The title is rather hyperbolic, but seriously-- Lash of Submission is probably the most overrated thing in the game at present. Fortunately, if you can see through the hype, Lash really isn't very good at all.
What's strong in 5th Edition? Mech. Despite also being overrated, mechanized units and vehicles are still very good with the improved transport rules and vehicle damage tables. Many strong armies field several mechanized units or go completely mech. Such armies are extremely resilient to Lash, as their units cannot be Lashed while safe inside their transports. If a transport is indeed destroyed, the unit inside is likely going to die regardless, as the enemy can bring all his anti-infantry weapons to bear on the unfortunate squad; such weapons would otherwise be useless against a fully mechanized force. Lash doesn't add much in this situation. Later in the game, as transports get taken out and more units dismount, Lash becomes more valuable; however, it still can't push a unit in a transport off an objective, prevent a skimmer from boosting up to contest, or move a vehicle out of cover. In other words, Lash isn't good against a great deal of units on the battlefield. Though it's certainly powerful against the rest, these units are becoming less common and other weapons and options can also deal with them.
So why do people use Lash? Two reasons. First, it's a good counter to certain gimmicky "uber" units, as well as quite powerful against nonmechanized or semi-mech armies. Second, lash makes a great decoy, even against mechanized armies; its vastly overblown reputation causes even an otherwise savvy opponent to misallocate resources in hopes of taking out the Lash. Further, it is in the best interest of players that use Lash to contribute to that reputation, as it increases the power of their decoy unit. The more you fear Lash, the more likely you'll be distracted by it and make incorrect decisions, so people who use Lash are, if they are behaving rationally, quite likely to promote it as much as possible.
The counters are simple. First, be mech. Second, ignore the Lash. Sure, Lash might get your guys into position to eat plasma from an Obliterator Cult and die; but those guys would die anyway. If you're out of your transport, you're basically already dead; I consider my Tactical units to be "killed" the moment their transports eat it. Focus on the real threats, and avoid the Lash decoy. If you're really having trouble, consider incorporating psychic defenses into your list, but remember-- Lash is nowhere near as good as its reputation would indicate.
By alot of accounts the most popular army going to the 'ard boyz finals is dual lash CSM and x9 oblits. 9 lascannons do a pretty good job of Un-mechanizing an enemy army....
Ignoring Lash is probably the biggest mistake you can make. Even if you are fully mechanized, all the Chaos player has to do is blow up the vehicles and then the Lash becomes dangerous again. You need to have some sort of psychic defense, hunt the sorcerer, or make sure you constantly block his LOS.
Also, if the sorcerer/prince can survive to the end game, the lash becomes critical in objective grabbing/contesting.
And for shaky anecdotal evidence, every game I have played with Lash, the lash is really only useful one or two times throughout the game, but those times are always critical/game breaking.
whitedragon wrote:Also, if the sorcerer/prince can survive to the end game, the lash becomes critical in objective grabbing/contesting.
And for shaky anecdotal evidence, every game I have played with Lash, the lash is really only useful one or two times throughout the game, but those times are always critical/game breaking.
This.
Lashing people up for templates < Cheese-grating bikes into terrain so they can't turbo-boost and have to take dangerous terrain tests < moving units into/out of assault range <<<< Throwing a dismounted troop unit off an objective at the bottom of Turn 5+.
To be honest, the view that 'if my unit is out of it's transport, it's dead' is very silly unless you play IG. (it makes a tiny bit of sense for SM too, if you're heavy on tac squads) Most armies need to get their troops out of their transports to get some use out of them. Take Mechdar (largely viewed as worth taking to a tournament). Wave serpents have no firing points. So, if you're going to melta that Land Raider into oblivion with Fire Dragons, you have to get out of your transport. Ooops, they're dead! (okay, Fire Dragons are a bad example. Imagine it with Bladestorming DAs instead) Take Orks, who mech up only to get a turn or two of 12" movement before assaulting. Take Sisters, whose strength lies in Acts of Faith while in Rapid-fire Bolter range. Take tau, who can only mech up some of their units, and still get out of their transports to shoot.
The only army that can viably stay in their transports the whole game is Mechvet IG, so it's silly to say that meching up is a hard counter to lash. Yeah, it makes your life better, especially in the early turns, but it still causes you problems. Even if the enemy only kills one tac squad that fell out of their rhino, maybe he lashed them into assault range of some Berzerkers, who then got an extra 6" charge and d6" of consolidation towards your lines.
Lash causes problems for any list, plain and simple, and not every list has access to counters. Sure, Imperials can all carry psychic hoods, but what about poor Necrons? their psychic defense is 'pray'. Same with Tau.
It is the ability of the psychic power to make your footsloggers move towards a a flying monstrous creature. It essentially gives it fleet of foot, with the added bonus of lining up for flamers moving out of cover etc.
Basically the main theme behind dual lash lists is that LoS is the best power that a daemon prince can take, and DPs rock socks.
It's not the players that rely on lash you should be afraid of.
It's the players that rely on the army to win, but uses lash as a means to an end.
___________
Saying that everybody is mech is too much of a sweeping comment as a rationale to Lash being trash.
People to get out of their rides.
Not all armies have access to vehicles, or even points efficient ones.
Not everyone spends the cash needed to rehaul their lists, and can still be competitive without succuming to GW's mech fanboy fever.
I have to agree that lash is a very effective power. It is one of the few powers in the game that allow you to manuever your opponents troops. With my old SM army I always took an inquisitor so I could have a calidus assassin and get to move some unit of my opponent's pre-game and get some las cannon shots off at it.
With lash, you can potentially use this power 6 times a game. 12 if going dual-lash. You can also use it to move your own troops up as mentioned by previous posters.
Many people have problems against lash. I don't. You may think that it is difficult to beat because it's big, and it's scary, and you know you should just shoot at it but you can't. You let your fear control you instead of just ignoring them and winning the game despite their marginal effects.
The only reason you lose to lash it because you let yourself. Open your eyes, sheeple.
Well done for catching up. People have been saying that lash isnt as good in a heavy mech environment for months now. The smart CSM players have been changing thier lists to accomodate this.
gardeth wrote:By alot of accounts the most popular army going to the 'ard boyz finals is dual lash CSM and x9 oblits. 9 lascannons do a pretty good job of Un-mechanizing an enemy army....
a) 'Ard Boyz is unrepresentative of standard play
b) The good part of that army is the oblits, not the lash.
whitedragon wrote:Ignoring Lash is probably the biggest mistake you can make. Even if you are fully mechanized, all the Chaos player has to do is blow up the vehicles and then the Lash becomes dangerous again. You need to have some sort of psychic defense, hunt the sorcerer, or make sure you constantly block his LOS.
No you don't. You need to stop him from blowing up your vehicles.
Gornall wrote:Lashing people up for templates < Cheese-grating bikes into terrain so they can't turbo-boost and have to take dangerous terrain tests < moving units into/out of assault range <<<< Throwing a dismounted troop unit off an objective at the bottom of Turn 5+.
Hence, you should claim objectives with mounted troops, or just go second.
Orkestra wrote:Lash causes problems for any list, plain and simple, and not every list has access to counters. Sure, Imperials can all carry psychic hoods, but what about poor Necrons? their psychic defense is 'pray'.
Necrons are awful. They are probably the least competitive Codex.
The Revelator wrote:Basically the main theme behind dual lash lists is that LoS is the best power that a daemon prince can take, and DPs rock socks.
ph34r wrote:The only reason you lose to lash it because you let yourself. Open your eyes, sheeple.
Sanctjud wrote:It's not the players that rely on lash you should be afraid of.
It's the players that rely on the army to win, but uses lash as a means to an end.
I have little issue with Lash - and I play Tyranids.
That said, it is a great power.
Writing it off will cost you games at best, tournements at worst.
Obviously, you should know what Lash does and plan around it. However, in terms of target priority, Lash Princes are strictly below Obliterators and the like. Many people don't seem to realize that, which is what this post is for.
Gornall wrote:Lashing people up for templates < Cheese-grating bikes into terrain so they can't turbo-boost and have to take dangerous terrain tests < moving units into/out of assault range <<<< Throwing a dismounted troop unit off an objective at the bottom of Turn 5+.
Hence, you should claim objectives with mounted troops, or just go second.
That works great in theory, as long as you can actually take transports and they don't get blown out from under you (I'm assuming that the Lash player knows how important popping transports is), and/or you win the roll to choose whether you go first or second.
Don't get me wrong, I think it is far from an IWIN button, and I also think that Warptime is as good if not better than Lash in a lot of situations. However, in the hands of skilled player Lash is a very useful tool that can swing battles when used correctly.
Yeah. Like I said in the first post, I used a lot of hyperbole. Lash isn't trash; Possessed or Chaos Spawn are trash. It's merely extremely overrated. And you shouldn't ignore lash completely; you should just deal with more important elements of the army first. Lash, by and large, isn't the main threat, unless you're dealing with a very poor army, in which case you should be fine.
gardeth wrote:
By alot of accounts the most popular army going to the 'ard boyz finals is dual lash CSM and x9 oblits. 9 lascannons do a pretty good job of Un-mechanizing an enemy army....
a) 'Ard Boyz is unrepresentative of standard play
How you can say that? What is your basis? Have you ever plaeyd in the Ard Boyz?
2,500 point games are abnormal. Army lists greatly differ at the 2,500 point level and armies are possible that would not be viable in lower points games. 'Ard Boyz scenarios are also abnormal, and provide significant alterations to the core gameplay. Hence, 'Ard Boyz is significantly abnormal and unrepresentative of standard play.
Similarly, the units allowed in the Adepticon Gladiator are radically different. Normal games don't allow Forge World units or super-heavy tanks. Hence, the Adepticon Gladiator is unrepresentative of standard play.
First, I'd like know why a power that's good in a 2500pt no-holds barred tournament would be less good when it's just as easily taken at 1850. If somebody could break that film down for me, that'd be great.
Second, I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. there is still very little reason not to take lash if you're taking princes. Warptime is good, but against most opponents you dont' really need to improve a DP's combat power. Lash still allows more tactical options than any other psychic power in the game, and for a cheap price. It also has amazing synergy with oblits, which is another top five unit in the codex. An upgrade on a good unit that makes another good unit better? It may be over rated but it's still enormously good and game breaking.
Also, a fully mechanized army is going to have a lot less long range shooting, meaning a DP is going to survive a lot longer.
Finally, how exactly is a player supposed to stop their opponent from blowing up their vehicles? Prayer? Asking nicely?
Polonius wrote:First, I'd like know why a power that's good in a 2500pt no-holds barred tournament would be less good when it's just as easily taken at 1850. If somebody could break that film down for me, that'd be great.
As I already said, Lash isn't the good part of that army. In any case, the results from that tournament have little to no bearing on standard play.
Polonius wrote:Second, I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. there is still very little reason not to take lash if you're taking princes.
Lash is a fancy psychological trick that has some in-game power. I personally think other Princes can be better.
Polonius wrote:It may be over rated but it's still enormously good and game breaking.
Nope. It's decent, but not even a mandatory upgrade in competitive play, much less a game breaking one.
Polonius wrote:Also, a fully mechanized army is going to have a lot less long range shooting, meaning a DP is going to survive a lot longer.
I'm not sure what lead you to this conclusion.
Polonius wrote:Finally, how exactly is a player supposed to stop their opponent from blowing up their vehicles? Prayer? Asking nicely?
Focusing on the units that actually kill your tanks instead of Lash Princes? Using cover? Maneuvering? These things aren't exactly revolutionary or unique elements of the game.
"2,500 point games are abnormal. Army lists greatly differ at the 2,500 point level and armies are possible that would not be viable in lower points games. 'Ard Boyz scenarios are also abnormal, and provide significant alterations to the core gameplay. Hence, 'Ard Boyz is significantly abnormal and unrepresentative of standard play."
Its not really true and even moreso now that only troops count as scoring units. I think you will find that players that have reached the finals have the same percentage of troops at 1850 as compared to 2500. The FOC itself keeps this in check... for example, you cannot field four heavy support choices.
"Similarly, the units allowed in the Adepticon Gladiator are radically different. Normal games don't allow Forge World units or super-heavy tanks. Hence, the Adepticon Gladiator is unrepresentative of standard play."
Why do you even bring that up in this discussion. It has NOTHING to do with the Ard Boyz.
Green Blow Fly wrote:
"2,500 point games are abnormal. Army lists greatly differ at the 2,500 point level and armies are possible that would not be viable in lower points games. 'Ard Boyz scenarios are also abnormal, and provide significant alterations to the core gameplay. Hence, 'Ard Boyz is significantly abnormal and unrepresentative of standard play."
Its not really true and even moreso now that only troops count as scoring units. I think you will find that players that have reached the finals have the same percentage of troops at 1850 as compared to 2500. The FOC itself keeps this in check... for example, you cannot field four heavy support choices.
If you can't see why playing in a game with radically different points limits and objectives is radically different from normal play, I don't really know what to say.
Green Blow Fly wrote:"Similarly, the units allowed in the Adepticon Gladiator are radically different. Normal games don't allow Forge World units or super-heavy tanks. Hence, the Adepticon Gladiator is unrepresentative of standard play."
Why do you even bring that up in this discussion. It has NOTHING to do with the Ard Boyz.
G
It's an example of an analogous situation. Both the 'Ard Boyz and the Adepticon Gladiator are tournaments that use nonstandard rules and are unrepresentative of standard play.
Anyone who plays in the current GT circuit will be very familiar with multiple objective missions. You are making a mountain out of the proverbial molehill.
Polonius wrote:First, I'd like know why a power that's good in a 2500pt no-holds barred tournament would be less good when it's just as easily taken at 1850. If somebody could break that film down for me, that'd be great.
As I already said, Lash isn't the good part of that army. In any case, the results from that tournament have little to no bearing on standard play.
How is that different from any other results? I'm not a big of fan of buying theory based on a few data points, but that's still no reason to eliminate the only evidence we have.
Polonius wrote:Second, I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. there is still very little reason not to take lash if you're taking princes.
Lash is a fancy psychological trick that has some in-game power. I personally think other Princes can be better.
So, the point of this thread is to tell us that you think other princes are better than lash prince. Done and done.
Polonius wrote:It may be over rated but it's still enormously good and game breaking.
Nope. It's decent, but not even a mandatory upgrade in competitive play, much less a game breaking one.
I don't' mean game breaking in the meta game sense, but rather the "Hey I just lashed your 5 guys off the objective and into charge range of my prince" style of game breaking.
Polonius wrote:Also, a fully mechanized army is going to have a lot less long range shooting, meaning a DP is going to survive a lot longer.
I'm not sure what lead you to this conclusion.
Basic math. The more points spent of transports, the fewer spend on guns. Outside of IG, most mech armies can only shoot a few weapons out of the old hatches, and that means what guns there are won't be shooting if they're staying buttoned up.
Polonius wrote:Finally, how exactly is a player supposed to stop their opponent from blowing up their vehicles? Prayer? Asking nicely?
Focusing on the units that actually kill your tanks instead of Lash Princes? Using cover? Maneuvering? These things aren't exactly revolutionary or unique elements of the game.
That's going to be harder. In my experience, the weakness to the Lash prince isn't the inability to do anything useful, it's that four wounds at T5 with a 3+5/++ isn't as durable as you'd hope. It's easier to kill that with most weapons than it is to kill Oblits with a 2+/5++ that are invariably in cover.
