people if everything is done in PM and hidden from everyone's sight.
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Post by: MagickalMemories
Breotan wrote:I've been thinking that the mandatory thread layout should be modified slightly for eBay auction threads.
Currently using the [H][W] tags for eBay auctions is clumsy and redundant since all auction threads are selling items for money and not conducting trades. Using the [H][W] tags in auction threads also makes it a little more difficult to quickly skim past them if you are just looking for people interested in trading.
I suggest eBay (and only eBay) subject format be changed as follows:
[eBay] Stuff that is being listed on eBay [USA]
This will make it easier to find or ignore these threads depending on what you are looking to do.
Great idea.
I think this is a stellar suggestion.
MODS, make it so!
lol
Eric
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Post by: filbert
MagickalMemories wrote:Breotan wrote:I've been thinking that the mandatory thread layout should be modified slightly for eBay auction threads.
Currently using the [H][W] tags for eBay auctions is clumsy and redundant since all auction threads are selling items for money and not conducting trades. Using the [H][W] tags in auction threads also makes it a little more difficult to quickly skim past them if you are just looking for people interested in trading.
I suggest eBay (and only eBay) subject format be changed as follows:
[eBay] Stuff that is being listed on eBay [USA]
This will make it easier to find or ignore these threads depending on what you are looking to do.
Great idea.
I think this is a stellar suggestion.
MODS, make it so!
lol
Eric
It's difficult enough to get people to stick to the [H] [W] [Country] format as it is. Every morning, I log in and have to edit a bunch of them and I'm sure the same is true of all the other mods.
Now, the suggested ebay thread title format is certainly a good idea and we shall certainly discuss it between us but I'm not so sure that adding yet another title format requirement will have the desired effect. I suspect people will either ignore it and continue using the current standard or get confused as to which to use. The third way is of course that they ignore all formatting rules completely which is what a certain proportion of posters tend to do.
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Post by: MagickalMemories
Maybe you're being too limiting, if it's such a headache?
For example, why require the brackets? When I'm looking at ads here and BTown, it's not hard to discern H:/W:.
Also, instead of fixing the ads for people, have you thought about just deleting them? Someone spends a half hour putting something together, only to find it's been deleted and they've got a PM telling them why and notifying them that they still have to wait 4 days to repost an ad, and they'll catch on quick enough.
It would be easy to have a separate "hidden" forum for things just like this. Just move the ad there and PM the OP (which could be done via a "form letter" PM).
If you keep fixing them for people, they won't learn.
Eric
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or, rather than REQUIRING it, then ALLOW [Ebay] as a tag. It will catch on quick if people want to use it.
Just a thought.
Erif
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Post by: filbert
MagickalMemories wrote:Maybe you're being too limiting, if it's such a headache?
For example, why require the brackets? When I'm looking at ads here and BTown, it's not hard to discern H:/W:.
Also, instead of fixing the ads for people, have you thought about just deleting them? Someone spends a half hour putting something together, only to find it's been deleted and they've got a PM telling them why and notifying them that they still have to wait 4 days to repost an ad, and they'll catch on quick enough.
It would be easy to have a separate "hidden" forum for things just like this. Just move the ad there and PM the OP (which could be done via a "form letter" PM).
If you keep fixing them for people, they won't learn.
The reason why we have a standard is primarily to allow people to quickly and easily browse thread titles for items of interest - the whole point of having a standard is that you require people to stick to it. If you don't enforce a standard then it quickly starts to degenerate and pretty soon, people aren't even bothering with H and W at all. The current standard was chosen by the Swap team after numerous and lengthy discussion; it wasn't something picked at random or on a whim, the primary driver was to try and regulate the Swap Shop which had been fairly lawless up to that point. I don't think it is particularly onerous a task to ask people to stick to the proscribed format - the problem comes when people post before reading the sticky thread that lays out the rules and guidelines. But people not reading stickies isn't just a phenomenon limited to the Swap Shop unfortunately.
In terms of trying to educate users it isn't just a case of fixing titles alone; we firstly warn and direct to the relevant rules section - I personally give people a couple of threads grace. If they still don't comply then I will issue a last warning and from that point, threads are deleted and PMs sent. I would prefer not to; you'd be surprised how vitriolic and abusive some people can be just because I have had the temerity to delete the thread but ultimately, most people are pretty understanding. However, deleting threads and sending PMs is still the same as formatting titles; ultimately, it is moderator intervention of one sort or another. I think we would all prefer if there were none at all.
