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This is something I have thought about on and off through the years, and more so recently with the addition of the Land Raider Redeemer variant, and the variants of the SM Landspeeder.

Why is it that CSM get stuck with base variants of the vehicles? Surely, some enterprising Chaos Lord would have seen the tactical advantages of deviating from the norm when it comes to their vehicles. I can't believe that none of them would just be "happy" with their same old,same old Rhinos,Preds, and Land Raiders.


Note: I did a quick search to see if this topic had been brought up before, didn't find anything. And if this is in the wrong section, would someone move it to where it might belong?

Chaos isn't allowed variety. That's why their Codex is the way it is.

CSM also have Vindis.

But most importantly, CSM have Defilers.

They're supposed to be cut off from any new vehicles, although it looks like they forgot about the traitor version of Ad Mech who would probably give them some new stuff >_>

H.B.M.C. wrote:Chaos isn't allowed variety. That's why their Codex is the way it is.

There is only one Chaos god now, Jyggalag*
Everything has to be identical and grey






*Spoilers for Oblivion.

Well we used to get marks for vehicles - sadly no longer. I look forward to the next codex, as the current CSM was at the very pointy end of the 'dumbing down phase' - simplicity at the expense of variety.

Looking at the current SM and IG codexes, they have simplicity (single list, no weird limitations), but they still have variety with loads of vehicle options.

But I am a hopeless optimist!

IMO, the SM list is pretty limiting compared to CSM:
- 2 Troops vs 6
- no Marks

Yes, SMs get more Transport options, but their choices simply aren't as powerful compared what CSM has available.

All else being equal, CSM's specialists are better at what they do, but SM mech up better.

CSM have loads of variants of vehicles. Astartes have the Predator, the CSM have the spiky Predator. Astartes have the Land Raider, the CSM have the spiky Land Raider. Ad nausea.

I think it would be cool if chaos could get the damn dread claw.

Admittedly the Chaos Codex was released before Space Marines got a lot of these extra vehicles and due to fluff the CSM's should generally have less 'newer' technology (such as Plasma Cannons), also a lot of the CSM vehicles have extra options such as the dreads and possible useful weapons such as havoc launchers...

However, yeah I would also like to see more variety in the Chaos options (although not to quite the same extent of the SM's)...

What shaman said is what i think we need out of everything that SM have.

And give up our Defilers?

No thanks.

Forgot about Vindis, Wasn't really counting the Defiler, because it's a new vehicle type. I'm just thinking it would be cool to have a Chaos Land Raider variant is all. IDK, something along the lines of, but, different from the Redeemer/Crusader. Extra troop capacity, different weapons systems....

No john i was saying if anything out of the SM arsenal was to come our way than those would be my choice. OTOH if something was to come our way from them and give up something then i would say keep it. Defiler good me use much.

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, the SM list is pretty limiting compared to CSM:
- 2 Troops vs 6
- no Marks

Yes, SMs get more Transport options, but their choices simply aren't as powerful compared what CSM has available.

All else being equal, CSM's specialists are better at what they do, but SM mech up better.

I think you're cutting the comparison very narrowly. CSM have good specialists, but it does little to add variety to their list. Overall this version of the Chaos Codex has fewer options and less variety than the SM book. And while Chaos has 6 troop choices, their codex represents a broader number of armies which necessitates it, but overall demands more than it has recieved.

The fact that Chaos got the Defiler was appropriate but it doesn't go far enough. Why aren't their defiler variants, or chaos dread variants, or a distinctively chaos predator? A few demonic possesed vehicles here and there would go a long way to close the gap. Even more since they separated Codex Demons from chaos, Chaos Space Marines need more character more than ever.

While GW has their marine love thing going, it'd be nice to see more uniquely chaos models. It'd be nice to one day see a chaos rhino/predator/etc kit that wasn't just glue some "evil" symbols on.

The specialists add a lot of variety, IMO. Take them out, along with Possessed, Spawn, Oblits and Defilers and Deamon whatnots, and I would be more likely to agree. But you're kind of missing the point. Chaos is about having specialists. That's how they fight.

The notion that Chaos demands "more" is odd. They're still SMs at the core, and they can specialize. That's the nature of the army. But fewer options? I don't see it. You can be super tough with PMs, or extra fighty with Berzerkers, or tailor with Marks. That's a lot of options that you're just glossing over. Chaos options are structured differently from SM options, that's all. That's why they're different armies.

Defilers have options, you know. You can load them with guns or tool them for HtH. They're at least as flexible as the Rhino-Razorback split, moreso as they have HtH capability.

CSM Dreads can also be full HtH builds, with good variety. And the Defiler *is* the iconic possessed vehicle, right?

CSM have received at least as much love as the vanilla SMs, IMO. Just different kinds of love. And good for GW for finally making distinctions between SM and CSM that people can easily recognize.

Count the total number of unit entries and special charaters in each book. Chaos has enough fewer that you could add 4 or 5. The Chaos book attempts to represent the multitude of chaos in one book that is equivalent to the numbers of loyal marines covered in 5 or 6 books. I don't think chaos should necessarily recieve that treatment, but they deserve something directly equal to the basic space marine codex. That is where I think there is an inherent demand for more. In the least there is room for more distinctly chaos options and vehicles.

Going from the variaty of viable lists of the previous edition to the one or two lists shows how much chaos has been tied down and limited. While I agreed that the previous book was a bit much, GW over did it and threw out too much.

Given the current trends the best and most likely fix would be to add units and unit options to fill the gaps.

Now take those counts and divide by dollar sales.

Chaos is way ahead.

agree with aka_mythos

I'm pretty sure that the unit choices in the Chaos codex(barring Fabius Bile) aren't decided upon which special character you take...unlike the Space Marines codex.