Yes, certain mech builds aren't going to fear the lash prince much. If i'm rocking three vendettas, those princes are going down by turn 2 or 3.
Green Blow Fly wrote:Anyone who plays in the current GT circuit will be very familiar with multiple objective missions. You are making a mountain out of the proverbial molehill.
1. 'Ard boyz has no bearing on "standard" gaming - anyone thats takes a 1500 point list and adds 1000 points to it will lose. You can pull of some amazing things with 2500 points to work with, and you cannot equate what is good at 2500 to what is good at 1750.
2. Anyone who thinks "lash is trash" has either never played a serious lash list run by a good player or is just delusional. Lash is beast. It is probably the best all comers build running right now. If you kill the princes early, your army will be tattered because you ocused too much attention on them early and allowed the rest of the army to do work. I you DON'T kill them early, the oblits and support will have all of your units out o their transports and they will be lashed. It is a hard list to beat, plain and simple.
All of this theory hammer is really amusing. "I would keep im from destroying my vehicles through movement, cover, placement, blah blah" - isn't that what everyone does every game? How often does it really work? You seem to forget that your opponent is simultaneously working to deny you that ability.
You don't have to like it, but a well run dual lash list is hard to beat. The new incarnations using Abbey are similarly wicked. It is a potent power that can win games.
Inigo Montoya wrote:You don't have to like it, but a well run dual lash list is hard to beat. The new incarnations using Abbey are similarly wicked. It is a potent power that can win games.
Sure, it's hard to beat-- but not thanks to the Lash!
Inigo Montoya wrote:You don't have to like it, but a well run dual lash list is hard to beat. The new incarnations using Abbey are similarly wicked. It is a potent power that can win games.
Sure, it's hard to beat-- but not thanks to the Lash!
Lash is very powerful. We all know you can use it to clump enemy units so that are seriously doused by the Oblits. You can also use it to pull enemy units out of cover and into assault range. Some armies have no real counters other than mech. Mech in my opinion is the best counter and you mentioned that in the original post. Lash is a psychological burden the opponent as they have to make sure they use their movement phases to counter it... It seriously affects how the opponent moves their units because sloppiness will hurt them. If the opponent has to think harder the strain can lead to mistakes. You can't simply ignore lash.
Since mission deployment requires setup along the long table edges lash can pretty much see across the table and effectively has unlimited range. That makes it even more powerful.
Some armies can easily counter it such as eldar but still you can't just simply ignore it.
I agree that lash is a TAD bit over rated, however I will not deny its power. Whenever I run Abaddon I ALWAYS run a Lash Sorcerer in a rhino. The ability to lash out of your rhino, moving stuff out of cover or simultaneously off points, is awesome. Plus feeding Abaddon makes him happy!
Obviously someone got a pretty good stomping from it once and is pretty sore about it
Saying Lash is overrated isn't the clearest way to quantify things. I mean, how do you think it's rated? Do you think people consider it an automatic win every time? Yes, that's overrated.
But I don't think people think that.
What I do think, is that it's one of the most powerful psychic powers in the game, probably the most powerful. I'd have to sit down and think on it to be sure, but off the top of my head, nothing comes close.
I know that a lot of people, or at the very least Mosg, agree.
The thing about Lash, is that it can really grow with the cleverness of the player. If somebody is obsessed with trying to bunch units up and pie plate them, and does that to the exclusion of anything more useful, then yeah, it's going to seem overrated.
But consider this: Every turn, we move units, we shoot with our units, we assault with our units. If we assume the average army has about 8 units, and the average game has about 6 turns, that's 144 "choices" we make per game.
Winning a game is all about making more of those 144 turn out to be "right" than the other guy.
So, what does Lash do? Let's assume a dual Lash list gets to use the power about 6 times a game. What Lash does, is effectively take away your opponent's movement, and turn it into your movement. It does that about 6 times per game. So, now you've got only 138 choices to win the game, while the Lash player has 150.
That translates into about 9% more. So, basically he's got 9% more opportunities to win the game than you do. That's not an auto-win button, but it's a pretty serious advantage.
Also, that's probably somewhat of an understatement. In a lot of situations, it's not possible to move, shoot and assault in the same turn. A lot of the time the choice is between those three options, rather than what to do with all of them.
That's all just metagame thinking, though. What it still comes down to is how good your opponent is. Just as skill is measured in how intelligently you move your own units, Lash means it can also be measured in how intelligently you move your opponents units.
What makes the Lash lists strong?
I'd answer that this way: a Lash Sorc costs 125 points. An Oblit costs 75. So, it's 3.33 Oblits for 2 Sorcs. If you could take a Lash list and replace two Lash Sorcs with the hypothetical 3.33 Oblits, would that be a stronger list?
I'd say it would absolutely not be.
Now, if you could drop a pair of Oblits and get another Lash Sorc, would that be a stronger list?
Fetterkey wrote:2,500 point games are abnormal. Army lists greatly differ at the 2,500 point level and armies are possible that would not be viable in lower points games. 'Ard Boyz scenarios are also abnormal, and provide significant alterations to the core gameplay. Hence, 'Ard Boyz is significantly abnormal and unrepresentative of standard play.
This is the worst debating that I have seen on here for a while. You have taken the affectation of someone who knows better but have illustrated several points of ignorance simply in the way your argument is structured:
You first argue from a competative gaming stand point, and then disallow the best example of competative play (Gloss Varnish Boyz) in this game as "support" for your argument. If anything a larger points limit only helps your argument as the limitation on Dual Lash is pretty straight forwards <<<<(2) though the points limit increasing only helps add mech and options to kill said lashers.
You also redefine your argument to state that it is overrated in "general" play and then go on to say "every player has dropped big $'s to make their army mech for 5th".
Get an undeviating argument or discussion point, or be prepared to not be taken seriously...unless this is trolling in which case: "Good fishing"
BeefyG wrote:You first argue from a competative gaming stand point, and then disallow the best example of competative play (Gloss Varnish Boyz) in this game as "support" for your argument.
As I explained, 'Ard Boyz is not actually the best example of competitive play. In fact, it has very little to do with normal competitive play.
BeefyG wrote:You also redefine your argument to state that it is overrated in "general" play
That's really my whole argument. My title is a joke.
BeefyG wrote:and then go on to say "every player has dropped big $'s to make their army mech for 5th".
When did I say that?
Phryxis wrote:What I do think, is that it's one of the most powerful psychic powers in the game, probably the most powerful. I'd have to sit down and think on it to be sure, but off the top of my head, nothing comes close.
Fortune.
Phryxis wrote:Now, if you could drop a pair of Oblits and get another Lash Sorc, would that be a stronger list?
sourclams wrote:Why isn't this thread whining about Jaws of the World Wolf yet?
Probably because Jaws really isn't that good. The caster is slow and fragile compared to the DP, and the power can only be used for one thing, and that one thing is not terribly hard to counter at all. Lash does not fail in these ways.
Inigo Montoya wrote:You don't have to like it, but a well run dual lash list is hard to beat. The new incarnations using Abbey are similarly wicked. It is a potent power that can win games.
Sure, it's hard to beat-- but not thanks to the Lash!
You couldn't be more wrong. Lash takes a really good build over the top. It is the icing on the cake. The lash prince has won so many games for me that it has become expected. He is a killing machine if you venture into my backfield and he is a persistent threat in a 36" radius. 2 Princes pretty much cover the entire board.
He is very good for throwing my troops onto objectives on 5 or 6. Once the plague marines are there, the very best you can hope for is to contest.
Arguing the semantics of the build is really pointless - the synnergy of lash/plague marines/oblits is just amazing. Any one of the parts alone is solid, but together they are all much better.
The abbaddon build uses a lash prince. it is a mean build as well, and is a solid answer for many of the counters to lash while maintaing a lash in the army.
Hmm, Im not quite so sure what all the fuss is about lash. I want my opponent to use lash every single turn; well, try to use it I guess, since with Runes of Warding they fail most turns. And of course they do get their 5+ saves vs the perils of the warp that they get hit with every other time or so that they use lash. Altho they do have to reroll those successful saves....
Never ignore lash, always try to give your opponent a target so that they have to take that 3d6 psychic test! And then suffer the perils of the warp if they roll a 12+ of course.
Inigo Montoya wrote:He is very good for throwing my troops onto objectives on 5 or 6. Once the plague marines are there, the very best you can hope for is to contest.
That's a good mindset, GMM. Lash is an extra trick that they have on top of their standard force. It's not an army by itself, though, and you should focus on the real stuff instead of the tricks.
By the way, Fortune? You think fortune is better than lash? Lash breaks a basic game mechanic - I cant move your dudes. Too bad Eldar is a crap codex now too. Slap fortune in the CSM codex and people would still take lash hand over fist.
By the way, Fortune? You think fortune is better than lash? Lash breaks a basic game mechanic - I cant move your dudes. Too bad Eldar is a crap codex now too. Slap fortune in the CSM codex and people would still take lash hand over fist.
This HAS to be a troll thread!!
Fortune is far better than Lash, and Eldar is as competitive as anything. Looks like the only troll here is you.
BeefyG wrote:You first argue from a competative gaming stand point, and then disallow the best example of competative play (Gloss Varnish Boyz) in this game as "support" for your argument.
As I explained, 'Ard Boyz is not actually the best example of competitive play. In fact, it has very little to do with normal competitive play.
So what substantive evidence of "normal competative play" in your little corner of the world are you referring to? What measurable quantum of "normal competative play" are you trying to refer to?
Fetterkey wrote:
BeefyG wrote:You also redefine your argument to state that it is overrated in "general" play
That's really my whole argument. My title is a joke.
I have not made myself clear enough sorry, you haven't clearly defined "general" play. I was stating that you took a side step.
Fetterkey wrote:
BeefyG wrote:and then go on to say "every player has dropped big $'s to make their army mech for 5th".
When did I say that?
Haha, this is me paraphrasing your whole section of the inherent weakness of the power being that it doesn't affect vehicles, vehicles being very strong in 5th edition and units that aren't in their transport are effectively dead.
Fetterkey wrote:
Phryxis wrote:What I do think, is that it's one of the most powerful psychic powers in the game, probably the most powerful. I'd have to sit down and think on it to be sure, but off the top of my head, nothing comes close.
Fortune.
LOL! Now this is simply outrageous. You are comparing psychic powers against each other without then applying the conditions you stated earlier? How does fortune allow you to move a scoring vehicle away from an objective , or stop a landspeeder from zooming up etc? Though your manner is stelekesque you certainly don't seem to hold a cohesive argument like he did.
Fetterkey wrote:
Phryxis wrote:Now, if you could drop a pair of Oblits and get another Lash Sorc, would that be a stronger list?
Obviously not.
Why not take all of them? Considering this is related to the point of the effectiveness of Lash? If you are playing in a microcosm that only plays small value points games to a competative level where there actually needs to be qualitative analysis between units at such a points level then I suggest that you are playing the wrong game
Fortune is better than Lash? Really? Lash is as close to game-breaking as you can get in my opinion.
I'm not saying it's broken, but saying that it's trash without actually trying or apparently being able to defend your point is nothing but drivel.
Even in a mech environment, there are still guys inside those vehicles that are doing all of the contesting and most of the killing. Lash hamstrings those units in a way that is impossible for some armies to combat (Tau, Orks) and is still difficult to deal with even for the people with psychic defense.
Lash denies your opponent the ability to use the most important phase of the game -- Movement -- for whichever units you see fit. If you don't understand this then I'm not sure what can be said to help you.
In any case, since it seems that you have no problems dealing with Lash, why don't you post some of your strategies for minimizing its impact?
Fortune certainly is useful, but really, how great is it? It improves the odds of making armor saves without improving resistance to better AP weapons. So, for example, Dire Avengers now save at a pace right between 2+ and 3+ (which is very nice), but they still die to Heavy Bolters, Heavy Flamers, and all the other highly numerous AP4 weapons in the game, as fast as always.
Nice, but best in the game? I don't think so...
Obviously not.
Again, what's your argument?
Did you do any study in game theory or anything?
Nothing formal, but certainly interesting to our genre of nerd.
Lash takes a really good build over the top.
I think it's even more than that. It's essentially the engine of the list. Everything else is there to serve the Lashing HQs. These lists are built around two Lash totes, and then units are assembled around them to protect them, and take advantage of their strengths.
Let's just say that I'm far more afraid of a Biker Council than any Lash unit.
I'm noticing a theme here. You really love Eldar. A lot. Am I onto something?
Here's the thing... When you're THAT into one particular list, it's got a strong odor of "this is the only army I have, and the other day I played a Lash guy who wasn't very good, and I won, and I now I'm feeling angry that everyone touts a list that isn't as cool as my totally sweet Eldar. Did I mention Eldar are totally sweet?"
If you look down under these words, you'll see 12 army icons. That's because I own a total of 12 playable armies. So I don't have a "home team." I own Eldar, actually. And what's funny, is I actually DON'T own a Lash list. So you know when I say it's powerful, it's not just because I painted one, and now I'm all mad that it's not the best army ever in the history of dice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's just say that I'm far more afraid of a Biker Council than any Lash unit.
Let's just say that if you came home from a night out with the Fortune Fan Club, and you found Eldrad Ulthran in your bed wearing nothing but a soulstone, it would be THE GREATEST DAY OF YOUR LIFE.
I've always played Emperor's Children. When lash was OMGWTF OVERPOWERED, I used lash. Now that lash is unimpressive, expected, and planned for.....
.....I use lash. It's a Slaanesh power, I take Slaanesh princes. I occasionally take warp time, but that is ONLY useful if I get into close combat. ONLY useful if I go up front and try to smack my enemy in the face. It's also 5 points more and doesn't help me survive against enemy shooting anymore than lash does.
Although in two more weeks my whole army's becoming counts-as space wolves anyway, so there's not much point in arguing the point of lash anymore. Woohoo!
Fetterkey keeps saying "all you have to do is stay in your transports."
ummm - the oblits and melta toting plague marines have an answer for that. You obviously have no understanding of the real power lash brings to a list. You try to justify your argument with even more ludicrous assertions and expect to be taken seriously.
How long have you played 40k?
What armie do you run?
What color are Eldrads panties?
Fortune is considered a strong psychic power because it can make certain units (councils and avatars to name a couple) extremely resilient. Its not going to be used normally on DA, anymore than lash is normally going to be used on grots.
If we are looking at the eldar tho, doom is certainly a powerful ability that is of comparable power. Except doom doesnt require LOS so can be used from inside of an enclosed vehicle.
Strats to work against lash were asked for:
Runes of warding as I mentioned in my previous post turns lash into a self wounding mechanic.
Mech armies have been mentioned by several people as putting a severe limit on lash.
Lash has only a 24" range, so shooting up a lash prince is actually pretty easy. With T5 and being a MC hes really not that tough. A sorceror takes a lot more shooting to kill, since hes probably with a unit inside a transport..... but then killing a transport plus a unit plus a sorceror takes a lot more out of the chaos army. The downside to this is that a good chaos player INTENDS for his lash units to die to firepower, taking heat off of his other units.
And the best way to handle a lash army is to hammer away at the oblits. If there are 9 oblits then thats a huge chunk of the chaos army and they need to be removed even if there are NO lash units in the army. Thats 675 points, a third of the chaos army at 2000 points, and its the third that most needs to be killed.
