A thread discussing what we want in CSM codex 5th edition.

I want legion rules, none crazy dreads, plague marines should get a 3+ FNP, khorne berzerkers need rending, thousand son need to be replaced with a better tzeench cult troop, some LR variations, vehicles which are unique to chaos, cheaper marks, better special characters, better phkyic(spel?)powers.

Woah, 3+ FNP on plague marines would be crazy.

Anyway, I'd like to see decent possessed and spawn, rules for individual legios or even just the ability to upgrade characters to one of the 4 main legions.

Things that I feel need to be done:

* Return of the Khorn Chainax
* Remove S&P from Thousand Sons
* MOT on termies give 3+ Inv Save to compete with the absurd Stormshield 3+.
* Dreads reworked
* Spawn reworked
* Possessed reworked
* Abby Points reduced
* More Upgrade options for Chaos Landraiders and increased transport space.
* Lash Limit 0-1 per army
* Legion Specific Upgrades/rules
* Bring back all the old deamons (Greater and lesser)
* Bring back Mutations/Gifts of Chaos
* Bring back the flavor/customability

Just a few off the top of my head.

Plague Marines are strong enough as they are. I don't share your opinion on the strength of the Chaos Psychic Power, Lash of Submission and Warptime are two extremely potent spells.

Thousand Sons could indeed use a points drop (or become stronger), but I don't think they should remove them entirely.

How about we drop this current thing they call a dex and go back to the previous one?
you know, where you had legions, daemons had a use, the rules were great, the army worked well.

JD21290 wrote:How about we drop this current thing they call a dex and go back to the previous one?
you know, where you had legions, daemons had a use, the rules were great, the army worked well.

I agree with this.

Just do a minor tweak to prices in the old one and update the rules to flow with 5th Ed and Bam! Every Chaos player is happy.

I think CSM needs to be re-worked competely for 5th edition.

Plague marines need to be more broken realy, make then 25points a peice and give them 3+ FNP.

Another thing I want is some weapons that only CSM can have and Noise marines need a 6+ FNP cause there dirty bitchs getting horny over pain.

Lord-Loss wrote:

Plague marines need to be more broken realy, make then 25points a peice and give them 3+ FNP.

More broken? As in, more broken then they already are? This is just stupid and makes you look bad, you know that right?

Is it too much to ask for a codex where everything is good? Apparently so in your line of thinking.

Every codex has that broken unit, the best chaos got is Oblits.

Eldar got seer council, Space marines have thunder hammer termies, Guard got marbo.

Here is my obligatory:

Maybe instead of two codex, Daemons and CSM should be in one dex?

I'm also on board for CSM 3.5 being brought to CSM 5.0.

I'll even throw in for LatD.

Lord-Loss wrote:Every codex has that broken unit, the best chaos got is Oblits.

Eldar got seer council, Space marines have thunder hammer termies, Guard got marbo.

And you don't want to stop that cycle at all, do you? That's just sad. Just because every codex has one doesn't mean that's it's justified.

The most broken Chaos has is the Lash Prince.

You thinking that Marbo is broken is fairly confusing.

Thunder hammer Terminators aren't that good, you just kill them all before they get into assault or kill them before they get to hit. Not that hard with Howling Banshees.

If you just want to create another degenerate codex with tons of broken stuff then that's just disappointing.

Well I will get off of my now.

Lets look at this in another light...

Since several GW updates have been on par with what was suggested on Dakka.... Its plain to see that they do visit (at least) these forums to get a feel on how the public currently views the dex.

Would it really be SO hard to make a Chaos Dex that is both 3.5, Includes LATD, and God Specific rules plus Red Coursairs (or however its spelled)???

Espically since Space Marines are the only race these days that seem worthy enough for Codex Spinoff mini-dex's... (Space Puppies, Black Templar, ect ect)

It makes perfect sense and 1 person working over the corse of a month or two could do this.


Are we asking for a broken dex thats nothing but overpowered crap? No. What we are asking is for a codex thats full of Balance, Options, Flavor and fluff. Thats not asking for much.

LL - Can you troll your own thread?

Red Corsairs/Red Scorpions = nice new toys, same ol' marines.

Although the thought of having CSM summon actual flamers would be sweet. . .

Was the current CSM codex released prior to or during 5th?

Current=Prior 5th ed if I remember right... but very close. As in when they were makeing it they most likely had 5th edition in the playtesting area.

Vlad Codex:CSM 5th edition will need to be able to compete well in tourneys vs other 5th codexs.

Plague marines are not broken but a 3+ would make them very very good. But with legion rules you wouldnt be able to take lash Princes with plague marines, so each factions cult troop will need to be strenghed to make up for this.

I may be wrong about this but I have found PMs to be pretty good at their current state, I dont think they need to really be altered. If they need a boost i think the way it was in legions with the 7 man squad gets free Aspiring Champ would give them a boost. But as a deathwing player I hate the fact my SS are a 4++ save in hth while Salamanders and Ultrasmurfs apparently worked together on theirs. So I hate having two sets of rules for a single model.

Yo mamma

Always thought it'd be cool to see chaos beable to corrupt IG and use some of their stuff. Kinda like how Inquisition can have allies with other imperial forces.

Jacksonhighlander wrote:Always thought it'd be cool to see chaos beable to corrupt IG and use some of their stuff. Kinda like how Inquisition can have allies with other imperial forces.

LATD.......

sacred number squads get free champions.

nurgle marines should have bolters that have poison rounds (wound on a 4+) strikes me as odd how the plague god doesn't let his troops really spread plagues.

khorne berserkers should have chainfists available as options.

obliterators should be toughness 5, 4+ invulnerable, 2 wounds. current weapon loadout is fine.

I would like to see more variants of the chaos vehicles - but more chaosy options (like giving vehicles marks like we used to).

Fast options need a few tweaks - or just a couple of points off. It would also be a great place for some daemons/LaTD options (discs of tzeen? Chaos Sentinels?).

DP's need to be able to take more wargear - at a minimum a Deamon weapon. (oh yeah, Khorne DW needs a change).

I would not like to see it move away from space marine focus however, I like the 'flavour' of the current codex - its just a little too simple. The old codex was criticised because it had a lot of wargear that was 'invisible' and was way complex. They shot too far on the side of simplification this time, they need to come some of the way back, but not all the way.

Oh yeah - some characters who provide bonuses to their units.

Better HQ's: current Hq's are a little weak. a demon prince able to take a demon weapon would be a good start. a two wound hq choice would be good. lords need to get the real bonus's for the mark. so feel no pain and +1 toughness for nurgle and +1 ws +1 attack and furious charge for khorne. undivided be a mix of all 4 +1 toughness +1 attack +1 int +1 inv save.

elites:
again marks = not icons. so marked chosen become chosen berzerkers.
possessed abiltities are rolled before battle + real marks
dreadnaughts shoot closest enemy unit if no enemies they shoot friendlies
termis get real marks again.

troops
csm + real marks done

fast
raptors and bikers can get real marks
spawn gets a 5+ inv and marks

heavy
defiler get boosted to to grinder AV
obilts ok as they are
havocs need something?
mutated hull would be nice

allies
1 hq 1 elite 3 troops 1 fast 1 heavy from the demon book.

Lord-Loss wrote:Vlad Codex:CSM 5th edition will need to be able to compete well in tourneys vs other 5th codexs.

Plague marines are not broken but a 3+ would make them very very good. But with legion rules you wouldnt be able to take lash Princes with plague marines, so each factions cult troop will need to be strenghed to make up for this.

the current CSM book is very competitive. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Also, Plague Marines are already phenominal. There is absolutely no reason what so ever that they should become even better. If ANYTHING, the current Plague Marines should be used as the benchmark for updating units like Thousand Sons so that they are more useful and points efficient.

Add the following to my list:

* Take away the stupid on a 1 the Deamon weapons attacks the user Bs.... (at least on characters like Abaddon)
* Unit God Specific Numbers that if taken will give you a free Champion since we dont get free weapon upgrades like SM do
* Bring all special character costs more in line with recent codex prices (aka lower most of them)
* Better Psychic Defence (hood?)
* More ranged AT options
* Some type of IFV.... (razorbacks?)
* Option to take skill upgrades for Troops. After all they have been fighting for how many thousands of years?
* No "roll the dice before each game to find out what skill you have" Bs

jp400 wrote:* Lash Limit 0-1 per army

Arbitrary limits are a bad way to write rules. If something is overpowered like Lash then you can do a few things:

1. Increase its cost.
2. Decrease its ability.
3. Remove it completely.

Never a combination of those though (reducing ability while increasing cost is what GW does, and it makes for gakky units). In the case of Lash, the best option is removing it completely. Limiting it to 0-1 makes about about as much sense as the 0-1 limit on Tyrant Wings. In other words it doesn't.

Good Point HBMC.

Since we're in the proposed rules:

Should Marked units only be able to summon daemons of their mark?

And if you go with MoCU, what daemons should you be able to summon?

Uriels_Flame wrote:Since we're in the proposed rules:

Should Marked units only be able to summon daemons of their mark?

And if you go with MoCU, what daemons should you be able to summon?

MoCu= ability to summon any daemons.
Marked units summon daemons of their mark.
IMO that's how it should be.
As for what I'd like to see in codex:CSM 5th ed, Legion list,god specific deamons,god specific greater deamons.

If we get legion rules in C:CSM 5th edition then people cant take Lash Princes with Plague marines, they cant mix and match gods to create the most effective build.

That means that each cult troop needs to get a bit better.
Basically each god needs to be able to play competitively.

Khorne marks should give WS +1 and furious charge, nurgle gives FNP etc.

But will that be enough to make each faction competitive enough for tourney play?

Question: Basically how are people meant to make competitive chaos lists without mixing gods?

Answer: Make each Cult troop a bit better and add cultist and some legion persific vehicles.

If we get legion rules in C:CSM 5th edition then people cant take Lash Princes with Plague marines, they cant mix and match gods to create the most effective build.

That means that each cult troop needs to get a bit better.
Basically each god needs to be able to play competitively.

Khorne marks should give WS +1 and furious charge, nurgle gives FNP etc.

But will that be enough to make each faction competitive enough for tourney play?

Question: Basically how are people meant to make competitive chaos lists without mixing gods?

Answer: Make each Cult troop a bit better and add cultist and some legion persific vehicles.

i'm not a chaos player but i've read the codex many times really all i'd do is lower the points of your troops thousand sons ' noise marines i'm quite keen on a noise marine army'

now i also wanted everyone to think like GW chaos has eveything pre heresy the reason chaos don't have the means to make eg redemeers no plans no forgeworlds' sure they may steal one in a unusual victory over the space marines but it would be destoryed in battles very soon after as you notice chaos doesn't keep it's toys very well preserved so why should they get new ones this last part is a joke for those of you which are now going to rant at me

will be interesting to see what happens with chaos though i mean after space wolves nids dark eldar and crons it a choice between tau eldar and chaos i'd guess tau chaos then eldar also if daemons and chaos got put into one dex i would rage and demand daemon hunters and sisters be put on the same dex with a little flavor of imperial guard thrown in

sorry about grammer ill edit my mistakes on my pc at home (usiing phone for this)

What Do you want In Codex:CSM 5th edition?

Codex:CSM 3.5th edition.

Ripister@Chaos doesnt need marine LR variations it needs unique LR variations.

Lord-Loss wrote:Ripister@Chaos doesnt need marine LR variations it needs unique LR variations.

No,no it doesn't,if they did then whats the point in even spliting the line between marine or chaos marine ?.

The fact is Chaos are broken enough as it is,i hardly think GW will do this at all.

Also theres been a rumor going around around 2011 they'll be a chaos legion book so you can have all your fancy game breaking rules again,but as for your hopes for a new chaos book altogather it doesn't look like it's coming anytime soon.

Some unique to Chaos LR variations would be interesting,perhaps some mark specific variations/opptions such as cloud of flies for Nurgle vehichels.
What ever the content of the next CSM codex,I can only hope it is a far cry from the bland,boring unimaginitive mess that exist now.
Oh,did I mention Legion list...once again that's Legion list.

Farmer wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:Ripister@Chaos doesnt need marine LR variations it needs unique LR variations.

No,no it doesn't,if they did then whats the point in even spliting the line between marine or chaos marine ?.

The fact is Chaos are broken enough as it is,i hardly think GW will do this at all.

Also theres been a rumor going around around 2011 they'll be a chaos legion book so you can have all your fancy game breaking rules again,but as for your hopes for a new chaos book altogather it doesn't look like it's coming anytime soon.

Im not sure I understand what your saying.

I said we need some LR variations unique to CSM and not copying marines LR's.

How is CSM: Legion Broken, the current codex is a peice of gak, rule and fluff wise.

Are Khorne Berzerkers meant to be with Tzeench sorcerors? Are Plague maines meant to be with Lucius the Eternal?

No its unfluffy and crap, we NEED legion rules.

I disagree - Abby has united the legions many many times - not just the 13 black crusades, but continuously and constantly in smaller, minor skirmishes.

To think that no-one else in the eye of terror is capable of stringing together some co-operation is a bit shortsighted.

Everything is there to allow you to add your own restrictions, if you dont want to play Zerkers with 1ksons, thats fine, dont. I dont think this aspect of the codex needs to change.

Of course, thats my personal opinion only! Cheers

Realy?

Abby has united WE, NL, IW, BL so far. I dont think EC have been involved in the 13th black crusade and neither have TS.

darkkt wrote:I disagree - Abby has united the legions many many times - not just the 13 black crusades, but continuously and constantly in smaller, minor skirmishes.

To think that no-one else in the eye of terror is capable of stringing together some co-operation is a bit shortsighted.

Everything is there to allow you to add your own restrictions, if you dont want to play Zerkers with 1ksons, thats fine, dont. I dont think this aspect of the codex needs to change.

Of course, thats my personal opinion only! Cheers

What bothers me isn't the mish mash armies so much,if one choses to mix lash and Pms and what have you,and justify it with " there a mixed co-op warband" so be it,it's that persons army and his/her right to do what he/she want's.
What bugs me is the lack of Legion list for those of us who wish to play pure Death Guard or World Eaters or Word Bearers Or what have you,these opptions no longer exist for us,there are no more plauge terminators,there are terminators wit MON...not the same thing,there are no longer Blood thirsters,there are Greatet generic daemons,there is in fact huge holes in playing any legion which have to be filled with "counts as" or by taking a non-specific stand in and giving it a particular mark.
So no,I have no problem with players taking any list they chose,but as somone who want's to play a specific Legion,I'd like the opption of Legion list

Farmer wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:Ripister@Chaos doesnt need marine LR variations it needs unique LR variations.

No,no it doesn't,if they did then whats the point in even spliting the line between marine or chaos marine ?.

The fact is Chaos are broken enough as it is,i hardly think GW will do this at all.

Also theres been a rumor going around around 2011 they'll be a chaos legion book so you can have all your fancy game breaking rules again,but as for your hopes for a new chaos book altogather it doesn't look like it's coming anytime soon.

Your kidding right? The current Codex is FAR from being Broken, and as already stated they are gak both rules and fluff wise.

4th Edition:
10 chaos players enter a FLGS TO.... Every players list is Unique and different in every way shape and form from units on the table, to alignment, to paint job. On one side you have a Iron Warrior Army with Bassies pounding away at the enemy while on the other side of the room you have Kharn leading Khorn Zerkers wielding chain ax's in a Rhino rush, while in the middle you have a icon daemon bomb army Deep strikeing into enemy lines..

5th Edition:
10 Chaos players enter a FLGS TO..... Dual Lash, Plague Marines, and Oblits spam the battlefield.

*YAWN!*

I know most people might disagree, but maybe trying to make Chaos not so random. Some random elements are fine but it's nice being able to know exactly what abilities a unit will have or what will happen when you charge in CC.

Different Land Raider variants

Legion specific lists, that can be competitive

Well, we all remember the CSM codex 3.5 that shows how the current codex can be redone.

First of all, I think that there must be a way to integrate Chaos Daemons into a CSM army to some limited extent.

Farmer wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:Ripister@Chaos doesnt need marine LR variations it needs unique LR variations.

No,no it doesn't,if they did then whats the point in even spliting the line between marine or chaos marine ?.

The fact is Chaos are broken enough as it is,i hardly think GW will do this at all.