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Post by: Breotan
Having two standards for two type of Swap Shop threads really doesn't seem any more difficult than having one type of standard attempting to fit every possible type of post.
Set up the rules to use [H][W] for trades and [eBay] for auctions. Should be relatively easy. Just put an announcement in the News/Rumors forum about the rules change so people will be aware of it and you should have less to do at your end.
This new format won't solve any of your problems as a moderator. I expect you'll have the same amount of work to do at your end as you otherwise would. I simply suggested it for the users' convenience to better sort through the posts. Think of it as a signal to noise issue and you'll see what I mean.
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Post by: MagickalMemories
you'd be surprised how vitriolic and abusive some people can be just because I have had the temerity to delete the thread
I think you'd find me QUITE sympathetic. ; )
No harm or criticism was intended in my last post, BTW.
I wasn't referring to the H & W in general. Only to the use of brackets. It's easier to just "H:" a line.
You are, of course, correct about getting people to even use them at all. It's like herding cats. That's why I think it would be easier on you to not require brackets.
Question:
If someone posted an ad and, rather than saying [h] and [w], it said [ebay], would that person have problems with staff or would you overlook it, due to it's more specific nature?
Regardless, in the end, it's your Swap Shop, so you make the rules. I won't criticize the way you do it. That's for sure.
Eric
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Post by: warboss
Put me in for keeping it the same as currently for simplicity. There are enough people that either half read or just don't read the single title format guideline as is... if you end up changing it for something that is only marginally better, you run the risk of having to re-educate the people you've already had to correct who eventually adopted the format. While the proposed format is a bit clearer and distinguishable, I see the potential disadvantages with confusion as more substantial.
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Post by: LunaHound
I still think ebay threads needs to be removed, or be placed into a sub section of SwapShop.
(sure a section where its all ebay stuff )
Because its not a trade, and only an ad.
An ad that has nothing to do with Dakka but to do with ebay.
And to have the same space contested isn't right.
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Post by: RiTides
Breotan - It is a good idea for clarity, but I think filbert/warboss are right in that it would be very hard to get people to comply with a different standard for Ebay threads.
Lunahound - I'm not sure where your response came from, particularly since you quoted my post, which makes no mention of whether or not it's OK to leave an offer in a thread. It is, of course, OK- however, if you need to make multiple posts working something out, it is appropriate to take it to PM.
MagickalMemories - The idea of making the optional ebay formatting "optional" would, I think, be the correct way to implement it if we decided to make it an option. However, I'd be concerned that loosening the title rules would open the door to people not using the tags... as the stricter we are with them, the more people seem to use them. The square brackets are likewise- requiring them seems to get people to use more tags in general (in my opinion) whereas allowing any kind of tag formatting seems to result in more tagless threads. However, none of it keeps new users from not reading the rules / looking at the thread titles posted and just making a tagless title, which are the majority of the ones we have to edit (and why we wouldn't delete after the first offense or two, or without PM'ing).
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Post by: MagickalMemories
RiTides wrote:MagickalMemories - The idea of making the optional ebay formatting "optional" would, I think, be the correct way to implement it if we decided to make it an option. However, I'd be concerned that loosening the title rules would open the door to people not using the tags... as the stricter we are with them, the more people seem to use them. The square brackets are likewise- requiring them seems to get people to use more tags in general (in my opinion) whereas allowing any kind of tag formatting seems to result in more tagless threads. However, none of it keeps new users from not reading the rules / looking at the thread titles posted and just making a tagless title, which are the majority of the ones we have to edit (and why we wouldn't delete after the first offense or two, or without PM'ing).
Well, you've definitely got a point there.
That's something that *ahem* I underrstand intimately. lol If you don't put many limitations on titling, you get some real doozies. : )
Like I said, no criticisms here, just spitballing, so-to-speak... The problem that you'll eventually run into with ebay ads - or, more specifically, the problem you're running into with ebay ads- is that a lot of people get ticked at posts (myself included) that [W] PayPal, only to open it and find links to auctions... If I wanted to bid on auctions, I'd go to feebay.