Sanctjud wrote:It's not the players that rely on lash you should be afraid of.
It's the players that rely on the army to win, but uses lash as a means to an end.
Then on page 2 GMMStudios says:
GMMStudios wrote:Problem is all good CSM playrs dont rely on lash, its just the icing on the cake.
Only for the OP to respond:
Fetterkey wrote:That's a good mindset, GMM. Lash is an extra trick ...
/shrug.
In addition, this:
Phryxis wrote:Saying Lash is overrated isn't the clearest way to quantify things. I mean, how do you think it's rated? Do you think people consider it an automatic win every time? Yes, that's overrated.
But I don't think people think that.
What I do think, is that it's one of the most powerful psychic powers in the game, probably the most powerful. I'd have to sit down and think on it to be sure, but off the top of my head, nothing comes close.
I know that a lot of people, or at the very least Mosg, agree.
The thing about Lash, is that it can really grow with the cleverness of the player. If somebody is obsessed with trying to bunch units up and pie plate them, and does that to the exclusion of anything more useful, then yeah, it's going to seem overrated.
But consider this: Every turn, we move units, we shoot with our units, we assault with our units. If we assume the average army has about 8 units, and the average game has about 6 turns, that's 144 "choices" we make per game.
Winning a game is all about making more of those 144 turn out to be "right" than the other guy.
So, what does Lash do? Let's assume a dual Lash list gets to use the power about 6 times a game. What Lash does, is effectively take away your opponent's movement, and turn it into your movement. It does that about 6 times per game. So, now you've got only 138 choices to win the game, while the Lash player has 150.
That translates into about 9% more. So, basically he's got 9% more opportunities to win the game than you do. That's not an auto-win button, but it's a pretty serious advantage.
Also, that's probably somewhat of an understatement. In a lot of situations, it's not possible to move, shoot and assault in the same turn. A lot of the time the choice is between those three options, rather than what to do with all of them.
That's all just metagame thinking, though. What it still comes down to is how good your opponent is. Just as skill is measured in how intelligently you move your own units, Lash means it can also be measured in how intelligently you move your opponents units.
What makes the Lash lists strong?
I'd answer that this way: a Lash Sorc costs 125 points. An Oblit costs 75. So, it's 3.33 Oblits for 2 Sorcs. If you could take a Lash list and replace two Lash Sorcs with the hypothetical 3.33 Oblits, would that be a stronger list?
I'd say it would absolutely not be.
Now, if you could drop a pair of Oblits and get another Lash Sorc, would that be a stronger list?
I think it would.
Imo is worth a second look.
@Sliggoth:
Which comes back to the whole: Mech vs. Not mech.
If you are focusing on killing oblits, the user would know, and just fallback to the other uses of lash vs. not mech.
If he is facing against mech, he’ll most likely have oblits either:
-in cover making them a bit more durable (though they still fall if enough pressure is applied)
-Behind LoS blocking stuff, not much you can do there.
-in reserves or in reserves to deepstrike, they waste a turn or two to get in, but will get the drop on tanks.
In addition, there also the melta CSM troop squads rolling forward. If they are not going after Tanks, lash can set up charges for them should the oblits be hammered too much.
If in tanks, oblits are not the only way for CSM to eject passengers out of them.
Just because you play mech doesn’t mean the infantry never touch the board.
My 7 Cents.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The 'power' of a power can also be seen in how much it helps the army.
Ie: fortune only increases the durability of one unit. Every other unit is still vulnerable.
Lash is allowed to benefit EVERYONE in the army, multipl oblits shooting, troops with flamers, charge range for zerkers and oblits.
Lash is much more flexible than Fortune, it may not make it 'better', but it's a subjective subject.
Then there is doom, which is prob. as flexible as lash.
Doom affects the direct destruction of the opponent, while lash sets up units to be at maximum effectiveness, so differs there.
But both are similar in that they help the whole army accomplish something.
If you are moving your units on foot, there's your problem.
I think this is obviously a troll post. I haven't really seen you post anything substantive to defend your point.
In any case: 2-4 Plague Marine squads with double melta and 6-9 Obliterators coupled with two Lashes makes a Bubble of LOL wherever the Chaos player wants. Even if you start the game completely mech'ed up, those meltas and Obliterators are going to remove your tanks if you want to get anywhere close to the objectives or the Chaos army. You can, if you like, stay out of LOS in your tanks I guess, but that's not really a game winning strategy in 5e, y'know?
This is a troll thread until the OP gets over the one liners.
The OP either:
1. Enjoys trolling for trollings sake
2. Played a scrub that used lash and beat it with a battleforce Eldar list.
3. Played a scrub that used lash and lost to it with a battleforce eldar list.
Nothing too epic or meta changing here, move along.
Lash lists without oblits 'can' still work.
-Vindi spam.
-Defiler spam.
-Blastmaster spam.
-Maximizing combat ability sort of armies.
-Some sort of gunline, where lash is used to push people away.
I don't know about your experience, but I think 9 Plasma cannons are much better than using oblits for lascannons...
I use CSM melta squads for anti-tank needs.
Lascannons are prob. a last resort in terms of range fire power.
Chaos are worse than Eldar, SM, IG, SW, WH, DE, and possibly BT.
Maybe some back up to that?
CSM are a functional list much like the other armies that are listed there.
The problem I see with Lash Chaos lists when fighting mechanized lists is that they only have two reliable ways to get the enemy out of their vehicles; plague marine units with double meltaguns and obliterators. If the Chaos player uses plague marines to destroy transports, they will have to disembark themselves (to get more than one shot and decent range) and leave themselves vulnerable to enemy counter-attacks. If he uses his obliterators to destroy transports then he cannot also fire plasma cannons at the same target to wipe them out after being lashed.
This may sound ridiculous, but if you are out of your vehicle (and not Assault Terminators/Nob Bikers/Biker Command Squad/Biker Council), you will probably die. This is true against many armies. Lash is no exception.
PM's 'can' shoot out of the rhino with meltas.
There is the option of termicide units.
Not only that, people do use reg. CSM squads with meltas or plasma guns.
There are also raptors and bikers that some use with meltas, but prob. raptors as bikers are too overpriced for that job, even though they are faster to set up the shot.
In addition, all the lash/oblit/ejecting occupants doesn't have to happen in one turn.
My 7 Cents.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Fetterkey:
Ok, if you are out of a transport you can die.
Lets just say lash allows you to maximize the resources you have in killing them, so there's more left to kill other stuff.
Shooting out of Rhinos is not a very good technique for units with meltaguns, especially since you can't shoot after moving 12." Termicide units are much more threatening, but they are risky, can be blocked by a good player, and are a liabilty in KP missions if performing their primary role.
Raptors and Bikers are generally uncompetitive options. One limiting factor for C:CSM is its terrible Fast Attack selections.
Against a mech army, anti-infantry weapons are not very useful. Many, in fact, have no effect whatsoever. Therefore, all anti-infantry weapons in an army facing a mech force will target anyone who gets dismounted.
Transports are hard to kill thanks to cover and the improved vehicle damage tables. It takes an extremely significant amount of firepower to take out a transport these days. By my calculations, a BS 4 lascannon has only a 14.8% chance of killing a Rhino; even a BS 4 meltagun within short range has only a 32.4% chance. This is without cover, which is not difficult to get, especially given free smoke launchers. In Dawn of War, transports are even more difficult to kill on the first turn thanks to Night Fighting (unless facing Tau).
@Fetterkey:
I didn't say shooting out of a rhino is a good choice, but it is a choice and has worked out well enough for me in the past when the situation arrises.
Termicides dont' have to be min sized, at 5 men it's not too much of a liability.
Re: raptors: they are functional and can do their jobs well enough. And if they are functional they can be used in an ultra-competitive environment.
My 7 Cents.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Cover is nice, but don't forget the 50% rule.
And it depends highly on your gaming groups terrain, which is all over the place if we are making generlizations about these things.
Cover is nice, but it's no way automatic unless:
-Smoke
-You guys house rule how cover works.
Yes, using meltaguns to shoot out of the top hatch is an option; however, it's not an option that can be relied upon. Tactical Marines do that job much better.
Non-minimum sized Termicides are obviously harder to kill, but they also cost significantly more.
Why do tactical marines do shooting out of a rhino better? CSM can get a special weapon and combi weapon at 5 models in a rhino.
Tacticals can only get a combi weapon at 5 members.
When we move it up to 10 man squads.
CSM can get 2 and a combi.
Tacticals can only get 1 special, 1 combi and a hvy weapon.
Similar but neither is better or worse.
CSM are a bit more expensive but have twice the number of attacks, Tacticals can combat squad and retain their combat tactics/ATSKNF.
Re: termies: define significantly, 175 for 5 isn't too expensive if we are talking about the 1850-2500 area.
Yes because you have to buy ten to do it with one meltagun rather than 5 for a potential 4................
Oh goodness...
In case you dont get it, PMs can have two meltas plus a combi on the sarge and rhino. All for five models, and five PMs are more survivable than 10 tactical marines too.
CajunMan550 wrote:Lash is crap atm depending what your playing my ig army just shreds both Princes by turn 2.
Well, never seen that an enemy kills my two DP's in turn two.
I'd keep both DP's on a flank behind Rhinos or Land Raiders.
If the IG army primarily targets the DP, it will have the CSM in turn 2 in its face.
Lash isnt terrible, but man are people on here blowing it out of proportion.
First off, theres the mech argument. Im not going to go into it because its already been said.
Second, it means your Prince is T5. Mark of Nurgle is important on DPs because it cuts down half of their wounds to small arms fire. 5s to wound with a 3+ armour save because hes T5 is not hard to get through at all. Considering lash is 24", that means youre going to be within bolter fire.
If he puts it on a sorceror, that means A) hes not using a prince or B) is now using 2 HQs which means less troops where CSM shines.
Third, warptime is better because it can be combined with T6. The Prince becomes a hand to hand beast whereas a lash prince is solely a giant lasher flying around the board, getting into small arms/CC range.
If lash had a 48" range then it would be better, but the fact is you have a T5 3+ save monstrous creature (easy to hit, barely any cover saves especially if shooting) coming at you.
Actually, it's not 'absurdly wrong' at all to say that 5 PMs are more survivable than 10 tacticals, at least to ap3+ weaponry.
It's simple. Thanks to FNP, the PMs immediately take half as many wounds as the tacticals. Therefore it takes twice as many shots. So, the same number of wounds are needed to kill 5 pms as 10 tac marines.
Then, you factor in t5. Yep, that's right, it's harder to wound plague marines. So, to get the same number of wounds on plague marines as tacticals, you need more hits. Needing more hits to down 5 PMs than 10 tacticals means that they are, in fact, more survivable.
Also, before you say 'I would just shoot them with ap2 or s8+ weaponry, you said yourself that all anti-infantry firepower goes onto any squad out of their transport. So you're shooting with similar weapons at each unit. AND the PMs are easier to get cover saves from since it's a smaller unit. Which also means less hits from Large Blast weapons/flamers. AND they have defensive grenades if they get charged.
So how is it absurd? I'd like to see some reasoning from you rather than sweeping statements.
Remember that a Chaos rhino can be armed with a pintle mounted combi melta. So you could have two meltagung and two combi-meltas. A squad of Plague Marines is much better than a squad of tactical Marines. First you can take any number you want while you must field 10 Marines to have access to the meltagun and multi-melta. I would much rather have two meltaguns as compared to a meltagun and a multi-melta. The game is much more dynamic now and units that can't move in order to fire their weapons are often detrimental.
Five Plague Marines is much more survivable as compared to ten tactical Marines plus they are cheaper. Five is the perfect number for a PM squad.
Like other have said:
Plague marines are tough, and they are more survivable that Tacs provided it's not Str 8, AP1/2, or always ignores armor saves.
So there are weapons that kill plague marines well, but chances are they are weapons that are also use to kill tanks and terminators.
Tacticals can get mulitmeltas true, that doesn't make it 'better' than CSMs.
If you shoot with the MM in the rhino, it means the rhino is stationary.
In addition you MUST purchase the 10 man squad for it.
Again, they are different shooting potentials, it's inaccurate to say one is better than the other.
Tacs get a nice 24" meltas...CSM/plague marines get double the special weapons.
Again... lash is not something to rely on, people who use Chaos well know that.
To assume the whole list depends on it is not constructive.
Lash is cheap enough to throw in and take whatever comes of it.
Daemon Princes are flexible in that they can perform a role you kit them out to do.
I generally run Spartan Princes, princes with only wings and their only role is to add to Target Saturation. Cheap, threatening to infantry and armor, and EXPENDABLE.
Now if I was expanding the list and I had 25-50 points remaining with no where to put it, lash would be the easiest and most flexible option I could add.
Basically, not everyone runs mech, and it abuses non-mech pretty hard.
If it is a mech army, in most cases, something will eventually come out of their metal boxes whether voluntarily or not.
My 7 Cents.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS @Afrikan Blonde
Sanctjud wrote:Why do tactical marines do shooting out of a rhino better? CSM can get a special weapon and combi weapon at 5 models in a rhino..
Tacticals get a multi-melta.
A multimelta has a 24" range and can't move and shoot. Not at all hard to stay out of range.
Fetterkey wrote:
PanamaG wrote:All for five models, and five PMs are more survivable than 10 tactical marines too.
Absurdly wrong.
This statement alone exemplifies you patent lack of understanding of the mechanics of the game. In terms you can understand: You don't know what you are talking about.
5 plague marines are much more survivable than 10 tacticals.
In an earlier post I pointed out that slapping a squad of 7 on an objective on turn 5 or 6 will lock that objective and all you can hope for is to contest. You said that was wrong as well. How, pray tell, do you dislodge 7 plague marines from an objective in 1 turn? It is the bottom of 5, so your resources are limited and you still have oblits and most likely one prince on the board in addition to multiple other pm squads.
You really do not understand how a well built lash list works, and your ignorance of the facts leads you to jump to incorrect conclusions.
Sure, a nurgle prince is more survivable. I am not taking the lash prince to fight, I am taking him to lash. If any unit other than the one being lashed can see him, then it is an error on the lash players side. It can be beat - any list can be beat. In an all comers environment, it is solid against anything that hits the table. Lah is not broken, and it is not goign to win anything by itself. Lash+PM+Oblits will win far more than it loses.
Dual lash is one of the top three builds going right now, and it is called dual lash for a reason. It isn't oblit spam, it isn't pm spam, it is dual lash.
On a side note - at 2000 and more I take winged sorcerers for lashing and ride them with the plague marines. If the squad gets in real trouble, I fly over and join another squad. The lash mechanic is solid in that build as well.
Orkestra wrote:Actually, it's not 'absurdly wrong' at all to say that 5 PMs are more survivable than 10 tacticals, at least to ap3+ weaponry.
It's simple. Thanks to FNP, the PMs immediately take half as many wounds as the tacticals. Therefore it takes twice as many shots. So, the same number of wounds are needed to kill 5 pms as 10 tac marines.
Then, you factor in t5. Yep, that's right, it's harder to wound plague marines. So, to get the same number of wounds on plague marines as tacticals, you need more hits. Needing more hits to down 5 PMs than 10 tacticals means that they are, in fact, more survivable.