Also theres been a rumor going around around 2011 they'll be a chaos legion book so you can have all your fancy game breaking rules again,but as for your hopes for a new chaos book altogather it doesn't look like it's coming anytime soon.

Also Chaos can make some sick lists already, I think i played my friend with a 1000 point nidzilla. he must have had 10+ ap2 weapons I was lucky to win

and you gotta remember if chaos are made broken like 3rd edition. I know i won't play you in a friendly, at a tournament most would start playing chaos and making chaos too good means there is no point in collecting loyalist marines which is so far away from what GW what to do.

One way to get Chaos Daemons into a CSM army could be like this:

0-1 HQ
0-2 Elite
0-2 Troops as non-mandatory
0-1 FA
no HS

If the CSM army wants to induct Daemons, all CSM units must be unmarked or warship one Chaos God.
The inducted Daemons must then warship the same Chaos God, too.

For instance, an Emperor's Children army can only induct Daemons warshipping Slannesh, but no other.

Or just put Daemons back in the Codex, like they were before and like they had been ever since their inception.

Let's talk about Cult-Specific Vehicle upgrades for a second here. My groups been badgering me to get some more Chaos-y vehicle upgrades going for our Codex, so I'm open to suggestions?

Anyone got any good ideas?

Let's talk about Cult-Specific Vehicle upgrades for a second here. My groups been badgering me to get some more Chaos-y vehicle upgrades going for our Codex, so I'm open to suggestions?

Anyone got any good ideas?

First of all, one could rethink about the cult-specific vehicle upgrades from the CSM codex 3.5.

One funny note: coruscated flames for Tzeentch vehicles had S6 in the German translation in the codex.
In a tournament, the Genestealer brood charging a Predator with that upgrade died during assault.

lol, all these replies all seem to want to change choas to Marines. You want the power of marines with elder/DE types of bonuses...be happy with the current marks, and stop trying to make CSM all powerful. I've read alot of "equivalent" subjects, IE Land raider... Crap i think that the landraider should be SM only, and maybe add armour to the defilier. The CSM are the most diverse army, you get cool stuff like oblits and Defiliers and the best troop choices in the game. and you all complain about not having a reedemer/crusader equivalent? Choas are a good and competative army, maybe its not the army, maybe it is the general? Also, everyone has to take in consideration that GW is dulling down all the options and rules for the game SM chapter traits...I miss you), so good luck getting special nurgle army rules.

So in conclusion everyone needs to stop being selfish, codex choas is still one of the top codex. My ranking is ig,ork,sm,CSM, Eldar, then the rest.

Well, the Chaos Land Raider is an old machine when compared with the newer Redeemer and Crusader.
The machine spirit works in a different way.
I'd leave the CSM Land Raider as it is.

I want!

My legion back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Liquidice281 wrote:So in conclusion everyone needs to stop being selfish, codex choas is still one of the top codex. My ranking is ig,ork,sm,CSM, Eldar, then the rest.

1. This is a proposed rules forum where rules are proposed. Did you miss that?
2. Mostly everyone here has acknowledged that Chaos in their current form are powerful. You only have to read the thread to understand. Did you miss that?
3. Mostly everyone here also agrees that, despite its power, the current Chaos Codex is boring, and we want a return to the previous style where all our Legions were distinct, full of flavour, and had options to make them interesting. Did you miss that?

Liquidice281 wrote:lol, all these replies all seem to want to change choas to Marines. You want the power of marines with elder/DE types of bonuses...be happy with the current marks, and stop trying to make CSM all powerful. I've read alot of "equivalent" subjects, IE Land raider... Crap i think that the landraider should be SM only, and maybe add armour to the defilier. The CSM are the most diverse army, you get cool stuff like oblits and Defiliers and the best troop choices in the game. and you all complain about not having a reedemer/crusader equivalent? Choas are a good and competative army, maybe its not the army, maybe it is the general? Also, everyone has to take in consideration that GW is dulling down all the options and rules for the game SM chapter traits...I miss you), so good luck getting special nurgle army rules.

So in conclusion everyone needs to stop being selfish, codex choas is still one of the top codex. My ranking is ig,ork,sm,CSM, Eldar, then the rest.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Liquidice281 wrote:So in conclusion everyone needs to stop being selfish, codex choas is still one of the top codex. My ranking is ig,ork,sm,CSM, Eldar, then the rest.

1. This is a proposed rules forum where rules are proposed. Did you miss that?
2. Mostly everyone here has acknowledged that Chaos in their current form are powerful. You only have to read the thread to understand. Did you miss that?
3. Mostly everyone here also agrees that, despite its power, the current Chaos Codex is boring, and we want a return to the previous style where all our Legions were distinct, full of flavour, and had options to make them interesting. Did you miss that?

What he said......

PLUS.......
"My ranking is ig,ork,sm,CSM, Eldar, then the rest..."
Are you kidding me? Just cause you get a new codex DOESNT mean that your army is the most broken list to date. Ig are in no way shape or form THE best army in 40k and if you honestly think that then you need to get out of your basement and actually play in a TO.

Also Chaos 3.5 is considered by most the best codex chaos ever had. In my eyes they never should have done the overhaul that they did. Id say over 3/4 our codex was either chopped, Nerfed, or limited beyond practical use. If you think chaos is "the most diverse army" now find a copy of the old codex. You will crap your pants at the fluff and flavor that they cut out.

Some people (like yourself) whine that 3.5 was utterly broken and that if brought back everyone would play it. Gee, kinda like how everyone now is playing guard, and before that Spaz marines, and before that orks...... See a trend here?

Also back then not everyone played Chaos.... in fact (At least around here) less play it now then before cause people didnt want to rebuy their entire army cause its no longer legal or spend months converting it over to something playable. So howcome if it was SO broken and all powerful more people didnt play it? Hmmmmm?

Now sit down, Shut up and let the big boys discuss our thoughts about what WE would like to see in the 5th edition codex. Dont want to add anything CONSTRUCTIVE to that? Then do us all a favor and stay out of this thread.

I would love to see two lists in one codex. One being a legion specific codex with all the heresy era stuff, things like cyclone missile launchers for terminators, old school land speeders and the return of retinues. Cult armies tailored so that they aren't ridiculously overpowered. I don't want a return of the chainaxe for khorne berserkers as I thought it was stupid that space marines can ruin a loyalists day whether they were in terminator or power armour but when it came to punting guard in the face they did nothing to them. If they were going to do something like that then have a -2 to ALL saves that way it doesn't feel like a marine killing weapon any more.

The second list should be a renegade list like the marine codex but obviously they would have the marks of chaos to go with them and daemon weapons. Why the chaos codex thought that renegades shot all their apothecaries and techmarines, melted down all their landspeeders and attack bikes, handed in their assault cannons, storm bolters etc is beyond me.

Lastly i want chaos lords that are the equal if not better then a chapter master, with the option of being a psyker again, bring back lieutenants and have sorcerers as a captain and librarian equivalent. That way people can do renegade armies like the Soul Drinkers. I don't condone it, thought the books were rubbish but the colour scheme is good and people can have that option in their army. I just want an army that is a lot more flexible. I miss the old codex a lot...

Well, considering that Demons are now an "army" of their own, I don't think we'll see them return in the next book. But removing them wasn't the only bad thing that happened to the army.
What I really want is to play specific legion without compromising (too much). The main problem regarding this in CSM 4.0 is, that there is a difference between plague marines and marines with the mark of Nurgle, which I personally find to be pretty stupid. The same applies to any other cult choice. Why can't I have 'zerker Terminators or biking noice marines?

jp400 wrote:5th Edition:
10 Chaos players enter a FLGS TO..... Dual Lash, Plague Marines, and Oblits spam the battlefield.

except the one person who plays to have fun and brings fluffy/fun list and gets slaughtered

please note all references to fun are my own personal preference

Some form of cultists would be good, maybe not full blown traitor guard, but like the ALpha Legion used to get maybe?

The people who are saying the current dex is fine obviously never have played CSM 4.0 and have not felt our pain.

Maybe before you say CSM shouldnt have LRs you shoud read some fluff and stop speaking out of your arse.

Storm of Iron is great for CSM fluff, Hammer of Deamon for some info on how the Eye of Terror works.

The Horus Heresy books are great to get an understand of how space marines work in warfare.

Or they played the 3.5 Chaos Space Marine Codex and thought it sucked. You know, either/or.

I don't think anyone is saying that the codex is fine. It is incredibly bland, boring and tasteless. In fact, I hate the current Chaos codex.

What we are saying, is that you can build a few different competitive armylists from it.

That said, I would strongly prefer to have the awesome flavor, options and character of the v3.5 codex. I think it is easily the best Chaos book written thus far, and certainly also one of the best codexes written yet period. When they redo the currentChaos book, they better go back and a take a long hard look at 3.5. I would love to have legion specific armies that fit their fluff and are fun to play with and against, as well as good armies. The ability to take units of Daemons (though IMO in limited quantities) also really needs to come back. They need to do away with this generic daemon crap that is in the current codex and give us access to the god specific daemons and such.

Actually I think the current Codex is fine: it was what got me back into 40k. It was nice to see a Codex designed without the straightjacket of the official fluff.

Not to say that I wouldn't like to see some changes. Everything can be improved.

I'd like:

Daemon Princes with a similar range of options as the Daemon Princes in Codex: Chaos Daemons, with a similar range of options and upgrades for outfitting Summoned Daemons.

I'd also like to see some streaming options, such as going back to having the character of an army defined by the Mark of its Chaos Lord (Cult troops require a Lord of that mark), and have some streamed upgrades available to the Lord depending on the Mark. Some sort of Lieutenant would be nice too, something like the Space Marine Chaplain and Librarian level characters.

I'd like Chaos Dreadnoughts to have the options of having Power Scourges and Thunder Hammers again, as options like the Ironclad has the option of a Chainfist. Oh, and a Cyclone Missile Launcher instead of the usual Missile Launcher option.

I'd like the Chaos Sorcerer powers to be fiddled around a bit, so they they can enhance units in dangerous ways, like giving Warptime to an entire unit accompanying them at the cost of Gets Hot! or somesuch. A Daemon Summoning power is really desirable, and while the Bolt of Change is nice, Tzeentch could probably do with something more Tzeentch-y for his Sorcerers, like giving them the Changeling's power as a psychic power or something. I have a wishlist thread written up somewhere.

Finally I'd like to see them sort out the differences between Chaos Space Marines (the codex), Chaos Space Marines (including Chaos Space Marines, Havocs, Chosen, and Bikers), and Chaos Space Marine units.

If we dont get a Legion codex in the next three years, im probaly going to start a new army or quit.

Maybe there should be two seperate codexs for chaos.

Renegades: An improved version of the current codex
Legion: With all the legion rules in it with lesser demons from codexemons.

I would like more variation but some of the concerns seem to be to op csm. I have never had to many problems winning tourneys from local to cons with them. My only problem is lack of flexibility.

HBMC:

Chaos Vehicle Upgrades-

Tz = -1 on the damage charts
Kh = Deff rolla equivalent
Ng = Vehicle gets 5+ save vs shooting
Sl = -2 LD Tank shock
MoCU = Make all Chaos Rhino's Open Topped or have the option.

-- Restrict the Lash to a Legion dex only.
-- Make the cult Marines a 0-1 choice each, thus forcing a more fluffy Black Legion army if you are going to claim that that's why Slaanesh is in league with Nurgle for example. Fluff for this would be "if one god's too strong, they'd break off or try to rebel"
-- Do SOMETHING with thousand sons, not sure what. Maybe just reduce their prices, or like someone else said, make the Sorceror be able to buff the whole unit.

For the legion codex:
-- Let you summon daemons of your particular god.

changes I'd like to see, and I don't care if some have been stated before.

1) Better 1ksons. Making the sorceror improve his unit is a GREAT way to do this. Casting warp time so that they re-roll hit and wound rolls? That makes them VERY deadly, and they become better than just basic marines when dealing with terminators, and very deadly to certain MCs too.

2) God-specific daemons

3) Random dreads are fine, but I'd like benefits as well as penalties. The old rule of shoot the closest enemy, or friend if they couldn't see any or were out of range was fine. And if they were unable to shoot, treat it as blood rage instead [instead of just normal], and bring blood frenzy's doubling attacks back! Make it worthwhile!

4) Don't make possession reduce BS, just ignore shaken and stunned. It's an UPGRADE, why does every upgrade for chaos have to have some drawback?

5) Chaos landraider gain the 12-slot transport capacity, still go without machine spirit, but also reduced points cost.

6) Chaos lords make any squad they join fearless.

7) Abaddon regains mastery over his sword, and one terminator squad in his army takes up no force org and is WS5 at some slight increase in points - but he can't leave the squad. Also, the unit he joins is fearless and anyone in his army rerolls all leadership checks - so they don't fail and piss him off.

8) Lucius gets martial pride back, and a daemon weapon.

9) Vehicle god-specific upgrades.

10) Spawn that don't suck [increase squad size limit, give them rending, give them some kind of save, allow outflank, something]

11) Possessed that roll multiple times on their chart, BEFORE deployment, or allow you to pick and choose at a points cost like before.

12) princes need more options, like daemon weapons. Lords should buff the army in different ways depending on purchasable abilities and/or their marks, in addition to making squads they join fearless like stated above - meanwhile, princes don't buff the army, but are combat powerhouses.

13) Poisoned ccw for plaguemarines, bring their plagueknives back!

14) Allow multiple berserkers to upgrade to power weapons instead of just the champion. Or at least berserker chosen.

15) Raptors points reduction, or give them back some sort of special rule - hit and run, DS and assault, reduce enemy LD, Furious Charge, 3 special weapons, keep the enemy in combat, whatever.

16) Reduce bike cost, give back +1 attack for having a chaos bike [for characters as well]

I guess that's it for now....

LATD.......

They fooled me once. They wont fool me again...

Ludovic wrote:-- Restrict the Lash to a Legion dex only.

How does that make any sense?

As I said on the first page, creating arbitrary restrictions is bad rules writing. Why would a Slaaneshi Sorcerer know Lash in one army but not in another?

If something is so powerful (like Lash) that it cannot be balanced via a points increase, and would be worthless with a capability decrease, then the only option is to remove it completely.

Blah...blah..blah.... What I see allot of whining about fluff, and options. One fluff changes, remember RT? Two, options my bleeding eyes, no one took 90% of the option in 3.5 anyway; cause they were gak!

What your really saying is that you want broken options back: like the infiltrating, 12" charging Daemon Prince blitzing on turn 1. I can't believe that some actually mentioned the IW's taking a Bassie...so broken. I suppose you want elite obliterators back, too?

Guys I play chaos...and I don't want 3.5 back. Bringing back the legions and legion specific options is fine. But what I want is them to fix the broken stuff in the current codex. And when I say broken I mean as in not worth taking. Ie: possessed, dreadnoughts, icons, and generic daemons. I don't want Chaos Daemons rolled into Chaos Marines again, but marked daemons would be nice. The daemons in CSM should still not be as powerful as their CD selves. I'd give the Soul Grinder to CSM though, as its really doesn't fit the theme. CD needs more special characters and more resilient Greater Daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ludovic wrote:-- Restrict the Lash to a Legion dex only.

How does that make any sense?

As I said on the first page, creating arbitrary restrictions is bad rules writing. Why would a Slaaneshi Sorcerer know Lash in one army but not in another?

If something is so powerful (like Lash) that it cannot be balanced via a points increase, and would be worthless with a capability decrease, then the only option is to remove it completely.

Or just decrease the range like with Pavane...done.

Hey Sersi - leave this thread right away. Why? You seem to have missed that this is a "proposed rules" forum. If you're happy with the current rules and don't want to propose any - as is the function of this sub-forum - then leave. No one is forcing you to stay and make suggestions.

And dismissing everyone's opinions as nothing but 'whining' is a borderline flame - I could just as easily claim that your post makes you sound like an idiot with no reading comprehension, but won't, because that's a flame - and if you continue to post in this proposed rules thread without proposing any rules you will be reported to our friendly Asian-woman-pic-posting mod staff.

Understood?

Now leave.

Sersi wrote:Blah...blah..blah.... What I see allot of whining about fluff, and options. One fluff changes, remember RT? Two, options my bleeding eyes, no one took 90% of the option in 3.5 anyway; cause they were gak!

What your really saying is that you want broken options back: like the infiltrating, 12" charging Daemon Prince blitzing on turn 1. I can't believe that some actually mentioned the IW's taking a Bassie...so broken. I suppose you want elite obliterators back, too?