More and more, people are going to get annoyed with it. It's one of those little things that snowballs.
That's why BTown gave them their own forum and polices it with prejudice. We got so many feebay ads slipping in with the trade ads that it was a PITA to find a trade ad at times. lol
Not to say you should be like BTown, mind you. You've got a good thing here. I'm just mentioning it as an example of WHY we did it and not necessarily as an example you should follow.
Eric
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Post by: LunaHound
Just separate ebay auctions away from normal swap trade/ sells.
There are no advantage whats so ever mixing them together.
The only thing would be minor inconvenience for yak or lego to make a sub section.
I may not be a mod but im good when it comes to thinking.
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Post by: Breotan
I wouldn't call a change of format for auctions "loosening the rules". The format is still the same, albeit one with a set of tags that the other type omits. I guess moderating it may be like herding cats but I just don't see it causing mass panic in the streets, dogs and cats sleeping together, etc.
Besides, it seems to me that people who wouldn't follow the proposed dual formats are the same ones who don't follow the current format anyway. :/
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Post by: Jin
@MM - We understand the frustration with EBAY threads. Lord knows I've run into the same issue myself. That's mainly why we have the EBAY/[EBAY] tags (hopefully) appended to the ends of titles. It's easy to see and should allow uninterested parties to avoid the thread. Is everyone going to follow the guidelines? No. Though that's gonna be true of any guidelines/rules we set up. Lots of people just don't read the rules. However, if someone ends up failing to add an EBAY tag at the end, we ask that you guys just flag the thread with the Mod Alert. Usually doesn't take us very long to get there and take care of it.
You have to keep in mind, though, that we really only have a single forum dedicated to the Swap Shop and, unless there's been a change of mind, the Powers That Be (tm) don't really want to expand the Swap Shop past what we have it. While we have increased traffic with the increased membership base of Dakka, the Swap Shop is still a relatively small and minor portion of the site and there are ultimately larger sites dedicated to trading (BT being probably the most prominent at the moment). While there's the occasional "feebay ad" that pops up in the Swap Shop, I haven't noticed it to be too large of an issue that I would consider it a crisis. Currently, the majority of the threads do seem to remain as regular trade threads.
Also, regarding the []'s - they're there to provide a visual break for people perusing the forum. It's a lot easier to define where the Haves and Wants are by breaking up the text with the brackets than without.
@Luna - As we've mentioned many times in the past whenever this issue comes up, it's ultimately the decision of the Lego and Yakface to make. And while it may seem like a "minor" inconvenience, there are site-performance issues and overhead to deal with the addition of new sub-fora. Additionally, I do suspect creating a specific EBAY forum would entice people to try to spam that forum with EBAY ads, which I'd be loathe to have to sift through. If you feel very strongly about the issue, I'd recommend petitioning them directly.
@Breotan - While I appreciate the idea behind the 'Ebay Thread Guidelines', I just don't think it really offers enough in return to warrant the possible headaches it could lead to (and there would be headaches). I still believe the easiest way to mark off an EBAY thread is to add the tag at the end. While there is redundancy, I don't really particularly mind people with a single link in their threads to have to spend the extra time to add a couple of extra tags to their thread titles.
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Post by: MagickalMemories
the Swap Shop is still a relatively small and minor portion of the site and there are ultimately larger sites dedicated to trading
Definitely. This is also why I agree with your assessment on separating out an auction forum... the size of your trade section just doesn't support it. If you guys were going to expand your trade area, then a separate forum might be worth looking into.
It's the same reason BT has unusual pairings in some forums (like board & video games together). Individually, they're each too small for their own forum, but they do just enough combined to have their own. Same issue with feebay ads here.
Also, regarding the []'s - they're there to provide a visual break for people perusing the forum. It's a lot easier to define where the Haves and Wants are by breaking up the text with the brackets than without.
Damn you and your new fangled "logic!" Why, back in my day, we had to make due with suppositions and outright guesses!
That's a good point. It's a definite visual break.
I'm curious; What would cause a change to current policy? Would it have to be member or staff instigated? I mean, what if you suddenly had 20 members clamoring for some type of feebay segregation, even if only by a different bracketing requirement? Would that make it a higher priority consideration?
No real reason for asking, other than I'm wondering. I'm always looking for ways to do things better, and it helps to pick the brains of those with informed opinions.