This is technically correct but imprecise. Plague Marines do have increased toughness, but they also have less models in the unit, making it more likely that important models go down every time you get shot at. Further, against powerful anti-infantry weapons, Plague Marines are just as resilient as Tactical Marines, but have less models, and can thus be crippled more easily. Plague Marines are also significantly worse against strong assault units.
Orkestra wrote:Also, before you say 'I would just shoot them with ap2 or s8+ weaponry, you said yourself that all anti-infantry firepower goes onto any squad out of their transport. So you're shooting with similar weapons at each unit. AND the PMs are easier to get cover saves from since it's a smaller unit. Which also means less hits from Large Blast weapons/flamers. AND they have defensive grenades if they get charged.
So how is it absurd? I'd like to see some reasoning from you rather than sweeping statements.
Many armies have anti-infantry firepower that negates the chief advantage of Plague Marines. Imperial Guard is probably the best example here.
Since I saw this thread was still going, so I figured I'd post some Youtube fun. Just to remain on topic, yeah, Lash is beatable, but you see it a lot for a reason: it generally works pretty well. Give it to an average player and it can boost the performance of their army. Give it to a veteran who really knows how to use it, and it just becomes nasty (but still beatable). And a 7-man Plague Marine Squad with MGx2 costs 6 points more than a 10 Man Tactical with MG and MM, but will last significantly longer to most weaponry out there and allows you to perform better drive-bys.
Lets say 10 wounds are rolled.
Each plague marine takes 2 saves.
Each tac takes 1 save.
Plague marines are twice as durable to small arms.
Tacs are not.
It ends up being the same chance to lose something special after all saves are applied.
But PMs are tougher vs. small arms... so less wounds would apply, Cēterīs paribus with respect to the enemy shooting.
_____________________
Give us an example of powerful anti-infantry weapons. Do you mean special weapons or the bog standard weapons?
I don't know of any standard infantry weapons that are both str 7+ and Ap 2 and below...
If we are talking about special weapons like plasma guns, than yes, plague marines die as fast as tacticals and are not as great with a low number.
BUT, it's a plasma gun that's not going at your: daemon princes, rhino's, other infantry, oblits...in addition cover saves are abundant.
In addition against strong assault units.... neither will do well, BUT, will Tactical marines deny the charges their charge attacks.......no.
Wow have you ever played 40k before? Do the mathhammer.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fetterkey wrote:
This is technically correct but imprecise. Plague Marines do have increased toughness, but they also have less models in the unit, making it more likely that important models go down every time you get shot at.
This has NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to do with how survivable the UNIT is!!!
Plague Marines are just as resilient as Tactical Marines, but have less models, and can thus be crippled more easily. Plague Marines are also significantly worse against strong assault units.
Yeah because blight grenades give your opponent +1 attack.
I dont think the OPs blatant ignorance is as frustrating as how right he thinks he is.
Oh my god only on Dakka. The OP so far has said:
Eldar are better than CSM Warptime is better than Lash
FORTUNE is better than lash!
Tac marines with T4 3+ are more survivable than Plague Marines with T5 3+ FNP!
Theres nothing wrong with not knowing what you are talking about but its just so hilarious that you think you are correct!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inigo Montoya wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:
Sanctjud wrote:Why do tactical marines do shooting out of a rhino better? CSM can get a special weapon and combi weapon at 5 models in a rhino..
Tacticals get a multi-melta.
A multimelta has a 24" range and can't move and shoot. Not at all hard to stay out of range.
Fetterkey wrote:
PanamaG wrote:All for five models, and five PMs are more survivable than 10 tactical marines too.
Absurdly wrong.
This statement alone exemplifies you patent lack of understanding of the mechanics of the game. In terms you can understand: You don't know what you are talking about.
5 plague marines are much more survivable than 10 tacticals.
In an earlier post I pointed out that slapping a squad of 7 on an objective on turn 5 or 6 will lock that objective and all you can hope for is to contest. You said that was wrong as well. How, pray tell, do you dislodge 7 plague marines from an objective in 1 turn? It is the bottom of 5, so your resources are limited and you still have oblits and most likely one prince on the board in addition to multiple other pm squads.
You really do not understand how a well built lash list works, and your ignorance of the facts leads you to jump to incorrect conclusions.
Sure, a nurgle prince is more survivable. I am not taking the lash prince to fight, I am taking him to lash. If any unit other than the one being lashed can see him, then it is an error on the lash players side. It can be beat - any list can be beat. In an all comers environment, it is solid against anything that hits the table. Lah is not broken, and it is not goign to win anything by itself. Lash+PM+Oblits will win far more than it loses.
Dual lash is one of the top three builds going right now, and it is called dual lash for a reason. It isn't oblit spam, it isn't pm spam, it is dual lash.
On a side note - at 2000 and more I take winged sorcerers for lashing and ride them with the plague marines. If the squad gets in real trouble, I fly over and join another squad. The lash mechanic is solid in that build as well.
Plague marines will survive better to basic arms fire and basic CC attacks, but thats really it.
Anything AP2 or below kills them better.
Anything Strg 8 or higher kills them better.
Any S7 shots will kill them just as good.
Power Weapons will annihilate them.
So if you look at, lets just say the other units in the CSM book -
Daemon Princes
Lord
Sorceror
Terminators
Dreadnought
Any infantry with a fist
Dreadnoughts
Defilers (CC and battlecannon)
Vindicators
Any other heavy support with lascannons (which is essentially all of them)
They will all kill 5 plagues better than 10 tacticals marines... aside from maybe basic infantry in CC due to defensive nades.
Fetterkey wrote:This is technically correct but imprecise. Plague Marines do have increased toughness, but they also have less models in the unit, making it more likely that important models go down every time you get shot at.
This has NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to do with how survivable the UNIT is!!!
Haha, no thanks. Go read the wound allocation rules and get back to me.
PanamaG wrote:Eldar are better than CSM
Yes.
PanamaG wrote:Warptime is better than Lash
Against mech, yes.
PanamaG wrote:FORTUNE is better than lash!
Absolutely.
PanamaG wrote:Tac marines with T4 3+ are more survivable than Plague Marines with T5 3+ FNP!
Individual Tacs obviously aren't more survivable, but 10-man Tac squads are more survivable than 5-man Plague Marine squads.
Inigo Montoya wrote:
5 plague marines are much more survivable than 10 tacticals.
Heh. Sorry, no.
Inigo Montoya wrote:
In an earlier post I pointed out that slapping a squad of 7 on an objective on turn 5 or 6 will lock that objective and all you can hope for is to contest. You said that was wrong as well. How, pray tell, do you dislodge 7 plague marines from an objective in 1 turn? It is the bottom of 5, so your resources are limited and you still have oblits and most likely one prince on the board in addition to multiple other pm squads.
Through using the same simplistic "tactics" that remove any other infantry unit in the game from an objective? It's not like Plague Marines are a real special case.
If plague marines are attracting str 8 weapons THAT IS GOOD with respect to target saturation.
AP2/1 hurts them well enough, you cover saves are easy to get, and it's only str 7+ that doesn't care about T5.
Power weapons: it depends...if it's 3 attacks at str 4 it's not too bad.
Again, highly dependent....... I would gladlly take charges from Banshees...and they are all equipped with power weapons...
Fists kills almost all infantry equally.
Lord: depends, if a DW he can wreck house or kill himself, and has to pay for a joe power weapon.
Dp/Sorc: nasty with warptime and/or wind.
Termies: yup, but str 4 is kinda meh.
Dread: if it doesn't lose the DCCW first.
Defilers/vindi: nasty as well.
But those are pretty lethal things already.
___________________________________________
If you look at it from this angle:
It almost requires these hvy duty kits/guns/units to take them out... that is an advantedge already.
If anything Plague marines are roughly a point undercosted.
Sanctjud wrote:If plague marines are attracting str 8 weapons THAT IS GOOD with respect to target saturation.
AP2/1 hurts them well enough, you cover saves are easy to get, and it's only str 7+ that doesn't care about T5.
Depends on what army they're facing.
Sanctjud wrote:
If anything Plague marines are roughly a point undercosted.
Sure they are. But undercosted doesn't mean unstoppable-- just look at Vendettas. PMs are easy to take out with the right weapons, and easy to neutralize with the right tactics.
If you look at it from this angle:
It almost requires these hvy duty kits/guns/units to take them out... that is an advantedge already.
If anything Plague marines are roughly a point undercosted.
My 7 Cents.
The argument is 10 tacticals vs 5 plague marines in terms of survivability. Everything I listed will kill the 5 plagues faster, even infantry with fists because there are less targets (though again, defensive nades may balance this, I dont feel like calculating). Less targets also means less attacks back, so while you may draw basic attacks out longer (at I3 as well), you arnt really dishing out as much back either, as every death on the plague side is essentially 2 marines on the tactical side offensively (which is great except when youre outnumbered 2:1 anyways).
The units I listed are pretty much every viable non troop unit CSM has, so its not unrealistic. Even the junky lord will hit plagues harder.
Night Lords wrote:.....Any S7 shots will kill them just as good.
...
Power Weapons will annihilate them...
Eh, S7 won't do anything unless it's also AP2. You'd need more than 6 BS3 autocannons to kill off just 1 Plague Marine.
Power weapons are also something that has a lot of trouble versus PMarines. Your average sergeant-type character will do less than one wound to a Plague Marine (roll a 4+, roll a 5+, three chances to do it).
OP wrote:Sure they are. But undercosted doesn't mean unstoppable-- just look at Vendettas. PMs are easy to take out with the right weapons, and easy to neutralize with the right tactics.
"Tactics" really doesn't do much to plague marines. The right weapons, sure, and protecting those weapons, doubly sure, but "tactics" like tank shocking or getting them caught up in a sweeping advance or torrent of fire or escorting them off the table... that stuff doesn't really work because they're such a solid rock unit.
Sure they are. But undercosted doesn't mean unstoppable-- just look at Vendettas. PMs are easy to take out with the right weapons, and easy to neutralize with the right tactics.
This is the strength of Plague Marines. Yes, they die easily if you use specific tactics and weaponry designed to kill Plague Marines. But that's the point, isn't it? They require you to use special tactics and weapons against them. The same special weapons that work well against your Daemon Princes and your Oblits. Would you rather have a unit of infantry that takes the nasty hits instead of your other valuable units, or a unit of infantry that can die easily to small arms fire.
Hmmm, which one is better?
Maybe I'm just not playing fetterhammer, but I'd rather have cheaper models (PMs) soak those plasma hits instead of my Oblits.
Also, any assault unit that can wreck 5 PMs can wreck 10 tacticals. If they're, say, TH/SS terms, then great! they wipe out the whole squad on their turn and get plasma cannons in the face because the oblits are still alive (thanks to all the weapons you used to specifically kill the PMs). Whereas they might not wipe the whole 10 tacticals, and will be safe in combat.
@Fetterkey:
What?
How does target saturation and claiming cover saves depend on what army I'm facing?
I do it versus all armies.
I never said underpointed = unstoppable, you said that, not me.
Vendettas shooting Plague marines...
Serious? Plague marines are way second in line to shooting armor, and if Vendettes are reduced to shooting plague marines, then go ahead... it's only 3 shots from each vendette that's a lascannon and cover saves are gold vs. that stuff.
@Night Lords:
I did not disagree with you on most of the units you listed.
I'm just saying it's an advantage if the plague marines are getting that kind of attension as opposed to other things.
I was not discussing the durability issue, I was talking about a specific point of view in which the attension of all of the stuff that's good at killing them are the high damage quality stuff.
How do I rephrase it.
It's nice...for a unit that requires stuff that kill everything equally to kill them, as opposed to small arms.
I'm at a loss for words to describe it, but it wasn't about the durability issue at the point you quoted Night Lords...I've editted the post to put a line between it.
My 7 Cents.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit: Orkestra said what I wanted to say.
Thank you to you for putting your thoughts into words.
Serious? Plague marines are way second in line to shooting armor, and if Vendettes are reduced to shooting plague marines, then go ahead... it's only 3 shots from each vendette that's a lascannon and cover saves are gold vs. that stuff.
That was an example of another unit that's undercosted but not unstoppable. Vendettas aren't that good against Plague Marines.
sourclams wrote:"Tactics" really doesn't do much to plague marines. The right weapons, sure, and protecting those weapons, doubly sure, but "tactics" like tank shocking or getting them caught up in a sweeping advance or torrent of fire or escorting them off the table... that stuff doesn't really work because they're such a solid rock unit.
Tank shocking still works. Escorting them off the table or sweeping them obviously doesn't, though.
Orkestra wrote:They require you to use special tactics and weapons against them. The same special weapons that work well against your Daemon Princes and your Oblits.
Not necessarily. Some weapons are great versus Plague Marines but not so hot against Dæmon Princes or Oblits.
I keep hearing "some armies this", "some weapons that", but not a lot of concrete examples. In any case, just because "some" stuff can counter it doesn't mean a lot of other armies out there have a hard time of dealing with it. It's a slow day here so I don't mind the obvious trollin'.
Final thought: What weapons aren't great against DPs/Oblits but work great against PMs?
Tank Shock only works provided that it's still alive taking a melta/meltabomb/or fist/kraks.
Certainly it can, but it's still an uphill climb, though an option.
My use of the phrase target saturation was slanted heavily towards this:
'If plague marines are taking str 8+ weapons, it's a good thing. Other units are not taking that str 8+ weapons to the face'...like where the lash sorc or prince is.
Cover saves are one of the things that allows an army to weather through an army that won't be saturated by targets.
Just like you had said: meching up is good..... the lash list can do the same and mech up.
There is probably no other HQ choice that has as large of an impact on your opponent's choices for movement, shooting, and assault in the game. This is the essenceof a winning list--the opponent *must* play by your rules.
Basically every army has infantry. That infantry is susceptible to Lash.
Night Lords wrote:.....Any S7 shots will kill them just as good.
...
Power Weapons will annihilate them...
Eh, S7 won't do anything unless it's also AP2. You'd need more than 6 BS3 autocannons to kill off just 1 Plague Marine.
Power weapons are also something that has a lot of trouble versus PMarines. Your average sergeant-type character will do less than one wound to a Plague Marine (roll a 4+, roll a 5+, three chances to do it).
S7 will do just as good against 10 tacts as it will against 5 plagues. Hitting is the same, wounding is the same (on 2s), except plagues get FNP which cuts the wounds in half. The tacts have 2x as many wounds, so it is equal. Strength 3-6 the plagues have the advantage because of T5.
As for power weapons, I was talking about CSM where a fist is the norm, killing on 2s. The fist kill affects the plagues more than it does the tacts due to be outnumbered 2:1 and having the exact same requirements to kill.
How did we get to the Vacuum one on ones...?
_____
True str 7 + does not care about T5, while 8 jumps and passes FNP.
But the idea is that...if they are taking that kind of fire...that's fire not aimed at something else important in the army.
Yes, fists are mean to all infantry and the lower model count does show to be a disadvantedge there, but the advantedges outweight them, in addition lets get out of one on ones, it's an army vs. army, I'm sure the Plague marines have some sort of supporting elements, and the tactical squad have their supporting elements.
Plague Marines are better than tacticals points wise, you make it seem like Im arguing against that.