That's a pretty big thing, in my opinion.

Chaos should be treated as a fully unique army, but really get treated slightly better than a marine spin off codex.

I don't think the codex needs much. Fix the broken units and adding the god specific lesser demons would get the codex 90% of the way to where it should be. Beyond that, its just asking for a uniquely chaos variant of a vehicle. Something as simple as a Predator or Land Raider that is bristling with reaper autocannons or something similar with some sort of demonic hull.

What gets me most is that I don't think GW has really done a proper chaos vehicle yet. Their tanks are Imperial with slapped on panels. The Defiler just kinda feel like a vehicle with pre-slapped on panels. Why can't chaos for example have a "chaos rhino" that mimic the design of the older rhino more closely to paint a picture of it being more ancient. Why can't the models have some mild, yet moldable, textures to convey age and mild chaos "yuck". Being emblazend with arrows is fine but at this point, other armies have recieved some real refinements, why can't chaos?

The problem I have with a "uniquely Chaos variant" of a vehicle is that it'd have to be an ancient vehicle. Remember that the vast majority of the Chaos equipment is Heresy era, or whatever they can loot and corrupt. That excludes a large number of stuff.

Predator with demon enfused heavy flamers? Or a Nurgle rhino variant that sprays something nasty? Or a demon dreadnought that is to a dreadnought, what a soul grinder is to a defiler; Obliterator dreadnought?

I'm sure if people focused on what could be rather than "if" it should be people could come up with many more, that would make sense and be very flavorful.

Problem is how to represent some of those things to avoid the beardy folk who'd abuse things that aren't really visible.

Personally? If I were to redo the Chaos Codex?

I'd alter the entire book. Starting with Lost and the Damned being back in, and Traitor/Chaos Marines requiring at least two Cultist/Traitor Guard units to be taken.

But then again, I'd do the same with the actual Space Marine codex and Scouts.

A nurgly sprayer is a simple as something similar to a chem-cannon. Predator with fancy flamers isn't hard. Oblit. dread would be armed with a variety of weapons which it could only fire a limited selection of in a turn while being tough.

Seeing as demons are going to be their own thing for a while, I think bringing in mortals is fine. I agree traitors are a good example of that. Why can't something like blood pact be used as the chaos equivalent to scouts, combining some of the roles of Marine Scouts with IG storm troopers and vets. Then you just need something like mutants and you bring in elements of chaos' corruption.

Well, I'd say Blood Pact would need be Elites just going off the fluff.

But yeah. I'd far rather see restrictions limiting the amount of Power Armor on the field in ALL armies(Yes. Marine variants included. I always thought the Black Templars were a great example of this with the mixed squads) so I can actually run my fluff Guard army rather than the Valkyrie of Doom/Mech combo platter.

In an army of elite genetically engineered demon possesed super men, what is a well trained angry human? If a marine tactical squad were an option for the Imperial guard they would be an elite choice. But just like in the Sisters of Battle and Grey Knight lists, storm troopers are troops not elites. Then again plenty of the non-codex marine codices have scouts as elite. My point is you could justify them either way.

If codex chaos had been written after codex space marine chances are the 4 god specific units would have been, "select a character... count god specific unit as troops".

Stormtroopers are elites. Your point is moot!

@aka: I generally agree with all of that, but I think it'd be even more complex:

- A Marked Lord (in Power Armor) makes Chosen with the same Mark Troops
- A Marked Lord in Terminator Armor makes Terminators with the same Mark Scoring
- A Marked Lord on a Bike makes Bikers with the same Mark Scoring
- A Marked Lord with a Jump Pack makes Raptors with the same Mark Scoring

- A Marked Daemon Prince allows Lesser Daemons to buy an Icon of the same Mark
- A Marked Daemon Prince with Wings allows Lesser Daemons to buy an Icon of the same Mark if they also buy Wings for +XX pts/unit

- A Marked Sorceror makes Possessed of the same Mark Scoring and lets them choose their power

- Kharne (and *only* Kharne) makes KBs Troops
- Ahriman (and *only* Ahriman) makes TS Troops
- Typhus (and *only* Typhus) makes PM Troops (but *not* MoN Termies)
- Lucius (and *only* Lucius) makes NM Troops

- Abbadon makes *all* Infantry (and Jump Infantry) Scoring


Something like this.

This way, there are lots of rules and CSMs are forced into fielding particular models and Special Characters, so everybody is happy.

Kanluwen wrote:Stormtroopers are elites. Your point is moot!

Except in an army where they are surrounded by even more elite, like sisters of battle or grey knights. If a bloodpact type unit were an elite choice, that would say that they're more specialized, better trained, or rarer than Deathguard, Thousand Sons, etc. In the context of a traitor guard army bloodpact would be elites. In the context of the more specialized and more elite traitor legions they could be justified as troops. Blood pact in a chaos space marine army would likely resemble marine scouts more than stormtroopers but would likely be somewhere in between. Just like Marine scouts, they could be justified as either elites or troops, depending on stats, weapons, and abilities.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
- Abbadon makes *all* Infantry (and Jump Infantry) Scoring

I like all of them except this one... doesn't sit quite right. I think Abbadon would do something more like granting all basic chaos marine squads some ability or effect.

I could see Abbadon functioning more like Belial, and allowing Chaos Terminator squads as Troops.

See, the thing about Blood Pact in the context of Traitor Legions is...well, Traitor Legions don't have the same "specialists" that standard Astartes Chapters do.

I'll admit, they DO have squads that have grown into certain roles(tankbustin', shock assaults, things like that)...but with the Blood Pact their specialist role is pretty clearly defined. They're infiltrators and shock troops, who use surprise to their fullest advantage.