Eric
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Post by: RiTides
MagickalMemories wrote:I'm curious; What would cause a change to current policy?
Generally, things that are easy to implement and/or very needed get taken up. This thread by warboss is a good example:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/358729.page
Where he suggested editing in the lock message, which we do at times depending on the situation.
Another example is the Transaction Report list, which while not exactly what a lot of people had wanted, was based on lots of user's feedback, and was very needed due to the search function being faulty and people not being able to find them.
The addition of the pop-up messages by legoburner warning people about including tags in their titles or about bumping early is another example. That's a rarer type to get implemented as it's hard for lego to make time to add features to the swapshop when there are more pressing needs on the site... but was also very needed to give people a "first chance" to not break the rules themselves, or to inform them of the rules if they hadn't read the stickie.
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Post by: warboss
RiTides wrote:MagickalMemories wrote:I'm curious; What would cause a change to current policy?
Generally, things that are easy to implement and/or very needed get taken up. This thread by warboss is a good example:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/358729.page
Where he suggested editing in the lock message, which we do at times depending on the situation.
woohoo! viva la evoluction! Now if only my idea for not allowing link-only thread starting would gain some traction.
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Post by: MagickalMemories
I'd support it.
Eric
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Post by: RiTides
Right now our current crackdown is (at least attempting to be) on ebay "final day" bump threads. I.e., people bump knowing it will be locked, but do it anyway since it's the last day... at this point we're at times deleting those threads rather than simply locking.
Perhaps link-only posts would be next, although personally I haven't seen enough of those to warrant a crackdown... it is pretty lazy not to at least copy a description of an auction or the like into the post, though!
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Post by: Cyporiean
RiTides wrote:Right now our current crackdown is (at least attempting to be) on ebay "final day" bump threads. I.e., people bump knowing it will be locked, but do it anyway since it's the last day... at this point we're at times deleting those threads rather than simply locking.
Didn't know that bumping of an eBay thread is not allowed, it doesn't seem to be listed in the Rules sticky...
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Post by: Grakmar
Cyporiean wrote:RiTides wrote:Right now our current crackdown is (at least attempting to be) on ebay "final day" bump threads. I.e., people bump knowing it will be locked, but do it anyway since it's the last day... at this point we're at times deleting those threads rather than simply locking.
Didn't know that bumping of an eBay thread is not allowed, it doesn't seem to be listed in the Rules sticky...
No, he's saying that people bump an eBay thread before the time limit between bumps is up.
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Post by: Cyporiean
Grakmar wrote:Cyporiean wrote:RiTides wrote:Right now our current crackdown is (at least attempting to be) on ebay "final day" bump threads. I.e., people bump knowing it will be locked, but do it anyway since it's the last day... at this point we're at times deleting those threads rather than simply locking.
Didn't know that bumping of an eBay thread is not allowed, it doesn't seem to be listed in the Rules sticky...
No, he's saying that people bump an eBay thread before the time limit between bumps is up.
ah, so bumping twice in a 7 day period.
But bumping on final day with no previous bumps is alright?
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Post by: Grakmar
Cyporiean wrote:Grakmar wrote:Cyporiean wrote:RiTides wrote:Right now our current crackdown is (at least attempting to be) on ebay "final day" bump threads. I.e., people bump knowing it will be locked, but do it anyway since it's the last day... at this point we're at times deleting those threads rather than simply locking.
Didn't know that bumping of an eBay thread is not allowed, it doesn't seem to be listed in the Rules sticky...
No, he's saying that people bump an eBay thread before the time limit between bumps is up.
ah, so bumping twice in a 7 day period.
But bumping on final day with no previous bumps is alright?
It's actually one bump every 4 days.
So, as long as it's been 4 or more days since your last bump, you can bump again.
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Post by: RiTides
Right, sorry that wasn't clear! Someone will post an ebay auction, with say 3 days left... then bump it on the last day not caring that it will be locked due to an early bump, since it's ending, anyway. The only way to stop it seems to be to delete the threads until repeat offenders stop doing it...
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Post by: ahzek
Quick question (Apologies if it's been answered, in couldn't see it in the FAQ), can I post a link to my ebay account in my trade thread as well as the items I'm selling direct?
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Post by: filbert
Yes
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