Im just saying people were calling the OP a troll and a moron for saying 10 tacts outsurvive 5 plagues, yet its hardly outrageous at all. People are going to use their MEQ firing power, its hardly overkill if you can wipe out 70% of a squad in one blast. Seeing as how CSM lists are based around those plagues, there really wouldnt be too much other stuff to shoot at anyways.
I'm not trying to argue against you, I'm just trying to present a view to balance things out.
Troll maybe, but his comments about the survivability of PMs to Tacticals could have been a little more detailed.
A one-liner sweeping generlization post isn't helping him.
Again, most things are dependent on many factors, but it is a fact that plague marines are durable to the majority of weapons in 40k, small arms.
There are weapons that can drop kick them, but they are more hvy duty gear, requiring more specific and usually less abundant resources to take them out.
Night Lords wrote:
S7 will do just as good against 10 tacts as it will against 5 plagues. Hitting is the same, wounding is the same (on 2s), except plagues get FNP which cuts the wounds in half. The tacts have 2x as many wounds, so it is equal. Strength 3-6 the plagues have the advantage because of T5.
As for power weapons, I was talking about CSM where a fist is the norm, killing on 2s. The fist kill affects the plagues more than it does the tacts due to be outnumbered 2:1 and having the exact same requirements to kill.
What you're saying still isn't remarkably accurate. Average Marine cost is 16 ppm, Plague Marines are 23. Two kills on a Tac squad is 50% more points efficient than one kill on a Plague Marine squad.
Likewise Power Fists lose a lot of effectiveness to Blight Grenades. A Power Fist on a typical Sergeant character charging a Tac squad is going to kill 1.25 Marines. The same fister versus Plagues is going to get .83 Plague Marines due to losing an attack. The points efficiency is basically equal.
One could make a comment on how it gains in subsequent rounds, but it's quite likely that Plague Marines with their own fist and general immunity to normal S4 attacks are slowly beating the assaulting squad to death while Tacticals just crumble.
Night Lords wrote:
S7 will do just as good against 10 tacts as it will against 5 plagues. Hitting is the same, wounding is the same (on 2s), except plagues get FNP which cuts the wounds in half. The tacts have 2x as many wounds, so it is equal. Strength 3-6 the plagues have the advantage because of T5.
As for power weapons, I was talking about CSM where a fist is the norm, killing on 2s. The fist kill affects the plagues more than it does the tacts due to be outnumbered 2:1 and having the exact same requirements to kill.
What you're saying still isn't remarkably accurate. Average Marine cost is 16 ppm, Plague Marines are 23. Two kills on a Tac squad is 50% more points efficient than one kill on a Plague Marine squad.
Likewise Power Fists lose a lot of effectiveness to Blight Grenades. A Power Fist on a typical Sergeant character charging a Tac squad is going to kill 1.25 Marines. The same fister versus Plagues is going to get .83 Plague Marines due to losing an attack. The points efficiency is basically equal.
One could make a comment on how it gains in subsequent rounds, but it's quite likely that Plague Marines with their own fist and general immunity to normal S4 attacks are slowly beating the assaulting squad to death while Tacticals just crumble.
I think you need to read the topic again. This is strictly comparing the survivability of 5 plagues vs 10 tacts. I cant even remember why it was brought up, but thats the reasoning. Plagues are better point for point, but 5 PMs vs 10 Tacts has the tacts in favour under almost any circumstances.
Whatever, Im not the one that brought this topic up (what does it even have to do with lash?), but all the things that bounce off of plagues are either not used often (ie bolters - i wouldnt even shoot tacticals with them) or in less competitive codex books, and the things that do kill them are spammed because everyone wants to kill MEQs and TEQs.
Ultimate point is, its not unrealistic to say 10 tacts > 5 plagues in terms of survivability.
Chaos Space Marines versus an equal pointed unit of Plague Marines in a firefight (imagine there's an impassable gorge between them or something), at 10"-12" range.
So 9 Chaos Space Marines vs 6 Plague Marines, all Bolters.
Chaos Space Marines, if they started Turn 1, would get 18 shots, 12 hits, 8 saves, 4 wounds, and 2 Feel No Pain rolls for 2 casualties.
That gives 4 Plague Marines the opportunity to shoot back, with 8 shots, 5 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saves, 1 wound and 1 casualty.
Plague Marines, if they started Turn 1, would get 12 shots, 8 hits, 5 saves, 3 wound for 3 casualties.
The Chaos Space Marine return fire would be 12 shots, 8 hits, 5 saves, 3 wounds for 1 casualty.
Definitely doesn't look like a healthy match-up for Chaos Space Marines.
Close combat wise, if the Chaos Space Marines charged the Plague Marines, with a round of pistol-shooting first, you might expected 9 Chaos Space Marines to charge 6 Plague Marines since bolt pistols are relatively ineffective (9 shots, 6 hits, 2 wounds, 2 saves, 1 Feel No Pain roll, 0 casualties), and since they're I4 to swing first with 18 attacks, 9 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saves, and one Feel No Pain roll. The Plague Marines would then get 12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saves, and one casualty.
Both sides would have 2x melta guns though. I know you did 9 for the purpose of making it 1.5:1 ratio in points, making 2 specials impossible for the CSM and unbalancing, but thats how it is.
Though this would be good to know. 10 Chaos Marines vs 7 Plague Marines (255 points vs 256 points)- Rhino, champ, fist each and IoCG for CSM.
-----
CSM first:
Essentially due to the fist, the CSM will win out by a little bit. Even given the benefit of rounding kills the PMs still arnt catching up to the CSMs.
If PMs charge, they wont lose the 1.4 guys from shooting, they will kill 1.66 CSM in their shooting, essentially changing the difference between them by 3. Since the previous calculations were so close, its pretty obvious that the plagues will win this one out, especially with those 6-7 (depending if one is killed) extra attacks on charge.
Plague Marines do have increased toughness, but they also have less models in the unit, making it more likely that important models go down every time you get shot at.
The most important thing that PMs do is not die. The Meltas/Plasmas and maybe PFist are icing.
Besides, having a small number of models doesn't always hurt you. For example, fewer models often means you can stack the two unsaveable wounds on the same model.
Plague Marines are tough. It's what they do. Stop arguing a point for the sake of arguing it.
So let's go back to Lash...
I thought of a way to explain it that even the macho men will be able to parse...
As we all know, all you macho men are such refined, nuanced, super-great players, playing at such a high level, that all it takes to lose an entire game is one bad decision, one missed chance, one poor gamble.
That's the sort of high stakes, winner take all, devil may care game that you intellectual giants play.
It's the sort of game that gives you the wherewithal to make stunning observations such as "OMG LASH AINT SPECAIL GET SOME RINOS AND STOP CRY LOL TART"
But that's the problem... If one bad move can cost you the game, Lash means you're going to make the WORST POSSIBLE MOVE AVAILABLE about SIX TIMES PER GAME.
It's almost as if you were making the exact move your opponent wanted you to make. Almost. Almost exactly.
Get it?
It's a big deal.
And it's not like the Chaos player spends 150ish points for this, and that's that. He spends 150ish points, gets Lash PLUS he gets a Daemon Prince, which can Lash your Tactical squad as well as singlehandedly kill it in CC.
Actually, he spends 20 points per Lash, for a total of 40 points, which is basically irrelevant in a 1850 point game. And for that virtually irrelevant 40 points, he gets to...
Wait for it...
FORCE YOU TO MAKE THE WORST POSSIBLE MOVE AVAILABLE about SIX TIMES PER GAME.
Thanks, caps, for helping me lend emphasis to the painfull obvious.
To be honest, im a BA player and getting into combat is fine by me, if i get lashed and assaulted, fine, but i do try and avoid it.
Using pods allways leaves me open to get lashed, but once again, why would a lash price be dumb enough to drag a unit of death company towards him? lol
Other way i play is all jump infantry, and lash once again helps me get into combat quicker
Pointless using lash to move me away, since the high movement means no matter how hard they try to lash ill get into combat quickly enough.
As ignoring it goes: Depends on your army really, with meq, its not a huge problem until the blitz start taking apart your transports, then it becomes a slight pain, but nothing impossible to deal with.
What people tend to forget is its either a basic marine with slight stat increaces, or a prince.
either way they need to be close to use it, which means chances are you will be close enough to attack.
If i ever do take a footslogging BA army (which i wont) then ill just focus fire on the oblits 1st, since they are what really gives lash an edge.
Without a hammer unit to use with lash its hardly a game breaker, and can be dealt with pretty quickly if needed.
Wait for it...
FORCE YOU TO MAKE THE WORST POSSIBLE MOVE AVAILABLE about SIX TIMES PER GAME.
If your fething dumb enough to get lashed six times in a game then maybe you should start playing the game more.
Sit back and shoot him, charge in with dedicated CC units, stay in transports, get out of his LOS, all easy options that every army can do.
Lets face it, nidzilla has fun with lash, who the feth wants to lash a godfex any closer? lol, if anything, you will be lashing him away, in which case, another MC moves in for the kill.
To be honest, im a BA player and getting into combat is fine by me, if i get lashed and assaulted, fine, but i do try and avoid it.
Ok, and how about the myriad other things he can do to ruin your day? It's not just to get into combat.
It's to cluster your jump troops up, pie plate them off the table.
It's to push them 2D6" back where they started, so you spend an extra turn or two trying to get into CC.
It's to push you off an objective at the bottom of turn 6, so he wins the game.
Other way i play is all jump infantry, and lash once again helps me get into combat quicker
Not a good starting point that you're going to criticize Lash, and then assume it's going to be used to help your assault army get into assault faster.
Pointless using lash to move me away, since the high movement means no matter how hard they try to lash ill get into combat quickly enough.
No. Have you even read the rules? 2D6". That's an average of 7". With good enough rolls, you will NEVER get to close combat. With average rolls you'll get to combat slower than walking. Is slower than walking "quickly enough?" No. It's not.
But hey, if you do manage to get there, you're still jump infantry so you'll still probably get the assault. Oh, wait, Blight Grenades. You lose.
If i ever do take a footslogging BA army (which i wont)
I beg to differ. 12" - 7" = 5". Whoops, you just took a footslogging army.
But wait, you protest... He can only Lash 2 units, I've got more than that! Ok, fine. So he lets 1 or 2 come on at full speed, blows half of them away with Oblits and PMPlas/Melta, then, as the PMs are finishing them off in CC, your other squads are allowed to move up to eat Oblit shooting.
If your fething dumb enough to get lashed six times in a game then maybe you should start playing the game more.
Yeah, totally dumb. Not as bright as the Lash player, helping an assault army get into assault faster, right?
People deploy their Lashes in different ways, but in a lot of cases it involves Wings. That makes them quite able to be in the right place at the right time. Lash has 24" range. With standard deployment on table edges, he can be Lashing you turn 1. With two HQs, he's Lashing twice per turn.
Here's an example...
Turn 1: He does no Lashing, being cautious.
Turn 2: Lashes twice.
Turn 3: Lashes twice, but you kill a Lash.
Turn 4: Lashes once.
Turn 5: Lashes one, you finish the Lashes off.
That's six. That's six assuming he's cautious turn 1, assuming you kill both of his Lashes by turn 5.
Are you really gonna kill both his HQs any quicker than that? Are you really gonna stay outside of 36" the whole time you're doing it?
Yes, I realize that Mech lists are going to minimize this effect. Ok, great, you just minimized the benefits he gets from 40 points. You've still got a 1810 point army to deal with.
That's the thing about Lash... It offers the potential to totally dominate the game, and if you find a way to counteract it, all you can really do is even the odds, not come out ahead. It's not like he put all his eggs in that basket. It was 40 points.
Being able to move an enemy unit 2D6" ONCE per game is worth 40 points. Chaos can do it all game long for that price.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think you may be thinking of "A Word In Your Ear."
Ok, well, I'm not, but now I'm sorta curious to know how you even come up with stuff like this?
It's to push them 2D6" back where they started, so you spend an extra turn or two trying to get into CC.
Great, an average roll of 7 means a huge deal with 12" movement plus 6" assault Still means i move at 1" slower than a basic model after lash lol, no big deal, and you can lash 2 units at max per turn.
How does that help against multiple units charging in? and correct me if im wrong, but once im in CC lash has no use atall.
It's to push you off an objective at the bottom of turn 6, so he wins the game.
And how would a lash model survive 6 turns? thats asking a bit much really, since most CC orientated armies are in combat by turn 2, and most characters are capable of dropping a prince without many problems.
Not a good starting point that you're going to criticize Lash, and then assume it's going to be used to help your assault army get into assault faster.
Why not? a pod drops units behind oblits, meaning they in turn have to shoot them or get assaulted, the prince then only has 2 lash options.
Away, in which ill charge him that turn anyway, or closer, and risk being killed.
grouping them together without a hammer unit has no real use, except to waste time and piss me off
No. Have you even read the rules? 2D6". That's an average of 7". With good enough rolls, you will NEVER get to close combat. With average rolls you'll get to combat slower than walking. Is slower than walking "quickly enough?" No. It's not.
Once again, you cant lash more than 2 units per turn, maybe only 1 if you only take single lash.
How does this stop models with a 12" movement? you would have to roll double 6's every time to keep them away.
With 2 units moving towards them you cant hold them off for more than a turn with lash.
Next point: Which is why i said i wouldnt take a footslogging army However, i can see 180 orks getting into CC without many problems, oblitz cant really roll off the rounds each turn to dent them.
comment on turns and lashing:
I was talking about a single lash being used 6 times Now, when pods around him are dropping off termies, dreads and assault units, how do the wings keep him away? in effect, im then dropping threat units all around your line, chaos running a cookie lash list are limited to a small army, meaning you cannot block the pods to any real effect.
Also, 1 turn of shooting when the pods hit wont assaure you that you have done enough.
Units like the death company simply shrug off pretty much any shot unless its instant death.
I cant see someone firing las at a 10 man unit hoping to do well.
On a side note here, ill be playing a double lash list again later this month, so ill drop you the link once i have a batrep up
I just find that lash is more of a psychological advantage more than anything.
People tend to see it and panic about how to stop it.
With a highly mobile army capable of having oblitz in combat by turn 2 you have then lost the main unit of the army, and the real effective end of the lash.
Lets face it, a few units of plague marines wont survive long.
DC have S5, 4 attacks and rending, meaning they chew through them, and vets have power weps, so once again, no problems.
that is then really the mainstay of the army, leaving the lash's and a few units without scoring and without strength.
All you need to do is pick apart the key part of the army.
If im sat on an objective then ill make sure i throw something in the way to stop you from lashing me off it, or ill throw a suicide unit at the prince, or, ill simply send in mephiston or dante (since the both move as jump infantry after a power)
I just think its a good power in all, but once you have lost the key element to it, it becomes nothing more than a simple restriction to you.
Failing that, ive never seen 2 lash armies against eachother, allthough it could be amusing
Hmm... Jump Pack Infantry against Lash? "Oops... here's 7" into terrain for you... Take a DT test now AND when you move out on your turn." All the while the DP is flying away from you at 12" if he doesn't want to melee you. Same with a Carnifex (which will can only move 6" without running). He goes an average of 7" backwards each turn and never hits combat. Yeah... you can still beat a Lash player in that situation, but it makes it tougher.
As for DC... Oblits (which can deepstrike to avoid getting hemmed in by Drop Pods) with TL plasma will hurt them pretty dang fast, especially if they're eatting terrain tests multiple times a turn (no FNP for them).