Nice strawman there.

If all you are going to do is put words in our mouths then you can kindly feth off.

Plague marines: Get poisened bolters.
Khorne Berzerkers: Get rending
Thousand son: There bolters can glance anything
Noise marines: Get a 6+ FNP

Then legion upgrades for vehicles, maybe a vehicle for each legion, demons from Codex: Demons.

Sersi wrote:Blah...blah..blah....

Nice... Next time read the entire post before posting and sounding like a donkey-cave. Either Post something constructive and ot or kindly STFU.

Also stop putting words in our mouths

I wish the beserkers had a bit more kick and not so much like a more expensive ork boy lol

Uriels_Flame wrote:
Tz = -1 on the damage charts
Kh = Deff rolla equivalent
Ng = Vehicle gets 5+ save vs shooting
Sl = -2 LD Tank shock
MoCU = Make all Chaos Rhino's Open Topped or have the option.

Great.
Well, open topped Chaos Rhinos would be assault vehicles allowing the mounted unit to charge after disembarking.

I'd consider the following options for Chaos Rhinos with MoCU:
- front AV 12 or
- heavy bolter mounted weapon.

Chaos needs to be much more than just Spikey Marines and since Demons porbably won't show up in the book, they need some sort of meat shield. A troop unit of cultists would be enough imo.

Anung Un Rama wrote:Chaos needs to be much more than just Spikey Marines and since Demons porbably won't show up in the book, they need some sort of meat shield. A troop unit of cultists would be enough imo.

Absolutely.

Cultists and Traitors would be fluffy add-ons.

This is what I would like to see:

Chaos lords that arent terrible, have good options and arent over costed.

Non-generic greater demons.

Chosen that are more than just infiltrating marines.

Dreads that dont shoot at my own forces.

Possessed that have the abilities that I want them too.

Cult terminators

A reason to take standard CSM.

More wargear options for cult marines (I miss the plague swords)

Non-generic demons.

Bikes that have decent options and arent horrendously expensive.

Raptors that have hit and run.

God specific vehicle upgrades.

God specific wargear

Legion specific rules, even in the form of special characters.

Most of the items I would like to get have already been mentioned. But for the sake of completeness one more time ( in no particular order ):

- Non-random Possessed.
- Non-generic deamons.
- Skill options for Chosen ( choose and/or pay one USR? ).
- Clarifying the Dreadnought crazy rule.
- Updated transport capacity for LR
- Drop Pods ( "Dreadclaws" ). Seriously, Pod assaults have been the bread and butter of Astartes since the Great Crusade!
- Cult Terminators.
- Options for Chaos Lords to make units Fearless or Stubborn.
- God specific upgrades for units ( including vehicles ).

Drop Pods ( "Dreadclaws" ). Seriously, Pod assaults have been the bread and butter of Astartes since the Great Crusade!

Drop Pods with FW rules would be awesome.

They land in the enemy's shooting phase so that the enemy can target them but hitting them on 6+ only.

Upon landing, in the CSM player's turn, the mounted units can move, shoot, and charge.

Here's a thought. Add cheap troops like cultists and make CSM better and more expensive than regular Marines.

wuestenfux wrote:

Drop Pods ( "Dreadclaws" ). Seriously, Pod assaults have been the bread and butter of Astartes since the Great Crusade!

Drop Pods with FW rules would be awesome.

They land in the enemy's shooting phase so that the enemy can target them but hitting them on 6+ only.

Upon landing, in the CSM player's turn, the mounted units can move, shoot, and charge.

I like this alot. Seems pretty balanced and fair.

jp400 wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Drop Pods ( "Dreadclaws" ). Seriously, Pod assaults have been the bread and butter of Astartes since the Great Crusade!

Drop Pods with FW rules would be awesome.

They land in the enemy's shooting phase so that the enemy can target them but hitting them on 6+ only.

Upon landing, in the CSM player's turn, the mounted units can move, shoot, and charge.

I like this alot. Seems pretty balanced and fair.

These rules are different from the imperial ones.
Think about a unit of Berzerkers able to charge after landing.

These Drop Pods cost about 100 pt.

Yes, it is a nasty combo...

But if that pod gets hit on the way in the squad inside is boned.

wuestenfux wrote:
Well, open topped Chaos Rhinos would be assault vehicles allowing the mounted unit to charge after disembarking.

That was the point

CSM = rhino rush - draw back is it's open topped, even with marines in power armor.

40 points to add Assault ramp to a Rhino. As it stands, many armies can out-CC what is supposed to be an elite CC army. 'zerkers need something, like every third one can buy a power weapon, of they have an option to get another one if they're at 8. Plaguers are the only cult troop that is consistently in line with their cost.

Hmm,
I think Assault Ramps on Rhino's would be a little much.. I think the solution is giveing the Zerkers their balls back ala True ChainAx's and or Rending.

Giving Berzerkers power weapons would make them way to expensive, give them rending and rhinos with an assault ramp for 60pts.

The old chainax rules I still think are the best...... Reduce all saves to a 4+. So chargeing them into a squad of termies 2+ becomes a 4+....... Not that it matters with the flipping over the top storm shields now.

jp400 wrote:The old chainax rules I still think are the best...... Reduce all saves to a 4+. So chargeing them into a squad of termies 2+ becomes a 4+....... Not that it matters with the flipping over the top storm shields now.

Have to diagree here. That mechanic was a Bad Idea(tm). We have a CCW that reduces the effectiveness of the toughest protection ( Terminator armour ) known in the game but somehow magically does nothing to lesser armour ( Scout etc. )? Never did see the logic in that. If you want to recreate Khornate Chain-axes, "Rending" is IMHO the way to go.

More Vehicle upgrades:

Tz = Possessed - Flamers have possessed your vehicle. Add Flamer - may use template anywhere from the vehicle.
Kh = Possessed - Overcharge! Vehicle may Tank Shock a unit within 18" while treating terrain as one less (Dif T = no effect, DT = Dif T) (to be used with Khorne Rolla from above)
Ng = Possessed - Auto Hit Str 3 Poison cloud wounds ALL units within 3" without the Mark of Nurgle
Sl = Possessed - All Morale, LD, Stat tests within 12" are made at -1 (in addition to the -1 for a TS unit from my previous post)

Why not just reduce the save by 1 for chainaxe special rule? Although rough on terminators it's not devastating, and it would make them very tough on other assault troops. They don't need assault ramps imo, but I love the idea of the thousand sons being able to glance anything. I think that would really make them worth their points (finally).

I'm not sure about the noise marine 6+ FNP. What about something like a combined frequency attack that uses the large blast template and has a str based on number of models in the squad with sonic weaponry?

MrDrumMachine wrote:Why not just reduce the save by 1? Although rough on terminators it's not devastating, and it would make them very tough on other assault troops.

I assume this was in reply to the Chain-axe question? I am of the school of thought that creating exceptions and special rules just for the sake of, well, exceptions and special rules is bad design. If an existing rule or mechanism can do the work, why not use it?

I guess rending would suffice for zerkers, but since we're just talking about rules that we would like to see I thought that would be an adequate compromise to the original chain axe rule and the current lack of interesting abilities in the book.

To expand on my earlier thought of noise marine combined frequency I was thinking heavy 1 ordenance range: 24' str:* ap:2 where * = number of models with sonic weaponry. Not too overpowered (i think?) but interesting and fun.

jp400 wrote:

Jacksonhighlander wrote:Always thought it'd be cool to see chaos beable to corrupt IG and use some of their stuff. Kinda like how Inquisition can have allies with other imperial forces.

LATD.......

Word. use the opportunity to get freaky with chaos and not just codex angry marines.

Its been said before but I would simply LOVE to see the next CSM dex include Legion rules, Daemons, and LATD all rolled into once fluffy dex thats oozes flavor.

jp400 wrote:Its been said before but I would simply LOVE to see the next CSM dex include Legion rules, Daemons, and LATD all rolled into once fluffy dex thats oozes flavor.

If this codex is released,I may never complain about anything GW does ever again...maybe.

FITZZ wrote:

jp400 wrote:Its been said before but I would simply LOVE to see the next CSM dex include Legion rules, Daemons, and LATD all rolled into once fluffy dex thats oozes flavor.

If this codex is released,I may never complain about anything GW does ever again...maybe.

It better have "WE ARE LEGION!" in big letters on the front and it will be awesome.

Lord-Loss wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

jp400 wrote:Its been said before but I would simply LOVE to see the next CSM dex include Legion rules, Daemons, and LATD all rolled into once fluffy dex thats oozes flavor.

If this codex is released,I may never complain about anything GW does ever again...maybe.

It better have "WE ARE LEGION!" in big letters on the front and it will be awesome.

That would kick major arse.

Lord-Loss wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

jp400 wrote:Its been said before but I would simply LOVE to see the next CSM dex include Legion rules, Daemons, and LATD all rolled into once fluffy dex thats oozes flavor.

If this codex is released,I may never complain about anything GW does ever again...maybe.

It better have "WE ARE LEGION!" in big letters on the front and come with a signed apology for the previous CSM codex,then.. it will be awesome.

Fixed your post
Seriously,A CSM codex that included Legion rules(including Legion vehicles),Daemons that arn't bland, boring, generic, shadows of their former selves AND LATD, would possiably be THE perfect CSM codex,now if we could only find a way of convincing GW of this.

Screw an apology!

I think all the CSM players of Dakka should get five minutes each with a tied up Jervis in a sound proof room *Cracks Knuckes*

Five?

I know how to waterboard! lol

Give me 30 seconds!

In our rules, Heavy Close Combat Weapons (like Chainaxes) are a -1 to the armour save. They affect everyone, rather than that bizare and arbitrary 4+ nonsense that we got form the original Choppas.

Hmm,
Id be happy with -1 across the board.

Does anyone else think that it would be flipping awesome if the Noise Marine Blastmaster's high power frequency drew a straight line and anything in its path took a hit? Maybe 24" inches or something, but dang, that would be seriously sweet.

I can even imagine what it would look like. Awesome.

To expand on my earlier thought of noise marine combined frequency I was thinking heavy 1 ordenance range: 24' str:* ap:2 where * = number of models with sonic weaponry. Not too overpowered (i think?) but interesting and fun.

I'd suggest 24'', S *, AP D6 or D3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Does anyone else think that it would be flipping awesome if the Noise Marine Blastmaster's high power frequency drew a straight line and anything in its path took a hit? Maybe 24" inches or something, but dang, that would be seriously sweet.

Better 48''.
Any unit in the path gets D6 hits of strength D6 (or D3) incl. a pinning test.

Real CHOAS Marines not 'Renegade' Marines.

i.e Legions

Land Raider dedicated transports for Zerkers imo

grimz wrote:Land Raider dedicated transports for Zerkers imo

I guess that this will not happen.
Termies can get those transports but not Berzerkers.
One option would be Drop Pods played according to FW rules as said above.

Master Llyons wrote:Real CHOAS Marines not 'Renegade' Marines.

i.e Legions

CHOAD Marines!

I just had an Idea, upon the relase of Codex: CSM Legions they should release four megaboxs.

One for Khorne, One for Slaanesh, One for Nurgle and One for Tzeench.

H.B.M.C. wrote:In our rules, Heavy Close Combat Weapons (like Chainaxes) are a -1 to the armour save. They affect everyone, rather than that bizare and arbitrary 4+ nonsense that we got form the original Choppas.

It might have been a bizzare rule when they introduced it with the 3rd edition choppas, but the look on a marineplayer's face when you tell him his terminators only have a 4+ save was priceless


To be honest, at this point I could live with a CSM book without Demons (they're the ones who got the short end of the stick anyway), but I'd like to see the Legions done right. I said it before, the "every unit has to get a mark"-rule in 3.5 was complicated, but at least every unit got the same out of it. Now I have Plague Marines and not-really-plague marines, which is just stupid.
Is it too much to ask that every CSM unit can get certain marks and then come with the appropriate gear and rules?

btw. what do you guys think about "uncharacteristic" combinations like bikes of Nurgle and devastators of Khorne. Should they be possible?

*stares at his 2nd Edition Chaos Codex*

*cries*

If only they "5th-ized" that book, my life would be complete.

They could always just give everything Fleet or Scout. Ya know, just cuz.

Anung Un Rama wrote:

btw. what do you guys think about "uncharacteristic" combinations like bikes of Nurgle and devastators of Khorne. Should they be possible?

I'm of the train of thought that if you play a particular legion,you play with that legions handicaps as well as it's benifits,if you start playing Khorne armies with loads of devastators and such, then you might as well just be playing lash/PM/oblit.
To me part of a Legions draw is it's flavor and character,so for myself,I'd avoid "uncharateristic" builds.

C'mon kids - you're all so vocal about changing the Chaos Codex here, so why do I feel like a lone voice in the wilderness here.

Past threads on this topic has shown me that there are quite a lot of people who agree with me about the Chaos Codex, and very few people - usually John, Nurgy, a few newer members and anyone who starts a post with 'I never played the old Codex but...' - so being the one voice of reason in there (not to toot my own horn too much...) is quite odd.

So sound off all'a'ya.

That's pretty much the crux of the discussion isn't it? What people want in the next Codex: Chaos Space Marines is their own way, not other people's way.

I for one love the chaos codex as it is for the most part. Lash should stay the way it is only thing thats really keeping Chaos in the same level as SM and IG clearly the two powerful codex's right now.


few changes:
Lord on bike should make bikes troops
Another fast attack choice like Land speeder
Land raider upgrades
i like the idea of only being able to get lesser daemons of ur mark also maybe a real save then the 5+ inval
Marks lowered alil bit
if nurgle posion rounds that make ur oppenets save +1
+3 FNP for nurgle troops

fluffy yet cheesy legions that make space wolves look like the postergirls they are.

One of the stupidest things I absolutely hate about the 'new' Codex is the way Icons work. If the model in a unit of Chaos Marines is carrying an Icon of Khorne and he dies, why does the rest of the unit magically stop worshipping Khorne (and thus lose their +1A)?

Why are Daemons no longer from a God?
Why aren't there legion rules (even a bloody WD update, something similar to how the Blood Angel codex was done)?
Why aren't there cultists?
Where's my sacred number bonus?
God/Daemonic rivalries? I'm sick of this Nurgle army being led by a Slaaneshi Sorcerer crap.
Where's the option to buy SM gear at increased cost (yes, I want an assault cannon)?
Where'd my fluff go?
Where's the LATD?
Hell where are beastmen!?

I wish they would make Chaos Chaos again. The customizable fluffy army that they used to be.

I mean for newer players who don't know/never experienced the glory that is 2nd (or even 3rd, I guess) Chaos, it's not TOO bad. But it's, IMO, just another army. Chaos used to be special. In fact every army had a very distinct flavour.

I'm also not saying the current Codex is BAD per se, just that it is nowhere near what it could be.

I'm not getting my hopes up for the new codex whenever it comes out... but some things would be nice...

I'd love legion rules aswell, i'd like thousand sons to be better, Havocs to get plasma cannons and multi meltas, Normal troops to get cheaper special and heavy weapons, better elite choices than possesed marines. Khorne bezerkers having the same options as vanguard veterans and rules. MOK give guys WS+1, Frious charge and an extra attack. Introduce chaos servitors and techmarines. Get razorbacks ect. and finally they should reintroduce cultists, get new heroes

What do I want?

I've been thinking about this actually, probably too much but anyways, Chaos needs something to make them fearless, but a nerf to leadership so that there's an incentive for a space marine to drop his bolter and carry what ammounts to a really big close combat weapon that just makes him a giant target. Bessides, these are not 'saviors of mankind' they are greedy space pirates, they SHOULD be afraid, VERY afraid, but with the icon to remind them of their immortality, they should hold together a little bit.

What else do I want, Allegiance, making allegiance separate from the actual icon can open up new possibilities. The way it is now, non-cult marines are fairly useless, if they were fearless with an icon, AND had special abilities that didn't go away when the dude holding the icon died then they might be more useful, and people could have their Iron Warrior armies back, because you can pledge allegiance to a god, or to a chaos legion. (This would also open up neat possibilities, imagine Havoks that furious charged! RAAAGH)

Again, probably thinking too hard, but it's some ideas my brain has been festering.

I never played CSM codex 4.0, ive been playing CSM for two years and released the codex was a peice of gak like a month after I started the game.

