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aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
- Abbadon makes *all* Infantry (and Jump Infantry) Scoring

I like all of them except this one... doesn't sit quite right. I think Abbadon would do something more like granting all basic chaos marine squads some ability or effect.

Abby is a clone of Horus - he's the man. He's uber. Making everything Scoring is uber:
- Cult Marines, Possessed, & Termies? Check!
- Raptors? Check!
- Havocs & Oblits? Check!
This is a hugely strong ability, and it fits with Abby pulling all the pieces together as Black Legion.


Buffing basic CSM isn't really desirable from a "classic" CSM POV because CSM are supposed to be built around their specialists.
But I suppose Huron Blackheart could get away with this, being a recent convert:

- Huron allows units of 10+ non-Marked Chaos Marines to take an extra Special Weapon for +5 pts.

In the space marine codex, special characters give out things like outflank and fleeting. That level of freebee "buff" is what I'm talking about. Maybe giving all chaos space marines preferred enemey: Space marines... or something.

My problem with making all these other units scoring is that "scoring unit" system was created, partially, to balance armies with a few elite hard to kill units with the armies fielding the hoards of troops; to promote the use of troops, and refocus the game around the core of these armies. Allowing an excessive number of options to be scoring kinda tosses that out. For marines, even the fact that Sternguard can be scoring is on the verge of swinging the pendulum back to an emphasis of power untis.

SM is notionally about "tactics", hence Outflanking and Fleet.

CSM is inherently about killy Specialists, which is why I made it all about Troops / Scoring.

Besides, Sternguard aren't the only shift - Captain on Bike is in there, too. And then you have the DA / BA variants. CSM simply turns it up another notch by linking it to Marks.

JohnHwangDD wrote:CSM is inherently about killy Specialists, which is why I made it all about Troops / Scoring.

I don't see those things as connected. If we are to say chaos are "killy specialists" shouldn't Abbadons effect on his army be something that effects their ability to kill. Scoring is a representation of a units capacity to secure and hold; fast attacks, elites, and heavy support don't score because they'd be too valuable of an asset to leave to garrison a strategic point.

Abbadon is something of a genious, so I think it's OK. Besides, GW needs to move that model!

He's a killy specialist genius. I don't think there is anything wrong with him making a specific type of unit scoring, but "all infantry" is too broad.

I think we've deviated enough. Isn't this thread about chaos vehicles?

I think more demon engines would be good. If Blight drones weren't Nurgle specific I think they'd really be perfect.

aka_mythos wrote:He's a killy specialist genius. I don't think there is anything wrong with him making a specific type of unit scoring, but "all infantry" is too broad.

I agree, although Personally I thought a lot of JHDD's suggestions weren't suitable, I'd like Legion/god specific troops and daemons by all means yeah (eg. Night Lord's have Raptors as troops) but one thing I like about the SM special characters in comparison to the CSM special characters is that the CSM ones are (rightly so) more selfish and dont confer bonuses to others but are instead uber killy. Chaos Lords are egotistical maniacs, much more so than inspirational leaders! Im not saying they shouldnt confer special rules to some of those around them, but I dont think they should be quite as powerful as the ones JHDD is suggesting. Maybe instead making one squad of ____ with the same mark troops, rather than all!

on topic:
In terms of vehicles, I would like to see more range, but not simply copying the SM variants, maybe like a whole new Chaos Landraider, Noise Marine vehicles and the like. Also, if you checked Lexicanum you would see different variants of defilers (eg. Bezerkers riding defilers) for each god! Now that I would like to see!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Abby is a clone of Horus - he's the man. He's uber. Making everything Scoring is uber:
- Cult Marines, Possessed, & Termies? Check!
- Raptors? Check!
- Havocs & Oblits? Check!
This is a hugely strong ability,

Yes, it certainly is. wheyhey too strong!

JohnHwangDD wrote:
- Huron allows units of 10+ non-Marked Chaos Marines to take an extra Special Weapon for +5 pts.

now that I feel is much more suitable, and along the lines of what I'd like to see, rather than such wide-reaching powers.

All IMO though...

Oof new Raptors....so lame compared to what they were
The new 'dex feels like the forces of chaos have been sitting with their thumbs up their asses for 10k years...stupid stupid. I love chaos but they need more love

Imho Chaos for all intents and purposes should have taken a different evolutionary route from their Imperial brethren with their vehicles, weapons and equipment. Only major reason for Chaos to continue using Imperial knockoffs is lack of manufacturing capability of their own and what they do have can not be shut down long enough to retool for anything better. Personally I think there's also more than a few loyalist worlds supplying the various number of traitor legions and or guard due to them being them tainted, or untainted but forced into a blackmail/tribute (protection racket).

Rubberanvil wrote:Imho Chaos for all intents and purposes should have taken a different evolutionary route from their Imperial brethren with their vehicles, weapons and equipment. Only major reason for Chaos to continue using Imperial knockoffs is lack of manufacturing capability of their own and what they do have can not be shut down long enough to retool for anything better. Personally I think there's also more than a few loyalist worlds supplying the various number of traitor legions and or guard due to them being them tainted, or untainted but forced into a blackmail/tribute (protection racket).

This is kind of what I was meaning when I made the initial post. Surely, the forces of Chaos have captured some manufacturing facilities somewhere, sometime..... I'm not necessarily meaning just having access to the SM knockoffs, but having developed entirely new variants of their own vehicles. A Slaanesh-y style Predator with sonic weaponry would be in interesting concept...sure, you could model it and use it as a standard Pred, but, where's the fun in that. Maybe some new types of sonic weaponry available to it, something we haven't seen before.

Rubberanvil wrote:Only major reason for Chaos to continue using Imperial knockoffs is because GW is too busy cranking out SM book after SM book

Fixed something in your post for you, lol.

In the fluff, the traitor legions brought half of the Adeptus Mechanicus and a significant fleet of factory ships with them into the Eye of Terror. The Adeptus Mechanicus who went with chaos, were ones who specialized in biological weapons and the integration of flesh with machine. Hence things like obliterators.

Obliterators and Defilers are the most recent mechanical creations of the chaos legions. They are boththe integration of daemonic entities into machines. They give the only real glimpse into how chaos can "corrupt a titan" or other machine. It is a theme that should be carried over into either a number of the current vehicles, any new vehicles, or both.

I would propose Chaos recieve an upgrade for all the current "imperial knock offs" that represents the daemonic infusement into their vehicles on as profound a level as seen with defilers. Meanwhile they should recieve additional demon engines.