If your fething dumb enough to get lashed six times in a game then maybe you should start playing the game more.
Sit back and shoot him, charge in with dedicated CC units, stay in transports, get out of his LOS, all easy options that every army can do.
Translation: JUST USE TACTICS!!1 LOLOL
Lets face it, nidzilla has fun with lash, who the feth wants to lash a godfex any closer? lol, if anything, you will be lashing him away, in which case, another MC moves in for the kill.
Because in CrazyWorld, assaulting with 5 Carnifexes while 2 Carnifexes sit in the corner looking at pr0n is way better than assaulting with 7 Carnifexes. I mean 5 Carnifexes because Oblit spam killed 2 Carnifexes. I mean 3 Carnifexes because two Daemon Princes doubleteamed one of my Carnifexes. Er, 2 Carnifexes because mass melta fire killed a Carnifex. LOL I sure wish I had two more Carnifexes to make this assault stick!!! Oh wait...
sourclams wrote:Translation: JUST USE TACTICS!!1 LOLOL
Nice troll, but basic tactics really do work to overcome this kind of thing. In fact, I think I originally put quotes around "tactics" when i mentioned them, since the types of thing you have to use are so simple that they hardly qualify as tactically interesting. In fact, most of them should be intuitively obvious to anyone who understands the basic mechanics of 40k.
Night Lords wrote:Sorry, I meant they are 1.5:1 points wise.
I'm not sure what is getting lost in translation here. Do you mean that they're 3:2 model-wise? Because that's what they are if you have nine Chaos Space Marines versus six Plague Marines, which is almost 1:1 points-wise.
Again, if im in range of a standard unit of plagues for example, why would i rush the prince? i rather stick to CC (with plagues it should last 2 turns or so)
Once jammed in CC the prince and oblits lose all effect.
You cant shoot or lash into combat, meaning that once in CC you are safe from it.
I also fail to see how lash and oblits can keep 10 pods full of troops / dreads from causing problems.
With BA, every unit (minus tracked vehicles and characters) gets a pod as a transport option (some get it free) meaning that by using a pod rain system its impossible to avoid getting dragged into CC unless your playing on a rather huge board.
also, even if you only shred the plagues in combat, you then have no scoring units left, meaning you have to try and table an opponant (not really the army capacity to do so) or stop around 60% of an army from grabbing a single objective.
this is all while your trying to avoid combat at the same time.
I think once the main units are down (plagues and oblits) you dont have anything to really worry about unless the prince does a kamakazi into you, in which case, you kill him off via CC.
Just seems that lash has to rely on so many factors to be 100% amazing in a game.
also, 1: why would i pod near something i can get lashed into?
2: why would i be dumb enough to keep my jump units near dodgy terrain? once oblits have been drawn into combat or been given a much higher priority target they cant really help.
Giving assault units free roam of a table.
Of course, this is a huge prob in either a: cityfight, or b: Dense tables.
due to the amount of terrain it may make it hard to avoid being lashed into it.
however, you lash me into something like that and give me a cover save against oblits? much obliged
Ill drop another post in here once i get my game Up to now ive only really played 3 lash armies (around twice each) and havent had any major problems. (ok, dante has no eternal warrior, meaning he gets ID'd by las) But meph has T5, wings, and a force weapon, which gave him enough edge to get the job done.
Other than losing dante (it happens lol) the only real problem ive had is having my chappy removed from the DC unit via las, then my DC running around like headless chickens chasing shadows for the rest of the game.
Just a case of priority against lash.
Remove the units that make it tick to remove the problems.
Lets face it, oblits can DS, meaning you may not have to weather thier fire to start with.
after that though they are too slow to avoid combat, and units can terrain hop for saves to get to them (or simply use packs)
One thing i am thinking about using though is attack bikes.
Speeders are too much of a liability with AV10 (bolter fire, ouch)
But attack bikes should give me mobile fire, and due to thier speed they can in effect hold the prince up (ok, 3 will only holdhim up 2 turns or so, but thats enough)
any quick ideas on attack bikes being of use?
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a side note, its 3:10 am lol, im off to get sleep and ill reply in the morning
Night Lords wrote:Sorry, I meant they are 1.5:1 points wise.
I'm not sure what is getting lost in translation here. Do you mean that they're 3:2 model-wise? Because that's what they are if you have nine Chaos Space Marines versus six Plague Marines, which is almost 1:1 points-wise.
Yea, all Im saying is you can have one and a half CSM for every Plague. Thats all.
So back on topic, the fact that Daemon Princes with the Lash of Submission must be within 24" and line of sight to operate makes it easy to shut them down with shooting and close combat. That's why Sorcerers with Lash of Submission, Familiar, and Warptime are superior, they have the Lash, protection in a transport, and can join a unit for back-up in close combat. Give them a Plasma Pistol and stick them in a unit of Possessed and it's gravy.
Jumping in a little late in the process but I have to say this:
We spent about a whole page comparing 10 tacs to 5 PMs. We should have been comparing 10 tacs to 7 PMs as they are almost equal pts. wise.
Back on track... Is there any point continuing to try and change the mind of the only poster here who thinks that "lash is trash?" I think any player who has read through the CSM codex or faced a lash army will have some respect for a dual lash army. It's not the best list in the world but it's certainly effective, especially when maximized wih oblits and PMs. Even when not using the maximum lash list, lash is a great power and probably the best psychic power to put onn a DP.
I'm not poo-pooing on warptime, but in my experience lash has served me better.
I think someone missed this - no, it doesn't. Walkers are vehicles, they are not affected by lash.
As far as someone saying that it's 6 worst moves in the game.....eh....not really. Lots of units on the board, all of them able to move differently etc. Lots of moves might not be optimum, but not every single bad move is game-breaking.
Then add in the fact that occasionally the psychic test is failed [it's not automatic success you know], or they roll really low on the distance moved - enough to cluster for blast weapons, but those don't auto-hit either and the distance might not be enough to get the unit out of cover. And despite movement, everyone still occasionally misjudges distance, or you flub a difficult terrain roll you couldn't avoid because they didn't move far enough, leaving your units vulnerable....
Chaos did well at 'ard boyz. It didn't OMGWTF DOMINATE at all of them, because of this power. It's a strong ability that needs to be applied correctly to be useful, and countered effectively to not be tossed around by.
augustus5 wrote:Back on track... Is there any point continuing to try and change the mind of the only poster here who thinks that "lash is trash?"
Probably not.
I'd be interested to see how that BA vs Double Lash goes. A lot of it will depend on terrain and what the Lash player does to avoid 10 Drop Pods (which seems a bit crazy at 1500-2000 points). I still think that the lash will hamper one of the main advantages of BAs, which is their mobility. That's just theory hammer, though, as I haven't seen that matchup played. Just a warning though, if a player lashes a unit back away from his stuff and into terrain, you can bet he's not going to shoot at it... he'll let the terrain do the killing while the rest of the army shoots another unit that is still too close for comfort. That and don't forget a Daemon Prince (or two) on the charge should be more than adequate to kill an Assault Squad or Dreads. Especially if they've been lashed away from the bubbles the characters give. It'd be an interesting game to watch for sure though. I'm assuming that it's definately winnable for BA since doesn't GBF run BA competively?
A prince has 5 attacks charging. Hit 3, wound 3. Marines with 9 attacks back should hit with about 5, doing 1-2 wounds, which are perfectly capable of doing a wound through a 3+ save.
After that the prince has 4 attacks. He's hitting with 2 maybe 3, occasionally rolling 1's to wound. The tacticals aren't going anywhere, and may well grind him down to 1 wound or even get lucky and kill him before they're gone. This is assuming NOTHING charges in to help them out, and the prince wasn't shot down 2 wounds before the combat began. Nor that there's any sort of independent character, or even a powerfist or power weapon in the squad.
A 10-man tactical squad can do plenty of damage to a prince. It's not a sure thing, throwing one at them and writing them off. They aren't THAT tough. The amount of times I've only slightly defied the odds and gotten 2 hits that both roll 1's, or 3 hits and do 1 wound, or miss all my attacks, or only hit 2 out of 5......
Princes aren't combat monsters. They're monstrous creatures. They're like a dakkatyrant in close combat, only not as tough and more expensive.
Wow, several hours and we've gotten back on track, wonderful.
@Rico: it's a pychic power in the Chaos Space Marine codex.
____________________
Just a shout out, Lash does not work on vehicles including walkers.
PAVANE of slaanesh is the one that works on vehicles....you know the watered down version of Lash.
"Cause Dreads can dance" was the rationale for that change.....
____________________
@Nurglitch:
It's not just 24", the effective range is that plus movement.
So princes would have 36 effective range.
Las sorcs shooting out of a rhino have 30", while driving a rhino 12 and disembarking 2" with a base out to 0.99" is 38.99".
_______________
In the eternal debate of DP vs. IC, IC's always get the upper hand with regards to personal durability when able to hide in squads. Nothing new there.
I would like to shine a light back on this:
And it's not like the Chaos player spends 150ish points for this, and that's that. He spends 150ish points, gets Lash PLUS he gets a Daemon Prince
For a small price, the daemon prince can screw over a non-mech army. Simple as that.
You bring up full mech, that's true it can't affect AV, but it will make sure whatever that's forced out is dead.
After that it's just a discussion of the merits or shortfalls of Daemon Princes in general.
_________________
I think we may have missed something.
Lash also adds a pinning test.
WIth 6 pinning test without even causing a wound, something will eventually be pinned (provided it's not fearless or the equivalent, and it seems GW is moving towards stubborn rather than just fearless), therefore allowing the rest of the army's resources to focus elsewhere for a turn.
Spellbound wrote:Princes aren't combat monsters. They're monstrous creatures. They're like a dakkatyrant in close combat, only not as tough and more expensive.
I'd agree with that to a point. I was being a little optimistic when I said that one Prince would munch a squad. Yeah, one is not going to WTFpwn a squad on its own, but any losses inflicted beforehand or support from the other Prince would go a long way.
Yeah... I had completely forgot about pinning. It doesn't work against a lot of units, but it never hurts.
Those two different DPs have different applications though. Neither is better than the other.
THe Chrono Nurgle Prince gets buffed defensively and offensively, but pays a bit more for it.
In addition he contributes to the whole army actively later in the game while a Lash Prince can start turn 1.
People weight things differently. THe nurgle prince adds muscle to the list while the lash princes adds utility.
Polonius wrote:First, I'd like know why a power that's good in a 2500pt no-holds barred tournament would be less good when it's just as easily taken at 1850. If somebody could break that film down for me, that'd be great.
As I already said, Lash isn't the good part of that army. In any case, the results from that tournament have little to no bearing on standard play.
Fetterkey, I don't know why I'm bothering, but here goes. Lash is certainly not trash. Lash allows you to control field postion and the tempo of the fight. Last time I checked, a certain Chinese scholar of war had something to say about that. Mech is all well and good, but what happens post turn two or three when the 9 oblits have torn through my transports? I guess that's when you'll tell me to field 5 land raiders. Unless you have a magic recipe for killing 9 oblits in two turns. Beleive me, I'm all ears.
9 Oblits going down can happen.
But that usually ends up being a str 8+ spam army and the player unable to make 2+ saves against Ap3 and up or 4+ cover saves from ap2 and below.
I'm not saying it can't happen. Lascannon spam will end oblits n/p. But who takes LC spam in a tournament environment. IG possibly, but that's about it now a days.
So what if your Daemon Prince is moving away from the unit you're casting Lash of Submission on? Wouldn't it be the case that the effective range is 12"? Or what about if you're moving at a perpendicular angle, so the 'effective range' is just the range. The fact is that 'effective range' just means the range when you move directly towards the target first, which isn't always the best idea.
On the topic of Daemon Princes, I always wondered why people don't talk about Daemon Princes of Nurgle with Nurgle's Rot. Warptime is nice, but without another power for the combo, Nurgle's Rot on a model with a 60mm base is much more destructive.
There's always Vulkan lists with a hvy bias towards fast moving meltas.
Dark Eldar dark lance spam on a Raider spam.
Just some off the top of my head past IG.
My princes are the Unbound Daemonhost model and one based on Deceiver - they came on 40mm bases, so that's what they are.
For the record the standard pewter daemon prince was initially released on a 40mm, so anyone that got them when they came out will also be using smaller-than-dreadnought bases.
@Nurglitch:
I agree it's not always best, but I was just noting that it's not limited to 'just' 24" and can reach out a bt furthur with the movement.
Forgive me if I wasn't precise with that.
As much as going forward can be a bad thing, it can also be a good thing.
As for nurgle's rot. I like it. I think the str 3 puts people off.
In addition, there is an issue with 'proper' Daemon Prince bases.
I've been told that they are supposed to be on termy bases, but Dreadnought bases are what seems to be an option (unless that's totally wrong).
I personally don't use any powers most of the timer, I prefer my Spartan Princes, with just wings.
Just 24" means exactly that: you only get 24" of range in the Shooting phase. That's Bolter range.
About the Daemon Prince bases, I'm pretty sure the Nurgle Daemon Prince was packaged with a 60mm base, though I never actually bought one. The plastic ones that showed up online a while ago, that were rumoured to have their tool broken hence the delay in releasing them (possibly good considering the overwhelming response that they were not acceptable), seemed to have 60mm bases.
Besides, there's less than 1" difference between 40mm and 60mm, though that might be the difference between more hits and less.
The thing about S3 AP- is that:
1. No roll to hit. You get hit by existing within 6" of the Daemon Prince or Sorcerer.
2. No interdiction from close combat. The S3 AP- hit happens whether or not the Prince is in close combat and whether or not the models affected are in close combat - so no wasted Warptime when it's not in combat, and no wasted Lash of Submission or Wind of Chaos when it is in combat.
3. Masses of hits. Seriously, can you imagine having a Daemon Prince armed with a shooting power that can kick out 10, 20, 30 S3 AP- hits? It's the Punisher Cannon of psychic powers, except
I'm pretty sure that this is why Ahriman wasn't given the option of all the psychic powers, and just the non-aligned and Tzeentch powers. Can you imagine Ahriman casting Warptime on himself, then using the Lash of Submission to drag some luckless mob of Orks towards him, and then detonating a Nurgle's Rot?
Ordinarily a Nurgle's Rot on a full mob of 30 Orks is 8 unsaved wounds. With Warptime it would be more like 14 unsaved wounds, on average.
Great, an average roll of 7 means a huge deal with 12" movement plus 6" assault
Yes, it does.
You seem to know what numbers are, and which ones are bigger than others, but you don't seem to know how to add and subtract them.
Let's see how it works...
Standard deployment, you're at least 24" away. Let's assume it's 32". You're not right on the line, he's not right on the line, there's a slight diagonal, etc.
So, normal circumstances... You move 12", run 3.5". Now it's 16.5". Turn two, you move 12", assault 6" and you're in. Great.
Now, with Lash. You move 12", run 3.5" and he backs you up 7". Now you're 23.5" away. Turn two you move 12", run 3.5", and he backs you up 7". Now you're 15" away, and you can assault next turn.
One extra turn is 50% more shooting for you to eat. And if he backs up a mere 4", you need another turn.
And every time he backs you up, he's also backing you up out of the cover you're trying to use to keep the Lascannons off you.
So it's not just you moving across the board slower that walking. It's you doing it while making poor use of cover.