The codex 4.0 was made to simplify army selection.
But what's a bit confusing is that there are Cult units dedicated to some God and CSM units with icons dedicated to some God.
I'd get rid of the latter and give CSM the undivided mark or IoGC.

It would just be nice if the doex felt more..Fluffy. On a competitive level its great but for those who are more about the fluff and feel of the army its just soo lacking..underwhelming... Yes you can have the cult tropps which dont get me wrong is great. But thats really all your getting is the cult troops. No special rules or any neat toys and tricks. Really I think the last codex was great outside of the cheese iron lists you could make. And really since now oblits are heavys. They wouldnt be any harder to deal with then IG is now.

Some interesting ideas in this thread.

I will be releasing a Death Guard codex after Space Wolves which players will like hopefully with some new units and rules

some things i would like to see

HQ
most of the HQ set ups are nice
Sorcerer
Lord

Should both be fear less and Require a Mark of a God

Spells / add a defensive spell like Hood?

Troops

KB's are good maybe make them a couple more points higher and give them fleet?

1k sons remove Slow And P ? or drop their points by 2 and keep Slow and P?

Plague marines look good maybe a point or two drop?

Empires Children. points look good maybe add a couple Blast masters make a limit like 3?


Elite
Fix possessed. allow the ability to roll before rolling for deployment?
Termi's they need fearless they should not be scared to die!
Drop points a little bit make it close to SM's the Mark is what sends them over the top. A couple more weapons would be nice

chosen look ok. a couple point drops would be nice

Dreadnought make it choose a god.
Khorne (it keeps frenzy gets 2 more attacks and +1 Int (can only be CC weapons)
Nurgle +1 to the AV normal weapons no Lazcannons
Slan (gets Sonic blaster and blastmaster) +1 int
Tzee gets auto cannon -ap 3 and assult cannon ap3
It has to have a mark.

Fast attack
Meh.. they need personal icons and fearless
Drop 50% of the spawn price?
Add lesser demons to this possibly?

Heavy OK meat and Potato's

Oblitorators need a Mark?
price drop by 5 points Why with T4 they can be one shot marks can give them either +1 t or extra inv save. not bad
allow to have 4 -5 per squad? keep slow and P. if we can have 5 maybe keep the 75 point cost. these models are $22 bucks a piece they getting one shot is fething dumb

Defiler why does he have int 3? it should be 4 keep WS 3 and Demonic possessed drop points a little bit maybe 10 -20?

Havoc's hmm they seem ok when i use them. fearless is needed price drop by 1-2 points would be better. Maybe even a infiltrate for extra points

Land Raider extra weapons configurations would be nice but not needed. price is decent too. i think if you take it Demonic possessed it should be free.

vindicator isnt bad
either is predator
possessed Lemon rusks or other factions would be kool its the same price as their codex NO Squads! but add 20 40 points for Demonic Possessed

IMO

I'm not really a fan of the latest CSM Codex either, having been out of the game for a couple of years. I ended up having to change a lot of things in my army, just to make it comply with rules I'm not even fond of.

Maybe I'm missing it, but it looked like Daemon Princes can't use any wargear aside from a close-combat weapon anymore (I used to be able to use a Daemon Weapon on one, along with a Mark!).

Possessed are really not worth their points anymore, unless you get really lucky on the pre-game roll (which I believe takes place after deployment, not before). Also, not having a ranged weapon of any kind was a blow to me- I had the previous Possessed which all are modelled with Bolt Pistols/Close Combat Weapons. I still haven't remodeled them to remove the pistols, and I don't know if I'll bother. Chosen seem to be a much better use of points, or even Terminators!

Daemons in generally got hit hard. I understand this is partly due to the Chaos Daemons Codex, but I don't like how Greater Daemons all have the same statistics (why on earth would a Lord of Change be as physically capable as a Bloodthirster?), and from the Codex I used to use, it seems that Bloodletters lost their Hellblades/3+ Saves.

Totally agreed on Icon Bearers too. If an Icon Bearer dies, the rest of the squad wouldn't just stop worshipping their God. Does a Nurgle squad's diseases magically clear up once the Icon Bearer dies or something?

While it's not a horrible Codex, I much preferred the one I used to use (which I think was 3rd edition). The latest Codex felt like a lot of the character had been sucked from the army list, and it feels a lot more generic and many models don't have too many options anymore. It'd be great to see the next Codex resolve some of these issues, but we'll see.

cablecing wrote:Dreadnought make it choose a god.
...
Nurgle +1 to the AV normal weapons no Lazcannons.

Why no Lascannon? Other than the fact that that makes the FW Death Guard Dread unplayable, it's also an arbitrary restriction. Arbitrary restrictions = bad rules design.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

cablecing wrote:Dreadnought make it choose a god.
...
Nurgle +1 to the AV normal weapons no Lazcannons.

Why no Lascannon? Other than the fact that that makes the FW Death Guard Dread unplayable, it's also an arbitrary restriction. Arbitrary restrictions = bad rules design.

HAHA just a idea

why not it gets all the other weapons and its front 13. Nice idea. its not 100% going to fly we all know that.

just a idea.
i like it
You dont
no worries

I have no problem with the Nurgle increasing armour thing - that's fine - I just don't see why it comes at the arbitrary loss of the Lascannon.

Why would its armour value affect its ability to get Lascannons any more than any other weapon? It wouldn't - hence arbitrary.

Artibrary rules = Bad rules.

I suppose what I would like new stems from what I dislike about SM(mostly cause I'm sorta jealous). I would like have legion books(or unique rules in 5th edition codex) and be able to dust off old armies for duty again. I'm saying use the old codex stuff either just a fresh revamping like some of the SM chapters.

YAY!! I have been waiting for this thread! WOO!!

Open C:\Rant

Everything - We need essentially the old 3.5 dex. I first played CSM just as 5th came out. I didnt know there was a 4th edition codex and Chaos were awesome. When I found out about the 4th Ed codex I almost cried. Instead of being Chaos Marines who were all chaotic and awesome and customizable with a back story they have become naughty marines with spikes.
They have less options, less weapons, higher costs and worse rules than loyalist SM. Cult troops are great and I love them but again things like Zerkers and NM are now just normal marines with a slightly changed statline. There's no fluff or interest in the codex anymore.
Loyalist SM are looking more and more inviting every day as I keep looking at my friends armies and wondering "Why can't my LRs fit 14 people?" and "Where are my Storm Bolters?" We are now so far behind the loyalists in everything we share and so much worse than we were with everything that is unique to us.
We've lost Daemons (and someone tell me why the HELL we can't ally with them like SM, IQ, WH and DH can?) special legions, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and the rest, no longer is there any sense of fluff. Nowadays you can have a great big zerker army led by 2 Slaaneshi Lash DP. And they'll all have weak marks. Your zerkers can hang back and shoot if you want and your summoned Pink Horrors can run straight into CC albeit not doing very well. Where's the character?
Sure I like chaos and they aren't all bad now, but in no way are they fluffy or as good as their loyalist counterparts.

Close C:\Rant

Madgod wrote:
Loyalist SM are looking more and more inviting every day as I keep looking at my friends armies and wondering "Why can't my LRs fit 14 people?" and "Where are my Storm Bolters?" We are now so far behind the loyalists in everything we share and so much worse than we were with everything that is unique to us.
Close C:\Rant

Yeah, this irritates me somewhat too. Seeing my brother's Dark Angels force more than 10 models into a Land Raider and then not being able to do the same despite having the exact same tank (albeit a little spikier) is stupid.

Upon scanning through the Codex again:
- Thousand Son Aspiring Sorcerers count as Fearless but a full-on Sorcerer as HQ choice isn't?
- I miss my Chainaxe rules from 3rd Edition
- Defilers are Initiative 3? Honestly, looking through the CSM Codex, some of the Initiative Values seem out of place.
- I shake my head whenever I read Abaddon's rule page. I play Black Legion, and I refuse to use Abaddon because I think he's too good.
- Too much emphasis on Huron, rather than any rules for renegades.

It's not just I3 on the Defilers that's insulting, it's the WS3.

So they're as skilled and as fast as Guardsmen?

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's not just I3 on the Defilers that's insulting, it's the WS3.

So they're as skilled and as fast as Guardsmen?

Yeah, it doesn't seem right at all. I understand there's a bound Daemon inside them which would no doubt make them erratic in CC, but having I3 and WS3 really kills them for me. Nothing worse than having one of the largest models on the table go into CC and promptly miss every attack. I don't understand why they're so poor for CC now.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I have no problem with the Nurgle increasing armour thing - that's fine - I just don't see why it comes at the arbitrary loss of the Lascannon.

Why would its armour value affect its ability to get Lascannons any more than any other weapon? It wouldn't - hence arbitrary.

Artibrary rules = Bad rules.

I think he refers to the fact that infantry with MoN can't take heavy weapons (maybe they'll fall apart if they would fire them) but that's exactly the reason why Dreadnoughts need them. Not that I would take them because I'm to afraid they'll fry my own tanks.

Madgod wrote:
We've lost Daemons (and someone tell me why the HELL we can't ally with them like SM, IQ, WH and DH can?) [...]

Because GW says that allies are Apocalypse only these days and the Inquisition books were just a byproduct of the failed Inquisitor tabletop RPG.

Neith..

Abby is good.. however he has a 1-6 chance of killing himself with his own weapon. And compare him to some of the OTT special characters in the newer dex's and he is overpriced in my eyes for what he does.

He also has a 5/6 chance of A6-10 S8 I6 Power Weapon attacks, on the defense. Dude's a buzzsaw. An expensive, diamond-encrusted buzzsaw, but still.

jp400 wrote:Neith..

Abby is good.. however he has a 1-6 chance of killing himself with his own weapon. And compare him to some of the OTT special characters in the newer dex's and he is overpriced in my eyes for what he does.

Yeah, the Daemon Weapon trait of Drach'nyen/Talon of Horus is one downside (the possibility of Wounding himself, not the +D6 attacks!), but aside from that his abilities/statistics are crazy. I don't use him (partly because I don't like how he looks), but also because I think he's too strong. What are the OTT characters you're referring to? I've been out of the hobby for a while and only just started up again, so I'm kind of out of the loop

lol its all good Neith.

Best one off the top of my head is one of the new IG Ic's.. Remember.. he is supposed to be a guardsman.

"Ironhand" Straken
WS:5 BS:4 S:6 T:4 W:3 I:3 A:3 LD:9 SV: 3+
Points: 95

Gung-Ho:
Fearless to him and his unit

Senior Officer:
2 orders at 12'' a turn. Orders list: BID, FOMT, GBITF, FRFSRF, Incomming and move move move!

Cold Steel and Courage:
"Friendly Units within 12'' of Straken have the Counter Attack and furious charge USR. This includes colonel straken and his command squad."

Man Of Adamantium: Attacks Ignore Armour and roll an additional D6 for AP.

He's still a Guardsman: T4 I3, that's a winning combination. He needs all the special rules he can get!

I never got all this hate for Imperial Guard.

They're the most effective fighting force in the entire universe.

Do you know why they are considered "weak"?

Because they've annihilated every other race that has stood in their way.

-rant mode off-

I think it's like Tau and Dark Eldar: they require more skill to use, and most beginners don't have the interest in developing the experience and the skills that follow from the experience, or the pockets to afford a decent army.

My point about the good Colonel is that him having all those special rules simply balances out his mediocre Toughness and Initiative. I mean, Fearless Guardsmen? That's not great: we all know what happens to Fearless Boyz and Fearless Termagants: Fearless hits them as a double-whammy. And Furious Charge on a Guardsman? S4 and I4 - they're almost Marines, except they don't have the WS or the A to exploit it like the Orks. Counter-Attack (Counter-Charge?) requires a leadership test, on Guardsmen mind you, to use successfully. It's all cool and characterful, but nowhere near what he needs to survive an assault by Berzerkers, or Genestealers, or Skyclaws, or Raptors, or Striking Scorpions, and so on.

It's cool that he's got a Power Fist that attacks at I3, but then that's I3. That's the Initiative people complain about Defilers having, that turns Pariahs from an assault unit into something else, that means you attack before Orks and survive, or get buried under an avalanche of Orks. And he's only S6, so the extra D6 is a nice sop to those Imperial Guards watching their tanks get opened by Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons, Avatars, Kharn, and so on.

Something that I really like about the 5th edition is that special rules scale depending on the models using them. Counter-attack is only as good as a unit's Leadership, for example. Fearless is only as good as their armour save. Furious Charge is only as good as WS and A. He needs all those special rules to be a live option, and he is a live option, but it's the combination of his stats with those special rules. Characters like Abbadon don't need heaps of special rules like that because he's already a murder-machine (although it would be nice if CSM Daemon Princes had the options of CD Daemon Prines, for the sake of variety).

Most of this seems is just wishlisting and sounds quite overpowered. Not to mention it's got no chance to fly under the current Jervis setup.

Things like Khornate Chainaxes and Plague Knives are not needed. Zerks and PMs are already unique and powerful enough. They are not problem units in the army. This is just adding rules for rules sake, and Chaos don't need that.

I think we should be looking at how books are done nowadays and trying to get Chaos to that sort of level.

Chad Warden wrote:Most of this seems is just wishlisting and sounds quite overpowered. Not to mention it's got no chance to fly under the current Jervis setup.

Things like Khornate Chainaxes and Plague Knives are not needed. Zerks and PMs are already unique and powerful enough. They are not problem units in the army. This is just adding rules for rules sake, and Chaos don't need that.

I think we should be looking at how books are done nowadays and trying to get Chaos to that sort of level.

CSM strongest stuff is always troops. Marines have stronger Elites, FA, HS and HQ.

We have troops, so we need good troops.
Thousand son are gak and need to be able to glance, Berzerkers need something to make them worth there points, Plague marines are fine, Noise marines dont make sense fluff-wise.

Zerkers: WS5, FC, +1A not enough?
Maybe...........Blood Rage? heh.

Maybe change the rule to be like a 'Waaghh', a single turn where they get fleet?

My 7 Cents.

Lord-Loss wrote:The people who are saying the current dex is fine obviously never have played CSM 4.0 and have not felt our pain.

Nurglitch wrote:Or they played the 3.5 Chaos Space Marine Codex and thought it sucked. You know, either/or.

Or maybe BOTH.

I played CSM under the 3E Rulebook and 3.0 Codex, and have felt at least as much "pain" as you have.

I wasn't impressed by the 3.5 pigeon holes.

I think the current Codex is fine.
____

For the next CSM book, I'd like to see the big 4 characters removed to a Legions book.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
____

For the next CSM book, I'd like to see the big 4 characters removed to a Legions book.

Putting the "big 4 characters" in to a Legions book would be fine,so long as they don't become some sort of mandatory bring along for an army,I don't want to see a variation of the SM codex,in which I'd have to,for example,take Typhus to "unlock" Death Guard options.
I'd simply like to see a Legions book,with wich players can build armies representing chaos legions as they should be represented.

FITZZ wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:For the next CSM book, I'd like to see the big 4 characters removed to a Legions book.

Putting the "big 4 characters" in to a Legions book would be fine,so long as they don't become some sort of mandatory bring along for an army,I don't want to see a variation of the SM codex,in which I'd have to,for example,take Typhus to "unlock" Death Guard options.

Well, how *else* would GW make a Legions army work?

If SM players need to buy Vulkan or whomever else to make their armies work, then you can bet your bottom dollar that CSM Legions will be forced to do the same.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:For the next CSM book, I'd like to see the big 4 characters removed to a Legions book.

Putting the "big 4 characters" in to a Legions book would be fine,so long as they don't become some sort of mandatory bring along for an army,I don't want to see a variation of the SM codex,in which I'd have to,for example,take Typhus to "unlock" Death Guard options.

Well, how *else* would GW make a Legions army work?

If SM players need to buy Vulkan or whomever else to make their armies work, then you can bet your bottom dollar that CSM Legions will be forced to do the same.

That's my point exactly,I think it's a bad idea all together,having to include special characters simply to "unlock" an army is silly IMO,it shouldn't be mandatory for SM armies,nor should it be mandatory for the (hypothetical) Legions codex.

And yet, GW's on an absolute tear with SCs right now.

With GW making redonkulously expensive metal minis that they need to sell, and a player base completely desperate for Legions, why wouldn't GW let the bean counters bend players over?

And how else would GW monetize Legions separate from non-Legions? What, GW's going to take Cult Marines out of CSM? (I guess they could...)