But wait, there's more. Let's say he's got first turn. You're stacked up on the edge of your zone, cause you want to get into CC. He steps up a bit, he's not got range to you, and he pushes you back 7". So now you're starting the game 7" off the edge of your zone, and he's backing away slowly, making you chase him across 36" of table, while Obliteraters do the thing that they're named for.
But, hey, that's not a big deal, right?
How does that help against multiple units charging in?
I covered this. The best way to destroy an assault army is to do it in detail. You Lash half the units, leave them stumbling around the backfield, let the other guys come in. Shoot down those you can, leave the depleted units in CC with Plague Marines, who were MADE to absorb assaults.
Look, this is ridiculous. Have you ever even played against a Lash list?
and most characters are capable of dropping a prince without many problems.
Ok, let me rephrase my last question. Have you ever played 40K?
Most characters can take on a DP without many problems. Name one that costs less than 175 points.
Once again, you cant lash more than 2 units per turn, maybe only 1 if you only take single lash.
Right, good argument. "Lash isn't that great, cause sometimes you don't take Lash!" Huh? No.
If Lash worked on vehicles, it would be broken in the manner you suggest. However, it doesn't, so no big deal.
No, I KNOW! TOTALLY! It's not like you can kill any vehicles with 9 Lascannon shots per turn!
Wait...
Ok, 9 BS4 Lascannons, huh? They aren't T-L, cos they're Oblits. Awesomes.
Hitting on 3+ = 6 hits. Versus a Wave Serpent = down to S8, so 50% go through (1 Glance, 2 Pen) Glance does nothing 2/3 of the time, so...nothing. 2 Pens, with a 33% chance of either destroying the vehicle...so...you don't. On average, a vehicle, such as a Wave Serpent, or AV13+, will easily survive 9 Lascannons. 9 is the number you need to statistically kill a Chimera. So, when you use ALL of your Oblits in one turn to kill JUST ONE of my Transports, because you're too tactically inept to use Multi-Meltas instead of Lascannons, I'll laugh in your face, and hand you your ass. (This is a sweeping generalisation, not a personal attack. See how I removed the person I'm quoting's name to do this. Simples.)
it's definately winnable for BA since doesn't GBF run BA competively?
GBF does run a very competative list, and he knows how to use it well, that may be the only thing i commend him on but yea, BA can run a variety of competative lists capable of doing serious damage, allthough, with the new pups on the way, looks like BA may struggle with them in CC
Lets face it, BA are CC equipped marines at the end of the day.
Pups are tuned for CC with extra rules and options to help them along, and they are much cheaper :(
On the note of lash VS walkers, i was late, but it doesent work, meaning a death company furioso can do serious damage to a lash player, make him ven aswell and its more than likely he will laugh off las shots from oblits.
2 of these stomping around will do nicely.
Also, brings up the thought of an ork kan/dread mob army.
9 kanz, 2 dreads, 2 KFF meks and a swarm of boyz.
Use the kanz and dreads to block LOS to the boyz, making sure they cant get lashed, work your way forward them crush them in combat.
Or, take the non orky route and blast feth out of em with 45 lootas lol
Yay! Another invasion of the "you're all playing 40K wrong" types who probably frequent a certain blog.
There are actually fine points on both sides of this debate. The kicker to me is that Lash represents a very small investment. If it's useless in a given game, no big whoop, as the saying goes. However, against certain armies and builds it'll dominate the game.
IMO the fundamental problem with the arguments from you-know-who and his dittoheads is that they have little external validity. 40K isn't a perfectly rational or competitive environment, and it's never going to be. Thus why would or should one evaluate everything through the lens of a perfect environment?
Reality says every army you face won't be meched up. And if you draw, say, a footslogging Ork horde -- which could still be dangerous against certain armies and builds -- lash is probably going to ensure you cruise to an easy win.
That's the disconnect here. Players feel lash works well because that's the reality they experience on the ground. The dittoheads are probably right that it shouldn't dominate games in theory. But that's only a thought experiment.
gorgon wrote:Yay! Another invasion of the "you're all playing 40K wrong" types who probably frequent a certain blog.
What blog is that?
gorgon wrote:There are actually fine points on both sides of this debate. The kicker to me is that Lash represents a very small investment. If it's useless in a given game, no big whoop, as the saying goes. However, against certain armies and builds it'll dominate the game.
True. Lash forces you to play in a certain way. My point is that the way that Lash forces you to play is a way that's already very effective. If you already go into the game with that mindset and playstyle, Lash is not a serious threat in the same way that other powers and builds can be.
gorgon wrote:IMO the fundamental problem with the arguments from you-know-who and his dittoheads is that they have little external validity. 40K isn't a perfectly rational or competitive environment, and it's never going to be. Thus why would or should one evaluate everything through the lens of a perfect environment?
Sanctjud wrote:It's misleading to say Lash forces you to play a certain way. Many play it as an addition to the army, and not the main purpose of the army.
Sorry for being unclear; Lash forces the army facing it to play a certain way. The Lash army itself is quite strong without the Lash. That's why people need to understand that Lash is not as good as it seems-- they have to get into the proper mindset to fix their target priority and kill the real threats in the Lash army. Sure, you can kill the Lash-- but if you focus on doing so, the rest of the army will likely give you an unpleasant surprise, and that's just what the Lash player wants!
Hitting on 3+ = 6 hits. Versus a Wave Serpent = down to S8, so 50% go through (1 Glance, 2 Pen) Glance does nothing 2/3 of the time, so...nothing. 2 Pens, with a 33% chance of either destroying the vehicle...so...you don't.
So, as a "baseline" you pick one of the most expensive, resilient transports in the game. One that happens to be particularly resistant to Lascannons.
Nice trick.
And problem number two is that even when you stack the deck in your favor, you then have to blow off two Pens like they're nothing. Two Pens have a 56% chance to destroy a vehicle outright. Also, please note that Immobilised is a good enough result. Now the models probably have to get out to impact the game, and now they're Lashable.
So, to be clear here, in order to prove that 9 Lascannons can't kill transports you've chosen one of the most resilient transports in the game, shown that they can kill it most of the time in one turn, and then gotten very pompous and argumentative about how much they can't kill it.
And then said this:
because you're too tactically inept to use Multi-Meltas
Wow, great point, I'll just load my Chaos list up with Muli-Meltas. Hmmm. Can't seem to find any.
This is 5th Edition fad thinking. Yes, Multi-Meltas are great, yes AP1 is very important, but Lascannons didn't cease to exist just because some rules shifted to favor Melta weapons. Your own numbers show you that, but you're too invested in the "what's hot at tournies" buzz to notice.
And hey, guess what? Dual Lash IS still hot at tournies.
GKGM.
Awesome. You just chose the HQ designed to kill Daemons from a list that nobody plays, and you're STILL totally wrong.
Let's run the numbers... How many wounds do they inflict on each other per round?
So, on average, the DP will kill the GKGM in three turns, and will have lost less than half his wounds.
Let's be clear here: We're looking for an IC that can take out a DP "without any problems," and you've managed to find one that, on average, can't even take a DP below half wounds.
There's the argument about how NFW don't ever mention 'instant death', so a rule making you immune to instant death doesn't have any effect.
I'm seeing that as I search the forums...
Obviously it's humorous that this is unclear, not FAQed, and yet Fetterkey thinks he's got a basis to be snide.
Whatever, though. If the GKGM's Nemesis does "kill outright" against a DP, then the GKGM will beat the DP the great majority of the time.
But let's not forget where this argument began... It was suggested that "most" ICs can take on a DP "without problems." I asked for even one, and Fetterkey is patting himself on the back for coming up with one that nobody plays, and is specifically built for killing Daemons, and only wins based on a contentious rule interpretation. The fact is, a DP is a very good value as a CC monster, and will beat up virtually any other IC of equal points value, even with Lash (forget Warptime).
Hitting on 3+ = 6 hits. Versus a Wave Serpent = down to S8, so 50% go through (1 Glance, 2 Pen) Glance does nothing 2/3 of the time, so...nothing. 2 Pens, with a 33% chance of either destroying the vehicle...so...you don't.
So, as a "baseline" you pick one of the most expensive, resilient transports in the game. One that happens to be particularly resistant to Lascannons.
Nice trick.
Yes. I pick the Transport that is the baseline for my main army. The one you(pl) accused the OP of being a fanboi of earlier. Made sense. Unless you are asleep or similarly unobservant, I also stated that a Chimera would succumb to the same firepower.
And problem number two is that even when you stack the deck in your favor, you then have to blow off two Pens like they're nothing. Two Pens have a 56% chance to destroy a vehicle outright. Also, please note that Immobilised is a good enough result. Now the models probably have to get out to impact the game, and now they're Lashable.
Hardly, I didn't write the rules. I chose what army(-ies) I play, sure. I chose the example of the most appropriate Transport, sure. I could have used a LR or Battlewagon, if you prefer, something else that is from the same era, or older, than Lash, Rules-Wise. Since Rhinos and Chimeras have changed points and free stuff since, I didn't consider them fair, especially given everyone knows a devastating sneeze kills a Rhino.
So, to be clear here, in order to prove that 9 Lascannons can't kill transports you've chosen one of the most resilient transports in the game, shown that they can kill it most of the time in one turn, and then gotten very pompous and argumentative about how much they can't kill it.
Sure. If the opponent cannot deploy, and you've deployed ALL 9 Oblits with LOS to the Serpent. I'd tell both those guys to L2P if I saw that in a 'Competitive' game.
And then said this:
because you're too tactically inept to use Multi-Meltas
Wow, great point, I'll just load my Chaos list up with Muli-Meltas. Hmmm. Can't seem to find any.
Obliterators wrote: Hey man, we have the option to be Multi-Meltas! Way cool! Maybe that's why we're awesome? Maybe being Relentless helps, increasing our effective range, especially since we can also Deep Strike...I love being a weird walking armoury of energy weapons.
Chaos Dreadnought wrote: Rawr! Multi-melta really cheap on me? Cheaper than a Loyalist Dread, just because I'm epileptic 1/3 of the time? RAWR!!!
This is 5th Edition fad thinking. Yes, Multi-Meltas are great, yes AP1 is very important, but Lascannons didn't cease to exist just because some rules shifted to favor Melta weapons. Your own numbers show you that, but you're too invested in the "what's hot at tournies" buzz to notice.
Now, I'll save you some time. They're all the same article. Hardly fad then, when I carefully considered what you're saying, and have since rejected it as BS - I was wrong. Won't say that often, so sig it now, kids.
And hey, guess what? Dual Lash IS still hot at tournies.
Necron armies are popular at Tournies. Point being?
Since you obviously love Maths so much, try running the numbers on the same 9 Oblits, versus a Wave Serpent.
Also, as a last point.
What is that? No, it's not a picture of trees, it's a picture of a wood. Firing 675 points of Oblits at ONE Transport vehicle to kill it, using 3 HS Choices to take out something that isn't even on my FoC, just to get your Lash to work?
Should it not be blindly obvious to everyone that this is a troll? He shows all of the classic symptoms..
-Opens with something widely regarded as excellent is in fact terrible
-Disagrees and disregards paragraphs of information with 3 word sentences
-Provides no counter arguments other than 'your wrong'.
he is simply trying to see how long he can spring you along.
I pick the Transport that is the baseline for my main army.
You can insist that the choice makes sense, and you can make up reasons why, but those are justifications.
The line of discussion was whether or not you can kill transports with 9 Lascannons. By ignoring a bunch of other transports that are easily killed by Lascannons, and focusing on one that's not, you're shifting the whole discussion in favor of the point you're making.
You seem to be saying you didn't do it for that reason. That's fine, I don't care why you think things. I care if they're useful things to think. And if the thought experiment is "can 9 Lascannon shots kill transports" then the best way to look at that is to pick an "average" transport.
Hardly, I didn't write the rules.
Hardly what? Hardly worth repeating stuff to you until you pay attention?
Probably.
Let me REPEAT. You said this: "2 Pens, with a 33% chance of either destroying the vehicle...so...you don't."
Even with your own numbers, you're wrong. Two Pens with a 33% chance to destroy is a net 56% chance to destroy the vehicle. If you're going to go binary "do" vs "don't" then .56 rounds up to 1, and that's "do."
I didn't consider them fair, especially given everyone knows a devastating sneeze kills a Rhino.
Right, anything that doesn't support your point isn't fair. Nobody uses Rhinos, Immolators, etc. Right?
Chaos Dreadnought wrote:
Thanks for being so obtuse, it makes you look really smart.
Obviously the Oblits have Multi-Meltas, there are 9 of them in the Lash list already. And obviously if they're in range, they'll be used. The whole "9 Lascannons" thing is because it's a firing mode that can cover the whole table, and then there's no "good luck getting in range with your multi-melta" blabbering.
And Chaos Dreads? Honestly are we talking about taking them for a winning list? Are we really suggesting that not taking them is "tactically inept?"
When I said "can't seem to find any" I was referring to the sort of Multi-Meltas that other lists are using to make things happen. Landspeeders, Land Raiders, Attack Bikes, etc. Things that can get out there and put the weapons to use. An Oblit is only nominally mobile, and while it might get an MM shot at something, it's probably not until it's already unloaded its cargo.
Hardly fad then, when I carefully considered what you're saying, and have since rejected it as BS - I was wrong.
I'm not even sure what you're saying...
So I'll just try to be more clear what I'm saying. I'm NOT saying Melta weapons are bad. They're actually amazing. And I thought they were amazing before 5e. Now that 5e is here, they're pretty much THE weapon you want to be shooting at a tank.
HOWEVER, the problem is when people start thinking that just because they're a fantastic choice, there's no other weapon in the game, no other weapon worth taking, everything else is useless trash. That's fad thinking. It's "got to have the latest" instead of just building a solid list out of the current ruleset.
As I was saying above, there are no especially good delivery mechanisms for Mult-Meltas in the Chaos list, so you have to build around what you do have.
Necron armies are popular at Tournies. Point being?
I didn't say "popular" I said "hot." Meaning they're still doing well, placing well, etc. Necrons are not.
Since you obviously love Maths so much, try running the numbers on the same 9 Oblits, versus a Wave Serpent.
We already did this. By your own math, 56% chance to kill.
Firing 675 points of Oblits at ONE Transport vehicle to kill it, using 3 HS Choices to take out something that isn't even on my FoC, just to get your Lash to work?
You don't seem to know the difference between a thought experiment and a strategy.
Fetterkey seems to think that if a unit is in a transport, it's immune to Lash, as if you can't kill a transport. So, I ask, is it really true that you can't kill a transport? No. It's not. With 9 Lascannons at your disposal, you can kill a transport. Or three.
In Fetterkey-world, there's nothing to Lash, so there's nothing to shoot at besides transports. That's why I'm discussing 9 Lascannons at a transport.
Phryxis wrote:Fetterkey seems to think that if a unit is in a transport, it's immune to Lash, as if you can't kill a transport. So, I ask, is it really true that you can't kill a transport? No. It's not. With 9 Lascannons at your disposal, you can kill a transport. Or three.
9 BS 4 Lascannons vs. AV 11 (Rhino chassis): 6 hits, 4 pens, 1.33333 kills. This, of course, is a pure theory calculation that disregards cover and grouping effects; in actual terms, the lascannons will be significantly worse. Vehicles are hard to kill in 5th edition, Rhino chassis or no Rhino chassis. A properly built army will also have far more pressing targets than Rhinos for you to shoot at, and you'll have to divide your attention.