The pain of the wallet-reaming should be soothed by the pleasure of once again having one's very own Legion rules again.

And locking an army to a Special Character is about as distinctive of a rule as GW can imagine.

Honestly John I have to agree with you,given GWs current love affair with special characters,any codex release is bound to be loaded with such rulings.
It's truly disheartning to see how unimaginitive GW is becoming.

Yep. The only thing worse than what we have today is what GW is going to give us tomorrow.

What do I want in the new Chaos codex?

That's easy.

Besides the obvious (mutations and just a better codex)

Chaos Steeds that you can mount your squads on. Even a Chaos Space Marine should be able to ride one. If you want your whole army to ride steeds, so be it.

More interesting daemon weapons.

Bonuses for using sacred numbers.

Once again I must point out that this is a 'proposed rules' forum, so pointing out what GW will or might do is completely pointless.

Something John continues to forget...

Screw an apology!

I think all the CSM players of Dakka should get five minutes each with a tied up Jervis in a sound proof room *Cracks Knuckes*

*Shadowbrand unzips his pant's* *Screams of agony and oh god not the powerfist!!!!*

Shadowbrand wrote:

Screw an apology!

I think all the CSM players of Dakka should get five minutes each with a tied up Jervis in a sound proof room *Cracks Knuckes*

*Shadowbrand unzips his pant's* *Screams of agony and oh god not the powerfist!!!!*

I laughed so much I just pissed myself.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Yep. The only thing worse than what we have today is what GW is going to give us tomorrow.

Again,I agree,when it comes to GW,the suprises (wanted or not) never stop.
However,I would prefer to simply have the option to create my own characters (HQs),rather than have to follow some arbitrary system of "..and If you take Kharn,you then unlock the wonderful world of World Eaters",that in and of itself is simply ridiculous and would defeat the whole purpose of being able to "create" your own Legions background.

But isn't that the point?

C: CSM is about creating your own Traitor Marine force.

C: Legions is picking one specific, predefined, specialized set of rules for the oldest and most canonical Traitor Legions. The Legion background is largely fixed in stone for 4 or 5 Fluff iterations, so the idea people can make their own not-Kharn for a World Eaters Legion Berzerker just doesn't work.

In many ways, C: Legions would be a pseudo-historical list, which is why each list would be so restrictive in terms of what it contains, and why it is structured a certain way.

That is, I would like C: Legions to have a World Eaters list that has a "World Eaters Berzerker" Troops entry that is a fixed cost for *exactly* 8 Berzerkers led by a Champion of Khorne. The Champion and Berzerkers would then have options for Khornate Chain Axes and Axes of Khorne.

The Emperor's Children list would have a Troops entry for "Emperor's Children Marine", with a fixed cost for *exactly* 6 Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters, with options for Doom Siren and Blastmaster.

And so on.

By locking the options down like Eldar Aspects, it becomes very easy for GW to make these lists balanced and chromey.

In many ways, I think that Space Wolves is a predecessor template for coming Chaos Legions, but that's just me guessing ahead of the curve.

While I agree that Legions would of course be predifined to a certian extent,my point is that I don't want to see the " Character X unlocks option Y" spill over in to a Legions book.
for example,one decides to play a World eaters army,the options to take Kharn,create your own Berzerker lord,your own Daemon prince with suitable Khornate wargear and powers should all be there,along with the options to take a mixture of Khorne based elites and troops,as well as heavys.
So one could have an army with a Daemon prince and a Lord,backed by terminators & (functioning) possesd,with lots of berzerkers and bloodletters,some dreadnoughts and defielers..or any other type of variation,still funtioning with in the perimeters of a World Eaters army.
Legions ..but with flexability and options with in the established framework of a chosen set.

The thing is, Berzerker warbands are at least as specialist as any of the other SC-driven armies out there, if not moreso, so a required SC HQ seems pretty obvious.

I think your suggested WE army is about as far as it could go in terms of variety, although I'd swap Possessed for Chosen and add Bloodcrushers & Hounds (remember?):

1 Kharne, MoK DP, MoK Lord
WE Termies, WE Chosen, MoK Dread
WE Berzerkers, Bloodletters
Hounds, Bloodcrushers
MoK Defiler, MoK Land Raider

JohnHwangDD wrote:The thing is, Berzerker warbands are at least as specialist as any of the other SC-driven armies out there, if not moreso, so a required SC HQ seems pretty obvious.

I think your suggested WE army is about as far as it could go in terms of variety, although I'd swap Possessed for Chosen and add Bloodcrushers & Hounds (remember?):

1 Kharne, MoK DP, MoK Lord
WE Termies, WE Chosen, MoK Dread
WE Berzerkers, Bloodletters
Hounds, Bloodcrushers
MoK Defiler, MoK Land Raider

Even though the above list is a fair represintation of most of the choices that would be avalible in a Legions WE list,with the inclusion of rhinos and various khornate war gear and options,there is a multitude of varities in which the units could be assembled,leading to lots of different flavorful combinations all from just the WE list.
Add to this the other "big 3",plus perhaps a variant list to represent Night Lords,Word Bearers,Alpha Legion etc,and a Legions codex could be loaded with variations,which exactly how Chaos should be done.
As for Black Legion and "renegades",they have a perfectly servisable codex now with the current CSM dex.

If the Big 4 go to Legions, that opens space for the MoCU Legions to be addressed in C: CSM.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The thing is, Berzerker warbands are at least as specialist as any of the other SC-driven armies out there, if not moreso, so a required SC HQ seems pretty obvious.

I think your suggested WE army is about as far as it could go in terms of variety, although I'd swap Possessed for Chosen and add Bloodcrushers & Hounds (remember?):

1 Kharne, MoK DP, MoK Lord
WE Termies, WE Chosen, MoK Dread
WE Berzerkers, Bloodletters
Hounds, Bloodcrushers
MoK Defiler, MoK Land Raider

Why do berserker Warbands needs a special Character? The fluff states that after a period of time in the Eye, the World Eater's legion started fighting amongst themselves and seperated into smaller warbands. Now every warband isn't going to have a Kharne now is it? So realistically allowing for customisable generic options and god specific upgrades would be much more servicable then just hitting up more herohammer.

For our Cult Legion's sublists, we're looking along the lines of:

HQ:
Cult-Specific Lord
Cult-Specific Sorcerer Lord (where applicable - obviously Khorne won't have these)
Cult-Specific Lieutenant
Cult-Specific Sorcerer (where applicable)
God-Specific Herald
God-Specific Greater Daemon

Elite:
Cult-Specific Chosen
Legion Veterans (the absolute elite of the elite, the actual 10,000-year-old fought on Terra during the Heresy-style veterans)
God-Specific Elite Daemon (Fiends, Bloodcrushers, etc.)
Cult-Specific Possessed

Troops:
Cult-Specific Marine Squad (eg. Khorne Berzerkers, with all the upgrades from Chaos Marine to Khorne Berzerker factored in)
God Specific Troops Daemons (eg. for World Eaters, it'd be Bloodletters, and so on)

Fast Attack:
Cult-Specific Fast Squad (for World Eaters, it's World Eater Assault Squads with ye olde style Jump Packs, plus World Eater Bikers)
God-Specific Fast Attack Daemons (eg. Flesh Hounds)
God-Specific Spawn (we have rules for all four types of Spawn + Undivided)

Heavy Support:
Cult-Specific Havoc Squad (where applicable)
Various Chaos Vehicles

The idea is to have one or two unique units that only show up in a specific Cult Army list, even if they're an archetype - so World Eater/Death Guard/Emperor's Children Veterans are similar in what place they occupy within the list, but are different units. Coming up with unique units is harder than it seems, and I've only really thought about the World Eaters so far (with their Assault Marines).

Thousand Sons are a different kettle of fish entirely, as there are two sides to the 1KSons - those that stayed with Ahriman, and those that stayed with Magnus.

As for the other Legions, well there's not a huge amount to do with them except make things come as standard - so an Alpha Legionnaire squad would just be a Chaos Marine Squad that has Infiltrate as standard, and the option to buy the MoCU or not. Iron Warriors I'd want to expand, and drag Hellcannons into 40K kicking and screaming as a Daemonic Siege Weapon for IW (Chaos Squat crew?).

Just make them all different, even if the framework behind it is the same.

Winter wrote:Now every warband isn't going to have a Kharne now is it?

Every Marine army has a Vulkan. Every Eldar army has an Eldrad. Every Daemons army has a Fateweaver?

Why should World Eaters, in the era of Jervis, be any different?

Do you change the Mark of Khorne for Havoc Squads? (If it is even available)

Like, make you able to reroll to wound or something?

Well, I want my EC Havocs squad with up to 4 blastmasters back.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Do you change the Mark of Khorne for Havoc Squads? (If it is even available)

Dunno yet. Representing martial prowess with HTH is easy. Representing it in a shooting unit that's already good at shooting could be unbalancing.

It's obvious. Separate lists for the Traitor Legions who fought during the Horus Heresy and those who have turned to chaos more recently, say since the Badab War. The recent renegades could have those icons, to represent their reduced status in the eyes of the Chaos Gods while the Legion marines are more chaotic. However, the Renegades should have access to stuff like Landspeeders and Razorbacks.

And use a spell checker, people. Damn!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Do you change the Mark of Khorne for Havoc Squads? (If it is even available)

Dunno yet. Representing martial prowess with HTH is easy. Representing it in a shooting unit that's already good at shooting could be unbalancing.

Can't you just have it where the Havoc squad is forced to take 8 guys if they want the Mark of Khorne? (This is assuming that this unbalances them)

I suppose you -could- give them a sort of Tankbusta drawback in that they have to fire at the nearest enemy or something but then that might make them stink.

Just a thought of course.

I took the following from my other thread. I looked but didn't see this one before I started the other one.

Ok so I for one was all over the Gav Thorpe web blog last week and I know a lot of forums are popping up like this, but i am jumping on the bandwagon before the train leaves the station. Below I am going to add my fixes, suggestions, additions, etc. which pertain to the contemporary Co: CSM. My Goals is that other dakka readers will then add to my suggestions and by the end maybe someone at GW will have a real nice piece of market research. Its a win-win for all parties. I beg of future posters, please keep all comments and criticisms moving the conversation in a positive direction. It is by all means ok to disagree with someone's ideas but please give a reason why and what change you think would help.

Now, without further ado, my list of Improvements to Co: CSM
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All the following suggestion will be supplanted with the current (as of 2009) Co: CSM as a foundation. It is assumed that if it is not mentioned here that it exists as is and should not be assumed to have been eliminated. Point Costs may in many circumstances require adjusting and no point costs have been provided herein.

I. Co: CSM may ally with Co: Chaos Deamons
.....A) I have not worked out the limitations here or how they will enter play to keep it from being

II. Special Characters and HQ choices
.....A) No changes to Special Character Typhus, Ahriman, Kharn, Lucious, Fabius or Huron as they all have legion specific troop choices at their disposal or have general access to the entire Codex and such additions to their profiles are quite unnecessary given the nature of Co: CSM.
.....B) Special Character Abaddon the Despoiler
..........1) Inspiring Presence: All friendly units within 12” of Abaddon receive +1 Attacks whilst he lives. this bonus does not apply to Abaddon nor does it stack with similar bonuses.
.....C) HQ: Dark Apostle (Word Bearers Special Character)
..........1) Comparable war gear to Co: SM Chaplain
..........2) Provides +1 to every summoning roll
..........3) Concerning Possessed CSM, player may re-roll the results of the Possession Table but must use the second outcome.
..........4) Entire force is granted the “Fearless” USR
.....D) HQ: Warsmith (Iron Warriors Special Character)
..........1) Comparable war gear to Co: SM Master of the Forge
...............a) No Conversion Beamer
..........2) Makes Basilisk Tanks available Heavy option
...............a) (1-3); squadrons not permitted
..........3) One additional Heavy Slot may replace an Elite Slot on the FOC
..........4) Entire force is granted “Stubborn” USR
.....E) HQ: Talon Master (Night Lords Special Character)
..........1) Entire force is granted the following USRs:
...............a) “Hit and Run”,
....................i) I have heard strong arguments in favor of "Stealth" over "Hit and Run" see this needs fleshing out
...............b) “Night Vision”, and
...............c) “Move Through Cover”
..........2) Optional Jet Pack
..........3) Forces led by NLSC may not take any Marks or Units which are specific to a Ruinous Power. Only Followers of Chaos Undivided are permitted.
.....F) HQ: Stealth Leader (Alpha Legion Special Character)
..........1) Gift of Prescience: If your army contains ALSC, you can choose to re-roll any reserve rolls- even successful ones.
..........2) Any unit ALSC attaches to gains the “Out Flank” USR
..........3) A roll to “steal the initiative” by controlling player is successful on a D6 roll of 5+.
...............a) This could be simplified to the Co: SM version whereby the "steal the initiative" roll may be re-rolled once...
.....G) Lords, Sorcerors, Deamon Princes
..........1) Full layout of war gear options will be made available to these generic HQ choices
..........2) Demon weapons, wings/jetpacks, bikes, marks, icons, combi weapons, armor, etc. etc. will be optional for all
..........3) Demon Princes are (0-1)
.....H) HQ Retinues
..........1) Chosen may be taken as HQ retinue. Chosen may be upgraded with terminator armor (Terminator Asp. Champs) if HQ is donning terminator armor.

III. Currently Existing Unit Changes
.....A) Dreadnaughts
..........1) Eliminate Dreadnought table
..........2) New War Gear
...............a) Seismic Hammer
...............b) Extra Armor
..........3) Marks specific war gear
...............a) Slaanesh: Sonic Weaponry (dirge castors, sonic blasters etc)
...............b) Nurgle: Nurgling distractions (Eliminates charge bonus like defensive grenades)
...............c) Khorne: Rending Chain Fists (this may not be as helpful since rending was nerfed)
...............d) Tzeetch: Twin-linked heavy bolters with inferno bolts
.....B) Possessed CSM
..........1) Lower points
..........2) roll on the table PRIOR to deployment.
..........3) may take marks as well
.....C) CSM Bikers
..........1) Chaos Biker Shock Upgrade (representing the affect of all those bike mounted blades)
...............a) Works similarly to Tank Shock however the maneuver occurs in the assault phase and all normal actions may be taken prior to it. If you turbo boost in the movement phase then you may not Biker Shock.

IV. New/Additional War Gear Options
.....A) Bionic Limbs/Mutations: +1 WS
.....B) Chain Axes: +1 S
..........1) Note: Will be already included in Berserker profile as chain axes are their weapon of choice and so as to avoid over powering them.
.....C) Collar of Khorn: immunizes wearer from affects of psychic abilities
.....D) Icon of Chaos = Locator Beacons/teleport homers
.....E) Power Mace = Thunder Hammer
.....F) Spiky Bits = Digital weapons
.....G) Stigmata = Iron Halo
..........1) Represented by fresh wounds, scars, or other marks usually found on the bearer’s head or chest
.....H) Trophy Rack
..........1) Gives “Preferred Enemy” USR to entire unit.
.....I) Plague Knives and Plague Swords and Blight Grenades to be optional replacements for champs with Mark of Nurgle
.....J) Asp Champs with Mark of Tzeetch should be allowed to upgrade to sorcerers with access to one psychic power

V. Transport
.....A) Dread Claw = Drop pod
..........1) No inertial guidance system
...............a) May land on difficult or dangerous terrain but Units disembarking must take tests as normal.
...............b) Impassable terrain will be automatically avoided by reducing the scatter by the unnecessary distance.
...............c) If a dread claw lands on an opposing unit then the foe must roll a leadership test to either move out of the way are risk breaking.
..........2) No Deathwind Launcher upgrade
..........3) No locator beacon upgrade
.....B) Sonic Weaponry Transport War Gear
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Alright there you have it, my thoughts on some of the additions, chances, and over-all suggestions to improve on the current Co: CSM

Sorry if this is hard to read!

Might want to stay in this thread as well. The other thread is just full of "Oh you just what your cheesy armies back" whiners.

Yeah, they tend to troll threads like these.

I was thinking about it and I feel that the price of some choices should drop a little bit for what they do. (Oblits, Cult troops, Dreads ect ect)

My general issue with the CSM codex is that once the SM codex was released a lot of the uniqueness was trumped or replaced. With that in mine, here are my suggestions:

General rules:
Marks need to be reworked and really need only apply to certain units. They also need to apply to everything in the same way. Icon need to go away.
- If a mark is taken, it applies to the whole unit. No more icon bearers.
- Khorne = +1 attack, +1 WS, furious charge, fearless, cannot take heavy or assault weapons, cannot be taken by Havoks or Sorcerers
- Nurgle = +toughness, -1 initiative, feel no pain, fearless, cannot be taken by Raptors
- Tzeentch = +1 invulnerable or 4+ save, inferno bolts, slow and purposeful unless & can't take any unit upgrades unless IC or AC, fearless
- Slaanesh = +1 initiative, access to sonic weapons, fearless
- Undivided = can reroll leadership, fearless if on an IC

HQ selections with issues
- 4 greater demons return to replace the lol generic demon.
- Lord changed to S5 and T5. CSM are supposed to more fighty than SM, hence these increases instead of 4+ invulnerable.
- Demon weapons give straight +to stats. Randomness = BAD. Remove the take a wound on rolling a 1. Demon princes can take them as well.
- All psychic powers reworked.
- I'm not covering special characters.

Elites
- Dread frenzy rule changed to more useful. Dread changed to a MC with wounds and toughness
- Possessed abilities are chosen, not rolled.
- Reaper Autocannon reworked to be a better use of it's points.
- Terminators get +1 attack due to spikey weapons, think 2nd edition.
- Chosen get 2 attacks across the board w/ slight points increase OR they can infiltrate regardless of mission.

Troops
- 4 types of lesser demons return to replace the lol generic demons.
- Rest remains the same, but CSM can't take a mark. Marks are already shown in the specific troop types.
- Add a cultist option, see IG penal legion or conscripts.

Fast Attack
- Return of the specific demons.
- I'd like to remove spawn as they are a joke. Spawn should be deep strikable.
- Add another fast attack choice. I don't know what it would be, but I'm thinking a vehicle.

Heavy Support
- Defiler needs to return to a ranged unit.
- Land Raider needs capacity 12

Techboss wrote:
Marks need to be reworked and really need only apply to certain units. They also need to apply to everything in the same way. Icon need to go away.
- If a mark is taken, it applies to the whole unit. No more icon bearers.
- Khorne = +1 attack, +1 WS, furious charge, fearless, cannot take heavy or assault weapons, cannot be taken by Havoks or Sorcerers
- Nurgle = +toughness, -1 initiative, feel no pain, fearless, cannot be taken by Raptors

Besides the obvious, Sorcerors not following khorne, what is your rationale for disallowing certain unit choices from taking marks? A bloated marine with mosquito wings would be awesome and a havok getting senseless pleasure from over killing an opponent with heavy weapons just screams kill; maim; burn!

I think these limitations are unnecessary, personally.

Dont have the 3.5 codex hand to check up but If im remembering correctly I still feel that the 3.5 system worked the best and feel that it should never have been changed.

It would be nice if affinities to Chaos Gods mattered again, seeing berzerkers existing on the same table as a Slaneesh sorcerer still makes me wince a bit.

Besides that, stuff that has been said a lot on this thread (daemon variety, the other Legions, etc.) so i don't think there's a whole lot of point in repeating it

I'm going to get flamed for this but I feel strongly about trying to "fix" a workable -if comparatively bland- codex. As I've said before any changes that bring back the diversity and feel of the old dex I'm more than fine with; no one wants to play with a boring codex. but I must take issue with bringing back any of the old er, umm, well I can't say the C word for fear of verbal assassination...

Before you get too eager to bring back legion rules remember that those rules came with some pretty hefty restrictions on your FOC and you currently have none of those restrictions. If you recall, in order for any of the cult troops to be a Troops choice they had to have a lord with the matching Mark. I don't remember seeing anyone suggest that. Currently CSM has the most diverse and powerful troops section in an edition of the game which requires troops to win 66% of the time.

And now at the risk of being called a troll and sending HBMC into a frothing rage I'm going to do what I did to Deuce11 but I will attempt to be more constructive and less of a donkey-cave about it (sorry deuce).

Techboss wrote:My general issue with the CSM codex is that once the SM codex was released a lot of the uniqueness was trumped or replaced. With that in mine, here are my suggestions:

General rules:
Marks need to be reworked and really need only apply to certain units. They also need to apply to everything in the same way. Icon need to go away.
- If a mark is taken, it applies to the whole unit. No more icon bearers.
- Khorne = +1 attack, +1 WS, furious charge, fearless, cannot take heavy or assault weapons, cannot be taken by Havoks or Sorcerers
- Nurgle = +toughness, -1 initiative, feel no pain, fearless, cannot be taken by Raptors
- Tzeentch = +1 invulnerable or 4+ save, inferno bolts, slow and purposeful unless & can't take any unit upgrades unless IC or AC, fearless
- Slaanesh = +1 initiative, access to sonic weapons, fearless
- Undivided = can reroll leadership, fearless if on an IC
All of these seem fine as long as the point costs differ per unit as they would undoubtedly be better on termies than on grunt
HQ selections with issues
- 4 greater demons return to replace the lol generic demon. Yeah the generic daemon is kinda like the slowed cousin of the "real" GD's
- Lord changed to S5 and T5. CSM are supposed to more fighty than SM, hence these increases instead of 4+ invulnerable. I might be okay with S5 but T5 sounds a little too good since the MoN would then put him well out of the range of being wounded reliably by anything other than a MC and surely that doesn't seem balanced does it?
- Demon weapons give straight +to stats. Randomness = BAD. Remove the take a wound on rolling a 1. Demon princes can take them as well. It seems to me that chaos has always been a little random- not ork random mind you but random nonetheless.
- All psychic powers reworked. Couldn't agree more. It saddens me to see chaos obliged to use lash EVERY SINGLE TIME
- I'm not covering special characters.

Elites
- Dread frenzy rule changed to more useful. Dread changed to a MC with wounds and toughness ?? I can see neither fluff or rules justification or precedent for this one.
- Possessed abilities are chosen, not rolled. I agree. I can't see why they were made so random.
- Reaper Autocannon reworked to be a better use of it's points. Or make it cheaper. you're already better at combat and more versatile at shooting than regular termies thanks to combi weapons.
- Terminators get +1 attack due to spikey weapons, think 2nd edition. Not unless you're willing to pay an extra 10 points per model (which is what daemonic mutation used to cost on a non- character) and even then I don't think fluff justifies it (this game has little in common with 2nd ed.).
- Chosen get 2 attacks across the board w/ slight points increase OR they can infiltrate regardless of mission. as much as I'd like to say "my vets are cooler than your vets" I have to agree on this point. I think the extra attack makes more sense.
Troops
- 4 types of lesser demons return to replace the lol generic demons. Sure.
- Rest remains the same, but CSM can't take a mark. Marks are already shown in the specific troop types. What about MoCU? In fact maybe that could come standard since CU doesn't have it's own troops choice.
- Add a cultist option, see IG penal legion or conscripts. Conscript rules would be Ideal IMO but weren't they alpha legion only?

Fast Attack
- Return of the specific demons.
- I'd like to remove spawn as they are a joke. Spawn should be deep strikable. Yeah they should have some kind of save for their price. Why deep strike?
- Add another fast attack choice. I don't know what it would be, but I'm thinking a vehicle.

Heavy Support
- Defiler needs to return to a ranged unit. You mean like a better BS? I could go for that.
- Land Raider needs capacity 12 A month ago I would have said yes, undoubtedly- but the Wolves' LR is apparently 10 as well. Some have suggested that that's for the keg though...

Mostly what look for when I go though these wish lists is not to systematically crush dreams but to point out units that have no fluff backing or precedent. Of course if phil kelly does your next codex all bets are off. I'm hoping he does BA and I get marines riding giant bats!
*wraithlordmechanic crosses fingers*

okay now that that's done you may flame if you want.
P.S. If it makes you feel better I also looked over the Eldar proposed "fix" and saw that it was so out of left field that I didn't know where to begin.

Well, I'm a bit off-topic,
but what I do not want is the lash of submission for CSM armies
that include icons or marks from gods other than Slaanesh.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:All of these seem fine as long as the point costs differ per unit as they would undoubtedly be better on termies than on grunt Obviously
I might be okay with S5 but T5 sounds a little too good since the MoN would then put him well out of the range of being wounded reliably by anything other than a MC and surely that doesn't seem balanced does it? This goes as part of the points discussion above.
It seems to me that chaos has always been a little random- not ork random mind you but random nonetheless.I could live with the randomness, but the take a wound on a 1 needs to be removed.
?? I can see neither fluff or rules justification or precedent for this one.See wraithlord for the rules justification for a AV walker becoming a wounds/toughness model. Fluff wise, the Dread is corrupted by a demons ....
Not unless you're willing to pay an extra 10 points per model (which is what daemonic mutation used to cost on a non- character) and even then I don't think fluff justifies it (this game has little in common with 2nd ed.). This offsets the cheese shield that currently exists for SM termies.
What about MoCU? In fact maybe that could come standard since CU doesn't have it's own troops choice.I forgot to add this comment, the default mark should be undivided.
Conscript rules would be Ideal IMO but weren't they alpha legion only?If you read Storm of Iron, IW also use traitor guard which could be lumped into the "cultist" bucket.
You mean like a better BS? I could go for that.Indirect fire, increased BS. The model was originally intended to be ranged and my only guess is that the GW suites thought they weren't selling enough, so it was changed to melee to make people redo their models or buy new ones.
A month ago I would have said yes, undoubtedly- but the Wolves' LR is apparently 10 as well. Some have suggested that that's for the keg though... SW have access to the Crusader as well, meaning the transport capacity becomes a negligble point. The SM land raider also has the "machine spirit" option which makes it a bit more useful

Deuce11 wrote:Besides the obvious, Sorcerors not following khorne, what is your rationale for disallowing certain unit choices from taking marks? A bloated marine with mosquito wings would be awesome and a havok getting senseless pleasure from over killing an opponent with heavy weapons just screams kill; maim; burn!

This was more for the fluff nazis, but I don't personally care if anything can take any mark.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I'm a bit off-topic,
but what I do not want is the lash of submission for CSM armies
that include icons or marks from gods other than Slaanesh.

I have to agree with you,while Chaos undivided needs representation in a new codex,I do belive that the Lash prince/Berzerker,PM/Oblit list isn't necasarily the way to do it.
Perhaps ensuring that if an HQ has a Mark then at least two troops must either have that same mark,or no mark at all?

Mekboy wrote:Woah, 3+ FNP on plague marines would be crazy.

Anyway, I'd like to see decent possessed and spawn, rules for individual legios or even just the ability to upgrade characters to one of the 4 main legions.

QFT

Techboss wrote:
?? I can see neither fluff or rules justification or precedent for this one.See wraithlord for the rules justification for a AV walker becoming a wounds/toughness model. Fluff wise, the Dread is corrupted by a demons .... The wraithlord has been a MC for more editions than it was a vehicle while the dread has always been a vehicle. And if being possessed by daemons turned a vehicle into into a monstrous creature then defilers and soulgrinders would be would have toughness a value.
Not unless you're willing to pay an extra 10 points per model (which is what daemonic mutation used to cost on a non- character) and even then I don't think fluff justifies it (this game has little in common with 2nd ed.). This offsets the cheese shield that currently exists for SM termies. and the extra 10 points would make them cost the same number of points as a SM termy iirc (or are they 35 base)?

You mean like a better BS? I could go for that.Indirect fire, increased BS. The model was originally intended to be ranged and my only guess is that the GW suites thought they weren't selling enough, so it was changed to melee to make people redo their models or buy new ones. Call me a whiner if you want but I don't think that Chaos should have free access to indirect ordnance weapons. And anything powered by a daemon shouldn't sit in a corner pounding away at things it can't see.
A month ago I would have said yes, undoubtedly- but the Wolves' LR is apparently 10 as well. Some have suggested that that's for the keg though... SW have access to the Crusader as well, meaning the transport capacity becomes a negligble point. Chaos will not be getting access to the Crusader. Not being a jerk here just a realist. As a rule SM's have better toys, CSM's have better troops
The SM land raider also has the "machine spirit" option which makes it a bit more useful. Which is why it costs 30 points more

Sorry everybody I was going for the "most painful to read" award.

So for all of those who don't want the book to change, but seem to advocate some sort of rules for the various Chaos Legions:

Wouldn't adding another 1-4 books to the rotation be an absolutely terrible idea? GW already fails to keep the current amount of codexes updated to the current rules platform, and this causes large problems. Looking at the future of the game would adding more books, thus further slowing the already dismal pace at which GW updates books, really be an acceptable solution? If anything it seems like GW needs to figure out how to condense the number of codexes so that they can keep them updated into the current rules quicker and easier.

Caffran9 wrote:So for all of those who don't want the book to change, but seem to advocate some sort of rules for the various Chaos Legions:

Wouldn't adding another 1-4 books to the rotation be an absolutely terrible idea? GW already fails to keep the current amount of codexes updated to the current rules platform, and this causes large problems. Looking at the future of the game would adding more books, thus further slowing the already dismal pace at which GW updates books, really be an acceptable solution? If anything it seems like GW needs to figure out how to condense the number of codexes so that they can keep them updated into the current rules quicker and easier.

In my case I don't advocate it- It's a matter of fact. Either a) GW comes out with legion codexes or b) you have to wait the 2-4 years until they do another.

Caffran9 wrote:Wouldn't adding another 1-4 books to the rotation be an absolutely terrible idea?

If anything it seems like GW needs to figure out how to condense the number of codexes so that they can keep them updated into the current rules quicker and easier.

How so? It's not like Dark Eldar, one of the oldest currently-legal books, aren't still competitive. Adding Chaos Legions (Big 4) and Chaos Renegades (LatD), along with Adeptus Mechanicus and Biel-Tan (that's a total of 4 new Codices, for those who're counting...) doesn't change the competiveness of Dark Eldar, but it does increase the number of Loyalist SM options (+4), and further improves the GEQ (+3) to MEQ (+1) ratio.

If by "condense Codices", you mean "Squat Dark Eldar and Daemonhunters in favor of Chaos Legions", I suppose that'd be OK. But doing this means we officially lose a valid & playable GEQ army, along with some very handy Allies.

Also, why the rush for more new rules? Do we want GW to spend *less* time playtesting Codices simply to squeeze them out faster? Do we want to spend more money on rules and models?

Personally, I'm OK with more Codices and an ever-lengthening release cycle. I see no personal benefit in additional churn for the sake of paying GW more money more often.

Competitive isn't important (it is to me, but to most people it is not). Working completely within the rules by design is important. Clearly, no army will fit perfectly due to inherent flaws in the way GW writes and develops their books/rules. however it does seem very important to make sure that the books are all written with the current rules in mind in order to minimize confusion and loopholes.

I also feel like among the older codexes, Dark Eldar are a bit of an exception when it comes to being competitive. The IQ books are not good at all in the tournament scene and Necrons are also not very strong these days. They basically have Deceiver and Monoliths going for them. you can run a gimmick list or two and hope to catch people off guard, but that is hardly gorunds for really being considered a competitive list.

Why would Beil-Tan get a whole Codex?

It's just one of those things that doesn't make sense and is pure "John Logic". He doesn't like the old Chaos Codex, yet is fine with the idea of a Beil-Tan Codex... I mean WTF'ingF?


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Caffran9 wrote:Wouldn't adding another 1-4 books to the rotation be an absolutely terrible idea?

Adding one more book to cover Legions armies, no. Adding four more books to cover World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons though, that would be an absolutley terrible idea.

I've explained this in other threads, but can do so again here.

If GW is doing 2 Codex releases a year, which seems to be their current rate, to get four Codices out would require 2 years. However, they're not going to do nothing but Chaos releases for two years running, so say they split them up and make them every other release, that makes it 4 years to get all four books out. Now GW loves Marines - loves them to pieces - so if we've for four Chaos releases and four 'other' slots in those 4 years, that means that at least half of those 'other' slots will be a Marine Codex. So that's 6 out of 8 releases being Marine Codices, so in the space of 4 years we get a whopping 2 non-Marine releases. It also means that Thousand Sons (as they would be the last) will be waiting 4 years to get a book that:

A). Won't get a further update for 8+ years.
B). May not ever get an update, and simply be removed from the game in favour of an even more generic Chaos Codex (assuming that's even possible).

I just can't see that working.