As for the various people calling me or this thread a troll-- not so. If you want to stick your fingers in your ears and yell "I'M NOT LISTENING," that's fine, but Lash really isn't as good as its reputation would have it. The thing is, Lash used to be a hell of a lot better than it is now. When it came out, transports were far worse, costed more, and were understandably less popular. The more people switch to mech, the worse Lash becomes. And these days, mech is looking better and better, though it is also somewhat overrated. To sum things up, Lash is not a *bad* power, especially for its cost, but it's much worse than when Codex: Chaos just came out, and people are still touting it as if it were great. If Lash is an integral part of your plans, I think it's time to think up some new plans.
Before you said lash is trash but now you say it is okay. I am okay with you flipping on your stance but honestly it really detracts from your position.
You are overrating rhinos in general. They give up easy kill points. Meltas own them and they are toast in close combat. They come with a bolter bolted on. All it takes is a few rolls of the dice to destroy them once they ate immobilized. They are good and indeed better now but they are far from invincible.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also a smart lash player when up against a wise opponent that knows how to counter this psychic power will hold back and use this in the closing stages of the game when the opponent is more vulnerable.
Afrikan Blonde wrote:Before you said lash is trash but now you say it is okay. I am okay with you flipping on your stance but honestly it really detracts from your position.
The very first line of my original post identifies "Lash is Trash" as a hyperbolic statement. To be honest, I called the thread that because I liked the rhyme. I'll restate what I said previously-- Lash is obviously not trash. Chaos Spawn are trash. Lash is just massively overrated.
Afrikan Blonde wrote:You are overrating rhinos in general. They give up easy kill points. Meltas own them and they are toast in close combat. They come with a bolter bolted on. All it takes is a few rolls of the dice to destroy them once they ate immobilized. They are good and indeed better now but they are far from invincible.
I don't think Rhinos are invincible. In fact, I think they're the easiest transport to destroy other than a Trukk or Chimera. However, even an easy to destroy vehicle takes quite a few hits to bring down in 5th Edition, and Rhinos usually aren't exactly high on the target priority list.
That shows the number of killed tanks, the chances of at least that many being killed, and the chances of exactly that many being killed.
So, about a 14% chance to kill 3 Rhinos. Most likely result is 1 killed Rhino at 37%.
No question it's not automatic, no question there are better ways to kill vehicles (Melta, swarming them in CC), but all I've been trying to argue is that 9 Oblits are more than capable of putting units on foot, and vulnerable to Lash.
The more people switch to mech, the worse Lash becomes.
This is true, I'm not at all debating the fact that transports are the primary means to deal with Lash.
Even so, there will be some transports killed, forcing their cargo to walk. Also, because very few transports are "assault transports" the units inside will be vulnerable to Lash if they ever wish to disembark.
Above all, while it's true that transports are more common, there are some armies that don't have them at all (Tyranids, Necrons, Chaos Daemons), there are armies with units that are valuable, but can't use them (Tau, CSM), and then there are the rest, who can use them to varying degrees. So you're right, mech heavy lists like Eldar, Sisters and IG aren't as scared of Lash... But it's not like you can just say "transports, so Lash is done." It's still very strong.
9 Oblits can certainly put units on foot. However, the way I play, those units are already considered dead as soon as their transports go, Lash or no Lash, and they're far from integral to my plans. In fact, if you *don't* manage to Lash and kill them immediately, I consider that to be a bonus. Further, those 9 Oblits aren't going to be killing my dangerous stuff if they're focusing on knocking out transports-- for that matter, they aren't going to be killing infantry!
Hmm, but from the numbers floated around its going to take all of the oblits firing solely at tranports every turn. Against SM all of the oblits will most likely destroy ONE transport the first turn, then in a perfect chaos world those troops get lashed and shot up by the oblits on turn 2. So then on turn 3 a second transport dies..... This isnt very efficient usage of the oblits fire power.
And against eldar it just gets worse, two full turns of all 9 oblits firing at a transport should on average kill the one transport. My, that is a scary thought for the eldar player Im sure.
Yes a good chaos player only uses lash to enhance his list; yes any other player only uses transports to enhance his list. Its mainly going to be a fight with the oblits, the list really shouldnt even be called a lash list, it should be called an oblit spam list.
If its a dual lash list without any oblits is it still scary?
As far as an IC that can handle a lash prince, any farseer with a runes of warding fits the bill nicely; starts at 90 points, can shut down/ wound the prince from anywhere on the table
Oblit fire really only has to knock down 1-2 transports initially. They don't have to kill every single one, just thin the horde enough for your secondary melta fire (CSM, Termicide) to efficiently bust the rest.
If six oblits can crack one transport, the other 3 can plasma cannon the Lash ball. As turns progress and secondary melta takes its toll more Oblits go from transport duty to guy duty and that's where Lash maximizes its effectiveness.
Nobody is going to argue that Oblits, who individually cost more than the transport they're shooting at, are super effective vehicle killers but they don't have to be. If they can bust one open on turn 1, that's often enough to get the ball rolling.
890 points dedicated to killing one transport...great.
You not only need to destroy the rhino/transport, you need to explode it. That means you have a 1/6 chance everytime you roll on the damage chart. Seeing as how you need 3 oblits for plasma cannons, youre left with 6. Are you really going to pen with all 6? Its more like closer to 3. 50% chance now, and a 25% chance if there's cover (which there probably would be).
Then you have a 1/12 chance of failing your lash test, and then you have to roll high enough to move the squad, not only into a nice formation, but out of cover (the crater) as well (so what? you need ~6 inches?)
Then you have to roll scatters for each plasma cannon, which also has that chance of screwing up. Not likely, but add it to the rest of the averages and it really does start to add up.
In the end if everything goes according to plan you kill a couple hundred point squad. This means that everything else is now going to be shooting you the following turn because you spent half your points shooting 1 rhino.
This is also assuming all your oblits/prince is still alive, considering...you know, 50% of your army consists of 10 guys and there really isnt much to shoot at.
Night Lords wrote:
You not only need to destroy the rhino/transport, you need to explode it. That means you have a 1/6 chance everytime you roll on the damage chart. Seeing as how you need 3 oblits for plasma cannons, youre left with 6. Are you really going to pen with all 6? Its more like closer to 3. 50% chance now, and a 25% chance if there's cover (which there probably would be).
No you don't, that's what Lash is for. Immobilization or destruction is "good enough" because you have Lash. They can either sit tight and do nothing or they can get out and get lashed.
Night Lords wrote:
You not only need to destroy the rhino/transport, you need to explode it. That means you have a 1/6 chance everytime you roll on the damage chart. Seeing as how you need 3 oblits for plasma cannons, youre left with 6. Are you really going to pen with all 6? Its more like closer to 3. 50% chance now, and a 25% chance if there's cover (which there probably would be).
No you don't, that's what Lash is for. Immobilization or destruction is "good enough" because you have Lash. They can either sit tight and do nothing or they can get out and get lashed.
Actually, you do. Youve already moved your prince at that point, so if Im forced to disembark, im going to put them behind my rhino where you cant see me. Pretty basic gameplay.
Afrikan Blonde wrote:Exactly and that is an important point that some are missing... Lash forces the opponent to keep their units embarked. That's very powerful.
The point that others are missing is that many players are already keeping all their units embarked, so Lash has little to no effect on them.
Would it be safe to say that while the Lash of Submission is a useful psychic power, it's just one of several options available to players in Codex: Chaos Space Marines?
I wouldn't argue against the Lash of Submission being useful and even powerful, but I would argue against it being the only useful or competitive psychic power in the book.
After all, a psychic power can be over-rated, despite also being good. It's like Obliterators or Plague Marines: they do what they do and they do it well, but there are other competitive lists that have none of those three options, because they do other things and do them well.
In summary, Lash is not a *bad* power, but it is far worse than it was at release, and is one of the most overrated things in the game at present. Lash is still decent, but it's by no means the be-all end-all, and in many cases other powers can be just as effective, if not more so. When facing Lash, don't be intimidated by its inflated reputation, especially if you're all meched up. Keep a cool head, evaluate the enemy units, and focus on the real threat to your army. In all likelihood, that's not going to be the Lash.
Nothing is the end all be all. If that was the point it's the same as saying the sky is blue. In reality lash makes a CSM army much more powerful, even if it's use only occurs late in the game. Pulling an enemy scoring unit off an objective in the last turn of a game can easily be the difference between a win and a loss. It's an abusive psychic power.
Afrikan Blonde wrote:In reality lash makes a CSM army much more powerful, even if it's use only occurs late in the game. Pulling an enemy scoring unit off an objective in the last turn of a game can easily be the difference between a win and a loss. It's an abusive psychic power.
I disagree. It's an option like any other, and can be countered with the correct methods. This idea of Lash as some abusive or broken ultra-ability seriously contributes to the misconceptions that currently surround it.
Afrikan Blonde wrote:Nothing is the end all be all. If that was the point it's the same as saying the sky is blue. In reality lash makes a CSM army much more powerful, even if it's use only occurs late in the game. Pulling an enemy scoring unit off an objective in the last turn of a game can easily be the difference between a win and a loss. It's an abusive psychic power.
I think this is the problem he has, as do I. It doesnt outright make it much more powerful. Youre stating this as a fact and that Lash > Warptime or any other power under any circumstances.
Fact is, it has disadvantages as well. The major one being a T5 prince that is forced to go into range of guns hes most susceptible to. Mech is another disadvantage, as is the power of any other troops that have blast templates relying on it when it dies.
Afrikan Blonde wrote:Nothing is the end all be all. If that was the point it's the same as saying the sky is blue. In reality lash makes a CSM army much more powerful, even if it's use only occurs late in the game. Pulling an enemy scoring unit off an objective in the last turn of a game can easily be the difference between a win and a loss. It's an abusive psychic power.
Not really. The sky isn't blue, it's just the particles blah blah light blah refracted blah blah shorter wavelength blah blue.
More seriously, I think abusive is overstating. It CAN be abused, but, by itself, is not terribly overpowered.
Interestingly, it started out much weaker, before playtesting.
Against SM all of the oblits will most likely destroy ONE transport the first turn
Most likely, yes. But it's also fairly likely they'll kill two...
The idea here isn't that the Oblits should be shooting all day long at transports. The reason this whole "9 Oblits shooting" thing came up, is because there was a suggestion that the Lash armies couldn't deal with transports. My point was to suggest that an army with 9 BS4 Lascannons is not exactly short on transport killing firepower.
I don't like the suggestion that the Lash army is going to be sitting there dumbfounded and powerless as transports drive up and have their way.
Anyway, yes, it's a waste to be blasting at transports all game, but realistically turn 1 tends to be a bit slow, and there's not a ton to shoot at. Those 9 Lascannon shots will quite often kill a transport or two right off the bat.
Sorry, that wasn't very clear. I was suggesting you do the maths for the Multi-Meltas. My bad.
I would, but I don't care, because I already know that Multi-Meltas are fantastic.
Typically they're equal to Lascannons from 12-24", much better inside of 12" and then, obviously, worthless outside 24". This would be a reasonably fair tradeoff, except that they're also usually cheaper than Lascannons.
I've said this many times before, but the greatness of Melta weapons is in the fact that they allow better planning. With a Lascannon, you're just shooting S9, pretty much anywhere on the table, and your chances to kill tanks are nothing special, so you blast away, and maybe you kill something right off, maybe later, maybe never. Hard to plan around. With a Melta weapon you need to get close, and if you get very close you've got a VERY good chance of killing a tank, but if you're willing to do that, you know it's pretty likely to work.
That said, they're not the only weapon in the game. For example, I'd advocate the use of a single Tactical Squad to hold the nearby objective in missions that call for it. That squad should have something with range. I'd suggest a Las/Plas combo.
The point that others are missing is that many players are already keeping all their units embarked, so Lash has little to no effect on them.
This is an exaggeration... I play Mech Sisters a lot, and over time I learned to stop being in a hurry to rush the Rhinos up and get the Sisters out to shoot. That said, if the girls aren't getting out of the Rhino, I'm not winning. They're going to be getting out, and honestly, they're probably going to spend at least half the game on foot.
Units that never leave their transport are not worth much, even when they're min units meant to make a vehicle scoring.
meh - 10 drop pods would be nasty, but doable. Castle up and deny him a clean shot on the oblits from the drop. The rhino screen and terrain will prevent the BA from getting to my oblits and princes on 1. Sure pop all of the rhinos, I don't care. You WILL NOT kill all of the plague marines. On my side of one get ready for a lot of dying as the meltas/plasma guns/mult meltas/plasma cannons hit you.
I play a guy at my local shop with a BA pod army, and it took me 3 or 4 games to figure out how to beat him, but now it is easy. Carefule deployment and placement will prevent you from doing much of anything on turn 1 other than dropping in.
If they all came in on 1 then you would be ok. Half of the army is not enough to stand up to 6 meltas, 4 plasma guns, 9 multimelta/plasma cannon/las cannons and 2 lash princes.
But a perfect example of talking not with each other, but at the alcohol induced hallucination right next to that person.
Fetterkey has yet to write sensible paragraph long answer to anything, define some still undefined main points.
Believes armies stay embarked all the game. Woohoo. Please do that!!! Nothing gives my AT firepower as good firing lanes as not a single infantry model on the board by turn 4. Oh and oops CSM termicides happen to be the worst unit in the game apparently, as they can only mech up for 220 points.
Someone come up with an answer to Dual Lash sucks, because there not another 1750 points to deal with the enemy. Im basing off 2k army list with 2 lash sorcs, which is something i sometimes take. Played it once, wiped the table because 1750 points of CSM troops+Havoks rock face. Played Ahriman+Lash sorc, rocks face because 1625 points of CSM Troops rock face.
Yes Lash sucks, if you forget to pack the rest of your army into the case.
Fetterkey still hasnt told us if he actually plays 40k. I play virtually any major tabletop out there. On paper......since i own the rulebooks, and in his little mind (failure to induce the meaning of dittohead) believes that mathhammer and theorymachine (cookie if he can guess the game) actually are half as good actualy balls to the walls (2nd hint still the same game) gaming at the store.
Voronesh wrote:Believes armies stay embarked all the game. Woohoo. Please do that!!! Nothing gives my AT firepower as good firing lanes as not a single infantry model on the board by turn 4. Oh and oops CSM termicides happen to be the worst unit in the game apparently, as they can only mech up for 220 points.
Several armies can, in fact, stay embarked all game, or at the very least have no non-suicidal reason to disembark their units. Full mech is not required, though it works better for some forces-- others can do fine without it. Tau, for example, generally don't go full mech, and would be weaker if they did. In general, anti-tank units will be able to have good firing lanes anyway if correctly deployed, especially in 5th edition with true line of sight. The advantages that mechanizing your units provides (ignoring/negating most enemy anti-infantry firepower, greatly increasing mobility) are generally superior to the disadvantages that doing so incurs (points/KP increase).
Termicide units are an interesting trick that can prove effective against some forces, but are far from a reliable choice. Positional defenses aside, they can be hard countered for <50 points and are not exactly a safe bet even under favorable circumstances. They aren't bad, but they aren't great.
Voronesh wrote:Fetterkey still hasnt told us if he actually plays 40k.