H.B.M.C is right concerning multiple Legion codices,it would be a awful idea .
However,concerning a single Legions codex,what goes in?,what stays out?
Now,of course the "big four" will be represented,but what about Night Lords,Iron Warriors,Word Bearers,obviously they can't be represented by Codex:Boring Spikey Feths,so would they not merit a place in the Legions codex?
And what of LaTD?could we perhaps squeeze them in as well,or are we looking at codex bloat?

FITZZ wrote: However,concerning a single Legions codex,what goes in?,what stays out?
Now,of course the "big four" will be represented,

but what about Night Lords,Iron Warriors,Word Bearers,obviously they can't be represented by Codex:Boring Spikey Feths,so would they not merit a place in the Legions codex?

And what of LaTD?could we perhaps squeeze them in as well,or are we looking at codex bloat?

Easy:
- Chaos Legions = Big 4
- Chaos Marines = the rest
- Chaos Traitors = LatD

The current CSM Codex cannot and does not represent Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers or Iron Warriors so unless you're talking about a whole new suite of Chaos Codices (ie. re-doing the current one to fit the four Undivided Legions in), then it wouldn't work.

And 'Traitors' is a lot more than just LatD, in much the same way as 'Daemons' is more than just Daemons.

A 'Traitor' Codex should include both Traitor Guard and Lost & The Damned (they are not the same, no matter how much 'Counts As' John or anyone else might want to spin it). How you'd do Traitor Guard without it just being Spiky Guard is a different story - and not one I'm saying I have the answer or solution to - but it's something worth remembering.

A 'Legions' Codex, as in World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons would work fine, as would an Undivided Codex that has a basic list (Black Legion), and then the other four.

Then Daemons needs to be redone as well to include full Daemon World armies - the enslaved warriors and other horrible creatures that infest Daemon Worlds, and not just Daemons.

I'd like to see a Legions book covering all the Legions,as I honestly don't see that the current CSM can properly represent any of the original Legions,in fact I honestly belive the only thing that Codex CSM can properly represent is kindling for a fire.
Now,perhaps a Chaos traitors book would be nice,somthing representing the non MEQ aspects of chaos..including LaTD.
And apparently H.B.M.C. types much faster than I do.

@Fitzz: Obviously, if we pull the Big 4 from the CSM book, we have space to add 4 brand new Special Characters, each of which grants a USR or modifies the FOC according to their Legion...

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Fitzz: Obviously, if we pull the Big 4 from the CSM book, we have space to add 4 brand new Special Characters, each of which grants a USR or modifies the FOC according to their Legion...

True,however that opens up the whole "special characters unlocking rules" issue that I am also very much against .

Ditto.

I shouldn't have to bring a named character to play my army. Whatever happened to having your own fluff for your army or, dare I say it, picking the flavour of ice cream you want, not just a different coloured tub for your vanilla.

Somewhere in England, Robin Crudace is cackling maniacally...

Bring back the old gear choices for Aspiring Champs so I can use mine again... LOL

JohnHwangDD wrote:Somewhere in England, Robin Crudace is cackling arbitrarily...

Fixed it for you.

I want Lash of Submission to go away... It is ridiculuous that whole armies are formed around one spammy little power. Re-balance Chaos and pull the attention back to units like noise marines, thousand sons, and other cool stuff that really makes chaos, chaos!

Warboss Gutrip wrote:I want Lash of Submission to go away...

Of that, I doubt you have to worry.

You simply need the patience for the next CSM book to come out.

Yeah, like Siren before it, Lash ain't gonna survive to the next book.

I'd like to see:

Cheaper sonic weapons, and a sonic weapon for every noise marine.
Possibly some other kind of Tzeentch marine. Though I do like Thousand Sons.
More chaos specific vehicles
Special characters that affect force org
Legion lists
Demons
LatD

I think that's asking a lot so I won't add any more of want I want to see.

Here's what we don't need:

Anything with a FNP that isn't 4+. Messing around with universal special rules is bad for the game. It's like having two different kinds of cyclone missile launchers.

Zerkers with rending - nope. Rending sucks, we don't need it.
Newer LR variants - nope. Chaos is supposed to use old equipment plus it's own inventions. We don't need to copy the SM codex. Or do you want Land Speeders and attack bikes, too? Chaos scouts with sniper rifles? Play loyalists if you want to use their toys. That's the point of having different armies.

More expensive oblits with less options. Nuf said.
Oh, and no more god damn spider tanks that are impossible to hide from LOS because they are so fething huge. Yeah they look cool. But they're too easy too pop because their fething huge.

Noisy_Marine wrote:Special characters that affect force org

Really? That's what you want to see?

You play Emperor's Children right? Do you want to bring Lucius to every game you play?

Think about it...

I think the most likely legion rules will involve special characters affecting force org. But if GW switches design philosophies again, we won't need em. I hope.

I think that the most significant improvements would be to get chaos some new special characters. I mean, c'mon, Abbadon isn't looking as young as he used to be, and thats not a good look for a warmaster of chaos. But seriously, a lot of the chaos models are outdated now and need a makeover.

Rules that i think need to be added/improved: (just a few)...
+Zerkers need higher str to differentiate them from marines with IoK.
+Havocs should be cheaper.
+Get rid of daemons totally and put more emphasise and special rules on things like chosen marines, possesed, termies, etc.
+Better psychic powers.
+Crazier vehicles, i mean, chaos space marines shouldn't mean space marine vehicles but with spikes!! We want more things like defilers...

i could rant all day...

Noisy_Marine wrote:I think the most likely legion rules...

Ok, gonna stop you there. When did this thread go from "What do you want in Codex: CSM 5th edition" to "What do you think GW will do in Codex: CSM 5th Edition"?

Lash should really have been a Tzeentch power.

And I don't think it would be too broken if they changed it to match the Pavane of Slaanesh.

Pavane exists because they saw how broken Lash was.

This is ridiculous if the berzerkers have all those upgrade theyll be like the freaken greater deamons lets be realistic and not make everyone invincible

I agree with you Vampire.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:I think the most likely legion rules...

Ok, gonna stop you there. When did this thread go from "What do you want in Codex: CSM 5th edition" to "What do you think GW will do in Codex: CSM 5th Edition"?

Good point. If Legions comes out, I expect it to have SC all over the place. But I remember when my Chaos Lord had so many options we DIDN'T NEED SC's! And I believe those days can come again!!!!


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...- .- -- .--. .. .-. . wrote:This is ridiculous if the berzerkers have all those upgrade theyll be like the freaken greater deamons lets be realistic and not make everyone invincible

Nope. They'll still be 1 wound marines with Toughness 4. And with lots of options they'll be expensive. This is a *good* thing. People will be able to build the elite legion armies they want. Unless you want a horde. In that case, uh, play Alpha Legion? *shrug* Course it'd be really cool if we could take cultists in legion lists.

KhorneOnTheCob wrote:Rules that i think need to be added/improved:[/b] (just a few)...
+Zerkers need higher str to differentiate them from marines with IoK.

Marines with IoK get +1 A.
Zerkers have that + Furious Charge, Fearless, etc.

They are different enough.

They really just had to update the last book. From the last book;

Liked- the god centric lists towards the back (had one for all the orig legions)
liked - if you marked a unit you had access to that war gear i.e Terms with blast master for slaanesh
liked - you could buy the upgrades for your possessed, according to your style of play or mark
liked - you can upgrade your Lord with possessions or gifts
liked - deamons and greater deamons of the god you wanted

Disliked- the chosen entry, they diffenently need to clear that up
disliked - the raptors in last edition
disliked - the summoning rules

Still could use
Drop pods
Razor Back type of transport
Atk bikes or equal to
Lord on bike or jump pack/wings = bikes and raptors as troops

cptjoeyg wrote:
Still could use
Drop pods
Razor Back type of transport
Atk bikes or equal to
Lord on bike or jump pack/wings = bikes and raptors as troops

You know if you like that stuff there is army that has all of it; what was it....wait let me think.... Dang! I can't remember. Anyway you should just play that army.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

cptjoeyg wrote:
Still could use
Drop pods
Razor Back type of transport
Atk bikes or equal to
Lord on bike or jump pack/wings = bikes and raptors as troops

You know if you like that stuff there is army that has all of it; what was it....wait let me think.... Dang! I can't remember. Anyway you should just play that army.

just because I presented a valid point in a jerk sort of way doesn't make me a troll does it....?

But seriously chaos is chaos and marines is marines. If I said that marines should get "something like daemons" in a thread about what the next marine codex should have I would expect to be labeled a troll (again) for the sheer ridiculousness of it.

Not proposing rules in a proposed rules forum and, in fact, doing the opposite of proposing rules in a proposed rules forum - that would make you a troll.

**EDIT**
H.B.M.C. ninja chopped my reply.

What he said

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:just because I presented a valid point in a jerk sort of way doesn't make me a troll does it....?

But seriously chaos is chaos and marines is marines. If I said that marines should get "something like daemons" in a thread about what the next marine codex should have I would expect to be labeled a troll (again) for the sheer ridiculousness of it.

HEY_FAILTROLL

What I'm confused about, (and have been ever since i played Iron Warriors) is why is every marine with the mark of Tenzeech(spelling?) a thousand son?

if i wanted to represent a chaos force that has chosen to pledge themselves to the Lord of Change, why do i have to field one named legion with a preset background?

(Also in regards to Traitor guard, it wasn't just Alpha legion who used them, Iron Warriors have been known to use them too)

Farmer wrote:
HEY_FAILTROLL

what?

D'oh!

You know if you like that stuff there is army that has all of it; what was it....wait let me think.... Dang! I can't remember. Anyway you should just play that army.

Wow Wraithlordmechanic! that's pretty good, you got me there.

My post was based off of equipment that the Traitor Legions had during the HH, and would make sense to have them in the list. Now if they don't that is fine.

Which is why it is PROPOSED RULES.

I want to see Codex: Mother Fethers, as opposed to Codex: Naughty Marines.

I want this to be like comparing Ivan Milat to some fourteen year old Somking on a street corner.

I want Cult HQs/Termies/Fast Attack/Daemons/Heavy Support.

I want fearless termies with FnP so they don't run away when my basic troops don't.
I want fearless termies with Sonic Weaponry.
I want fearless termies with Furious Charge.
I want fearless termies with Inferno Bolts.
I want Predators and Land Raiders with Sonic weaponry/Inferno Bolts.
I want Cultists and Infiltrating Marines.
I want Jump Pack armies.
I want more Heavy/less fast attack and Bassilisks
I want Dark Apostles.
I want Daemons.

I want FLAVOUR!

Jimi Nemesis wrote:
I want FLAVOUR!

Sorry couldn't resist!

But I agree with everything else. A Pred with H.Bolters and Inferno Bolts would be awesome!

I'd personally like to see more fast attack variaty. I personally think Raptor Berzerkers would be epic. Oh, and drop pods, damnit. Don't discribe a legion that excessivly uses drop pods (Pg. 24 of the CSM codex, Steel Brethren) if you aren't going to give us drop pods!

I would want a book that allows a player to field Undivided, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh armies that are all competitive instead of the cookie cutter Lash Prince/Plague Marine/Obliterator armies we have now. I want good options for units that make them worth taking instead of virtually useless units like Possessed. In other words, for example, I want options for Terminators that make them worth taking as well as different and good options for Possessed that make them compete with other Elite choices, making you actually have to think about which units to take.

I really liked in the old codex how if your CL had say the mark of khorne than you could only take CU or KF in troops choice and units wiht other marks took up there Force org slot plus an elites choice (not sure whether the unit just became an elites choice or took up an elites choice as well)

Edit: btw at my store a lot of people say chaos is over powered and and underprice ( some even say marines should have gotten more). they tell me the chaos is just ridiculous....... And when i complain about my warrior who's been alive for 10k years not learning anything at all they say that time passes differently in the warp so those 10k years probably went by in 3 days................. its such BS..................oh and we use to have 6 chaos players at our store now we have 1.......4 quit warhammer when the new codex got out (alpha legion player, iron warrior player, word bearers player, and emperors children player) leaving me and a chaos undivided player. my army is currently shelved. I'm sick of people complaining how chaos is over powered (not you guys)... and i think i speak for all of us when i say we dont want to be broken we just want a return to fluff cause frankly this codex sucks (its competitieve) but sucks

PS- Why do our space marines cost the same(if you don't upgrade them with icon) as a normal space marine but we dont have they shall know no fear (and we shouldn't), ability to split squads, free weapons, and chapter tactics? p

I would like it for Marked Units to have Hatred towards units that are devoted to their archenemy god.

So sure, you can field a Tactical Marine squad with the Mark of Khorne and a tactical Marine squad with the Mark of Slaanesh-too bad that they're going to spend the battle killing eachother rather than killing the enemy!

At this point I'm not too keen on having the Mark of Khorne give +1A, to me it's just stupid and doesn't really make much sense when he's all about warfare, not just close combat.

He used to grant Chaos Armor and stuff, that went away with 3rd, right? Not sure as I didn't play during that time.


I also think that Marked Units should have to be their god's number in unit sizes. So a unit with the Mark of Slaanesh would have 6 guys, a unit with the Mark of Tzeentch would have 9 guys, etc.

Of course, they would receive some pretty good bonuses, especially Slaanesh with the low unit sizes. Probably +1 LD to the squad and Stubborn?

Nurgle is really tough so it's not as big of a deal.

Khorne is 8, which is pretty good sized. Again, not a big deal.

Bringing back Beastmen would be cool.

More random stuff! But cool random stuff. Like random mutations and things like that. Maybe that's just me as I play casually.

I like the idea of anomosity between sqauds with different devotional marks,however It could perhaps be best represented by only alowing mixed marks in an army lead by Chaos undivided HQs.
Add to this perhaps a limit on marked units per army,as well as possiable "anomosity test" if units are with in 12" of each other and not already engaged in shooting/CC an enemy unit.

FITZZ wrote: I like the idea of anomosity between sqauds with different devotional marks,however It could perhaps be best represented by only alowing mixed marks in an army lead by Chaos undivided HQs.
Add to this perhaps a limit on marked units per army,as well as possiable "anomosity test" if units are with in 12" of each other and not already engaged in shooting/CC an enemy unit.

I don't think that anyone should be penalized for using a Mark. Anyone should be able to use a Mark of Khorne unit with a Mark of Slaanesh unit. It will just come with a very big downside.

Chaos Undivided HQ's should be able to summon Daemons of any mark, and units with a Mark should be moved to an Elites slot.

Again nobody should be penalized for using marks, as long as one has points he or she should be able use as many marked units as he or she wants.

I don't like the animosity for units that have the same mark of another unit.

I could see Animosity working like this:

"Chaos gods are jealous gods. Not only that, but rivalry is common between them and each has an enemy god that represents everything they hate. Khorne hates Slaanesh and vice versa, Tzeentch hates Nurgle and vice versa. To represent this, each marked unit has Preferred Enemy against units with their god's archenemy's mark. In addition, they gain Rage against that unit if it is on the field and MUST try to engage in combat, ignoring all other fights. "

Yes the wording is horrific. Anyone else want to take a stab at it?

I think that they should do something like this:

If a Chaos Lord has a specific mark, all troop choices must have that mark. Marks are made up as: *Names are just stand ins*

Mark of the Hydra (Alpha Legion)

Mark of the Dark Prince (Slaanesh) *I'll do examples for this one*

A Chaos Lord with Mark of the Dark Prince may take Wargear from the "Follows of Slaanesh" page and gain +2 to their Initiative and gain the USR Fearless.

If a Chaos Lord is gifted with the Mark of the Dark Prince all troop choices must be given Mark of the Dark Prince.

CSM, Chosen, Posessed, Cultists, and Havocs with Mark of the Dark Prince gain +1 to their initiative and gain the USR Fearless.

Followers of Slaanesh:

A Chosen or Veteran may be given the following Wargear/Upgrades

Tentacles of Slaanesh - Gain the USR Rending
...ETC...

A Havoc or Chosen may be given the following Options

Blastmaster....

*I think I got my point across?*

Mark of Slaughter (Khorne)

Mark of Plauge (Nurgle)

Mark of the Eternal (Tzeentch)

Mark of Iron (Iron Warriors)

Mark of the Night (Night Lords)

Mark of the Heretic (Word Bearers)

Mark of the Dark Gods (Chaos Undivided)

So if you take an Alpha Legion Lord, all of your troops are Alpha Legioneers and gain the Mark of the Hydra (for a price of course)

Now, in Chaos Warbands there are always units in the army that will worship a specific God only with a fanatical zeal. You can represent this by making these squads elites.

Add another unit to the elites section called Cult Troops. These represent the actual Plauge Marines / Berzerkers. They have all their specials as they do now.

Now, if an army is Comprized of Chaos undivided, all of the troops, again, will be chaos undivided!

This system allows you to have your "Alpha Legion" army, but still take "Cult Squads".

I have a good idea in my mind it was just hard to get into typing.. I tried .

Another thing I want changed is how posessed work. I think that if they worship a specific God they should have specific things. EX. If they worship Khorne - PW + WS boost. If they worship slaaensh, Rending on 5-6 and fleet & I5. Tzeentch, they all get ST2-3 Flamers and a 5+ invuln. Nurgle, Poisioned weapons and FNP and T5. Undivided - Rending and Flight.

They are gifted and powerful beings. The whole randomness to them sucks. Either you should be able to upgrade them with specific blessings or do something like I said above maybe...

The one thing that would also be OK is allying CSM w/ Daemons, but not the other way around. There would have to be VERY specific restrictions though!!

Vladsimpaler wrote:

FITZZ wrote: I like the idea of anomosity between sqauds with different devotional marks,however It could perhaps be best represented by only alowing mixed marks in an army lead by Chaos undivided HQs.
Add to this perhaps a limit on marked units per army,as well as possiable "anomosity test" if units are with in 12" of each other and not already engaged in shooting/CC an enemy unit.

I don't think that anyone should be penalized for using a Mark. Anyone should be able to use a Mark of Khorne unit with a Mark of Slaanesh unit. It will just come with a very big downside.

Chaos Undivided HQ's should be able to summon Daemons of any mark, and units with a Mark should be moved to an Elites slot.

Again nobody should be penalized for using marks, as long as one has points he or she should be able use as many marked units as he or she wants.

I don't like the animosity for units that have the same mark of another unit.

I could see Animosity working like this:

"Chaos gods are jealous gods. Not only that, but rivalry is common between them and each has an enemy god that represents everything they hate. Khorne hates Slaanesh and vice versa, Tzeentch hates Nurgle and vice versa. To represent this, each marked unit has Preferred Enemy against units with their god's archenemy's mark. In addition, they gain Rage against that unit if it is on the field and MUST try to engage in combat, ignoring all other fights. "

Yes the wording is horrific. Anyone else want to take a stab at it?

Perhaps I should attempt to be slightly clearer in what I ment,as it would apply to "undivided" armies,and not "Legion" armies
I don't belive anyone should necsarily be penalized for the using of marks ,one should be free to mix marks as much as they please,howeverI belive this should have a few stipulations,such as including at least one HQ that represents Chaos undivided,to me this just makes a bit more sense as to why Khorne,Slannesh,Nurgle marked troops are working together.
Now,my animosity rule would work somthing like this,if,for example a unit with the mark of Tzeentch was with in 12" of a unit with the Mark of Nurgle,then the player would have to take and pass an anomosity test (like a leadership test),failing said test would result in the two units falling on each other for one turn (just a thought).
Also I agree that a Chaos undivided HQ should allow the summoning of any daemon,reguardless of the daemons mark.

I think we need some better fast attack bikes are good but they are over priced by a bit

Frankly, can we just have 3.5 with some of the old, non functioning, rules replaced?

I loved 3.5 Chaos. They were awesome, flavorful, and you could make such fun and unique armies out of them, and still expect to not get your posterior handed to you.

With 4th Ed, you take lash princes and oblits. Anyone who doesn't isn't going to win (at least not very often against players who have competent skills and armies).

To break it down:
Bring back the Lord-Building system
Bring Back Books of Chaos
Bring back worth-while demons (or at least make the generic ones worth a damn)
Bring back Sane-naughts
Bring back the ability to pick verteran tactics for marines.
Bring Back Vehicle upgrades
Bring back the joy.

If I could just affect one change in the CSM codex it would be either the addition of a special rule for all of the non-cult/fearless units in the book, or a points reduction of those models.

Most of them are pointed higher or comparable to loyalist marines that all have three built in special rules. The CSM has an extra CCW and a higher leadership by one point, these two things do not make up points wise for the 3 embedded special rules of the loyalists.

For example look at the Space Wolves Grey Hunter; they are 15pts each with the same weapons load out as the basic CSM, plus they have three Special rules, with a base Leadership of 8. So taking into account the basic CSM base leadership of 9, it would be viable to give the non-fearless models in the Chaos Marine army one special rule or a points reduction without destroying game balance.

It could also be a way to make basic CSM compete during army selection when compared to the cult troops.

For the past 6 months we have been working locally on a special rule to give the non-cult/fearless units. This is what we are currently using.

The following special rule applies to all units chosen from the following entries in the Codex Chaos Space Marines.

Chaos Sorcerers
Chaos Chosen Space Marines
Chaos Terminators
Chaos Space Marines
Chaos Raptors
Chaos Bikes
Chaos Havocs

Fear is for the weak: Chaos Marines never have their leadership reduced by more than –2 Ld as the result of losing an assault. If the Unit loses the assault by more than -2, then immediately take any remaining modifiers as armor saves. They may also attempt to regroup even if the squad has been reduced less than half strength through casualties.

It's been working out well so far. The local IW, WB and my Chaos Marine DIY have stopped looking like Cult wannabes.

what i would like to see is a weapond for the chaos that is along the same lines as a Storm Bolter, also some more lesser speical char the the 7 lord that are out now would be nice, the number of troops the LR can carry needs to be increased to carry atleast 12 so a termie lord and 5 termies can ride in it, another light transport would also be nice and a better elite choose then the chosen CSM

options for cultists...renegade guard

BAN wrote:options for cultists...renegade guard that dont completly suck.

Fixed it for you.

Bring back the Doom Fist for the lulz.

the forgeworld traitor guard are awesome, it'd be cool if the new chaos codex had traitor guard stuff.
retinues for chaos lords
make berzerkers good again
give more options for raptors
more options all round infact

@Ban:

What's wrong with zerkers? They got lots of stuff in exchange for the loss of Blood Frenzy.

I'm assuming he's upset that they don't Rage after Land Raiders and Skimmers...

here is what i would like to see:

obliterators 100 points, 2 wounds T5 standard, 5+ inv. standard kit of heavy weapons including non energy weapons. make them markable.

array of demonic weapons.

MoN bears FNP on al bearers, so i can finally have a proper deathguard lord and termies.

possession for dreads

bring back demonic mutation

no stormshields!

dreadclaws

animosity between gods

actual demons

My two cent:
Plague Marines need to get back Plague knives or have some sort of poisoned weapon.
Specialty vehicles: Tired of just seeing Vanilla Landraider for chaos.
Either lower points on Unique chars or give em Eternal warrior. (Typhus shouldn't be that easy to kill, Dammit.)
Be able to bring in alliance with Demons.
I'm sure people are tired of hearing it,but... LATD!!!

didn't they used to have chain axes that limited armour saves to 4+? and that got taken away i'm sure there was something awesome like that years ago

@BAN: "Heavy CCWs" that limit saves to a 4+ were a bad idea, given that 40k doesn't modify AS as a fundamental concept - either you get a save, or you don't. I would be disappointed to see them come back.

Mechanically, "Rending" is about the same in net effect, and more efficient (reduces die rolls).

If KBs require Rending axes at extra cost, similar to how NM pay extra for SBs, I'd be OK with that.

I think they should get rid of lash, buff up tzeentch magic power, slap eternal warrior on typhus, give us a cultist option, and fix possessed.

I think everyone just wants the old chaos codex back

or rather the CHAOS put back into CSM

also bring back all the crazy stuff like chaos androids, beastmen, daemons, GOOD possessed, giant monsters, daemon weapons/guns...etc!!!!!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh yea cultists/scouts

Bring back the goodness of previous book, God Rivalries, no nurg/tzeentch armies ffs, actual demons

fix possessed, dreads,

legion rules again given the character you take 'IE Abbaddon is black legion, Kharn is definite world eaters, Huron is Red Corsairs, Typhus is Death guard, Zso Sahaal is Night Lords. :Who doesn't want to see Zso have his own mini!: Eliphas for Word Bearers, etc etc' or just based on the army selection you want, undivided lets you take cult troops but limited variety, God Specific lets you take all of that god no limit

and some tweeks to the bring things up to standard with other armies

Disagree with reinserting the rivalries - we want more options not less.

Fix possessed - roll before or better yet buy your abilities so you can model what you give your guys. WYSIWYG is a good idea for a reason.

Flexibility/variety with Chosen (& just chosen) - infiltrate is great with alphas, but dont suit Iron warriors/word bearers etc. So Im thinking different vet abilities like you used to get (just the one per squad would be enough).

Differentiation on the daemons wouldnt be hard - they used up like 2 pages in the old codex - you dont need more than that. Price accordingly. Alternatively, marks on your lesser daemons for some minor variation.

Oh yeah - more vehicles. We dont need every loyalist tank, but two/three LR's would be nice! Squads of predators.

And give us back the extra attack on the bikers - then they are priced correctly.

I am currently creating a Chaos codex.

It has Rivalry, but how it works is that you can have opposing units, i.e. Slaanesh and Khorne, but if they ever come within 24" of eachother they will try and fight and kill eachother.

It also has a d100 mutation/attribute table with 42 separate mutations. Some can be purchased (like Giant Growth which makes you a monstrous creature or Wings which makes you jump infantry) but some can only be received as part of paying 15 points to roll a d100 (like Flaming Skull Face, and Metal Body).

It is nearing completion. It has not been playtested yet however.

I still have to make Possessed (which get 1 free roll on the d100 table and may pay points to get another 2 rolls), and that's about it actually.

In all the codex has a lot of variation. You can have a Chaos Inquisitor leading Beastmen and Chaos Squats and Renegade Marines, and also have some Rogue IG with Leman Russ support.

Also, I have a quick question: Should Chaos Eldar be able to take the mark of Slaanesh? Just wondering.

If you only have 42 separate mutations, and some are purchasable, how about moving 6 to wargear and the rest to a d66 table?

Hi JHDD,

My reasoning behind this is that you can still attain these by not purchasing them, which makes it cool because squads and daemons that have access to random mutations can still attain them.
(For interest of balance, however, Giant Growth and Metal Body are to be rerolled if they are received by a squad)

Feel free to check out the actual table here:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AR9_xneXKfB1ZGNwMmJ2M2ZfMTJkcmRzNjlmYg&hl=en

Hmm..

Seems a little too complex/random. Two things people tend not to like.

Give everything a points value... make it so units/characters can take up to a max of X amount of points... and be done with it.

Just my two cents.

jp400 wrote:Hmm..

Seems a little too complex/random. Two things people tend not to like.

Give everything a points value... make it so units/characters can take up to a max of X amount of points... and be done with it.

Just my two cents.

Most units can only buy 2 attributes, Heroes can purchase up to 5 attributes, and then may purchase randoms after that, but the sum of the randoms and the chosen attributes must equal their sacred number or less. So for example a Nurgle Marine Champion can purchase up to 5 attributes. Let's say he takes Giant Growth, Extremely Fat, and Spits Acid, Agile, and Additional Arms, and then can purchase up to 2 randoms. Or he can take 7 randoms if he wants!


In the end, though, the table is really more for casual play as, I agree, it's a little complex.
Again though, there are attributes that you can purchase that aren't random, and that is more intended for tournament play where players like to know what they're going to get

Even then, you're not forced to use the table, at all. If you want, you don't even have to use Chaotic attributes.

Thanks,
Vlad

I came up with something recently that could diversify vehicles a bit: Marks on vehicles. Mabye something like this:

MoK: +1 Attack for walkers, +1 on a ramming roll for everything else.
MoN: +1 to the Front, side, and rear armor (to a maximum of 14)
MoS: Make the vehicle fast.
MoT: Vehicle always counts as concealed. (4+ cover)

Some of these might be a bit OP, anyone else want to take a crack at it?

+1AV is way too good for MoN, plus, it doesn't work on Land Raiders.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

jp400 wrote:Hmm..

Seems a little too complex/random. Two things people tend not to like.

Give everything a points value... make it so units/characters can take up to a max of X amount of points... and be done with it.

Just my two cents.

Most units can only buy 2 attributes, Heroes can purchase up to 5 attributes, and then may purchase randoms after that, but the sum of the randoms and the chosen attributes must equal their sacred number or less. So for example a Nurgle Marine Champion can purchase up to 5 attributes. Let's say he takes Giant Growth, Extremely Fat, and Spits Acid, Agile, and Additional Arms, and then can purchase up to 2 randoms. Or he can take 7 randoms if he wants!


In the end, though, the table is really more for casual play as, I agree, it's a little complex.
Again though, there are attributes that you can purchase that aren't random, and that is more intended for tournament play where players like to know what they're going to get

Even then, you're not forced to use the table, at all. If you want, you don't even have to use Chaotic attributes.

Thanks,
Vlad

Is there a chance of spawndom if you have a large number of rolls on the mutation table?

As for a new Chaos codex. One word: CYPHER. Why the hell was he taken out? He is the best drawn character in all of 40k, the one guy that GW's whole smoke and mirrors/ 10000 year haze style really suits. And it opened up the whole other side of chaos, a dangerous, but potentially benevolent one. Now, he is just a footnote and the forces of chaos are known more for their accessorizing than their motivations.

Silverthorne wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

jp400 wrote:Hmm..

Seems a little too complex/random. Two things people tend not to like.

Give everything a points value... make it so units/characters can take up to a max of X amount of points... and be done with it.

Just my two cents.

Most units can only buy 2 attributes, Heroes can purchase up to 5 attributes, and then may purchase randoms after that, but the sum of the randoms and the chosen attributes must equal their sacred number or less. So for example a Nurgle Marine Champion can purchase up to 5 attributes. Let's say he takes Giant Growth, Extremely Fat, and Spits Acid, Agile, and Additional Arms, and then can purchase up to 2 randoms. Or he can take 7 randoms if he wants!


In the end, though, the table is really more for casual play as, I agree, it's a little complex.
Again though, there are attributes that you can purchase that aren't random, and that is more intended for tournament play where players like to know what they're going to get

Even then, you're not forced to use the table, at all. If you want, you don't even have to use Chaotic attributes.

Thanks,
Vlad

Is there a chance of spawndom if you have a large number of rolls on the mutation table?

You can only have attributes up to your sacred number. I was toying with the idea that if you go above that, you take a LD test every turn, and if you fail it, then you become a Spawn.

As for a new Chaos codex. One word: CYPHER. Why the hell was he taken out? He is the best drawn character in all of 40k, the one guy that GW's whole smoke and mirrors/ 10000 year haze style really suits. And it opened up the whole other side of chaos, a dangerous, but potentially benevolent one. Now, he is just a footnote and the forces of chaos are known more for their accessorizing than their motivations.

I agree completely. Here are my trial rules for him. No points yet but he is really sick.

Cypher
............... WS... BS... S..... T...... W..... I...... A..... LD.... SV..........Points
Cypher..... 6...... 8...... 4..... 4...... 3...... 6...... 3...... 10.... 3+/4++...160+
• Unit Composition: Cypher
• Weapons and Wargear: Master Crafted Plasma Pistol, Master Crafted Bolt Pistol, C'tan Phase Knife
• Special Rules: Always an Independent Character, Fearless, 4+ invulnerable save, Eternal Warrior
C'tan Phase Knife: Ignores armor and invulnerable saves except against C'tan

Fallen Angels: Cypher and Fallen Angels gets Preferred Enemy: Dark Angels, likewise, Dark Angels get Preferred Enemy: Cypher and Fallen Angels. In addition, Cypher may take a retinue of Chosen which are considered "Fallen Angels". These Chosen may not take a Mark of Chaos.

Uncatchable: If Cypher is ever eliminated, roll 3d6. On a 4+, he is not considered worth any VP's or KP's


I have not added Special Characters to the codex yet as they are still being tested. (If you think Abaddon is crazy now...he is a pure monster. I am considering making him have to be in an army of 2,000 points or more as he is ridiculous!)

Here it is: This is what I want for Codex: Chaos 5th edition!

http://www.mediafire.com/?ozoiymd0zd2

:edit: Aaaand I already noticed a typo. The table is d66, not d100. My bad.